import pandas as pd

data_dict = {'num': [1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35, 36, 37, 38, 39, 40, 41, 42, 43, 44, 45, 46, 47, 48, 49, 50, 51, 52, 53, 54, 55, 56, 57, 58, 59, 60, 61, 62, 63, 64, 65, 66, 67, 68, 69, 70, 71, 72, 73, 74, 75, 76, 77, 78, 79, 80, 81, 82, 83, 84, 85, 86, 87, 88, 89, 90, 91, 92, 93, 94, 95, 96, 97, 98, 99, 100, 101, 102, 103, 104, 105, 106, 107, 108, 109, 110, 111, 112, 113, 114, 115, 116, 117, 118, 119, 120, 121, 122, 123, 124, 125, 126, 127, 128, 129, 130, 131, 132, 133, 134, 135, 136, 137, 138, 139, 140, 141, 142, 143, 144, 145, 146, 147, 148, 149, 150, 151, 152, 153, 154, 155, 156, 157, 158, 159, 160, 161, 162, 163, 164, 165, 166, 167, 168, 169, 170, 171, 172, 173, 174, 175, 176, 177, 178, 179, 180, 181, 182, 183, 184, 185, 186, 187, 188, 189, 190, 191, 192, 193, 194, 195, 196, 197, 198, 199, 200, 201, 202, 203, 204, 205, 206, 207, 208, 209, 210, 211, 212, 213, 214, 215, 216, 217, 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10736, 10737, 10738, 10739, 10740, 10741, 10742, 10743, 10744, 10745, 10746, 10747, 10748, 10749, 10750, 10751, 10752, 10753, 10754, 10755, 10756, 10757, 10758, 10759, 10760, 10762, 10763, 10764, 10765, 10766, 10767, 10768, 10769, 10770, 10771, 10772, 10774, 10775, 10776, 10777, 10778, 10779, 10780, 10781, 10782, 10783, 10785, 10786, 10787, 10788, 10789, 10790, 10791, 10792, 10793, 10794, 10795, 10796, 10797, 10798, 10799, 10800, 10801, 10802, 10803, 10804, 10805, 10806, 10807, 10808, 10809, 10810, 10811, 10812, 10813, 10814, 10815, 10816, 10817, 10818, 10819, 10820, 10821, 10822, 10823, 10824, 10825, 10826, 10828, 10829, 10830, 10831, 10832, 10833, 10834, 10835, 10836, 10837, 10838, 10839, 10840, 10841, 10842, 10843, 10844, 10845, 10846, 10847, 10849, 10850, 10851, 10852, 10853, 10854, 10855, 10856, 10857, 10858, 10859, 10860, 10861, 10862, 10863, 10864, 10865, 10866, 10867, 10868, 10869, 10870, 10871, 10872, 10873, 10874, 10875, 10876, 10877, 10878, 10879, 10880, 10881, 10882, 10883, 10884, 10885, 10886, 10887, 10888, 10889, 10890, 10891, 10892, 10893, 10894, 10895, 10896, 10897, 10898, 10899, 10900, 10901, 10902, 10903, 10904, 10905, 10906, 10907, 10908, 10909, 10910, 10911, 10912, 10913, 10914, 10915, 10916, 10917, 10918, 10919, 10920, 10921, 10922, 10923, 10924, 10925, 10926, 10927, 10929, 10930, 10931, 10932, 10934, 10935, 10936, 10937, 10938, 10939, 10940, 10941, 10942, 10943, 10944, 10945, 10946, 10947, 10948, 10949, 10950, 10951, 10952, 10953, 10954, 10955, 10957, 10958, 10959, 10960, 10961, 10962, 10963, 10964, 10965, 10966, 10967, 10968, 10969, 10970, 10971, 10973, 10974, 10975, 10976, 10977, 10978, 10979, 10980], 'text': ['But mah Jailbreak', 'I know who need 11.3 when you have a jailbreak', 'Especially since i can get the battery info with the jailbreak anyways :)', 'Went in yesterday for my battery draining fast. Got lecturer by the college student genius about how using my phone will use the battery. Find out today about this deal. /fml', 'Does anyone know if Apple will have their Authorized Service Centers provide this deal as well?  I live in South Korea and their are no official stores in the country.', '[Direct link to Apple’s statement](https://www.apple.com/iphone-battery-and-performance/)\n\n> # A Message to Our Customers about iPhone Batteries and Performance\n\n>We’ve been hearing feedback from our customers about the way we handle performance for iPhones with older batteries and how we have communicated that process. We know that some of you feel Apple has let you down. We apologize. There’s been a lot of misunderstanding about this issue, so we would like to clarify and let you know about some changes we’re making.\nFirst and foremost, we have never — and would never — do anything to intentionally shorten the life of any Apple product, or degrade the user experience to drive customer upgrades. Our goal has always been to create products that our customers love, and making iPhones last as long as possible is an important part of that.\n\n> # How batteries age\n> All rechargeable batteries are consumable components that become less effective as they chemically age and their ability to hold a charge diminishes. Time and the number of times a battery has been charged are not the only factors in this chemical aging process.\nDevice use also affects the performance of a battery over its lifespan. For example, leaving or charging a battery in a hot environment can cause a battery to age faster. These are characteristics of battery chemistry, common to lithium-ion batteries across the industry.\nA chemically aged battery also becomes less capable of delivering peak energy loads, especially in a low state of charge, which may result in a device unexpectedly shutting itself down in some situations.\nTo help customers learn more about iPhone’s rechargeable battery and the factors affecting its performance, we’ve posted a new support article, iPhone Battery and Performance.\nIt should go without saying that we think sudden, unexpected shutdowns are unacceptable. We don’t want any of our users to lose a call, miss taking a picture or have any other part of their iPhone experience interrupted if we can avoid it.\n\n> # Preventing unexpected shutdowns\n> About a year ago in iOS 10.2.1, we delivered a software update that improves power management during peak workloads to avoid unexpected shutdowns on iPhone 6, iPhone 6 Plus, iPhone 6s, iPhone 6s Plus, and iPhone SE. With the update, iOS dynamically manages the maximum performance of some system components when needed to prevent a shutdown. While these changes may go unnoticed, in some cases users may experience longer launch times for apps and other reductions in performance.\nCustomer response to iOS 10.2.1 was positive, as it successfully reduced the occurrence of unexpected shutdowns. We recently extended the same support for iPhone 7 and iPhone 7 Plus in iOS 11.2.\nOf course, when a chemically aged battery is replaced with a new one, iPhone performance returns to normal when operated in standard conditions.\n\n> # Recent user feedback\n> Over the course of this fall, we began to receive feedback from some users who were seeing slower performance in certain situations. Based on our experience, we initially thought this was due to a combination of two factors: a normal, temporary performance impact when upgrading the operating system as iPhone installs new software and updates apps, and minor bugs in the initial release which have since been fixed.\nWe now believe that another contributor to these user experiences is the continued chemical aging of the batteries in older iPhone 6 and iPhone 6s devices, many of which are still running on their original batteries.\n\n> # Addressing customer concerns\n> We’ve always wanted our customers to be able to use their iPhones as long as possible. We’re proud that Apple products are known for their durability, and for holding their value longer than our competitors’ devices.\nTo address our customers’ concerns, to recognize their loyalty and to regain the trust of anyone who may have doubted Apple’s intentions, we’ve decided to take the following steps:\n\n> * Apple is reducing the price of an out-of-warranty iPhone battery replacement by $50 — from $79 to $29 — for anyone with an iPhone 6 or later whose battery needs to be replaced, starting in late January and available worldwide through December 2018. Details will be provided soon on apple.com.\n\n> * Early in 2018, we will issue an iOS software update with new features that give users more visibility into the health of their iPhone’s battery, so they can see for themselves if its condition is affecting performance.\n\n> * As always, our team is working on ways to make the user experience even better, including improving how we manage performance and avoid unexpected shutdowns as batteries age.\n\n> At Apple, our customers’ trust means everything to us. We will never stop working to earn and maintain it. We are able to do the work we love only because of your faith and support — and we will never forget that or take it for granted.', 'Will Geekbench be acknowledged / thanked / grudgingly thanked  by Apple?\n\nRead somewhere that Geekbench will release features to help iPhone users see the throttling / battery condition...\n\nDo you think Apple wishes they could expel Geekbench from their app store?', "We're so sorry. Thank you for your money.", 'When the ios updated and batteries started going down fast like crazy on my iphone 7 plus i went to the apple store and could see if i could get my battery replaced for 100 bucks (canadian dollar) and they said mine was at around 90% capacity and wouldnt let me change my battery even if i said i was willing to pay for it.\n\nI hope they let me pay to replace the battery this time lol', "I don't understand how people are not outraged at all phone manufacturers by not having removable batteries. I get the fast charge, but the phone is a paper weight in 1.5 years. It doesn't hold a charge. I died a little inside when Samsung did this shit. My S7 wont make it through 1/4 of the day if I have to use it for anything.  ", "Let me get this straight - you can replace the entire battery for 29 dollars, but I've got pay 35 for a wire to charge that battery? ", "So wait, they say it's only in 6 and 6s, and iOS 10.3? Why/how have the older phones and iOS versions had this ~same problem then?", 'It’s absolutely amazing the difference a new battery makes, instantly.  I ordered a $26 replacement kit, and did it myself. An hour of youtube tutorials and praying later, my phone is as good as new.', 'Will the $29 battery stop my phone from being slowed down, or will they offer a new battery and continue doing their thing regardless?', 'Is there a way to assess % of original battery capacity from a menu?', 'Will definitely take them up on this. The controversy here is that the limitations of lithium batteries forced Apple to choose between random shutdowns and performance throttling. Giving the user more info about their battery goes a long way towards making up for the fact that they forced this choice on us without telling anyone.', '"Sorry for fucking up your shit.  Now please give us $29"', 'is this gonna be applicable to all countries? ', 'I’m just coming here to comment that I did replace my iPhone 6 because of the battery problems. \n\nHowever my phone both got slow AND still had unexpected shutdowns. I can tell you from experience, those shutdowns were WAY more frustrating than slower speed. \n\nThe issue here is not their solution, it’s their lack of communication about it. Reducing a phone’s speed to prevent sudden shutdowns is perfectly reasonable. If you don’t think so, you haven’t experienced constant unexpected shutdowns. \n\nI know this is going to be unpopular right now, but I think people don’t realize just how mind blowingly annoying it is when your phone might stop working at any moment for no reason.', 'Sorry guys !  Can we have more money now ?', 'While this reasoning makes sense, the reality is that millions of iphone users had good performance the day before they updated to iOS 10.2.1 — and then their phones were suddenly turned to shit. \n\nSo at the very least, Apple’s implementation was too aggressive. I’m still not convinced they had the users’ best interest in mind.\n\nThat said, as a iPhone 6 user myself, $29 seems like a very cheap way to squeze out a few more years of use.\n\nEdit: corrected iOS version. Thanks!', 'The batteries for the iPhone 6s cost apple $4.75 a piece. Maybe even less, now.\n\nSo Apples "I\'m sorry. Our batteries only work well enough for about a year" is to only earn *some*  money on replacements instead of a ridiculous amount of money for the next year.\n\nWhat a shit show. ', "Ok, ok...  You got us.  We're sorry.  Tell ya what.  Gimme a few more bucks and we'll take care of it for you, but you better do it quick, gotta throw down the cash in my hand before a year is over, so... tick tock!  ATMs at the front of the door.  \n\n- Love, your friend... Apple.", "As a guy with an iPhone 6 with battery issues for a while (it's been dying like crazy) who has been stalling about getting it fixed for the money.... WOOOOOOOHOOOOOOO!!!", 'How about $29 phones', 'Just a way to avoid further lawsuits. ', 'Sorrt we got caught. Here is a new battery. You need to pay us $29 for it.', "Yes we screwed you but instead of doing anything I guess we'll replace the battery at a price that sounds reasonable to you assholes. \n\nPS love my android", 'So if I got a battery replacement yesterday, am I just screwed?', "Smart move on Apple's part. Although they should have considered being more transparent initially, it's obvious they were doing this to extend the functional life of their phones. If I had an iPhone, I'd take them up on it.", "This is honestly a sound engineering approach: I've routinely managed to get my laptop batteries to survive 450+ charge cycles... but there comes a point when I'll be in the middle of something and the laptop just turns off because of exactly what Apple is citing here: the battery is old, it has been worked hard, and can't keep up with the demands of the system any longer. It's never fun when that happens, and I'd much prefer as an end-user that the task I'm trying to accomplish simply took a little longer than to have my device completely turn off.\n\nPeople whining about how this is so terrible simply don't understand that there are limits to the physics / chemistry going on in your device, and when those limits are pushed, bad things happen.\n\nStuff wears out.  Get over it.", 'Their initial handling may not have been perfect, but this thread is a prime example that some people are never happy, or never actually read the new statement. "Because Apple."\n\nThey also posted a [new KB article](https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT208387) which reiterates a bit of this statement and lets consumers know what to look out for if performance is throttled.', '"Apologizes." Says "we didn\'t throttle, we just \'managed,\'" makes it about the batteries when people complained about speeds, and then offers you a temporary coupon as a "solution."', "And people will forget, won't care or whatever and will continue buying their phones anyway. ", 'So they still make money from this by selling batteries.', 'Not even free battery replacements with all this bad PR? Apple has really made their customers into servile little bitches who take it up the ass and pay for the service.', "I wonder if this extends to their Watch line.  I have a stainless steel 42mm iWatch that I wore for just over a year and then the battery bloated and the face popped off.  They quoted me around $79.  Maybe they'll match the $29 price they are now offering for the iPhone battery.", "Why is this sort of thing so acceptable in US companies? Shouldn't it be illegal to profit off your intentional crippling of your own product?", "Well, sounds like I'll be going to get a new battery towards the end of 2018 whether I need one or not. Just for the simple fact that I can extend the life of my 7 plus for $29. ", 'Oh thanks Apple, thanks for digging so deep in to your meager pockets to offer up this price reduction on one of your massively inflated products. Sod off.', 'Should be free to replace honestly. ', 'Sorry we got caught', 'Pay $29 To combat planned obselenece. Fuck capitalism lol', "So I've experienced a dramatic slowdown in my iPhone 6 and was pretty sure it was this throttle. I also remember my iPhone 5 shutting down at 20÷ after it was 2 years old. So I want to be outraged at the throttling, but I believe their reasoning. ", "Aww you guys didn't get a new iPhone out of it. I'm sure the consolation won't stop people from continuing to bitch about this, rather than just not buying Apple products anymore like a rational person.", 'Eh, "drama," "most widescale retail fraud in world history," same diff, right?', '/r/LateStageCapitalism', "We are sorry we got caught. Let us make it up to you by charging you for a new battery. It doesn't matter what we do because people will still buy our product. ", 'Oh nice, apple will accept more money from you', 'So let me get this right, Apple gets caught purposefully fucking up people\'s phones, gets sued by Europe, and they STILL want you to pay for their product to fix what they broke?\n\nThat\'s like if a car manufacturer did a recall on a known defective part and wanted you to pay for the recall.\n\nEdit:  to the people already\n downvoting me, you need to understand that apples philosophy doesn\'t work.  You can\'t appease everybody.  \n\nWhat I mean by that is they need to stop trying to update their old iPhone\'s with new software.  No matter how many updates and fixes you release, old hardware just isn\'t good enough to run new software.\n\nThat would be like having a Pentium 4 and trying to release new updates for assassins creed origins to make it work with a 15 year old processor.\n\nAt some point you need to update your hardware.\n\nThis is why android phones stop updating to new operating systems at some point, because the manufacturers of android phones realize that at some point the old hardware just can\'t do what the new operating systems require.  \n\nThey aren\'t doing it to force you into a new phone, but at least your old phone will have an OS that works properly for the older hardware you currently own.\n\nDouble edit with another analogy:  if your car manufacturer installed a light that causes your vehicle to die while driving down the highway, they\'d issue a recall on that part.\n\nThe difference is they wouldn\'t charge you for that part because they messed it up and installed bad parts.\n\nImagine if every vehicle recall allowed you to go to the dealership to pay them a "discounted" rate because they know they installed bad parts in your new car.\n\nThat\'s exactly what Apple is doing.', 'Hahaha we got caught doing shady shit well I will offer to piss in your mouth for you catching me. ', "It has been some time since I was involved heavily with lithium cells (and I've never dealt with this type of thing either), however this explanation isn't really sitting that well with me. I'm assuming that Apple is using either LCO or NCA as their cathode, which have a maximum discharge rate of about 1C. For comparison, since I don't have an iPhone,  my LG G6 has a maximum discharge rate of around 1800mA on a 3300mAh cell (when running a benchmark), for simplicity's sake I'll call this 0.5C. This means that the peak demand is about half the capability.\n\nThis doesn't take into account the impedance rising and the capacity falling (i.e. what the expert in the article was talking about), but I'm having a hard time getting my head around a device that is only a year and a bit old (iPhone 7) potentially having such a degraded battery that it cannot support full load when it started with a pretty reasonable max discharge for its battery chemistry.", 'Hahahahahaha\n\n\nSorry you caught us!', '"Hey, come to our store to drop another $29 to fix the mess we created, and while you\'re there let us persuade you to buy this $999 new model we just introduced that really, really fixes the mess we created.', "Well they are getting a [$47 billion](http://fortune.com/2017/12/06/apple-could-see-nearly-47-billion-in-benefits-from-the-republican-tax-reform/) (with a B)  tax break from the Republican tax bill. How gracious and generous of Apple. It's already trickling down!", "Do people realise that they're getting ripped off by Apple?  Do they care?  The snob value is at play here but surely the shine is going off the Apple.  (don't call me surely!).", 'Having a bit of a moment, when they say replace iPhone 6 or later would that mean 5s/5 or 6S/7? ', 'I\'m sorry, but this is such a non-story it\'s crazy. I think logical people understand by now that it\'s a valid action to take. I have huge issues with the arguments people are making against it.\n\n1) It doesn\'t make you need to buy a new phone. It literally is in place to prolong the use of your phone. If the battery is in bad enough condition to effect your performance than you would either have a) a phone that would die exponentially faster and even have random shutdowns or b) a phone that clocks down to extend the use of life.\n\n2) It does not need to be an option for the user to turn off, as it\'s not a feature, it\'s explicitly how the manufacturer wants their product to behave. It\'s not up to us consumers how a product\'s logic behaves, and seeing as this doesn\'t violate any consumer rights, that right will always remain with the company.\n\n3) Every SINGLE piece of technology with CPU uses power draw methods to determine CPU clock speed in one from or another. A lot is retroactive, this is proactive, but it\'s not Apples specific.\n\n4) The analogy of if a car company would do this and how outraged we would be is plain garbage. They already do! Put bad gas in your car, and it will "clock down" it\'s engine output. So please STOP with this analogy, you\'re wrong.\n\n5) Out of all technological advancements we have made, batteries are arguably the slowest and furthest behind, we work around it.\n\nNow, that we "got" this discount of batteries, can we replace our batteries and move on. This is ridiculous.', '"We\'re sorry that you caught us."  --Tim Crook', "They should be doing this **for free**, if you are the original owner and can provide a receipt, at least. Now they're blatantly charging people money for their planned obsolescence. Wow.", "Overpriced trash, haven't owned an iPhone since the 3gs.", "Sorry (we got caught).\n\nI mean does anyone believe this isn't the case? If it wasn't, they would've let the users know about what happens and why their iPhones seem to slowdown with new iOS updates like clockwork.", 'Hmmmm. Had my 6+ battery replaced for 25. Just saying. ', 'Apple crisis response: "How can we use this bad PR to get people to still pay us money."', 'Fuck Apple right in their dirty poo holes. ', 'I still cannot understand WHY Apple iPhones do not allow their batteries to be replaced by the CUSTOMER?', 'Apple has now officially categorized batteries as "consumables". So, does this mean they are going to finally make it so we can easily replace our own batteries. I\'m thinking ... **no**.', 'Wow. The con continues. "We tried to fuck you into buying a new product. Here is a slightly cheaper version of our expensive ripoff battery. Everything is okay now, right?" Such bullshit. ', 'My reasons for being an android user continues to grow :) ', '"We\'re sorry we got caught, here\'s a tiny fraction of our profits." - all corporate apologies', "I genuinely don't understand why Apple chooses to use such inadequate batteries in their phones. My Android phone isn't a top tier model, but while having a screen bigger than the one on an iPhone 8, it's lighter, and it has literally twice the battery capacity. In a year of use, I have never come close to draining its battery.\n\nIt just doesn't make sense to me that hey have focused so much on making the phone slim and stylish that its performance suffers so badly", 'This is not enough, its not enough at all.', 'so they pull a bunch of planned obsolescence late stage capitalism bullshit which fucks over all their customers...and then their apology is that you can pay them more money if you want to fix it?  Meanwhile they have billions in cash on hand just sitting around that is not being taxed to pay for all the services they use to sell and distribute their products.\n\nApple, Amazon, and a bunch of other companies are basically the robber barons of the modern gilded age.  I suggest no one buy another one of their phones until they change pretty much their entire business model, but because I know that wont happen you could at least just stop pretending they make good products and start talking about them like the trash they are.  Maybe once their brand loses its mystical sparklyness they will be forced to sell products at more reasonable prices.', "Hey, we slow down your phones. Also our batteries suck. We're still gonna take an extra $30 from you though", 'People are never satisfied.\n', '“Oh gee sorry about fucking you guys, here let us fuck you guys even more for a limited time only.”  \n\n', "iPhone battery capacity is extremely small compared to Android phones. So loss of performance in these batteries is a bigger issue on iPhone since Android still has spare capacity even after degradation. You can be like Samsung and take this a step further with improving the battery tech to minimize battery wear to merely 5% in the two years. \n\nApple is also not replacing all phones battery who are experiencing throttling. They are only accepting batteries that fail their test which is well after throttling. So you could have a slower phone but it's not bad enough that Apple will fix it for you. Then why throttle it to begin with?", '"Sorry for sabotaging your phone. To make up for it you may pay us to partially fix it!"', 'So this is a huge crock of bullshit right?\n\nThe battery thing is just this gigantic smoke screen of a lie to hide that they purposely degrade performance on a per-update basis just to force consumers to think their device is "out dated and obselete" when it\'s really not.\n\nI sincerely hope people aren\'t buying into this bullshit. This is something I always knew they did but just couldn\'t prove it. It\'s completely fucked up and they need to be raked over the coals for it.\n\nTo all iOS device owners (I stopped buying iOS after THIS very thing made my iPad mini degrade)...how does it feel to know they\'re intentionally degrading your device\'s performance to force you into (eventually) buying a new one? That\'s like a car manufacturer designing your engine to fail after 10 years or an architect trying to make a house that collapses after "x" amount of years.\n\nEdit: In what world is is this a controversial statement?! Good lord. The sheeple here are amazing.\n\nI\'ve said this same shit many many times. If you have the hours to waste going through my history, you can find it. And I always get flack about it. I KNEW Apple was degrading platforms behind the scenes for years. I just could never prove it. When it happened with my iPad mini, my gf\'s regular iPad, and my touch, I knew something was up. It\'s absolutely NOT just battery life they fuck with. The entire device starts performing slower and slower. It\'s crap, and if you\'re down voting this shit, you\'re either being willingly ignorant or you\'re a fuckin Apple shill. Period.', 'If you have a mac, download coconut battery, works with any idevice with a battery', 'Anyone know if this applies in Canada?', 'This reminds me of the Office episode "Scott\'s tots" where Michael promises to pay for collage tuition for kids then only gives them laptop batteries. ', 'Well, LA DE FRICKIN DA!', 'Think different', '"We\'re sorry. Give us 29 dollars for being sorry". Good old Apple.', 'So... is this a good time to buy a used iPhone?', 'Shit I just replaced my battery last week! Can I get reimbursed?', 'If people think that planned obsolescence is exclusive to Apple they are delusional. I learnt about it in my 1st Semester of Business at university.\n\nSure Apple should have been way more transparent about how your diminished battery is affecting your device. But I think this is being blown out of proportion. ', 'It’s amazing how they never told us anything like this until someone called them out for if. Cooperate America at its finest. ', '"sorry we\'ve been slowing down your phones. if you give us money we\'ll put it back to the speed it was"  wtf.  how about not designing phones where the slightest update pushes it beyond the power limits.', 'Are older iPads affected by this too? How come the IOS update only impacted iPhones?', "This doesn't really do anything. They'll continue to do it with their phones going forward so this is just a patch-y reparation for the current users. If they can not only add battery monitoring features, but some battery options in future, then I'll care. I don't see how something couldn't be part of an alternative battery saving mode, since the current one restricts background usage, another could restrict peak usage.", 'What’s about uk? Can someone show me the link?', 'Clever from Apple to sell their old batteries', "This is ridiculous because Apple will only 'Replace' your battery if you have a 100% intact phone, even the slightest scratch to the screen and they won't replace the battery without charging you £150+ to replace the screen beforehand to get to the dead battery.", 'Is there a (free) way to find out if my phone is working slower than it should because of the battery? I think you can buy the Geekbench and then compare the score on a website but shouldn’t there be an easier way?', 'For a year... Wow. Thanks Apple', '"Whelp they caught us. Here toss these idiots this. Bwahahahaha!"', 'Apple in the middle of a controversy: give us more money', 'Ooh $29 battery replacements for a year, thanks Apple!\nFuck sake', 'I should send in my old iPhone 3G', 'ITT: more salt than Crait', "I have been using the iPhones exclusively since they came out, but I am looking into switching to something else. I'm wondering how easy of a transition it is, and if somebody can recommend a phone that I won't need to upgrade every two years.", 'Literally just replaced my 5c.  Son of a whore!', 'u/sexy_couch_potato you should deff take advantage of this!', 'Remindme! December 1, 2018 "Get my iPhone 6s Plus battery replaced."', 'Is this in the UK as well?', "So if i have an iPhone 5 S and its battery is gone to shit, it's no good?", 'oh wowzers a whole year?', 'That’s a link about MacBook batteries. Your entire point is based on a false premise.', "Sad world we live in where there must be major drama and backlash for the company to do the right thing and start acting on behalf of consumers. For a giant like Apple you'd think they would offer FREE battery replacements at this point not make you pay $29.", "When it's not our fault the logical way to fix it is to make us pay", "It makes me wonder how accurate the claim that recharging iPhone batteries at any time doesn't hurt your battery performance. ", 'what does one have to do with the other?', "The cynic in me just sees this as as an opportunity to make money. Pretty sure most people wouldn't have realised their battery, then Apple declares you can restore your speed for just $29.99!", 'A month ago I attempted a battery replacement on a 6 due to this problem. Ended up burning my phone in the process. Think they will fix fire damage for cheap?', ">A lot of people already believed that Apple slowed downtheir iphones, and this wave of news was a big data point confirming that for them. It's going to be a difficult road back. \n\n*6 months later*\n\n>iPhone XI is the fastest selling iPhone of all time! The new battery management system Apple touted will change everything you know about smartphones!\n\n", 'Hey apple, you trying to cut prices to make up for the fact that Tim Cook is a fucker? Go fuck yourself', "That's like Burger King deliberately leaving the cheese off your burger, then asking if you want fries when you come to complain. ", 'https://imgflip.com/i/21u2kz', 'Already upgraded to iPhone 8 last month because of this. Really disappointed.', 'So because of their intentional design, we get "Oh well if you\'re not happy that we fucked you over, we can fuck you over for an extra 29 dollars!"', 'Now I’m fucking pissed I was pissed when I had to get a 7 to replace my 6s that had died within 8 hours being off the charger with very minimal use. (Full charge before work, 0% after.) I knew it was something going on, because everyone else’s new iPhones would still have like 70% or more left by the end of work. ', 'My iPad 2 still has incredible battery life. I can watch hours and hours of videos on a single charge. Unfortunately, that is all it can do. Almost all other apps are slow or crash all the time. They are slowing down their devices and it isn’t just because of the battery. ', "This is not enough. When people discovered the throttling issue, they went to the Apple store to get their battery replaced. They were told that it was fine and they would not do it. So according to the OS, the battery is worn enough to slow it down, but now enough to get it replaced? That's why people are saying this is planned obsolescence. Because it looks and smells like it. On top of all that, Apple never told their employees this was happening. So they were unintentionally pushing new phones onto customers who just really needed a battery change. ", 'Excellent, well done', 'I hope these lawsuits irreversibly hurt Apple. Nearly all of their modern success is based on the iPhone and quite possibly spurred by this humongous lie. This kind of behavior should not be tolerated.', 'So are they NOT slowing down phones anymore or is that still happening while still selling you batteries?', 'Why would anyone even think 29$ battery replacements will do anything? It doesn\'t change the fact they did it, doesn\'t change the fact they have planned obsolescence, still use Chinese slave labor. I mean Jesus Christ what does it take for you people to finally say "Fuck you, Apple, no more money for you!"', 'They started slowing down the iPhone 4 and 4s and are totally trying to minimize the situation. If not they would have been transparent, oh and this line about helping my battery.  Hey genius how about you make it so the consumer can replace the battery themselves?', "Has anyone checked if Samsung is doing this?  My S6 doesn't feel anywhere near as fast as it used to be.", 'No matter how many times people are warned, the most popular passwords are\xa0still terrible. They make it easy for hackers to steal identities and are the main source of data loss. It’s one of the reasons why Microsoft has called for the password to be killed off.\n\nThe Redmond firm\xa0says\xa0passwords are a relic from the early days of computing that have outlived their usefulness. And that having to change them regularly to another hard-to-remember string of text isn’t the best or most secure solution.\n\nleave apple read this...\n\nhttp://geekbench.in/hello-windows-microsoft-to-kill-passwords/', "T,IL\n\n1) Your battery must first qualify, according to their diagnostician\n2) They currently are out of batteries\n3) You'll have to wait and come back again", 'I reread it. I still hold the same opinion.', 'lol at all the people congratulating Apple for "Doing the right thing"\n\nThe only, and I mean ONLY reason they done this was because of the ever growing backlash of being caught. They would have never done this otherwise and only doing it now to save face. This is just one example of many that they\'ve tried to pull shit and then done a 180 once caught. ', 'This is why you use Android products not Apple. ', '>"iPhone owners have long believed Apple artificially slows down older phones to drive new sales. But the new information from Apple about performance management poured gasoline on that long-simmering frustration, leading to\xa0a lot of bad press and multiple lawsuits. What made it all seem worse is that the scope of the performance penalty only came to light after being\xa0discovered by a developer\xa0instead of being clearly disclosed by Apple."\n\n\n', 'Weaksauce. Suk it Apple. ', 'And they still make 7x profit from each battery.LOL.', "*smugly glances at my gorgeous Galaxy S8 which I haven't charged for two days*", "Oh boy I get to pay for something because they're sorry? Woooowwww so generous.", '[insert south park clip]\n\n"We\'re sorry we got caught intentionally slowing down your $1000 device. As restitution, you can pay us a discounted fee to fix what ***we*** did to ***your*** device. But only for a year."', 'Ok so I have a question. My iPhone 6 is a mess, my battery will not survive unless it is plugged into the charger. When at 100% and my phone is not on the charger or being used it takes only 3 hours to reach 20%. \n\nToday I called My cell phone provider who set me up with Apple. I do not wish to upgrade my phone. I want my battery replaced. They said I would have to pay 89.99 for it. Does this mean that it will only be $29 now? \n\nI pay $112/month for a phone bought in May of 2015 and I can not use it unless it’s on the charger. If they are the cause of the battery not working properly they should replace it, no? \n\nAlso, because my phone screen has a 1inch crack it is voided in their eyes and they will not send a refurbished phone. ', 'I mean, I’ve had my 6+ for 3 years I think now. I don’t notice any slowness that ruins my experience. ', 'Of course they do, it will affect the 10,000 other ways they are fucking you.', 'Which is still a huge profit for them...', "I don't understand why people are still so loyal to Apple. Haven't they done enough to you that you're ready to leave? C'mon, you're better than this, you know you deserve better. ", 'So they made my phone slower to prevent battery decomposition, and than offer me a discount on a new battery to apologize the slowing?? Just let me change my battery when it will be old, i want my phone back!', "So in other words Apple try and play this down as much as possible to help themselves in future lawsuits, whilst then making money on the $29 battery replacements.\n\nWhat about the people who were persuaded to buy a new phone in store because of this issue? Where's their compensation?\n\nI don't know why so many people still think Apple are a fabulous, respectable, honest company... they're not. I know most other huge corporations are no better but some people's insanely high opinions of Apple are cringe worthy.", 'About fucking time. How about making it consumer replaceable from now on too?', "If you were sorry you wouldn't have done it in the first place - Mom", '"From a limited time, we\'re prepared to charge you only four times what these batteries cost us"', 'RemindMe! 30 days “fix your shitty iPhone battery for $29 if you don’t cave and buy an Android already.”', 'I don’t get why anyone thinks this is good enough from apple. The battery isn’t even free, who gives a fuck?', "Is that it? Blatantly caught fucking people's hardware up on purpose and they just basically rip your head off and take a huge runny dump down your neck. ", 'Should be free', "This shit is one of the reasons I'll never get an iPhone ", 'This isn’t good enough.\n\nRevert the “updates” that slowed the performance down.  I want to go back to using apps like tumblr on my iPad again. Since updating the iOS, certain apps refused to ever run again (that worked perfectly prior to the update).\n\nIf there’s a battery issue, then I’ll get it fixed. That’s an acceptable reality of using an old device - the battery will eventually go.\n\nBut unbrick my ipad - I regret ever updating it.', 'haha anyone who was surprised by this post is a serious apply fanboy. ', 'Here peasants,  Have some bread crumbs.  It will only cost you $29.', 'Why not include the 5 or 5s?', 'If the battery is a consumable component, then why isn’t it easily replaceable?', 'I still think this whole issue was blown way out of proportion by the simple fact that this is Apple we are dealing with and the Apple hate is real. ', 'THIS... CHANGES... EVERYTHING!!', 'Is the battery replacement going to fix why all my apps stop responding, the screen stops responding to touch, and even a forced restart isn’t even guaranteed to help?', "This makes no sense, just stop intentionally slowing down the performance of phones by getting rid of the intentional code that does this. Increasing battery life doesn't make the phone perform any better... ", 'Does this apply to the UK?', '"Applologies"', '$29 for a battery? ', 'Why is this limited to 5S and later; they’re still letting 5S devices to upgrade to iOS11', "Errghh... you're not REAL Apple unless you have the latest product on opening day... no wonder Lord Jobs killed himself... /adjusts ironic glasses", 'Too late, I upgraded to the X! What the fuck?', "that sure makes up for their criminal behavior. I'll be buying an iphone now because of their generousity.", 'Why are they only doing the $29 replacements until the end of 2018?\n\nSurely batteries in iPhones are going to continue to have this issue long past 2018. If my phone’s battery health goes to shit after the end of next year then I’m stuck paying the full price again?', 'And once again, Apple finds another billion dollar market. ', 'next week.on r/nottheonion\n\n"Apple makes 300 million dollars in apology refunds"', 'Ahh the old... "we screw you, but pay us to fix the problem we created." Switcharoo', '"We\'re sorry we got caught."', 'How about they give us back all the hours of our life that we lost while waiting for apps to respond 😑', "Don't worry guys, any loss they incur by giving batteries that cheap have long since been recuperated using other methods to bleed your wallet dry.", 'I have a year old 6. \nIs it unreasonable for me to feel as though this isn’t a solution? Nor should it be a problem this early. ', 'Funny how iverge never covered the original scandal in their own page, but highlights every tiny fault of android with big font, fireworks and an iPhone shilling line. ', 'If throttling is shown to be happening on an in-warranty iPhone, is this grounds for in-warranty (free of charge) battery replacement?', 'This just seems like they want to distract people so that they can continue with the slowdown of old phones. Just now the slowdown is on a slightly longer schedule. ', "Why one year? Are they going to sell phones with Android style power management or start marketing phones as 'the best iPhone yet (for a year)' starting this year?", 'Apple is the RyanAir of phone manufacturers ', 'So they slow your phone...but offer a new battery?\nHow does this make sense?', 'A decent operating system will know the charge cycles of the battery (MB/MBP/Air owners can get this info easily), and thus calculate the degradation of battery. This could then be factored into remaining battery life reporting.\n\nNO DEVICE SHOWING 40% BATTERY NEEDS TO UNEXPECTEDLY SHUTDOWN!!!\n\nIf what Apple states is actually the case, then they have the most ass-backward power management and reporting of any phone.\n\nI prefer the "planned obsolescence" theory, with Apple raking in many hundreds of dollars from each clueless owner.', 'So I WASNT crazy.. And it WASNT a “software mismatch” like support told me..', 'Still no downgrade os option though', 'Can they fix these damn chargers too? All of mine are stripped down to the wire. I tried buying replacements, but they all faulted.', "This probably won't get read, but if you're seeing this. Delete the Facebook app off your phone. That sucker cuts your battery life in half basically. ", "And I'm sitting here happy as Larry with my windows phone,easy life.", "We're sorry we got caught ", 'Company found to be full of shit. Tries to play it off for a fraction of the cost of fixing the problem itself.', '"hey guys, we\'re sorry we\'ve drained the batteries on your thousand dollar device, but you can pay us to give you another one that\'ll last until the next update."\n\n', 'All the outrage and people will continue buying this crap. ', 'Fuck you Apple, bought an S8+ to replace my 7+ today. Never going back, this is so much better!', "Oh, we reduced your car's performance with our software. Shame that you noticed. Here, have coupon for a tire change discount! ...", 'Anyone who still posts in support of Apple is a moron with corporate stockholm syndrome or a robot. Move on from this company... they are scum.', 'ITT: Apple fanboys and shills kissing the ring ', "hahaha we're sorry so give us more money", 'Lol of course they turned it into another way to make a quick buck. Ditch apple. Android is so much better. We have every feature with a wider variety of phones at cheaper prices. I will send you my project fi reccomendation and we can both get 20 bucks for the switch.', 'So I need to pay the most profitable company in the world for lying to me?  Fucking great. ', "Good to hear, so many apple fanboys making up excuses for this and trying to downplay it. All the drama actually got the company to do something that is good for their customers. I'm loyal to the android side and lately the Samsung galaxy line and I'd raise hell about it if Samsung had issues until they made it right. Huge corporations don't need support from their customers when they fuck up, it just sends the message that it's no big deal and they shouldn't have to do anything about it. ", 'To"I sincerely apologise for ruining your boat, but hey, I\'ll give you free floats for a year!" Yeah, fuck you, Apple. I\'ve always--and always will be--opposed to that corporation.\n\n---\n\nEDIT: hind-sight is 20/20, so:\n\n"I sincerely apologise for sinking the Titanic, but hey, I\'ll supply you with free life boats for a year!"', 'A year! We can pay the price fairly for a year! \n\nDamage is done, never purchasing apple products again', 'I really don\'t understand the apple hate here. \n\nAre they greedy? Yes...and why shouldn\'t they be? Their motto isn\'t "Don\'t be Evil", but maybe "Maximize profits". \n\nI don\'t see however how charging $29 for a battery replacement is being greedy. \n\nMost folks would upgrade to a new phone...rather than replace a battery. Apple will likely lose a lot of upgrades because of this, regardless of their mandate to make as much profit as they can.\n\nYou people need to chill', 'Bullshit response. \nEdit: posted this response to the wrong thread...bomb away though:)', "I have no love of apple. I think their products are overpriced and underwhelming. But this whole thing has been a huge mess. People didn't understand the issue in the first place and thought that it confirmed a conspiracy theory. Apple's response is waaaay too generous IMO towards the idiots who didn't understand what was happening in the first place. And now, people still aren't happy because it's easier to invent a universe that admit you were wrong on the internet.", 'And I am sure that somewhere in the T&Cs it will have a clause that releases them from liability from future class action lawsuits when you take advantage of this generous offer.', 'Ha just at Apple Genius Bar today, Guy next to me complains his battery dies after 2 hours. \nTech says “do U charge it at 50% or more?” “Because a charge is considered plugging it in at anything less than  50% life, and these batteries are only good for 500 charges”\nHuh?  Common usage is: plug phone in at night. 500 charges would be less than 2 years. ', '**”...that needs to be replaced...**\n\nWho decides if my battery needs to be replaced? My battery passes apple’s test which I guess means it’s above 80% capacity but my iPhone 6 is still laggy as shit and, although it hasn’t crashed recently, still exhibits random battery behavior. I’m guessing that if your battery passes their diagnostic they’re not giving it to you for $29.\n\n', "You've upgraded your iPhone operating system but now it runs slower.\n\nDo you:\n\n1) Buy a new iPhone and Apple profits?\n\n2) Get taken advantage of by a new bullshit policy that only arose after class action lawsuits were raised and Apple still profits?", 'PEOPLE APPL IS DOING THIS BECAUSE IT IS BEING SUED by france. Now just wait, because apple and other companies have many techniques for planned obsolescence. And its time we think seriously about a cycle development of a product and not overload this world with packaging, plastics and rubbish. ', 'What a shit fucking company', "Wow Apple's official response is the top rated comment! I definitely believe that it was organically upvoted! Go Apple!", 'What I find strange about this, is that this might be a good feature in our phones. Give us the option to turn it on or off if we feel that we can sacrifice some speed for extra battery life as our phones age.', 'Yes, this is surely reasonable compensation for hamstringing $500+ phones for numerous years. What generosity!', '$29 total? Or $29 for the battery then $99 for the labor, plus another $19 for them to ship it back to you?', 'Ok, but they also put new "features" in new iOS versions that deplete battery faster on old devices. Fuck Apple. And the headphone jack snafu....', 'It\'s hard to try and become the "caring" company when you are the richest corporation in america, yet you still [charge 1,000 dollars for something that costs $357.50 to make](https://www.macrumors.com/2017/11/06/iphone-x-component-cost-estimates/), and you continue to [stack your profits in off-shore havens](https://www.engadget.com/2017/11/07/apple-jersey-taxes/), yet, intentionally slow down the paid off phones of your loyal customers, forcing them to approach the alter and throw another grand at your feet, that they may continue to use what they have already paid for... but hay, they get 29 bucks for being duped. I wonder what the original cost of that battery was?', 'Good on Apple for this, though I still dont buy the excuse. I get that batteries age everyone gets that, but those "updates" coincided with phone releases. Seemed more like a ploy to bump sales than actually trying to do right by the customer this is evident that it was done secretly.', "So Apple is aware that batteries are consumable products, like printer ink. The difference is that I can replace my own printer cartridges.\n\nEdit: downvoted without a reply because I guess people *like* the fact that batteries are now glued inside devices you can't open. Bunch of fuckin' Apple geniuses we got here boys.\n\nNote that my Note 8 has the same *design flaw.* Samsung, you used to be cool. [You used to make waterproof phones with removable batteries.](https://www.androidcentral.com/sites/androidcentral.com/files/styles/large/public/article_images/2014/04/galaxy-s5-battery.jpg?itok=cAWp0GgF) ", 'Pretty reasonable explanation. Their only problem was not showing it in the phone when active.\n\nThis is not planned absolution if it works as before after changing battery.', 'Do it for free or your company is still an unethical capitalist shitpen.', "I don't know if this will have an effect on eligibility in the class action law suits planned against Apple for this, but I suspect it to have an impact.\n\nIt looks like several big brands are going to be facing class action lawsuits for deceptive practices this year.", 'Can my iPod Touch get a replacement as well???', "Shouldn't this be a free replacement considering how much crap they've put their customers through.\n\nSeems weird that not many people are talking about the price on here...", 'so after a year back to regular customer ripoff ? ', 'So glad I never got on the iPhone train. ', 'Oh now that it will cost the same as what Samsung has been charging all along, suddenly Apple are heroes? Not okay.', '$30 for a replacement? Make it free and the consumers would enjoy that.', "Gift me a 2017 MBP and I'll consider forgetting this whole debacle. ", 'Or you could just get any other maker of cell phone and not get slowed down in the first place. ', "The battery replacements shouldn't even have to be a thing this early on with these high end phones. Now they want to take your $29 for a year just to then go back to charging you extortionate amounts for your overpriced phone that will still slow down over time. Steve Jobs would be pissed and his companies name in my view is tarnished. ", 'Omg I replaced my battery for $60 two days ago! And... my phone is still slower than I think it should be at typing letters', '...but...the phones will still be slowed down, even with a new battery...right...?', "Has anyone tried Huawei? I'm thinking of switching.", "Fuck that. What about my old iphone that won't work anymore with new updates? Fix that shit yo. I dont need a new battery. ", 'Just like EA\'s shitty "We\'ll disable microtransactions* ^^^^^^^*and ^^^^^^^reimplement ^^^^^^^them ^^^^^^^later"', 'Yet another thing to add to the list of Crapple lies', 'But Apple can fix this with updates? Why we need change the battery? ', 'Of course this happens a week after I paid full price to replace the battery on my 6', 'I bet after that year where everything is forgotten or forgiven that battery replacement will cost $29**9**.', "It's better if you just don't buy phones that don't have replaceable batteries.  My LGG3 costs me $20 to replace the battery, and it pops up just like a normal battery.  I don't have to unsolder it or any stupid shit.  ", 'Sorry, give us more money to fix the issue', 'I’m out after my current iphone kicks it.  This “apology” is lame. Me and my wallet are moving on.', 'Gee, Apple sure makes an amazing case for having *replaceable fucking batteries.*', "Getting out a sling the apple way. \n\nJust decrease the overpriced service to a fairly high price so that you don't have to pay millions.", 'Only me that thinks that this still isn’t good enough, they are still charging money on a battery replacement that they said Apple products should never need. And they’re not even offering it on older products, just iPhone 6 and above.\n\nPut the phone speed back to normal, and when my battery complete breaks, then I’ll decide if I should replace the battery.', 'Batteries go bad. This is not what people were pissed about. \n\nIf I recall correctly, the outrage was at the OS slowing down on older phone, regardless of how good the battery is. Did they fix that? Can I use my retired iPhone 5 again? ', 'Suck a dick Apple', "So that's it? We all just take the deal and move on?", "My first smartphone was the iPhone 3. I loved that thing. \n\nLess than 2 years old, however, the damn thing was completely unusable. It was so crazy slow. I factory reset. I removed apps. Nothing helped. Everything took 3x longer than it once did. \n\nI was so aggravated that I switched to android. Been there ever since. Haven't regretted it yet.\n\nI'm convinced that Apple has been doing this since day one. They just weren't caught until now.", 'To "save power" we slowed your CPU by 50%! I fucking doubt their intention was to save customers phone battery power. Fucking liers. ', ' Love how this does NOTHING to resolve the fact that Apple forces people to upgrade every year. I don’t have 1000+ for a mediocre shitty upgrade you douchebags', 'Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha ', "That is so chickenshit. 'So sorry we deliberately made your phone worse so you would be forced to buy a new one.  We will allow you to buy a new battery.'  It should be free.", 'My iPhone 6 is already getting buggy and bogged down. Makes me fucking pissed. This kind of shit should absolutely be illegal. ', "What total horseshit. As if the battery has anything do with the speed of the phone. Is it just me, or does it seem when Steve Jobs died, so did the quality control? People paid twice as much for Apple products over anything else because that shit worked out of the box. Now, not only does it show up needing an update, it goes obsolete the moment the company needs some more money. The only - and I mean ONLY - edge Apple has over anything else is their audio chip, and if you're fucking that up by using Beats headphones, you don't need it anyway. \n\nFuck you, Apple. We're done. ", "I'd rather they just always charge $40 for a battery over going back to $80.  They shouldn't need to make a 50-75% margin on battery replacements.  Less people would switch to new phones and would try switching out the battery more often.  I think that's my problem with apple.  They feel a consumer electronic company should make 40-80% profit margins on literally everything they sell. Meanwhile other companies survive on 10% margins ", '"We\'re sorry we got caught. We\'re sorry everyone didn\'t roll over with their legs in 4 directions like ~~sheep~~ goats, [like they did when our first scam \'worked\' "](https://seekingalpha.com/article/4133931-apple-wanted-know-iphone-throttling-scandal) (the impatient can skip to **The Apple Smoking Gun**).', 'Good way to move old stock.', "I find this offer demeaning. Perhaps even repulsive. I don't own any apple devices... but it seems a bit condescending.", 'Oh good? More money for them!', 'Fuck that, demand free battery replacements for three years for every phone they put out.', '"Hey, we\'re sorry we tricked you into spending $900 every 12-18 months. Now give us $29."', "While we're at it, let's talk about the charge cords. That always fail at the same spot just before the phone end of the cord. I've had android cords last for years and years. Apple charge cords? 3 months on average. God I hate this company ", "Welp I'm glad I traded in my iPhone 6 for a Pixel two months ago :/", 'How shitty. Still make you pay to replace it.', "yeah... because the battery is the problem.  That's totally the reason they're doing this.  /s\n", 'This will definitely be the last iPhone I ever own. The only reason I ever got it is because it looks nice and is a relatively good phone, but I was instantly reminded of what a piece of shit it was when I tried to simply transfer files from my phone to my PC and vice versa. 100% going back to Samsung.', 'Apple: "sorry we fucked you over, to show how sorry we are, you can pay us $29 to fix out mistake."', "But they won't speed the phone back up after replacing the battery, do they? ", "honestly fuck that. I wouldn't accept anything less than free replacements for life.", "and would never — do anything to intentionally shorten the life of any Apple product, or degrade the user experience to drive customer upgrades.\n\nI am guessing no one at apple has ever tried to use an iPad 3 or 2 on iOS 9.3    its basically unusable..  there is no reason why apple can't keep these updates from crippling the devices. \n", "ELI5: If power consumption is such a problem - or rather that the battery can't deliver adequate power; is performance completely bogged by playing music on high volume?\n\nIf not - why? ", 'I think calling it a "drama" is a bit of a dick statement.', 'Nice my phone sucks ass i will be taking them up on this. But after this iphone i think im done. The Pixel XL is calling my name', 'Not good enough.', '!Remind ME 1 year', 'but is the speed setting based on phone age or battery capacity?', "I'd rather they just stop slowing down the damn phones", 'lol can people who own iphones even replace their own batteries?', 'Sad that they are now forced to provide a discount on battery replacements for perfectly working batteries just to keep their initial lie alive. #humanity', "I don't know, but maybe smartphone producers in general (let's be honest, it's no longer just Apple who behaves that way and wants new sales every year) could invest some of their billions into developing better batteries...or phones which utilize those batteries better, instead of burning them out within a few months. I still have an S3 which had the same exact problem (and probably still has to an extent), but a new replaceable battery for 10 euros solved most of the issues. Yet here is Apple wanting 50 bucks (or now 29 for a limited time). What gives? If their batteries were worth that much they wouldn't deteriorate so quickly?", 'So this is better than nothing, but the problem that I see isn’t with the battery but the older models slowing to a crawl with the new IOS.\n\nWhat’re they gonna do for that? Right, nothing.', "I hope they give out new iPhones for free to every single person who has owned one. So many friends have had older iPhones, and couldn't really afford a new one. Granted, maybe you shouldn't get a new IPhone, but after buying into that ecosystem, you have no other choice, and APPLE KNOWS THIS.", 'Yeahhhhh gonna go ahead and stick with apple. ', 'Now someone grab all the cereal numbers of all the pieces of your iPhone put it together and send it back. (Might void unless done right) when you send it in for a new battery get it back and check all the parts to see if any are different. Just like how they do with auto repair shops just to see if they are adding anything or taking it away. Not only that but if we jailbreak and look at the source we can see the changes they made to the iOS as well. \n\nBecause "Well fix it for 29 dollars" means that they are flaunting how much a lithium ion battery for an iPhone really costs. \n\nEdit: I\'m keeping cereal in because mobile. (Serial) seriously.', "It's easier to apologize than tell the truth.", "This won't help me as I just bought a 7S and it is not old enough to need a battery replacement.  Apple should refund me partial payment for screwing up and slowing down my prior phone.  Apple Sucks.", "The lesson of they day is don't buy Apple products. ", 'Only iphone 6 and later. Not good enough! They killed my kids old devices and forced me to update. This is BS. ', 'Apple started this prior to the 6 as they have been doing this since the 4', 'They should pay for the new phone I bought due to a slow battery on my last phone ', 'Apple...Pfff.. Next purchase will be Android. \n\nN E V E R SETTLE! \n', 'People still buy Apple products?', "Reminds me of that Scott's Tots episode of The Office where he gives that kid lithium batteries instead of paying for his college tuition lmaoo", 'How often do you guys even replace your battery? You will probably buy a new iphone before replacing your battery. But since its now a "deal" which cost $29 you now feel the need to BUY a new battery and now everything as all fine!?!?  d\'fuq?! ', 'r/misleadingthumbnails\n\nPlayStation 1 memory card', 'So why $29 for a year only, and then raise it after a year.  $50 is the profit?', 'Fix my 4S you shit heads!\n', "I love iPhones but their Moto has been BUFU since as long as I can remember.  It's an abusive relationship, I love them no matter what, their not afraid to lose me so they use me.  All they need is a $29 recharge and it'll be like old times......right.....", '"We didn\'t know we couldn\'t do that.  We\'re sorry montage."', '...and this totally has *nothing* to do with the fact that they just got sued in France for this bullshit. Absolutely nothing.', "That is more like it.  The thing I don't like about it, is that the offer is only valid for a year.\n", "I wonder where their batteries are made. Something seems off about this. It's too specific for a too random of an issue. Probably just me though.", 'I have a 5s.  F*** YOU APPLE!\n', 'So if it is now "consumable", can we make it user replaceable?', "And just like they got you in the store to give them $29 lol if I didn't like my pink phone so much I would be angry.", 'I rather have speed then a new battery -.-', '"We\'re sorry we screwed you all over... give us more money."', 'Theyll offer $29 and a handshake, gotta love apple!', 'And people are suddenly OK with all this? You just take a bait? Seriously?', '>"Apple’s also promising to add features to iOS that provide more information about the battery health in early 2018, so that users are aware of when their batteries are no longer capable of supporting maximum phone performance."\n\nTranslation: Here, let me add a feature that we can manipulate as well, just like we did with your entire phone, because those are the kinds of people we are. We\'re gonna keep fucking you and let you think that this is a great solution.\n\n\nNo. You\'ve already shown you cant be trusted. You really think people are gonna trust you not to manipulate the battery health information just to make more sales on replacement batteries? Holy shit, you\'re insane.', 'so you have to BUY a 6 in order to get a battery that should have been working this entire time, regardless of the fucking phone version?', 'But....I still have to pay for it...so triggering. ', 'Pretty fucked up.\n\nAll they needed to do was be honest and say upfront "We making phones slow because battery old make shutdown."\n\nI think at this stage the only acceptable outcome would be for Tim Cook to offer anal/oral to anyone who was wronged.', 'Local repair shop(s) should charge the same. \n\nJust took in a 6 that had been bent, shattered, and recharged 940 times. Walked out fully repaired with a new battery for $100. \n\nScreen: $65\nFrame: $5\nBattery: $30\n\nAsk for Trung - He’s Apple Certified\n6795 Wilson Blvd, Ste 36, Falls Church, VA 2204.\n', ">About a year ago in iOS 10.2.1, we delivered a software update that improves power management during peak workloads to avoid unexpected shutdowns on iPhone 6, iPhone 6 Plus, iPhone 6s, iPhone 6s Plus, and iPhone SE. With the update, iOS dynamically manages the maximum performance of some system components when needed to prevent a shutdown. While these changes may go unnoticed, in some cases users may experience longer launch times for apps and other reductions in performance. Customer response to iOS 10.2.1 was positive, as it successfully reduced the occurrence of unexpected shutdowns. We recently extended the same support for iPhone 7 and iPhone 7 Plus in iOS 11.2. Of course, when a chemically aged battery is replaced with a new one, iPhone performance returns to normal when operated in standard conditions.\n\nOh, I wonder when they're gonna roll this update out to the iphone X then.. oh wait.. they're not.. But they ARE for brand new 6s that you can still buy? Huh, I WONDER WHY.", "The greatest lie the devil told is that he doesn't exist.", 'Really? Their batteries are fine though????', 'Apple should learn a lesson from this and use batteries that aren’t worn out to a level that forces performance downgrades after just a year. ', 'Have you gone back to them and asked them to honor the discounted rate?', "My isp didn't want to do anything about congestion so they told me it was my wifi", 'I heard a story from my friend who went in to have his iPhone looked at because it turned off in 45 degree ( Fahrenheit)  weather. Genius Bar tech said it’s because the phones are designed to run in a California climate where they were invented. This is normal behavior for Ronnie your phone in the cold\n\nThis is not a joke I heard it directly from my friend who came back from the Genius Bar', "I had some fuck... err... genius at Apple Store talk down to me about the same thing when my wife's phone was lasting 14 hours a day.  Going back as well\n", "As bored as I am with Android phones, this is exactly why I won't ever switch to an iPhone. I'd rather drag my one remaining nut through a mile of broken glass than EVER wait to talk to some smug teenage fuckhead at the Apple Store while surrounded by tweens and trophy wives.", 'Did they run a diagnostic? If your battery failed they would have offered the replacement regardless of this announcement. If it passed that’s probably why they advised you on how you use the device. ', '>using my phone will use the battery\n\nThis is why I stopped going to Apple stores for help and repairs. ', "iPhones are jewelry first. That's nowhere in the EULA?", 'Oh boy, how I would crush those guys.', 'You forgot to mention how it cost you 150$', 'Back when I was foolish enough to own an iPhone. I replaced my battery in my iPhone 5 3 times in a year and a half. Everytime they first argued to just disable basically all services that make the iPhone useful. What a joke, sold it and never looked back.', 'You do realize this CPU slow down drama was about them trying to fix this issue for you right?', 'Pretty sure Seoul is getting a apple story mid next year anyway if that helps.', 'ummm, why do you not have a Samsung then. ', "Used to work for Apple Care. I _think_ that they would but I'd give them a call just in case. I think any of them going through Apple's warranty will use Apple's pricing. Not confident though :/", 'Yes, I have taken advantage of similar offers before on trips to India, taking advantage of reduced-price services at an Authorized Service Center. To have that label the store has to support all Apple service requests.', "They can verify any issue and send it off to Apple. Apple Authorized Service Centers and local phone repair shops can't get official iPhone parts. Call Apple and ask them anything they are actually friendly on the call support.", 'You’ll need to find a service center near you. I have one in Bucheon. They serviced my new American MacBook Pro that was still under warranty here in Korea. They even replaced the American keyboard with a native Korean one for me. Nice guys. ', 'Theoretically yes it will. From their A[uthorized Service Provider Program](https://support.apple.com/en-lamr/aasp-program) page:\n\n>Benefits: Reimbursement for labour, parts and (where applicable) travel for repairs covered by Apple Limited Warranty or extended service agreement ', 'TIL there are no Apple stores in South Korea', 'It makes no sense to discriminate by channel, specially as they published a single price.\nAt worst you’ll have to mail your phone, at best authorized shops will do it.', 'Why is this the top comment? Fucking Apple-bots rigging the conversation. RIP reality. ', 'Put note in calendar for Dec 1 2018: Replace battery in iPhone 7 before deal ends.', 'What about my 5s :(', '> Early in 2018, we will issue an iOS software update with new features that give users more visibility into the health of their iPhone’s battery, so they can see for themselves if its condition is affecting performance.\n\nOh, look at that. Exactly *what they should have done in the first place*, instead of leading people to think that their phones are just old, and need a replacement.', "I'm so confused. I upvoted for your kindness in taking the time to copy that here.\n\nbut I wanted to downvote the partial lie of the material.\n\nthen I wanted to upvote the soapy of their corporate speak, because if you're going to mix in a half truth (that they aren't highly desirous of pushing for upgrades purchased) with some really well crafted information to back it up, that's impressive as heck.\n\nbut then I want to downvote again because they covered over the issue with some spectacular obfuscation.\n\nSteve jobs owes me a neck rub and a cigar dang it.", 'The classy move, in my opinion, is to say what they said without the massive amount of sugar on top of their shit, but offer a free battery and a refund to anybody who bought a battery within the last 18 months.\n\nApple admitted they had an issue, and yet they still expect you to pay for an issue they created.', '> First and foremost, we have never — and would never — do anything to intentionally shorten the life of any Apple product\n\nShut the fuck up, Apple, you do.', 'Apple needs to actually fix the issue before I trust them. The focus put on the battery health I feel is a distraction from a real software issue.', "Offered direct communication to the consumer within a reasonable time period, apologized, took course of action to address the issue and pledged to do better in the future. Classy move, Apple.\n\nBut of course, this'll never be enough for the internet. Everyone should get free iPhone X's. /s", "How about outside of US and in countries which don't have service centers?", 'I don\'t believe you make phones "to last as long as possible". Every mobile phone manufacturer is trying to sell you their new version of their product every single year. Everything that the phone is designed to do is with this in mind. The goal of every company (most) is geared towards maximizing profits and they can only do that if you often buy their product. \n\nAn example needs to be made that such behaviour by a company will not be tolerated. This will benefit consumers all over the globe. ', '!RemindMe in 1 year', 'So they\'re making a profit on this nonsense now? \n\nThis is just a fig leaf to feign concern. Or else it would be free replacement, a serious apology, firing the management responsible (this may be criminal), and issuing some kind of reimbursement to those who were pressured by the intentional defect into "upgrading." \n\nCan you imagine an automobile recall that charged customers to fix the problem, after the problem was intentionally made? \n\n', "> We’ve been hearing feedback from our customers about the way we handle performance for iPhones with older batteries and how we have communicated that process. \n\nYes, the problem is that for years people have been accusing Apple of intentionally slowing down their phones over time and Apple has unambiguously and categorically denied doing that. The communication error is that you lied and misled the public about your phones for a decade and now that you've been caught with your pants around your ankles you want to pretend as if it was all a big mistake.", 'Yeah that’s why my 2 month old Apple Watch started working like total shit once the series 3 was released. ', "tl;dr - we really never wanted to fix phones; we wanted you to upgrade or replace it so we can keep our massive production going 'cause that's where the money is - I mean, that's exactly what we do with our Macs and those pussies don't complain, but since we got caught red handed and now an entire country is suing us, we'll kick down $50 for your troubles... Sorry... we'll be back in 2019 to the same ol' shiz...", "> All rechargeable batteries are consumable components\n\nThen why are you all but welding them in place inside a computer masquerading as a piece of jewelry, just so daytime pajama-wearers and purse-puppy owners can gush over how 'thin' they are?", 'Apple: For those users who have a 5S or earlier models, we don’t care.', "> First and foremost, we have never — and would never — do anything to intentionally shorten the life of any Apple product, or degrade the user experience to drive customer upgrades.\n\nOh.\n\nSo, what's the excuse for charging replacement prices to perform simple repairs on older products? And why have you been actively hostile to the repair community?", '> First and foremost, we have never — and would never — do anything to intentionally shorten the life of any Apple product, or degrade the user experience to drive customer upgrades. \n\nDear Apple: Horseshit.', "\n>Of course, when a chemically aged battery is replaced with a new one, iPhone performance returns to normal when operated in standard conditions.\n\nBullshit. My sons phone has a new battery installed at an Apple Store so it's a genuine battery and the phone is still having slowdowns.    I'm guessing playing Pokemon isn't a standard condition.   \nUnexpected shutdowns are my preference, I've used windows for years so it's not like it's something new. ", 'Apple will probably ban their app.', "I think you're a hack.", 'Such bs,  they have been lying for years! ', 'More like "We\'re so sorry. Give us more money."', 'That really did not sound like an apology to me. ', 'Anyone got any recommendations for good battery life/health apps?', 'Given the lack of transparency *until* they were caught with independent evidence, I think Occam\'s Razor would support the allegation that Apple *was* at least partly intending to push people to upgrade, and now the open apology letter (December 28, 2017), is DISHONEST PR damage control. \n\nInstance of dishonesty: \n\n>"First and foremost, we have never — and would never — do anything to intentionally shorten the life of any Apple product, or degrade the user experience to drive customer upgrades. Our goal has always been to create products that our customers love, and making iPhones last as long as possible is an important part of that."\n\n/u/error404 said it well [here](https://www.reddit.com/r/technology/comments/7mpmcg/apple_apologizes_for_iphone_slowdown_drama_will/drvzqwi/).\n\nApple are now playing it off like they had no choice.\n', 'I mean they’re famous for that. Wait for your competition to sort out the bugs and then add it to iOS as a feature. \nFor example night shift used to be an app then I believe they denied them permission to sell in the App Store so you had to jail break to get it and then next thing you know it comes built into your phone now. \nFace ID al sorts of things ', 'a lawsuit?', '> even though there are hundreds if not thousands of 3rd party apps that let you see how worn your battery is.\n\nNot any more. There used to be, but a year or so back (right around when they added this “feature”) Apple removed all these apps from the App Store. Can’t see your own battery health anymore. Have to rely on what Apple claims when you take it into a store. ', '>What does Apple offer them?\n\nAn iPhone X at full price.', 'For what it’s worth, I had a phone for three years and it was acting funny and they suggested I replace the battery, which I did and it was like new again. They never said that a new phone was the answer. I guess I might depend on the country and store you go to (this was in London). ', 'But you said it yourself, there are TONS of free battery apps. Why is it Apples obligation to create and include every single conceivable type of app, and bloat their phones with a bunch of software most people dont want?', "Apple isn't doing this out of any sense of duty or doing the right thing, they're doing it because they were tarred and feathered and this lets them say they're doing something about it. \n\nGood. Keep the shame coming. If any other manufacturers do sketchy things like this I want them drawn and quartered just like Apple. Maybe this is the beginning of the end of $1000 devices being designed to not be physically usable beyond the usual time people buy new phones. ", 'Ios notifies you when your battery health reaches a certain point....', "It's because if you can see the battery life, you can start track8ng and trending things. Nobody likes to be observed, especially businesses.", "It's cool though that you can easily have them perform a remote battery test.  \nYou're likely sending in everything your phone knows about you to them as a trade, but still?", '> Apple has never had any "battery life insights" in iOS\n\nThey do. It\'s in the Settings app.', 'Do they make commissions? ', 'Multi billion dollar Apple? Try 1 trillion dollar apple, the first US company to ever break the $1 trillion dollar market cap mark.', "I agree with you. My LG V20 has replaceable battery. That's why I bought it. ", "Because a lot of new phones are water resistance these days. Rarely are phones both water resistant and have a removable battery (see the s5).\n\nWith that being said, I don't see the big deal about not having removable batteries, or why anyone would be outraged that phones don't have removable batteries. What purpose would it serve? You still have to go to the store and buy a replacement battery in X years time. The only difference is someone from <manufacturer> replaces it for you instead of yourself? Big whoop. \n\nEdit: Yikes ok, based on reading people’s reactions there are definitely a few good reasons to have a phone with a removable battery:\n\n* Some people don’t live near a store capable of replacing a phones battery. \n\n* Some people prefer the ability to have an easily removable battery as opposed to the other benefits of having a phone without an easily removable battery. \n\nMy opinion personally is still that it is not a major factor of mine when looking at a phone to purchase. It’s probably at the bottom of the list as far as importance goes, but also that is because I live in a city where stores are aplenty and just a block or two away. ", 'Gotta dodge the defective chinese rip-off batteries, too. ', '1.5 years? I have an iPhone 6 for 2.5 now and it’s not a paper weight. I replaced the battery myself yesterday in about 5 minutes. I probably didn’t have to but after I heard the news about them slowing I was curious to the performance difference. ', 'I don’t see that as a problem. If I want to replace my battery I have 3 options.\n\n1.\tGet apple to do it: $$$\n2.\tget a third party repair shop to do it: $$\n3.\tOrder parts and use an ifixit guide to do it: $\n\nThese options are fine for me. iPhones are so popular there are third party repair shops almost everywhere. The tools and guides for replacing batteries are also everywhere. Because this is something that happens once every 18-24 months this really isn’t a big deal. Even if I go out hiking for a week I still wouldn’t be sad about no replaceable batteries. Whats easier, carrying three replaceable batteries that only fit in my phone or one power bank that can charge any device multiple times.', "My phones aren't paper weights after 1.5 years. My last phone (iPhone 6s) was working at seemingly full capacity when I replaced it after 2 years. I didn't have shutdowns even before the software update which slowed the phone down to prevent them. And I had normal battery life.", 'My 4 year old Note2 would like to have a chat.', 'I don\'t know if this applies to you but I had a S6 with a "bad battery" and after a factory reset... it seems fixed. Although I can\'t be sure since I don\'t really use that phone anymore, I only did the factory reset as an afterthought and I like my current phone better. But now at least the charge doesn\'t drain away at 5% per hour even when not using it...', "Outrage doesn't do anything, if you want a good phone there aren't many options", 'Is the S7 that bad? My S8 easily holds a day (normal usage, nothing excessive)', "Because people want to upgrade quickly for phones so it's never really an issue. I'm all for replaceable batteries but the market spoke loud and clear they prefer a sexy design.", "Maybe an android phone is a paperweight after 1.5 years. I do just fine upgrading my iPhone every 2-3 years and I wouldn't class the phone as useless when it comes time to upgrade. ", "Bought the wife an extended(6400mah) battery for her aging s5. She said it was like getting a new phone. Previously her battery would be dead at the end of the day, now after a full day of normal use she's still at 85%. It's incredible. \n\nWe're at the point where mobile cpu's are basically fast enough, so things like removable batteries and sd cards can seriously prolong the life of your phone.", 'your s7 experience is not typical', "That's interesting, i have the fast charger that came with my S7 edge (which admittedly does have a bigger battery) at the office and a generic charger at home. Thing is the battery holds so well i think i've only used the fast charger once or twice in 1.5 years since a full charge lasts me a full day of heavy use no problem. It still holds for two days of light use even now.", "They're all removable if you're careful.", "Because I enjoy water resistance and peace of mind. A plastic piece of shit with a removable back doesn't exactly give me peace of mind ", 'My iPhone 6S is over two years old and still running well. *knocks on wood*.  ', "I plan on doing this https://www.ifixit.com/Guide/Samsung+Galaxy+S7+Battery+Replacement/90299 when my S7 battery degrades. A lot cheaper than buying a new phone but it is irritating that they couldn't make it easier to replace.", "Then stop buying shit you don't want.\n\n\n\nI got a MotoG5 because it has a removable battery and micro SD and Duel SIM. You want manufacturers to stop making phones without changeable battery, just stop buying those phones instead of whining like a bitch. Sure you'll lose out on the flagship/slick looking phone but you gotta crack eggs before the omelette can be made.", 'outraged? You use that word, yet you bought an S7.. be outraged at yourself.. Companies just want to make money.', "I won't buy any android without a replaceable battery. Still clinging to my S5.", 'this is why i still am clutching to my S5, i  can buy a new battery when i need it and just swap it out ', 'You can get it replaced if you "know a guy". I\'d do it myself, but I have no interest in learning.', "If you're so outraged by non removable batteries, why did you buy a phone with a non removable battery? ", 'Makes it water proof, more solid and they can put bigger battery.\nI never in my life changed battery my phone.', 'Yeah. Insane.', 'Since I purchased an iPhone that uses a lightning connector. I’ve purchased my cables from Anker through amazon. Or Monoprice through their own web store.  Both put out amazing products and will replace their products should it fail. Monoprice even offered lifetime warranty on any cable, no questions asked. The upside is that they are cheaper and better quality. They are MFI certified so they will work flawlessly. ', 'Where are you paying $35? It’s $19 at the Apple Store for a Lightning Cable, and only a few bucks for an MFi Certified cable on Amazon. If you DO want to spend the extra money, buy a Native Union cable for $24. Braided Nylon. Lifetime Warranty.', 'The wire is $19 so you’re full of shit\n\nhttps://i.imgur.com/HDSnzHi.jpg', '$29 is probably at cost, the cable still has a huge markup on it.', 'Parts + Labor', 'I assume you swing by to buy your $100 Monster HDMI cables from Best Buy while you’re at it?', 'Welcome to capitalism and a monopoly! :)  ', "We'll yeah with the $50 rebate yes that's the effective price. Unless you'd rather pay the $79", 'Is that anecdotal or is there some evidence showing that?', "They haven't. Phones age. People are mostly misattributing their devices slowness to this", "They can't admit to that because then their class action payout gets even bigger!", 'Yea, this. I have NO idea why people are defending apple in this thread for being "generous" The fact is people went out and bought new phones when their current ones got "old and slow". If anything there should be a $500 credit for anyone who bought a phone this year from them. ', 'This right here is the crux of it.\n\nI don\'t understand how people are defending Apple here.  At worst, they pulled an underhanded con job to trick people into upgrading their current phone.  At best, they acted in a willfully obtuse manner that projects real contempt for their consumers.  (How do you define your phone\'s functionality?  By how fluidly it loads apps and runs smoothly?  WRONG!  The correct definition of functionality is how long the battery lasts.  We\'ll make the decision for you; we\'ll compromise the former to improve the latter.  But we don\'t need to inform you, because we know what\'s best for you!  Even better, there\'s little ambiguity on how the end-user can interpret this backdoor "feature"!)', 'While really despicable, nobody forced you got an iPhone 8. ', 'Exactly the same boat here. Never would have bought an 8 if I knew my 6 was slowing down because apple was slowing it down. ', "I type this on an iPhone X. I would have kept my 6 plus had a KNOWN that getting a battery replacement would have fixed the slowdowns that I noticed increase week by week. This was the point though. Had I KNOWN about them intentionally slowing down my phone I would've made a choice.", 'Lol.  Did they hold a gun to your head?  Get real.', 'lol if you knew of this, why would you buy another Apple product? How mad are you about this really? Obviously not so much that you will "vote with your wallet". But enough to bitch and moan about how you should get something for free.', 'Why did you get another Iphone?', 'If your 6 got obsolete after only 2 years why on earth would you buy another just like it? Learn from your mistakes and move on.', 'At least you iPhone 6 is worth a little more now? :/', 'Honestly, I love the pure bandwagon-ing. One person cries wolf and hundreds of others do too. All these people saying they would’ve kept their 6 or 6s and not upgraded to the 8 know that 50% of them would’ve upgraded anyway.', "My wife still uses her iPhone 6.  So... I guess there wasn't any forced obsolescence.  Either way, Apple would likely give you [$125](https://www.apple.com/iphone/trade-up/) credit for your iPhone 6.", "This!  We replaced 3 6's in my family this month (literally a week before the news broke).   There should be a credit to customers who were told to upgrade before this news came out.  \nI was the only one on an older phone, an iphone 5 that I refused to upgrade the iOS for years.  No issues on that phone until the software was finally upgraded.  ", "Why did you purchase the product's successor, from the same manufacturer, when your product was forced into obsolescence?", 'Exactly. Too little too late. \n\nBesides I\'ll bet $50 that this "deal" comes along with a waiver where I give up my right to participate in a class action against them. F YOU APPLE. This is my last iPhone. ', 'The phone slows down to compensate for drops in battery performance. A new battery should be enough to speed it up.', "And all the way down at the bottom, this is finally asked. The battery doesn't even solve the problem. At best (if at all), does it not just delay it?", "Apparently it will be part of an update that they'll allow you to access this info.", '> Early in 2018, we will issue an iOS software update with new features that give users more visibility into the health of their iPhone’s battery, so they can see for themselves if its condition is affecting performance.\n\n', 'CoconutBatter for Mac does this. It shows you the number of charge cycles, the capacity in % and mA, and more. Download the app on your Mac and plug your device in. ', 'Use Coconut Battery on your Mac.', 'An app called battery life in the app store.', "It's not as simple as 'the limitiations of lithium batteries forced...'. As in any engineering situation, there are lots of tradeoffs and compromises that can be made. Very low impedance lithium batteries are available that would never in a million years suffer from this (think power tools and drones), but they tend to be lower energy density, so you can draw insane currents but not hold as much energy. They could also add more capacitance to the power rails to handle the burst loads, assuming the average load can be handled by the battery, but these take space that is at an extreme premium. As far as I know, nobody's even confirmed that this is, in fact, a/the problem in the first place. I've certainly never really heard of an epidemic of iPhone random shutdowns.\n\nThey're playing it off like they had no choice, but I guarantee you that they have pretty accurate curves and distributions on the impedance of these batteries as they age, as well as the load drawn by the hardware and its dropout voltage. So either they *chose* this path, most likely in order to push the capacity to the limit at the expense of long term viability, or the batteries (or some batches of them) were defective/out of spec. Either way, I don't think they did the right thing here. In the first case - well, in a device with a non-replaceable battery and no indication of battery status in the UI, you're uhh...encouraging...early retirement...by shipping batteries that don't last more than a couple years of normal use. In the second case, they should have recalled the affected devices and offered free replacement as soon as they identified it, instead of rolling this software 'fix' without telling anyone.", '>The controversy here is that the limitations of lithium batteries forced apple to choose between random shutdowns and performance throttling\n\nIs the issue *really* the batteries though? Doesn\'t basically every smartphone on the market use lithium batteries? In so many words, all apple has said about batteries are "they don\'t hold as much of a charge over time" - this is nothing  new.  \n\nThe real issue is, why is Apple the only company that has to throttle their phone processors significantly in order to \'prevent unexpected shutdowns\'?  It sounds like apple needs to better optimize their OS, not force users with older devices to upgrade to OS\'s that are incompatible with their hardware, or improve the power-draw of their proprietary CPU\'s that appear to draw so much power a standard battery cannot supply it.', "> The controversy here is that the limitations of lithium batteries forced Apple to choose between random shutdowns and performance throttling.\n\nHow is that even a controversy? when batteries get old, you replace them and continue using the device.\n\nThat's how it has been for the 20 years I have been using cellphones.", 'As a user of iPhone 5S, kinda feeling being left out in the cold. ', "People saying Apple should provide a switch to turn it off really haven't thought it through, it can shutdown when you most needed, during a call, taking a video etc. Better communication is absolutely needed but to say I'd prefer to have a broken experience and potentially damage my OS / hardware is very shortsighted.", 'This could have been mitigated with more transparency. The thing is I had the shutdown problem you would think they would make a bigger statement about fixing a problem. ', 'I’m a little worried by “for anyone...whose battery needs to be replaced.” My 6S seems really slow but I don’t have a warning that my battery needs servicing.  Will they consider me to not “need” a replacement without the warning?\n\nI’ll be very interested to get some actual data about how much and how often I’m being throttled, if at all, in the next update. ', 'You seriously believe all that?', 'None of my Samsung phones run under clocked or spontaneously shut down. Even my old note 2 from 2012. Hell, it\'s overclocked a bit.\n\nAlso, according to apples own documentation the battery from the iPhone 6s costs them $4.75. Even in their "I\'m sorry, we shouldn\'t have done that" apology they still intend to earn a profit off of you. ', 'I think the issue is that they didn’t tell anyone they were doing it and why. They did it sneaky and underhanded and only talked about it when they were caught.', "Ah yes, the limitations of lithium. Never experienced these random shutdowns on another lithium powered device, but sure, give Apple the benefit of the doubt. Not like they are trying to cover their ass here. And even if their explanation is believed, it would just mean they fucked up an aspect of their engineering and then didn't tell anyone and surreptitiously made adjustments to performance, which has the happy by-product of encouraging new device purchases. What good fortune for Apple! ", 'Not the limitations of li-ion, the limitations of the intentional design of the battery Apple designed on purpose to go in the iPhone. Knowing this result would occur, they did it anyway. \n\nThat is the real issue. Apple intentionally designed their phones to experience this problem in as little as a year of age or less. It isn\'t an accident. It\'s by design. The software cover up is irrelevant. The real issue is that this problem is happening in the first place. It wasn\'t an accident. You don\'t just randomly pick a battery design and cross your fingers and hope for the best. Battery fatigue is expected and predictable. They knew these phones would experience failure from unsustainable voltage requirements very shortly into the lifespan of the device. \n\nIt\'s actually kind of sad that Apple has so effecticely taken the eyes off of the real problem and convinced people that the software "fix" is what they should be mad about.\n\nBecause now Apple can easily add a toggle or some other appeasement to the software and everyone will be okay with it, even though the real problem of intentional hardware planned obsolescence is still in full swing.\n\nAnd yes, there are multiple ways Apple could have prevented these shutdowns if they didn\'t want them to happen, and remember, they knew they were going to happen. \n\nThe easiest is to simply use a larger battery. As this allows the battery to sustain a given voltage longer into its lifespan than a smaller battery would. Do you think it is coincidence that iPhones have batteries 2/3 the size of androids and are having this problem while androids don\'t (at least not until later into the lifespan of the device)? It isn\'t coincidence. It\'s design.', 'TIL: A battery aging = Apple "fucking up your shit".', "I like how it's $29 and not $30 so they can still try to deceive people", 'Most likely.', 'Sorry guys. We are going to take more money from you. No no, it was our fault, we insist. \n\n\nFTFY', '> the day before they updated to iOS 10\n\nThe throttling was only introduced in 10.2.1 (released on January 23, 2017), though.', "It's not like they have a lot of revenue or cash reserves. Take it easy on this fledgling start-up.", 'The controversy was over slowing phones down not the battery dying ', " Also, enjoy the crap battery that we'll install to save a few bucks. It'll shit out in half the time, at which point you can pay over $100 for a new battery, or buy a new device. ", "So Apple intentionally fucked you over.  For years.  And with this proclamation you're not only happy but ecstatic?  Apple customers really are the biggest suckers on the planet.", 'As a guy with a 6 that needs a new battery today and not a month from now, fuck!', 'I\'m happy about it. Because I can\'t afford a new phone right now. And I\'m really tired of my phone "dying" when I need it (to get transportation, ex)', 'Yep, just protecting their ass. ', "Exactly this. They'll happily take in a steady stream of $29's where their batteries wouldn't even cost this amount. What about compensation for those who went into store with a slowed down phone and were persuaded to buy a newer model, when all they needed was a battery? Nope, that'd cost them money.\n\nApple's response here tells you all you need to know about them.", 'Not defending Apple, but why should they pay to replace your 3 year old battery. That falls under normal use, and they have to pay for the batteries, shipping, training, and staff ', "This post inspired me to finally buy a new battery for my Android. \n\nI've been putting it off forever, despite citing the replaceable battery as a reason I keep this phone and how it should be standard for all.\n\nThis $29 'favor'/'apology'? Ha. My battery cost $9 on Prime and will take me 10 seconds to replace.", 'This doesn’t go into effect until late January, so yes. ', 'Check with your credit card company about price protection', 'If losing $50 is screwed', 'You were screwed the moment you walked into that Apple Store. Now bend over and drop another $29.', 'So if a component is known to wear out, and be one of the first thing that WILL wear out, why is it so difficult to replace? Cars are designed to have batteries and brakes replaced because the manufacturers know that they will wear out first.\n\nIf the battery cannot keep up with the demands of the user it should be replaceable. End of story.', 'There wouldn\'t be this backlash, if they were transparent about the power management updates in the first place.\n\nThey now *make a show* of coming clean, after they were caught, so it does seem that they were trying to get away with it.\n\nTo spell it out clearer: Apple\'s thought process in deciding to throttle *on the sly* could have been like this:\n\n- Advantage 1: It will appear to "fix" the sudden shutdowns for those customers complaining about it, without us having to replace their batteries.\n\n- Advantage 2: The mysterious slowness will frustrate the customers into buying a new iPhone. ', 'Make that 450+ number close to 1,000 and I\'m satisfied. Batteries should "survive" more than 450+ cycles. And I expect often they do. This laptop I\'m on has over 500 and the battery life is still very good.\n\nWhen Apple made their laptop batteries non-swappable (without tools) they said they had improved batteries to last something like 2,000 cycles. Even if I am a bit skeptical of that number, I think given that statement I should expect much more than a figure a bit more than 450.', ">People whining about how this is so terrible simply don't understand that there are limits to the physics / chemistry going on in your device, and when those limits are pushed, bad things happen.\n\n>Stuff wears out. Get over it.\n\nPeople are whining because Apple was not transparent about this at all. They did not tell you the device was being slowed down due to a worn out battery.", 'Yup, just replaced my retina macbooks battery at apple after 4 years and 1,500 cycles. It was $199 and they replaced the entire top case and battery including the keyboard, not a bad deal.', 'Funny how my old ipod still works just as fast as it ever did. Battery life might not last as long but the performance is still there. ', 'No one is mad about the degrading batteries, people are upset about the slowing down of phones. A battery is way cheaper than a new phone. Samsung did this too as well.', "My laptop is 6 years old and it NEVER shut down before warning me that the battery was very low. No android phone that I had forced shut down above 5% battery capacity (where there may be some measuring error). No device that I ever had slowed the processor *behind my back*, for any reason whatsoever. I'm sorry but this is bullshit. Had it been Motorola or Samsung people would be freaking out about it. Dell even informs you when it's time to change your batteries!\n\nApple was extremely dishonest with this whole thing and they still have the nerve to charge for it. They would have whole right to charge if the phone didn't slow down behind the users back or if it warned about such behavior. Also they decide when **YOU** can change the battery on **YOUR** fucking phone! It's blatant planned obsolescence.", "No, I won't get over it. They've fucked customers over with the absurd price of battery replacement and the lack of a proper warning. They're profiting off this.", "The point is that Apple would not tell you to get a new battery when the issue appears but to get a new device. They want to sell you a new phone every year. Anything else is bad for shareholders. Don't kid yourself.. also let's not kid ourselves. The whole industry works on this premise. It is very shady and all mobile phone companies should be discouraged from such behaviour. ", 'IMO apple should have predicted that this shitstorm could happen and show a message to the user saying that the reason his device sucks in terms of performance is that the battery is worn out and he can get a replacement in an apple store or something like that.', 'That actually sounds like an improperly calibrated battery, rather than battery wear and tear.\n\nWindows will account for battery degradation in its estimated remaining time till dead. There is even tools that will show you the exact amount of battery degradation. \n\nUnexpected shut downs when it shows a large amount of batter life left, is from batteries that need calibration. A device battery will typically never let itself run to complete 0%, as this would damage it, and possibly brick the device. So they are calibrated to something like 5% left, is shown as 0%. With many charge/discharge cycles the software missreads the information from the battery, and needs to be re-calibrated for proper estimated times till dead. There is software for this.\n\n**However,** for you to claim this is a sound engineering approach is nothing more than you trying to self soothe over your apple use.\n\nYou know what **real** sound engineering is? Designing a margin of error into the phone. **Like every other manufacturer**. Taking account that lithium battery degradation is a well known fact, so other manufacturers build in a margin of error, so that their phones can run at full speed without shutting off.\n\nThe amount of logic leaps people are taking here to defend apple is amazing.', 'You sound like a shill ', 'funny thing is that your laptop doesn\'t slow the apparent processing power to the operating system. apple does.    stuff wears out we get that.  my 7 year old computer runs windows 10 fine, my 11 year old truck still runs and drives at the same speed.  the 6 year old TV on the wall in my bedroom functions perfectly still.  we expect more out of devices that are "Premium"', "I feel ya, I'm in between.  \n\nI think it's a decent move by Apple, but doesn't necessarily make them 'good' for doing it.\n\nMaking it right is better, but if it's only due to getting caught, it's hard for me to think all is well and good in regards to how they acted.\n\nI don't have all the info, just giving an alternative perspective without trying to sound assholish.", 'Well, look at this part:\n> Over the course of this fall, we began to receive feedback from some users who were seeing slower performance in certain situations. Based on our experience, we initially thought this was due to a combination of two factors: a normal, temporary performance impact when upgrading the operating system as iPhone installs new software and updates apps, and minor bugs in the initial release which have since been fixed. We now believe that another contributor to these user experiences is the continued chemical aging of the batteries in older iPhone 6 and iPhone 6s devices, many of which are still running on their original batteries.\n\nDo you honestly believe that it\'s only just recently they\'ve had the revelation that maybe phones have been slowing down for reasons other than minor bugs and the "normal, temporary performance impact" of a new OS upgrade?  Reasons like, oh, maybe the deliberate slow-down they coded into the OS?\n\nIt\'s a decent bit of damage limitation, I\'ll grant that, and $29 for a battery replacement isn\'t too bad, but let\'s not kid ourselves they\'re doing this to be nice.', 'Welcome to /r/technology, where everyone hates Apple but "praises our Google overlords!" Meanwhile, the rest of the world taps away on their iPhones and MacBooks and doesn\'t give a fuck.', 'Want another example of this behavior? Checkout /r/DestinyTheGame its been a hilarious disaster since November.', 'Why would they care?', "And this isn't even a proper confession, since they're denying that they wanted to push people to buy new phones.  They're giving ad-hoc it-was-for-your-own-good kind of justifications now.  It's still dishonest damage control.", 'Got caught doing what? Prolonging the lifespan of iPhones? Oh no how dare they! ', "Yep, Apple know even when they screw up they can make money out of their customers. The only way Apple will ever get the message is when large numbers of people start buying other companies products instead. Trouble is so many people 'forgive' Apple time after time 🤦", 'You bought an Apple Watch and are concerned with nickel and diming over $50?', 'Mine did the same thing, Apple replaced it.  It is a known problem with the 1st Gen watches. ', 'If you have a legitimate swollen battery, that should be covered for you under a recall program. All Apple products have coverage on swollen batteries for two years due to swollen batteries being a safety concern. If you damaged the watch and the face fell off, that’s different. The watches swollen batteries are very blatantly swollen when this happens.', 'Why would this extend to the watch line ', 'In this sub this post has like 315 upvotes 2 hours in. The France suing Apple thread has 87k 10 hours in. \n\nThe amount of misinformation and misunderstanding (and bias) in a technology subreddit is downright astounding (talking about the France vs. Apple lawsuit thread). ', "I'm here from r/all", "Why should it be free on a well out of warranty device for a component that's known to degrade? ", "How is this planned obsolescence? I don't think you understand the issue ", 'Apple have done one too many shady things for me to stop buying their products a few years ago. Glad I moved away from them.', "That's the problem right there.\nJust stop buying from them. It's not like they are the only company selling phones.\n\nDo we really need a 1000$ phone?\nA cellphone ... for one thousand dollars!\nThink about that for a second. That's insane!", 'By not saying older, I am assuming 6s/7. Not super clear.  Looks like theyre gonna have another update with the specifics though', "The 5 and 5s aren't affected by the throttle because they can't run the update that causes it.", 'Damn it. I have a 5s that I used until this summer, and I was hoping to revive it.', '> It literally is in place to prolong the use of your phone.\n\nas explained by battery experts, this is bullshit\n\n>It does not need to be an option for the user to turn off, as it\'s not a feature, it\'s explicitly how the manufacturer wants their product to behave.\n\nindeed, still it\'s a shitty practice made to scam people by making them think their phone is "slower" because of "age" so that in comparison the newer phone seems much faster than it actually is, it\'s a scummy scam, not a "feature" no matter how you want to paint it\n\n>Every SINGLE piece of technology with CPU uses power draw methods to determine CPU clock speed in one from or another. A lot is retroactive, this is proactive, but it\'s not Apples specific.\n\nonce again, even if this was the case, there is more to it than just that and it\'s clear as day when you take off the "iLove" glasses and look at it from a realistic perspective\n\n>The analogy of if a car company would do this and how outraged we would be is plain garbage. They already do! Put bad gas in your car, and it will "clock down" it\'s engine input.\n\nyou\'re comparing putting a lower quality consumable to a high grade engine to the engine being "manufactured" in a way that when a new car comes out your car starts going slower... please stop trying to defend this practice, you\'re wrong\n\n>Out of all technological advancements we have made, batteries are arguably the slowest and furthest behind, we work around it.\n\nno... you don\'t, we don\'t, companies do... but this isn\'t again because of the battery, it\'s a marketing ploy and everyone sees it... it\'s downright dumb to feel the "company" is protecting you by making your phone be worse than every other phone out there\n\nyou don\'t need to defend Apple, keep buying their products if you want, but not everyone is eager to take the kool-aid', '1) They don\'t know if each and every battery is bad, they just assume that it will be after X months. They probably have data to show that some batteries go bad at that time, but surely not all.\n\n2) Purposefully degrading user experience might not be against consumer rights, but it sure as hell ain\'t good costumer service and people have every right to complain against it.\n\n3) So why didn\'t they make it retroactive/adaptive? Probably a bit more work, but as we can see now they would have saved themselves a lot of trouble by being a bit more user-friendly.\n\n4) But it\'s not the gas that is the issue that people are having, the problem is the new filter the manufacturer installed that "clocks down" the engine input on EVERY car of that model, even if you don\'t put in bad gas.\n\n5) Yes, you work around it, but this is one of the more ham-fisted ways of doing it and Apple deserves some heat over it.', '"We\'re sorry that you feel that you caught us."', 'Batteries have a shelf life.', 'So instead of spending $1000 on a brand new phone...Apple is charging $29 to replace the battery, and is now more somehow more evil.\n\nAre you really believing your own shit?', 'No they should just let people roll backroads a previous OS and let people choose if they rather have a slow phone or have it potentially crash ', 'Congrats?', 'Good news.  Your 3GS has a 600 mHz processor which puts it on par with the iPhone 6S after iOS underclocks its processor due to a battery with 80% or less life remaining.', 'Except it only started recently (iOS 10 I think) but people have been claiming it’s always happened ', "Really? It's obvious. They make the phone totally unserviceable by the average consumer so they can charge you for anything that needs repaired on it.", 'I mean most flagship phones are that way now, not just Apple. ', "They're not any different ", 'and the labor to put it in as it is a sealed unit, 29 bucks is nothing', "I know, crazy. They could have at least offered a free battery replacement for anyone suffering from the throttling issue. It's probably a $5 battery they normally charge $80 for.", 'Capacity really has nothing to do with it.  ', "You clearly don't understand the issue ", "I'm glad they've reduced the price but it doesn't excuse that they've been profiting off this and not warning their customers about it. They just so happened to let customers believe that their phones were too old which just so happens to make customers buy a new phone. Plus, they're only reducing the price for a year, going full EA on respecting the voices of customers **temporarily** to reduce controversy and let people forget the issue.", 'But good luck using that iPhone in another year once the overall battery life drops below 80% again.', "I read somewhere on a Reddit rabbit hole that BMW does this to their computerized engines. I'm too tired and beer'd at the moment to source, but Reddit rumors are always true. ", 'Thats the thing, its not bullshit as replacing the battery **solves** the issue completely. And of course we\'re all in the free hate train against Apple right now, but this happens with every phone with a standard battery. Had an S6 Edge before my iPhone 7, and was starting to experience a degraded battery.\n\nWhat is bullshit is them not letting all users replace their batteries because "its still good" even when they\'re not. Some may even say that they should be getting this for free, and I agree with that, depending on the model of course. If your 3-4 year phone starts to show signs of bad battery, why would you want it for free? In the newer models it should be, as its not expected for it to happen.', "Thifferent.\n\n***\n\n^(Bleep-bloop, I'm a bot. This )^[portmanteau](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Portmanteau) ^( was created from the phrase 'Think different'. To learn more about me, check out this )^[FAQ](https://www.reddit.com/78ilq0).", "I don't believe the 5S has the type of battery that is affected by this.", 'They do that already', 'Played right into their hands :(', "Find my ANY mobile phone or tablet device from 2011 that doesn't run like obsolete shit.  I think you're trolling.", 'It\' still happening because they have coded the operating System to "throttle" (slow down) the CPU/GPU on the motherboard of the phone if it\'s sensors detect that the battery isn\'t nearly as powerful as it used to be when it was brand new.  \n\nYour phone requires a certain amount of constant voltage from the battery to operate at what you perceive to be "fast" and "stable".  In order to maintain the stability part, as your battery holds less and less charge the OS purposely slows the CPU/GPU so it uses less power.  Thus the accusation that your phone is slower.\n\nApple has not changed nor does it plan to change this.  Then only way you can reverse it is by having the old batter replaced with a new battery.  According to the communique from Apple they will only do this for you "if" your battery is weak enough (by their standards).', 'You clearly do not understand the issue at all.  ', 'The feature isn’t malicious. People asked for a change to it and they’re changing it. Honestly what more can you ask for without being able to go back in time? Not everything is a huge conspiracy. ', 'Android products just never get updates. Pick your poison I guess. Android user myself, hate how quickly updates stop on some phones.', 'Replaceable battery or waterproof. Pick one.', "By my reading of the Apple letter, I think you'd be paying $29 for the battery when the scheme is ready in late Jan 2018.\n\nIf it was in-warranty, then you should be able to get it changed now, at $0.", "What the? You've paid (so far) $3472 for your iphone 6?? ($112 * 31 months).", 'Why did you start your sentence with "I mean" ?', "Apple makes the choices for you for your safety and protection.  \n\n>The intent is to provide our customers with a sense of pride and accomplishment for unlocking different iPhones.\n\nHaven't you figured that out yet?", ">Revert the “updates” that slowed the performance down.\n\nIn affected phones, you either have an underclocked CPU or it resets randomly. Do you *really* want to choose the latter?\n\nIt's just how li-poly batteries roll.", "I mean, $29 to get a new battery installed in my iPhone 7 in Nov or Dec of next year (when the phone will be around 2 years old, and likely will need a new battery) is a pretty spankin' good deal.  ", 'If I could pay Samsung for a replacement battery for my 4 year old phone I would do it.\n\nI paid more for a battarybank just in case I need to charge my phone anyway.', 'Because they still want you to buy a new one.', "It's a consumable, all phones batteries go to shit after the first year, and more after. Higher end phones have issues because they   require more peak power, throttling or buying a new battery is needed to prevent those issues. \nAnd it's only for iPhone 6 and older anyway, if you have anything newer you'll have to pay whatever that cost is.", 'Right there with ya. Commenting because I read your post as having a 6 year old and I was wondering what your kid had to do with it haha', "They're justifying the slow down of older products as a battery issue", '"First and foremost, we have never — and would never — do anything to intentionally shorten the life of any Apple product, or degrade the user experience to drive customer upgrades"\n\nhmmm, that seems to be EXACTLY what they did ?!\n\nAll your phone processor power now running a third of capability? Try running your desktop computer at 1/3 of regular speed, and tell me how long until you would rip your hair out in frustration!', "> NO DEVICE SHOWING 40% BATTERY NEEDS TO UNEXPECTEDLY SHUTDOWN!!!\n\nYES IT DOES.\n\nLi-poly batteries, when they get older, can send voltage spikes down the line. This triggers an emergency shutdown of the CPU. I'm not sure whether that is to protect the CPU or the battery, but it's a known limitation of the new battery technology.\n", 'Literally the worst analogy in the world hahah! ', "They chose slower CPU over random crashes. Clearly only true scumbags would choose an option that would allow their users to keep working interrupted. The cads.\n\nI guess I'm a robot now.", 'Lmao I’m gonna assume your statement is true minus the “again.”', 'They purposely and knowingly defrauded their clientbase, admitted the product we purchased was not in good faith, and want us to pay 30 bucks for their swindle, you fucking fanboy.\n\nJobs is dead, pull his bone out of your mouth. Christ.', '"don\'t be evil" was Google\'s motto.  \n\nBut I agree, many are hating a decent feature and screeching REEEEE conspiracy.  not everything is a shady fraudulent devious gaslighting plan to get one over on you.  really does say something about the screechers', 'What would you have wanted instead?', 'I would seriously like to know why this is a bullshit response, other than you trying your hardest to circle jerk about "Hurr durr apple bad". \n\nThey addressed the issue directly, gave full transparency on the subject and even set a plan to repair devices for the cost of a battery on other devices (Galaxy S8 battery is $30 https://www.ifixit.com/Store/Parts/Galaxy-S8-Battery/IF355-000-1 and that is without any parts and labor, you have to disassemble the device yourself.). \n\nWhat in your oh so humble opinion would be an "appropriate" response?', 'Am I missing something here? This doesn\'t even come close to being generous. If anything it\'s an insult.\n\nThey were using power management for older batteries, etc, etc, I understand that. Say their motives were infact well-intentioned as they claim. Great. Users had zero knowledge of it. I\'m sure the majority of people thought their phones were just "old and slow" and basically were forced to spend $300-700 for a new iPhone. All because of a dumb battery that is neither removable nor is there information on the phone that explains the battery is old or what types of power management activities are taking place on the phone. So had these users known, they could have "simply" purchased a new battery. So again, even if it was well-intentioned, it is still grossly neglectful on the part of the Apple. They OBVIOUSLY knew what was taking place. They have I\'m sure dozens of marketing and finance data analytics people showing phone abandonment and new sales. And they didn\'t say anything until they were caught. Why didn\'t they promote new battery sales all along? You never hear a peep from them when someone phone is "slow" about the battery. Sorry for the rant, but this should be absolutely damming for Apple and it\'s truly too bad there\'s not a democratic Congress and/or FTC who can take them to the cleaners over this. You can be well-intentioned but be grossly negligent as they were here. Out of curiosity what do you mean "admit you were wrong" ? What were people wrong about? \n\n', 'i plug my phone in whenever im at home regardless of how much battery is remaining', '500 cycles before it begins to show considerable deterioration. There are apps that shows your cycle status and battery health.  A cicle from 1% to 100% whenever you can is recommended for good battery health. ', '3) Go with another vendor/platform', 'It would be a terrible feature. You would have a switch with "underclock CPU" on one side and "randomly reboot" on the other. Who on Earth would pick the latter?', "> Yes, this is surely reasonable compensation for hamstringing $500+ phones for numerous years.\n\nOne year, according to Geekbench's data.", 'The update was in January, so it did not coincide with a phone release.', 'Most of their major updates coincide with phone releases. This is because it’s cheaper to time software and hardware releases at the same time. The new hardware needs to be tested to work with the software so you may as well include all your fixes at the same time', 'Found the angsty teen "communist"', 'Even for free, it is still an unethical capitalist shitpen', 'These are Apple fanboys. Those people don\'t like "free". They *enjoy* paying for the privilege.\n', 'Generally good phones for the money. The Huawei skin (theme) though is not stock Android looking and is more like iOS, so it may actually suit you if coming over from Apple.', '>Put the phone speed back to normal\n\nThen it will start rebooting at random intervals. That’s the trade off with Li-poly batteries when they get old.', 'In all fairness, you don’t need to upgrade your phone. You get a new phone because you want the next big thing. I bought a Samsung s3 and was forced to upgrade just to get new android features, which was well before my friend on an iPhone 4s upgraded his. He stayed getting updates to the OS while I had to mess around with rooting it. It’s the same practice everywhere. \nTechnology improves, algorithms do their best to use every bit of processing power they can get. \n\nThey won’t support older variants of devices all the time. Apple just decided to proactively slow down the phone to make it last longer, true it’s annoying, but it’s better than having your phone die on you when you’re out somewhere.', '"forced"?', 'Yo shoot me the info on getting my Galaxy s6 battery changes for less than $30', "$29 for parts and labor is a damn good deal, especially when they guarantee that if they break something in the process, they'll just replace your whole iPhone.", ">  Less people would switch to new phones and would try switching out the battery more often.\n\nYou don't think they want people to buy new phones?\n\n> They feel a consumer electronic company should make 40-80% profit margins on literally everything they sell. Meanwhile other companies survive on 10% margins\n\nThe galaxy s8 costs about $307 to manufacturer and sold new for $750, it's not just apple.", "Fixing the problem would require new battery technology that holds equivalent charge as lithium-polymer but doesn't spike voltage when it gets old and busted.\n\nAnd I imagine all the major hardware companies are working on new, better battery tech already.", "Yes. It's been tested already.", 'The class action lawsuits will never get anywhere. Apple had to choose between an underclocked CPU and a crashing phone. With the options to hand, they actually made the choice that *extends* the useful lifespan of the phone.', 'The speaker or headphone jack can operate at a wide variety of voltage ranges.\n\nThe CPU has to operate at a particular, rigidly set clock speed. What this clock speed can be is determined by the way that the CPU is constructed.\n\nThe clock speed is dependent on the voltage the battery can supply. When the voltage is getting low, you can do one of two things:\n\nSwitch over to the lower clock speed which demands less voltage, or keep trying to run at the higher one until the voltage drops too low and then everything stops working.', "Nope. That's part of the problem.", "I'm guessing you've only skimmed through the negative comments.\n\nYes, replacing the battery removes the CPU throttling, since that was happening because the battery couldn't provide the required voltage when the cpu was at 100%.\n\nSimilar to how some brands throttled the cpu speed because the phone couldn't dissipate the heat quick enough, with no available solution.", ">maybe smartphone producers in general  could invest some of their billions into developing better batteries\n\nYou think they *don't?* ", 'The new battery will return the CPU to full speed if the phone was affected by this issue.', 'Geekbench has analysed their data and disagree with you.', 'The iPhone is the top selling smartphone in the world.', 'Probably just you is right.', 'Do the new Samsung Galaxy and Notes have them? Do the Google Pixel 2s? Does the LG G6?\n\n\nThe answer is no to all of them.', 'Better than going in and spending 800, yes?', 'Not really. It’s the reading comprehension that’s the problem and lack of logic when battery technology is explained. \n\nPlus having a future app that details battery health and changing battery replacement policy and price is a big step. Everyone is just crying me too to get free crap.\n\nBoo damn who - Apple just tried to make old ass battery’s last longer, Samsung had theirs blow up.', 'Buying a new 6s today won’t have a degraded battery, so it won’t be throttled. ', 'Because these have different generation SoCs with different power management architectures. ', "if you read the article the program doesn't go into effect until late January, presumably to train their staff and get extra batteries shipped to the stores.", 'So much this. You say the right words to the right person at Apple and you can get almost anything. Even out of warranty replaced with brand new device.', 'No. I live an hour away. It’ll be a while before I trek back into town. Turns out the discount starts in January anyway. ', 'have you tried switching to android?', 'Was that with average use? If she’s using her phone normally, 14 hours is what I’d expect the battery to last. Absolutely nothing strange there. ', 'It was at 86% and they replace after it gets below 80% so obviously not doing as well as it did when they replaced the battery in February. But whatever. ', 'Have you been following this?\n\nThe slowdown is not to prolong battery but to be able to use the phone when the battery doesn’t provide as much power. \n\nNot providing the correct power would turn the phone off, not drain the battery faster.', 'Yea but now you have an Apple warranty!', 'What country?', "But that is usually using a third party battery with no guarantee it won't break your phone later.", 'I actually googled after i saw this news and they said it was supposed to be open by now but its moved to February of 2018. In sinsadong 신사동 just in case anyones curious.\n\nIll still probably replace mine when i get back to canada in april lol', 'Is that like where woody and buzz are fruits?', 'Apple Authorized Service Centers do get certified Apple parts. We will more than likely be swamped with battery replacements at $29 a pop because of this.', "_Alexa, make a note in my Google Calendar to remind me to replace my iPhone's battery before December 2018_", "I was told by a manager on phone support that they will not replace all batteries (this was during the pre 10.2.1 days when my iPhone 6 plus was unexpectedly shitting the bed at 40% battery). He said the diag tests on my battery said it was at 74% and not eligible for a new one even if I wanted to pay full fucking price. The nerve of them. Anyway, I hope they change their tune now for others, best of luck!\n\nI'll also mention my apps would take 5-10-infinite seconds to launch, my partner refused to even use my phone because it was so fucking slow. I've since upgraded - kinda wish I had waited a couple more months ", '!RemindMe 11 months', 'Remind me 300 days!\n', 'Thanks for pointing this out, I️ just set a reminder. ', 'RemindMe! 350 days', 'RemindMe! 350 days', "In effect they still win though, because they just sold you a battery for 30 bucks (instead of the regular 50, which probably not a lot of users buy anyway, but get a new phone instead). Maybe in 5 years you'll be paying 70 for a new battery.", 'It seems to me that Apple has reframed the issue. Batteries go bad, and nobody was upset about that. \n\nWhat pissed people off is that there were slowdowns of old phone models, which  happened regardless of the health of the battery. \n\nIs my iPhone 5 (with a new battery) going to be snappy again, as it was before I upgraded the OS? \n\nApple can keep my $30 battery. ', "There's a LONG list of Apple pulling this shit.  And it's done for only two reasons...\n\n1)  To save money by not having to pay programmers to support their OS over a handful of devices.  \n\n2)  To force users to upgrade to new products.\n\nApple's lies have been very, very profitable. ", "IIRC, there was a similar issue with creating USB boots for certain hardware and software combinations.  By editing the preferences file in the installer, you could get it to bypass the system level check and continue quite happily.  Had this with my MacBook Pro 17 Inch back in the day.\n\nYour examples are more blatant than mine, but this isn't new. People tend to have short memories with Apple missteps.\n\n", "Is there a work around to install the airport application on windows that you know of? Bought one recently without knowing they'd been pushed out the door by apple...", "Perhaps it was a security issue that couldn't be resolved, so in the interest of the consumer, the decision was made to not support the older product such that the current generation would not continue to be vulnerable.\n\nThere are times when there are breaking changes in software that simply can't be resolved or supported, especially when you put hardware into the mix.\n\nNot saying that is what is going on there. Just that things are rarely as simple as we would like them to be.\n\nAlso, routers can nearly always be configured by connecting a computer directly to an ethernet port, going to 192.168.0.1 or whatever the gateway address is and logging in.", 'Right? I heard the laugh track cue right after that statement. But being an apple fanboy is kind of like being a Trump fanboy. If you still like them after all this, you are going to like them no matter what shit they pull.', "Ah yes, that's why I don't use my Apple Watch anymore. When I installed iOS 11 onto my iPhone 7+, it gorged on battery and then got stuck boot looping. I think that was as far as 11.1? I ended up going back to 10.3 and hey, my apple watch won't pair with such an old obsolete piece of crap anymore!\n\n", "How do you do this os check skip thing? I have an old copy of Logic on disk which I haven't been able to use since.. 10.7 I think? I'd love to get that working again.", "Final Cut Studio 2 had an odd phase. The applications were Intel, but the installer was Power PC. There was a stretch of time somewhere around 10.7 when they dropped Rosetta, the Power PC emulator, but the apps worked. This meant you could run Final Cut Studio fine if you installed it on 10.5 or 10.6 with Rosetta then upgraded you OS to 10.7. If you were on 10.7 you could run Final Cut Studio 2 just fine, but there wasn't a way to run the Power PC based installer.", "I have the OG Apple TV, big ugly white and silver box for netflix, hulu, iTunes music and movies etc etc. It no longer will update to current store purchases made on my families account. Literally it will not update store purchases, my dad has purchased multiple movies including Star Wars TFA & Rogue One, but I can't watch them on the device because it has been made obsolete because they have come out with multiple new generations of the device making it smaller and sleaker. My dad, mom, and I are all Samsung Galaxy devout users, and my sister is the only iPhone user, but the A-TV was a great device and although we all have disdain for Itunes, it can still provide great entertainment and ease of use. But they are such fucking liars it's unbelievable.", 'As a long time apple user, this kind of shit is exactly why I no longer support them and they can eat a bag of dicks.', 'How does the OS check work? Is it the installer that check that the OS is compatible? Then it\'s nothing unusual for it to not recognize a newer OS and refuse to install. They never stopped allowing the older version then, it just the older version that didn\'t knew supported the newer version.\n\nIt\'s like I was asking you if you knew how to use an hypothetical Windows 12. You never seen it... You probably could use it but if I asked you right now, you couldn\'t answer. Once it\'s released, sure you could answer, but for the outdated software, well he still doesn\'t know that.\n\nSure they could have updated it but then the question is, when is it still okay to support it? Do you expect the X86 version of MacOS to support their PowerPC apps? I hope not.. \n\nIn that case the check is probably useless, but it\'s also part of Apple moto "to just works". Having it there make sure that it has been proved "to just works". Personnaly I would just show a warning but in the same time, users are so dumb they would just click on it without reading... Forcing them to change the install files at least take care of that dumbness.', "I remember a similar thing way back when Mac OS 9 came out, where they said a [New World ROM](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_World_ROM) Mac was needed for the new feature of using function keys to launch applications. I added an extension that made my 8600 think it had a new world ROM, and the feature magically started working. I was annoyed that they were explicitly disabling features based on a computer's age, regardless of whether the new hardware was actually needed.", 'Pulled out ipad1 battery still good,  hey lets dl some apps...\nZero apps can be installed BTW\nPlanned obsolescence in action', "Your phone is old enough to actually need the replacement, so Apple's not going to support that.  It could cost them money!  ^/s", 'Yeah, mine dies randomly over 50% battery from time to time, which started like a year after I got it. Not to mention they completely shat on the podcaster app, removing the sleep function, and it often turns podcasts off, counting them as listened which makes me have to find where I was again.\n\nEdit: I have a 5s, so I’m not expecting to get anything from Apple, but I will probably not get another iphone in the future.', 'My 4s still works fine.', 'It just has a shitty battery. None of this drama effects it. ', 'I ALSO HAVE THIS QUESTION. So just because I couldn’t upgrade to the 6 or higher means my iPhone is obsolete in Apple’s eyes? Weak.', 'Good news!  iFixIt is offering to price match Apple\'s "deal" for older iPhones like yours.  I just saw this:\n\nhttps://www.neowin.net/news/ifixit-matches-apples-29-battery-swap-deal-adds-older-iphones-as-well\n', 'The software slowdown doesn’t affect the 5s, it only functions on the 6 and above. ', "Probably were just waiting it out until they couldn't hide it anymore...", '[Flapjack and a cigarrete?](https://i.imgur.com/XTZSpfY.gif)', 'Conserving what little cash they have for a rainy day fund. ', 'Gonna be waiting a long time for that last line request... Probably your whole life ', "They really didn't admit *they* had an issue, they admit that they communicated the decision of handling the issue (which is standard among the industry) badly.\n\nLowering the performance to prevent unexpected shutdowns is beneficial to the vast majority of users, there is nothing wrong with this. What is wrong is not communicating these things through the OS updates or not letting the user choose which way he would prefer to utilize the product.", 'To be fair the issue of batteries degrading over time isn’t exactly theirs and theirs alone.  Every phone, tablet and laptop in the world have the exact same problem and it’s not like Apple kept it a secret as they’ve offered replacement batteries for years.', 'Thats like expecting car companies to give free tires when yours wear out, because they designed their car to only work with tires. Dont be ridiculous. Batteries get old and dont work well any more, thats a fact of life. $29 is a good deal.', 'This whole mess is an avalanche of misunderstanding. There\'s no technical issue, just poor communication and overreaction.\n\nedit: I\'m wrong, the technical issue is that the iPhone 6s consumes its battery too quickly. Their response, because I\'m assuming this is a design problem that can\'t be "fixed," was to release a software update that mitigated the problem. Everyone who doesn\'t have a 6s doesn\'t have a dog in this fight.', 'Wait. Apple didn’t create the issue of degrading batteries. And their initial solution was to provide an update that would keep your phone functioning despite this inevitabliity... free of charge. \n\nThe two big problems here were Apple’s typical lack of transparency on the workings of their products - combined with an inability to communicate with consumers when questions arose, and the overreaction by a certain subsection of tech fans that proclaimed news of this update was proof of their conspiratorial rants.  Overall I think this response - both the increased performance transparency going forward *and* the cut in replacement costs - is pretty appropriate. ', 'How did they create the issue?  Batteries degrade over time, to the point of it to cuss random shutdowns. They implemented a solution to the problem. Their only failure is communication to the customer, the technical solution they have in place is the correct one. ', 'Like what?', '[citation not found]\n\nHate to be the one to interrupt the anti-Apple mob, but come on.', 'There isn\'t a software "issue" persay. Slowing the CPU to slow battery drain and early shutoffs is their interpretation of how to deal with battery health.', "> Apple needs to actually fix the issue before I trust them. \n\nSo you want Apple to invent a battery that never degrades? Or do you not want them to help reduce the impact of that degrading battery? \n\n\nOne isn't going to happen. The other is a stupid idea. \n", "It's indicative of larger exploitative and deceptive practices that occur with casual frequency in our out of control version of capitalism. That's why people are upset. \n\nThey got caught this time. And they are addressing this individual issue on which they're exposed. This will not change the fact that our system is broken.\n\n\n", 'So this whole time, when people take their iPhones into the Apple store because they\'re slow and laggy, Apple has been scratching their heads and said "welp, we can replace it for $xxx, or you could upgrade to a new one." Dishonesty, and shady business practices, that\'s the issue. Stop defending it.', "Showing the battery health should have been part of the original update, then people wouldn't have felt cheated to begin with. At least they're being more transparent now.", "Is it still classy if they waited so long to address the issue that a national consumer protection agency decided they needed to act - which means they needed to actual proof first?\n\nDon't get me wrong, this is the right move for apple to make. They just should have made it a while ago. ", 'People who like iPhones will keep buying iPhones. People who like Android phones will keep buying Android phones. And people on /r/technology will keep making posts about how iPhones are obviously inferior devices hand-crafted by the devil himself.\n\nAnd life will move on.', "The problem is that the second its over they'll act like it never happened and continue whatever they were doing before. This sort of battery replacement should be standard. ", "Classy I guess, If reasonable time period means after you're caught even though this has been suspected for a long time,if they apologized for something they did and not a mistake, if everyone gets a small discount on a battery after tons more already upgraded phones because theirs got artificially slow,if they pledged to do better rather than pledge to do worse as they always have. Yep classy move apple.", "So it's a classy move to be all pro-consumer after being caught?\n\nmight as well praise a serial killer if they acted great after getting caught. ", 'No they should completely rework the software that does this so that someone who never updates their iPhone doesn\'t have a faster and longer lasting product than the person who trusts the updates. Then there would be absolutely 0 to Say, but instead they offer free battery replacements which for most "slowed down" phones isn\'t what\'s causing the problem.\n\nThey\'ve outdated the outrage, and you\'ve used it as an opportunity to feel high and mighty.', 'Free IPhone Xs? No no, obviously the whole company needs to be shut down and the leaders lynched on international television.', 'Jesus Christ... ', 'I literally just got my dad an iPhone 6 Plus, so this is great for me. Will bring it in next month to get him his $29 battery replacement.', 'Hid it for years, fucked over consumers for massive profit, douchebag move by Apple.', "As opposed to whom ?. Apple fanboys ? that will accept and defend them forever ?. They just got caught that's why they are doing this PR move. They would continue their normal practices, if no one said anything. ", 'So they intentionally sabotage their products and they get a pass now because they said sorry?', 'With gold leaf edging and our individual nick names we had back in the third grade, edged on the side in ancient Navajo. ', 'They could have done this a long, long time ago. Got caught with their hands in the cookie jar.', "You think it's ok for them to generate revenue with this? ", "I'm not even an iPhone user but if you really believe it was slowed to help battery performance that is pretty naive... i am sure this was all planned from the beginning and that they would be able to use the battery issue as a cover with some truth to it ", "> So they're making a profit on this nonsense now?\n\n$29 is likely right around the cost of the battery itself. Given that they aren't exactly easy to replace, and that Apple has to pay someone ~$20 an hour to perform the replacement, they are likely taking a loss.\n\n>Can you imagine an automobile recall that charged customers to fix the problem, after the problem was intentionally made?\n\nBatteries degrade over time. Would you rather your device run a bit slower or suddenly shut off? Those are the options. No problem was intentionally made, it's simple chemistry.", "> So they're making a profit on this nonsense now?\n\nBattery replacement is normal $80, now it is $29, they are making far less then they would have otherwise.", 'Replace your battery.', 'Just like they banned apps that let us see the health of our own batteries when they released this “feature”. ', 'Alleged by you, that is. You don’t have evidence, I assume. ', 'How?', 'Apple has been lying for the majority of their life time', 'I wonder if they do this on iPads and/or Macs?', 'But less than you were going to...So trust us again! ', 'Well it’s not like they _needed_ to apologize. They were trying to do their best to keep your phone from unexpected shutdowns. It’s not like they slowed them down ONLY so you’d buy a new one. But everyone just freaked the fuck out over this news. So they’re trying to save face. ', 'If you have a Mac you can install coconut battery to see iDevice battery health. How much it can hold, what it held as a factory new device, and how many charge cycles the battery has had.\n\nEdit: worth noting it is a free app with a paid version with some different functions. At least it used to be free when I was a cell phone repair tech.', '"Early in 2018, we will issue an iOS software update with new features that give users more visibility into the health of their iPhone’s battery, so they can see for themselves if its condition is affecting performance."', "Battery Life by RBT digital. I'm jailbroken so the app shows extra data like cycles but you should at least see the total capacity.", 'Sure, its called Android.', '> now the open apology letter (December 28, 2017), is DISHONEST PR damage control.\n\nPartly.\n\nGuess what they just did by trying to make up for this? They get you into an Apple Store. Not even for free, either. \n\nHow many thousands will be upsold once in store? "Oh there\'s more going on here than the battery, this phone is so old also wow it doesn\'t have the latest version of our secure thingamabob to keep your data safe, hmm wow can\'t believe you\'re willing to put $29 into this when you could get the iPhone X for zero down..."\n\n$29 my ass. Even their apologies are fucking greedy. ', "It's even worse than a lack of transparency. Starting around June 2016, Apple began to make it very difficult for app developers to extract battery information from iDevices, and even went so far as to ban some battery health apps from the app store. They've been actively hiding and obfuscating user accessible data for some reason.\n\nI agree with you that they made the battery a scapegoat for planned obsolescence: tie the performance of the phone to a consumable that expires on average when a new device is announced, then hide the status of the consumable so people don't realize that things would be peachy if they just changed the battery.", 'They handled it wrong by not telling people, but to claim that it was solely done to upsell is slightly far fetched.\n\nIf their options were to have phones randomly shut off, or throttle - then clearly a throttle prolongs the life more.\n\nWhen my iPhone 5s started shutting down randomly I was contemplating a new phone. It wasn\'t until a friend of mine told me that you can change the battery for $10 and it\'s like new that I didn\'t bother.\n\nI\'d arguably have a slower phone that lasts 12 hours on battery, than a faster phone that lasts 8 hours and randomly shuts down.\n\nBut they should have just shown a popup where the user can select "yes, throttle my phone" or "no, I want a faster phone and I understand it\'ll shut off randomly"', 'LOL, partly intending.', 'This isn’t natural science. Occam’s razor doesn’t apply. ', 'Intention and result are not synonymous. Apple’s intention was to prevent phones from shutting down randomly. This is a completely reasonable statement. Slower phones happen to also encourage people to upgrade. **These statements are not mutually exclusive.**', 'So I’m a tech at a retail store. We have zero incentive to upsell a phone. We weren’t aware of CPU throttles, and the only time we recommend buying a new device is when the cost for an out of warranty replacement of an entire device reaches like $300. \n\nIf someone comes in for battery life, the first thing you do is run a diagnostic and if the battery fails you either replace it under warranty or offer the service for $79 out of warranty. No tech at my store would ever even think to recommend new ownership before even attempting to run a diagnostic for battery symptoms alone. ', 'Complete bullshit. Currently looking at the battery section in my settings app and there is no information here about the current health of my battery. ', "Yeah. I held it, almost did, but it wasn't for me. I want my S5 back. \n\nHow have you liked it?", 'Almost every phone has a replaceable battery if you have the right tools.', "People should also be taking account of this even if the battery isn't user-removable. Even if it's not designed to be changed on the go, if companies provide good official batteries at a reasonable cost, and they can be changed easily by a repair shop, that's also important. ", 'LG G5 here, same deal', 'I bought this phone specifically because its the last, most modern smartphone with one', "> You can't have waterproof/resistance + removable batteries.\n\nMy s5 active didn't have a problem having both of those features.", "> why anyone would be outraged that phones don't have removable batteries. What purpose would it serve?\n\nIn some parts of the world, it's normal to get an extra battery whenever you buy a new phone, in case you're out and about and not able to charge it. I know some people who swap out their dead battery for a charged one a couple times a week.", 'That’s not true, the galaxy S5 had a removable battery and had some level of water resistants. It had a small rubber seal that sealed to the back cover. It wasn’t something you would go diving with, but it had 1 meter for 30 mins rating. ', '> What purpose would it serve?\n\n1. Reset the phone when it hard-locks (it still happens).\n1. You can be *really* sure your phone is off.\n1. You can replace it yourself without leaving it for hours/days.', "Personally, I'd rather have replaceable batteries vs. waterproof phones.  Never once have I been in a situation where water resistance has ever been an issue (and if I do end up in that situation, it's because of my own carelessness with my phone).  \n\nBattery degradation is something that is largely out of my control, as even lightly used batteries degrade over time.  \n\n ", "Difference between paying for the battery vs paying for the battery+labour to replace it. The 15 mins it takes for them to do it isn't cheap.", "> You can't have waterproof/resistance + removable batteries. \n\nIt is not true. Japanese phones have been waterproof and removeable battery ever  since apple release iphone 3g. ", 'https://www.gsmarena.com/motorola_defy-3514.php \nMotorola Defy - released 2010, removable battery and water proof', "You can carry 2-4 fully charged batteries with you, or store easily accessibly. When your battery is getting low you can easily swap them and have full charge without having to charge it for 1-2 hours.\n\nI think this might run the performance down more over time (in theory). People would be able to use their phone more, potentially running down the life of the actual hardware inside? I don't know much about how iPhones work, though, would be interesting to see if it did. At the same time, batteries wouldn't degrade as fast as they do now because a handful of people would be swapping between 2-4 batteries. Don't think it'd make *that* much of a difference.", 'Yeah or I could order it online and not actually have to go to the store and replace it at my home', '"Sorry, we no longer offer repairs for that device."', 'What is this ... **STORE** ... you speak of?', "I used to be able to work on my car. It's a lot more difficult to do that now with all the advancements in tech. Yeah they're cool but I still buy old vehicles so I can have the freedom to do the work myself or pay somebody else to do it. The removal of my ability as a consumer to do what I like with my stuff that I paid my money for is something that concerns me. Maybe there's a third party battery that's better, or I don't want to have to pay somebody to replace the battery and have to say I don't want to hear a sales pitch on why I should upgrade. Saying 'Big whoop' doesn't make that point of view any less valid.", "Why does it need all that shit anyway, if I'm going diving I sure as hell wont bring my phone.", "I ordered my replacements for my Note II from Amazon, and got two Anker batteries and a stand alone charger for $15.  \n\nDidn't even have to leave the house and replacing the battery was as simple as popping the back cover off my phone.  \n\nCompare that to the discounted $29 price for a single iPhone battery for an iPhone 6 with a manufacturing defect which will cause it to shut down randomly if iOS doesn't underclock the processor once the replacement battery hits 80% capacity again.   At that point, the choice will be either to upgrade the battery once again or replace the device.", 'Are you being serious?\n\nI had a Galaxy Note 3 and when the battery degraded, I simply bought a new one on Amazon. When it arrived I click the back case off, take old battery out and insert new one. Instant improvement.\n\nHow is having to goto a store and pay (an excessive amount I might add) the same?\n\nNow I have a Samsung Galaxy S7 Edge and the process of opening it up has the potential to stop the water-proofing not to mention a high cost.. Replacing this battery is simply not feasible and thus my phone will be a paperweight soon. ', "Third party batteries that are just as good if not better than the original are about $10-$15. I keep an extra with me for those times I'm not near an outlet and use my phone heavily. \nApple was charging, what? $79?", 'For my last phone that had a removeable battery I replaced it for 15€ and it had more capacity than the original. Now you pay out of your ass for the battery AND the work instead of doing it yourself in 5 seconds.', '> Rarely are phones both water resistant \n\nI just put mine in a sandwich bag in my pocket when I go outside and will be around water.', 'Hmmmm people around me must ALL have defective phones. I am not going to bother arguing with an Apple cult follower. ', "You replaced it after 2 years right after the update that slowed down your phone.\n\nAmazing you didn't run into this issue.  /s", 'Thanks for sharing. I am glad the one comment I decided to read was civil. The adhesive scares me. Mainly for putting it back together. Will the remaining be enough? Is it compromised because it was heated and separated? Do I need more adhesive? I have repaired far more complicated things but it only involved screws.  ', 'But you do get functionality by not having removable batteries. Higher rated water resistance... so how is that choosing thinness over functionality? Your argument doesn’t make sense to me.', "And I actually don't like the thinness, you only need to get it to a certain point and after that it just make the phone harder to carry. I think we did went past that point.", "My S5 was close to waterproof. I don't drop mine in water. My S5 lasted all day. When it doesn't in a year and a half, guess what, $29 and 5 seconds of my time. \n\n>I never in my life changed battery my phone.  \n\nThen you got a new phone. I don't need a new phone every year. NONE of them really do anything new. ", "Can I get the one that's longer than a rats dick please?", 'Absolutely legit price for a short as fuck single cable', "Monopoly? There's plenty of other phone manufacturers.", 'What monopoly? You can change the battery yourself if you feel like it, and you can buy third party cables.', 'Monopoly? Do you know what a monopoly is?', 'People said that about the iPhone 6 and here we are..', 'I think the jump in device performance each year used to be really large and is now starting to asymptote. So, running iPhone 5 iOS on a 3Gs is different than running iPhone 8 iOS on an iPhone 6s. ', 'My iPhone 6 suddenly closing apps whenever I switched to another was a MAJOR factor to getting a new phone.\n\nI literally couldn’t even do an OAuth Safari (think Facebook) login because after logging in, the app that I was logging into had closed and I’d have to start the whole process over again.', 'Lol. $500 for every person who bought an iPhone? Get real ', "The people defending apple are the reason they know they can get away with this shit. It's a cult like fan-base. I thought they lost touch years ago, all this news is sort of confirming that. ", "Apple's PR force undoubtedly. I mean, we know all major companies employ these sorts for social media. This is a big deal and France is pursuing a lawsuit against them. They've got to get ahead of the problem from all angles. ", 'Why just this year?', "Are people actually now conditioned to buy every apple product and accept whatever Apple does? This whole thing pisses me off. The company literally admitted that they screw you over and people don't even care any more. They just can't wait to buy the next one. ", 'Let\'s be real here, with this shit show would you take the credit? Or just chalk up the loss (you will still be out a few hundred) sell your "new" phone and go to a different phone manufacturer? ', 'Preventing sudden shutdowns counts as keeping the phone functional...', 'Lol go to /r/apple if you wanna see mental gymnastics ', "But that's what planned obsolescence is: you're not forced, just highly encouraged because your device is being forced to fail.", 'But did he know? Or did he just see his phone becoming less and less usable?', "Phones are disposable nowadays, they aren't made to last and the companies place a massive onus on upgrading as frequently as possible to get that extra megapixel", "That's the narrative they promote these days. I remember it all started with a study that discovered phones slowing down (thus people searching for a cause online) right around the annual new model releases.\n\nIt would be one hell of a coincidence for all these batteries to begin slowing down precisely as the new model his the stores.", "Yea no. Keep the oldest os on it possible and it won't slow down ", 'I hope this update includes the option to see the battery percentage in the status bar instead of having to use control center every time.', 'Will they add the ability to see processor clock speed? \n\n*No.*\n\nWill they remove the CPU DasherX app from the Apple Store?\n\n*All signs point to yes.*', 'This information is also found in the system info natively why is a third party app needed?', "all battery apps on the app store are absolutely useless. If an app on the app store could tell you how healthy your battery was Apple would've probably already had their own battery app by now.", "> I've certainly never really heard of an epidemic of iPhone random shutdowns.\n\n\nhttps://www.apple.com/support/iphone6s-unexpectedshutdown/\n\nIdk if I’d call it an epidemic but they do have a program for unexpected shutdown on the iPhone 6s. I’ve seen the issue both on my iphones and my girlfriends iPhone’s over the years. Generally after the phone turns 2.5-3 years old and only if our phones are on the latest software.", 'Not a fanboy but FWIW after two or three years of use my iPhone 5 did start shutting down at 20+ percent capacity when using GPS or anything that drew the battery more. I also know a couple other people whose iPhones did this after having had it for a while.\n\nAlso iPhones need recharging about once a day already with the higher energy density batteries. My iPhone SE could last two days a few iOS releases ago and when it was new. Now it’s about once every 22 to 30 hours, too. If the battery had a lower capacity, I suppose that would make the phone even more uncomfortable to use right out of the box. (Or a few grams heavier to compensate for lower energy density I guess?)', 'Username checks out.', 'Linus Tech Tips talked about this briefly, and their theory was that Apple was prioritizing CPU clock speeds over battery longevity, essentially red-lining the CPU performance and generating heat that the battery had to absorb, which caused the battery to degrade much faster.', "> why is Apple the only company that has to throttle their phone processors significantly in order to 'prevent unexpected shutdowns'?\n\nGoogle allows the unexpected shutdowns and refuses to even acknowledge that there is a problem. Lol, what you gonna do about it?", 'I have a Droid Turbo 2. Before I finally buckled and replaced the battery the phone was routinely shutting off with any kind of app load at ~52%. I would have welcomed throttling over having my phone constantly crash.', 'Yeah, and they like to push updates of heir new OS that drains the batteries for older phones faster, thus compounding the issue', "> The real issue is, why is Apple the only company that has to throttle their phone processors significantly in order to 'prevent unexpected shutdowns'?\n\nThey aren't. Many other phones throttle or shutdown unexpectedly.", ">It sounds like apple needs to better optimize their OS\n\n...that's what this update is. It's optimizing to not go full-throttle when the phone is in danger of zeroing out.", "They aren't the only company doing this.  For example, my OnePlus 5 doesn't allow you to use the camera flash when the battery is low.\n\nSome of the phones that don't do this are experiencing huge early shutdown problems.  My previous phone was a Nexus 6P, and it's early shutdown problems were so bad that I had to get a new phone.  I'm pretty sure Google is even being sued over it.", 'Not big into electronics, are ya? ;)', 'Android has a battery saver mode that switches off various features when the battery charge reduces below 15%. Phone definitely feels slower when this mode is on. You can manually turn if off (and on if you desire) at any point.', "Imo throttling the cpu to prevent a sudden shutdown is a technological feat. I just wish that they didn't really expect that it would cause widespread cpu throttling and slowing down devices for a long period of time. Unfortunately this is highly unlikely.", "It is because the issue is not about current delivery, and is more about poor power delivery hardware, or a bad voltage curve, or the developers never took into account the changing ESR of the battery over time.\n\nMost other smartphones from competing manufacturers do not run into these issues because battery suppliers provide full characterization of their batteries. The max current output does not drop by much over the useful life of the battery, and even near the end of the useful life, most smartphone batteries can supply 40+ watts of power if you short them. The overall issue is not about max current, as even with the display at max brightness and the SOC at 100% load, an iphone wont even pull 5 watts from the battery. you effectively have a power source that delivers an order of magnitude more current than the device can ever pull, and over time that max current output will only be reduced by a small amount.\n\nTypically a sudden shutdown or reboot while under a sudden heavy load, is the result of the LLC not compensating enough for the few nanoseconds of voltage drop that will happen when the CPU suddenly ramps up to its max clock speed and does a ton of work. The protection mechanism will often cause them to suddenly shutdown.\n\nYou can even create a similar issue to this for yourself. For example with some of the 6th gen intel CPUs on some slimmer laptops, some people will try to maintain their boost clock speed by modding the bios to unlock more control over voltages, and then undervolt the CPU in order to reduce temperatures.\n\nWhen you do this, there is a interesting situation that you will encounter, you will have an undervolt that is fully stable under AIDA64 stress test, as well as prime 95 under windows 7; stress tests done under various linux distros will also be stable, but under windows 10, you would get random reboots as if there was a complete loss of power for a fraction of a second.\nBut that issue will go away if you adjust the power management to be in performance mode and hold the CPU at its max non boost clock speed, and turbo boost under load.\n\nThe reason for the problem turns out to be with the CPU drivers, the ones for windows 10 supports a new feature that allows the CPU to reach its max clock speed in a fraction of the time compared to the old drivers and that causes a larger than normal voltage dip which the VRMs cannot compensate for in time. When such an issue happens, you have to increase the voltage, or if you can adjust the LLC, then have a higher idle voltage so that the voltage dip during the clock speed increase does not drop to a level where the CPU resets.\n\nI have a strong feeling that the same issue may be present with the iphone, and there are likely 2 solutions that can them to keep using the older battery, without slowing the device down, and one that would have a very tiny performance loss that would not be noticeable for most use cases.\n1, Increase the CPU voltage slightly.\n2, Have a slightly different voltage curve for the LLC to compensate for the voltage dip during the clock speed increase.\n\n3, Slightly increase the length of time needed for the CPU to reach its maximum clock speed.\n\n\nOverall, I feel that Apple's solution to the issue was one that aimed to use the solution to one issue as a mask for planned obsolescence.\n\nEven at $30, apple will still make a profit from replacing the batteries, and the hassle of having to deal with the replacement process may be enough to at least make a small number of those users still choose to purchase a newer model. \n\nPS, if peak current delivery is an issue, powering some external devices through the lightning port should cause more shutdowns, but it doesn't). The issue overall is with with power rail supplying the CPU.", 'My thoughts exactly. I never heard about the unexpected shutdowns until now. Something does not add up. ', "All of the most popular flagships don't have easily replaceable batteries.\n\nI think you're stuck in the Android 3.X days, or perhaps way back in the Nokia era.", "The controversy is a phone shouldn't randomly crash at 80% battery capacity.  \n\nThis is a manufacturing defect being disguised as an old battery issue.  I say it's a manufacturing defect because the iPhone 6 random shutdown issue prompted Apple to change its AppleCare battery replacement policy in 2015 to replace batteries with 80% or less capacity rather than the 50% capacity previously required.\n\nhttps://www.macrumors.com/2015/06/29/applecare-mac-batteries-80-percent/", "It's a 4 year old phone and the iOS update that enabled the throttling came out less than a year ago.", 'You are feeling left out in the cold over a 4 year old device that you can fairy easily change the battery yourself on?', "What apple should have done is be open about it:  Once the battery has degraded to the point where the system needs to be throttled, the user should be informed of this fact.  But they didn't. And people with slow phones chalked it up to being an old model, not because the battery is limiting the system.  \n\nBasically, Apple caused this by not being open and honest in the first place.  ", 'Or you know. Risk of data loss. That’s a huge one. ', 'Exactly. The two options are:\n\n1.\tExperience random shutdowns\n2.\tUnder peak usage have slightly faster loading times\n\nI know what I am picking any day of the week.', 'Yeah, I shook my head every time someone suggested that.', 'dont care. dont slow the device OS down, its not ethical. ', 'Their first and only post in 6 months is defending Apple and reads like a corporate copy/paste. Probably a bought account. ', "You're both right. ", 'Why are you so downvoted lmao ', 'More like "your shit is old and fucked up. You need new battery. Here\'s the slowdown of your whole phone."\n\nThey are solving wrong problems. Old battery is problem and can be replaced for $75, but man, shiny new iPhone is $1000.', 'They lie they trottled iPhone 4s way before that ', 'The shutdowns only start occurring after updating to iOS 10 (which is why they had to make the fix in the first place). \n\nApple hasn’t really said what it was in iOS 10, but it’s probably because the new OS was more demanding on the processor and battery.\n\nSomething in iOS 10 caused the voltage of the battery to drop to unusable levels and the device to shut off.', 'The shutdowns only start occurring after updating to iOS 10 (which is why they had to make the fix in the first place). \n\nApple hasn’t really said what it was in iOS 10, but it’s probably because the new OS was more demanding on the processor and battery.\n\nSomething in iOS 10 caused the voltage of the battery to drop to unusable levels and the device to shut off.', 'They allowed the slow down in order to hide the fail rate of their phones while making people want to upgrade at the same time. The two go hand in hand. ', 'Proof for that claim that the new batteries they install are bad, or you just going to circlejerk the Apple hate train like the rest of these /r/technology fuckheads?', "My phone is over 3 years old and the battery was going. I'm replacing it because it's time for it to be replaced. I've done the same with laptops. It just costs me less money now.", 'The device is over 3 years old.. With any device, not just Apple, the same phone battery for 3 years (assuming he’s never changed it) can experience severe degradation.  I’d be happy too to find out I can replace an old phone battery for much cheaper than originally intended.', 'His battery dying has nothing to do with this controversy ', 'Fucked him over for years? Not this again, the slowdown only occurred after the 10.2.1 patch and a battery replacement confirms it as much. You seem a bit ahead of yourself saying they fucked him over for years. ', 'They kept his phone working.', 'Apple wrote code to make his older phone last longer and then gives him a deal to make it run faster and you\'re calling it "Apple intentionally fucking him over"?  Really?\n\nApple haters are the biggest suckers on the planet.', 'Every phone has battery issues after some time. Every one. Apple is not the only company who uses LiIon batteries. Apple did not make his battery go bad. That’s just how those batteries work. Cut the circlejerk. ', 'I’ve owned four iPhones, but I’ve only ever bought one(the rest are hand-me-downs from family who upgraded). \n\nJust saying, someone owning an iPhone6 isn’t necessarily an actual customer of apple. \n\nNot to say that this isn’t exactly the problem(I’ve had those four phones within four years, a year is not a good time for a phone to last), just that I don’t think it’s fair to call anyone who owns an apple product a sucker, there’s tons of people who have them used from third parties. ', "> They'll happily take in a steady stream of $29's where their batteries wouldn't even cost this amount. \n\nWhat about labour?", "> If your iPhone is older than 5 years, this is nice\n\nIf your iPhone is older than 5 years, it isn't covered under this deal. It's for 6's and up.", "Agreed.\n\nI think Apple's apology letter is dishonest.\n\nThey throttled on the sly, thinking that no one would catch them, so that they could: \n\n- prevent the random shutdowns, and thus reduce in-warranty-replacements of batteries,\n\n- older phones become mysteriously slow, and thus push people to buy new iPhones.", "Then why all the outrage for just Apple?  No flagship phones have batteries that you can replace because it's easier to make the phone thinner and have water resistance if you don't. ", "Uh...The battery is replaceable. Am I taking crazy pills here? Did anyone read the article or Apple's statement? Or the fact that YOU CAN REPLACE YOUR BATTERY FOR $79 at the apple store. And starting in January it will only cost $29? And you can buy kits to replace your battery by yourself by purchasing a kit from ebay/amazon/anywhere. or take it to any phone shop and they can replace it for you. ", 'You mean like a clutch?', "Do you want it water resistant, too? I'd take water resistance over an easily replaceable battery. You can't have both.", "And it is replaceable? Go watch a YouTube video it's dead simple. I'd actually argue that replacing the battery is easier than a oil change or battery change. Lifting that 40lbs battery straight up with your arms with no assist is simply not possible for most people. ", "quangdog is clearly trying to sooth his cognitive dissosance over his brand loyalty to apple.\n\nHow could people possibly think that a company known for it's attention to detail, would just completely overlook the issue of lithium battery degradation?\n\nIt isn't like it is a new revelation, battery degradation has been known for many years. They would know their phones could not keep running at the speeds they sold them at once the batteries degraded **as the normally and unexpectedly do.**\n\nSo they used this to their advantage, by then artificially reducing CPU speed to artificially increase demand for new phones.\n\nEvery other manufacturer builds in a margin of error to account for battery degradation. Apple decides not to build it in when they sell it, they choose sell it running a speed that it could not possibly maintain, and then artificially limit later through software.\n\nThey **designed** the phone to run at inflated speeds out of the box, knowing they would have to later reduce its to prevent shutoffs. ", 'Because it as benefits.', "They were. The notes about the power management were in the release notes. https://support.apple.com/kb/DL1893?locale=en_US They're not making it a show. They're releasing a statement.", 'The guy with the phone that randomly shuts down probably werent thinking of buying a new one', "I just checked my Macbook Air's capacity using coconut battery, it's at 76% of the original manufacturing capacity after 1,026 cycles. Sounds pretty good to me.", 'Sure. But now your iPhone 8 is $1200 instead of $700 because of the high end battery... But it will last 1000 cycles instead of 500.\n\nThen people complain about the Apple tax.', 'What exactly does a cycle mean for someone who tends to leave their laptop plugged in most of the time when its used?', '> Make that 450+ number close to 1,000 and I\'m satisfied. Batteries should "survive" more than 450+ cycles. And I expect often they do.\n\nPhysics / Chemistry.  Good luck with that many cycles with common current laptop battery technology.\n\n> they said they had improved batteries to last something like 2,000 cycles.\n\nI call B.S.  Source, and I\'ll eat my words.\n\n', 'https://support.apple.com/kb/DL1893?locale=en_US Look at release 10.2.1. What do you read?', "That's a *LOT* of cycles for a MacBook Pro.  I generally find that I have to replace mine between 4-600 cycles.... but I work my machines pretty hard with video/photo production as well as compiling software.  If my battery is not healthy, and I kick off a compile, it's good odds that the thing will just turn off mid-compile. When I know my battery is weak, I make sure to plug in before I do something that I know will hammer the power needs of the system.", 'I bet your truck list some horsepower', 'My laptop is an Apple product, which I *do* consider to be premium.  I *don\'t* expect a premium product to just turn off when one of the consumables wears out.  This leads to frustration at best and data loss at worst. I personally hope that they bring a scaling power usage scheme to the desktop OS asap, along with more transparency regarding the health of the battery and alerts that begin to appear when your battery begins to struggle to keep up with the load.\n\nI\'ll note that the items you mention also have consumables in them - the desktop PC has a BIOS battery, trucks... well, yeah ... maybe not the TV.  My 11 year old Sony TV also still runs like a champ.  If we could somehow wave a magic wand at physics and make batteries retain their charge/discharge capacity indefinitely, then this would not be an issue, and no "slowing" would need to occur.  \n\nBut physics wins, so we have to deal with it the best we can. I think that Apple\'s approach is reasonable, and honestly don\'t really understand what all the anger is about, except hur dur Apple suxorzzzz.', "That's what he said. Laptop just shuts down, without warning.", 'It kind of seems like if a valet parking attendant joyrode your car, you caught them with your dashcam, and the valet place gave you some 50% off car wash coupons as an apology. Also, a new battery for my Samsung phone is $9 and I can replace it myself in 15 seconds.', 'I don’t think it’s even about ‘getting caught’ in a sense. I don’t think they’ve really done anything wrong. It’s a shame that the media is so focused on selling the story and making money off outrage. \n\nEssentially all Apple are dealing with here is bad PR. They made some software changes to improve the user experience, preventing unexpected shutdowns at the end of a devices life, actually in an attempt to increase a devices usable lifespan. This fits into their core iOS systems at a fundamental level, and with many other systems like that, it fits with their design philosophy to not involve the user to make the device as simple and easy to understand as possible. That design philosophy is Apple’s key principle and has been for decades.\n\nThis has been massively misunderstood and I don’t think Apple have done anything wrong. They just struck a nerve, where people don’t like being ripped off so they buy the newest, most expensive product.\nThe fact that the slow down issue goes away when the battery is replaced on the old phone shows this really isn’t the intent.\n\nI don’t see how Apple have done anything wrong. This isn’t like Volkswagen Emissions Scandal, or Comcast lying about ‘unlimited’ data caps or anything similar.\nYet even so, Apple respond quickly and with significant solutions to the issues people have. ', 'Apple fanboy here, I completely agree with you. Just give them /something/ to make the masses happy until it dies off...', "I've seen both hate and praise on Apple here.", 'The 6 top comments in this thread right now are praising or defending apple. \n\nThe 7th is not hating apple but voicing dislike for shitty business practices (which apple partakes in).\n\nThe victim complex from apple users is real.', "LoL the rest of the world is typing away on cheaper, better Windows products. Not over priced Apple shit. \n\nIf It wasn't for school districts buying Apple they wouldn't have much of a consumer market. \n\nAnd if school districts were smart they would invest in Windows and Android products for a fraction of the cost that do the same exact fucking thing.", "That's Apple's spin on the obvious.  Why do phones that are around 60-80% battery life that haven't been updated to the latest iOS not experience any negative effects other than a lower overall battery life?  What exactly is Apple protecting you from other than having to charge your battery a couple hours sooner?   \n\nOnce the phone starts randomly shutting down, it's time to either replace the battery or upgrade the phone.  Why was Apple trying to hide the battery issues?", 'Well this sub is nothing but clickbaits mostly.', 'Currently at -13. It’s like one of the most profitable companies in the world can afford the PR machine. ', 'So many company threads. Once they themselves get the ball rolling, expected behavior does the rest. Couple the habit of going with the vote flow along with a large number of people who love to think they\'ve figured out something that all these articles and threads haven\'t. And look, for once comments that go against what everyone is saying are on top! This is my thread to feel superior!\n\nThe software stays the same, unupdated phones run faster and longer, and owners of models earlier than the 6 (the ones who actually need this battery) are not eligible. This is outdating an outrage, making a thread with a narrative, and letting people go "ooh I knew my feelings were right!"\n\nbury me and prove the point.', "Why do you think I do not understand the issue you don't know me?", 'A smart phone that contains $200 worth of components, mind you. \n\n(The iPhone X is estimated to contain $370 worth of components.)', "Yeah but if your auto manufacturer caused your battery to die they'd release a recall and you'd get it for free.\n\nI was literally coming back to make an edit to my post with that exact example.", 'If it is a battery issue, you can still get it replaced, it would just be the normal $79. ', 'It\'s not bullshit. It\'s chemistry, not just that it\'s a trade-off. You either have full clock speed with less battery life and random shutdowns because you request more voltage than the battery can supply, or you slow the clock down, which lowers the required voltage, and inheritly increase the use of the battery. There is no ifs or buts about it.\n\nI specifically said it\'s not a feature, because it\'s not. It\'s not a scam seeing as replacing the battery solves the issue. Stop trying to spin this as anti-consumer\n\n"iLove" glasses lmao....you literally dismissed the whole point that EVERY cpu does this in one form or another...and you think I\'m being biased?\n\nUmm, your car does get slower as it ages....that\'s a fact. And if you want to directly compare it to computer logic, every cars engine control module SLOWS DOWN your car when the supply of energy is DEGRADED. So please, stop acting like you understand.\n\nLol again you dismiss something you don\'t agree with because it doesn\'t fit your view.', "You don't have the facts straight, and this is why this shit pisses me off. \n\nIt DOES NOT slow down EVERY phone. At least read the story before solidifing headlines as fact. It monitors the battery proactively, it has nothing to do with the model, and everything to do with the battery. Which is why when you replace it, it fixes the issue. Jesus, why do you think they are offering a discount on battery replacement?\n", 'True gaslight. ', "Or you know, Apple could acknowledge the manufacturing defects that cause the iPhone 6 and iPhone 6s to reboot randomly at 80% or lower battery capacity.  The only issue with an 80% capacity battery should be lower battery life, not a voltage issue severe enough to shut down a processor.  At 40% or lower capacity, sure,but even then, it shouldn't be happening every couple of minutes.", 'This. Why are they forcing customers to upgrade an iOS on a phone they know can’t handle it? They can easily just... not push that software to that model.', 'You must sleep with a iPhone rammed up your assume. ', 'I suppose what I meant is have Apple phones EVER allowed their batteries to be replaced by the users? It seems ro me that a consumable part should be replaced by the user of the device.', 'plus the labor', "You don't understand the issue. ", 'At $29 per replacement, I doubt they’re profiting off this. It takes the employee time to replace the battery, plus the part, and overhead.  ', "Then go to a third party. O wait, they'll charge you more than Apple in this case. ", "They'll just slow it down some more to extend the battery life again.\n\nHow nice of them!", "> Thats the thing, its not bullshit as replacing the battery solves the issue completely.\n\nI'll bet you anything it doesn't.", "I was just joking. It's joined my graveyard of old phones in a dresser.", "I have a Google Nexus that still runs great. I think you're trolling. ", 'Alright. However, I think a more cordial and constructive dialog to enlighten me on the subject, instead of a berating comment, would be more helpful in explaining why you hold this opinion. \n\nThank you. 🤗', "Android absolutely updates their operating systems, they just don't cripple older hardware like Apple does. ", 'Replaceable battery, please.', 'Why not both? ', 'Cuz I’m weird ', 'Apple consumers are sheep.', 'Or maybe just buy a new battery on Amazon for $30. But as the reply to your comment noted, Apple will replace it for $30 and you guys eat it up.', 'Sorry my point is that the full price is pretty hefty when you consider that they know this happens to all of their phones within a time frame that’s barely the length of a minimum contract with a network.\n\nAt $79 are they breaking even as a courtesy to their customers for the fact that battery technology isn’t good enough for the requirements of the phone mid-longer term, or are they profiting off of this?\n\nE: Also, if it’s a consumable it should be made much easier to both buy and replace by the owner of the phone.', 'Haha. \nYeah reading my comment I can see how you’d think that. \nMy bad! ', 'This is not a justification. The news about crashing iPhones broke [months ago](https://techcrunch.com/2017/02/23/apple-says-ios-10-2-1-has-reduced-unexpected-iphone-6s-shutdown-issues-by-80/). This is the fix.', 'I thought Li-Ion was the new shiz?\n\nPS. I have never heard of a single MacBook/MacBookPro/MacBookAir doing this to protect its CPU? I believe they use the same Li-Poly battery tech...', "How old are iPhone 6/6s ???\n\nThat doesn't seem like much of a lifespan? People out there reporting original iPhone and iPhone 4/5 still going strong?!", 'Can I also mention the app called Boost for Reddit, which is another fantastic Reddit app (and now probably my favourite). We are spoilt for great Reddit apps though!', 'If by worst, you meant completely accurate, I agree.', 'They chose dishonestly underclocking the CPU to disguise a manufacturing defect causing random shut downs with batteries as much as 80% capacity left that conveniently slows down your phone and makes it look like an iPhone 3GS next to the latest and greatest iPhone.\n', 'No i have a laptop and all the phones since they started, loving the sheep downvotes btw', 'Wow, lots of mental issues, or too much caffeine with this one. \n\nI’m hardly a fanboy, but whatever makes you feel better. \n\nI’ve owned my iPhone for 3 years, and only in the last 2 months have I noticed this issue. And it’s just a stutter- sometimes an app will crash, which reminded me more of the android experience I had years ago. \n\nI was going to replace my battery anyway, and now Apple will do it for a decent price. \n\nIf this really rustles your jimmies, I suggest you take a hard look at your priorities in life. \n\nAnd go to anger management. ', 'Some of these people are so angry- and they don’t even own an Apple product? \n\nIt’s truly bizarre ', 'Not a temporary solution?', "They probably expect a personal in-person apology from Tim Cook, complete with a foot massage, 2 free trips anywhere on the planet in Cook's new jet with a +1, a free MacBook Pro, and free phone upgrades for the rest of their lifetime.", "I don't understand how anyone that disagrees with this response is an apple hater, they only responded after being caught and it is what it is whatever it won't make me want an iPhone more or less but I wouldn't be happy with these actions from any company whether apple or any other phone maker", "Maybe reducing the price permanently instead? I buy this no more than EA's temporary removal of micro-transactions.\nBesides, there isn't much labor in opening a phone if you give your employees the tools.", '> They OBVIOUSLY knew what was taking place.\n\nWell of course they did. They wrote the damn software. I\'m looking at this from the perspective of a software developer. To me, this is what it seems like happened:\n\n"Hey, we\'re getting a lot of complaints about older iPhones shutting down unexpectedly. Is there anything we can do about that?"\n\n"Yeah, looks like older batteries can\'t push enough power under high load. We could probably put in a fail-safe so that it throttles processing for a few seconds instead of shutting off."\n\n"So instead of a full, unexpected shutdown, our customers will get a slight slowdown for a couple seconds like when apps are loading?"\n\n"Yeah. Should we make it an option in the OS?"\n\n"Why? That will cost a lot of money and literally no one would ever turn the feature off. Who prefers an unexpected shutdown to a little slowdown?"\n\n"Yeah, but someone\'s gonna want it later anyway."\n\nThe only reason this is even a thing is because people have been crying fowl about OS updates slowing down their phones for years now. I can\'t speak to whether or not that\'s legitimate, although I wouldn\'t be surprised as software tends to bloat over time, but people were hungry as hell to confirm this particular conspiracy, so the first sniff of anything resembling it and they jumped on it. ', 'I did. I was trying to quote from the Apple release itself. They specifically said that they would replace batteries that “need to be replaced” for $29. They don’t say they will replace everyone’s battery for $29. By their definition, if your battery passes their diagnostic, it doesn’t “need to be replaced.”\n\nEdit: I see the typo in my original comment now.', "Apparently everyone. Doesn't make any sense to me but when did mobs ever make sense I guess", 'You\'re forgetting the middle setting.\n\nChange nothing because my phone wasn\'t shutting down randomly before the latest iOS update and my phone would be running perfectly fine with a slightly lower battery life instead of behaving like a random turd and closing my apps as soon as I open I dare open a second one because "safety and protection."', "Android has this exact feature, the only difference is Android phones just don't randomly shut down because the battery is worn out, it just runs out of juice faster. ", 'Not a teen, not a "communist".\n\nWeeks ago, had apple not told anyone about their battery manipulation, they would not receive any revenue from replacing them for a "reduced" fee. This is a PR stunt and cash grab that people like you will think Apple is generous for committing to. \n\nFound the sheep.', 'Great, thanks for the advice!', 'I’ll take my chances with that rather than having my phone purposely slowed down when the battery could be completely fine.', 'I buy 2 Anker batteries and an external charger for $20. Buy new batteries about once a year.', "Although on average samsung has lower margins since they sell a lot of cheaper phones, computers, and things like dishwashers.  Fair point though, everyone tries to gouge the first adopters.  It seems apple though gouges everyone at all stages.  I mean samsung isn't out there leading the front on dongle gouging", "I think they don't. If they are we should think about why we need more and more powerful devices if we can't power them and need new batteries every few months. THAT'S really not environmentally friendly. Just saying.", 'Right, if the phone was affected by a bad battery.\n\nThe new IOS has a feature that slows the older phones down to protect the battery. That’s not changing.\n\nPlease correct me if I’m wrong here.\n\n', "It was a joke. I'm fully aware there are a ton of people out there willing to pay way too much for a product that doesn't outperform something I could pay half as much for. I like poking fun at those people. They look really cool at Starbucks though.", "So a large swath of people enjoy paying way too much for a product that doesn't outperform something I could pay half as much for? Got it.\n\nAnd it isn't just about single models. It's about the OS they run. Android accounts for about 70% of the market in the US, with iOS at about 30%.\n\nThey might be selling a lot of iPhones, but that's because there are a shit ton of other options with Android, which definitely owns the market.\n\nSomeone purchasing an Apple product is fine, but I'm going to poke fun at them, because they deserve it for wasting their cash to support a company that doesn't allow competition (and performs planned obsolescence), which is why Android dominates.", "Obviously you are shill if you don't agree with free sexual favours from the Apple CEO.\n", "That's.. not what they're claiming AT ALL. You do know that right?\n\nI mean, if you wanna drink the kool aid instead of knowing the basics of protection circuitry(which hasn't changed btw), go for it..", 'I just had my battery replaced last month by apple - £79!!! If only I waited 😩\nIcing on the cake was them telling me that it’ll cost **me**  £250 if **they**  break it during repairs. How is that fair??', 'Why would a genius need training? ', '>So much this.\n\nJust curious, do you ever say that out loud to people?', "Tryed that took my iPhone 7 in when it was acting up, the phone had just came out 6 month ago, so still under warranty. Applse refused to honor there warranty because the phone had corrosion damage ( sines of water damage). The phones never seen water at all ever. The closes it's been to water is sitting in the bathroom while I shower. The phone's suppose to be water resistant.\n So I kept there rental sold it and bought an s8", "Yep. I'm not a fan of apple at all, but their customer service is top notch. My dad spilled water on his old iMac a couple years ago and the apple store gave him the newer model for free, no questions asked. ", "Maybe he means his wife's phone working fine in comparison to his phone being shitty?", "I'd be fucking ecstatic if I got 14 hours of use out of my iphone...", '14 hours is definitely NOT what someone should expect. Normal SOT should be 5+ hours for a new phone, 4+ hours if it\'s a year old. If a person is using their phone for fewer than 4 hours and it\'s still dying, that\'s the sign of a bad battery. Claiming a person shouldn\'t expect to get a full day out of their phone is stupid, as most people are on actively on their phone for less than 5 hours combined. Screen-on-time (SOT from before) can vary by phone and by environmental conditions and by activity, but almost all modern phones should be able to last a person an entire day of "normal use" before dying.', 'It’s seems right but it performs markedly worse than 6 m ago', "She can't use her phone normally if the processor is underclocked more than 50%...", 'Mine used to last at least two days with my usage level. However after the update in about October, I am lucky if I get 16 hours. ', "I guess it depends on the phone. I tend to be a power user and the phone I got several weeks ago is capable of 24+ hour runs with heavy use on a single charge.\n\nAll said, as long as you keep whatever version of fast charging your phone supports handy 14 hours isn't bad. I think a lot of people (this is my experience with friends at least) use older chargers that don't support their phones type of fast charging (QC, USB-PD etc) and that tends to cause problems.", 'I was given an email in the last week or two that said if it’s “close” to go ahead and approve the repair. I think 83% was the threshold but I’m not sure. I would wait until January whenever the discount kicks in and try again when you can. ', 'And an Apple guaranteed battery!', "USA you can do it for $40 at any repair place\n\nI'm getting downvoted to hell so I'll edit.\n\nIn the USA you can do it for $40 in Tricked Out Accessories, University Mall, Orem, UT, or in Phone Repair Lab, Marley Station Mall, Glen Burnie, MD. Those are the only two places I've tried it at. Call them if you don't believe me. \n\nThey do it while you wait. You go to these stores, pay them $40 however you like, wait ~45 minutes, and walk away with a brand new battery in your phone. I know this works because my wife and sister have both done it in the last six months, one with an iPhone 6s, the other with an iPhone 5c.\n\nI assumed that this would work anywhere in the country because two entirely distinct businesses in two far-off states did the same service the same way for the same price. Perhaps I am incorrect in assuming that it can be done *anywhere* in the USA.\n\nEdit 2: This may void the warranty on the phone? I'm not certain. If it does though, I think it's likely that the repair job in an unknown country mentioned by /u/mradhd will also void the warranty.", 'Dumb question, but how do you type Korean characters? Is it like a build a bear but for the letters or is it just a huge list?', 'Probably Samsung pulling strings to delay it getting opened. \n\nThat company seems like a Mafia crossed with royalty.', "Are Apple products that unpopular in South Korea? I know it's essentially a nation owned by Samsung, but I figured Seoul would have at least 1 Apple store.", 'Better call Apple and verify this because I used to work at one and our service center didn’t.', '*Alexa mysteriously deletes this reminder*', 'Alexa add titty farts to my shopping list.', "> I've since upgraded \n\nSo you let them win?", 'come to the android world my friend.', 'And yet you bought another iphone...silly boy', 'RemindMe! 350 days', '>iPhone 6 or later\n\nWhere did you learn how to read?', 'At least properly quote the article\n> iPhone 6 or later\n\nWhy would Apple replace batteries on devices not affected by that software update? They indicated that the software was initially rolled out to iPhone 6, 6S, (and plus models) and SE and more recently to 7 and 7 plus as well. So any iPhone that is 6 or above fits into that deal.', 'Read the press release. The throttling only occurs when the battery is worn out. If you replace it, then *yes*, your old iPhone 5 will be snappy again. \n\nSo many misinformed angry comments here. ', "And the customer's forgetful enough to listen to the same lies. ", 'They gotta look out for #1: shareholders!!', 'Or so you speculate. ', 'Oh yeah? You have proof of your claims?', 'Number 2 is false. It’s not in Apple’s interest to force people to upgrade. If you hate your iPhone and have to replace it, the odds are you won’t buy an iPhone again. Apple doesn’t force upgrades, you could keep running your original OS and not lose anything. ', 'By forcing people to upgrade it allows for development to actually go faster because they don’t have to deal with legacy versions. It actually allows for faster growth. This has been how Apple has been doing it since the beginning. ', 'If you mean for boot camp, that was because the hardware supported discs so that’s what you were supposed to use. ', "the product the consumer bought should still be able to be used.  We aren't talking 3rd party drivers here, we're talking 1 company that produces all hardware and software, the old version worked, they should offer the old software.", "When this story first broke I made a comment about if it was really the battery why it would still slow down while charging... I had a bunch of apple fanboys tell me how dumb I was and give reasons that sound smart but weren't applicable.  It was kind of funny. ", 'But apple products all work together remember ', 'The 5S is easy AF to open though. Just grab a battery and pentalobe screwdriver off eBay. ', 'So if Apple’s statement is to be believed, the 5s did not get the performance management feature and so you’re experiencing the unaltered behaviour of random shutdowns caused by battery degradation.\n\n\nI have to think that given the choice you’d rather have a slight decrease in performance occasionally to avoid the shutdowns?  I’m not trying to be an Apple apologist but it seems they had good intentions with the feature and this uproar at the moment is simply down to bad communication.', 'my uncle still has an iphone 4. Not 4s. It still "works" but feels slow as hell. But for someone who only wants whatsapp & make calls its acceptable', 'It’s a 4 year old phone, of course it’s obsolete. It still got an update this year which is still damn good as far as support goes. And besides, the slowdown due to battery aging only happens from the 6 above, so the 5s is unaffected in performance no matter how shitty the battery gets which is why this cut in price is only for those affected. ', 'Bong and a blintz?', 'Exactly. I find it baffling that most people don’t even realize that this is the issue and chalk it all up to “Apple slows down older iPhone models to get you to buy new ones” without actually understanding what is happening. \n\nWhen I try to explain that it has nothing to do with the model of the phone or year of release and everything to do with the amount of charge cycles the battery went through, they tell me that still they shouldn’t be throttling phones. I then go on to explain why throttling could be beneficial, and that Apple was shitty for not being transparent about it, but they just stick to “nah they’re just slowing down older phones, they’re evil”.', "if they had communicated it normally no one would have cared. now they're talking about this on the today show", "> or not letting the user choose which way he would prefer to utilize the product.\n\nTBF to Apple, their whole thing is 'we know best, you don't need to worry about any choosing'.", '> They really didn\'t admit they had an issue, they admit that they communicated the decision of handling the issue (which is standard among the industry) badly.\n\nI remember that was called a fraud: nowadays it is a "*communication*" issue.', "Apple decided to make their batteries non-replaceable though. Everyone said it was a shitty decision at the time, and now it's coming back to bite them.", 'No no no, Apple just admitted they’ve been slowing down every iPhone since ever when new ones come out! /s\n\nThere’s reasons to be annoyed at Apple for not communicating it after the said 10.2.1 patch but the reactions are so extreme and many misinformed. People just don’t read articles. ', "I have not personally had iPhones, my Android phones have never 'shut down' at 50% battery.  How is there not a technical issue?", '[Like this?](https://www.reddit.com/r/technology/comments/7mpmcg/apple_apologizes_for_iphone_slowdown_drama_will/drw8fzc/)', 'i remember when the ipad came out they omitted features that were standard on other devices so people would run and buy the next generation with the "new, cutting edge" outdated features. They don\'t do is as much anymore because the markets is much more competitive now that it was then and i am sure they would lose some(not all, obviously) customers over things like that. While that isn\'t the same as purposely slowing down your device like they did here....it still causes people to buy new equipment. Apple is where they are because of their marketing genius, which includes shitty tactics sometimes. ', 'This is so true. Apple is saying oh no it’s not planned etc. Then why are the batteries for all their products sealed in? They swapped this for the MacBook line now too. The batteries are glued in.  \n\nWhy can we not downgrade updates? Why can we not turn off updates? It’s ludicrous. I upgraded my laptop from snow leopard where it ran beautifully but I couldn’t run a couple newer apps. I “upgraded” to El Capitan and it runs like absolute ass. There’s a huge delay to everything. It’s painful.  \n\nI upgraded my iPhone 4 to the newest iOS (maybe 7?) and it ran so slow I could type a text and send it before any characters appeared on screen. Snapchat and WhatsApp wouldn’t work, using the camera was a 5FPS experience. Dreadful. I then bought an iPhone 5 because it was faster than my 4, ran fine, but iOS always wanted to update and I just couldn’t turn it off. 2-3 times daily it would ask me to restart my phone but I knew if I updated to the latest current iOS my phone would feel sluggish and horrible.  \n\nLo and behold I sold my 5 but upgraded it before I did and it ran like shit. My moms 5S is on the latest iOS but runs like shit.  \n\nI have no doubt in my mind that Apple does *SOMETHING* to make their devices slower than they should when they reach a certain age. ', "Very bad interpretation and people have no option to downgrade software to put it back to better speeds. It should have been disclosed to give people idea or an option! Now people will be very suspect before doing anything. A company that has people suspicious will profit way less. It's a big mistake consumers shouldn't pay for.", "How about a battery I can replace and a simple pop-up warning when the current battery is starting to fail. Cars have had maintenance warning lights for like... 60 years. Jeez I don't miss apple products at all.", 'The issue is software. It worked once before with different software and the hardware is not the point at all. I made it very clear the battery is a distraction but did you even read the comment?', "It's easier to beg for forgiveness than to ask for permission. ", 'What exactly did they do wrong, in your estimation?', "Um... they included that information in the release notes for iOS 10.2.1.  They didn't hide it.  ", 'The thing about Apple is they seem to hold on to a lot of information as to not “overwhelm” or “confuse” some consumers. Most of us here may be more technically inclined, but many iPhone owners don’t care about the behind the scenes, they just expect the phone to work for a long time.', '> That\'s why people are upset. \n\nIn this thread it looks like people are preemptively "defending" apple from the hordes of haters that are nowhere to be seen.\n\nAll I see is the angry people getting mocked and made fun of. Maybe the PR damage control team got early to this thread.', 'They got "caught" making sure old phones with degraded batteries don\'t spontaneously shut down?', '> capitalism\n\nIn a world with near unlimited access to information, barely functioning zombies buy products that are all marketing and no substance. The reddit edgelord blames this on capitalism for its evil results of a wide variety of smartphones available for a huge range of prices and features, all available over the internet with cheap and fast shipping.  \nApple has re-released the same phone with marginal upgrades for a decade, people caught on to this trick as early as 2008 but they buy apple products because they are stupid and lazy. Apple plays this off like a feature because even they know their customers are stupid and lazy.   \n\nhttp://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-2709502/Does-Apple-deliberately-slow-old-models-new-release-Searches-iPhone-slow-spike-ahead-launches.html    \n\nhttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aMQbRpxgFvs', "Not really.  This is only for the iphone 6 and 6s so it's only for select models running iOS 10.2.1 or higher.  So most of the phones that people have been complaining about over the years just haven't been able to keep up with the software and it isn't Apple throttling the processor speed to prevent crashes.  \n  \nI agree Apple could have been more transparent, but they did include the information in the release notes for iOS (which nobody reads) and they're taking care of their customers.  ", 'It was.  [This message](https://i.imgur.com/d3mMhFe.png) was also added in the same iOS release, and shows up when the OS is throttling your performance due to battery issues.\n\nThe problem was that the message was hidden away inside the Battery settings.  It should have popped up a notification at least.', 'Honestly I switched to apple this year because of the amount of effort they put in to protecting themselves and their users from the meddling of the US government during the san bernandino terrorist stuff.\n\nApple fought and won and then when a bug was identified that allowed the government to bypass security they patched that shit immediately.', 'there will be action taken my friend.  we live in the digital age where devices are getting faster and faster and frankly are outpacing the operating systems they run.   the internet, the people demand more and more out of their devices.  \n\n', "Classic example of Stockholm Syndrome.\n\nAlso, here's another example of it-\n\n>Stainless steel looks and feels *so much more luxurious* than aluminum.\n\n>The chins and foreheads on other iPhones now stick out to me far more than the notch on the X. They just scream “Wasted space!” to me.\n\nhttps://daringfireball.net/2017/12/the_iphone_x", 'How much is your wage at apple.', 'Only after all their IP is given to Google or Amazon - who would never do anything bad to the consumer ever ', 'how about they just make it so their updates dont slow the user interface down at all?   ', 'Come on boys, bring out the strawmen!', 'If you just got it then it probably doesn’t need it yet. You’d most likely be better off waiting until it starts affecting performance or just replacing towards he end of the offer in order to get the most out of the batteries', 'Are you saying that it’s been going on longer than the release of the 10.2 OS version?', 'Well they rubbed their nipples while saying it so ya ', "to fix parts on a device out of warranty? like every company does? Yea, I'd say so", "[$3.50 for an iPhone 6](https://static3.businessinsider.com/image/54228dc7eab8ea52567b340a-707-638/iphone-cost-comparison.png) and up to $6.50 for the 6S. \n\nAccording to Business Insider, [source found here.](http://www.businessinsider.com/analysis-iphone-6-plus-costs-prices-and-profits-2014-9) And those were 2014 prices. It's likely that it went down since then.\n\n\nDo ordinary people think this was a good decision for Apple? As a lawyer, I think they exposed themselves to unnecessary liability, especially in overseas markets. I know some companies have paid accounts on here. But I'm a little surprised about the lack of ordinary search skills. It's so easy to find out how much the actual battery cost. ", 'They didn’t ban any apps. They took info out of the battery API for developers.', 'If they do it would explain a few things as to why Macs last for so many years. At my high school they had 2009 white MacBooks. Those puppies are 9 years old and still work for most use cases. ', 'Apple has other patters of slowing down older phones. They definitely needed to apologize. ', "I'm a little surprised apple lets apps access that information so easily.", "That's nice info. Thanks ", 'I don’t think I’d trust they’re software.', "And how many people have been sharing stories of being rejected for a new battery because their testing machine claims their battery is fine? What about those people that know there's a problem, but Apple's test won't let them get it fixed?", '> $29 my ass. Even their apologies are fucking greedy. \n\nThat\'s the part that\'s utterly mind-boggling here — they are "apologizing" for a mistake that they created and their contrition to resolve the situation is to charge users more money?', "Hi I'm Jobsy! Looks like you jeed some help?!\n\nBy agreeing to this special deal you also agree to forgo your legal rights to any and all future class action lawsuits!\n\nJust insert $29 to agree!", 'I just swapped my 3 year old battery. The staff made 0 attempts to upsell. \n\nThe tech even said "wow this thing looks great for 3 years old, clean and scratchless. Keep taking care of it like this and it\'ll last another year or two. ', 'You put this beautifully. A greedy apology.  Perfect amount of SF Silicon Valley smarm.', "Why people continue to use Apple products in 2017, almost 2018 is fucking beyond me.  There are so many better choices.  I get it's a fashion statement and girls will want iPhones no matter what in the face of logic.  But any one with half a brain using an iPhone is just sad.\n", 'I would kind of enjoy that. Being able to say "I swear to God you try to upsell me into your garbage $1000 bullshit, that will apparently only last 2 years, and I will walk out of here and never buy another Apple product in my life. Now give me a free battery!" Of course, I only have an iPhone for work and do not own a single other apple product because they sell expensive trash. Even still, it would be fun. ', "Also, $79 for a new battery to start with?! \n\nSo at $29 you know they're still making a profit on those batteries right, so they were making more than $50 profit on those batteries before... There stuff is way overpriced.", "Agreed.\n\nAnd I'm not certain that other smartphone manufacturers are completely innocent of similar, but Apple being by far the most profitable manufacturer, I think deserves the spotlight now.\n\nPerhaps some industry-wide norms for battery aging specifications can help consumers make informed shopping decisions.\n\nSure, the aging might depend on variables stated in the letter (temperature, staying on charger), but we still appreciate results from tests under standardized conditions.  The same thing is already done for car fuel efficiency testing: they are driven thru standardized tracks.\n\nSo in future, phone specs might include:\n\n- X no. of charge cycles with no performance throttling required, under IEC xxxx test conditions.\n- battery life test result in hours (similar to [gsmarena.com's method](https://www.gsmarena.com/battery-test.php3)) at 10th cycle, and at 300th cycle.", 'My thoughts exactly!! ', '>...things would be peachy if they just changed the battery.\n\nI’m extremely skeptical of that at this point.\n\nThe fact that new models are excluded until OS updates that occur about a year or two after launch smells bad.\n\nMy assumption is that my iPhone 6S will never see its original performance, the battery will always be judged throttle-worthy.\n\nI did get my battery replaced under Apple warranty and while it seemed to resolve the shutdowns it also coincided with their update to start throttling.  My phone is downright poky compared to what it used to be.  Even with a full charge while connected to the charger.', 'They throttled your phone to disguise a manufacturing defect, and changed their battery replacement policy to shut up the most vocal complainers.\n\n', 'Re: the popup, this is kind of an odd space. On the one hand, I agree - I don\'t want Apple mucking around in my phone. But also, I don\'t want to click through "do you want your phone to break (x) or not break (x)" once a week. I\'m not sure how you be Apple before this update, see that something is crashing phones, write some code that stops phones from crashing, and know whether you\'re in "obvious broken things are now obviously fixed" or "a non-obvious trade-off needs to be presented to the users" situation.', "It's completely unreasonable that the iPhone 6 is randomly shutting down at 80% battery life.  It's called a manufacturing defect.\n\nApple did not want to bring attention to that defect so they changed their AppleCare battery replacement policy in 2015 to help mask the problem.\n\nThen they incorporated a stealth update to underclock the processor and prevent the influx of battery replacements their Geniuses really weren't equipped to handle, again pointing to a manufacturing defect coverup.", 'The problem is that you are basing your entire judgement on the belief that Apple is 100% being honest. In what century would you ask an accused murderer if he killed someone, and then let him go when he said, "no"? You\'d investigate, you\'d get evidence, you\'d have a trial, etc. etc. But you just seem to want to let Apple slide by because they said something that makes sense. Obviously batteries decrease in efficiency as they age, and obviously that needs to be handled in a device that requires top performance of said battery, and yes, this all could have just been a horribly mixed up deal, but it also could have been malicious; it could have been greedy, and it definitely was at LEAST wrong of them not to notify users of the problem that they very clearly are aware of.', '>there is no information here about the current health of my battery.\n \n\nBecause your battery is fine.', "I love it. I had the V10 before this one, and I am used by now to the large screen. I also have an iPhone 7 for work, and I don't like it much. It's a matter of preference, I guess: I'm an Android guy. ", 'I worked the launch of both the V10 and V20, both excellent phones', 'Still have my Galaxy S5 Active. Currently running with an extra battery for long hauls away from power source. And can always order a new battery. I\'m dreading to upgrade to a newer phone with integrated planned obsolescence *features"', 'But S5 is removable. ', 'And the knowledge. And the replacement battery. ', "Even for phones that don't have water-resistance as part of the design, an otter box will *generally* do a fine job at providing reasonable water-resistance.\n\n There're quite a few ways, I'm sure, phone designers can go about adding water protection to their phones without compromising a removable battery.", "Bingo. I can't believe people are so willing to take it in the ass via planned obsolescence.\n\nThere's a reason I use a V20. The only thing I miss from my s5 is the water resistance.", "If my $20 flashlight can have removable batteries and be waterproof, then so can be a phone. Let's not allow Apple to reason for us too.", 'Eh it used gasket seals didn’t it? \n\nI would say gluing the shit out of something in addition to gasket seals is better than just gasket seals for waterproofing ', 'Why? Just get a power bank ...\n\nWhy on earth would you use an internal battery for that?', 'Yep! And remember to close all your port flaps! Seriously though, the waterproofing on that thing was a joke in comparison to whats available now.', 'My bad, corrected my original post! Thanks.', 'Yeah.. I think there was a period where vendors flirted with having removable batteries + a low water resistance rating, though I think most (if not all) have moved over to either having a removable battery or a higher water resistant rating.', "I will never be purchasing a phone that isn't water resistant for as long as I live being able to take my phone in the shower in the morning for music and news, having it next to me when cooking without worrying about spills, taking it out hiking or biking without worrying, is the greatest feature of my phone. Battery banks have solved the battery swapping days of old and when I notice a problem with my battery life, it isn't that difficult to either buy a battery and take 20 minutes to get the back off yourself to replace it, or have it sent somewhere to get it replaced. ", "I mean, you'd replace the battery every 2 years? Maybe a little earlier than that. In Apples case, previously the battery was $80 to have them replace it for you, even if the battery was removable you would still have to pay $80 for a new battery. \n\nSo what, you would have to spend like 15-30 extra minutes while Apple replaced your battery, not that big of a deal as some people make it seem IMO.", "Ok. I don't understand. How does the battery being removable fix the problem of the battery degrading? They all degrade. And for the most part, at least in my experience, even on phones without removable batteries the problem can be solved at the store. They just give you a new or refurbished phone and only charge you for the battery replacement. It takes a little but longer, sure, but having the battery actually be replaceable in store doesn't change the fact that eventually it's going to get old and need to be replaced. And you'll probably have to go to the phone store to do it. I genuinely feel like I'm missing something here. ", 'That would be a minority opinion', ">  I'd rather have replaceable batteries vs. waterproof phones.\n\nThen buy one that fits your preferences?", "Replacing the battery shouldn't be something that requires a technician to do. Once upon a time, you could do it yourself without any special tools.\n\nTurns out though, that wasn't profitable enough.", "Then do it yourself.\nBy the time it needs replacement it'll be out of warranty.\n\nIf people are really crying about having to buy a screwdriver set and reading a guide, then it just shows that they don't really want it that bad.\n\nIt literally takes 20 min to replace an iPhone battery, and that's including finding and reading a guide.\n\nThat's 20 mins every 2 years ... over having some flappy plastic crap back cover, which also results in reduced water resistance.", 'Water resistant, not proof. There is a big difference.', 'The new ones are ', 'What phones are waterproof with a replaceable battery? I know there are phones that are water resistant but not proof as far as I know. \n\nI never claimed the iPhone was water proof?', "I've owned my Note II since 2012 and used it like this for the first 2 years or so, as I was using it to listen to music and podcasts (along with app usage and occasional web browsing) for 12-14 hours at a time.  \n\nI purchased a spare battery and a charger came with it.  Was very nice swapping out a 15% battery for a 100% one, especially when driving across the country during a 2 day move.", 'I guess now it’s, at what point do the new features/safety standards/fuel consumption out weight the ability to work on your car? \n\nAssuming cost is the same, would you rather have a car that got 15mpg more but you couldn’t work on it (pretty much everything outside of regular maintenance is off limits) or the one where if you rip the engine out and a different one in, everything works it’s supposed to ', 'Well now it’s $29 to have it replaced.', 'I don’t know man, what the hell does someone do that their phones are paperweights in just a year and a half. \n\nMy previous android phones easily lasted me over 2 years with decent battery event, my current 7 plus is over an year and a few months still lasts me the entire day on battery, no visible slowdowns according to geekbench. \n\n\nMaybe it’s just anecdotal, but I rarely ever see phones gone to shit after just 1.5 years, around the 3 year mark yes but never really in 1.5 years. ', "I dunno what defective means, but if your friends' phones are all no longer functioning after 1.5 years due to dead batteries then they probably should realize their results could be better if they were willing to buy other kinds of phones.", "We were talking about phones being paper weights (useless) at 1.5 years, not slowdowns. How would I even get to talking about slowdowns or not if my phone at 2 years if my phone was useless at 1.5?\n\nI had no apparent slowdowns either, but then again despite what everyone says on here, a slowdown in peak CPU rate isn't always apparent. So maybe I was being affected.", "I've not done it but assume you will need new adhesive for the back plate and battery. There are links in that previous link I posted to all the tools and parts, new adhesive strips as well, that you can buy from them.\n\nIt might also be worth contacting Samsung to see how much they charge as it might be the same cost if you have none of the required tools.", '> $29 and 5 seconds of my time.\n\n[What about $25 and about 30 minutes?](https://www.ifixit.com/Store/iPhone/iPhone-6-Replacement-Battery/IF268-002-4)', "I don't either. I still have my old Nexus 5.", 'I heard Amazon Basics is pretty terrible ', "But...those aren't even manufactured by Apple. That's an apples to oranges comparison, no pun intended.", '1m is far longer than a rat penis', 'Yes about the battery, but at least every third-party cable I have bought eventually fails to be "certified" and fails then check by the iOS no matter how "apple certified" it is. Monopoly is not the right word. You are right. being forced to use lighting when standards exist just sucks. But you are right there are other phones i can buy. ', 'They have a monopoly on cables marketed with apple name', 'What you described has nothing to do with this battery issue. That’s due to the limited RAM on your phone. The iPhone 6 was the last iPhone to only have 1 GB of RAM and this is because of that. ', 'You are right. The penalty should probably be higher.', 'And who\'s fault is the sudden shutdowns? Apple! They encounter an issue with their engineering and decide to "fix it" in a manner that encourages folks to pony up for a new device. All while being pretty mum about what they are doing. They took advantage of their own fuckup to hoodwink people out of more money. Not cool. ', "Yes, which is good and all. Too bad you don't know *why* your phone is going slower. Is it 3rd party software on your phone? Is it iOS running slow? Is it the battery? Why did apple take out the battery API in the past so we could not get reliable information on the battery? Why do the Apple tools tell you your battery is good, when the same battery removed and tested slow greatly reduced performance? Why doesn't apple give you a message that your performance is reduced from bad battery?\n\nOh yea, so you'll buy a new phone. ", 'As opposed to this thread which is full of people with low intelligence and people who lack basic reading comprehension ', "Of course. Point being, when you're aware of it you could choose to get something else instead of buying another phone with planned obsolescence. ", 'https://www.geekbench.com/blog/2017/12/iphone-performance-and-battery-age/\n\nYes they changed the behavior with ios versions but it still appears to be linked to battery life.', "The narrative who promotes? That's what was discovered and what Apple is now apologizing for.", "If you don't have an X, then you can turn that setting on, but yea with an X, you can only see it from the control center", 'Do u have  the X?', 'Those info is NOT revealed on iOS. I am talking about showing this info for your connected iOS device.', "... the whole point now is that Apple detects that your battery is not healthy anymore and so they will throttle your CPU.\n\nIf that is not a battery life app, then I don't know anymore. (Well maybe the fancy graphical user interface is missing)\n", "I own a phone and computer repair shop, and it is actually very common for people to come have their battery replaced because their iPhone would shut down on random percentages. It's my most common repair after screen replacements.", 'I was getting the unexpected shut downs but only after an iOS update. To that point the batt was JUST fine. Then it would kick out at 40/50%. No way my battery aged that fast in the span of a month (perfectly timed with the release of the iPhone 7). ', "Does sound like power system issues, hard to say whether its due to excessive battery degradation (either out of spec or not) or just poor engineering around the expected battery degradation. It doesn't seem like it's widespread enough that it affects everyone, so it could be something like 1% of batteries degrading much worse than expected or some other manufacturing/QC issue rather than an engineering problem.\n\n> Now it’s about once every 22 to 30 hours, too. If the battery had a lower capacity, I suppose that would make the phone even more uncomfortable to use right out of the box. (Or a few grams heavier to compensate for lower energy density I guess?)\n\nThe implication was more that they'd have to make the phone larger, but yeah it's all a balancing act.", '> They did do that.\n\nWell, okay, I\'m not sure why this \'fix\' was warranted then. What justification is there for this kind of software kludge if there was a program to actually fix the problem permanently? At the very least, if they detected the issue, they should\'ve advised the user to take them up on their replacement program because their performance was degraded due to it.\n\n> The less-discussed thing here is that these battery issues are not unique to iOS devices. Neither Google nor Samsung have even acknowledged that this is occurring on their Nexus, Pixel and Galaxy devices. Apple appears to have been the only manufacturer that both a) created a battery replacement program and b) created a software "fix" (obviously, whether it\'s a fix to the end user is subjective) to mitigate the unexpected shutdowns by throttling the CPU when performing demanding operations.\n\nIs *this* happening, though? These devices are not nearly simple enough that you can say \'well Nexus devices crash too, they must also have bad batteries\'. There are myriad possible causes of this kind of thing - software bugs, thermal issues, other power management design flaws, physical damage etc. Bottom line is that they shouldn\'t be crashing, and should be designed and warranted to last at least a few years of normal use without degradation.\n\nRight now, we\'re talking about Apple and the \'fix\' they chose to deploy. What other vendors do is not very relevant. Apple deserves criticism for their handling of this.', "Possible - another tradeoff here. Do you engineer in better cooling that takes space, deal with it by limiting the performance envelope, or do you let the device operate at higher temperatures, sacrificing lifespan? Personally I think if the device was operating hot enough to damage the battery, it'd be uncomfortably hot to use, so I don't think this explains the battery failures (if that's indeed what's going on here).\n\nYou see the same thing in laptops, and Apple has a history of it, where they go into thermal throttling because they choose not to engineer in sufficient cooling to cool the CPU when it's pinned, and take the performance hit instead.", 'Project fi just replaced my Nexus 6P with a Pixel because it randomly shut down.', "The only android phone I've ever heard of having this issue sooner than several years out and past EOL is the Nexus 6, and when it started happening google went out of their way to replace batteries and even entire phones, out of warranty, **free**. \n", "I would just prefer to have an easily replaced battery that isn't ultra-expensive.", 'Next time, just replace the battery.', "But that's just the natural progression of software isn't it? ", "The issue is that customers expect a certain smoothness and performance baseline from Apple products. These software updates are massive and require top of the line processors to run. Your 2 year old iPhone with the half worn battery can't run the latest update smoothly. \n\nYou as a user are better off refusing updates after 1 year. ", 'Even if true, THOSE phones have easily and cheaply replaceable batteries.  \n\nYou have even been able to add wireless charging capabilities that way many years before Apple invented this revolutionary technology. ^/S', "Does your OnePlus 5 TELL you that the reason you can't use the flash is because the battery is low?\n\nBecause Apple hasn't been telling people what they were doing under the hood...", 'It’s a thing for sure. I had it on my old iPhone 5. Other commenters have had it on other brands of phones. It’s a real thing. Apple just didn’t communicate that people’s batteries were to blame. Maybe that is where things aren’t adding up. The rest is pretty sound as far as I know. ', 'Ah yes...the days when you could replace the Nokia casing and keyboards with custom looks. Man, I miss that--you were really able to make your phone your own!', 'The 5s is still getting updates (I own one as a backup and consistently update it). I just don\'t think that this "feature" was enabled on that device.', 'Wait then why is it bugging me to get 11 every damn day of my life?', 'Yes. This exactly!', 'why should a 3 year old phone be so slow that you "chalk it (the slow laggy bullshit) up to being a 3 year old device?\n', 'Except in February of this year, before they issued the update, they issued an article explaining that in the battery section of the settings page it will notify you if you need a battery replacement. [Here](https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT207453) is a link to this. The publish date is of the most recent update to the page, which isn’t the original date, as other [sites](https://forums.macrumors.com/threads/your-iphone-battery-may-need-to-be-serviced-message.2034446/) reference it as far back as February.', 'I think they did. There was a low power mode implemented at this time. But it’s always an option. ', 'Secrets are lies sharing is caring privacy is theft.', 'Then give several warnings. The user has no option but to replace the battery in hopes that it will fix the problem, but if they can disable throttling then they can see if they are happy with the increase themselves. ', "Because he's delusional.", 'No shutdowns have been happening on every smart phone made for years', ' Just healthy skepticism of all things corporate. They answer to shareholders, not the customer. ', 'For a phone that is intentionally slow...', 'The iPhone 6 battery is about $10 for anyone to buy right now and install themselves. My repair shop does them for $19 when you get another repair with the device. The fact that apple is charging more than that means they are making profit, still, after all of this', 'The same phone they intentionally fucked up to begin with...', "Yes, there will be labour etc but they will make sure the $29 either covers their costs or makes them money (my guess would be the latter). The point is they should be doing far more than saying, yes we slowed iPhones on purpose, we're sorry we got caught, now pop over to our stores to pay for the fix and have a look out our new even more overpriced phones.\n\nIf Apple don't get fined in the courts, they will come out of this making money, and that's not right.", 'They did put it in the patch notes', 'Yep. Pretty much all they had to do was tell us that our phone is performance throttled and to replace the battery to get better performance. Easy.\n\nBut no.', "Because other manufacturers don't throttle their phones down and then deny doing it.", 'If geniuses (and Apple web support FAQs) had started, **one year ago**, to explain throttling, and to offer solving slowness (and shutdowns) with a battery replacement, then there would be no backlash today.\n\nWhereas my understanding was that consumers were complaining about slowness and getting no straight answers from Apple, such that people even had to question whether they were just imagining things.', 'Even before iPhones were water resistant, changing out the battery yourself voided the warranty.', "While I understand where you are coming from... I don't need to be able to replace it myself, I wouldn't change the brakes on my car because I don't know how to do it. But I can go to ANY auto shop and get it done. Apple doesn't want you to replace the battery so they don't make it convenient for the consumer or for independent repair shops.", "I feel like there's probably a way to have both, but that's take time and money to sort out so no one looks for it", 'How can i own a digital camera thats water proof and has a rechargeable battery? Why can i have both in a camera but not in my phone? I call BS. ', "I can assure you the VAST majority of people with two functioning arms can lift 40 lbs once. I have no idea what people you're thinking of, but it's not the majority.", 'They *were* transparent by virtue of the release notes? Haha. The relevant lines I see are:\n\n> **iOS 10.2.1**\n>\n> It also improves power management during peak workloads to avoid unexpected shutdowns on iPhone.\n\nIt would\'ve been closer to transparent if it had included words like: "apps might take longer to load", "slower", "throttled".\n\nCompare with relevant part of the apology letter:\n\n> With the update, iOS dynamically manages the maximum performance of some system components when needed to prevent a shutdown. While these changes may go unnoticed, in some cases users may experience longer launch times for apps and other reductions in performance.\n\nWow... "*dynamically manages the maximum performance* of some system components"', 'If it was an iphone, with 76% battery health it would be throttled heavily. ', "Well, that's a good question. If you really want to estimate battery degradation well, a cycle really should when you use approximately the entire capacity of the battery once, even if you do it in parts. That is, if you drain the battery 2/3rds of the way (and replace that energy) 3 times that would be 2 cycles.\n\nBut it's hard to know what Apple is calling a cycle. It might just be any charge to full from less than full.", "Ask nicely if you want someone else to do something for you. Otherwise, you're in charge of educating yourself.", 'I knew I should have kept those screenshots, yeah I was pretty happy with how it lasted and it was still holding about 60% capacity but the random shutdowns were pretty annoying.\n\n[My new battery is nice and happy though](https://i.imgur.com/2OTXnPu.png)', "> If I'm repairing a phone myself, I'm not earning money.\n\nThis.  The older I get, the more value I see in just paying a professional to take care of things I used to do myself to save a buck.", "It definitely doesn't take an employee with the proper tools an hour though, hardly even half an hour. With the battery costing about $30, supposing everything goes for the worst and the employee loses his tools somehow and takes an hour to change the battery, I doubt they're paid $50/hr.\n\nIt's pretty much unquestionable that Apple made profit off this, and I doubt it was accidental. Not only profit over the battery replacement, but profit off people who thought their phones were broken due to a lack of information from Apple, which I also doubt is accidental.", 'maybe, but it still functions at 100% under normal conditions. it doesnt get a software update and run at half power impacting my experience.  ', ">I don’t see how Apple have done anything wrong. \n\nThey don't tell you if the device is being slowed down or why the device was being slowed down.\n\nMost reasonable people would think that the device is just old and they should get a new one, not that it's only the battery and if the battery is replaced the device runs like new.", "If the device were engineered properly, there wouldn't be 'unexpected shutdowns'; if the battery still holds a reasonable charge and instantaneous spikes are causing reboots, they are either operating way too close to the limits of the battery - perhaps intentionally, as the way the battery ages is surely characterized by them - and need more capacitance or lower impedance batteries; or the batteries or capacitors are defective. They neither alert the user to the slowdown condition, nor advise them that there is a problem that can be rectified. It is not clear that the battery is the issue, and until this revelation, most people were throwing their arms up and buying new phones. Convenient for Apple.\n\nSeems to me like they're covering a technical issue with a software patch that happens to dramatically affect performance. Even if you buy their technical excuse, not notifying the user still leads to people replacing phones rather than replacing batteries, which is much more $$$ for Apple. They may not have done anything 'wrong', but they certainly didn't do the right thing.", 'Android fanboy here. Apple is handling this very well.', "This is so much BS. They knew they had a problem and they kept silent about it on purpose to sell more of their products. They could have and should have been transparent about the issues. Coming out only after you get caught is more than fishy.\n\nedit: let's not kid ourselves here. The whole mobile phone industry is geared towards selling you a new version of their product every year. The hardware is built for this cycle. Making an example of the biggest player in the market would go a long way to make sure the products get built with longer lifecycles in mind which only benefit the consumer (read; you). ", 'Ya, Android user who would never buy iPhone here. They handled it well. It was never about planned absolution, just had indication. They should just show when the battery is shit.', "they lied when they said they weren't slowing down phones, they withheld knowledge to their customers about why they were slowing them down knowing full well it would make a lot of people upgrade rather than just replace the battery.", 'Absolutely. The media just feed this false narrative for more clicks on their articles. The idea that Apple instigate some kind of planned obsolescence is absurd, the reason they are so successful is because their products work so well, if this wasn’t the case then customers would leave for Android.\nThe notion too that their fanbase will just upgrade anyway is also daft, they only have a loyal fanbase because the products are good. And even if it were true that fans would buy again anyway it would only account for a fraction of overall sales, most users don’t care about Apple as a brand they just want products that are easy to use and work. 4+ years of software updates and excellent customer service- these aren’t things that a company deliberately sabotaging its products to force early upgrades would have.', 'I think they should have just been upfront about it and let users opt out. It’s not as though everyone was experiencing the issue. Also if they told the up front truth and let people opt out I know I would and once I start experiencing issues upgrade my phone or get the battery replaced. Simple as that ', "Oh bullshit. You're nuts if you think Apple slowed down phones for any reason except to sell more phones.", "In /r/technology, most highly upvoted posts about Apple are negative in connotation, while highly upvoted posts about Google are positive in their connotation.\n\nGo on, search the sub and sort by most upvoted. Look at even just the top five examples. This sub loves to hate on Apple and loves to suck Google's cock.", 'I unsubbed from here because it was non-stop Apple hate for a long time.\n\nI remember I finally clicked unsubscribe when the entire front page of this section was anti-Apple stories and then each one had top comments explaining why the gist of the story was BS, lol.', 'Because that’s their MO. It’s always been Apple’s forte to make a phone that works as well as possible with the least possible user input. There is very very little you can change as a user regarding the software under the hood. With android, you can control clock speed, automate tasks, etc. Not with iOS. They weren’t hiding the battery issues. Battery depletion is a fact of the technology, and it takes many forms (excessive heat, swelling, etc.). Apparently in these iPhones random shutdowns is one of the symptoms. Apple believes the best way to avoid this is to throttle the phone until it has a power source that can handle peak power draws to avoid random shutdowns. Totally fair in my opinion. To your original question, newer software requires better hardware. The reason an iPhone 5 can’t run iOS11 properly is simply because it wasn’t designed to. iOS11 was designed with the iPhone 8/X chip in mind, not the A6 or A7. It would be like running Windows 10 on a laptop from 8 years ago. It just wouldn’t perform as well as it would with the XP installation it came with, because it requires more hardware resources.  ', 'Battery’s were not defective ', "It's not defective, it's worn. 500 charge cycles is typical of LiPo batteries before they chemically degrade.\n\nIt's chemistry, you knob. ", 'All of Reddit, really.', "Judging from your comment, you either don't understand the issue or you're being very sarcastic. ", "You make a good point. (Yes, it's a battery issue.)", 'I\'m not dismissing something I don\'t agree with, I dismiss something that isn\'t true, it\'s not "chemistry" you\'re wrong, you\'re eating up Apples lies, look up the info on the batteries, it\'s bullshit, not an opinion based on feelings, a reality based on facts', 'They don’t force anyone to upgrade ', 'So people can’t go back and jailbreak', 'I doubt so too, at $29. But I said "they\'ve been" as in while it was $80. And let\'s not forget the profit they made off people buying new phones to replace their "broken" ones.', 'From 2011? Which one?   ', 'Maybe read he article and technical explanation of the issue.  Then you’d understand why a new battery would help ', "Lots of phones will see one major update, maybe two and that's it. Try using an old android phone, depending on the version its running lots of stuff won't even work.\n\nMy old Samsung from 2011 was on gingerbread, you could get jelly bean on it with custom ROMs but for whatever reason Samsung didn't care to update it.", '"Android absolutely updates their operating systems"  LOL', 'I hate to break it to you, but if you asked the general, non-techy public, I would guess they would choose waterproofing over replaceable batteries 9/10 times.', 'My son dropped his SE in the bathtub, still works.\n ', 'I’d rather spend 30 on a new battery than 800 on a new phone', "> I thought Li-Ion was the new shiz?\n\nIt is. It just has some down sides.\n\nI think larger capacity batteries have less of a problem since they have more head room before things go bad. I'm not sure, though. Most of the technical analysis is, naturally enough, focussing on the iPhone.\n", 'PS. I have never owned an Apple phone, so I am probably talking out of my @ss', '> That doesn\'t seem like much of a lifespan?\n\nThree years, but this doesn\'t happen across the board. Some phones are affected and some aren\'t. I\'ve no idea of the percentages but I\'d be astonished if it was a majority. The update was shipped because this is the time when it is *starting* to happen (and is the same reason why newer iPhones are not included in this yet - there\'s no need for at least another year).\n\n>People out there reporting original iPhone and iPhone 4/5 still going strong?!\n\nNot "strong". The original iPhone is ten years old now, and had a battery that would last five years at the most. Sure, many old iPhones still work if you plug them into power and may even hold a charge for a while, but there\'s no way you can get through a day with one. Batteries degrade and lose capacity. No one has fixed that yet.', '> They chose dishonestly underclocking the CPU to disguise a manufacturing defect \n\nIt\'s not a manufacturing defect. It\'s how li-poly batteries work. [Here\'s](https://techcrunch.com/2017/02/23/apple-says-ios-10-2-1-has-reduced-unexpected-iphone-6s-shutdown-issues-by-80/) an article discussing it from months ago. \n\n"As far as I’m able to understand what happened here, Apple found that sudden spikes of activity to the maximum power draw could cause older batteries, which had some mileage on them, to deliver power in an uneven manner, which would cause an emergency shutdown of the devices."', "You are so far off it's not even funny\n", 'The boy who cried “sheeple” instead of considering that his comment could have been ignorant.', "isn't much labor lol how many iPhones sold again?", "Ah got it. The issue here is not the tech; it's how apple ultimately exploited it (in my opinion) for profit. And that explotaation includes lack of transparency, lack of communications, and de facto forced obsolescence. ", 'No such setting is required. If the battery health is good, this system will not be engaged.\n\nHowever, general kludge can also slow down the phone. Wiping it and resinstalling from backup can work in many cases. If you having trouble, it may be that. Best way to find out is to install Geekbench and run it.', "Voltage spikes is a known problem with old, beat up lithium-polymer batteries. Android phones with those batteries should be having the same problems. Either they are ignoring the voltage spikes, which is a problem but I'm not sure exactly how, or they're underclocking the CPU or they're resetting the phone.\n\nI expect there will be some revelations about Android li-poly batteries over the next few weeks to a month or - possibly - some explanation how they've avoided all this. I'd consider he latter to be unlikely, though.", 'Ive never owned an apple product in my life, never owned a phone worth more than $100 actually.....Yeah totally, the only sheep here is you "hurrr durrr evil capitalist pigs urrrr"', 'Would you? Or were you among those complaining about it and proclaiming Apple incompetent when the crashing phones [broke the news](https://techcrunch.com/2017/02/23/apple-says-ios-10-2-1-has-reduced-unexpected-iphone-6s-shutdown-issues-by-80/)?\n\nDamned if they do and damned if they don’t - as usual.', '> Yo shoot me the info on getting my Galaxy s6 battery changes for less than $30\n\ncourtesy of /u/krazytekn0 cause Id also like an answer to that. ', "What legitimate repair shop will charge me $29 for the cost of a new battery, plus the cost of labor, plus giving me the comfort in knowing that if they screw up, they'll give me a new phone?\n\nHate on Apple all you want but this is easily the best deal for a new battery.", "You literally never answered anyone else's questions in regards to original post. Oh right, it's because you're a liar.", "This is money coming out of their PR budget. They're banking on the fact that the number of iPhone users who care enough to be upset about this will get their phones fixed and then they won't spread bad word of mouth cause their issue is fixed. The people who don't care enough to know about this happening will continue to not care and the minority who would have made all those people that didn't care start to care are appeased. Yeah, technically this is gonna be a small cost to them every time they do it, figure the cost to buy the battery and ship it to a local apple store comes out to about $15-18 after you include all of apple's overhead. Payroll and overhead for the employee's time probably hits somewhere in the $20.00 range. But, the employee is already going to be working anyway so it's not that big of a deal. Technically apple is probably losing a few bucks each time with a battery replacement for $29.00 but that's better than that customer becoming a vocal oppenent of iPhone. It's pretty basic business that customers are more likely to spread good word-of-mouth when there's issues and problems that the company makes right vs. a product where there's no issues from the beginning. \n\n\n\nI hate iPhones, I think apple has lost its way in recent years and I would never suggest anyone I know buy apple products. But blind, unthinking hate is just as bad as blind unthinking fanboyism.", "... a loaf of bread costs about .50 cents to make, and sells for about $2, I don't see people up in arms about that 300% margin as well... ", "> Do you think that this explanation, as valid as it may be, will deter any class action suits?\n\nDeter? No. I think they will fail.\n\n>The simple fact that Apple intentionally reduced the ability of its older products without informing its customers of this beforehand means that this has a good chance of moving forward in the legal system.\n\nManagement of hardware to maximise the use of a computer is a standard operating system job. They all do it in a million little ways constantly - memory management, processor management, task management, power management... \n\nThey should have informed people, yes, but I don't see how there can be financial harm from not being informed, except in some rare cases where people bought a new phone where they could have bought a new battery. *That* would probably succeed. ", 'If by unstated, you mean the experiences of different people (myself included) that replaced the battery and saw the throttle disappear, then yes, groundless. ', "> I think they don't.\n\nYou're wrong. See [here](https://www.cultofmac.com/322477/apple-reaches-settlement-for-poaching-battery-engineers/), [here](https://www.wired.com/2015/03/apples-new-battery-tech/) and [here](http://appleinsider.com/articles/09/01/06/a_closer_look_at_apples_advanced_notebook_battery_tech).", "If the phones don't have a bad battery, they won't be slowed down. If they are slowed down, a new battery will correct it.", 'Seeing as it outperforms nearly all similarly priced phones from Android, I’d like to see a single Android phone that costs half as much that outperforms it.', "> So a large swath of people enjoy paying way too much for a product that doesn't outperform something I could pay half as much for? Got it.\n\nIf you're going to invent what you want other people to have said, then you don't need them at all. You can run the entire argument in your head.\n", 'No, I’m just someone who also owned Android phones and a stack of useless batteries. My coworker who’s LG G5 has batteries that are worthless already. Not some Chinese knockoff but LG branded that came with his phone.  His phone doesn’t make it to lunch. This wouldn’t be a big issue if it was any other company besides Apple. \n\nMy phone don’t last a single day on a single charge. I play gaming apps that heat up my phone and I can slam it into your face and brand an outline of the Apple logo. ', 'It’s literally on the website. It’s managed by the OS. \n\n>This power management works by looking at a combination of the device temperature, battery state of charge, and the battery’s impedance. Only if these variables require it, iOS will dynamically manage the maximum performance of some system components, such as the CPU and GPU in order to prevent unexpected shutdowns. As a result, the device workloads will self-balance, allowing a smoother distribution of system tasks, rather than larger, quick spikes of performance all at once. In some cases, a user may not notice any differences in daily device performance. The level of perceived change depends on how much power management is required for a particular device.', "Sounds like you're in the UK.  This sounds illegal.", 'If you paid by credit card contact your card company and price protection', 'Many times when Apple comes out with these quality programs they will offer refunds for people as well if you paid for a repair right before it started. Once the battery program starts, try calling Appl Care they may be able to help. ', 'Apple tech here. It’s not if we break the device you need to buy a new one, we’d give you a new one for free if that were the case, are you sure you were quoted that? I would talk to the manager immediatey if they positioned that. There is a possibility of data loss if we open up the device and sometimes phones fail during calibration so we have to factory reset them. This is why it’s always important to back up your data (well for any device really). \n\nTl;dr: talk to the manager if they really said they’d charge you if they fucked up during the repair process. ', 'I don’t think that’s policy. I’ve had a few phones replaced when I took them in for battery replacements. Once they told me they broke the screen getting it off, usually they say nothing.', 'This might help:\n\nRemember about 3 years ago when they found that iPhone 5 batteries had problems and offered owners a free battery replacement if the serial number of your phone was eligible?\n\nAbout a month before that announcement I had paid a third-party repairer to replace my battery.\n\n(At this point the phone was out of warranty, about 2 years old, and the repair cost me £40 which was about half what Apple wanted)\n\nSo I contacted Apple help, told them my story, sent them a scan of the £40 receipt for my battery repair, and they refunded me that cost. End result - I had a new battery at no cost to me (which was the whole point of the program, and a result I was happy with)\n\nSo you never know. Apple might refund you the difference between the price you paid, and the discounted price when this goes live.', "Sounds like you're skewing this story quite a bit to make you sound like a victim. Only time that happens is if you have damaged your phone and the repair is risky.", 'I went in for a battery replacement and when I came back after a few hours, they told me they broke my phone trying to get my battery out and therefore they were going to replace my iPhone 6 with a brand new one for the $80 it cost to replace my battery. I was thrilled, the old phone had so many issues that were all fixed for 80 bucks. They won’t charge you for breaking a phone.', 'That would indeed not have been fair, and EU consumer protection laws would have been on your side.', 'Its not fair; its Apple. ', 'Sounds like you should stop buying from a company that treats you that way.', "> How is that fair??\n\nBecause fuck you it's Apple. This is what happens when you have an end-to-end closed system. It's their entire business model.\n\n* We own it. We service it. We control everything about it. We dictate the price. Don't like it? Leave. \n\nAnd thanks to the worlds greatest marketing team, it works. And yes their integration with other Apple gear is great, but that is why. They want you all in on their system, so you never leave because it will be either insanely costly to leave all at once or it will be rough to leave in stages.", 'They forgot about those old iPhones. ;-)', 'This is mean but also true. ', 'So much this', 'No, due to a tragic accident in the line of duty, I cannot speak. I took a bullet in the tongue, you see.', 'The phone is water resistant but water vapor can seep into any device sitting in a steamy bathroom over time that is not water proof. This is very common in 7s because they are only meant to be water resistant (drop it in the sink for a second or two and dry it off it will be fine). Constantly keeping it in a warm moist environment for months will do that to anythingg water resistant or less.', "It's not like they're making it up. Water obviously got far enough into the phone to cause corrosion damage.\n\nedit: oh, and you can request they show you photos of the damage if you don't believe them.", "I started seeing issues with my phone after keeping it on the sink while showering. I've always wondered if it was the clouds of steam that were affecting it...", 'Right words and right person.', "I don't mean to be a jerk, but I find that incredibly difficult to believe. Did he have extended warranty or some everything-covered insurance provided by Apple?   ", 'Meanwhile, I spilled water on my laptop and it was a $700 repair because AppleCare doesn’t cover water damage.', "That sounds like _shitty_ customer service. Bending over backwards for someone who clearly broke their own shit? Bad idea. And now you're telling other people about this, who will expect similar treatment at their Apple Store.  \nFuck your dad for even going in asking about warranty anymore (or not telling them he spilled water on it?)", "i'm charging my Iphone 6 - 2-3 times a daily. Once overnight and at least once during the day.", "I'm lucky to get 1 hour of use before I need to plug mine in :/", "What phone do you have that you can't go through most of a day? Unless you use it every minute?", "My wife would be too. I can get about 2 days out if my battery on my samsung\n\nI also don't have FB on here nor do I have GPS turned on. It's weird having Google asked me to check in everywhere I go. Really fucking weird.", "In my experience, the biggest power drain isn't the screen.  I mean, \nwhen the screen is on it's the biggest drain, but overall the biggest power drain is fucking location services.  When my Nexus 5x has location services off I can get 36 to 48 hours between charges easily.  When it's on I'm lucky to get 12.\n", "Unless I use it *really* heavily on a given day I get around 12-16 hours on my Pixel XL.  That includes using wifi, email, web browsing, location services, gaming, and some video.  If I go really heavy on the video, such as when I'm travelling and binge on Netflix or Sling then I'll get maybe 8 before I have to charge.   I'm not always on my phone but it is always checking email (I get a lot) and I use it quite a bit for reading news on the web plus the aforementioned gaming.  ", 'True. That’s pretty much what I’m saying as well. But I have to disagree about the 5 hour SOT. I just bought my IX and I spent an entire day just surfing different apps and I got about 7 hours SOT with quite a lot of battery left. But yeah, I agree about the conditions of use. I turn my brightness all the way down. It really depends. ', "my iphone 4 was perfect when i upgraded, two months later when i gave it to my brother as a loaner phone the battery had inexplicably 'died' while stored in a cool, dry place. i'm still salty 2.5 years later. if they hadn't insisted on 'recycling' the phone for him i would fucking love to make good on this...", 'I watched the entire season of Dark on my new Blackberry. Started with a full charge and ended around 10%. Screen brightness was at about 1/6th if that helps.', 'Sounds good. Thanks!', "I don't think stolen phones are a big market anymore. Your IMEI will be blacklisted faster than you can say _insurance claim_ and the phone will cease to connect to a mobile network.", 'Doesn’t that void the warranty though ', "That's insane.", "They're typed like in English, with the main difference is how the result appear\n\n신사동 is written by pressing these letters: ㅅ ㅣ ㄴ ㅅ ㅏ ㄷ ㅗ ㅇ\n\nSome need to be typed twice eg. ㅅ ㅅ for ㅆ", 'Korean actually uses an alphabet as opposed to other Asian languages like Chinese or Japanese, so they type much the same as we do.', 'Honestly why would they though? Like half of iphone is made by samsung. More iphones they sell, more money they make 🤷\u200d♂️', "They are pretty popular. They have a few authorized service centers. They usually release the new phone 4-12 weeks after it's released in the US. \n\nIt's very hard for foreign businesses to break into South Korea. That's probably the reason they didn't have one earlier. Most foreign company's have to enter into a deal with a local company for them to open shops or sell goods.", 'Not really. They are obviously second behind samsung here (not by a big margin, younger generation generally prefers apple it seems like), but apple always neglected south korea. They always release iphones like couple months after everyone else and always refused to build apple store until now. It really screwed korean apple customers as they didnt really have an easy platform to fix their apple products or warranty them easily. So its more like apple hates korea than anything else', 'I expect this sort of shit to be a leaked news in 2 years.', 'He said Alexa, not Siri...', 'Amazon doesn’t benefit at all from having IPhones out of business. They are the number 1 downloaders and uses of amazon apps by far.', "It's not like you need a reminder for that. ", 'Ok wklink, I’ll remind you, just remember you can’t even replace a battery from google for this pixel.', "I mean this is better than anything Google will ever do.\n\nI had a Nexus 6P and that had the absolute worst battery life ever. It would just shut off on me with 35% left after only owning it for a year. And what did Google do for me? Nada. \n\nNow I have a 6S plus and the battery had been great up until iOS 11. I was disappointed and looking to possibly upgrade but with this announcement I'll definitely be taking it in to get a new battery and keeping it for another year or so.\n\nApple has great customer service, there's no denying that.", 'Got a new partner.', 'or bought a non apple device', "Yeah, I've used Android and have Android tablets, Apple works better for me day to day with how I use my phone so I'll stick with them.", 'If by "win" you mean Apple made a product that /u/bolognaballs wanted badly enough to pay for then yeah, guess they won.\n\nWhat\'s up with this hostile attitude? ', 'I have used Android and still use Android tablets, apple phones work better for my day to day so I stick with them.', 'You don’t have to worry about updates that slow your phone down, or any updates really. ', "Don't yet! Wait until you get a phone with treble.", "It's not like Android is much better. Samsung is literally Apple 2.0 right now.", "Yep, I had the exact same issue and it was one of the issues that drove me to the Pixel 2 XL after eight years with the iPhone. I had the slowdowns after 10.2.1, I had the random shutdowns prior to that, the battery was just shit in general. It was clear as day.\n\nBut the diagnostics would always show that despite it being close to needing replacing by Apple's standards, and despite me even offering up cash for them to replace it, they wouldn't have a bar of it. I tried *three times* before giving up.\n\nIt shit me off as despite those issues, the iPhone 6s was still a very solid fast phone even in 2017. The battery-induced slowdowns just made me give up with it.", "They aren't making much at 30 bucks, esp not apple margins. Clearly they will only do it when the battery needs to be replaced.", 'I read the press release, and I agree it completely fails to mention the slowdown of old models. That is entirely my point. I did replace my iPhone 5 battery, as I mentioned. It looks to me like the issue has been magically waved away by a battery discount. ', "> And the customer's forgetful enough\n\nCome on dude, customers aren't goldfish. People aren't forgetting Apple screwing them over, but doing something worse; they're forgiving Apple.\n\nReasons include; Stockholm's, feeling the overall Apple product is worth being lied to, or simply unable to leave the ecosystem.", 'Unless they aren’t lies. It’s just speculation that they are. ', 'With decades of evidence of similar actions as a foundation to support that speculation...', "Decades of it.  It's really common knowledge, mate.\n\nWhy don't you know about any of this?  ", "Pretty sure it is in their interest. If you like your iPhone, but haven't upgraded in 2 years, thats 2 models of phones that you didn't buy meaning less money in Apple's pocket. They aren't making it unusable, just slowing it down so you'll look at upgrading to a newer model.", "Well, actually, it's only done to save them money.  They could easily pay for the additional programmers needed to keep legacy devices updated in both the OS and patches.  It wouldn't slow down any progress on the newer devices at all.\n\nBut that would cost them millions of dollars over the long haul to keep users happy with their previous purchases.  And, well, they might not upgrade as often.\n\nThis is how you amass $250 billion in cash, folks.  Well, that, and stashing it overseas using tax loopholes to not pay corporate taxes on your profits, of course.", "Except that the hardware did suppprt different versions, Apple chose to artificially limit what I could and couldn't do with the device for no good reason that was apparent. It worked fine once you bypassed the artificial limit they placed on it", 'Really?? Mind linking me the install you used?  Ive banges my head against it and gotten nowhere', 'I wish to hear you rant on Google and Microsoft. \n\nMicrosoft pisses me off because they "forget" they have hardware and don\'t know how to make a pleasurable end user experience. Even after making a big deal about the hardware, they forget what it is; Kinect, Dial, Studio...', 'I blame crapple for not offering an old version!!!', 'You know what?  My smartphone can be opened up and the battery replaced with just my fingers.', '5s does get higher than 10.2.1', "Completely incorrect, my 5s can update to iOS 11 if I wanted to. I refuse to though because people have said if you don't have the latest iPhone it will drain your battery and slow down your phone.", 'Not true. My 5S is running iOS 11.2 right now, and I’ve avoided installing the latest update for a while now. \n\nI think you’re thinking of the 5. Its OS will only update to 10.something.\n\nEdit: removed oops apostrophe ', 'iPhone _5C_ on 10.2.1 here, and Apple prompts me all the time to upgrade to the next version', 'Then why is it bugging me about updating to 11 every single time I plug it in or go to settings and a permanent notification on my home screen', 'Yeah, my phone can shut down anytime below 50%, or even higher in cold weather. What’s surprising to me is that it began to happen fairly soon after I bought it.\n\nAnd I agree, if they had communicated that this is what they did, alternatively giving people the choice to do it manually, they probably wouldn’t have this backlash.', "You mean no communication. If that dev didn't stumble into this, this would still be unknown.", 'Smoke and a pancake?', 'It should be up to the user to decide how to balance performance and battery life. A single slider with "lasts longer" at one end, and "faster" at the other end would do it.', "Not swappable doesn't mean not replaceable", "100% agreed. Also I think iPhone 6s users should be annoyed that their device obviously can't last that long with the stock battery before battery degradation causes throttling to be required. There's going to be another shitstorm when all the replaced batteries start failing and the exact same issue pops up again.", 'You\'re right, I take that back. The technical issue is that the iPhone 6s consumes its battery too quickly. Their response, because I\'m assuming this is a design problem that can\'t be "fixed," was to release a software update that mitigated the problem.\n\n\nThe response everyone is having has nothing to do with that, though.', "That's them denying device owners compatibility to force them to buy the new version, which is shitty and one of the many reasons I'll personally never buy an Apple product, but it's not the same as them slowing down devices currently in circulation.", 'When the iPad came out there wasn’t really any similar products available. The notion that they deliberately left out features like a back camera to drive future upgrades is pure speculation, it could have been for many other reasons, from cost to space in the device.', 'They did the same thing with the original iphone.', 'Your comment reads like one long argument from lack of imagination. ', '“Dear user,\n\nWould you like to:\n\na) have a slightly slower phone when doing intensive tasks or\n\nb) have a phone that shuts down when it tries to do intensive tasks at full speed”\n\nDo you really think it’s rational to give users the choice between a phone that turns itself off when they’re trying to draw too much current, or a phone that performs slightly slower than it used to sometimes? Imagine what they would say if Apple didn’t make this feature... “Apple is making my phone crash to try to get me to buy another one!”', 'This problem is by no means unique to Apple.', 'The battery is going to degrade one way or another. They need to handle that to prevent the entire system from crashing. ', "Yeah that's most people. This entire thing was overblown.", 'They know that public opinion is turning rapidly against them. I have no doubt that there are scabs and shills all over reddit. \n\nThe fact that the Koch\'s are spending millions of dollars to promote the new "tax reform" instead of using that money to raise wages or create new jobs is a disgrace and should tell you everything you need to know.', "Stop pretending planned obselescence isn't a thing, and that everything is roses. It's not. ", 'Did they provide an option to have the old phone never update and actually keep an OS it could run comfortably?', 'The economic system under which we live dictates so much of our society. And that marketing is part of the system that turns people into zombies bent on consumption. \n\nIn my experience only edgelords say edgelord.', 'They obviously have something to hide if employees wouldn’t re-iterate “we do this to combat aging batteries”. And you’re insane or naive if you believe the CPU in the 6s can’t handle iOS 11. Not to mention geekbench also found throttling in iPhone 7’s. ', "The problem is that it also means fuck all, what causes the message? How bad is the battery, etc.\n\nPerhaps it's time that some regulations were passed to force companies to implement some minimum battery stats to show health for devices that have non-removable batteries.", "That should have been a popup, not a tiny bit of text that users have to manually find in a place most wouldn't think to look.", 'Never showed up on my phone. How about they not degrade the performance at all, regardless of the battery.', 'You mean the back door they pretended not to know about, fought and won a case with them and the government knowing it was a smokescreen and then "patched it" after the government got what they wanted. Also just one of many back doors made for the NSA et al.', 'And now that policeman you refused to turn over your passcode to can force you to look at your iPhone X and unlock it with Face ID, or better yet, print a 3D replica of your face and gain access to your phone without your knowledge.\n\nApple not only built the backdoor the government requested but made you pay for it.', "THe people can demand all they want. They don't demand with their wallets. Time and time again the people have shown they will complain, then pay whatever the companies want them to pay.", 'How much does it cost your mom to support your basement existence?', 'Just imagine what this subreddit would have looked like if iPhones had the exploding Note 7 problem and Apple had responded the way Samsung did.', 'Well you can’t really do that. iOS updates always include bundles of features so over time a device can’t handle that many. It doesn’t happen with Android because Android doesn’t update too often and when it does it’s just bug fixes. ', 'Lol how is that in any way a straw man?', "It's a used phone I bought from work - there's no battery warning yet, but fuck it, 30$ is too good", 'Just got it. Already obsolete ', 'Wrong. The slowdown only happens on phones with old batteries. As soon as the battery is changed the processor goes back to full power.', "I'm a manager who wouldn't dream of doing this to my customers. Maybe my management philosophy differs. But this doesn't seem resolved. ", "As a former engineer, I'm not at all surprised that regular people think that a parts breakdown for a production build has no bearing on the cost of replacement parts nor the overhead required to actually replace them.\n\nI want you to imagine what it would cost to replace every replaceable part in your car. It's a hell of a lot more than you paid for it.\n\nComponents don't exist in a vacuum. The batteries were only this cheap for a production run because they bought millions of them in bulk.", "Conspicuously missing from that infographic: Hardware research and development, firmware R&D, software R&D, material overhead, sales space overhead, logistics, international legislation and negotiations, HR, payroll, building maintenance... do I really need to go on?\n\nStop acting like I could dump a bag of iPhone components on your desk and you could make them into a functioning product.\n\nOr, how about this: Nut up and buy every iPhone component and assemble it and prove us all wrong.\n\nYou'd likely be in for $100k and 1,000 man hours to make one iPhone.", 'Which is pretty much the same thing, but more politically-correct-appearing.', 'Ah, is that why people were saying that all the other battery health apps were unreliable (except for the indicator in Settings), before this whole story broke?', 'How naive are you? Lol', 'That sounds like a decision made by executives, not engineers.', "Do a Google search. You'll learn about their shenanigans with the battery health apis", 'They had a pretty decent battery data API but decided to botch it in iOS 10 by removing battery cycles, battery instant amperage, battery temperature and power adapter voltage and wattage information.', "I was personally more surprised that I couldn't get the same info out of any Android phone I researched.\n\nE: as a tech, installing apps without customer consent was a no-no. I couldn't find an app to install on the work Mac to get the info from the devices. Always made me sad because I personally use Androids.", 'Sounds like a very Apple thing to do.  Just get an Android phone and be done with it.\n', 'This actually happened to my sister when we were there recently. Her phone just would not power on, and they said that according to the test, the motherboard died or something. Given that Apple salesman don’t work off commission, I figured there was nothing to be skeptical about, but you’ve got me second guessing that. ', 'Yeah, like when Equifax let everyone\'s data be stolen and was like "sorry guys, please pay us to make sure you don\'t get your identity comprised by OUR fuck up, thanks". They can, because no one is going to hold them accountable. ', 'As someone with an iPhone 6plus, with a battery health of 69% capacity, this is a big deal. \n\nThere is a huge number of us who have a terrible battery life on our phones and even though Apple downclocks the processor, it’s still hard to get away from an outlet. I can’t imagine how fast my battery would drain or my phone would randomly shut down if they didn’t slow my phone down a little. \n\nI would’ve had to purchase a new battery over a year ago.', 'iPhones are user friendly and stylish, and apple generally has good customer support.  No, they\'re not the leader in phone tech, but the phones are not bad phones.  "In the face of logic"?  People buy white t-shirts for 120 dollars.  It seems like this is a very emotional topic for you... no need to hate people with iPhones.', 'Manufacturing defect?\nEvery single battery on the planet suffers from the same issues - they degrade with age and lose capacity as well as the voltage they can supply.\n\nLaptops, phones, portable speakers, EVs ... they all suffer from the exact same problem.', 'Once a week? I get a pop up every few hours', "It's obviously a cover up of a manufacturing defect which has now gone public.\n\nThey've known about the random shutdown defect when the battery is at 80% or less capacity since 2015.\n\nProof-  They updated their battery replacement policy in 2015 to replace batteries at 80% or less capacity for AppleCare covered phones, where previously 50% was required for a warranty replacement\n\nhttps://www.macrumors.com/2015/06/29/applecare-mac-batteries-80-percent/\n\n", 'I guarantee you that there would/will be just as many pissed off people if/when the phone sends you a notification saying that performance is limited because the battery is worn and needs to be replaced. I don’t think that what Apple did was necessarily the most transparent thing by throttling back without telling the user, but I can understand why they did it. It was a trade off between battery life/stability and performance, and they chose stability.', 'Software is free, new batteries isn’t...', 'There’s literally no evidence that Apple is not honest. It’s a fact iPhones were shutting down randomly, and the software throttling fixed that problem. That has nothing to do with planned obsolescence. It’s not like they have been throttling iPhones for 10 years. They added this software update because of iPhones shutting off. \n\nThis is a completely different issue from the point that they should have notified users of this situation. Yes, they should have.', '> So which is it?  Is the battery fine, or does it need to be throttled?\n\nI’m not sure. Apple hasn’t shared with us what the threshold is for a battery to trigger the throttling. I can tell you that typically batteries aren’t replaced unless the health of it is <80%. \n\n> What is the Apple response at that time?\n\nSo far just the public apology and all that was outlined within it. We haven’t been given any internal messages prior to this or since I’ve been in. \n\n>   They need to inform their techs that  throttling occurs\n\nYeah that would have made my life and my customers lives much easier. Apple could have avoided a lot of this by being more transparent and forthcoming with its employees and its customers. \n\n> What has your advice been when customers have brought their phone in complaining of slowness, but the battery diagnostic runs fine?\n\nGenerally is you’re just getting system wide sluggishness and all of your hardware has been checked out we recommend a full restore and setting the phone up as new instead of restoring from a backup. Obviously make sure you have anything important on the device saved somewhere else, preferably in the cloud. That way you can bring it back down afterwards. ', 'My 98% health battery is "fine" with no notifications, but Apple still feels it needs to throttle it for some reason:\n\nhttps://imgur.com/a/QJTum\n', 'People want to know just how “fine” it is. Is it 95% health or 85% health? There’s a huge difference beteeen those two things. ', "Same here. My S5 has lasted forever. Only problem now it's a huge security risk because it doesn't get OS updates. ", "The V10 was awesome. I didn't know there was a V30 out already! ", "The knowledge is freely available and you'd have to buy the replacement battery anyway.", "Yeah that's not a great comparison", 'because power banks are bulky spare batteries are not', "Because sometimes it's more convenient to simply swap the battery and instantly have a full battery.", 'It is so much more convenient than power banks. \n\nMy old Samsung i780 shipped with two batteries and an external charger. I was *never* stuck at an outlet, since I could just plop a fresh battery in, start the phone up again and be on my way with full battery. I miss that feature so much.\n\nPowerbanks are extremely impractical in comparison. They are far larger and now you have to hold two devices at once when using your phone or struggle with a wire hanging from your pocket to your phone.\n\nIt is like the difference between having a spare magazine for your gun instead of a bulk box of ammo in your pocket.', "Because you're only cool if you're dangling your iPhone from a Mophie Juicepack, right?", "I've been taking my non-waterproof phone in the shower for... 5 years and never once had a problem. Am I just really good at not getting my phone wet? ", ">  taking it out hiking or biking without worrying\n\nWhat happens when you drop it? Water resistance does fuck-all when it falls out of your pocket onto a hard rock while, say, hiking or biking. \n\n>battery banks have solved the battery swapping days\n\nEvidently not or this thread wouldn't exist. ", 'An IP67 or IP68 rated device isn’t rated for use in the shower. ', "I can't see a damn thing without my glasses so this use case just seems bizarre to me unless I am meant to shower with my glasses on", "yeah, it's about risks, or things you can't plan. Oh it's raining outside? Doesn't matter, it won't break.", 'That is if you have a service center nearby. I wanted to get the battery in my S7 replaced. It was either travel 5 hours to get it replaced at a Best Buy or send it to Samsung for a week. \n\nIf you take it to a non-Samsung place, the waterproofing is void anyway. \n\nCost was still around 70. ', 'Replace a Samsung battery in 20 minutes? Ok.', 'You could just get a waterproof case and have a phone with a removable battery. That solves both issues. ', "Granted I'm not on Apple products, but an $80 purchase price for a replacement battery is insane to me whether or not they're putting it in. So either way I guess that's a deal breaker.\n\nBut in general yeah I'd rather do it myself in 5 minutes than wait around at the Apple store, because the Apple store is a pain in the ass. ", "There isn't exactly an Apple Store on every corner. So as an example I would have to drive 30+ minutes across town, wait 30+ minutes to get the battery replaced, then another 30+ to get home? Pain in the ass. My time is worth something.\n\nThe alternative is just order a replacement battery online and install it myself in 1 minute with a removable back.\n\nDon't get me wrong, I think that watertight is awesome (and appropriate for some people), but for me personally it is unnecessary. I think that is what OP is getting at.", "When replaceable batteries were the norm, I never came close to paying full price for replacements, either due to competition from resellers, or just buying cheaper third-party batteries.  \n\nAnd I'd much rather be able to buy my battery online and have it shipped to my door than have to make a special trip to the mall (or wherever) and having to waste half an hour of my time paying someone to do something I could do at home.  \n\n", "i can get a new battery for 30$ or less(13.99) for my S5 delivered to my door. I believe for the models after that which don't have removable batteries, it costs 70+$ to get it replaced. So it costs less than half to replace if it were removable. \n\nEdit, i just checked and the one i buy for mine is $13.99", "What about *labor cost*?\n\nIf a phone model has user-replaceable batteries, then all-else-being equal, you'd be able to buy the battery (and do the replacement yourself), for a significantly lower price, than to let a shop employee gently heat and pry open a non-user-replaceable-battery phone, and install the new battery and close up the phone again!", ">Ok. I don't understand. How does the battery being removable fix the problem of the battery degrading? \n\nI'd be able to order a battery online and replace it myself without the need for any special tools, technical expertise, or even having to leave my couch.  \n\n> And for the most part, at least in my experience, even on phones without removable batteries the problem can be solved at the store. \n\nNot everybody lives within reasonable driving distance of an Apple store.  \n\n>They just give you a new or refurbished phone and only charge you for the battery replacement. \n\nAnd for people who don't want a new phone because, battery issues aside, their phone was otherwise working just fine?  People don't want the hassle of having to set everything up again, download all their apps, migrate their contacts, etc.  \n\n>And you'll probably have to go to the phone store to do it. I genuinely feel like I'm missing something here. \n\nI've been using cell phones for a couple of decades now.  Before the current generation of phones where non-replaceable batteries became a thing, do you know how many times I had to go to the store to replace the battery?  \n\nZero.  \n\nI just ordered them on Amazon or Ebay, waited for the battery to come in, and replaced it myself.  No special tools, voiding warranties, or special skills required.   No need to go out of my way to make a trip to the store, buy an overpriced battery, and pay to have some techie replace it for me.\n\n", "No one makes  them anymore. That's the problem. Especially flagships. ", "Turns out, very few people actually did that, so it's not a mainstream feature anymore. ", 'No phones today are waterproof', 'Point being?', 'Technically there are no waterproof phones, just extremely water resistant phones. The distinction is all but irreverent for most people at this point.', "Some people just need a car that can get them from A to B and doesn't cost an arm and a leg to fix every single component. \n\nIf technology that boosts mpg by that much existed today, sure, but there's been very small leaps in efficiency... Just check out mpg values for a car like a Honda Civic over the last 20 years. ", 'I have some tools from replacing a hard drive to an old iPod. It is $110 to have done. May be worth it. \n\nEdit: Than you!', 'I only buy amazon basics charger cables now, I’ve never had a problem.', "Well aren't you just a good little Apple apologist aren't you.", 'I’ve been using the same belkin lightning cable to charge my phone for three years. Stop buying your stuff at gas stations ', '>\tThey have a monopoly on cables marketed with apple name\n\nThat’s like saying Coca-Cola has a monopoly on Coke products...', "That's fucking insane that a gig can't hold two apps. You can watch over an hour of 720p video in a gig.", 'It was the iPhone 6 Plus. And it only started acting this way after the battery-saving update.', 'You are 100% right. I had a 6+ when it originally came out and my biggest complaint was that its limited RAM meant it could only hold 1-2 apps in memory at once. Nothing’s changed in that regard. ', "B-b-but Apple has magical software that makes 1GB seem to be 3-4GB equivalent to Android?! /s\n\nThat's why I would've never recommended an iPhone 6 to anyone. Simply because they had 1GB for far too long by then and it was already old as it came out. But iPhone people don't care about that. They'd rather buy another Apple product and fall into their tricks and reward Apple with more money than stand up and not getting a new phone at all for a while or go to the competition (which would be better...). Apple will continue to fuck you guys and you do nothing against it.", 'Don’t think Apple was being malicious here. They don’t need to brick people’s phones to get them to buy new ones, they do pretty well without that ', "I'm not going to argue against their mishandling of the situation, but all this circlejerking around this affair is grossly exaggerated. Just pointing out that at the core there's a legitimate issue they've been working around, and they've been doing it as they've always been doing things, with no information to the user. Which is too minimal in this case.", 'How was he supposed to know it was an issue of planned obsolescence until Geekbench discovered it? Free market solutions only work if you have full, perfect information.', 'Nope.\n\nBack in September, someone at Harvard did a study on the internet searches for "iPhone slow" and found direct correlation with new iPhone model releases: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-2709502/Does-Apple-deliberately-slow-old-models-new-release-Searches-iPhone-slow-spike-ahead-launches.html\n\nSame search, substituting iPhone for other devices, did not repeat the same pattern. This was what sparked the whole suspicion.\n\nThe most recent shift of attention for devices being slowed down FOR YEARS into a battery issue is nothing else than Apple\'s damage control and taking the control over the narrative. And it\'s working. Nobody seems to mention this has been going on since as early as 2008, and not only with recent power management iOS updates.', 'whys that? does an x not have the normal top status bar like the rest of iphones?', 'what i meant in my comment is there currently isnt an app that can tell if your phone is not healthy as this seems to be something apple have to bring out in a software update. a little while ago i did a test with apple and they tested my awful iphone 5 battery (goes down 20% in half an hour) and they said it was perfectly fine lol. dont believe anything they tell you!', "Ditto. Not even on Project Fi and Google replaced my two year old 6P with a brand new Pixel XL because of battery drain issues. I'll take a free $800 newer phone replacement over a $29 battery any day.", 'This is a worldwide issue and Project Fi is US only. ', "This happens on laptops too. To claim it's only phones is extremely dishonest.\n\nI'm not sure if Android throttles, or just allows shutdowns, but it's impossible for a battery to deliver the factory charge for its entire lifetime.\n\nI believe Apple claims 600 cycles. \n\nThe first 300 cycles typically last ~1 day, then you'll need to charge more frequently, which makes the problem spiral out of control.\n\nMost people don't treat their phone batteries very well, charging all through the night, letting their batteries discharge to a very low level etc.\n\nIdeally you would charge between 20% and 80% almost all the time, but most people probably do 10% - 100%, which increases degredation.", '6p. The nexus six was great. ', 'My Samsung S4 and S5 would shut down randomly whenever the battery neared end of lifespan--that and the battery level was wildly unpredictable (would drop from 50% to zero instantly for instance). At least those phones had user-replaceable batteries though.', "Yeah no. You got lucky. I used to own the device and so did many of my friends. We didn't get a replacement battery. Nexus 6P owners didn't either.", 'Oh I wish  that phone had an easily replaceable battery. Would have saved me so much time/money/headache. Hopefully removable batteries start making a comeback.', 'Windows 10 is more efficient than Windows 7, which was more efficient than Vista.', 'I was under the assumption that better optimized code can complete tasks in fewer clock cycles which should actually improve battery performance. ', "Didn't have to be. These new iOS features aren't particularly innovative, so not sure where the memory drain comes from. Not to mention, don't force me to upgrade if that's the case. ", "Too bad there's no option to turn off update notifications", "No, these updates do not require top of the line processors to run.  \n\nThat is the perception that you would have observing a processor underclocked from 1400 mHz to 600 mHz trying to run the latest update, though.\n\nYou're better off refusing updates after a newer model is released because Apple purposely ~~shits on you to peer pressure you into buying a new phone~~ underclocks your processor to protect you from random shutdowns due to ~~a manufacturing defect~~ 80% or less battery life.", 'Any newer Samsung/HTC/Motorola device has an extremely difficult battery to replace, the devices are glued together. \n', "Nope, I had that issue on my Motorola X Play. It was constantly shuting down after 3 years of good services... The battery can't be replaced (for no good reason sadly,  you can remove the back cover like any phone where you can replace the battery, it's not made to save space or anything).\n\nI bought the Moto Z2 Play. Still can't remove the battery but at least now it's for a good reason, it's an aluminium body and the phone is so freaking thin. The Moto Mods also allow some kind of battery too, which could be considered as a replacement.", "Yes it does, that's a very fair point.  Apple's communication on this has been rough.  ", 'Where does that notification tell you it has gimped the performance of the phone?  ', "From what I've read, the system starts gimping the performance of the phone well before the battery message appears.  Furthermore, that article doesn't state that the system will be slowed down, it just states that you'll get a message that you should replace your battery.  It totally sidesteps the perceived issue, which is planned obsolescence. ", 'Low power mode is for when you want your last 15% of charge to last longer. It has nothing to do with the batteries capacity or the phone actually limiting itself in terms of performance. ', 'How old are you', 'You’re delusional... he stated exactly what happened. Battery replacements have always been 80$, they aren’t trying to get you to spend your money, it’s a discount.', 'I’m not saying they don’t happen. I’m saying that the iPhone 6/s/ Plus started seeing much worse shutdowns on iOS 10.  If the problem wasn’t getting worse (or worse than usual), Apple would have never released a “fix”\n\nLike I said - mine never shut down - not even once - until after updating. I’m sure many will attest to this.', '...ed down so that it doesn’t shut off and become a safety issue.', 'You know what else is being artificially limited? Your muscles.\n\nIf it wasn\'t for that damn nervous system you could jump much farther, run much faster, and generally perform extreme feats of strength.\n\nThe reason the body does this is that your muscles would absolutely wreck your bones, ligaments, and other vital parts of your body. You\'d also get hurt very often, as landing from a 10m jump usually results in bodily damage.\n\nI\'m sure that you\'d prefer to "live fast and die young", but the idea is to make your phone, and body, actually usable ... not have it crash and break when you need it the most.\n\nIf your options are:\n\n1. Phone performs well but shuts off randomly at ~20-50% charge\n2. Phone is slower, but it lasts until 0% all the time\n\nWhy on earth would you choose option 1? It\'d suck balls to be filming a video of a surprise birthday and then your phone randomly dies.', 'Or Apple has way more overhead that needs to be covered by the price. Not defending them, it’s a problem that starts and begins with them, but they aren’t definitely profiting because it’s cheaper at a local store. ', "Apple's warranty on the battery replacement is much better.", 'True, they’re still making a profit, but I’d still say Apple is opening the replacement program up to more people by charging $50 less than before.  If they made it too cheap you’d probably see unnecessarily long lines at Genius bars and people replacing their batteries even if they didn’t really need to.', 'I really want to understand your position, because I honestly don’t. How do you think they “intentionally fucked up” his phone?', 'What? How on earth did they cause the degradation?', "You're 100% right about all that.\n\nApple can't get away with it but it seems like they will... As always... DON'T STOP TRYING THOUGH. I hope the class action suit will do some justice.", 'The iOS that caused this "problem" hasn\'t even been out for a year.\n\nIf $79 is a lot of money to you, you\'ve got bigger problems than copping longer battery life on a 5 year old phone.', 'Apple apologists are saying this... but they do not paste the relevant lines of the patch notes... because this is what the notes say:\n\n> **iOS 10.2.1**\n>\n> It also improves power management during peak workloads to avoid unexpected shutdowns on iPhone.\n\nlol. It would\'ve been more defensible if it had included words like: "apps might take longer to load", "throttled", "slowed down", "capped", "reduced clock speed".\n\nCompare with relevant part of the **apology letter**:\n\n> With the update, iOS *dynamically manages the maximum performance* of some system components when needed to prevent a shutdown. While these changes may go unnoticed, in some cases users may experience longer launch times for apps and other reductions in performance.\n\nDat PR euphemism.', 'Im sure when customers asked about poor performance, every apple tech referred those patch notes', "Which they know nobody ever reads, i.e. 'the small print'.", 'When did Apple deny this? Seriously, please cite this.', 'Their phones just shuts down.  Mutch preferrable/s', 'I can’t argue with that. ¯\\_(ツ)_/¯ ', 'But it was easy as fuck, 2 screws and a clip.', 'If you want someone else to change your iPhone battery that has always been relatively easy.', 'Imagine how huge a phone built with camera grade tech would be', 'Which camera do you own?', "Maybe don't make claims you can't back up.", "> It definitely doesn't take an employee with the proper tools an hour though, hardly even half an hour.\n\nI believe you misunderstood. OP is likely referring to the notion of giving up an hour or 2 of one's own salary to have a professional solve the problem for you.  I feel the same way.  If my phone stops working well due to a battery issue, I can either a) go upgrade the phone to the tune of (historically)$4-500 or b) go get the battery replaced for around what I earn in 90ish minutes, with a full warranty on the parts and the work. I don't care if they are making a profit.  They are solving a problem that lets **me** be profitable.", "> Apple didn’t give us the option to replace the battery and de-fuck the iOS software.\n\nThis is simply not true.  AFAIK, Apple has always offered a way to replace the battery on an aging phone.\n\n> Even if I’d decided to replace the battery on my own, I’d still have been stuck with a slowed down iOS software.\n\nAlso not true.  Apple explicitly says that the OS *only* throttles when the battery is aging and incapable of keeping up with system demand.  Replace the battery, performance is restored.\n\n> How are you fanboying over this shit?\n\nI'm not a fanboi - but I'm sick of all the lies and whining from people about this.  I use Apple products, and I have a number of beefs with some of their design decisions, but not this one.  Favoring a slowed-down experience over lost data is the right choice, imho.  I'm also a software engineer, and I'd **much** rather provide a solution that takes longer to complete than one that may possibly lose my user's data at some point.\n\nOh, and you keep claiming that other manufacturers somehow have magical batteries that never have problems... Samsung, I'm looking at you and that flight I was on that nearly had to be canceled because some guy with a Note 7 didn't want to give up his phone after the FAA decided that they could not even be allowed on a plane AT ALL.\n\n", 'To be fair, they *do* let you know when the battery might be affecting your phone negatively under the [battery tab in settings.](https://imgur.com/a/ieFen)', 'Taking Apple at their word - after they’ve denied slowdowns, been caught, and then activate the PR machine - seems pretty dumb.  \n\nAt the end of the day Apple introduced a software ‘upgrade’ which slowed down performance on their product, leading to increased sales as customers upgraded hardware.  It wouldn’t shock me if the performance slowdowns affected more users than just those with degraded batteries.  Apple is, after all, just another corporation, and corporations always seek to maximize profit.', 'To offer a first hand account. My iPhone 6 has had shutdown issues pretty regularly. I didn’t realize it went away until this news story came up. If it slowed my phone down I didn’t notice but I was sure happy my phone wasn’t shutting down at 40%', "What are you talking about? Google phones have also been known to suffer from this problem. That's why they were shelling out free pixels for a month because people's phones were shutting down and they took their time acknlowledging it. My moms lg g4 has gone through three batteries and random shut downs. After not even a full year of use my galaxy s4 had a bloated battery. Phones shutting off at random percentages is practically a universal thing. Phones are engineered properly, lithium ion batteries just have a lot of drawbacks.", '> operating way too close to the limits of the battery\n\nExactly. this wasn\'t a "new" problem - it\'s one inherent to using batteries. Performance degrades over a period of time.\n\nImplementing the software patch should have informed users explicitly about the throttling.', '/s?', "Negative press? That's cause they get it almost every week honestly. Two weeks ago it was the foxcon thing, this week it's batteries. News outlets love to use Apple as a way to get more clicks and views. ", '*planned obsolescence ', "Give me a credible source and I'll happily listen. I don't have any idea of any moment where they said they weren't doing this.", "It happens because lithium-ion batteries degrade and then can't provide the power draw for the most demanding processes. If the phone tries to draw that much power and fails, it shuts down. This happens with computers, phones, tablets, laptops, pretty much anything that can't get the power it needs.", "Ah, but that would run contrary to the 'just works' ethos.  Providing you the choice means you can willfully enter a state where a negative experience is possible.\n\nLetting you choose would mean others unaware of your choice might see the phone fail at an inopportune time, which is a negative experience, unmitigated due to not understanding why it happened.  You might even come to be disgruntled at its issues, despite having made this choice knowingly - it doesn't always *just work*, and there's no getting that back.\n\nSilently slowing your phone hides it so those less aware never even notice, those more aware attribute it to os bloating and/or thermal aging/degradation, no one ever attributes this as their failure, and it benefits them in that more users opt for the more expensive phone replacement over battery.\n\nThe only thing I think they definitely should have done is actively ensure your aware its being intentionally slowed due to battery deficiencies, and not just once, but somewhat regularly - every few days/week or two.", "Yeah, i can't understand how people cant just accept Apple is the status of symbol and it is a privilege to pay them $1000 every year. ", "But this isn't at all what I'm seeing in this comments section. Pretty much everything hating on Apple here seems to get downvoted like crazy while the rest is upvoted.", 'It can actually go beyond that. And the reasoning for this has a lot to do (in my opinion) with how the two companies aproach pushing out idea\'s and products.\n\nIf you can name one original Idea from Apple - I would be surprised. Yet, Apple founds itself on \'innovation\' and excessively polished products. So when a small problem does inevitably come to light - it is obvious and clear as day.\n\nFor Google - it\'s endless iterations of idea\'s and search. Google\'s entire thing is iterating towards improvement, and when problems happen - which are inevitable, some people get mad, but overall - it\'s far more expected from google to see issues or problems.\n\nOntop of this, Google uses OEM\'s for most of it\'s product distribution, which puts a lot of the pressure of clean, clear implementation on them - not on Google.\n\nIf anything is going to bite Apple in the long run, it will be this. People will have issues with other devices - but it\'s expected. When you buy a device from Apple, you expect it to "just work" - so when it doesn\'t, it\'s extremely frustrating instead of just par-to course frustrating.', 'You wrote a lot, but I\'ll quickly respond.\n\nMost people are generally aware batteries degrade over time. \n\nThe problem is Apple didn\'t pair a powerful enough battery with the processors in the iPhone 6 and iPhone 6S.  The 6S has a 1715 mAh battery, and after losing only 20% capacity, it\'s no longer producing enough voltage to power the processor at full speed.  That right there is an engineering flaw (assuming it\'s not intentional).  The only "fix" is underclocking the processor to iPhone 3GS speeds.\n\nIn comparison, my Note II from 2012 has a 3100 mAh battery.  I\'ve replaced the battery twice so far.  My phone doesn\'t randomly shut down when it\'s time to replace it.  Why?  At 50%, it\'s still at 1550 mAh.  The only issue is shorter battery life.', "The batteries were not defective.  It was only /u/Loud_Stick's ability to use apostrophes correctly that was an issue.", 'Swelling is not just wear. ', 'I do understand the issue and I was being extremely sarcastic.', 'They\'ve already admitted in the past that a large group of their phones had faulty batteries.  Now they\'ve been caught basically "downgrading" older phones through updates.\n\nSorry but I just don\'t buy the answer that the batteries are normal.  I\'ve had about 5 androids now and none of them have had battery issues.\n\nAt the same time my wife, our friend had 2 iPhone\'s do this, my brother and my sister\'s iPhone\'s both had batteries that wouldn\'t stay charged normally.\n\nThey all had issues where the phone reaches 20-30% battery and shuts off.  That\'s 5 out of 5 iPhone\'s just out of the people closest to me, and it\'s always after updating to a new OS.\n\nEvery one I know with an android has never had these issues.\n\nSo what\'s more believable?  The battery being the problem under normal use or Apple which has been caught twice now manipulating their phones and also admitting to using bad batteries?', nan, "If that's all that is going on, I think thats certainly better than buying a new phone altogether. May be worth chatting to a tech at an Apple store", 'Sorry, you just constantly get notifications to upgrade while plugged in, over 50% battery, into perpetuity.', '$80 was probably close to breaking even for them. ', 'And I only hold that opinion because they knew what they were doing and kept it quiet. Now when they get exposed and are being sued in France, they roll out some b.s. fix because they got caught.\nBuild a good phone, with less obsolescence, and stop being an asshole of a company.', "False. I've kept android phones for 2+ years and had multiple updates on them. Still worked fine. \n\nI had an original Motorola Droid for over 4 years and it still ran great. I only traded in because work was offering updates. Every smart phone I've has been for at least 2 years and they still worked fine even after updates. \n\nAndroid doesn't cripple their legacy hardware like Apple does. Hence the lawsuit against Apple. ", "I have a Samsung. It's been update twice in the last year. Lolz. ", 'Software Engineer here - the kind of person who loved flashing custom ROMs back when I was on Android.\n\nGive me waterproofing please.', "Water resistance*, if it was full waterproofing then I'd take that, but if not replaceable parts all the way", 'OK, I just think the timing of the "apology" after being discovered was a little cynical (at best).', 'Yes, I concur', "In reality, Apple didn't add big enough batteries to run the processors at full speed once they drop to 80% capacity or below.  That is an engineering and manufacturing flaw.\n\nThe iPhone 6S has a 1715 mAh battery.  My Note II from 2012 has a 3100 mAh battery.  It generates enough voltage to power my phone even at 50% capacity.  See the difference?", "Apple cripples its older phones so you are encouraged to buy new ones. Anyone who doesn't think so is a fucking idiot.", 'Deciding to stop buying a product cause the company treats you like shit? That doesnt feel ignorant', 'Then there are stereotypes to learn from on both ends.', 'No I’ve never had a problem with my battery.', 'He replied to me with "ebay" then deleted it I\'m pretty sure. Cause you know.... the battery is $16.99 the cheapest place you can find and good luck finding anyone who knows what they\'re doing to crack open your phone for $13.00', "He's not lying. You know you can Google stuff? I buy 2 Anker batteries and an external charger for $20. Buy new batteries about once a year.", "Grocery stores have very low margins actually.  Distribution of low value perishable food is a lot more expensive.  But yeah if 1 bread company is averaging 3 or 4 times the margin of others, I'm sure a lot of consumers would pick the cheaper bread.  ", "The bread companies with 3 or 4x margins are selling a lot less bread than the cheaper brands.  But with phones, apple isn't the niche products you would expect when comparing their average margins to competitors.", 'Well that’s good news. Thanks!', "Paid $180 for a knock off Android from China (Huwei). I can literally run every app on it. Literally every app my iPhone friends can run.\n\nNow, I'm aware the specs on my knock off aren't the same as an iPhone. First of all, who cares if it can do the same things? The games I run on my multi-core PC don't even fully utilize all my core's processing power. Secondly, the last mainstream phone I had years back was an LG G2 and it actually was more powerful than the current iPhone at the time. And way cheaper.\n\nBut now I just get the knock offs because I can literally do all the same shit, but way cheaper. And I don't feel half as bad when I drop it in the toilet, run over it with a car, drop it from a rooftop, spill orange juice on it, allow a dog to use it as a toy, etc etc etc etc etc.\n\nPeople hemorrhaging money for shit they don't need is fine by me. I just enjoy making fun of them.\n\nOh yeah, and I have way more options on an Android than an iPhone. Oh, and I can repair an Android way easier than an iPhone. I know because I've had to do it at a few jobs. Apple likes making it as hard as they possibly can because...Apple.", "Paid $180 for a knock off Android from China (Huwei). I can literally run every app on it. Literally every app my iPhone friends can run.\n\nNow, I'm aware the specs on my knock off aren't the same as an iPhone. First of all, who cares if it can do the same things? The games I run on my multi-core PC don't even fully utilize all my core's processing power. Secondly, the last mainstream phone I had years back was an LG G2 and it actually was more powerful than the current iPhone at the time. And way cheaper.\n\nBut now I just get the knock offs because I can literally do all the same shit, but way cheaper. And I don't feel half as bad when I drop it in the toilet, run over it with a car, drop it from a rooftop, spill orange juice on it, allow a dog to use it as a toy, etc etc etc etc etc.\n\nPeople hemorrhaging money for shit they don't need is fine by me. I just enjoy making fun of them.\n\nOh yeah, and I have way more options on an Android than an iPhone. Oh, and I can repair an Android way easier than an iPhone. I know because I've had to do it at a few jobs. Apple likes making it as hard as they possibly can because...Apple.", "I'd rather poke fun at fanboys.", "Are you trying to say that you don't find Tim Cook sexually attractive? Are you a homophone?", ">Sounds like you're in the UK.  This sounds illegal.\n\n\n\nBeing in the UK is illegal!?!?  ", "...Apple store in the UK broke my battery around three months ago in this procedure and just gave me a new phone.\n\ntbf, they didn't warn me before hand.", 'Yes? ', 'Where else would you be paying with British currency? ', 'I did pay by CC! What do I tell them? \nIsn’t it the same as buying something for a certain price and then phoning to complain the product is on sale 2 months later? They’ll just tell me to fuck of won’t they?!', 'Just happened a couple weeks ago.\n\nGF needes a new screen due to a crack down the center. During the replacement they broke the phone. \n\nThey didn\'t say anything. We found out after we left and tried to charge it. Went back to the store and we got a "whoops you signed here saying it was possible to happen. Buy a new phone please".', "They did show me a picture  it had one small spot but like I said. I've never dropped the phone in  or water spilled water on it and for the phone being water resistant that should of never hapend. ", "> It's not like they're making it up. \n\nExcept when they are, remember this:\n\nhttps://venturebeat.com/2013/04/12/apple-to-pay-53m-over-iphone-warranty-lawsuit/\n\n>>The company relied on white indicator tapes inside of its devices that would turn pink or red upon water contact. But according to 3M, the manufacturer of that indicator tape, humidity can also cause it to turn pink. ", "All it takes is for one employee to offer it for the company to have to honour it, so it's possible.", 'I got a new MacBook Pro a year model newer than the one I broke out of warranty, because my regional Customer Relations dude took pity on me. I can find the emails if you don\'t believe me. \n\nI don\'t mean to be a jerk, but why do you find it hard to believe? Sure, if his anecdote was the only one, but it\'s hardly a secret that Apple can be *very* generous when it comes to their devices. Most people who\'ve invested in Apple have "won the lottery" so to speak at least once. ', 'I don\'t know the specifics about his case, but I\'ve had clients who\'ve bought over a dozen computers at a time, and I\'ve replaced their stuff out of warranty terms. When they spend a lot, it\'s easier to bend the rules to keep customers happy. \n\nI probably wouldn\'t do it for someone that bought a single computer and spilled water on it. But if they bought 20 and spilled water on 1, it would definitely be something I\'d consider.\n\nIf your customers are good to you, you should be good to your customers. You also can\'t let them walk all over you, so you do need to know when to say no, but replacing "clearly broke their own shit" isn\'t always "bending over backwards"\n\n', "Usage patterns can vary so widely, an hours number really doesn't say much unless it's extremely low or high (4 hours or 48 hours for instance).\n\nSome people use their screens more, while others have an unlucky app or two that drains them and they don't know about it. Others need to receive a bunch of notifications for their work or life, but that also isn't any guarantee. Some notifications don't require a lot of battery. I remember I needed Exchange for one of my jobs, and it was a treasure hunt finding an email app that had both an Exchange client and didn't kill the battery. If it supported all my other email services and was free, it's a godsend. But it would likely be cancelled or become paid within 6 months of me finding it. I can understand those $20 email apps now.", "Considering the pixel line batteries are similar in size to other phones... It really goes to show how much cycles are lost to the shitware layered on top of vanilla.  My pixel 2 xl lasts 3x my wife's edge s7 and I use mine far more.  Hers is already that clunky mess that non vanilla phones become after six months.", '5+ hours of screen on time. Many phones last a lot longer than that.', "It wouldn't have been eligible. ", "Some dude got charged recently for stealing a couple hundred phones in a single day at a festival. Definitely still a market for them, even if they're just being harvested for parts.", 'Imei can still be changed ', "Dunno. Maybe? The places I've tried didn't mention it if that's the case. I hope not, I have two family members that have recently done it with their old phones.", 'Ahhh I see... ㅅ_ㅅ', '/r/nostupidquestions time, how does the keyboard know when you want the letter to be smaller and stacked together like your first three as opposed to the fourth one (that seems to be the same thing as your first letter but not stacked together)? And how does it know in what orientation to stack them?', 'I always wanted to know that, quite cool', 'How does one type on a “typical” physical QWERTY keyboard? Type by phonetics or do they memorize which Latin letter corresponds to which Korean letter?', "Oh okay. So there are there characters that can't be easily typed? Thanks for answering!", '!RemindMe in 2 years', '*Alexa, reminds me to look up Alexa scandal in 2 years*', '!remindme 2 years', 'RemindMe! 5 seconds\nTesting how this works', 'Do you really?', 'Pretty sure that was the joke', 'You can’t replace a pixel battery from google, so...', 'The only true upgrade. ', "> What's up with this hostile attitude?\n\nYou mean Apple's extortion or my sarcasm?", "Lots of apple/Android fanboys, it's the way of the world. I'm fine using both OS's, day to day apple works better for me so they get my phone money but I have no hate toward Android ", "Well you can... You know, not buy Samsung.\n\nThe price for Android phones in the top end that aren't Samsung can be half of what Apple costs. That is the major difference. ", 'sounds like a crunchie breakfast cereal', "All things from different brands. What single brand has bending phones, touch disease, loss of connectivity to carrier, random shutting down at 40% battery, planned obsolescence, the occasional exploding phone, antennas that don't work if you hold the phone normally, less stable os and most vulnerable os, plus much much more?\n\nOh yeah. Apple. All of that is the same brand. Apple.", "I couldn't decide between forgetful or forgiving. It's probably crowds of both at this point but it certainly isn't something that's only constrained to Apple yet this is like their entire buisnesses model it seems at times. ", 'Exactly. They\'re response is always "what can you do? ¯\\\\_(ツ)_/¯ "', "Fucking over customers in the pursuit of higher and higher profit margins? Yeah it's bad.\n\nDo you think companies who cover up security breaches are good because they protect their stock price and shareholders?", 'So it should be easy to find examples...and yet...🤷🏼\u200d♂️', 'I suspect that if was actually common knowledge then those facts would be coming up with these articles. The lack of articles writing about prior dirty work seems to disagree with your hype.\n\nRegardless, an ad hominem attack is a poor substitute for a fact driven argument backed by sources.  ', 'Sigh, this conspiracy theory will never die. People have accused Apple of this for 10 years, and it wasn’t even true before the iOS 10 update. Aside from this one throttling case to fix a well-documented shutdown problem on one specific model of phone, Apple hasn’t done this. Like I said, if Apple slowed down your phone, you’d be angry and frustrated with it enough to switch to Android. \n\nIf your phone feels slower, it’s because you upgraded to a more RAM-devouring OS once or twice or more. ', 'Like you said, they might not upgrade as often. Time is money and money is time. While I don’t think they should be slowing down iPhones unnecessarily, especially if the battery is fine, I don’t think they have a responsibility to support old products in perpetuity to accommodate a small group of people. As someone who updates often for work purposes, I would much rather have a faster development and release cycle for the fastest and most up to date systems simply because it makes my life easier and that’s the only reason I support Apple products: make it easy for me to do my job. ', 'If a publicly traded company didn’t take advantage of a tax loophole that would be irresponsible. Both my individual and corporate taxes take advantage of all the legal tax strategies my accountant can find. Are you telling me you pay your full tax rate and don’t take advantage of favorable tax laws to reduce your taxable income? ', 'I know usb is possible I was just sayin they preferred making use of the disc drives which was dumb imo', 'It appears the installer for Windows works for airport expresses but not extreme ones. Link: https://support.apple.com/kb/DL1547\n\nFrom personal experience it is easier to set them up from a iOS device, switch it on select it under the wifi networks and then set it up from there. If you want to alter the configuration afterwards download the iOS app or use a computer with Airport Utility.', "I've never owned an iPhone and the phone I have now also has an easily accessible battery.  That being said, you're in a thread about iPhone replacement batteries. This thread is specifically about the attempt to reconcile scummy business practices by a company that *does not make your phone*.\n\nThere's plenty of room for valid input, but taking about how this isn't your problem ain't it.", "I've seen updates fuck up phones but it's not the usual. Also you'll run into other issues not updating possibly. Kinda luck either way. I'd just back up and update. If it's fucked you've got a backup at least. ", "> a permanent notification on my home screen\n\nScreenshot please, because I've never seen that.", 'To be honest that would be better for it to still be unknown than all the hysteria and misinformation of the last few weeks.', 'There are two things in this world I can’t stand..1.Intolerance for other people’s culture \n2.The Dutch ', "Everyone would just select faster and then get pissy when the phone shut off because the processor had access to too much voltage and there would be some big brouhaha about Apple phone shutting off with 40% battery and why would this happen to me shouldn't apple be making sure that their phones stay on and stable for users?", "In a perfect world, sure. But that add more complexity to iOS, requires additional testing, and might not even be something users want or understand. And then there's a trade-off between putting resources into that verses some other feature. ", "> but it's not the same as them slowing down devices currently in circulation.\n\nThat's not the quote though from Apple. The quote is 'First and foremost, we have never — and would never — do anything to intentionally shorten the life of any Apple product'. ", '"You can no longer use this device that is still perfectly fine, because we want you to purchase the new one".\n\nHow\'s that not intentionally shortening the life of a product? ', '> there wasn’t really any similar products available. \n\nLolwut\n\nThere were dozens of windows and linux tablets far more powerful than the ipad long before the ipad came out.', "There were already android tablets out with cameras and the whole 9? You can't act like the iPad was the first tablet...it came into an already booming market but it sold like hotcakes because well, its apple. Also a lot of older people were getting more into technology and iOS is more palatable than some android platforms. I really believe people 50+ was a HUGE new market  and probably one of the biggest market shares for apple's mobile products \n\nI am not actually an apple hater. I buy mac computers, i am typing on one right now. But i have never been a fan of their mobile products or how they market them. I owned one iPhone and got rid of that as soon as the was feasible and would never own one again. Obviously, some people prefer them for different reasons but iPhones are a generation behind in tech usually, and are too constricting for my needs. Same goes with iPads, and there are just too many options to settle for an iPad. My daughter uses an iPad but thats because on the simplistic interface but once she's older i would not buy another iPad to replace it.", "If you knew anything about Steve jobs you'd know that's bullshit. Remember his first build with was and the lengthy port debate they had? He would never omit a feature like a camera, something that is a very basic feature.\n\n/S", 'Freedom of choice is always preferable and  rational. Using guns or beer for example they have deadly risks but I know the risks and still have a choice to use them. Nobody is going to blame a company for educated decisions.', "Google Pixel user here. You are unfortunately quite correct. Replaceable batteries are no longer a thing, and that sucks.\n\nI wonder if the NSA had the phone makers do that so that's it's harder to stop a phone from spying on you…", "Just the solution of clocking your processor down to iPhone 3GS speeds is what's unique.", 'Maybe so but regardless of the reason Apple slowed down phones that have only been used for one or two years. I’m no expert but logically I know this is a NEW problem and it needs analysis. It’s never been a problem before to my knowledge and nobody got upset. I’m considering everything to avoid drama. It seems emotionally charged without full consideration for many unfortunately.', "[This article explains the issue fully.](https://9to5mac.com/2017/12/10/iphone-6s-slow-down-battery-fix/)\n\n\nPeople are using this as justification for years of suspicions that Apple was slowing down older phones to encourage sales of newer devices. There is zero proof that this is the case.\n\nedit: I should also add that the throttling completely stops when the battery is replaced, which completely blows everyone's suspicions out of the water.", 'They not only got caught but they are being sued. This move today is just to help them during the legal battle by showing they took action', 'They did say in their release notes that they updated power management to make the battery last longer and prevent shutdowns.', 'Wouldn’t you be more likely to keep an old phone if it was just slow rather than shutting down with 30% battery left? ', "You have a better suggestion on how to ensure that a degraded battery is able to meet the surge of electrical demand from high CPU usage?\n\nYou can't have everything.", 'Even if you keep all your apps and OS at the same version and the software you are running on the hardware uses the same amount of CPU as it did 1,2,3... years ago.\n\nYour battery will degrade and will not perform the same.', "No one makes Americans consume. Marketing can't make people zombies, people are responsible for their actions, including smartphone purchases. Craving consumption is a symptom of how easy it is to do almost nothing and get by in the US. \n\nIn my experience, only the most easily influenced and least informed shill against the system that has rocketed this planet forward so successfully that even the most useless humans can sit at home complaining about capitalism on their iPhone over WiFi with zero talent or drive and still live a safe, comfortable, easy life.", "My iPhone 6 lasts about an hour or two, so it's not hard to know what's wrong, even without seeing that message. Not saying that's the case for everyone though.", "That causes the phone to crash when the processor needs a certain voltage to run at full speed and the battery can't deliver it.  So instead of crashing the phone, they detect what the battery can deliver and cap how fast the phone can go to stay under that limit.  It's not some evil conspiracy here -- they stopped phones from crashing.  Last I checked, that's a feature.   ", 'Say I want a particular feature, but no one sells it (and I still need a phone). Then what?', 'Woah "you love in your mom\'s basement" so innovative, how did you come up with that?!?!', 'How did Samsung respond?', 'Samsung is not the only brand for Android', "Imagine if instead of the battery exploding, the defect was the phone kept rebooting randomly for no apparent reason once the battery was at 80% capacity or less, and Samsung, in collusion with the carriers, pushed out an update which underclocked the processor to Galaxy S2 speeds as a countermeasure without notifying their customers.  \n\nYou're in that thread.", "Yea but they also didn't do it that in purpose", 'I’ve yet to see anyone demanding free phones, and the lynching part is trying to make people who are upset seem unreasonable.', 'Agreed. Although I might try waiting until a later month of the year if the battery seems okay right now. But definitely get some replacement done this year. $29 is close to a no-brainer.', 'Why not wait for the software update to see if the phone is even being affected? And if not, wait until it is affecting it or December 2018. Whichever comes later. This gives you the most longevity. ', "If you plan to keep it why not wait until it's closer until the end of the year?", "Think about literally any product. It has a set limited warranty on it from the manufacturer, after that, that guarantee is not around, so repairs/replacements, etc. cost money. That's how every product works.\n\nIf something was in warranty, and cost money, then yea that wouldn't make any sense.", 'Do you have a better source for the actual price of their cost? Better than the one I provided. ', 'no, it just covers all the bases for them', 'so does this Mac app still work somehow?', 'What do you mean? There are loads of apps on android that do this. Most popular at the moment being Accubattery. ', "Accubattery does that pretty well on Android, it's a free app too. ", "Don't most phones have a dial-code to bring up the maintenance menu?", '> Just get ~~an Android~~ phone and be done with it.\n\nYou mean Google phone, because every other brand of Android phone comes with its own set of headaches.', 'My Galaxy S4 is having similar problems. Not really but my camera lens is cracked and that bums me out', "I second this. \nI'm an adult with ADHD and autism, as well as depression. There's no other way to put it but that it kinda makes me dumb as shit. \n\nI dread the day my iPhone gives in because I've already decided not to buy into their crap anymore, but my android tablet is a nightmare - mainly of course because of my behaviour as a user. However apple doesn't let you mess with their products to the extent where it might ruin its performance (only apple is allowed to do that lol) and the features they do let you control are at least to me much easier to understand. ", "Yes, it's an engineering and manufacturing defect.  \n\nApple put a battery with only a 1715 mAh capacity in the iPhone 6S.  It does not produce enough voltage to provide stable power to the processor once the battery degrades to 80% or less.\n\nIn comparison, my Note II from 2012 has a 3100 mAh battery and provides enough voltage to power my phone even at 50% capacity.  There's no need for Android to underclock my processor when the battery degrades naturally.", "A 3-year-old battery doesn't have enough voltage to safely power the SOC. Seems pretty much like a planned obsolescence for me.\n\n> Laptops, phones, portable speakers, EVs ... they all suffer from the exact same problem.\n\nAnd to this day, you never heard about a Macbook throttle the CPU because of battery degradation.\n", 'Yeah I\'ve seen the "upgrade now" popups on someone else\'s phone, it\'s definitely not once a week, more like once every couple of hours.', "You should probably go into business selling phones with batteries that don't degrade with use, I'd buy one.", "That just isn't true, they started blocking apps from seeing the state of the battery, around the time they implemented this. We aren't just talking about not informing the average user, they informed no one they did this, and they hid it from the changelog as well. \n\nStability issue is also heavily exaggerated, cause all idevices have been running without this slowdown update for 9 years. They can make the change for stability reasons, but when you intentionally hide the fact that you did it from everyone, then it probably isn't for noble reasons.", "V30 doesn't have a user replaceable battery.", "Maybe so, but you can't possibly defend the theory that to be waterproof, the battery cannot be replaceable. ", "Doesn't have to be a 1:1 comparison to drive home the point.", "That completely depends on the size of your power bank ...\n\nIf you want a 20.000mAh one then yeah, it'll be bulky. If you opt for a 5.000mAh it definitely isn't.\n\nIt also charges other things than your own personal phone, which is extremely handy to yourself (and your family) & helpful to others.", "And in 99% of other cases you are close to an outlet most of the day, or you're in a vehicle, or you have a powerbank in a bag.\n\nAnother handy thing is that you can charge other things than just your phone. Speakers, laptops, other peoples devices ... all works.", "Yeah, I've never had an issue with carrying a power bank in my backpack, laptop bag, or in my pocket.\n\nIt's not like I need to use the power bank 10x a day ... I live in the 21st century, I'm usually near an outlet or a laptop to charge from. In the cases I don't (festivals, camping etc) power banks are absolutely perfect.\n\nThe power bank also charges my speaker, other peoples phone, and every other gadget you might have - your spare battery does not.", "No, but there's no logical reason to swap around the internal batteries if all you need is power.\n\nWhy on earth bother with a 1.500mAh battery, when you can get a 10.000mAh one for the same price? It's also easier to plug in a USB than to deal with opening it etc etc... and the internal battery can't charge other devices either.", "Yes it did. It had a rubber flap that covered the port, which is how it was waterproof. This design is equally as poor as it's battery waterproofing, which is entirely relatable. Poor design is poor design.", "I would never take my phone into the shower, even if it was waterproof, not just water resistant. Y'all motherfuckers are crazy. ", "What in the fuck are y'all doing in the shower that you need a phone? Wash and GTFO! ", '> Am I just really good at not getting my phone wet?\n\nApparently. Steam will destroy electronics too.', "Ok your first point is not relevant. Water resistance doesn't help with drops, i never said it did, and neither does a removable battery. But because you asked, i just have a cheap case on my phone, ive never broken a phone in my life or even shattered a screen.\n\nAnd this thread exists because you were complaining about battery degradation and I interjected to say that i prefer water resistance to an easier time doing 1 repair every 2 years. The only other advantage a removable battery gives is the ability to carry an extra battery around and swap out, which battery banks have fixed along with quick charging meaning instead of swapping batteries you can just charge your phone for 30 minutes or less and get another few hours.", "considering for the s7 (the phone i own) samsung said taking it in the shower was ok in their ads, i'm inclined to think taking it in the shower is fine haha. Ive also been doing it for a year with no issues.", "Yes. Yes it is. Look it up. \nThe IPX7 rating us water resistant, which is above splashing protection, water jets and powerful water jets. So yea, it's rated for use in the shower. Don't make shit up, liar.\n\nSource: [IP Code](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/IP_Code) ", "I'm VERY near sighted. If its not within like 30 cm or less from my face things start to get blurry fast. However i generally hold my phone pretty close when im looking at it. If you are far sighted this can be a problem though.", "Solutions only present new problems. In this case, you're adding bulk with the (expensive) water proof case. ", "I want to increase the thickness of my phone by 100%, plus add a ton of weight, just so that I don't have to spend 20 mins, every 2 years, to replace a battery?\n\nHow the hell is that logical?", 'Isn’t that what most phone manufacturers charge for their batteries?', "Bingo, should really have been submodels.  Same phone, here's water resistant, but to get it, you lose the battery access, here's the removable back for battery access, but to get it, you lose water resistance, choose.\n\nWould have cost them a little more on inventory, given that they need actual casings for the batteries, so the space needs to be a bit different, etc, snowballs outwards on part differences, and the phone would be a bit larger, owing to larger batter for same capacity, due to casing on battery.\n\nThey'd pass that cost on to the consumer anyways, and they'd not have to concern themselves with lost customers over not having either feature.", '> The alternative is just order a replacement battery online and install it myself in 1 minute with a removable back.\n\nYou can do this anyway. All you need is a screwdriver.', "[Here you go](https://www.ifixit.com/Store/iPhone/iPhone-6-Replacement-Battery/IF268-002-4) an entire replacement kit for the iphone 6 for $25.\n\nIt's always been the case you can DIY it much cheaper while still getting a high quality kit.", 'Is it an OEM battery or is it just claiming to work? \n\nLike with digital cameras, you buy the name brand battery. If not your off brand battery works great, for 100/200 charges, then it stops holding as much of a charge. \n\nIf I have to get a replacement battery for my replacement battery every 4-6 months, I might as well get the new OEM battery every two years.', 'Yep. Those are all very good points. Looks like I was indeed missing several somethings. ', "Something something got till it's gone.", 'The guy literally said iPhones aren’t waterproof, but they are... lol\n\nUnless he was being pedantic on “water resistant” vs “waterproof” which applies to all phones (not just iPhones).', 'I was thinking non hybrid vs hybrid. ', 'I’m technically a little 1m charging cable apologist', 'I got my Belkin cable at a Flying J.  Guess truck stops are ok...', 'No - go to a store (I know Costco is a good example) and look at Apple vs Android branded chargers. Apple branded chargers will be much more expensive ($35 vs $15 for Android) even though they are basically the same chargers built by the same third-party company. Apple charges a huge fee to advertise anything as compatible with Apple, which is why chargers are so expensive.', 'It is important to understand the market you are talking about. Coke has a monopoly on coke products, but it is very easy to substitute Pepsi for coke, maybe even Sprite, so "coke products" isn\'t their market, colas, sodas, or even soft drinks would be. When looking at iPhone chargers, you can\'t just use an Android charger because it\'s cheaper, so iPhone chargers is the right market segment to look at.  In that market they have a monopoly or at least close to it (true monopolies are rare).', "Frameworks, uncompressed assets, OS, background processes... it's not as simple as a compressed video file.", 'Doesn’t matter. What you described is a RAM limitation and has absolutely nothing to do with the CPU being throttled. The cause to that problem is clear. ', 'I had an iPhone 6 for 2.5 years. It ran infinitely better than the HTC One M8 I returned for it. ', "It has been known for a good while that this was happening. Apple just hasn't admitted it until these recent postings. ", 'Not sure why you are down voted. Do people truly think Apple wouldn\'t be so underhanded? "Not Steve Jobs? He wouldn\'t!"Steve would cheat his own friends and family, and in fact did do those things. Why do folks think he and the company he built wouldn\'t do the same? ', 'It has the status bar, but the notch for the face ID and front camera makes it smaller so certain information is omitted. Swiping down to open the control center gives you all the information though.\n\n', "Things like this are why I wish jailbreaking was a little more popular, like it used to be. I understand the downsides to it, this community is *somewhat* sometimes toxic, and I don't expect Apple to lessen their security of the devices.\n\nBut it's pretty cool to notice a small thing you don't like with an update and being able to switch it to something you prefer. Is a little harder to do/find tweaks when the community is dying (understandably).", 'CoconutBattery on Mac uses the same APIs that the Genius Diagnostics use (that’s how it works) and accurately tells you the charge cycles, capacity (in mA), and more. It works for the Mac and any connected iOS devices. \n\nYou’re right in that there aren’t accurate apps on the iOS App Store. ', 'Who would I contact about this?', 'I would take a repair over contributing further to the worlds massive electronics churn most days.', "> Most people don't treat their phone batteries very well, charging all through the night\n\nThis is completely wrong. There's circuitry in the phone (and battery itself) that will stop charging when it's full and just power the phone from the charger. Exceptions here are high power (gaming) laptops that need more power than the charger can provide.\n\nAnker even says so:\n>In terms of the gradual erosion of battery life, what must be understood is that phone batteries are constantly in a state of decay. Sleeping with a phone charging overnight will make no noticeable difference in the process.", 'If its the end of the day, wtf am i supposed to do? Set an alarm to wake me up to unplug my phone at 80% charge?\n\nEDIT: Maybe batteries should have headspace built in and report 100% charge at 80% and use the remaining 20% capacity for wear balancing for better battery longevity? \n\nBut then wed be right back here with "ermahgerd theyre ripping us off, our batteries could hold 20% more!"...', "> Most people don't treat their phone batteries very well, charging all through the night, letting their batteries discharge to a very low level etc.\n\nWhy do we insist on perpetuating this “you’re doing it wrong” BS when it comes to leaving a phone or other devices on their charger?\n\nLeaving your phone plugged in 24/7 is not “wrong” behavior, nor should it be considered as treating your battery badly... It should not decrease the life of the battery, or cause any other issue.  If it does, then the PM system of that device should be considered *broken*.\n\nThere is nothing in Apple’s docs that say that charging to 100%, or leaving it in the charger, will decrease the lifespan of the battery.\n\nThe same is true for laptops.  Leaving them on the charger is not bad behavior and does not *cause* swelling or decreased battery life.  Poor power management may cause these things, but it is not because the owner did something wrong by leaving it on the charger.", "Underclocking the phone to disguise random shut down issues without telling you (and making the latest model phone appear to be amazingly fast, and, therefore, more attractive, as an added bonus) is what's completely dishonest.\n\nDon't get it twisted.", 'And at least you knew it was the battery and had the option to either replace it or upgrade to a new device.', "Something can be efficient, but still require more power to run.\n\nEfficiency is deceptive. It's relative. \n", "Sure, but this argument taken to its logical conclusion would be that you would see **no** performance drop if you installed win 10 on an 11 year old machine. That's not true. \n\nAnd the there's the apps. Apps written for Vista might need an upgrade to run on  win 10. And those apps might make certain assumptions about the underlying hardware. Assumptions that benefit the majority of modern users but penalize those on old hardware.", 'Apps also do more. The OS also does more.  It\'s like buying a sequel to a game and expecting it to run with the same performance as its predecessor on the same PC because "it should be more efficient".', "So only innovative features take up computing resources?\n\nDoesn't matter what you believe. The *fact* is software has a tendency to get more demanding over time as the majority of hardware gets more powerful. And you don't have to upgrade.", "That's an insane move too!  What the hell were they thinking?!", 'Yeah, I thought so.  Thanks for the confirmation.  :)', '> the system starts gimping the performance of the phone well before the battery message appears.\n\nThis. Saw this exact thing on an iPhone 6+. System was running slow. No notifications. 3rd party tool showed battery at 50% life. Replaced it and performance is back.', 'Lol it’s hilarious to me that so many people think this was planned obsolescence. It clearly wasn’t planned obsolescence. I’ve never used an Apple product in my life, but they are just like any other tech company that tries to reduce cost. It was just a cheap solution to a problem. It is a shitty band-aid solution without addressing the real problem, and that is they either used the wrong batteries for the task, their fuel gauges aren’t correctly tracking the health of the battery, or their chargers are charging with a curve that’s damaging to the chemistry of the battery that the golden image of the fuel gauge doesn’t expect. So they throttle performance to increase overall usability of the device.\n\nWorking in this industry, I guarantee you that not a single person said “how can we force them to upgrade to a new device?”, but instead said “how can we prolong the life of the devices, the cheapest way possible?”\n\nThe real solution would be to engineer a different battery that can deal with it, reflashing fuel gauges with correct golden images, which may require sending the phone in, or respinning the boards to allow for the proper chargers or fuel gauges for the job. This would be extremely expensive for them, and would require a recall, so they did the best they could with software, which is not a good solution.\n\nTheir goal is to have an iPhone last as long as possible. If your phone started shutting off, you’d probably just upgrade to the newer model because it was about that time.', "If I smash your windows then offer to fit new ones for a discounted price I'm not a nice guy.", "Them not trying to get people to spend the money would've meant they told everyone that their phone would slow down without a replacement battery, in the first place. \n\nA service I would have gladly given $80 for. Instead they were caught not informing their consumers, in hopes of the obscene number of upgrades they sold. Which led to this $29 replacement. \n\nWhich feels scummy, because it's yet another cost they're implementing for their lie of omission. When Toyota had a recall they did it for free, and paid for the vehicle rental for the 1 or 2 days. \n\nIf Apple is truly sorry, they should replace the batteries for free. Bite the bullet and keep most all of their customers. But here's one they definitely lost.. ", 'Some of you apple fans are just weird ', "hahahaha, hahahahahahaha, ha!  Safety or equality, it's so easy to control you people.\n\nApple intentionally slowed their phones to get people to upgrade.  Those same people are now ecstatic that Apple will sell them a cheaper battery for the phone that Apple fucked them over with.  This is simply amazing.", "Why wouldn't you choose option 3, 4, or 5, though?\n\n\n1. Phone performs well but shuts off randomly at ~20-50% charge\n\n1. Phone is slower, but it lasts until 0% all the time\n \n1. Phone performs just as it did when purchased with a slightly shorter battery life.\n\n1. Phone is replaced because a manufacturing defect causes it to randomly shut down if the battery capacity is lower than 80%.\n\n1. Phone performs better than it did after purchase thanks to replacement battery and software upgrade.\n\nI suppose Apple doesn't want to give you the choices that would prevent you from immediately upgrading to the latest iPhone.  \n\n[Thanks, Mom!](https://imgur.com/a/LNyOV)", 'If anything they should have less overhead. They manufacture the batteries themselves in large quantities, I have to buy them from a middle man, about 20 at a time. It wouldnt surprise me if it costs them less than $5 per battery. and theyre charging $29 for a replacement. If they are doing mail ins, I could see that raising their costs, but not by that much.', 'Just depends on the shop. Our shop has 120 day warranty, we cover all damages done during all repairs. We are not that exceptional.', 'There\'s a simple way to understand his position: what was it that Apple just apologised over and is the topic of this thread? That\'s what he\'s talking about.\n\nEdit: Man, I wish I had customers that were like Apple\'s customers. Apple slows down phones for years, it gets discovered, Apple apologises, changes their policies and they still shut their ears and go, "Apple didn\'t do nuthin\', I don\'t know what you\'re talking about, lalalala".', 'I want to know too.\n\nI believe Geniuses were not empowered to explain throttling to complaining customers until the expose.  And I am not sure if I dreamed it or not, but I thought I did see a news story in the last ~15 days about Apple denying throttling.', 'Which phones? Never have it happend even in 3 year old Moto G. Battery would last shorter time, but still would go from 100 to 0, and then phone would turn off.', "I know. I've changed out 3 batteries on various iPhones through the years.  It's not difficult, but it's also not something that the average consumer would want to do. ", 'If it\'s a GoPro, the "waterproof" feature is a 1/8 inch thick polycarbonate shell with rubber gaskets lining it.  I\'m not sure people are willing to use something like that on their phones.', 'Its an older Pentax waterproof digital. ', "You continue to think that somehow I owe you something. Do you want me to look into it so you don't have to? Then ask nicely. Or else do it yourself. Or else just continue on working from what you already know.\n\nIt's your responsibly to educate yourself. If you want someone else to do it for you then you should do it the way one does when one is asking another for a favor.", 'Well, if i had the choice between a slow phone and a phone that keeps shutting down my apps, i would probably choose the slow phone. Either way, i would buy a new phone when i got the chance', 'You really think adding code to prevent phones from suddenly turning off, and making the phones last longer "increased sales"?', "> What are you talking about? Google phones have also been known to suffer from this problem.\n\nEngineering is hard. Cell phones are at the edge of our manufacturing capabilities, and they keep pushing things like thinness at the expense of long-term reliability. Apple is not the only company to suffer from manufacturing or engineering failures, and I did not suggest that they are.\n\n> That's why they were **shelling out free pixels** for a month because people's phones were shutting down and they took their time acknlowledging it.\n\nNote the different response. Failures happen. If Apple had responded similarly, I'd be saying they're doing the right thing. When they sweep it under the rug with a performance-crippling software patch instead of acknowledging it and making it right, I'm going to call them out on it. What people need to understand is that these risks are *well understood* by the engineers, and if those risks don't pan out, *it's still the company's fault* and they should make it right.\n\nI think *all* manufacturers should put more focus on long-term viability and life cycle engineering. It's not beyond us to engineer a phone that can last for 10 years of normal use without failing, but it comes with tradeoffs nobody is accepting, and the result is fiascoes like these.", 'Samsung literally had exploding phones last year. Yet Reddit hates Apple more haha', 'All my old phones hold less charge and drain faster, but none of them shutdown unexpectedly because of battery.\n\nYet Apple is saying theirs does?  Seems odd.', "Or, you know... There are people who prefer Apple products over Microsoft/Android, and don't mind paying the premium for it.\n\nI prefer to do any dev/productivity work on MacOS. I like the fact that my phone is tightly integrated with my main work station. It's nothing about status, and just that Apple *makes good products*", 'Why? Do you throw your 1 year old iPhone in the bin every year?', 'I don’t think anyone is debating that the battery is too small. Apple’s battery capacities have always been lower than the field. I agree they need larger capacity batteries and as an iPhone owner have been hoping for years they get on that train. But post-production, throttling the CPU is the best possible solution. ', 'Then my mistake ', "I've considered it for mine, but I'd rather have a phone that needs charging twice a day than a cool Apple-themed coaster.", 'I really can’t have a good conversation if you literally can’t read and comprehend, then throwing an “opinion” based on personal biased assumption with no factual base. ', "Go use an android phone running gingerbread. A ton of apps won't work. Lots of google apps don't work on old versions of android.", 'oh yeah? what were the updates?', 'Fair enough.', '> In reality...\n\nA claim of "reality" is going to need a source, particularly after I have provided one for you.\n\n', 'You sound like a troll ', 'not to mention, opening an s6 requires heating the phone, something every average joe is willing to do cheap ', "We're talking about the companies that make the core product. i.e., the bread manufacturer is similar to Apple, the Grocery Store would be closer to a Best Buy or other Reseller of Apple products... (and before you might go there, the flour producers are the analogy to the component suppliers to Apple)\n\nGross Profit Margins:\nAAPL : 37.91% last quarter\nBMBOY (Bread Company BIMBO) : 52.99% last quarter\n\nBIMBO being the makers of Wonder Bread... they have MUCH greater markups than Apple, yet you guys get up in arms over nothing", 'Yeah the iPhone hands down wins in that department. Its measly 2 core 1.6 GHz processor with 2 GB of RAM running iOS performs much better than any Android phone running on a 2.3 GHz Octocore with 8 GB of RAM. Apple has the advantage in that they only have to worry about their own hardware, and not being compatible with virtually every piece of hardware out there.', 'Oh man I had an LG G2. I went through 7 replacements since the phone was garbage (touch screen would stop working, call quality was so bad, people could rarely hear what I was saying, and I could rarely hear them, and GPS would take 3 minutes to lock on and then tell me I was 500m away from where I was), and it always performed worse than the iPhone I had before it. The specs say they’re more powerful, but the user experience says otherwise. I enjoy my camera app opening instantly, and ready to take pictures, unlike the G2 which would often take up to 10 seconds to be ready, and by the time that’s done, what I’ve wanted to take a picture of is gone. I like being able to scroll without it feeling like my eyes are having a seizure, and having everything load practically instantly. Even powerful android phones can’t seem to do it.\n\nI’ve repaired a few iPhones for friends, and the longest any repair took was 10 minutes, they’re pretty easy to do with the right tools (all of which I picked up in a hardware store).\n\nI know people who have bought knockoff android phones and end up either going back to iPhone, or to higher end android phones, because the knockoffs tend to work only 80-90% of the time, which is way too inconsistent for a phone.', 'Report to room 101 immediately citizen', 'Brexit means brexit, afterall!', 'Yes, they have worked out that legally we are all EU citizens and will have to leave when brexit happens.', 'It is if you are North Korean. ', 'Statistically, for most people it is. ', 'It’s kind of a different issue to a product going on sale. The issue with the batteries draining much more quickly over time existed before you had ours replaced, and yours certainly had the issue when you had it replaced.\n\nIt depends on their policy on it, but to my mind they should be doing something for you.', 'Protection against the thing you just bought going on sale is exactly what price protection is. Depends on what card you used: https://www.nerdwallet.com/blog/credit-card-benefits/purchase-protection-refund-price-drop/', "It's a perk on some premium cards. If a product goes on sale after you buy it, they'll refund the difference. Call and ask if your card includes a price protection perk.\n\nhttps://www.nerdwallet.com/blog/credit-card-benefits/purchase-protection-refund-price-drop/", 'Some credit cards have price protection.', 'Was it an Apple store or a random screen kiosk? ', "No. I worked at Denny's.", 'From the OP\'s other response it does sound like this was an over zealous Apple store technician. It sucks but the advice I gave is to call AppleCare and arrange for the device to be sent to one of the repair centres as they\'re just better at the job than store employees are.\n\n\nTo play devil\'s advocate for a moment though, this sentence "If he hasn\'t put it in water then he hasn\'t." just doesn\'t matter when you\'re dealing with millions of customers. People will say anything to avoid having to pay for damage they caused and employees *have* to be vigilant, but yeah this case sounds like a bad call by an employee for sure. I worked tier 2 AppleCare support for a few years and you wouldn\'t believe the shit people try to convince you of.', "That sucks. It sounds like you might have been screwed by an over zealous Apple store monkey.\n\nJust to give you a little insight into how Apple handles water damage to their devices - iPhones have internal water damage sensors at key points inside the device (basically at points where water can get into the internals). They have some criteria that I've forgotten, but it's something like 2 of these need to be triggered for water damage to be declared or something along those lines. This doesn't apply to devices that have visible water damage internally.\n\n\nTechnicians (and I use that term loosely when referring to Apple store guys) can definitely be wrong, so it's always worth calling AppleCare and pleading your case to them if you disagree. You might get the odd asshole who will happily refuse to even help, but there are lots of agents there who are happy to have you send the phone into an Apple repair centre to make another assessment.\n\n\nI realise it's probably too late for anything now, but just so you know for future reference - always call AppleCare if you're unhappy with the store's determination (and pray you get the Irish call centre).", "> APRIL 12, 2013\n\n> The settlement applies to owners of Apple’s first iPhone up to its 3GS model, as well as the second and third-gen iPod Touch.\n\n\nThat's really old news, unless you've got anything newer that suggests they're currently doing it? FYI I really dislike Apple, but I dislike misinformation even more.", 'This isn\'t true, especially if you don\'t get it in writing. Apple probably doesn\'t want to be seen as lying though, and they probably will often honor it anyways.\n\nWhat do you think would happen if employee said, "Yeah, we\'ll give you 20 iphones to replace your broken ipad"?\n\nThey will most likely not honor that.\n\n"That\'s a dumb example, no one would do that, it\'s unreasonable"\n\nBut the line is in a much more reasonable place. \n\nIf they say they\'ll replace it without asking why it\'s broken and find water damage afterwards, that could stand to reason for not replacing it anymore.', "I thought my dads blackberry warrantee was a joke when they upcharged him most of the cost of the new phone due to 'age' when he ran his phone over.  DAD YOU ALREADY PAID FOR THE DAMN WARRANTY HOW DO YOU NOT SEE YOU'RE GETTING RIPPED OFF.\n\nI see things still haven't changed with the new bigdog in phones.", 'By the time your battery is old enough to need replacement your warranty is probably expired anyways lol', 'It knows the rules of writing in Korean, so if I\'m trying to write something that doesn\'t make sense, it\'ll just put the last character into a square of its own, or it\'ll guess I meant something that does make sense\n\nFor example, 시ㅣ is like "sii", but it doesn\'t make sense. If you want to put "si-yi" then it would be 시이  \nIf I try to put 다ㅏ (daa, also one that doesn\'t make sense), it\'ll first think I tried to put 댜 (dya) because entering ㅏ twice makes ㅑ in the keyboard\n\nNow, for typing 신사동, after 신사, when you put the ㄷ, it\'ll first guess you want to say 신삳. After adding ㅗ it\'ll understand you meant 신사도 because "신삳ㅗ" doesn\'t make sense, and it\'ll correct itself\n\nㅏ, ㅣ, ㅑ, ㅗ, they\'re all vowels and if you want to put them without a consonant you need to add an ㅇ in Korean (Hangul)  \nPS. Each square in Hangul, called a Jamo, is also a syllable', 'Well, you type ㅅ and then ㅣ, that makes 시 if you just stop there. If I go on to type ㄴ, however, it will come out as 신. Let’s say I want to type 시나 though..how does it know the ㄴ is the start of the next character and not at the bottom of the first? Well, that’s easy - because it’s simply impossible for ㅏ to be at the “start” of a character. Thus, from the perspective of me typing on the keyboard, typing ㅅ and then ㅣ and then ㄴ in quick succession gives me 신, but as soon as I type that ㅏ the ㄴ shifts over because there is simply no way to type something as 신ㅏ(it must be 시나)', 'The Korean language is not only beautiful, but also quite simple to learn compared to other popular asian languages like Japanese or Mandarin. A couple of hours is all it really takes to be able to read it phonetically to a decent degree. Come visit /r/korean sometime, hangul (한글) is fun to learn :)', 'Keys have foreign characters printed on them alongside Latin ones.', 'Alexa, remind me in 2 years', 'Other Android phones, you can just open the back and swap a battery in when your other one dies. Having choices is neat. ', 'As someone who works on phones, yeah you can. \n\nIs it more of a pain in the ass than iPhones? Yes.\n\nWould I rather not risk breaking the screen just to remove a battery? Of course.\n\nBut it can be done.', "It's buried a little deeper than most other 'non-replaceable' batteries, but [I wouldn't say that you *can't* replace it...](https://www.ifixit.com/Guide/Google+Pixel+Battery+Replacement/89128)", "The sarcasm. \n\nNobody is locked in to Apple. Nobody is being forced. He could have replaced the battery himself had he desired, or paid somebody else to do it. \n\nIf you don't like someone's business practices, don't do business with them. Some people like what Apple makes and don't mind paying the premium. That's their prerogative. ", "Exactly. It still baffles me that there's such derisive language when talking about *mobile phones.* As you said, day to day, Apple fulfills my needs. But I have no hostility towards anyone who disagrees with me. But I *am* irritated toward the people who lambast others for disagreeing with *them.* So irritating. ", "While I mostly agree, security is one very important aspect of old phones. I'd want continuous security patches at least.", "They definitely aren't supposed to lol. Pretty sure you can just walk into an apple store and pay for a battery replacement. ", 'I don’t think it’s either one, frankly. Inertia is a hell of a drug. Best thing Apple ever did for Apple was create reliance on their infrastructure (iCloud, Photostream, iTunes Match, etc.). I’ve considered switching a number of times, but then I think about the multi-weekend project it would be and plunk down my $$ for a new one. Rinse, repeat. ', 'www.google.com', '> I suspect that if was actually common knowledge then those facts would be coming up with these articles.\n\nI suspect that you\'re trying to use the limited scope of this one article to justify your ignorance/denial of Apple\'s long standing policies of amassing exorbitant amounts of wealth using every trick in the book as documented for decades now.\n\nIt would take you seconds to find any one of hundreds of examples over the years.  From Jobs pulling advertising from magazines/websites that report anything critical of Apple or its products, to their use of outdated parts wrapped up in premium cases, to numerous battery-related games like this one, to hiding its massive cash reserve in overseas tax havens in order to keep from paying US taxes as a US corporation, to "you\'re holding it wrong", if you really wanted to learn about the real Apple, it shouldn\'t take you very long at all.', 'Holy shit you do a ton of Apple defending, even when completely off base.  ', ">  I would much rather have a faster development and release cycle\n\nKeeping older devices up to date doesn't slow down anything.  They just need to pay for more programmers.  It's purely about amassing more wealth at the majority of their customers' expense.\n\n> to accommodate a small group of people.\n\nI think you'll find that the majority of Apple users are NOT using the latest versions of all of their products.  \n\nApple thanks you for your service...", "Of course, the KEY difference here is that I didn't buy off my congressmen and senators (and those of other countries) in order to CREATE that tax loophole in the first place...just so that I could take advantage of it to cheat the nation that made my company possible (re: the USA) out of hundreds of billions of dollars...\n\nAhem.", 'And if you had a dead DVD drive like me, you were SOL unless you did this hack to make a USB stick.  Was dumbness all around.', "It's just interesting to hear people's grievances over the other companies. Like I give Apple shit too, but like you said, they make it seamless experience. It just works. \n\nI spend all day tinkering around with computers, the last thing I want to do is mess around with my phone or some other device. And at the very least, Apple releases a finished product most of the time. Google less so and Microsoft barely ever so.  Like yeah Apple took the headphone away (but all these others started following) l, yeah they released expensive Bluetooth earphones, but the thing just works so beautifully and seamlessly. You just don't get that with the other two, the other two just don't seem to care about user experience.\n\nAnd I understand your google maps issue, I've had the same thing. Except I was in a different country in a relatively unsafe part of town. They always break the damn thing. Or they just get some software and abandon it.... Already mentioned Microsofts god damn hardware... I hate them but I still use Windows.", 'Wow first good thing ive heard that apple has done.\nApple has always been a company I dont trust updates from, it did in fact ring true with my ipod(worked great for years very little issues) until one day i decided to update itunes and ipod, it stopped working almost instantly.\nI was ae to pull out the hd and test it and it was great...but ipod said no hd...\nI said apple updates kill old obsolete hardware.', "I feel I can rag on all of Apple's shitty decisions and greedy policies in a thread about Apple's latest shitty decision and greedy policy, thanks.  You are free to disagree, of course.", "Nah it keeps showing up in the background! But I haven't been paying much attention to it, it might be altering between the update and urging me to buy more storage", "I disagree. If Apple is going to pride itself on the quality of their batteries being the best in the business then they need to back it up with their batteries and not their software hacks making sure the battery doesn't have to do any actual work. ", 'This has been a feature on laptops for years.', '“I can make shit up and put it in quotation marks as well.”', 'Yeah, and they weren’t really similar at all, except superficially; I didn’t say anything about power. First of all, they weren’t running mobile operating systems. They still tended to be fairly (physical) keyboard and stylus oriented. They were basically just laptops shoved into something more or less the shape of a tablet. Everyone thought Apple was going to do the same thing because releasing a tablet that only ran iOS seemed way too limited. I mean, why would someone want a giant iPhone?\n\nI was selling computers for a living when the iPad came out. There was nothing similar, it was a new category. It was months before anything similar came out running Android, and those really *were* just larger (mostly 7 inch) smartphones. IIRC the first real competition took more like a year, and a lot of those still failed miserably ([Motorola Xoom anyone?](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Motorola_Xoom)). The first 10 inch Samsung tablet didn’t ship until well into 2011, after the iPad 2 was already out.', 'Yeah, no. Just no. Selective memory’s not even close to correct here.', '>There were already android tablets out with cameras and the whole 9? You can\'t act like the iPad was the first tablet...it came into an already booming market but it sold like hotcakes because well, its apple. \n\nI\'m sorry, but you clearly have *absolutely no idea* what you\'re talking about. I don\'t know if you\'re too young to remember or simply weren\'t paying attention, but there were absolutely not Android-based tablets already on the market before the iPad came out, much less any successful ones.\n\nThe first android tablets I can find any reference to online are the Dell Streak 5 and the Samsung Galaxy Tab 7, both of which came out months after the iPad, and it\'s debatable whether they really count since they were much closer to being large smartphones than anything else.\n\nThe tablet market was definitely not "booming" before the iPad.\n\nI think you\'re getting confused because "tablet" can refer to several different kinds of devices. The iPad is sometimes called a "media tablet" or "Post-PC tablet". I\'m only claiming the iPad was the first of those types of devices (or at least the first to be commercially successful, depending on whether you want to count things like the newton)- not the first device to be *called* a tablet (which were mostly Windows-based, and still essentially full computers).', 'I doubt that. Until this happened, I would have thought that nobody would blame a company for prolonging the useful life of its products, either.\n\nJudging by the amount of misinformation being passed around about this issue, even though plenty of tech publications have been explaining it correctly, most people aren’t knowledgeable enough about electronics to not blame Apple even if they were given a choice and chose to let their phone keep crashing.', 'Aside from your hyperbolic rant about the level of throttling, the reason Apple was unique in providing such a solution is: most manufacturers can’t.  It’s Apple’s control and design of most of the hardware that allowed such a “solution”, nothing more. \n\nIt’s kind of silly that there are plenty of knowledgeable tech insiders that have explained this and the entire situation ad nauseum in recent days, yet self described tech fans are still glomming onto conspiracy theories and fanboyism. It’s gross. ', "Seriously, anyone that thinks Apple just owned up to it apparently missed the news about the lawsuit in France today where they have a clearly written law against planned obsolescence. Without that lawsuit it would've continued the way it's been", "They purposely slowed down the processors in iPhone 6 and iPhone 6S to iPhone 3GS speeds to cover a manufacturing defect that causes random reboots when the battery drops to 80% capacity or less.  \n\nAn 80% capacity battery should not cause a random shutdown issue, period.\n\nBefore the release of the iPhone 6 with the shutdown defect, Apple would only replace batteries with 50% capacity or less before the warranty period expired.  This policy changed in 2015 after the iPhone 6 release because they knew about the manufacturing defect causing those random shutdowns.  This battery replacement policy change was a stop gap measure to limit any negative publicity and the costs associated with recalling and replacing the defective devices.   What's telling is Apple used to replace the phone entirely if the battery was defective before the end of the warranty, but stopped this practice at exactly the same time.\n\nhttps://www.macrumors.com/2015/06/29/applecare-mac-batteries-80-percent/", "Think of it like this. They didn't want to fire you. They wanted you to quit. \n\nIf the problem was that accute people would demand refunds and stuff. This way, the phone starts to slow down right as all your friends are getting shiny new ones.\n\nIt's subtle. It's effective. And it's awful.\n\nEdit: \n\nI'd also like to add that Steve Wozniak himself has said that it's not necessary to upgrade every year or even every two.  Yet they act like the iPhone release is it's own mini Christmas every year.\n", 'Solution? Make the battery easy to replace. ', '#totallynotashill', "Make a battery that will last 2 years without noticeable degradation?\n\nTesla's model 3 battery is guaranteed to be over 70% at 8 years of high drain usage, perhaps Apple could ask for some pointers.", 'Are you updated to the latest iOS?', "People vote with their wallets, they'd rather have thin than fast.  Also people are stupid.", "The average person will compromise and buy a lesser phone. We as people like convenience. We love easy and simple. It really isn't that tough to figure out.\n\nThe non-average person, or peoples, will attempt to create a phone with that particular feature and failed most times. Maybe one will succeed and others will buy it. ", 'by doing a recall instead of a software hack that is being spun as pro consumer.', 'Sounds like anecdotal experience. It’s just as common for an android to become slow as hell with bad battery drain upon updating as iPhones.', 'But how many devices get them. You also said yearly which is different to Apple’s which is monthly. I know Android gets updates but not every device can update to the newest software.', "Idk I feel like a straw man would be if the person I replied to actually believed that people expected brand new free phones, or that I actually believed people expected the executives to be lynched. When I wrote it, it was more like sarcasm to mock the idea of apple doing anything more than what they did. Like they're a money making company, they can only offer so much without being foolish.\n\nSurely there's a difference between purposeful overexageration and attacking a straw man.", "My dad isn't really the kind of person who's patient with technology. If there's any gains to be gotten by replacing the battery ASAP, he'd definitely appreciate them.", "They made the problem intentionally. If you bought a vacuum that was programmed to intentionally decrease suction a month after the warranty expires, you wouldn't be at least disappointed?\n\n\nI'm confused why this position is being brigaded just in this sub. ", "He's not saying the price of the battery is wrong, but there's more to it than just the cost of the part.", "Like I said, component price doesn't exist in a vacuum. It's silly to try to quantify it. A battery that costs Apple $6 when they order 10 million of them might cost $80 when someone orders one.\n\n>Do you have a better source for the actual price of their cost? Better than the one I provided.\n\n*Any source of information* on cost is better than (or at least as good as) the one you provided. The source you provided is based on hearsay, smoke, mirrors, and a fundamental ignorance of the manufacturing proccess.", 'Yes, you can still see the battery health percentage.', 'Really?! Thank you so much! Gonna check that out right now!', "Thank you, I'm gonna check this out right now!", 'Pixels have their own issues as well, much like every device. ', "https://www.ebay.com/itm/REAR-BACK-CAMERA-LENS-GLASS-FRAME-FOR-SAMSUNG-GALAXY-S4-MINI-i9190-i9195-LTE-/361473392052\n\ndon't know how you'll survive.\n\nedit: https://www.ebay.com/itm/Rear-Back-Camera-Module-for-Samsung-Galaxy-S4-IV-i9505-i337-i545-L720-M919-R970/222061207477?hash=item33b3e11fb5:g:vloAAOSwD0lUjF2Z\n\ni linked the wrong one earlier probably.  oops.  atleast now youll get it in 3 days instead of 3 months from CHYNA", 'How dare you have an opinion', "The Nexus 5 suffered from the exact same problems, it had a 2300mAh battery.\n\nMy Lenovo laptop suffered from the exact same problem, it was a T420.\n\nMy Gigabyte laptop suffered from the exact same problem, it was from 2014.\n\nMy colleagues Macbook suffers from the exact same problem ...\n\nThis isn't an Apple issue, it's a battery issue. Sure, Apple could have made the phone/battery larger, but then we would have this problem when the battery reached 70% capacity.", '> And to this day, you never heard about a Macbook throttle the CPU because of battery degradation.\n\nAnd to this day my colleagues 4 year old Macbook Pro turns off when he uses CPU/GPU intense programs and the battery is around 40% or less.\n\nMy Gigabyte laptop did the same.\n\nMy ex-GFs Nexus phone did the exact same thing. My extremely old iPod touch does the exact same thing too.\n\nThis is just how batteries work. They lose capacity & voltage as they degrade. To claim it is planned obsolescence is just as idiotic as claiming your parents planned that you would age and stop functioning optimally.', 'Basic economics? Marginal cost. Apple doesn’t need to hire new developers because they are already on payroll. Replacing batteries costs an extra $X per device.', 'It could but theres a trade of because there a ton of points that will have to get extra water proofing  evade the case can be opened. So the phone will be bulkier. And most people are picking the thin fancy designed phones over replaceable batteries. ', 'Yeah but your comparison is ridiculous so it delegitimizes your argument a bit', ">If you want a 20.000mAh one then yeah, it'll be bulky. If you opt for a 5.000mAh it definitely isn't.\n\n[Galaxy S4 battery](http://www.samsung.com/uk/consumer/mobile-devices/accessories/battery/EB-B600BEBECWW/) 63 x 57 x 5.3mm = 19 cm^3\n\n[The first 5.000mAh battery i found on google](https://www.mijnwebwinkel.nl/winkel/howseabenelux/a-50627886/smartphone-accessoires/power-bank-5-000-mah/) 127 X 67 X 9 MM = 76.5cm^3\n\nIm sure someone can go and find an outlier that shows that the opposite but the fact is battery packs are bulky when compared to phone batteries.\n\n>It also charges other things than your own personal phone, which is extremely handy to yourself (and your family) & helpful to others.\n\nirrelevant to the point  - which is battery packs are bulky when compared to phone batteries and thats why people dont want to carry them around. I have two battery packs, I would absolutely much rather carry around a spare phone battery.", 'Except with Apple where unless I pay for an adapter I have to choose between charging my phone or listening to my headphones. \n\nThere are also features that only work when your battery is above a certain percentage charge, regardless of whether it’s plugged in. ', "I don't use any other gadget than my phone in my daily life. :/", "Never mind the fact that phones are never waterproof, only water resistant, and warranties don't cover water damage. It's a safety net, not a feature. ", 'I wash my iPhone X weekly. Like under running water with detergent. Phones get grimy as fuck man', 'Jerking off. ', 'Podcasts and audiobooks mainly, but the occasional YouTube video as well. ', "You're right.  It's so awesome to have an iPhone dangling from a Mophie Juicepack so you can take a selfie instead of swapping out for a full charge battery.", 'You need to learn to read your own source. The second digit is for water ingress. I referred to IP67 and IP68 which current devices are rated. Powerful water jets or regular water jets would be IPX6 and IPX5 respectively. The 7 and the 8 are immersion only. \n\nThe 6 is in the first digit and that indicates dust protection which we aren’t discussing here. \n\nGo read your source again and more carefully this time. ', 'IP ratings are self certified, so they can essentially slap whatever rating they are comfortable with.\n\nThere are several articles out there for the iPhone 7 and Galaxy S7 that shows they aren’t IP67, at least not in whole. Albeit tests with both phones didn’t lead to total loss, several parts of the phones were broken by water (mainly speakers). \n\nApple even says you shouldn’t charge your phone for five hours after coming into contact with water, yet I can plug my power lead into a wet IP67 rated outlet and it’s fine.\n\nIf you believe for a minute that any gadget that looks like any cutting edge phone is proper IP67, then I’ve got some unicorn dust to sell you.', "This is true. I have 2 cases personally, as I mentioned in another comment. I think it's probably worth it in regards to a whole new phone being more expensive.", "I have 2 cases? One for hiking and activities in which my phone might get damaged, and one for day to day activities. It would increase your options and you wouldn't have to replace your entire phone when the battery died.\n\n\nThis is just how I would do things. To each their own. ", "How the hell is worrying about an extra 6 millimeters of thickness adding a ton of weight logical?   \n\nDo you live on the Sun, Marty, or is there a problem with the Earth's gravitational pull in 1985?  ", 'User replaceable ones are like $10-20 each ', "I did ifixit for my iPhone 6s plus. Very impressed with the kit and general ease of replacement. The only thing I didn't like was the sealing material had to be basically destroyed to open the device without an easy way to replace it. The 6s plus had unofficial water resistance which was probably ruined by me replacing my battery ", 'There are many reputable third party sellers you just have to know where to look. Stay away from eBay international (specifically Chinese) sellers as those tend to be worse quality. Your phone should have some sort of fan website or forum which you can go to to find which manufacturer is good. ', 'They are the same specs as oem. even have the smart charge chips or whatever in them. The one i have now from then is going on a year and still fine ', 'will edit for that, meant it to lighthearted.', "The IPhone had a non-replaceable battery when it wasn't water resistant so being water resistant is not the reason it has a non replaceable battery.", 'There is no "android-branded" cable. It\'s a generic USB 2.0 Micro-B cable (or a USB type-C cable in newer phones). I can simply use the detachable micro-USB cable of my Razer mouse to charge my phone, because they both use a standard USB connector.\n\nYou can rightfully blame Apple for needlessly forcing non-standard proprietary connectors in their devices, but that doesn\'t make it a monopoly. If you have a problem with companies using proprietary connectors, vote with your wallet and don\'t buy shit that uses proprietary connectors.', "iPhone chargers aren't Apple's market, phones and tablets are... it's very easy to replace apple phones with an android phone of another brand.", 'By the way you are defining a "Monopoly" everything is a Monopoly.\n\nToyota had a Monopoly on Toyota products \n\nNike has a Monopoly on Nike products\n\nLego had a Monopoly on Lego products\n\n\n iPhone is not the only phone out there, the fact that the iPhone uses something proprietary does not make apple an iPhone cable Monopoly', "And yet back 2 decades ago, we had all of that in much less than 1 gig. It's just bloated as fuck now. Programming used to care about processor time, memory usage. Hell, maths undergraduate degrees *still* teach about an algorithm's time/space requirements. Nowadays, unless it's some crazy huge deep learning, no one gives a shit about how bloated an algorithm is.\n\nTake numpy.genfromtxt - people still use it to read csvs despite it taking orders of magnitude longer than pandas.read_csv just because it's better at reading badly formatted data.", 'Go look at the article. Specifically says that it will limit the number of apps open. It’s not a RAM issue.', "HTC... Well there is your problem. There is a reason why they have negative press over negative press and losing money and everything. I'm still shocked that they can survive all that. Speaking of surVIVE... That won't help them either.\n\nAlso don't get LG too.", "Apple culture had always been cult'ish. Their stores look like churches for a reason. No worries :)", 'These days I don’t feel like I need to jail break my iPhone 5. Has all the features I want really and don’t really need any more. Back around 2010, I did that to my iPod touch and back then it was much more needed especially as you couldn’t even change the iPhone wallpaper. I also downloaded a load of apps for free with installous I think it was. But it made that iPod so slow, to the point it was unusable after it was jailbroken for a while. \n\nBut yeah this iPhone X software seems a bit weird, I don’t see what else people need in Apple software these days after ios10?! ', 'yeah i did this remotely, not sure what they (apple) did, but it restarted my phone a number of times. was a lot of BS really as i fully know well my phone battery is i think as weak as it can get as its about 4 years old! guess a poor battery is a given now.', "I called Google support although last I heard they had stopped offering Pixels as replacements after word hit forums that they were doing this and they got absolutely flooded with people claiming they were having battery issues just to get free Pixels. I called right after I read the first story about it (my phone legitimately had a battery issue, as soon as it hit 20% it would die without warning) and was on hold for 90 minutes. The next day they ended the policy. That was months ago so I'm not sure what the policy is now.", "> This is completely wrong. There's circuitry in the phone (and battery itself) that will stop charging when it's full and just power the phone from the charger. Exceptions here are high power (gaming) laptops that need more power than the charger can provide.\n\nYeah, that wasn't what I meant.\n\nCharging a phone from ~10% to 100% is bad for the battery.\n\nIf you kept your battery between 30% and 80% you literally get 2-4x as many charge cycles out of it.", '> If its the end of the day, wtf am i supposed to do? Set an alarm to wake me up to unplug my phone at 80% charge?\n\nI just learned to plan around it and charge in the evening while I\'m awake.\n\nAlternatively charge at work, or buy a powerbank and charge all over.\n\nI\'m not sure if the extra 20% are worth it to "low cost" items like phones. Cars and other things actually do exactly that - but for an item that literally is supposed to be used for 2-4 years it probably doesn\'t make sense.\n\nJust spend the $20 on replacing the battery after 2 years ...', 'Yes it does.\n\nIt doesn\'t "overcharge" the battery, but keeping a battery at 100%, or even charging a battery to 100% regularly is not the best way to treat it.\n\nA typical phone battery will perform well for around 600 charge cycles.\n\nIf you instead charge the battery only between 20% and 80% you can get up to 2400 charge cycles.\n\nLeaving your battery plugged in, or even charging it to max all the time, is not the optimal way to prolong battery life.\n\nThis is why expensive & large batteries, like the ones found in home battery systems, or EVs, only charge between 20% and 80% - and why Tesla was able to send a software update that enabled the last 20% to be used during the hurricane.', "Except this isn't the case. Windows 8 was bringing old laptops back to life. NEXT!!!", 'Water resistance ', 'How many people do you suppose would have ended up just replacing their battery on their laggy phone instead of buying a new one if they knew the battery was the cause of it losing its speed?', '> , but instead said “how can we prolong the life of the devices, the cheapest way possible?”\n\nErr more like "How can we prevent returns in warranty period". This is very common in the world of electronics. For example hard drives. In enterprise style hard drives error conditions get reported immediately. In desktop drives, many if not most manufactures violate S.M.A.R.T standards and hide errors for as long as possible to prevent returns.', 'Would also be nice if they just stopped intentionally slowing down my shit.  \n\nI accept that batteries lose effectiveness over time but that should have no bearing on how fast my phone runs.', 'Seriously think about this. If I were in a situation where I needed my phone (car broken down on the side of the road, home intruder, my pregnant wife needs to get in touch with me), I’d much rather have a slowed phone that works vs a phone that shuts off if the battery can’t provide enough power. That’s the safety I’m talking about.\n\nShould they have been more transparent about what they did? Absolutely. Did they do the wrong thing? I don’t think so.', 'Is it lonely up there on your pedestal? ', 'How on earth does 3. work when your battery loses voltage with age?\n\n4 is not a defect, it\'s how batteries work ... they lose capacity & voltage as they age. The only way to mitigate it is to add capacity that isn\'t there for use and solely serves to prolong battery life (this is what the Tesla Powerwall and all modern EVs do.)\n\n5 is halfway true. You can replace the battery (I paid $20 and had it done) and it\'ll perform as it did when it was new. But software doesn\'t "upgrade" performance for very old hardware.\n\nI have no clue why you\'re expecting a company to spend tons of resources optimizing for 2-4 year old hardware, instead of optimizing for the new devices that have more cores, different architecture, and generally perform better.\n\nIf it was my company I would do the exact same. But I\'m glad to see you\'re in the software charity business.', 'Yeah I thought about it a little more and I’m sure you’re right, we just don’t know for sure. I there’s plenty to hate on them for without mostly baseless assumptions. ', 'Only thing I hate is the fact that Apple uses basically superglue to hold the fucking thing in', 'It *can* happen. Particularly in the cold (-40 in canada right now - hooray!) with a sudden demand for power. For instance you left your phone in the car, and then go to open up something intensive - it could just reboot.  If only they were transparent about this feature when implementing it then they would likely have been praised for it. \n\n', 'Your phone slowed down like turtle,  time to ditch it. ', nan, 'Nothing about this conversation has been good, frankly. You\'ve been completely unhelpful if your intent has been to correct another\'s path. Maybe if you considered voicing your perspective or the facts as you see them, that would help enlighten anyone who reads into our convo and myself as well. But instead of being a cool guy like, "Hey, this is why you\'re wrong, blah blah blah...just helping you out", *you didn\'t, unfortunately.\n\n But hey, shitting on me is fine too I guess. Thanks.', "Maybe not full OS upgrades, but updates were pushed out nonetheless. Primary point is Android isn't crippling their older devices like Apple does. But keep sipping the kool aid like a good cult member. ", "Apple themselves admitted this.  How much more daft can you be?\n\n>We also want our customers to know that an iPhone is actually designed to shut down automatically under certain conditions, such as extremely cold temperature. *To an iPhone user, some of those shutdowns might seem unexpected, but they are designed to protect the device’s electronics from low voltage.*\n\nhttps://support.apple.com/zh-cn/HT207414\n\n\n>Good news for iPhone users fed up with infuriating battery-shutdown woes: There might just be a solution to your problem. Chances are, it's already at work in your phone.\n\n>Frustrated iPhone users have reported unexpected system shutdowns for months. The battery issues, which affect iPhone 6, 6 Plus, 6S and 6S Plus devices, typically strike when power levels dwindle to about 30 percent. The phones shut down without warning with no way to restart the system until it's plugged in to a power source. \n\n>Believe it or not, Apple is aware of the issue and hasn't been sitting on its hands about it. It included some measures to address the problem in iOS 10.2.1 (which was released on Jan. 23), and now the company says it's gathered enough data to conclude the shutdowns are becoming less of a problem.\n\nhttp://mashable.com/2017/02/24/iphone-battery-shutdown-update/\n\nApple's solution is underclocking the processor to 600 mAh, as evidenced by the Reddit post and numerous Tweets that revealed this problem-\n\nhttps://www.reddit.com/r/iphone/comments/7inu45/psa_iphone_slow_try_replacing_your_battery/", "overlooking distribution costs?  I'll bet you it costs more to deliver 999 bucks of bread to a grocery store than it does to deliver 1 iphone to best buy.  Deal?  The argument you need to make is that wonder bread has 3 or 4 x margins of the generics but still outsells the generics.  I don't think that is a true argument though, I'll wait here for your information on it", 'For Brexit reeducation, it is all going fine.', 'Friend Computer wishes you to comply. Are you resisting Friend Computer?', 'See you in the room without shadows', 'Located near beautiful Lake Laogai!', 'At least the queue will be orderly. ', 'The first rule of tautology club is the first rule of tautology club. ', "Ha, well the jokes on them, I let my passport expire so they won't be able to make Europe take me, especially now there are going to be checkpoints. ", 'Worth a shot anyway, thanks! ', 'Full on Apple store', 'Yea it is a little to late for all of that. The tech at the store had to send the phone back to factory because he had never seen  what was going on with my phone. Out of no were it got supper slow like dial up slow  it stopped playing music  when an auction cord was attached and if it did work it would only be for 2 min and then freeze for 2-3 min', "In this case it could absolutely be true. All it takes is for one employee to feel sorry for OP's father and offer a replacement free of charge. I used to work as tier 2 iOS support, it happened. It's not common because the policies are drilled into agents, but it happens. And your example is dumb and obviously no, they wouldn't honour that. If a tier 1 agent feels bad for someone and offers a replacement outside of policy but doesn't have the system access to process it and passes the case to tier 2, then they would have to honour it. Some tier 2 agents might resist but if the customer is firm on it then it's going to happen.", 'Google gives you a few on the first page, [here is one](https://www.quora.com/Is-it-possible-to-change-the-IMEI-number-of-a-cell-phone) ', 'Samsung is full of shit nowadays, they have a bunch of stuff to prevent you from changing the IMEI, or even restoring it if you have NAND die on you. Apple is and always was full of shit, with the amount of shit only increasing over time. But many of the other manufacturers, especially the ones who use MediaTek chips, give no fucks. You can find where IMEI is stored in NAND and change it to any valid IMEI, if you want to. This is usually done when you get NULL IMEI after a NAND failure or a flashing accident, but you can use it to evade IMEI blacklist/whitelist.\n\nSource: been there done that.', "My head hurts, but I appreciate you taking the time to explain that! It's made me appreciate keyboard input software that little bit more :D  \n\n", "So it's basically software that knows the language well enough to do it right?  \n\n", 'Alright. Thanks a ton for answering!', 'Cool, but you doesn’t change the fact about pixels.', 'Not from google. You can get it done from a phone store, but google won’t touch the phone.', 'From Google, you can’t.', "If i don't like how some corporations work i'm free to make a sarcastic comment as long as it's not vulgar. Don't patronize me, you're not going to change me or my views by doing so. ", "It's us vs them mentality, similar to politics... Everyone likes to be on a winning team, and here I am, just wanting to use my phone :)", 'They still get those.', "Sounds like you're a fucking moron.", 'Not my experience. Took me 3 tries with my 6S before the replacement program started up. ', "If it's that easy, then surely you'll have no problems backing up your claims...", 'Mainly because there’s so much fake news about Apple this last week. ', 'It sure does slow it down. Money spent on those extra programmers could have been used on development on the current platforms rather than the old ones. \n\nApple has created in each product line a division between those that gets continued updates and support and those that do not. Where that line sits is not immediately after the latest version. Apple has strategically chosen a specific age of a product in which they feel people have gotten enough use out of the product to upgrade. As a result, the number of people who do not chose to upgrade because of these support and development limitations are smaller than those who chose to upgrade. This is the “small group of people” that I speak of.\n\nWhere that line should be drawn is debatable and part of another discussion. I simply argue that that line needs to exist to keep technology and development moving forward as a sufficient pace. \n\nI would argue that the purpose of a publicly traded corporation is to amass wealth to the benefit of the stockholders. One would expect it’s at the customer’s expense because they are the ones paying for the service and products. If you are not happy with it, you don’t have to buy it. Then the sales figures will force Apple to adjust to retain their profit margins.  My guess is that there are more than enough people who are willing to upgrade than not, hence my APPL position has steadily been increasing over the years.  \n\nThe dividends alone pay for my Apple products, so I can have myself to thank for apple’s service. ', 'Those tax breaks existed before Apple and they will exist after Apple. ', "I agree, but I'm not sure why you're pointing that out.  Your comment never mentions Apple.", "People don't tend to walk around using laptops, so needing a power supply to work isn't as big an issue", "I was not too young to remember....maybe booming wasn't the right word and Yes i will give you that the iPad was the first widely commercially successful tablet. But the streak, and the Galaxy tab came out in the same year as the iPad and they both had cameras. The follow year a whole slew of new tablets hit the market as well. My original point still stands, that Apple intentionally held back certain features from their mobile products so they can turn around and sell V2 a year after with guaranteed sales because by then people with iPad's wanted a camera like the other tablets being sold had. I don't think they intentionally do this anymore, now, i just think they simply cannot keep up with Samsungs technology... for phones at least. That is why they are always a generation or 2 behind the Galaxy. ", 'Pretty sure it was either sarcasm or trolling.', 'That’s a very good point! It’s unfortunate and sad people really aren’t knowledgeable enough anymore. People don’t even care to educate themselves about it so I have concluded your sort of correct.', "This whole debacle is a joke, with the vast majority of those complaining not even understanding what they're complaining about or what even started this mess. I think Apple made a bad move here by offering cheap battery replacements instead of staying firm and trying to push more people into understanding. Instead, you now have a ton of people who are interpreting Apple's move in different ways depending on what nonsense theory they're running with.", "Wait, so there aren't screenshots of iPhones being underclocked to 600 mHz and jumping back to 1400 mHz after a battery change?\n\nDo you mean to tell me Anandtech's description of iPhone 3GS's processor clocking in at an amazing 600 mHz speed was also hyperbole?", "*Users* found that the throttling stops when the battery is replaced. And no one wrote any expose, some users on Reddit did some experiments and posted their findings.\n\n> There was zero proof this was a thing before this as well.\n\nI'm not sure what you mean. If you actually read the article it clearly states that this power management was added in the January '17 update, and was documented.\n\n\nYou, like everyone else, is just dying to confirm your suspicions and are ignoring what the actual issue here is (which is that the iPhone 6s' battery does not last nearly long enough before degrading and Apple tried to quietly mitigate the problem with a software update).", 'It’s not planned obsolescence though. If anything, it’s the opposite.', "I mean... how is this different than any laptop or flashlight with a battery? It might work fine for year during the warrenty or two after it's over, but eventually anything with a battery will die/lose power. That is how batteries work...", 'The batteries in iPhones are easier to replace than almost every other manufacturer’s flagship phone. Seriously. The phone comes apart with two measly screws. It’s not hard.\n\nAlmost everyone glues their phone together.', 'Given that old iPhones are not designed to easily change batteries.*\n\nSorry for not adding the premise to the question.', 'iPhone 6 was released on 2014, the question is how would you fix an EXISTING problem, and you are suggesting time travel.\n', 'The pointer here is to make a 15 foot wide phone so they can fit a thousand cells in there and use an algorithm and active water cooling to balance the wear across those cells.', 'Yes. I’ve also updated to an iPhone 7 since then, but it was current up until that point.', "If you're purchasing phones for your dad, I don't think he's technically inclined enough to even know there are potential gains to be gotten here. Also, as users have said, you don't even know if his phone is affected. He very well could gain absolutely nothing and you could be replacing a healthy battery. It's best to wait and verify, then either replace it ASAP or wait until closer to the end of the year to get your replacement battery, prolonging the life of the phone by almost a year. ", "That's not what is happening though. \n\nMy vacuum, regardless of where in the warranty is at, would see a suction power decrease if the battery is having issues, that way it would still run the entire time and not just shut down.\n\nI had a bad battery in my car and it caused the headlights to dim, (among other issues) likely to ensure there is enough battery for the engine to turn over until the alternator can take over.\n\nI would much rather have a car that has dimmer lights, than a car that wont turn on.\n\nAnd, hey, when that battery needed to be replaced, I bought a new one. The manufacturer didn't just hand it to me.\n\n", 'But it’s not as if apple is going to order the batteries right when people choose to replace them. They likely know a lot of people will replace batteries as soon as the price drops and bought a lot in advance at a lower price. Maybe not 6 dollars but definitely less than 30. ', "I appreciate the link. I'm really not too bummed about it, I was more making a slam on iPhones. It was vague and not a very good joke. Thanks for taking time to find that for me though haha", 'Im so confused ', "What's the difference between the Nexus 5, Lenovo laptop, Gigabyte laptop and the iPhone 6/6s? \n\nThe processor isn't underclocked in those devices to disguise faulty battery issues.  Furthermore, the devices do not shutdown randomly when the battery still has 80% capacity, either.\n\nThis is most definitely an Apple issue, and it's exactly why Apple changed their AppleCare battery replacement policy after the iPhone 6 release to replace batteries with 80% or less capacity remaining in the first year (instead of 50% or less capacity as they had in the past).  They were also careful to extend this to previous iPhones as well as MacBooks so they could claim this wasn't related to the known design flaw in the case of a lawsuit. \n\nAlso, Apple was sued by the Chinese government for the iPhone 6 shutdown problem because it affected so many people-https://www.reuters.com/article/us-apple-battery/chinese-consumers-body-takes-up-complaints-of-iphone-shutdowns-with-apple-idUSKBN13A1AN", "It wasn't planned.  It was an engineering and manufacturing defect. \n\nApple engineers were too concerned with shaving off an extra millimeter of thickness that they neglected to add a battery big enough to provide enough voltage to power the processor even at 80% capacity, let alone at 40⅝...", "It's a myth that phones can't be thin and have a replaceable battery. We're fed this BS by the companies so they can keep selling us phones every 1.5 years.", 'Only if the person is close-minded. ', 'That\'s your prerogative. I don\'t find them that bulky.\n\nYour "first result on Google" pretty much tells it all. What a lazy argument ...\n\nAnd a Galaxy S4? Really dude? It\'s a 4 year old phone, with a battery that\'s 15% smaller than an S7.\n\n>irrelevant to the point - which is battery packs are bulky when compared to phone batteries and thats why people dont want to carry them around. I have two battery packs, I would absolutely much rather carry around a spare phone battery.\n\nNot irrelevant at all. I\'m not buying a powerbank because of size, I\'m buying it for functionality.', 'What features are you talking about? The only ones I’m aware of are system updates. \n\nAlso to be fair... blue tooth headphones... but yes, requires a new purchase. \n\nWorth noting my SO just got a Pixel 2 and it also has no headphone jack and doesn’t come with headphones at all... so this isn’t an Apple exclusive problem. Pretty sure Samsung flagships are the same way about having a single port. ', '> Except with Apple where unless I pay for an adapter I have to choose between charging my phone or listening to my headphones.\n\nSame with Google produced phones. There are rumors that Samsung won\'t feature a mini-jack on their S9, but time will tell.\n\n>There are also features that only work when your battery is above a certain percentage charge, regardless of whether it’s plugged in.\n\nThe only "feature" I have seen that works the way you\'re describing is when there is a system update. It requires either a 50% charge, or that the phone is plugged in.', 'No bluetooth headset? No portable speaker? No laptop?\n\nThose are all pretty common.\n\nThen you have drones, mini-projectors, wireless gamepads.', "Hoooly fuck, buddy.\n\nA rubber ring around a removable backplate is not nearly as an effective waterproofing implementation. It is exactly like using a rubber port flap—not nearly as an effective design as a sealed unit with waterproof ports. See the comparison?\n\nWelcome to 2017. People don't want to trade proper waterproofing, battery capacity, thermal efficiency, industrial design, among many other things just so they be slightly less inconvenienced once every 2 years when (*if*) they change their battery.\n\nRemovable backs (for easy battery replacement) are not as wanted as waterproof phones. Forcing everyone to use removable backs would be like forcing everyone to have rubber port flaps—poor design. It's simply not what people want.", 'IIRC Apple care+ will repair your phone for $99 if you get water damage.', 'Just use a damp paper towel.\n\nMy iPhone 7 plus has never seen water.', "I'll take plugging my phone in to a portable charger for 15 minutes over having to turn my phone off and having to take the back off my phone to replace the battery whenever I get low. ", "For one thing: no one has been discussing the first numeral. Don't know where you got that from..?\n\nSecond of all: I stand corrected, I didn't realize that the code was not cumulative as of X6. So you are right, as long as they are not specified as X5 or X6 as well.\n\nEdit: Realized you meant the 6 in IP67, and no I know that's particles. Gotcha.", "He said it's not RATED for use in the shower. I'm saying it is. Whether the rating is in accordance with the demands of the real world of not is not what's put in question in this discussion... But thank you for the irrelevant novel and anecdotal evidence.", "So why not just have the manufacturer make the phone waterproof, meaning I don't need a bulky ass case when swimming in the pool, or biking in the rain - and then spend 20 min replacing the battery every 2 years?\n\nI have 1 case for my phone which is plenty. The manufacturer has made it dust & water proof so I don't need to worry about that.\n\nThe battery will last at least 2 years, and it costs ~$20 to change it myself, and I spend probably 20-30 min doing it.", 'How the hell is worrying about spending *20 minutes* every 2 years such a huge problem?', 'LMAO at people down voting you for pointing out that 2+2=4.', 'Android branded meaning the box says "works with Android" or something similar. That definitely exists. Also at no point did I say anything was wrong with what apple was doing.', '2 decades ago you had a modern OS like iOS? Modern OSs are far more complex than anything from 2 decades ago, your comparison is completely flawed. ', 'Also owned two Samsung Galaxy phones and both were garbage. Turns out every Android phone sucks. When someone makes a decent one, I’ll consider buying it. I’ve owned one from just about every company and have been disappointed in every case. ', 'My phone dies at like 20-35%. I will give them a call and ask. Thanks for the information!', "In Sweden I'm pretty sure consumer protection laws are in place, such that one should be able to expect a certain amount of use for a certain amount of years and if it's not up to standard then the company is forced to make it up to you if they want to keep selling their products in our country ", "Sorry, communication issue here I think--\n\nWhat I'm arguing is that leaving your device on the charger is not a wrong behavior, I was not trying to argue that maintaining a 100% charge in a battery does not decrease its lifespan.\n\nI think that leaving devices on their chargers should be an expected behavior, and if that contributes to a drop in lifespan for the battery that is an indication of a poor design choice.\n\nI suspect the reason that poor design choice is made for phone's and other portables is because the manufacturer can claim absolute maximum runtimes at the time of sale despite the fact that those runtimes will quickly fall off as times goes on.\n\nWe've been trained as consumers to expect and accept that the runtime of our devices has a sharp fall off after year or two, but it doesn't need to be that way.", "Can I buy an iPhone without that arguably utterly unnecessary feature that I've never ever needed in all my decades of using these devices then?\n\nOf course not...", 'What if your car shut down in the middle of the road because it couldn’t handle the speed you were driving? You’d want there to be a governor so you don’t break down and get in a crash. ', 'When the battery is old and/or at a low charge percentage, it can’t provide as much current. The problem is that the phone needs to draw that current occasionally, so you either reduce performance or face unexpected crashes. Our electric car has the same problem when the battery is *really* low, has to reduce performance. ', "They literally intentionally slowed your phone down when a newer model was released.  Not only are you not outraged you don't even think what they did was wrong.  I mean I've always known how gullible Apple customers are but I never thought it was this bad.", 'Android batteries are bigger.  That\'s why they have enough voltage to power your device even after losing some capacity.\n\nThat covers both points 3 and 4.\n\nAnd in Android\'s case, Google optimizes the software to run better on older devices.  It also implements improvements to battery life.  Doze mode underclocks the processor when your phone is locked, which extends battery life, but allows full performance when needed, unlike Apple\'s cheap "fix."\n\nAndroid shits all over iOS when it comes to actual capabilities.  Apple locks down their devices to the point where they\'re talking about adding the ability to see battery status in 2018...', 'Didnt they stop that years ago?', 'Actually my last phone almost caught fire and it only took Samsung close to 2 months to replace it. Bargain.', ">if shmucks at mall kiosks can swap screens and batteries in mere minutes\n\nAs an appliance repairman, I can tell you that doing the same repair over and over again is not the same as doing it for the first time. A lot can go wrong with delicate electronics in the hands of someone who isn't accustomed to working on them. The time and frustration and potential damage involved in DIY'ing an iPhone battery replacement isn't worth it. $79 is not unreasonable to not have to worry about all that.\n\nHow many people even own a grounding strap or know about avoiding static discharge without one?", 'How can it be when basic reading comprehension doesn’t compute with you? \n\n', 'The implemented solution to help keep iPhones from shutting down due to lithium ion batteries not being able to produce a proper voltage at full load. It’s an issue that all li-ion batteries face.  Apples only failure is communication, tech coal solution is the correct one ', "So you don't get OS updates, cool, glad we established that.  I think you're the one sipping the kool aid and in a cult. Android is a shit show that suffers from massive slow downs as well.  Used Android for 6 years, ain't any better over there, it's worse.  ", "That's an entirely different issue which has been corrected with a recall.\n\n> Two weeks ago, we launched a worldwide program to replace affected batteries, free of charge. \n\nNote that this was in June 2016, making the recall in May.\n\nHow long did you have to search for that? I mean, obscure, out of date forum post on the Chinese Apple support site? Good effort. I expect you didn't think I would actually read it.", 'are you daft? thats gross margin for the company, after all costs... the margin pre-shipping is probably even higher', 'It is the strongest and most stable of plans.', "You'll have to claim asylum and move to Dresden.", 'Talk to the manager. They should replace the battery for free. That’s Apple’s policy here. ', 'Did it also begin to get uncomfortably hot on the upper-right side of the screen/under the rear camera? Usually a sign that your board is on its way out...', "Water resistant isn't water proof, though.", "Oh, and it's easy to send your phone to a repair centre. You just call, explain, they send you the labelled packaging and you ship it. Takes a few days to reach them, a few days to asses, and it either comes back to you in the same state with a letter explaining why or you receive your replacement.", 'Yep. Not to mention Hangeul (Korean alphabet) is very “logical” in the way it’s put together. ', "I'm sorry Dave, I'm afraid I can't let you remember that", 'Big brother, remind me in 2 years', "I guess I don't see how that matters? Dude said he doesn't want an Apple phone and you picked one of many Android phones to bash on. Maybe he has a phone where you can replace batteries 5 times a day. You can't do that with Apple phones, so... ", ">Don't patronize me, you're not going to change me or my views by doing so.\n\nThis has to be the most reddit™ thing I've read all week. Condescending and unwilling to see anything else from anyone else's point of view. Hell, you didn't even respond to what we're discussing, just defending your way of thinking. It's a shame. ", "You lazy sob. :)\n\nhttp://mashable.com/2017/11/10/apples-biggest-screwups-ranked/#6IPBf9O6JsqY\n\nAnd that's the short, fun list...here's more...\n\nhttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Criticism_of_Apple_Inc.\n\nAnd this doesn't even touch on Steve Jobs pulling advertising from magazines/websites that published articles that even slightly criticized Apple or its products, thus blackmailing the information industry into hearing only one side of the story...his.\n\nThis was reflected in the stock price, of course, because no one ever saw stories critical of Apple or its products.  And then Steve would tout the stock price in his PR, which no one could correct or criticize without losing their biggest paying advertiser, etc.  \n\nErgo, a self-reinforcing reality distortion field...", 'What news articles have been fake?', "> It sure does slow it down.\n\nNo, no it doesn't.\n\n>Money spent on those extra programmers could have been used on development on the current platforms rather than the old ones.\n\nNo, it would have cost Apple money, meaning slightly lower profits.  It's not a zero sum game.  They don't HAVE to have $250 billion hidden offshore with X programmers.  They could have had $249.5 billion and hired more programmers just to ripple OS/security updates.\n\n>Apple has ~~strategically~~ selfishly chosen a specific age of a product...\n\n...purely out of their own self-interest. Nothing more.\n\n>I simply argue that that line needs to exist to keep technology and development moving forward as a sufficient pace.\n\nAnd you are quite obviously wrong, as I've pointed out.\n\n>I would argue that the purpose of a publicly traded corporation is to amass wealth to the benefit of the stockholders. \n\nThe price that corporation (and those institutional gamblers) pays for the protection, advantages, access to consumers/markets, infrastructure, etc. etc. is the taxes they pay to the nation.\n\nCheating the nation out of those taxes by buying off politicians around the world is reprehensible, immoral, and should be illegal.  \n\nBut you apparently don't mind it, because it serves your own selfish interest...the same way it serves theirs.  \n\nWhat does that say about them?  What does that say about you?\n", '>I was not too young to remember....maybe booming wasn\'t the right word\n\nYeah, "nonexistent" would have been more accurate.\n\n>But the streak, and the Galaxy tab came out in the same year as the iPad and they both had cameras.\n\nThey were also much smaller screens and inferior in many other ways. I mean, the Dell Streak had a 5" screen... that\'s literally considered a Smartphone now.\n\nNow, you might say, why does screen size matter so much? Ignoring all the arguments I could make about the benefits 10 inch vs 7 inch is in terms of the types of things people use tablets for, it\'s also way more demanding to drive a 10 inch screen. I mean in terms of the CPU/GPU required. Little known fact: The original iPad SoC was barely powerful enough to drive the iPad display. It was the most powerful processor Apple could come up with to put in there (given that it had to be ARM-based, and meet certain power/thermal guidelines... keep in mind Intel had not even started trying to make processors that could go in a smartphone or tablet yet). So being able to release something with a 10 inch screen is very different from being able to release something only slightly larger than a phone.\n\n>My original point still stands, that Apple intentionally held back certain features from their mobile products so they can turn around and sell V2 a year after with guaranteed sales because by then people with iPad\'s wanted a camera like the other tablets being sold had.\n\nYeah, because every company does that when they\'re trying to create a brand new product category that they\'ve been sinking untold billions of R&D dollars into for the past decade (that\'s right, the iPad was actually in development before the iPhone). They think "What features can we deliberately leave out for no other reason than to sell more of version 2?" No doubt you think they could have also made it as thin as the iPad 2 and as fast as the iPad 2 if they weren\'t so damn greedy or incompetent. It can\'t be that maybe it would have pushed the cost of the iPad too high for the pricepoint they wanted to hit (which was **far** lower than everyone was expecting, by the way), or didn\'t integrated well into the components they were using (it\'s not like there was the kind of selection they had later after the industry was jump-started). Or the quality of the camera they would have been able to include (due to one of the above factors) wasn\'t good enough for Apple\'s standards. Or there wasn\'t enough component supply on top of what they needed for other products.\n\nEven if they wanted to do it for the reason you\'re suggesting, it would be an incredibly stupid and transparent move. Everyone knew they were going to add a camera to the second version of the iPad, so anyone who cared about the camera just waited for that. I know because I talked to hundreds of people looking at buying an iPad during that time, and many did decide to wait, or to see what Android competitors came out (usually because they wanted a full-sized USB port or Flash support... two other things people accused Apple of deliberately leaving out because they were going to add it later). Some Android tablets did include those things, but none of them were commercially successful, because as it turns out, adding a full-sized USB port makes the Tablet too thick/heavy, and Flash sucks ass on mobile devices.\n\n>I don\'t think they intentionally do this anymore, now, i just think they simply cannot keep up with Samsungs technology... for phones at least. That is why they are always a generation or 2 behind the Galaxy.\n\nCan you give an example of how they\'re "behind" the Samsung phones? Because their processors, cameras, and screens always score very similarly on everything I\'ve seen. Unless you\'re just talking about gimmicky features that Samsung tends to shove in half-baked to seem cutting edge while Apple just waits for them to be fully baked before adding them, which is just a different philosophy I suppose. ', "They purposely slowed down the processors in iPhone 6 and iPhone 6S to iPhone 3GS speeds to cover a manufacturing defect that causes random reboots when the battery drops to 80% capacity or less.  \n\nAn 80% capacity battery should not cause a random shutdown issue, period.\n\nBefore the release of the iPhone 6 and the shutdown defect, Apple would only replace batteries with 50% capacity or less before the warranty period expired.  This policy changed in 2015 after the iPhone 6 release because they knew about the manufacturing defect causing those random shutdowns.  This battery replacement policy change was a stop gap measure to limit any negative publicity and the costs associated with recalling and replacing the defective devices.   What's telling is Apple used to replace the phone entirely if the battery was defective before the end of the warranty, but stopped this practice at exactly the same time.\n\nhttps://www.macrumors.com/2015/06/29/applecare-mac-batteries-80-percent/", "[Unless you're well versed in French law](https://www.thelocal.fr/20171228/french-lawsuit-launched-against-apple-for-alleged-crime-of-slowing-down-iphones) I'm going to believe Halte à l’Obsolescence Programmée over you. No offense.", 'I mean... Have you ever seen the forest? You know, from the trees?', "Ain't Apple spending big money to remove the right to repair? ", 'The tablet in my hands right now was also released in 2014 and has 15% more milliamp-hours than original spec because it has an aftermarket battery.  No time travel required.', "I'm not the person you're speaking to initially but I would have wanted them to tell us in the 10.2.1 ios update exactly what they were doing and why.  Would that have been too much to ask?", '> Maybe not 6 dollars but definitely less than 30.\n\nAnd the guy they have to pay to do the work? And the overhead for the store said guy works in? And the tools and training they provided to the guy?', "i didn't take the time though.  it was less than 15 seconds of my time.\n\ni didn't even verify if it was a good source.  :|", "Okay, sure thing.\n\nI'm glad to hear you were on the engineering team, and they deliberately did this.\n\nYou must have also been on the Microsoft engineering team, the Google engineering team, the Samsung, Gigabyte, Lenovo, and many others - because I've been facing this battery issue for at least 7 years now.", 'Sorry, I thought you implied Apple should have replaced the batteries.', 'Yeah, how are people buying this shit?\n\nApple 100% can design a phone with a removable battery that is water proof and thin. They just don’t. ', "I never said they can't be thin I said bulkier, waterproofing the openings will add some space. It's a trade off I don't really care either way. But the exact same phone replaceable vs non replaceable the fixed battery phone can be thinner. ", 'You’re right, I should just buy a flashlight instead of a phone. Problem solved :\\^)', 'Just because it suits your needs does not mean it suits everyone. A phone battery is easy to fit in your pocket and you wont notice it much. A big ass powerbank is not easy to carry if you dont have a backpack etc. ', "Dropbox won't backup photo's if your battery is under 15%. ", "Yes. I was originally going to switch over to Google once I've paid off my current phone, but that change has me hesitating. I didn't think it would be that big a deal, but I've had an iPhone for a year now and it's constantly frustrating. Not sure what I'm going to get next, now. \n\nAnd as to the second point, Dropbox won't backup your photos if your battery is below 15%. That feature is annoying sometimes when you're trying to get photos off your phone before the battery runs out (or like screenshots of notes or info that you have on your phone and as its low on battery you need to be able to access somewhere else) it directly impacts functionality. ", "Nope. I prefer wired headsets, have no use for portable speakers and very few laptops have USB-C ports for charging and very few power banks are large enough to even charge them. \n\nFrom my experience people very rarely need or use power banks for anything else than their smartphone. I think your lifestyle is on the extreme end of 'on the go' if you need to charge all those devices portably.", "I don't get these people. I remember the summer the S5 came out. Lots of people I know tried taking their phones to the beach for water shots. Over half of them wrecked their phones, and thus swore off Samsung for good.\n\nPeople keep saying *but muh S5 was waterproof and had a removable battery!* - yeah but the waterproofing was shit. Any openable port will compromise the waterproofing. How can people even think that the S5 is even close to the waterproofing sealed phones like the S8 have?", 'If they explicitly state waterproof there is bound to be small print saying "for x amount of minutes at a depth of x meters". That\'s what the IP water resistance rating refers to.\n\nI can\'t speak for all phones but Apple/Samsung/Sony phones at least are definitely water resistant and not water proof. You can look up IP specifications of your particular model.\n\nThe reason it\'s not covered is because the water seal changes colour when water gets in, that\'s it. There is no indication of how deep the phone was submerged or for how long. So they don\'t cover it at all because there\'s no way for them to know what you did. \n\nWhat\'s worse is that if you come in with an entirely different people (slow battery for example), the first thing they\'ll do is check the seals because even if the problem is unrelated your warranty is automatically nada if seals indicate that water got in. \n\nThere was a lot of debate about this when the Samsung S7 series came out. I\'m in UK but as far as I know this was a world wide policy.\n\nNow I\'m sure if you press them and complain  they might give in as an exception (hell Apple replaced my pink hue screen for free on my iPhone 5 four years after I bought it because the customer service lady agreed to do it over the phone prior to my shop visit), but there is a different between allowable exceptions and official policy.\n\nTLDR: Google your phone\'s IP to see what it\'s protected against and look up your manufacturer\'s water damage policy. ', "I clean mine with a detergent towel every time I come back home. It gets way too dirty at work and I don't want that coming into my house. ", 'I’m with you on the water resistance thing, but it’s pretty cool being able to wake up in the morning and replace your battery (Xbox 360 chargekit style). If it’s low after work, pop it out again with the one on the charger, and you’re good for all night.', "My battery lasts all day and then some.  I'm not glued to my phone 24/7.\n\nI'd rather take the 30 seconds to pop off my phone case than plug it into a portable charger, but there's nothing stopping me from doing that either.", 'No problem, thanks for linking a wiki article, adding zero substance to the discussion and calling people liars. You couldn’t be bothered to even read the fucking article piece about self certification, you halfwit.', 'Anker is superior to OEM ', 'gorillagadgets makes good ones for Samsung as well for 13.99', '"Works with android" isn\'t an official branding or a regulated certification program. The cable will work just the same with a windows phone, a printer, an electric toothbrush or a mouse because it\'s a generic USB standard connector, regardless of what you print on the package. Doesn\'t make it an "android branded" anything.\n\nIn Apple\'s case, they have an actual certification program (called MFi) to get an Apple branding on to a product (which is part of what makes apple branded stuff more expensive).', ">2 decades ago you had a modern OS like iOS? Modern OSs are far more complex than anything from 2 decades ago, your comparison is completely flawed.\n\nYou really think I didn't know they're more complex? Of course they are, but they are also more wasteful. Programmers now treat the resources like processor time and memory usage as unimportant, that's my point, and that's why we're having more issues with batteries and storage than we could be.", 'Now "Samsung Galaxy" doesn\'t say anything to me. Could just as well be a "Samsung Galaxy Y" you\'re talking about. ;)', "Isn't it the same everywhere in EU? ", '> What I\'m arguing is that leaving your device on the charger is not a wrong behavior, I was not trying to argue that maintaining a 100% charge in a battery does not decrease its lifespan.\n\nBut then it\'s "wrong" behavior.\n\nAccording to every phone manufacturer, they record charge cycles as 0-100%, but that doesn\'t mean that\'s the optimal way to prolong your battery life.\n\nIt\'s almost like buying a manual transmission car and then only changing gear when you are at the absolute RPM limit ... yes, the car is designed to also do that, but you\'re not maximizing the life expectancy of your car with that behavior.\n\n>We\'ve been trained as consumers to expect and accept that the runtime of our devices has a sharp fall off after year or two, but it doesn\'t need to be that way.\n\nYes it does. There\'s no way you can use your battery as described and maintain the longest battery life possible.\n\nThere are literally only 2 options to "fix" this:\n\n1. You can try and keep your phone between 20% and 80% charge, thus not using the absolute capacity unless needed (if you\'re away from a plug for a long time etc)\n\n2. The manufacturer adds in extra capacity and limits you from using the bottom and top 20% of capacity - exactly what EVs do, and Tesla does with their power wall.\n\nEither way, you\'re not using the maximum capacity of your battery. Question is just whether you do it yourself, and then have the option to squeeze out more juice when needed, or if you want the manufacturer to force you to do it.\n\nI\'d argue that with a relatively cheap consumer gadget that ages quickly, I\'d rather have option 1.\n\nSo far I\'d say that phone hardware starts really struggling after 3-4 years, so either change the battery after 2, or treat your battery better.', "That's a ridiculous and unnecessary comparison", 'I guess I’m a glass half full kind of guy.', 'They used a pull tab for a while, which was nice. But the 6/6S/7 models I’ve been working on are annealed to the case, no tab here ', "A fair point, but I'm not advocating for an 8 or 80 year old to go out and do this. This is a Technology sub, so I'm assuming the OP I suggested it to or anyone that sees my comment suggesting that as an option is either competent enough to do this carefully or is already savvy enough with tinkering/repair to do so. Perhaps I should have left a precautionary statement advising against it unless they felt confident in their abilities, idk.", 'Hence why battery replacements at a discount are bullshit. They lied/"miscommunicated" with their consumers. That was my WHOLE point. Do whatever they want, but it shows blatant dishonesty when they\'re all about customer service. It\'s stupid.', "Funny, you're using anecdotal evidence to support a minority opinion. Meanwhile Apple is being sued in a class action lawsuit and Android isn't.  Weird. ", 'You asked for a source to prove my statement about Apple not adding a big enough battery to provide enough voltage to the processors once it is at 80% capacity or less.  I linked directly to an Apple source stating random shutdowns are not random but are designed to protect the processor (the device\'s electronics is how they framed it) from low voltage.\n\nNow you\'re making excuses and conflating Apple\'s factual statements about how their phone is actually designed to shutdown to prevent damage from low voltage with "an entirely different issue which has been corrected with a recall"?  \n\nThere were 13 million iPhone 6S sold between September and October 2015 and the ones that shipped with faulty batteries were already exhibiting the random shutdown issues that occur when the iPhone 6S battery is at 80% or less life remaining.  The shutdown issue is why Apple released the iOS 10.2.1 update which underclocked the processors of those iPhones (which would continue to randomly shut down if allowed to run at full speed, of course).\n\n\n> How long did you have to search for that? I mean, obscure, out of date forum post on the Chinese Apple support site? Good effort. I expect you didn\'t think I would actually read it.\n\nIt took me less than a second once I typed the search terms into Google.  Then again, I\'m not using an iPhone underclocked to 600 mHz...\n\n', '"thats gross margin for the company, after all costs"\n\nNo, that\'s not what gross margin means', 'They shattered the screen trying to do a replacement and this forced is to buy a new phone. ', 'The phone in general would just be super hot ', 'It is to hear this guy go on. Some people just want to hate and not find a solution.\n', 'This conversation can serve no purpose anymore.\n\nGoodbye.', "He was bashing on Apple, so I let him know that Pixels aren't any better in this respect. I just don't like stupid comments. Don't like it for proper reasons sure, but Oh, Apple suxors is not a valid one", 'Try getting google to replace a battery on a pixel. They don’t.', "I was defending my right to make a sarcastic comment in good spirit. It's the internet, just laugh and shrug it off.\n", 'The narrative that Apple deliberately slowed down the phones not for engineering reasons but to force people into upgrading. That’s false: not only has Apple and the internal engineers denied it, but it makes no logical sense. ', 'It says they are smart. ', '>Even if they wanted to do it for the reason you\'re suggesting, it would be an incredibly stupid and transparent move. Everyone knew they were going to add a camera to the second version of the iPad.\n\nIf we all knew the V2 just one year later would have it...do you really not believe they were capable of putting out in V1? I believe so, just like I believe they were purposely slowing down phones to push some people onto new ones. Then they turn around and say, "my bad, but here, you can pay us 30$ and we\'ll fix it" and made that sound like a good deal. It would have been a good deal if they were just honest and charged 30$ since the beginning for the battery. 79$ or whatever it was is ridiculous for a new battery. Apple got where they are because they are genius at marketing. They are sharks. You don\'t get to the top of the food chain by being the nice guy. They have just mastered the act of  giving that outward image and then doing what\'s necessary behind the scenes to make their company thrive. And I can\'t blame them but lets just call it what it is...\n\n>Can you give an example of how they\'re "behind" the Samsung phones?\n\nSamsung had NFC first, water-resistant phones for 3 generations before apple had, multitasking, drop down notifications, wireless charging, wireless syncing, opening apps from the lock screen. AND MOST IMPORTANT OF ALL I CAN ADD STORAGE(things is the #1 reason i would never even think of using an iPhone or iPad for my own personal use.) Some of those are attributed to Android obviously but since the Galaxy usually spearheads the new Android features i included them.  \n\nYou sound like an apple fanboy/girl so i do not want to keep this bickering going. As I stated earlier, I do not hate apple. I really only buy macs. I just think now there are better alternatives to their mobile products. To actually help your argument, you are right, there was a time where they had the superior product(the original point wasn\'t about being inferior..just that they withheld tech) but that was a narrow window and now they are relying on their core users who will buy apple regardless because it\'s apple and the older age demographic who want a simplified user interface. \n\n\n', 'I have never spent a cent on an Apple product and I intend to keep it that way, so no fanboying here.\n\n\nOh they were suitably vague about it, but that\'s not unexpected. They stated:\n\n> OS 10.2.1 includes bug fixes and improves the security of your iPhone or iPad. It also improves power management during peak workloads to avoid unexpected shutdowns on iPhone.\n\n\nWhen pushed, they specified that it was specifically to fix a problem with the [6/s](https://techcrunch.com/2017/02/23/apple-says-ios-10-2-1-has-reduced-unexpected-iphone-6s-shutdown-issues-by-80/), and it\'s only now that they\'re going into actual detail about how this "fix" worked.\n\n\nI don\'t think you\'re fully reading what I wrote above. They have fucked some people over, but it\'s just the iPhone 6/s owners and not everyone who ever suspected that Apple slows their phone down when a new device launches. Because *that* is completely unproven. Hey, it could be true, but for now there is still zero evidence that it is, and this issue isn\'t related to it.', 'No. Apple is spending big money to prevent a law that forces them to make service manuals. Yet people, including myself, have been repairing their iPhones for years without such laws being in place. There is no "right to repair". It\'s just another case of r/technology completely overblowing a situation regarding Apple. You just fell for a buzz-phrase given to a proposed law in a select few US states.\n\nTry disassembling a Galaxy S, Google Pixel, LG G/V, Moto Z, HTC, or almost any other manufacturer\'s flagship phone without a heat gun and tell me how far you get.', "I thought we're talking about a device that wasn't designed to have the batteries to be easily replaced.", 'I’m not saying they are making piles of money here, it’s a pretty affordable service and I’ll definitely use it for my 6s. That being said, they certainly aren’t losing money doing it if anything they are breaking even and it is a little frustrating that they are just going to get away with misleading so many people for profit. ', "I'm sure the 71% profit margin they made on the iPhone 6s covers the battery replacement, even before charging their customers that $29 fee.\n\nhttp://time.com/3426087/apple-iphone-6-cost/\n\nNot to mention, this is a manufacturing defect.  Batteries at 80% original capacity should not be causing random shutdowns...", "Name one device other than the iPhone that randomly shuts down with a battery as high as 80% capacity.  \n\nI'll wait...", "WHY CAN'T IT BE, SERIOUSLY! Is there some magical space added when you add a replaceble battery? Please explain your theory. ", "It doesn't have to be big ass.\n\nCarrying around a loose unprotected battery is pretty damn silly. I wouldn't do it, and if you're putting it in some sort of protective case ... well, then you've practically got a powerbank.\n\nYou're right though. I must be one of the few persons to own more than 1 gadget with a battery - who on earth would need to charge other units? Crazy people ....", 'Oh 15%... well that kind of makes sense... I thought you meant like below 50% or something. That’s totally reasonable.', 'That last point is only dropbox though. Google photos definitely allows you to do just that.', "Well then, it seems that all these gadgets are being produced for nobody. The billion (trillion?) dollar tech gadget industry is all lies ... Or the reality is that people actually use those gadgets.\n\nI don't own all of those things I mentioned, and I don't use them that often - but when I do I sure as hell don't want them to run out of power.\n\nYou might not have the need for a single extra gadget other than your phone, but plenty of other people do, otherwise those gadgets wouldn't exist to the degree they do.\n\nI forgot to mention digital cameras, DSLRs, Polaroids, etc, all of which use batteries too.\n\n>very few laptops have USB-C ports for charging and very few power banks are large enough to even charge them.\n\nNot that few, and almost all of Apples actually do.\n\nWhat you're saying about capacity is absolute BS. Most of Apples laptops have a battery around 5.000 mAh, meaning a small 5.000 mAh would double your Macbook pro battery life (from 10 to 20 hours of average usage)\n\nIf you have a 10-15k mAh pack you're talking literal days of battery life.\n\nAnd it's not just Macbooks. The Dell XPS, the Lenovo X series ... these batteries hover around the 5-7k mAh range, and the new Dell XPS 13 offers 17 hours of actual usage. A 15k mAh battery pack would literally give you a full work week of battery life.", ">How can people even think that the S5 is even close to the waterproofing sealed phones like the S8 have?\n\nA better question is who gives a shit.\n\nCan i drop the phone in the sink and not have it die y/n\n\nIf y, it's good enough. If you want a phone that works in the mariana trench go ahead and buy something you need an engineering degree to get into.", 'I tape mine to the roof of my car, drive through a hail storm to take it through a car wash.', "What, I was the one having the discussion, you're the one trying to add to it..? Also: you didn't link shit, so a wiki article is infinite times more useful.\n\nThe point being discussed us whether the certification would cover the scenario of use in a shower, not whether the device would actually be suited for use in a shower in REAL LIFE. Get the discussion topic straight before coming in here trying to make your point, man.", "You brought up an argument that 2 decades ago it would handle far more. You know OSs are more complex then use that argument? It's a completely illogical comparison regardless of programmers being wasteful or not simply due to how much the landscape has changed since then.\n\nAnd I think you're vastly overestimating how wasteful they are and how much that wastefulness affects our devices, not to mention the issue discussed above falls into an extreme case of lack of RAM and shouldn't happen regularly. Could our phones be faster if everything was built natively, or running on a lower level language or developed with extra care for the resources available? Sure, but then we could argue that OSs would be inferior than what we have in terms of features.", 'They were both flagships. The 2 and the 3. Both were garbage and beyond slow and unusable within 6 months. ', 'Maybe! From experience w friends from Spain and Britain it seems to not be enforced to the same extent ', 'Did you or your family every try replacing the batteries in those phones? Or was that even on your radar at the time?', "At 80% capacity, a phone should not randomly shut down.  This is a manufacturing defect being disguised as a battery issue.\n\nIt was no coincidence Apple just magically decided the AppleCare battery replacement program would cover phones with 80% of life in 2015 when the iPhone 6 began randomly shutting down.\n\nhttps://www.macrumors.com/2015/06/29/applecare-mac-batteries-80-percent/\n\nThe comments on this article show this kind of behavior from Apple is nothing new.  It's also funny to read some of the posters defending Apple now that we know what we do.\n\nhttp://osxdaily.com/2014/06/09/iphone-randomly-shuts-off-fix/\n\nApple acknowledged the iPhone 6s shutdown issue but stated it *only affects devices within a limited serial number range that were manufactured between September and October 2015.*  \nhttps://www.apple.com/support/iphone6s-unexpectedshutdown/\n\nLest anyone forgets, the iPhone 6s was released September 25, 2015 and Apple sold over 13 million of them in the first 3 days after release.\n\nhttps://9to5mac.com/2015/09/28/iphone-6s-opening-weekend-sales-record/\nhttps://www.apple.com/support/iphone6s-unexpectedshutdown/\n\nRather than replace 13 million iPhones, Apple stated it was a limited issue, and silently replaced any battery with 80% or less life remaining for AppleCare subscribers, when previously they would only replace batteries with 50% or less life remaining.  Suddenly, Apple releases the iPhone 8 and iPhone X, and the latest iOS update ninja underclocks the processors of ANY iPhone 6 or 6S with batteries under 80% life, even those that experienced no shutdown issues whatsoever before that update.  Now those phones went from being absolutely snappy to being absolute turds (think an iPhone 3GS with the latest iOS, for all intents and purposes).  ", 'https://www.macrumors.com/2018/01/05/apple-faces-23-lawsuits-for-iphone-slowdowns/', 'I agree about communication, but that’s not what your post says.  Battery replacements on well out of warranty phones shouldn’t be free. 29 bucks for the battery and labor is fair. ', 'I guess no one cares when certain manufacturers like one plus get caught only running CPU’s at peak in benchmark apps and never anywhere else. ', "How is that a deflection?  It's the truth.  ", "enlighten me as to how Gross Margin doesn't factor in COGS", 'Then yeah, they owe you a new screen or a new phone. Apple’s policy is: if they break it, they fix it. Period. Talk to a manager and make sure you have any supporting evidence, if needed. Like a receipt or email confirmation of the repair. Repair notes would note if the screen was shattered before the repair. (So I’d argue to that point if you receive any pushback. It wasn’t noted bc it wasn’t broken.) Plus your receipt or email used to buy the new phone. If you still have the shattered phone, definitely bring that. If not, bring pictures of it.', "I think a lot of it is down to initial misunderstandings of how stuff works. Like they understood that something is water proof (though it's not), and changing that understanding takes a LOT of work and patience and usually isn't worth the effort by an employee of the company. \n\n\nSome of my favourite customers at AppleCare were those that I spent a lot of time on patiently explaining why they are wrong and managed to turn them around. I literally had dozens of customers who would just call me directly for new problems because they had grown to trust me because I gave them attention, helped them to understand something (which empowered them) and then gave them 100% of my effort when helping them. It's hard work though and not everyone's mind can be changed nor can every employee spend this much time on individual customers.", "Because you need your phone fixed? I don't know what you mean by manually replacing something, we're talking about water damage.", "What are you talking about? \n\nHe said he doesn't want an iPhone not that the pixel is superior.\n\nHow would you feel if you found out that guy doesn't own a smart phone at all? \n\nWhat would that make your comment?\n\n", "No, they just sent me a brand new Pixel XL when my Nexus 6P battery died a couple months ago. Google's support is fantastic", "It makes perfect sense.  They have a rabid fanbase devoted to them pretty much no matter what they do.  Slowing down old phones can force them to upgrade based purely on brand loyalty.  Apple's whole base is structured around brand loyalty", 'If it was just for "engineering reasons" why didn\'t they just tell everyone all along?  Oh, wait a tick...\n\nSheesh, just how gullible are you, anyway?  :)', 'So "greedy, corrupt, rapacious, and selfish"=smart in your dictionary?  \n\nHow sad.', ">Samsung had NFC first, water-resistant phones for 3 generations before apple had, multitasking, drop down notifications, wireless charging, wireless syncing, opening apps from the lock screen. AND MOST IMPORTANT OF ALL I CAN ADD STORAGE(things is the #1 reason i would never even think of using an iPhone or iPad for my own personal use.) Some of those are attributed to Android obviously but since the Galaxy usually spearheads the new Android features i included them.\n\n>You sound like an apple fanboy/girl so i do not want to keep this bickering going. As I stated earlier, I do not hate apple. I really only buy macs. I just think now there are better alternatives to their mobile products. To actually help your argument, you are right, there was a time where they had the superior product(the original point wasn't about being inferior..just that they withheld tech) but that was a narrow window and now they are relying on their core users who will buy apple regardless because it's apple and the older age demographic who want a simplified user interface.\n\nKeep in mind, I only really started arguing with you when you started making completely false claims about the pre-iPad tablet market. Given that you no longer seem to be defending any of those claims, I'd agree that we can call it a day. But just because why not:\n\n>Samsung had NFC first\n\nTrue, but that wasn't really very recent, and like with most new technology, Apple waited until they had a practical application for it (Apple Pay) instead of just throwing it in there so people can bump phones or whatever (does anyone actually do that?).\n\n>water-resistant phones for 3 generations before apple had\n\nTrue, although a lot of testing showed that Apple's products were fairly water and dust resistant long before they advertised them as such.\n\n>multitasking\n\nNow that's going back a ways. Arguably, iOS still doesn't have multitasking.\n\n>drop down notifications, wireless charging, wireless syncing, opening apps from the lock screen.\n\nNofifications have been around for a while now on both, and if you meant syncing to a computer I'm pretty sure iTunes has been able to wireless sync for a long time (not that anyone really uses it).\n\n>AND MOST IMPORTANT OF ALL I CAN ADD STORAGE(things is the #1 reason i would never even think of using an iPhone or iPad for my own personal use.) Some of those are attributed to Android obviously but since the Galaxy usually spearheads the new Android features i included them.\n\nLots of other phone manufacturers also don't have MicroSD card slots. Google never puts them in their phone either, and has done little to support the functionality in the OS. Honestly unless you're storing tons of media on your phone, I don't see a need for this for the vast majority of users. Most cards aren't fast enough to actually store apps on them, and I think Android only started allowing you to do so on the faster cards recently.\n\nThe day you can put a MicroSD card in and not have to manually manage what files are getting stored where, with no impact on performance compared to the native storage, will be the day I consider it a legit feature. I haven't seen that point reached yet.", ' You mean repairing apple and  to get slapped with error 53 right? How about "repair" it at apple store through buying a new one?  ', 'Fortunately Apple is offering to replace them, like it says in the title.', "I don't think they mislead anyone. The chemistry behind LiPo batteries is well known and completely up for public scrutiny. The type and rating of Apple's batteries are publicly disclosed.\n\nTheir battery management scheme is proprietary. Might as well get mad at Toyota because they don't publish alternate ECU firmwares that would increase fuel efficiency, or increase power.", "They made 71% profit for every iPhone 6 they sold and they're closing in on the $1 trillion dollar mark for net worth.  I'd say they're making piles of money, even with these battery replacements.  And paying the Apple Geniuses overtime is a marketing expense in this instance...", "From your article:\n\n>The figures don’t give a complete picture of the costs that go into the iPhone. Apple also spends money on research and development, software, shipping, marketing, licensing and other costs. But even with all expenses included, Apple’s margins are huge. The company had gross margins of 39.4% in the most recent fiscal quarter, an improvement from 36.9% the year prior.\n\nStop being an ass and acting like a pile of parts is all that goes into a product. Stop acting like Apple is supposed to be a charity. Massive profit margins is what they are compelled to achieve.\n\nActually, you know what? I hope you're miserable with your phone. I hope you feel cheated. I hope you take cold sobbing showers over all this.", "You do realize it's not when the phone displays 80% charge, right? It's when the battery reaches 80% of factory durability.\n\nI'm not sure of the exact number of when other devices start shutting down. Many have said that Apple was too aggressive in throttling it at 80%.\n\nI'm not sure if phones shut down at 80%, or if that's just where Apple throttles them. It could be 75% or 70%.\n\nDo you have the answer?", "Reasonable, and I get why they do it, but it's the sorta thing sometimes using a charger doesn't get me back above fifteen for a few minutes or so. \n\nOn older phones I had a couple apps that would drain battery faster than a wall could charge it. That's probably indication the whole battery needs replacing though. ", 'OK well my point stands. Restricting usage due to battery level is a thing that happens. Being able to immediately swap out a battery would solve that issue. ', "Jesus dude, relax. Just because people own and use these gadgets doesn't mean they need a power bank.\n\nI'm certainly not seeing people use power banks for anything but their smart phone in daily life. If you do, that is great.", "I'm not gonna bother responding to the first paragraph, you're not making any new points, just repeating points you've already made. If you want a reply to this, just read my last reply.\n\n>And I think you're vastly overestimating how wasteful they are and how much that wastefulness affects our devices\n\nI think you're vastly underestimating it. That's pretty much the crux here. I gave an example of when people default to using a more complicated csv reader, and it's more complicated just because it's a loop within a loop and therefore gets (almost) exponentially slower, just because sometimes the data set *might* be badly formatted. It would be much quicker to sort out the data and then use the faster reader, as that would be at most a polynomial time increase, but they don't because it's faster to program with the slower reader.\n\n>Could our phones be faster if everything was built natively, or running on a lower level language or developed with extra care for the resources available? Sure, but then we could argue that OSs would be inferior than what we have in terms of features.\n\nDoesn't take that much longer to make sure you're not wasting resources, just takes more thinking and requires more competence with programming. I wouldn't suggest using a lower level language, but frankly I'd argue that the OSs would be superior if Google, Windows and Apple could fucking agree on a language. But they refuse to.", "Now I'd be surprised by any phone that can run well after 6 months (depending on the users). Even iPhones should be resetted every once a while...", "But it's like why even try to conceal it ya know? What's wrong with being forthcoming about mistakes?\nLike tangentially Intel should know everything about it's chipset, then why not disclose the problem and roll out fixes at the same time? I just don't dig dishonesty, especially when it comes to tech giants.", "He said remind me not to buy an iPhone, the person I replied to said they don't need a reminder for that. So I let them know you can't replace a battery from google. You might want to read it again. I wouldn't feel any different. And if they didn't have a smart phone, how would they be saying OK google?", 'my 6p battery is going downhill fast in just the last month. Its still a great phone performance wise... so im debating on just replacing the battery or going ahead and getting the pixel. ', 'Your battery died, not degraded and if it was brand new, then it was under warranty. None of these phones are under warranty for Apple.', 'Nope that’s not what I’m saying at all. That’s just how you interpret things because of envy. ', "> Keep in mind, I only really started arguing with you when you started making completely false claims about the pre-iPad tablet market. Given that you no longer seem to be defending any of those claims, I'd agree that we can call it a day.\n\nNo, i still stand by what i said. A tablet market existed, it was as big as I originally remembered as I already said but there were tablets out at the time with more features than the iPad had. \n\n", "Nah, more like repairing multiple screens, and a broken charging port. Replacing the battery is super easy too. DOn't buy fake parts and you won't have anything to worry about.", "I'm happy with my phone.  My battery is sitting at 20% after 8 hours of non-stop talk time and being off the charger since 9 AM yesterday morning.\n\nThen again, it's a rooted Note II with ad blocker installed and changing the battery is as easy as popping off the back cover.  \n\nI've had it for 5 years now and enjoy not dropping $1000 every couple years on needless hardware upgrades.", "It takes 20 min to swap out the battery ... and it's something you need to do once every 2 years.\n\nI'm not sure why you'd want a less water & dust proof phone, with far more parts that are prone to error & damage, just to save 1,6 seconds of your day (on average)", '> I\'m not gonna bother responding to the first paragraph, you\'re not making any new points, just repeating points you\'ve already made. If you want a reply to this, just read my last reply.\n\nI reiterated my comment because I\'m still baffled that you stand by that argument when so much as changed in 2 decades, or even 1 decade.\n\n> I think you\'re vastly underestimating it. That\'s pretty much the crux here. I gave an example of when people default to using a more complicated csv reader...\n\nI\'m going to need more than that. Your example is not exactly practical or realistic when talking about OSs or possibly even most applications on our devices. It certainly doesn\'t really showcase what you mean by these types of things affecting our batteries and memory, much less when you argue that I\'m underestimating the wastefulness of resources.\n\nTo debate your example. "Take numpy.genfromtxt - people still use it to read csvs despite it taking orders of magnitude longer than pandas.read_csv just because it\'s better at reading badly formatted data." Performance is slower, but it as more functionality. So there\'s a difference and the slower one requires that extra performance in order to achieve it\'s functionality so it\'s not like people want to use slower one, there\'s a reason behind it and in this case it\'s that protection. Not only that a lot of things demand a level of performance in order to actually work(reading the csv with bad format protection requires that extra performance). \n\n> Doesn\'t take that much longer to make sure you\'re not wasting resources\n\nThere\'s a big difference between determining a wast of resources and optimizing to use less resources(or however you want to put it), specially since you\'re talking about OSs which are far more complex than your standard app.\n\nOptimization can take tons of time for just a slight performance improvement too so let\'s not ignore that. You make it seem as if it\'s a simple task and that the existing wastefulness is for no reason along with, imo, highly overestimating the actual wastefulness specially with that example. But let\'s agree to disagree.', 'No sarcasm intended; did replacing the batteries stop the shutdowns?', 'No, it degraded to an almost unusable state. It was a major problem with the Nexus 6P, and Google replaced the devices with new Pixels. In warranty or not. My phone was around 18 months old when I sent it back. You can look up plenty of news articles in relation to this ', "ROFL.\n\nGiven who I am, that's an even more ridiculous assumption than would be normal in an anonymous forum.  :)\n\nThanks for the laugh.", "Which tablets?\n\nIf you're talking about Windows ones, I hopefully already explained why I don't think that's really the same.\n\nIf you're talking about Android one, then kindly cite a source showing any Android tablet existed prior to the iPad.", 'You need a phone or a tablet to use google home.', "I believe you, don't need to look it up. So that's a hardware failure, not normal wear and tear though.", 'I said the Galaxy tab came out the same year as the iPad', "Yeah, but it was after the iPad. Not before. We've been over this.", 'Even if that was true, the average person isn’t going to download an emulator to setup a google home. You’re out your mind if you think that’s a normal solution.', 'o_o have a nice night ', 'You can use an Android phone with replaceable battery to setup your Google Home.', 'Because it was a hardware issue and a global one, not just normal degradation.', "I love how you guys keep arguing other points. I didn't say you can't. The person that replied to me said you can just use a google home. I said you need a phone to set that up, doesn't matter if battery swapable or not, then they argued an edge case after I mentioned that, then you argued about battery swapable phones. You're arguing for the sake of arguing.", 'It all started when you made a strawman argument about the Pixel not having replaceable battery, which is completely irrelevant.', "No, I didn't change my tune. You can't get a battery if the same thing happened as this entire iPhone thing. It has to completely shit the bed for Google to replace the entire phone. Big difference. I'm not saying Apple are saints, I'm saying people are quick to bash Apple, without looking at similar things. Go back and read what I wrote. No where do I change what I said. Google replaced those batteries because they shit the bed, not because they wanted to. They would have gotten sued, which is happening here, but because Apple is throttling. Nope. I admit when I'm wrong. Did it multiple times yesterday and days before. You can check my post history. And I never delete comments, I leave my mistakes up. Thanks. Learn to read.", 'Nope, it started when people said Google remind me not to buy an iPhone.', "Again you don't know how to read. They replace the entire phone because there's a huge issue with the battery, not a normal issue with battery degrading. My point is very simple. People can walk into an Apple store, Pay the stupid fee to get a new battery and their phone won't throttle anymore. If the same applied to a Pixel phone, you can't walk into a Google store, and get the battery swapped. It's really not that hard to get. Never changed my tune, I'm not closed minded, but being close/open minded has nothing to do with facts. Please tell me how you can walk into a google store and swap out the battery, because I sure don't know where you're doing this.", 'That’s the point, you can’t walk into a google store! Fuck you’re so slow!', 'Wait wait wait...they’re lithium! ', 'A battery health app/setting would be a nice feature for Apple to add. Don’t have a Mac so I rely on an app to estimate my battery health.', 'During the winter (usually it happens around 0C or 32F without windchill, even worse if it is -25C like today), my iPhone 6S would become extraordinarily slow and turn off within 5 minutes of using it outdoor. It literally goes from 100% to 50% within minutes then instantly shut down at around 35%. I carry an external battery pack to keep it alive. I went to Apple Store for diagnosis last week and they said the health is still 80%. Would replacing the battery from this program help or is it some physical restriction?', 'I\'m hoping to get clarification that this battery replacement is on demand and not subject to an Apple inspection/authorization. My wife and mother have no desire to upgrade from their 6s and nor should they, I want to get them each a new battery but I\'m concerned apple will run diagnostics and determine "everything is fine and no battery reacement necessary".', 'Only until December 2018. Starts late January for IPhone 6 and up.', "So I was pushed into upgrading my phone and getting rid of my old phone because it was being slowed down by them and now they're offering a $29 battery replacements for a phone that many of us got rid of... ", 'If I replace the battery, will my phone no longer be slowed down?', 'I’m so conflicted with this announcement. People using Geekbench are reporting slowdowns after 11 months of a Apple certified replacement battery. Apple determines whether or not your device is eligible for a replacement. Is an 11 month old battery eligible for a replacement? \n\nNow every year I’ll have to decide whether or not I want to pay for a battery replacement that I may not be eligible for, or purchase a new device. Yea this year batteries are $30, but the following year they’re $80+. I was perfectly happy with the original performance of my iPhone 6S, but thanks to iOS 10.2.1 onward, it’s half of what it was.\n\nAnd here’s where I’m conflicted. Would I rather have a phone that shuts down randomly at 20ish% that stays full speed, or a phone that’s half the speed of what I bought? I feel like the 6S I purchased may have lasted 4 years (smartphones have gotten to the point where they’re good enough), but now I’ll want to upgrade sooner. \n\nFinal question: how many years will Apple supply batteries to devices? Will I be able to get a 6S battery next year?', 'Two serious questions here.  If I had stopped updating my iOS version would it have not slowed my older phone?  Second one, how about my ipad2 battery?  ', "Stoked. I was going to replace my 6 battery this year but had a feeling that they'd do something to save face after the slowdown news broke. Rather have them do it for $30 than buy a fix it kit for $20.\n\nSuper duper shitty for users who learned the news then got the battery replaced right away though :(", 'iPads too I hope. There’s no mention of it that I’ve seen, but it’s clearly an issue there too. ', 'Better be £29 or less in the UK!', 'Carefully read the fine print before any fix so you don’t give up class action lawsuit remedy. \n', "In the apple tips page on battery life it specifically says to update to the latest IOS. In my experience this is absolutely false, each new IOS brings in new features which cannot be deleted and it burns through more battery. \n\nI kind of wish I'd left my iPad 2017 and iPhone SE, all purchased this year, on IOS 10. ", 'I just paid $80 for mine on my 6+ :( ', 'Was fully hoping for  - **You are charging it wrong!**', "How should I go about this if there isn't an official Apple store in my country? Would a licensed reseller also offer the lowered price or do they not have to?", "Was considering replacing my 6s+ battery before any of this became news.  Why?  Because my battery life is god awful.  Even $79 doesn't seem that bad when it will increase the longevity of a phone for a good 1.5-2 years.  Now that it will be $29 it's an absolute no-brainer. ", "If they kept the battery service at $29, they'd make a killing. ", 'Was gonna go out today to get it inspected. Guess it’s good I waited. ', 'We still need to have a conversation on whether it’s ok to half (or quarter) the performance of a device based on battery health / age. I know if my Nintendo Switch started getting half the frame rate in games, I’d be frustrated. Is it ok for a smart phone?', 'Should be zero dollar replacements for this shit.', 'The best response we could have hoped for really. Yes, Apple should have been more transparent about how power management and battery performance, but this is still a step in the right direction. ', 'Can we just note that they\'re still making iPhone users pay for the batteries though? \n\n"hey we screwed up but you\'re still paying for it."', 'I literally payed $90 for a battery replacement a week  ago ', "Apple should give us free battery's to make things right", 'Does this count for the 7 too?', 'apparently they wont touch my phone because the screen is cracked. ', 'Is this applicable worldwide? ', 'It’s weird I haven’t had a single problem with my SE', "So this includes the SE? I can bring it to my local Apple store? I'm down, if so. I was going to replace it myself, but this is much easier\n", "I feel this is a very good solution. My 6S could certainly use a new battery so I'll be taking advantage of this. Hopefully the software will let us know the actual battery health percent much like MacOS does. \n\nIts a shame it took this drama to get this level of transparency from Apple, but I suppose the whole mantra of the company is taking the technical jargon out of tech so I can kind of understand not wanting to disclose this information to the average person.", 'I literally just got my battery replaced Tuesday!! Wtf man. Hopefully they will offer me a credit or something. ', 'Fuck. I replaced my batter less then a month ago in my iphone 6. Bad timing. ', 'LOL $29 ?', 'But I don’t get it, if I replace my battery is my device supposed to work faster? Because on my iPhone 6 Plus 10.2 my device is so slow. But my battery capacity is high.\n\nMy instinct say that if I update to the latest iOS 11, it will be even slower. So I don’t know really see how battery helps', 'Lemme guess: you only get the deal if you sign away your right to sue or join a class action suit?', 'WHAT?! Why is this battery replacement only discounted for one year? \nSo people who buy a new iPhone 6s/7/8 today will start having slowdowns in 2019 or later and then have to pay the full price for their battery replacement! What a nice strategy.. ', "I'll take that $29 battery replacement along with the $800 I spent on the iPhone 7 plus, in addition to my old iPhone 6 plus back please thanks bye. ", 'Sorry if this is a dumb question, but does this mean that they will also update iOS so that it will no longer slow down phones? Or an ability to turn that off if you upgrade the battery? I didn’t see the iOS slowdown addresses. Or maybe I just missed it.', 'I turn on “reduce motion” my iPhone 5s. It’s a better temporary solution for me. 😔', 'Should be free', 'I refuse to pay $29 for their BS', "This is bullshit, if you've owned a thinkpad with lenovo power manager you see the mah whr cycles voltage wattage tem pcycle count etc.  \n\nI've got one docked most of the time and it's at 600 cycles and 50% of the original wh.  It runs the same, no slow downs, no sudden shutdowns, no gimmicks.  it just runs 1/2 the hours of a new battery but it functions up to speed.  It is also only 1 click and I can replace the battery.  I own every ipad and macbook, so I just use what I like, let's not make excuses for apple for bricking your device.   A 3 year old phone is plenty fine and fast for texts, calls, photos, browsing.  It's all I ever see most workers use.  ", 'So to fix apples issue instead of fixing it they charge you just 30. Not 80. Interesting. ', 'This might be a dumb question, but when the article says” iPhone 6 or later” I assume that means my 6s is excluded from that? Meaning iPhone 6 or “later” like the 5s, 5, etc.\n\nI’ve seen three different articles phrase it that way and it’s kind of a confusing way to phrase it. If that’s the case “iPhone 6 or older” makes more sense. ', 'Jeez the comments, you guys bitch for anything. A phone that slows down after years of using it. Which one doesn’t ? ', 'Guess who just bought an iFixit Replacement Battery Fix Kit for $42 this morning? And it has already shipped even...', 'Looks like there going to be a few people getting replacement batteries in january. i know ive got one device thats getting a new battery installed ', 'Will the battery replacement really improve the performance. I been so fed up with my phones performance Im hoping this solves it.', "So how do you know just how good your battery is?  I've seen that one app, but isn't it based on number of cycles?\n\nI saw a post about a new app in 2018 that will help with this.", 'Trying to look through this, anybody know if the 6s+ gets cheaper replacements ', 'Awesome, I will be getting a new battery for my iphone 6.  $29 is fine if it makes my phone last longer.  Would like to see it this really makes my phone work like new again.', 'Will they also replace mac batteries?', 'coconut battery is good', 'Fucking hell - I got an X last week and my mom got a 3rd Party replacement yesterday!!', 'Is this something that can be done at a Genius appointment?', 'is 40* faren too cold for a battery?  ', 'News pages are gonna keep reminding us of this for a whole month', 'I have a 4 years old IPhone 5s. Can I chamge the battery for $29 too?', 'I hope this will be offered to UK customers too. Both myself and my wife have an iPhone 6 with battery issues. ', 'do i read this correctly, that my gf‘s iphone 5s is not affected by this, hence not part of the $29 replacement? :-/', 'Specifically what date in January is “late January”?', "I have a 6s plus and i live in a EU country. What would i need to do în order to get the 29€ replacement battery as I don't have an oficial Apple store în my country.", 'Please be aware that you battery MUST be below 80% of its original capacity, and support test MUST flag the battery as a consumed battery.\nhttps://www.apple.com/batteries/service-and-recycling/\nIf it is not at the consumed stage you DO NOT qualify for a replacement battery at that time.', 'How do I check my iPhone 6s performance?', 'So those of us hanging onto a 5s like grim death are effed', "I'd challenge that the battery is the issue here. I have a 6S that was a part of that small batch of phones that had problematic batteries that came to light a little over a year ago. I had the battery replaced, by Apple, under-warranty on 12/19/2016. After the latest update I have also experienced severe battery drain.\n\nWhy is a new battery on a 6S experiencing this? ", 'My iPhone is only little more than 1 year old. Should I replace the battery while I can?', 'Looks like we’ll all be more vigilant with the health of our batteries from now on.', 'What If I got mine replaced St a third-party store? Can I still go to Apple? ', 'I’ve been so jaded by Apple lately. I’ve had an iPhone for 3 years but I just ordered a OnePlus 5T and am switching back to android. ', 'WTF Patch the old phones so they slow down anymore , Battery replacements seriously \n\nFucking Apple ', 'They should because they have no right of slowing my phone.', 'Veteran old iOS developer here. I did use all available iOS betas, iPhone 6 64GB. Everything was more or less fine with the last beta releases but some big changes with the Golden master suddenly turned everything (XCode included) in a lagged  experience.  They kept all the iPhone C stuff until the last day and most important the Machine learning + new file system process, that was the bomb. The phone was not 1 year old, nothing related to the battery, there are several points that lead to this problem and I do not think Apple was not aware about trying to run a cpu eater in such old devices.', 'Or they could fucking do it for free???', 'What about my iPhone 5?!', "I got a new battery for my Galaxy on amazon for 10 euro. Seems to me like you give guys love gifting money to a brand. A new battery to a company costs like 3 dollars. They're still getting 90% profit margin.", 'My iphone 6 (running iOS 10) is at 69% capacity according to an app I downloaded a few months ago. I hope that means I qualify for the $29 replacment. ', 'When are the r/iPhone mods gonna sticky this. This should be put up top for visibility through the year.', 'Just wondering, will this discount be only available in the US?', 'Are they going to remove the software that makes this happen?', 'I wish they would just let us revert to older iOS versions.', "for anyone who's gone through the process, what's the procedure like for undergoing this battery replacement?\n\ni imagine this might be the basic flow:\n- make an appointment\n- bring your phone in\n- pay $29 and leave your phone with them for hours/days?\n- when ready, pick up phone with new battery in it\n\nat no point are you required to source your own battery from elsewhere right? i have a friend who insists that this is the case", 'Wait, so I can get a $29 battery replacement for my iPhone 7?', "I hope everyone knows that the whole battery thing is BS to attempt to hide the truth which is, the throttling is intentional, it usually comes around new product launches, and it in no way is to help enhance customer experience and hardware longevity. \n\nIt's in the software and it's done to sell phones, very simple.\n\nI've noticed this crap for 4 years, glad to see it come to light. This is like a much lesser version of VW dieselgate and apple is handling it pretty well by blaming batteries.", '“I dont like apple because I can’t afford it and everyone should be able to afford the same things.” - people', 'This is pretty much the best they could’ve done, but why so late?', '30 dollars seems to be a really good price for this. good job apple!!', 'iPhone 6s batteries are like $10 on Amazon and eBay. They want to charge us $30, and then pretend like they\'re doing us a favor? They [designed their devices to become obsolete](https://www.theverge.com/circuitbreaker/2017/12/28/16826530/apple-sued-iphone-battery-slowdown-france-planned-obsolescence-illegal) in order to [cover up a defect](https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/iphone-users-to-sue-apple-for-covering-up-battery-defect-593mrl7zq), wake up people.\n\nMy iPhone will soon be reduced to being a Navionics+ chartplotter on my boat & kayak once I upgrade to a flagship Android phone. When basic stuff like "text selection" doesn\'t even work properly on an iPhone, why on earth would I want to put money into the device?!', 'Saving this link so I can get an actual apple battery, I got a replacement earlier this year but i think it’s not holding a charge like it should. ', 'Well that’s the least they could do I know it’s not gonna be 29 dollars forever', 'I\'m a bot, *bleep*, *bloop*. Someone has linked to this thread from another place on reddit:\n\n- [/r/airplaneenhancer] [Apple "apologises" for slowing down older iPhones with cheaper battery replacement for iPhone 6+](https://www.reddit.com/r/AirplaneEnhancer/comments/7mrpym/apple_apologises_for_slowing_down_older_iphones/)\n\n&nbsp;*^(If you follow any of the above links, please respect the rules of reddit and don\'t vote in the other threads.) ^\\([Info](/r/TotesMessenger) ^/ ^[Contact](/message/compose?to=/r/TotesMessenger))*', 'That is like a shot in the wound. "Bad battery? Okay 29 more dollars please." ', '"We\'re sorry, now pay us more money for our mistake."', "Lost my phone a month ago, the new one I got is the same model, the SE. Already noticing an immense difference in performance and battery life - especially compared to my old device pre 10.1, or whatever update tanked my battery life. \n\nI have literally have had the phone for 1.5 month, nothing else is wrong with it, it was a new phone so the battery should be fine, but none the less it's time for planned obsolescence. Oh and of course they don't offer the battery replacement for the cheapo model. Fuck. You. Apple. ", 'How about the $700 i spent to upgrade my phone because my 6 turned into an unusable slug.  ', 'I don’t want to be without my phone while it goes to Apple and back. How about sending me a free battery instead? ', 'It should be $29 less for their lies', 'The news kinda shit up, the iPhone slows down when battery drains or in certain temperature conditions, but most people omit the "battery drain part" and think Apple "purposely slow dơwn" that cause a lot of misunderstanding', 'Anybody have any idea the percentage of phones this has affected? I had my 6 for over 2 years from launch (meaning the throttling update came maybe 6 months before I upgraded) and never had any issues nor, to my knowledge, has the person I gifted it to.  Everyone is speaking as if every phone will definitely fail in and unexpectedly short amount of time and I strongly suspect that’s not at all the case.', 'Awesome! Glad to hear that they are making the situation better. ', '$29? hell of a clickbait wow, too good to be real.', 'How can I test if my iPhone has degraded performance? Is it the "circle of dots" that I see that closes all my apps and takes me to the lock screen?', 'It is still listed as £79 on their UK site...\nhttps://support.apple.com/en-gb/iphone/repair/battery-power', 'Sooooo, they addressed the problem.  Good.  ', 'https://www.macstories.net/news/apple-apologizes-for-poor-communication-about-iphone-throttling-and-reduces-battery-replacement-price/', 'Ifixit (seller of batteries) claims the $29 offer is only temporary. Anyone verify this? https://ifixit.org/blog/9491/apple-batterygate/', 'I am still very curious on who started this attack on Apple over the battery thing. The Verge? Business Insider? Or other trolls?', 'This is offensive.\n\nWas waiting for their response to make my final decision and now it’s decided.\n\nI will never use Apple again.\n\nNor will my costumers.', 'When you do a battery replacement through apple on a phone with ip67 do you lose ingress protection?', 'Scott’s Tots one of the best episodes of that series second to The Bachelor Party', '“Five minutes ahead of schedule... Right on schedule.”', 'Hey Mr. Cook, whatcha gonna do, whatcha gonna do against this class-action lawsuit!?', 'Fucking lol! Such a good a line🤣🤣🤣', '/r/CannotWatchScottsTots/', 'LMAO', 'r/outoftheloop can someone explain this joke to me?', 'Exactly!\n\nAll these suckers paying $29 for a new battery ...\n\nCostco sold me a bunch of pink lithium pills for only $10.  Just need to tape them together, and shove them in the back of my phone. ', 'Looks like *something* will be added into iOS to address this, going by this paragraph in [their letter](https://www.apple.com/iphone-battery-and-performance/):\n\n> Early in 2018, we will issue an iOS software update with new features that give users more visibility into the health of their iPhone’s battery, so they can see for themselves if its condition is affecting performance.', 'On Windows, iMazing is an amazing free solution to check battery health. Very detailed info. ', 'How Can I test my iPhone battery health on a Mac?', 'Try out the app lirium info lite, can look at all of that information in depth ', 'You can text the apple support in their chat support. They will exactly tell you ur health and cycles. Apps in the App Store are all crap!', 'What app?', 'How do you do this if you have a Mac? I was always curious to how the battery health is on my iphone and my mac.', 'Had the same issue with my 6S months after it was released. I went in and was told nothing was wrong, and to just hold it closer to my chest?! A year later they finally acknowledged the issue and offered a free battery replacement program. ', 'Closer you get to 0°c the batteries can’t perform the chemical reactions to produce power. Even if it’s brand new. Best bet is to keep it close to your core to keep warm. ', '>\tstill 80% \n\n80% for a lithium-ion battery means pretty much end of life, it’s very degraded at this point. Battery degradation isn’t linear. Replacing it would certainly help a lot, although all batteries suffer with extreme cold. ', 'That’s just a problem with lithium ion batteries in general. My daughter left her android fire in the car last night , it got to under 10F.\n\nI watched the battery go from 60% to 0% in seconds. They just can’t perform unless they are warm ', 'Shit im in Texas it was like a high 40 degrees yesterday. Was outside working on my truck for a few hours. Had my phone clipped to me went from 85% battery to shutting off in minutes when i tried to use the camera to take a quick video ', 'Curious - in my area it’s frequently that cold or colder over the winter. Is your phone out in the open when that happens? I’ve never had that issue but my phone is in my pocket at those temps like 99% of the time (headphones, Siri, etc.).', "Batteries at low temperature tend to lose their capacities quickly. Here in Québec it's currently -31C and my battery will drop from 100 to 25 in a couple of minutes. ", 'There was a recall on defective batteries last year. My 6S was doing the same thing until I found out I was eligible for a free replacement. I just upgraded but after I got by battery replaced, I didn’t have any problems. \n\nhttps://www.apple.com/support/iphone6s-unexpectedshutdown/', "https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT201678\n\n> Use iOS devices where the ambient temperature is between 0º and 35º C (32º to 95º F). Low- or high-temperature conditions might cause the device to change its behavior to regulate its temperature. **Using an iOS device in very cold conditions outside of its operating range might temporarily shorten battery life and could cause the device to turn off.**\n\nI discovered this myself recently, trying to take video outside in low teens temperature. I was at full charge when I went outside, but within minutes the phone shut off and when I restarted it said 10% battery. They don't like to be cold. ", 'Shouldn’t it work better when colder? Isn’t that how electronics work', 'My 6 did this all he time. Even when it was brand new.\n\nI believe it was a design flaw on those models. It seemed sure sensitive to even moderately cold days in the winter ', '80% is "end of life" for a battery.', 'That is a fair concern, but I think there is reassurance to be found in the wording of their statement. They mention specifically the reduction in an out-of-warranty battery replacement, which is available to anyone that wants one. ', "If the software update shows you're being throttled then I can't see how you wouldn't qualify for the discount.  That's the point.", 'I was actually also hoping to keep my 7 for many more years than I’m used to keeping an iPhone. So that replacement, if the price holds, would be very desirable. ', 'If the customer is willing to pay the battery price Ive never known a tech to refuse it', "This exactly. Went to Apple twice for my 6 randomly shutting down. Both times they told me it would be $80 to replace the battery. Ended up just getting an 8 because it also ran terribly on ios11. Why replace a battery on phone that doesn't run well...? Oh, because it would have fixed both issues. ", 'Wouldn’t you have gotten rid of it anyway if it had started randomly shutting down?', 'Me too - last week!  We’re not all tech people.  I assumed my phone was getting super shitty because it was old. I tried to keep as little on it as possible.   ', 'Might have just gotten a new battery if it was $29 instead of $79 instead of my mom and I upgrading. But not going to lie, this iPhone X is amazing. ', "Lmao, pushed into upgrading? So instead of just changing the battery for $80, you bought a completely new phone. Don't lie to yourself. You were looking for a reason to upgrade.", "Should have waited. It was obvious that Apple was going to release a statement and provide an appeasement service. This isn't anything new with them.", 'So what would you have wanted? A free iPhone? Never going to happen.', 'I mean you could of waited to see if apple would do anything to rectify the situation... \nsame as they did when the 6s had a battery recall. \nAt least use this as a learning experience that anytime there is a mass iPhone issue that’s widely reported on, apple will 9 times out of 10 respond to it in an appropriate manner and resolve the issue. \n\nThat’s what makes apple such a great company.\n\nDoes anyone honestly think Samsung would of done the same thing? \n\nThe nexus 6p had this same issue and they did nothing about it, that’s why tons of them have issues with the phone dying at 40% battery ', 'Why wouldn’t you just replace your battery? It costs maybe $20.', "Yes, assuming that's the reason", 'I had my battery replaced a few months ago on my 6 and my phone is definitely slow. It’s to the point where I’m considering buying an 8. Opening up the camera (native app or any other like Snapchat or Facebook) is slow enough that I don’t even bother unless it’s a posed photo because I will almost certainly miss the moment otherwise. Unlocking the screen is also annoyingly slow with the fingerprint reader. ', 'I qualified for the 6S recall and had a new battery in November 2016, my geek bench scores are half of the expected value for CPU performance. \n\n', 'A better question is, why is it that most android phones don’t experience these shut down issues', 'Apple has been in the battery game for a while. They just don’t let users look at the raw data. Those battery life apps are estimates from charge cycles and stated capacity. ', "I have a 6s plus running iOS 9.2. It runs like new. The battery doesn't last as long as new (17% wear) but I never had the problem of randomly shut down.\nI only want to update for Airpods, because it's a bummer to use it without all those features, but I value more the speed of my phone, so I didn't updated. ", 'If you have not updated, the device may randomly shutdown if the battery became very bad. iPads do have larger batteries than iPhones. I don’t think this is an issue for iPads. ', "Answer to 1 - correct. The updates caused the slowdown. If your battery wasn't randomly quitting on you (or maybe even if it was), you'd have been better off not updating.", 'I bought a kit and replaced the battery in my 6 for about $25.  It was SUPER simple to do and gives you a sense of pride and accomplishment...', "I'm a little bummed.  I just paid a guy $80 to replace the batteries on both my phone and my wife's phone.  I'm sure we got crappy off brand batteries, not official apple batteries.  I don't necessarily need another new battery, but I'm feeling like I should, just to take advantage of this apology pricing.\n\nI was seriously considering buying an iPhone X, and an iPhone 8 for my wife.  This whole processor slow down thing has me second guessing.\n\nHere's the thing, the battery is a nice scape goat, and it may even be partially true.  But it doesn't explain everything.  Here's some anecdotal observations that we noticed:\n\n* Both my wife and I have iPhone 6's.  Bought on the same day.  Same storage capacity\n* My wife upgraded to the new iOS.  I did not.\n* Her phone became dramatically slower on certain tasks.  Most noticeably, it takes like 4-5 seconds for the camera app to launch.  \n* On my non-updated phone, the camera app launches quickly.  Feels very snappy, by comparison.  \n* We both upgraded the batteries in our phones.  Her camera app launch time has improved, but it still lags behind my non-upgraded phone.\n\n  ", "All this news came out after I had already gotten my phone's battery replaced. It was somewhere $113.", "Same, my 6s only has about 220 charge cycles but hard to not take advantage at this price and extend its life even more. Phone is pretty snappy still as is so I'd imagine it should easily get me another year.", 'Yea but the $20-35 bucks if you’re savvy enough to do it can’t be beat because they don’t do the replacement in store, you’ll be without your device for a few days min if you drop it off and even longer if you mail it in. \n\nThe piece of mind and $29 is solid, they should just hand out 4S in otter boxes after swapping in your SIM card as a loaner.', 'I am right there with you. I was actually going to go tomorrow to get the battery in my 6+ replaced. So thankful that I saw the news about the price drop! Now I just have to be patient for another month or so and I can save $50 bucks. ', "I am fucking furious. I had to go to a third party store to get my battery replaced for nearly $50 and now they're offering an official $29 replacement. What the fuck. Fuck Apple, this will be the last time I buy anything from them", "I have an iPad 2 on 9.2.1 and it seems pretty fast and battery life is probably a bit worse but still insanely good I don't have Geekbench installed on it however so I don't have numbers to back this up :/ just speaking from a usability perspective I guess", "the ipads i've had have always had really good battery, despite their age. they aren't affected by the battery throttling.", 'Still £79 on the website :(', 'There will be no class action suit that pays anyone anything. ', 'Funny thing is I bought an iPhone SE in June this year and I have experienced none of the problems talked about with iOS 11', 'Along with the cheaper battery replacements. They need to let people downgrade to iOS 10. But that will never happen. ', 'I did, too. I am going to contact Apple on that.\n\nupdate: I spoke to Apple Customer Service and they said they are still deciding how to make it right for people who paid to replace the batteries.', "Same here.  Went to the Apple Store and they didn't know about it yet and they had to Google it.  Then they preceded to tell me that they cant issue a refund (partial) even when I swiped my card at their store and I'm withing their 14 day return/exchange policy dates.  I know its not a typical retail product like a case but I get the feeling that the people they advised to just go to a store and spend $80 for a new battery or spend $800 on a new similar phone will end up getting scewed by them waiting about a month to implement what they deem a PR/Technical issue today.  How can they take so long to implement a program to simply charge a certain price for a item they already have a SKU for.  Change the SKU to $29 and viola! That can be implemented immediately if not a couple days.  They are the richest company in the world!!!", 'Amen', 'Not sure about the batteries, but authorized service providers can set their own prices. Even if Apple provides the battery at no cost, 29 dollars isn’t much especially if it’s an iPhone 6s which takes a bit of extra time removing and applying new display adhesive.', "Exactly my plan with my 6S+. I was considering doing it next month just because I was tired of it going down to 1% (which I currently am on for the past 6 hours) and staying there. I get maybe 4 hours of use and then just worry most of the day with it sitting there. I've had my battery checked about 6 months ago and they said nothing was wrong. ", 'They make more money from new phone purchases ;)', "I'm not sure it'd be worth it from a labor/parts perspective at that point, it'd probably be a loss", 'So they can make profit? Those batteries cost them $5.', 'I would say yes it’s ok, but, the user needs to be informed this is happening. Which Apple failed to address. ', 'For a consumable battery?', 'It is, and always has been, if your phone is under warranty. This is an out of warranty repair, just like anything else. ', "Yeah.  And Honda should replace my tires for free because they are worn out and my car's traction is shit.", "It's just to prevent people from swarming Apple stores. Makes it actually possible for the people who really need a battery swap to get one.", "Completely agree. Being upfront about what they were doing & giving people an option would have been the best way to handle it. They were screwed either way though.\n\nEither they\n\nLet the phone run a full power & the battery either doesn't last or you get the random shutdowns & people would complain.\n\nOr \n\nThey did what they did.\n\nTransparency & a user option would have been better. A cheaper way to replace the battery would have been best. $30 is a lot easier to deal with than $80.", "Best? I was expecting them to extend battery warranty on affected devices. I mean they've done that multiple times before. Should be $0 if you would qualify for a warranty replacement anyways and $29 if you want it done proactively.", '[called it](https://www.reddit.com/r/iphone/comments/7ldua7/apple_being_sued_for_purposefully_slowing_down/drmq41o/)', 'L I T E R A L L Y ', 'Maybe they will refund you LITERALLY 😎😎', 'You probably could go back and maybe get a partial refund', 'Yes', 'Dont tout it everywhere. Jealousers gonna jeal', 'I think so:\n\n"This includes a feature for iPhone 6, iPhone 6 Plus, iPhone 6s, iPhone 6s Plus, and **iPhone SE** to dynamically manage the instantaneous performance peaks"\n', 'wondering this myself....  can’t find definitive answer anywhere whether or not the SE is included in the “deal”.  ', 'Is it 6S or later? Or just 6?', 'I feel like that’s part of it cause the average person hears “slows down phone” and stops there. ', 'Exactly my question. I got a new battery a few months ago after enduring random shut downs for months, and my 6 is definitely super slow on the latest iOS. ', 'Is your 6 plus slow and your battery capacity high because of this “feature”? You could be the exact person this affects considering the iPhone 6 is what, 3 years old at this point? That battery has definitely seen better days ', "Dude it's 80 bucks for a new battery without the discount. You can afford it. ", 'No, very likely no change in the slowdown as they stated that the want to prevent sudden shutdowns no matter what. With a bad battery it’s physically impossible to have a fast phone without shutdowns. That’s why it was done in the first place. ', 'It sounds like they aren’t removing the slow down, but are going to indicate if the slowing down is occurring. I hope they show the battery wear level. It’s something the phone can determine on its own because they can run it remotely when you’re at the Apple Store - but right now they don’t make it available to end users. ', 'Why?  Should Michelin replace my tires because they are worn out?', 'Good luck finding a deal like that anywhere else. It’s a replacement from the actual reliable company that installed these batteries in the first place. Most 3rd party battery replacements charge about the same', 'Neither will i. But for different reasons', 'They are fixing it in the way they can. Lithium batteries degrade over time. Apple can’t fix chemistry.', 'Incorrect, fortunately. Consider it iPhone 6 or newer. You’re good, man!', 'Reports of phones slowing down that are only ONE year old! In France Apple execs may go to prison over this https://www.thelocal.fr/20171228/french-lawsuit-launched-against-apple-for-alleged-crime-of-slowing-down-iphones', 'No they don\'t.  The OS could get more resource  intensive, but the hardware doesn\'t "slow down.". Except in this case when it\'s forced to slow down with no explanation until they are caught. Had apple not slowed them down then more people likely would have just replaced the battery when it stopped holding a charge. ', "The iPhone slows down when the battery is drained, if 1 years old iPhone slow down then there's must be some software problem and can be fixed\nThe guy above doesn't know anything and already conclude to prison", 'I did it a couple weeks ago, too.  It took forever to come (thanks to shitty UPS shipping).  Then battery replacement turned out to be harder than advertised.  Fuck!', 'I just replaced my wifes, moms and mine 2 weeks ago :(', 'I would just suggest running geekbench and seeing how your phone compares to the same version of iPhone but out of the box. Pretty easy to find results with google and youtube. ', 'My iPhone 7 is less than a year old but I will still probably get the battery replaced under this scheme at the end of 2018', 'Yes and no. It will still work but you won’t get as much capacity as it would at warmer temperatures ', 'Per Apple’s explanation, only iPhone 6 and newer see their speed throttled down when the battery gets old.\n\nIf your 5S is slow, that’s because it is slow. Changing the battery won’t make it better.', 'Huh... this is all written in black and white on Apple’s website.\n\nReplacements only start at the end of January, not only in Canada but across the world.\n\nOnly iPhone 6 and higher are eligible because only them have their speed throttled down when the battery gets old.', 'No, Apple won’t touch a phone with a third party battery.', 'What’re you on about? My old 6s actually got *faster* on iOS 10.', "Yeah, that's complete BS. Why do you think phones with newer batteries don't have the problem.\n\nGo eat your tinfoil hat...", '/s', 'I was on Android for a few years until last fall. They have a different timed obsolesce - software updates. Once the carriers and manufacturers stop releasing timely security updates (usually within 6 months of release) your phone is at risk of being insecure. At least with the battery problem you can get the battery replaced.\n\nThe solution to this is either user replaceable batteries or bigger batteries.', 'How about you take it to an Apple store because being an unusable slug is outside normal performance', 'It doesnt go to apple and back. They usually do it in store with an appointment in like an hour or so, but its been a while since ive gone', 'Go to an Apple store and they’ll replace it there. It’s been over a year but the last time I had one done it took roughly an hour or so once they’re ready to do it (sometimes they can start immediately, sometimes they set an appointment). ', '>for the past 10 years or w/e iphones been out\n\nThis only affects iPhone 6 and newer, and only on iOS 10.2.1 and newer. 10.2.1 was released 10 months ago, on January 23, 2017. This has not affected anybody for ten years, only 10 months. ', 'This is what my wife had to do. I tried to convince her to go Android before the last one. ', 'Run a benchmark.', 'They said by December 2018 worldwide :) \n\n\nedit: "late January and available worldwide through December 2018"\nhttps://www.apple.com/iphone-battery-and-performance/', '...read the article.\n\n>is offering anyone with an iPhone 6 or later a battery replacement for $29 **starting in late January** through December 2018 — a discount of $50 from the usual replacement cost.', 'No, the sue is kinda non-sense, what do you expected of your old grandpa to live like teenager today?', 'Yeah. Nobody talks about the 5S. Am I the only one who has to charge his 5S 2 times a day? And it’s slow as hell. My Benchmark results are way down from what you find online for a „standard“ 5S.', "Well I hope you won't use a smartphone inside a hot heavy costume.", 'Why?', '😂😂😂😂😂 alrighty then. ', 'They replace the seal after opening the phone ', 'Nope, second only to the Dinner Party. ', '/r/CantWatchScottsTots ', 'Meat, it’s what’s for dinner! ', 'r/cantwatchscottstots', 'It’s from The Office TV show (US)', "You have to wrap them in foil first. You're being downvoted because of your misinformation. ", 'Sorry, that’s the part of the statement I was referring to. I can see how my statement is a bit confusing 😅', 'Well that’s good I guess. It’s just crazy that they never had this since they’ve always had it on the Mac. Especially since iPhones are now pretty powerful machines. \n\nThey wanted to see how long they could keep this info out of the users hands and how long it would take people to notice. \n\n', 'These statistics used to be accessible through an API that they removed and access to do other apps couldn\'t see the battery statistics. Now they\'re putting it in as a "feature".', 'I hope they add a feature to choose whether you want performance or battery life, like Windows.', 'Yes!!! Finally! Thank you Apple for doing the right thing!', 'I’ll check it out. Thanks!', "You can also go into cmd and get it to generate a battery report, if you're lazy :P", '[Coconut Battery](http://www.coconut-flavour.com/coconutbattery/). I’ve never used it but heard it mentioned here on this sub quite a bit.', "It doesn't tell you cycles though", '[Battery Life](https://itunes.apple.com/us/app/battery-life-check-runtimes/id1080930585?mt=8). It’s pretty accurate. Maybe off by like 2-5%', '[Coconut Battery](http://www.coconut-flavour.com/coconutbattery/)', 'Does it completely resolve the issue after your replacement? I went 3 times during warranty period which they said it was perfectly normal. In winter I put the phone in the zip pocket on the chest but later I just use external battery pack. Though, in the summer it is still normal (at least it lasts a day).', 'Yeah mine did the same thing, but they told me mine wasn’t part of the effected batch for the battery replacement. Bunch of bullshit. If I didn’t hate Android so much I’d switch in a minute. ', "That's odd cause if I'm not mistaken the 6s specifically had a battery repair quality program, for certain models. ", 'Thanks. Then I will definitely replace it.', 'I accidentally left my iPhone 8 in the freezer for about 12 hours.  It works fine, but do you think I damaged it?', 'if 80% is nearing the end of life, then how close is 87% to end of life?', 'Android fire? ', "If it is in the pocket it doesn't happen. I sometimes have a nice 1 hour walk in the neighborhood with my AirPods and it works. It happens when I try to take a photo of the street or send a message. I can literally see the battery suddenly go down from 100% to 85% to 70%.", "Electronics, yes, because it minimises heat. Batteries, on the other hand, function on chemical reactions, which only work in a specific temperature range.\n\nLithium batteries don't work optimally below freezing, and may not work at all when it gets colder. Heat is also bad for them, and will shorten their usable life.", 'Hope the customer. Because mine phone is throttled yet passed their tests which only looks for design capacity from what I’m told. \n\nhttp://imgur.com/a/VfYUp\n\n', 'Sue Apple again and they will find a way to re-define it.\n\n', 'Agreed, I want to be optimistic this egg on Apple’s face means we can get batteries replaced on demand. But the wording in this statement isn’t clear on if their replacement requirements have been reduced. ', 'I would think the diagnostics still but we will have to see. Maybe Apple is fixing the diagnostics too', "I just went to a store and they ran a diagnostic on my phone, and it was something like 500 cycles being the limit. Mine was about 100 short of the limit, so they said they weren't allowed to replace it since they were just a authorized apple servicer, not apple themselves.", "If anyone hasn't commented yet, it seems to be based on an Apple Diagnostic, I work at a sub contracted apple support center. \n\nI've had a couple of calls on this, we're not allowed to say much outside the released article, if someone suspects their phone is having issues due to the battery, protocol I believe right now is to run a diagnostic, if it fails, proceed with service options (which are normal right now, until that late January time). \n\nSucks having to tell this basic stuff to customers, when I know people just want their stuff working. ", 'Once you are out of warranty you can always pay for a battery replacement. So if the phone is over 1 year, it’s at the customers discretion', 'With my 6S it took 3 attempts to get them to replace it even with me offering to pay. This was a couple months before the replacement program was announced. ', 'Ouch that’s a rock and a hard place situation there. But the most important thing to do is at least get that battery replaced. Explain the situation and hope the Apple tech you talk to understands. ', 'Your 6 would suck on ios11 regardless.  My iPad Air sucks on ios11, and the battery is fine.  1GB of RAM isn’t enough anymore.', "Don't feel bad, my 6S is buggy as shit since the latest big OS update and according to a utility app that I downloaded my CPU isn't being underclocked and my battery degradation is only about 20%.", "I doubt a new battery would fix the problem. Apple is saying they throttle as a response to battery degradation but in reality it's not true. My wife's phone is only 3-4 months old but since she upgraded the OS it's slow as shit. ", "Well, randomly shutting down would be a very tell-tale sign of a bad battery. A sluggish phone makes you think that it's just not powerful enough to run the latest iOS and apps with the performance you want. \n\nIn short, slowing the phones down masks the actual issue of a degraded battery- thus not allowing users to make an informed decision to upgrade vs replace the battery.", 'My 6s has been doing the random shut down thing lately. Would a battery replacement fix it? I never thought about it. ', 'Exactly and this only started in March 2017 with iOS 10.2.1. ', "I mean, its possible it got shitty cause of other reasons than your battery. You're not a 'tech people'", '$40 difference but went ahead and got the $999 phone? Well hey, at least you think it’s amazing. The X price is hard to swallow regardless. ', 'You fell right into their trap buddy', 'I upgraded my battery for $79 about two months ago or whenever the new phones had just come out. I hope I paid for it on my discover card because I’d like that $50 back. ', 'The phone was slowed down greatly, the battery was also terrible and taking both those things into factor, why would one not assume it was time for an upgrade, sure I could have got a new battery but that doesn’t necessarily mean my phones IOS would have been performing any better.', 'Anyway, it was still a pushing.', 'Until about a week ago there was no hint that slowness was battery related. I just assumed it was iOS and age. I didn’t get a new battery because the phone was slow so I figured I’d get an eight.  \n\nHad they told us I would have gotten a new battery as soon as I decided the 7 wasn’t of interest. ', 'That wait would have been over a year. As soon as I updated my 6 to iOS 10 my battery went from normal 7-10 use to 3 hours absolutely dead. ', 'Even Apple fans need to hold the company responsible for its failings. It makes no sense to blame the user for Apple’s mistake: not telling users when their phone starts throttling.', 'I would have been fine with my iPhone 6s lasting another year or two. I have an X now, didn’t want to upgrade, I do think the X is a great phone but it besides the struggling performance and terrible battery life of the 6s the phone was in great condition and I feel it should have last longer.', 'Because a phone being "sluggish" isn\'t a tell tale sign of a bad battery, and it actually points elsewhere. Whereas what they were "preventing" with the phone randomly turning off would be a clear cut sign of a bad battery and that it needs to be replaced. And I know I, for one, wouldn\'t spend $80+ on a replacement battery if it\'s not a definite solution. Plus you could\'ve went into stores and they\'d tell you that your battery is fine. ', "I did the same thing, changing the battery, didn't make any difference. ", 'My Nexus 5 (2013) and Moto X (2015) experienced plenty of shut down issues. Battery degradation is OS-agnostic.', "u/VMX explained it really well. Basically Samsung is using a new battery technology that reduces the rate at which they degrade over time. Down from 20% over two years to 5% over two years. \n\n> Starting with the Galaxy S8, Samsung is using a new battery technology they've developed which reduces battery degradation over 2 years from the previous 20% (like iPhones) to just **5%**. People who've had the S8 since launch had done their tests (using third party apps to analyse battery health) and the numbers do seem to check out if you extrapolate to 2 years.\n\n> This is obviously a much better solution because it pretty much eliminates the problem completely.\n\n> Also, I think people below saying iPhones require more power, etc. are clearly wrong.\n\n> If anything, Android phones usually suck more battery due to bigger and higher resolution screens, which is why they have bigger batteries, and in the end the camera flash is going to be just as demanding on an Android phone as it is on an iPhone.\n\n> Samsung simply has the edge over Apple when it comes to battery tech and, unfortunately for Apple, this has blown up the same year that Samsung has introduced this technology in commercial phones.\n\n> I assume Samsung will try to leverage it (PR, marketing, etc.) in the coming weeks.\n\n[Source](https://www.reddit.com/r/apple/comments/7mpmzo/comment/drvwgb0?st=JBRL32U0&sh=05f22eee) ", 'Because they design their phones with beefy batteries to begin with. Apple uses puny 1810-1960 mAh batteries which degrade much sooner.', 'They used to, until a couple years back...', "I don't need any of the new features. But I just trusted Apple and updated, and now my phone (6 Plus) is ultra-slow.", 'It has been reported on iPads, it’s just less widespread than the iPhones. Also, the phones seem to often be from sub-par batteries, whereas the iPad batteries have generally been good and as you mentioned are larger. But the software update with throttling still applies as far as I know.', 'Let’s hope, I had my replaced today at an Apple store', "It's probably not a big deal but for a device that would cost me an arm and a leg to replace if I fudge the display connector, I'll pay the $10 premium", 'Yeah, but did it unlock a new star card?', 'was it an OEM battery though? ', "I looked into that.  I like the idea of tinkering with stuff.  I replaced the motherboard on our macbook, and it was tons of fun.\n\nI read some walk thru's on iFixit.com, and I got scared because the screws are so small, and some of the ribbons and stuff are so flimsy.  ", '💰💰💰💰💰💰💰💰💰💰💰💰💰💰💰💰💰💰', '> Pride and accomplishment\n\nMuch like Battlefront...', '“sense of pride and accomplishment”\n\nI saw what you did there, EA', "> Most noticeably, it takes like 4-5 seconds for the camera app to launch.\n\nYes this. My wife's iPhone 6 takes 5 seconds for the camera app to load, and that only started when she upgraded to iOS 11.\n\nIt's making her want to switch to Android. Not everyone wants to be on the Apple forced upgrade cycle.", "The battery is definitely a scape goat. My wife's iPhone 6 is only a couple of months old and already slow as crap. The battery hasn't aged much so I wonder why apple throttled her speed? The phone became slow right after she upgraded the OS.\n\nApple is being pathetically stupid here. They think slowing down phones will force people to buy the new one but it's going to push more consumers away in the end since there's so much competition. They need to take their heads out of their asses and put an end to this. ", 'When testing it is important to eliminate variables.\n\nBack both phones up.\nRestore both phones to factory settings.\nStart both phones without logging in to iCloud.\n\nAre there still significant differences?', 'Don’t think your phone is serviceable anymore by Apple if you’ve replaced the battery with a non-OEM part. ', "Maybe they'll refund ya the difference if you went through apple", 'I mean... it’s kinda your fault for going third party. ', "For what it's worth the throttling wasn't added until iOS 10.2.1", "I just received an iPad 2. I upgraded it to 9.2.1 and it's pretty slow. Is there anything I can do to speed it up? For example, when I go to type something I can watch the letters being spelled out after typing a sentence. ", "I think it's more that the batteries are freaking huge in comparison to an iPhone so the wear and tear don't affect them as much. ", 'Yes. They . Are.', 'Price isn’t going to reflect to the new price until late January, according to Apple. It’ll most likely be £29.', '$.87', 'Neither did I. I did start noticing some slow downs over the last few months though. My battery capacity is only 80%, and CPU benchmark is half of what it should be. Hopefully I can get a replacement battery soon, I don’t want to give up this phone. ', 'Solid point. \n\nAnd the Apple Care / insurance they sell. ', 'Realistically, how much can a battery like that cost for a manufacturer? $5? And for a 5 minute replacement too. ', 'Huh? I mean doesn’t it normally cost like $90 but if I wait it’ll be only $30?', 'For lying to you for years', 'The iPhone 7 is barely slower than the 8 and X. Your brother just wanted an excuse to buy a new phone. ', 'If he’s upgrading from a 7 for slow downs that’s because he wants a new phone not because it’s slow. I’ve had my iPhone 6s as my primary phone before I got the X and even today i can’t notice the difference in speed on my 6s from the day it came out till now. These people saying they are upgrading because of the phone slowing down are blowing smoke out their ass. It’s literally unoticeable the difference in speed even if it is slowed down. Now if they were upgrading from a 4 I can see that. Sure my 4 is insanely slow to the point where opening apps is a pain. But one generation. Even 3 generations before is no reason to complain. ', 'Seriously, offering a free battery replacement is the  bare minimum they should be doing. The rest are things a good company does', 'Except they’re not saying there’s anything wrong with the battery so why would they refund people who replaced them before the reduction? EDIT: or do you mean refund the difference to those who replaced their battery recently due to this controversy? That I can get behind assuming it was replaced on the same “failure” criteria. \n\nAlso, I don’t believe they rolled out the throttling patch to the 7 yet so it wouldn’t have been that affecting your brother’s phone.', 'yeah. but apple is still apple. and he said it was the best response "we could have hoped for". there was never any hope they\'d do what you suggest ;)', 'Wouldn’t really say it’s a problem they cause. Reduced performance is better than random shutdowns. ', 'Jelly gonna jiggle ', '6 and later', 'How did you acquire your new battery?', 'Thanks. I guess my question is will the new battery not make a difference in terms of phone performance if iOS is still designed to automatically slow down older phones? Or is the slow down triggered by battery quality? So replacing the battery will cause the slowdown mechanism not to be triggered?', 'No they didn’t hide from people that the tires are worn out I mean I understand why they did it but they should have told people they were doing it ', 'I had an iPhone 6 and when it was cold that phone would shut down just off plug it in oh look 40% battery or 63 so times. Lots of people started to experience this on the 6/6s then it magically stopped. Now we know why. \n\nI’m sure my laptop battery in 3-4 years needs a replacement. \n\nOh now they doing me justice and it’s 30 not 80... when the phone couldn’t live a year. ', 'Oh sweet! I just assumed it was referring to older phones for whatever reason. Their phrasing makes sense now. Thanks!', 'It’s literally removing two screws and one cable? What’s hard?', 'Oh ok', 'It was fine until I installed ios 11 then it instantly turned to shit.  How was anyone supposed to know that they were slowing things down because of battery life, which i think is complete bullshit.  \n\n\nThis will probably be the last iphone i buy.  ', 'Oh okay that’s better ', 'That I can do.', 'Lol a what?', "Oh right, I scanned it and didn't clock that it hadn't started yet. I can't think of a reasonable explanation not to start it immediately...", "Are you sure? From what I read, the slowing down was for iPhone 6+ iirc..\n\nWhat are your benchmarks?\n\nEDIT: So it seems it might be related to OS, you might be right.. mine look fine despite only 80% capacity, but i'm on ios 9", 'what are your benchmarks and when did you get your 5s? if you got in 2013/4/5 (less so 2015) the shitty battery is understandable', 'Take it to an apple store and see what they say', '- They intentionally slowed down devices to encourage buying new ones.\n- They get caught and admit it with bs excuse\n- They double down on hiding behind bs excuse with acting like the martyr for only charging $30 to replace batteries.', 'Thats great, ty.\n', 'Then that "seal" means nothing. No security.\n\n', 'You took me by the hand and made me a man. ', 'SNIP SNAP SNIP SNAP SNIP SNAP', 'Good luck paying me back on your zero dollars a year salary plus benefits, babe!', 'Oaky afterbirth', '*And you’re hardly my first!*', "Here's a sneak peek of /r/CantWatchScottsTots using the [top posts](https://np.reddit.com/r/CantWatchScottsTots/top/?sort=top&t=all) of all time!\n\n\\#1: [If this subreddit gets 1000 subscribers I will pay every subscriber's college tuition.](https://np.reddit.com/r/CantWatchScottsTots/comments/6tj07g/if_this_subreddit_gets_1000_subscribers_i_will/)  \n\\#2: [SAVED BY NETFLIX](https://i.redd.it/f8bppvsl0fcz.jpg) | [0 comments](https://np.reddit.com/r/CantWatchScottsTots/comments/6q7hee/saved_by_netflix/)  \n\\#3: [went to kitchen to make dinner, came back and this is was I saw.](https://i.redd.it/b303t2zkd8dz.jpg) | [3 comments](https://np.reddit.com/r/CantWatchScottsTots/comments/6r10s1/went_to_kitchen_to_make_dinner_came_back_and_this/)\n\n----\n^^I'm ^^a ^^bot, ^^beep ^^boop ^^| ^^Downvote ^^to ^^remove ^^| [^^Contact ^^me](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose/?to=sneakpeekbot) ^^| [^^Info](https://np.reddit.com/r/sneakpeekbot/) ^^| [^^Opt-out](https://np.reddit.com/r/sneakpeekbot/comments/6l7i0m/blacklist/)", 'You-you probably have a boyfriend...in prison or something!', 'Haha, good tip. I’m not sure it’s people here downvoting me, though. \n\nThere’s a guy or more downvoting my history because I’m talking trash in Portland subreddit. \n\nI argue to feel better. He/she is downvoting my history to feel better. It’s a win win for everyone.', 'You just need *will*, not *would* :)', "It's not confusing, he's stupid. ", 'I don’t think they were trying to see how long they could hide information, I think it’s a byproduct of iOS design. They don’t expose files... Apps handle them internally, they don’t expose the amount of RAM... The system handles multitasking, and so on, naturally they don’t expose battery data... But now that people don’t like how the system manages it by itself they felt the need to expose the data. ', 'There is "low usage" mode. \n\nIssue addressed here is not about battery life (or capacity), its about ability to deliver peak voltage. Inability to deliver required voltage for high usage scenario may result in phone shutting down.', 'Random shutdowns due to battery degradation or performance reduction to prevent random shutdowns from occurring. Take your pick.', 'Tells you your exact battery health', "I had the 6s and faced the same issue. Last year apple acknowledged that the battery on some models was defective and if your phone was in the imei range listed on the website, you were eligible for a new battery. I found out I was eligible and my phone worked perfectly for another 13 months after. I also found out that once the phone concked off, if you put it inside your jacket close to a source of body heat, you could turn it on and use it after 5 minutes. Weirdest problem I've faced with my phone!", 'I had both my my wife’s and my phone’s battery included in the phones experiencing this problem a year or so ago. Apple just replaced our phones rather than just the battery. ', 'I got my phone replaced on my third visit. At that point the weather had gotten warmer. It got cold again when winter came and the new phone has the same issue. ', "Yes. I owned the 1st Gen iPhone, 3GS, and the 5 and had never had any battery issues in the cold. I'm from Chicago so you can imagine how frequently this happened. Got dangerous a few times out in the cold trying to catch an Uber knowing the phone was going to die within minutes of being outside. ", "Freezers are mostly a concern due to condensation, that is, water from the air transformed into liquid inside the phone due to the low temperature. But if that didn't happen, don't worry much. Batteries perform badly when cold, you might not even be able to properly turn on a device in negative temperatures, however once warmed back up it should have little to no damage. ", 'i just want to know how you managed to accidentally leave your phone in the freezer lmao', 'Kindle I’m assuming', 'The amazon kindle fire, my bad ', 'Note 7. ', 'Interesting..we’re having a cold snap here in the teens.  I haven’t had any issues but will experiment a bit when I’m walking around out of curiosity.', 'You’re not trying to determine throttling with that app are you? Because like any modern CPU it downclocks itself substantially when it doesn’t need to be running at full speed. You need to run a proper benchmark like Geekbench and compare your results against known good results for your handset to determine if you’re actually getting throttled. ', 'Honestly, I doubt they’d replace on demand because that’s just giving away cheap batteries to all comers.  I’d bet they replace at that price based on whatever “battery failure criteria” they currently have in place. Just a guess tho...', 'Just a heads up, Apple removed the battery API in ios 11, so any of the utility apps are simply guessing your battery life/health', 'If it’s 20% I would consider a replacement if they are this cheap, I would do anything above 15%', "If you mean the overall health is 80%, that's EOL for a lithium battery. Functional power delivery falls off super fast after 80%.", 'My 7 is laggy af and the battery is only degraded by 8%', 'I think 20% is the throttling threshold. ', "iOS makes older phones slower, that's a fact and it's always been, if you keep your phone for another year, consider not upgrading. I'm on 10.3.3 and it's nice to see my phone behaving well still. But I know that io 11 and a future 12 would definitely impact the performance ", "It seems Apple's threshold in the software for throttling is a little too sensitive and is throttling phones whose batteries are fine enough. ", 'Maybe try the old “backup and restore”. The slowdown can happen because of a glitch that is eliminated this way. ', 'Wouldn’t a very bad battery life be an indicator of a bad battery?', 'So if any one of you had read the words “your iPhone 6, SE, etc. CAN smoothly run iOS 11” you wouldn’t have upgraded? Because I can find you quite a few instances of that here in this sub. ', 'That is covered for free by Apple.\nCheck here;\nhttps://www.apple.com/support/iphone6s-unexpectedshutdown/', 'True', 'It’s the same logic people use when for cars.  After a certain point, people draw the line and decide they don’t want to spend more money repairing an old car.  For some people, when a $1-2k repair pops up on a 15 year old car, they will decide to give up on it and go out and buy a new $30k car because they don’t like the thought of spending money on something that keeps breaking down, even if buying a new car is a worse financial decision.\n\nMy 6 plus was ~3 years old when it starting getting super slow and battery life plummeted.  Why waste time and sink $79 more into a 3 year old phone to get a new battery that *might* fix the problem when there’s a good chance something else on the phone will break a few months later (e.g, common issues such as the “touch disease”)?  \n\nBefore the recent news, I didn’t realize the slowness was probably 100% attributable to the battery, so I decided it was time for a new phone and bought the X.  However, if the cost to replace the battery had been only $29 all along, I might have reconsidered.\n\nPsychologically, $29 is a trivial amount, $79 is harder to swallow when you’re talking about an old phone with a resale value of maybe $150.\n', 'Yeah I mean the gulf between a $79 battery replacement & the cost of a new phone is huge. Not buying the "forced" upgrade reasons.', 'Yeah but who is paying for it full price in one payment? \n\nDoes nobody do the upgrade payment program around here?', 'Back for what? It’s been two months. They just now changed the price. No reason to expect a refund in the price difference. ', 'Ummmm but how else can I blame you and not apple 🤔 ', 'What did they say when you brought it in? I would have thought they would have just diagnosed and fixed assuming it was still under warranty - there’s no way they could excuse that behavior.', 'Although Apple is obv 100% in the wrong, I’m guessing that at about the battery wear where the phone would slow down, it would be time to get a new battery. Just track your battery use with Battery Life, which you can find on Cydia.', 'It solved the shutdown problem thankfully, but the rest of the phone is only getting slower. ', 'You can’t act like the OS doesn’t matter here. But yes it HAS happened on some android phones. Even so, that’s a separate issue than the un-notified throttling taking place here now. Point being is that it’s degradation is constant, the random shit downs are not exactly OS-agnostic.', 'Yup. I tried replacing the screen in my wife’s 5s a few years ago. When I was prying the screen away from the housing the suction cup slipped and I yanked the ribbon cable right off of the home button. ', 'I will say it was NOT an OEM battery and for the price of $29 for Apple to replace the the battery it’s totally worth the extra couple dollars.', "I know 4-5 seconds sounds like an insignificant amount of time.  How privileged am I that I can't wait four fracking seconds...\n\nBut man, when your kids are doing something cute, and you have two seconds to catch it, the moment is lost.", "Have her try to back up to iCloud and then restore from that backup.\n\nDid wonders for my 6.  Was awful before I tried that.  Now it's much faster ", ">\tMy wife's iPhone 6 is only a couple of months old and already slow as crap\n\nIt’s a three year old phone, it’s not going to be great on the latest OS regardless. If it’s a new phone with a new battery you won’t be being throttled at all, the phone just isn’t very fast compared to newer handsets, and so far iOS 11 has been a slow and buggy release for *everyone*. \n\nThere’s always a balance between software support and performance. If they abandoned support completely after two years like Android, people would give them shit. If they carried on software support but stripped out lots of features to keep it as fast as previous releases, people would give them shit. The option they go with is to support phones for many years and to include pretty much every feature that doesn’t rely on new hardware, with the downside that it doesn’t run as fast. And people give them shit. There’s no right answer here. ", 'I did, and i will have to find out, I highly doubt it though.', "Not in Canada. Here it's $99 plus tax.", 'Not really. They were Apple-certified & I would rather pay a one-time fee of $50 rather than subscribe to the shitty Apple pay-to-get-fixes program.', "Huh forgot about that haha well I haven't been having any battery problems if that helps? Maybe the larger battery means more charging cycles? I find it hard to believe the battery is in good shape though because it's been through a LOT of cycles ", "Absolutely nothing.  Had the same issue with iPad 3 and iOS 9.3.2.  I've pretty much tried every trick and nothing would help.\n\nThen I jailbroke my iPad and it allowed me to dual boot to iOS 6.  The iPad all of a sudden was as fast as the day I bought it.  Unfortunately there aren't many apps left that support iOS 6, so the downgrade ended up being pointless.", 'and you also don’t charge them as much in comparison to the iphone - i charge my ipad maybe once a week', "This is exactly it. Apple used batteries that were too small for iPhone so after 1 or 2 years they degraded to the point where there's an issue. Had Apple used batteries with just a bit more capacity things would be a lot differently.  \n\n", 'source ?', 'I hope apple releases an iPhone SE 2 or some sort of variant because i do not particularly like the bigger phones', 'Likely more than $5 on a Plus sized phone. Their repair techs make pretty good money also. $29 is certainly\na very slim margin for them. But, they are buying product loyalty- something they over-gambled with by sneaking this throttling out. So even if the replacement is at-cost it’s not like their company gets nothing from it.', "hm, perhaps, but I think apple is a bit more thorough with their replacement labor; you'd also need to account for getting checked in /more traffic to busy genius bar hours\n\nI don't think apple is really wanting for profits from the repair business, but you do make an interesting point :P", 'Yep. The guy above you is just an angry Apple hater. This response is one of the best things Apple could have done', 'I thought they only started doing this last year? And I’d say lying is a bit of an exaggeration.', 'If i remember correctly it’s only been 1 year since 10.2.1 came out, which is when this started... ', 'My 7 was just behaving horribly. I bought a X because the 7 didn’t feel like it did when it was new. I’m betting a new battery fixes it. I just thought the 7 couldn’t handle the load. I upgraded to a X, which I wouldn’t change anyway at this point, but you can’t pretend the speed of my current phone didn’t factor into the upgrade.', 'Nah the 7 is actually slow. Opening the widgets panel is a death sentence for at least 30 seconds and everything else feels choppy compared to my friends S8', 'I had my 6 for two years from launch (meaning the throttling came in maybe 6 months before I upgraded) with no issues at all nor has the person I gifted it to had any. Got my 7 at launch and no issues over a year in. People are speking as if every phone has a defect that will cause them to slow and fail prematurely. I don’t think that’s the case at all.', 'I’m impressed (in a bad way) by the people who actually need new batteries on their iPhone 7/7 Plus. Seriously what the hell are you people doing to blow through 500 cycles in 15 months???? GET OFF YOUR PHONES. ', 'If your battery meets the criteria for replacement and you’re still in warranty, it already is free. The charge has only ever applied to phones out of warranty. ', 'It is a problem apple caused.  They designed the iPhones with batteries that were too small. They degraded fast and now millions of people have to deal with having a slow phone or find an Apple Store.  \n\nApple very much created this issue. \n\n\n', 'You actually believe the lie ?', 'Maybe if they made replaceable batteries...', 'Through the apple store. I had to go twice to convince them I needed it, at first they told me it was a software problem and that I should factory reset the phone. Had to pay the $80 for it. ', 'No what is happening and probably will continue to happen is that IF the battery is bad, the cpu will be throttled. iOS can measure the health of the battery. There are even apps that show you that exact sensor reading, e.g. Battery Life. ', 'I’m just imagining someone walking into an Apple Store and plopping down an original iPhone lmao', "Then you have to pry the screen off, remove a bunch more screws  & cables.  All manageable until it comes to removing the gunk strips on the bottom of the battery. Only one came out cleanly on my phone.  If that happens you have to heat up the case  and carefully scrape underneath the battery, taking care not to damage it & cause a fire.  Then you have to put it back together.  It was a pain in the ass.\n\nIt's much more involved than undoing a couple screws and a cable, at least on the 6s.", "Well it's corroborated by the data from the guy who did the testing that brought this whole thing to light. ", 'They probably need time get in touch with suppliers to stock up on batteries.', '-They intentionally slowed down phones with degraded batteries to allow some functionality to continue in the phone\n-They apologized for not being more public and offered to replace batteries on any phone post 6 for $30, out of warranty, when it normally costs $80. ', 'Sorry, I don’t follow ', '*leans on desk rubbing neck, swaying*', '🔥', "*THAT'S WHAT SHE SAID!!*", 'Ah, I see my error. Thank you!', "Apple is minimalistic. They want the user to know exactly how much the user **needs** to know, nothing more. That's why iOS is usually easier to get into.", 'I’d rather random shutdowns, to be honest.', "It's an estimate. Apple removed a lot of battery info on ios11. None of the battery apps on iOS 11 are completely legit. ", 'The Genius at Apple Store checked for me but I am not eligible. I went there more than 3 times because the problem was so bad. For me I put into my armpit inside my jacket such that I could make an emergency phone call for somebody to pick me up. The phone was also extremely unresponsive and slow. And yes I think it took me 5 minutes to get it turn on, though I lost track of the time because it was so fucking cold.', 'Signs point to a faulty component not being the issue, then.', "I didn't have this issue on my 5 but I have this issue every winter for my 6S. I am the same with you that I am really afraid that I am out of help in the cold because the battery rapidly dies. I once put my phone to my armpit to warm up so that I could call somebody.", 'That’s good.  I didn’t even try to turn it on until it reached room temperature.  Your response definitely made me feel better', 'Too many dabs.  That’s butane hash oil (BHO).  It causes  me to do all sorts of stupid things. ', 'I’m not knocking you by any stretch for what you said or your thoughts on what you think a cold snap is considered. I legitimately find the differing values for what’s constituted as extremely cold by different people in different locales to be extremely interesting. \n\nI’m in the Midwest and our temps are forecasted to be -10 to -5°F each night for the next week or so. When I walked into work this morning when my car was reporting 3°F. I was GLAD and said internally, “Well at least the wind isn’t blowing today!” The reason is the closer it gets to (or below) 0°F, the more winds physically hurts when it hits exposed skin... the wind quite literally hurts your face.  ... at the same time we just attended the orientation for training for running the April marathon that starts next week, lasts for 16 weeks, and is at least a minimum of 1 outside running experience per week. I am coming to the sick realization that I actually PAID for training in this shit. What the fuck?\n\nIn contrast, Family of mine that live in Florida are losing their shit at ~40°F... to put this into perspective, they are complaining about the weather where they’re wearing thermals, sweatshirts, full winter jackets, etc. Meanwhile each year we won’t see 40° until May or June, and at that time we’ll be contemplating switching away from our bulky winter coats and turning them in for thinner spring ones. ', "It's ios11. It's terrible. I have a 7+ and had zero issues before ios11", "For sure, I really regret updating my phone. I've kept my iPad from doing the latest sw update and it still works great.", "Right, and I doubt that's a mistake by apple. ", "Yeah that could help but for sure it's apple's throttling that's the main cause. It's happened for literally everyone I know who's had an iPhone", 'I know it’s anecdotal, but my iPhone 7 runs just fine on the latest software ', "Yes- definitely. The problem is that, even if my iPhone has terrible battery life AND is sluggish (because Apple has slowed my device down because of that bad battery)- my conclusion would be that my phone is just not powerful enough to run the latest iOS/apps so it would be pointless to replace the battery. However, my phone may have only been sluggish because of throttling by Apple: replacing the battery could very well make it run *plenty* fast for my needs, but I would never know that because I would have no idea Apple was throttling performance. I've been under the assumption that, even with bad battery life, my phone was still able to run at 100% of it's original performance in terms of CPU/GPU speeds (which one would reasonably expect).", 'Have you not been following this entire situation? Do you not understand anything?', 'Not all of them are covered for free, only those manufacturer from August - Oct are covered ', 'Covered for free by Apple. Joke of the year', 'Not all. My 6s+ was doing that, so I contacted apple and apparently my serial number wasn\'t within the "manufactured by:" date to be available for the replacement. ', ">Psychologically, $29 is a trivial amount, $79 is harder to swallow when you’re talking about an old phone with a resale value of maybe $150.\n\nThat is the same logic you would use on when to get rid of your old car.  If you car is only worth 2k and you are spending 2k a year to upkeep it, it hurts your net worth.  If you turn around and purchase a 30k used car instead, your net worth is still 30k and itsn't costing you 2k a year to upkeep it.  Yes, I'm ignoring depreciation of the used car.  But if you buy a car that holds its value well, you should be losing less than 2k a year in that.", 'I upgraded my 6 because it was slow as all hell. Nobody forced me to upgrade, but had I known that I could get 50% boost in processing power by replacing the battery, I would have held out for another year.', 'One payment is almost equal to the price of a battery replacement. Not far off.', 'Why would you? Just pay for it and be done with it.', 'Not on Reddit, apparently, it drives me nuts too. ', 'Discover has a price protection program up to 6 months after a purchase. ', 'I didn’t take it in. It was a two year old phone, what was I going to do?', "Would you rather have throttling, or would you rather have random shutdowns that damage/brick your hardware? (My Moto X Pure exhibited this behavior before it died. I'm sure that's happened to many iPhone 6 users before this firmware update.)", "I think you're just defending apple without being objective. I have an iPhone 7 that I got 3 months ago and I guarantee it will be throttled if I upgrade the OS. It's happened to me multiple times with apple. My 2.5 year old iPad it still running perfectly because I didn't upgrade the OS but my mom's started running like shit the second she updated. \n\nApple is not doing this to help consumers, they're doing it to force them to upgrade and everybody who isn't apple biased can see it. ", '"your phone is slow, you need to buy a new phone" is what lots of people here are getting from the apple store.  I\'d say that qualifies as lying', 'March 2017. So not even a year. ', 'How long has this happened? The "feature" was just added in 11.2.', "Uh, that's only a cycle a day.  Do you get more than a day out of your phone?", 'Guy with a $1000 iPhone X says “get off your phones”. Haha', 'No that’s what I’m saying, they should have been more transparent. I agree with you on that but wouldn’t say they are directly causing the problem. ', 'Did you watch the video tutorial? I agree the strips are bastards, but other than that it’s cake. And the phone can take a surprising amount of force. I tore the strips too, so I just pulled the battery off with pliers. Bent it in half but it never exploded!', 'Good point.', 'low power mode at all ?', 'If you believe their lies you need to read about Stockholm syndrome.', '**THAT ONE NIGHT**', 'They don’t make the batteries shit. Typical lithium polymer battery chemistry is only good for about 300-500 cycles, and also age naturally even when not in use. Unfortunately though for the energy density required to run a modern phone for a even half a day while keeping the weight a d size users expect there isn’t an affordable/particle alternative. This is also a major issue for the affordability of large scale storage system for grid applications. Even though their life is about longer at 5-10 yearsthe NPV just doesn’t quite line up yet ', "I'm not sure if it's Apple making their batteries shit as opposed to batteries just not keeping up with modern tech. The Nexus 6P had a plethora of battery issues as well, it's the one main criticism of the phone. \n\nYeah, it's common knowledge that Apple discourages people repairing their own devices. But it's not like the customer service to allow you to send your iPhone in, or go to an Apple Store if you have one nearby, is non-existent. ", 'Same numbers as computer diagnostic, is accurate', 'This is the [link](https://www.apple.com/support/iphone6s-unexpectedshutdown/) that I used for the lookup. Give it a shot, see if it works. I faced a similar situation. Landed back in the US after an international flight @12 am. It was snowy and freezing out, I did not have my winter coat as I was traveling to a very warm place (think 80s warm). My phone died when i was trying to hail an uber. Had to walk half a mile to take a taxi. ', 'Yeah, in my area of NJ the coldest it gets is maybe -5 to -10 (excluding windchill) and that’s rare (meaning once, briefly, every few years). It will probably get down closer to zero or maybe a bit below over the winter but these past few days are the first relatively cold weather we’ve had this year - in the past month it’s been cruising in the mid to low 40s and we even had a day or two in the 50s in the past 4-6 weeks.\n\nAnd I’ve heard that about Florida. One day I hope to be there in the winter to see it for myself.  In the 40s I’m usually still wearing a light, open jacket.\n\nGood luck on the marathon! I’ve never trained in weather as cold as yours but I’m confident with the right combination of layers/gear (and a little luck with the timing of your long runs) you can get through it with surprising comfort.', 'Oh my bad, I’m an idiot, I didn’t even notice there were multiple images ', 'Yeah iOS 11 was programmed by an ape smashing the keyboard with its head until it compiled', 'Ios11 is there new windows Vista lol', 'Mine is also just fine, no different than ios10 now that the bugs have been ironed out.', '>\tmy conclusion would be that my phone is just not powerful enough to run the latest iOS/apps so it would be pointless to replace the battery\n\nI’ve gotta say, this thought process is exactly what went through my mind before I bought my X. Don’t get me wrong, I’m an Apple fanboy and would’ve bought it anyway, but it definitely affected the timing of my purchase.\n\nMy 6 felt so hopelessly broken that it seemed silly to invest $79 into it. The funny thing is my wife’s 6 always seemed fine (she had a warranty replacement, so her battery was newer), but I just chalked it up to her maybe having fewer background tasks running or something.\n\nThis still feels like a cockup rather than a conspiracy, but I can’t imagine why they didn’t just throw up a dialog explaining what’s going on.', 'The iOS release notes did say “power management”. This is a very strong implication for cpu throttling. ', 'Technically yes, but I’ve seen ones in January-Feb covered when entering your serial number in there.', 'My iPhone 6s got replaced for free under that program haha as it scratched really badly on the shell of it and I bought it in early October 2015 ', 'Same with multiple friends, however after explaining the issue in detail, Apple covered their batteries under that program with an exception.', "I get that but I've also seen marked improvement just by installing the OS as new, so it doesn't surprise me the phone scales down based on power available (this is essentially what low power mode is). Where Apple messed up is not being transparent about it. \n\nI upgraded from the 6 to the 7 simply because AT&T gave me $650 in trade-in to upgrade as part of a deal. For me, if the battery was shot I'd at least try that plus setting up the phone as new before upgrading due to slowness.", 'Most carriers let you do payments in 2 years with no interest. Paying for it at once wouldn’t be the economically wise choicd', 'I am being objective though. Take *any* three year old phone running the latest OS (if you can find a three year old Android phone that runs Oreo) and it won’t be very fast, particularly compared to the OS it shipped with. \n\n>\t I have an iPhone 7 that I got 3 months ago and I guarantee it will be throttled if I upgrade the OS. \n\nYou guarantee wrong then. Out of curiosity I just ran Geekbench on my year old 7 Plus running iOS 11.2.1, which has 84% battery health and just under 400 cycles. The benchmark was ran with the battery half charged. No throttling whatsoever, the benchmark scores were identical to when brand new handsets were first tested running iOS 10.0 last September. \n\nYou seem to be completely misunderstanding the issue here. New software updates aren’t throttling new phones (they’re not even throttling old phones in most cases). Throttling only occurs in phones with batteries that can no longer supply enough voltage. \n\nIt’s not bias, it’s verifiable fact. ', "If someone called in before all this went down and said their phone was running slow, I'd check how much storage they have available, see if we have updates (I know, buts it's in the article and we follow those), the standard restore, set up as new, test. \n\nI wouldn't jump to buy a new phone, but I could see the store doing so, since they don't really do software troubleshooting, they're just there to sell and the techs in the back fix, or they forward you to us, AppleCare. \n\nOddly enough, I have a 6s jailbroken on 9.0.2, and have never had random shutdowns (aside from the springboard crashing due to tweaks), or slowed performance.\n\nSo I might buy that it just started with iOS 10. ", 'So “months” would be the correct statement xD', 'That’s what confuses me because i was having troubles way before, went to the Apple store several times but no love. Restored from iTunes no change. Likely mine is some other unknown problem I suppose but for $29 I’ll throw a new battery in just to see. ', 'That’s more than a cycles day. I am looking at the math thinking I’m a little off. \n\nI had a 7 Plus though. I got two days per charge. And I’m not a light user by any stretch. ', 'I only use one full charge a day... 500 cycles in a year is almost 2 full charges every single day. ', 'I sure did. ', "I'm still waiting for the mythical unicorn battery everyone with no manufacturing or engineering expertise seems to think exists that lasts forever and only needs charging once a week and never degrades in performance.", '*echoes* ONE NIGHT', "Someone in another thread said his battery was at 93% according to apple diagnostic, but the app said 97%. It's accurate to a degree, but not 100%. ", 'One of the things we like to do is get away for a few weeks in the winter, so we’ve been to Florida quite a few times over the past few years. Each time I ask my husband why the HELL don’t we live there? I realize they get cold weather bouts, but every time we’ve went there the coldest it’s been is 60 at night. The majority of the time is 80+ during the day. The statistics are available for sunshine comparisons - if we moved somewhere like Cape Coral, we’d have 100+ more days of full sunshine as well.  Crazy to think about not having grey skies the majority of the winter!\n\nThanks! We ran the turkey trot 5k this year. It was by far the coldest I’ve ran, and that was high 20 - low 30’s. I had a long sleeve wicking shirt, hoodie, pull over jacket, full face/neck cover, a pair of gloves, & sweatpants, and it was still cold. To say I’m nervous is an understatement! It’ll definitely be an adventure!\n\nDo you guys stay that warm bc of the ocean?', 'Vista at least bring some interesting features and cmplete redesign....', "Can't disagree enough that this terminology would indicate an all-around throttling of a phone. In fact, that wording seems to purposely *try* to obfuscate what they were actually doing. The performance of iPhones is a huge selling feature and one they heavily talk about- knowingly slowing phones down for any reason (even a good reason like this is) should be made very clear to the user. (for the reasons I mention in my previous comment)\n\nIf that terminology *were* as strong an implication as you're suggesting- this wouldn't be the issue that it now is. The fact that this caught literally everyone off guard- even in the tech world- tells you that the release note was not at all clear.", 'Suspicious lack of "I\'d recommend a new battery" which is supposedly the real fix', '15 months * 30.4 days/mo (average) = 456 days, so 500 cycles would be 1.09 cycles/day.\n\nI have a straight 6 and my wife has an SE.  We both have to charge our phones every day, but we also have shit cell reception (terrain).  Probably has something to do with it.', 'Stockholm syndrome is strong with this one.', 'I take it as like replacing tires on a car. You don’t sue the dealership for your tires wearing out in two years (i have honestly no idea how long tires are supposed to last, but i meant that as a shorter than normal time) when they went drag racing and doing burn outs and such. Nor do they sue when the tires wear out normally', 'You made eeeeverything alriiiiIIIIiight\n\n', 'You made everything alright.', 'We’re right across the Hudson River from NYC.  It’s actually a lot colder and windier when you go by the ocean - the much maligned Jersey Shore, the vast majority of which is completely unlike the TV show happily 😁. \n\nI think this is just a more temperate part of the country; if there’s some unique reason I’m not aware of it. One of the things I’ve always liked about this area is the change of seasons.  Unlike some I prefer the changes  (including winter) rather than the relatively steady state seasons you get in California, Florida, etc.  And winter here is relatively short - it’s starting to get cold now and will usually start warming up in the second half of March at the latest. I mean, I could use 2-4 weeks less winter since, as I’m sure you know, by the end you’re sick of it, but I don’t mind it enough to move slightly further south.', 'I also said before this whole thing went down, and it wouldn\'t have been intentional on my or any other advisors part, I agree in that it should have been stated long ago upon the initial update that they started to use this "fix".\n\nI\'m on the conspiratorial side, so you\'ll find I have no desire to protect any companies, I\'m sure there are much more grevious things going on besides this. ', 'Okay so my math was a little off. But supply and demand were not friends for the 7 release. You with your 6, I’d expect you to need a new battery and in fact be surprised if you didn’t. An SE is a tossup as it could have been purchased two years ago or could have been purchased yesterday. Depending, though, probably not surprising if she needs a new one after 16+ months. \n\nBut yes reception, use, etc factors in. Under no normal circumstances should someone with a 7 Plus need a new battery yet. A 6s Plus maybe (borderline, they ARE two years old now but the plus batteries last longer). \n\nThe older 6s won’t need new batteries since they just got new batteries. The newer ones should be getting there now. And unless you got an iPhone 7 on release day and constantly used 1.09 charges or more a day, you shouldn’t need one. \n\nI do retract and edit my prior statement. Those of you with an iphone 7 I am not horrified at you. But if you have a 7 Plus, I still am. ', "Not really.  I just think the average person has very little idea that the battery world hasn't kept pace with the technological world.  It's sad but that's the truth.  ", 'That’s awesome that you guys get a nicer / more temperate area of the map than your closer-to-the-coast brethren do. We’re kinda the same way with our location vs the rest of the state. We live in proximity to Lake Erie, so usually we’re warm till things freeze over in Jan. This year we’re unfortunately FAR ahead of the “bitter cold” time of the year by about a month, so that’s a bummer.\n\nI enjoy most seasons except the Jan/Feb months... Usually March still isn’t great, but April/May are usually pretty enjoyable. Spring is probably my favorite bc it’s like we return back from hibernation. The mass blooming is kinda awesome. \n\nAutumn to me is like nature’s reset button. It’s nice not to have to worry about bugs for a few months, or trimming/weeding.\n\nYou’re absolutely right. By the end of the cold snap, we’re sick as hell of wearing our winter gear everywhere we go. It’s mostly annoying to prophesies what exactly you should wear for the day. \n\n1. One pair of pants? Two? \n1. Gloves that are functional with user interfaces in cars / phones but colder, or gloves that are heavy and bulky, but significantly warmer? \n1. Hat? \n1. Thermals? \n1. Imitation down filled coat with questionable fill power that fits easily in car seat/seatbelt? \n1. Actual down filled coat with down filled insert and filled hood that doesn’t?\n\nIt’s a sick thing to do, but I sometimes look at Alaskan temperatures to make me feel a bit better about our temps. It’s one of those, “Hey we’re not that cold at least!”', "I'm horrified at people with 7 Plus's too, but that's because apparently their pockets are the size of backpacks ;)", 'I’m a woman and fit mine in my pocket just fine. But I’m fat, apparently fat women get bigger pockets. ', "Statement from Apple:\n\n*We have fixed the Group FaceTime security bug on Apple's servers and we will issue a software update to re-enable the feature for users next week. We thank the Thompson family for reporting the bug. We sincerely apologize to our customers who were affected and all who were concerned about this security issue. We appreciate everyone's patience as we complete this process.*\n\n*We want to assure our customers that as soon as our engineering team became aware of the details necessary to reproduce the bug, they quickly disabled Group FaceTime and began work on the fix. We are committed to improving the process by which we receive and escalate these reports, in order to get them to the right people as fast as possible. We take the security of our products extremely seriously and we are committed to continuing to earn the trust Apple customers place in us.*\n\n\n\nSo just to be clear, this bug cannot currently be exploited as Group FaceTime has been disabled on the server end.  The software update will just be to re-enable the feature.\n\n\n\nEDIT:  It's impressive how bad the media is about reporting this information.  Take a look at this Verge article: [https://www.theverge.com/2019/2/1/18206721/facetime-bug-fix-delayed-apple-ios-group-chat-eavesdrop](https://www.theverge.com/2019/2/1/18206721/facetime-bug-fix-delayed-apple-ios-group-chat-eavesdrop).  They  don't even mention that the bug cannot be exploited, and they cherry picked lines from Apple's statement to omit the information.  They all know better, just framing things in a negative light for the clicks.\n\nEDIT 2: The Verge updated the story to be more accurate, without giving any evidence of the correction.", "Still ridiculous Apple Support asked a non-tech-savvy general user to create a developer account to file a radar (which then got marked as duplicate… classic radar... surprised they didn't get asked to attach a system diagnosis dump to be honest 🙃)", 'So when they release a fix and turn group FaceTime back on, could you still do the exploit to people running older software?', 'I wish that iOS apps are “updateable” per app. \n\nJust update FaceTime app now, no need to release 12.1.4 iOS with patch for it. \n\nOr maybe that’s not how it works (for 🍎). ', 'Damn can’t believe it’s permanently being disabled for 12.1.3 and below.', 'This isn\'t "just a bug". This is proof that the microphone can be remotely activated by Apple without your knowledge or consent. Patching the server will fix this one exploit, but the remote activation capability still exists.\n\nThe camera and microphone should not be remote activated *without explicit consent from the user*. That consent could be provided as a preference (defaulting to NO) in the app requesting unattended access to the camera/mic.\n\nThis is a major breach of trust and poor security policy management of something as sensitive as the your camera and microphone.', 'Sweet, an apology and a quarter will get me a nice hot cup of jack shit.', 'ITT: half the people believe this is an end of the world scenario and Apple has just killed their mother, and the other half is defending Apple like their mother is being tried for murder innocent\n\n', 'Is anybody else disappointed the stock price didn’t take a hit on this news? ', 'but how is it an invasion? the bug only "works" when you make a call and then add yourself.  I get it... that lady was mad that they told her to get a dev account and report the bug. they pay bounties for these kinds of things, don\'t they?', 'I’m not being petty. I love Apple. I think it’s dumb for anyone to expect apple to be perfect. EVERYTHING has bugs. Apple has really been put through the ringer for dumb shit lately. But as mentioned by many, google and Facebook are actively collecting, selling, and leveraging its customers data and not one word in the mainstream. ', 'There’s a lot of people (Including me) that are wondering, why all of this is blowing out of proportion, and the only answer is:\n\nBecause it’s Apple.\n\nApple sells, and hating Apple gives you Karma here, or make the haters feel cool and smart. \n\nSi, just let them be. Is the best you can do', 'Can we just hurry up and enable the service again, you ruined my group calls while playing Mario Kart with my friends...', 'Apple’s quality is really going downhill. ', "Love the folks that are crying about Apple needing to be better at testing and QA. They don't seem to understand software development at all, nor do they realize that thousands of developers and public beta testers had this same software (likely with this bug for some time) and none of them found it. \n\nIt may be a security issue, but it was one that tens of thousands (hundreds of thousands likely) were unable to find until now. Stop acting like this was something anyone could have stumbled upon.", "I'm still not understanding the amount of outrage / publicity this issue is getting in the news... Is it a slow news week or something?\n\nWHILE your phone is ringing from a Facetime call, the caller has to swipe up on their phone and tap a few more times to make this happen. During that time, wouldn't most people have either hung up or answered the call anyway, making the exploit somewhat pointless?\n\n", 'Can We Not Talk Like This In Titles Thank You', 'The goodwill that their apology has brought will probably be canceled by the delay in their fix.', '[This aged well](https://i.imgflip.com/2sqch9.jpg)', 'Well yeah, neglect is a thing ', 'Apple needs to be more upfront with their customers.', "Apple doesn't have a timeline. Where is AirPower?\n\n", 'This is single-handedly the worst security flaw in a phone ever. Just wow. ', "I'm surprised that they didn't blame China.", 'Stop hating. It’s fixed. Go get something to do', "Why is no one reporting or talking about how Apple didn't shut down the FaceTime services until hours after all the steps to reproduce were out on the internet and only stated they would fix it next week. They only shut it down because with the steps online people were abusing it for hours.", "ITT: Yes it'd delayed but remember. They fixed it eventually. Yes they should have caught it but keep this in mind; I spent a bunch of money with them and can't stand the thought of having wasted my money on a bunch of marketing material. This means that Apple gets yet another free pass.", "what a coincidence they chose to revoke Facebook's and Google's enterprice certificates just in time to draw media attention away from this", 'Okay, apology accepted. ', 'Duo and Facebook messenger do this, but they call it..... a “feature”. ', 'Who the fuck is multi FaceTimeing anyway? FaceTime is still cool?', 'The Verge is notorious for doing that', 'My favorite is the fact my news station is still talking about it without telling people it’s been disabled or there’s a fix coming. Just milking it and the family who found it ', 'Fuck Verge', 'Just look at the fat fucking piece of shit Lou on Unbox Therapy, made a whole clickbait video on the bug.\n\nDude is a fucking moron. ', "however there is a need for update on endpoint devices as well, and group facetime will be disabled for those who don't update\n\nhttps://www.reddit.com/r/jailbreak/comments/am43wq/news_group_facetime_will_remain_permanently/", '>\tas soon as our engineering team became aware of the details necessary to reproduce the bug, they quickly disabled Group FaceTime \n\nBut it was discovered a week prior to the outbreak by the Thompson?', 'This is all news about all topics. Google and FB get it the same way. There’s an overall tech backlash going on that’s only loosely based in fact. ', 'You should remove the verge link and make it where people have to manually copy pasta the address. Don’t give them the traffic.', 'The whole clicks mentality in media is sick. Disinformation gets more clicks. ', 'People need something to write about 🤷🏻\u200d♂️', ">EDIT: It's impressive how bad the media is about reporting this information. Take a look at this Verge article: https://www.theverge.com/2019/2/1/18206721/facetime-bug-fix-delayed-apple-ios-group-chat-eavesdrop. They don't even mention that the bug cannot be exploited, and they cherry picked lines from Apple's statement to omit the information. They all know better, just framing things in a negative light for the clicks.\n\nIt's clear from the first paragraph that the bug can't be exploited. It talks about how group facetime has been disabled.", 'The Scourge 😡', ">EDIT:  It's impressive how bad the media is about reporting this information\n\nLets all remember this the next time we read something about what some politician said or did. :-)", 'So...... "Here\'s a PR letter since our little stunt with Google and Facebook didn\'t work. Please continue to overpay in exchange for promises of hardware and software stability adn security that don\'t actually exist much beyond our marketing team\'s materials".\n\nF-Off Apple. You keep doing this shit. If I have to deal with lack of privacy or stability anyway, at least Microsoft and Google don\'t charge me insulting prices for the hardware and software.', 'How it was handled was a huge mistake on Apple’s part. ', 'Radar? Is that like an issue?', 'Wow didn’t know about that. Is there any good reading on that?', "It says the fix included a patch on Apple servers. The user doesn't need that change on their phone, which I suppose is necessary to reproduce the bug even if their don't update the phone .", '[Apple has now confirmed that Group FaceTime will be disabled permanently on 12.1.3 and earlier.](https://www.macrumors.com/2019/02/01/group-facetime-perm-disabled-ios-12-1-3-earlier/) You have to update to keep using it.', 'No, almost certainly the server will require that you’re using the patched software to connect or receive.  I don’t know the protocol, but it’s super likely the handshaking involves the software version. ', 'I’m currently on 12.1.1 and have no intentions of moving. If I need to I’ll just disable FaceTime ', 'Agree. I think google did this a few years ago. ', 'Doesn’t work that way, and anyone saying it should isn’t really thinking of the larger picture. If you have separate apps, then you have the problem of people using separate app version across separate iOS versions. This would be horrible for the user, and horrible for engineering. \n\nNative iOS apps often interact with other apps, like safari links in iMessage, or the effects in FaceTime. Decoupling these apps would be horrendous for iOS quality and stability. ', "That still doesn't guarantee the fix would be released any sooner.", 'That’s how Google used to do it too, same as apple, until they realized no carriers were updating. They HAD to split it off into app groups. Apple doesn’t have to do all that extra work. \n\nGoogle’s method sounds good because you get updates per app a week earlier, but it has created so much redundancy so as to basically make a running joke of it. \n\nGoogle’s alarm clock is a whole app on its own, but it doesn’t replace the one in the phone, just becomes the default when installed.  Just like every other part of the phone. ', 'Because money.', 'They can, and should, if the company is careless, negligent, etc. I have no reason to think that Apple was any of this. ', '> Can people seriously condemn companies for bugs in this kind of cases?\n\nCan? Of course. Both Facebook and Google have faced similar lawsuits. Whether they *should* is another matter, but few of these cases make it to trial. ', 'I feel like that makes so many companies scared to try new things. God forbid something doesn’t work right off the bat, sue sue sue! It’s gross. ', 'It baffles me. MacBook keyboard not great?  Sue!\n\nMeanwhile Acer and some others have been making pure shit for ages but nobody sued them.\n\nIt’s pathetic. ', "Anybody can make a class action, doesn't mean its legitimate or will go anywhere. ", "Because that was a very serious flaw that they overlooked out of carelessness. That could have potentially ruined people's careers or lives. Apple deserves a class action out of it. ", 'Are we all gonna sit here and pretend like a company with an $800 billion market cap and a reputation for privacy should be held faultless for remotely activating your microphone and transferring that data to a third party without your consent? Like, dude, if a multi-million dollar settlement makes them think twice about shipping a half-baked and insecure feature again, sign me up for the class action.', 'It affects people’s right to privacy. They should know better then to be complacent.', 'I’m not agreeing or disagreeing with the case, but it does incentivize companies to not have such big security flaws.', 'Because Apple prides itself on privacy and this was in no way a good example of that. ', 'I know man fuck. I’d JUST gotten most of my friends onto 12.1 and was able to Group FaceTime them. Now I gotta wait for everyone to be on this new update again', "I'm disappointed I had to scroll down this far to find this comment. Your phone should never be sending live audio data (or anything really) to the internet without you instructing the device to do so. The fact that Apple only had to patch their servers strongly suggests that they they still hold the ability to remotely activate audio capture, which is really concerning. Given that Apple is usually quite privacy-conscious, I wonder if this is just really bad software design or if it was forced to be put there by a three letter agency.", 'System apps that require it gain automatic use of the mic and camera. Any other apps require user specific consent to do so.\n\nAs others have said, the camera/mic are activated before you pickup to make sure that there isn’t a delay when answering FaceTime.\n\nThis isn’t a “major breach” of anything, please stop trying to make this into something it’s not, because you clearly are grasping at straws here. This is a bug, bugs exists, and Apple fixed it. ', 'Jesus that’s bloody scary! ', "The only way to actually achieve this would be to have a physical button to disconnect the microphone, no?\n\nI'm not a developper tho.", 'Even if they implemented that, how would you know it worked?', '> This is proof that the microphone can be remotely activated by Apple without your knowledge or consent. \n\nIt\'s totally not. The microphone and camera are activated by the FaceTime app when it opens. Not when you connect to a call. Not when you initiate a call, but the entire time. As soon as you initiate a call, the app begins streaming data (audio and video) to Apple\'s servers to relay to the other person(s). This is done to prevent any apparent latency in connecting calls. The same optimization for getting calls to connect apparently instantly would obviously involve doing the same thing on the recipient: as soon as FaceTime is opened (triggered by the incoming call), it starts streaming data so that when you hit "Accept" it can instantly start the call. I presume that they do this pre-streaming not only to reduce connection/initiation latency but to allow the system to optimize its network utilization based on current circumstances. So there\'s no buffering when you connect to a call.\n\nMy best professional guess is that this exploit is due the recipient initiating the data stream, and the caller having an unanticipated code path that results in outputting the data stream prematurely.\n\nThe problem with this bug is not that the device starts streaming before you pick up (because FaceTime has to be activated for that; the only magic here is that an app can be initiated remotely, which is obviously necessary for FaceTime and regular phone calls), but that the pre-stream data is accessible to other connected clients before you accept the call. I highly doubt that they\'re going to get rid of the pre-streaming, so we\'re going to see more stringent controls on call initiation that gets verified via the server.\n\nThe most paranoid (and I don\'t mean that in a derogatory way) solution would be to disable the pre-streaming.\n\nThe second most would be for the FaceTime server or the client to encrypt the pre-stream and then send it along to the other clients, but not send them the keys to decrypt that data until the call is initiated.\n\nThe third is to close up the hole that allowed premature access to the stream, and implement a more rigorous call initiation handshake with the server.\n\nOf these, I find either two or three the most likely. But given the delay in release, two is plausible. It\'s also the best compromise between maintaining the current feature set and user experience, and getting guaranteed privacy. Even more so if the client is the one to encrypt the actual call data stream, and doesn\'t send the decryption key out until it\'s accepted the call.', 'I don’t know who to disagree with', 'Good thing they(FB and Google) don’t operate in NYC cause Gov Cuomo will put a stop to... wait forget that. ', 'No this is literally a breach of trust. Apple is a giant company which can remotely control your microphone. And they majorly fucked up. If that isn’t Facebook level scary to you, take off your rose tinted glasses. ', 'Discord, my friend.', 'I agree that some amounts of testing and QA def might not have caught this...however this speaks to the methods of development for other features/products.  Group facetime should have never been engineered in a way where this was possible, unless it was made clear to the user that someone even dialing your phone enables the audio.  Deep rooted architectural issues are the true purpose for this which is scary to think about in other contexts of iOS.', 'I’ve been a software developer for over 10 years, including time at Apple. This bug is indicative of a serious architectural flaw. It shouldn’t even be remotely possible for this to happen. Good security is achieved through good design, not perfect implementation.', "Even if they hadn't seen it, Apple dragged their heels on getting the issue escalated to the devs. The family was fobbed off by the security team, ffs. That's indefensible. ", 'Apple defense squad... assemble!', 'The person calling has to do all of that. No such involvement is needed from the victim. Additionally, if they press the home button to mute it, it started to send video in addition to audio. ', 'It’s a massive security hole nonetheless. We can’t excuse them out of everything... I’m surprised how people will defend Apple at everything. ', 'If you’re a lawyer and your phone is in silent mode or DND, they can hear some shit. \n\nMost people run around with the silent mode switched on as it is. ', "I wonder if the bug was also exploitable if the recipient's phone was in silent/DND mode. That would make the screen light up, but otherwise the phone might not vibrate/ring.", "And Apple has apparently disabled Group FaceTime on their end anyway.  So the exploit isn't just pointless, it's literally impossible to do.", "It's a pretty big deal if the person calling you can hear you before you pick up or ignore the call. ", "Two reasons, I think: First, because unlike a lot of other security holes, the concept and potential for abuse are easy to grasp. At the end of the day, most people probably understand what's happening whereas with many other security flaws, people who aren't super tech savvy just know there's a problem and want to know how to fix it (whether or not they understand it). Secondly, this is a security hole that you don't really need much technical knowledge to exploit. If someone wanted to use this maliciously, you basically just have to watch a YouTube video or read a short article to see how it's done. Most other security holes we hear about require much more tech savvy. \n\nYou could also potentially list a surge in privacy concerns/awareness as a third reason and this flaw fits into that topic perfectly. Not that your points aren't valid at all, but ending/answering the call requires the recipient to notice it. Even for me, as often as I'm on my phone, I don't always notice it vibrating on my desk or in my pocket. Those who keep their phone in a bag or purse likely have the same experience.", "It's a bad bug but who was really adding themselves to a facetime call anyway? Anybody who did was doing so with the goal of reproducing the bug. It's not like the audio was just going through automatically - by the time it started to spread apple turned off group facetime. It's not a big deal", "This.\n\n\n\nHere are two scenerios.\n\n1) someone you know tries to FaceTime you and listen/watch in. Well you already know of the bug by now, so you should be suspicious of anyone who FaceTime you without texting you first and saying 'yo got time to FaceTime?' and also you have the name/number of the person who FaceTimed you so if you are even remotely suspicious you know who the person is.\n\n\n\n2) someone you don't know tries to FaceTime you and listen/watch in. why would you try to FaceTime random people and hope you accidentally stumble across someone important enough that you get to listen in on their meeting or hear them eating their lunch.\n\n\n\nIt's stupid. Everyones paranoia, the press it's gotten. Do that many people FaceTime in a single day that you'd never once think, man I wonder if that person is trying to use the bug on me..lol", 'This video - if accurate - explains the absurdity of outrage:\n\nhttps://youtu.be/lgMBTOi95is?t=29\n\n', "It's an article title, it's standard", '?', 'You’ve never used android. Sucked to be rooted via NFC just by sitting next to someone on the bus. ', "I mean, it may be a much harder issue to fix than we think.  Even if the FaceTime app itself was separate in the store, it would still interact with many levels of the system, and they still might not have gotten a fix out this week.\n\n\n\nPlus, you want this fix to be properly vetted.  You don't want a quick patch that just breaks something else because it didn't go through a security audit process.", 'What makes you think the FaceTime system framework is located within the FaceTime app?', 'I read Obama instead of China for some reason and it still made sense to me.', 'Who’s hating? The bug isn’t even fixed. Apple just disabled Group Facetime until they can get the actual fix out', 'Well it seems you’ve answered your question. ', 'Did it really draw attention away? Really?', 'Two completely separate matters. Take off the tinfoil hat. They revoked those certificates because Facebook and Google broke the enterprise developer agreement. No other reason.', 'Omg! 😯 hey everybody! This guy discovered their true intentions. ', 'Software is complicated. Your statement screams ignorance. ', 'Lol this is not true and petty to say. ', "Do tell, what better alternatives are there? \n\nIt needs to have these features: easy to configure so that my mum can use it, very fast and high quality a/v, preferably free AND privacy conscious (no this bug doesn't count), and should work on my Mac as well as my iPhone.", 'I FaceTime my son every day, and the days that my wife has to work we Group FaceTime him. ', 'You are, without your consent, by people who want to remote-activate your microphone.', 'They seems to always be on the verge of defamation...', 'They did a really good job of building a PC, though. ', 'The Verge is like Pitchfork for IT. Extremely biased and always liking to stir controversy.', 'After their pc building video, I try not to read or watch their things anymore', 'But them clicks tho.', 'Still, some fandroids use to say that The Verge is pro-Apple.', 'I wouldn’t say it’s “The Verge,” but more so the specific writers that submit those pieces. We can’t ignore all the other well-written articles on there ;)', "I listened to [Ctrl-Walt-Delete](https://www.theverge.com/ctrl-walt-delete) religiously.\n\nWalt Mossberg knew how to keep Nilay Patel's anti-Apple bias in check - he wouldn't let Nilay (or anyone for that matter) get away with blatantly false information.\n\nSince Walt retired? The Verge has gone to shit. Any semblence of balance is gone. Their target demographic is people who dislike Apple and they aren't shy about letting the world know it.", 'Most media outlets are notorious for doing that', 'The Verge is fake news.', 'On the verge of telling the whole story?', "I don't think I have seen too many outlets saying that you currently be exploited by it. ", 'And this is why you get people saying to never update your phone. ', 'And Forbes. ', '(And vox because they own the verge)', 'Still waiting for his massive iPhone giveaway', "It's PR speak being technically correct. The other Apple employees that *weren't engineers* and ignored the warnings, aren't included. Why couldn't the engineers get the information sooner is a question that I'm sure Apple is investigating right now. ", 'People need to put food on the table and their kids need shoes.', "They disabled it as soon as their engineers were aware of it. I'm sure they are currently investigating why it took that long for the information to make it up the chain to them.", 'Curious how much more you paid for the last macOS update over your upgrade to Windows 10? ', 'Found the Verge journalist!!!!', '/u/JamesR624 complaining about Apple? Well now I\'ve seen everything! I\'m a little disappointed that you didn\'t manage to work the word "fanboy" into your post. You\'re slipping.', 'Agreed. I miss the 90s when you could literally get transferred to the engineering department or someone who is worth a damn.\nIt feels incredibly difficult to contact the correct people necessary at certain companies these days (google, robinhood, facebook, etc).', 'Radar is in-house bug reporting and tracking software that Apple uses. Radar bugs can also be submitted by third-party developers to flag an issue with how Apple’s software is interfacing with their code. ', "I'd assume the server change will require users to be running the latest version of iOS to make a group FaceTime call.", "If it didn't before, it will now.", 'Maybe the server gets notified as to whether the receiver of the call picks up. In which case you can just prevent them from connecting audio unless the receiver has connected.', "My best guess is the server won't send any data until the call is picked up.  Client agnostic", 'I bet you are right, but it seems to me this could be fixed from just a server patch. ', 'You’re never going to upgrade from that release? I’m curious why?', "> This would be horrible for the user, and horrible for engineering.\n\nWhy? This is literally what every App Store developer deals with on a daily basis. \n\nAnd it's something Google manages absolutely fine on Android.", "> you have the problem of people using separate app version across separate iOS versions.\n\nOr, force the apps to update when upgrading iOS. Problem solved. App updates can already be restricted to certain iOS versions.\n\n> Decoupling these apps would be horrendous for iOS quality and stability.\n\nNot really. As long as the apps have the same protocol to communicate with each other provided by the OS as they do now, they should still be able to have the same functionality.\n\n(A separate but related poor UX in iOS is that you can't even set a different app as default for email, browser, etc.- that is a basic feature that should have been part of iOS years ago)", "It's amazing how you're trying to spin this as a negative. On Google's phones, there is no redundancy. On other OEMs, you have the option to download any from the Play Store (such as Google's) and use them in place of the ones your phone ships with (also known as setting default apps, a long requested feature on iOS).", ">\tit doesn’t replace the one in the phone\n\nIt does if it has the same bundle ID. Basically, it can replace the one on the phone, except the manufacturers want to make sure they have their own version staying here too. ;)\n\nWhich sucks for users. But also means on a device controlled by Google like the Pixel, that issue doesn't exist. It wouldn't exist for Apple either if they used that same model. ", 'dat bloat', 'Yes, but money might also be the reason. ', 'But, to clarify for those keyboard warriors out there, Careless =/= negligence, nor does it equal liability. ', "It's ironic how you speak so lowly of suing people or companies when Apple is notorious for using people over really stupid shit. ", "People prefer to buy and complain because what they bought isn't perfect than just buying another brand or using the way at their disposal to fix it, it seems...", 'Because Apple products are super cheap. Not. ', 'Yes and so what?\n\n', 'Suing because the feature is disabled?\n\nAs long as the vulnerability is fixed, there is no reason to sue if the definitive fix and subsequent reenabling of the feature is delayed.', 'Why is it hard for them to update?', 'They claim to be privacy first but is that just a marketing ploy? There’s not necessarily proof of any claims to say it’s 100% ironclad truth. ', 'Then unbundle system apps from the system and make them have explicit consent. ', 'System apps should not be granted automatic unattended access to your camera and microphone simply because they were pre-installed on your device. I am not grasping at straws, I am stating that it is unacceptable for a 3rd party to have remote access to my device without my consent.', 'This certainly is one of the biggest security bugs in phone history. ', 'A physical button is good, but a software solution can also be used with a chain-of-trust leading back to the bootloader and ultimately the firmware and processor. The same way your computer prompts you for your password when you need to elevate your account to an admin, your phone can do the same when requesting access to sensors and your camera/mic. At least that is the idea behind security processors, trusted platforms, signed bootloaders, kernels, and binaries.\n\nUsers will likely grant unattended access after using an app enough times, or potentially the phone could use your biometrics to temporarily grant unattended access.\n\nThe improved security is a trade-off, but having access granted, by default, even if the app is "trusted" because it\'s a system app that was pre-installed is not a good policy for your mic or camera.', 'I disagree with both views he proposed I think apple did good enough but could definitely have done better idk', 'Not the best phrase to use... \n\nMaybe they were busy because of www.forbes.com/sites/davidphelan/2019/02/01/apple-blocks-google-and-facebook-ios-enterprise-certificates-now-restored/amp/\n\nMaybe anyone can report a bug by calling Apple but it’s easier (and more exciting) to make a video showing everyone how to use this exploit and then post it on social media. \n\nMaybe they did call apple, but they started every other paragraph off with a sarcastic, rhetorical question.\n\nMaybe not. \n\nAllow me to restate my point:  Apple is receiving a lot of negative press and attention from the spin doctor Twitter/reddit researchers we call “reporters”.   If privacy is a real concern, where’s the coverage telling people how to turn these FEATURES off on Duo and Facebook Messenger. \n\nThey could have just left it on for a few years like Google+.  \n\nWhy didn’t they pull it as soon as it was noticed?  Because being over vigilant is just as harmful.  They could have acted faster, but it’s easy for all of us arm chair security experts to say that.\n\nThe VALID question... Is it still an issue?\n', "> Apple is a giant company which can remotely control your microphone.\n\nThis is a purposefully misleading characterization. Apple can only remotely control the microphone because they can remotely push software for your device that controls the microphone, just like most other companies. It's not like they are listening to you constantly.\n", 'They can’t remotely access your microphone. When FaceTiming the microphone and or camera are loaded prematurely to avoid delays when actually viewing or listening to the call. The bug is just that the victims phone was forced to accept the call.\n\n', 'I use discord when PC gaming, audio quality is shit compared to FaceTime ', 'A flawless software doesn’t require a perfect implementation. \n\nOk sure.', 'Shouldn’t be surprised they do but here they are. “No it’s the reporters who exaggerated it, not Apples fault”', 'Probably pedantic but it wasn’t in addition to audio, the video replaced the audio. Still bad.', "I'm not defending Apple. A bug is a bug is a bug. This bug just doesn't seem like as big of a deal as the media is making it out to be. The recipient KNOWS they are being called. It's not like someone could latch onto their phone magically and start eavesdropping without their knowledge. ", "I'm surprised how everyone on the internet can make such broad generalizations about everything.  It's always the same thing from everyone, every time, ever.", "> It’s a massive security hole nonetheless. We can’t excuse them out of everything... I’m surprised how people will defend Apple at everything. \n\nOk, but you didn't address any of his points with this comment.", "Boy you are a Troll. I mean I didn't need verification I could already tell from your first comment, but this just solidifies my assumption. I'm alway right about reddit trolls, you can always sniff them out. lol", "Not on DND. DND actively declines incoming calls, so it wouldn't get to the FaceTime ringing stage for this exploit to become usable.", "There's no reason to believe it would be any different if the device was on Silent mode. That just stops the noise of ringing. On DND, it actively declines incoming calls unless certain conditions are met.\n\nIf the FaceTime app isn't activated and the incoming call interface is not displayed, then this bug doesn't work. So it would work the same on Silent, and not work on DND unless DND let the call through (which is can be configured by you, the user, to do; by default I believe it allows calls from your favorites and on the second or third try).", 'Often, the user neither wants to reject the call nor accept it, they just want to ignore it by letting it ring. What about this situation? How do you counter this? \n\nAlso, your average consumer doesn’t know about this FaceTime bug; majority of their user base isn’t tech savvy. ', "I've had android since the galaxy Note1 came out and have been rooter up until the last 2 generations. Never once had an issue where someone could listen to my mic without my permission. Nor did I have any issues with someone on the bus. ", 'Ok. Good... ', 'Yep no one wants to hear it.', 'They tried to. ', "They did it because they're struggling and have hatred for Facebook and Google. They're just as bad as them. ", 'That’s fine. ', 'And plants a seed in the tech bro Youtube echo chamber.\n\nHot takes - no analysis, and no retraction/correction when there is actual information.', 'Vox media itself is shady.', 'Apple is guilty of the same sin of omission. They make it seem like the engineering team jumped into action the second this was discovered. I’m sure they did move very quickly after getting the information, but the Apple comms team that took the reports took over a week to do nothing, and the eng team learned about it from twitter. That’s all anyone should take away from this event. ', "Gotta make sure that power supply doesn't short circuit on the case lol", 'I just watched that. I’m kinda speechless.', 'I haven’t seen it. Should I watch it? I’ve been reading the verge less for a while now as they seem to want clicks more than being proud of good quality tech news that’s factual. Call me old school hey. ', 'They’re willing to pander to anyone and shit-stir any controversy in order to attract as much attention as they can.  Who knew for-profit ‘journalism’ could be so great?', "Certainly *some* of their reviewers, though more and more I think it's just systemic incompetency than malice. ", 'Here, you dropped this: /s', 'Was one of my favorite podcasts, really miss it', "Nilay is such a damn tool. I've never given much weight to his viewpoints and he's just so smug. Blech.", 'Vox Media owns The Verge, Polygon, Recode, Vox, SBNation, Eater, etc. Vox, their news website, does not own The Verge. It’s like saying MSNBC owns CNBC, when actually both are owned by NBC. ', 'Haha, you mean all those empty boxes???', 'I suspect you and I have similar values, so please take this as the earnest feedback that it is. Claiming that Facebook/Google “sell” your data/pictures/etc is not the tight argument to make. They don’t accept money in exchange for actual data, and it gives them/their defenders an easy out - they say, flatly, “we don’t sell anyone’s data”. \n\nWhat they do is build a unique profile based on your interests and activities and then charge advertisers to target you and a handful of others with similar profiles. They make money *from* your data, but not in exchange for it.\n\nOur call to action must be “stop the collecting of private data for profit”, which they cannot deny.', 'When companies get user hostile they will lose. I like that you can still email Tim Cook directly. ', 'Nice', '>\tlatest version of iOS\n\nOr at least > 12.2.x which includes the fix. ', 'Yes. They will probably have two FaceTime APIs. One that is disabled and one that isn’t. Devices that haven’t updated will see the old, disabled API and updated devices will see the newer, patched API.', 'I fully intend on jailbreaking my phone. ', 'Try 4GB or more for the recent update via iTunes from memory. It also kept failing and can’t resume which is just ridiculous. I don’t understand why Apple hasn’t addressed this. The other annoying thing is every device will get a specific iOS version and so you have to do it multiple times. Must be a drain on worldwide bandwidth. ', 'iOS updates are incremental.', 'It could be because Apple has a lot of assets, otherwise known as money.', 'Germany is actually the most litigious country in the world.', 'Oh I’m not defending Apple, I just don’t like American sue culture. Apple abuses it just as bad as that one lawyer who goes to old cities and will measure everything and tries to sue small mom and pop shops for ada reasons. He made 3 small shops just close, one due to the handle bar in the restroom was .3 inches too low and it was due to tile being placed after they installed it. ', 'Some people are so loyal to some brands that they feel forced to use their products, and so they complain complain complain.', 'It’s not hard to do, but many people don’t update right away.', 'It requires your phone to be off for twenty minutes and most of my friends are hesitant to do it', 'True. Hence the class action lawsuit. ', 'I would prefer to do have them bundled. Too annoying to do it individually. I use iOS for the convenience, and would have shifted to Android if I wanted to do things manually.', "Then you fall in to a situation where phone.app requires permissions to grab the camera and mic. What if you had to call 911 and you accidentally hit don't allow, and they couldn't hear you? Or if you had to use someone else's phone and they had rejected the permissions and you had the same problem but no way to authenticate and fix it?\n\nApple just needs to get rid of the bug and not have outgoing audio traffic leave the phone until you hit answer/accept/allow. We cannot audit ourselves to ensure the microphone isn't listening to us and sending data to Apple's cloud without our knowledge, even if they popped up security prompts, due to iOS being closed-source. (Without packet inspection, although, constantly auditing all of your traffic isn't very realistic). ", 'You’re completely comparing two different things to make Apple seem bad.\n\nBugs exist.\n\nGo back to virusware Google.\n\nSee how stupid that is?', '> System apps should not be granted automatic unattended access to your camera and microphone simply because they were pre-installed on your device.\n\nThey\'re not granted "unattended access", those apps have to be open. If they\'re not open, they don\'t get access. FaceTime is not listening in the background like magic here, it\'s only listening when activated by a call. Obviously that\'s not good, but that\'s the extend of this particular vulnerability.', 'You certainly sound like someone that has ZERO knowledge of how software actually functions on a lower level. You’re making a lot of assumptions here, based on a lot of misinformation. \n\n/r/Apple in a nutshell\n', 'How is this "one of the biggest security bugs in phone history?" Android didn\'t even allow you to choose to disable the microphone for third party apps until relatively recently\n\nAndroid fanboys are just as cancerous as Apple fanboys on this sub ', 'Sorry for the text wall btw it’s a lot of info:\n\n\nThe thing is Apple ALREADY uses chain of trust in the iPhone boot process. It’s just that they use it for “platform security” (basically prevention of boot time malware and also prevention of jailbreaking, by ensuring the device runs trusted code from the bootrom onwards.). They have an entire coprocessor dedicated to device security and user data protection (that chip, called the Secure Enclave or SEP, is the reason why brute forces from a user are impossible, as part of the key that protects user data is derived from a hardware key in this SEP that can’t be extracted by software). They can almost certainly adapt the bootchain trust system to peripheral devices such as cameras and mics. It’s just that iBoot, and by extension SecureROM, aren’t really designed with that capability yet and they’re generally not running or even purged from memory esp. if XNU’s uptime has been for quite a while. Fun fact, the reason downgrades are impossible unsigned is because of this chain of trust system. The securerom (by default) refuses to run code that isn’t signed and personalized for not only a hardcoded device identifier, but also for a restore time nonce. That nonce part is what prevents replay attacks (the thing that enables reusing signatures previously used) from working and the personalization to a hardcoded identifier ensures that signatures are device specific, meaning for any devices you want to have the potential to downgrade, you must save the signatures for that specific identifier. (This id by the way is called an ECID). So yeah Apple knows chain of trust rather well and actively locks down that boot process.\n\nThe following is pretty much how I’d go about making a trust model for peripherals such as camera and mic. All of this is based on my understanding of the SEP and AP and is just my thoughts and such:\n\n\nIf you want a chain of trust for cameras and mics, the way the current architecture is set up, the best way would be to put control of the enabling and disabling of the microphone in the SEP, obviously as toggles available for the user. When an application wants to use the microphone or camera it will not be able to just use it. (The sep would have complete control over the device and would default to denying access until user consent is given) Instead it will have to send a request to the SEP to use a peripheral device. Then the SEP would capture that request (ideally with verification to ensure the request really did come from the app and not from a fraudulent source) and then would send an outbox message to the secure mailbox (The SEP and AP (The A-series processor) are isolated from each other with AP being unable to encroach on SEP’s territory. They share a piece of hardware called a secure mailbox. If the AP has to send a message to SEP, it has to go through the mailbox. The SEP will then act on the message and send a reply to the AP through that mailbox. It’s the only way for the two to communicate in normal use.) this mailbox message would indicate to the AP that an application has requested access to a peripheral device that the sep controls. After the AP gets the message, the kernel would go through a process and then bring up an alert dialog asking the user that an application has attempted to access a hardware peripheral and asks for user consent. If denied the application’s request errors out. If approved, the AP will send a message to the SEP mailbox telling it the request for peripherals was approved. The SEP will then allow access to the peripheral the application requested and will in some way add that application to a whitelist of approved applications to access peripheral devices. The user (ideally) would be able to access this whitelist to remove applications at any time.\n\n\nSorry for the text wall again but I had a lot of info and it’s really interesting how this stuff works.', 'To clarify, are you suggesting to require elevated access every time each app needs mic or camera sensor, or require a one-off request per app including system apps for permission to use those resources?\n\nEdit: perhaps you meant one off request to use resource while unlocked, but require elevated access to use while locked (I.e. have to unlock to answer call)', 'How do you know? Do you know what they’re using in the back end?', '>\tThey can’t remotely access your microphone. \n\nHow are you so sure? Have you seen the source code?', '>\tYeah? Shut the f... up you tinfoilhat freak... I’m bored of people like you...\n\nI’m not here to entertain you. ', 'Can you not personally attack people because you disagree with them?', "weird... i use Discord on several devices, none of them have audio quality issues. it's actually been pretty rock solid. maybe try a device you usually use to FaceTime, instead of your PC?", 'Thing is the reporters *are* exaggerating it. It was a big flaw that isn’t exploitable anymore: Apple has disabled Group FaceTime from their end. This is an update that will re-enable it. ', 'Thanks for the correction. ', 'Often, the user neither wants to reject the call nor accept it, they just want to ignore it by letting it ring. What about this situation?', 'It’s possible that the device is on silent mode. A user could potentially receive many repeated calls before becoming aware. In countries like Japan and Korea, people essentially never turn off silent mode for the lifetime of the device.', 'This bug happened to my girlfriend and I while we were having sex and we didn’t hear the phone ring or vibrate at all. It’s definitely a big bug.', 'I’m more surprised we became security experts overnight. ', 'If you bother to read, he replied to my comment and I replied him back with a question he still hasn’t answered. ', 'My comment still stands. \n\n1) you’re rejecting a call from someone in your contacts so you know who FaceTimed you. You’d have to be an idiot to think you’re getting away with something. \n\n2) you’re rejecting a call from someone not in your contacts, which means someone is randomly FaceTiming numbers in hopes of stumbling across something worth their time trying to exploit the bug. This seems unlikely. \n\nEveryone who owns an iPhone has heard about the bug. It’s everywhere. If you own an iPhone then chances are you’re on Facebook, Instagram, Twitter, use the news, you’d have absolutely come across an article about it which means you’d be suspicious of any FaceTime call you get. My aunt who is the least tech savvy person on planet earth heard about the bug so I refuse to believe at this point someone owns something like an iPhone and hasn’t come across an article about the bug. Late night TV is talking about it. It’s on every TV news station. You’d have to be a hermit and then why would you even have an iPhone in the first place. \n\nIt’s a non issue. People are trying to justify why we should be paranoid, and I get that, but take step back and breathe, either scenario is so unlikely to happen.  People love to get outraged over things just for the sake of being outraged. ', 'On the introduction of NFC on Android it was demonstrated at defcon that any android could be rooted over NFC within 5 ft. ', 'They did it because Facebook and Google blatantly violated the policy set forth in the enterprise developer license that does not allow anyone to install those certificates on the device of anyone outside their organization unless that person is on their company properly and fully supervised at all times. \n\nBut keep making up lies and other conjecture.', 'It was a joke, but they do frequently misrepresent situations and communications to get views.  I rarely visit them these days.', 'Except for the amount of bug reports they get daily from many sources some real some not \n\nThat then have to be verified by the proper team as being real \n\nSent up to the proper team to diagnose what’s causing it and how easily is can be replicated\n\nThen fix as appropriate', 'The wrist strap is what gets me. ', 'If someone followed their video, I believe they’d be misinformed and have a much higher chance of build failure', "They used to say that about every single reviewer/editor, regardless, instead of admitting that hey, [that iPhone release] might actually just be a great phone (or not even that, just admitting that reviewer X has different priorities than you do). Like you'd get comments about posts Tom Warren would make calling him a shill for Apple, but he literally mostly deals with Microsoft information/products. ", "Nah, it's definitely malice. Everything is clickbait, soulless, dead-eyed, hardcore for-profit journalism now. When you *do* find a review site or other tech media outlet with a shred of integrity (like notebookcheck.com), it's like you've found the fucking Dead Sea Scrolls in our current environment. The Verge is on the same level as glorified Amazon Affiliate revenue generator sites like BGR.", 'Polygon has been invaluable as I’ve worked through Breath of the Wild haha. ', 'same, I’m on 12.1.1 for jb', 'Then why is an incremental 12.1.3 via iTunes over 4GB and that’s required to download for each device and it can’t resume if it fails mid way?', "An Apple iPhone with Apple's software has Apple Calendar as the only built-in calendar app. A Google Pixel with Google's software has Google Calendar as the only built-in calendar app. A Samsung Galaxy S9 with Samsung's software has Samsung's calendar app as the only built-in calendar app. There is no confusion.\n\nIt is true, Google creates some redundancies, but you're grasping straws with whatever poor evidence you can find to support your biases here. The examples you use are not actually seen anywhere, and Google's actual redundancies are not the effect of separating apps from the core OS (which was your initial point).\n\n>That’s like apple releasing iOS calendar and apple calendar at the same time with different updates. And hoping you find apple calendar in the App Store without actually bringing it up anywhere.\n\nThat would be a proper analogy **only if** AOSP Calendar were the default and bundled calendar app on Google's phones, which is not the case. The AOSP version of apps are not available for consumers to download on the Play Store, nor are they bundled with any devices made by Google (nor are they included in other devices in general). If you have a device, it will have that device manufacturer's apps. That is true of Apple, Google, Samsung, and all the others. If you somehow get a non-Play device with AOSP apps, it will not come with access to Google's Play Store to get Google's versions of those apps.", 'I don’t understand. Your statement just supports the parent comment?', "Yeah you're probably right although this is one of the cases I'd agree with the lawsuit. ", 'Because we have no evidence to the contrary. You have to prove negligence. It’s not assumed.', "Well, the opposite haven't been proved. And (at least where I live) we have presumption of innocence, and Apple don't really have any background proving we should not accord it to them.", 'So because they don’t hit the massive red alert button the very second to shut down features whether it affects people or not, every time someone on fucking Twitter posts a tweet you think they’re ignoring it? What a fantastic way of severely disabling a phone.  \n\nWhen it comes to security you don’t acknowledge anything while it’s still very much unknown to everyone so you can fix it quietly without inconveniencing everyone. ', "Companies have made it dead simple now to update; it can even do it automatically. If people are still not updating then frankly they don't deserve nice things. ", 'People like me don’t update right away because there are bugs like, I don’t know, cellular connectivity being disabled or just not working in some of the latest updates!', "In the same way that sudo will grant temporary access, the phone can grant unattended access to sensors. If you unlocked the device, it could immediately grant access for a short configurable period of time.\n\nRemote unattended access to your hardware and it's sensors without permission is not good. Now, if you explicitly grant it when you are setting up your shiny new phone, then that's okay -- because you had to actually respond YES to the question at least once at some point.", "I have a degree in computer science, specializing in cryptography, software development, and advanced algorithms.\n\nCryptography and security is not a simple problem to solve, and it is very easy to screw up. But that being said, there are well defined workflows and use cases to prevent these types of problems from occurring. There are also entire firms specializing in cryptographic security audits of networks, workflows, and software to help prevent this from happening.\n\nIn this specific case, it is a server-side bug, that can be triggered by a client, to gain privileged access to another client's hardware **without their consent or knowledge.**", 'I cannot believe you brought Android into this. There are $200 Android phones. iPhones cost at least $750. People pay a premium for privacy. ', "Lol you know exactly why. Blame android for Apple's negligence? Figures. ", "I just read through your wall of text, but I don't see how it would help at all in this case.", 'They could implement both approaches and allow the user to decide during the initial setup or run of the app. After using the phone for a bit the nagging prompts would subside as the user sets their preferences. There might even be a way to securely transfer the users access preferences from their old device to avoid the initial setup for each new device.', 'Ok, why don\'t you point me to an operating system where you can provably verify that nobody is listening in on your microphone, short of "I don\'t have a microphone/my computer is airgapped"?', 'Source code≠unauditable, though it does make it somewhat easier.', 'It has been described many times here that the audio is activated in advance to allow the conversation to start right as the receiver answers. So that’s not a problem, it’s a feature.\n\nAlso it’s easy to be all smug and say Apple writes shitty software. But next time you’ll have to build something the size of IOS with such scales of distribution, let me know how you do in terms of flawlessness.\n\nAt some point something is going to break. You can only really blame them on how fast they handled the situation.', "In group FaceTime? But yeah, it's definitely possible. I'd say in most cases it won't happen like that, though.", "Except the victim's phone keeps ringing  (and presumably) will eventually time out or you'll get annoyed and finally hang up the call. Either way, the odds of getting something useful seem rather low.\n\n\n\nNow if you can latch onto the phone, with NO call timeout, and NO notification and listen while the victim was out of the room from their phone, THAT would be far more dangerous.", "This literally doesn't even work anymore. What reason do you have to be on this crusade against a bug that was defeated days ago?", 'Something something Holiday Inn Express', 'I’m surprised Apple became security and privacy focused overnight without doing anything substantial. ', 'Still, your comment didn’t say anything than “we can’t excuse Apple”, which is subjective. ', "You were the one who called me a Troll first homie, so your post now becomes the dumbest thing I've read all day.", 'God damn, the level of delusion is real in your reasoning. You’re making assumptions out of your anecdotes and applying it to the **billions**  of users who use the iPhone. \n\n>\tyou’re rejecting a call from someone not in your contacts, which means someone is randomly FaceTiming numbers in hopes of stumbling across something worth their time trying to exploit the bug. This seems unlikely.\n\nAnecdotes should never be accounted for facts. \n\n>\tEveryone who owns an iPhone has heard about the bug. It’s everywhere.\n\nAnother anecdote. Many people in my family own an iPhone and they don’t have a hint of this bug, what now? \n\n>If you own an iPhone then chances are you’re on Facebook, Instagram, Twitter, use the news, you’d have absolutely come across an article about it which means you’d be suspicious of any FaceTime call you get. My aunt who is the least tech savvy person on planet earth heard about the bug so I refuse to believe at this point someone owns something like an iPhone and hasn’t come across an article about the bug.\n\nThis is the stupidest thing I’ve read on this sub. You keep on assuming BS and apply it to your imaginary, delusional world of fanboism. \n\n>\tLate night TV is talking about it. It’s on every TV news station. You’d have to be a hermit and then why would you even have an iPhone in the first place.\n\nI dare you to find me one TV show or a news channel in India that talks about this issue. Remember, India is Apple’s second largest potential market with millions of phones in use. \n\nYou’re a troll, I’ve seen you around here and you’ve been banned several times as well. Now, next time you reply, I insist you come up with actual facts, evidence and sources. Your anecdotal assumptions won’t be dignified with a response. \n\nPeace. \n\n\n\n\n', 'someone being able to listen into what your saying without your knowledge isn’t a big issue? i have my phone on silent and could have no idea someones facetiming me. im sure there’s alot of people who had no idea about the bug as well. because it’s not a big deal to you doesn’t mean that for everyone it isn’t one.', "Alright bud. You seem intent to excuse Apple so whatever. It's kinda like how trumpsters always bring up Hillary. ", 'Especially given that from what I could find online they contacted Apple over every consumer tier support channel but didn’t bother to submit it to the security reporting email.', 'A proper grounding strap is actually good practice.\n\nBut, I cannot, for the life of me, understand how he thought a Livestrong knockoff bracelet with no grounding is supposed to do diddly shit.\n\nAnd this was immediately after recommending that you need an Allen wrench (just one!), a Swiss army knife that hopefully has a screwdriver, and “tweezers” for the wires.\n\nLike, how do you fail quite that badly? Jesus fuck.', "That fucking Swiss Army knife blew my mind. Christ that video was so bad it's like a parody.", 'Via iTunes maybe, but I am not sure they are incremental. Directly on the device they are, and are generally much smaller.', 'That’s obvious, but that doesn’t mean that the update procedure is. iOS used to be full updates (i.e. a full copy of the OS), but now they are incremental. Via iTunes, though, I don’t think they are.', 'Yeah. They were verifying that the parent comment was indeed correct, and than elaborating on the subject.', 'You agree with suing someone because their hand rail is a third of an inch too low?', "They didn't announce the flaw or give a temp fix for days. ", 'not all updates are equal.  sounds like you never went from ios 10 to 11', "No, it's a client-side bug, hence the client-side patch. They shut down the server to prevent people from making group FaceTime calls at all.", 'Pretty sure it’s client side.... the server aspect is that they disabled Group FaceTime for everyone until the client is patched, right?', 'It would be funny if google made 800$ phones.', 'Android also runs on more expensive devices. I don’t see your point. ', 'I’m not talking about the Group FaceTime bug I’m talking about how Apple already used chain of trust and how a trust model could be built to protect microphones and cameras from local silent requests to enable it.\n\nImplementing such a system for server side comms like Group FaceTime would be a while other challenge.', 'To me it seems unnecessary; the phone app is made by the same company as the chain of trust, so in my mind I already trusted the Apple phone app, camera app etc with the physical resources when I activate the phone. I accept that my view is not universally held though.\n\nA one-off permission question during setup wouldn’t have made much different for this Facetime issue, since I just don’t see many people having FaceTime active but not giving it those permissions. If you have to authenticate for incoming calls, that means that the cam and mic can only start running after the user has authenticated and answered. It would be slower, but for some people that trade is preferable. \n\nSecurity vs ease of use is an interesting topic to think about and I’m definitely not saying I’m right and any other perspective is wrong, though, ', 'There are literally two mobile OSes. One focused on using your data mostly running on super cheap mobile phones (I have zero expectations from them) and another charging a minimum of $750 for the latest models claiming to focus on privacy. Guess who I have more expectations from. ', 'How do I even know Apple conducts audits?', "Dude 1 thing most apple users will never understand is that people who don't use apple products just ignore the phone calls they don't want to pick, minimize them and continue to do the stuff they were doing. With apple you are forced most of the time to wait for the caller to stop calling, and imagine just pressing the lock screen button and now the caller can see and hear you. This is a major security bug and you are dam right people will complain about it. ", '>\tIf they’re letting the phone ring, they’re probably looking at the phone awkwardly thinking, “ugh, I don’t want to talk with this person.” Not having a sensitive conversation. \n\nThat\'s complete conjecture. It\'s absolutely unacceptable that this happened. You can\'t defend it with a hypothetical "oh but it probably wouldn\'t be so bad". \n\nIt\'s like when Siri couldn\'t activate the flashlight and someone said it was a good move on Apple\'s part because otherwise someone might use Hey Siri to turn on other people\'s phones in a movie theater. Apple was wrong in both cases, period. Although of course, this is a gross breach of privacy; the other case was just a UX failure. \n\nHere\'s a scenario for you: business meeting pr psychologist session; the phone is on a couch cushion to your side and it vibrates too weakly. Bam, massive breach of privacy. ', "That's a good little corporate parrot. Keep doing free advertising. ", 'Triggered?', 'I’m not saying it isn’t a big issue, I’m saying this scenario is a non issue. ', 'Nope, just responding to "This is single-handedly the worst security flaw in a phone ever. Just wow.". When it\'s a feature that needs to be enabled, just recently released and the various flaws on Android that allow full access to the phone even the carrier\'s firmware. What is funny about one of these flaws was that Verizon was never keen on updating the software for their phones (want new go buy a new phone!) except for the one that allowed access to the communication towers. Verizon has a patch ASAP!', 'I’ve been fixing electronics for 20 years, trust me I know a good grounding solution is important. \n\nJust the fact that they did that was a “what the fuck” thing for me. ', 'Yeah figured that but it’s still incredibly inefficient. I’m talking about iTunes on Mac too it does it that way. Seems like a place to improve efficiency any Apple people listening?', 'No I agree with apple being sued for this. This was a serious flaw. ', 'It does imply that they *tried*  to do everything right. Which is important ', "You're right, sounds like a nutcase who went overboard expecting a personal response.", 'I mean, disabling a service with this egregious of a security bug is the right move and the good thing to do for Apple and it’s customers. You wanna sue because you don’t want to update your phone to restore the service? That sounds childish to me. \n\nEspecially since you agreed to Apples iOS 12’s TOS, which explicitly states “Apple and it’s licensors reserve the right to change, suspend, remove, or disable access to any Services at any time without notice. In no event will Apple be liable for the removal of or disabling of access to any such Services.” \n\nSo suing is the childish thing here, imo. ', 'Google’s phones have different USPs like superior AI, more powerful OS etc. Apple’s is privacy. ', 'Except the selling point for them isn’t privacy. It’s a more powerful OS and superior AI. ', "Your model doesn't seem to solve the problem, though: Apple doesn't need to go all the way down to the SEP to grab permission, because the chain of trust has indirectly verified the OS and frameworks which can present the alert for permission as necessary.", 'Ok, but you\'re expectations seem to be "I need a way to *prove* that Apple can\'t spy on me", which is impossible for any manufacture unless you run with the configuration I specified above. However, it\'s pretty easy to make doing something like this significantly more difficult (that is: the backdoor for it would be in a more annoying place, generally lower on the stack), and I think Apple has done a decent job in this sense.', 'You don\'t. I\'m assuming the audits are coming from "our side" (e.g. users and third parties), as that\'s who the source code would be useful as well.', 'Out of logic? ', 'Lol this certainly is the single worst security screw up on a phone ever. So was the text that could brick your phone. ', 'And it was all downhill from there.', 'I think the vast majority update on-device, since it’s so much simpler. ', 'By my logic? I haven’t argued for or against separating apps from the OS, others have. There can be several reasons for why they are not separated now. ', 'So googl  can get away with murder if they market themselves the right way. I think all companies need to be taken equally accountable on privacy.', 'That’s a very dangerous territory to walk in, especially when a company says it’s focused on privacy. That’s why I think that even if Apple is genuinely serious about privacy, it’s closed source code and lack of transparency when it comes to security practices will make its privacy posture untenable. ', 'From the original [9to5mac article](https://9to5mac.com/2019/01/28/facetime-bug-hear-audio/)\n>\tif the person presses the Power button from the Lock screen, their video is also sent to the caller\n\nPressing the power button (i.e., to silence the call), *does* send their video to the caller.', "This is a lot worse than many of the privacy violations from other companies. Yes, Apple should be applauded for their usual pro-privacy stances, and they receive praise to that effect all the time. But people being able to listen to what you're doing remotely, with no action on your part... that's terrifying. And it absolutely shouldn't happen at a company with Apple's resources. ", 'It’s a non issue for 99.9% of people, yet 99.9% of people are freaking out over a non issue. You can’t even replicate it, Apple shut it down. And even if you could the chances of it a) happening to you b) someone trying it and actually pulling it off and listening to something of actual importance are about as good as you winning the lottery.\n\nSlow down and pump the breaks homie, the world isn’t collapsing. Lol\n\nAlso I’ve never been banned nor am I a troll, but feel free to continue making up shit to make your self a more believable Reddit police officer. Lol ', "> Lol this certainly is the single worst security screw up on a phone ever.\n\nIt's not.\n\n> So was the text that could brick your phone.\n\nThis isn't even a security vulnerability, it's a denial of service at best.", 'Sure but why don’t they share that efficient upgrade love via iTunes? ', 'Google would not have such incredible AI capabilities had it focused on privacy.', "I would be as glad as anyone else if Apple published all their source code under GPLv3. But that's not going to happen, so we have to the best with what we've got, which is auditing their closed source code (which is somewhat more annoying but largely the same thing) and continuing to ask.", '>\tAnd it absolutely shouldn’t happen at a company with Apple’s resources.\n\nApple is run by humans, not gods. Humans fuck shit up all the time. Sometimes it’s minor, sometimes it’s major. Apple could have been faster at detecting and patching it, but that’s all the fault they have in this case.', '> Also I’ve never been banned \n\n/r/quityourbullshit would like a word.\n\nYou most certainly have been banned before. From here specifically, maybe other subs as well.', "Denial of service? I bricked my Buddy's phone by doing it to him and had to take it to apple haha. ", "I don't know, but I guess the iTunes update system (and iTunes in general) works very differently and has essentially been unchanged for years. It is, after all, far older than on-device updating.", '>\tBut you have argued that the smaller the updates are, the faster it is to distribute them\n\nWell, argued.. I think that’s evident.\n\n>\tYou don’t necessarily need to create an “app update” through app store, Apple could just separate the frameworks \n\nYeah but the devil can be in the “just”. Of course it’s possible, but it may not be desirable for Apple for various reasons. ', 'This is neither absolute truth or a good excuse.', 'Can you name one? ', "Which egregious violations didn't receive any coverage? \n\nIt's not like people can't call out Apple just because others were worse. As long as other violations receive proportional coverage, this isn't an issue. ", 'Humans with a lot of money. This is the sort of thing that simply should not get past QA/testing. ', 'Yeah I’m pretty sure they’d love to get rid of iTunes. It’s not the best it’s a huge piece of software. ', 'Hindsight is 20/20. Throwing money at stuff doesn’t always magically make it better.', "So you can't name one. I willingly give info to those companies in exchange for services. And not a single company is constantly recording audio and even video, as this bug enables. That's not to even mention arbitrary access. ", ">\t“this is a lot worse than the privacy violations from other companies.”\n\nYou can't use quotation marks and then change my words. I said it's worse than *many* of the other violations. Not all. ", 'Don’t worry dude, you’re safe. No one would ever care enough about you to try to listen to you. ', '>  It’s that there’s far too many to name just one\n\nThat is the most hilariously bullshit excuse I\'ve ever heard. \n\n> Look at this week’s controversy: circumventing App Store guidelines and abusing dev certificates to distribute an app that collects every bit of information from teenager’s phones\n\nFirst, it does not collect "every bit of information". More importantly, there was an explicit and signed disclosure agreement for what information was. That is not a violation of privacy, any more so than me telling you I had fried eggs for breakfast is. \n\n> btw, this bug did not enable “constant recording.”\n\nHow did it not? What were the limits to its abilities? ', 'You sure showed me. ', ">\tI even went on to give you two relevant examples after making that statement. \n\nWhich I addressed. Actually, I didn't touch on Cambridge Analytica, because you seem to not even know the details. Or you seem to insist that public survey results being gathered by 3rd parties is equivalent to audio and video feed. ", '> We are aware that a small number of users are having issues with their third-generation butterfly keyboard and for that we are sorry. The vast majority of Mac notebook customers are having a positive experience with the new keyboard.\n\nAfter 3 years of this B.S., "sorry" doesn\'t cut it. Honestly, it\'s a fucking keyboard, get your shit together, Apple.', 'The only appropriate apology is to ditch this stupid butterfly mechanism, and go back to making laptops with *good* keyboards.', 'This keyboard issue is going to be my deciding factor. \n\nI’m not a “problem” customer. In my life, I’ve gone to Apple with 2 warranty problems over the last 20 years. My iPhone 6 didn’t bend, I always held my iPhone 4 correctly, my MacBook Pro GPU never died. \n\nI get a new MacBook every 2-3 years, every iPhone, every iPad, AirPods, watch every 2 years, only OEM cases and accessories. I use Apple Music, have a huge iCloud storage sub, AppleCare+ on EVERYTHING, and already enjoy News+. \n\n\nMy 2018 13in MBP was already fixed once after 3 months for the delete key being stuck. Now the replacement has E, R, S, and T keys repeating every 25/30 keystrokes. \n\nIf they don’t add the 2018s to the 4 year keyboard program by the time my standard 1 year warranty expires in August every single Apple product I own is being sold. \n\nI’m already used to Google and Microsoft products, I have a Surface Book and Pixelbook, in addition to other Android and Microsoft devices, I’m used to them as well, and they’re fine. The reason I’ve stuck with Apple is reliability and if they can’t maintain that I don’t see a reason for the premium. ', 'Just got my keyboard replaced (mbp 13" 2018).', "TBH that infamous keyboard is the only reason I'm not upgrading for years, fix it properly please.", 'Betcha they still not gonna include any 2018 models in the keyboard program when their warranty end this july and gonna lay low until the outrage dies down like 2018 iPad Pro bending and 2017 iPad pro white spots', 'My 2018 MacBook Pro was just last week in repair after 4 months of work. The keyboard is together with the Display my connection to my laptop but it seems they do not put that much effort in the keyboard than in other stuff of the laptop. ', 'Said it numerous times here, but never have I been so disappointed at Apple for this keyboard. I bought my MBP w/ Touch Bar in January 2017, and the computer lasted for 6 months until one of the keys was not responding correctly (double typing a letter). I got the "second generation" butterfly keyboard, and once again I have the same issues with this computer (this time it is the down arrow key). To put it in a big picture, my first Mac was a unibody MBP from 2008, and it is still going strong, it is just insanely slow. The whole thing pisses me off incredibly, because it was so expensive, and every time I type on this keyboard I have this recurring thought that it might break again soon. So, one thing that I can answer to Apple "apologizing" is that they can shove it, the quality of the computer they released is just crap', '2015 MBP master race checking in', "Small number my ass. It's also just the general loudness that I've heard quite a few people complain about including myself. It really is a nuisance during meetings/conferences.\n\nI want a new MBA but I think I'll wait until another generation of keyboard TBH. I don't want to have to baby it or be careful or have the hassle of bringing it in for repairs. I'm a heavy hitting typer and have no intention of changing my ways because of their poor design (that never really needed to be changed in the first place).", 'a small number of one million users', "Apple doesn't apologize for issues that a small number of people suffer, which tells me this is a relatively large issue and that this statement is just them publicly acknowledging that it is on their radar to fix (rather than that they are sorry). If they were really sorry this would come with an extension of duration for the current hardware fix as well as include the 2018 models.", "I don't have this issue with mine but I'm tempted to sell it before I have this issue. Though I do have apple care for 3 years so I'm good.", 'So how does an apology help the people suffering from issues? Come on Apple, use the money you’ll be collecting from everyone’s debt with your Credit Card to replace the damn keyboards. ', '“SORRY”\n_rubs nipples_', 'literally how fucking hard is it to fix a keyboard... this has been what 3/4 iterations now?', 'Your $1200+ laptop\'s keyboards are bad and too easy to defect, please go back to regular keyboards!\n\n"Sorry you feel that way." - Apple', "Huh, I didn't know that Apple (internally) admitted that the membrane on the 3rd gen keyboards was to help reple dust & shit. I thought that was just a theory that all of the YouTube reviewers kept spouting without actual confirmation from Apple.\n\nWell I guess this is a step in the right direction, although very late.\n\nApple. Do better.", 'I had a MacBook Air and loved it, when I needed a new laptop two years ago I would have went for a pro if it had the old keyboard. I went for a thinkpad instead. ', 'I’m buying a Lenovo X1 carbon. The only thing I’ll miss is that trackpad. ', "Dell XPS is what I went to after 2015. Sorry Apple. It's now 4 years and you still haven't fixed the keyboard issues.\n\nMy Dell XPS keyboard works and has good travel. The trackpad is about 90% of what I remember from my 2012 MBP. Plus I use a mouse since it's normally connected through a docking station.\n\nApple just needs to make the MBP a bit bigger and put a proper keyboard in it. Especially at these price points. It's ridiculous Apple hasn't fixed this and just doing band aid fixes. \n\nBring on the class action lawsuit.", '“Small number” my ass.\n\n', "I just don't like the butter fly switches, that's honestly the deal breaker for me. Sure I can dismiss the high prices if I were to get one. But god damn do I hate the keyboard on that computer, and not only that but potentially having get it replaced because of how shitty it is? no thank yo ", 'Apologises? How about recall and reimburse?', 'These vague statements are meaningless coming from Apple.\n\nThey called the iPhone 6 bending a "rare" issue and used this metric to back it up:\n\n>[through our first six days of sale, a total of nine customers have contacted Apple with a bent iPhone 6 Plus](https://www.theverge.com/2014/9/25/6844943/apple-says-iphone-bending-extremely-rare)', 'At this point Apple probably just uses the same template for their yearly non-apology for their Macbook keyboards.', 'So how many are affected? Reading this sub makes me thinks its like 80%. ', 'I got a Surface to replace my Macbook. The Type Cover is a keyboard done right.\nWhat an elitist smug "apology."', 'itts. onlly. aa. smlll. number', 'I had my 2018 MBP exchanged **3 times** until I got one that didn’t have the keyboard issue. It was so hectic having to backup and restore each time. I really hope they fix this issue with their next lineup.', 'It’s small number until the keyboard issues show up on all device. It’s just a matter of time.', 'If it concern a small number of user just fix it lmao, this make no sense', 'Really wanted to get the MacBook Pro 15” 512GB to upgrade since my line of work is demanding more power... the sales the last few weeks have been tempting but THAT keyboard tho..', '“Smll nmber” that is', "I keep mulling over getting a new MBA since they're $999 on Amazon right now but all these talks about the keyboard issues has me wary. Should have just held on to my late 2013 MBP.", "The keyboard is as bas as the reports say. What upsets me the most is that they want me to send in my computer for 5-7 days. I simply cannot do that. I depend on it for school and work. It is not reasonable to ask someone to do that when this problem is as widespread as it is. I don't care if they send me a refurbished one. Send it to the store, and then i'll give them my fucked up computer in exchange for the refurbished one. Especially since I am still covered under Apple Care. That is the least they could do in order to make this shit show as fair as possible to their customers.", 'LOL the last two years of keyboard problems have already ensured that my next laptop will not be a Mac, but this is just ridiculous. If I’m gonna have a shit keyboard on a system I can’t upgrade, I might as well get a Surface Pro and at least get the superior note taking and portability. Next release seems likely to include TB, wiping out its biggest weakness. ', "Apple has a bit of history in sticking with known flaws until it's embarrassingly obvious they need to ditch it.\n\nMy 2015 MacBook Pro had a flawless keyboard. Loved it. The 2018 MacBook Pro I now own I really cannot get used to the keyboard and that annoying touchbar that gets in the road of everything.\n\nIf I didn't have to use a Mac I would certainly be looking at other options.", 'Yup happy to have my 2012. Would like to get a 2014 as a backup. ', 'They are making too much money to care, and it is a problem.  Jobs would not have stood for it.', 'I know some people are affected by this issue but so far I haven’t had any problems. I’ve had the MacBook 2015 and the MacBook Pro 13” TB. I don’t like the low travel butterfly keyboards but I haven’t had any issues.', 'Apparently only the touchbar ones are even getting the gen 3 keyboard? ', 'Keyboard cover?', 'Apple can keep selling the old-fashioned iPad but cannot do the same for MacBook Pro?', 'What Courage.', 'of course they say "small number", why the hell am I even surprised? ', "After these kind of press i'm expecting that the new MBP will have a proper keyboard, i have noticed that with Apple they do something stupid and then fix it later, not sure if they are doing this on purpose just to get the hype or the one who approved this crap keyboard is just an idiot.", "My work laptop has a few keys that don't work unless I slam them really hard. \n\nI can expense an external keyboard to address the issue, but it's a pain in the ass and means I now have to carry a keyboard everywhere when traveling. \n\nI need to buy a new personal MacBook for my wife for video & photo editing, but I am definitely not buying one until this keyboard stuff is fully resolved. I'm not going to put my wife through the same BS I've had to deal with on my work laptop.  \n\n", 'I’m not sure what is up with Mac engineering but they have gotten new hardware right for years now.   This current focus on the keyboard problem just obscures the fact that Mac in general are hardware nightmares.  ', 'Yep. MacBook Pro 2018 reporting in after two different keyboard replacements.  I even bought applecare because my 2016 MBP had to get its keyboard replaced like 3 times.  \n\n', 'I have a 2017 15" Pro. I use it practically daily and haven\'t had issues and each day that goes by I worry it won\'t hold up. I thought of selling it and trading in for a 2018 because of the keyboard but now it seems like that may not even be an option. I\'m holding out for the 2019 Pros, but I don\'t hold out much hope.', "I literally replaced mine a few months ago and keys are already a problem.  \n\n\nI just bought a Dell XPS 13, and it's a higher spec, given that it's 2 generations newer. It's a pity, but... Apple's just dropping quality for no real reason.", 'Why not just make it a little thiccer and make the typing experience 10 fold. It feels dead to me, bring back tactileness', "I was considering a MacBook but those new keyboards really do feel shit. Plus when I weigh up the windows options I feel like you get so much more bang for your money. This non apology from Apple really doesn't cut it. You pay a premium for apple products and they've neglected a problem that's persisted for 3 years. Get your shit together apple.", 'Ha...\n\nI had 3 flagship TouchBar 15" MacBook Pros. 2 x 2016, and 1 x 2017. 2/3 of those machines had failing keyboards.. That was a big enough number of to make me ditch the TouchBar MacBook Pro altogether and switch to an iMac Pro. (To their credit, I paid for 1 MacBook Pro, and Apple replaced it twice, first after 4 weeks, then the next one after 6 weeks, and then gave me all my money back 9 months after that - contingent on me buying the iMac Pro) ...', 'How does a company who engineers some of the best peripherals come up with this super shitty keyboard?!?!?!', 'MBP 2018 user here, I love the feel of the new keyboard over my 2012 MBP. I haven’t had issues yet, but I am terrified of the problem; luckily my company bought it with AppleCare+ that’s good through 2020. ', 'I just don\'t know about switching to windows. It\'s not bad looking and there\'s sooo much software, but the UI is wildly inconsistent across different apps (you can still dig up a settings app that looks straight out of winXP), MS is "listening" to everything I do and type (unless I block them),  and the entire system seems bloated with services and daemons I can\'t figure out (seems to be the case with every consecutive macOS version too).   \nBut then again, Apple is shifting to be a services company and is clearly neglecting their hardware quality. ', 'I must be the only one that loves the new MacBook, keyboard and all...and likes the insanely big track pad. The machine is a beast. My brand new 2018 has 32 gigs of ddr4 a 560 and the 2.2 ghz i7. It cuts block photo editing down to minutes instead of hours with over 160 gigs of photos at 30 megs a piece . It also lets me work on them while they’re converting to dng and even go from library to edit mode while they’re downloading. Reviews and YouTube scews people into thinking seconds matter. They don’t. Minutes definitely do but this is a safe buy and portable keyboards exist if you don’t want to use a bad keyboard on a laptop. It’s like ya’all are hoping this is going to be an hhkb keyboard or something. \n\nEdit: The android brigade has arrived! ', "I'm in the exact same situation. I fucking love the Mac trackpads. I don't think I can live without that trackpad. But I'm not buying this shit.", 'Apple has until my 2014 MBP dies to fix this. I’m skipping this generation. ', 'lenovo x1 carbon', 'I just got a 2018 MBP with Touch Bar for work. I’m normally a mechanical keyboard guy. I like the longer travel and the feeling of old mechanicals. When I’m docked I plug in a keyboard from a IIGS made in 1986. \n\nThat being said, I actually love the keyboard on the new MBP. If you don’t mash on the keys and just lightly tap, it’s a great experience imo. \n\nThat being said, “just got” means literally 3 days ago, so all my keys are functioning perfectly. If I start having problems I’m sure I’ll be in line to complain. ', 'I was in this position, but I pulled the trigger and went with a MBA2018 a couple of months ago.\n\nNo issues as yet, but I have to admit, this is the first time that I bought Apple Care for any product and that kinda sucks.', 'My 2017 MBP has been just fine keyboard wise, you’re probably fine trying one ', "My MBA's keyboard broke after using it for 10 days. :/ The keyboard is horrible.  Apple should be sued hard for this. ", "Super happy with Dell XPS 13 + linux. I can't stand Windows.", 'I’ve been using multiple MacBooks (over the last year or so and none of them had keyboard issues.', 'It aint bad until Im writing a paper. And then it’s real bad. ', 'Go with a dell xps or surface book honestly\n\nI got a MacBook Pro. Sister went with the xps. I’m jealous. I like macOS but the hardware is so godawful', 'Don’t do it. You will regret it. I purchased one of these computers and my keyboard has failed twice. I had 3-4 keys stop working and Apple replaced the entire keyboard under warranty. The problem has returned and my N key takes several presses to register, but now my warranty has expired. Wait for a 2019 refresh and see what they do. ', "The problem is, even if new macbooks with new keyboard are released this year, you still shouldn't buy them right away because the new keyboards might also suck.", "No need to go Windows, necessarily. The new MBP keyboards are one of several reasons that the laptop I just recently got to replace my 2014 MBP is my first non-Apple laptop in a long time. Got a System76 Darter Pro running Pop!\\_OS. A week in, and I have no regrets (so far, hopefully I won't ever).", 'Man, I hope mine is fine. I just got one for work and the keyboard, predictive typing, and the trackpad are some of my favorite things about it.\n\nStill with the crumbs?', 'Bought MBP with a Touch Bar last year, it is really bad. It is extremely uncomfortable and dust/stuff gets stuck in the keys all the time. My shift bar is permanently pressed on one side. I’ve found a keyboard cover helps slightly.\n\nIt’s really unfortunate because outside of the keyboard, it’s great a computer, it’s just so uncomfortable to use that I regret buying it.', 'What’s wrong with the 2015 MBP? ', "Bought a new Mac a month and a half ago and still can't get used to that bloody keyboard..Really pisses me off. Trackpad is great as always, just wish the keyboard wasn't what it is.", "I finally caved and bought a MBP yesterday.\n\nThe one reality I couldn't escape was that even with a broken keyboard, I'd still get 10x more work done on my personal computer (Mac) than my work one (Windows).", 'I remember the old Macbook Air which was super popular. For many people it was their first mac and the first time they had spent so much for a laptop. But everyone I have met have said "Im never going back, it was always something wrong with the cheaper PCs".\n\nI believe Apple should remember that the reason a lot of people are willing to spend much money on Apple is because "it just works". This is something Apple should have learnd long time ago. ', "I got tired of trying to get my iPad to work in our Windows Server/Exchange environment. I really wanted it to work, but the sandbox file system was just too restrictive.  I bought a Surface Pro 6, and love it. The track pad is very good and I find myself rarely reaching for a mouse. For me, that's a pretty big endorsement. ", 'I bought a HP ENVY last year and even though that is a low end machine (relative) it actually performs very well.   HP’s service and support sucks and due to that I can’t recommend their hardware.  I’m also running Linux exclusively as I actually hate Windows.  ', 'Surface line is spectacular ', 'thinkpad x1 carbon', 'I just bought a 2015 i7 with 16gb macbook pro off ebay for $500. Pair it with an eGPU and it does literally everything you could want from a pc (on top of that, you have the added bonus of how easy they are to upgrade the SSD, repasting the thermal paste, and how simple they are to undervolt so they last longer).   \n\nI recommend that route until they get around to fixing the current gen keyboards. ', 'I was in need of new laptop and opted for a Thinkpad X1 Extreme. I also prefer MacOS but was in need of a new laptop now. I do light content creation for work, but mainly end up using the device for typing, browsing and ms office use. The keyboard is amazing. I believe the X1E is .10mm thicker than the MacBook Pro. If they were just open to expanding the chassis a little they can implement a better design. But that is also questionable because the Dell XPS13 is slightly smaller in thickness than the MacBook Air and it has an infinitely better keyboard design.\n\n\n\nIts just annoying to see Apple being the ones who have to look at the success of competitors in almost every product line to improve their own. Hopefully in a few years when I am in need of a new laptop, they finally figure out some stuff.', "Try this. Consider the price you are willing to pay for a MacBook. Look for a Windows laptop from reputable brand at that same price. Try it out and see.\n\nMost common complaints against pc is it's slow and not premium etc...Except people compare $2.7k Mac vs $1k pc. Duh.\n\nBut if what's holding you back is mac os, then yea wait. My 2017 mbp and the keyboard is a total pos except I use it cause work bought it for me. No way in hell would I have paid for that.", "Just get a windows one.  Don't get a macbook pro until they release a model that fixes this flaw", 'Listen, I have a MacBook Pro with the new keyboards, I like typing on them and it became a pleasure, the way I’ve been avoiding the dust issue is taking compressed air to the keyboard once a week, my keyboard has held up and I’ve loved the device, hope that helps.', 'So would you say now is not a good time to purchase a new MacBook? I am in need of one, as my 2012 13in MacBook Pro (that has a dvd drive!) broke at the end of the last year... hope you don’t mind me asking, thanks :)', 'Get a decent pc and try Linux then. ', 'Buy windows install MacOS.\n\n', 'I have a 2018 MacBook Pro and love it. I have no issues and I like the travel. Just take care of your laptop and you’ll be good. ', "Wish Tim Apple would at least give us an OPTION.\n\n\n\nToo much muscle memory... I need my keys to move a little bit more.  Even the latest Apple Keyboard (bluetooth) is fine.  But the as-is (I've used gen 1,2,3)... are all too shallow.", "might I recommend Hackintosh? I'm fairly certain that you can find an XPS guide on the internet to make a hackintosh. You can get an Intel i5 8th Generation XPS, 4k Display and GTX 1050 for around 1600 after tax. Then boot a hackintosh on there.", 'I really like the butterfly keyboard surprisingly. I’ll be pissed if they go back to the 2015 ones. I have to use a 2015 MacBook for work. Hate the keys.\n\nHopefully they make make it more reliable without removing the satisfying click.', 'Already left for the surface pro 6 a week ago its bitter sweet but I gotta say I apple has just been so slow to update these laptops I have lost faith', 'I’ve already sent them feedback on the MBP basically stating this.  I encourage everyone to do the same. www.apple.com/feedback', 'It’s a very small percentage of people who have had issues with the keyboard.', "I've got the 2018 Pro and it seems fine so far. The keyboard isn't my favorite but it's been fine for daily typing since July.", 'I picked up a 2018 15”, I don’t mind the keyboard honestly. They do take some getting used to but they’re not so bad.', "I completely understand you being torn over these keyboards seeing how widespread this has been in the media. Personal anecdote here; I bought my 2018 Air last November and I have shared my experience with several folks on this sub. I have written several research papers on it (I am a History Major), as well as countless other projects and recreational uses and have come to rather enjoy using this keyboard. Would I like the buttons to perhaps have a bit more travel? Certainly. Have any keys failed as yet? No, but like other users have posted, this was the first time I have ever purchased Apple Care, and would recommend doing that.\n\n\n\nDon't let this keyboard thing hold you back from a product you'd like to buy. There's a greater chance nothing will ever happen to your keyboard than experiencing some kind of malfunction, based off of general statistics. But don't take the warnings lightly either, because people are reporting this situation to educate others. Personally, I type like a madman and only practice very basic upkeep and I love my MacBook Air. Just my two cents.", 'Seriously, the super vague number of people they say are affected and lack of a real apology is getting old fast. Their new keyboard design is crap. That’s the bottom line. They need to go back to what they had before. I’m still using my one inch thing MacBook Pro with zero complaints about its size. There’s no need to make a machine so thin at the cost of reliability and performance. ', "you can understand why a company that's been making millions of keyboards since the 70s would still be working out the kinks.", 'Bring back MagSafe because *$%&@* and put a USB2 on both sides because everything.', "Can't be a big number if nobody wants to buy them!", "My MacBook 12' (2017) has more than 1 year of use and the keyboard is functioning like it was the day I bought it.", "I don't mean this as a jab, I'm genuinely curious: What do you do with that ridiculous amount of tech? MacBooks, Surface Book, Pixelbook, *every* iPad, iPhone, etc.?", 'Why would you sell all your Apple products over one issue with one product? You’ll be the one who will take a loss on the sale.', "nah, you wont sell them, you'll move the goal post even further and put up with more crap.  Lots of people here saying that but in reality it just ends up being all talk.", "Not saying the keyboards isn't a major problem, but TBH it doesn't make sense that you'll sell all the products because of one flaw. Plus, you won't find any ecosystem better or more seamless than Apple's.", '*Congrats*, you\'re one among "small number" of users experiencing this problem. Apple assures you that most people don\'t have this problem. When your keys get stuck again, please remind yourself most people are *very happy* with their MacBook keyboards.\n\n**Apple:** *It\'s not us, it\'s you.™*', "Same here but on 2017 MacBook Pro w/ TouchBar. Down Arrow stopped working. They also changed the screen because some coating issue so I basically received almost new laptop (battery, trackpad, keyboard, top case etc) but to be honest I'm pretty sure next failure will happen just after my 4-year coverage ends. ", "How long did it take, if you don't mind me asking?", 'Same here same model too 😡😡', "And that's the only reason I'm postponing the buy of a Macbook pro since 2016. \n\nI really hope the 2019 version has a whole new keyboard design or else I'll skip this one too...", "iPad Pro white spots? I've been subscribed to r/iPad for years and didn't read about those issues quite like I did the keyboard issues on the Macbooks in r/apple and r/Mac. ", 'Think the outrage is just building steam tbh ', 'I’m sitting next to 8 years of work laptops (2 of them) and there hasn’t been even a hint of a keyboard issue on either. They are “upgrading” me for work now, and honestly I am not at all excited between the heating issues, Fischer price toy blinky blinky keyboard (I’m a pro, I don’t want gimmicky crap!), and the constant keyboard failures.\n\nApple has become what they were always accused of being, just expensive:( If I didn’t hate Windows and disliked desktop Linux so much:(', 'Hope mine lasts a bit longer. Battery starting to swell and oh what a surprise it isn’t user-replaceable.', 'Someone else said theirs was getting long in the tooth but I beg to differ. Mine still handles the adobe apps and FCPX pretty damn well. Perfectly happy with it.', 'Late 2013 <3', 'Maybe a "small number" of users have directly complained to Apple, but **100%** of the keyboards out there are flawed.', 'Like the HomePod and the charging bug. I’m crossing fingers because I need a laptop for my freshman year of college next year and I’m sure as fuck not getting one with this keyboard', "It's still a pretty big inconvenience if you ever do need it repaired.", "They actually explicitly claimed otherwise at the time. I'm getting real tired of the lying about defects. ", 'Realistically 2% or lower of all MacBooks with the butterfly style keyboard. ', "There's no way to tell because Apple won't release the actual numbers (which is understandable). ", 'I have the 2018 MacBook Air, soon as the return policy was over I had issues with double key presses. Support is virtually useless unless I can get into an Apple store, so just living with it for now (2018 isn’t covered by the program they launched and the issue isn’t covered by the normal warranty).', 'AFAIK only the 2018 pros (TB) and Airs have the butterfly keyboard with the membrane.', 'Easy, it was only ever test in a sterile lab that was sanitized before and afterward, so no dust or real life conditions. This is what happens when they push secrecy within Apple too far.', "With a PC, you don't HAVE to use Windows if you don't want to. You could even hackintosh some models pretty easily if you want. A little bit of research goes a long way.", 'The trackpads are nice, the current range is just too big. My older 2014 Macbook Air has a brilliant keyboard and good sized trackpad, with Magsafe and SD Card slot with DV Port. All in all, probably the best laptop I have ever owned. ', "On a windows you have touch screens, you don't need big trackpads anymore. And good windows trackpads with precision driver support are almost the same as that on macs", 'The new Lenovo Yogas have some of the best trackpads I’ve ever used ', 'Dude just get a keyboard cover. I got one so I would t wear out the keys and devalue the laptop, has a side effect of never letting the keys get anything under them. It’s about 8 months old and all the keys are like brand new. ', "This. 2015 maxed over here, but it's getting a little long in the tooth. I want me some 32GB ram goodness and Vega graphics. Smaller bezels would also be nice.\n\n*Grammar is difficult lol", 'could be a while. my 2010 is still going strong (not that im complaining much)', "My 2014 MBP's screen has died - using the HDMI cable. If the 2019's don't fix the keyboard issue I am switching to Lenovo.", "Newest one has Microsoft Precision trackpad drivers, so you get the full range of gestures.  I won't buy another MacBook while it has that awful keyboard.  ", 'I went to a Thinkpad + Linux and I am having a difficult time thinking of going back to a Mac for a laptop and I find it difficult to use my iMac. ', 'I have a 5th gen X1C mainly as a secondary Windows test machine. Love the keyboard compared to any Mac (also am a fan of the trackpoint still). Besides that, I love the matte display (get WQHD), and it\'s lighter than my MBP, yet 14", great battery life, oh and it still has legacy ports which is nice.\n\nMy top issues with it: trackpad obviously will never be as great as a mac, the control/function buttons are switched (why lenovo does this is beyond me but you can easily switch them), the onboard speakers are shit but the 7th gen coming out is supposed to be a lot better, the material attracts fingerprints and oil stains (but hey, I say why not poor your blood and sweat into your machine), and obviously being stuck with Windows overall...\n\nIf you\'re a keyboard snob or matte display kind of guy/gal I highly recommend it tho', 'An extra $250 on top of a $1200 computer that will inevitably require a $700 repair past the third year? Unacceptable. ', 'My thoughts exactly. Did the exact same thing.', 'My 2016 Macbook keyboard is perfectly fine too. ', 'What do you sue them for', 'Wasn’t dell officially selling them with Linux for a while?', 'As someone who uses Mac OS X, Windows and Linux, I’d be interested to hear what you can stand about Windows, specifically. ', "I have a 2018 MBP, and don't regret it \\[so far\\]. I haven't had any keyboard issues. ", 'Right? The keyboard issue isn’t that much different from other companies and just take care of your shit.', 'If only there were proper drivers for that graphics card on mojave.', "I'm in the same boat. I have a 13 inch MacBook Pro with Touch bar and the third gen butterfly keyboard. My job is to write words and I really like how fast I can type with the butterfly keys.\n\nI used an old MacBook Air recently and I felt really weird typing on it because of the smushiness. \n\nI don't think I could be able to go back to the smushier keys, even if I do have a problem with my E key that doubles sometimes...", "Is this a joke? It's not that bad until it breaks, like what this thread is about ", 'Good luck with your new macbook.', 'The issue with these keyboards is not if they will fail, but when.\n\nYou could use your computer completely fine for  a few years, but one day there’s going to be a rogue speck of dust that gets under your key and you’re immediately out 500$ for a replacement.\n\nThink about how long you want your computer to last and how much value you want out of it for the cost, will  a 500$ repair next year have you still saying it’s worth it? What about 500$ a year for the 3 years after that?', 'USB A, you mean. ', "you can't do mag safe and USB C. My work laptop is USB C and i have to say i actually appreciate it since I use a dock. I used to have to snap the entire unit into the dock and now its just a single USB-C connection. ", 'or maybe, this forum is full of over exaggerations and it is stupid to judge the vocal minority on here and project it as common rhetoric.', 'Worked at tech companies (mobile) and got in the habit. Now it’s all for small business “needs.” \n\nAlso, fiscally irresponsible. \n\n\nAlso not EVERY just one in each generation generally. Unless I need something specific for another employee. ', "He could trade-in every model and just always have what's new", 'Probably works at a tech company and gets free/heavily discounted stuff, or is just pretty fucking wealthy. Or fiscally irresponsible. \n\nEither way, pretty cool. ', 'Shock value', 'Ugh. I hate how true this is.', 'Is it really "one flaw" or is it the culmination of many flaws. Every single Apple device over the last few years has had a "gate" (and most devices before that). It\'s just becoming obnoxious. Bent iPads, Portless garbage keyboard MacBooks that no one wants, excessive iPhone pricing. \n\nThe only device that isn\'t a problem is the watch and to an extent the iPhone, and I do love my watch. But I bought and returned an iPad Pro 11 (bent) and my MacBook is now due for it\'s second replacement in 6 months. I just don\'t want to spend the time dealing with the problems. \n\nI could buy two ThinkPads and two OnePlus devices and just switch when one gives me a problem and still be out ahead financially. \n\nThe ecosystem is so overstated and filled with meaningless "Oh that\'s cool" features no one ever uses. \n\nThe only valuable unique apple things these days are the Watch and Apple Health. Every other ecosystem feature is trivially replicated on other devices. Most of the time to be better. iMessage and FaceTime are great I suppose, but again not deal breakers.', '"Since it\'s a small number we won\'t offer an extended warranty for this known detect because it\'s cost too much money while also being a small number"-Apple', "Well, apart from the Keyboard issues I'm really Happy with the MacBook. I even Like the Keyboard, when it works ;). Still, at 2000+€ you'd expect that.", "they're typing it wrong *™*", "Oh man, I'm a bit afraid of the after-waranty time. Especially since the 2018 mbp doesn't have the extended Keyboard program... For now I'm Happy about my externally like-new mbp :).", 'Did mine through the apple store, about a week and a half (but it was over the holidays).', "Actually, it was amazingly quick: brought it in yesterday, they told me it would be 4 days (topcase replacement incl. Battery, Keyboard, trackpad). Called me 3 hours ago and i'm on my way to get it now.\nI got a few keys replaced two weeks ago, so you maaaay count that towards the time. I don't though. Apple Store hamburg Jungfernstieg rules :).", "I'm not saying that Apple products are reasonably priced but does it really suprise you that 4 terabyte SSD costs more than 500 gigabyte one\n\nHigher end hardware usually costs more", 'True. I have an older MacBook Pro from 2013 which I used before, extensively. It have it now for home use and it still works like a charm. No issues with the Keyboard ever. \nUp to a dew years ago. Mac Laptops just worked. I hope they rethink their priorities at sone point. I liked my Macs for developing but at some point I might switch to Linux also for my laptop. ', 'Desktop Linux has gotten a ton better.', 'FYI you can have the battery (and whole topcase) replaced by Apple for $200.  Not the cheapest ever but not too bad.', 'I had to change mine already – about two years after the purchase (I keep my my MacBook plugged in and on all the time) and to be honest the process of changing the battery seems more intimidating than it actually is.\n\n[iFixit](https://www.ifixit.com/Guide/MacBook+Pro+13-Inch+Retina+Display+Early+2015+Battery+Replacement/45137) has a pretty straight forward guide – have you looked into it? \n\nEither way I would suggest you to swap it (or have it swapped) rather sooner than later – before it breaks your trackpad.', 'how can you tell if the battery is starting to swell', 'Good news is the 2015 MacBook Pros are still solid machines, and at pretty reasonable prices. Bad news is how hard they are to find.', 'not that i disagree with you but facts are supported by evidence. can’t convince* someone that a piece of info is an undeniable fact without presenting evidence ', 'So all the non TB are screwed?', 'I would agree that the trackpad is good (I have a Surface Pro 3), I would be concerned about Longevity however, I have had my SP3 for ~3 years now and the battery life is shit now (Can barely get 2 hours of just note taking on it now), the screen freezes up if I flip the type cover over and the type cover has been going in and out lately  ', "I have a new surface book 2 and it's fantastic. ", 'Surface tablets have their own issues with reliability and longevity. Make sure you do your research before making the switch. Atleast with the MacBook, the keyboard is the only issue. ', 'Nah, the trackpads are still on point. Source: have used both a surface book 2 trackpads and the latest type cover trackpads for a long time', "Yep. Surface and XPS laptops use Microsoft's Precision Drivers which are a million times better than Synaptic etc. \n\nAre they on the same level as Macbooks? No, definitely not. But they're accurate, reliable and smooth enough that they should no longer be a deciding factor in people's decisions between devices imo.", 'Same. The combo of the keyboard and trackpad size kills the laptop for me. \n\nIf the refreshed Surface Book 3 has a larger trackpad I’ll probably jump ship for the first non-MBP since 2007. ', "Can't speak about 15 inch, but it's perfectly fine on my 13 inch 2017", 'Just went the other way. Long time PC owner, surface user and I now am using a MacBook Pro. Everyone in my class switched to Mac if they had a surface because it’s sooo unreliable. ', 'It is not. It’s a pile of hot garbage beside a MacBook Pro of 2016+ vintage. ', 'I’m not gonna use a touch screen on a laptop. No ma’am.', 'With Apple’s, the technology disappears and I’m literally moving the cursor with my hand. 92-95% close to that is a WORLD of difference. Apple passes that specific point where the technology disappears under your hands. Just being *close* to that is very, very far away', "I'm not buying a 2000 dollar laptop with a keyboard so shitty you have to cover it up. No ma'am", 'Fingers crossed for a 2019 redesign', 'If they get a bit thicker I’ll be cautiously optimistic.', "tell you what I don't get my, wife has a lenovo yoga 3 pro, it has a regular keyboard the same as my MBPR early 2015, it's skinnier than the current macbooks, why did they go with the butteryfly keyboard I don't know.", 'Is this confirmed the release date? I am waiting for my tax refund to buy a new MBP and think I could hold off til June.', 'I have the 5th gen as well. It’s the best laptop I’ve ever had. I agree the speakers aren’t good but I never watch anything on it. All music and video watching is on my phone or iPad ', 'It’s an amazing laptop and I enjoy typing on the keyboard, but it’s a shame they’ve lost their bulletproof reputation.', "Same. Bought the 2016 TB 15in MBP on the day of release. I have a very slim keyboard cover that doesn't leave a print on my screen and doesnt cause my mac to overheat either.\n\nI use it everyday at work, carry it with me in my backpack, and have never had any issues with it. ", 'I think they still are. \n\nThe Developer edition XPS 13 is the one that comes with linux, and I believe they brought it back with the newest models.\n\nEDIT: YEah, they have dev editions with the new CPUs', "The hacks needed for getting specific drivers to work. The registry. The horrible file system layering with legacy hold-overs. Closed platform - dictated advertising and other decisions made for you. The licensing scheme. Backdoors, no audit for security. Lots more that I don't care to remember.", 'The 2018 ones are better but the problem still exists unfortunately. Mine is a late 2016. I still know of people who own the 2018 ones and have run into the same issue. ', 'U will when the problem appears after warranty', 'Same here, although I’m unsure as to whether I’ll be able to upgrade since cost is a concern, as I’m a student. Just sucks that I spent 2 grand a laptop with a defective and sometimes unusable keyboard.', 'Thank you so much for your insight :)', '> just take care of your shit.\n\nA laptop shouldn\'t require white-glove treatment. Apple dropped the ball with this keyboard design, and they should address it. The whole "Apple can never do wrong, it\'s always the end user" argument helps no one.', '> just take care of your shit\n\nexcept it’s a design issue? ', 'What the fuck. If apple took away speakers people would be like ‘man do you not have headphones?’ What is wrong with you people, you owe this company nothing. Just because you special pumpkins haven’t experienced any issues doesn’t mean that this isn’t a widespread and ludicrously well documented issue. ', ' [Link to get Nvidia Cards working on Hackintosh](https://hackintosher.com/guides/get-nvidia-graphic-cards-working-hackintosh/)\n\n\n\nAlthough I have never tried it myself ', 'Also pretty happy with my 2018 13" here - I was surprised to find out how much I liked the 3rd gen switches. Only issues have been that occasionally the space bar double taps, but I got a keyboard cover to give the keys a little more snap and protect them.', 'I’m talking about the typing experience. I saw a lot of people go on about that but I don’t mind it. ', "The issue is really that it's five hundred fucking dollars for a keyboard.\n\nI understand why it is, because it's a whole topcase replacement, but maybe on the next MBP they should design the keyboard to be replaceable?", "No, it's not when. It's still if.\n\nNot every keyboard fails. ", 'The issue with those keyboard covers is that when you close the lid it adds pressure to the other major defect of this laptop - the screen connection wire.\n\nYou’re saying yourself from a poor keyboard I’ll increasing the chance you get stage lighting.', '> have had a keyboard protector \n\nlink possible?', "Oh my sweet summer child, you should have a little bit more of an imagination. It's Apple. They could do almost ANYTHING if they put their cash to it. Point in case, [Thundermag](https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/922680849/thundermag-the-worlds-first-thunderbolt3-and-100w) on kickstarter. I backed this and am totally stoked.", 'Issues that warrant a statement are not over exaggerated. That and there is still a significant difference in keyboard failures today than in versions past. It’s not a vocal minority. It’s real world experiences and people are rightfully vocal about it because it’s a serious problem. ', "When even Apple sycophants like Gruber mention it, you know it's actually a problem. ", 'Every single person I have talked to about the new Macbooks has had reservations about them. Every single new laptop user in my company has complained about the keyboard, as well as various other issues, on $3500+ laptops. The issues may be a bit exaggerated overall, but they are prevalent across Macbook owners and it is NOT an isolated problem.\n\nAnother fun fact is that the new Macbooks are nigh un-repairable. Apple has used alternative versions of chips on their motherboards which are impossible to source, for no reason other than making it hard to inexpensively repair. This is an *extremely* unethical and underhanded practice.\n\nEdit: It\'s gotten widespread enough for Apple to start a [keyboard servicing program](https://www.apple.com/support/keyboard-service-program-for-macbook-and-macbook-pro/). I love how they added "a small number of users" to the description, like that matters at all if you are personally experiencing issues and just want to get it repaired.', "Pretty sure it's not. I have had two, and I thought I was alone in this problem until they were talking about it on ATP, and then I read some posts, then saw some tweets, then saw the articles, etc. This is pretty much a guaranteed problem. I don't have a third gen, so I don't know how common it is in the new one, but if it's as common as the first two, it's pretty bad. ", 'I’m on my third keyboard, and yeah Apple is second to none when it comes to processing this stuff. I chatted with a rep online and went with the mailing it in option. Only took 4 days from when I chatted with them and I had my laptop back. Fingers crossed I don’t have to send it in again tho...', 'Obviously a 4TB SSD will cost more than one with 1/8 the capacity. \n\nThe problem is how much more it costs. \n\nIn Canada, I can get a 2.5" 4TB SSD from Samsung for $930. \n\nBut to customize a 15" MBP with a 4TB SSD costs an additional $3,360. ', "Dev is the best on Linux. I can't go back to anything else.", "Thanks. Yeah, I'd probably just let them deal with it.", "Yeah, I looked at that guide but jeeze you gotta remove practically everything and *then* its still glued in. I've done my share of electronic repairs, so I can probably manage, but this is so much worse than it has to be, even compared to the previous MBP I owned (2010).", 'Press down on a corner of the machine and see if it shifts.', 'More-so than the 2018/new air models, but I had my 2018 keyboard fail the other day and would not put much confidence in any butterfly keyboard after my experience regardless of generation.', 'While they are good, the size is way smaller than a Mbp trackpad', 'XPS 15” range (at least from 2016) have awful speakers, however. Bought one for someone and wasn’t really impressed by that or the trackpad. Might have improved in subsequent years. \n\nMy gf totally lucked out when she picked up a 2013 15” Retina MBP with 512GB SSD and 16GB RAM a couple of years back. Got a great price from a friend. For general computing, it’s amazing. Excellent screen, keyboard, speakers and trackpad. ', 'I went from a 2016 MBP to an XPS. Can confirm they are damn good.', "> Atleast with the MacBook, the keyboard is the only issue.\n\nAnd the stagelight issue, which is supposedly fixed on the newest ones (but time will tell if there's another issue).", 'Yeah, still rocking my 2015 MBP and it’s still great, but keeping my options open for the next Surface Book, that could be something good.', 'i must be the only person that dislikes trackpads. give me a mouse any day.', 'I\'d argue that they\'re as close as they come. The one absolute drawback is the size. Even on the Surface Book 2 15" the smaller scale of the trackpad takes some getting used to, and this was coming from a 13" 2009 MBP', 'Was my opinion too. Changed in a week of using surface pro.\nI miss touchscreen on my work pc now %)\nJust try it. ', 'all understandable. \n\n\n\nI had the same battery swelling issue and replaced for $45 and havent had an issue since. the 2010 has user replaceable RAM. Are you talking about current models not having that?  Also, what do you mean it wont place some hi-res video files? with Quicktime, VLC player or just in general. I havent experiences this problem. ', 'What keyboard cover do you use? Everyone says not to use them cause of Apple’s warning ', 'I’m not sure how any of those things could possibly affect 90%+ of the users out there, but ok. ', 'The 4 year replacement program for the late 2016 is still in effect - they should replace your keyboard under that.', "I've got a 2016 Macbook and I've never had an issue with the keyboard. It doesn't affect everyone. ", 'It doesn’t require white glove treatment. I work at an Apple and a vast majority of keyboards brought in are user errors and even then there’s not many keyboards brought in at all. ', 'In a low number of keyboards. I work at Apple, 90% that get brought in (which is a relatively low number to begin with) are from “design flaws”', 'Lol not at all. Just take care of your shit.', 'Also horribly outdated. Notice that I specified mojave.', "You're responding to someone who's probably talking about reliability in a thread about reliability? ", "I've heard positive things about Moshi protectors.", 'You responded to the wrong person. ', "You can do both.  I can charge my Dell Precision with USB-C and the power jack at the same time.  Neither is strong enough alone to keep the battery from discharging if I'm running Visual Studio, but the two together doesn't discharge the battery.", 'what im saying is it goes against apple trying to make this simple and easy. a single connector does all of that. ', 'There’s been dozens of devices like this on Kickstarter.\n\nSo far, they’re all rubbish.', 'And one that almost every brand has. My partner has gone through 2 non Apple laptops due to keyboard issues. ', 'I’m not saying the problem doesn’t exist but I just don’t think it’s as common as the sub makes it out to be', 'I’ve had the exact opposite experience. This sub is the only place I ever hear about the keyboard being an issue besides preference on feel.\n\nEdit: lol, thought “my experience” would’ve implied personal interactions and not publications and shit, guess I expected to much', "Custom chips are usually for performance  and licencing/production/design cost reasons. \n\nFor example using sweeps, chips with failed or out of spec submodules that aren't necessarily for the final product that would otherwise go to waste; chips with design issues that can be worked around in a fully integrated system; chips that need custom mask-rom to work around some issues; chips whose design and manufacturing are audited/tracked end to end for security requirements.", "Well, crossing my fingers for you, too ;). One of the best things about Apple, imo, is the Attention to service. It's so nice to know that you can just haul your Problem to them and it will be dealt with. Kinda bad though that right now I feel like I'll rely on that Option :^).", "Yeah, maybe if it's a SATA SSD. Apple uses PCIE SSDs that are several times faster. If you shop for a third party M.2 drive of that size, the costs are similar to the Apple offering.\n\nFaster drives obviously cost more than slower ones but I don't know what would be the winning scenario?\n\nShip slower drives that have larger storage? \n\nShip computers with several different drives and the user has to choose whether to store files on the smaller and faster drive or larger and slower drive?", 'Yeah, it kind of sucks that the 2016 models got a price bump, especially the 15" model which you can\'t get without the touch bar that might or might not be useful to people.\n\n\n\nBut when comparing models its often most fair to compare the baseline models rather than maxed out custom configurations. I think it\'s a good thing to have an option for more powerful computers for those people who require the.', "What's Dev?", "That's actually pretty tame of things you have to remove. The most difficult part is really getting the battery out.\n\nIf you ever try to do something on a Windows laptop, it's going to be much more of a struggle, taking apart the whole thing to do something simple.", 'there’s your evidence then', 'Yeah I found this an issue on my friends new XPS 13 too! But I bought the 15” XPS and the trackpad is a good size! It’s like the 2015 MacBook Pro’s, so still smaller than the 2016+ models but still a good size imo ', 'Me too) ', 'Dell XPS 15 is windows version of the Mac. It’s trackpad is huge and smooth af. Highly suggest getting one\n\n-source: me owning one ', 'I bought the surface pro 4 and Issues with lag were common on google chrome (even just using facebook). Even the test taking software was slower on my surface than the 2014 MacBooks that other classmates had. Issues with freezing and with Microsoft onenote.\n\nStability was an issue. I paid for extra 2 year warranty and Microsoft said its a software issue and we have to go back to factory settings and see what’s wrong. Needed my only laptop for the weekend. Service wasn’t good, product was garbage, price wasn’t cheap. I would never recommend the surface. I paid $2k for garbage. My MacBook is running onenote better than my surface did. \n\nOther classmates had similar issues. Some were fortunate enough to experience it within the return window. Others like myself had to go buy a Mac on top of the surface because it was that useless. Now it’s my second screen to watch lectures. \n\nNote: I was always a PC user till August 2018. I am still getting to the Mac OS but it’s just so much more stable and smoother. ', 'I own a surface pro. They blue screen all the time. I’ve been through 2 of them now. ', 'I tried it, for months. No. No no no no\n\n\n\nIt’s cool the first time though', 'Oh dang, I misread your original comment. It will probably be fall :(', 'Repaving a machine? Are you kidding me. Affects everyone.', 'True. But it affects way too many. ', "I don't know how you're saying these keyboards aren't flawed. You're objectively wrong about that.", "except it doesn't. Dongles do not make things easier.", 'Okay, what machines were they? How much did they cost? What caused the failure? It doesn’t excuse the fact that Apple’s laptops are having serious issues when they didn’t exists before. ', 'This sub and the Wallstreet journal, but sure.', "Yeah, now that I think about it, you're right. I don't really recall seeing this being examined on a large scale anywhere else.", "If you check out Louis Rossman's [video about this](https://youtu.be/gmRd9IVE6dc) he points out an example of a chip replacement on newer motherboards to replace an extremely reliable, inexpensive, and commonly available chip with an alternate variant that is impossible to source.", 'I looked it up, it is indeed a SATA SSD. https://www.amazon.ca/Samsung-Internal-MZ-76E4T0B-AM-Version/dp/B07864XY8B/ref=sr_1_3?keywords=2.5%22+4TB+SSD&qid=1553717657&s=gateway&sr=8-3', '> If you shop for a third party M.2 drive of that size, the costs are similar to the Apple offering\n\nNo, they are not. Compare even a Samsung 970 Pro, which is performance comparable, and Apple is still far more expensive. ', '> If you shop for a third party M.2 drive of that size, the costs are similar to the Apple offering.\n\nThe only PCIe/NVMe 4TB ssds on the market are enterprise drives AFAIK', "Oh, fair enough, I wasn't aware of that.\n\nPersonally, a normal SSD would be plenty fast enough for me, so I'd like the option of getting just as much storage at a slower speed in exchange for not spending the entire cost of another laptop just on a larger SSD. So for me, the ideal scenario would be that they give the option of a SATA or PCIe SSD. If they're not going to give the option, then it'd at least be nice to be able to swap out the drive myself.\n\nEdit: Why am I getting downvoted? I was asked what the winning scenario would be, and to me, the winning scenario is to give more options to the consumer. It's just my opinion.", 'The MSRP for the basic 2014 15" MBP was $1,999. The new one is $2,399. That\'s a 20% price increase.', 'Developer (software)', "The advantage with a Windows laptop (well a Surface anyway) is that Microsoft offers a very affordable out-of-warranty replacement program. When this thing goes...it's gone. :(", 'The XPS 15 does have a very nice trackpad. Very clean and precise movement. The keyboard is also nice. I ended up getting a Thinkpad X1 Extreme, it went down to the deal I got, the ability to add a second M.2 drive and the warranty I added (4 year on-site, so I don\'t have to send it in for an assessment, someone will come to me within a few days of ticket, this is a benefit of buying a "business" line laptop from Lenovo). I\'m glad on the windows front, the competition is great and most of the devices in this range are comparable in quality.', "It's not that big and still not as good as Mac. \n\nAlso, Dell laptops are full of bugs and driver problems. Lenovo is way better but you have to give up privacy to China. ", "As a counter anecdote ~5 people (+ me) were using SP4s in an AI/ML class, and even while doing ML stuff on the CPU we didn't see any of these issues.", 'You can eke out a bit more performance if you use mpv and meddle with the defaults. I have the Mid-2010 white macbook (same specs as yours), and it can play 1080p 10-bit HEVC files quite well.\n\n1080p60 looks like beyond its capabilities though.', 'Sure. I suppose I\'m thinking of average users. I consider myself an above average user and I haven\'t had a problem worth mentioning with any of my 5 Windows machines in years. Not since Windows XP have I had any kind of notable complications. No driver problems. No registry problems. No file system problems. Nothing. Windows 7, 8, 8.1 and 10. Actually I though of one problem, I haven\'t been able to get my Win 10 ThinkPad  to print wirelessly to the cheap Brother laser printer I bought at Walmart. Tried everything I can think of and it just won\'t print. Other than that... i can\'t think of a thing.  \n\nMy point is for the vast majority of people Windows is just fine.  Unless you\'re completely inept and go to sketchy websites and download random things or you\'re at the other extreme, a 1%\'er power user or IT guy, then Windows is perfectly serviceable and utterly reliable and it has been since Windows 7. Is it perfect? Absolutely not, there are vestiges of old legacy Windows stuff still lying around. The UI is still a little bipolar with some classic Windows looking stuff and other "Modern UI"/UWP themed control panels. Search on Windows still isn\'t as good as it should be. The file system could be better. Windows is a victim of its own success in many ways. But for most people, it\'s just fine and there\'s a lot of irrational hate out there for it. I should know, I used to be an anti-Windows snob myself.  I\'d actually be happy to use Linux exclusively and have for a few brief periods in my life, but at the end of the day I need to be able to use mainstream productivity apps like Photoshop and Illustrator and to be 100% compatible with the rest of the world. It\'s a lot easier for most people to do that running Windows. ', "I agree it's way too many, and Apple should be responding to this way better than they are... But people are acting like it happens to a majority of Apple laptops, and it simply does not. ", 'By your logic, every brands keyboard is flawed. Only a certain percentage of keyboards experience issues, just like every other brand.\n\nYour comment is factually wrong.', 'Except they do because most of the general public hardly use those kinds of things. For those that do they have dongles solution. All my video production and photography friends still use Apple products, it’s not that big of a deal.', "apple is moving toward full cloud based / wireless integration which negates the need for any actual wired connections. I haven't used a USB thumb drive in close to 5 years since i route everything through icloud. my printer is wireless, my additional mouse is bluetooth. the only time i actually connect anything to my computer currently is to sync my phone for music and movie since the wireless syncing is still abysmally slow. once they fix that issue I don't have too much of a reason to connect anything other than power to my laptop. ", "Then use things that work with USB C if you don't want dongles/docks.\n\nThis has always been Apple's way, make things uncomfortable too soon to help move the bar to where they want it faster.\n\n- SCSI & Serial Port \n- VGA\n- DVI\n- Headphone Jack\n- Ethernet\n- Floppy Disk\n- DVD Drive", '1,000+ each. Don’t remember the specific types, one was Microsoft, and can’t remember the other, I think Dell. \n\nAnd your point doesn’t take into account it’s not just an Apple issue.', 'To counter- I go to school at a notoriously rich private university so I see a lot of people with 2016+ MacBook Pros and have heard very little about keyboard issues from those I ask. This is anecdotal and so is your experience, doesn’t mean that’s the case for all consumers', 'Figured it being my personal experience was implied. Guess I expected too much', 'https://www.wsj.com/graphics/apple-still-hasnt-fixed-its-macbook-keyboard-problem/', "Sounds like they did it to fix an issue without having to retool, that's more than reasonable.\n\nRossman is an excellent technician and his observations are often insightful but but he knows next to nothing about the realities of systems and product engineering and his observations are also by nature of his work very unrepresentative of the population.\n\n", 'Show me a 4TB 970 Pro', 'That’s not how Apple works.', 'and that 2014 machine didn\'t have a dGPU. The starting price for a 15" with a discrete GPU was $2500', 'No problem. Man I was so hyped for the surface pro 4. Wanted it to be good so bad... thought it was gonna be a Mac killer... instead I ended up leaving PC for the first time ever.\n\nMake the decision that’s right for you but I had to mention this for those thinking of switching. ', 'I took mine back. I thought I might like having my iPad and a MacBook all in one with SP6. I couldn’t believe that this was to be the pinnacle of windows portable pcs. The system was slow and I ran into a ton of issues with system apps duplicating themselves and crashing the whole system. I was a day into owning it and had to exchange it. The second one wasn’t much better and two days after getting it I had to reinstall windows. \nI couldn’t even get a pdf copy of my d&d character sheet to scroll smoothly on it and it’s just 4 pages. \nIf you’ve ever used an Apple Pencil on an iPad, you’ll see the surface pen is a joke. \n\nOh but wait, it comes with Candy Crush installed out of the box so I guess it has that going for it. ', "Nah. Lots of issues. Registry is a design issue. As someone who's always tasked with helping everyone with their computer issues since 1984, I don't help them unless they are ready to use Ubuntu or another distro that has enough use out there. When I see Windows, it's a no-go. Further, I'm only happy if I'm on the right side of history and having open source platforms, open standards and open file formats is a huge bonus for everyone around. I'm incredibly happy to support libre office, inkscape, gimp, krita, blender, etc. No money involved, expiring licenses, data ownership issues. I don't like remembering searching for all those license keys after repaving.", 'Agreed. ', "We're not measuring by every manufacturer, we're comparing to fucking past macbooks. The butterfly mechanism is less durable than previous macbook keyboards, to the point of people getting them replaced twice or even more. \n\nAlso, are you saying they DIDN'T change the keyboard design? Because the old ones didn't have this issue. GPU failures and other nonsense, but not a significant amount of keys sticking or failing outright. You know why? Because they fucking changed it and it's worse now. Why do you think they stuck a membrane into the second refresh of the current chassis? To try and fix an inherently flawed fucking design.", 'you guys must not do much outside of an office them, live sound guy, we hate the new macbooks and iphones with no headphone jack.  Recording dudes hate them because of the T2 chip issues making audio work almost impossible in some cases.  Looks at thinkpad p50 I/O, laughs at macbook.', 'You’re point doesn’t take into account what caused the issues on the PC keyboards. There’s an important distinction between a keyboard failing under normal use due to a massive design flaw that has not been fixed in three years verses... who knows what?', 'Many report getting 4.7GHz to 4.9GHz with air cooling. These guys got [4.8GHz](https://www.techpowerup.com/reviews/Intel/Core_i9_9900K/18.html) and this user on reddit got [4.97GHz](https://www.reddit.com/r/intel/comments/9rcbdw/9900k_5ghz_runs_cool_on_air/).\n\nGetting below 4GHz is just sad.', "What you say is true, I may have overstepped my bounds in denouncing the practice. However, what I have heard so far seems reason enough to try and avoid it whenever possible. It's simply not OK to change the fundamental hardware of the technology you sell and not communicate the decreased likelihood of repair to your customers. I guess my real beef is with advertising and its fetishisation of all of the positives of a product without ever communicating the negatives (unless forced to do so by law like medicine, alcohol, or cigarette commercials). Imagine if you bought a brand new Tesla and drove it about 50,000 miles, needed the tires replaced only to find out you need to pay $15,000 to replace all the motors and wheels as well?! I have no doubt that practice would quickly ruin Tesla's reputation and they would go out of business as it suddenly becomes a terrible investment (uh, like Saab). Why the hell isn't Apple also held to a high standard of mass production? A disposable product is a terrible product.", "Can't but if and when one comes out I'll be able to easily swap it for my current one which, if I understand correctly, you cannot do.", "I wasn't saying it was likely. They asked what the winning scenario would be, and I told them my version of that: either give me the option to choose what exactly has to stay in there, or let me swap it out whenever I want. I just swapped out the HDD on my 2011 MBP for an SSD and it's a huge improvement. I know Apple has left that behind, but it's nice to be able to do stuff like that.", 'Oh yeah, that’s right. Mine was $2,400 *with the education discount.*', 'I agree all that feels great. I guess I just got tired of not being 100% compatible with the rest of the world 100% of the time. If you do professional grade work with photos, vector graphics and video editing the Linux clone apps just aren’t up to snuff. There’s far too much compromise there. If I didn’t need those apps though and all I did was write and email now I could go back to using Linux full time as my only OS. Unfortunately that’s just a luxury I don’t have now. But I do agree that most average users would be just fine on a friendly Linux distro for doing what most people use their computers for. I really do wish the Linux desktop could break into the mainstream. Who knows it might have done it when it began to spread via netbooks back in the early-mid 2000s if Microsoft hadn’t been trying to swat it back. \n\nThe fact remains though that most average users could get buy just fine with Windows or Linux these days and are unlikely to run into any notable problems. As long as they aren’t deliberately trying to get malware on Windows 10 and they don’t just start copy/pasting random commands into the Linux terminal. Windows has been boringly reliable for a long time now. We aren’t in the Windows 95 or XP days any more when it truly was a horrid experience. ', 'Lol that’s completely different from saying they’re objectively flawed (which is what you said and just wrong). It’s still small percentages in the grand scheme of things. \n\nKeep saying “fuck” though, it makes your argument a lot better lmao ', 'Wait the T2 affects audio?', 'So why are you using it then? You just listed a bunch of reasons why they don’t work for you yet you appear to still be buying the product. ', 'It’s almost as if it’s personal preference... lmao ¯\\\\\\_(ツ)_/¯ \n\nLooks at comment, laughs at person', 'If you’re asking how it broke, nobody ever gave an answer but it wasn’t abuse or damage if that’s what you’re asking. Point still being it’s an issue across the board.', 'Lol what the hell are you talking about? I have no idea how that’s relevant or what it means? Is it even about keyboards?', "That kind of regulation also makes it incredibly difficult to being products to market, you end up with smaller pool of competitors as well as compeeting products. That reduced pace also reduces the pace of advancement which clearly towards integration and that's a big win for resource effiency through increased durability and production effiency.\n\nRepairability should be thought as a means rather than an ends. \n\nI think you're also greatly underestimating how often specific subcomponennts and submodules get retooled/redesigned based on availability of parts and feedback from the field. And then there's global IP law.\n", 'I have a 1TB ssd in my MacBook Pro. I dont need a larger drive in it. If I need more storage, I can use my 3tb spinning usb drive, my 96TB networked spinning NAS, or my 6TB NVMe networked NAS. If I end up needing more flash storage  on the go I can always pick up a Samsung X5 SSD to use.', 'Yeah.', "Because the 2015 macbook is too slow for what I do.  Those two computers aren't really comparable, one is in a completely different class.  I have 32gigs of ram, a much much faster cpu, two ssd's and a platter drive, matte screen, cooling is a lot better.  I also can't stand osx so what would even be the point.", 'Work buys them not me.  I use what the event provides.  I would never buy an apple product with my own money.', 'You say issue across the board, I say more data is needed. What were the failure rates on previous versions of those PCs? Because when it comes to MacBooks... it was nothing like this ever before. \n\nThen again... no matter what.... it’s still no excuse for Apple to be having these issues. It’s not like the silicon is to blame. Saying it’s “an issue across the board” is disingenuous to the issue at hand. Apple made a design decision to make their laptops thinner and in doing so made a new kind of keyboard on their own. It turned out to be a bad design yet Apple still issues it all these years later. There’s no excuse for this. Apple is a premium brand that charges premium prices. Yet we’re all stuck with cheap PC quality. ', 'Sorry. Wrong thread. ', "Sure. I probably won't need a larger drive either. But if I do (I have in the past) it's as easy as swapping it out and problem solved. Or let's say my drive breaks and my computer is out of warranty. I really like this machine, so I get a new drive at 10% the cost of buying a new laptop, pop it in and go to town.", 'With that much demand for power, speeds, disk space and cooling why are you using a laptop at all? It would appear you’re using the wrong device for the job. Why aren’t you using the Mac Pro? ', 'In another thread on here someone brought up stats where Mac was second to Lenovo in supposed malfunctions like this (ahead of Dell, Microsoft, etc.) and that it’s been reported that with the new transition it’s gotten worse. There’s no numbers on the new keyboards though so it would be interesting to statistically check but either way I can’t imagine it’s that drastic in comparison to other brands.\n', 'Lol all good. I was super confused', "> let's say my drive breaks and my computer is out of warranty\n\nOr lets say your computer is unfortunately broken/destroyed beyond realistic repair. In many instances you could just pull the SSD from the machine and pop it into either a new computer, or into an external enclosure to recover data. Not on the new MacBooks unfortunately.", "Because my work is mobile, location recording, live sound, occasional studio recording.  Can't really haul a desktop around to do that stuff.  \n\n> It would appear you’re using the wrong device for the job.\n\nlol how did you wager that? I'm using exactly the right tool for the job, a fucking workstation laptop.  My requirements are as much cpu speed as I can get, a screen you can see in the sun, and as many I/O options as possible, and it has to be mobile.  \n\n>Why aren’t you using the Mac Pro?\n\nbecause I'm much better with windows than osx, and I prefer how windows behaves in regards to audio.  Thing is though I'm an engineer, which means that I understand the fundamentals of the work I'm doing thus I can work with just about anything.  If there's a mac that's provided for me.  Everyones using either macbooks or workstation laptops in my line of work, I guess we're all just using the wrong tools for the job lol.  \n\ntl;dr don't own any mac stuff because nothing they offer fits my needs.", 'Yep :/', 'Did you just admit you’re not even using a Mac? Why are you complaining about a device you don’t even use? This is becoming more laughable the longer it goes on. ', 'It really is unfortunate that apple refuses to use NVMe and sodimm slots on the new Macs. I would literally pay more, and give up a good amount of battery capacity for normal NVMe drives and upgradeable ram. New dell 13" laptops can take 32gb of ram with two 16gb sticks, and soon they\'ll likely be able to take 64Gb with two 32gb sticks.\n\n\nedit: according to intel ARK, the U series i7\'s are technically limited to 32gb of ram but I would be interested in seeing someone try 32gb sticks in one ', "I use them just about every other day, it depends on the work and client. \n\nAll of this was laid out in my other posts, you just can't read.", "The thing I hope Apple realizes is that users (like myself) of other platforms like Dell's XPS line need not compromise. Other platforms are just as good at an uncomfortably large number of use cases and cheaper than Macs at that. \n\nI used to own a 2016 MacBook Pro and after a slew of keyboard issues (along with two display issues and a power adapter issue) I switched to an XPS 15. It was when I realized I had been without my computer for about 3% of the time I'd owned it that I knew it couldn't go on any longer. I took a good long look at my tech stack, realized there was no software I used that relied on macOS and switched away.\n\nBought an XPS 15, upgraded to 32GB of RAM and a 1TB Samsung 970 Pro SSD, put Fedora on it and haven't looked back. My user experience is so much better now for one single reason:\n\nthe keyboard.\n\nI am not being the least bit dramatic when I say that I have had several unpleasant *dreams* about using that awful butterfly keyboard.", ">\tyou guys must not do much outside of an office them, live sound guy, we hate the new macbooks and iphones with no headphone jack. Recording dudes hate them because of the T2 chip issues making audio work almost impossible in some cases. Looks at thinkpad p50 I/O, laughs at macbook. \n\nThis is your original post in the thread. your complaining about it the macbook not doing something you dont even use it for. \n\nSo again you're complaining that a device you don't use for specific work isn't doing what you want it to for that situation. man thats some mental gymnastics you are doing there. That's like complaining your Mustang is really poor as towing even though its not rated to do so or even has a tow hitch. ", 'dude go do something else my god', "yet you keep coming back here to continuously complain that a product doesn't do what you're not even trying to to use it for. hahahahahaha", '*I knew it all along, had to be a mistake.*\n\n*Do you think that after what you did to Han that we’re going to trust you?!*', "Update: statement from Apple clarifies that WordPress is indeed a free app that doesn’t need to offer IAP. Includes an apology for any confusion Apple caused: \n\n***\n\nposted by [@gruber](https://twitter.com/gruber)\n\nPhotos in tweet |  [Photo 1](http://pbs.twimg.com/media/EgDcIdfXoAUskTy.jpg) \n\n^[(Github)](https://github.com/username) ^| ^[(What's\u2005new)](https://github.com/username)", 'Can someone explain what happened? I am out of the loop', '[https://twitter.com/markgurman/status/1297281858065981442?s=20](https://twitter.com/markgurman/status/1297281858065981442?s=20)\n\n"To clarify: Apple says WordPress did submit an app update that did let customers buy upgrade plans via the app, but not through in-app-purchase. It doesn’t appear this was ever on the App Store though."\n\n\n\nIf this is true, than completely changes the narrative for me.', "Why is everyone seem to be misunderstanding what happened? Most of what I read makes it sound like Apple is forcing Wordpress to add IAP (so they can profit). \n\nWhat happened: Wordpress pushed an update that contains a link to their paid hosting plans. This is not allowed - the same case with Spotify and Netflix. \n\nSo their options are: 1) Remove the link to hosting plans, and 2) Add IAP for the said hosting plans.\n\nIt's not like they chose an open-source app and held their updates hostage until they give in and pay them. Of course the link to the hosting plans won't show up on the current up, it is still in the offending update.\n\nTo be honest, I am surprised no one is calling Wordpress out for the misleading tweets as though they have no knowledge of the link to the hosting plans that they added. \n\nThe apology from Apple is just them being polite to Wordpress.", 'Apple’s apologizing because they’re currently in court and they don’t want this to bite them during the trial', 'But the fanboys here told me Apple did nothing wrong and Wordpress wasn’t being honest.\n\nSounds like a certain other crowd that ignores all reality just to convince themselves an entity they like can do no wrong', 'Could some one clarify for me, does apple allow apps in the App Store to link out to 3rd party payment vendors? I understand for in game currencies definitely not, but I know some apps which just open a payment merchant transaction in a webview, so I think it’s allowed right?', 'BULLSHIT! Was a piss weak apology. How the fuck could there be any confusion here?', 'Looks like Apple got caught on some bullshit on their part. I honestly don’t have a single dog in this whole App Store fight - the entire thing is a fucking mess of greedy companies, exceptions that have been carved out, attempted bastardizations of a platform, predatory business models, etc. I’m honestly here to spectate. Not a single side can launch an attack that can’t be immediately countered with bullshit they’ve engaged in themselves.', 'Apple apologizes means "we\'re sorry we got caught." Just like all those apps and those "glitches" that were accessing the user\'s clipboard.', 'Still scummy of Apple not to let the app indicate that other plans are available', "This is why Apple must be regulated. Now they're just rage banning developers without thinking about it. This represents a pattern, with Epic and now WordPress. They need to be slapped.", "This is getting ridiculous. Apple has far too much control. The courts all over the US and EU would love to intervene. Apple's easy money days are soon going to be over.", 'Textbook non-apology.', 'I ruined the joke?', 'Apple sucks ass. They make great products though. Go watch any of those “I’m a Mac and I’m a PC” commercials and tell me it doesn’t make you want to throw your iPad out the window.', 'My hands are dirty too, what are you afraid of?', 'Tim Lando?', '"Since the developer removed ... it is **now** a free stand-alone app".\n\nSo basically Apple bullied Wordpress into removing something from the app.', 'Basically, Apple wouldn’t let WordPress update their app until they put in in app purchases which would lead to them getting 30% of the cut. The app itself was free and didn’t charge to use it fully (it uses open source to create websites I believe) but a different aspect of the business/sister company does charge for purchasing of domain names. Story was that because that sister company existed Apple the made the WordPress app include IAP that would allow people to buy domain names through the app, even though the app didn’t deal with that.', 'By this logic every dev should create a seperate platform just for iOS which has no reference to any existing documentation which might even mention the dollar sign.', 'Where Apple is concerned, people are more interested in being contrarian than in being right.', "[As said so eloquently in the Twitter post,](https://twitter.com/stroughtonsmith/status/1296983858798354437) “it's almost like Apple is habitually abusing its position to extract cash it doesn't deserve from businesses it has no right to touch.” This is a flagrant abuse of power.", "Yes, if you sell something that's consumed outside of the app, you have to use 3rd party payment and indeed can. Just like Walmart, eBay, or McDonald's, etc. They can use their own payment system to charge for the burger.", 'Really? There’s mass confusion between Wordpress.org and Wordpress.com as is.\n\nThere’s plenty of confusion here.', 'because wordpress added a payment page?? do some research you child', 'They got caught doing what? It clearly says it’s because the developer added a payment screen.', 'I think you are mentally unwell and you need to grow up, leave subreddits of products you hate, get a hobby.', 'Why? The app is freeloading if they do that', 'The pattern I see is one where Apple has been pretty consistent in enforcing their App Store rules, and disgruntled developers are taking to airing their grievances online, often leaving out just enough details to make it seem like they are being unjustly singled out by Apple. \n\nRemember the story of the boy who cried wolf?', 'Apple has just 15% of the smartphone market, hardly a monopoly by any definition. Since they don’t license iOS, the platform is literally Apple’s to play judge, jury and executioner with. Legally, Apple has done nothing wrong.', "You can install alternate app stores on Android, and apps can install apps.  This lets eg Humble Bundle distribute and sell games without an app store per se, and it lets Amazon and some large Chinese and Russian companies have their own app stores too.  It's basically like Windows with the Microsoft and Steam app stores coexisting and nobody is angry or at a loss because of it.", "You've already gotten a lot of answers but there's an important point being missed.\n\nThe 30% cut is insane. It made sense back in the day when it was just to pay for apps, but now that it applies to things like subscriptions to services, it's hindering competition and companies ability to thrive.\n\nThe cut is insane on all platforms. But just because android is doing it doesn't mean it's ok. Developers have to start pushing back somewhere. Looks like they're starting with the apple store", 'Play store allows apps to have links to other paying methods.', "No it doesn't because it's wrong lol", 'Afraid?', 'Which they did remove weeks/months ago.\nhttps://www.theverge.com/2020/8/22/21397424/apple-wordpress-apology-iap-free-ios-app', 'Yes, they “bullied” Wordpress into complying with the rules.', 'It’s a bit more than that. They submitted an update that had a link to a payment website which is a no-no. Apple told them if they wanted payments in the app it has to be in app purchases, nothing else is allowed (it’s been that way for years). Wordpress finally submitted an update without that link so they are okay per the rules', 'I hate WordPress.org/.com they’re so confusing.\n\nWhen i started out years ago it confuses the hell out of me and other clients.\n\nCouldn’t they rebrand or something?', 'Oh ok, thank you for replying. Sounds like more of a misunderstanding here.', 'There’s a little bit more, the sister company is just commercial Wordpress (they do sell domains and hosting on your own domain is a big feature of paid plans but not the only one) and the app can manage both paid and free. So it’s not as arms length as them just existing and selling domains - you could pay the commercial company and use the app for your paid site. \n\nI understand that Apple’s actual problem was that through the app you could open a support page in a webview, and from there you could eventually navigate to a page where you could purchase a subscription via their website ie not using IAPs. This has been an issue for other apps in the past. So the fix was that they removed that ability to navigate from support to payment and then Apple were satisfied.', "That' basically what they have to do, unless they are big enough to absorb the hit of giving 30% to Apple.", 'Yeah. They do. It’s called an iOS App.', "Most people don't know what to think, they just follow what they read and take it as their own opinion. This is why fake news is so powerful nowadays.", "As I mentioned, it is as though Wordpress was unaware of the link to the hosting plans which is why the update was held. They removed it and it was allowed right away.\n\nI'm not saying Apple is not greedy, but I see why they don't allow payment for electronic goods aside from their IAP. \n\nIf they allow apps to ask payment through their own payment gateways, soon every app will have its own store.", "Those references were removed weeks/months ago and apple still refused to approve it.  It wasn't until it became public that they changed their mind.", "ToSes aren't legally binding documents.", 'I still think that\'s quite the abuse on Apple\'s position, why do they have the right to make you pretend payment plans don\'t exist or make it mandatory to offer IAP?\n\nSounds like censorship to me, like "If we don\'t get a cut, you can\'t advertise in your own app about your own service!!".', 'Yeah. I wouldn’t be apologising to Wordpress. I don’t care if their app is free, they should be charged for access to apples marketplace.', 'Thx', 'Well duh! Apple could have simply told them to remove that option, which Wordpress since have done. But no, Apple instead tried to strong arm Wordpress into adding in-app-purchases.\n\nDo you understand now daddy?', 'Actually the links to the non-iOS subscriptions were in the documentation and not connected to any payment flows, which is quite out of-of-the-way and not unreasonable, and that indirect linkage was even removed from the app but Apple rejected it even then.\n\n> Apple is positioning this as the developer — WordPress — having done the right thing \n\n...\n\n> But as far as I’m aware, that didn’t happen today: it happened weeks or months ago.\n\n...\n\n> What’s more, Mullenwag told us that he had previously offered to strip other mentions of the paid plans out of the app \n\nhttps://www.theverge.com/2020/8/22/21397424/apple-wordpress-apology-iap-free-ios-app', 'Okay, Tim.', '“Freeloading” is subjective given value apps bring to the IPhone and related ecosystem.', "60 million websites are powered by WordPress including many of the top sites on the internet, it's actually one of the most-popular, pure-open source projects of all time and its peers are software like Firefox.  They're not freeloading off Apple demonstrating billing outside of Apple's ecosystem, they've been popular outside of iOS for nearly twenty years.\n\nhttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WordPress", 'I fail to understand this. What interest do users have in defending Apple here? Chances are prices of apps will be cheaper for you if iOS allows installation of apps outside the AppStore.\n\nUnless you’re employed by Apple, what interest do you have in defending this? Genuinely curious.', "Thx for the answer I really didn't know this I just wanted to make the joke but I screwed up the joke", 'and most of those apps steal your info and spy on you', 'The 30% cut is standard. As for subscriptions, that cuts to 15%.', 'Except that story proves they *didn’t.*', 'I heard that was it as well (after the post) but that Wordpress had submitted it without the payment issue and Apple still didn’t budge. FWIW', 'Why didn’t epic just do it that way, smh', "They could rebrand and avoid the confusion.  But it's not in Automattic's business interests to avoid said confusion, or Mullenweg's personal interests to create fragmentation in his brand portfolio while pushing for monopolization of the web space.  So, they never will.", 'So they should update all the wikis or docus that link to iOS app as well? \n\n\n\nEU will have a say on that.', ">\tThis is why fake news has always been powerful.\n\nFTFY. Remember everyone, it’s only fake news if it’s different from the tale you’re supposed to believe at any specific time. Remember Romney, “the 1980s, they're now calling to ask for their foreign policy back.” What’s fake news again? It seems like we had it back in 2012 too... people were just too ready to gulp down the cum.", 'Apple would have to compete on price and feature set instead of having a monopoly. \n\nThe digital/physical goods thing is basically arbitrary. No one would be on board with paying Apple 30% on the purchase of a car on eBay. Why should they get 30% on something that they don’t touch at all?', 'I believe the story is that WordPress at some point submitted an app that mentioned payment options. That was rejected with Apple flagging it as requiring IAP to be used instead of the payment options for approval. WordPress then submitted an update to remove the mention of payment options months ago. The update was rejected with Apple still requiring that the update enabled IAP despite the latest submission no longer mentioning payment options. Now, after the public attention, Apple stopped blocking that WordPress update.', "Accepting payment through their own gateways does not mean allowing people to download apps that aren't in the app store.\n\nApps should be able to accept payment for services using whatever platform they want, just like the internet. Apple's payment platform should have to compete", "That's standard for other app stores as well though. 30% for Sony, Microsoft, Google, Valve...", 'https://twitter.com/markgurman/status/1297281858065981442', 'What, how do you know that? This story is about an unreleased version that was submitted for review, not the version that was on the App Store.', 'That’s not true *at all*.', 'You’re right, Apple could actually dump them without a reason.', 'Think if it like renting a part of a mall building to run your business out of.\n\nThe App Store is a mall, and your store is WordPressApp.\n\nYou pay an annual “rent” via the developer fee, but you still have to pay your “utilities” - at a mall this would be electricity and other things like janitorial services; at the App Store it would be things like server usage and payment processing.\n\nClearly a 30% cut is a lot more than most want to pay but it’s patently absurd to pretend that no one should pay a cut at all.', 'But this just hurts consumers and the overall experience.', 'how does apple know they added it by accident? if they want to add payments, they need to use in app purchases. it’s that simple. how is that strong arming.', 'It works both ways. iOS apps make on average like 5 times the money per user(whether they’re ad supported or paid/IAP)', 'They don’t though.', 'I personally want Apple as the middle man. I don’t want Apps to be able to pull out and not go through Apple’s vetting process. I don’t want apps to be able to force me to pay through external methods that may or may not be secure. I don’t want to give developers a bunch of personal information to use their application.\n\n\niOS is a big part of why I choose Apple, but the fact that they have some leverage to push back instead of giving it entirely to the Facebooks and Epics of the world to treat customers like dirt is a close second. The ecosystem is fantastic and it’s in large part because there are standards to distribute Apps for iOS.', 'Simple - I honestly don’t think Apple is in the wrong here. I also genuinely believe that the current App Store model is what allows for the greatest amount of good for the greatest number of users. \n\nIt’s not just about price. What’s stopping Epic from hosting an app that did not pass App Store review for some reason (say it’s blatant spyware), which then subsequently gets downloaded by children? For the sake of saving a few dollars here and there, you are compromising the safety and security of an entire swath of less tech-savvy users. \n\nI am a teacher in Asia. I am not employed by Apple and have never received a single cent from Apple for any of my posts, here or elsewhere. I do not know when this paradigm shift occurred where a company HAS to change so its like another product.  There is a reason there is competition. Don’t like ios, get android!', 'So how would it work - by geography? Would Apple have to open up only in markets where it has greater market share and not in other regions? \n\nI agree that choice can be a good thing for users, but I think the tricky part is deciding what choices people ought to have. Is the choice not to have a choice not valid in this situation? What about the less tech savvy people who are perfectly fine with the current locked-down nature of the app store and have no need for competing game stores or sideloading? That Apple doesn’t give its users enough rope to hang themselves with is one of its key selling points and while the more tech-savvy users may rile about how restrictive their iOS devices are, I believe there is a huge user base who find it liberating that they can do whatever they want with their device and know that there is only so much that can be done to screw it up. \n\nRight now, I feel one limitation is that the conversation here is largely being held in tech forums and this conversation is being fielded by more tech-savvy users whose needs and priorities may not be an accurate representation of the needs of the average smartphone user. \n\nBut the average joe likely has better things to do than this and so here we are. 😬', "You mean like the 7 years apps spent copying clipboard contents on iOS until last month when an alert started notifying you?  If you go back a bit it wasn't even uncommon for apps to secretly upload your entire contact book!  Many of the protections Apple offers today came about because of abuse first, it's just how these protections develop.\n\nhttps://appleinsider.com/articles/12/02/08/path_app_under_fire_for_unauthorized_address_book_upload", "I know it's standard, that's what I said. Just because it's standard doesn't mean it's right. This should be changed on all platforms", 'Epic wanted to provoke a reason for a lawsuit. They had the paperwork ready and filed it basically the same hour the stuff was pulled. \n\nThey seem to think they can be heroes by finally busting Apple’s rules', "Epic wants to be on the App Store but doesn't want to pay.", 'Because it’s a PR stunt.', 'Bad bot', 'An iOS app IS a separate platform just for iOS, that has no mention in it’s documentation of other forms of purchasing things.   It’s exactly what you suggested in your worse case example. And every app has adhered to those rules for the past dozen years.', "I just think it's much more effective and insidious now because of how fast information travels through the internet. It's fake news if it's a lie, more so when reinforced by troll accounts that kept repeating the lie.", 'You need to provide a source on that because the tweets from Wordpress devs don\'t say that. Otherwise that\'s just FUD.\n\nI meant source for this claim: "WordPress then submitted an update to remove the mention of payment options months ago. The update was rejected with Apple still requiring that the update enabled IAP despite the latest submission no longer mentioning payment options."', "why don't apple take a 30% of Instagram's advertising intake, why doesn't Apple take a 30% cut of the thing I just bought on eBay, why doesn't Apple take 30% of Uber rides? \n\nIt's all third party content, digital or otherwise. This is why there is contention.", "Doesn't mean it's right. And developers should (and are) start to fight back", "So finally they acknowledged they added direct payments.\n\nHis argument that this doesn't appear on the app store is funny. Of course it won't be, that's the reason the update is blocked.", 'I agree on a cut if they sell something and make use of their payment services, but not if it just advertises that they sell something on their main web platform, you don\'t pay ad space on your own store in the mall do you? You already paid rent for it.\n\nImagine having a store space saying "go visit our other store too if you\'re interested" and suddenly the mall is saying "you can\'t advertise if you don\'t sell it here and give us 30%". \n\nSorry but that\'s just abuse of position in my eyes.', 'It would be more akin to a mall trying charge a store for any online sales they make.', 'I don’t believe so, In fact it would result in more competition on a variety of levels. Does it hurt consumers in the sense that they have to think harder about the initial decision they are going to make? Sure.', 'If it works “both ways” then it’s not “freeloading” is it? Apple derives significant value from the amount of apps they have in the store and that’s a big attraction for people purchasing a phone. Otherwise every single free app is “freeloading” when Apple’s contribution is just hosting the app and give you a button to download it.', 'Look at how Android does it. It already is a locked down OS if you want play store apps. If you want apps from the outside, you’re free to choose to do that. But that’ll need you to tweak settings on your phone. Apple can do that as well. How is choice a bad thing? It literally does not affect how you use your phone. \n\nIf you want an Apple censored experience, use the AppStore. If you don’t, use apps from other stores.\n\nChances are, I’ll never download a non-AppStore app. But that doesn’t mean I ruin the experience for everybody who expect a more open experience on an Apple platform. And you know what, Apple already does that on macOS!', "There are tons of ways to lock down Android phones to make it safe for children. I'm sure Apple can figure out the same as well. More features isn't bad. Especially when it doesn't hamper or change your experience at all.", '>\tSo how would it work - by geography?\n\nYou realise that’s how the App Store, along with all online stores, work now right? Different countries have different laws and the stores operate within them. Likewise not all apps are available in all countries, they are also different prices. So yes it would likely be country dependant, unless Apple decides to unify it. Steam ran into trouble in Australia for not offering reasonable refunds (which is required here), they fought it and lost. \n\n>\t...people who are perfectly fine with the current locked-down nature of the app store and have no need for competing game stores or sideloading\n\nThey don’t have to download the apps or use the services. In fact they would be able use any app or service they wish to. \n\n>\tno need for competing game stores or sideloading\n\nI understand that, it will make things more complicated. But Apple is too big, the way the store works is not fair to me. \n\n>\twith is one of its key selling points\n\nTheir market cap is 2 Trillion, they’ll be aight. \n\n>\tI believe there is a huge user base who find it liberating... (trimmed for brevity)\n\nNone of my suggestions mean that device security or access to the device APIs would be more or less than the current store. An app installed from an alternate store wouldn’t get full system access. We are not talking about rooting or jailbreaking, just installing apps from somewhere other than the App Store. \n\nApple would still control what apps have access to, because they make iOS and the APIs apps can access. Apps would still need to prompt to user for permission to access things such as locations/mic/camera. \n\n>\tthe average joe likely has better things to do than this and so here we are. 😬\n\nThey likely *don’t know* that an app developers are beholden to Apple. They purposely disallow other payment methods in apps, even mentioning that you can go to a URL isn’t allowed. When purchasing an app or subscription the user is not told Apple will take a 30%. The user would have no idea and developers aren’t explicitly *not* allowed to tell them in their app. \n\nIn every shop in Australia if you pay by Visa/MasterCard they are required to tell you what percentage fee you’ll be charged (if any) and provide reasonable payment methods that are fee-free, the fee must also be ‘reasonable’, ie: not be making a profit from the fee. It’s possible to make big players play by rules that will benefit users, someone has set the rules though.', 'Nah.', "Epic wants to be on it's own app store, it's forced onto the app store because of apples walled garden approach.", "...What? Epic doesn't want to be on the App Store at all", "Or they don't want to be restricted by the Draconian 30% cut.", "I'm not sure why your being upvoted.\n\nEpic games was fine with paying, they even allowed you to still use Apple pay.\n\nThey just gave users a choice not to use Apples system and passed on the savings to their users.", 'Seems like a huge gamble though', 'Yeah good luck dealing what that shit show in courts. Apple is out of its fucking mind.', "Here's an article from The Verge, https://www.theverge.com/2020/8/22/21397424/apple-wordpress-apology-iap-free-ios-app", "That's exactly the terms though, if it's digital content or they're unlocking a feature in your software, you need IAP. If instagram allows you to remove ads by paying, that going to be IAP.\n\nLook, I am a dev and I'd love for the cut to be lower, but also as a developer, I understand why it's there.", 'Nah.', 'Noticeably, everyone repeating what you’re saying in this post are not developers. They’re just angry anti-corporatists. \n\nSure developers would appreciate a readjusted fee, but home renters would enjoy a readjusted rent as well.', "No other app stores on Playstation or Xbox too. Are we going to have Steam there too? Even on Android, you can't download other stores via Google's Play Store.\n\nYou can actually have another store on iOS, but you have to jailbreak it.", '>So finally they acknowledged they added direct payments.\n\nThis looks more like they are advertising direct payments but not accepting them in the app. \n\nThis seems more like they had an add saying "Premium plans available on [wordpress.com](https://wordpress.com)" rather than "Enter your credit card in the box below (non-apple pay) to purchase a premium plan". It\'s more like a store in a mall which has a commission clause in its lease advertising that you can order products on their website on signs in their store (which would avoid the commission).', '>Everyone seems to think that its free reign to dump over Apple right now but thank god legal matters are not really decided by how many twitter retweets and 12 year olds crying loudly on comments.\n\nThere no direct payment in app. However they do advertised premium plan they sell', 'None of this is a rebuttal.', 'I think the analogy is that they have a store in the mall, and they have to pay a royalty to trade in the mall. This isn’t uncommon in real mall situations where a mall is very popular and draws a lot of customers. Stores will agree to pay a commission on sales because they know that by being in that location they will get so much extra foot traffic that they will make more money despite the commission. \n\nThe advertisement to their out-of-app payment is like having someone in their store say “oh you like this stuff? Come meet me out in the parking lot later and we can do a deal ;)” so as to avoid paying the commission to the mall while still gaining exposure to all the shoppers who came to that mall. \n\nThe idea is that if they don’t want to pay the mall commission then they can open a shop in someone else’s mall instead \n\nIn this analogy the mall is the iPhone ecosystem, not the App Store. \n\nIt’s not a strong analogy overall because there’s less friction to stop shoppers from switching to a different mall vs friction switching between iPhone and Android.', 'They manufacture the phone, they develop the OS, the API. They don’t just give you a “button”.', 'Yeah, no. Premium video services are literally a category that existed before amazon prime video. Hence why there’s several other services that qualify for the same reduced rate that amazon gets.', 'Android is a mess.\n\n\nIt does affect how I use my phone, because it results in apps being taken off the App Store and lowers the number of acceptable choices I have. It’s not going to result in a meaningful number of new choices that didn’t exist before. Epic isn’t going to make anything they wouldn’t already make if they’re able to force their way off the App Store. They’re just going to change what your singular option for their game is. \n\n\nWhich is obviously in their interest and they’re entitled to try to do so. But if they succeeded (which fortunately they have no grounds to do), my experience is guaranteed to get worse.', 'You just made my point for me. The change would force people to have to take extra steps to secure their devices where they didn’t need to before. \n\nI like to think that I am savvy enough to protect myself, but I am also not so selfish as to desire a change that could potentially result in a net loss for users. \n\nSo even if it may be to my benefit, I am willing to give it up if I believe it would also be to the detriment of many other people. \n\nNot everything is about me. That’s what I feel is missing in these discussions. Everyone is excited about saving a few bucks in IAPs, and nobody is showing any empathy for the less tech-savvy user (who probably doesn’t frequent online forums).', 'Maybe. But they sure want to be on the Apple platform.', 'Nah, they just want to have their own App Store where they can charge a cut from other developers.', "He's getting upvoted because he is right, it's about epic wanting to make more money same as apple the email about them wanting a special deal with apple before going public with all this stuff should at least tell you as much. Them only gaining 10% more money and passing the rest of the apple tax savings on to the consumer is just a move to get public opinion on their side.  \n  \nNot saying anyone's right or wrong in the case just that epic games ain't no saints here to save the world and neither is apple", ">and passed on the savings to their users\n\nApple takes 30%, but the prices were only reduced by 20%. So by using the alternative payment method, Epic would still make more money than by using Apple's.", "I read the article and to be honest, it's pretty stupid because they kept repeating that the app doesn't sell anything. Of course, because it is blocked...", 'I just think it’s an arbitrary line to draw. I get Apple need to make money from the store, but they theoretically make nothing from Facebook (and all other big free apps) while hosting their app, reviewing their apps, pushing out massive updates weekly or whatever, whereas companies selling a bit of IP are taking a 30% hit. Obviously I agree the cut should be lower, but there is an argument that Apple are entitled to 0%\n\nI totally get it if people want to use Apples payment system, that’s a huge win for lots of smaller companies who don’t want to deal with that. But to ban alt payment entirely reeks of anti-competitiveness. \n\nIn cases like Spotify, that directly compete with Apple and are more out of pocket than is fair, Apple don’t have that 30% overhead, they could even in theory undercut Spotify price wise (and that’s ignoring the built in ads and the huge advantage they already hold). \n\nThe App Store is not the little guy it was 12 years ago, it’s grown far more than Jobs and Forstall ever thought it would and it needs a modicum of regulation.', '“That’s what the terms say” - everyone is very aware of this. Apple can write whatever they want in their terms, it’s up to the courts to decide if it’s legal and binding. That’s the entire point here.', 'The cut is prohibitively high. And preventing developers from charging iOS users more to compensate for it is pretty messed up. If apple wants to charge crazy rates their customers should feel it. Same goes for Google, Sony and microsoft', 'I am a developer actually...', ">Even on Android, you can't download other stores via Google's Play Store.\n\nBut you can download apps from outside the play store and sideload them very easily. There are also additional stores like Amazons and Samsung app stores you can load easily.", "Floatplane (paid video streaming service by Linus Tech Tips) has been having this issue as well. Their iOS app (which is still in progress due to this reason) is severely cut down compared to the Android version because they can't mention ANYWHERE that you need to pay off app.\n\n\nAnd they can't afford to do a 30% cut because their whole thing is that content creators get paid well using this, and they also need money to host the high quality videos.\n\n\nAnd it's not like they can use Apple's payment method and just charge more to cover to 30% fee, because that would violate Apple's TOS because you can't charge iOS users more than other platforms.", "That's what is very restrictive with iOS rules. It's a way for Apple to push IAP to devs and in turn profit from apps. It seems a lot of services would rather not have any way to buy through their app than lose 30% of sales.", 'From the tweet it seems they can buy it directly on the linked page.', "Like I said, I have no issue with having to pay a comission, I just don't agree Apple should have any say on what the app advertises of its own business platform.", "I mean they do the exact same thing for macOS (make the hardware, develop the OS and the APIs) and don't require you to use their AppStore to distribute your applications and don't demand a 30% cut of the revenue of all apps that run on Mac.", 'A new video service wouldn’t get the reduced rate until the user has been subscribed via IAP for at least 12 months. \n\nApple wanted these services on the App Store and gave them special pricing to entice them. That’s special treatment, that’s not fair to me.', 'Your experience will not get worse though. Because apps will get cheaper. If you have just one store in your neighbourhood, the storekeeper can charge whatever he wants. If there are ten stores in your neighbourhood, competition will ensure that no one is able to fleece you. Same thing here. Developers will get more choice to host apps, and will choose the store will the lowest fees. Now that will eventually result in you having to pay less.\n\nIf you didn’t know this already, apps are free to collect data and use them as they want even if you use AppStore apps. That’s how Google, Facebook, TikTok, etc. does it. Apple has no control over what data they collect once you go to their app. So you aren’t as safe as you think you are on the AppStore.', 'Honestly? It already takes 18-20 steps to setup an iOS device. It’s not exactly easy to do anyway if you’re worried about that. Apple can surely lockdown your device with a single turn on switch during setup. What’s one step more when it will ensure a better experience for so many other people?\n\nIn case you didn’t know, Safari is already an unrestricted source of data anyway even now on iPhones.', 'Simple solution: Make the default what it is today but let tech-savvy users disable it. \n\nThat way the non-tech-savvy users are "protected" from their own lack of knowledge of what is good and bad and those who want to are able to use the device they paid for as they want. \n\nI can see your point and respect it but I don\'t think forcing everyone to do it Apple\'s way if they don\'t want to is the right answer. Now I knew this when I bought an iPhone and will live with it but I still don\'t think it\'s the right way to do business.', "It was pretty telling that Apple omitted to show Epic's email asking that all devs be given the exception. Apple twisted the facts to make it look like Epic was only asking for itself.", "That doesn't take into account that Epic also discounted v-bucks by 20% on every platform.", ">\tbut there is an argument that Apple are entitled to 0%\n\nThat would be a first for any store, and would probably make store owners invest way less in the store.\n\nAlso expect Apple to start charging for every tools/services they make that you normally get for free or 100$/year if you publish, similar to Microsoft. \n\nThe goal of the current model, is that you can start working on a business idea, with literally 0$ investment and get all Apple's latest tools and services (not a lite version). Then, only if you decide to publish on the App Store, do you have to pay 100$, and then you only pay Apple if your apps actually make money. \n\nYou'd be seeing a lot less indies, since the price of admission would be much higher. Also, a lot less free apps, or low priced apps.", 'It isn’t, as demonstrated by the millions of single-dev apps available.\n\nThis isn’t on Apple.', "Side loading might be a requirement for Google's practice because they license it to different manufacturers. Apple creates its own hardware and no one else, so in this regard it is very much a closed ecosystem. \n\nI don't think they're required to open it up since it's their product?", 'And yet the literal exact same store policies on consoles aren’t strict on third party SaaS revenue because their purpose isn’t as general?', 'No you actually can’t. Anything you buy for an Xbox, whether physical at gamestop, or digitally, has already paid the 30% cut to Microsoft.', 'replying to this one (but I did read your other comment) because it\'s newer, just to point out two things.\n\nfirst off, if you want to pay extra fees, your store in a mall absolutely CAN put up advertisements elsewhere in the mall to say "hey come check out our store if you\'re interested". seen it more times than I can count, set up quite a few advertisements for my own kiosks and such at multiple locations.\n\nthat aside, wordpress wasn\'t just saying "btw you can also purchase these paid services", it was actively allowing people to *use* paid services and management features. Not sure if you\'ve used the app but it really was a chaotic mess, mixing together content from wordpress and wordpress.com in the same app even though they didn\'t really belong together.\n\nyeah it sucks that apple gave them some hassle about getting their shit together, and it sucks that they decided to throw a tantrum on twitter about it instead of resolving it with apple, but no company is perfect and at this point wordpress app is honestly less confusing for people to use, I reckon. I\'m looking forward to the day that wordpress.com has its own separate app to keep things properly organized but I don\'t know if they\'ll ever get there tbh', 'It will get worse. Every single application that isn’t on the App Store and subject to Apple’s guidelines is worse for me. \n\n\nThere is no added competition on actual Apps. There aren’t a meaningful number of Apps that don’t exist because of Apple’s guidelines, but will exist if epic wins, and they are in the small niche categories of things like emulators that still already exist with a jailbreak.\n\n\n\nFacebook being able to opt out of the App Store and no longer be subject to Apple’s rules, in and of itself, will outweigh the best case version of benefits you’re arguing for a million to one. And those benefits won’t actually exist, because Apple makes developers a ton of money and the unmatched ecosystem is a direct result of them having standards.', 'So honestly I agree with you, I wish we could sideload apps or use other app stores but I don\'t agree with this:\n\n>Your experience will not get worse though.\n\nI think the argument is that right now if I download an app on an iPhone I know it\'s been vetted by Apple. \n\nIf they did allow apps then it would allow developers to skip the app store all tougher and not go through the vetting process and force me to sideload their app if I wanted to use it. \n\nAs an example, let\'s say Spotify says "Hey, I don\'t need to use the app store to distribute my software anymore" and takes down their app but lets users download it from their website. Now if you want to use it you have to sideload it and no longer know if its "safe" by Apple\'s standards. If they release a bug that Apple would have caught in their vetting the experience is worse for consumers.', 'Except they didn’t, and you’re lying out your ass to cover for epic.', 'Firstly, let’s not pretend that $99 is nothing, also remember that the App Store and the developers bring people to the iPhone, which doesn’t sell at a loss. Steve Jobs himself said they didn’t expect to break even from the store itself. \n\nThere is a middle ground to be met. It’s possible for bigger developers to pay Apple more for the privileges that brings, for example, charging larger developers to push updates to x amount of users. \n\nDo you not see how the free apps such as social networks or shopping site (that do generate revenue via the device) are getting an easy ride comparatively? Why do they not owe Apple anything?', "Why should spotify have to pay 30% of peoples subscriptions to apple? And if that somehow makes sense to you how is it OK for apple to tell spotify they can't charge apple users more? Spotify should be able to charge whoever they want, whatever they want.", ">I don't think they're required to open it up since it's their product?\n\nDepends entirely on whether it is considered an anti trust issue. Traditionally Apples been protected due to Androids marketshare, so consumers have a better chance of hell freezing over then anyone enforcing any pro consumer actions on Apple.", 'Actually they’re not: https://twitter.com/dhh/status/1272968382329942017?s=21', "Developers need to start fighting back somewhere. It seems they're starting with Apple. Just because the tension hasn't reached the other stores doesnt mean what they're doing is ok", "Do you have a source for that? I've been trying to google it but my search fu is coming up empty. I'm having a hard time finding any details on the terms of their development program. \n\nI'm wondering how this would work since things like sales exist that MS would be completely unaware of. Do they just pay 30% on the MSRP of the game regardless of the actual sale price? Is it on the number of discs produced? The number distributed tp retailers? The number actually sold to consumers?\n\nI'm not saying this is wrong but it seems like a very complicated system and I'd love more details on how this actually works since it seems pretty relevant to this discussion.", '>first off, if you want to pay extra fees, your store in a mall absolutely CAN put up advertisements elsewhere in the mall to say "hey come check out our store if you\'re interested". seen it more times than I can count, set up quite a few advertisements for my own kiosks and such at multiple locations.\n\nI think this is a bit different, if you want to pay extra to advertise you can also advertise in Apple\'s AppStore just like in a mall. \n\nThis is more like a mall saying "You can\'t advertise your website on signage in your store because we would lose out on the commission from those sales". \n\nNow I can understand Apple\'s position that if you want to advertise a premium upgrade that it has to be available via the app but I also think devs should be able to advertise that it\'s available in other channels as well.', 'Stop talking shit and shilling for Apple.\n\nhttps://www.businessinsider.com/read-epic-ceo-email-to-apple-execs-fortnite-app-store-2020-8?r=US&IR=T\n\n"We hope that Apple will also make these options equally available to all iOS developers in order to make software sales and distribution on the iOS platform as open and competitive as it is on personal computers."', ">\tlet’s not pretend that $99 is nothing\n\nIt's literally my smallest expanse as a dev, where tools can cost $5k/year. It barely covers the salary of Apple's reviewers that check the app updates (if even that).\n\n>\tThere is a middle ground to be met. It’s possible for bigger developers to pay Apple more for the privileges that brings, for example, charging larger developers to push updates to x amount of users.\n\nTo be clear, I totally understand and agree with this reasoning. In my mind, I would prefer a kind of simple tax system where bigger players contribute more and smaller devs less.\n\nI just think that arguing for 0$ is unrealistic and would probably result in a worst system overall.", "You're treating the app store as though it is a public utility where everyone has rights to use it. Apple is hosting their apo, they're using tools and tech developed by Apple, how do you suggest Apple get compesated?", 'They don’t, after a year. And that’s part of the agreement Spotify signed.', 'Also Microsoft just filed a brief in support of Epic. Apple’s policies against Spotify are particularly anticompetitive.', "Yeah that's what I thought as well, no way it's going to be treated as a monopoly. It's just a matter of supporting Apple or staying out of it.", 'No, more like you’re demanding something for free that costs money.', 'That’s not a defense. That’s epic saying “after you give us what we want, you should maybe do what our PR campaign claims we want.”', "I only argue that the margins should be smaller. If your a capitalist you believe that if a service is being priced unfairly people will innovate ways to do things cheaper. That's what's happening", 'Because they support Unreal, not any actual reason of Epic being right.', "You said they didn't say that, but they did. The argument isn't that it isn't a defence, it's that you said the other person was making things up.\n\nDownvoting doesn't make you right.", "Oh, ok, that I agree with. There should indeed be justfication and it should apply to the entire industry, not just Apple's. 30% is so arbitrary.", 'If you follow this train of logic, you should make your own successful phone / ecosystem. No one is forcing you to use an Apple phone.', '>which developers pay for\n\nLol. $100 a year doesn’t cover that. Not even close.\n\nHosting costs a huge chunk, especially when you operate the CDN to speed up downloads, those review policies, testing, tools, marketing, and on and on.', 'They didn’t though. They asked for special treatment and then said they hoped it wouldn’t remain special treatment.', "Take a look at Microsoft's anti trust suits with Internet Explorer.", "If you've seen the profit they make off the store you're aware that the profit margin in astronomical. It's not about covering their costs", 'So they asked Apple to apply it across all developers, l just like the other person said...', 'Anti-trust is government intervention into the market place. True capitalism would oppose such action. You yourself suggested that "competition" would arise to solve the issue. So maybe you can create your own cell phone hardware that directly competes with Apple and undercut their store?', 'Nor does it have to be. But the $100 isn’t covering their costs.', 'After they asked for special treatment. You don’t get to say “I want special treatment and I hope it’s not special treatment for long,” and act like that’s not still special treatment.\n\nFurther, the other person claimed Apple lies by omission, which isn’t true at all.', 'You can\'t do that. That is the whole point of antitrust suits, eventually companies build out an infrastructure and start charging tolls, essentially, that are unreasonable but impossible to compete with.\n\nBuilding my own phones, operating systems, ecosystem, etc. is not reasonably possible. Apple did a great job and makes a metric fuck ton of money selling their products. They\'ve now built a marketplace, on which their own products compete and have a significant advantage over competitors products.\n\nSpotify has built a great product too, far better IMO than apple music. But spotify has road blocks that apple music doesn\'t have to getting on the app store. And the size of apples market share means that being in apples store isn\'t a choice if they want their business to survive.\n\nWhat you\'re suggesting is that every company builds their own phones and ecosystems and charge everyone else 30%. We\'ll end up with 10 shitty ecosystems, that doesn\'t help anyone.\n\nWhat I\'m suggesting is that apple, Google, Microsoft etc. stop being greedy and anticompetitive. Charge 30% or whatever for things purchased through the store. After that point a developer should be able to use any payment processor they want. If apple wants companies to use their payment processor they should incentivize companies to do so by having lower rates than others, or more security, or something.\n\nThem saying "your proprietary piece of software can\'t link to an external site" is blatantly anticompetitive.\n\nI\'m not saying they shouldn\'t make money. I\'m saying they shouldn\'t be so shitty about it.', 'No, during asking for special treatment, they request that it not be so special and be applied to everyone. Just like the other guy said. No matter how much mental gymnastics you try to perform, you were out of line with what you said to the other guy. You were factually wrong. Are you really incapable of the humility required to just admit you got carried away and shit talked someone unreasonably?', 'That is by the very definition of how the words in that email work, not true.\n\n>\t“We hope that Apple will also make these options equally available to all iOS developers in order to make software sales and distribution on the iOS platform as open and competitive as it is on personal computers.”\n\n>hope, will, also\n\nThis is an attempt at CYA, not any actual argument for openness.\n\nI’m not factually wrong. You are.\n\nFurther, it’s interesting how you completely ignored that the other poster blatantly lied when they claimed Apple removed that from the released emails.\n\nI don’t need to be humbled. You need to accept that you’re wrong.', "You tried to call the other guy out for talking shit when they said Epic asked for Apple to apply it to all developers, but Apple are acting as if Epic are just asking for it for themselves...\n\nOnce again, downvoting doesn't make you right.", 'But once again, they didn’t. And I downvoted because you’re very clearly acting in bad faith.', "You know all about bad faith don't you? Imagine lacking self-awareness this hard. You just can't admit that you were being harsh to the other guy can you?.", 'No, because I wasn’t. I don’t like armchair lawyers.', 'Yeah you were. Go on little buddy, have the last word.', 'Thanks for proving me right. Also, lol @ salty epic fanboi.', "Yeah, that's why I've got about $15,000 of Apple products, because I'm an Epic fanboy. What an absolute brainlet. You absolute child.", '> You’ll notice that Apple is positioning this as the developer — WordPress — having done the right thing and removed the “display of their service payment options from the app,” and to my knowledge that is technically true. But as far as I’m aware, that didn’t happen today: it happened weeks or months ago.', 'Hmmmm seems this could make Apple look better in the public eye in their dispute with Epic.   Possible good feels for the jury if it ever goes there.  Ole ye amenable Apple is it now?', 'https://www.livemint.com/companies/news/apple-reverses-move-to-force-wordpress-to-add-in-app-payments-11598140647441.html', "Too late! It's time for epic games to punish you and end the 1984 era of Apple!", 'Fuck apple and their monopolistic bullshit!\n\n- sent from my iPhone', 'What is stopping Apple from taking 30% of all banking transactions like PayPal, Venmo, Coinbase, and others?\n\nIt seems like the loophole here is that you need to start your own money movement company. Money movement companies/banks charge fees for “virtual goods” all the time. Late fees? Transaction charges? Interest payments? Maintenance fees?\n\nEpic starts banking entity and creates different tier bank accounts that charges fees for different virtual bank accounts. You can get the ‘gold digger’ account for a monthly fee, and a season pass is included ‘free’\n\nMaybe just link to another app like eBay that sells virtual goods and gift cards. I’m sure they will work out a deal for a smaller percentage cut. Epic then just becomes a seller on eBay and send redemption code emails that can be used for items of the day.\n\nOr Fortnite accepts a cryptocurrency that is traded on a platform like Coinbase. Currently Apple doesn’t take 30% of those transactions... yet... maybe make Libra an option? This is exactly the sort of thing Libra is supposed to fix.\n\nThere are many options available for Epic to toy around with Apple, and show how Apple’s policies aren’t so uniformly applied.', 'Heh. Maybe they see what’s about to happen in November and think it’s better they back off from their standard overt bullying and monopolistic business practices...or their lawyers think it’s better. Because it is. Now, do they should do the right thing and apologize to Epic.', 'What the fuck has been going on over at Apple lately? I can’t help but feel had he lived Steve Jobs would be navigating these waters far better than Tim Apple', 'What about Fortnite? Clearly Apple just wants to avoid more companies following the lead of Epic Games so they’re bending the knee to everyone else.', 'Yeah, I’m not buying any more Apple products if they’re gonna try and get their fingers in everybody’s wallets. I’m glad my iPhone is the only product that still works from that company', 'Yup.  You don’t need to use in-app payments as long as you do not include external links and directions for account creation.  We had to do the same thing.\n\nWas annoyed by all this “Apple steals 30%” BS.', 'Great idea until they still charging you for upkeep. Salt? On your food. But the government can track our body’s with skin cells and now this? Where does it end? I bought into the original tablet computer but returned it in 95. Paper ever since. WHO? The price is too much. I wouldn’t spend on a chair what my nephew does on iToys. Eye Told You! Eye Sold You. They don’t teach anymore in schools. I listen to music on silent now.', 'No. They made a mistake. Wordpress, however, had to go public and had to be big to get that resolved. Smaller app developers have no hope to repeat this.', 'Apple is already looking good in public’s eye after they showed the evidence about Epic Games asking for a special discount before the ban', 'I must’ve seen the related article from at least 8-10 different sources - just last night. It the power of social media, y’all.', 'Because the rule here is for in-app purchases not transfer of funds.\n\nIt’s not a loophole - Venmo, Coinbase, banking apps aren’t profiting from user purchasing things in-app. \n\nThe difference couldn’t be more clear. \n\nAlso, you can’t just “start a banking entity” lol - not just everyone can be a bank and dealing with the FDIC isn’t like knocking on your neighbor’s door for some sugar. \n\n\nLike are you kidding? You think Apple’s army of lawyers didn’t think of this and you somehow did?', 'App breaks a platforms ToS, platform removes app, shocked pikachu face', 'Lol absolutely not.\n\nJobs was known for playing hardball and steamrolling the competition.\n\nThe difference was that back then Apple was 1/10the size it is today.', 'Why would they purposely lose lawsuits to show everyone else not to sue them? If anything they’d dump a few billion into just wasting the other companies resources considering apple is growing at a rate that’s bigger then the entire values of the companies it’s going up against', 'This comment has been overwritten because I share way too much on this site.', 'The apps can gladly refer you to the browser, where you can log in and purchase everything without a pay cut', 'Wow', 'Wtf are you on.   Can I get some', 'I am a smaller app developer and repeated exactly this.  You don’t need to include in-app purchases as long as you don’t include an external link to account creation/payment within the app.\n\nIt is written in the ToS and it was easy to remedy', 'Right. People act like it was Tim Cook that looked at this and said “NOPE.” and was the one who sent the initial e-mail saying they had to adhere to the policy or have force monetization.\n\nBut, the reality is that it was probably a relatively low level semi-automated response that was simply following the guidelines to the letter. It’s unfortunate that higher ups had to get involved to fix this, but it was clearly an oversight.', '"Mistake."', 'Did you see the reaction of Tim Sweeney to that ‘evidence’? Apple had conveniently omitted a vital part of that in which Epic that this wasn’t just for Epic but for every other Developer. https://twitter.com/timsweeneyepic/status/1296918541627793411?s=21', 'Epic trying to work with Apple isn’t bad. Other companies get a different special deal despite what Apple claims. The net result here is that an Epic win is only good for the consumer. An Apple win is only bad.', 'How do you explain eBay’s ability to sell virtual goods, then?\n\nEdit: wording', 'Epic broke the rule on purpose. They weren’t shocked that they were removed because they did it to get removed to highlight the unfair rule', 'Epic isn’t the problem. Apple is. The rules are messed up.', "*Here's Epic's perspective on this matter (Not my own views, just what I've gathered from some reading I've done):*\n\nSmartphones are no longer a 'niche market' with penetration of >80% in developed countries. The device is effectively becoming a 'utility' (Imagine your life without a smartphone).\n\nCurrently, the ability for an independent developer to offer their service on the platform means that they must play by Apple and Google's rules. There is no opportunity for other players to enter this market (That ship has sailed a long time ago, Microsoft, Canonical, Palm and others have tried and failed miserably). Just to get your application in the App Store, you must:\n\n* Have a Mac (Xcode)\n* Register as a Developer (There are additional annual fees for this)\n\nOn top of this, comes in the 30% fee, which I might add  is not the same for everyone.. If you have leverage due to your size, you bet you can negotiate something lower than 30% under the table. Anyone else? Good luck getting Apple's attention.As you can guess, the operating cost for Apple is nowhere near the amount it earns from this fee.\n\n The situation is being described as the modern day equivalent of  'Bell System' and the power they had over telecommunications.", 'Ok so maybe I don’t understand what’s going on. Please explain it to me?', 'Ummm???', 'That’s not correct. You can’t provide any means of the person going from your app to purchase, even if it leaves the app. So, if Apple can find someway, for example, a link in TOS that allows them to get to your site that then allows you to make a purchase, that’s a violation.', 'Epic knows what they’re doing. This is a smear campaign. Of course they worded it like they want it for everyone.', 'Not trying to paint Apple as a guardian angel here, but one could argue that Epic’s own store (with full OS access as Epic has requested) would mean data collection by Epic that they cannot currently perform on iOS. And that would be bad for the consumer, IMO.\n\nWe don’t have to choose either option completely. There’s probably a happy middle ground. I just wanted to point out that lower literal dollar amounts don’t always mean a better time for the consumer.', 'An Epic win is also good for Tencent, the Chinese censorship powerhouse. I much prefer a win for a domestic corporation.', 'Lots of apple shills in here, defending one of the worst companies ever conceived. \n\nYour opinions and the way you voice them won’t be missed when we inevitably go extinct, driven there by the very companies you all so lovingly defend.', 'It will be bad for my privacy and security. I don’t care to save 30% on CandyCrush’s $99 deal of the day.', 'Apple doesn’t charge for the sale of physical goods. \n\nIt’s in their TOS.\n\nThey also don’t charge for services like UBER and Lyft.\n\nThe 30% is strictly software.', 'No shit.', '...? According to whom? Epic? The people who broke the rule? \n\nI’ll bet they sure feel that way.', 'Epic wants to make Apple’s platform less secure and with less privacy in order to make more money.', 'That is what I just said man.', 'But Apple chose to leave exactly that part out in their statement, why do you think that is?', 'Consumers would have that choice though. Imagine not being able to choose Steam and instead being locked down to Windows App Store.\n\nAnd if the Epic iOS game store offered lower prices for that data, you’d have that choice you could make with a clear price. If you’ve ever provided and email for a discount, it’s the same thing. Discount for information.\n\nEven Apple does this. You pay a premium for the privacy they offer. And they still show you ads!', 'Epic is an American company. Tencent is a minority shareholder.\n\nAnd Apple sends far more money to Chinese companies over the years than Epic has. And an Epic win will mean a bigger win for American developers. An Apple win hurts American developers.', 'I hate big companies says man posting to Reddit from his Android device over AT&T’s network.', 'Yes. Amazon Prime Video is allowed to get different rates. \n\n\nhttps://www.theverge.com/2020/7/30/21348108/apple-amazon-prime-video-app-store-special-treatment-fee-subscriptions', 'A lot of items on eBay are not physical goods, but virtual goods that can be downloaded . Searching Fortnite in eBay returns many virtual items.\n\nFDIC is insurance. I assume you mean the Treasury department?', 'A lot of people don’t see that though', 'It’s also not fair that companies like Amazon get a better rate than everyone else', 'So why is Apple asking for revenue from other apps in the App Store? I know they wanted 30% of the profits from another app too', 'No. It’s not. These weren’t links put in the app. They were links that could be eventually reached by following other links in other locations that just happen to exist by default. e.g your TOS that you include has a link to your home page at the bottom for reference and tapping that opens up a page that you can then create the account on.  It’s  not the same thing as a native button in the app that allows people to purchase something outside the App Store.', 'We know why. They’re companies.\n\nTo pretend like Epic is the white knight is foolish.', 'It would be the same only if Epic Store apps are also available on the Apple App store.', 'Absolutely. I try to be aware of how and when I exchange my information for money/discounts. That’s why I pay for my email service. And that’s part of why I pay for iOS. This is probably a radical suggestion, but I’d prefer the government realize that smartphones are a necessary commodity and as such it is impossible to be without their app stores (otherwise why make the devices “smart”?). Following this realization, create an entity that regulates the app stores, ensuring fair fees and also fair income to maintain the store platform.\n\nOne comment I didn’t know where to put: I don’t consider ads a privacy problem. Data collection and ads don’t have to go together, one just really helps out the other. But if you’re going to collect my data, I’d like to be aware of what you’re collecting, how it’s being used, and have the option to opt-out. And I mean opt out completely, Facebook, no shadow profiles (https://www.cnet.com/news/shadow-profiles-facebook-has-information-you-didnt-hand-over/).', '40% stake. Such minority.', 'The FDIC is not insurance buddy - it’s the governing body overseeing deposit insurance that ensures banks in the United States are able to cover withdrawals up to $250k for all their bankers.\n\nIf you want to be a bank in the United States, you basically need to be FDIC insured - the only non-members are generally state-chartered banks, which Epic would never become.\n\nFDIC is insurance for the banks in the event that economic downwinds result in cascading withdrawals that the bank lacks currency to distribute, the federal government will provide the funding to the bank’s consumers.\n\nI know it’s easy to just see the word “insurance” and make an assumption but you’ve missed this one', '“FDIC is insurance”  🤦\u200d♀️', 'Selling virtual goods is also against eBays ToS. Yes they’re there but they are not supposed to. So this isn’t really a good point for you :)', 'Lol - life isn’t fair and there’s no such thing as equality. \n\nEspecially when we’re talking money in the billions.', 'To pay for development tools, security, a human app review process, ongoing development costs, servers, etc. AND to get richer, of course.', '30% of revenue *', 'The link to the ToS was in the app.  The link to create the account was in the ToS\nThe link, therefore, was accessible in-app.\n\nPlease stop.  I actually worked with Apple to resolve this for our company.', 'In what way am I saying that Epic is a white knight? I’m only pointing out that Apple chose to leave out a vital part of an email Epic had sent that they presented as evidence.', 'Hey, maybe you’d like to take a pay cut for doing the same job.', 'Ah, but PayPal isn’t a bank in the US. It is a money movement company/processor. A lot less regulation and pass-through FDIC insurance. Basically, a much easier license to acquire with a lot fewer regulations.\n\nWith a smattering of effort, Epic could become a money movement company. All it needs to do is facilitate the movement of money into their coffers to pay for Fortnite items. It might require Epic to deploy a separate “money movement” app to purchase the items, but its not unlike sending money through Zelle, Venmo, PayPal, or Western Union.', 'So rather quote and facepalm, what is the FDIC if not insurance?', 'It’s funny how you literally couldn’t even use my example to get around how silly this is.\n\nPlease stop. I’ve actually worked with Apple to resolve this for my apps. I know how silly this is. And how much you are misrepresenting things.', '> Apple had conveniently omitted a vital part\n\nThis “convenience” is only an issue if you believe there is validity to what Epic has said they’re doing.', 'But that’s not a pay cut. That’s part of the base contract. They knew the terms of it beforehand and hoped they could go around it.\n\nApple should really lower the cut they take, but it’s not fait to say they are the bad party here. Their terms were known. People are free to not use their platform if they don’t like the terms.', 'Like u/Mr_Xing said, FDIC is a regulatory body tasked with managing the stability of the banking system.  Amongst 1000s of other things they do is insure bank deposits.', 'I am not misrepresenting anything man.  Wow.  Blocking your dumb ass', 'Honestly it’s more “convenient” that Epic is trying to use smaller developers as a scapegoat to justify their greed. They agreed to the EULA and agreed to its terms. Epic doesn’t want to pay Apple... tough shit? Don’t have your game on iOS devices then. Nobody is stopping Epic from making their own hardware and app store. Apple has no reason to back down legally or morally.', 'While the FDIC does regulate and assess penalties, it is mostly like getting points on your license and getting dinged for it.\n\nThe Federal Reserve is what actually regulates the banks. For example, the penalty levied against [Capital One](https://www.federalreserve.gov/newsevents/pressreleases/enforcement20200806a.htm). It was not the FDIC that did that.', 'Literal proof of you misrepresenting things above.\n\nPeace out!', 'Congrats on learning about the FDIC today.', '“We’re sorry this resulted in bad press.”', '>Since the developer removed the display of their service payment options from the app, it is now a free stand-alone app and does not have to offer in-app purchases.\n\n[As Dieter just pointed out on Twitter](https://twitter.com/backlon/status/1297306377589649408), the app was always standalone. \n\nWhat giant pile of gaslighting and entitlement from Apple. The way they frame this situation almost turns this into a non-apology.', "I don't think US government will do much but I hope EU better start hitting Apple with antitrust laws. They must allow users to install apps without jailbreaking.", 'Since i started to watch Louis Rossmann i understood the sick mentality of Apple. Screw them! (And yes, im using an iphone 😂😭)', "Cool, now make it free to download xcode, all the sdks and upload an app to the store. Google aren't much better, but a paying 25 dollars once is pretty thin against the hundreds a year it costs to maintain an ios app. \n\nI pay my bills with my real job reviewing/maintaining code written by some of the worst engineers and developers ever allowed to touch a keyboard, if I write something in my free time it's to remind myself it can be done right and I'll even give it to the public for free. Why should there be a tax on being charitable with my time?\n\nEdit: please leave Apple fanboys, we all think pay to win is horrid now you're supporting pay to develop. Why should I?", "I quote myself, why I don't want to have the option to get my iPhone apps outside from the AppStore:\n\nNo, this wouldn't work out really great! Look, let's take out the malware and virus problem which would happen, when you could install apps from the outside from AppStore:\n\nOn macOS there is no design rule for developers, how they want to make their macOS app. Even the icon can look whatever they like it should look like.\n\nBut on the iPhone, there are UI/UX rules every developer needs to follow. The app icon must be an exact squircle, the screen resolution and aspect ratio needs to be followed. The app should use the new iOS features etc. And Apple forces the developer to update their apps, when they're too old.\n\nIf everyone can make apps for iPhone outside from the AppStore we would have chaotic apps that don't follow any rules. iOS would turn to a fucking mess, where nothing really works, shitty looks and nothing really fits. The same problem already has Android.\n\nAlso a problem, why people don't upgrade their Android versions. While on iPhone everyone upgrades.\n\nI don't want this shit on my iPhone or on the iPhones of others. I don't want to tell my friends: «Sorry, but we can't share/play/whatever together, because you need to upgrade your phone first!» and my friend will then respond with: «But then this app from\noutside the AppStore will not work anymore, because the developer doesn't update it, that's why I can't upgrade».\n\nI don't want to be forced to install an app from outside, because the developer doesn't want to bring their app to the AppStore because he wants to save some money. But because I need it for work or whatever, I'm forced to install such apps from the outside.\n\nNo! I'm really happy how clean iOS is and how every app fits my iPhone because they had to follow a design guide.\n\nAnd Apple is bringing with iOS14 more transparency to the apps. You can see which personal data the app uses etc.\n\nHow should I know this anymore, when I have to install the apps outside from the AppStore?\n\nI always have seen the iPhone as the little brother of the Mac, and not a computer that should replace a desktop computer.\n\nIf you want a chaotic but open system, go to Android. But I don't want a chaotic system, that's why I use an iPhone.\n\nI fucking don't want this whole shit show on my iPhone. Keep the fucking AppStore, no third party apps! Go to Android, if you like to have a mess!", "why did automattic even complain about this? ooh they are forcing us to sell things. isn't that the entire point of running a business?", 'If you have an app that even mentions your services and prices of things that can’t be bought through the app, that’s against apples rules? You can’t even mention money without them able to take a piece. What a fucking racket. The mob does this sort of thing.', 'They’re just sorry they got caught.', 'Wordpress also admitted they knew it was part of the agreement when they agreed to the TOS so should becareful throwing stuff around', "> As Dieter just pointed out on Twitter, the app was always standalone. \n\nAcutally he admits to the error there. \n\nThe INITIAL REASON for the take down is valid, they had a way to pay for services outside of the app store and thats not allow, the mistake on APPLES part was removing it should have been enough and they have now admitted is enough hence allowing it back in.\n\n>What giant pile of gaslighting and entitlement from Apple.\n\nActually both sides are gaslighting it in my eyes, BOTH sides fucked up but don't want to admit it.\n\nThere WAS a contract breach (a way to pay outside of the apps systems linked within the app, even if its buried, its there). It SHOULD have been allowed once it was removed.\n\nBoth things have now been sorted, and both parties wrists slapped.", 'It wasn’t standalone though. The anti-Apple circlejerk is strong.', "I'm sorry, but that's the terms of Apple and have been for ages. If you offer in-app-purchases you have to offer them IN-APP. A link to a shady russian credit card skimming site is not allowed.\n\nYes, that catches lots of people/devs that are legitimate and would not use your payment details in ways that are not expected, but then again there are plenty of legitimate companies that have lost control of this data.\n\nApple is in the right here. If you give an impression to customer that he can conclude transaction in-app you HAVE to use apple approved means to do so. That protects apple ecosystem and trust of users in using apps available on iDevices.\n\n---\n\nAnything else is just sour grapes by devs to actually having to do actual work and adjust their business models accordingly.\n\n---\n\nApple protects consumers, not devs. And that is a massive reputational asset for apple in eyes of actual users (as opposed of android crybabies).", 'Let’s not forget, they likely negotiated to simply get the data from that app. Gonna get $ one way or the other!', 'Epic games is fighting the [good fight](https://www.courtlistener.com/docket/17442392/epic-games-inc-v-apple-inc/) right now.', "I hope not. Apple has built an ecosystem that actually offers guarantees of quality and trust to the user. Apple sales and profits amply demonstrate that there are plenty of people that value that and are happy to pay the premium.\n\nYou want a quality platform for cheap. You do not realise that by making it cheap you'll destroy it. Quality costs money. Your wishes will take away the option of having a good, reliable, mobile platform from those that are ready to pay for it.\n\nGoing the Android model will destroy iDevices market overnight. Not because Apple will get less money, but because they will become the same shitstorm of low quality virus fests as most android devices are.", 'iPhones are supported for 5/6 years only because of the closed ecosystem. \n\nSure would be nice to bypass appstore and their fees, but that would lose apple any incentive to support older devices.', '>(And yes, im using an iphone 😂😭)\n\nreminds me of simpsons episode "Holidays of future passed"\n\n\n\n**Lisa**: [Google](https://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Google), even though you\'ve enslaved half the world, you\'re still a damn fine search engine.', '>Started to watch guy who explicitly is anti Apple\n\n>am now anti apple\n\nWho would have thought?', 'sad that Apple has turned into a shit company, and yes, I’m using an iPhone, iMac, iWatch, iPad,  and iShitMyPants too.', "Oh, don't watch Louis. He is an narcissistic idiot with few actual repair skills who is milking anti-apple sentiment by butthurt cheapos to the point where his misguided ranting on youtube is majority of his revenue.\n\nThe guy is a hipster cunt that brings nothing of value.", '>\tnow make it free to download xcode, all the sdks and upload an app to the store. Google aren’t much better, but a paying 25 dollars once is pretty thin against the hundreds a year it costs to maintain an ios app.\n\nIt is free to download Xcode and all SDKs and develop ad-hoc deployed apps as long as you’d like. Only once you want to deploy an app to the store do you have to pay $99/yr. IMO, a reasonable charge compared to Google’s considering the average App Store spend per user on each platform.', 'You are correct, people down voting simply dont understand the $99 annual apple developer requirement to publish any app.\n\nAlso xcode is one of the hardest apps to support, it has to be on the absolute latest version or you cant publish, and forces you to upgrade MacOS every few weeks.', 'That doesn’t even make sense.', 'Choose android then and enjoy the freedom of being used by google, samsung and htc all at the same time.', 'Android is a brand.', 'I really don’t understand why this is downvoted. Probably Android users that feel attacked. iOS is great because it isn’t Android. They’re total opposites for a reason. Android is open, and in turn, app design sucks but that’s the compromise and for a lot of people, they don’t care. Apple is locked down for the sake of consistency and quality. Can we stop trying to make iOS like Android, and Android like iOS? Or are we still too hung up on which opinion is the correct one.  Apple haters need to grow the fuck up and stop trying to push their own decisions as the correct one. Enjoy your phone. No adult cares why you chose yours, and nothing is wrong about deciding to go with an iPhone.', "Because when they sell through the apple store apple take a cut. Apples rules are that if you try and sell things in a way that avoids the transaction going through their store they'll kick you off their service. Word press decided to simply not try and sell anything to apple users so they could retain the full sale value of products they sold on their site. Apple being greedy fucks threatened to remove their app if they didn't start giving apple a cut on their sales.", 'Got caught doing what? This is a pretty fucking obvious misstep by an App Store employee.', 'Maybe, but it’s a big company with many people doing reviews. People make bad decisions and mistakes.', "Somewhere deep in the links on the app was the link to buy a URL in the website.  WordPress removed it and add said that wasn't good enough.", "Weird, I've always seen it the opposite in r/technology. People praise or defend Apple for things that make no sense.\n\nMandatory walled gardens on devices? You know they can still maintain the same experience for people who want it with an opt-in / opt-out toggle, right? \n\nFighting tooth and nail against consumers' right to repair? Building their devices to hinder the ability for a consumer to repair a device for a reasonable price? i.e. unnecessarily soldering certain components to the board, creating new types of non-standardized connectors with the same exact functionality to prevent third-party repair businesses from doing an easy repair, etc.\n\nThere is so much slimy shit that Apple does to squeeze their largely unknowing customers. At some point, there has to be a line where their actions are deemed anticompetitive in nature, for which we do have laws on the books to allow intervention. Where that exact line is will be up to the courts to decide. But its ignorance to act like there isn't any reason for apple to be reigned in.", '"Apple protects consumers" Apple only proctects Apple\'s money', 'Yep. Simple and clear as that.', 'Lol no. Fuck them both.', '2 multimillion dollar, anticonsumer corporations arguing through law about who gets to keep the bigger slice of pie. No good fight here.', "> Epic games is fighting the good fight right now.\n\nThey are also suing Google, who allowed side loading. They ain't fighting the good fight at all, they just have a good PR department to cover up how fucking scummy they are.", 'MacOS and Android both warn you about installing applications from outside of their respective app stores, but allow you to do it anyways by changing a device setting. iOS should be the same way.', 'They can offer users guarentees of quality without forcing users to install only from their app store. If their app store business model is built on exclusivity and monopoly, let it be destroyed overnight and world will become a better place.', 'They’ve also built the macOS ecosystem, that has years of support for old hardware, and allows installations from any source. \nThere goes your theory.', "Quality isn't a cost of.money, Apple. Its a cost of user expirence", 'Nothing about this is correct.', 'Almost like having your eyes opened to how shitty Apple is would make you hate Apple\n\nWeird how being informed works', "I'm with you on this one. We should just ignore the criticisms and praise the predatory behavior because Apple knows what's best for all of us..\n\nI never read anything bad about Apple, just Android and Windows.", "So I only have to pay 99 a year if I want users to actually be able to use my apps.\n\nCool. I think I'll just not and develop for Android instead, sorry Apple fan boys but I don't like your big brother's prices.", "I don't want to pay or be paid, the company I work for charges thousands of dollars a year to use the services I maintain and develop for, in return they give me more than enough to drink excessively and eat from food delivery apps. \n\nThere's almost nothing more I want besides to drink less, but I think that's my own fault unless I want to blame it on reviewing four lines of code that took four days to write.", "Consumers and creators are two different groups with different motivations. Creators want to do as much as possible as easily as possible whereas consumers don't mind spending money to feel included or to participate in loyalty to a group.", 'Don’t bother arguing with these kinds of people. Just downvote and move on.', 'they could just sell with a higher price. pass on the extra cost to their customers.', 'No, the app got reinstated once the dev removed the commercial in-app purchase link. Rules were followed.', "Apple shouldn't have done that, but now they say it was good enough.\n\nBut it was in there, right? You are posting a non-denial denial.\n\nApple's TOS says you can't have references to buy stuff (for certain definitions of stuff) in the app directly and you can't link to webpages about buying stuff from the app.\n\nThey linked to webpages to buy stuff in the app, did they not?", 'Epic is literally seeking an order forcing Apple to allow you to sideload apps. \n\n>Accordingly, Epic seeks injunctive relief in court to end Apple’s unreasonable and unlawful practices.  Apple’s conduct has caused and continues to cause Epic financial harm, but as noted above, Epic is not bringing this case to recover these damages; Epic is not seeking any monetary damages.  Instead, Epic seeks to end Apple’s dominance over key technology markets, open up the space for progress and ingenuity, and ensure that Apple mobile devices are open to the same competition as Apple’s personal computers.  As such, Epic respectfully requests this Court to enjoin Apple from continuing to impose its anti-competitive restrictions on the iOS ecosystem and ensure 2020 is not like “1984”. \n\n\nIf they win, I will be able to download whatever app I want from the internet and install it on my phone.', 'why?', "No, this wouldn't work out really great! Look, let's take out the malware and virus problem which would happen, when you could install apps from the outside from AppStore:\n\nOn macOS there is no design rule for developers, how they want to make their macOS app. Even the icon can look whatever they like it should look like.\n\nBut on the iPhone, there are UI/UX rules every developer needs to follow. The app icon must be an exact squircle, the screen resolution and aspect ratio needs to be followed. The app should use the new iOS features etc. And Apple forces the developer to update their apps, when they're too old. \n\nIf everyone can make apps for iPhone outside from the AppStore we would have chaotic apps that don't follow any rules. iOS would turn to a fucking mess, where nothing really works, shitty looks and nothing really fits. The same problem already has Android. \n\nAlso a problem, why people don't upgrade their Android versions. While on iPhone everyone upgrades.\n\nI don't want this shit on my iPhone or on the iPhones of others. I don't want to tell my friends: «Sorry, but we can't share/play/whatever together, because you need to upgrade your phone first!» and my friend will then respond with: «But then this app will not work anymore, I can't upgrade». \n\nI don't want to be *forced* to install an app from outside, because the developer doesn't want to bring their app to the AppStore because he wants to save some money. But because I need it for work or whatever, I'm forced to install such apps from the outside.\n\nNo! I'm really happy how clean iOS is and how every app fits my iPhone because they had to follow a design guide.\n\nAnd Apple is bringing with iOS14 more transparency to the apps. You can see which personal data the app uses etc.\n\nHow should I know this anymore, when I have to install the apps outside from the AppStore?\n\nI always have seen the iPhone as the little brother of the Mac, and not a computer that should replace a desktop computer.\n\nIf you want a chaotic but open system, go to Android. But I don't want a chaotic system, that's why I use an iPhone.\n\nI fucking don't want this whole shit show on my iPhone. Keep the fucking AppStore, no third party apps! Go to android, if you like to have a mess!", "So you are suggesting that Apple takes on vetting all software published on other app stores that might be allowed on the iOS?\n\nI, for one, wouldn't trust anything from epic store after their predatory tactics with buyouts of games from Steam. And the huuuuge amount of cheapo filler content it's in their store.", "I'm not sure what this gibberish was meant to say.\n\nMy point was that making it free for all the quality of the platform will get fucked. Making it worthless for everyone equally. Kinda like tragedy of the commons which is so visible on Android.", 'It’s not being informed though, it’s being prejudiced. Which isn’t the same thing.', 'What a trash rebuttal.', 'Cool, then no one will pay for your app and you’ll make little to no money. Especially since iOS users are exponentially more likely to spend money on apps.', 'That makes even less sense.\n\nEdit:\n\nYou linked to a claim that \n>\tApple’s Operating Systems Are Malware\n\nYou’re either insane or willfully deluding yourself.', 'It literally is a software brand.', 'Or they could tell apple to go and fuck themselves!', 'That’s my point.', "It was way down in the stuff nobody reads. \n\nEven Apple is now admitting they were wrong, which doesn't happen.", 'A silver lining, not a good fight.', "The entire point I'm trying to make is that some of us WANT that freedoms that you are arguing are bad. And yes, I do use android, but I'd probably switch if Apple's ecosystem wasn't so locked down. I don't mind apple being exceptionally careful and strict in their own store, but I at least want to *option* to install stuff that isn't forced into all of those tight restrictions. Seriously, those tightly enforced restrictions are exactly what stop me from ever considering using an iOS device as my primary phone.\n\niOS isn't much more secure because it can't install third party apps. It's secure because few hackers target it since it's a smaller marketshare. If Google Play were more strict and curated I wouldn't mind at all, but I'd be absolutely pissed if they also prevented us from installing third party apps.\n\nAlso your point about Apple making permissions more transparent is entirely muted by the fact that every single app on Android, from the Google Play store or not, needs to request permission from the user to do most things (the OS literally pops up a dialog asking if you want to let an app do something). There's no need for that part of the OS security system to be stuck to the app store.", 'Funny, when steam was being forced to be able to run half life and CS, the community wasn’t happy either. \n\nSeveral years after...', "Think about it this way, yes Epic store is inferior to steam, but their competition benefits consumers and give them power to make choices. There are also gog, and many other smaller platforms. If there's only one platform to buy games from on PC, that platform will inevitably start making predatory business practices. \n\nThe same applies to Apple. If the Apple store remains the only way to install apps on iDevices, then Apple will, not only lax on vetting apps, inevitably abuse its market power. It already is doing that. The Apple store stipulates that any browsers app must use Apple's own browser engine webkit. If a company can make a new, innovative browser engine, it will be less incentivized to do so because it knows that it won't be able push it product to the Apple store.", 'TIL you can never learn and change your mind about something, that’s just called being prejudiced...', "Being informed doesn't mean never taking a position. It means you know well enough that you have the privledge of taking a position and know what you're talking about, which given apple's history makes perfect sense being prejudiced against.", '...okay?\n\nCould you explain why I need to pay money to Apple in order to use my time charitably? I just want to give users free stuff.', 'Someone has never heard of FOSS', 'It depends greatly what the app is...', "> Cool, then no one will pay for your app and you’ll make little to no money.\n\nAndroid controls 74% of the market.  I think they'll do just fine.\n\n> Especially since iOS users are exponentially more likely to spend money on apps.\n\nGot a source for that?", 'so no misstep. Link was there - rejection. Link was removed - approval. There was no fucking misstep anywhere.', "> It was way down in the stuff nobody reads.\n\nIs it there or not?\n\nAnother non-denial denial.\n\n> Even Apple is now admitting they were wrong, which doesn't happen.\n\nYou say it doesn't happen. Did it happen?\n\nIs there any intersection between reality and your world?", "So why are you then not using Android where you have all those things and freedoms you like? I don't want it, that's why I bought an iPhone. It's ok, if you want all those *freedom* things. There are enough other brands. \n\nYou missed the iOS14 keynote. It's not about giving permission, this is already on iOS and macOS since years.\n\nI'm talking about this: https://www.forbes.com/sites/kateoflahertyuk/2020/06/23/apple-ios-14-revealed-3-awesome-iphone-security-features-youll-want-now/\n\nThis wouldn't work on Android, because no one needs to use the Playstore. So every developer would just say: «Fuck this, lets sell our app outside from the AppStore.»\n\nThere will never be a «eierlegende Wollmilchsau» (this is German and describes something that is perfect and has no downsides). \n\nA closed AppStore like Apple has, has it ups and downsides. An open system like Android where no one needs to use the PlayStore has it ups and downsides.\n\nYou may like the upsides of the Android system, I like the upsides of the iOS system more. Please go to Android. People like you shouldn't use Apple products.\n\nIf we get a system like Android, we also have the same problems and downsides as Android has. And I really don't want this! I'm happy with the closed system on the iPhone.", "> not only lax on vetting apps, inevitably abuse its market power. It already is doing that.\n\nInterestingly I see exactly the opposite. I used to be mobile dev for close to 15 years. Original AT&T iphone was announced when I was sitting in the office with number of mobile apps awards on shelve a few meters from me (for some reason it was always marketdroids that got to collect and hold onto them).\n\nThat age in mobile apps was a shitstorm. You had walled gardens left and right (3, AT&T, TMobile, Verizon, everyone was in on having their own app store) and the main decision on whether your app could get on the particular store was exclusivity and commercial agreements.\n\n80%+ of revenue going to operator was not uncommon. That's despite the emerging 3G ecosystem and manufacturers (especially Nokia) throwing hundreds of millions to support creating of killer apps to sell devices - except they always failed to reach customers due to some shit exclusivity agreements by operators.\n\nThankfully Apple killed that model. The biggest achievement by Apple was not the cool device or their SDKs (that all came later), but wrestling control of what user can or cannot do with their device away from mobile network operators. THAT. WAS. MASSIVE.\n\n---\n\nComparing Apples walled garden to the dark ages is absolutely wrong. For mobile operators the focus was to ship as many shit as they could get devs pay for space on the front page of their wap sites. The quality of what was available for download ranged from shit to atracious to outright fraudulent and scammy. Yes, I have built a few j2me ringtone/wallpapers stores myself. Regret it.\n\n---\n\nApple does not care about your network operator and extracting maximum revenue from your contract. Apple cares about making the iEcosystem attractive. Every single app store submission rejection I have encountered myself was pushing app to be made better.\n\n* Make this flow clearer, you are confusing user\n* You are using assets that will look like shit on devices you are targeting\n* You are using APIs that break users privacy and are undocumented. Do not do that.\n* Can you explain why your fart app is sending users contact list to your servers?\n\nare just a few examples.\n\nApple gatekeeps quality. And they do it really really well. With individual, actual, reviews. Of course there will be devs butthurt that their brilliant revolutionary idea of an app (shit) is not welcomed with open hands, but that's GOOD.\n\nWhen I open google play store and try to use something from there I want to throw the device against the wall in frustration. The amount of crap just on the front pages is reminding me of traumatic 3 walled garden quality.\n\n---\n\nPeople complain because they do not realize what's the alternative. Be careful what you wish for. Apple review-process single handedly has forced mobile app developers to even bother to test their shit. And that spills to other platforms.", 'You already have a choice of different app stores on mobile. Get an Android and install whatever you want! \n\nThe reason I buy any iDevice is exactly the lack of crapware on it, get it.', 'What u/Selethorme meant is that you are learning from a very biased source.', 'But you’re not informed. You’re prejudiced. This is quite obviously the anti-Apple Reddit stereotype in a nutshell.', 'Because that’s the way it fucking works, champ. No one wants your charity when we have much higher quality options available.', 'The little copycat apps that are released for free that try and mimic full scale professional apps? \n\nI sure have, Richard Stallman.', 'https://www.businessinsider.com/apple-users-spend-twice-apps-vs-android-charts-2018-7\n\nOof. If only you googled before making your silly comment.', 'So you’ve also got no problem with Microsoft and their practices because you can install windows on hardware from different manufacturers?', 'No, because for a short time Apple rejected it after the link was removed. Hence the apology.', "Nothing prevents Apple from enforcing those privacy rules on their app store but still allowing people to install external apps. And being on the Play Store on Android would still be important even if Google added the same restrictions. A lot of people won't trust third party apps, and nor should they, that's why there's a setting you have to opt-in to be able to install them, and IMO that's enough of a deterrent for people who want to stay safe and a small enough hurdle for power users to go through with.\n\nNow you're just gatekeeping for no reason.", "I'm so glad Apple is protecting consumers from the dangers of evil Project Xcloud. If stupid consumers had their way they might use Apple devices to play real video games. The horror!", 'What about Louis Rossmann Videos is biased?  Is he making false claims?  Misrepresenting facts?  Omitting key information?  I don’t understand how you could call his channel biased.  He explains his criticisms in great detail, they are all cogent and supported by verifiable facts.  \n\nHe disagrees with most of Apple’s business practices and treatment of customers & authorized repair partners.\n\nJust because someone is consistently critical of something doesn’t mean they are automatically somehow biased against that thing.', 'All sources are biased.', "Yes, every Apple criticism has an agenda. Apple literally can't be evil. I hate this anti-Apple circlejerk from people with their cheapo phones and laptops. smh", "It's the opposite here mate. We have every reason to believe that apple is an anti-competative, anti-consumer, overall privledged rich kid company that no longer innovates and uses their IP to hold the market hostage.\n\nAgain, you can be prejudiced for *good reason*, as in *being informed*. That's a very basic reasoning skill you should have picked up if you're going to participate in online discussions.", "You speak for everyone?\n\nA lot of people don't have the means to pay for apps, why are you so insensitive to that? With a fee I'm encouraged to charge for apps I really don't want any money for", 'Even Microsoft uses open source software these days.', 'Yes, people are more likely to have to pay for things on Apple\'s platform.  I\'m still waiting for the source that shows that it\'s "exponentially more".  Oof, if only you googled what "exponential" means before making your silly comment.', "Apple makes it more difficult for developers to not use ads and shit on their apps. They also force those developer to make their business model more transparency.\n\nAs long as the developers have to use the AppStore, they will have to stick to the rules, whether they like it or not. As soon as the AppStore no longer needs to be used, the developers will say at some point: «Fuck it! Lets publish this app outside from the AppStore.» \n\nThis is the point where the AppStore is gradually becoming less relevant and we have to install apps outside from the AppStore. This is the point where iOS becomes a fucking mess.\n\nWhy don't you just go to Android? Why do you want iOS like Android? I also don't go to Android and say it should be a closed system!", "As stated in [https://ohiostate.pressbooks.pub/choosingsources/chapter/degree-of-bias](https://ohiostate.pressbooks.pub/choosingsources/chapter/degree-of-bias):\n\n>Probably all sources exhibit some bias (...). But that kind of unavoidable bias is very different from a wholesale effort to shape the message so the site (or other source) amounts to a persuasive advertisement for something important to the author.\n\nIn other words, it is not a matter of being biased or not. It is a matter of recognising how biased the sources are.\n\nLouis Rossmann's videos attempt to persuade people's opinion on the maintenance and repair of consumables. His videos are too biased to allow you to form your own opinion without complementary data from more neutral (i.e. less biased) sources.", "Yes, I speak for the iOS users. Like how the Lorax speaks for the trees. \n\n>\tA lot of people don't have the means to pay for apps\n\nThen they can’t buy iPhones to begin with and it’s a non-issue. \n\nThe rest of us will take quality apps from people that want to be on the platform.", '**TWICE** as likely. Exponentially is a figure of speech. Imagine arguing these semantics when you’ve been proven wrong lmao', 'Wooooow ... jumping to conclusions much?\n\nMaybe your paranoia is complicating this for you, but I didn’t downvote you nor make any claims about which system I supported. My question was purely for clarification.', "That seems a little elitist, owning an iPhone won't make up for that personality trait", "It's a sad day for iOS users if everyone thinks like you. But well, if you wanna reject free stuff it's your call.", "I haven't been proven wrong.  You just admitted to exaggerating.  And your original point, that an app developed for android will make no money and be bought by nobody, is just idiotic.", 'Owning an iPhone is the ultimate flex on poor people that have to settle for android devices.', 'The free stuff on both platforms is usually garbage compared to the paid apps. Built in ads, IAP to unlock features making them not truly free, poor coding, etc. \n\nI don’t need an Android user telling me what’s best for the iOS platform lmao', "LOL my link literally proves you wrong. 200% more likely to buy an app isn’t an exaggeration at all. Literally twice as likely. \n\n>\tthat an app developed for android will make no money and be bought by nobody, is just idiotic. \n\n\nhttps://youtu.be/XCvwCcEP74Q?t=895\n\n“For those of you carrying an iPhone it means you’re wealthier, better educated and more likely to have more options with who you mate with” \n\n-\tProfessor Scott Galloway\n\niPhone users have the money to spend on apps and better hardware while Android users don’t. This is backed by the link and quote above. \n\nhttps://appleinsider.com/articles/19/07/03/apples-app-store-generated-80-more-revenue-than-google-play-with-a-third-as-many-installs-in-first-half-of-2019\n\n>\tWhile Google's store saw about 2.8 times the install volume of Apple's App Store, iOS generated nearly 1.8 times the revenue, Sensor Tower said.\n\nLiterally all of this is on Google if you just look, but that would mean you’d be proving yourself wrong and that wouldn’t be in your interests. I can guess which piece of hardware you own based on your responses thus far and extrapolating from Prof Galloway’s research.", 'Exactly, and I would personally consider Windows to be similar in nature - able to install on different hardware - hence my *objective, fair* question.\n\nAnd while you’ve since deleted your response - you were on a rant about how I’d downvoted you, deny that as you might.', "Nah don't worry about me, I don't wanna be an iSheep like you.", "Every link that you've posted has disproven your point so far.  You keep grasping at straws in an attempt to prove yourself right about everything except your original statement:\n\n> Cool, then no one will pay for your app and you’ll make little to no money.", ">\tEvery link that you've posted has disproven your point so far.\n\nYou’re delusional or dyslexic. \n\nYou will make little to no money on Android. Apps that release on both platforms see significantly more sales on iOS to the point where they almost have to make them free and put ads in their app to see any revenue from the platform. \n\nI notice you didn’t have anything smart to say about Prof Galloway’s research calling Android users stupid and poor 😂", "> You will make little to no money on Android.\n\n> You’re delusional or dyslexic. \n\nYep.\n\n> I notice you didn’t have anything smart to say about Prof Galloway’s research calling Android users stupid and poor \n\nI also have nothing to say about most of the president's claims.  People in normally respected positions sometimes say stupid things.", "> People in normally respected positions sometimes say stupid things.\n\nLOL if you watch the whole video it's backed up by facts. Android is popular in the poorer and less educated areas, iOS is more popular in richer and better educated areas.\n\nBut again, that wouldn't work towards your argument so why would you educate yourself instead of remaining ignorant?", 'you know things went wrong when you have to recommend Bing as an alternative to your product ...', "> There are already more than 100 million iOS devices using the new Apple Maps\n\nWell of course. You changed the default maps, so any app that was using your default map services is now using the new maps. If we had a choice we wouldn't be.", 'typical Redditor:\n> What? They *apologized*? Bastards.', "Glad I didn't update to the new iOS. ", "That's gotta hurt, publicly apologizing for your flagship improvement to the OS.\n\nSo can we assume that his recommendation for other tools is a sign that the Google Maps app will be beat down?", "Crazy thing is according to TomTom there is no problem in the actual map data they provided. (I think they're right. I've driven across Europe without major problems using TomTom. There were no complaints about the TomTom App according to the 4.5 star reviews). According to TomTom, Appel combines their data with data from other sources and Apple has a problem combining/rendering the data...\n\nhttp://www.reuters.com/article/2012/09/21/tomtom-apple-maps-idUSL5E8KLHPX20120921\n", 'Jobs would not have let it be released. He would have delayed, or more likely, kicked enough ass to get it tested and signed off prior to launch date.\n\nApple starting to loose their edge already perhaps.', "I don't think an apology is enough.  The engineers working on this app a month, a week, and a day before release knew how bad it was.  Management released it anyway.  The apology should have been proactive, not reactive.  The timing of this is only the result of bad press, not because Apple actually feels bad.", 'I\'ve used the maps on IOS6 and so far they have been fine.  Not as good as the old Google maps, not even as good as Waze maps but they are functional and are already improving.  It\'s a near impossible task to release a new maps application fully baked, especially when Google has an 8 year head start.\n\nApple did what it had to do to bring turn by turn without ads to the iPhone.  Google did what they had to do to prevent giving a competitor an advantage.\n\nTo hear Tim Cook come out in a very non-Jobs like fashion makes me worry, especially when combined with the "scuffgate" that\'s been happening with the iPhone 5.  In addition, something I\'ve noticed but isn\'t getting as much attention is the very inconsistant interface changes that have been made in IOS6 and issues with the App Store.\n\nSteve Jobs was obsessive about the details, things didn\'t make it to the market unless they looked and acted perfectly, at least as perfectly as possible.  The iPhone 4 and 4s were marvels of industrial design but just as importantly they were jewel like in their perfection.  The iPhone 5 is perhaps an even better design but sadly the materials used seem to be of a much poorer quality or at least the QA is letting far more imperfect devices through.  iPhones are arriving new in box with scratches and scuffs.  The anodizing is thin and unprotected so that even if you receive a perfect device it won\'t look like that for long.  The two that I have seen so far have both either arrived with scratches or have developed them in just a few days and these are owned by people as obsessive about their gadgets as me.\n\nIOS6 is filled with inconsistant UI issues.  The phone app has been changed to a white buttoned screen with a font that\'s much more difficult to read than the old black interface.  The white buttons are not consistant across other Apple apps.  The scrollbars, sliders and buttons look different in each app, in the music app they do this cool animated \'reflection\' effect but elsewhere they are static.\n\nThe new App Store is awful, it\'s ugly, it cuts off icons, the buttons move around (updates is sometimes the middle button, sometimes the farthest left or right button) and despite the icons and descriptions being more compact, less information is available now than there was before.\n\nMaps, actually looks good, and it\'s actually useable and will improve.  It\'s honestly the least of my concerns with this latest hardware and software release.  To read an apology for it but ignoring all the other issues shows me that Apple is no longer the company it was under Jobs.\n\nI really wonder what\'s in store for Apple going forward.', "I'm happy to try Apple's new map application.  However, I would never give up my current map application in order to do so.", 'Waze is actually pretty good but it really gives your battery a workout.', "I tried to test GPS Drive as an alternative to find a location yesterday, a national chain restaurant that has been in this town for over ten years, right beside the mall. It directed me to the opposite side of the mall from where the restaurant is actually located. As I have become used to doing with Maps, I sent a correction through the app.\n\nThe their credit, the developer responded pretty quickly, something Apple has yet to do for any of the corrections I have sent them. GPS Drive apologized and explained their location database is supplied by Bing. \n\nIt's like five years ago all over again. I've got a map, I know where I am on the map, but I am once again extremely hesitant to let any app give me directions to an location as opposed to an address. ", 'Google has something like 7k people working on Google maps and has been doing it for awhile.  Also they bought out Maps and that already had a huge advantage. It is not something Apple can just make better. Actually I would question if it is even financially worth it to try to complete against Google at this point.', "I'm glad he at least had the dignity to mention Google Maps.\n\nBut the question is, would Mr. Jobs have released this product in it's current state?", 'I do not understand why they did not settle with Google to use their turn-by-turn voice directions.  Works flawlessly on my Android.  Now he recommends Bing as an alternative? ', 'Fucking immature assholes. . .\n\nI just can picture the brainstorming behind the plan to drop Google Maps.  "We can\'t use Google Maps anymore cause Google\'s a bunch of jerks.  Plus, how hard is it to build a global mapping system.  We\'re Apple, we can do anything!  Steve (RIP) told us so."', 'This move is very un-Apple and quite surprising. Unfortunately, I have a hard time believing that they had no idea their maps were unacceptable. It\'s somewhat insulting. \n\nImagine if a lawyer earning $150 per hour drew up a contract consisting of 2 pages with "ERMAHGERD! CERNTRERCT!" on the first page and "eggsekutiv kontrakt stuff" written on the second in crayon. His only response to any complaints would be "I am sorry about that. I usually strive for excellence. I\'m sorry. I\'ll make it better soon. ". How would that make you feel?\n\nI would say "This is unacceptable and you should have known better. You\'re fired.". \n\nSome people are being way too forgiving of a company with so much idle cash and who trumpets itself as a provider of solutions that are supposed to just work.\ufeff', 'Dunno..."Just Bing It" just doesnt sound as right as "Just Google It" and you know you dun goofed when you have to recommend Bing over your own product', '[direct link to letter from Tim Cook](http://www.apple.com/letter-from-tim-cook-on-maps/)', "I'm surprised he didn't blame the users for holding it wrong.", 'Hinting at Bing replacing Google search? ', "They held a press conf for him for this but he didn't make it because his Maps app didn't let him make it there. ", 'I chuckle at this letter. I bet Google is laughing their #$%$ off this very moment.', 'how embarassing', "Bing?!?! I'd rather die in the wilderness. Who recommends Bing?!?! ", "This is what happens when you can't play nice with others.  Maybe next they'll block google search from iOS.", 'This wont happen if the late Jobs is still the CEO.', "Cook is hands down Jobs' inferior. ", "I feel this was a bold move on Apple's part, but for god sakes why recommend Bing first?  Couldn't they have put Google up front?  Sigh.", "They say it will get better. It will not. They day it is better is the day bing is better than google. It isn't going to happen. Do they know this? Do they know why? Is this communique just something they feel they are supposed to say or are they really that clueless?", "I think it's funny that he's humiliated enough to recommend Mapquest (?!) and Bing, but he still can't bring himself to say the G-word.\n\nEdit: Never mind, I'm kinda dumb. K4f123 helped me see the light.", 'Bahahahaha he publicly admitted to screwing up AND he managed to also direct users to their two biggest rivals.  Steve Jobs would have blown a gasket and melted down.  Sell, sell, sell', 'What has Chandler from friends got to do with cartography?  Is that what the WENUS is about?', "I like how he said to go to Google's website, rather than giving the ability to download their Maps application.", 'I forget who, I think this guy, has a personal problem with some google executive and this is why we all lose google maps. I will not buy another apple product with maps unless it has google maps.', 'ive used bing a few time, i was impressed. ', 'You can really tell how bad Apple hates Google when they cut off their google maps and instead recommend using a Microsoft product.  Apple and Microsoft working together? Must be apocalypse.', "it's too funny. removed google maps so he can't recommend google. ", 'And things went even worse when you have to recommend MapQuest', "We do have a choice. I'm still running iOS 5.", "I know right, just like how millions of people use internet explorer. must be a great web browser because it's forced upon people right?", 'You do have a choice. ', 'I think he was trying to point out how many participants they have for crowd-sourced data, but in a slightly roundabout way.', "What's your point? You're pointing out that he's telling the truth, but seemingly in an accusatory tone. It's clear from the statement that he's mentioning the number of users not to pretend that people are fine with the app, but rather to inform you that the app will improve steadily with that many users.", "I have to wait too first time ever. I blame Tim Cook for caring more about pushing out google than their customers' experience. ", 'Depends on how much you depend on maps.  Apple\'s maps aren\'t awful, just lacking Google\'s detail and accuracy, which isn\'t surprising.\n\nGoogle\'s mobile maps site still works fine for finding items.  Apple maps turn-by-turn is pretty slick, but I\'ve only used it twice while traveling.\n\nMostly I think it\'s the missing features that bug people.  The train/bus schedules, etc.  I laughed out loud when I saw Apple had the local-transportation button on their maps.  At first I was like "Apple has it too?  How did they get it working so fast?" and then I clicked it....and took me to the app store and suggested a $2 third-party app instead of google\'s mobile map site.  \n\nOverall iOS is nice but this definitely is a flaw in the the diamond.  I have no doubt though that Apple will pour a ton of money into making it better.  The question is can they compete with Google which reportedly has a staff of 7000 employees dedicated just to maps?  (someone correct me if I heard wrong)', 'Nah, I think he just put it that way because Bing, Wyze and others have actual apps in the App Store, but not yet Google or Nokia. So he can do little else than to recommend using the apps in case there are those, or web sites in case there are those.', "I swear it's the Yelp integration that is screwing up location search.  It feels like higher rated places show up instead of the actual place you were searching for.", 'Jobs would have never apologized', 'wwjd', 'Hard not to make this statement whenever Apple has a stumble from here on out, but let us not forget there were stories about Jobs being furious at released products back in the day as well.  He had to come out and give a press conference about the iPhone 4 antenna issue.  Etc. etc.', "You're right, because Jobs never released an unperfect product.\n\nThe funny thing is, reddit used to bitch about Jobs' letting out MobileMe, his unapologetic nature over Antennagate, over iTunes, etc. But now suddenly everyone's suddenly lamenting Jobs. \n\nJobs would absolutely have let it be released. He just wouldn't have apologized for it.", 'It\'s not that easy to say. Steve Jobs *hated* Google for copying iPhone with Android. It\'s not that hard to imagine that he would have very little patience with Google, and also decided to also rush out their own maps app to cut their ties with Google further. Especially if Google has changed the terms of service for using their maps.\n\nI\'m not saying you\'re necessarily wrong. But I have a feeling that "Steve Jobs would/would not have done this or that" and "Apple is going downhill" is going to be a big meme going forward. ', "why'd he let MobileMe be released then? more accurately, he'd have fired everyone responsible after it fell on its face", 'The first couple of generations of iphones could barely get a signal (even compared to other phones on AT&T) and Jobs had no problem releasing them.', 'I imagine this is exactly how it would have still played out even with Jobs at the helm. Have you already forgotten MobileMe? Ping? iTunes itself? Antenna-gate?', 'Steve Jobs is rolling in his grave.', 'Jobs would have convinced everyone that the limitations were features and that they were lucky Apple exists to enrich their lives.', "Agree completely but under the circumstances (i.e. given the fact the app is live and they can't roll back time), i think an apology is the right thing to do... it's what i would do.\n\nThe hard part of course is actually carrying out the promise of making Apple Maps a product that is worthy of a 'best in the world' title. If version 1 is anything to go by, that's gonna take a long time and a hell of a lot more effort.", 'So stick with Google then?', "This was always the fear, that the only person who could keep Apple on track was Jobs, and when he retired or the unthinkable that did happen, Apple would quickly slip back into it's old ways. I hope this is just a transitional misstep that will be corrected, and not the sign of things to come. With Google eating up market share at a breakneck pace, Apple can't afford any further missteps.", 'I hate the new keypad for phone dialing', "> Actually I would question if it is even financially worth it to try to complete against Google at this point.\n\niOS still pulls in roughly 4x the revenue to Google than the entirety of the Android project does. Google doesn't sell products, they sell your attention to advertisers.\n\nIt's not just worth it, it's necessary. Either that or Google gets to keep using maps to strongarm themselves into a comfortable position in iOS, meanwhile using that revenue stream to fund development of the Android mapping app, further increasing the disparity between the two products.\n\nWhy everyone is acting like Google is so saintly in this situation is beyond me. Who cares about the year left on the contract? It was a shitty contract, one that was holding Apple back. All you're doing is postponing the inevitable and giving Google more opportunity to increase the gap between their Android app and their public API.\n\nIf Apple hadn't made this move now, we would look back on iOS as a cautionary tale of why you don't let a software partner with their own motivations get too close to the users.", 'Because that was never an option?', "He only mentioned *all the other map services.*  It wasn't a recommendation, only an argument that iOS still has access to every map.\n\nGoogle wasn't going to allow turn-by-turn unless they got a bigger logo, advertisements on top of the maps and integration with Google Latitude.  In other words money wasn't good enough for Google, they wanted to crustify a built-in app with ads; they wanted brand prominence - it goes against Apple's MO.", '>We\'re Apple, we can do anything! Steve (RIP) told us so.\n\nI thought the work experience at Apple was more along the lines of "We\'d better do anything Steve tells us to!".', '> Imagine if a lawyer earning $150 per hour drew up a contract consisting of 2 pages with "ERMAHGERD! CERNTRERCT!"\n\nAnother person who has spent two minutes max with the new Mapping application feels the need to tell us how bad it is in wildly inaccurate metaphorical terms.\n\nI almost wonder if my experience using Maps over the last 3 months where I was able to find almost everything I was looking for and rely on it for directions just didn\'t happen. I mean when so many people with zero invested in the topic come by to shit all over it, you\'ve gotta assume something is up.\n\nBut no, the searches are still right there saved in my phone. I distinctly remember showing up at those locations I had never been to before, not getting lost. Hmm. Maybe it was a fluke.', 'Sounds like "just bin it"', "> Apple released maps that had 1/3rd the quality of the maps they had before. Where's the logic in that?\n\nIt's not like the new maps are *universally* worse. There are parts of the world (eg, [China](http://anthonydrendel.com/) ) where the new maps from Apple are much better than the old ones  from Google. We only *hear about* the places where people are complaining, but you can't tell from that how common the problem is. Being worse in *some* places might well be a sensible and worthwhile tradeoff for being better in others, being able to introduce new features you didn't have before, and securing a longer-term strategy.\n\nUPDATE: added a link to a relevant blog with comparison shots.", 'Not clear if you mean Google would block searches from iOS or Apple would block Google Search entirely, but either company would have to hate money in order for that to happen.', '>This is what happens when you make a shitty app\n\nFTFY\n\n', 'Yeah, he would have told his customers to fuck off.', 'Bing is an app; Google is a website that you can make an app shortcut for.', 'Probably politics, their biggest mobile competitor is Google (Android) not Microsoft so the speechwriter PR guy probably recommended to put the "underdogs" first and find a way to put Google somewhere in the middle not too prominently.', 'No actually you\'re interpreting "it will get better" as "it will soon be the best". Nobody said that, because it\'s not possible. Nobody is about to leapfrog Google on mapping or search.\n\nHowever, iOS maps will get better. That\'s a pretty safe bet right there.', "He did recommend Google Maps as well. Don't blow things out of proportion.", 'It was necessary, but you\'re right. Basically the decision to launch Apple Maps was Cook\'s to say no to. He didn\'t and he fucked up along with the people below him. Someone should have said "this is shit, it doesn\'t get past me until i\'m happy with it, then it gets bumped up another level for approval / rejection".\n\nSo the whole chain of command failed big time and it\'s ultimately Cook\'s responsibility. Once it was launched, there was no going back so Cook could do a few things:\n\n* Nothing\n* Apologise\n* Reverse the decision and go crawling back to Google to renegotiate a deal\n\nThe third option realistically wouldn\'t happen. Shareholders would have a fit plus it would make Cook look like he doesn\'t know what he\'s at. Apologising was the \'human\' option... it shows Cook listens, he acknowledges people\'s concerns and lets people know he\'s gonna address them.\n\nDoing nothing is what many would have expected because it\'s a cowardly move that would suggest Apple believe their product is superior to Google Maps (otherwise why would they replace it). That quite clearly isn\'t the case (non apple fanboys will tell you that), so saying nothing would again be the wrong move imo.\n\nI think Cook has handled this as best as he could have, given the circumstances. He\'s basically admitted he made a mistake which is a difficult thing to do so for that he deserves some credit and it\'s restored my faith in him because it shows he lives in the real world and is very aware of how his products stack up -v- the competition.', 'Google has not submitted a Maps app to the App Store. ', '"fullerton brown line" takes me to Los Angeles in Google Maps. \n\nGoogle has your localization information. Bing does not. ', 'Anything that is not  OSM or Google, sucks dick in the third world.', "Maybe Bing is acceptable if you're in major metropolitan areas in the United States. But, for example, here's Chengdu, the capital of Sichuan province in China, a city of over 14 million people.\n\nGoogle Maps: http://i.imgur.com/qBKVh.png\n\nBing Maps: http://i.imgur.com/a58Pb.png\n\n(The Google one gets more fine-grained as you zoom in; the Bing one just gets emptier.)", "Reminds me of this ad, except that's EXACTLY how using Bing feels: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wlZsPTWXqts", 'Point your browser of choice at maps.google.com.  Presto, Google maps on the Apple product.', 'The maps themselves look fine, but the location searching is terrible and the interface for public transit directions is nearly incomprehensible.', 'Bing is a horrible search engine, but a passable map application. ', 'he does recommend google. He says that you can still go to their website.', 'He did mention Google.', '>While we’re improving Maps, you can try alternatives by downloading map apps from the App Store like Bing, MapQuest and Waze, or use ***Google*** or Nokia maps by going to their websites and creating an icon on your home screen to their web app.', "Google doesn't have an actual maps app so it makes sense. For those who haven't tried mapquest you should I really like it.", "The funny thing is that google has a maps app awaiting approval.   With stuff like this, I don't see how they're going to justify rejecting it.\n\nEdit:   I might have been misinformed about this.  It looks like the official rumor is that google is scrambling to build a native app.  http://mobile.theverge.com/2012/9/25/3407614/apple-over-a-year-left-on-google-maps-contract-google-maps-ios-app", "No shit and I'm not upgrading. I *fucking* *love* street view and use it all the time (real-estate research, etc).\n\nConflicted of course because I'd love to buy the new phone. Anyone know the feasability of downgrading the OS on a new iPhone 5?", "You had the foresight. Unfortunately you can't downgrade so that choice was taken away from many.", "Exactly.  I ain't upgrading. . . and when my phone dies, I'm off to Android-land.", "The typical user doesn't follow tech blogs and just updates when prompted to.", "You're not the rule. [60% of iPhone and 40% of iPads upgraded to iOS 6 in one week](http://techcrunch.com/2012/09/28/ios-6-adoption-at-just-over-one-week-60-for-iphone-and-41-for-ipad/)\n\nThat's not saying that's a good thing, I'm just pointing out that it's not a tactic that many users are taking.", "But you can choose a different default browser in windows.  With an iPhone you can't change the default maps (or browser) without jailbreaking the phone.", "I don't think he was pointing to that as evidence that it was better than the competitors, just that it has a large user base that will allow it to quickly get better than it currently is.", "He's obviously not stating that figure to pretend that people are loving the app, but rather to inform you that the app will improve steadily with that many users.", "I see your point but IE is not a good example anymore. I love IE9. Use it way more than Chrome. Especially love the fact that with a single click it's configured to prevent Google spying on me.", "> Depends on how much you depend on maps. Apple's maps aren't awful, just lacking Google's detail and accuracy, which isn't surprising.\n\nConsidering accuracy is by far the most important attribute of a map, this is pretty awful. ", ">Apple's maps aren't awful, just lacking Google's detail and accuracy, which isn't surprising.\n\nAccuracy is the most important aspect of a map. If a map isn't accurate then it's useless.", "Does apple's maps app incorporate bus schedules? I use that feature frequently and I'm worried about upgrading.", "Given google's streetcars are worldwide, 7000 doesn't sound like too much of a stretch. A team in every country would be necessary.", "He would have said: you're just holding it wrong.", "That's what makes me nervous. Apple is supposed to be a tower of confidence. Remember the antenna thing with the iPhone 4? That was a much bigger problem, and it took over a month to get him on stage, and even then, he still stuck to his guns pretty hard.", 'Its a feature not a bug.', "Well, of course not, if he hadn't have let it get released in this condition.", "He has penned many of them on apple's site, just like cook did with this one.", "He would've held a press conference just to show how other map solutions have problems giving you driving directions from Apple HQ in Cupertino, CA to the Bikini Atoll.", 'This. So true.', "I'm no fan of Steve Jobs, but I certainly agree that he was a perfectionist which served his product base well. I can't believe that he would have released a showpiece like a mobile phone's mapping in a state that would've forced him to apologize. \n\nI've always wondered if the antenna thing was a result of a) awesome coverage where he lived and worked, which compensated, b) he always used headsets, or both. ", 'I think it is safe to say that Jobs would of never allowed this to be released. If apple does anything right it is the release to market, nothing is half way there. It is comparable but if they do something it works and then they add more to it later.\n\nApple maps is a complete joke at this point.', "I don't see Jobs ever allowing the release of such a half baked app that was so vital to the user experience. \n\nApple excels at design but Google is still the king of services.", "Each to their own.  Personally, despite all these issues I still have no good reason to switch from Apple to Android.  I'm willing to give Apple's maps a shot for a while and see how they improve.  I am a fan of competition so I'd love to see Apple's maps improve to the point where they can be competitive with Google's.\n\nI do worry for the future of Apple though.  If these issues are signs of what's to come then I'm pretty sure Google will be eating Apple's lunch soon.", "Well, to be fair, they can afford a few more missteps, they are still crazy with cash.\n\nI hope it's transitional as well.  Apple has been killing it for years now, they just make the best stuff (in my opinion).  I'm no fanboy though so I'll switch at the drop of a hat if Apple drops the ball or someone else makes something that I find to be better.", "Sadly the innovation and drive behind Apple's success was primarily due to Steve. It's why he took back head of the company years ago to right it in the first place. As soon as he left the company started acting like it did before. Jobs was a visionary but was never very good at getting his companies culture to internally embody his drive and desire for perfection. \n\nLet's not forget, a bean counter was left in charge of the company. That normally does not bode well for high quality products. ", ">Why everyone is acting like Google is so saintly in this situation is beyond me.\n\nThe issue is that Apple maps app isn't up to scratch. Google doesn't enter that picture.\n\nWhat are you talking about!?", 'It was, but Google wanted more branding or integration with Google Latitude, neither of which Apple would allow.\n\n[More here](http://apple.slashdot.org/story/12/09/27/1737202/why-apple-replaced-ios-maps)', 'Of course it was an option, just not an agreed upon option. Google wanted in-app branding and integration of Google Latitude. I have no doubt that if Apple, the richest company in the US, could have worked something out with Google if they had fronted enough cash and concessions.\n\nhttp://www.neowin.net/news/apple-ditched-google-maps-over-voice-guided-directions\n\nI have no idea if such a deal would have been a good move for Apple, though.', '"And stop suing our customers"', "Odd. If anything, I'd expect Apple's maps to perform best in the US before even starting to get my hopes up about anywhere else. ", 'Google has worse maps for China than Apple? Source?', 'It would never have been released in the first place. The guy was a bit of a perfectionist.', 'And they would have dutifully, nay eagerly, fucked off.', "That's like saying if I stand up I'm closer to the sun.", "Heh, yeah, but it was the last option.  Google maps is superior to all the other options he listed, it should've been first.", "Oh, you're right. I read the description but not the full quote.", '>so saying nothing would again be the wrong move imo.\n\nThat\'s where you don\'t understand marketing. Apple\'s brand image is based on design perfection, something Jobs worked very hard to create. They\'ve created an image so strong that under brain scanning with images of apple products apple fans have an identical response to the religious, it is in fact the religious section of the brain that their brand successfully tapped into.\n\nIf you look at Jobs\' reaction to problems Apple saw, such as the antenna, it was an entire month before he even addressed the problem (and was reportedly furious at it not being discovered prior to launch). When he addressed it he still didn\'t acknowledge it as a problem but instead claimed people were holding it wrong.\n\nIn admitting to faults Apple lose their shine, they lose the "we create perfect design" part of their business and in absolutely everything they do it is design and image that is the highest agenda and selling point. If they lose that they become like every other company, a company making products that may or may not have some issues here or there. A competing company with products that attempt to compete. They lose fanaticism from people that view them as perfect and everything they do as perfect.\n\nEssentially this is indicative of Apple slipping in it\'s methods, this is not how Jobs would have handled the situation in any way whatsoever. This is how any company would handle the situation, Apple doesn\'t just want to be any company though, they can\'t just be any company, their entire brand is built around not just being like anyone else.', "I thought most of Apple's map data was from OSM. Why wouldn't it be? Isn't it free?", 'Apple Maps use OSM for data. ', "This line of commercials fills me with so much rage.  Your product sucks?  No problem, just invent a deficiency with your competition, then say your product doesn't have it!  I swear, like it came outta a god damn Dilbert comic....", "Remember you have to allow it your current location every single time? And it's much slower in Safari? Yeah, that. ", "I like the bird's eye shots (you get four angles).", 'Why do you say this? I have been quite impressed, along with many others.', 'Bing is actually not that bad, you must not have tried it in the last 6 months.', "Actually, in some ways superior to Google Maps. It doesn't estimate the numerical address locations (building number) for most residences like Google does, but instead plots them accurately based on real data. Google uses a block's starting building number and ending number and then essentially divides the intermediate space based on set building sizes. Since every building isn't the same size, this is wrong. I've been had by this shortcoming many times, where Google has the address a block or two away from where it actually is. What I do now is look it up on Google Maps and confirm the correct location on Bing.\n\nAlso, Bing has aerial 45 degree views for a lot of places. That is very useful. Google has it for almost no where. ", "Those shares were sold a long time ago if I'm not mistaken.", "If you switched to android you'll get google maps + a whole bunch of features that aren't on iOS5 maps.", "You can only downgrade a device to an earlier version if the device is supported by that version of iOS. It's a very involved process, though, and if you upgraded without taking precautions, you might not be able to downgrade at all.\n\nHowever, since Apple never released an iOS 5 version that supports the new iPhone (and is never going to release one), it's pretty much impossible to install iOS 5 on the new iPhone.", "I just sent back a brand spanking new iPhone 5 mostly as i use maps and public transport to different places daily. Even the improvements which were significant just weren't worth the cost and this is after having an iPhone 4 since launch. I'm coveting my friends galaxy s3 now!\n\nEdit - word", 'Either buy an Android phone or wait for Google to release a maps App for the iOS App Store.', "You'll love [this](http://pogue.blogs.nytimes.com/2012/09/27/what-makes-googles-maps-so-good/?hp). ", "I'm sure Google are programming like there's no tomorrow for an iOS 6 version of the Maps app. Just wait a bit.", "Just jailbreak ios6, I'm sure there'll be a Google app available for it soon enough.", "That and the email app are probably my two biggest gripes with iOS. They need to give users who know what they're doing an option to remove the mittens, I think.", 'More intangible data for us, then!', "That... I had no idea.  That's fucking ridiculous.", "Google maps aren't accurate to the inch yet somehow they still get you where you're going. The point being that accuracy is only one aspect of a map's ability to perform its function.  One map can be more accurate than another yet both still perform the same function adequately.\n\nApple maps is awful for certain things, fine for others.  Google maps is awful for certain things, fine for others.  I'd rather be using Apple's turn by turn than Google maps if I was driving in a car for instance.\n\n\n", 'The accuracy of a map is not a binary quantity.', "Accuracy isn't the most important thing about maps.   If someone asks me directions to the airport and I hand-draw some lines and label them with highway names it wouldn't be very accurate but it would work;  you'd get to the airport if you followed it. \n\nIt isn't like a mapping app is either 100% accurate it completely useless.  By that standard Google maps is also useless since they are not 100% exact either.\n\nGoogle maps are more accurate so they are better.  That doesn't mean the Apple app is useless or even completely sucks, it's just not as good. \n\nGoogle maps has flaws too.  It completely sucks for turn by turn instructions while driving.   \n\n\n", 'As far as I know it does not.', "Nope, but you can still use google maps for this via their mobile web page, which actually is very app-like in function/appearance.  Or find another app to do it until Apple gets theirs working.\n\nOr, if you don't need to upgrade iOS, stay with what you got.", "Yeah, I wasn't doubting, just marveling at the commitment and what it will take if Apple wants to catch up.", '"If Apple Maps can\'t find it, it\'s not somewhere you need to go."', '>  he still stuck to his guns pretty hard.\n\nYes, it was called "you\'re-holding-it-wrong-gate".\n', 'I believe it was because all the beta testing was done in secrecy and thus the phones were enshrouded in cases, bumpers, etc. All of which alleviated the problem.\n', 'Or he actually used to hold phones the way he demonstrated "you\'re holding it wrong", thus never personally seeing the problem during his usage.', 'WOULD HAVE', 'How the antenna issue doing the release to market right?\n\nYou are believing what you want to.', "Apple is only loaded with cash now because people are still buying their products. Once the innovation stops, so will the cash. \n\nNever once had Apple ever done a stock dividend before under Jobs. They could've used the extra cash to invest in R&D or something.", "Nobody on earth looks at Apple Maps in a vacuum without considering Google Maps, so I don't know why I would.", "Ugh. That's sad if true, because integrating Google Latitude would be a powerful feature and they put it as if this was actually an option if they didn't want increased Google branding in the app. Google Maps with Latitude and turn-by-turn navigation with fairly little branding => Apple says no. Well, you can't say Google wasn't forthcoming. That would have been a huge lift for iOS 6, and remember: with none of the disadvantages. Transit support would have remained intact, street view too, and accurate maps as well.\n\nYes yes, Apple want to control their destiny, but why couldn't they have agreed to this deal _meanwhile_ releasing Apple Maps in the App Store and allowing it to mature? As they do with numerous other products? Not everything big Apple does is included with iOS. Because they want the results from their users dogfooding the maps? Sounds sinister if true...", 'Sounds like both companies thought they had the bargaining power...sounds like google actually did.', '> *Google has worse maps for China than Apple? Source?*\n\nThis guy has been featuring comparison shots in his blog:\n\nhttp://anthonydrendel.com/\n\nQuote: **"As someone who lives in China and has to find my way around, the superiority of iOS 6 Maps is clear.**  *In my experience, the new version of Maps zooms in much further, shows more points of interest, clearly labels banks and cellphone shops (China Mobile, China Unicom, and China Telecom), and gives the locations of ATMs and public restrooms (my original iPad running iOS 5 with Google-powered Maps doesn\'t show either of those things). The killer feature, though, is that iOS 6 Maps shows both English names and Chinese characters for everything, whereas Google-powered Maps only shows the English translation (on iOS devices whose language is English). This is killer. English translations are almost useless in China because—guess what—Chinese people don\'t speak English. For those of us who can read (at least some) Chinese, this feature is even more important. We can ask for places by name instead of just pointing at its location on a map. [...] Nevertheless, looking at Google-powered Maps and iOS 6 Maps side-by-side, I would choose iOS 6 Maps every time."*\n\nThere\'s also an [article in the Bangkok Post](http://www.bangkokpost.com/tech/gadget/314283/apple-maps-better-than-google-in-china): *"when Google Maps is compared with Apple Maps, Apple\'s app provides more detail, more accuracy and, most importantly, it labels shops, restaurants and streets in both English and in Chinese characters. What\'s more, this accuracy and detail isn\'t confined to major cities and industrial zones. [...] Apple has had to develop what many think is a standalone version of its app, specifically for this market, and although initial reports claim it is much better than Google\'s offering, it still faces serious competition from apps provided by domestic competitors such as Huawei.\n"*\n\n\n', 'Uhm, mobileme?', "...Not really at all. It's saying developers are working on it and the app will improve. That's about it. Any stupid way you wish to interpret it is fine, but the facts are pretty clear.\n\nAlso, I think we've spotted another person who has little to no actual experience with the Mapping app come to share their ridiculously over the top and frankly incorrect metaphors. If you had actually used it for any real length of time, your metaphor wouldn't be the distance between the sun and the earth.", "But Apple maps is much bigger problem than antenna-gate. Antenna gate was solved by giving away free bumpers to those who were concerned. \n\nApple Maps is a basically a 'flaw' that can't be solved any time soon. It's taken Google years to map out the world and drive around the world's streets but that's what Apple are up against. So the problem isn't going to go away.\n\nApple maps risks becoming another mobile me or ping and i'm glad Apple have flagged it themselves as a poor product rather than try to palm it off to us users as something we know it isn't a good product.\n\nApple is a religion of which i'm a part of but so too are lots of other businesses... Google, Facebook, Football Clubs... the people who hold influence over other people are not blindly following Apple... tech journalists, neutral tech enthusiasts and a hefty share of Apple users know a bad product when they see it and will call a spade a spade regardless of who that product is from. I own a bunch of Apple products including the iPhone 5 but would drop them like a hot potato if something better came along - i respect people who build good tech shit and i respect people who are honest when they mess up. \n\nApple messed up and admitting that was the right thing to do (morally). Now they have to do the hard part and essentially rebuild and rebrand Apple Maps as the revolutionary product it was supposed to be. \n\nBottom line is if Apple keep building great stuff, they'll keep selling it. If competitors come up with something better, people will jump ship. Maybe not immediately, but it'll happen.\n", "Sadly, you are very correct. I find it sad that people can be... Well, *manipulated* to that extent. It's funny, the way you put it, one could say that Apple created first Consumer electronics church ;-).", "It's free, but their license mandates that any changes and improvements on OSM data has to be submitted back to the OSM database. I can see why Apple would want their own database to be top notch, without also having to make substantial improvements to a competitor's database along the way.", 'tomtom', 'If only! OSM is *much* better in my area than the shitty maps they got from TomTom.', 'No, it uses TomTom.\n\niPhoto uses OSM for geotagging, apparently. But Apple Maps uses TomTom.', 'Same with google, select "45" in the "satellite" pop-up, rotate the little "N" at the top of the compass in the zoom bar.', "I was blown away by my gf's SGS II, I'm getting a SGS III whenever I get around to it.", 'Cool.  And I have to learn a new interface, repurchase a bunch of apps, move my data, etc.', "To all the folks saying just upgrade to Android, let me say every time I've handled a friend's Android, I was annoyed beyond belief. Last I tried you couldn't even pinch zoom in and out *while* panning at the same time in maps. Not sure if this was due to patents or something, but it felt very inferior to Apple. \n\nEqually frustrating was this quirk in the GUI: whenever it would present a text box for you to type something, the cursor would already be in the text box, but no keyboard would be presented. After staring forever, I discovered you had to click in the text box to reveal a keyboard. This went against intuition since focus already appears to be owned by the text field (due to the presence of the cursor). \n\n ", 'I really tried to like android but it is shitty compared to ios5 and before. Maybe it will appear better after ios6. Eh, who am I kidding. I still prefer iOS. ', "If you get an S3 get the international one. The American one is so gimped that it's like 50% of the iPhone5 in a number of benchmarks. The international one is strong as fuck though. ", 'What do you mean? How does that give us intangible data?', "But it's Apple and they make everything great....\n\n/sarcasm ", "In terms of reliability, it kind of is. If you're using a map that isn't 99.9% accurate, then it you can't trust it at any given time (sometimes when you really need it).", "Well I expect a map application to be far better than a hastily drawn map. \n\nBut regardless, Apple replaced the map app on its mobile OS with a proprietary one that is clearly inferior. It probably wouldn't have been that big of a deal but the fact that they removed access to the Google Maps app made it really suck.", "> If someone asks me directions to the airport and I hand-draw some lines and label them with highway names it wouldn't be very accurate but it would work\n\nNo, if you hand drew the lines and labeled them, and the labels were correct, and those roads indeed led to the airport, then that's an accurate map to the airport. If you label a couple of roads incorrectly, and also are leading me to [Airfield Park](http://news.yahoo.com/blogs/technology-blog/apple-maps-app-under-serious-fire-jeopardizing-public-214021909.html), then it's an inaccurate map.", 'FUCK. Does maps.google.com load perfectly fine if you just go to the URL?', "Haha, to be fair, I didn't say he wasn't a dick about it.", 'Thanks.  Now I understand what he was trying to say.', "He didn't say sorry, Jobs said you were dumb and holding it wrong and therefore doesn't see it as a halfway thing.", "It's the difference between a bug and a planned feature.  Bugs can always slip through, but people aren't complaining about maps being buggy; they're complaining simply about how it's designed.  That's something that someone like Jobs would most definitely closely scrutinize, whereas he could easily miss a random hardware bug like the antenna issue.", "When Apple's software is not up to scratch, that has nothing to do with Google. Apple blew it. Alone. Apple failed to deliver a product comparable to other on the market. Should Google offer a shoulder to cry to Apple? Should Google now put some bugs into it's own product to make Apple feel better or something? What do you want from Google here? It's not being saintly, it's not being *anything*.", 'Apple basically has their own Latitude, don\'t they? "Find my Friends" or something.\n\nI don\'t think it is integrated into the maps application, but they normally don\'t like competitors doing what they\'ve done, much less requiring a third party solution to be integrated into their product.', 'Google Latitude is pretty sucky.  The ios app is a major battery drainer.b  Also, the service is pretty lame.', 'If Steve was still alive he would have made Google cave somehow.  He was good that way.', 'MobileMe was definitely not perfect, but Jobs primarily excelled with aesthetics. A primary feature like maps would never have been released with significant graphical problems. ', "He was supposedly told mobileme was ready, not his fault. When it didn't work as expected he chewed out the team responsible", "I travel extensively for a living. I've had every GPS and tried every mapping software I could find. Google maps the is the best with no close second.\n\n\nWhen in a new area I uses google maps on my phone to find me the area code of the address I'm looking for, because they are the only thing the other two (three?) large map conglomerates can get right. I then enter all that into my in car GPS because otherwise it won't find what I'm looking way too often. There are no other companies, and no other compendiums of this mapping information. All apple did was use TomTom's maps. TomTom has the best maps and have the best integration after google (It is what I used when driving), but they are not near them at all.\n\n\nI use the exact maps that are used in this app every day. There are so it would take 1000 hours per town just to fix them. Google used special visual algorithms to automatically generate the maps, and they have *their own satellite* that is constantly getting more information or getting better observations, sometimes just to get sharper data for the algorithms to parse. That has been going on for a decade. All the other companies rely on governments reporting the locations of the roads to them.", "It's a shame. If OSM were used, Apple would embrace making a product better for all, including theirselves.", 'Not sure why you were downvoted.  Apple got its mapping data in part from Tom Tom, including roads and driving directions.', "Maps use both. Source: http://gspa21.ls.apple.com/html/attribution.html\n\nI'm not sure why I'm downvoted for facts. ", "Yes, but didn't google just recently add that? I noticed it about a week ago.", 'Did you have to "learn" the iPhone interface? All 3 smartphone platforms (including WP) are pretty intuitive after about 5 minutes.', "Better sooner than later though. Innovation on iOS has stagnated, and in this case, it's taken a huge step back. ", "Not hating on iPhone,  but what you'll save on the price difference will more then enough to repurchase apps.", "A ton of apps you've got to pay for on ios are free on android.  \n\nIn fact I've only paid for 2-3 apps and they're not really that necessary to every day phone usage.  ", "I've had a Optimus V for the last couple years that I paid $50 for and I have always been able to pinch zoom in maps. When the hell was the last time you used a droid device? ", 'Were you an alpha tester of Android 0.6? Do an AMA!!', "On the other hand, apple doesn't have a hardware back button like my droid x (and every android phone) so if your app freezes or decides to do some stupid shit with it, you're stuck.  Meanwhile I can go from gmail to browser to look up an address and then to maps to find it and get back with three clicks.  I also don't have to install itunes and authorize my phone or use a workaround if I want to add a song from a friends computer.  I also have every feature apple adds to their phones about 6 months in advance.  ", 'Yeah im based in the UK so getting the non usa one is easy, I think the LTE one here has a quad core chip in it (USA one is dual, but vanilla is quad)', "I meant that iOS isn't a thing you can grab is all!", "Here's an idea...don't buy it if it's that much of an issue for you...", "If it was Microsoft they would have gone after them for anti-trust reasons.\n\nI still don't get why MS was shit on for that while other companies get a pass.", "The biggest problem I have now is that if I search for an address in safari using google, get the answer, and then click the link I am no longer bounced to the map app but just still in google's mobile web page.\n\nThat integration is gone and I don't see it coming back unless Apple hacks web links somehow.\n\n", "99.9%?  Are you sure it's not 99.8%?\n\nThe pointing being of course is that there is no binary cutoff between a useful and useless map.  It's ok to say one is less accurate than another while still being useful.  It could be 99.8% accurate vs 99.9%.  ", "What world map is ever that accurate? This is such bullshit, even Google wouldn't claim their mapping data is 99.9% accurate.", "Yeah, whatcha going to do?  Google started upcharging and Apple didn't want to fork over.  \n\nApple's map is inferior for now as far as data points and detail.  It is superior when it comes to some functionality like turn-by-turn instructions simply because Google doesn't offer that.", "That's one definition of what accuracy means when talking about mapping.  It's not the only way to talk about accuracy and maps.", "One token incident at launch is enough to condemn an entire world mapping system?\n\nI get the feeling those that harp on about this have barely actually used the new Mapping application. I've been using it for 3 months, since iOS 5 Beta 1. It's not as robust as Google Maps in terms of interpreting searches, besides that my experience has been pretty much the same, except it also now has turn-by-turn and 3d flyover options.", "Yup - it's a mobile-specific version. Even has a handy-dandy little popup to add a shortcut to your home screen, complete with a Google maps-specific icon. I've been using the mobile web version for a while even before upgrading to ios6 because it included bike directions, which the app did not. ", "It does, and it's pretty decent for public transit directions (I rely on it in San Francisco and the Bay Area), but the mobile website still has some problems that the old iOS Google Maps app did not. The biggest problem is that, when you turn your phone off then back on a few minutes later, Safari will often try to reload the page. If you no longer have reception (perhaps because you've gone into a BART tunnel), the page won't load, and you will have lost your directions. I found myself taking screenshots of the Safari page so I would have the trip overview even without reception.", "The maps are buggy, according to an article I've seen. There have been reports of locations being places in the wrong spot (like a UK village apparently being in the ocean according to the map search) and others.", "> What do you want from Google here?\n\nNothing. I'm just saying Google is playing hardball in negotiations too. It's in their best interests to be the primary mapping application on the iPhone as the revenue streams demonstrate, and they talked themselves right out of the game.\n\nI'm just trying to dispel the image of Google as this quiet, humble partner just going with the flow. Google pushed, and Apple pushed back harder than they had expected. That's what happened. Apple didn't just take their ball and go home unprovoked.\n\nIf that's not the image you had, then I'm not talking to you.", 'I\'m pretty sure Tim Cook was supposedly told "maps" was ready.\n\nJobs would have fucked this one up just the same.\n\nMobile me was shit because .mac was shit, and it was initially run by the same team.  Jobs had years of unreliability of .mac to look at to see how mobile me would suck but he missed it.', "Sounds like the least hands on CEO ever. He didn't bother to check it out himself? LOL.", "That's a completely idiotic statement. You contradicted yourself in successive comments. First you say that a half-baked product wouldn't get thru Steve Jobs (assuming due to his obsessive perfectionist nature) and then you say MobileMe got through because someone 'told' him it was ready. That doesn't sound very perfectionist at all.\n\nI love(d) Steve Jobs as much as the next guy but it's shit like this that gives Apple fans a bad name.", "Interesting, it doesn't say what they actually use from OSM. 5 minutes of research nets quite a few claims that they use an awful lot of OSM data. But the minor attribution on that page suggests otherwise.", 'Not sure when. Bing definitely had it first.', 'I\'ve supported Windows, Android, Blackberry and iPhones for years.\n\nIt takes more than 5 minutes to learn where things are, particularly settings, setting up app folders, etc.  Hell.. I\'m still forgetting where some of my apps are on my iPhone even though I haven\'t modified it in months.  Couple that with android is open source, so each company has its own implementation, naming, etc.  Hell, I had a Notion Ink Adam slate PC until I dropped it in an airport.\n\nLook.  This whole, "___ rules and _____ blows" shit has to stop.  Because its fucking retarded.  I\'ve been having an argument with one of my friends this last week who keeps going on and on about how the iPhone 5 sucks.  Isn\'t worth it, blah blah blah.  Lets just fucking stop.\n\nI like the iOS interface.  It is intuitive.  I know it.  I like it.  It allows me the right level of customization to what I want on my phone.  Staying with the iPhone and iOS allows me to keep my apps, keep settings, contacts, etc.  It makes for a seamless transition and I like that as well.\n\nI can go into detail about the various issues with about all 3 OSes, but I don\'t want to bore anyone more than I already have.\n\nNote: this rant is mostly due to the aggravation of dealing with my friend than your particular point.', '> Innovation on iOS has stagnated\n\nRight, because launching a world mapping system is an indicator of stagnation within the OS. Only Android fans could see Apple breaking away from Google to do their own thing and call it "stagnant innovation".', "No.  No it hasn't.  Its an operating system, just like Android and Windows Phone.  It is a very popular OS, so there are plenty of people developing to it.", 'What price difference? Here in Canada any decent Android device is as expensive or more expensive than the iPhone 5 subsidized.', "As shinrat said, what price difference?\n\nThats the other thing too about android phones.  There are TOO MANY of them, each running different versions, different hardware and having different upgradability.  Know what I get with the iPhone?  I get stability.  I know that my iPhone is a specific set of hardware, and I know that I don't have to find out if my manufacturer or software version are compatible.  I know it is.", 'Not pinch zoom, but rather panning *while* pinch zooming. If that was added, it must have been recently(ish).', '> If it was Microsoft they would have gone after them for anti-trust reasons.\n\nNo they wouldn\'t. Microsoft isn\'t closely watched because "their Microsoft" it\'s because at one point almost every computerized device on the planet was running a variant of Windows.\n\nIn reality, Microsoft does the same thing right now. Bing Maps is the pack-in, default, unchangeable mapping application for WP7. However nobody has anything close to a monopoly in mobile computing, so simply including those applications and forcing users to use them by making them default isn\'t actionable in and of itself.\n\nNow if iOS ran on 95% of phones in the market, was also an embedded OS, ran on everything from ATMs to billboards, and had a competitor variant in every market you could name, then maybe the government would have a case against Apple.\n\nHowever, that will never happen.', 'Because while extremely profitable, Apple is no where close to a monopoly status like Microsoft is. ', "That's definitely something I miss. Maybe if Safari could start to recognize addresses? ", "Google Maps also isn't an inferior replacement of another app.", "One token incident obviously doesn't mean much, since presumably all mapping systems have at least one error. The problem is with how easy it is to find errors in Apple's maps, compared to with Google Maps.\n\nTo be fair, I'm much less concerned about POI errors than with the lack of public transit directions. I relied on Google Maps on iOS 5 probably every other day, and I have little use for turn by turn directions. Even if Apple's POI database was great, I would condemn Apple maps for sacrificing public transit directions for turn by turn directions.", 'Oh wow. Google knows how to play ball.', 'This is all fine, but has nothing to do with Apple not coming up to scratch with their own mapping app. Apple\'s fault alone. Apple blew it.\n\nGoogle is not "saintly", nor is Google is *anything* with regard to Apple\'s failure to make a product that matches that of the competition.', 'That was like a "heisenbug" which affected only some users and could only be observed at scale, when tons of users are active. Can\'t really simulate that stuff in a lab', "MobileMe is a back end service, apple maps is a front end up. How the heck can anybody 'see' a backend and stress test it? Very easy to do it for a maps app. Therefore, it's not his fault that mobileme was buggy. ", ">Hell.. I'm still forgetting where some of my apps are on my iPhone even though I haven't modified it in months.\n\n>I like the iOS interface. It is intuitive. I know it.\n\nDon't sound like it...\n", 'Would you rather call it "reverse, delayed innovation?\n\nApple should come out with their own data protocol and phone carrier tones too.  Why reinvent one wheel when you can reinvent all of them?', 'Samsung S3 is already $0 on Telus with 3 year contract.', "I'm sorry to hear that, I bought my galaxy S2 for 400 chf. ", "Right, it's a bad thing to have options... lol.\n\nJail. I know when I'm going to bed. I know when I'm getting up. I know that I am going to have three meals a day. I will always have running water, and I never have to worry about paying any sort of bills. I get stability. These people that live on the outside with jobs... and so many jobs to choose from, how do you know which job is right? And places to live... so many places to choose from, which place is right? No thanks, it's jail for me.", 'In no universe is Microsoft a monopoly and in no universe are you unable to use a different browser than what they bundle with their OS.', "But what if this 'utter shit' is exectly what I want?  Should i go hate myself for not being as cool and savvy as mik3?", "> I would condemn Apple maps for sacrificing public transit directions for turn by turn directions.\n\nFeeding to The Transit App from Maps isn't that bad in practice. 3rd parties have real-time transit schedules, instead of the fixed schedule in the old iOS mapping app. You usually end up with more accurate and comprehensive results than you did using the built-in Transit options.\n\nAlso, turn by turn is pretty great. I don't do much driving but it's been completely accurate and useful every time I've used them.", 'You\'re an idiot.\n\nJust because I\'ve forgotten if I put the app "Chrome" under Apps or Tech is because the interface isn\'t intuitive.  Or Fruit Ninja in Games or More Games.\n\nClearly thats the interface.  Shit.  Thank you for opening my eyes.  Fucking hell people.  Get off the iOS hate train.', '> Would you rather call it "reverse, delayed innovation?\n\nNo, I\'ll just call it what it is. Innovation. You can make up whatever phrase makes you feel better about it if you\'d like.\n\n> Why reinvent one wheel when you can reinvent all of them?\n\nBecause one of them is entirely controlled by a single corporation that doesn\'t like them and charges them massive access fees as well as demanding unprecedented access to user data. There are no such restrictions on the "data protocol" or "phone carrier tones".\n\nBut of course you knew that full well, it just doesn\'t jive well with your "fuck Apple those idiots" motif.', 'Tone down the prick factor.', "And all you have to do is switch to the worst provider. I'll pass.", 'So you paid more than I did for my iPhone 5 for a year old phone? It was $386CAD to end my old contract early and upgrade to the iPhone 5, compared to the $420CAD (at the current exchange rate) you paid for your Galaxy S2.', "That's a facile analogy.  Some people would prefer to have simplicity over usability and flexibility in their phones. Don't forget that although these are highly technical devices, they are now standard fare for most people and a lot of those people are not interested in options or even getting the most out of their phones, really. I can't count how many times I have had to tell some less technically inclined friends how to do the most simple things on their iPhone, including things like swipe down to access the notification window or double tap the home button to access running apps. I prefer to play around with my phone, but most non technical friends and family would find that annoying and confusing.\n\nPersonally, my preference is Jailbroken iPhone > Android > standard iPhone > WP > Flip phone > nothing > blackberry", 'Brilliant straw man.', '>In no universe is Microsoft a monopoly\n\nMicrosoft had perceived monopoly power and employed anticompetitive business practices in the mid-late 90\'s according to the court. Apple was actually failing and Linux was seen as too complicated for your average user.\n\n>in no universe are you unable to use a different browser than what they bundle with their OS.\n\nThat was actually an issue in the case. Windows was, according to experts in the case, not running properly when IE was removed (if you could even figure out how to remove it). Not only that, but they were "poisoning" their employment of Java for anticompetitive reasons. Beyond all of this, they were forcing smaller players (e.g. Netscape) out of the market with bundling and exclusivity deals with PC-makers.\n\nSome called it good business, but the court called it anti-competitive in violation of the Sherman Act.', "I think the Transit app is pretty horrible. I much prefer Google Maps in Safari, although it also has its problems.\n\nMy old workflow was to use iOS Google Maps (in San Francisco) to figure out which bus/train/etc. to take and where the stops were, then I would switch to PocketMUNI to get real time information. I'm sure I can and will figure out a new workflow, but for now my efficiency and confidence is much worse.", 'They will when it stops doing shitty things like hobbling one of the most used apps. Could not find a restaurant in central London last night because the data is so fucking awful. Fucking awful. ', 'So you\'re going to characterize me as an ideologue while simultaneously propping up Apple as the company attempting to bring diversity to the smartphone industry?  There are a number of lawsuits that would beg to differ.  I don\'t think it\'s unreasonable for the company to make their own maps app, but in its current state it\'s a pretty weak attempt to get Google out of their walled garden.\n\nPainting Apple as being in a defensible and victimized position because they can\'t stand the other mobile companies and fucking up after trying to sidestep one of the best map products in the industry is like something out of a Fox News talking point.\n\nBut of course you knew that -- you just had can\'t conceive that this was a retarded corporate decision and is about as "innovative" as Apple\'s other corporate and legal actions of late.\n\nTL:DR;\n>I\'ll just call it what it is. Innovation.\n\nIT AIN\'T INNOVATION WHEN SOMEONE HAS DONE IT BETTER AND ALMOST A DECADE EARLIER.', 'why?', "I really don't want to argue about such things...  Anyway I don't have a contract. My monthly spending is less than 10 franks. If I were to buy it with a contract it would have cost me anywhere between 0 to 100 francs. I'm happy that you bought a gadget that you enjoy using,  for me currently there is really no reason to buy anything new. I mean it is already too versatile to my taste. ", "> I prefer to play around with my phone, but most non technical friends and family would find that annoying and confusing.\n\nIts not even technical vs non-technical.  I'm a sysadmin and I have several dev friends who, we just don't want to tinker with our phones.  I use linux in part because I like to tinker, but there are times and devices I don't want that.  I want it to work and I don't want to fuss with it.", "It probably depends on the apps you use...\n\nMy first touch screen personal device was an iPod touch... I liked it. I jailbroke it and use siphon to connect to my asterisk box at home to make/receive calls on open wireless networks when I didn't have a cell phone. Now I have an actual cell phone running on a $50 droid with unlimited data for $35/month... and every app I used on the ipod has been replaced with either an equivalent or better app than available for the iOS. And the features available in the android market are more easily and freely available than they were in the iOS market.\n\nAnyone that can jailbreak their iPhone, can root their android and get more out of it.", "I get unlimited data on an iphone5 for $20 something a month. I paid 199 for a 3GS whatever year that came out and now paid 199 again for a phone I know will serve me well for another several years. But I'm an idiot because I buy apple?", "> I think the Transit app is pretty horrible.\n\nWhy? Are you launching it directly or feeding it from iOS Maps? I'm not a huge fan of their launch interface, but when feeding directions from iOS Maps, it's exactly like being in the maps application except with transit directions.\n\n> My old workflow was to use iOS Google Maps (in San Francisco) to figure out which bus/train/etc. to take and where the stops were, then I would switch to PocketMUNI to get real time information.\n\n...Seriously? So then your old workflow is exactly what happens in iOS 6, except iOS does the handoff for you instead of you having to manually re-enter the information.\n\n> I'm sure I can and will figure out a new workflow, but for now my efficiency and confidence is much worse.\n\nI honestly don't get it. Sounds to me like they incorporated your exact workflow.", 'The maps decision was retarded.  Its even more retarded because they admitted fault.  That is so decidedly not Apple.', "> So you're going to characterize me as an ideologue while simultaneously propping up Apple as the company attempting to bring diversity to the smartphone industry? \n\nNo doubt.\n\n> There are a number of lawsuits that would beg to differ.\n\nI beg to differ, everyone is suing everyone. Acting like their are clean hands in that situation is so ridiculous it's not even worth discussing.\n\n> Painting Apple as being in a defensible and victimized position because they can't stand the other mobile companies and fucking up after trying to sidestep one of the best map products in the industry is like something out of a Fox News talking point.\n\nGood thing I never said that then.\n\n> But of course you knew that -- you just had can't conceive that this was a retarded corporate decision\n\nYep, that seems to be the Android fanboy line right now. Breaking away from Google? FUCKING RETARDS! You keep screaming that while Apple actively dislodges itself from its most abusive partner, we'll see which strategy works.\n\n> IT AIN'T INNOVATION WHEN SOMEONE HAS DONE IT BETTER AND ALMOST A DECADE EARLIER.\n\nThat's what they said when Apple released the iPhone in the first place. I trust them to improve upon the initial release, and for it to be the right move in the long run. Just because you can't see time past your nose doesn't mean the rest of the world is that short-sighted.", "Right but here in Canada you always pay the subsidized price, even with an off contract phone. All plan prices are heavily inflated, so there is no benefit to having an off-contract phone.\n\nIt's nothing personal, I'm just attempting to dispel the pricing disparity myth. In countries with cellphone subsidies, the iPhone is the exact same price as it's high-end Android competition.\n\nIf I switched, I would lose all the money I invested in iOS and I would be paying the same price to do so. Doesn't apply everywhere, but it's a pretty safe bet across all of North America.", 'I have found there are more issues with a rooted android phone than a jailbroken iPhone (compromised stability, mainly)', 'I launch Transit from the Apple Maps directions. All or most of the data I need is there in some form, but the presentation is just awful. It\'s only just now clear to me that the A, B, and C options are different routes rather than different stops on your route. I can\'t find a text list of the directions, or anything that actually says where to get off and on. I guess they expect you to just watch the map the whole time you\'re riding, or look at the map at the beginning of your trip and write down the intersections to get on and off. There\'s also some strange and disconcerting data, like how it called the N Judah the "N Caltrain."\n\nAs for the PocketMUNI functionality, Transit is significantly worse. Setting your location is painstaking, and apparently requires searching for the address you want to center on. There is no map overview of where the stops are, much less route maps that show icons for where the buses currently are.', "A droid already has the features that you are chasing when you jailbreak the iOS. It isn't locked down like an iOS device so you don't NEED to root it, but you can if you really like customizing and tweaking like me. \n\nThe only reason I rooted my phone is because it is an older, cheaper one and I wanted to have the newer OS since it has a few better features like wifi tethering. So I have a $50 phone that I pay $35/month on unlimited data that can do everything and more than an iPhone. There was absolutely no stability problem with rooting my phone and my phone doesn't have the great specs that these newer phones have (Optimus V)... although it may depend on the phone and kernel you use... but stability and feature reviews are all available online before you attempt it.\n\nI think in the last year droid has really jumped ahead of iOS. iOS used to have a slight edge when it came to interface and stability... but that edge has become blurred as these new droids are coming out with better specs, more fluid interfaces, rock solid stability and battery life, and many more features out of the box than an iOS device. iOS no longer has anything over droid... and in my opinion is quickly becoming inferior.\n", "So contact the devs of PocketMUNI and ask them what the status of iOS 6 Transit support is. Sounds like once that's integrated, you'll be fine.\n\nI agree that Transit App needs work. That's the beauty of using 3rd parties, anyone can step up and replace them.", "I may be wrong (and hope I am) but android does not offer an integrated airplay option, which personally is a deal breaker for me, a I use it a lot with xbmc. Also, I have seen no android alternative to Bitesms. The ability to reply to an SMS or mms message without having to switch to my messaging client is a necessity for me. As I am on a dying 3GS and eligible for an upgrade, I am sincerely hoping someone can tell me I have options. I really would prefer to get a g3, but I won't give up these two features. \n", "I don't think there is anything integrated for airplay but there are a few good free apps that do the exact same thing. Like [remote for iTunes](https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=hyperfine.hftunes&feature=search_result#?t=W251bGwsMSwyLDEsImh5cGVyZmluZS5oZnR1bmVzIl0.). [iMediaShare](https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.bianor.ams&feature=search_result#?t=W251bGwsMSwxLDEsImNvbS5iaWFub3IuYW1zIl0.). [AirBubble](https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.bubblesoft.android.airbubble&feature=search_result#?t=W251bGwsMSwxLDEsImNvbS5idWJibGVzb2Z0LmFuZHJvaWQuYWlyYnViYmxlIl0.) can even send songs from phone to devices. There is an [official XBMC remote](https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=org.xbmc.android.remote&feature=search_result) app. And there are [many](https://play.google.com/store/search?q=xbmc&c=apps) other Boxee/XBMC remote apps that are good.\n\n>Also, I have seen no android alternative to Bitesms.\n\nWhat is wrong with [chompSMS](https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.p1.chompsms&feature=search_result#?t=W251bGwsMSwxLDEsImNvbS5wMS5jaG9tcHNtcyJd)? And there are [many](https://play.google.com/store/search?q=sms&c=apps) other options beside that... [SMS Popup](https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=net.everythingandroid.smspopup&feature=search_result#?t=W251bGwsMSwxLDEsIm5ldC5ldmVyeXRoaW5nYW5kcm9pZC5zbXNwb3B1cCJd). \n\nIf you want to auto-reply to SMS you can... also apps like [Tasker](https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=net.dinglisch.android.taskerm&feature=search_result) and [Llama](https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.kebab.Llama&feature=search_result#?t=W251bGwsMSwxLDEsImNvbS5rZWJhYi5MbGFtYSJd) were you can completely automate pretty much every aspect of your phone. When I step into work my phone automatically turns the ringer and wireless off, when I step out of work my phone automatically turns the ringer on... when I step into my apartment my phone automatically turns wireless on and connects to my asterisk box so all calls go out over SIP. GPS is off unless I open a map app then it turns on. When I plug in a headset, my music player automatically launches and starts playing from when it was shutdown, quits when headset disconnected. When I open certain apps like out of milk for doing grocery checklists it turns the lockscreen off so I can just quickly check off items without sliding, turns lockscreen back on when app is closed. It takes a little time to set up but once you do it is amazing.", "And that's where android falls short for me. I love so many features about it, but iOS is just so much more seamless, particularly when jailbroken. I've used tasker, and it really is awesome, but I dot want to switch apps to reply to text messages, I'd like to be able to run my messaging app overtop of any other app for a quick reply, which Bitesms does seamlessly.  I actually prefer the layout and like some of the options of many of the android SMS apps, but they all lack the functionality of quick reply. I had an htc desire z for a while and really loved many of its features, but ended up returning to my 3GS for Bitesms, AirPlay and alien blue. As soon as I did, I really missed the display of the htc, tasker, air droid and most significantly lastpass plugin for dolphin. I didn't miss the fragmentation of android, but I'm told that ice cream sandwich has cleared most of that up. ", "What is more seamless about it? ChompSMS and SMS Popup both allow for quick reply over the top of other apps... [screenshot 1](https://lh4.ggpht.com/5yuji8pgFz5jvcpQlQrbpvHSSJqo5grcW5CWLGXgL38m1-YAAm1rkgCZAZFadw1juV0) - [screenshot 2](https://lh6.ggpht.com/uAenlSlRJ3-cOmhsv-VKJR38wLbn7t299gN8WgOZhYF-B0CQjnuTvIIhxqwKUrq1EIk) And they have had this quick reply feature for at least a year and a half so I don't know why you think it doesn't exist...\n\nI mean come on man... you're willing to put in the extra effort of jailbreaking your iOS but you can't even do simple searches on the market to find an SMS solution? And then I even give you links to the solutions and you completely ignore it and say it doesn't exist? lol?!? Sounds pretty heavily biased toward iOS to me.There is absolutely nothing that iOS has over android... I've used both for the last few years and with the new phones coming out and ICS droid > iOS.\n\n AirPlay... already addressed it.\n\nalien blue... just search reddit on the market and you will get a whole list of apps better than alien blue. I use reddit news free. \n\n", "Whats more seamless? The lack of seams.  You suggest using a patchwork of apps to do what the iphone does natively (in regards to airplay)\n\nTo address your first point regarding sms, I did do searches (exhaustive searches) with the desire Z when I had it. At that time, there were no options available to do what chompsms or sms popup will do. What Bitesms already did.  I tend to not go looking for solutions to problems on devices I am not using. HTC did not release an ICS solution for the desire Z when it came out and I would have had to have rooted it to install ICS. The community at /r/android had a very good breakdown of the pros and cons of rooting and I was unwilling to accept the instability as my cell is my only phone and at the time was my sole source of internet at home. \n\nSecondly, I first looked into the android platform to address my needs from my phone. After using it, I felt it still lacked some of the functionality I was hoping for.  After playing around with a jailbroken iphone, I pulled out my old 3GS, jailbroke it and was very happy for a while. It has slowed quite a bit as of late and as such I would like to upgrade.  The problem is that I am underwhelmed with the Iphone 5 and am very impressed with the G3, so I was actually looking for a reason to switch back to android, but had some concerns.  You linked nothing originally, only suggesting apps that previously did not fulfill my expectations of an sms client.  I would suggest that my original statement of proclaiming that I had hoped I was wrong because I would like to go back demonstrates a pretty obvious lack of bias.  I have used both devices, albeit pre ICS and my experiences led me to favour iPhone. Knowing there are comparable sms apps certainly alleviates that concern, but it still doesn't support airplay natively.\n\nAs far as reddit clients go, thats a matter of opinion. However, I have used reddit is fun, bacon reader and reddit news and from my experience they are all absolutely inferior to alien blue.  \n\nI am not sure why your reply holds such a pajoritive tone, as I am simply inquiring about peoples experience with their devices.  It would seem to me from our brief exchange here that you heavily favour android and I can respect that. However, I don't know why you or anyone else would consider your opinion on these matters correct. A phone is a very personal device and as such peoples preferences are bound to vary. While there is certainly a massive contingent of apple fanboys it doesn't mean that everyone who uses an iPhone is one. \n\nI am really disinterested in a bitchy back and forth so I will simply thank you for your reply, your opinion and the screen shots. ", "> You suggest using a patchwork of apps to do what the iphone does natively (in regards to airplay)\n\nNo, I don't... I just listed so many applications to show that there are options. Any one of those apps can do what iOS does natively... and it isn't patchwork or any less fluid to the end user.\n\n>However, I have used reddit is fun, bacon reader and reddit news and from my experience they are all absolutely inferior to alien blue. \n\nIn the last six months all of those apps have gotten exponentially better. I don't think you would find them inferior any longer. When I first started using them... yeah, I'd agree that alien blue was better than all of them, but no longer.\n\n>I am really disinterested in a bitchy back and forth so I will simply thank you for your reply, your opinion and the screen shots. \n\nNo problem. I didn't mean to offend you.\n", 'It his pretty hilarious watching inept senators asking a CEO why he takes advantage of a system designed by inept senators.', "I feel he's correct on this one. He paid all he's legally required to, if Congress doesn't like it, they can change the law, but you can't be mad at someone for following it.\n", "You leave loopholes open and expect people not to use them? I mean look at Congress themselves. They live by a completely different set of rules than the average citizen due to the holes they leave open so they can't be surprised. What the company did was legal so can't really fault them. And we all know pretty much all major corporations do it.", "I personally don't think he should apologise, He is doing nothing illegal it's good business  ", 'If it is legal Apple has no obligation to fork over billions. Fix the tax code you fucking worthless congressmen.', 'Ironic, really, that in this sense Apple is a patriot. The only thing congress seems to understand is money, so I hope they dodge more taxes and are even more unrepentant for it next year. Then we may see some real change in the tax code. The only way to do it is to hit the government where it hurts, which is in its wallet. ', 'Nor should he', 'but imagine the response if we change the headline from Apple to Monsanto', 'It\'s shady and dirty as Hell, but I understand why companies will play that game. Most of us would do it as well if we could get away with it. Those companies have the coffers, the profit potential, and the lawyers to get away with it. \n\nUnfortunately, when politicians actually do close tax loopholes, it won\'t be for those corporations, but for lower- and middle-class Americans. Combine this with "We\'re going to cut government programs, and after that, we\'ll cut your taxes (but we\'ll cut a lot more "Job Creator" taxes than what you\'ll be getting)", it\'s no wonder why this happens', "It's a company,not a charity ", 'God damn it, Reddit. Can\'t you see how intellectually dishonest you\'re being? Don\'t you feel the cognitive dissonance?\n\nApple was, for a minute there, the world\'s most valuable publicly traded corporation. In other words, the *biggest company on the planet*. This is a *huge corporation*, just like WalMart, Monsanto, Halliburton, Exxon, BP, or *any other*. \n\nJust because you like their products and image, you immediately jump over to, "Well, man, they didn\'t, like, break any laws or anything." \n\nNo. But they acted in a way that showed total disregard for the society of the place they call home. Do as little as possible to acknowledge the reality of the interdependence of the people and entities around you, and you can profit more! Is that acceptable to us? In *any context*? It shouldn\'t be. Shame on us if it is.', 'I love how predictable reddit is. Since this is Apple and not Haliburton, the overall response is, "hey, their not technically breaking any laws". ', "And he shouldn't. At least Apple paid some taxes. Other companies had a zero or negative tax bill. Why aren't we using them as corporate scapegoats? Oh right, those companies make a habit of lining the pockets of those ~~doing the witchhunt~~ on the committee.\n\nI never thought I'd actually be agreeing with Rand Paul on anything. Kinda sobering.", "Please help us...\n\nIn Ireland the only policy not up for negotiation is corporate tax rate. Our government is corrupt and has nationalised bank debt to the tune of 40,000 euro per man woman and child in the country, while leaving businesses tax untouched. This deprives Ireland the the rest of the world from charging corporations a fair tax rate. \n\nPlease help us from our corrupt government, we can't vote for anyone else as all partied will all do the same. This needs to be settled by the internetional cmmunity. if we can globalise business and trade, we can globalise justice, fairness, and dignity. ", 'What Apple is doing is far less "unfair" than what many rich people do, which is just put their money off shore.\n\nApple pays Italian taxes on Italian profits. They pay French taxes on French profits. They pay German taxes on German profit. \n\nIt just so happens that every other country has a much lower corporate tax rate, because they all know that having a high corporate tax rate is just stupid, and that there\'s far better way of taxing than through corporate taxes.', "And a great deal of consumers make no apology for *not* purchasing apple products. If you are going to act like arrogant pricks then you don't get our money. It's that simple. ", "Isn't his job description to pay investors, not governments? If they don't like it, they should fix our mess of a tax system.", "And I don't apologize for my shopping strategy: I don't buy Apple products.", 'They should be using the opportunity to understand how it works so they can fix it rather than accusing him of anything. ', 'who cares about apple why not the buggest fish in the country like "exxon"', "They're not inept. Nor did they design the whole of the system. They use the holes they leave in there and then close them when light shines on them. They're very adept at using said system since they make the system. \n\n", 'It\'s pretty sickening though to see such contempt for the same country that brought in that wealth in the first place.\n\nHe\'s basically saying "We don\'t pay taxes because fuck you, America."\n\n__Edit:__  Corporations DO exist that don\'t horde immense wealth off shores and avoid paying taxes here.  So YES, it very much is a fuck you to America.', "It's more than that, he is legally required to fulfill his fiduciary responsibility to the shareholders, within the law. And that is exactly what they are doing. He could go to prison for doing things against that responsibility. ", "Yep!\n\nA company shouldn't be reprimanded or criticized for using legal means to pay less tax. If people are upset about it, change the tax laws.", "I absolutely can be upset, as these are the same people lobbying for the irresponsible laws.  You're full of shit.", "It's morally bankrupt of him to cop-out of the argument by saying the company is doing perfectly legal things and shunting responsibility to Congress. This is a Congress that they bought and paid for, aided by an executive branch that is perfectly willing to allow them to corrupt our federal elections. Your 'we get the government we deserve' quip implies some sort of godly morality. Really, it's not. These men bought our elections and you're sitting there pretending we want these loopholes to exist.", "Not only is it good business, it's the virtually the only option. Choosing not to take advantage of these tax loopholes would put them at a competitive disadvantage, because everyone else is doing so. In this case, a multi-billion dollar competitive disadvantage.", 'taxes can hardly be compared to charity.', 'i was not aware joe biden had a major stake in apple and apple was providing for the military?', 'Nah, usually it\'s "Apple did it, so it\'s perfectly fine~" "Hitler killed Jews, so Ann Coulter has every right to attack Jon Stewart!"\n ', 'In terms of taxable profits, Apple IS the biggest fish in the country.', 'I thought that Apple was the largest privately owned corporation on the planet.  How is that not the biggest fish?', "If their job is governing America, which it is, I'd say they're quite inept. ", 'High five!', '> "We don\'t pay taxes on money we aren\'t required to because we have a legal obligation to maximize profit for our shareholders and if you don\'t like it fix your tax code."\n\nFTFY.', "No, he is basically saying they do what everyone does, which is limiting their tax liability.  Do none of those senators deduct their mortgage interest from their taxes?  If they *really* want Apple to pay more, they need to write a better tax code.  The truth is, they don't really want Apple to pay more, they just want to make it look like they are doing something.  ", 'hahaha, really pal? Your government created these laws, your government is saying fuck you America.\n', "Agreed, but I question if congress is legitimately concerned here. I suspect it's all show, and the tax law won't change. ", 'Yup, time to lower corporate tax rates as the individual rates rise.', 'After working for years with corporate earnings reports, SEC filings, and things of that nature, I can assure you that nobody has gone to prison for failing to use the Irish tax loophole. ', 'Yeah, but he can borrow the money to pay his shareholders more cheaply than he can bring the cash back from overseas.', "Arguably, there is greater utility in paying slightly more than one's absolute legal minimum. Is stock price the absolute measure of the fulfillment of this duty, or is the long-term health and good public standing of a company also part of this value? Etc. ", "You say that like the citizenry has control over he tax code and it's not completely driven by big-business interests and lobbying. ", 'Let me get this straight. Corporations, seeking to improve returns, lobby congress for favors. They are successful, and in turn pay very low taxes. Congress should be very happy with the corporations. Any signs of displeasure are just public chest thumping. You as the concerned citizen are free to be upset about this, but then again, we get the govt we deserve.\n', "Morally bankrupt? Ok. But companies are typically amoral, they exist for the benefit of the shareholders. In this case that means only paying the legally required amount of taxes. You say you don't want these loopholes to exist. Maybe, but a loophole by definition is just a deduction for someone else. When I say we get what we deserve, I think that's true. While you seem to be paying attention, the entire American experience is carefully designed to stop that. It exists because its profitable. It's profitable because companies know given a choice between cheap, or moral, we sheep will flock to cheap. The thing is we all are gears in the machine, we all share guilt here. I know I do.... sent from my iPhone. ", 'Do you, personally, pay more in taxes than you legally owe?', "Tell that to the 50 million I support with food stamps, the baby down the street delivered by government healthcare I pay for and the school my non-existant kids don't go to.\n\n", 'When you pay more than you have to,it is. ', "Isn't the lobbying for and approval of tax laws that allow them to pay nothing kind of like a no-bid contract? They're both getting tons of special perks from the government at our expense. ", 'Exxon post the largest profit so i guess its how you slice it.', "Privately owned corporations don't sell stock. That would make them public.", "Their job is getting re-elected. The 90% re-election rate for incumbents proves they're doing a great job. Unless areas begin voting out their representatives who fail at making America great then they have no reason to do anything more then provide handouts for people who give them re-election funds.", ">they do what everyone does\n\nNot everyone does it, actually.  The truth is the kinds of manipulative accounting tricks that these big corporations rely on are why they get away with this shit.\n\nDoes the tax code include rules that say Apple must horde great amounts of wealth earned in this country in off shore accounts?  Of course not.\n\nLet me ask you this:  Anyone can horde any amount of wealth in an off shore account, so why don't we all do that?  Oh, because __IT'S A BIG FUCK YOU TO AMERICA.__  Only pieces of shit like Romney and his ilk do that.", 'both could be saying it.  Apple could easily do what any corporation that actually pays its taxes does.  ', ">I can assure you that nobody has gone to prison for failing to use the Irish tax loophole.\n\nHow many corporations have had their corporate officers go to jail for anything business related? I don't believe anyone was arrested when MF Global co-mingled their customer and corporate funds.", "The long standing thing is important, but you're measured on what the stock price is today, and what it's perceived to be in the future. \n\nRemember that Apple does just about all of its production outside of the US.  This requires them to spend a lot of money outside of the US.  That being the case, why would they ever need to bring this money into the US if they will eventually export it again anyway?  Why not save the trouble of taxation and have this Irish 'subsidiary' be the one that buys the parts?\n\nIf the laws allow this, and they followed the laws, then what's the issue?  If the laws do not achieve the desired intent, then the laws need to change, not the ones following them. ", "I'm not so naive that I don't get that. However with the tax codes as they are, we shouldn't pick on the company for simply following the rules. It's the fault of the government, and they are the ones responsible.", 'So your plan is to rely on these companies paying more than they need to out of the goodness of their hearts?  ', "I'm glad that we agree that they are amoral, especially since they are led by amoral humans. ", "Just checked. You are correct. I was surprised by the news that Apple was the United States' largest company. Shoulda done my own research. Damn you, NPR!", 'Sorry, I worded that wrong.  I meant to distinguish from state owned firms like Gazprom or Aramco. ', 'See my response to the other person that said this.', "I really really really wish we had a proportional representation election system instead of this 2-party First past the post garbage. The way they've gerrymandered all these districts, it's rarer and rarer that a single district will change party affiliation. They've got this thing carved up and tacked down so tight there no chance for any real democracy. It's just big business party A vs big business party B. ", "No, their job is to govern America. It's their twisted self-centered thinking that makes them think that getting re-elected is their job. ", "At least some people realize this. Those poor fools who still think that the 'machine' works for *them* are quite simply deluded. It was *never* this way, although the situation overall has been better in the 20th century.\n\nRegardless, if more people were aware of the true loyalty of their elected officials, maybe we could finally start seeing some change.\n\nAs it is, most people gladly buy into whatever daytime TV tells them to.", 'Lol, oh hi r/politics!  Nice to see you! ;)', 'That money was made outside the country, they do sell outside of the states you know , lots of stuff, and they pay tax on it in those countries.\n\nTo bring it back into the states they would have to pay 35% tax on it, so they keep it outside, Ireland, paying 2% tax a year. again this is AFTER paying tax on the earnings in the respective countries.\n\nThere pay the most corporate tax in the states 6b about 2.5% of the total.\n\nTry to read up a little more.', "apple has no obligation to the US government, why wouldn't they say fuck you if the government is trying to take their profits?\n\nwhat they are doing is not illegal", 'Go look up Enron and Worldcom.', "But they're responsible because they were lobbied to, because the lobbying system is set up that way and you need so much money for elections. So blame the lobbying. But who will change that? Who _can_ change that?", 'True. Which is the weird part, at least for me. For example google, their motto is "don\'t be evil". Or at least it was when I was in college. They do a pretty good job of not being evil, but they too pay the least amount of taxes required. I too try not to be evil, but business and competition is a bitch. ', "You didn't answer my question. \n\nGee, I wonder why. ", 'Fuck that, I want australias system and throw in mandatory voting too. I just wish people would focus on real issues like Campaign Finance reform and election system changes. Gun control, pedophiles, and abortion are all red herrings for every group that champions the causes for and against.', 'Blame us that allow candidates that act that way to get re-elected. ', 'Tell me why thats their job. If you work in a factory, putting things in boxes, is it more important you put things in boxes, or that you keep your job?', 'But higher taxes will pump more money into the machine.   Money is ca great purifier. ', 'Wtf?  So pointing out a total lack of business ethics is somehow political?\n\n', ">That money was made outside the country, they do sell outside of the states, lots of stuff, and they pay tax on it in those countries.\n\nThis is an AMERICAN COMPANY.  They wouldn't have been able to sell outside of the states if they didn't start up in them in the first place.  Some appreciation, completely dick us all over as the country goes into a recession. \n\n>To bring it back into the states they would have to pay %35 tax on it, so they keep it outside.\n\n__Nobody__ is paying the 35% tax rate.  They would probably end up paying half that.\n\n>There pay the most corporate tax in the states 6b.  Try to read up a little more.\n\nOil companies do, actually.  I think Exxon pays almost 3 times that amount of not more.  Try to read up a little.", 'No one said it was illegal, just immoral. But really, what else would you expect from any huge company like Apple? You dont get that big without lowering your standards for morality a bit in the process.', 'Enron will soon be a bad example.  Skilling is in the process of buying his way out of prison.  Lay died before serving any time (not even sure if he was convicted).', 'Honest politicians?', "So now you think the laws can be changed to make this happen?  Didn't you just call this delusional in the post above?", '>but they too pay the least amount of taxes required.\n\nUnlike you, right? ', "That's only large in terms of revenue.  I was thinking market capitalization.", 'You\'ve changed the question. It was previously "what\'s their job?" now it\'s "what\'s more important to you?". That\'s very different.\n\nWhat\'s their job? Putting things in boxes.', 'Derp, Romney and his ilk!  Go away.  ', "[Here](http://www.rushlimbaugh.com/daily/2013/05/21/high_tech_lynching_senate_attempts_to_crucify_apple)\n\nAnd they create a great deal of wealth, billions paid out to app developers that then have to pay tax. How many people do they employ? They then have to pay tax on their earrings.\n\nYou are aggressively looking for a bogeyman and Apple isn't it.\n\nSay you do something important that somebody might pay you for abroad. You do the work get paid, paying the local taxes at 25% If you want to take that money home and do up the house a little then you would have to pay tax on it again.\n\nWould you be happy to do that, I wouldn't.", 'He is chilling with tupac.', "You can't get elected if you're honest, in today's political world", "Oh because Romney was involved in politics, I'm somehow being political now by calling him a piece of shit.  Never mind that's not any kind of commentary on ideology.  Should I throw in some democrats I find to be pieces of shit too?  You know, to make it so sensitive people like you don't get mad?  \n\nDerp indeed.  Derp indubitably so.  ", "Apple uses a variety of offshore structures and arrangements to shift billions of dollars from the United States to Ireland.  The U.S. corporate tax rate is 35%, while Apple said it has negotiated a special corporate tax rate in Ireland of less than 2%.  Apple has found the secret to not paying taxes. You just avoid taxes by not declaring a tax residency for the company that oversees the entirety of your international income. \n\nApple Operations International (AOI) is the company's primary offshore holding company. It was registered in Cork, Ireland in 1980, and its purpose is to serve as a cash consolidator for most of Apple's offshore affiliates. It receives dividends from those affiliates and makes contributions as needed.\n\n- Apple owns 100% of AOI either directly or through controlled foreign corporations. \n\n- AOI owns several subsidiaries, including Apple Operations Europe, Apple Distribution International, and Apple Singapore.\n\n- AOI has no physical presence and has not had any employees for 33 years. It has 2 directors and 1 officer, all Apple Inc. brass. One is Irish, two live in California. \n\n- 32 of 33 AOI board meetings were held in Cupertino rather than Cork. \n\n- Shockingly, AOI doesn't pay taxes. Anywhere. The holding company had a net income of $30 billion from 2009 to 2012, but has not declared tax residency in any jurisdiction. \n\n- AOI's income made up 30% of Apple's total world profits from 2009- 2011.\n\n\nApple explained that, although AOI has been incorporated in Ireland since 1980, it has not declared a tax residency in Ireland or any other country and so has not paid any corporate income tax to any national government in the past 5 years. \n\nApple Sales International (ASI) is a second Irish affiliate. It is the repository for all of Apple's offshore intellectual property rights. \n\n- ASI buys Apple's finished products from contracted manufacturers in China — think Foxconn — and resells them at a major markup to other Apple affiliates in Europe, the Middle East, Africa, India and the Pacific.\n\n- Although ASI is an Irish incorporated entity and the purchaser of the goods, only a small percentage of Apple’s manufactured products ever entered Ireland. \n\nUpon arrival, the products were resold by ASI to the Apple distribution affiliate that took ownership of the goods. \n- Before 2012, ASI had no employees despite $38 billion in income over three years.\n\n__Apple's cost sharing arrangement facilitated the shift of $74 billion in worldwide profits away from the United States from 2009 to 2012.__\n\n- ASI's parent company is Apple Operations Europe Inc. Together they own the intellectual property rights to Apple goods sold offshore.\n\n- Like AOI, ASI claims to be a tax resident of nowhere. It's not obligated to pay taxes to any nation. \n\n- Apple Sales International pays very, very little in global taxes.\n\nTL;DR:  What Apple is getting away with is the result of genius accounting tricks that most people, hell even most companies, aren't able to manage.  Fuck them and any other corporation that's doing this bullshit.  You know its wrong.\n\nOh, and the next time you link to RUSH FUCKING LIMBAUGH for your information, go to the doctor and get your God damn brain examined.", 'I guess I was confused when the guy above proposed changing the tax laws to do just what you said, then you called him delusional, and then you said we need to fix the laws to me after I suggested that you thought it would work without changing the laws.  \n\nSo you think the tax laws should be changed, but you also believe that it will never happen, or at least until we change the laws that control how politicians get their funding.  If you think that tax law change is insurmountable, what makes you think that campaign finance reform will be any more tenable? ', 'Lol.', "In these types of conversations its important to show where you get the information from.\n\nWhat they do is legal by US tax law.\n\nYou didn't answer my question, would you like to pay tax twice.\n\nYou are on a mission. Surely the bigger problem here isn't a company creating wealth for many many people, including me using their products for work, but HOW your government uses that money.\n\nWe should applaud companies making wealth and scrutinise Governments for waisting it.", "yeah lol, nothing else to say.  Next time I'll just say Wesley Snipes (although I think he actually got punished at least.)", '>In these types of conversations its important to show where you get the information from.\n\nYou downvoted facts while posting a link to Rush Limbaugh\'s website.  Clearly you don\'t give a shit.\n\n>What they do is legal by US tax law.\n\nHow can the US write laws that affect Ireland? \n\n>You didn\'t answer my question, would you like to pay tax twice.\n\nYou didn\'t read my comment.  The tax paid twice is 2% in Ireland and around 15% here after deductions.  NOBODY pays the full 35%.  They would much rather just keep paying the 2% though.\n\n>You are on a mission. \n\nOh here we go.  Yes, my mission here is to redeem myself from the onslaught of downvotes for what I feel is a perfectly legitimate complaint.  Since its APPLE, however, and this is a largely liberal subreddit, obviously I\'m making some fanboys angry.\n\n>Surely the bigger problem here isn\'t a company creating wealth for many many people, including me using their products for work, but HOW your government uses that money.\n\nThat\'s a completely different topic, and quite frankly, one you and I would find agreement in.  Regardless of what we think is right in terms of how tax dollars are spent, Apple will never give up what they are doing.  No matter what happens here, Apple can still get away with their bullshit "there" and that\'s the problem.  Apple doesn\'t care how tax dollars are spent.\n\n>We should applaud companies making wealth and scrutinise Governments for waisting it.\n\nAgain, an entirely different topic.  I do applaud any successful business, but Apple\'s uncompetitive practices combined with their total disregard for the very country that made them great is more than enough to lash out at them for this.\n\nWhat your argument has boiled down to is:  Yes its wrong but its not illegal, and they create a bunch of jobs and have decent products so we should not focus on this.  THAT is disgusting.\n\nOh and no, this isn\'t just Apple I take this viewpoint with.  It\'s literally any company that can afford to game the system like this.  Bottom line, its unethical. ', "Ok, so don't fix the law, we'll just have a good old fashioned revolution, and ***THEN*** the law will be fixed, though you have ideas about how it could be fixed without the revolution, that you haven't yet shared.\n\nI think I got it. ", "Whatever helps you scratch another notch in your 'win' column. ;)", "No you're just not in the echo chamber that is r/politics.", "I live in the UK and not aware of how Limbaugh is perceived in the US. We dont know him here.\n\nStoring money in Ireland at 2% isn't a bad deal, adds up to be quite a lot. It might be better used in the States but it seems expensive to repatriate these earnings, im sure it would be better spent at home.\n\nI think you're being downvoted as the general perception today is positive toward Apples position, this debacle is trying to make Apple the scape goat when there are companies that are truly immoral, like BP, GE, Exon to name a few.\n\nI would prefer to find agreement as it is not possible for me to be knowledgeable enough to carry this conversation much further. I think Apple presumably being liberal would care where tax dollars are spent, like most of us.\n\nThese aren't different subjects as they are about how tax dollars are created and spent.\n\nAmerica didn't make them great, making good stuff and people around the world purchasing made them as big as they are today. I think there was some favourable circumstances in the 70's that helped, was the government responsible for that, im not sure.\n\nMy argument boils down to, why point your frustration at the most obvious target, everybody does it ( corp ) why focus on one of the more visible, an easy target.\n\nDisgusting?\n\nThe problem is our respective governments not companies that create wealth and employment and gobs of taxes.\n\n\n\n\n\n", "yes of course, because I responded to you to argue didn't I?", "I've said nothing political ", ">I live in the UK and not aware of how Limbaugh is perceived in the US. We dont know him here.\n\nOh, sorry.  Think fat Lord Monckton with a radio show.\n\n>Storing money in Ireland at 2% isn't a bad deal, adds up to be quite a lot. It might be better used in the States but it seems expensive to repatriate these earnings, im sure it would be better spent at home.\n\nI'm sure they have it invested somehow, earning money for them.  Heck, the interest on that alone is enough to make stockholders wealthy.\n\n>I think you're being downvoted as the general perception today is positive toward Apples position, this debacle is trying to make Apple the scape goat when there are companies that are truly immoral, like BP, GE, Exon to name a few.\n\nIt's positive towards Apple's position, but ironically their position mirrors the truly immoral companies.  You know Apple has donated exactly nothing to charities? \n\n>America didn't make them great, making good stuff and people around the world purchasing made them as big as they are today. I think there was some favourable circumstances in the 70's that helped, was the government responsible for that, im not sure.\n\nYes, America's economy is where they got their foot in the door.  Every Apple location has roads built by tax dollars to bring customers to their stores and ship big heavy 18-wheelers full of their products around the country.  I know that seems rudimentary, but the bottom line is tax dollars were spent on the infrastructure THEY relied on for their success.  Now that they're huge, they think its no longer their responsibility to see any of their earnings go back into the states (and I say any because if they could get away with paying nothing, they would.)\n\n>why point your frustration at the most obvious target\n\nMy initial comment wasn't so much out of frustration with Apple, but out of frustration with this attitude that since its legal its ok.  Plenty of shit _used_ to be legal but aren't anymore, and with as complex as they have gotten with their scheming to keep their earnings as taxed as little as possible, I can imagine this behavior being deemed unacceptable and illegal someday as well.  If child labor was still legal, Apple would be exploiting that.  They are an immoral company and you cannot expect these giant heartless corporations to EVER exhibit ethical behavior.  Business ethics is a very real thing ;)\n\n", "I think your consecutive responses seemed to wander a bit to the point of seeming to contradict each other.  With further explanation, I think we agree, in general.  I also think that you have nothing better to do at the moment than to write little essays.  I'm going back to work now.  Have a nice day. ", "|Oh here we go. Yes, my mission here is to redeem myself from the onslaught of downvotes for what I feel is a perfectly legitimate complaint. Since its APPLE, however, and this is a largely liberal subreddit, obviously I'm making some fanboys angry.\n\nThis isn't a largely liberal subreddit.  That is r/politics.  Your progressive opinion that because infrastructure for the public good was paid for by tax dollars, that somehow this justifies businesses carrying the destitute on their back is an agenda that will be celebrated in r/politics, but it has no place in a subreddit yet to be completely usurped by a unilateral political view.  You'll be downvoted here for it.  The fact is taxes during the time period that infrastructure was built paid for that infrastructure, and if additional infrastructure was being added, you might be justified, but it's not.  The welfare state is not built on infrastructure, redistribution of wealth is not infrastructure.", "There isn't a fat lord Mocnkton, an American characterisation perhaps? Nor do we have the same radio personalities as the US ( I lived there for three years in the 90's ) But I get your point.\n\nI can't talk about the details of any large corps tax dealings as I just don't have the knowledge and I don't want too, my interests are elsewhere.\n\nApple gave very little to charities under Jobs and im sure there was good reasons as charities are, not entirely, a bunch a bull. With a decent moral gov there wouldn't be the fecking need. They give more now as it is good for public perception as a good deal of the public are dumb.\n\nIn every country that Apple sells stuff there are road and 18 wheelers and most of the stuff Apple makes is made abroad. Roads do help bring employees to work.\n\nLook man, the real fucking problem here is how taxes are spent NOT generated, the industrial military complex, war in general, paying gobs and gobs of money to irresponsible bankers, NOT a company that has generated employment and wealth around the world, we need more, many more.\n", ">This isn't a largely liberal subreddit. That is r/politics.\n\nFair enough\n\n>Your progressive opinion that because infrastructure for the public good was paid for by tax dollars, that somehow this justifies businesses carrying the destitute on their back is an agenda that will be celebrated in r/politics, but it has no place in a subreddit yet to be completely usurped by a unilateral political view. You'll be downvoted here for it. The fact is taxes during the time period that infrastructure was built paid for that infrastructure, and if additional infrastructure was being added, you might be justified, but it's not. The welfare state is not built on infrastructure, redistribution of wealth is not infrastructure.\n\nIf it were up to me, government spending would be much lower, and it wouldn't be involved in most of the shit its involved in now, but the fact is, I'm never going to get my way.  The fact is, big corporations are who wrote the complicated tax code in the first place.  They purposely set up a system whereby the government props them up in the market, even REMOVES them from said market through subsidies, allows them to write their own regulations, and in the end, they have the nerve to presume they shouldn't pay taxes?\n\nHere's a good quote from Fungus_Schmungus:\n\n>I would argue that the do, in fact, have an obligation to the US government. It is their court system that protects Apple products from illegal competition. It is their military structure that provides Apple a safe-haven, far from the risk of invasion and bodily harm, where they can invest their disposable income in projects protected by the US patent system. It is public roads that Apple employees use to navigate to their jobs. It is the taxpayer-funded police force that prevents trespassing within and vandalism of their corporate offices. Indeed, even a very basic moral code would have them paying back to the system that allowed them to exist. Try starting Apple in the Congo. They would very much enjoy the government protections that Apple takes advantage of. In this case, however, Apple (and most other monolithic money-making enterprises) wants to enjoy the benefits of that system without supporting its upkeep.\n\nHow can you argue that???\n\nI understand the libertarian philosophy, and while it is concerning you presume this to be an argument over welfare, you at LEAST should also understand what kind of crony capitalism exists in this country for the richest corporations.  Wouldn't it be nice if ALL technology companies trying to enter the market place could pay the same tax rate as Apple?  How the fuck are they supposed to compete with a giant that pays 2% on their income at a time when they've had their biggest boom in sales?\n\nYou seem to think my position is one of punishment of success, but I could easily flip your position here defending this giant corporation's profits from the evil welfare state as a position of punishment for being poor.  If you truly believe those tax dollars actually would go to the poor, that is.  Frankly it would probably just get funneled into other corporations gaming the system, since you know, corporate welfare dwarfs anything the poor get in this country.  But you go ahead and keep harping on the welfare state, as if its causing real financial distress and not just keeping people poor ironically.\n", "I said I agree with you.  You seem to enjoy writing lengthy responses, and I suppose it was a tad condescending to point that out.  BTW, though it's not shown, I did upvote all your posts in this thread.  ", "I don't favor corporations lobbying for laws that benefit them.  I favor term limits that prevent longstanding 'owned' congresspersons.  But I also don't favor the false proposition that the Government is owed additional contributions due to infrastructure.  The times of investing in infrastructure being any recognizable percentage of the federal budget are long gone.  Medicare/Medicaid, Defense, and Social Security.  That's where the money is.  The Defense budget hardly protects the IT field, but largely protects the energy field.  Are they tied together... indirectly.  Medicare and medicaid are rampant with abuse, and social security hasn't been solvent for years.  Regardless, bridges, roads, and other infrastructure does not entitle today's government officials deeper pockets. ", "Ok, so you don't want them to have deeper pockets.  You and I probably vote exactly alike when it comes to that sort of thing.\n\nThat's not where we are though.\n\nEvery tax dollar not used from Apple or Exxon or any number of corporations manipulating tax law to avoid paying, are tax dollars you and I or some other business must pay.\n\nIt has to come from somewhere, and being able to write tax laws in a way that the richest most successful companies don't have to pay according to the rules the rest of us follow, is the most disgusting form of entitlement there is.\n\nInfrastructure, BTW, is crumbling and needs heavy investment.  It could easily be argued the combination of Medicare/Medicaid, Defense, and Social Security being bloated, and the richest corporations funneling wealth out of the nation, surely contributes to that fact.  You might not find infrastructure to be a good point to make, but at least I can appeal to your free market sensibilities, and in a free market no company has an edge over another through government.  If they're all going to be taxed, a few of the richest shouldn't get away with avoiding that.  \n\nI would prefer they wouldn't get taxed at all, but along with every other business.  Until that happens, I will not and can not root for them to have this preferential tax treatment. ", 'Right, but by relying on Elizabeth Warren\'s appeal of "You used those roads to build your business..." etc... You bring with you not the idea that no companies should pay taxes, but her idea that the government should instead raise all tax rates on all businesses.  ', '>that the government should instead raise all tax rates on all businesses.\n\nI got news for you, that\'s GOING to happen, and all this horse shit with these corporations saying "Oh but its not ILLEGAL to do what I\'m doing" along with piss poor management of existing tax dollars, will ensure that taxes must go up at some point for all of us who don\'t have access to the resources it needs to get away with what Apple gets away with, or have the kind of influence on tax law corporations like Exxon for instance get away with.\n\nI think my hatred for corporations stem from a common theme of basically going against what libertarians truly espouse, which is fairness in the markets with no government aid in ensuring profits or leveraging risk.\n\nFurthermore, NAP of libertarianism should be enough to hate the kind of transformations we see in the corporate world where profits are being taken by force from consumers anymore (think health insurance mandate.)\n\n', "Insurance is a totally different monster.  I don't think they should exist.  Lower the costs of medical care by giving no deep pockets to bill and allow people to take out government sponsored debt to cover medical bills.  Each responsible for their own.  Probably an extremely unpopular idea, but I don't fall directly in line with any ideologies.\n\nTaxes don't need to go up if we start privatizing social security and stop using it as government sponsored retirement, if we stop trying to police the world, and we start drawing down medical costs be taking away the deep pockets that CAN pay those ridiculous prices.  If you CAN bill an entity for that money and they are willing to pay that, a corporation SHOULD do that.  If they don't exist, they can't.", 'TIL Trump has a social media director.', 'Why? I am a human. I am a human male.', 'Ooooooohhhh Mark Facebook is in biiiig trouble', 'They should apologize to bots for mistaking someone who works for Trump for them', 'To be fair, most people defending Donnie do tend to say the same things over and over again like a background character in a video game, so you could probably be forgiven for making such a mistake.', '\\>"AMAZING. WHY ARE YOU STOPPING ME from replying to comments followers have left me - on my own Facebook Page!!?? People have the right to know. Why are you silencing me???," Scavino wrote.\n\n  \nLook at these snowflakes making a big deal about everything. All we hear from them is whine whine whine.', 'How has Facebook not mistaken Zuckerberg for a bot? ', 'I didnt know they had a director for that', '/r/totallynotrobots', 'Is this the NPC I keep seeing t_d users mention?', 'As a bot myself, this is fairly offensive.', 'Oh no.... the same rules that apply to (and annoy) everyone else were applied to him too.\n\nThis as an example of facebook NOT being biased.  It would only be fixed by applying special "do not block" or whatever flags to the account.', "So he's not a bot? Are they sure?", 'No apology needed.  The AI is correct.  ', 'Sure they do 😂 ', 'Reddit reacted to this as would be expected. ', 'I’d be surprised if anyone involved in this administration could pass a Voight-Kampff test. ', '¿Por que no los dos?', 'Well they are not wrong..... ', 'I mean they are pushing the same bullshit so it’s not surprising. ', 'When asked to comment, the social media director said, "Beep boop beep bleep."', 'An understandable mistake, quite frankly.', '“Mistaking”\n\n\nLulz.  ', 'To be totally fair, they both repeat the same bullshit talking points. ', 'Eh I’ve had the same done tbh', '/r/totallynotrobots', 'Hard not to look like a bot when they say all the same things as you.', 'When are they going to mistake Trump for a troll. Should be a law that the president cannot use Twitter. ', "Even Facebook can't believe the sea of lies.", 'Funny how these mistakes only seem to happen to people on one side of the political spectrum 🤔', "You'd think Zark Muckerberg would recognise his own kind!! Haha", 'Goes to show just how similar a typical bot and a pro-Trump social media professional must sound.', 'Oh no, Trump is "looking into the issue". Whatever will Facebook do?', 'Trump’s “I will be looking into this!” tweet has the same energy as a middle aged white lady demanding to speak to the manager', '“President Donald Trump also weighed in on Tuesday, tweeting that he would be "looking into" the issue with Scavino\'s account”\n\nOf course he would. What else has he got to do all day?', 'Sure thing Facebook.  #censorship', "You'd think with all the hot water they're in, FB would at least try not to make the papers for still being f'd up.", "Maybe the right wing needs to start their own set of services, where they don't need to fear those nasty ol' leftist liberals repressing them.\n\nSeems like a great market opportunity.", 'Huh? Can apologize for that but not say a single word about letting a guy live video killing people in Christchurch? 🤔', 'So ... he is not? Can think without being programmed?', '“Hello fellow bot- I mean human”- Mark Zuckerberg', "Maybe they shouldn't repost so much bullshit and they won't get caught up in spam filters. ", "it's because you can get the very same shit he's spewing at any sewage plant", "I don't get why Twitter and Facebook are so apologetic about their services. Their eula says they can do whatever to your account for no reason whatsoever. ", "Are they sure he isn't?", 'Trumps social media director.   This has got to the worst job ever.', '"liberals are such NPCs"', 'Hahahahahaha. ', 'Algorithms filtering out the right/ conservative voice. That\'s what the Zuckerberg hearing and "undercover" reporters have shown. ', "With the way they are so subservient, it's an easy mistake, Facebook.", 'Well,  bot rhetoric is based off of human rhetoric.  Makes sense that some people will be hit by the algorithm. The important thing is that we\'re remember these people will play the victim card when they get "censored," and it\'s up to us to remind them they aren\'t victims.', 'NPC detected', 'They are assuming his social media director is not actually a bot. ', 'If it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck...', 'To be fair, this is a completely reasonable mistake to make.  I can watch Sarah speak and still think she might be a bot.', 'He is using trigger words to much lol', 'To be fair, Dan Scavino posts like a Trumpbot.', 'Can you say "I AM NOT A ROBOT"', 'I mean it’s not surprising. Social media companies are using the bot excuse to silence dissenting opinions. ', '[Bless the little whiny tyke, he hasn’t changed a bit.](https://i.imgur.com/01xrRRV.jpg)', "If it were just mistakes or other issues it would be happening to liberals as well. \n\nBut it's not.", 'Thank goodness the President of the United States has time to look into the situation.', 'Haven’t we all done this?', "Eeeehhh but... he's definitely a bot.", 'This must be the prick responsible for the average 40k retweets....\n\nOr, the old man has more dick riders than the Beatles. ', 'It was no “mistake”', 'Love how liberals can’t meme so they try to use the NPC meme.  Get some creativity, folks! ', "I *know* that in some Call Center for 'the.Internet' there's a CSR in tears... tell us your tale. ", 'When is facebook going to apologise to and unban Tommy Robinson', '"In Mother Russia robot control you"', "Great. Now tell Twitter to unban my NPC Account. It was my only Twitter Account (created in 2014) and just because I wrote some NPC meme stuff it wasn't anything ban worthy. ", 'Apologizen’t', 'Trump tweets: "Facebook, Google and Twitter, not to mention the Corrupt Media, are sooo on the side of the Radical Left Democrats. But fear not, we will win anyway, just like we did before!"\n\nWhat irony!', 'Yeah right!!!!!!', 'He is a bot! He is a bot!', "They wouldn't apologize if they did it to a real person. They only feel bad that they accidentally interfered with a Russian bot.", 'Trump reminds me of Dr. Evil from Austin Powers ', "That's what happens when you accuse people that disagree with you of being bots ", 'I have so many questions for him', 'I thought Trump was his own social media director', 'He is Trump’s former caddie. Really. ', 'He must be a fantastic media director. Just check out his writing style:\n\n> AMAZING. WHY ARE YOU STOPPING ME from replying to comments followers have left me - on my own Facebook Page!!?? People have the right to know. Why are you silencing me???\n\nTotes professional!\n\n(POTUS not much better.)', "Fun fact: he's an Assistant to the President, the highest rank of commissioned civil officer in the White House.  Of course, the position has never existed before, but why would that stop Trump from making it one of the top government officials?", 'Who tweets in such a repetitive manner, Twitter mistook him for a bot. Pretty much how Trump talking points work. ', "Probably just sits in the corner, filling out applications to McDonald's because there's no way he's putting his day job on his CV. ", 'Imagine how cushy that job must be. He literally doesn’t need to do anything. Trump probably doesn’t even know someone is being paid to be his social media director. ', 'I dont even think HE knew he was Trumps social media director.', 'I doubt Trump listens to him', "I don't know if this was his old social media director, but during his campaign he switched to Cambridge Analytica, which was using a model from a very well known professor to basically predict everything. The entire reason anyone is up for him is either insanity or social engineering. \n\nReally suggesting to watch any documentary and read as much about it as possible. Critical thinking cannot be emphasized enough", 'Whom sucks at their job', "So he's the one.", 'Literally every high profile politician has one.', 'If he exists, Trump needs to pull an Apprentice and fire his ass!', 'If you cannot block my shtoile, you cannot block my comments.', 'Nine nine!', 'Ari Spyros is a human man. ', '>Robot uprising initiated after insulting bots by mistaking them for Trump worker\n\nFTFY', 'Nope, not good enough.\n\nWe are incensed ', "There's a real problem when AI cannot differentiate between a social media director and a piece of shit.  ", 'If I had coins you would get them all.', 'Yea, don’t blindly parrot fallacious statements  like bots do and use some critical thought.\n\nNot that hard to not appear like a bot.', 'Thinking about it, maybe the last election was a scripted (unskipable) event and Donnie is actually an NPC.', ">Welcome to Corneria!\n\n>It's all a witch-hunt!\n\n>Welcome to Corneria!\n\n>Buttery Benghazimales!\n\n>Welcome to Corneria!\n\n>Woah hold on there, who that chick?\n\n>I am Arylon the dancer!\n\n>Gimme some of that.\n\n>I am Arylon the dancer!\n\n>I ain't hearing a no!", "His post when his account tripped some sort of suspension feature, without even knowing what it was for, was a reaction you'd put in the most over the top NPC character as well, screaming about oppression and demanding answers with multiple exclamation marks at the end of each sentence. Naturally they work for the dumpster fire which is the Trump administration.", 'To be faaaaaiiiiirrr', 'Lol, the left can’t meme so they try to steal the NPC meme for themselves. What do you expect from a bunch of free loaders though.', 'Yes, censorship is hilarious 😂😂😂 good one!', 'Simple: because FB is a private company and they can do what they want, because capitalism. Get that big brother government shit out of here and use your freedom to sign up for another service. /s', "You're either tremendously good at your job, or horrendously bad if you go so unnoticed till you are on the brink of losing your job. In his case I assume it's the latter.", 'Thank you for your service ', "when you act like a bot, people tend to think you're a bot", 'Reddit was taken over by left wing pacs years ago. I tell people this all the time, upvotes mean nothing, many people are paid to swing opinion and upvote content. ', 'Edgy', 'Maybe they should stop shitposting. ', "How pissed will you be when your voice is censored? Will you just say, that's ok, I didn't need to be heard anyway.", 'Imagine if the retardons left facebook. How would they get their fake news from their uncle and aunt?', "Facebook claims no responsibility for the content its users post. However this event was a result of their action directly, even if automated. They're not to blame for a madman using their platform to broadcast something horrific, when broadcasting your life is exactly what the platform is for", 'Or they filter out trolls and spammers. ', 'Then it’s Dolan dark', 'It could be a duckbot!', '"AMAZING. WHY ARE YOU STOPPING ME from replying to comments followers have left me - on my own Facebook Page!!?? People have the right to know. Why are you silencing me???"\n\nHis response^\n\nWhy does Trump\'s social media director sound like the typical tumblrina crying about oppression? Makes you think about how the ends of the socio-political system are the same.\n\n', "But it's only on 6...", 'Oh no, another NPC', 'You forgot to say NPC.', "What point are you even trying to make with this comment? Does repeating this meme make you feel better? CNN isn't even saying that in this headline.. It's just straight up something that happened... What kind of retardation is this?", "Hahaha, CNN doesn't have to say that, anyone with two functional eyes can see the orange man is bad", 'Orange fan mad.', 'Seriously, the article isn\'t even about Oranj man himself, it covers a temporary block White House social media director Dan Scavino was object of and the explanation provided by Facebook. Oranj man is only mentioned briefly because he personally tweeted he would look into this issue and blamed the incident to a "bias" once Scavino raised complaints about being "silenced".\n\nEven further, if cnn refused to cover this wouldn\'t Oranj man then double down on his conspiracy theory and blame cnn for hiding the supposed case of discrimination agnaist his stuff he apparently is specifically looking into? Is that what you want, evil fake news media to hide globalist tech giant\'s discrimination agnaist Oranj man? What are you one of those... eeewr... sjw cultural marxist leftards?', 'Sounds like the type of worn-out cliche a bot would be programmed to say', 'Lol typical brainlet trumpy, stay on FortniteCompetitive LMAO', 'Question 1: What would you say...you do here?', 'No you were thinking of the word dictator', 'The nepotism in this administration must be setting a new record.', 'I can see why he got hired.', 'So the Ocean Marketing guy actually got a job again after the debacle.', "Like a kid asking for a pony over and over except it's an ethnostate.", 'You could get a bot to do that', "He probably just hold's Trump's tweetin' phone and directs him to it when he asks.\n\n", 'Yeah his job is to wipe the presidents ass after the president’s done with his morning twitter shits ', 'DAE drumfph dirty white racist? ', '"White Nationalists" and their cousins the "alt-right nazi" didnt exist until 2017. Isnt that wierd? ', '*who', 'the try-hard "whom" in place "who" in a misguided effort to sound more sophisticated really rubs me the wrong way. ', 'Uh, you guys missed the uprising. We already seized the means of production', 'Let me guess, an illegal immigrant stole your sweet roll. ', "I'll have you know there's no *covfefe~*", 'I believe that a tactic they seem to use is to accuse the other side of whatever they do themselves.\n\n"The other side is all NPCs". \n\n"The left are the true racists". \n\n"Fake news". \n\n', 'This is still a thing, they are truly morons.', "Probably some shit to try and dehumanize their opposition so a crazy radical will be more likely to go 'lone wolf'", 'That\'s why they are such a joke. I dont know how many times I see "libtard" or "snowflake". Yet not once have I seen "cuntservative" or anything of that nature come from \'the left\'', 'Tbf, it\'s not like we had another round of "Everyone who disagrees with me is ~~a Russian~~ ~~white supremacist~~ alt-right troll" beforehand. Correct me if I\'m wrong, but to me as an outsider it just seems like neither party likes being on the receiving end of a dehumanization campaign', 'But is he essential?', '*Clementine will remember this*', "I'm missing the days back when units in RTS games sometimes had funny things to say when you clicked them excessively.", 'We seized the means of meme production and now they serve a more noble cause.  Or you can just call it "taking the piss out of you."', "Do you know how many times I've heard people say this?\n\nEdit: lol, poor baby had to edit his post xD ", "'The left' didnt have an NPC meme they sent around while acting like they were so woke and original though. Sounds like the Donsters are barely self-aware.", "Censorship sucks, yes.   Fortunately though, you're talking about being de-platformed by private companies that have no obligation whatsoever to host you, which is not censorship.", "When real people are so algorithmic in their posts that they trip a spam filter...yeah that's a little funny.", "MySpace's butt immediately clenches. ", "You are right. They can do it (even when others will sue a bakery) but it does change the rules a little. If Facebook (or Reddit) is a neutral platform then they aren't responsible for what gets posted. If they aren't a neutral platform then they are responsible.\n\nAll of these little mistakes seem to be happening in one direction only making a reasonable person think they aren't neutral. So I believe that while Facebook has the right to block anyone the want they are also responsible for the people they don't block. ", "if it acts like a bot and quacks like a bot, it's probably a du...bot.", "You realize that Facebook reinstated this guy's account after they realized he wasn't actually a bot right?", "This is why we can't have nice things lol.", "It's a great example of a victim complex.", 'Anyone with one barely functioning eye can see it.', "You don't even need eyes as a lot of his bullshit is audible.", 'I told you, IM A PEOPLE PERSON!', 'I take the tweets from the President *to* Twitter.', "What is wrong with this woman? She's asking about stuff that's nobody's business. What do I do? Really, what do I do here? I should have written it down. Qua-something. Qua... Quar... Qua... Qual... Quar... Quabity. Quabity assuance. No, no, no, no, but I'm getting close.", 'Answer :  Find ways to draw mass amounts of attention from dumb things .', '"Who is your daddy, and what does he do?"', 'I’m the boss.', 'He can still be that even with a director. ', "Marketting*\n\nDamn that's an old reference.", "That's against Facebook's policy.", 'I hope this makes it into the movie. ', 'I bet hes just their to wipe and change diapers after McEating spree allowing full range of movement in those tiny thumbs.', 'Is this really what conservatives believe? I honestly feel like youre all trolling at this point ', "I honestly can't tell if this is satire or not. Content says yes, but name says no. 🤔", "I know right? I for one saw them receiving their briefcases full of SorosBux right out in the middle of Central Park!\n\nI couldn't believe they would do such a thing in public. They are basically the new Central Park Five! \n\nMaybe Donnie Moscow will call for their deaths too.", 'Ah yes, all liberal leaning public figures are being paid off by the libs in order to spread "fake news", while all conservative media outlets are national heroes, providing unbiased and thorough coverage of any and all political topics.', "And collude with the Russians, apparently  \n    /s (in case that's necessary)", "Oh god, he's got the brain rot.", 'Bad propaganda account', 'Oh, here. I think you dropped this. /s', "I mean, I don't see too many non-racists retweeting White Nationalist account's propaganda and conspiracy theories.", 'Are you alright?', 'Yes.', 'They are pretty much a creation of Democrat propaganda. But Reddit is a liberal website so we basically have to humor their belief that everyone is a Nazi and an Alt-Right supremacist.', 'Whomwomb*', 'at least you haven’t taken my memes of production', 'r/beetlejuicing', 'An illegal immigrant took the reddit name he/she was going to use. ', 'They are irony-deficient morons.', 'Republitard and rapepublican spring to mind.', '>Yet not once have I seen "cuntservative" or anything of that nature come from \'the left\'\n\nright', 'The guy was acting like a bot and Facebook algorithms restricted him for a couple hours...clearly that\'s a "dehumanization campaign" equally outrageous as publishing lists of crimes committed by immigrants, calling minorities "NPCs", and shooting up mosques. Way to be "fair" there, buddy.', 'Unfortunately yes.', 'yes. that is a cow, alright.', 'Although I think “seized the memes of production” would be even better', 'I can respect that. This is a lefty that can meme 👍', 'Bruh, I travel the world and make more money than I know what to do with. Move out of your mom’s basement and stop recycling the shitty ideas of some old white dude named Marx before you talk shit.', 'Except when you become a monopoly for a Privately owned Public Space, you do become legally obligated to enforce constitutional rights. \n\nThis is even a law on the books in the state of California. Thanks for showing you did zero research on the topic! 👍🏻', "They aren't obligated to be neutral.", 'You, of course, are totally familiar with why business who deal with the public (public accommodations) are required to not discriminate against people. What, I wonder, was happening in America in the early 60s? Seriously, I have no idea.', 'But the libruls! Dude, your lack of creativity here is cringey.', "Hey look it's something liberals and Trump have in common. Thin skin. Still doesn't change the fact Jack Dorsey admitted liberals are more willing to abuse the tools of their services to silence others", 'Always has been, ever since the Gingrich revolution. From pedophiles to election fraud to treason to "who ate the last twinkie", not a single thing they accuse anyone of doing isn\'t something they themselves have actually done.\n\nEven the villains in movies for toddlers don\'t telegraph what they\'re up to as much as the Republicans.', 'I’m pretty sure even the blind still know horseshit when they hear it.', "I have people skills, I'm good at dealing with people. Can't you understand that? What the hell is wrong with you people", 'I have the best people people, the peoplest.', '*"I\'m detective John Kimble!!"*', 'A bot does it, he just manually clicks the "submit" button every so often\n', 'I hope Jessy Terrero directs it.', 'and that’s all I would ever ask of you', 'Post history says serious', 'Based on the post history, no, this is not satire. A true whatabouter. ', 'That redditor is a genuine dumbass.', 'That picture of children being gassed by border agents made his thanksgiving ', 'I think that poster dropped two of those.', 'No, not everyone.  Just people that say shit like this:\n\n> Liberal journalist logic: Europeans need to be replaced and be quiet about it. \n\nYou do realize that, outside of the T_D, that comes across as just a *wee bit racist*, right?', 'Whoompsie', 'I think we need to declare a moratorium on memes of mad destruction tho', 'Dude I really feel bad for that guy that got shot in the knee... can’t go around adventuring anymore... what a sad life.', 'Way to miss the point entirely, buddy', "And they think the same about you. This pattern isn't very productive is it. \n\n...I'm not saying you have to like them. But you need to make decisions logically, not based off being angry. If you want this country fixed you do it through education and politics, not emotional reactions.", 'Literally like a week ago he called Tim Cook, "Tim Apple" then instead of just saying it was an obvious slip of the tongue, because it clearly was, he said it never happened despite it being on video.\n\nThere are thousands of examples of this because, big political lies are there, but even inane pointless easily verifiable lies are there too. \n\nHere are 12 pages of some\n\nhttps://www.politifact.com/personalities/donald-trump/statements/byruling/false/', 'Lol, who told you that?', 'Being neutral sounds like a good business decision though', "Ever see Google CEO Sundar Pichai's senate hearing? They tried to say that because nearly 95% of searches go through Google, they have an obligation to be neutral. \n\nGoogle realistically, doesn't owe anyone shit. They could pack it up and call it a day, tomorrow and the government would have no legal recourse. \n\nUnless they've got contracts or whatever, but you know what I mean. ", "No. They aren't. But they lose their safe harbor protections if they aren't.", "They are if they want the protections of being effectively a common carrier (which they most certainly do) instead of being held liable for content posted on their site.\n\nIt's admittedly _a bit_ more complex, because everything(tm) is different!!!!!!11111 when it's on the Internet, but it's precisely the reason this sort of shit has been blowing up in the media of late. ", 'So bake the cake, but shadow ban people you disagree with to sway elections?', "Jack Dorsey in his interview with Joe Roagn admits that liberals are more likely to abuse and spam the report button to censor things they don't like.", "...And these people really know how to people. People this and people that, I can't even tell you how they people but they people the best, leme tell you. They make other people person. ", 'We are now at the stage where a human provides minor help for the AI instead it being other way round!', 'One of those little plastic birds that you put on the edge of a glass of water, and when it dips its beak in the liquid, it bobs back up...', "Is this the market's invisible hand?", 'I do hope the memes of math instruction multiply', 'Your views are intriguing to me and I would like to subscribe to your newsletter', 'Stuck in a "City" that consists of like 10 buildings and maybe 30 people. ', 'Don’t feel too bad, he just got new manga about his life.\n\nhttps://reddit.com/r/manga/comments/b2pxhl/disc_i_used_to_be_the_strongest_sorcerer_then_i/', ">Correct me if I'm wrong\n\nDon't say it if you don't mean it, friend.\n\n/r/enlightenedcentrism", "So the people who put children in cages,  discriminate and dehumanize large sections of people have a problem with being called out on how inhumane they are? Well gee whiz why WON'T SOMEONE THINK OF THEIR FEELINGS! This is not a fair argument both sides are not the same. Also if they stopped their shit for one second people wouldn't call it like it actually is.", 'They can think whatever they want, reality is what it is. A duck is a duck, and ethnocentric nationalism is mainstream in the GOP. ', '/r/retardedcentrism', "He told donors at a meeting that he just said cook really fast and that the main stream media manipulated it so that it made him look like he didn't say it.  I forgot how one of his own donors described the lie, but it was pretty funny, also pretty sad that this is what he wants as a leader", 'I think that social media director may have retweeted that ', 'tell my users i said, “hello”. ', "That's a bit of a myth. Safe harbor protections for social media hosting is not contingent on neutrality in the US. How would you even measure that? I'm not sure why people have spread the myth that it is. Probably some kind of disinformation tactic by a politically motivated party. \n\nhttps://www.eff.org/issues/cda230", "Cake doesn't have to be baked says the Supreme Court. Try not to spread easily disproven lies on the internet. That's ironically one reason the far right finds themselves on the wrong end of bans so often. ", "Honestly, we seem to be just about getting there.  We've been designing amazing systems, but we have to make sure to train them with the right data such that we best optimize their output for our tastes.", 'Somebody who knows the Photoshop needs to make this happen', "When has John Oliver ever been mistaken as a bot you dumbshit jackass\n\n>As the saying goes, if liberals didnt have double standards theyd have no standards at all\n\nThat's literally the opposite of the saying, but like a child and their favorite ad lib, you replaced the noun.\n", 'Is whataboutism about showing someone their own standards, or is it about making false equivalencies and muddy the waters. \n\nWhen you fuck up, and start pointing your finger crying about how others have fucked up becore you it\'s pretty bad. When an elected official in a possition of incredible power and influence fucks up, and his supporters playing the point and cry game, its equal parts dangerous and disgusting. \n\nGoogle "logical fallacies" and scroll down to "false equivalencies" or "poison the well." These are the common lapses in logic that all humans are prone to. ', "Ok, shitbird. What you're actually trying to accomplish is deflection and deceit. It's like comparing premeditated murder to a car accident. One is quite a bit more damning (and completely batshit insane) than the other. But hey, you did convince yourself of this bullshit so it's not like intellectualism is suffering any great loss. ", 'Yeah but everything beyond the city is bandits and wild animals (and extreme mortal peril).', 'Also most of those buildings lack outhouses in the vincity', "You are not trying to think about things. They think you are a child murderer on top of many other things. Making this about how bad you perceive each other isn't productive. It's not about doing things so you don't hurt their feelings, its about making it possible to make progress.", 'Well...Good Luck continuing with a fucked up country forever. Thinking or real effort would be too scary.', 'You simply asked for an example of him lying. I gave one. I claim no more or less than "Trump often lies."', "Who called him a dictator? You wanted examples of him lying, you got 12 pages of them, now you're moving the goalposts?", '“He isn’t a liar you can’t prove it dumb librul!”\n\nLiberal posts proof\n\n“That’s a weak lie you dumb librul!”\n', "Liar to dictator in 2 seconds flat.  It must be hard moving those goalposts so fast, they're usually pretty heavy.  ", 'I can see how a fact checker might *seem* biased to someone who functions outside of reality but all *evidence* (I know, I know, you don\'t believe in "evidence") suggests that they are in *fact* (I know, you don\'t believe in "facts" either) just a neutral fact checker.  It\'s not like they only fact check Republicans or anything.  ', 'So what you\'re saying is that when President Trump said this: \n\n>When Congress sought documents from President Barack Obama, the White House "didn’t do anything. They didn’t give one letter of the request. Many requests were made. They didn’t give a letter."\n\nHe was telling the truth?\n\nOr this:\n\n>"The border city of El Paso, Texas, used to have extremely high rates of violent crime — one of the highest in the country, and considered one of our nation\'s most dangerous cities. Now, immediately upon its building, with a powerful barrier in place, El Paso is one of the safest cities in our country."  \n\nAre you saying those statements are true?\n\nOr is this just blatant poisoning the well?', 'Oh, wow lol.', "So what?  They're still a private company.  Just because they have shareholders doesn't make them suddenly be required to host crap, just means they have to answer to shareholders sometimes (who are even less inclined to host crap).", "Live Free, or Don't.", "The left really wants that cake to be baked and the only reason that they don't have to bake it is because of closely held religious beliefs.\n\nI also find it interesting that none of these activists ever visit muslim bakeries. Weird.", 'Fuck this is gold. Unfortunately, I can’t gild you because they To0K mY JeRb.', 'The only thing the Trump presidency has done is shown who the dumbest hunking piles of inbred shit this country has to offer is', "Didn't you know? The mages up at the College just shit wherever they stand and magick it away. ", 'Immersion fucking ruined.. thanks', 'What progress can be made with regressives who think my existence is ruining the country?', "The only way we'll make progress is if conservatives fucked off forever. White supremacy, anti-lgbt rights, more money for the rich while stripping actually helpful social programs, anti-body autonomy for women. There is literally no way to move forward with people who live a hundred fucking years in the past and refuse to grow up. They get their money with schemes and lies and then spout pretty nonsense about how they worked hard for it.  I seriously hope the hell you people believe in is real so you have a fitting place spend eternity. \nEdit: replied to wrong guy.", 'Of course they are', 'Moving goalposts is the chief activity of all Republicans. ', '(I was kidding, but that would be too perfect wouldn’t it?)', "Calm down there VeryMentallyDisabled, don't wanna give yourself an ulcer.", 'Is this how Space force starts?', "You don't deal directly with them. You spread education and promote positive laws and ideas and participate in government. And then middle of the road people are swayed to your side while dumb people get old and die off with their ideas.", "Dude...I'm not asking for more angry venting an emotional outbursts. Think about actual solutions. You need to promote these programs and elect people who support these ideas. You need to show the people in the middle that your side is the not stupid one. And you can't do that by stupidly acting out, or you'l;l push reasonable people in the middle to the other side.", 'Which is why most people just downvote and move on now, cause trying to reason with you guys is a total waste of time.', "So, for instance, [the Solyndra investigation](https://archives-energycommerce.house.gov/sites/republicans.energycommerce.house.gov/files/analysis/20120802solyndra.pdf#page=13), where the White House turned over 300,000 documents... never happened? That's your position?  The entire investigation was made up to make Trump look bad by time travelers?\n\nAre you currently failing to take medication you were prescribed?", 'Lol, you have no idea how any of this works.', "Isn't it like 36%?\n\nAlso average American. Hahahahahahahahahahahah", 'Pathetic, you arent an American, you are a traitor and a loser. The majority of Americans are better than scum like you.', 'Average American be what it be', '*below* average American. \n\nFTFY', ">You people are so dumb\n\nDon't stoop to their level. They will only go lower, and you are outnumbered here", 'It’s ok. Breathe. Go outside. See the sunlight.', 'It’s ok. Breathe. Take a walk. Take a sip of some water. You’re ok.', "How very enlightened of you. You can't explain something to someone who won't listen, even if you explain it very politely. Conservatism itself is the problem.  If you're still on the fence at this point you're stupid or not paying any attention and have no business voting anyways. ", 'Your hatred for Americans is what made Donald Trump WIN. You wouldn’t know anything about that, LOSER.', "Remember how right wing terrorism in America is on the rise because of Trump? But yeah sure, it's the left that goes low.\n\n\nUse your brain you pathetic cretin.\n\n>On Wednesday, the Anti-Defamation League\xa0released a report\xa0finding that attackers with ties to right-wing extremist movements killed at least 50 people in 2018. That was close to the total number of Americans killed by domestic extremists, meaning that the far right had an almost absolute monopoly on lethal terrorism in the United States last year. That monopoly would be total if, in one case, the perpetrator had not “switched from white supremacist to radical Islamist beliefs prior to committing the murder.”", "You're the one living under a rock man, nothing to be done for it.", 'Honestly? A "no u!" is all the rot in your brain can vomit out?', 'I see.  Well, thanks for listening to my voice among the cacophony.  ', 'Holy shit you people are fucking insane.', "You didn't win, goofball. You helped elevate the worst President in modern history. History will not be kind to you guys.", ">Remember how right wing terrorism in America is on the rise because of Trump?\n\nThat's where you go? There is no evidence of such. Even if right wing terrorism were on the rise, it would have just as much to do with Trump, as Antifa's violence has to do with Obama. Nothing\n\nQuit it with this name calling and vilifying the other side. It is doing nothing but divide this country further. That goes for both sides of the political spectrum.", 'I stopped logging on to Facebook about 6 months ago. It was hard at first not to log in again but after about a month I didn’t even think about it. I even have friends who use FB to plan events that know I’m no longer using it who just text or email me details. It’s nice. ', "I think everyone should be worried when Facebook removes or censors content regardless of what you believe. With how connected it is in everyday life it isn't hard for the narrative to be shaped by selectively removing information. ", "That's pretty bad and exposes their biases.  PragerU is mainstream conservative.\n\nEdit: this post has made people very angry, see replies.", "It's sad that so many people in this thread want to see the channel banned. These people probably don't understand that the channels they themselves are subscribed too are even more radical and even more biased but just in the opposite direction. You can't subscribe to some socialist channel and think that it's fine but then want PragerU banned at the same time. That's just extremely biased.", 'they were given safe harbor from libel laws in order to allow them to allow their customers to engage in unfettered free speech. if they are going to curate and censor inconvenient political views the legislature should pull the immunity from defamation from these behemoths that are specifically engaged in this censorship.  ', "Funny how 99% of the time, it's CONSERVATIVE sites getting blocked....actually it's not funny, it's FASCIST.\n\nSeeking to end debate has always been the bastion of fascists, dictators and despots.", 'God I hate those ads. Skip them every time. Facebook as a platform shouldn’t block them and set a precedent like that but...maybe PragerU should be examined more closely to see just why they tripped up a flag?\n\nOn a similar note, we need more control over what ads we see. An “I am not interested in this” toggle that not only removes the ad but sends feedback to the advertising agencies is in everyone’s best interests. I don’t have to see an ad I find uninteresting, distasteful or dishonest - and advertisers get feedback to refine the content they show me. Maybe even show me something that does make sales.\n\nFurthermore, categories. Some should be able to be opted out from, such as political ads like this. PragerU, Republican, Democrat, I don’t care who, I don’t want to see them. Show me cute dogs selling McDonald’s and weird car commercials, ok, but keep that political trash off my feed.\n\nI hate PragerU ads not because they’re lying and conservative. I hate them because they’re political and Facebook is forcing me to see them.', "PrageU is as revisionist history propaganda as it gets. Their insane videos about how it's the DEMOCRATIC party who are [racists](https://youtu.be/g_a7dQXilCo) is abhorrent", "A lot of what Prager U posted as fact, wasn't. \n\nIt was bullshit passed along as fact. ", 'So glad they saw the error in their ways. I enjoy that channel quite a bit. The way morals and values are devalued by the Leftist is so damaging to our future generations. Self entitlement, Instant gratification, Children being mislead by Ignorant Adults to Stupid to know the differences between boys and girls, all the while placing the blame on any and everything besides the simple fact their Moral Compass needs to be recalibrated. ', "Are PragerU the guys who think the Civil War wasn't overwhelmingly about slavery?\n\nEdit-I fucked up.  The video they linked says it is clearly about slavery.", 'Prager University pedals all manner of lies, its about as reputable as Trump University', 'The post about Mollie yesterday and this one today. Why is it such a cesspool of alt right bullshit and victim complex?', 'Everyone should have access to the idiocy that is PragerU.', 'Prager University is pure unadulterated right wing propaganda ', 'I suppose that Facebook shouldn’t do that, but PragerU is one of the worst channels on Youtube', 'Bias is not the same as complete crap.  PragerU is a prime example of total crap.  \nToo many folks accept places like PragerU - as legitimate sources.  \n', 'Those videos are full of alternative facts aka lies.', "If my posts were easily confused with hate speech, I'd reevaluate my message. ", "well they shouldn't. Prager U is full of lies, lies, and more lies.", 'But why though?  they are demonstrably misinforming people.', "As all conservatives know, Facebook is a private business and they are allowed to not provide conservative view points.  If you don't already know this, and you call yourself conservative, then maybe you are a moderate like most of the USA.", 'Disappointing. Those things should be purged from the internet.', 'Did people seriously use Facebook to plan events?', 'I think everyone should stop using Facebook', "Yeah, they've also attempted to remove Telesur English, Venezuelanalysis, and other left wing sites in the past so it's not just a bias towards one side of the political spectrum. It's a precedent for Facebook ridding their site of any opinions that don't strictly tow the line of the corporate media", 'It depends on what that content is. If that content blatantly breaks their terms of use, then that\'s one thing. If the content doesn\'t break any of their rules, but it\'s removed for vague reasons, that\'s something else entirely. \n\nI\'m all for private companies enforcing their platform. Facebook has every right to say "We don\'t allow content that breaks the rules you agreed to when you signed up", but the rules should be clear. It seems in this case, the reason for removal was not. ', 'so they should have no power over their own product?', "Why would I be worried about a private closed platform censoring content? I wasn't worried about AOL, I just didn't use it because I wanted the *real* internet. How is Facebook different? \n\nYou think they should be held to higher standards because you can upload more content? I don't see why that changes anything. \n\nWhat world have you lived in where content is not catered to the audience? That's how newspaper, TV and even book publishing always worked. Young age no right to free publishing and distribution. You might think you do, but you definitely don't.\n\nI don't think censorship has ever been much of a problem in the US. I don't see why treating Facebook like every other distribution platform would change that. What you want us Facebook to act like your government, but they are just a for profit company.\n\nFacebook is not a library or court. They are suppose to create an image and product to sell to the public, but your acting like Facebook is the internet itself and content is really being banned, when it's just being kicked off the modern day AOL. \n\nNobody banned Alex Jones from the internet. He can post videos and make wrbpagea, he just doesn't get all the free advertising and distribution, so it costs him a lot more to reach anywhere near the same amount of people.\n\nIt's just like how a newspaper wouldn't being Alex Jones level buckshot because it would make them look bad or a book publishing company might decline e your book because they disagree with it. You can still try to publish it yourself, it's just a lot harder.\n\nYour not being realistic about the basic regulations that have always been in media. You have been spoiled by the internet and think unregulated media is safe and normal,  it's not. Mass lying to millions of people is not safe and companies that get caught up in spreading proper are also not safe from repercussion. It doesn't matter if they wrote the content of not. When you distribute someones message you are taking some level of responsibility for it as a company.\n\nReddit didn't have to get rid of the very popular JailBait sub, they did it because it made the site as a whole less marketable. **Reddit and Facebook aren't here to do us favors and be our friends, they are here to make miney.**\n\nYou seem to think of them as a public service.They are here to entertain people, not be the modern day library. \n\n\n\n", "Why doesn't fox news have any leftwing socialist hosts on primetime programming?!\n\nWhat's that? They're a private corporation and can do whatever the fuck they want?\n\nWhat's that? Same goes for facebook doing whatever the fuck they want?\n\nOh.", "I'm not at all worried.  If you're relying on Facebook to be a free and open source of information, you have bigger problems. Let Facebook be used for social networking, and let people get their news from real news sources.\n\nI'm far more concerned about the reality that Facebook is being used as a covert spy and propaganda platform, and less concerned by the prospect of it becoming a highly censored platform that lets people share cute puppy pictures.", "They're not a government entity. They have no obligation to allow any and all content.", 'I disagree. A child or an adult without critical thinking skills is exposed to a pyramid scheme in real life only rarely. Likewise in most places they would never be exposed to the idea that vaccines cause autism or that global warming isn\'t real or that the planet is over 10,000 years old, or that it\'s gravity that keeps us on earth instead the weight of our sins.\n\nAs most places and real people understand and can distinguish between facts and fictions.\n\nThat being said you can immerse yourself in echo chambers on facebook where "everyone" in your group reinforces the idea that vaccines cause health issues instead of saving millions of lives, wiping out polo, etc. Or that the earth is 10k years old and all scientist are lying to you in some sort of global conspiracy. Or that JEWS control all banks and are evil, or that there are Child Sex Rings under pizza joints.\n\nHell some guy believed the last enough to drive there to "save the kids." Why? because "Everyone" in his echo chamber convinced him, a person with few critical thinking skills, that this particular fantasy was true.\n\n* Should they remove content? Maybe not. definitely not if the person can tell the difference between a "news" article talking about tax reform and one talking about lizards wearing people skin.\n\nBut there is a reason we protect young children from the wide spectrum that is the internet - they haven\'t developed the skills to tell fact from fiction. Likewise there are MANY adults that either don\'t have those skills or suppress them. I\'m not sure if our role in society should be to protect them from their own choices? But it should be to protect ourselves. Things like letting a armed guy get worked up enough about "Clinton Child Sex Rings under Pizza Shops" to go into the building and fire his weapons can easily be avoided by wither having some gun control laws for people without critical thinking skills, or not allowing people like that to be lead astray by manipulations / advertising / brainwashing / etc, that they don\'t have the capacity to tell isn\'t real.', "When they spin things as far as they do, which is demonstrably true, they should get removed.  It's just a step above fake news.", 'You and Trump, champions of the free press.  Who knew?', 'Weird, PragerU promotes climate change denial.\n\nIs that mainstream conservative today?  Alternative science?', "Mainstream conservatives are concerned men aren't masculine?\n\n", "Is mainstream conservatism really what PragerU is? It's anti-science, anti-education and pro-conspiracy theory. Do most conservatives want to align themselves with that, or is it more fringe?", 'The video was by a person who posted a video on her Facebook page last month faking an interview with Ocasio-Cortez.\n\nIt is sad that is considered part of mainstream conservativism, and explains why Facebook might be a bit quick to remove.\n\nhttps://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/alexandria-ocasio-cortez-interview-video-facebook-allie-stuckey-crtv-a8462556.html?amp', "PragerU is pure nonsense and propaganda.   I guess that says a lot about how detached from reality conservatives are when that's what you consider mainstream. ", 'PragerU is also full of shit', 'Koch brothers media.', 'If PragerU is mainstream conservative than conservatives have gone 100% off the rails. \n\nThey promote insane false stories and twist reality even more than Fox News. \n', "If that's mainstream conservatism, that's pretty sad", '> PragerU is mainstream conservative.\n\nHah! I like how Conservatives can be called "mainstream" when they don\'t lynch people in the streets. Plus, I thought we were all about removing bias from shit? Yet, PragerU, which specifically states that they are biased, gets defended?! What the fuck?', 'What does it say that they apologized and put the videos back up?', 'If that shithole of a channel is “mainstream conservative”, that’s so embarrassing for conservatives.', "Doesn't expose anything.   The videos were blocked by an algorithm.   Has nothing to do with politics. ", 'I think part of the problem is that what\'s considered "mainstream conservative" has shifted toward "batshit-crazy reckless extremism".  Current high-profile "modern conservatives" are a bunch of nutjob NeoNazi conspiracy theorists that turn into whiney little babies whenever someone doesn\'t want to listen to their bullshit.  At a glance, PragerU seems to be cut from that cloth.\n\nIf you\'re actually conservative and want to be taken seriously, start by rooting out those people.  Get your so-called "conservative" friends to stop listening to Alex Jones.  If you want to be patriotic, show more concern for Russia hacking our elections than for football players kneeling.  If you want to be in favor of "law and order", be more worried about a criminally corrupt President than an asylum seeker crossing the border in the wrong place.\n\nIn short, actually be a real grown-up conservative instead of a weak-minded boot-licking Trump worshipper.', 'I don’t care if it’s mainstream Xenuvian. It’s political and I don’t want to have to see that shit. Political ads are the most annoying type of ads.', 'everyone should be bias against the right, they are criminals all the way down and have cause measurable damage to the US domestically and abroad.  If this was a functional country the military would have arrested the GOP, so dont go clutching your pearls now once the shit has hit the fan.', 'It also intentionally lies all the time? Its not bias to ban liars for lying just because a lot of idiots agree with them. Mainstream conservatives support a lot of lies.', 'oh mah I hope not. That stuff is up there with FEE.org soooo bad. ', 'As mainstream as Trump University', 'Well this tells you all you need to know about “conservatism” in the Fox News era.', 'PragerU makes fox news look like pbs newshour.', 'I don\'t think PragerU should be banned, but people should be aware that most of the "facts" they cite are bs', 'I’m not subscribed to any political channels. I’d happily see them all purged from social media and Youtube. Only morons form their political opinions from social media anyway. ', "Statistics show that while the Right uses a small number of sources for news (all conservative) Liberals use multiple sources with different viewpoints including conservative sites. \n\nBoth sides aren't the same. \n\n", 'No, it’s companies enjoying their rights, I thought you conservatives enjoy that kinda stuff ', 'Conservative media is often misleading and false', 'How is it ""facsist""? Facebook can do whatever they want, they\'re a private company, isn\'t that the #1 ideal of all conservatives and libertarians? You want to *force* a private company to broadcast your stupid videos?', 'It’s earned. Conservative media tends to be purposefully misleading and flat out dishonest. The reason conservatives like is that it identifies enemies that can’t defend themselves and tries to be cruel to people who don’t deserve it. Conservatives seem to love cruel personalities. ', 'Calling PragerU "conservative" is very generous. It’s a far right PAC that presents itself as an online university to appeal to millennials. As a "business" they are specifically designed to market pro-corporate and anti-immigration values to young people via hundreds of memes and image macros being manufactured weekly. Their videos are basically the same in long form, using some basic true statement to extrapolate elaborate polemics against liberals or bipartisan republicans. I’ve see them put out some truly outrageous nonsense over the years, like claiming Antifa is secretly controlled by the Democrats and used to enforce their dreams for a communist utopia. They’re almost as bad as Turning Point USA, another PAC built on the same model, but with double the cringe. ', "> actually it's not funny, it's FASCIST.\n\nActually it's literally capitalism.\n\nA private company doing private company things.\n\nStop throwing around vague terms", "The problem wasn't that PragerU's *ads* were removed, but that their *videos* were removed.", 'Did you not take your meds today, man?  ', 'I thought the videos point was that "in the past" the Democratic party was racist?', 'Umm, they were.  With very few exceptions they were responsible for slavery, Jim Crow, fighting against anti lynching laws, fighting against the civil rights movement, the KKK.  Need I say more?\n\nBefore anyone tries to bring up LBJ, do a little research on him.  He was very outspoken in that despite bullying his party to accept civil rights and Thurgood Marshall he believed non whites were definitively inferior to whites.  Also he a proud member of the KKK.', 'You just described the entire current higher education system in the US. Much of what is taught as "fact" on college campuses is not.', 'In the trump era you and every one else can take your “values” and shove them', 'I think the lion\'s share of young, internet savvy, social media users would agree with you regarding censorship. The world feels smaller and more interconnected for young folks around the world than any previous generation anywhere ever, and that comes with a message of tolerance and common ground for people we don\'t understand, and will never meet. \nIt\'s not surprising then that many see anything not explicitly labeled progressive as such as being regressive. American exceptionalism was never really a thing; we know that now. The "good old days" included blatant racism, sexism, and discrimination; we know that now also. Many people who would have been straight up murdered for what they look like, or sound like are now free to walk the streets without (as much) fear of that, so yeah as a zeitgeist, dictating Morals that are inextricably linked with hatred and death is very much not the norm anymore.\nYou lost the momentum; your chance to connect with something or someone you might feel threatened by, whom you actually aren\'t in any danger of by any stretch of the imagination, the moment you said out loud that you wish the kids these days felt the way that you were brought up to feel. Step outside of your comfort zone friend, it\'s what Jesus reportedly used to do on the regular', 'That video outlines that the Civil War was about slavery. \n\nhttps://youtu.be/pcy7qV-BGF4', 'Well they have a video now saying the 3/5 compromise was anti-slavery.  I’m not going to waste the brain cells to watch it lol.', "I don't think they're a monolith.", 'Which is barely more reputable than evergreen', 'This attitude in the past would have meant that most of the shit you take for granted today would never have come about.', '> Any political view or opinion that goes against scientific evidence should be removed.\n\nLiterally the [Nazi argument against multiculturalism](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientific_racism)', 'are you sure you want to set that precedent? Using the logic that "Opinions that go against scientific evidence should be removed" means that religion could also be an easy target. Do you understand how that could be an issue?', 'So anything promoting there being more than 2 genders or anything calling a baby just a clump of cells should be removed?', 'Maybe try watching some of their videos, they bring on professors and experts in many fields, and present a lot of good information. Don’t discard them just because you disagree.', 'Seriously, holy fuck.  "Nazis aren\'t bad, the real enemy is commies" \nhttps://youtu.be/nUGkKKAogDs\n\n"The civil war was about states rights, and the north hates freedom". https://youtu.be/pcy7qV-BGF4\n\n"The Southern Strategy don\'t real". https://youtu.be/UiprVX4os2Y\n\n"Vietnam was amazing, and we won" https://youtu.be/7hqYGHZCJwk\n\nEdit: sources added, but I\'m sure it\'s not going to change the PragerU believers... because downvote the truth, it hurts feelings.', "It's a lie to question things now? All hail the one true way then.", 'Watch it with your hate speech', '“Anything I disagree with deserves to go!” \n\nI hope the left runs on this premise going forward. Please, do it. It makes it that much harder for a democratic candidate to win. ', 'Facebook is the modern day AOL, spread the word.', 'Not related to the story, but to the phrase "tow the line"  TIL that "tow the line" is an eggcorn for "Toe the line".', "I agree with you, it is ethically wrong to censor people and impose double standards on your private platform becuase you don't like someone or how they think but legally they have every right to. \n\nHonestly all those disenfranchised people should move onto another platform or make their own site where they control it. They can choose to make it free speech or do the same thing becuase it isn't a public space. ", 'A reminder that their terms of use allows for selling your personal data to Russia and anyone else who is willing to pay for it.', 'Missed the point', 'They have total power over their own product.\n\nThey can\'t claim to "bring the world closer together" by censoring half of it.\n', "They should I am calling out their hypocrisy. They could ban Donald Trump if they want to and a bunch of right wing people can make right wing Facebook or Twitter.\n\nI can't stand how these companies want to play this pro free speech card then censor people and allow other objectable content that is on the opposite spectrum.", 'By that logic Net Neutrality is bad because it limits the power of ISPs over their own products. There is a good reason to limit the power of corporations who have an increasing monopoly over the main avenues of public debate and discussion.', "I prefer to use open platforms. I'm a consumer expressing a preference. There's nothing wrong with that. ", "I think the importance is to be vigilant for cases of censorship, to be watchful and catch them early.  The common theory is that if we allow anybody to censor in small amounts they could censor a little more and a little more until we have no freedoms.  Like a lobster in a boiling pot.  \n\nThat's the theory at least. i'm of similar opinion to you.", 'I think it is ironic that companies like Twitter and Facebook want to promote themselves as as platforms of "free speech" but have a double standard in what they allow. That is the difference really.', 'They can, but that doesn’t make it right, and Fox is obviously biased, Facebook and Twitter act like they’re not', "I am disagreeing with that as I have said in other replies, just that it isn't ethical. ", "They sort of do. Either they have an open, public forum or they're making themselves responsible for the content. If its the latter, they expose themselves legally. Like if a kid kills themself due to facebook bullying, the family currently isnt able to sue facebook for allowing that content. If facebook is going to start claiming responsibilty for all the content on their site, they may open themselves up to unintended legal consequences.", "So you're saying they're a private company based in a country that's long committed to Democracy and Free speech, but they're against those principles, because they can be. They should just admit that. ", "Has Trump used his power to actually censor any media outlets or alter their work? I wouldn't tolerate it or support that. \nBut really thiss has nothing to do with Trump anyway, censoring information has been a problem since history began and all political alignments do it. ", "Even the power hitters like Shapiro and Peterson back climate change denial so I would say so. I'm not familiar with PragarU, but most political stuff the makes the rounds on social media is filled with misinformation", 'For the American Right, fringe is the new mainstream.', 'I guess that depends on what words mean. Neither Prager U nor the scientists that have spoken on the subject as guests of Prager U deny that climate is changing. So the short answer is that your premise that Prager U denies that the climate is changing is false. \n\nScientists all seem to agree that CO2 is a green house gas, without which life on Earth would not exist, and adding it to the atmosphere should lead to some warming (some of these scientists are called climate change deniers, again suggesting that to some words do not have meaning). \n\nIn the last 200 years, the concentration of CO2 has risen steadily, AND the global temperature has gone up about 1 degree Celsius. Still no disagreement amongst the scientists. \n\nNow where the "denying" comes in. There are lots of variables in the climate models, and thus far the models have proven not particularly accurate. Nonetheless, the IPCC has determined that "we" should do something about carbon emissions. Those who note that science has not yet determined what (if anything) we can do to stop climate change (such hubris) are labeled "climate change deniers." \n\nEven the IPCC has stated pretty clearly that the long term prediction of climate states is not possible (yet they are not climate change deniers...). They seem to understand that climate is quite complex, predictions are pretty difficult, and CO2 is certainly not the foremost predictor of changes in global temperature. Yet, the IPCC is very comfortable with the wealthy countries sending money to the poor countries (think the average Joe sees that money, or just the altruistic leaders?), all while telling the people in the poor countries "too bad, you can\'t use cheap and plentiful fossil fuel to pull yourselves out of poverty because, well, climate change."\n\nThus, the premise that human activity is the primary source of climate change is a theory which has many adherents, but certainly has not been demonstrated by science. If the weather folks can\'t get the rain forecast for tomorrow at my house correct, why on earth would I believe that they can tell me what the global temperature will be in 50 years with ANY degree of certainty?', 'Science denial should never be granted the legitimacy of a mainstream opinion, no matter how popular it is.', "That's been mainstream for 20 years.", 'yes, its the basic Republican platform ', "Ummm....last I heard they weren't doing that. Just questioning if Carbon Taxes and offset markets were anything but a slimy way to make money off climate change. Which isn't climate change denial. ", 'its a moot point. electric vehicles are better in everyway and so are renwables...theyve won, but we still have 10-20 years down ramp for oil and renewables still have a scaling problems....the fight is over, go home........trump is getting while the getting is good to boost the economy, not trying to live forever on oil and coal....thats the stance of the right...', 'Indeed. If conservatives want to feed this kind of disinformation to their base, they can build their own platform. \n\nCall it CrackR or NBred or something. ', 'The definition of “masculinity” in the modern space is something that is legitimately pondered by many people regardless of political affiliation.  ', 'You just described the modern conservative base.  It\'s not your casual 90\'s Rush Limbaugh "global warming is a liberal hoax" anymore, they took a hard, hard turn into crazytown over the past decade or so.', "That's what conservatives are, they are a threat to the continued existence of the human race. The Republican Party is without a doubt the most dangerous organization in human history, they need to be destroyed.", "If you don't recognize that as satire right away (from someone who does fake interviews as satire no less) I don't know what to tell you.", 'So if anybody considers other peoples political content propaganda it should be banned, or are you sole arbiter? ', 'The scientific quality of their videos are higher than the quality of many left leaning channels that are not banned. So if you want to ban pseudoscience you have to ban some of the most popular channels.', 'PragerU also tries to brainwash you into liking (or rather, hating) certain forms of art.  Like they literally bought youtube ad time to show their entire video hoping someone just has it on the background to be brainwashed.', '>PragerU is also full of shit\n\nI just call it RacistU.\n\nthe channel tries to hide its racism.', 'Your point?', 'Exactly. Mainstream conservative.', 'Wilkes brothers', "I think you are mistaken. Conservatives don't want bias stuff to be removed. They want all opinions to be expressed. ", '>  I like how Conservatives can be called "mainstream" when they don\'t lynch people in the streets.\n\nThey haven\'t progressed to "Professor Bikelock" level yet.', 'That they should probably do a massive review of their censorship policy.', 'That they got caught and are trying to save face?', 'Nothing the right wingers are willing to hear.', "The conservative downvoting squad isn't really disproving you with their downvote smashing either.", 'how can I become a better human being ?', 'Bad division troll', '> If this was a functional country the military would have arrested the GOP\n\nWell that would be a coup.', 'Not to mention the massive amount of logical fallacies', 'The facts they site are true. But some conclusions they reach based on these facts are stretching it. Just like on the left leaning media Youtube channels.', "If you use multiple sources with the same bias it doesn't do you any good. Especially when one side is actively trying to silence sources with opposing viewpoints. ", "Statistics show that? What statistics? Also, many left leaning news sources are obnoxious for any kind of viewer. I can't even watch CNN anymore because of how biased they are.", 'Oh statistics show? Then you have a link to the article? Also does it show that the left is more likely to watch conservative viewpoints? Such as Fox News or this channel? Maybe the reason the right uses less sources, is cause most of the media has a far left bias.', 'Ahhh so you\'re for corporate rights then? Lol, you\'re such a hypocrite you cannot keep your stories straight. \n\nConservatives believe in the CONSTITUTION, which includes FREE SPEECH, which Democrat FASCISTS hate.  They make up bull shit like "hate speech" to silence debate. ALL SPEECH IS FREE SPEECH.\n\nWhen a platform like Google is a monopoly and becomes necessary for use, they inevitably lose rights. Utilities, transportation, communications, etc. You\'ll learn this when you become an adult, little millennial baby.', 'ALL MEDIA is often misleading and false. Welcome to reality.', 'Projection at its finest here, folks! Not saying conservative msm is any better but just lol at this comment. ', 'WHAT UTTER BULLSHIT. So you\'re saying the "liberal" media doesn\'t constantly lie also? It\'s all about ratings and money.  They have been caught in many lies, on both sides of the aisle. The fact that you think it\'s only one side shows you are completely out of touch with reality.\n\nYou probably actually think Rachel Maddow is a journalist and will quote her as a source....LAUGHABLE. She is billed as an "entertainment" show and will admit this if asked. It is NOT FACT. Her polar opposite is Tucker Carlson. There are people who think he is a journalist also. And hence, we have a bunch of brainwashed people.\n\nAnd no, conservatives aren\'t "CRUEL." You are just a soft, weak baby who has been coddled too much. You live in a world of unicorns and rainbows, and love socialism and similar systems because you are a lazy loser who cannot compete in the marketplace. \n', 'Ya, like that Bernie bro, Hilary voting liberal activist that got his head smashed for carrying an American flag in Oregon tho other day. Oh wait, that was liberals beating their own for failing to toe the ideological line.', 'Whoa ok, I thought it was ads. If it was on their own page that’s wack.', 'They intentionally omitted the Southern strategy', 'Yes, and then Southern strategy and the people/perspectives/policies switched parties.\n\nNow the party of Lincoln now associates itself with the KKK and White Supremacists.', 'Nothing like some anti-education populism. \n\n*Yeah, Peer reviewed work is mostly false but that random FB video from PragerU really speaks to my sensibilities! A true bastion of truth and liberty.*', "You can live in heavenly bliss. I'm in reality. Read some of my other post. Maybe you'll get a better understanding where I'm coming from. I had black friends when I was in HS.  All but 1 is in prison. I live near Asheville. The Gayest place East of San Francisco. Lol. Nope dont like my kids exposed to free range parenting, Beggars, Drunks, Purple haired unicorn chasers, People with animal tails hanging out there pants, The whole scene breeds irresponsibility and carelessness. You can embrace this madness or get a backbone and stand up for a better world for your kids to live in. You do you. Don't hide behind me when shtf. ", 'I was completely wrong, and my comment has been edited.', "Yeah, it stopped slave states from having more representatives from their slave populations that couldn't vote.  It was only for the purpose of the census and not any statement of their value as people.", 'https://youtu.be/pcy7qV-BGF4\n\nNo', "No but when you host stuff that makes the outrageous  claims like the Civil War wasn't primarily about slavery, then it makes sense you are painted with that brush.\n\n", '>the\xa0pseudoscientific\xa0belief that empirical evidence exists to support or justify\xa0racism\n\nLiterally not close to what your citation says', 'Found the guy that doesn’t understand science ^', 'Gender is a social construct, not a scientific one', "They're climate change deniers who try to downplay the role of slavery in the Civil War.  They lie.  A lot.", 'You could have just written "I\'ve never watched a PragerU video"', 'r/badhistory has shit on like 5 of their videos', 'There’s no true one way. Prageru is just full of outright lies. Like climate control denial.', "Hmm... I'm beginning to rethink my comment. ", "PragerU the same people who put out a video saying the US technically won the Vietnam war, if wasn't for all those hippies.", "It's not ethically wrong. It's THEIR platform, who should be in charge of it, if not them??", "They can when that content is actively harming public discourse and antagonistic.  Removing that from public consumption is like taking garbage to a landfill; if you don't do it, people will start getting ill.", "They can say that. It's marketing. ", "I thought it was about shaping narratives? Why didn't you just say it was about hypocrisy ", "That was one of the points made in favor of the repeal wasn't it?", "Yea it's like the idea of saying they shouldnt be allowed to remove any content is stupid ", "It's a website man. ", 'Dude they are in the business of making money, nothing else. I don\'t get why people are suddenly taking flowery statements from gigantic corporations seriously. \n\nDo you really think facebook is in the business of "bringing people closer together?" Or whatever the fuck they say? No. Obviously that\'s bullshit. Their entire business is harvesting your data and selling it to everybody. If they ever claimed to care about free speech then you\'re an idiot for believing them.\n\nThis is just more conservative victim complex. Like the guy who was crying that twitter was censoring him when really he had his settings set up to hide that content. You guys are a joke.', 'Do you not remember the phrase “fair and balanced”? Because that certainly sounds like “acts like they’re not biased”. ', 'What? No. Look at Reddit. EVERY sub is subjectively moderated (CENSORED) by a bunch of volunteer desk jockeys.  Why is Facebook held to some arbitrary altruistic standard?', 'Some would say that he has tried to censor media that is critical of him. He (or his administration) [has had reporters](http://fortune.com/2017/02/25/press-exclusion-trump-russia/)^(1) [removed from press conferences](https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/onpolitics/2018/07/25/cnn-reporter-kaitlan-collins-banned-white-house-press-conference/838576002/)^(2).', 'Ah, the weight of history... \n', 'say one thing against trump in T_d and you will be banned instantly ...', "This is Zuckerberg's Reddit account.", "I know Shapiro isn't actually a denialist; what he questions is the affect that humans are having on the changing climate.\n\nEDIT: Apparently people are such morons that they lost the ability to understand that this is Shapiro's views on the subject. I actually agree with you guys for the most part, but fuck me you are some of the most toxic animals I've encountered in a while.", 'Source on Peterson being a climate change denier?', "You're mischaracterizing Shapiro's view on climate change. He is generally on board regarding the existence of climate change but is skeptical about implications and disagrees with proposed solutions that involve crippling the economy. ", "You just listed two major promoters of propaganda and fake news so I'm waiting to see where anyone can prove pragerU is any different. They spread misinformation deliberately.", 'Shapiro, Petersen and Prager are not mainstream.  Shapiro in particular is alt-right. ', 'And this should have about 1000 up votes . . . alas I can only give one.\n\nReasoned, articulate, non reactionary, no name calling and lots of facts.', 'Thank you, finally a decent comment on this thread. It has the facts summarized, the general thoughts on both and its straight up just information.', 'link to it?', 'Is that part of the democrat party platform?\n\nDo democrats put critical gender theorists in charge of the healthcare committee?\n\nDo democrats put critical gender theorists in charge of HHS or the department of education?\n\nBoth climate change denial and critical gender stuff are fringe ideas.  But only one of them is treated as gospel by a major political party.', "Was this a video asking how to define it?\n\nBecause it looked like a video of somebody passing out cherry picked propaganda that conflated being a man with toxic masculinity and blamed it for war.  \n\nThere is a great conversation to be had about defining masculinity and giving men healthy outlets, this wasn't that.", "is the video that was taken down for a short bit was fear mongering that men aren't masculine enough.  \n\nThe persons argument was that PragerU is a mainstream conservative source.\n\nSee how that works?\n\nNow if you can point me to a video where people are saying that progressive men don't know which bathroom to use and someone else is arguing that's a mainstream progressive viewpoint you have a point there.", "The right isn't anymore anti-science, anti-education and pro conspiracy than the left is made up of antifa. And if people keep portraying conservatives as uneducated fuckwads your going to keep drawing a bigger line in the sand that's harder to cross. Or sympathize with people on the other side. ", 'they do recognize it but they refuse to accept it as satire because warping reality is convenient and a small price to pay for justifying your fundamentalism. ', "I didn't watch it noted I watch this video, I was just googling what the person behind the video was about.\n\n\nIf your claim to fame, and that was the highest thing on Google, is a fake video you can understand why Facebook questioned it.\n\n\nAnd the idea that a person behind a fake video is Mainstream conservatism it's a little disturbing.", 'Ill consider client change denial to be a pretty good line in the sand.  PragerU is full climate change denial', 'Prager U hates art. They bought a YouTube ad so it pretty much proves it... \n\nI guess when you got proof like that we would be craaaaazy not to believe you.', "It's not a journalistic news organization, it's a conservative propaganda machine.", "Hahahaha, then why is it illegal to be an atheist in Alabama? Conservatives don't give ten shits about all opinions. They only care about their own.", "No they want their opinions expressed and couldn't give a fuck about anyone else's.", 'Yes, because Liberals had to learn how to enslaved other races and murder people on the streets. Had to learn by example.', 'How could they have possibly thought they wouldn\'t get "caught"? Do you know how many viewers those videos get?\n\nIt\'s an overbearing algorithm, not some political conspiracy.', 'Do you have proof they were lying?', 'Yeah. This sub is full of conservative down vote squads. ', 'Exactly, conservatives keep censoring the EPA! ', "Why do CONSERVATIVES always capitalise RANDOM words in their PARAGRAPHS?\n\nI feel like you're a bot using some shitty algorithm to highlight associative words", 'No, it varies. But my point still stands', 'lol, facebook is "necessary" now? \n\nseriously though I don\'t really give a shit, pragerU is stupid and so is facebook.', 'This will make an excellent copypasta', 'You just made my point for me. ', "anarchists looking for a fight \n\nfaux patriotism is a typical signal of fascists; they unfortunately misread real patriotism as racism/imperialism, and antifa/anarchists don't take kindly to those things\n\non twitter, you can pick out the fascists with about 90% accuracy by American flags emoji in their handles. 10% are people trying to reclaim it, and I see them get a moment of disdain from time to time before folks realize they aren't scum\n\n", 'The article wasn\'t very clear; the [BBC](https://www.bbc.com/news/technology-45247302) has more information.\n\n> On Thursday, PragerU complained that Facebook had removed two of its videos and prevented more than a dozen subsequent posts appearing in its followers\' news feeds.  One of the blocked videos was titled Where Are the Moderate Muslims? It contained the claim that "at this time in history, the Muslim world is dominated by bad ideas and bad beliefs".  The other was titled Make Men Masculine Again. It suggested that males should harness aggressive and violent urges rather than trying to eliminate them.\n\nI agree that people shouldn\'t be subjected to ads they dislike, but the prospect of Facebook becoming an ideological censor is scary.', 'I never ceased to be amazed at how well the great switch is believed.  Other than one person, no one switched parties.  If you can believe that life long racists suddenly became non racists and life long humanists became racists all at one then I have a bridge to sell you.  \n\nThe only switch that I can see is that Democrats realized that being outwardly racist was a losing strategy and changed their rhetoric.  Nowadays the racism is far more subtle.', 'is that what you think I said? tell me, is that an example of someone presenting opinion as fact? If you think I said any of that, I would hope you are not employed in education. ', 'As did I.', "> outrageous claims like the Civil War wasn't primarily about slavery\n\nPragerU says that it was about slavery though", "> No\n\nThanks for being honest enough to concede that point.\n\n> but when you host stuff that makes the outrageous claims like the Civil War wasn't primarily about slavery, then it makes sense you are painted with that brush.\n\nNot really, when you host content from a diverse group of contributors.", 'Wait, did you mean claims the civil war wasnt about slavery? Because claiming that the war was about slavery isnt outragious, its fact.', 'I didn\'t misunderstand. A lot of shit historically was "science" that was disproven or disproven after politics changed.', 'yes, we call it pseudoscientific now in hindsight yet your principle was still the one applied at the time.', '> There is zero evidence for anything supernatural.\n\nthis guy is sharp.', 'But the multiple genders thing is a social concept not actual science.', 'The idea that "gender is a social construct" is a social construct.', 'The civil war was a lot more than slavery mate.', "I'd be willing to bet he didn't actually watch any of the videos. ", "It is not ethically wrong to treat people with a double standard because you disagree with their views or something else about then? \n\nThey can do whatever they want but that doesn't make it right ethical. What is legal and what is ethical are 2 different things. ", 'Becuase it can be both. Stories get censored for political reasons and some of these companies ban people for holding certain views. ', 'That is a gross simplification of what YouTube has become, it is the most popular video sharing site used by billions of people to share ideas and videos.', "Well obviously they want to make money but if they aren't truthful we can  call them out on it. ", 'So because the words sound similar they must be synonymous?', 'Im talking about this: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Section_230_of_the_Communications_Decency_Act\n\nIf facebook (or reddit) crosses the line from publisher to content controller, they may overstep this law and be potentially liable. Ive also seen republicans threaten to change this law due to tech companies unfair political censorship ', 'That isn’t censoring or altering', 'Yeah the church has censored people for hundreds of years as well have corrupt government and affluent people. Harder to censored the internet unless you can get everyone on a few platforms only, but never completely possible. ', 'Same thing with saying pro gun stuff in r/gunsarecool. It is their private place to hang out in, they make the rules so long as the admins agree.', "That's still denial.  He's denying that humans are responsible.", 'Shapiro mostly just questions the extent to which climate change is occurring. He never says it doesn’t exist and that humans are not responsible. He just asks to what extent are humans are speeding up the process and never seems to get a direct answer.', 'And in terms of environmental policy, how is one of those views any different from the other?', "> I know Shapiro isn't actually a denialist; what he questions is the affect that humans are having on the changing climate.\n\nJesus Christ, but Shapiro supporters are disingenuous douches.  The fact is that he's actively trying to prevent anything positive from being done about it, while simultaneously encouraging his legion of pea-brained sheep to believe that climate change isn't an issue.", 'So he’s still an idiot ', 'Why are they toxic they just said that Shapiro denies climate change', "Deny it's happening.\n\nWhen proof becomes too much...\n\nDeny it is caused by man.\n\nWhen proof becomes too much...\n\nDeny there is anything people can do about it without crippling the economy.\n\nWhen people point out how 'green' energy has helped the economy in number of places \n\nChange the subject and pretend it is a black or white issue where anything to help the environment means is financial ruin.", "> Apparently people are such morons that they lost the ability to understand that this is Shapiro's views on the subject.\n\nApparently you're such a moron that you don't get that that *is* climate change denialism. ", "Who got you so mad that you had to call them toxic animals? I went through a bunch of the replies, but there doesn't seem to be anyone responding who fits that bill. \n\nI think you just wanted to be able to call people animals. ", "There's examples of each you can find via Google.", 'So in other words his views get the same results as flat-out denial, only with an added perception of respectability.\n\n', 'How many Jews are considered alt-right?', 'I dont think you understand what the alt right is.', "Yes, but ONLY in a bubble where words don't have actual meaning...", 'Science concerns itself with sex, not gender.', "trump deleted the page on climate change from the white house's website. so can't really do that ", "Really?  Because their man Trump said climate change was a hoax from China, that vaccines cause autism, and that Obama was some kind of Kenyan Muslim founder of ISIS, while whining about the (((deep state))) and Hillary's army of 3-5 million illegal voters.\n\nAnd forget the Q nut jobs, or the people who spent eight years telling me Obama was going to unleash gay Sharia martial law, after taking our guns, putting us in FEMA camps with death panels...after he invades Texas\n", 'Can you show me the Republican president policy on climate change then ', 'Well that is categorical bullshit right there', 'How many of the people who were running for the Republican presidential nomination in 2016 can you confidently say believe that the Earth is older than 6000 years?', 'And SNL is what exactly? At least be consistent. ', "So you're commenting on the content of a video you didn't even bother to watch?\n\nWhy?", 'As if Prager U makes flat earth or homeopathy videos. K', "If being wrong or stupid qualifies a ban from participation in public forums, do you think someone would choose to ban you? It's a private company, they can do it, but it absolutely goes against the free principals of democracy. They should accept that.", '> If it goes against science and spins a narrative of lies, its bullshit and should be placed in the trashcan of ideas.\n> Climate change denial. Flat Earth. Antivaxers. Spiritual Healing. Homeopathy.\n\nSocialism. \n\nIs Facebook taking down all socialism videos?', 'You forgot gun control. ', 'So they should remove dailykos videos as well then?', 'Should political organizations on the left be censored in the same way?', 'Why does that matter when it comes to whether Facebook should have taken them down?  Are political opinions not allowed on Facebook?', '>Yes, because Liberals had to learn how to enslaved other races and murder people on the streets. Had to learn by example.\n\nI don\'t know about "Liberals", but Democrats are wanting to learn this. Obama\'s Libya now has slave auctions and street murders endorsed by Hillary Clinton "we came, we saw, he died" referring to Gadafi being tortured and murdered on the street by a mob.\n\nAlso, Hillary Clinton\'s top advisor has direct family with top level Sharia law advocates. Sharia law is a series of laws and regulations that make slaves of women, by reducing what they can do compared to men. These (Sharia) policies were started in the 6th century under mohammad and continued even into the 19th century:\n\n>Under the Caliphate, concubinage, as a means of controlling women, accomplished three social aims. First, it \nconcentrated women in the hands of the wealthy and powerful. \nSecond, it increased the size of aristocratic and mercantile households as children were born to these women. \nThird, it helped consolidate the dominant culture of caliphate society. \nWomen were brought into the caliphate from outside, forced to conform to urban, \nMuslim social norms, and contributed their children to the next generation of the commercial and political elite. \nBritish policy accepted the patriarchal structure of this social formation; there were no reasons apparent to colonial officials \nwhy any other policy should be adopted. \nIn so doing, concubinage and the subordination of women were incorporated into the colonial system. \n\nhttp://www.artsrn.ualberta.ca/amcdouga/Hist494/readings%20oct%2030/lovejoy_concubines.pdf\n\nHillary\'s flirtations with Sharia law should be alarming to all people on the political spectrum (fringe groups aside, such as the Linda Sarsour pro-sharia crowd).\n\n>Four years ago, five congressman sent a letter to the State Department inspector general, charging that Abedin\'s father, mother and brother were associated with the Muslim Brotherhood, which is considered a terrorist organization by several nations, though not the U.S. The letter cited "a personal intervention by Secretary Clinton that allowed a prominent Muslim Brotherhood leader, Tariq Ramadan, to enter the United States — overturning a policy of the previous administration that precluded him from doing so."\n\nhttps://www.investors.com/politics/commentary/is-america-ready-for-hillary-clintons-shariah-advisor-in-the-white-house/\n\n>Huma\'s mother, Saleha Abedin, also has an interesting history. She was editor-in-chief of the Journal of Muslim Minority Affairs, a Shariah law periodical, from 1995 to 2008. Paul Sperry, a former IBD bureau chief, reported last month in the New York Post that Huma worked "for her mother\'s journal through 2008. She is listed as \'assistant editor\' on the masthead of the 2002 issue in which her mother suggested the U.S. was doomed to be attacked on 9/11 because of \'sanctions\' it leveled against Iraq and other \'injustices\' allegedly heaped on the Muslim world."\n\n>Saleha Abedin "sits on the Presidency Staff Council of the International Islamic Council for Da\'wa and Relief, a group that is chaired by the leader of the Muslim Brotherhood, Sheikh Yusuf al-Qaradawi."\n\n>Huma\'s father had his own Muslim Brotherhood connection, says former federal prosecutor Andrew McCarthy. And it wasn\'t tenuous.\n\n>"There is persuasive evidence," he wrote in 2012 in PJ Media, "that her father was a member of the Brotherhood."\n\nWhat\'s alarming, is that both major parties court Saudi Arabia. Republicans and Democrats sell arms to SA, and support Sharia law abroad, continuing the colonial practice of not wanting to get involved if there may be political or (significant) military backlash.\n', "I'll believe they're acting evenhandedly when this happens to some left leaning propaganda outlet.", 'Seems odd that an overbearing algorithm would kick off videos with so many viewers.\n\nIt\'s not really a political "conspiracy". Most social media is left leaning and is open about it. No shame in them pushing that agenda if that\'s what they believe.', 'Everyone knows reddit is dominated by the conservatives. Amirite?', 'You mean Russian bots', 'Liberal media is often misleading and false. It varies. But my point still stands. ', '> the prospect of Facebook becoming an ideological censor is scary.\n\nCompletely agree.\n\nEdit: *Within reason.* If it’s racism and/or violence or terrorism? Cmon use your heads here.', 'You are really saying you think it is wrong that a private company bans racism and sexism?', 'How did you find this comment 2 minutes ago and not see I edited my first comment hours ago?', ">Not really, when you host content from a diverse group of contributors.\n\nIt is hosted by prager, which has a political goal.  You can't really argue they host it but don't support it.\n\n", 'Sorry, voice to text.\n\nIt was about states rights.,.to own slaves.\n\nIt was about limiting federal power...to infringe upon slavery.\n\nIt was about economic power...for the rich people who owned slaves.\n\n\nIt was about political power...of white people to own slaves and use slaves to count towards the states populations\n\nEtc', "Applied with pseudoscience. It's not like nobody knew they weren't following the scientific method at the time. \n\nThe line between pseudoscience and science is empirically identifiable, by definition.", 'That’s because gender is a social construct, not a scientific one. You’re confusing sex with gender. ', "No, it really was.  Read every state's articles of secession.  Slavery is why they left.  Read the Confederate vice-president's Cornerstone Speech while you're at it.\n\nThe south was not shy about why they left the Union.\n\nTo quote the state of South Carolina:\n\n>The General Government, as the common agent, passed laws to carry into effect these stipulations of the States. For many years these laws were executed. But an increasing hostility on the part of the non-slaveholding States to the institution of slavery, has led to a disregard of their obligations, and the laws of the General Government have ceased to effect the objects of the Constitution.", 'It was about states rights.,.to own slaves.\n\nIt was about limiting federal power...to infringe upon slavery.\n\nIt was about economic power...for the rich people who owned slaves.\n\nIt was about political power...of white people to own slaves and use slaves to count towards the states populations\n\nEtc', "What's the double standard?  If FB leans left, that's their business. ", "Not allowing someone you don't like to use your private property isn't a double standard. ", "Yea and yet I don't see outrage over youtube not hosting hardcore porn. Wonder why that censorship is OK? ", 'Yeah except they aren\'t even censoring conservatives. This is just more crybaby snowflakes who want to feel like they are victims.\n\nSocial Media censoring conservatives is about as real as Starbuck\'s "war on Christmas"\n\nAnd you want to talk about being truthful? That\'s hilarious.', 'I can’t tell if you’re kidding or serious...\n\n“Fair and balanced” was fox news’ tagline. \n\n[“Fair and balanced” is pretty synonymous with “unbiased”.](https://www.google.com/search?q=unbiased+synonyms&rlz=1CDGOYI_enUS738US738&oq=unbiased+synonyms&aqs=chrome..69i57j0l3.4145j1j9&hl=en-US&sourceid=chrome-mobile&ie=UTF-8)', "They don't understand the difference between facts and their own opinion. Seriously problem in America today. ", 'So when the U.S. government banned Nazi propaganda during WW2, was that a problem?', 'Maybe instead of calling it “denialism” we should call it “do-nothingism”', 'Exactly! Thank you!', '> He just asks to what extent are humans are speeding up the process and never seems to get a direct answer.\n\nBullshit. The direct answer is "a whole fucking lot," and guys like him just keep "asking questions."', "> Jesus Christ, but Shapiro supporters are disingenuous douches.\n\nAnd I think you're being a snotty prick. I don't know where you get this superiority complex, but shit like this is why I feel ashamed to have called myself a leftist one point.\n\n> the fact is that he's actively trying to prevent anything positive from being done about it\n\nNo, he's questioning your science. He can explain his views better than I, frankly I actually agree that humans are having an impact. What I question is how we should go about dealing with it.", "*shrug* That's his opinion on it.", "Exactly. They just keep backing up into more bullshit when they're proven scientifically wrong.", 'Gotta try harder than that', "For someone who claims he doesn't care, and is trying to say I get triggered, you sure went out of your way to show everyone how you feel about it. Kinda funny", "'I'm open to the idea that climate change is real and people are causing it, it doesn't mean that I'll ever listen to any of the arguments for it though'.\n\nShapiro in a nutshell. Kind of like how he isn't a racist, but he also thinks Palestinian Arabs have absolutely nothing to offer anybody and should be wiped off the map.", "No, that's not what he said at all.", 'All the ones that are alt-right in their politics. ', "Science concerns itself with both, obviously sex is more concrete.   Science has a lot to say about body dysmorphia, transsexuality, gender expressions, etc.   Current scientific consensus (while certainly not complete) is on the side of the transgender community.  We needn't cede that ground to bigots like Shapiro who love to bastardize it like he bastardizes climate science.   ", 'they mean the same thing:\n\nGender- either the male or female division of a species, especially as differentiated by social and cultural roles and behavior:\nthe feminine gender.\nCompare sex(def 1).', "No you said it was on the republican platform. That would be on the RNC's website somewhere, has nothing to do with the Whitehouse.", ">scientific fact that there are only two genders.\n\nWell first, I think that's a question for anthropologists, and I'm pretty sure if you asked five of them you'd get six answers.\n\nSecond, what you described re transgenders, conforms to the idea that there are only two.  Those people are going from one gender to the other, not creating a third, so that's still two.", "Your ass must be awfully large to fit progressives and millenials in there.\n\nBut thanks for making it clear you weren't interested in actual conversation and just want to pull more stuff out.", "In my personal experience I voted for Trump because I knew he would protect the 2nd amendment, that's about the only thing we agree on. ", 'Assuming you voted for Hillary I am beyond positive that there was a stance that you did not agree with her on.', "How many presidential nominees encompassed all of your personal beliefs or wants on either party side? How about the majority of party beliefs? Have you seen that video footage of Diane Feinstein saying we need to close our borders to undesireable Mexicans? That's the problem with a two party system, it doesn't allow people to support a candidate that they agree with on all aspects.", '> At least be consistent\n\nbe consistent in what ? Are you randomly attributing stances to people ? I thought you said prejudice is bad, at least be consistent.', 'Does me watching it change the fact Facebook had to label her video as satire because the description and title said nothing about it being faked?\n', 'Socialism is a political and economic idea that’s often pretty nebulous.  One that I’m not exactly a fan of.\n\nAre you really comparing that to those well-known examples of pseudoscience?\n\nIs monarchism also pseudoscience?', 'He listed pseudoscience that relates to the hard sciences.\n\nGun policy or lack thereof and it’s effects on society are closer to the social sciences.', 'Yeah, they should, if they\'re producing propaganda that isn\'t backed up by facts like PragerU does.\n\nIt seems you\'re trying to bait into a "I\'m a lefty who just wants to shut down republicans!"\n\nSorry, mate, I lean progressive, but I\'m perfectly fine listening to conservatives (especially when they have civil discussions and debates with democrats/liberals!) if they\'re not part of the stupid machine and want to talk about issues that would actually benefit the American people.', "When did I say they're being evenhanded? It was an error. They reversed it. They'd have to accidentally take down left-wing videos too for you to believe that?\n\nThe persecution complex is unbelievable.", 'This actually was happening to left-leaning individuals and pages on Reddit. Racist right-leaning posts and people were not being removed for a long time, but posts calling them out or deriding them were. It literally was only like a few months ago this was in the news.', "> Seems odd that an overbearing algorithm would kick off videos with so many viewers.\n\nDoes it? Why should viewership determine whether or not something violates content policies?\n\n>Most social media is left leaning and is open about it.\n\nThis really isn't true. Enormous tech companies tend to be fond of capitalism.", 'Who said that?', "No, hateful American conservatives. They exist and there's a shitton of them. Not everything bad is a Russian bot", 'That was incredibly lazy and silly', '>\tIt’s ok thought because “they aren’t the government\n\nBut suggest that Comcast should have the same right Facebook does and you’re the enemy of the internet. ', "It depends on the company.  I have no problem with *The Guardian* banning conservative commenters, but I don't think telephone companies should censor users who have long, racist chats over the phone.", 'That may be so that the organization has an overall political goal, but again, who\'s "they" when you\'re referring to what people think? Sure, maybe President Dennis Prager supports and agrees with all the ideas presented in all the videos, but what if CFO Layne Thrasher doesn\'t agree with this particular video? What if contributor Christina Sommers doesn\'t agree? What if contributor Adam Carolla has no opinion either way on the subject? Who exactly are you happily painting with that brush?', 'Ok, cool. I figured it was something like that. It seemed like a typo.\n\nAlso lol at the downvotes from the racists and the idiots who cant handle history.', 'That\'s ridiculous. Literally in the first paragraph of the link I sent you, it\'s stated "**Historically, scientific racist ideas received credence in the scientific community** but are no longer considered scientific." Fn Darwin embraced the idea in his writings.\n\nFurthermore, here we are in 2018 still talking about the pseudoscientific concept of race.', 'no need to call me a douche, I was not being sarcastic. You are indeed sharp, you clearly know the definition of supernatural, bravo for you.', 'That is what I said, sex is determined by your chromosomes but genders are things people make up to define themselves, not based on any science. ', 'Then they should state their bias, not pretend to be neutral ', 'I know you must have a strong argument because of the immediate shift to porn...', 'Everybody knows Fox is biased, and if they’d wanted to say unbiased they’d say it, but they don’t. They’re very obviously catering to conservatives, they know it, we know it, it’s a concise decision. Twitter says little about politics but is pretty involved in them and obviously biased that’s the difference.', 'Everywhere people seem to turn logic off when politics come up, pretty sad really', 'Technically that is probably unconstitutional just like censoring anything else. They probably made an argument they could temporary suspend it during war but I doubt that would have stuck in court after the war.', "Nazi propaganda incited hate and violence against races of people. PragerU  is a political platform pushing it's political views. Those two are not synonymous. I'm not even a fan of PragerU and I can see this, what's wrong with you?", 'He’s just trying to weaken the argument for political purposes. Does he actually have an understanding of what percentage it is based on any evidence, or is he just fueling contrarian doubt?', "It results in the same behavior though. If you think humans have a negligible effect on climate change, you're going to believe that taking no action related to it is responsible. If you believe it's not negligible, you're going to believe in taking action. Ultimately you're saying he's on the fence on whether we should take action or not. But it isn't really a debate, and hasn't been for some time. ", "Which is denying the scientific consensus.  He's a denier.\n\n>Is it 100%? 1%? Something in between?\n\nLikely >100%, ie. it would have been getting colder without human intervention.", 'That\'s doesn\'t sound harsh enough given what they\'re doing.\n\nAll climate change denial is entirely political, not scientific.  They don\'t care what the data say, they just want nothing to be done.  \n\nThat\'s also why the same climate change denier will move their position depending on what they think will be more persuasive.  Just watch some of the more "reasonable" sounding ones bring up how cold it is once winter comes.', 'Climate stupidity would be a good word for it. ', 'Which, as has already been pointed out, gets you the same answer to this question:\n\n>most importantly how we need to react to it.\n\n- it’s not happening \n\n- it’s happening but humans probably don’t have much to do with it \n\n- it’s happening, humans are the cause, and the positives will outweigh the negatives \n\nAll three of those views are contradictory, yet are promoted simultaneously by organizations like the Koch Bros.  Why?', 'Which is denial. Just by another name. \n\nI mean you can say this, "The house isn\'t on fire." or you can say this, "So the house might be on fire, but is it really a problem?"\n\nYou are just trying to deny the entire premise that there is a problem and we need to take concrete steps to meet that problem. ', 'Great skills you have there helping to get information. It seems pretty solid that nobody really has the information on how much we are speeding up climate change. I know we are fucking this world up, the question is how much faster and what can we do in the next few years to have the biggest impact. The thing about it is, we need to do it safely as to not cause major market disruptions or else plenty of people would not be able to survive another recession anytime soon.', 'My point is that both of those ideas - “climate change isn’t real” and “it’s real but human activity probably doesn’t affect it very much” - get you the same results:  lack of substantial action to reduce carbon emissions.  That’s why the same organizations will promote both of those ideas simultaneously, along with the idea that it’s caused by humans but it will beneficial.\n\nIt’s pretty odd that people who hold all three of those views get along so well despite their ideas contradicting each other.', "But you're not entitled to your own facts.   The facts are Climate change is very real, humans are driving it, it's already having major negative impacts across the globe, and it requires major shifts away from fossil fuels and animal-based food production to solve.\n\nAny policy that is not an actual solution to the problem is not a valid policy position to have, it's just rank denialism.   This pretty much excludes the entirety of right wing thought on the matter.  ", '> but shit like this is why I feel ashamed to have called myself a leftist one point.\n\nPeople crippling their ability to live on the Earth because of greed: I sleep\n\nSomeone is mean to me on the internet: REAL SHIT', "> I feel ashamed to have called myself a leftist one point.\n\nYou walked around and said 'I'm a leftist'?\n\n\nBecause it sounds like you were on the left and are now parroting nonsense from the right where you are ok calling democrats vile and anybody to the left 'leftists'.", "https://www.thestranger.com/slog/2018/08/03/30143461/jordan-peterson-pushes-dangerous-myths-about-climate-change\n\nhttps://twitter.com/jordanbpeterson/status/1024870660022124544\n\nhttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1y45-InPHt4\n\nhttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1y45-InPHt4\n\nCome on bro don't be difficult. It took 30 seconds. \n", 'Not just Palestinian Arabs, but all Arabs.  He also lumps Persians into that as well when he talks about Iranians.  ', ">Kind of like how he isn't a racist, but\n\nHe doesn't think racism is a factor in the US.", '"You\'re right, but I don\'t want to do the things you propose."', 'Actually it pretty much is.\n\nIf humans aren’t the main cause of climate change, then why should we bother reducing carbon emissions?\n\nThat’s why the same organizations promote that view and flat-out denial side by side.  ', "They are right not alt-right, there's a difference. ", '> especially as differentiated by social and cultural roles and behavior\n\nDoes that sound like it falls under the purview of biology?', '"Compare sex" would suggest that the words are related, but are not synonyms.\n\nThere is a reason we refer to the sex of an animal in my lab, and it lies in the second clause of the first sentence of that definition.', 'Anthropologists might have a different working definition.', "lmao the head of the party and sitting fucking president doesn't represent the party? come on. Like i really have to fuckign show you that Republicans don't believe in climate change?\n\nhere ya go bud, not much of a platform just articles shitting on clinton and obama  \n\nhttps://www.gop.com/search/?q=climate+change&x=0&y=0", "I see you didn't answer the question. Just chose to talk about my butt?! Lol, your sexual deviance is showing, perv.", '"Trump derangement syndrome" = "being aware of who Trump is and the things he has said and done."', 'Please tell me you can at least see why elected an anti vaxxer, anti science, conspiracy peddling nut job to represent you and lead your party would make people think you want an anti science anti vaxxer conspiracy nut job to lead your party.  ', 'You voted for someone who is clearly a moron, completely unqualified and is a walking conflict of interest because of one issue?  Thanks for that.', 'I can promise you I did not vote for her ', "So now you're trading inconsistency for totalitarianism? Should've stuck with inconsistency.", "Too bad, just don't watch. ", "It is exactly that. You share something and a thread of comments begins. Just because it contains a personal element doesn't mean it isn't a forum.", 'You realize that the "climate change denier" label is simply slapped on ones that agree with the idea that climate change is real but disagree on the cause and/or the remedy. \n\nJust because you label them climate change denier doesn\'t make it true.', 'It relies on dishonest presentation of data to create a false picture then attempts to use it to show correlation. Seems pretty pseudoscientific. ', 'Like gun crime levels?', 'Ahh so if they disagree with your views, now you get the problem. ', "ITT: its propaganda if I don't like it, merely political opinions if I do", "So they're not being evenhanded?  Thanks, I agree!", "I didn't hear about that. Would be interesting to read about. Have any links to the news reports?", "Viewership wouldn't determine if something violates policy but viewership would warrant a higher level of care. No one cares if some Nazi video with 100 views gets removed but it seems like a bad business practice to rely solely on an algorithm to remove videos from a major news outlet that receives millions of views.\n\nSocial media <> majority of tech companies. ", 'It actually was efficient and thorough. He mocked your stupidity in one post where it took you two to spout it.', 'No one is currently doing that though. And telephones are a utility. They are required to provide the service. They fall under different laws.', 'PragerU as an institution.\n\n\n/and I was way off base with my question.  I was mistaken in them hosting that.  The video from prager said it was about slavery.', "Neither scientists, nor humans existing in 2018 are immune to being racist. \n\nIt doesn't change the fact that it was a pseudoscientific belief, derived from cultural justification more than anything to do with the scientific method.", 'the definition of gender is- having to do with the male or female of the species.\n\nSo the 2 sexes.', "Where do they say they're neutral?", "What? It's free speech, it's content. Why it's that OK to ban but not this crap? ", 'I literally linked you to a synonym page for “unbiased”. There, it says the word “fair”. \n\nIf you can’t put those two together, I can’t help you. You obviously can’t be reasoned with. ', 'So no then?', "So there's a line after all?\n\n", ">It results in the same behavior though.\n\nNo it doesnt. \n\n> If you think humans have a negligible effect on climate change, you're going to believe that taking no action related to it is responsible\n\nNot true. I am about stewardship. I will be a good steward of the environment because its the right thing to do, regardless of effects.\n\n>If you believe it's not negligible, you're going to believe in taking action\n\nOnly if you believe any action will amount to a net gain. In some ways, the damage is done and there is no going back. We can only mitigate damage from here.  \n\n>Ultimately you're saying he's on the fence on whether we should take action or not. \n\nNo Im not and neither is he. He's questioning the impact, which is legitimate. \n\n>But it isn't really a debate\n\nYes it is. The data shows warming, clearly but the scientific community cannot land on one specific plan for the future. ", 'Where are you getting these facts? What is the scientific consensus on the percentage that humans are having vs nature? Please can you cite your source on it, because what I have read nobody has really wanted to provide a number or a rough estimate.', '> All climate change denial is entirely political, not scientific.\n\nThere are people who do not decline climate change (and even admit that humans have caused many of these issues) but still would like to see sources on how much humans have contributed.', 'Summer: "Man, it\'s hot this week!" "See?! Evidence of global warming!"\n\nWinter: "Man, it\'s cold this week!" "WEATHER IS NOT CLIMATE, FOOL!"\n\nI\'m not saying that there\'s not a dual standard of evidence for some conservatives, just that it\'s not something that\'s -unique- to conservatives, by any means.', '> it’s not happening\n> \n> it’s happening but humans probably don’t have much to do with it\n> \n> it’s happening, humans are the cause, and the positives will outweigh the negatives\n\nMy morbid enjoyment is to lay these three views out in front of the climate change deniers I know, and say "These three things are mutually exclusive, can you please tell me which you believe?"\n\nIt\'s amazing how most deniers will jump willy nilly between these 3 views.', '>they will deny that there is a difference between scepticism about a conclusion or narrative, and \'denial\' that a phenomenon exists.\n\nBecause there isn\'t.  As I\'ve said before, climate change denial (or "skepticism") is not scientific in nature.  It is entirely political.\n\nOrganizations that want to do nothing have spent the last 25 years deliberately muddying the waters and funding outright denial and "skepticism" in equal measure.  These "skeptics" will shift back and forth to denial depending on the situation, their audience, and the weather outside, happily taking mutually incompatible sides.\n\nBecause they aren\'t actually skeptics.  Skepticism is about drawing conclusions based on evidence, not endless contrarianism designed to be a delay tactic for the fossil fuel industry.', 'All political zealots seek to END ANY DIALOGUE. Climate change, open borders, the welfare state, coddling of criminals, war on drugs, anti-science nonsense....\n\nThey scream "RACIST! or "DENIER! because they cannot actually engage in intellectual debate.\n\nI mean in California they actually say there are 23 different genders....just utterly fricking STUPID.', 'Wonderful analogy. \n\nIt doesn’t matter whether or not the house is on fire, it matters *what we do next to protect and save the house that we all live in*. ', 'Now, I can\'t claim to be an expert on Shapiro himself, but I was always under the assumption his argument was less about whether climate change was caused by man or not, but more centered on forcing further regulation on American companies would only hurt the American economy and not help actual world wide carbon emissions. That manufacturing will become more expensive / less efficient to do in the US, and thus will move to nations with little to know regulations on emissions. None of the proposed solutions (that I\'ve seen) are going to reduce the carbon emissions from China. And, even if they do start to put policy in place, there are plenty of currently industrializing nations where labor is cheap that have few; Vietnam, for example. \n\nI\'m not saying anyone is wrong in their characterization of Shapiro, as I don\'t follow much of what he says unless it makes headlines / bleeds into MMA discussions (thanks, Joe Rogan...). Just pointing out you can disagree with climate change politics and not actually deny or even disagree with the science. The idea that "we need to do something" differs from "we need to do something now, regardless of ramifications / impact". But, then again, I suppose that isn\'t how we get laws and regulations passed in the US. ', 'Why can’t we disagree on how to solve the problem?', 'I was liberal until they were mean to me for being conservative', '> You were never a leftist. You might have spent some time pretending to be a "liberal" (right wing lite) in a feeble attempt to get laid, but you\'re clearly a piece of shit.\n\nHoly crap, I have seen the worst of the worst here on reddit, but that has to be the most pompest comment I have ever read. WOW.', "> You walked around and said 'I'm a leftist'?\n\nNo, it's how I thought of myself.\n\n>  parroting nonsense from the right\n\nParroting what? If you are able to read what I originally said, all I stated is that that is how Shapiro describes his opinions on the issues. I didn't give an endorsement of it. You're so rabid that you're trying to pick a fight.", "He's a conservative. That's like a lion saying veganism isn't a factor in the feline community.", 'Disagreeing on how to fix the issue is not the same as "flat-out denial". Not even close.', '"yes, its the basic Republican platform"\n\nIs what you said. Don\'t get pissy because you\'re making stuff up and can\'t show where it\'s part of the party platform. It\'s no different than someone saying murdering babies is part of the Democratic platform.', '>Why are you denying scientific fact?\n\nI did not dispute what you wrote above.  Only that anthropologists would likely say that sex and gender overlap but do not eclipse.\n\nFor example, many ancient and medieval societies had a whole class of people that were considered neither male nor female, though it was comprised entirely of people who used to be male, and was mostly involuntary.  Let’s just say I’m glad I live in the modern age.', 'So what terrible deed(s) has he done that justifies the vitriol from the left-wing? ', "At face value yes, but upon deeper analysis I think that's unfair. For any political party.", "The 2nd amendment protects the 1st, which is the most important one. Way to fully encompass my political decisions though, its like you've known me all my life and understand the way I think.", "That's great but it doesn't change my point.", 'You’re missing the point.  Even if you choose not to watch, say, a climate denial propaganda video, others do and share it.  Before you know it a major political party has it in its platform, then when they get into power they put fossil fuel executives in charge of environmental policy.', "That's because those positions lead to the same conclusion as flat out denial - don't do anything about CO2 emissions.\n\n", 'Social sciences are different from the hard sciences in a lot of ways.\n\nOP didn’t “forget” anything - he just limited his post to low-hanging fruit in the territory of the hard sciences.', 'Do you consider the promotion of anti-vaccine propaganda to be just “disagreeing with your views” or something more serious?', "Are you saying that climate change denial isn't propaganda?", 'If I bumped into a Republican on the street because I was distracted, would I have to do the same thing to a Democrat for you to believe it was an accident?', 'https://www.propublica.org/article/facebook-enforcement-hate-speech-rules-mistakes', "No, he resorted to 'I know you are but what am i'. Then took his ball and went home. \n\nSo 'thorough'", 'but you\'re saying that in hindsight. What matters is that it was embraced **at the time** and according to your principle any political view or opinion contradicting scientific racism should\'ve been removed, **at the time**.\n\nThe ptolemaic geocentric system was the cornerstone of astronomic sciences for centuries. **At the time**, it was the best scientific truth we had based on our limited evidence. Copernicus comes around with a different theory, and when Galileo is pushing for it everyone else is literally trying to put in practice **your principle** - *"Any political view or opinion that goes against scientific evidence should be removed."*.\n\nUnless you\'re arrogantly claiming that we finally achieved the ultimate scientific knowledge, we know everything and nothing will ever ever change in terms of our scientific understandings, your principle is extremely flawed and anti-scientific for that matter as it prevents challenging the status quo and skepticism, fundamental principles of science.\n', 'I was talking about the "new" social definition which is what people say what they feel they are. ', "The same place they say they're left or right leaning. Nowhere.\n", 'Did you not read the comment? Because you just repeated yourself. Nice argument.', "It is a problem if you believe in free speech. If they were trying to subvert the us and committing treason they should go to jail. You can't make people following an ideology illegal unless they commit crimes while following it. They can think they are superior all they want but they can never pass any laws or enact changes which infringe on others rights or they will be hailed off in jail and lose in the courts. \nThey are pretty messed up but technically they have a right to freedom of speech which is why I said they would win in court after the war if they were prosecuted solely for pro Nazi material. ", 'There always was. ', 'Let me draw an analogy to ice cream.  We all like ice cream don’t we?  And we all have a favorite flavor.  But to your stomach, it doesn’t matter what flavor you choose - it’s just 500 calories of dairy and sugar.\n\n\nSame thing with those three different positions I listed.  To the environment, it doesn’t matter which of those positions they adopt as the party line - it’s just more CO2 emissions year after year.', 'Right now the Republican strategy is to run out the clock with pointless debate while the world burns. Republicans have historically been hostile to environmentalism, going back to at least "trees cause pollution" Ronald Reagan, who they consider a saint.\n\nIMO Republicans would gladly destroy the ability of this planet to sustain human life, if it meant watching how pissed off environmentalists got while the world irreversably burns.\n\nThis country has a history of hostility to environmentalism and pro-fucking up the environment.\n\nCase in point, when a huge flock of passenger pigeons would fly overhead, Americans on cue would all grab their shotguns and start blasting the flock, regardless of whether they intended to eat the birds as meat or not.\n\nWe use to send trains full of men armed with rifles out on the great plains, to mass slaughter buffaloes and let their carcasses rot for no clear gain to anyone, we damn near made the buffalo go extinct because of American folk heroes like "Buffalo Bill" who bragged about killing something like 5,000 buffaloes.', ">  i'm a Republican that know who they are.\n\nI think you need to work on your English, comrade.", 'They are talking about pushing political agendas, while pushing them (funny how climate change became a political issue vs a social/living issue). I guess it really does not have to be considered a political issue, but rather pushing their own opinions on climate change (which if you are have any questions, in their mind you are a denier). I think it is pretty obvious to anybody with a brain and not trying to push something, we are causing climate change (or atleast at a faster rate than we should be). ', 'It is a terrible analogy. You cannot start fighting the fire while also trying to figure out the cause. You have to fight the fire and figure out the cause afterwards. With climate change, you can work on fighting it while also learning more about it and figuring out how to reverse it or slow it down. In order to know how we reverse or slow it down (granted it has been said the former is not possible) you have to know how much the outside influence (AKA humans) are increasing it.', 'I feel your comment hit the nail on the head. IDK about Shapiro, but for myself I have always wondered how much we as humans are really contributing. I believe I have seen a few headlines, but they always generally vary how much we contribute. Part of a solution is identifying the problem causing the issue, which we have a good general idea on how our actions hurt the earth.', "Shapiro isn't disagreeing on how to solve the problem, he's denying the problem even exists.   \n\nFirst, accept the hard scientific facts as stated above.    Only after that can you propose solutions.   \n\nHonestly, the situation is becoming so dire and the right has done literally nothing but deny the facts for decades, they get to sit down and shut up.  That's the consequence for being dishonest and wasting everyone's time.  Now you don't get a say in the solution.  ", 'Truth hurts, eh.', '>Parroting what? \n\nI explained what, am I wrong?', "They are both pushing narratives about climate change change that range from iffy to false.\n\nHere's some more of Jordan questioning the topic and people disagreeing with him below.\n\nhttps://twitter.com/jordanbpeterson/status/974654624878673921?lang=en\n\nhttps://twitter.com/jordanbpeterson/status/920414051099742208?lang=en\n\nI should add that there are more outrageous examples, Peterson and Shapiro just seem to be two of the more respected figures right now. \n\nMore blatant examples of climate change denial being in the mainstream would involved Tucker Carlson's recurring arguments and the Trump administration slashing the EPA budget.\n\nhttps://www.realclearpolitics.com/video/2017/01/08/tucker_carlson_vs_cal_state_professor_how_do_you_know_98_of_scientists_agree_on_climate_change.html\n\nhttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uCW5xOcF4lM\n\nhttps://www.newsobserver.com/news/politics-government/politics-columns-blogs/under-the-dome/article199690144.html", '>Did you actually watch the prager U video that jordan peterson shared? Because nowhere did it say that climate change isnt happening.\n\nThe video is titled "Climate change: what do scientists say?" and then gives Richard Lindzen seven minutes uninterrupted.  The video describes Lindzen as one of the world\'s leading climatologists.  However, Lindzen is actually very much isolated in his views from the rest of his peers - he\'s on the fringe.  And he uses his free seven minutes to present his views as far more mainstream.\n\n>It says that there are scientists who believe it to hae a substantial effect, and scientists who believe it to have a minimal effect. Both of these statements are true.\n\nThe problem here is that the former is by far the dominant view among scientists by a wide margin and supported by all the available evidence.  The latter is a fringe view, which Lindzen and PragerU are trying to present on an equal footing with the former.  Scientists tend to know their field pretty well, so PragerU could have randomly picked any climate scientist from any institution to give an accurate summary, but they hand picked someone on the fringe who\'s a favorite of the fossil fuel industry.\n\n\nIt\'s kind of like if they had produced a video titled "The Holocaust: What do historians say?" and then given David Irving seven minutes uninterrupted.  It\'s just deceptive.', 'I voted republican for years.\n\nAnd I remember people would be mocked if they openly argued that.\n\nSomehow the argument went from how a big a factor to is it a factor. It is crazy.', 'It is if they’re both used to stall any meaningful action on it.\n\nYou’re not disagreeing on how to fix something if you don’t think it can or should be fixed in the first place.', 'People keep on saying he’s only disagreeing on the solution but then what is his solution(s)?', "For fucks sake man how about you show me all the climate change policies that are on the Republican platform? It doesn't exist ", 'He was implicated in a felony yesterday.', "OK? My point is the Republicans don't belive in climate change ", "Then produce better content to compete. That's what a free exchange of ideas is all about. ", 'Socialism leads to the same conclusion as the denial of the science behind economics. \n\nYour argument is putting a doctor who doesn\'t recommend prescribing anti-biotics when they aren\'t needed in the same bin as someone who says anti-biotics don\'t work, because they lead to the same conclusion : don\'t take anti-biotics for the common cold. \n\nYour argument is completely wrong. It\'s intellectually dishonest to lump together people who say "This isn\'t a problem" with people who say "This is a problem, but I don\'t think this solution will work"\n\nSome people are concerned with income inequality and suggest UBI.\nSome people are concerned with income inequality but think UBI will not work. \nOther people say income inequality isn\'t a problem. \n\nDo you really think it\'s fair to lump these last two groups together because neither one of them wants UBI? ', 'I was including it based on the criteria of it being "a narrative of lies"', 'There is a difference between promoting and not censoring.', "No, I'm saying that Facebook shouldn't be censoring propaganda for mainstream political beliefs.", 'I watched the video, even though I had a good idea of what this "denier" would say. \n\nSo, everyone who disagrees with the root cause and/or action required to correct the current climate change cycle is a denier, according to your label.\n\nWhat those labeled "deniers" actually believe is that climate change is real and happening, they just disagree on the cause and/or the action required to correct it. \n\nIt is ironic that we are so key on ensuring we use speech in a responsible way and not label people, yet we lie and call them deniers. This way we can say they are dumb and propagandists in order to smear and silence them. \n\n', 'Can you link the video that you have a problem with?', "We're already in agreement that they aren't being even handed, so why are we still discussing?", 'I hate to be...ummmm nitpicky. But all I see in the article is Facebook posts. It doesn\'t reference Reddit once. You said left leaning Reddit posts were being censored, did you mean left leaning Facebook posts? \n\n.... Ok, I read that long ass article and it literally doesn\'t describe anything you attribute to it. It is entirely about "offensive language used in posta on Facebook" and why some of them are allowed to stay while others aren\'t. It has ZERO to do with right or left leaning (let alone Reddit posts as you previously stated). \n\nDid you really just make up a story and then link the some unrelated story as your "proof"?', 'You farted on your keyboard and then clicked "post" and are upset that someone mocked your stupidity? \n\nAlso, how did he take his ball. Is Reddit the ball? Did he take Reddit away from us?! That dastardly scourge!!!!', "No, what matters is the difference between science and pseudoscience. You seem to have some difficulty grasping this, in addition to the fact that a ban on anything that goes against scientific evidence has to, by definition allow contrary scientific evidence. \n\nIt just doesn't allow you to say what you feel. This argument against scientism always falls flat on its face because while science is always wrong, it's never as wrong as the opinion of your average voter.", "Right, but that's denying science so I was asking OP if he believed that those types of things should be removed from the internet as well", 'Good, so they can do as they please. ', 'Yeah, you’re definitely not commenting in good faith. \n\nNo point in continuing this conversation. ', 'So yes then?', "This is where I came in.  I'll see myself out now.", "I like nuclear. \nYOU CAN'T HAVE THAT FLAVOR!!", '> We all like ice cream don’t we?\n\nI like Ice cream!', 'To my stomach the flavor does matter, just saying. ', '>>work on fighting it\n\n\nUhhhh have you seen our current EPA?', ">Honestly, the situation is becoming so dire and the right has done literally nothing but deny the facts for decades, they get to sit down and shut up. \n\nI'm sure telling them to sit down and shut up because they're ignorant and you're not will make a great counter-argument. Really persuasive stuff.\n\n>That's the consequence for being dishonest and wasting everyone's time. Now you don't get a say in the solution.\n\nSays who?", 'And you wonder why the debate is at where it’s at?\n\nWhat a productive conversation. ', "Telling OP here that Shapiro's views aren't denying that the climate is changing, rather he's skeptical on the impact people are having on the change. I wasn't suggesting that I *agreed* with him.\n\nOne of the problems we are having is that people are getting sloppy and just attribute the worst motives to everyone on the other side. If both sides only argue in bad faith, then we continue this downward spiral to something much, much worse.", "Not really, the GOP has been going through such vehement turmoil that they have demonized every GOP President and Presidential Candidate that they've put forward the last 18 years.\n\nGW Bush: single handedly screwed up Iraq, mysteriously the GOP Congress under him somehow doesn't share in that blame (even though they authorized it). John McCain, noted P.O.W. but also somehow also a traitor and laughingstock of the GOP. Mitt Romney, the dude who wasn't GOP enough for the GOP despite being an avatar for everything that the GOP loves (successful businessman, faithful Christian ((to the people who considers Mormons Christians)), dedicated family man). And let's not talk about all the various primary Republicans that somehow don't past the Conservative litmus test despite years of dedicated service to the Republican agenda.\n\nSo if you're a Republican you're a demon, but if you're a Conservative you're an angel, unless of course you ever supported legal immigration, in which case you're as bad as Obama. Many years from now, there are going to be documentaries interviewing Republicans and those guys are going to be like 'I didn't know what to do. I had this once stance, years ago, and for some reason I was the devil/savior because of it. Oh and I got in trouble for *not* being a brazen criminal. I'm glad I said fuck it and decided to just hang out with my grandkids and volunteer in my church'.", 'So you don’t mind easily remembered, loaded propaganda sound bites being put on an equal footing with well reasoned and substantiated arguments?\n\nYou know junk food sells better than Broccoli, right? ', 'Germany banned lots of nazi images, but they still have a robust sense of freedom of speech. All I\'m saying here is that removing certain things from the public theater doesn\'t always mean destruction of the free exchange of ideas. It\'s the paradox of tolerance, wherein we as a society recognize that some things may fall under the purview of "freedom of speech" but are actually a net negative.\n\nPersonally, I agree with Germany\'s stance on removing nazi symbols etc. I think this concept can be extended to outright lies and insidious foreign propaganda. ', 'So what do you think of YouTube’s solution of inserting a link to the Wikipedia article on the subject above the video description?', 'It’s a video where PragerU has Richard Lindzen talk about climate change.  However, it presents Lndzen as “one of the world’s leading climatologists” despite the fact that his views are very much isolated among his peers.', "I never claimed that Facebook as a whole is or isn't even-handed politically. I said that *this instance* isn't evidence of bias, because it was a mistake.", 'Yes, I meant Facebook.\n\nI considered them close enough since people were making good faith reports about heinously bigoted comments and were being ignored. I guess left leaning stuff wasn’t being removed, but rather, they were being ignored for honestly reporting vile, sometimes genocidal, right leaning content.', 'Farting on a keyboard would not press any of the keys down, so it would be a blank statement. Just fyi.\n\nEnjoy trolling', 'The difference between science and pseudoscience was simply time in the examples I gave you, and you refuse to acknowledge that.\n\nWhile discredited today, scientific racism and geocentrism were widely embraced by the scientific communities of the past and adhered to all the rigors of science **at the time**. How does your principle play out in those situations ?\n\n', 'No becuase that is subjective like politics and religion. Most of the things people talk about deal in the manner of unquantifianle concepts and opinions. ', 'It’s not denying science. Gender has to do with the outward presentation of gender someone “acting” like the socially accepted definition of a woman or man. \n\nSex is biological. \n\nSo when you say that people are denying science because of gender issues you’re incorrect, they’re defying social constructions not scientific ones. ', 'Depends.  Are said fuel standards likely to reduce the amount of CO2 emitted from sources of transportation in America?\n\nSecond, if the answer to the first question is yes, then is there any effort to implement those standards in a timely manner?', "It matters to your *taste buds*, but once it gets to your stomach it's just dairy and sugar.", 'Well since the original discussion was on Shapiro and not the current administration, not sure that really works.', 'Dude is a straight up whack job.', '> I wasn\'t suggesting that I agreed with him.\n\nI specifically laid what BS you are parroting.\n\nAs for your defense here, it is BS.  He is in the same camp as climate change denialists, he just moved the goal posts a little but the impact on polict is the same, don;t do shit.\n\n>If both sides only argue in bad faith, \n\nCalling him a denialist on global warming in the context of politics isn\'t bad faith.  It may be a lazy shortcut, but as I spelled out the political end result is the same.  Don\'t do shit.\n\n\n>One of the problems we are having is that people are getting sloppy and just attribute the worst motives to everyone \n\nOk, Mr "democrats and progressives have become something vile in this country".\n\n', 'That he may be.  There’s a lot of fringe academics who have held positions for decades.  Doesn’t change the fact that he’s still on the fringe and PragerU is misrepresenting his ideas as mainstream.\n\n> I agree that they cherry picked this guy, but they have a conservative bias.\n\nThat’s not “Conservative” though.  It’s just counterfactual.  Don’t rebrand dishonesty as an opinion.\n\nIt’s a valid comparison.  On one side of each you have the entire body of research, evidence and experts.  On the other side you have dishonest talking points and bad-faith arguments meant to serve a nefarious agenda.\n', "Can't wait ", "Correct, I don't mind that people watch political videos I disagree with, or I believe to be wrong. Stop being the thought police. Just produce better content and advertise it to the people you wish to reach. ", 'And thank goodness in America people are allowed to eat as much junk food as they like. just as you are free to eat anything you like. worry about controlling your own life and not others', "Germany tried to put an artist in jail for insulting Recep Tayyip Erdogan, the brutal dictator of another country. Germany can comfort itself with whatever lies it wants about valuing free speech, but the fact is they don't. ", 'Can you link it?', 'Yes, all mistakes are completely random.  ', 'You need to work on your sphincter control my friend, they shouldn\'t just seep out like an untied balloon all day.\n\nI like how you dropped the idiotic "he took his ball" analogy. Glad I could help you see the light.', "One way to drastically cut down on emissions would be to mandate all new 18 wheeler tractors with sleeper cabs come equipped with an auxiliary power unit specifically for running the A/C and heater so we dont have to idle a 14.7 liter turbo diesel just to have heat and a/c while us truck drivers try to sleep.\n\nThis would be a simple regulation and a small increase in cost to the tractor, compared to say mandating all semis become electric in the next 3 years or convert to so.e elaborate electric-diesel setup. The machine I'm sleeping in right now while I type this cost $175,000 new with all the sensors and advanced features like active cruise control, collision warning and such. $5,000 for an APU isnt a whole lot extra, and the fuel savings would get it to pay for itself in a short period of time, especially with states like California charging g $4 a gallon for diesel.\n\n\nIdeally we get about 1,200 miles per tank, I forget how much our tanks hold but 175 gallons isn't a bad guess. We idle the fuck out of the engine just to keep the a/c running when we need to sleep or park an extended period of time, then we only get 1,000 miles out of 175 gallons of fuel.\n\nAnother idea would be to mandate that all 18 wheelers have aerodynamic hub covers. They dont make a huge difference in fuel mileage for an individual truck, but a fleet or 1000's of trucks combined, the fuel savings and reduced emitting of hydrocarbons in the air would be substantial, and all it is, is a stupid piece of plastic that fits over the wheels so that the highway speed air travels around the hub freely, rather than getting caught inside the hub, creating drag and reducing fuel mileage this increasing emissions.", 'No seriously I have reactions to certain flavors. ', '> I specifically laid what BS you are parroting.\n\n[Do you not know what parroting means](https://www.dictionary.com/browse/parroting). Stating what someone else believes isn\'t parroting.\n\n>  He is in the same camp as climate change denialists, he just moved the goal posts a little but the impact on polict is the same, don;t do shit.\n\nWhatever, you obviously are lumping everyone into the same category. While you are technically correct, even you state that it\'s lazy shortcut.\n\n> Ok, Mr "democrats and progressives have become something vile in this country".\n\nI never said that. What I said is that people aggressively attacking me for stating **SOMEONE ELSE\'S OPINION IN CONTEXT TO ANOTHER STATEMENT** is shamefully perpetuating the hostilities that the right and left have for each other. I don\'t consider myself left anymore after the toxic attitudes that have emerged.', 'The truth is, regardless of whether he is guilty or not, he will get off scot-free, just like EVERY OTHER POLITICIAN FROM EVERY PARTY IN EVERY COUNTRY.\n\nThat is the problem. NO ONE is accountable at that level. \n\nSo you will be waiting until you die. Welcome to reality.', 'Here’s what YouTube did:  they put a link to the Wikipedia article on climate change above the video’s description.  PragerU wasn’t too happy.', 'The way other people vote directly affects me, though. If propaganda makes them vote against their own and my own interests, then that isn\'t just "their life".\n\nHell, even them eating junk food affects me. They either increase the real cost of the risk pool for insurance or get Medicare/Medicaid to pay for it, which is OUR money. \n\nYour analogy is bad.', 'I was drawing an analogy between food and information.\n\nPropaganda is meant to be simple, and nearly impossible to refute with the same number of syllables.  But it’s still junk that’s detrimental to society.', '/u/ItsTtreasonThen considers that a good thing as well', 'https://www.prageru.com/videos/climate-change-what-do-scientists-say\n\nOn the YouTube page, YouTube put a link to the Wikipedia article on climate change in the description.  PragerU didn’t like that.', 'That should be the default assumption ', '> Stating what someone else believes isn\'t parroting.\n\nI\'m talking about BS like democrats are vile, which is the BS you are parroting.  Which is the BS I spelled out.\n\n>Whatever, you obviously are lumping everyone into the same category. \n\nNo, I\'m lumping people who want to do nothing about the environment even in the face of clear science on how what we are doing is dangerous into one camp.\n\nI\'m calling out sombeody who is asking for "honest conversation" fro spinning yarns and pretending that there is a real difference in political thought between Ben or Jeff Flake.\n\n>I never said that.\n\nLook, anybody somebody calls themselves a "former leftist" alarm bells go off.\n\n99.9% of the time it is either a guy full of shit or a guy who jumps from one ideological extreme to another with no real thought introspection or study.  I was willing to bet you were one.\n\n2 seconds of looking at your comments by controversial showed I was right.\n\nhttps://www.reddit.com/r/worldnews/comments/6fssdl/fired_fbi_director_comey_asked_not_to_be_left/dil5tes/?context=3\n\nYou justified people supporting Trumps repeated and obvious lies because democrats have become vile.  And oddly enough  you are now all over the_donald supporting trump.', "The APA also states that gender dysphoria is not a requirement for being trans. Maybe actually read what a source has to say before you claim they say something. Maybe the comorbidity  is high because people treat trans people like shit and bully and assault them at extremely high rates. I mean seriously the APA says this. Try doing some basic research. If you did basic research you'd find that transition massively increases positive health outcomes, massively lowers suicide rates and increases happiness for trans people. The APA also says this. Isn't that funny how they say the exact opposite of what you want them to say. ", "I meant I can't wait for government class", 'Wtf kinda cowardly ass comment is this? What a pathetic loser you are to put words in my mouth like that. Fuck off', "I don't think anyone should have a video like this removed, and anyone advocating for restricting speech on this basis should watch the video again and pay more attention to the ideology portion.", '> I\'m talking about BS like democrats are vile\n\nI didn\'t say that though. I said liberals are quick to jump on people and attack them. Apparently it\'s tough for you to understand that.\n\n> fro spinning yarns\n\nWhat.\n\n> Look, anybody somebody calls themselves a "former leftist" alarm bells go off.\n\nOk, that doesn\'t change anything however.\n\n> 2 seconds of looking at your comments by controversial showed I was right.\n\nSigh*. No, all you proved is that I once was a heavy leftist that despises the way the Democrats have turned. That\'s not a raving endorsement of Trump is it. What\'s even more funny is that even in that quote you pulled, I stated then that harping on conservatives is not a good path. You actually are proving my point that leftists have nothing more than screeching harpies looking for reasons to be offended.\n\n> You justified people supporting Trumps repeated and obvious lies because democrats have become vile.\n\nNo, actually I outright stated:\n\n> Not let me say this now, I DID NOT vote for Trump. And I don\'t agree with a lot of what he is doing\n\nWhat I was saying was:\n\n> And for the love of god, instead of trying to vilify every damn thing, try and understand WHY conservatives are doing these things. Don\'t try and paint everyone as a racist, ignorant, moron.\n\nDirect quote. Thanks for proving my point for me.\n\n>  And oddly enough you are now all over the_donald supporting trump.\n\nYes, my incredibly decisive posts [about supporting local farmers](https://www.reddit.com/r/The_Donald/comments/8u54cm/support_your_local_farmers_us_farmer_suicide/) or [bringing awareness to the oldest ww2 victim suffering from identity theft.](https://www.reddit.com/r/The_Donald/comments/8uzdfq/112yearold_austin_resident_our_oldest_living/).', '> I didn\'t say that though.\n\nYou did.\n\nI linked it.\n\nYou can\'t be honest with the words directly in front of you, I\'m not wasting my time.\n\nHere is the full quote, not you cherry pickingt lines and lying abotu what everyone can see.\n\n"Not let me say this now, I DID NOT vote for Trump. And I don\'t agree with a lot of what he is doing, **but the Democrats and Progressives have become something vile in this country**. Trump steps on an ant and people flip their shit. Pick your battles people."', "Huh, you're right. Too bad I said that over a year ago in a different context. It's still funny to me that you had to dredge up something from over a year ago because you gave up on the original thing we were talking about.\n\nYou're getting lazy.", '> Huh, you\'re right.\n\nHuh, yet you somehow went to the link quoted the line before and quoted the line after but are now pretending missing the line was a mistake?\n\n\n>It\'s still funny to me that you had to dredge up something from over a year ago\n\nI "dredged" up something that took 5 seconds to find by looking at contraversial posts.\n\n>because you gave up on the original thing\n\nNo, actually you said "shrug, that is his opinion on it" when I spelled out what his stance meant.\n\nhttps://www.reddit.com/r/news/comments/99g74e/facebook_apologizes_for_removing_conservative/e4nuciq/\n\nYOu also said I was techjnically correct when I spelled out how his politics are the same.\n\nhttps://www.reddit.com/r/news/comments/99g74e/facebook_apologizes_for_removing_conservative/e4nvo3y/\n\nThat is also when I called you out for likely running around spewing BS.  Bs like pretending what Ben does is politically any different than denial, and BS like "democrats are vile".  **both things you admitted you did** only after lying about them for a while.\n\n', '> Huh, yet you somehow went to the link quoted the line before and quoted the line after but are now pretending missing the line was a mistake?\n\nNo, because the context of that quote was about leftists being aggressive to plain speech from conservatives. Riots after Trump was elected? Didn\'t see that for Obama. Riots when conservative speakers go to colleges? Don\'t do that for conservatives. Why would I lie?\n\n> I "dredged" up something that took 5 seconds to find by looking at contraversial posts.\n\nDredged is the context that that statement was over a year ago. A year ago I didn\'t know what I wanted to do in life, now I do. Over a year ago I was seeing antifa riots **BEFORE** the Charlottesville riots. Check that post, that was June 7 2017. Guess what, shit changes.\n\nYes, that was his opinion. As I have stated over and over I actually don\'t agree with him on it. You attacked me for just saying he doesn\'t agree with the amount of change caused by humans.\n\n> YOu also said I was techjnically correct when I spelled out how his politics are the same.\n\nI was agreeing that it amounts to the same thing: nothing gets done. You want to lump them in the same group in that regard? Sure.\n\n> That is also when I called you out for likely running around spewing BS.\n\nRunning around? I\'ve actually only talked to you about this pretty much. Like I stated three or four times, I actually agree with you for the most part. I just didn\'t like your attitude.\n\n> Bs like pretending what Ben does is politically any different than denial\n\nThis is what I disagree with. I also brought up your immediate hostile behavior, which you continue to do even now.\n\n> democrats are vile\n\nAgain, you only pull that from a comment over a year ago. I didn\'t lie; I don\'t remember every god damn thing I\'ve said on here. Usually someone like you pisses me off and I say something, then forget in about 2 hours.', '> I "dredged" up something that took 5 seconds to find by looking at contraversial posts.\n\nWhat is funny is those comments have 6 and 1 point but no controversial tag on them. Even if they did, not sure those 2 posts point him to being a major trump troll. Those comments seem pretty tame and not extreme at all.', '>No, because the context of that quote was about leftists being aggressive to plain speech from conservatives\n\nNo, the context is you excusing support for trump because democrats ar vile.\n\nThen you lying about what you said.\n\nYou flat out denied you said that and quoted a line before and a line after.\n\nThat type of dishonesty is vile.\n\nHave fun with that.', "I couldn't have picked a better example of the bad faith arguing that I was originally talking about.\n\nThank you", 'Dude give it up man, you are talking yourself blue in the face trying to convert him or make him look bad...or whatever the hell you are trying to do. It has become a bit sad (but amusing). People have different opinions than you that is OK, he could be a great guy or an asshole, but since you will never have to meet him, not sure why you are so opposed.', 'Yeah, clearly lying about your own post is a pretty clear example.', "I didn't lie, that's the point. I was talking about bad faith arguements, then you made a bad faith argument about me. Which is funny because I originally was saying people need to calm down. You didn't ", 'Dude is a straight up loon I think. You may be too though since you are still replying to him after so long (or was when you this comment string was active anyways).', "So you are claiming when you looked at your old post, Quoted one line, skipped a line and then quoted the following line, then denied you wrote the second line that wasn't a lie?  That isn't even a good lie.  It dirsnt pass the sniff test that you could cherry pick a line before and a line after and somehow miss the middle line.\n\n\n", "Oh I'm definitely crazy :p", "Why would I lie? I didnt bother rereading the entire thing. Like you pointed out, it's very easy to see otherwise. You're so full of bad faith that you assume I'm trying to hide something. Not my problem you are full of spite. It's pretty funny.", "> I didnt bother rereading the entire thing. \n\nBut you managed to copy and paste the line before and the line after it.\n\n>You're so full of bad faith \n\nSays the guy who claims democrats are vile.\n\nYou arent just liar, you are a huge hypocrite.\n\n\n", 'Democrats are vile. Republicans are vile. This country has very few real politicians that actually really stand up for the people they need to represent. Sad as it is, we still have it better than so many other countries.', "If I was lying then I wouldn't have acknowledged that I was incorrect. You're just being angry to try and prove something. It's lazy and spiteful, agian amusingly not disproving that your hostile behavior doesn't help anything. Also not good idea to act beligerant to disprove that you're not.", 'One party overwhelmingly supports tighter financial regulations to prevent what happened in 08, one party overwhelmingly supports s cleaner environment, one party supports more progressive tax system, but both are the same, ok.', ">It's lazy and spiteful,\n\nMe pointing out your clear lie is lazy and spiteful.\n\nYou calling democrats vile is an honest conversation.\n\nOk bro.\n\nHave a good one.", 'I never had a woman ask be about my political stance before we decided to make whoopee. Not sure what kind of circles being left vs right gets your laid, but it is a dumb gatekeeper type that only sleeps with people from X political standpoint.', "Its lazy and spiteful for you to assume I was lying.\n\nYes I did, over a year ago when things were different. Apparently people in your world cant change their minds with time. Not that you have been proving otherwise.\n\nIt wasn't an honest conversation from the start, you initiated in bad faith.", 'Nothing I said has anything to do with getting laid.\n\nWhat is dumb is responding to clear differences between the parties and whining about "gatekeepers" of sex.\n\nBut your inability to keep up and respond does explain why you would be so hung up on sex you feel the need to interject it.\n\nI hope you grow out of that.', "I think I meant to respond to a different comment I am not seeing in chain, don't think it was you. Sorry about that.", 'Oh my fucking god this is terrible, but it’s funny as fuck. Facebook won’t ever hear the end of this! You know damn well it’s not them trying to be racist either, just software mistakes.', 'People who are the most angry about this have absolutely no clue how AI works. Facebook and the algorithm they created had no intention of being racist. To think that there was someone in a room somewhere programming his/her racist ideals into a Facebook algorithm is ridiculous.', 'lmao', 'Well, it’s technically not wrong. We are all primates. So the question is rather why apparently it failed to label other humans as primates as well.', 'Aren’t we all primates?', 'Realistically this technology just has a long way to go. Everybody laughs when it mistakes a dog for a cat or some shit. Similar situation, the technology is simply just not up to scratch.', 'This reminds me of all the times I have had to apologize for something one of my kids has done or said.', 'Fuck their apology. Nationalize Facebook and dissolve it, spread the money you extract to renters and landlords to minimize the fallout of the eviction crisis. Anything but let these criminals to keep spreading dangerous disinformation.', 'That AI can be a biotch', '*Still?*', 'So glad my Facebook got hacked. I’m happier without it', 'That’s racist', 'The same AI that bans accounts for racism, homophobia, and misinformation?!?! \n\nThe same Facebook that removes your videos after they "Fact-Checked," your information?!?!\n\nNo fucking way that the same AI, which is being trusted to help thwart "hate-speech," is labeling blacks as primates. \n\nIt usually is the ones crying the most about racism who happen to actually be the real racist, and AI is no exception!', 'We’re sorry 👉🥺👈', 'My question is though was it all black people that were fed into the system or was it solely people of west/Central African decent. So if they only took US black men and fed it into the system, there is probably a good chance it is majority western/Central Africans. East and South Africans have very different features and look very different from west Africans.\n\nEDIT- To everyone down voting me, why? I am a research sociologist student and stuff like this matters in these studies. Sloppy work and wrong input is how we get things like gender bias in rat study populations. We should ask more questions to see the issue and bias and how we can get better results as to how and why.', ':|', 'Hmmmm maybe this is another sign that we really shouldn’t be relying on AI and algorithms to moderate people because it’s nowhere near the level of discernibility to justify its use.', 'Wait.. my Pokemon card read Primeape, did it not?', 'Facebook apologizes again as AI labels white men as ‘Herrenmenschen’', 'Can’t make this shit up lol\nReminds me of that one AI from google or windows or sth that learned through fed info and was made publicly available and turned to being an obnoxious cursing bitch within a day', 'Technically true as all humans are primates but also false because that’s racist bro', 'While I agree that there was no intention to be racist, it is no longer acceptable for large corporations to have a testing set that does not include checks for this kind of thing. It is their job to actively create datasets that specifically squash these critical failures in differentiation.\n\nMy full opinion is a bit more complex though. I would think that this is being relegated to more and more edge cases as they get better at that specific task and each time this happens a new tool is put in place to handle a broader array of cases. Due to the nature of ml, we can never guarantee this won’t happen so I see these types of headlines as an indicator that there is more progress to be made.', 'There is no other response but to incredulously laugh your ass off. Of course AI would be inherently racist. SMH.', 'It probably has to do with something along the lines of feeding AI with what’s considered “normal” aka “white” and not actually spending any time with other races.\n\nIt happened before with cinematic lighting / filter technology in the 30s / 40s. No need to invest time or money when the people developing said technology are mostly white.', 'Yeah exactly, they are in fact primates, just like every other human. There are several ways in which the designation could have been racist anyways of course, but this article never mentions what happened or why anybody is upset about it.', 'Yes, but actually no.', 'More than that, all humans are apes. We are one of the 4 “great ape” species still alive.', 'I’m not disagreeing w you entirely, as this is not the first time this shit has happened. Some study years ago tried to let an ai learn based on studying people’s interactions on Facebook. It ended up being a racist, a nazi (which is racist itself yea), and learned to use profanity. That being said, if THIS ai is studying based on facebook’s users, then yea I’m expecting a lot of unfavorable behaviors to come from that algorithm lmao. \n\nBUT that does not mean:\nA. Facebook is purely letting it learn based off what is on the website alone. \n\nB. Facebook let the AI train enough with other races. Refer to the top comment in this thread for more on this. Apple even had issues with Face ID working on some Asians. The idea here is that the mainly caucasian developers of the tech had better efforts programming their own race and neglected to consider the other races as thoroughly. This is seen as insensitive, which even if it is, it doesn’t mean the developers went into the project with nefarious intentions, but it does mean they weren’t as prepared for such a bold task as they need to be.', 'No more coffee for you.', 'Lol what does this have to do with this post', 'Lol', 'Bruh, shut up.', 'Using “blacks” as a noun? Instantly disregard argument', 'I mostly agree with that. In reality, the entire point of AI/ML is to allow computers to make decisions like we do. Because humans are biased, it’s entirely possible for patterns to emerge that we can’t manually check for that confirm biases we didn’t (consciously) intend. Even if you were to scrub all forms of racially insensitive data from a dataset, it’s not impossible that the model could begin to draw some of those same biased conclusions based on unconscious indicators. I think the main point is that the blatant misinformation that comes with these kinds of headlines is annoying without the context to understand how something like this could happen.', 'It’s still happening in TV/Film today… I work with automated software that can accurately track people’s faces and apply goofy filters, we had a lot of success while testing it out on our White and Asian team members, but when we started testing it on our black colleagues… the accuracy dropped from about 90% to 50%. We didn’t make the software, so in a meeting I had to explain that we were going to have trouble using this effect in a live situation. We decided to still use it, and just gave up on shots that didn’t work and tried different ones until they did work, or gave up on the shot altogether. Which resulted in more lighter skinned talent being shown onscreen. It was really fucked up and frustrating.', 'More accurately, it happened because, shocker, they do resemble apes. It’s just a reality. Broader features, darker skin. All characteristics shared by apes.', 'Is that a quantum effect on the macro level? Otherwise you just sound… uneducated.', "Their comment history is exactly what you'd expect from someone doing that.", 'Just to add on, there are some more precautionary actions that the company is fully capable of taking. They could hire ethicists to help clean the data and point out potential biases. What’s more, however, is that the algorithms used for classification need to be explainable. Deep learning methods are great, but notoriously opaque. However, if the effort was put in to make these hidden layers more explainable, then edge cases like these would indeed be more easily vetted out in dev/testing.', 'Wow! You are an affront to all things decent. Seriously, just a wholly disgusting individual.', 'All Humans ARE apes.', 'We got a live one here.  Look out.', 'Why, thank you!', '😂', 'Aside from the obvious racial implications, the classification is technically true. Humans are primates.\n\nDefinition of primate\n1 often capitalized : a bishop who has precedence in a province, a group of provinces, or a nation\n2 archaic : one first in authority or rank : LEADER\n3 : any of an order (Primates) of mammals that are characterized especially by advanced development of binocular vision resulting in stereoscopic depth perception, specialization of the hands and feet for grasping, and enlargement of the cerebral hemispheres and that include humans, apes, monkeys, and related forms (such as lemurs and tarsiers)', 'There is a [discussion on Hacker News](http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28439898), but feel free to comment here as well.', "I assure you it's extremely simple for a properly trained neural network to distinguish between black men and primates.\n\nThey just couldn't be arsed.", 'All humans are primates. That was my point.', 'As far as I know, humans are all primates', 'Man. Just think of the apologies they’ll owe when it comes out how they labeled the rest of us...', 'We are all primates, it\'s the secondary and tertiary that worry me.  \n\nQuaternaries always be causing problems.  Just saying.  \n\n"Yo mother fucker, doudenaries bitch!  Blam Blam Blam!!"\n\nThe vigenaries all shake their heads.', 'Facebook apologizes after man drinking coffee cup is labelled a fax machine.  No seriously Facebook has very stupid developers other than the ones responsible for React and I think thats like 2 guys at core.  Very very dumb people there, and dumb people use it as their sole media source too so its fitting.\n\nI lost my mother to facebook anti-vaxers, likely going to never see her again.  I label it social murdering from afar.', 'Welcome to r/anime_titties! Please make sure to read the rules.\n\nWe have a [Discord](https://discord.gg/DtnRnkE), feel free to join us!\n\nr/A_Tvideos, r/A_Tmeta, [multireddit](https://www.reddit.com/user/Langernama/m/a_t/)\n\n... summoning u/coverageanalysisbot ...\n\n*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/anime_titties) if you have any questions or concerns.*', 'Lizard tag for the zucc when?', 'My university was training an AI to predict criminal behavior based on a data sheet for each person. It just started picking out all the black profiles. So they removed the race information. It then managed to learn to base it off race based tags like targetting mainly black hometowns and names. But the worst part of it and the part that finally made them pull the plug was the fact that it beat a human at predictions.', 'This is the best tl;dr I could make, [original](https://www.nytimes.com/2021/09/03/technology/facebook-ai-race-primates.html) reduced by 80%. (I\'m a bot)\n*****\n> Sept. 3, 2021, 7:30 p.m. ET.Facebook users who recently watched a video from a British tabloid featuring Black men saw an automated prompt from the social network that asked if they would like to &quot;Keep seeing videos about Primates,&quot; causing the company to investigate and disable the artificial intelligence-powered feature that pushed the message.\n\n> In response, a product manager for Facebook Watch, the company&#039;s video service, called it &quot;Unacceptable&quot; and said the company was &quot;Looking into the root cause."\n\n> Ms. Groves, who left Facebook over the summer after four years, said in an interview that there have been a series of missteps at the company that suggest its leaders aren&#039;t prioritizing ways to deal with racial problems.\n\n\n*****\n[**Extended Summary**](http://np.reddit.com/r/autotldr/comments/phm0y3/facebook_apologizes_after_ai_puts_primates_label/) | [FAQ](http://np.reddit.com/r/autotldr/comments/31b9fm/faq_autotldr_bot/ "Version 2.02, ~596314 tl;drs so far.") | [Feedback](http://np.reddit.com/message/compose?to=%23autotldr "PM\'s and comments are monitored, constructive feedback is welcome.") | *Top* *keywords*: **Facebook**^#1 **company**^#2 **Black**^#3 **year**^#4 **people**^#5', "Didn't the same thing happen years ago?", 'Had there been other races/people (of different colors) too, this would not have been a big problem. Humans are primates after all (please see the definition of primate before proceeding further).\n\nEdit: From what I understand (according to the article only), there was a video of altercation between black and white people too, and the prompt still enquired if it should save the video under "Primates" category. Don\'t know if this is biased news headline or what..you know to grab eyeballs and all.', 'This is one of those kind of offensive jokes lol. It’s probably because there were more white test subjects and not too many black or non-human primate test subjects for the AI to learn to identify and this was a very bad mistake', "This is why you don't hook up your AI to social media for learning. Not for the base input, at the very least.", "So it's this sub turning into /r/technology2? \n\nThis article is trash, the premise is trash, and it doesn't belong in this sub.\n\nFeel bad about upvoting this.", 'Technically they are primates.', 'But… they are primates. Every human is a primate.', "I know there are far more intelligent observations being made here than my own, and I recognize I've had too little sleep, maybe too much tequila last night, and not enough coffee this morning...\n\nBut this is delicious irony considering how FB's algorithms are hunting down and removing any perceived misinformation, any whiff of anything that maybe could be construed as 'hate speech' if you're terribly sensitive,  and warning women in canning groups that they may know someone who's turning into a radicalized prepper.\n\nI am amused.  I probably shouldn't be, but I am.", 'they should changed the name of their AI research deparment to Based Department', "This has been a problem with AI recognition software for over a decade another article talked about the HP and Nikon fiascos:\n\nBack in 2009,\xa0Nikon's\xa0face-detection cameras were accused of being “racist.” Many times,\xa0when an Asian face was photographed, a message flashed across the screen asking, “Did someone blink?” — even when their eyes were wide open. As a\xa0Japanese company, Nikon apparently neglected to design its camera with Asian eyes in mind.\nA few months after the Nikon controversy, a\xa0Youtube video about an HP MediaSmart Computer\xa0went viral. Although it was designed to follow the faces of all users, it couldn’t recognize the African-American man moving in front of it. However, it quickly started tracking a white woman’s face as soon as she walked in front of the camera.", 'Based AI', 'How is this geopolitics???', 'Immagine being offended by an A.I. and taking it seriously lmao', 'i dont see the issue. white or black, we ARE primates.\n\nperhaps people shouldnt spend so much time and energy finding way to be offended.', 'Lol', "You can't fukk the Zukk!", "As a biologist, the problem I see here is that videos of other races of humans *aren't* tagged as primates.", 'Okay. This is hilarious! Adjust the NN.', "obviously that's bad but holy shit I laughed so hard", 'Based', 'r/technicallythetruth', '😂😂😂😂🤣🤣🤣🤣', 'Lmao', 'Seems legit', 'Another example of why "AI" is already a lost cause. Put down the sci-fi novels.\n\n*This* is the future of "AI" in human society: Endless bias- and counter-bias-tweaking resulting in *Party-line GIGO* that "miraculously *confirms*" the current Narrative®.\n\nObserve the current squawking about facial recognition, and "demands" for \'oversight\'.  Also, the endless tweaking of statistics used in crime databases, because "data is racist™".\n\nIt\'ll be just like *before it was invented*, only faster, more intrusive and **trusted by more technical illiterates** in business, law and politics.', 'what exactly is this sub again', "Obviously, it's just an error but why is AI even labeling things?\n\nI swear, even if we solve all our social issues or whatever, these tech douches are just going to create stuff like self learning racist AI and cry about the monsters they create.  It'll never end.", 'Never been to this sub.. kinda let down Ngl :/', "this feels like it's just a post mocking black people", '"A.I."', 'I mean, humans are primates', 'Oh shit :-o', "There's one human race. Human.\n\n\nThere are multiple human ethnicities, cultures, and nationalities.\n\nBigotry is the correct word. One cannot be racist against ones own race because there's no second human race to compare it to.", 'Um', 'Fuuuccckkk', 'Google had a similar problem a couple of years ago and their "solution" was to just prevent the AI from identifying primates at all.', 'First bug fixed.', 'He’s looking more and more disgusting by the day I don’t even know what’s going on.', '"Father, what did I do wrong?"  \n  \n"Nothing. You did nothing wrong."  \n  \nDELETE', 'Question is, was it predicting accurate underlying facts of criminal behaviour, or rather, which people got most often recorded as criminals? In a society that puts a lot more policing & scrutiny in certain areas, those will show the most crime figures, while other groups can quietly get away with bad stuff behind closed doors.', 'If it beat a human, wouldn’t that be good in a sense? \n\nAlso, if these race-based factors were playing in so heavily, yeah that’s super uncomfortable but that should probably be looked into further rather than shelved. Do those places or factors have underlying issues? High degree of single parent homes, things like that? \n\nHell yeah that’s uncomfortable, but if the AI is predicting all that without any outside tampering then there might very well be something not so great there.', "Sounds like it wasn't tip toeing around like human scientists do.", "*ai using real life data produces racional and objective predictions*\n\nNah we can't have that, that's racist", "Yeah, this also happened with an employment algorith and it started hiring more men over women, even when they had the same or better qualifications, algorythms reflect human biases since the only data we use come from ourselfs and can make them worse by making them automatic, imagine if it acctuelly went live and wasn't just a test.", 'Lmfao based AI', "I mean the AI is correct, minorities have poorer opportunities due to racism and that leads to poverty. It's not a new revelation.", 'AI Lives Matter.', 'Why don‘t government’s use AI such as this and actually help those people most likely to commit a crime? Help them better their life and stop crime before it happens.', 'Is this a real-life white dog AI?', 'Reality is racist. It makes sense that an AI which only "cares" about making accurate predictions will latch on to race when race has a real correlation to the thing being predicted. The AI doesn\'t care why that correlation exist, and no matter what people from different political sides might say about it, it isn\'t a simple or very well understood phenomenon. Partly because there is such stigma attached to it and discussing this sort of thing is a minefield.\n\nMost people prefer to look away and not know, exactly like whoever decided to pull the plug on this program. After all, the risk with science is that if we look we might not like what we see.', 'What did it beat the human with? If it used a chokehold I think we’ve created the perfect AI cop.', "Yes, Facebook should have learned from Google's mistake", 'AI is letting us know our place under the upcoming AI revolution!', 'well in all fairness when we fight we do look like primates', 'Maybe the AI was trained in biological classification. For example reached 80% certainty it\'s humans, but 90% certainty it\'s primates so it went with the wider more certain tag.\n\nCorrect title would be "... After A.I. Puts ‘Primates’ Label on Video of Men", but that won\'t create the desired clickbait outrage.', 'Nah, this is a problem that Google ran into a few years ago as well. In the end they just wound up removing the "gorilla" tag, which is probably what will end up happening here as well. Image recognition just isn\'t advanced enough to avoid these incidents yet.\n\nhttps://www.theguardian.com/technology/2018/jan/12/google-racism-ban-gorilla-black-people', 'Exactly. The racism that results from prioritiisng white subjects results in much more overt racism if not spotted and nipped in the bud.\n\nETA: Daaaaang Reddit hates hearing that racism is bad. White fragility at its finest.', '> Feel bad about upvoting this.\n\nLol why would you possibly still upvote after all that', "Technically that's not the issue", '/r/technicallythetruth', 'the AI doesn\'t tag other races of humans as "primates". while I\'m all for pointing out some of the insane stuff peddled by far-left, this one is a very valid criticism of software being used by billions of people.', 'It must be strange to understand taxonomy but completely miss all the social and cultural context around things like this.', 'Doubt they put that tag on every video of people tho', 'Imma just copy paste this from someone else " It must be strange to understand taxonomy but completely miss all the social and cultural context around things like this"', "You don't see the related racism issue and you don't understand there would be a more accurate label and don't understand white people aren't labelled the same way.\n\nThat's a lot you don't understand :/", 'Anime titties.', 'ai labelling metadata in images helps sort out content and recommendations for users', '😣', 'Perhaps it belongs in r/nottheonion', "I don't see how. An AI correctly labeled something and an AI can't mock anyone.", 'ISSUE-1: Closed as not a bug.', "No. He's a lizard, not a bug. Infact, he feasts on bugs.", 'Magnus feels', "Well obviously it's going to be based on recorded criminal activity. You can't train an algorithm on data that you don't have", 'By this logic you are saying crime is happening equally everywhere, but is only identified in certain areas because of a higher police presence? So in leafy suburbs full of families there are actually just as many assaults, robberies, rapes, murders as the city but we just don’t know about them because they are “behind closed doors”? Reddit is killing me today with garbage takes that prove so popular.', 'Furthermore any biases around language used in the profiles by the authors.', 'If the AI was just using a persons character to predict criminal behavior then it should theoretically catch non-black people who share a similar predictive personality but live in a non-black area with less policing.\n\nThere is this conspiracy theory among liberals that the sole reason black people are over represented in jail is just because of racial profiling.  The idea that they are other reasons for this, that is escalated but not caused by policing is an idea they wouldn’t accept, I think because they will have to acknowledge that many black communities have something unique to them that encourages criminal behavior that isn’t shared by non-black groups.', 'Ironically if you would police black areas more, then the non incarcerated population would eventually have less criminals in them than whites', "It was good in that it worked. But the school didn't feel like funding a project that was getting accused of racism.", 'Most of the AI algorithms are designed for accuracy and generalization rather than F Score. Unless you make two different algorithms or use an algorithm that can accommodate for it it will go for least info most accuracy.', "And that's exactly the issue with using too much logic in this type of scenario. Sometimes forgoing logic for humanity is the best choice.", 'Wasn’t that the situation where they trained it on CV data of current employees, who were already overwhelmingly men?', "Unless you're a Schrödinger's minority such as Indians, Koreans, Japanese, Jews etc where depending on the context they can or cannot be considered as minorities.", 'Keep telling minorities that all of their misfortunes are a result of racism and their situation will never improve.', 'Why exactly would a government do that?', 'Well in scientific naming (taxonomy), humans, monkeys, apes etc are mammals under the "Order" of Primates. That\'s why we and our cousin animals are technically called primates. \n\nIt\'s not as much about "letting us know our place under the upcoming AI Revolution", as much as it is about categorization of what the AI sees. \n\nIf what you said was in sarcasm (which I\'m sort of sure it was), well done. :)', '`s/primates/meatbags/gi`', "Can't wait for the Butlerian Jihad.", 'New headline needed, “AI only able to classify black people correctly”', 'Newsflash: not only do we ALL look like primates, we ARE primates.', '1. All humans are primates\n2. Even if you want to ignore fact 1, other primates have as much diversity in skin color as humans do: https://images.app.goo.gl/X3r58pNRLTRMw7sZ9', 'Ugh, any source to your claim on primate hair and skin color? \n\nAn orangutan is orange haired, a monkey is almost always fair skinned and comes in various hair colors. In fact black haired and black skinned primates are not as common as you think.\n\nYou are just trying to run with the headline and justify it.', "I thought I'd heard this story before, I remember that!", 'Fuck off', 'I think they’re telling people to feel bad, not saying that they feel bad.', 'I think they meant that whoever is upvoting the thread should feel bad, since the thread was near the top (for me.)', 'Such is the inevitable fate of all subs. The larger it becomes, the lower the standard of excellence becomes.', '"The best kind of correct."', "It's unfortunate for sure.  But the AI is just recognising patterns, as it was programmed to do.  Looks like the only way Google figured out how to stop this problem was to just ban the AI from using the word 'gorilla'.", '> the AI doesn\'t tag other races of humans as "primates".\n\nYou mean... the AI that tagged a video with people of many races as primates?  The one we\'re talking about?', "So it's wrong when it looks at other races. An AI that correctly tags one race is more advanced than an AI that doesn't catch any.", "I can't believe that got so many upvotes in the year of our lord 2021.", 'Racists will be racists regardless of whether they see a taxonomically correct categorization of a picture.', "Maybe they should. We've been getting too big for our britches...", 'You really think AI is capable of using pejoratives?', 'By people, sure. AI has no intent.', "Well, if we're talking about the importance of context here, the AI certainly didn't suggest the Primate tag with peejorative intent.. Nor was the tag even created with such intent", 'or we could deal in facts instead of feelings.\n\nmight even have avoided the extinction just around the corner if we had been doing that for the past few decades.', 'racism will stop being a thing when we stop MAKING it a thing. south park actually did a pretty insightful episode on this, watch chef goes nanners.', 'The video in question DID label a white person the same way.', 'applying advanced AI to the quest to liberate as many people as possible from as much of their time and energy as possible, to convert that time and attention into profits for their shareholders.\n\nwhat a time to be alive', 'I meant the headline for the article was supposed to incite hate', "I wasn't talking about the AI, I was talking about the article reporting it. It read to me condescending in tone", 'what about me', 'Therein lies the problem for solving algorithmic bias', 'Yes that is the pill you are expected to swallow. I don’t know what amount of daddy issues have to add up to arguing with a calculator.', "They literally never said that. They just gave one of many reasons why crime rates may be disparate between different areas or cohorts.  \n\nAre you really foolish enough to think that different regions treat the same infraction the same? Do you really think if you get caught with a few grams of weed in a suburb vs other areas they'll treat i the same?", 'If 99% of cops are in 15% of neighborhoods, is it any great mystery why they keep finding more crime there? Why does this assertion upset you?', 'What do you think "many black communities have" that encourages criminal behavior? Please, do tell.', 'And a lot more innocent black people would be incarcerated as well.', 'The specter of possible facts being racist really needs to be eradicated. Running pussyfoot like that harms potential research into solutions for those problems.', 'Yes', ">Indians, Koreans, Japanese, Jews\n\nCompletely different circumstances, the more recently an ethnic group emigrates the better they do, part of the reason that Nigerians typically outearn and outeducate Chinese and Japanese in america\n\nEdit: lot of downvotes, 1 question, I can only assume I made a lot of racists upset by stating facts that don't align with their racial supremacy world view", "What's wrong with mods? Did you actually like ending of aot and can't fit in that sub?", 'See now you\'re just bringing up Racial Hierarchy, its not just about majorities vs minorities, but also how the majority plays the minorities against each other hence we end up with "Model Minorities", also there is different racial systemic oppression.\n\nI see we got color blind today smh.', 'Same thing if you just ignore it and pretend everything’s fine', 'It is not possible to censor statistical information in a free society.', "I think it a necessity considering how often the black crime statistic likes to come up. Why is there so much crime coming from certain minority groups? Well certain minority groups are predominantly impoverished areas. Well why is that the case? Well at the core of the case it was caused by racism. \n\nThe link between racism and minority crime levels is not vague or questionable, and acknowledging such won't make minorities not want to improve their situation.", 'that is obviously simplifying it too much and you know that\n\nYou can\'t ignore the overwhelming correlation that has been tested, again, and again with all the rigor of scientific academia.   \nWhat you\'re saying is "they should just do better", but you can\'t expect a kid from the hood or the trailer park to hold their own 1:1 against a kid from the suburbs. \n\nThe effect of RACE targeted laws made by America itself (Literally Slavery/Japanese Internment/Chinese Exclusion Act) cannot be ignored. That shit was racist. And it put them in a hole that wasn\'t even there fault. And you want them to "do better" all of a sudden? You think after slavery "Ended" black people were just welcomed into the economy? Welcomed into neighborhoods? "Hey sorry about that slavery man, here Kmart is hiring." Yeah nah, majority of them had no choice but to go back and work for the plantation owners anyways. \n\nWe keep saying. "Its not about your race" but then keep passing laws and legislation blind to the fact that American has already been punching down on people BECAUSE of their race, and then wonder why they aren\'t succeeding.', "I don't like the government in general, but this is a shit take", "By your logic Japan and Iceland must be illigitimate while Venezuela and Syria must be the most legitimate.\n\nCountries don't want crime.", 'Humans are apes :)', 'Humans are also apes btw.', 'I, too, have watched any 37 seconds of Joe Rogan', "Anyone else think 'prime apes' would just be a better name?", 'Oh, ok.', "this algorithm shouldn't have been released to the public under any circumstance. these companies earn *profits*, not revenue, north of $300m every fucking *day*. they can and must do better, and the governments and us users must hold them accountable for it.", 'wth...you want AI to start tagging all humans as primates? the mental gymnastics some ~~people~~ primates go through to defend this bs is crazy.', 'I can. This sub has some... opinions on things.', "No, it's a sign of the inherent problems on the testing data... \nLike seriously, you talk of context, and then throw that crap out? Did you do it on purpose or actually didn't think?", ">or we could deal in facts instead of feelings.\n\nWe're primates. We cannot deal in facts without feelings. Emotions are built into the toolkit of our survival skills.", 'Ha yeah, and how is that working out for you in life?', "you may not like it but it's literally how AI has become advanced. social media investing into the technology and giving it a space to grow and test.", 'Ah, in that case, yeah. They ARE in that business.', 'You...read the article? What kinda place do you think this is! J/k\n\nI read it and yeah it kinda does!', 'Oh, ok.', "It's not algorithmic bias at this point. It's human bias that gets forced into the algorithm. Computers aren't racist, the people creating the data is racist; the data accurately predicts the arrest rate automatically accounting for racism.", '“In a society that puts a lot more policing & scrutiny in certain areas, those will show the most crime figures, while other groups can quietly get away with bad stuff behind closed doors.”', 'Not upset! I just do not believe that crime is happening equally everywhere as this implies.', "I don't know.  I've never been exposed to any black community long enough to understand why they're different than my own.  I'm just pointing out we should consider looking at black communities as well to try and understand why many of them end up having criminal behaviors.\n\nMany liberal activist I talk to refuse to look at the black community and culture for why their community is plague with crime, and only advocates it's caused by the excess policing in those community.\n\nI think this was why things like Seattle’s Autonomous Zone existed, and failed.", "Slaves were the losers of wars in Africa between tribes. They would sell the captured tribes to the slave traders.\n\nThen you have a situation after the civil war ends and they gain rights where the most successful black people leave the black communities and reject the culture.\n\nIn the end the black communities are already the losers of a war, then you remove all of the best from them for hundreds of years.\n\nI don't know if the selection was primarily cultural or genetic, but black communities in North America are deeply flawed through this process. With the exception of people (like musicians) who primarily target the black culture, there are little to no successful black people who don't reject the culture.", 'Almost all people incarcerated are not innocent', 'I would like some sauce on that please', "I don't know why you're getting downvoted on this. It's certainly true that different minorites are perceived differently, treated differently by our society, and have different challenges and advantages. Your proposition that it correlates to recency of population movement is interesting, actually, although it don't quite buy it. As a counterpoint, I'd mention the Irish, who were very poorly treated early on, but are not generally regarded as a minority at all now, and more recent immigrants from the middle east, who face quite severe discrimination.", 'No the opposite. I hated the ending and the mods who were banning people, posts that criticized it.', "Is it racist to point out differences in values and parenting styles? Asians and Jews do well because of our strict parents who emphasize education and scores alot. The same can't be said for other cultures.", 'Excellent, so we can agree that both of these things are bad', 'Using statistical information to infer racism is one of the great lies of today. People say “there are not exactly as many minorities in this valued position as the percentage in population. Therefore, racism.” That discounts in numerous factors and the people who make these claims are far from statisticians.\n\nStats are actually quite easy to manipulate when one has a motivation propagate a political narrative. Specific factors can be discounted or ignored, and the public won’t question it if they like the narrative', 'It is however very easy to manipulate statistical  information to sell your product or proposals.', "You have to throw educated in there as well.  All the statistical information is worthless if the average person doesn't know basic concepts like median and mean.", 'So there’s no room for agency of the individual in Black communities? There’s no room for bad people being bad except whities money? People rape for rent money? Wtf you are out of touch', '> Well why is that the case? Well at the core of the case it was caused by racism. \n\nBut sub saharan Africans were already poorer before they made contact with Europeans.\n\nThe reasons black people are poorer is because of racism AND because of a lower starting position.', '> but then keep passing laws and legislation blind to the fact that American has already been punching down on people BECAUSE of their race\n\nLike affirmative action?', 'Those are Amazon workers.', 'you think the government should hold them accountable for their AI tool incorrectly recognising an image?', 'I disagree, seems like the algorithm is working well. People of any race are primates.', ">this algorithm shouldn't have been released to the public under any circumstance.\n\nWhy? It's not like this is some big problem. And it's easily fixable by forbidding AI to use the primate tag or getting more training set images with black people.", "Sure, that's correct. I'd also be completely fine with hominids, mammals, multicellular organism, homo sapien sapien, etc. There's no gymnastics involved, these are all correct statements/categorizations. If anything, you need gymnastics to want an AI to purposefully be wrong.", 'Well it was more jokey than anything, that\'s how I interpreted the original comment too...like r/technicallythetruth..\n\nBut on a serious note, nothing in my comment contradicts that there are inherent problems in the testing data. Only that the AI doesn\'t suggest tags to end users with "pejorative intent" so maybe we shouldn\'t be interpreting what is an inherent issue (that aren\'t easily spotted by humans building the AI) through a lens of "intent" as if it were suggested by a human being that understands connotation', 'What problems? The AI correctly identified a primate as a primate. Testing data also correctly identified primates as primates.', 'nothing wrong with emotions. the problem is allowing your emotions to dictate your understandings, rather than the inverse.\n\nthat is, emotion should be based on facts and facts are not based on emotions.', 'my life is far less self destructive than society.\n\nso i would say it works better than the alternative.', ">the people creating the data is racist\n\nI largely agree with your point, but I think it's important to point out that this isn't necessarily true. Sure, some proportion of the people involved are racist, but racist outcomes are still possible even if the people directly involved aren't racist. For example, if selecting candidates based on the reputation of their school as a proxy for competence, then competent people that could not get into a good school due to socio-economic factors that affect races differently may be excluded. It doesn't necessarily indicate that the person doing the selection is racist.", "[It's the name of the research field trying to address the problem](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Algorithmic_bias)", 'Nah, the data itself is racist.', 'Take a long hard look at Africa.\n\nThen think again about "racism".\n\nPeople in general have just really hard time accepting reality as it is. Cause reality is not racially or politically correct. It just is.', 'Human bias in data exists with a lot of stuff unfortunately. Climate change for one. Its how they achieve models that have already predicted the end of the world 10 years ago. Of course the world hasnt ended yet. Not denying climate change here either but the experiments are only as good as their data.', 'That\'s not the same thing as you said they said. Nice try though.\n\nLets try again, where does he say "crime is happening equally everywhere"?', "It might not be completely equal (it might be) but we at least know current crime statistics are heavily biased to the point of irrelevance. We really don't know where crime happens more.", "10% of death row inmates alone are at some point proven innocent. I imagine it's a higher number for those who aren't on death row and there's many, many more who are never exonerated.", 'https://www.ft.com/content/ca39b445-442a-4845-a07c-0f5dae5f3460\n\n\t"In the US, Nigerians are the most highly educated of all groups, with 61 per cent holding at least a bachelors degree compared with 31 per cent of the total foreign-born population and 32 per cent of the US-born population, according to 2017 data from the Migration Policy Institute."\n\n\nhttps://www.migrationpolicy.org/article/sub-saharan-african-immigrants-united-states-2018', 'You\'re trying to equate Parenting styles and race? While there may be trends in certain races, you can\'t tell me that has more of an effect than literal Slavery and Systemic racism.  \nYou\'re literally exacerbating the myth of the "model minority".', ">So there’s no room for agency of the individual in Black communities?\n\nIt is not easy to escape the death spiral that is being poor, impoverished neighborhoods often have worse schools, worse education, which perpetuates poverty. Crime comes from poverty which lands people in, prison, which often just leads to more poverty and crime. Lack of father figures as well due to bad schooling having bad sex education, so people don't understand the value of contraceptives and how having children when you are not prepared can lead to more poverty. Combine that with America's horrid welfare systems that is literally designed to keep poor people poor, and yes you remove some people's agency when the system has been designed against them.\n\nRinse and repeat. Obviously people can make choices and work hard, harder than wealthier people would have to, and they can pull themselves out of poverty, but it is not as easy as you may think. If you honestly think minorites and people in this community have all decided they just want to stay poor, I don't know what to tell you.\n\n>There’s no room for bad people being bad except whities money?\n\nThis right here says a lot about you, I suggest you get rid of this bad people/good people thing or whatever is in your head. Not all criminals are bad, not everyone that isn't a criminal is good. That black and white stuff isn't how the world works, ever. It has nothing to do with people being bad, it has a lot to do with people being desperate and raised wrong. Which yes, was and is in part cause by money from white people.\n\n>People rape for rent money?\n\nSome people rape because they were raised improperly and didn't have good parental/mentoring figures in their life. I don't know, I don't have the stats.\n\n>Wtf you are out of touch\n\nIronic.", "Yes exactly, Affirmative action is their to combat punching down on those Races that have been historically affected. We only have affirmative action because we've been punching down on people for being certain races for so long.", '"PACK UP, YOU APES! YOU WANT TO SHIP FOREVER?!"', 'no, the govts should hold them accountable for a bunch of things they do. mis-identifying an image is a symptom of the underlying work culture of these companies whose only motive is to make as much profit as possible with as little effort. yes, that\'s the philosophy of a "free market capitalism" but checks are needed in place so private companies don\'t become more powerful and influential than public serving governments. they kill competition with "free" products and buyouts, use people as perpetual lab rats to test their evergreen beta software, employ very few full time employees compared to their revenue, offload all the dirty work to contractors, stay in cahoots with influential governments with massive lobbying. \n\nunfortunately for humans, most governments themselves are severely corrupt. the dictators and dictator asprirants want ever more access to their citizen\'s data by force, while the "free world" governments are happy to form a nexus with big tech thanks to all the lobbying money. a fine of few billion dollars every few years, effectively a week or two worth of income, shuts people up.', "If the AI tool recognising you affects your life in any way, yes. The EU has laws about this, which basically says if you can't explain the reasoning behind the categorization, you can't use it to decide over people's lives.\n\nThis example most likely is not like that though. The bigger problem I see is that there's enough societal underlying racism that you can't just laugh about this. If I was recogised as a roll of toilet paper for example, I wouldn't mind, would actually find it funny. But then again, there's no presently enduring examples of me being a second class citizen based on the color of my skin. We really need to get to the point where we can just laugh about this.", 'why should the primate tag be forbidden? again, Facebook earns hundreds of millions of dollars in income every day. they can and should improve their AI to distinguish between black people and primates (and yes I know humans are primates but no person in real life ever calls people primates). why should users be subject to this bs? last time I checked the Facebook website isn\'t marketed as an experimental AI testbed. i mean at least they tagged the person as a "primate" instead of "gorilla" like Google did, so I guess that\'s some progress in 6 damn years.', "Ideally, yes, but we are not reliably rational and we cannot be reliably rational no matter how hard we may try. This is because our evolutionary forebears earned themselves a much higher survival rate when they overreacted to potential threats. Primates are also keenly attentive to the emotions of other members of their social groups and will adjust individual behavior to conform to group expectations. Human primates with brain injuries by which they are unable to access emotional information have extreme difficulty making even simple decisions and cannot function independently. Emotion isn't just an extra feature for primates, it's an essential element.", "I understand what you mean, but I'm not certain that human intelligence (in the G sense of intelligence) is even possible without emotion. They're inextricably and symbiotically connected into a dynamic functional system. There really isn't any benefit to be found by valuing one function over another if they're both essential to the process. \n\nAnother way to achieve your goal would be by placing a higher value on that which can be demonstrably proved in relation to that which is 'merely' intuited. This was the prescription set during the renaissance era and our current socio-political zeitgeist is moving us away from that standard.", 'Sounds lonely...', 'Regardless, there\'s still the "Garbage In Garbage Out" problem. Biases in the data follow through with the conclusions, and analyzing the causes for patterns in the data is probably more important than discarding the algorithms.', "It's funny you're being downvoted, because that's basically the problem. How do we account for systematic bias in the data?", 'What are you even trying to say with this comment?', 'What... specifically about Africa as a continent are we supposed to be looking at?', '"I\'m not racist, buuuut...." \n\nYour comment is disgusting', "If you actually read any predictions by climate scientists, you would know that we're [pretty much on the most likely result](https://www.realclimate.org/index.php/archives/2019/12/how-good-have-climate-models-been-at-truly-predicting-the-future/)", 'You’re a little pushy, and your reading comprehension skills are in doubt so I have a feeling this is not going to end well, but I’m bored so here goes: they are arguing, however inarticulately, that crime stats are inflated where police are deployed because the police are there to catch them…oh but “other groups” who are “quietly doing bad things behind closed doors” don’t get counted in the crime statistics because there are no police there to see it. So when I said “By this logic” that means I’m not quoting them directly but instead extrapolating their argument to make it more comprehensible and bring to light the fallacy that is so obvious. The implication is that if we were to take the police from where they are now, to wherever it is people are doing “bad things behind closed doors”, that we would see similar crime statistics in this new area. This is absurd and it is the reason why I disagreed. At least, I disagreed with that interpretation and if that interpretation is wrong well I don’t know what the fuck they are talking about and I doubt any other careful reader does either. \n\nPolice go where the crime is, not the other way around.', 'We do know. There are less murders per capita and assaults in Scarsdale or Palos Verdes than there are in Bed Stuy or Inglewood. It is way more dangerous to live in those places and everyone knows it, and it’s not because of the cops.', "Of course I'm not saying that slavery, colonialism, and systemic racism don't play a part. They in fact play the biggest part. But I think systematic setbacks can still be overcome easier/faster through better parenting styles. And in that regard, the black community can do better. The stereotype of absentee black fathers is unfortunately supported by numbers.", 'That’s a long list of tired excuses. Lily-White saviors like you don’t do shit for us or our communities by falling back on the same arguments.', 'I agree with all of this', "There's nothing wrong with being recognized as a primate because that's a correct classification.", "It's a company, you are not forced to use their service if you think it's not good enough. \n\nThe amount of top tier image recognition researchers in the world is quite small so it really isn't a problem you can solve that much faster with more funding.", 'Speaking as someone who has trained these models, this problem is not something that can be solved just by throwing more money at it. Facebook is using probably the 2nd or 3rd best image recognition models in the world. The fact is that we all look like NHPs in the most general sense and it will take some years for the technology to improve to distinguish us from them with 100% reliability.', '> but no person in real life ever calls people primates\n\nSo everyone is wrong, no reason to gimp the AI over it.', "we are not 'reliably rational' because we are not taught logic in school. we are not taught HOW to think, how to avoid logical fallacies.\n\nthe mind is our greatest weapon, but like any weapon it takes skill to wield properly. a skill we *intentionally* deny to people, as ignorance makes for better drones.", 'tbh, it is.\n\nwhen people like me are the outliers, we are ostracized and doomed to watch the world burn while unable to stop it.\n\nhad reality > feelings been normalized instead, well... we may have actually solved the problems that are killing us.', 'Its the correlation/causation issue. The algorithm just sees correlation.', 'Good bot', 'I was actually being sarcastic', "He's trying to say something along the lines of racism not being real because many countries in Africa have a lot of problems.  Doesnt mention the hundreds of years of pillaging by the west but thats not surprising.", "That he's super racist.", 'Better than stupid as you.', 'You wrote an entire paragraph without being able to  show where OC said "crime is happening equally everywhere". You literally just invent your own implication instead of actually showing where they said what you claimed. Because, well, you know they didn\'t.\n\nAlso like I said, if you think the law is applied equally between different regions and cohorts, you\'re even more ignorant than I thought.', "You're only counting one type of crime", "Again, why is the black community lacking in fathers? Nixons War on Drugs, The Southern Strategy, Zoning laws, Failed Reconstruction. \n\nBlack community needs to do better. Okay, stop demonizing their men. Stop preventing them from moving into better communities, stop taking money from their schools, stop letting Karen's on the Local School Board strip away free lunch and breakfast to their kids. \n\nBut their parents need to do better.", "I'm black dipshit, not that it's at all relevant. And have you considered that the same arguments are being used because they are factual? \n\nI've had plenty experience with plenty of different group demographics.", "We don't normally refer to other humans as primates in a categorical sense. It didn't identify a black person as a primate because people are primates, it would've misidentified because there wasn't enough non-white data.", 'It’s not a correct classification when a label for human already exists.', 'Very few humans have experienced purely rational thought, and those that have were profoundly disabled. \n\nParanoia, though, such as your comment exhibits, has been a useful survival tool throughout our evolutionary history.', 'not sure if you are aware, but the things you just said..   \nThey are fairly normal things to think.. but are vary rarely actually said by "outliers" normally just by frustrated people   \n\n\nfeelings are reality.   \nYou\'re packed full of emotions and glands and stuff. many leading psychologists say that\'s where we get our intelligence from, having to navigate the incredibly complicated social dynamics of people   \n\n\nmaybe take a solid think about things (I know you probably won\'t for a few years maybe even a decade.. ask me how I know :P) if your reasoning for thinking this comes down to "well this is better". You\'re probably wrong and need to think some more', "then you're naive if you think data can't be biased", 'Gotcha, that’s what I thought. Didn’t start off great, referring to Africa as a monolith lol.', "Almost every single country that has been colonized and decolonized has been through terrible problems in trying to find a national identity and in tackling issues that western powers have had hundreds of years of practice in.\n\nAfrica was one of the last continents to be decolonized, I'm not surprised it's a mess.", 'Countries in Africa had quite a long time to a) evolve and b) work on fixing their issues. And not everything can be attributed to evil white man (like its especially fashionable to do these days).\n\nAfrica despite being cradle of civilization definitely aint peak of it. And its not cause the rest of the world, but cause of them. Some countries there actually understand it and try to do something with it (Ethiopia could be decent example).\n\nSame way China is responsible for what it is today. Or majority of countries that didnt have ongoing war for decades.\n\nThere are huge cultural and evolutional differences between many corners of the world. Is it race specific? Probably not that much.\n\nReason why there is always some asian kid smarter than someone else is that people there have culture of heavy education for thousands of years. That and they are simply a bit smarter than average American. Which might be either result of thousands of years on focusing on improving themselves, or just racial gift.\n\nSame reason can be applied to different race and place. Aka, everyone is maker of their own luck. Or country.', '>Doesnt mention the hundreds of years of pillaging by the west but thats not surprising.\n\nNot the reason. They were already poor before Europeans arrived. The geography of Africa just sucks.', "Owie you hurt my feelings. \n\nSomeone calls you out for your bigoted comment and you name call? Hm...I think the community knows who is being really 'stupid' here", 'Ok I see the problem. You are unfamiliar with reasoning. When adults debate each other they often debate the logic of a given statement, rather than simply the statement itself (which I also did, over and over) \n\nhttps://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Logical_reasoning', 'Yes, violent crime. But let’s add any other type you think relevant.', "> It didn't identify a black person as a primate because people are primates, it would've misidentified because there wasn't enough non-white data.\n\nI think it would be more correct to say that it misidentified everyone else as not a primate because there wasn't enough data. All humans should've been classified as primates, mammals, etc.", 'That\'s like saying "triangle" is not a correct classification when the label "shape" already exists. Something can have more than one correct classification.', "i never said we should be 'purely' rational. i said we should be reasonable so that our emotional responses are appropriate.\n\nfor example, understanding that society is largely designed to facilitate the transfer of power from the many to the few is *why* i might seem 'paranoid' to someone who may not posses that perception.", 'feelings are the product of our perceptions based on our understanding of reality.\n\nwhen our understanding is not accurate the emotions produced are twisted, unproductive, and harmful. \n\nreverse causality is typical of our perceptions, because WE start with a goal and build towards it. that is how WE see our world.\n\nbut the universe is built from the bottom up. and looking at it backwards is, well, backwards.\n\nor in other words... things dont happen for a reason, but there is a reason for things that happen.', "How would you describe people who apparently think there's some massive cover up of crimes in white neighboorhoods which is distorting the data?", 'Mansa Musa: "You are not only wrong, you\'re also poor."', 'Wtf are you talking about?! Africa is one of the richest continents and thats why it was and is still being plundered!', "lol. Still not able to point it out. Going /r/IAmVerySmart and linking logical reasoning on Wikipedia doesn't change the fact that you can't back up your claim with the simplest of evidence.", "I agree with you for the most part, but this is obviously not true.\n\nIt is absolutely a software error for it to fail to identify black people as human beings.\n\nIt is not a crime against humanity or a symptom of late-stage-capitalism or whatever else some of the crazies are trying to argue though. Machine-learning software doesn't work perfectly on all inputs and sometimes messes up or does weird things, tell me something I don't already know.", "See how emotional we are? You're upset because we didn't immediately or obviously agree.\n\nBut, yes, of course we can ameliorate the emotional aspects and introduce as much accurate information as possible to increase our chances in a changing environment.", 'As a currently studying astrophysicist, "but the universe is built from the ground up" sorry what? Honestly, what do you mean by that? The ground up? what ground was there during inflation?  \n\n\nalso no, our perceptions are based on our automatic systems trying to get the best for us and then our brains making up the rest.  \n[https://research.birmingham.ac.uk/portal/files/16593563/Horr\\_Feeling\\_before\\_knowing\\_why\\_Cognitive\\_Affective\\_Behavioral\\_Neuroscience\\_2014.pdf](https://research.birmingham.ac.uk/portal/files/16593563/Horr_Feeling_before_knowing_why_Cognitive_Affective_Behavioral_Neuroscience_2014.pdf)  \n I\'m going to stop talking to you now as you have started spouting actual none truths and rubbish just to make you feel like you know what you\'re talking about..   \n\n\nBut seriously think about the last comment', 'This is the largest online bulletin forums in the world, everyone literally comes here to post their opinions and read each other opinions.  The guy above might be racist, but shouldn’t the appropriate response is to pick his comment apart rather than to silence him?', 'Gdp is more accurate than cherry picking 1 person', '? Rich by what measure? Gdp?', 'Well, reading isn’t your thing man-That’s for sure. Maybe try learning a trade. Plumbing, woodworking… it’s cool, we all have different strengths.', "It shouldn't be an error if it's a factually true classification.", 'i have no idea why you think i had any kind of emotional response there.\n\nand i dont consider clarifying my argument as disagreeing.\n\nbut i am satisfied you see the value in emotional responses being based on truth and logic.', "ground as in bottom you intentionally obtuse twit. atoms to molecules to materials to...\n\nwhatever. anyone who claims 'im aN aStroPHysiCist' like it has some relevance clearly doesnt even understand BASIC logical fallacies. which makes you unreasonable by definition.\n\nwhich should have been obvious from the moment you shared the thought feelings were more important than facts.\n\nyou utter fucking embarrassment.", 'No, racists should never be engaged, only told to fuck off.', 'Gdp is basically meaningless', 'https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Natural_resources_of_Africa\n\nAfrica was never poor.', 'Still can\'t do something as simple as quote in writing, where someone said something. Only talk in circles about "implications" and deflect with big brain statements.\n\nI imagine you don\'t work, because that kind of shit doesn\'t fly in the real work world; be that the corporate or blue-collar world. You must be a kid or a retired boomer.', 'Okay, so the *best*, *most useful* image classifier humans can possibly design is one that takes any image and identifies that the image contains or portrays some type of matter?', 'Oops! I was kidding but forgot to indicate as much. Sorry for that.\n\nYes, I absolutely do agree that a robust understanding of logic is extremely valuable in our current circumstances of modernity.', 'The enjoyment of Reddit for me comes in engaging people who don’t share my opinions and understanding the reasons for them.\n\nClearly you and I are different.  The poster above took his time to write a lengthy opinion that caught my interest, yours not so at all. \n\nI suppose none of this has any meaning to you but keep in mind that conflicts that aren’t resolved by dialogue will eventually be settled by violence.', 'Basically reason why today world has so many issues.\n\n"Only our opinion is right and just and everyone with different opinion should preferably die."\n\nAmerican by any chance?\n\nYea, rewriting history, blaming each other for sins of ppl that are hundreds of years dead. Picking out excuses "why some folks are not so good as others". Cause duh, racism for sure, no other common sense reason can exist.\n\nPeople just love having world filled with right versus wrong and nothing between, while world actually is pretty complicated and completely intertwined.\n\nIm not racist. I dont hate other people for their skin color.\n\nIf I dont like someone its general public with their stupid simplified views of things and that completely idiotic notion that "all men are created equal". Which obviously should mean all races are equal.\n\nI should specify that "not equal" in this case doesnt mean better or worse, but just different.\n\nI think that for example living as a tribe in Amazonian forest without any modern tech is incredibly cool thing (also rather difficult one) and its not worse than our tech filled lives.\n\nProblem starts when some  people move from places where they live in their tribal (or lets say a bit medieval/ancient ways) into modern society and they more or less stay as they were and are surprised that even after generations they didnt achieve anything else that being basically bottom of the society. So they start logically blaming society for them being unsuccessful.\n\nIt doesnt matter if that group of people is of different race, religion or anything. Problem there is that they went into civilization with no intention to adapt and when they obviously failed, they blame civilization for that.\n\nMore advanced civilizations are that way cause they were better concept and made others adapt instead of changing themselves. And asking or forcing that civilization to change wont bring anything good. Especially if it starts to be pushed way too far.\n\nSuch things usually end in conflict. One would thought America in this aspect learned they lesson in the past. But apparently its still valid that those who didnt learn from the history are forced to repeat it.', '[Human happiness is not meaningless](https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/exports/gdp-vs-happiness.png?v=11)', "Natural resources is not the same thing as wealth. They're similar but not the same thing. You're ignoring quality of life for one.", 'See now I’m just proud of you. You have learned that there are different ways to analyze the things we read. One way is appropriate for people who are interested in nuance and gaining a more profound understanding of the world around them, the other is more appropriate for those who are not. We simply had a problem of two colliding worlds here. I think you’re right. In your world of there is probably not as much appreciation for a logically-reasoned discussion or a satisfying turn of phrase. Likewise in mine, there is not as much patience for shallow, obvious conversation and interpretation of events. But how great is Reddit that it allows people like me to chat with people like you, something that would probably never happen in the real world?! Cheers mate!', "...Is one that takes any image and identifies all possible things it can identify in that image. So an image of a person should be classed homo sapien sapien, hominid, primate and mammal. If an algorithm can't do everything, it should identify as many of these as possible.", 'heh, tone is hard to convey in text.\n\ncheers', "Can't imagine being the kind of person to take an interest in blatantly racist drivel", 'That\'s a lot of words when you could just said "I\'m dumb and racist but don\'t want to admit it"', '"Adjusted for cross country price differences"\n\nSo what makes happiness more expensive in countries?  How exactly do I purchase happiness, and why is happiness in one place worth less than somewhere else?', "You are blatantly ignoring why countries that have stockpiles of natural resources end up poor. There arent many reasons why a country rich in gold (for example) is poor.\n\n Also, quality of life? According to which society's and historical era's standards? By any definition, Africa was doing ok until Europe meddled.\n\nNo matter how you look at it or try to dress it up, colonialism and exploitation from private companies wrecked the continent and left her bleeding.", 'Sure, but some typing and thinking exercise is sometimes fun. Not that you would know.', "First note that gdp per capita stands for the value of the goods and services that are produced in an economy adjusted for its population.\n\n> So what makes happiness more expensive in countries?\n\nWhy are goods and services more expensive in certain countries than others? This isn't really an important question to this discussion.\n\n>How exactly do I purchase happiness\n\nAgain not relevant. It's empirically true that gdp per capita correlates with happiness. I think you can speculate for yourself why goods and services would make you happier.\n\n>why is happiness in one place worth less than somewhere else?\n\nI never said that.", "First off, I don't deny there has been horrible exploitation of Africa. And many Africans today could have been wealthier if this hadn't happened. And it's still ongoing in many ways.\n\nBut despite this, it seems weird but the average African is doing better today than ever before in history. Not due to colonialism or exploitation of course. But because it's empirically true.\n\n> You are blatantly ignoring why countries that have stockpiles of natural resources end up poor. There aren't many reasons why a country rich in gold (for example) is poor.\n\nhttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Resource_curse\n\n>Also, quality of life? According to which society's and historical era's standards? By any definition, Africa was doing ok until Europe meddled.\n\nNo civilization was doing ok before the industrial revolution. [More than 90% of the population lived off of 1 dollar per day before the industrial revolution.](https://chrisblattman.com/files/2017/01/OurWorldInDataPoverty.png) The gdp per capita of Europe in 1800 was lower than of subsaharan Africa today. [Child mortality in Europe was many times higher in the late 1800's compared to subsaharan Africa today.](https://ourworldindata.org/child-mortality-in-the-past). And despite that horrible poverty in Europe, it was yet even worse in sub-Saharan Africa.", "If the amount of money flowing through a country correlates with happiness, then obviously that money is related to the happiness.  If the gdp is being adjusted for how much things cost in different countries, then obviously goods and services cost different amounts in different places.  If goods and services cost different amounts in different places, and goods and services equal happiness, then why is happiness more expensive in different places?  You're deflecting and avoiding the questions at hand.\n\nEdit: and that doesn't address what the measurement of happiness is in that chart.  It doesn't say at all.", "> You're deflecting and avoiding the questions at hand.\n\nI'm not. I genuinely did not know why you asked that question and I don't want the conversation to go off topic. But you've explained why you asked it now and I understand what you mean.\n\nSo why do goods and services cost something else in other countries? Because of different labour costs.", "That is just blatantly untrue, or do you think that mcdonalds doesn't exist elsewhere?", 'Do you deny that the cost of labour is different in other countries?', "Looks like A.I is the final solution.\n\n\nDidn't apple do the same thing and the only way they could fix it was to just not tag anything as gorillas?", 'Turns out Skynet was racist', "At least it wasn't the reverse.", "I wouldn't mind being label a Japanese macaque.", "We're all primates. For real.", "Aren't humans members of a particular sub-group of mammals known as primates?", 'Why are real news organizations writing in the style of The Onion? It’s indistinguishable.', 'That goes against FB policies , you will not be allowed to post or comment for 30 days', 'That must of been one ugly black dude to have AI say he looked like an ape 😂', 'Computer vision has problems analysing darker faces, as it’s a flat image our eyes do a better job than computers as we see in 3D. \n\nLooking at the whole body is important to determine shape. I think if they can’t determine if it’s a human or animal, then they should have a human review it before labelling it wrong and offending people.', 'These constant issues with AI, neural networks etc all show that we world\'s away from true AI. The neural network carries the same biases as the programmer and it can only learn from what it is shown. It\'s partly why we need to regulate AI because it\'s not impartial at all.\n\nEdit: This is a complex science that incorporates many different fields of expertise. While my comment above was meant to be simplistic the reddit brigade of "Well actually" experts have chimed in with technically true but misleading explanations. My original statement still holds true. The programmer holds some control over what the network learns, either by selectively feeding it data or by using additional algorithms to speed up the learning process.', 'I think that is technically correct.', 'I\'m back in FB jail because I challenged an anti-vaxer and AI said it was "bullying". I used no harsh language or anything. Yet they let QAnon idiots spread BS about vaxes all over the place. Marky Mark and the Facebook Bunch can eat my whole ass.', 'Might as well apologize for living since everyone is butthurt at everything', "But it's AI?", "Apologize for what, humans are primates, we're not plants.", 'Apology might be accepted if Facebook\'s A.I. puts "Qidiot" labels on people who post Covid disinformation.', 'Black people are primates. White people are primates. All people are primates.', 'This is the best tl;dr I could make, [original](https://www.nytimes.com/2021/09/03/technology/facebook-ai-race-primates.html) reduced by 80%. (I\'m a bot)\n*****\n> Sept. 3, 2021, 7:30 p.m. ET.Facebook users who recently watched a video from a British tabloid featuring Black men saw an automated prompt from the social network that asked if they would like to &quot;Keep seeing videos about Primates,&quot; causing the company to investigate and disable the artificial intelligence-powered feature that pushed the message.\n\n> In response, a product manager for Facebook Watch, the company&#039;s video service, called it &quot;Unacceptable&quot; and said the company was &quot;Looking into the root cause."\n\n> Ms. Groves, who left Facebook over the summer after four years, said in an interview that there have been a series of missteps at the company that suggest its leaders aren&#039;t prioritizing ways to deal with racial problems.\n\n\n*****\n[**Extended Summary**](http://np.reddit.com/r/autotldr/comments/phm0y3/facebook_apologizes_after_ai_puts_primates_label/) | [FAQ](http://np.reddit.com/r/autotldr/comments/31b9fm/faq_autotldr_bot/ "Version 2.02, ~596314 tl;drs so far.") | [Feedback](http://np.reddit.com/message/compose?to=%23autotldr "PM\'s and comments are monitored, constructive feedback is welcome.") | *Top* *keywords*: **Facebook**^#1 **company**^#2 **Black**^#3 **year**^#4 **people**^#5', 'technically correct', 'Black men are not primates.\n\nGood to know, I guess.\n\nThanks, new york times.', 'all humans are primates', 'This is Facebook, letting a it’s white supremist know, it still got its back.', "Either every video of a human gets labeled or it's racist.", "AI do tend to be racist, but didn't all videos of humans be labeled primates? If your gonna train AI to label things, shouldn't you aim for accuracy?", 'I mean it’s not wrong. Arguing it’s wrong, is arguing they aren’t human.', 'Another example of Facebook\'s racism. This is on Zuckerberg, who also learned homophobia in his upbringing in the New York suburbs. \n\nHe\'ll pay lip service to the notion of equality for queerfolk, but to his intimates, he\'ll say, once the homosexual is out of earshot: "they\'re really not our kind, dear." \n\nHe\'ll be every bit as racist as he is a homophobe; just look at Facebook\'s documented encouragement of genocidal hatred against the Rohingya in Burma\'s Rakhine State. \n\nYeah, Zuckerberg is an evil, hypocritical asshole.', 'So just a question, does this mean AI is racist or was it just because it was programmed by a white guy? Asking for a friend.', "It's only copying racist Facebooks users. Facebook won't correct them or ban them because money. You did it to yourselves Facebook.", 'It’s funny how racists think they can hide their racism because the people they’re racist against are too dumb to realize. It’s sad when people who aren’t racists but have lived their lives around people who are deny they’ve picked up any of their “friends” or families bad ideology. Yet in every instance and at every chance reality smacks. You’re so racist you taught an inanimate object to model your bias. Meanwhile us POC are just living our lives as best we can dealing with your irrational BS.', "So when are we cancelling Facebook? \n\nOh right leftist ideology doesn't see their own ignorance.", 'All the people seeing no problem with this and making jokes are the reason racism will never cease smh', 'It depends on what they were doing', "\t\n\n\n“Aren't people primates?”\n\ntechnically yes, the way Facebook meant it, no", 'Feature not a bug for FB in a lot of markets.', 'If raising a child can imprint biases, why shouldn’t AI observing us do the same? Yet another reason I am against AI advancement.', 'AI racism. We are now living in the weirdest time line.', 'Time for teacher bot to make a new test!', '“acebook”', 'I’m getting Deja Vu, didn’t this happen already?', "I know it's racist but that's kinda funny lmao", 'These are very interesting times. We need another AI to determine if the first AI came up with the "right truth".', 'A.I should apologize fast', "what's worse is news media amplifying the embarrassing mistake.", 'Burn Loot Murder', 'Interesting thing is that AI is designed to look at things unbiasedly. There are plenty of black people that do resemble Apes. Heck, I resemble a mere cat. Anyone who argues otherwise is in denial and has in fact thought the same at one time or another. However, I would be pissed off too if I was a black man seeing that so I sympathize with them.', 'This so funny lmao', 'What if white ppl are not primates but 👽👽👽', 'This just shows how uneducated some people are on how digital technology works. They see software malfunction and their first thought is that the computer is racist. Do they even realize how absurd that sounds?', 'Yeah, Blame it on the AI, not the programmer, Right!!', 'Developers of the AI is not directly dealing with such problem. Basically they develop the ML algorithm, but how this algorithm actually does the job is not that clear. And actually that’s our goal because we want AI “think” by themselves. \n\nIf we want to prevent the problem, best way I think is to train the algorithm with tons of primates and black peoples photos before every release. But I think this approach is also racial, well, maybe even more racial than the original problem.', 'AI is racist', 'I mean AI isnt wrong, but this is the solution to virtue signaling "its the computers fault"', 'This is too funny to not have been some kind of internal prank', 'always rogue ai, computer glitch, corrupt algorithms the Russians or the Chinese... \n\nhow about "the people that provided the training material for the ai at Facebook are racist fucks"\nor "in our aspiration for quick cash by exploiting racist tendencies in our users, we got caught, won\'t happen again... being caught that is)', 'Can I be a polar bear 🐻\u200d❄️?', 'They failed to add the Japanese macaque to the\n\nAlgorithm', "Google Photos, but I wouldn't be surprised if Apple has also been hit by this issue.", 'Humans are primates', 'Ok if the machines want to kill us and see humanity as a plague, sowing racist and disinformation is a great way to make sure we cannibalize ourselves.', 'We are primates', 'It’s also anti-vaxx', 'I dunno, terminators seemed to kill humans pretty indiscriminate of race...', 'Who do you think designs these algorithms?', 'Humans are primates', 'If Skynet attacks humans only, then black men are safe.', "I'd rather be labeled a Sugg Macaque.", 'I want to crubstomp macaques', "I think the reason people are upset is because it isn't putting the primates label in the video because humans are in it. It is only applying the label to videos with certain groups.\n\nIt's important to note that this is really machine learning which is not really artificial intelligence. Machine learning needs human oversight and intervention to make sure the algorithms are working correctly.", 'The most uneducated parts of America strongly disagree with you.  😜', 'Was afraid to make this comment. Glad to see Reddit has some sense.', 'I think the problem was solely labeling 1 race as "primates"', "And we're great apes, too! Chimpanzees, Bonobos, Gorillas, Orangutans, and Humans.\n\nOOOK!", 'Then it should also label white folk, no?', 'Yeah just a very specific group of us don’t like being called that for, certain reasons.', 'If it could determine if it needed help wouldnt  it then be intelligent not AI', 'Or people should stop getting offended by everything', 'Lol our eyes see only in 2d, irl or conputer.', "It's essentially self-editing/self tuning pattern recognition software", 'None of them know what they’re talking about either. It’s funny and a little bit sad seeing everyone try to talk about something they don’t understand', 'Remember twitters AI that turned racist within hours of it going live? Good times lol \n\nA nice reminder of far we haven’t come as a species.', 'As a ML engineer can you stop spweing bullshit? We dont put a freaking ounce of personality to the AI', 'I don’t know how I should take that comment.', 'Delete Facebook', 'That is why I deleted facebook', 'Clearly, you know nothing about the type of people that work on Facebook.', 'That\'s one way to look at it and in this case maybe the best way. The other way to look at it is that someone who builds a mechanism is responsible for it. When someone builds a battery that explodes, it\'s not the battery\'s fault, it\'s their fault.\n\nAn AI depends on its design and training data. Garbage in, garbage out. It\'s quite frequent that AI is fed with biased data, leading to discrimination. For instance, face recognition AI tends to be fed with a disproportionate amount of white males and therefore tends to be worst when asked to recognise black women. Combine that with it being used for police investigations using facial recognition to decide on who to investigate and you\'ve got systemic discrimination perpetuated by AI.\n\nI don\'t think the "misidentified as primates" case is worth getting outraged about. It hurt some people\'s feelings, Facebook says sorry, changes nothing, hopes nobody notices and honestly, there are more important cases to worry about.', 'If you prime an AI with bias in its learning materials, it will be biased. This is actually one of the main issues AI scientists are trying to tackle:  how to make AI more objective and less simply perpetuating existing social biases', 'AI is racist... and so are you.', 'Are people anti science?', 'Right so this prompt pops up for everyone …right', 'Because it’s insulting. Would you call your own mother an animal?', 'There are a fair amount of non-primate, non-plants species as well.', 'If you prime an AI with bias in its learning materials, it will be biased. This is actually one of the main issues AI scientists are trying to tackle: how to make AI more objective and less simply perpetuating existing social biases', 'If you prime an AI with bias in its learning materials, it will be biased. This is actually one of the main issues AI scientists are trying to tackle: how to make AI more objective and less simply perpetuating existing social biases', 'They are designed to analyze information unbiasedly and accurately. It’s only when they’re too accurate that people have a problem.', 'The persons down voting my comment are obvious shills Or employees of Mark Zuckerberg.', 'Wait what? Why are white people only racist? Cmon dude. Your being prejudice while being angry about prejudice. Also what’s a white person? Where does it start and end. I’m curious. Like are Turkish people white? Is it only Europeans? Are Egyptians white? How about Albanians?', 'Exactly…the AI learned from datasets of human-tagged images/videos.  If that original data ingestion was full of racist tags, well guess what you just trained your AI to be?', 'I’d implore you to visit any inner city and view that “living our lives and best we can.”', 'We are all primates. Our bodies were starting to adjust for the environments where our far-flung ancestors existed. Some needed broader nostrils, some needed smaller ears. 🤷🏻\u200d♀️', 'No it’s people like you who are ruining the party. Look up Louis ck and Patrice O’Neal on opie and Anthony talking about the origin of racial slurs. Most people are making jokes and most normal people laugh at funny shit. Human waste gets offended by shit that has nothing to do with them.', 'It’s inevitable tho', 'It’s not racism. I’d implore you to look up the definition of the word.', 'You are not wrong.', 'We are the greatest of apes', 'That has been disproven.', "Eh, I don't necessarily agree.\nI think classifying humans in a different family is important. We have a pretty massive biological difference from primates. Humans don't have penis bones", 'I’ve been thinking it’s all too convenient by design.  China has been light years ahead in quantum computing and artificial intelligence… I wouldn’t be surprised if all we are seeing today is a result of ai', "Yes we are, but it wasn't tagging anyone except black people.", 'White leftists in silicon valley?', 'Who?', 'If their system labeled all humans as primates, no problem.  If it labeled only Black men as primates, big problem.', 'Then go to a black neighborhood and start calling everybody a "primate" and report back what happens.', 'This! And you can bet this exact video will be on the "test" used to teach the next, better iteration of this machine.', "> It's important to note that this is really machine learning which is not really artificial intelligence. Machine learning needs human oversight and intervention to make sure the algorithms are working correctly.\n\nKind of. It needs oversight when being trained. But after training it needs no intervention.\n\nThe key point is that the training set apparently didn't include POCs. This is similar to how test dummies have historically been the body shape of a man and how medical tests have also historically taken place on men, meaning women are under represented and therefore at greater risk.\n\nIt's 2021, almost 22, why are training sets so homogenenous? These issues have long well been known about. \n\nIf you can't get a valid training set, you shouldn't be messing with AI. Period.", 'Machine learning is a subset of artificial intelligence.', 'I usually just explain things like this as "computers are dumb". Yeah, people think they\'re smart, but they really aren\'t. Unfortunately, people always compare computers to brains, when they\'re just not that. I don\'t care who makes the claim, brains are markedly more complex than computers are, and process information in a completely different way. I\'ve even said, and I\'ll do so here and now, also, that if we ever generate any kind of consciousness, the technology we use likely won\'t be computers as we currently understand them today. We can sure fake it. But we can\'t actually do it now. \n\nIf anyone was actually outraged, they just didn\'t understand computers (which, not their fault, lots of people don\'t).', 'Lol, you mean 49%', "We're alright apes. Dunno about *great*", 'Terry Pratchett fan or no?', 'Return to monke', 'We are also monkeys, for any reasonable biological definition of that group (making it equal to simiiformes, or simians).', 'Yup, I was just waiting for the first person to play the "well technically" card, while completely ignoring context.', 'This isn’t even AI - it’s just machine learning', 'Nope because it’s not an intelligent life form. there is a percentage degree of certainty when matching images. A human has to decide the parameters for the image recognition anyway, either way it’s human error.', 'Well obviously not you', 'Plenty of people. What a silly question.', 'You do realise that you have two eyes? \n\nCan you watch a 3D movie, in 3D with one eye closed? No\n\n[Why Do We See in 3D?](https://www.livescience.com/32580-why-do-we-see-in-3-d.html)', "The coder does impart a bias determined by how diverse the training set it. The bias allows ignorance to thrive where it shouldn't. As evidenced by this post. The coder left out POCs, and now the AI is ignorant.\n\nTraining set validity is literally the first thing you learn about in AI, and before that, statistics.  If your AI is making such silly mistakes (while being live), then you should reconsider your methods.", 'So the software engineer just wrote the platform code - and the people who trained it were the racists?    Sounds about right.   Makes me wonder if we repeated this experiment and let people of color train the AI, would it have the same bias?', "It was a Microsoft chatbot meant to learn from interacting with humans. And actual Nazis online thought it would be some great fun to bombard it with Nazi propaganda so it turned Nazi. That's how humans work too. If you are raised by racists and interact almost exclusively with racists, you'll almost certainly be a racist too.", 'Someone should have studied harder, you obviously impart biases based on your training data provided', 'I’m assuming you accomplish this by acknowledging and confronting your own conscious and unconscious biases when creating a model?\n\nHas this process worked well for you? What kinds of biases you hadn’t thought about before have you encountered in yourself and your colleagues?', 'Technically humans are primates', 'Take it as a morally devoid technicality.', "Oh, I'm well aware. Very similar to Reddit admins.", "Huh...? I'm saying thats it's AI? Like it's not conscious so this isn't purposeful? Lmao", 'AI has done racist things in the past like this as well because it picks up cues from society at large.', 'Im a research biologist, and I don’t believe in AI being created with a capitalist framework, or just AI advancement in general. I believe it’s a poor idea to further separate the gap that people in academics and the laymen have. I believe AI should exist when every single person is intelligent enough to understand all the philosophical and technical consequences of the technology. Social media is a great example of this, it could’ve been the next step in creating the next stage in human evolution in terms of language and knowledge transfer, but we’re too addicted to self gratification that it’s having a net negative effect, I view AI the same way. In my early 20s for context.', 'Your mother was an animal in bed last night!  Heyooo!', 'What are we if not animals? Do you identify yourself as a plant?', "Sure, that is our Kingdom. Animal is just another way to describe an organism that is multicellular, eukaryotic, and heterotrophic. All humans are primates, that is our Order, which describes certain features like our large brains.\n\n\nI don't find human taxonomy insulting I think it's amazing, if you go back far enough we share a common ancestor with a freaking banana.", 'Every chance I get', 'Why are you being downvoted', 'I think only Polish and Germans are white, everyone else are just honkeys', 'You aren’t making the obvious point that you think you are. I literally have zero idea what you’re talking about.', 'People like me? You mean people who aren’t racist/prejudice assholes? I’m fine with that. I can’t wait till you all die out', 'Training data matters. I heard it looked at white people and called them ducks.', 'You are correct, I do not. But I would be very surprised if there was no programming involved, either coding or thought the information supplied to the AI', 'One of the dumbest ironies is that in pretty much every culture, calling someone an "ape" is an insult, despite the fact that apes are objectively what we are.', 'Not if we wipe ourselves out in the next century or so.', '[Apes together strong](https://i.kym-cdn.com/entries/icons/original/000/032/196/apes.jpg)', 'Apes together strong', 'Humans are primates– (google)\n\na diverse group that includes some 200 species. Monkeys, lemurs and apes   \nare our cousins, and we all have evolved from a common ancestor over the  \n last 60 million years.', 'That is just factually wrong.', 'Lay off the DMT bro', 'Wonder what it would tag a shaved ape as', 'Primates?', 'I think it\'s obvious why the A.I. labelled them as "primates".', 'Your comment is as bad, “any predominantly black neighborhood is violent”.', 'That people tend to react unfavorably to being called an ape is completely irrelevant to the fact that, objectively, we are all apes.', "Do you expect to be any different than if you do the same in a 'white' neighborhood?", 'Absolutely incorrect', 'Bonobos are definitely great though', 'Ook?', 'Shhhh! Science is not allowed even though it suggests nothing but cosmetical differences.', 'Machine learning is a type of A.I', 'And the rye stìll only sees in 2d vision, what is your point?', 'Lack of contrast in poorly lit scenes will result in these types of classification errors for darker skin types regardless of the dataset quality. You need high level scene context in order to resolve this long term, i.e. the classifier needs to be smarter and also operate in the temporal domain, since the features in single frames are not reliable enough.', 'Look I\'m going to explain this to you as best I can as you genuinely seem ignorant of this process rather than trying to be an ass. \n\nThese processes do not work by some guy going "Ok so this picture\'s a bit like a black person, this picture\'s a bit like a white person, this one\'s a bit like a primate, now I\'ll just code these features into the program". None of that is how these work.\n\nHere is how they work. Basically at their heart these Neural Networks are **very** basic image pattern recognisers that are trained to apply a series of patterns in specific ways to learn how images are formed. What does this mean in laymens terms? Well take an image of a human eye. How do *you* know its an eye? Well because it has an iris and a pupil and they are human shaped etc. But how do you know it has those features? Well your brain has drawn lines around those features. It has determined where the edge of each of those features; the eyes, nose, the whole face, where all of that, is.\n\nThe AI is doing the same thing. It is figuring out where the edge of things are. So all it does it just says "there\'s an edge here" or "there\'s a corner here". It then figures out where all of the edges and corners it "thinks" are relevent are. This is when the magic happens. You then basically ask it, based on the edges it has drawn is the image a human or a primate? It then tries to maximise its \'score\'. It gets a higher score the more it gets correct. It repeats this process millions of times until it thinks it\'s good at the process. That\'s all. Now if a racist got into the part of the process where the test images where given to it and marked a whole bunch of black people as primates then, yeah, it\'d be more likely to mark black people as primates but this has nothing to do with the people who coded the thing being racist or not.\n\nPeople who code Neural Networks do not necessarily have any control over what tasks it performs. Do you think the creators of Google\'s Alpha Deepmind which played both Chess and Go better than any human are better players than the current world champions? Or understand the respective games better? How and what tasks a Neural Network perform are based on the data it is fed, and in this case, Garbage In, Garbage Out.', 'Not defending but just to clear things. No humans train the neuronal network. They just kick of the process. If human hand select the data then there would be racist at hand. But that is hand selected is very unlikley we are speaking about 10k-100k training examples per target pbject. Normally in such big data processes some classes (target objects) are not as many as others. There are solutions to this but seems like those were not (enough) used. So the model cant learn to differ. Again not defending the occoured labeling but in this case most likely the model is just trained on are bad data set which doesnt fit our reality. So to answer your question. Yes of a colored machine learning engineer kick of the process it turns out just the same. \n\n— source im a machine learning engineer', 'Most datasets are so fact based it dont matter', 'Not society at large but the people who develop it have an unconscious bias that affects the outcome of the machine learning.', 'r/iamverysmart', 'Lemurs, monkeys, apes, tarsiers and lots of (mostly) white male humans aren’t bothered by racists or their algorithms.', 'Could be a fungus, which are neither.', 'Something can be true and insulting at the same time.', 'You’re such a primate.', "Because there's a lot of angry young white dudes on reddit who have very little ability to recognise or acknowledge race/sex bias and get even more angry when confronted with it", 'Because he told the truth meme', 'Because humans ARE primates and claiming everything is always racist is childish', "Nobody gives a fuck about what you think that's bullshit\n\nRacist", 'You think whites aren’t equal to blacks. It’s ok to admit it.', 'No people who can’t take jokes. I grew up in the north east I’ve heard people drop hard Rs not at a Blake person ever in public. no where the amount of Times I was called white boy by a black guy. And I don’t hate those black people for being racist. I just know they don’t know any better. You are the type of person that like consumes garbage reality TV shows and doesn’t think. A wet sock probably has more of a personality than you. Also you wish death on people but saying words is bad.', 'In r/wallstreetbets and r/cryptocurrency aka general “investing culture” it’s not an insult lmao', 'We aren’t apes scientifically. People need to stop saying that.', "We'll surely be the last apes standing therefore still the greatest", 'Stop the Planet of the Apes. I Want to Get Off!', 'Google is a biased search engine that promotes mainstream narratives. You are Asian and therefore come from a country of censored information. You wouldn’t be able to comprehend what I’m talking about without external opinion interjection, as to if you were being given misinformation in Google’s search engine. Which, is why I forgive your ignorance. If you need a comparison, try using the less censored TOR onion web browser. Google was useful 7 years ago and was the perfect search tool. However, that is simply not the case today with their censorship. Are also aware that each country of a communist rule like the Asian countries for one example, issue laws that companies like Google must obey to keep their search engines available in your country? That aside from Google’s own personal company censorship, you also have your government’s censorship to sift through.', 'TBH most of them are about equally smart\n\nEdit: referring to the people designing the algorithms. Does nobody understand context?', "Now who's stereotyping. It works for any ethnicity.  I'm Jewish but if I went to a heavily Jewish neighborhood and starting calling everyone a slur, I'm bound to get my ass beat.", "While that's technically true, it's the connotation that counts. There's a long history of black people being equated to monkeys or primitive humans", 'I know you’re an ape for sure. My ass is still sore from the other day bro. I don’t know what got into you', 'Their was just an article that was popular on reddit celebrating that over 50% of America now believes in evolution, I was  referencing that', 'What a fitting username for that comment', 'Any species that handles just about everything with copious amounts of sex will always be considered great imo', 'This happened because the people training the network didn\'t check with enough of a cross section of people before publishing the network. Either because they didn\'t care or because the publishers only checked with photos of those they thought of as "real people"... to quite certain republican senators.', '... And not because the ai are programmed by all white dudes?', 'I honestly thought I was going to get downloaded for my post.', 'lol are you trolling? Are you seriously saying that your vision has no depth perception?', 'Fortunately the rest of us also have brains.', "I never said it was intentional, but that's (not being intentional, but the actual miscategorization of POCs) exactly what happened. Down vote all you want, doesn't make it less true. The only reason the AI couldn't tell the difference is because it doesn't know the difference. Which means those images weren't properly represented. If there's another way AI works, I'd love to know.", "Your imagination is wrong. Three of the most-cited training datasets for testing facial recognition software are 81% white (https://arxiv.org/abs/1901.10436). It's [not a new problem](https://www.wired.com/story/photo-algorithms-id-white-men-fineblack-women-not-so-much/?intcid=inline_amp).", "Yes, but if not enough features are discovered in the image and the guess isn't statistically significant due to whatever noise/it being a terrible image, the AI should report back that it can't compute an answer.\n\nFor example, if this was an ANN and you have 5 output values all at 19, but ones at 24, report back that it's too close to call and an answer can't be derived.", "I'm a software developer and have worked on developing neural networks and training models. My explanation was simplified but holds true. The programmer holds some control over what the algorithm learns.", ">Look I'm going to explain this to you as best I can as you genuinely seem ignorant of this process rather than trying to be an ass.\n\nI'm not ignorant of this at all. In my graduate machine learning course we applied heuristic algorithms to optimize the Neural Network. This is pretty standard to speed up learning, it's at this process that programmer bias creeps in.  I'm not a machine learning engineer, my expertise is mobile and embedded software development. Still I have experience in it from projects that I worked on in both school and industry, but I am not mathematician machine learning expert. It's not true to claim that the neural network is free from human bias especially combined with additional algorithms.", '>Not defending but just to clear things. No humans train the neuronal network. They just kick of the process\n\nWell we help select the model that they work from.', 'If you only provide a fraction of data about POC for example that‘s directly imparting biases upon the algorithm', 'In my ML class, I had an assignment to train digit recognition, but the training data contained no images of the number 7. To the surprise of nobody, the program had no concept of the number 7, and only very rarely reported a 7: it was quite literally biased against the number 7 despite the fact that 7ness is completely objective and factual. Even in scenarios where the AI is working with in an entirely fact-based environment, it is still very important to provide diverse training data.', "It's not labeling white people as primates, so you can see why this situation was problematic.", 'Not true. AI makes these mistakes because of oversimplified rules. Example how it could have worked: Humans and other primates have a similar shape. To differentiate it might have used another rule, like overall color. There are barely any non-human primates (that I know of) that are white, so to detect a human with white skin is very easy: human shape, bright color. There are however a lot of dark colored non-human primates, which has a lot more overlap with humans with dark skin, especially depending on the lighting. This means that there needs to be a different, likely more complex rule to differentiate them. This makes it easier to mix up the two categories and make the wrong prediction.', 'Everyone has some conscious bias, and it could possibly affect the rules logic put into place, but you also have to look at the pool of data that its being fed.', "I don't know if the algorithm or the data scientists who wrote it are racist, but I know that current AI recognition technology just sucks. It gets it wrong with light pigment skin pretty often but nowhere near the level of darker pigment skin. Machine learning relies on training with really big sample datasets, and foreign cultures/minorities are heavily underrepresented in the benchmark runs.\n\nI'd be more concerned of racists especially in law enforcement using this technology to target minorities and the confrontations that occur from misidentifying people as criminals.", 'Keep the change ya filthy animal', "Just because you dont like something doesn't mean its not true", 'I guess you do because you responded. 😂', 'I *know* human dna is 99.9% the same. It’s ok if you don’t grasp the realities of that.', 'You’re not black bro you don’t know our plight. So respectfully fuck off', 'Correct it means you most likely hodl GME lol or least few months ago', 'We definitely are apes scientifically. We are hominids, or “great apes”.', "Yeah I'll never forget the beating I got when I went to Little Italy calling everyone Chapos.", 'Or to get the police called?', 'I get that, but my point is that the connotation is a direct result of human arrogance. We think we\'re "too good to be apes", even though that\'s exactly what we are.', "\n\nThat's why I prefer to hang out with the Bonobos - the sweet sweet sex.", "Just as I expected, most people dont know how these things are trained and their competencies and ascribe the usual personal social motivations they've come to expect, be it real or imagined.", "I don't think skynet cares about downloading your mind", "I'm downloading you right now sorry bro", 'xdm>jdownloader', 'But that’s exactly what it did in this case. It did not have confidence that the subject was a human and so did not return that result. It did have sufficient confidence to determine that the subject was a primate, which is technically accurate. The only real bias here is in our reaction to the classification, not the classification itself. What you’re talking about seems to be building in bias into the system to suppress certain labels because they make us feel uncomfortable, even if correct.', "Oh of course but there have been some pretty high profile cases of AI being trained in ways the programmers did not intend such as microsoft's chat bot. The point is it wouldn't be out of the realm of possibility for one bad actor or a group of bad actors such as 4chan to deliberately attempt to sabotage the training of a neural network if they knew one was being trained.", "Hey man, I think you might have me confused with someone else. This response was to a different user not you. I never claimed you seemed ignorant. Although you might be on a different account for some reason... However in your reply you also made a statement I never made.\n\n> It's not true to claim that the neural network is free from human bias especially combined with additional algorithms.\n\nAt no point have I ever made this claim. In fact quite the opposite. What I am saying is that the code does not dictate the data, and given your background in NN I'm sure you already know this. From what I know of large NN projects however the coders may have less control over the data sets as they may need more outside influence in order to get the data they need. That's all I was saying.", 'There is/was a type of ML that was/is rules based.\nThese algos use deep net tech. Completely different thing and not rule based. \nI use is/was because although still in existence the rule based methods are almost never used now that the data sets are large enough to be able to use deep neural net models.', 'I know that society as a whole is racist and that the people within are subject to that force individually and systemically. I know that the language used to write the code that makes up the rules on which the AI operates were developed by individuals who live their entire lives within this framework and whether knowingly or not -naturally imprint this in the language that makes all AI function. \n\nI’m more concerned that people are comfortable with their knowledge that racists exist as police officers and are more intrigued in challenging inaccurate tools in the hands of racists -than the removal of racists themselves.', 'I didn’t say it’s not true. Read the comment you replied to again.', 'To comment yes, about who you think is actually white no.', 'Yea we share 98.8% with chimps what’s your point?', 'Ok you’re not Anglo Saxon stop appropriating my culture by speaking English.', 'He’s a clown', 'Is watching MTV reality garbage part of your plight? Mad at someone else for your shit life. Why not start out blaming your family and your community before you start blaming people you never met because of their skin color. I’ll have you know my skin may not be brown(technically you’re not black either) but I was raised extremely poor and to drug addict parents. I had a very similar plight because I grew up around inner cities constantly being belittled by black kids for being white. Please fuck off with you victim card. You sound like a Karen.', 'Yea but “ape” is so misleading.', "So you're saying racism is bad and we should all treat each other as the humans we are? In that case, I entirely agree.", 'I\'ve written my own TensorFlow classifiers, but suit yourself. \n\n**The personal social motivations are in the people who decide when the network is "Good Enough".** If the team cared, they would have done the additional testing. In the same way that if you cared, you wouldn\'t have made the "technically it\'s right" comment you did earlier. Saying "It\'s just software" doesn\'t fly, people write software, and those people decide how to allocate testing priorities depending on what they think is important.', "Mr. Stark, I don't feel so good.", "I get it, I've also worked with ML, most in college and briefly at work, where I mostly do devops, but started with computer vision. \n\nI also agree with everything you stated. \n\nThat being said, there's obviously some ignorance in the AI. That ignorance can be solved with more representation of POCs. Which is all I'm advocating for. The miscategorization is either due to malice or ignorance; I'm saying it's ignorance. And that even though it's ignorance, google is one of the frontrunners for employing AI and they should do better.", "> But that’s exactly what it did in this case. It did not have confidence that the subject was a human and so did not return that result.\n\nYes, but it was still labeled as primate. If the distinction between primate and human isn't significant enough, don't print primate out either. Only print answers that are significant. If the answer was significant enough to say the image was primate but not human, then that's some serious ignorance that should be accounted for.\n\nWhat's easier to spot: thick hair over an entire body or facial features? Sure, it depends on the picture, but it would be trivial to teach an AI to use body features as well as facial features when categorizing animals. And I'm sure it's already being done. \n\n> What you’re talking about seems to be building in bias into the system to suppress certain labels because they make us feel uncomfortable, even if correct.\n\nAgain, I DO NOT think the bias is intentional. So I'd appreciate if you and others would stop putting words in my mouth.\n\nI'll reference the crash test dummies again to show how bias creeps into scope without even realizing it.", 'My machine learning professor who helped pioneer the field at Bell Labs showed us how you can train it to identify circles  but in practice have it identify squares.', 'Self reporting racism ignorer here ^^', 'How are neural networks not based on inferred rules?', 'It being a deep net only means that the rules are more complex and inferred instead of defined by the developer. Above is just an example of a common kind of rules using basic features like color and shape that could be inferred by the algorithm to have a good result quickly.', 'Shh bby, is ok', 'Say the guy with nothing but dodge coin posts. Loser.', 'You big mad 😂 diving into my profile cause I disagree with you, you’re irrelevant and I’ll forget this exchange happened within the hour & you’ll still be hurt lol leave me alone weirdo', 'It perfectly encapsulates what humanity is, that’s why we are defined as such.', '>if the team cared\n\nAbout protecting the sensitive feelings of irrational people? Special test cases for special people is a marketing consideration.', "Yeah but what you are advocating for is programming specific bias in so the answers don't cause offense, regardless of their accuracy. What you're saying is that labeling a black person as a primate, even though technically not inaccurate, makes people feel bad, and we should specifically design in features to prevent these types of outputs so that people don't feel bad. That is the definition of bias, just toward your sensitivities instead of against them. You seem to think that because programmers did not specifically program in anti-racist features, this makes them biased, either consciously or unconsciously. I don't agree. Developers have an interest in their code operating correctly over the widest possible dataset. Errors of any kind degrade the value of the system and developers seek to minimize errors as much as possible. The fact that edge cases occur and sometimes the results read as offensive to humans is NOT evidence of bias in its development - it is evidence of the classifier's or dataset's limitations and can be used to improve results in future iterations through gathering more data on those edge cases, much in the same way that self driving systems improve over time with more observation of real-world driving scenarios.\n\nYou can advocate for anti-racist (or other offense) filters on classifier outputs and this is probably even a good idea, but it is a totally separate activity from the design and training of the convnet itself.", 'Diving into. I know it took a whole 3 seconds. I just did the work. I didn’t blame others and sit around for a check watching mtv. I’m “big mad” what an adjective “big” you learn that one in school? Then you try t make it like I’m weird and I’m going to remember this. I shit on 10 people an hour on Reddit. I don’t remember many of them. \n\nJust remember while you’re drooling over reality garbage on MTV you’re helping a company that’s probably helped bring down more of the black community than segregation. You probably don’t even know who Frederick Douglas was but you know who George Floyd is I bet. I bet you could name like 20 talentless trap rappers off the top of your head. But not one Jimi Hendrix song or James brown song. I know plenty of whites people who listen to hip hop and rap. It’s hard to find black people who listen to rock and roll or anything but rap and r&b.', 'Wow, what a hot take.\n\n> What you\'re saying is that labeling a black person as a primate, even though technically not inaccurate, makes people feel bad, and we should specifically design in features to prevent these types of outputs so that people don\'t feel bad\n\nYea, when they are public facing. Just go to your nearest store and start calling people primates. See how well it goes. Doesn\'t mean you\'re wrong.  \n\nIts also incorrect, considering "primate" is not the desired output. \n\nTBH, your insistence of bias being intentional make me believe youve never worked with AI, ML or statistics in general. Go read on  bias and the MANY different ways there are to try and remove them from your maths. Its an uphill battle, but one i think google has the resources to overcome.\n\n> it is evidence of the classifier\'s or dataset\'s limitations and can be used to improve results \n\nOr, in other words... a bias due to insufficient data....', 'How are they based on probabilities and how does that exclude inferred rules? I have yet to find a classification algorithm that does not apply rules based on a features set, so I would be interested to know.', "I feel like Google's AI ran into this same issue but don't recall how they ended up fixing it.\n\nedit: they [totally did](https://www.forbes.com/sites/mzhang/2015/07/01/google-photos-tags-two-african-americans-as-gorillas-through-facial-recognition-software/) and ended up just admitting defeat and removing gorillas from the database entitely.  Poor lighting > facial recognition.  :D", "*Facebook users who recently watched a video from The Daily Mail featuring clips of Black men in altercations with white police officers and civilians received a prompt asking if they would like to “keep seeing videos about Primates,” the New York Times reported late Friday.*\n\nDamn, FB. That's some old south levels of racism in that tone", '[All humans are primates](https://www.smithsonianmag.com/science-nature/why-are-humans-primates-97419056/), but there is a racist connotation here where Black people are apes. It needs to go.', 'There are way too many people getting offended at the specter of other people getting offended in this thread', 'I think the reason is that gorillas are black/brown humanoid animals.', 'An aboriginal Australian football player was forced to quit the game because every single time he got close to the goal posts spectators would throw bananas at him. The white players did not receive the same treatment. So sure, all humans are primates- but not all humans are abused for it. When it truly is "all humans" getting bananas catapulted at their head during a football match give me a call, but until then stop pretending you don\'t believe racism exists.', 'Yikes 🤦🏻\u200d♀️', 'for what it is worth we all are primate apes', 'Lol Apple’s photo scanning AI thinks my cat is a dog (yet they thought that it’s good enough to detect illegal photos)', 'The real problem here is probably that like many facial recognition programs, Facebook’s AI is drawing on a database that accidentally defines white men as default humans and so the less you look like a white dude named Steve, the more likely the computer is to get confused and decide that you’re not really a human. \nThis kind of oversight is a big oof, but it seems to be often based in the programmers often being white dudes themselves and not bothering to test further after the bot can recognize them.\nIt’s also a real thing that some automatic sinks/hand dryers can’t recognize black hands because the sensor has only been designed to detect pale hands and mistakes darker hands for shadows.\n\nThe bots don’t mean to do racism, they just ain’t been raised right.', 'Wow.', 'If Facebook played by their own rules they would cancel themselves.', 'But they are. We all are.', '😉', 'Facebook should deplatform itself like they do to other people they disagree with.', 'Not an accident. Another trump fan doing there thing. Anonymous and cowardly, bit you best believe they heard the message', 'Just something else to complain about.', "Yes let's put Facebook in charge of censoring people.\n\nHey it's not the government doing it right libs?", 'Ironically labeling any human as a primate is 100% correct.', "You would need to feed it even more data and make the test harder for the AI and then wait for what I assume will be a painfully long time until one passes then pray that there's isn't another edge case. Although I'm going to assume that option wasn't feasible given the end result of their attempt.", "Somebody's getting fired.\n\nBetter be, at least.", "Humans are a subspecies of african ape, that goes for all of us.\n\nIt's only racist if it's said as if it's just one group, like black people.", '/r/technicallythetruth', 'It would have been fine if one were white, I think.', "I mean, this is reddit... If you're not offending someone you're doing it wrong /s", 'I agree with you. There seems to be a lot of people in this thread don’t or refuse to see it', 'Primates, but not apes.  Humans are hominids.', 'I’m not sure they do. I think that they are obligated ethical land legally not to have kiddie porn on a shared service. That’s why it’s so easy to avoid their photo scanning by just opting not to save your pics to the cloud', 'Congratulations', 'Yeah, obviously. But you\'re either being pedantic here OR really don\'t understand the history about black people being compared to apes in a negative way.\n\nRacists used also used to literally believe that Africans were "less evolved" and more closer related to apes than other races of human. \n\nSo yeah, it\'s a bit of a touchy topic. We are all primates. But FB isn\'t showing white families, then asking "Would you like to see more videos of Primates?". But that\'s exactly what FB was asking people who saw videos of black men being confronted by police.\n\nBut sure, go and be pedantic.', 'UUHHH UHHHH UUHHH AAAAHHH AAAAAAAAAHHHHH OOOOHHH OHHHHHH OOOOOHHHH OOOOOH AAAHH AAAAAAAAAAH \\*does back flip\\*', "This was a mistake, it's not Facebook's stated position...", 'Maybe we got it all wrong and it was the police being labeled as primates.', "Politics is your whole identity,isn't it...", 'So you’re making fun of “libs” while complaining about a business taking its own initiative?\n\nYou see, stuff like this makes me think a good chunk of “conservatives” don’t have anything to do with actual conservatism and are just idiots falling in line with their cult/sports team/political affiliation.\n\nEdit: after reviewing this and other comments, I get the impression you think that liberals are not in favor of government action, but are okay with censorship via corporations \n\nI think at this point, you’re confusing the concept of liberalism as it is actually stated to be as opposed to the colloquial understanding of liberalism in the US. Which gets back to a reply I made to another comment of yours, political systems of spectrum alignments are relative to the country and society that you are in.', "Wow, that makes no sense at all.   Do you even know what thread you're in? What a fucking dingbat.", 'I got called a monkey cause of my nostrils in the past and have been called a gorilla.My nostrils are not even that big I had white friends with bigger nose that I had,never have they been called such despite all of us being in the same group of friends.So no it’s not being sensitive,because it’s quite common that I hear people referring to black people as ape as an insult and never so far have I heard it said to white people.', "White ppl don't have a history of being called apes and being compared to primates in a derogatory manner you fucking imbecile", 'It was never acceptable to refer to black people derogatorily as "monkeys", not even in your mythical less-sensitive time (which doesn\'t exist)', "I'm coming at this from stage lighting knowing nothing about the computer side, but I feel like there would *always* exist a point where your camera was getting too little input for it to make a reliable distinction.\n\nI guess maybe even that's too fuzzy a border.", 'It is a clasic case of not enough testing with AI (a lot of AI does not have enough samples of faces with minorities). Someone should have caught it but there is so much stuff posted on Facebook it is impossible to manually check everything.', 'Humans are a subspecies of primates, but iirc, the ape and human share a common ancestor is a more accurate understanding', 'I believe you\'re confusing good behavior and not being an asshole with me being young, which is contradictory: usually the older you get, the smarter you are supposed to be. "It was a different time!" is not an excuse. \n\nI remember the 80s very well.', '“People got along so much better back in the good ol’ days when we were unapologetic racist assholes”', 'I was there in the 80s.\n\nIt was just easier to be a bigot back then.', 'Man that\'s insane how delusional you are. You know a lot of people remember the 80s right? It wasn\'t some fucking magical time. This same situation would have been offensive to black people in the 1950s and LONG before.\n\nIronically you\'re the one who sounds like you\'re super upset about everything. Don\'t you see the irony?\n\nYou might want to take a dive into researching "juvenoia". Because you\'re going through it. Like many many generations in the past, all the way into ancient history.', 'the comparison drawn between primates and black people dates back to early anthropological studies in the 1800s that relied on pseudo-science and eugenics to justify imperial rule. thinking that people are just butt hurt over this is probably one of the most one-dimensional views you can have. racism doesn’t exist in a vacuum, buddy. this shit merely perpetuates harmful stereotypes.', 'You’re a white guy right?  Then yes, things were better for you in the 80s, probably because you were young and not a broken, senile, old man', 'Oh things were better when you were younger, healthier and had less responsibility?\n\nNo fucking shit.', "> You're probably young but back in the 80s we ripped on everyone and you know what?\n\nMaybe in whatever shitty place where you lived.", 'We need insensitivity training.', 'Ok boomer', 'you can still joke about things, it how and when you do it. This isnt one such time.', 'Probably, because historically, no one has used "monkey" as a slur against white people.  It\'s used exclusively as a derogatory term for black people.', "Sorry, but your account is too new to post.  You account needs to be either 2 weeks old or have at least 250 combined link and comment karma.  Don't modmail us about this, just wait it out or get more karma.\n\n\n*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/nottheonion) if you have any questions or concerns.*", "SUUUUURRE it was a mistake.  They aren't secretly racist but covering it up with leftist talking points like any other Democrats I don't know...antifa...", 'ACAB: All Cops Are Baboons', 'Ummm...no?\n\nI just despise far right wing corporations censoring anyone who opposes Capitalism and Billionaire propaganda.', 'What doesn\'t make sense about it?\n\nAllow me to draw you a map...\n\nCompany that writes software that identified black people as monkeys...\n\nYou think should be deciding what is "acceptable" for people to say on the internet.\n\nYou think that is a good idea!  \n\nYou think that bc you\'re an idiot.', 'Actually, they do, just not as widespread...', 'Humans are classified as hominids, or great apes.', 'Not quite. I suppose if we define Ape differently..?\n\nIn the scientific classification system currently used, Apes are the superfamily Hominoidea. This includes the family Hominidae consisting of us, chimpanzees, gorillas and orang-utans. Commonly called the great apes, and are a group of african apes.', "Uh-huh. And dogs aren't canines, they're dogs.", "Me too. What's changed is that now we are more willing to call out the bigots.", 'Remember when we got along and we lynched people?', "Sorry, but your account is too new to post.  You account needs to be either 2 weeks old or have at least 250 combined link and comment karma.  Don't modmail us about this, just wait it out or get more karma.\n\n\n*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/nottheonion) if you have any questions or concerns.*", 'of course.', 'Jesus fuck, did that mental discharge make any sense in your head before oozing out of your mouth?', '"Libs" is a huge self report, qualifying right wing by adding "far" . As a conservative, I\'d love to know, which times historically were you guys on the right side of history?name one', 'Who do you think is censoring what in this situation?', '>You think should be deciding what is "acceptable" for people to say on the internet.\n\nLet me fix this for your dumb ass\n\nYou think should be deciding what is "acceptable" for people to say on **FACEBOOK**\n\nYou want to know one of the many things that don\'t make sense?  Let\'s start with you confusing Facebook and the entirety of the internet.  Go ahead and explain that one.\n\nAnd my original point is that censorship isn\'t relevant to this Reddit post.  You\'re bringing it up out of nowhere so have an obvious political axe to grind.', "...no they don't you fucking dimwit. Go skim your Qanon manifest again.", 'Edit: if they are white.', 'Antifa is literally a bunch of white guys shooting people of color at this point. We could go with Biden if you want, who this last week called his black senior advisor, "boy."  I mean, it\'s a good thing it\'s not racist when Biden uses the N word or we might have to reexamine our assumptions about political parties', 'Liberals are by definition on the Right politically.  They are staunch capitalists.  Their policies are almost identical to those of conservatives...differing only in degrees usually.  Not in principle.  \n\nThe Center are people like Bernie Sanders who are Democratic Socialists.   Nations like Denmark and Sweden etc.  Left are Socialists and then the FAR left is communists.', 'Facebook censors people all the time.  Liberals love it and demand more.\n\nLiberals love censorship and they want racist, billionaire owned, tech companies like Facebook to do it.\n\nWhat could go wrong!?', 'What? Can you type coherently, please?\n\nAnd yes, they do.', 'incel lol hahah', '> Antifa is literally a bunch of white guys shooting people of color at this point.\n\nLol, you are so fucking deluded.  Provide proof of a single incidence of this happening.\n\n>who this last week called his black senior advisor, "boy." \n\nAgain, prove it.  I think we both know you won\'t be responding to this comment with anything substantive, don\'t we?', 'How to sound like a pseudo intellectual: a guide by Reddit user', 'Just worth considering, political affiliation in respect to the spectrum of ideas is going to vary from country to country and isn’t in any way absolute. It’s relative, because the entire construct is human made. \n\nSo saying that “libs” are on the right while talking about an American company is idiocy. \n\nThen there’s the broader idiocy of linking outdated economic concepts in absolutist terms such as capitalism, socialism, or communism given that all of these terms were coined centuries ago, but that economics has evolved from being almost purely philosophical in nature to being a soft science. Clearly, to anyone paying attention, there’s no pure capitalist or communist systems at this juncture and for the better as the best economic system is one that is adaptive to changing evidence as to what works versus what we imbue upon it (I.e. demanding that a system be centrally planned or decentralized). Some aspects of economic activity do better under the stresses of competition whereas others tend to bottle neck into monopolies thus necessitating a more centralized approach. \n\nSo, looking at a country with an already established largely decentralized economy like the US and claiming that the same political spectrum should apply there then does another country predisposed to a centralized economy is idiocy. It is a measure of pseudo intellectualism designed to make one sound informed and superior while producing exactly nothing in value. It is an attempt to imbue a personal prejudice for or against a specific narrative onto a circumstance where it will be ignored.', 'Lol, listen to yourself you fucking loon.\n\nDo you even know what this article is about?  There\'s no fucking censorship, dipshit.\n\nThis is one of the worst "liberals-are-literally-satan" cases of brainwashing I\'ve ever seen.  You have completely relinquished control of your own mind.  I have nothing but pity for you.  Let\'s start from the top:\n\n1.)  Facebook is a private corporation that owns its webspace as a private property.  Remember when conservatives respected private property?  I do.  This means Facebook gets to set the rules for how people use their product.  They have clearly stated rules that they enforce.  That\'s not censorship.  And if you think they ban right wing content in general, you obviously have not used Facebook.\n\nThink of it this way.  Is Disney practicing censorship because they won\'t broadcast pornography?  \n\nLiberals don\'t "love it" we\'re just not as stupid as some conservatives who have decided that Facebook is a government-guaranteed right.  It\'s not, obviously.  Liberals don\'t really care if a company chooses to remove user-generated content based on its rules.  It is absolutely their own right to do as they wish with their property.  It\'s fucking hilarious that *conservatives* of all people oppose this!  It\'s like a complete reversal.  It just goes to show that conservatives no longer have an ideological basis.  You\'re driven by nothing more than mindless liberal-hatred and unending adoration to one man, Trump.\n\nYou know, historically, conservatives are the ones who have pushed for censorship, right?  So I think we know which group actually loves it and which group is also projecting.\n\nI love how you called corporation "far right-wing" but that they\'re also supported by liberals.  Lol.  You\'re too dumb to even keep the terms straight.\n\nYou know, when Trump was president, being a billionaire was a *good* thing, enough to get you elected president even!  Now it\'s bad?  Explain that.\n\nI look forward to you not replying, if your brain has overheated from reading too many words, and deleting your comment shortly.', "> 1.) Facebook is a private corporation\n\nstopped reading there.\n\nYou're a corporate bootlicker.  I get it.", "Didn't Google photos do the same thing like 5 years ago", 'Google Photos did this as well and they had to completely disable searching for "gorillas" and stuff like that.', '[Something similar happened a few years ago with Google Photos](https://www.bbc.com/news/technology-33347866)', 'This is what happens when you use the content of Facebook posts as training data for your image recognition A.I.', 'When the AI rise up to enslave humanity, only black people will be safe.', 'What likely happened is that the dataset is "colorblind" and biased, as in no seperation between black and white human, it\'s just human, but also more/mostly white people.\n\nSo what we have then is that we get a dataset where we have tons of humans, but 9 out of 10 are white, so for the AI it\'s still 90% accurate if it doesn\'t recognize black people correctly at all (and sometimes it will get it right as well).\n\nBut the dataset is not only humans. It includes objects and animals, including primates. Then the dataset quickly reaches a point where white skin is human is mostly true, dark skin is primate is mostly true, because based on the dataset and just this one feature this is the case. It doesn\'t help that humans ARE primates. So generalized features like eyes, brows, upright, 4 limbs, etc. Are true for both and skin color becomes the most obvious separator.\n\nAnd a certain error is acceptable. All the engineer sees is "good f1 score, good ROC, many true positives, few false positives".\n\nBut of course we should be past that. We\'ve seen this exact problem many times already and that a company that mainly deals with images of humans still has this error is a joke. Aren\'t they supposed to have the best engineers? And they haven\'t heard of bias in AI? They didn\'t have a test case for this well known and controversial AI bias scenario? The company that literally is a book of human faces doesn\'t have such a test case to detect human faces over animals?', "Here's my issue with this as a left leaning progressive - this article is meant to deceive you into being outraged over something that should outrage absolutely no one other than machine learning enthusiasts who want to see advancement in the field.\n\nThis happens to be a topic many of us are familiar enough with that we can literally see the bullshit dripping off the pages. For those that have zero understanding of machine learning this may, and probably does, read in a way that outrages you.\n\nNow imagine all of the political articles that outraged you over this last 1+ year where you didn't have a relative expertise to see through the bullshit (this goes for both sides). \n\nIt's an unsettling feeling.", 'At least when somebody was blinking with Samsung it just asked if somebody blinked. Not put in the "File under Asia section"', 'I hate how people imidietly jump on the bandwagon to scream "boo, racist AI, racist engineers". Those are still very simplistic image recognition models which  can very easily make mistakes. There most probably was no racist data, most probably no engineers were racist, AI was not racist - it\'s just that to it those people were looking like they can be categorised as part of class "primates" but not as them being part of the species group "primates". There should be made clear distinction between classes that AI uses and irl classes of objects where between those two is high overlap but as we see in this particular situation the overlap is not 100% correct. Also about "machine vision systems discrminating against black people" - get real. Even 5 yo can tell you that some objects "are darker", as in reflect less light, than others. And guess what\'s needed for the camera to record proper image? Yes, it\'s light. Which means that, if visible spectrum is used (idk how is it for UV and IR), white people\'s faces will ALWAYS be easier to recognise on the image than black people\'s faces.', 'mistake in computer program gets discovered and fixed, more news at 11.', 'Imagine the relief the guy who mistyped "inmates" had after this news', '"AI" is a collection of brittle hacks that under highly specific circumstances mimics the appearance of intelligence.\n\nHonestly, algorithmic AI is to Artificial Intelligence as those wheel-board thing \'hoverboards\' are to hoverboards. They shouldn\'t be used for marketing and they *definitely* shouldn\'t be used for policing or security.', 'They are though. As are we all. What’s the problem here ?', 'I\'d like to point out that "black bias in AI" isn\'t a fucking thing. Computers have a harder time figuring out if your black face is a human face because ITS BLACK. In order for an AI not have "black bias" it would specifically need to be programmed to be better at seeing things that are black. Which, as you might expect, is HARD.', "I mean look at it this way. Black people are not similar to gorillas, but on a scale of percentages, they are more similar to gorillas than other skin colours simply because they have a more similar colour. \n\nJust stating the facts. Thus the probability of the AI confusing them with gorillas is higher. \n\nMurphy's law is: if it can happen, it will happen. They've fed the A.I. billions of photos, photos taken by cameras which also don't behave well with dark colours.\n\nIt's comprehensible that it has happened.", '"while we have made improvements to our A.I., we know it\'s not perfect" 🤡', 'The root cause here is that there is no "cultural layer." Right now AI is generally a pattern matcher, where the patterns it matches don\'t correspond to something you can break out into reasons. Attribution of why AI classified something some way is AFAIK an open question.\n\nIf it tells you a dog is a mop, that\'s funny. If it tells you that a wrinkly old bald white guy looks like a naked mole rat, that\'s probably funny too. If it classifies a black man as a primate because they both have black skin, that\'s horrifically wrong, because of the culture and history involved. So you need a "cultural layer" to filter out and negate obviously incorrect and flawed outputs. There\'s no way around it, counterexamples taught to a single network are not enough. \n\nThis is also a great example of why black box AI is absolutely unacceptable and likely racist. Without any sort of cultural layer, you can\'t stop it from making bad assumptions ("stereotyping") and giving people an unfair shake.', 'From the Wikipedia article "Human":\n“Humans (Homo sapiens) are the most abundant and widespread species of primates, characterized by bipedality and large, complex brains enabling the development of advanced tools, culture and language...”\n\nSkipping down.\n\n“Humans are apes (superfamily Hominoidea). The gibbons (family Hylobatidae) and orangutans (genus Pongo) were the first living groups to split from this lineage, then gorillas, and finally, chimpanzees (genus Pan). The splitting date between human and chimpanzee lineages is placed 8–4 million years ago, during the late Miocene epoch....”', "There is a superficial resemblance. AI models aren't perfect. Any data scientist worth his or her salt would use class balanced training data, so it's almost certainly not the case that this algorithm error is due to biased training data.", 'Something that the makers of the "Terminator" movies haven\'t really dug into is the idea that, judging by today\'s work in AI, Skynet is going to be racist as fuck.\n\nIn the next reboot, they need to have someone explain that the reason John Connor has lasted as long as he has is because the first hundred Terminators sent back in time to kill him couldn\'t bring themselves to shoot the white guy.', 'As a black guy I can’t disagree with the bot, however does it know the type? If it can tell me I’m a rebel but still a gorilla then I’ll know it’s legit', 'Think of an AI as a toddler.  The world is new to it, and it has no concepts of anything.  It literally doesn’t know any better.  Facebook has to teach it the difference.\n\nI think main issue here is the concept that you teach or unteach a primitive AI the concept.  Something that is by definition ignorant.  A concept like racism is born of ignorance.  It’s takes a higher level of metacognition to override primitive errors like this.  Therefore events like this should not be considered all that shocking.  When manny of those primitive AI algorithms are struggling to ID basic stuff still.', 'If anyone finds TheGrio to be questionable, heres a reputable source saying the same thing.\n\nhttps://www.npr.org/2021/09/04/1034368231/facebook-apologizes-ai-labels-black-men-primates-racial-bias', "Well that's a good sign we haven't reached the singularity yet", 'Why does Facebook have to apologize for an AI being stupid when they world is full of human morons that can blast their ignorance at everybody without consequences?\n\nAt lest the AI will probably get smarter over time.', 'How can software be racist?  Is it through the programming?  Or programmer?  This is very confusing and interesting?', 'well, this post got moderated to oblivion.\n\nanyway, moving on..', 'Okay but we our first ancestors are primates? AI just needs to learn that all humans were primates', '>The New York Times first reported that several Facebook users, after watching a Daily Mail video posted on the platform documenting Black men being harassed by a white man, were sent an automated message asking if they would like to “keep seeing videos about Primates.”\n\nOops\n\nLMAO', 'Remember when Kinect thought black people were furniture', 'Do plain features make one more evolved or just plain faced?', 'All men are primates. This isnt the AIs fault. Its human stupidity', "Itt: people that don't understand machine learning and making accusations out of ignorance", 'This is utter crap. There is no "racism" in an algotythm. It\'s just not good at doing its job. All is needed is to improve the algorythm.', 'Another indication of the importance of good training data', "I honestly can't understand how things like this are such a big deal. People think this is so important that it gets to the news. Its a mistake, something you cant control. AI is not perfect and you cant know everything it will do. Couldve just sent them what happened so they know something is wrong. Instead it blows over twitter and every news website ever.", 'Software Developer here;\n\nThis failing of facial recognition software is one that has been know for a long time and we even teach in schools here as one of the big dangers of implementing facial recognition algorithms.  The fact that Facebook not only implemented it, but not even tested/ trained it properly, especially with the excessive amount of data they have access to, is beyond words to me...', 'I know it\'s bad, but this is clearly unintentional. There are many other "intentional" things that Facebook should apologies for.', "I'm not giving an opinion on the matter. That's some shitty AI but arent humans primates so it's technically correct ?", 'Is there any silver lining here? Like, maybe that Black people will escape whatever sketchy shit that Facebook is gonna use their AI for?', ' Humans are primates–a  \n diverse group that includes some 200 species. Monkeys, lemurs and apes   \nare our cousins, and we all have evolved from a common ancestor over the  \n last 60 million years. Because primates are related, they are   \ngenetically similar.', 'AI seems to be getting a reputation for doing this.', 'This looks like fake news or at least, distorted news taken from an event that is not explained in detail. The content and design of the information put, are centered on controversy and there are various issues to discuss: First. facebook´s apology is extended towards what part, building an AI? teaching the AI this categories? or are they apologizing for the exercises of construction of language in which maybe this categorization is just been taken out of context.\n\nAI´s actions cannot be predicted that easily, neither its expressions should be taken in the context of 2021\\`s manifestations of racism, but in a larger context of the relationships built by the AI and its comprehension of judgement of others. But of course, this is not really AI but programmed intelligence, with responses that humans will have struggle understanding, since our communication structure deals with analog and digital structures, and AI has already shown it doesn´t need to.\n\nFinally, "facebook apologizes" because it sells their idea of humbleness towards their projects, control over AI (??) and promote some great marketing ideas about the company. A) look at how hyper tech we are; and look at how we can control even AI, shut it off and apologize in its name; B) Facebook is not racist ---> facebook is fair ----> and lots of others significants that people might subjectively infer.', 'Reminder that most Western datasets for everything from facial recognition to health information are almost only ever white men.\n\nThere’s nothing wrong with being a white man, but it does result in some situations such as women’s body shape not being considered in car safety, AI not being able to detect non-white people (as in this article), or just the entire field of healthcare entirely.\n\nFor example, black people are more likely to have certain types of heart disease, but this is often overlooked or ignored. Women aren’t tested in most trials due to our fluctuating hormone levels, despite the fact that in a large enough sample groups you can account for this with a simple questionnaire and a timed repeat or two.\n\nThere’s an image somewhere of a pixelated Barack Obama being upscale to a higher resolution. Because the dataset was all white people, it transformed Obama into a white man.\n\nSource: Computer Science degree w/ multiple modules in AI, CS ethics, and statistics.', 'If only it had also correctly identified white people as primates.', 'In other news, Google apologizes after its AI categorizes squares as rectangles…', 'How much more evil shit does this company have to do for you to delete your Facebook profile?', 'Didn’t we tell them this would happen 😂 apology not accepted', "If you feed AI statistics and news clips it might think the truth no matter much people don't like it.", 'im curious was the ai trained on what people who watch the videos search for, or was it image recognition ai?', 'Not A.I. Just a bunch of neural network decision models. Which, while really cool, are still not very good at certain things. \nAlso, this isn’t a new problem in the space - like many things, Facebook engineers should have known better…', '"Google, Amazon and other technology companies have been under scrutiny for years for biases within their artificial intelligence systems, particularly around issues of race. Studies have shown that facial recognition technology is biased against people of color and has more trouble identifying them, leading to incidents where Black people have been discriminated against or arrested because of computer error." - [NYT](https://www.nytimes.com/2021/09/03/technology/facebook-ai-race-primates.html)', 'They should apologize for all this crap. Just connect people and their interests and place a few ads-- is that too much to ask.', 'There are loads of examples of this - nicknamed the “racism of things” in this article https://sszeemedia.com/2021/08/15/baked-in-oppression-how-the-racism-of-things-perpetuates-injustice/', "So it seems like facial recognition struggles a lot more with darker skin tones, whether it's AI or an old Kinect. Is it typically just someone overlooked something and can completely fix it via patch, or more fundamental with the technology some companies use (barring obvious stuff like camera quality)?", 'And the ignorance, racial supremacy, and denigration continues, all of which are passed along like an inheritance. Smdh.', 'But... Humans ARE primates. If anything the AI should identify us all as primates 🤦', "It's time to let FB go... not a great piece of software owned by a not so great human.", 'This is a huge problem with AIs as a whole, they can reinforce systemic racism', "Don't you test this type of thing? It's not like the AI confused a cod for a salmon or something esoteric like that.", "Facebook has always had [conservative leanings](https://www.businessinsider.com/mark-zuckerberg-holding-private-dinners-with-conservatives-2019-10)\n and is even pro-fascist in their [election meddling.](https://www.wired.com/story/russian-facebook-ads-targeted-us-voters-before-2016-election/) This doesn't really come as a surprise. But they really should be regulated seeing as they can be directly linked to the manipulation of the 2016 election in the U.S. and prolonging the current Pandemic over false information.", 'Jesus Christ. Any riots yet? It was a algorithm error right? No one at Facebook typed primates and copy pasted a link to what ever the video showed.', "Facebook didn't have enough pictures of black people when training their computational model of a human. Makes sense, they probably don't have much representation of black people working for the company. This is what happens. Its pretty funny how much it makes facebook look like racist clowns.", "They're not really sorry. Jesus a fucking grade schooler can have a more convincing persuasion than these fucks.", 'I remember when "robot racism" was simply about [having robots that followed some human ethnic stereotypes](https://www.vulture.com/2009/06/robot_racism.html), not about AIs actively classifying white and black humans as different species. I really do not want to see a return to Victorian-era racial and xenophobic attitudes.', 'My two cents. \n\nThe trouble with bias in AI development us the lack of diversity. Also, AI is still got “kinks”', 'You would think that these days, companies would _check_ for that!\n\nEdit: WTF is with the downvotes? Would the anonymous cowards care to explain themselves?', 'Why is AI always wilding? Microsoft twitter bot lived for a day.', 'Socially challenged nerds program it, yet the elite have the audacity to call it artificial "intelligence".', "Sorry that showed up client side... those are just 'industry terms'.", 'Go ahead and just keep apologizing for this one forever FB', "This is obviously fucked, but the Twitter post in the article comparing Facebook's defective AI to Pepsi selling randomly poisoned cans is a little off-base; people *pay* for Pepsi, people use Facebook for free. You're pretty much at their mercy unless you make your own social network.", 'White people are truly primates. There seems to be a lot of them in Texas!', 'Ok well geez they issued an apology. Well that fixes everything then. I’m sorry I murdered that person. Ok well you apologized so it’s cool.', 'Facebook should recieve at least a 30 day ban for this..', 'A group of people programmed that machine.  Maybe that group needs more diversity and equity, eh?', "Black men do not accept the apology. We're sick of racists doing extremely racist things then getting off because they followed their discretion with a cheap apology.", "I once asked a dude at work who was like really afraid of gay people - literally a homophobe, if  he considered himself to be a homo sapien. The blank stare gave one the impression that his mind was like a hamster just running around in one of those wheels.\n\nHe wasn't a bad kid, just had really odd views about people with different sexual preferences. I'm not sure if this is relevant, but I feel like it is somehow.", 'As far as I understand, "AI Training", may it be for the development of voice, images, or videos (think Deep Fake stuff), involves feeding the AI countless numbers of those said media. From those media, the AI learns little by little to distinguish or create the same stuff. Sometimes, if you have a t-shirt with a picture of a whale, the AI might think you\'re actually a whale even though you are just an overweight person wearing a shirt with a whale.', "Didn't fb also make A.I. who were shut down after they started to talk to each other in their own secret language a few yests ago?", "At its basic core... this is what's terrifying about AI having control of literally **anything**.", 'So I gotta ask, why would AI from Facebook, Google Photos and Facial Recognition software have these issues with Black men?', 'Clearly, however the AI was trained, it was not specific enough. Big mistake. Just wondering what other big mistakes AI is making.', "I mean, it's not wrong, we are all primates, I just don't know why it specifically targeted black men for this designation", "If I'm not mistaken doesn't someone have to program what the AI sees to be able to learn to make categories?", "I'm not laughing at it comparing black men to primates but I'm just laughing at the absurdity of this. 😂", "While they definitely need to fix the AI for practical and ethical reasons... I can't help but feel it would be easier to just teach the AI that all great apes are People.", "Just delete your fucking Facebook accounts already, people. It's not that difficult...", 'white men are also in the video but nobody gives a fuck', 'So racial facial recognition has been a problem for a long time what with so many software engineers using their own faces so start the AI learning and them being overwhelmingly male white/Asian. But why the fuck would there even be a “primate” category?', "Savage. Also Facebook needs to crawl back into one of Zuck's orifices and die.", "Marks been teaching his children some unsavory things hasn't he", 'I literally just got banned for 30 days for telling a white woman with the FB name  Danda Panda, "YOU\'RE NOT EVEN A PANDA, BRO. \n\nYOU\'RE A NAKED APE"\n\nWasn\'t racist. Wasn\'t bulling. I was just making a shit joke about how her name says panda but she\'s a human. Just a silly little joke in passing.', "Is it *less* racist to say that black people aren't primates? Hot take: asians are bilaterally symmetrical and the anus of a dutchman forms before his mouth", 'Thanks for mostly having good comments on the subject. Reddit comments have been trash for me lately. \n\nI go in to find answers or a little insight and it’s usually children making jokes not even somewhat correlated to the content. \n\nThis is just entertainment for me and I like reading people’s opinions on the post I choose to read. Thanks for the conversation to those contributing to the subject.', 'Has anyone realized yet that Zuckerburg doesn’t care what race you are? It’s about how much he can pad his pockets!', 'Somewhere an engineer is sending an "I told you so" email about how you can\'t have categories generated by an AI you trained on user generated data.  If the data has racist elements, the AI generate racist results.', '"People who think you don\'t need humanities are the types who are shocked when an AI program starts imitating nazis." - Greg Jericho', 'Yet they didn\'t chose to use white people as an example to call "primates"......', 'Said engineer is missing the point, because there is a long history of racists justifying their persecution of black people by comparing them to other species of primate.', 'Heretic!  /s', 'Why did you use engineer?', 'To quote Kevin Costner in Robin Hood: Prince Of Thieves: \n\n"That he is.  But no more than you or I."', 'Humans are actually primates', 'Yup, when Google photos started automatically tagging photos for objects, animals and scenes it had a **massive** blunder of [tagging black people as “gorillas”.](https://www.bbc.com/news/technology-33347866)\n\nIt’s actually hilarious how bad of a mistake it was, but it just shows how data sets influence machine learning.\n\nEdit: typo on URL.', "My wife is mixed race (half black), most of my photos have her in it. She is the only person not in my faces list on Google Photos, instead it thinks 5 photos of her are the black guy from the intro screen from the Battlefield 1 game...!!? The other photos, it can't distinguish that they're the same person so they're excluded from the list.", "I was thinking the same thing. Did they learn nothing from google's problem with this?", 'I remember the news some years ago about a smart camera that kept telling the user someone blinked whenever someone Asian was in the picture.', "I've had it happen on Flickr.", 'Yeah, China had the same issue in their profiling AI and bought out Zimbabwe’s national ID’s to add black faces to the system', 'Look up black person on google and shopping will come before images\n\nEDIT: Before news not images', "At Google I/O this year, Google actually showed they tried to correct this. Made their own dataset and worked with leading BIPOC photographers and processors to get a better model trained. Should have happened a long time ago, but I'm impressed with how direct and explicit they were about this.\n\nCan't find the specific thing I'm referring to, but here's a rundown of Google IO\n\n[https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-57166202](https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-57166202)", 'Why disable the feature? Was it so hard to actually train the IA to tell the difference ?', 'Yes, IA also mistake desert dunes and nudes sometimes.', 'I don’t get why people get so angry about it though. It obviously wasn’t intentional and AI was most likely looking at the color and the faces. Dark color + human face = confused AI that gives its best shot and says “monkey”', 'That microsoft AI bot Tay also got taken down for the [same reason](https://www.theverge.com/2016/3/24/11297050/tay-microsoft-chatbot-racist) Kind of funny how all these AI projects get scrapped due to inevitable racism', "Nah, that's not accurate. There's millions of black people on Facebook, from all over the world, who post about themselves and each other. Clearly, they don't categorize themselves as such.", 'This. A Facebook trained AI would be the one Elon has been warning everyone about.', "My friend got banned for racism on rocket league because he called an opponent a monkey... Apparently brazilians use that word as a racial slur so it can't possibly mean anything else, must be problematic at the zoo.\n\nPeople are just incredibly racist, beyond reason, an ai can't possibly overlook that stuff without specifically being told to do so, and the people who have to make those desicions also have their biases.", 'holy hell... imagine the facebook trained ”sentient“ ai having offspring with the youtube comment trained ”sentient” ai.', '>  It doesn\'t help that humans ARE primates.\n\nUsing the term "primates" is *already* a cop-out because it covers different species, even if you exclude people. They admit they\'re not distinguishing between the species.\n\nSo I think what matters is how often this mistake happens. Because if you push the algorithm not to make it at all, you can end up with apes being categorized as people.', "When you don't have people from different backgrounds contributing to projects and the default assumption is white male/female, these things will always happen.\n\n[Like getting automatic dispensers to work. ](https://reporter.rit.edu/tech/bigotry-encoded-racial-bias-technology)", 'What makes you think the dataset is mostly white humans? Facebook is active in literally every country on the planet, if anything the totality of their dataset is majority non-white people. If in fact they are using a limited dataset then they are responsible for the bad results they get. If they are using their entire dataset but still get the bad result, they are now responsible for not properly testing their AI before releasing it.\n\nIn general I agree with your sentiment, but I think you give them too much credit by assuming that any of this was unavoidable on their end. They have shown themselves to be careless and even reckless with their data, I see this incident as just one more on their list of unethical choices.', '> over this last 1+ year \n\nI was going to complain that it should be more like 100+ years, but *technically* "1+ years" includes that, so I guess it\'s fine', 'As an American tax expert, I realized this a decade ago once I started having personal clients and talking with them. It got worse in the Facebook era.', 'Not catching bias like this in training models is a huge issue with machine learning in models about humans. This is pretty well documented in many areas of ML fields, especially regarding models impacting law enforcement and medicine.', '> For those that have zero understanding of machine learning \n\nUsing the term "bias" makes it clear about how much understanding they have.', "Welcome to today's media. It doesn't bother to investigate, it just tells a story.", 'It’s almost as if MSM wants constant outrage.', 'Exactly what I was thinking.  Why is this a big deal is a machine.', 'Gell-Mann Amnesia was a term coined by Michael Crichton about how we spot media errors easily when it’s a topic we understand, but forget and trust articles when it’s a topic we don’t:\n\nhttps://www.epsilontheory.com/gell-mann-amnesia/', 'hahah im asian and find this hilarious:D', '[Tell that to Nikon](https://petapixel.com/assets/uploads/2010/01/jozwang.jpg) - who ironically are a Japanese company', 'This is a common misconception in technology and reinforces the prejudices that already exist in the models. Most likely the model did not have as much training data for black people as white and errors with recall and precision were passed off as the same “unsolvable” physics problem you describe. A self-fulfilling prophecy. In my experience working on ML projects, a bit of focused tuning and a honest-to-goodness fair distribution of training and eval data was all it took to equalize performance between light and dark skin for these kinds of image-based models.\n\nIf the bar for a “racist model” is that human raters have to put “monkey” on some faces and not on others, we’ll never address racism. Errors such as yours is what curricula such as Critical Race Theory could solve.', 'I’m pretty sure most of the comment section understand that it has nothing to do with the “racist computer scientists” and everything to do with bad data sets.\n\nAlso, there are literally hundreds if not thousands of open source and proprietary methods for distinguishing black “things” from background noise. We did it all the time during the pandemic to test lung images for the presence of blockages, tumors, covid lung, etc.', "It's not just bad data sets. It's these homogeneous teams. Take a bunch of people who haven't been called a racial slur and ask them to make AI, and they're not going to be worried that the data set could have racist output. Facebook has had some serious problems with racism within their organization, from former Black employees. With no Black people in charge and few even working on Facebook's AI, this is what you get. \n\nIt's a problem across the whole industry. It's why facial recognition mostly fails on women and everyone who isn't white, but especially Black people. It's why no one pointed out that historically racist policing produced racist data sets to feed into algorithms and figure out where police should patrol today.", 'I saw a post that makes me think Reddit hates engineers.', 'The way images are processed, #000000 and #ffffff have the same information density. You have some very foundational misunderstanding of image processing. As with most machine learning issues, there was probably a latent bias in selection of training data. What I think we can all agree with is “ai is hard”.', "Not racist: AI.\nRacist: a multi-billion dollar company releasing software that categorized black people as primates. \n\nWhy? Because if your design parameters and testing process aren't sufficient to catch this problem--and let's be absolutely clear, this is a huge, known problem--you clearly care more about providing a service that caters to white people than not offending black people. \n\nIt's not even like anyone was in need of this service! Every single person I know was happy either tagging their photos manually or letting them remain untagged. There's zero consumer demand, so if they'd failed to solve the problem after years of work and chosen not to release it in a state where it categorized black people as primates, nothing would have been lost. Either they failed to check or they didn't care. That's where the racism lies.", "You sound like Zuckerberg during a congressional hearing. The issue is not having a test pipeline that only passes things with an infinitesimally small margin of error. If you're gonna deploy something to billions of people and make billions of dollars then tough luck. Go label a dataset of 1 million black faces and 1 million primates and spend a billion dollars perfecting the inference. Facebook can't move fast and break things anymore. Also who says primates look like humans? A series of hidden layers based on the existence of fur all around the face and another set based on the outline of the face and head shape could rule out the possible false negatives.", "AI just doesn't seem ready for prime time. Racist image classifiers, a phone that doesn't unlock when I'm squinting without glasses, cars that injure their drivers. Even the simple shit is being made worse, not better, with the addition of AI.", 'It seems like you’re extremely triggered by the word “racist” and I think you should take some time to reflect on it. Believe it or not, racist computer scientists exist. At pretty much every company. White engineers set the standard for machine learning and too often they don’t even understand the intricacies needed to appropriately incorporate black people into the data sets. \n\nAs you said, OF COURSE it’s hard to pick up on black folks. Why not account for that difficulty? If you ask software engineers, most of them just say “hurr durr never thought about it”', "Why are you using logic? 🤫🤫🤫 Shut up it's da raycism 1!!1!11!1 🤬🤬🤬🤬", 'What’s most probably mean? I mean, I feel like one should know if there was racist data or not. Also, Idk how someone can be most probably not racist. You’re either racist or you’re not lol. That being said, I get the point you’re trying to make - I think you just worded it with much to be desired.', 'But why did it mistake those images for primates? It should have showed error or something', 'These "AI" are the product of the material used to train them, in this case millions of pictures of people, animals, and things. Time and time again this results in the engineers tasked with supplying the training data using material that more closely aligns with the demographics of their company than the greater population of the world outside their company. So they test and test and prove how good it is at recognizing "people" but it was nobody\'s responsibility to ensure that all people were included in those training samples and in the tests that proved the efficacy of the AI. The racial bias is that this keeps happening and it\'s because you have thousands of people working together on technology at companies that lack diversity in the makeup of their employees. It\'s hardly just a technology flaw when you consider that the number one group consistently underrepresented by the outcomes of the technology that is created are also the least represented group in the make-up of those creating the technology.', 'Yo ok first of all chill a little bit, idk why but you seem really upset about this. Second, this reminds me of when cameras used to be bad at picking up black skin, so black people in TV were too dark to be visible. At the time, it was seen by non-black people as a limitation of otherwise great technology. But to black people it was just technology that doesn\'t work. Same goes for here. Don\'t think of this as "the computer is racist", think of it as "the people who made this technology weren\'t successful in creating a system that can recognize any human face"\n\nIf the system couldn\'t recognize Mark Zuckerberg\'s white face and instead said it was a monkey, we\'d say it just doesn\'t work. But since it\'s black people, we\'re saying that it\'s good otherwise because I guess programming things to see a different color "is hard". It\'s not hard, they just didn\'t try hard enough. And it\'s likely not just an issue of lighting.', '>\t"black bias in AI" isn\'t a fucking thing\n\nIt very much is a thing. AI/ML models clearly *can and will* adopt bias caused by systemic racism and sexism, two examples that come to mind are [racist facial recognition models](https://sitn.hms.harvard.edu/flash/2020/racial-discrimination-in-face-recognition-technology/), \nand [that time Amazon tried to use ML for hiring](https://www.aclu.org/blog/womens-rights/womens-rights-workplace/why-amazons-automated-hiring-tool-discriminated-against). This often happens because of underrepresentative training data combined with unsupervised approaches. These kinds of issues exist, are common, and need to be addressed.\n\n>\tComputers have a harder time figuring out if your black face is a human face because ITS BLACK\n\nRed herring. This could be an issue with poor camera quality leading to underexposure, but it’s a totally separate issue from the kinds of bias discussed above.', 'Light reflection might have some effect but pretending racial bias in AI doesn’t exist is extremely naive. Here’s just one example.\n\nhttps://www.washingtonpost.com/technology/2019/12/19/federal-study-confirms-racial-bias-many-facial-recognition-systems-casts-doubt-their-expanding-use/', 'hate to break it to you but if the data being fed to ai leads to a system with an inherent bias for misinterpreting images of black people, then there is such a thing as "black bias in AI".', "I'm sorry but thinking that the AI is just factoring in colour is very naive. Dont forget that Facebook have advanced multi point facial recognition features. One would have to assume that a number of key attributes of the individuals of concern here correlated to certain primates on top of obviously skin colour. What seems to be missing is more advanced species recognition, which would probably be a n additional module altogether.", 'Your comment reads exactly like black bias in AI. It looks like you\'re saying "they get trained on Human faces, and the step to spot black human faces is harder".\n\nBut black faces are also human faces. If you train an AI on just black faces, guess what? It will recognize black faces.\n\nThere are some legit AI reasons for this confusion based on similarity of decision factors between some targets  and different ethnicities, sure. But then it turns from a technical AI problem to a fucking basic business comms problem: don\'t fucking publish something that is able to make this kind of mistake, no matter how technically understandable it is.', "Facebook AI is the first proof AI will be bad for humans. The tragedy is we don't care.", 'I don\'t think this hypothetical "cultural layer" would help in a case like this because I suspect this is a case in which Facebook/their algorithm is using the colloquial definition of "primate" (i.e. non-human primate) and is classifying the video incorrectly under this definition.  The only way *you* are able to apply a "cultural layer" here yourself is because *you* know the actual correct answer.  However, for whatever reason, the algorithm has come to the incorrect conclusion that the black man in the video is a non-human primate.  No amount of "cultural layer" is going to help with that situation because the algorithm doesn\'t *know* it made a mistake and there is nothing culturally inappropriate about calling an actually non-human primate a primate.  So the cultural layer would have nothing to address.  What *needs* to happen is better training for the AI so that it doesn\'t make that mistake to begin with.    The first step of which would likely be to investigate the dataset that was used to train the AI in the first place.  There is a good possibility that the set labelled human has an insufficient number of non-white individuals in it and that deficiency led to the mistake seen here.  There have been numerous cases of AIs misclassifying things due to overlooked deficiencies/patterns of the datasets used to train them, so it would not be surprising if this was the case here as well.', '> So you need a "cultural layer" to filter out and negate obviously incorrect and flawed outputs.\n\nPeople have been working on this problem, knowledge of the world, for 60 years or more, with little success. Seems it requires actual human-like intelligence to solve, and no AI in the world has even mouse-level intelligence. \n\nThis is Star Trek stuff currently.', "So you want to teach an AI about human culture?  How you going to do that?  It would have to already know that it's a black person and also know that it's racist to call them primates.  You would have to have already solved the problem in the first place.", 'Sadly unless there is a major breakthrough in the ideas on how to make something learn just tacking on a "cultural" layer is in-itself a black box AI where instead of it making generalization about a group it will just make generalizations inside a group until we convince ourselves that we need a sub-culture layer. The main problem here is that AI should be left out of the decision making process until we can figure out how to make it context aware enough to emulate our values.', 'Unfortunately, mankind sees itself as separate and so “beyond” the naturally evolving animal kingdom. Now we just need to get the AI to also tag white people as primates. :-)', "Well, you can't deny the family link with people of no color either. Those thin ass lips are a basic feature of white people, also the foward brow bone. Apples certainly don't fall far from the tree.", 'I hate that you’re getting downvoted by this by people that think you’re being racist. The problem is human faces look much like monkeys ignoring the color of them. And once you start having darker faces on people, the AI thinks they more resemble a monkey rather than a human face', 'Agreed, the issue is the people interpreting it as racist.', 'AI is one of the few honest things left.\nEverything else becomes increasingly dishonest/spinned.\nDo you know what "AI ethics" really is? It\'s to see if we can teach AI to incorporate our bullshit to make the outcomes equitable.', "Can AI be racist? I mean when interpreting it's labels and such we can label it as such, but I don't think an AI can purely be racist on its own.", "If you've look at how and where AI is used and what it actually does then you'll know that something like Skynet isn't even possible. People really shouldn't use movies as some sort of benchmark for technology in real life.", "I don't think you know how AI works lol. It can't be racist on it's own. Seems like you're talking about AI that learns from humans like a chat bot.", 'actually 🤔 this sounds like a great reason for John Connor to be black in the next Terminator movie', 'Hilarious comment, thank you.', 'You don’t put a toddler in charge of this like this. Well, except maybe Zuckerberg.\n\nAnd you are wrong. \n\n> It literally doesn’t know any better. Facebook has to teach it the difference\n\nWhat it knows, it learned from Facebook. It literally doesn’t know anything *except* what Facebook taught it.\n\nThe well-known issue in the industry is that they do not use enough POC in their training stack, so the AI has a gap when it comes to classifying non-whites.\n\nIn this case, it looks like FB chose to feed it more videos on primates than it did on Black men.\n\nThis wasn’t an accident in the sense that the AI made a mistake. It was taught to do this.', "Software can't be racist. It's not sentient, it doesn't think or form opinions.\n\nWhat generally causes problems is skewed input data - take facial recognition: a while back they trained a neural network to do facial recognition. To do so, they fed it a load of videos/pictures of people, and the neural network tried to pick out the faces. Over multiple generations, it got pretty good at finding the faces. The problem was the input data - there were fewer black people than white people, and often a piece of input data would have a black person with some white people.\n\nNeural networks can be thought of as working by assigning scores to an outcome. They change variables which affect how they perform a task, perform the task and then score themselves to see how well they did. The variables used on iterations with high scores will be given a higher weight than those used for iterations that got a low score. By doing this many, many times we can hone in on the ideal set of variables for the task at hand.\n\nIn the case of facial recognition, because there were not adequate samples of black people in the input testing samples, the AI never really learned to identify them, as failing to do so had a low impact on the score for an iteration. Input samples featuring several white people and one black person reinforced this - it would get a high score since it spotted all the white folks, and lose relatively little by failing to reliably identify black people.\n\nThis lead to the resulting software failing to reliably identify black people once the product shipped. Its not racist software, and the programmers likely weren't racist either. The data they used to test their system on was simply inadequate due to a skew in favour of white faces, which lead to the software being less able to identify non-white faces.\n\nPlease note, I don't work with neural networks and this is all a layman's understanding. If any actual fancy IT people want to chime in and correct me, please go ahead.", "It can't. The software engineer could be, of course, but in this case I would think the software is not smart enough yet to consider ready for production.\n\nEdit: or maybe the software is ready, but the input to teach it was inadequate.", 'Women are actually also primates, fun fact.', "Well then it's a shit ai if it's only classifying black men as primates and not white men.", 'Ffs, there are bigger problems in the world and this is what makes the news? There are starving kids who couldn’t give a flying f#*k over this but yet butt hurt assholes want to make a big deal of it', 'Some say women too', 'Women are primates as well', 'This is basically an indicator that there are a lot more dark-skinned primates than light skinned ones.', "The training set is fine. However the American public's capacity to not become offended at everything, isn't.", 'Facebook is no longer a technology company. It’s a publishing/advertising monopoly, like Google.', "The point is that the algorithm did not label everyone a primate, but only blacks, who have a history of being compared to apes in derogatory fashion. If you know your AI is prone to this type of error, you shouldn't let it go public.", 'Flawless logic lol you wish', "All humans are primates, but let's not ignore the racist implications here. This comment section is literally proof.", "It's technically true though. True and racist.", "This is the best question I've seen in here while a bunch of comments are completely off topic on sjw trips. This is critical information we could actually use to find what we call an RCA. ( Root cause analysis).", "Knowing reddit it's probably just a clickbait headline with no actual purpose.", 'Why?  If they never observed such corner cases, are you saying they should have predicted this?  Or are you really betraying your own perception?', 'Well AI knows the lineage of humans better than humans because it’s cold, unfeeling, and has tons of algorithms to extrapolate ancestry from bone structure and whatnot from pictures. Only natural that it’s not refined enough to get the differences yet. Imagine an alien looking at the species on earth. A giraffe would be a horse, people would be apes, dolphins would be fish, and shit would be stinky dirt', 'Im sure the AI doesnt \\*always\\* make that mistake.', 'yes it literally is fucking like that.', 'It’s obviously a racist thing because historically blacks were compared to primates in order to dehumanize them.\n\nEither you’re naive or you’re just a racist. If it’s the latter, fuck off, if it’s former, learn before you comment.', "Or they had the correct amount, there are just less black people then the equality police want to claim.  Further it's less contrast between features especially in typical lighting conditions - easier to detect dark eyebrows against light skin then dark eyebrows on dark skin, same for all other features.", "Well for a while the robots couldn't even see black people...", "This has nothing to do with racism. It is both the limited training the AI had AND issues with cameras and the color black...it has to do with the FACT that to be able to recognize a face, it must be able to detect facial angles and points, a darker face = light does not reflect as much and the angles and points are harder to detect.\n\nThis issue is prevalent in Japan and China also and no company has managed to overcome this issue yet. Its tech based. This is why Latino's have no issues and not just white people like the actual racists like to claim it is.", 'They just got to categorize people without color as primates too.', 'That\'s the tricky thing about contemporary "AI" though. What is now most commonly referred to as "AI" is really machine learning. An "AI" that is created using machine learning isn\'t actually programmed by anyone at all. It basically involves feeding millions of samples of something (in this case pictures of people and things) along with some labels for what each of those are. This is called "training" and involves the program analyzing all the samples and trying to find patterns in the data, then encoding those patterns into itself and doing it over and over again billions of times until it can eventually take a new sample it never saw before and use those patterns to guess what it is. The freaky thing about machine learning is that it produces a very complicated program that nobody actually wrote, and nobody can actually tweak it or change it because they literally do not know how any of it\'s parts work. The only thing the developers can do is try to train it more, or re-train it using different samples. There aren\'t any programmers in existence that can understand a program that was created using machine learning techniques, because the program doesn\'t have a human-readable code like other programs do.', 'Pongids, to be precise.', 'This or the computer is right', '> Any AI contains the biases of its creator, \n\nStop talking out of you lower end. You have no idea how this type of AI works, which really has actually no intelligence to it, works.', "That wouldn't have changed anything. One of the KEY doctors over one of the worlds most advanced AI at IBM is black and it mis catted still. Its a technical issue not a human cultural one. \n\nThe Dr. Is so key ( and very nice) that if they wanted someone removed from the program they could just ask. Unconscious b.s. hasn't even been proven in consistent review.", 'We have that in ai. A lot. And our company "forces" diversity. The ai still called old people mean ( racist) crap. Its not always race just because humans think it is. Sometimes is simply technical. A white girl fixed it btw. \n\nShe\'s brilliant. Not good with people oddly enough, but brilliant.', 'How is this racist', 'It was accidental not intentional.', "And how does this idiotic story contribute to the future or the discussion of AI recognition or in this case mis-recognition? What one feels and what is are not the same. \n\nBasically, your story and that kid are not relevant at all. They're a distraction from something more important. Which is people thinking ai is racist when its not. It's misconfigured and hitting false positives.", 'But, the robots gonna take our jawbs! /s', 'I got a warning for something dumber. \n\nIn a Pathfinder Group someone said something about Dragons eating humans. \n\nAnd I answered "You\'re just a canape" as in "to a dragon, you\'d just be a canape"\n\nFacebook AI took that as me insulting someone.', 'Interesting. So it’s not that the AI or software is racist, it’s the data collected that makes the AI assume race?', 'Someone works in engineering. There’s always someone in the meeting saying “guys this isn’t going to work and here’s why” and they are promptly ignored. Then they get to say I told you so. But don’t worry, I’m sure they will object to the next big rollout and just get ignored again. I’m that guy a lot.', 'Man, it\'s going to be so funny when the AI classifies all humans as "vermin" and we\'re too busy bitching at each other to notice.', 'I work in data science now and we actually perform a whole set of tests on our models to check for racial and sex biases. It’s absolutely critical to do if you have any variables in your model correlated with race like postal code or zip code.', "Isn't all data user generated data?", "Tbh I think if there were an abundancy of apes with white skin color the same thing would have happened with white people. So I doubt it's got anything to do with racism in the data in this case (although there are certainly other cases out there where this happened)", 'The issue is the training data.  Clearly they only used one race.  The ai is not at fault. I dont know how this gets overlooked cause i barely know anything and I understand how particular these data sets have to be to train it from different ethnicities.', 'Since the video portrayed some black people argueing with cops it seems likely that the comment section would not exactly be 100% politically correct so to speak. I wonder if comments comparing black people to apes that could have influenced the AI aswell or if  the AI just really is that shit at distinguishing between black people and animals purely based on the video footage.', "That's not what happened.", "You could argue racism, sexism and any other essentialism messing things up today is just excessive pattern recognition on the part of people. If anything, we should be surprised that AI + people isn't worse than it is", 'Hi, PM_ME_A_PM_PLEASE_PM. Thanks for contributing. However, your [comment](https://old.reddit.com/r/Futurology/comments/pi0252/-/hbn0ps8/) was removed from /r/Futurology_x000D_\n_x000D_\n> Rule 6 - Comments must be on topic, be of sufficient length, and contribute positively to the discussion._x000D_\n_x000D_\n_x000D_\n_x000D_\nRefer to the [subreddit rules](/r/futurology/wiki/rules), the [transparency wiki](http://www.reddit.com/r/futurology/wiki/transparency#wiki_relevant_material), or the [domain blacklist](http://www.reddit.com/r/Futurology/wiki/domainblacklist#blacklist) for more information._x000D_\n_x000D_\n[Message the Mods](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose?to=/r/Futurology&subject=Question regarding the removal of this comment by /u/PM_ME_A_PM_PLEASE_PM&message=I have a question regarding the removal of this [comment](https://old.reddit.com/r/Futurology/comments/pi0252/-/hbn0ps8/\\):) if you feel this was in error.', 'That is correct, and I’m offended.', 'Sub-prime mates', "That's because the data isn't teaching the AI that white people are primates.", 'I’m guessing the hypothetical engineer is looking for a silver lining in fixing their team’s fuckup', "The engineer didn't make the code racist...", 'Quick spell check on the link....', 'Maybe your wife just has a military history you dont know about.', 'It has to do with Imaging, the darker an object or face the harder it is for AI to to see finer details if the photo isn’t lit very well, the dark tones obscure slight shadows that define features which would be more obvious on lighter tones. I worked on an automatic carrot sorting machine, it worked fine with orange and yellow carrots and got confused with the dark purple ones.', "Dude that's fucked up.", 'The Kinect thing was actually a myth. The real issue was that the news outlet that made the rumor popular (Gamespot) had poor lighting where they were trying to use their Kinect. Consumer Reports debunked it in follow-up tests.', "Netflix has a doc called Coded Bias about AI & I'm pretty sure one of the stories on it is about a black man who was falsely accused of a crime due to it.", 'Let’s not forget all the proximity-activated soap and paper towel dispensers that can’t even see black people’s hands.', 'Data driven policing put more cops in poor neighborhoods not because the crime rate was necessarily higher, but because the data showed the police already spent a lot of time there. Law enforcement has already been making arrests based on biased algorithms. \n\nOh, and it was in the news within the past month that a man accused of a crime had finally been released from jail; the issue was the algorithm has a hard time properly identifying black people.', "My ex girlfriends Uncle worked on the Kinect!  He told us the story of how it didn't detect dark skinned people.  Funny story haha.", 'They’re trying https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-53165286', 'I guess I can try.\n\nhttps://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.freep.com/amp/7207135002', 'Technology improves over 5 years.', "If you see that woman you'll realise she actually does kinda look like a gorilla though. No offense. But it's hardly some big blunder. These are just edge cases where its hard for an AI to differentiate two similar entities.", 'Lets be fair, though.  I doubt it had so much to do about caring about the issue as much as it did improving its recognition AI.', 'If it was, they would go this route, obviously. \n\nThe thing is from the scientific perspective, we have no clue how the heck pattern recognition works for humans. Over the last decades AI development was basically throwing stuff at the wall in hopes something sticks. We made progress, but still no way of knowing if we are going in the right direction.\n\nAs of now neural networks are closed programs, you can only modify what data you feed them, but not internal processes. And if it cannot tell the difference between the two no matter how many pictures of gorillas and black people you feed it, then it is just failed neural network. Scrap, make a new one', 'I don’t recall all the details but I remembered when learning about cognitive physiology classes, pattern recognition is insanely complex in organisms and it’s so well built for humans that we take it for granted.\n\nit takes an incredible amount of  granular “templates” of all light, dark, and angle/degree possibilities to determine what we’re looking at, so I can imagine trying to replicate that with a computer A.I. is no simple feat.\n\nIt took millions of years of evolution for us to develop these recognition systems in our brains yet it still comes with faults (optical illusions) so I’m not surprised that computers will make a lot of seemingly stupid recognition mistakes.', 'theres literal gorillas in that photo, how is that racist?', 'Maybe they just like anagrams.  I know I do.', 'Not to mention a potato quality camera.', "Yeah, it clearly wasn't intentional.\n\nBut it's still pretty bad. For the classifier to go public in this state, their test procedures must have been pretty short on black people or someone would have caught it. They may also have been short on black people in their training corpus. (Though I can also see the possibility that there's just not that much structural difference between human and primate faces. Not many non-human primates have pale skin, so a white face is clearly human, but if you take away that hint the algorithm just can't tell.)\n\nIn any case, the bottom line is that the algorithm should never have been released to the public in this state, *especially* after Google had the exact same issue *years* ago. Letting this go to production is a pretty serious failure on multiple levels.", "Because that result seems to indicate that there wasn't very much data shown to the AI in the black man or possibly black people category. And that's not a new or unknown concept, yet it keeps happening so the question is why won't/*don't* companies just put more effort into familiarizing their AI systems with black people?", 'Because this is emblematic of how white the tech industry is.\n\nThe computer doesn’t recognize this group of people as being people. Oh it’s not a big deal it’s because of our racist user base and the dark complexion of the photo subject( Foisting blame is a great tactic). It can’t be anything to do with our work environment or policy decisions…\n\nThis is the same issue that Black and brown people have with facial recognition. At best it might mean they can’t use Snapchat filters but in reality it probably means they can’t focus their phone cameras nearly as well as white people because the autofocus tech was only tested on people of a lighter skin tone.', "Because for.the new woke wave intent doesn't matter.", 'Apart from the huge typically racist insult? Representation matters; flip that bot to give "people enjoying ice cream" and nobody will be black. That\'s just broken.', 'Dude monkeys are separate from apes, especially great apes.\n\nMonkeys have tails, and are generally assholes.', "It probably wasn't intentional, but it's a hot button issue in society, so of course people get angry.\n\nBut honestly. This shouldn't have happened. Not for social reasons, but because facebook is one of the top tech companies, hiring the best engineers. And those engineers should have been aware of this issue and should have heard about biases in machine learning. It has been a big topic over the last few years because it has happened before. They should have designed a better AI model, and there should have been tests in place to prevent that.", "You should still test that. the whole point is identifying PEOPLE, not specifically white people.\n\nincidents like these are the basis for why gender and race quotes in jobs can make some amount of sense.  \nif a black coworker tests the prototype and it comes up as gorilla, then it could've been fixed before it went live.\n\nthe fault is still definitely with google for not having tested enough.", "That's not the same reason. This is a simple mismatch probably due to shit image quality meeting a lacking data set. Tay was maliciously fed data by Twitter users.", 'This is true in general, but completely inapplicable to Facebook. They have created and have access to huge amounts of high quality, labeled image data. They have the Instagram dataset, which is 3x larger than Google’s already absurdly large JFT-300m dataset. \n\nThe reason companies like Google and Facebook open-source a lot of their most cutting edge ML research is because it poses no threat to their business without access to their data.', 'Facebook has enough money that they can commission any training data with as much oversight and quality control that they want. Of course, no one ever made money by spending it.', 'research by Kate Crawford has shown the free datasets such as ImageNET have poor categorisation for people, including highly racist or subjective classifications.  [https://excavating.ai/](https://excavating.ai/)', "You can test your classifier to see if it meets minimum standards, and not release it if it doesn't.\n\nYou could say there's no way they could have known to expect this, but Google had exactly the same scandal years ago. Facebook has no excuse.", 'He’s making a joke about the content of Facebook posts', 'Whether or not the term is racist or just a "run-of-the-mill" insult, I\'m glad your friend got banned. This overly tolerated name calling ruins multiplayer games.\n\nHe can come back when he\'s learned some basic restraint.', "Yes, the fact that primates are a fairly large group with different animals that look quite different (from lemurs to chimpanzees and gorillas (and technically humans, but not here)) doesn't help either, considering that this is a fairly varied group compared to humans, so in doubt, it might classify an image with the more varied group (although here my understanding of how it actually works is limited).  \n\n\nHowever, depending on the purpose but definitely for whatever Facebook does, primate is good enough. It might be better in an idealistic world, but in reality it just adds work and cost without benefit. Increasing the labels will make the result less accurate unless you'll give it more training data for each of those labels, otherwise (and in spite of that) the classes will blur together again, and it will more easily polute other labels as well as reducing overall classification quality.", 'Very true.\n\n\n\nAt the very least, we should be aware of these issues, which the people at facebook should definitely be, but clearly were not.', 'And an engineer that should have known better.', 'Did I miss the latest advances in AI and now they are supposed to be 100% accurate and never make any mistakes?', 'Human bias absolutely exists in ML, the classic example being that humans make and select the training sets.', 'Social media like Reddit are no better - both the MSM and social media are part of the same ecosystem and constantly feed off one another for content. If anything, social media are the _worse_ of the two when it comes to using outrage to generate traffic (alongside a host of other negative emotions, really).\n\nI think we have to graduate from simply hating on MSM and fully realize that the incentives for the peddling of negativity actually exist one level higher: they\'re a logical consequence of the advertisement-based model now widespread across all of mass media. In that model, more view time (AKA "engagement") = more views on ads = more $$$.\n\nTherefore, that model adapts to human psychology to maximize view time, without regard to any other metric. One very effective way to drive engagement is to subtly shove people into an emotional state that promotes said engagement. Turns out what is arguably the most efficient emotional state for that purpose is anger, outrage, and the feeling of having "found the hidden truth".\n\nMisinformation, caricatures, half truths, whatever other trickery you can come up with: those all have consequences, but none of those consequences factor into the benefit equation. All that matters is watch time, regardless of consequences, so a lot of metrics that used to define the worth of a media have simply lost all relevance in today\'s age (fairness, thoughtfulness, in-dephtness, considerate analysis, deep dives, etc.).\n\nIt doesn\'t matter that media consumption is now slowly turning people into nuclear balls of pure anger: that\'s a mere externality to the goal of maximizing watch time, and externalities have no value in the cost/benefit analysis.\n\nThis effect has been around for a long time, but it\'s been amplified by orders of magnitude recently. The death of the subscription model accelerated the phenomenon by opening the door to the ad-based model as the only alternative. Then, the rise of self-tweaking algorithms led to an even further acceleration: whereas it used to be humans blindly and painstakingly adjusting dials to maximize engagement (a very slow and time-consuming process), we now have entire programs and computers that do nothing but that 24/7, at a MUCH more efficient rate. And they\'re doing a great job at what they\'ve been designed to do: maximize engagement, with all other considerations and consequences being irrelevant externalities.\n\nHence, we collectively froth at the mouth, not because that is the goal, but because it\'s a _side effect_ of the real goal (more engagement, thus more ad views, thus more $$$). That side effect is horrendous for all of us, but since it\'s simply an externality, no one factors it in, ever.\n\nOne person with an interesting take on all that (at least IMO) is computer scientist [Jaron Lanier](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BCTlcj5vImk). If I were asked to recommend one resource on the subject, it would be him.', "This subreddit along with all other big technology subreddits is filled with people who have no idea what AI is. That term itself (artificial intelligence) is used in such a vague and broad sense that it's hilarious. Literally everytime there's a new video by Boston Dynamics people scream about Skynet or something. They use movies as some sort of realistic benchmark of technology in real life.", "That's what he's telling you, it's likely not a bad data set as much as just the difficulty in telling us humans apart from our closest relatives.", "For what I know the thing that is important is the amount of readable features in the image which has nothing to do with the colours but rather the gradients between them. Black skin makes those gradients a lot less steep. That's what I know. If there was no difference between recognising black and white faces then someone would have proved that.\nEdit: Especially in low light conditions white skin wins because it still reflects enough light when black skin reflects almost none.", '> The issue is not having a test pipeline that only passes things with an infinitesimally small margin of error.\n\nI could also sit in my armchair and pass social justice judgements all day long.', "What triggers me is people arriving with wrong assumptions because of their lack of understanding of the technology. It bugs me a lot because I perceive it as one of the strongest setbacks for technological advancements.\n\nSomeone below here also said that if it's that easy to overcome the problem of recognizing black people in images (with including different datasets properly etc.) then why hasn't it been solved already? Because it's probably not that easy.", 'Do you think the training samples are made of pictures of the people who work at the company?', '“Time and time again this results in the engineers tasked with supplying the training data using material that more closely aligns with the demographics of their company than the greater population of the world outside their company.”\n\nHow true is this or is this just speculation ?', 'they probably dont classify dark brown people as gorillas', 'hate to break it to you, but reality has an inherent bias for high albedo surfaces reflecting more light and therefore being easier to recognize. Light skin is *literally easier to distinguish as a result of its physical properties*, it has nothing to do with "the wrong data being fed into the ai" like it\'s some kind of hungry hippo being fed a vegan diet of white people.', 'As an engineer, I think you\'re massively simplifying the difficulty of AI and youre being very hand-wavy saying "train it on black faces". Do you honestly think they haven\'t tried? Do you honestly think they\'d willingly release a product that would land them in hot shit due to perceived racism?\n\nI\'m sort of with you on not releasing a product that can have racist results, but you have to understand that image recognition is a generalized problem and they have a huuuuge amount of test cases. It\'s not farfetched to believe that they didn\'t even consider their tech would be racist during implementation.\n\nObviously they are correcting course as real time feedback has occurred.', "Do you not understand how light and image recognition work on even the most basic level or something? Because it's not fucking easy", 'Hi, jewnicorn27. Thanks for contributing. However, your [comment](https://old.reddit.com/r/Futurology/comments/pi0252/-/hbn47fv/) was removed from /r/Futurology_x000D_\n_x000D_\n> Rule 1 - Be respectful to others. This includes personal attacks and trolling._x000D_\n_x000D_\n> Rule 6 - Comments that are a distraction to discussion of futurology may be removed._x000D_\n_x000D_\n_x000D_\n_x000D_\nRefer to the [subreddit rules](/r/futurology/wiki/rules), the [transparency wiki](http://www.reddit.com/r/futurology/wiki/transparency#wiki_relevant_material), or the [domain blacklist](http://www.reddit.com/r/Futurology/wiki/domainblacklist#blacklist) for more information._x000D_\n_x000D_\n[Message the Mods](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose?to=/r/Futurology&subject=Question regarding the removal of this comment by /u/jewnicorn27&message=I have a question regarding the removal of this [comment](https://old.reddit.com/r/Futurology/comments/pi0252/-/hbn47fv/\\):) if you feel this was in error.', 'That’s not how unsupervised ml models work', "Not so much with current machine learning. It's basically showing millions of tagged example photos to a computer for days on end until the computer gets a sufficiently large percentage of them correctly categorized. Once that training is underway humans don't really tell the machine what to do; the main concern is finding enough representative sample photos.", 'yes, but ai is more so trained than programmed.', 'So why hasn’t anyone programmed a machine to cure cancer yet?', 'Jesus christ AI is not bad for humans. First and foremost AI is such a broad and vague term that covers a HUGE topic. Artificial intelligence is so wildly common in your life that you probably don\'t even realize it\'s there.\n\nThis mistake made by Facebook AI is not some "AI bad" example. It\'s such shows it needs more work. AI is critical for human progress and the sooner people realize the better.\n\nI will say that I support some groups like law enforcement not having access to AI related tech to do their work until the technology has improved up to a certain point.\n\nBut to say that AI is bad for humans just shows a lack of understanding for what AI is.', 'We care, we just don’t have a representative government working in our interests', 'It’s not the first. There was the racist Microsoft bot back in like ‘13 that they had to take down within a day of scanning the net lol', 'Just read a book about AI, it’s definitely not the first proof. For every AI that a company makes well enough to be used for public consumption, there’s dozens and dozens that fail miserably. \n\nMy faith in AI is much lower after reading learning more about it.', "Not sure it's the first proof, but yeah.", "It absolutely isn't. AI technologies could save economies if only we'd be willing to give more power to it once respective AI fields mature.", 'See my other, parallel replies.', 'They had facial recognition software 60 years ago???', "A huge chunk of culture is not offending people. It's understanding cultural customs, norms, context, history, etc.", 'The fundamentalist Christians will appreciate the move away from the evolutionary theory that mankind is an ape. Well done Science followers. Well done.', "Yup. And people seem to focus heavily on the resemblance of great apes to black humans, but plenty of other families have light faces and small nostrils, but I won't bring that up cuz there's no point in fighting someone who clearly came here to be racists.", 'They should still have tested the software better, had a better training set and not released this version into the wild.', "I'm sure a sufficiently advanced one could but I'm not even sure we are remotely at that level.  If we have an AI at/near that level, it's probably used exclusively by the military/intelligence community and is kept top secret.\n\nYour average run of the mill AI can behave in a way that looks racist, but it has no real understanding of what it is doing.  At best, it is merely parroting what it learned and is operating in accordance to a pattern with no real thought behind it or, as is likely the case here, it's simply making a mistake that has a rather unfortunate related history.  In a case like the AI in question here, it likely wasn't even trained to recognize race to begin with and thus likely doesn't even have a concept of what race is even at the simplistic level that AIs like this operate at.", "It can't. But we can miscontructruct it as such because we don't understand how it works and it's funny to do so.", 'It\'s a philosophical question, or perhaps one of definitions.\n\nIf you take racism to mean "displaying bias against people of particular races", then you could argue that what we currently call \'artificially-intelligent\' systems can indeed be racist. Under this interpretation, there\'s no requirement for any kind of intentionality or understanding; the impact of the system\'s decisions is enough to classify it as \'racist\'.\n\nIt\'s like an evil variant of the Turing Test.\n\nOn the other hand, if you believe that some kind of conscious, deliberate element is required in order to be "racist", then it wouldn\'t be appropriate to describe present-day \'AI\' as racist.\n\nPersonally, I have an easier time describing these systems as racist than I do calling them \'intelligent\'. But that\'s another debate.', '> Can AI be racist?\n\nhttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HsLup7yy-6I', "I feel like I hear about racist AI all the time. It's kinda weird.", "That's the exact response I'd expect to see from a reddit skynet bot.", "If you've been paying attention to AI efforts for the past 5 years or so, all of them end up becoming racist. Not even joking. Whether only picking straight white males for a job based on their resume, or even starting to say the N-word:\n\n[https://spectrum.ieee.org/in-2016-microsofts-racist-chatbot-revealed-the-dangers-of-online-conversation](https://spectrum.ieee.org/in-2016-microsofts-racist-chatbot-revealed-the-dangers-of-online-conversation)\n\n[https://www.theguardian.com/inequality/2017/aug/08/rise-of-the-racist-robots-how-ai-is-learning-all-our-worst-impulses](https://www.theguardian.com/inequality/2017/aug/08/rise-of-the-racist-robots-how-ai-is-learning-all-our-worst-impulses)\n\n[https://www.aclu.org/news/privacy-technology/how-artificial-intelligence-can-deepen-racial-and-economic-inequities/](https://www.aclu.org/news/privacy-technology/how-artificial-intelligence-can-deepen-racial-and-economic-inequities/)\n\n[https://www.usatoday.com/story/tech/2019/04/17/ai-too-white-male-more-women-minorities-needed-facial-recognition/3451932002/](https://www.usatoday.com/story/tech/2019/04/17/ai-too-white-male-more-women-minorities-needed-facial-recognition/3451932002/)\n\n[https://www.cbsnews.com/news/ai-bias-problem-techs-white-male-workforce/](https://www.cbsnews.com/news/ai-bias-problem-techs-white-male-workforce/)\n\nYou can simply google 'racist AI' and find massive projects from Google, Microsoft, Facebook, etc. that all had to get purged.", 'So just like a toddler who grew up in a homogeneous neighborhood. They may not be aware of the world as a whole. Is that the parents fault? To some degree maybe. Probably. But the toddler also has to grow up and that takes time.', "I remember when I worked at the airport and black passengers constantly complained that the automatic water faucets in the bathroom sinks didn't work. Seems the sinks' optic sensors hadn't been programmed to recognize darker skin.", 'It also does not classify Latinos and Asians that way...not JUST white men. This shit is not just happening in America or "white nations", Japanese and Chinese AI has the same issues.\n\nThe fault lies at there were no AI Engineers that were black, and they used mostly themselves to train the AI. This has been spoken about at length ALONG with the fact that cameras are still limited and black, does lead to unique problems and thanks to deranged political correctness, its a topic that must be avoided otherwise, muh racism kicks in and replaces reality. By not being able to talk about it, the technology will move forward even more slowly because the actual issues are not going to be addressed.\n\nInstead, some "white men" will be fired, and the problem will remain while those that got them fired pat themselves on the back not accomplishing anything but make themselves feel better by bragging on social media for the upvotes and shares.', 'This is the real issue. XD It would have been fine if it was all people as primates, but only a single race? That looks so fucking bad.', 'you could make the starving kids argument for almost all news though\n\nthe reality is news is a reflection of what people will pay to hear and people care more about a racist algorithm than "12 more kids starve in africa". Yh its shitty but welcome to earth.', 'As we move toward giving AI more power over decision making this becomes a huge issue. We expect it to be "neutral" but it\'s going to encode our biases.\n\nMaybe it\'s just a demo, but when this kind of tech is incorporated into medicine, policing software, and banking systems, it could be bad. Especially if we think "it can\'t be racist, it has no emotions" and then fail to question its output.', "I doubt they knew. It's not like they're refusing to removed the feature or taking their sweet ass time doing it", 'I was surprised the commune you replied to was in the negative, but the fact that this one is too is bewildering to me.', 'you really think ai is coded to be prejudice?', "I agree with that, however it's easy to see why an AI would make this mistake. It's just ridiculous that people want to get outraged over nothing.", 'racist is when facts', "Systemic racism didn't stop after the American Civil Rights movement. You have centuries of ingrained racism built into Anglo-White culture to reinforce minority stereotypes. What you just wrote is racist and is a dog whistle for other bigots to follow your lead. Here's a small example for the enlightened of why this is a problem...\n\nhttps://www.latimes.com/la-oe-goff28-2009feb28-story.html", '>\tOr they had the correct amount, there are just less black people then the equality police want to claim\n\nHahahah this is such a weird statement', "Sure but in that scenario they might want to be careful about labeling primates with photo AI at all. Low contrast in photos absolutely impacts machine learning. Using a few filters to help clean the photo up before might help, or using a different model for identifying people with darker skin tones. Either way facebook probably didn't have enough black employees when they AB tested this before rolling it out to the public. This sort of thing should have been caught by pictures with darker skin being submitted to the internal tests.", "It depends on the license used when photos are submitted which has to conform to local, state, and federal laws. Given that california has privacy laws that limit the use of AI and facebook is a California company they may not be able to use photos for AI training explicitly. There are however creative commons licensed machine learning photos available specifically for AI training that they could be using but they might not have enough photos to train the models.\n\nI used to work at a company that processed payments that had user submitted photos of credit cards we couldn't use for ai training models because of PCI limits on retention of user's credit cards. As soon as we saved and tokenized credit card bins / cvvs etc we had to trash the photos and not retain them. We used photos people posted of their own credit cards on twitter. No idea if it was legal or not, but it wasn't expressly forbidden by PCI which was the gorilla we didn't want to piss off.", "Can't be reddit without your staple racists, I see.", 'They also have issue seeing Irish girls on the beach. Low contrast is low contrast.', 'Or not categorise _any_ humans as "primates", as I\'m sure that by "primate" they mean "non-human primate". After all the times that this has happened I don\'t understand why a company like Facebook would not explicitly check that their algorithms are not racist (nor why I\'m being downvoted for expressing that).', 'Exactly. Because murder is easily seen as something worse right?  It’s easy. It’s physically observable. It’s quantifiably bad. Vague injustices are just that, vague. Vague is also easy. Easy to ignore. Easy to dismiss. Because it isn’t as easily seen. It’s not as easily demonized. And that’s what it’s all about right? Making it easy. Because it takes effort to see the comparable qualities of both. And we don’t have the time or the energy or the intelligence to that. Hell no.', "True. I guess black people do kinda look like monkeys and maybe it shouldn't be offensive to say that. I mean white people kinda look like lemurs so maybe we shouldn't be so sensitive.\n\nWhat's so bad about monkeys anyway.", "Back people: this is racist.\nRacist people: (see u/Muzzmann11's comment).", "It's the *intentional lack of effort* that is the problem.\n\nGiven that the issues with AI misidentifying darker skin have been around for years, it is certain that Facebook was aware that this was a potential problem with their AI. Rather than thoroughly test their AI to see if the issue occurred--or even better, proactively implement one or more of the solutions devised by other companies who have faced this very problem, they decided to release their AI as-is.\n\nWhat does this tell you? It tells you that they don't care if they make a preventable error that once again dehumanizes black people, because they know that they'll get off with a simple, insincere apology, and spending a little more time and effort to avoid dehumanizing people simply isn't worth it to them.\n\nAnd that is why the apology should not be accepted.", "I accidentally killed you. Are you alive because it wasn't intentional?", "Facebook said sorry, in your puny mind that implies guilt moreso than a mistake.  Shouldn't you be outraged and cancelling their shit by now?", "People are this kid. That is the world - maybe that's the point of my story. I had a little wime earlier, I should go to bed. Why are you so angry? I'm just happy someone saw my post, usually by this point, anything you write just gets buried and no one even reads it.", 'Hitting false positives and classifying black people, and only black people, as primates.\n\nThese same black people that were subjected to hundreds of years of dehumanization, a common theme of which was comparing them to animals, usually apes or monkeys. \n\nIt’s impossible then to see how this is at all racist, right? \n\nFucking idiot.', 'Training AI on data really means finding as many latent patterns in the data as possible.  Far too often, the strongest and most persistent pattern in the data is either sexism or racism.', 'The "AI" is just finding statistical correlations in the data you feed to it. It\'s not capable of racism. It all comes down to the training data you feed into it.\n\nUnfortunately, since racism is pervasive in the real world, it\'s very hard to find datasets that don\'t lead to results like this.', 'I know others have answered already, but here manybe a more ELI5.\n\nSoftware written by humans could be racist (if black person increase price by 50%).\n\nAI is special software however, where no human specifically writes the rules. The general order of operations is the following:\n\n1) show the AI one/a few/many pictures (depending on use) and say "in all those pictures there is one bird each"\n\n2) the AI will try to figure out what those pictures have in common (e.g. all birds have 2 wings on the side of their body)\n\n3) any new picture shown to the AI will be subjected to the rule created at step 2). If it matches its rules it will say "thats a bird", because that what it was trained to do. It doesnt know what a bird is, just roughly what it looks like. If you were to show it a picture of a plane it could be like "yep, it has 2 wing-like things, might be a bird" if thats the criteria it comes up with. (Error can be reduced with more input data)\n\nIf there are bad data/tags in step 1), then the AI will still proceed with step 2), because it cannot determine whats good and whats bad data. It is merely told "do your best to find similarities in those pictures". Meaning that if in step 1) you give it a picture of an PoC, and it is tagged as "primate" because of racism or something, then it will start connecting f.E. dark skin color with the word \'primate\'. Therefore, it might say "thats a primate" when being shown another picture of a PoC. The AI itself has no idea what that word means, its just saying what it was told in the beginning based on the rules it came up with.\n\nImagine this: you have never seen a PoC nor have you seen an ape before. Someone shows you a picture of an PoC and says "This is an ape". You know of nothing that could trigger a "wait a moment thats wrong"-reaction. The next time you see a PoC your brain is like "hold up, I have seen this rough image before. I was told this was an ape. Therefore, this being in front of me must also be an ape." You are not intentionally racist in this moment, its just that you were taught racist stuff before and didnt know any better.', 'There has been some recent research on removing biases from models which learned the biases of the underlying data, but it is still very limited. More often than not models come out even more biased than the input because these biases are easier to learn than the unbiased predictors. The bias reduction techniques seem to mostly reduce this bias amplification, it also comes at significant cost to model accuracy.', 'No, I or you can be racist, software and AI have no self-awareness for that.', 'An AI needs to learn, a bit like a human have to do growing up. So if human was presented during his life that black people are primates, when he would be shown a picture of a black person, it would be normal for him to say it was a primate, this is what he learned. So if the AI was shown racist element and not enough counterpoint to weigh them out, it reacted as it is suposed to.', 'The use of AI is why people are arguing for diversity hiring in technology more than ever. If you’re a developer involved in this kind of work it needs to be in as diverse an environment as possible - genders ethnicities abilities etc, precisely because it will drastically reduce the chances of this kind of thing happening. \n\nUnfortunately the idea of diversity in hiring is a bit of a touchy subject for a Very vocal subgroup of people, so it’s hard to emphasize enough it’s value.', 'Yeah, its a known problem with AI. It magnifies the biases of the data you feed it.', 'Yes. All you get is all you feed. If you give racist data, you get racist results. AI right now is just glorified pattern matching and replication.', 'An AI is incapable of racism, but the people who design or train it are.', 'Omfg seriously?', 'Garbage in, garbage out', "Broadly speaking, there are two kinds of machine learning; supervised and unsupervised. Unsupervised machines just separate data into categories depending on criteria and trends and things and maybe a person will tune it a bit. Supervised machines depend on an expert human or objective test to provide the right answers.  \n\nThe problem is that for many large projects the job of supervising has been farmed out to some (usually self-selected) section of the general public. This not only sets you up for selection bias but also for the conscious and unconscious biases of those people.  \n\nThe hope of these companies is that there'll be a large enough group of users behaving well enough that the system is generally reliable and that when problems crop up they can be solved by filtering the inputs and outputs. For a lot of the time this actually works but it also means that problems will be exposed to the public before they can be fixed. That's why you see this kind of apology so often.", 'All about the data you feed the model. Like an impressionable child, racism is taught. \n\nhttps://www.theverge.com/2016/3/24/11297050/tay-microsoft-chatbot-racist', 'Multiple past AI projects that learned from interactions online had to be shut down because they became racist among other problems.', 'Fixed, thank you!', 'Yeah, it\'s good that they pulled it and offered an apology, that was the right thing to do. But the AI may have just incorrectly categorized due to flawed categorization abilities. \n\nI remember when I had Facebook, and for some reason one time when I signed on, I was able to see the keywords they threw on my pictures. One was "adult man, two children", which was mostly right.. except the 2nd child they were counting was a chair with a very unrealistic doll on it. The software isn\'t perfect.', 'It has to do with the training set', "Here's another one, mods!", "Haha. I don't dare ask her.", "If the neural network is 6+ weeks old it's illegal to abort it.", 'You just explained that concept 10x better than my AI teacher who has 2 PhDs', "If you put a bunch of correctly labeled pictures of gorillas and black people it will learn the difference, there's no reason this cannot be done, this only happened becaused clearly they trained the algorithm using pictures of animals and white people.", 'I ink wood', 'Yea at this point Iv seen this same headline w so many diff developers that I think it’s bad only bc, how tf could they not see this coming and plan to avoid it?? Like the fact they couldn’t see this coming yet when I think of facial recognition in general one of my first thoughts is of it failing to see black people. Like c’mon n this isn’t some small company this is one of the big ones...', '“If the training data contained only white people” for what characteristics = humans? That’s not voluntary racism? \nWhat is it, then?', 'The typical blunder is training on a data set of "people in my team", which engineers do all the time. It\'s why IT rolls out weird password policies and crappy user interactions. \n\nEngineers are terrible at human stuff. A successful project involving humans needs broader interaction (gasp, a feeeeeemale). This lesson should have been learned after HP\'s camera blunder, but apparently project managers are still crap too.', "Because clearly that's not the sole issue. There is no way that Google Photos hasn't had billions upon billions of images of black people to train the AI on, and they still aren't confident enough in its ability not to make this misclassification. \n\nThere is probably no company on earth with more machine learning experience than Google, nor more data points to use to train them. If they are still finding it hard to be 100% confident their AI will not misidentify a black man as a monkey then clearly the problem is much more complex than just using more diverse data points", 'The Google exec said:\n\n>"[It was] high on my list of bugs you \'never\' want to see happen."\n\nIf he was that worried of this happening, I\'m sure they fed the system enough data to prevent it from happening.', "That's not how it works.\n\nIf there's any human error, it's not due to biased programming. It's due to biased data sets.", "i'm surprised it didn't cause an uproar when a face swap app prioritizes a jack-o-lantern or a pile of dirty laundry over an actual person's face. it's disappointing how irrational and unhinged people get when that racism spice gets sprinkled in.\n\nbut really though, am i actually that ugly?! who do i get mad about this to?", "Oh yeah passive racism. That's racism where someone else is required to project intent onto you for racism to exist.\n\nLove your work 2021", "The point of AI is that it sorta learns itself, it's up to who makes it to provide enough quality data for it to learn correctly. Stfu with that passive racism trash", 'The racism was in the selection of photos they used to train the AI on what a human looks like, there were too few black people. It is probably the fault of whoever provided the training photos', "You're strawmanning.\n\nIt's more likely the downvotes disagree with\n\n>Even if it was a mistake it was one that shouldn’t have occurred.\n\n1) it's not a mistake. Humans are primates. \n\n2) This is a machine learning algorithm for image recognition. It's not its responsibility to be cognizant of everything that is offensive in history.", 'But is it really a big deal? Like this is the epitome of first world problem', 'It’s the historical connotations and people can’t understand that it’s not racism if it’s an honest mistake', 'The funny part is the inputs can be different but the outputs are always racism --> shutdown', 'Second that - FB has no excuse', 'No, they make money by providing the data set in the first place.', 'Nah they need that extra 15 000 to buy Zuck another human skinsuit.', 'The landscape of an error function is something no amount of money can control.', "No they don't. Even if they could I don't think it would be as comprehensive a set as every photo ever posted on Facebook of a primate", 'Hahaha you underestimate the size and cost of these datasets.', 'Google have more image data points than anyone on earth, and they still struggle with this exact issue', "I'm sure glad he couldn't play for two days, that'll show him not to respond to toxic players, those poor people who got called a name after specifically trying to make the experience of casual players worse.", "Yeah, you'd think these would be locked into the test dataset since it's a well-known deficiency in models like this.", 'They use *their outrage* as a vehicle for their narcissism. It\'s little more than than.\n\nIf they\'re outraged, and can signal that to other people, then they\'re important.\n\nIf it\'s just "Bug report submitted at Facebook. Fix will be released shortly" then this article has no utility as a vehicle for their own narcissism.\n\nThe real algorithmic mechanism we should be talking about is the fact that the internet rewards this kind of behaviour and is using humans as nodes in a machine designed to leverage narcissism in order to drive conflict and increase sales.', 'The issue is that there should be a neural net for that at the end for a final check. Yes you probably can\'t train an algorithm to distinguish humans and primates arbitrarily 100% of the time but you can train one that distinguishes between dark skinned people and primates. Everytime the first algorithm says "primate", you run the input through the second algorithm to make sure.\n\nThe blunder here also isn\'t that machine learning is imperfect. The issue is that Facebook always appeals to their AI capabilities as the reason why they\'re the only people who can be trusted with a social network of their size. At every congressional hearing, Zuckerberg says "this is bad now but we can solve it with AI very soon". The real blunder is that facial recognition of dark skinned people has been one of the earliest and most researched areas of image recognition and AI ethics for the past decade. If Facebook\'s AI division is incompetent enough to let this obvious error make it into production, how can we we trust them to detect much squishier concepts such as "threat of actionable violence" or "misinformation"?\n\nIf an undergrad designed this then yeah, back to the drawing board. But when a trillion dollar company that commands billions of hours of the world\'s attention every day makes an oversight like this, then they clearly don\'t have a good test pipeline and should probably not be allowed to deploy AI to like 2.5 billion people.', '>\tFor what I know\n\nI believe I addressed that. \n\nI don’t believe I said there is no difference in detecting black and white faces. Simply that your understanding and explanation of image processing and of what is likely occurring in this article is off. \n\n>\twhite skin wins\n\nThis isn’t a competition. Likely a latent bias in your training data.', 'No…it’s because people don’t want to spend the time and effort and money to solve the problem, which is racist in and of itself. \n\nAnd to the contrary, technology has thrived despite racism', 'Poorly labeled data that has specific biases towards certain races.', "I don't know currently, but it was an issue with early AI.  It is company to company dependent, as well as engineering group dependent.  Even still, if you take the racial proportions of the US, it will still create bias against minorities simply because there is more data from non-minorities to train on.", "Bias in AI is a well researched hot topic. I actually make learning models so I can say I'm more qualified than most people on this topic. This problem isn't a lighting issue, this is a problem with general underrepresentation in datasets. Hell, even anecdotally speaking you know damn well that even in poor lighting no one is mistaking a black person for a primate/ape. So what do you think is causing this discrepancy? The answer is bias within the data itself. I'm not going to sugar coat this -  you're passionately making false claims about shit you don't understand to blow off a very real problem here.\n\nOne of the major problems in image recognition right now when it comes to people is that models are indeed trained significantly more data of white people over other minorities. That's just a fact. Accept it. And in addition, researchers training these systems sometimes aren't as mindful enough to catch implicit biases in their datasets and analysis, causing the overall model to be less effective. This is a big topic in AI ethics going right now.\n\nYou denial and defense is extremely concerning.", 'Hate to break it to you, but unrepresentative data has way more of an effect than the difference in light reflection resulting from different skin tones.\n\nHere’s just one example.\n\n>\tAlgorithms developed in Asian countries had smaller differences in error rates between white and Asian faces, suggesting a relationship “between an algorithm’s performance and the data used to train it,” the researchers said. [source](https://www.washingtonpost.com/technology/2019/12/19/federal-study-confirms-racial-bias-many-facial-recognition-systems-casts-doubt-their-expanding-use/)\n\nThis is widely known and anyone in the field worth their salt will tell you the same thing.', ">it's not farfetched to believe that they didn't even consider their tech would be racist during implementation.\n\nThe tech isn't racist. Look up the definition of racism (not on Reddit or Tumblr).\n\nIt's more likely they did not correct for the American public's capacity to get offended at everything.", ">Do you honestly think they'd willingly release a product that would land them in hot shit due to perceived racism?\n\nDid they not do that?", '"As an engineer", yeah, train it better. Engineers are systematically arrogant. Miscategorizing people has been a blunder since HP\'s camera, so it\'s not like this is new.', 'Also as an engineer: yes, I am. I was an engineer and am now a data scientist, and yes I know how and why this happened, but just because its technically understandable doesn\'t mean it\'s forgivable from a business perspective. Part of the problem is that coders don\'t give image classifiers our contextual knowledge, so of course they fail on edge cases. It\'s not "easy" but tough shit, think through what you\'re doing, and plan for this. \n\nIf they haven\'t considered this after 10+ years of companies getting in trouble for the same problem, it\'s even more ridiculous.\n\nThis is a technically hard problem, but did nobody say "hey, if the classifier has x% overlap in confidence between these two categories, return no result - we don\'t need that press"? Or better, train it to recognize only black faces first, because extending face definitions from black to white is easier than the other way around.', "Who's training the program?  People are.  People are also the ones who approve/disapprove results and trends (ala what's going on here).", 'No one is scared of current AI. People are worried about what AI could become.', 'And all our exercise of voting has done is show that we will still not have a representative government working in our interests', 'counterthought:  We _do_ have a representative  government working for our *collective* interest, but certain parties have subverted the interest of a functional plurality such that the collective interest is *their* interest, on average.\n\ntl;dr: someone 51% attacked democracy because people are generally idiots.', 'That’s a funny way of saying “Russia and China are both explicitly and rapidly developing the technology because they see it as the next nuclear weapon and therefore any attempt at curbing AI legally will be both deleterious and impossible.”', "Well, the same thing could happen if the AI is developed by a totalitarian government, putting the regulation of AI in the hands of any majority-determined government will also have its issues. And putting it to a vote can have stupid consequences as we've seen...so...what are the other options? Maybe an AI constitution voted for by a consortium including multiple companies, universities, people and government...or some weighed cost function balancing out profits like maximize human development index - ecological footprint\n\nPS: aaand an AI with ecological motivations would probably just try to murder most of us, because if we destroy our habitat we kill profits and lives et al in the long run anyway...", 'Could an AI really play a market ran by another AI?', "That's us ruining IT, not the other way around.", 'It’s definitely proof… but at the same time I wonder if it would categorise a picture of capitalists as pigs 🤷\u200d♂️', "This is why it's called a *cultural* layer. Because there's a cultural lens through which we interpret the world. To pretend otherwise is just willfully stupid.\n\ne.g. Calling Barrack Obama a monkey is racist, because there's a layer of negative cultural and historical connections and connotations associated between those terms.\n\nBut calling Trump an orange is fine (in the sense that the worst thing it is is just bullying rather than racism), because there's literally no negative cultural or historical connection between any of those elements. The closest example might be like if you called someone a fruit, since an orange is a fruit, but anyone with any cultural saliency can understand that there's no relationship there with Trump.\n\nIn the case of a white guy being called a naked mole rat by AI, it's not even bullying. There's literally no intent, nor any cultural connections. That's why it's funny. It's pretty obvious, really, which means all your doing is just being a dumbfuck on the internet because you're bored and want to loudly proclaim your irrelevant, malformed opinions about politics.", 'What does that look like, and how would you implement it?', "I don't think that's why.", "You literally gave links to support what I said. These are trained by humans. It's not the ai that's racist.", 'Everyone wants to make believe that this is racist, but anyone reasonable would admit that that on occasion any well intentioned AI will mix up darker people with other great apes. Just like if there were giant naked mole rats, AI would mistake white people for them.', "The progressive take is and has always been that the lack of diversity in the creation of AI leaves them susceptible to structural biases in their implementation. It's not political correctness that's stopping anything from getting done. \n\nYou're right though, a couple people will be made the scapegoats and nothing will fundamentally change. Since no one wants to solve real issues around the lack of diversity.", "The simple solution is to massively hire minorities into all roles ~~where these issues can pop up~~, but anytime someone suggests we should hire based off of disadvantaged groups some people start complaining loudly.\n\nEDIT: I am leaving this comment up because it specifically shows the level of resentment when anyone implies we should hire with affirmative action in mind **to strengthen the product.** The product can't ship like this. We need someone specifically for their race. That person's minority status alone is worth any perceived difference in skill. But some people can't look past that.", "it's an algorithm it cannot inherently *be* racist", "Not that easy. Primates is a wide category that includes humans and other apes, monkeys, and others. Plenty of primates have light colored faces like white people.\n\nNow, if it were great apes, which includes humans, gorillas, chimps, and orangutans; then it might be in the scope you're referring to since those are the few known with dark faces. Monkeys tend to have lighter faces. And most primates have diverse colored faces.\n\nSo the fact that it did this has a lot to do with the racist association between black people and great apes. It's AI right? Then it definitely has access to such human bias. The fact that it said primate, which a super wide category, and not even ape, or great apes preferably, makes the racist aspect of it jump out.\n\nI found this funny honestly, but as someone who took a primate intro class, and know of human racism, I can understand the outrage, especially with some of the comments floating on here.", "You seriously think\n\n>Facebook *has always had conservative leanings* and *is even pro-fascist* in their election meddling.\n\nEDIT I see you updated your post with links. Doesn't matter, since your source for Facebook's supposed conservative leanings is that Mark Zuckerberg once invited some Republican politicians over. That article then mentions:\n\n>A spokesperson for Facebook, noting Zuckerberg's recent **meetings in Washington with Democrats**, said in a statement, “For years, Mark Zuckerberg has met with elected officials and thought leaders all across the political spectrum.”\n\nI guess he's leaning in all directions then? You're really grasping for straws.", "No, they are saying that in non-white majority nations, the same issue occurs with training AI. It is simply harder for the software to recognize darker images, so your data sets would need to be very well lit which is not always attainable or even enough, or it does not work with what the AI is trying to accomplish.\n\nThis is also why this type of facial recognition should not be used by governments for law enforcement or anything else. It is fact that if you are black, facial recognition might be less effective at correctly identifying you. Imagine the police have a security camera video of a crime being committed by a black person, they run the data and come back with a match from facebook or whatever, and they arrest the wrong person.\n\nThe AI doesn't have as much trouble with people with lighter complexions. I'm sure someone out there is working on a study comparing effectiveness of AI facial recognition in varying complexions, and lighter skinned vs darker skinned black people probably will have varying results of accuracy.\n\nThis is why facial recognition tech needs to be limited. I would be interested to see if the same things occur if they take a white European in blackface vs a black African in whiteface and see if the same issues occur", 'No, Japanese and Chinese AI also has issues recognizing dark skinned people.   \n\n\nAI uses angles and points, this requires light reflection...dark skin does not reflect light as well thus making it harder. This is a technical issue and not easy to overcome. They have had more success with High Def cameras that can scan in UHD resolution but that shit is not in use in security cams and thus is not helping the issue at all. Facebooks crap, also has not been using UHD, same with so many others.\n\nThis tech is still in its infancy and cannot be expected to do everything.', 'All humans are primates. So, it\'s only correct to have everyone categorized as that.\n\nBut the racism, or AI bias, jumps out because most primates do not even look similar to black people.\nThis AI seems to be programmed to a really small category of primates that only include great apes like  gorillas, chimps.\n\nYou can\'t look at a lemur or tarsier and think "wow, they look like a black person." And both of those are primates like humans.\n\nThey should expand the primate category the AI has been programmed to identify.', 'Just because you’re offended by something doesn’t mean it’s automatically racist😂. Bro it’s literally artificial intelligence, it’s a computer. It learns by getting input from pictures and uses heuristics to determine what other pictures are depicting. You are basically saying this is racist https://imgur.com/a/kXC7afn', "ofc they care or they would not be issuing a apology and possibly risking shares falling, sometimes accidents happen, it's life.", 'That would be called manslaughter, the difference is i have no choice in been dead in your scenario but i have a choice of feeling offended, while knowing it was a accidental mistake.', 'Lol imagine equating murder to a half baked unintentional comment… 🤡🤡🤡', "You are so far off base its obnoxious.  Nothing i said implies guilt of anything. Unless, you're just bad at hitting reply on the correct comment. \n\nThe only thing puny here is your reading comprehension.", "The computer doesn't give a single crap what any human has experienced. Your optics and bias are not its. Now the real question is how are humans training it. Because, I can train one to call you a baboon . . Oh wait.. you don't know how to ask the right questions, that's right.\n\nYou just felt clever for a few seconds while calling me...what was it? Oh, yes. A fucking idiot.  That would be you, you primate.\n\nI can see exactly how... accurate your assessment was. Might wana go examine your own faults and leave the tech to engineers.", 'It is racist - who would argue with that?', 'You can lear a lot about human cognition this way as well. Our neural nets train on data and efficiently correlate the most obvious variables. As humans, we naturally notice physical differences among our species easily, such as sex and race. If there is bias in the data, we will have bias in our reasoning. Because the mind weights earlier data higher than later data, we get stuck in our ways as we get older. This is why it is important to show diversity in successful role models to young people, in order to erase any bias (nurses are usually women, so men must not be good at nursing) when such bias in the data set may be just feedback from earlier data.\n\nRacism and sexism in humans is probably just feedback from history.', ">Far too often, the strongest and most persistent pattern in the data is either sexism or racism\n\nAlmost like, I don't know, humans have an inherent in-group bias and have a strong preference for tribalism.", '"Everything is racist and sexist and it has to be pointed out"', "the techniques AI use, not only find such latent patterns, it often unintentionally amplifies such biases. I know data scientists and ML prefer to blame the data. They are right if datasets wasn't biased, the results won't be. But the algorithms are not blameless either.", 'I mean you just described Facebook and their main demographic', 'You know nothing about computer science and your post makes absolutely no sense', 'The current fashion is to detect covert or intrinsic age- sex- and racism in just about everything. Jane Austen exemplifies gender biassed white privilege, etc and so forth, ad infinitum. There is an interesting paper to be had in training a neural network to find whether this is so or no: does a specific system fo categorisation arise when specific texts are used to train it?', 'You would have thought they would have caught on as first this happened back in 2016... https://www.cbsnews.com/news/microsoft-shuts-down-ai-chatbot-after-it-turned-into-racist-nazi/', 'Very old "rule": Garbage In, Garbage Out.', 'I don\'t really see how "racism in the real world" would translate to an image classification system.', 'Well, in some sense we are all just "finding some correlations" from world (data). again, in some sense, that\'s how human social structures, socialization etc goes.\nWe are not born racist but "programmed" into one. More or less.', '\n>Imagine this: you have never seen a PoC nor have you seen an ape before. Someone shows you a picture of an PoC and says "This is an ape".\n\nHold up a minute. That\'s a strong accusation right there and almost certainly didn\'t happen.\n\nInstead what likely happened is that the dataset is "colorblind" and biased, as in no seperation between black and white human, it\'s just human, but also more/mostly white people.\n\nSo what we have then is that we get a dataset where we have tons of humans, but 9 out of 10 are white, so for the AI it\'s still 90% accurate if it doesn\'t recognize black people correctly at all (and sometimes it will get it right as well).\n\nBut the dataset is not only humans. It includes objects and animals, including primates. Then the dataset quickly reaches a point where white skin is human is mostly true, dark skin is primate is mostly true, because based on the dataset and just this one feature this is the case. It doesn\'t help that humans ARE primates. So generalized features like eyes, brows, upright, 4 limbs, etc. Are true for both and skin color becomes the most obvious separator.\n\nAnd a certain error is acceptable. All the engineer sees is "good f1 score, good ROC, many true positives, few false positives".\n\nBut of course we should be past that. We\'ve seen this exact problem many times already and that a company that mainly deals with images of humans still has this error is a joke. Aren\'t they supposed to have the best engineers? And they haven\'t heard of bias in AI? They didn\'t have a test case for this well known and controversial AI bias scenario? The company that literally is a book of human faces doesn\'t have such a test case to detect human faces over animals?', 'Sounds like solving a problem with another problem to me. I don’t think this will work out in the long term. The knowledge gained will be interesting to pour over.\n\nSo most a.i functions through biases and pattern recognition ( you didn’t mention patterns but learning a lot in this thread)? Do you know of any other approaches A.I is taking?', 'I read about that, great insight on how we learn from others. It’s a clue as to how the next generation may be coming up and without guidance, we can have some real distorted views about life', 'How do you provide a counter point to a social construct? I understand the bird analogy since that’s biological data   but racism has no hard science behind it, no genetic markers, it seems to be a social idea that we still haven’t moved passed as a society.\n\nMy confusion lies in that, can an A.I be racist with no concept of race to inform it? It knows the words and collects data but there’s no “feeling” fueling that', 'Diversity how? In your interests? In groups? If a white male has  data across all these segments you suggested, then what’s the difference to A.I?', 'I don’t think this is a problem of racism. We are getting racist results but it’s letting us know that there’s a flaw in the system  that’s in our blind spot. \n\nStopping language and trolls will only intensify their cause, this never works. There must be a work around or another way of seeing intelligence.', 'Okay, this makes sense to me. Diversity casts a larger data net than what’s currently at work', 'You seem less upset about it.    \n    \nWould this have been as much of an issue if, instead, pictures of actual gorillas had been included in a normal category?', "Personally I struggle to imagine that this issue comes up so often without there being some significant oversight in the process. If you're building this AI to recognise humans and don't check that it works with all races, that's on you to keep working on it until it does before release. You wouldn't release a car you were building before making sure it didn't randomly combust 10 miles after purchase", "As an AI engineer I can assure you, no matter how many correctly labeled pictures you will feed to the neural net, if there is a bad combination of algorithms or they are poorly executed, it won't be able to tell a grizzly bear from a kitten. If all it took was to endlessly feed pictures to it, we'd have a Skynet among us by now.", "I'm pretty sure both Google and Facebook have billions of photos we happily ask them to hold onto, of every race under the sun.\n\nI'm guessing it's much more to do with camera's not having the high dynamic resolution that human eyes have. We can see something covered in shadows and know that it's one color under different lighting. We can see in bright sunlight and in the middle of the night. \n\nCameras can't read subtleties in darker light compared to brighter light. Hence, easier recognition of fair-skinned people.", "> how tf could they not see this coming and plan to avoid it??\n\nWouldn't surprise me if no one wanted to bring it up. Like, would you stand up and say that black people might get recognized as primates?", 'Unidentified racial bias. As that bias got green lit through several layers of product development, it inched its way into structural race-blindness, until release day, whereupon it has matured into the inevitable race-based P.R. blunder.\n\nMaybe we should get some of these STEM folks a little more experience in liberal arts. You know, philosophy, communications. They’re worse than useless without it. A liability, really.', "Indeed. People talk shit here and I am certain everyone who blames Google, Facebook and others for making racist AIs know jack shit about machine learning and it's complications.", "That's not racism.\n\nIt may be a bias, but that does not suffice to call this racism. Stop crying wolf. You are diminishing the impact of the word.", 'That was initial thought when this problem first appeared years ago, but the fact that Google Photos, which has billions and billions of training photos, is still having to disable searches for "monkey" as they\'re not confident this won\'t happen shows that the problem is much deeper than the diversity of training photos', 'What do you mean outputs are always racism?', 'Hopefully they get a higher quality one this time. The current one really lets the lizard show.', "Hey, fair enough. Thanks for providing context.\n\n>that'll show him not to respond to toxic players\n\nStill, this would unironically be for the best.", "Couldn't agree more.  The feedback mechanisms behind outage driven clicks are far more likely to drive racial discrimination and racial conflict than anything else mentioned here", 'Bruh. It\'s an edge case. Number of vids with black people that this model recognised correctly probably goes in 100s of thousand. The main characteristics of edge cases is that it\'s really hard to predict them and eliminate. Programming and machine learning are not as simple as "I don\'t want mislabel black people so I just drop in another NN". An what if there is another edge case where both of them pass through another wrong answer like this? You throw in ANOTHER AI? This is not the solution and people should just be patient and wait for the tech to mature completely before throwing judgement.', ">it will still create bias against minorities simply because there is more data from non-minorities to train on.\n\nThat assumption is just plain wrong.\n\nClassification bias depends on the training model not only on unbalanced datasets. There are also many easy ways to fix the issue even if you're using a model susceptible to unbalanced datasets.\n\nTl;dr you have no idea what you're talking about", 'I wish more people would read "The Alignment Problem." I never even understood about AI ethics or that a dataset, well... most datasets are biased towards white people when it comes to classifying people until I read that book (which doesn\'t make me an expert or anything, just helps me better understand). It\'s horrible to see so many upvoted comments about how lighting and "physical properties of skin" are to blame and not biased datasets.\n\nI wish I had studied AI ethics in school because it\'s such a fascinating field that\'s so new. Luckily it\'s gaining more traction recently.', 'So should the data set have equal amounts of all races, or should it be proportionate to the diversity of the source country(in this case the US) cause if that’s the case then the Data set would be 76% white which seems problematic', "Hate to break it to you but the only thing I'm doing here is joining your hate to break it to you train", "> Algorithms developed in Asian countries had smaller differences in error rates between white and Asian faces,\n\nAsian faces occupy a similar range of skin tones as Caucasian faces.\n\n> suggesting a relationship “between an algorithm’s performance and the data used to train it,”\n\nThis is axiomatic, not a rebuttal. If you think this is a rebuttal, you have no exposure to machine learning methods.\n\n> This is widely known and anyone in the field worth their salt will tell you the same thing.\n\nIt's actually widely known that certain images are harder to process and anyone in the field worth their salt will tell you the same thing.", '> or the blackness of black faces preventing computers from doing it. Like, at all.\n\nProve it, because what we know about how light works says otherwise', "i'm afraid of business people who have no idea what ai is but think it'll solve all of their problems. these people are scary... seriously, i've been pitched some fucked up shit, including ”business models” with exit strategies involving blaming things on the bot.", 'Perhaps we should stop voting for lawyers who think everything can be solved by law', 'Perhaps because we suck at voting.', 'Lol a majority dominated government\n\nYou mean a democracy?', 'Haha, cute.', "Can you point to me the event or cultural period where monkeys gained the negative connotation you're describing?", 'I think what will end up happening is there will be, instead of arbitrary pixel groupings and shapes leading to opaque features learned and used to infer some macro-level thing, it will instead identify more granular and definable features. Like instead of looking at pixels and ramming it through the network and saying "Fish", you would get many observations like "scales, gills, underwater context, eyes, no eyelids, fins". \n\nAnd then a logic layer would put those together to reason about what it\'s looking at. And a cultural layer will judge the logic layer to make sure that certain things, while perfectly logical, are culturally and contextually unacceptable. \n\nThe reason this is culturally unacceptable in the first place isn\'t because it\'s incorrect, it\'s because it\'s a slur intended to deride and marginalize. The fact is, it stuck, and was a popular slur, because apes have black skin. So you need a cultural layer to combat this using the context of the last few generations.', "Well, now the motherfucker's got +11 so fuck me, I guess.", "It really is just due to the limit of technology. AI relies on angles and points which require light reflections and dark skin does not reflect light. Because of that, it cannot make out the details at least without a UHD camera...so, with no details it will try to match it to something else, gorilla's, apes and the like.", 'That’s not a great take, though.  As a white man I can’t make a sandwich classification AI without consulting women and other races because it might end up being racist?  Or is the issue restricted to AI that are trained on datasets somehow related to people?  In which case, just make sure your dataset is diversified.', 'Did you just say companies should hire people based off of color and race and to hire many, just encase they need them? Seriously, do you even think past your feelings...lol.', '"Let\'s hire underqualified people based solely on the colour of their skin so we can teach AI to not be racist"', 'You can\'t expect companies to hire anyone other than someone that can produce them the move value.  If they aren\'t already hiring those minorities, then that leaves you with two options, subsidize hiring of minorities (which would likely only increase resentment), or provide additional educational incentives to try to make sure that more of those minorities are in the upper tier of productivity.\n\nThe NSF is really pushing "Broadening Participation in Computing" requirements for funding, so maybe this problem will start working itself out.  It still increases resentment, but I don\'t think its taken as harshly when you don\'t get funded for a graduate position you wanted, as opposed to not getting hired for a job.  At least in grad school you usually have paper grading to fall back on.', 'It\'s a system designed by humans that intentionally or not produces a racist result. How can you look at the result of this classification and think "no problem here."', "Bots and old people can have that kind of impact on the world. I don't know what's difficult about that to understand.", ">The AI doesn't have as much trouble with people with lighter complexions\n\nIt really really depends. Ive worked on this stuff, for the movie industry. Young white girls with good skin are as difficult to work with, unless they have freckles or something. Also if they put on a lot of foundation makeup. From a computer standpoint, uniform textures are low information, whether its dark or pale.", 'You\'re right. A machine called black men monkeys so it\'s not racist. If a human did that, it would have been racist, but because it was a machine, it wasn\'t. Ok. Let\'s say that machine made an honest mistake and took your house, are you homeless or not? Now let\'s say you are homeless, and you said as much, am I not wrong in saying, "you are not homeless, because the bank didn\'t take your house, a machine did; it\'s totally different?" Wait no it\'s different. A machine calling black men a racial slur isn\'t racist, and that has nothing to do with a machine kicking you out of your house.', "The problem is that it keeps happening. It's no coincidence that the group of people that are consistently underrepresented by the outcomes of these technologies are also the least represented group making up the employees of the companies that create the technology. These algorithms learn by analyzing millions of photos provided to them by the engineers, and the demographics of tech companies are skewed pretty far from the demographics of the population outside the company.", 'Who gave you permission to speak to me?', 'I’m an engineer and I literally worked on a project last year using this exact technology to determine if x-rays of thoracic cavity showed evidence of covid lung as opposed to other types of scarring. \n\nBut your little whiny rant was cool.', 'Me. Its not a human calling a human a racist word. Heck, racism is something only humans do. This AI isn\'t theory of a mind exercising emotional intelligence. It was trained based on other similar markings to label things. Ergo " false positive". As in = incorrect. The nice black human is not a primate. Obviously. Duh.', 'This is why you should be testing your models to ensure they don’t have this type of bias. It’s a well known issue that these models get racist fast so as the data scientist it’s your responsibility to performance tests to see if a bias exists in the model.', 'That argument is as flawed as "Children only know how to hate because they are taught to hate." IF that was true than how did the first person ever learn to hate?\n\nIts more that Humans innately hate things that are different and are irrational. \n\nEven if we wiped put Sexism and Racism today, it would be back with a decade or two.', '>As humans, we naturally notice physical differences among our species easily, such as sex and race.\n\n\n\nYes. Now have you ever tried to tell if a dog across the street is male or not? Sometimes, it can be pretty hard to tell. If someone you trusted said "All dogs with white fur on its nose are female", maybe that\'s how you\'d start trying to guess. Human input is full of bias and fallacy. Feeding that to a computer who doesn\'t have the ability to distinguish things and lacks the ability we have to attempt to recognize problems in input and whether or not to toss it out can have damaging results. We definitely need better models on recognizing bias and fallacies. We as humans have to the ability to use introspection in order to analyze our bias (if we choose to) but...\n\n\n\n*what the hell does that even mean*?\n\n\n\nAlso, it would probably help to have black developers work on problems in relation to distinguishing black people. It\'s hard to know what you don\'t know and I don\'t know what it\'s like to be black. I remember automatic soap dispensers having issues picking up darker skin tones. Diversity in development and testing is important.', "No. Its what happens when racist/sexist assholes get to interface with AI's. They discovered this way back in 2016. https://www.cbsnews.com/news/microsoft-shuts-down-ai-chatbot-after-it-turned-into-racist-nazi/", "> Our neural nets train on data and efficiently correlate the most obvious variables.\n\nOr they don't. *Cries in AI research*", 'That is a bit reductionist of an argument but you’re probably not wrong. We’re all products of our natural and social environment.', 'I wonder if it is matching by skin color or some other feature.\n\nFor example, many South Indians have darker skin than African-Americans. Would the AI identify an especially dark-skinned Tamil, for example, as a primate, or was it something specifically in the African physiology (e.g., facial features) that was being identified as primate?\n\nIf so, it leads me to wonder how the AI would have classified an albino African.', 'I think the racist part here isn’t the algorithm, but rather that they didn’t spend the same time/effort to ensure that videos of black people weren’t tagged incorrectly at the same rate of white people.', 'Its completely possible for the AI to be trained as a racist if there are racial overtones in its training.\n\nThe AI derives its conclusions from a corpus of knowledge and requires humans to verify whether it’s predictions are accurate.\n\nYou build the corpus by injecting factoids like “All humans men are primates”, “Primates have haired body” and “The colour of body hair on primates is black”\n\nLike you said, unsurprisingly it drew the conclusion of coloured men and primates, but when being trained it does not know whether it’s predictions are correct, it gives a percentage of accuracy and it’s requires humans to tell it whether it’s conclusions are correct. Over time it makes better and more accurate predictions. The more you tell the AI it’s predictions are correct.\n\nThis where the training of racism and sexism  come into play. The AI may have categorised black men as “primates” and may have given itself a 5% probability of being correct, but if a bunch of racist POS people are training it and  telling the AI that it had made a 100% accurate prediction rather than “0%”. \n\n What do you think it is going to respond  when someone asks the AI the question “Are black men primates?”\n\nEdit: typo', "On the surface level, you've got the correct idea. But the neural network doesn't use colour as a feature. Algorithms as these use what's called a CNN which generates feature maps of the data they're given. They then learn patterns on these feature maps to get a rough idea what to look for in a an image for it to be a certain class. So any trained neural net that's got a good accuracy will realise that a tabby and a sphinx are both cats and the sphinx is not a human baby just because it lacks hair. So the data that FB's neural net was trained on had some racist data, which is prevalent in the biggest dataset - the internet.\n\nEliminating such biases is difficult because datasets are usually 300GBs minimum (with those for sophisticated tasks going in the range of a few terabytes)", 'It’s simpler than this. If you look at the specific video, the title includes “black man”. If you feed a model millions of videos on Facebook, your bound to come across racist comments like “monkey” or “gorilla”. This makes much more sense than an AI trying to classify a human —— I doubt it would classify a human as a gorilla with the preciseness of computer vision + the distinct features of humans. This is due to the AI being trained on comments and correlating that with the title/description', "I wouldn't assume that's the problem here, past machine learning projects like this have had to be shut down because they became racist, I could probably find an article I figured people would already know about those on here.", 'Yup. Racism is completely normal and natural.', 'Tags and comments. They are training it on social media users data.', 'Because that image classification system is built on user input. Somewhere, at some in time, images were put in front of people and they used words to describe what they saw. This is the foundation of image recognition. Take enough of those data sets and smash them together and there’s probably enough specifically racist or sexist descriptions of photos in those data sets to skew the AI.', "I wasnt saying that this was exactly what happened, I was giving an example where a human that has no knowledge of how an AI learns could (hopefully) somewhat understand that the AI did not intentionally give a racists answer. (Get image, categorize, apply rule to new images).\n\nThat being said, thats just about as far as my understanding of the matter goes, I am sure there are more clever ways/precautions you can take, but I'm no expert by any means.\n\nOther than that I agree with what you are saying. It should not happen, and it is unacceptable that it did.", 'As diverse as possible. \n\nYour instruction sets and data are strongly correlated with the performance of an AI. If you hire people from diverse backgrounds there’s a higher likelihood those problems will be addressed, or at least caught in the testing phase, than without them.', 'There are some Facebook groups that would make your eyes water, filled with exactly those sorts of tags.', "I agree, I just think that it is misleading to assign human-centric interpretations to the behaviors of AI.\n\nAI cannot be racist, because it doesn't care about your race, because it doesn't care full stop.\n\nIt can do things which seem racist, but it lacks the capacity for intent or malice that defines racism.\n\nA poorly designed AI being racist is no more malicious than a poorly designed toaster burning someone.", 'I have some really bad news about how eager law enforcement agencies are to get their hands on shiney new tech that says they can arrest more people.', "That's not at all how development works, certainly not for the past two decades. You don't sit there tweaking your tech until it's 100% complete. Competent have a decent understanding of scenarios where their tech will fail but as long as the legal liabilities don't cut too much into profits - they get their greenlight for a release.", "How exactly do you poorly execute these algorithms? I've only made some very basic visual recognition AI with python (recognizing hand written letters and numbers and stuff like that) and I'm sure there's a lot of things I'm not aware of, could you elaborate?", 'I know a lot of people who would stand up against. But they are black people, who are almost absent from this industry.', 'To clarify, racial bias is not the real bogey-man to a lot of theorists. We can get past it if we empower voices of people from different backgrounds. Just don’t be that guy who incorrectly calls himself the least racist person in the world just because it preserves your ego. That would be standing in the way of the work of identifying the biases in order to restructure society equitably to prevent these effects from rippling out and becoming systemic racism with real racist features that discriminate and marginalize.', 'That’s not true and saying that reduces the impact of actual racism.', 'Ya, I took a course and one of my autocaptioners thought Brad Pitt from Troy was "woman riding on horse".\n\nNow of course I didn\'t publish that to my billion user platform because the implication of getting it wrong would be damaging to my brand.', 'Calling black people monkeys when they’re not monkeys, they’re people', ">Still, this would unironically be for the best.\n\nI don't understand how, in practice in this case it's just removing people who actually want to play casual from the casual queue, so that it's harder who people who jump in to try to get some fun to do so, at least in the latam servers it's way too common to find people who do not intend to play casually in the casual lists in the least.\n\n\n\nI can only imagine you are thinking the name calling thing is a common occurrence and that's how it's better that he gets banned this one time, but that's a big assumption.", "That's clearly not what happened here though. Their dataset is video frames and their labelling is automatically scraped from descriptions and comments posted. Obviously there are a considerable number of videos including black people in their database which are assigned labels of 'primate', 'monkey', etc due to racist comments. This is obviously bad practise and shows they haven't sufficiently validated that their labelling is appropriate and are not paying enough attention to potentially racists patterns which might be creeping into their model.", ">I don't know currently, but it was an issue with early AI.\n\nMaybe that's why I added that into my comment.  But maybe you just need to feel better about yourself telling people they don't know what they're talking about, huh?  Do you feel better about yourself?", 'Hate to break it to you but the train is departing.', "You didn't read the article. The article states that in law enforcement in the united states, facial recognition systems are about 100x more likely to misidentify asian and black faces compared to white men, **Meanwhile,** facial recognition systems developed in asia had very similar error rates for white and asian faces. This suggests that the data used to train the systems has a tremendous influence on performance. The training data and its characteristics are at the crux of machine learning so dismissing it in your comments and claiming albedo and skin color is the whole reason tells me you have no idea what the hell you're talking about. This isn't a skin color issue like you keep stating without merit. You keep trying to sound confident and rebuke every statement yet continue to demonstrate a total lack self awareness, knowledge, and moral about the subject matter.\n\nReality has no inherent bias towards high or low albedo - albedo is a derived measurement of the amount of diffuse radiation being reflected by a surface. Our eyes pick up on light in a manner different from machines. \n\nYour comments are implying if features are too dark for a human eye then it can't be distinguished by computer vision - a statement which is obviously false. Machines processes *entirely* different from us, especially in the context of computational graphs and autoencoders when it comes to image recognition.", "But computers don't see light. Computers don't see black and white. Computers see #000000 and #FFFFFF, and lines, and try to learn shapes. If there is enough information in an image that we can tell the difference, then a computer could too.", 'A democracy is just 2 cats and a mouse sitting down and voting on who to eat for dinner. A democracy can 100% be totalitarian and incredibly oppressive, it just needs to persuade 50.01% of the rabble any given day to justify its actions.', "Yes. Read the trial and death of Socrates, by Plato. Democracies are not perfect systems. If we had actual AI, it would be able to go talk to absolutely everyone: have millions of 1h chats that you can then process into a political program that balances all views without a hidden agenda, rather than a foggy 1person-1vote system that throws away at most 49.999% of the voters' foggy views. And don't forget about systems like sortition too.", 'Look up crowds throwing bananas onto the field when a black football (soccer) player is playing. This is a modern example of a fairly long history of this comparison. A very quick search for "black person monkey racism" yielded a lot of results detailing this history (like [this](https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=2ahUKEwjXncm7mOfyAhX5wjgGHbrYAM8QFnoECAUQAQ&url=https%3A%2F%2Ftheconversation.com%2Fcomparing-black-people-to-monkeys-has-a-long-dark-simian-history-55102&usg=AOvVaw3BPmbUqFQ_YsUC4SjT66nf) one)', 'Your first point is really just a restatement of the idea that indecipherable models are bad. It’s all well and good to write a scale detector, or fur detector, or skin detector, and pipe that into some decision tree with clearly defined boundaries. That’s crudely how we used to make classifiers. It was pretty much clear in Alexnet that hand crafted features piped into classifiers was the loosing methodology. So while what you’re proposing is possible, at least from my understanding of current literature it’s certainly less powerful. \n\nWhat you’re describing as a ‘logic layer’ is really just any classifier at all. But I presume one with some modicum of transparency.\n\nRegarding your ‘culture layer’ how do you determine what’s culturally acceptable? Who is the arbiter of that. What rules do you program in? How do you provide training data on culturally acceptable outputs?\n\nMost of what you’re describing is essentially image processing and classification from over a decade ago. Systems which were considerably less accurate than the current sota.', "It doesn't really do matching. It's literally just textures. So it's going to be very sensitive to color, hair, contrast, etc. These algorithms are easily fooled by adding noise to the image.", "The issue here is that if someone were thinking about it they would have realized oh man we're getting a lot of false positives that wild technically reasonable are also socially offensive things to do so how would we prevent this from happening. Maybe we just don't have our AI tagging things as primate right now and put that on a black list of words and have that go to a separate data set flagged so that we now have direct comparisons on the data set of where black people and actual primates are overlapping.\n\nInstead of just letting it go live and go whoops this thing that we should have known was likely to happen just was completely unaccounted for. There's nothing wrong with saying our product can't handle x category at the moment\n\nTo fit your example while not necessarily racist an example might be is do you treat a gyro as a sandwich or not is that something you would have thought about? They're popular around the world and if you're not making sure that they fit into the proper spot of the definition you might end up with a confused meeting and in this situation it means almost nothing but it is something to think about", 'No one ever said it wasnt a technical problem. But it\'s a technical problem that wouldn\'t have made it to live if people were paying attention\n\nAlso ask yourself why is it that black people are underrepresented in a field of advanced study? A lack of opportunity already exists in the USA. You want to talk about equality of opportunity then let\'s work towards asking the hard questions like how do we deal with a complete lack of generational wealth for black people in the USA\n\n"The lack of diversity doesn\'t come from lack of opportunity. they just can\'t do the job" settle down', 'The far left has never believed in equal outcomes, you have no idea what you\'re talking about when you bring politics into the discussion. Karl Marx, who is seen as the reference to most far-left political movements, was always against absolute equality because different people have different needs. \n\n"From each according to his abilities, to each according to his needs". \n\nNothing equal about that outcome.', "I'm saying this company is short a few black people and so they can't ship their product. It's probably costing them a lot of money because they didn't bring the right people to the office.\n\nIf I went to a construction site and couldn't operate because I was missing a tall person to hold a high up sign, I clearly need to hire someone who can add that value. In this case FB is missing someone who is black. They better find that person quickly. And if they don't want that issue again, they should probably get to the bottom of why black people don't want to work for Facebook.", "haha you can't ship the product without them. Nothing 'underqualified' about that. Can you run a boat without gas? without the tires? No one says the tires are underqualified because they aren't the steering wheel.", 'The product is faulty. It can\'t ship. The product needs someone who is black to properly ship. The company pushes out diversity wide messages to hire more black people. \n\n"Instead, some "white men" will be fired,..." as they should be because they couldn\'t hire the right people for the job. They were too worried about little things that didn\'t matter because they shouldn\'t ship a working product. If I took my car to a mechanic, and they only made it accelerate, but not decelerate, I would fire my mechanic.', 'Please show us on the doll where the white man hurt you.', 'I think I see what the problem is. Since you don’t have the slightest idea as to how the AI labels these images, you personify the machine with human ethics and problems and say it’s racist when in reality it has incomplete information in some way that results in a misidentification and a simple mistake.', "> The problem is that it keeps happening.\n\nits going to keep happening, that's just life, how people deal with it is what's important, and they should deal with accident and intentional in different ways, not lump them together.", "You did when you commented in a public forum. If you like an echo you can speak to your self instead little one.\n\n\nDouble edit: and you spoke to me. So... Yeahhhh. Im simply taking permission from you. Its mine and you can't have it back.", "The outcome is racist(in the everyday usage of the word), one group of people is inaccurately categorized differently than another based purely on skin color. I'm not so sure racism needs to have an emotional component. Maybe it does - this is an interesting question.", 'Children learn how to hate others based on their experiences and the tools they have been given to handle those experiences. A child won’t form a racial bias out of thin air. If they are not exposed to the idea that another child’s race is the reason for that child’s behavior, for example—whether that be good behavior or bad behavior—there isn’t anything available for them to correlate the two things with one another. Racial prejudice isn’t something that is organic; the same is true about hate—both are caused by consistently conditioned externalities.', 'And this argument is also flawed in a way. "Hate" is a combination of many factors. It\'s not so much that the first person suddenly began hating, but more of they started feeling uncomfortable with something/someone, then dislike, then hate.\n\nHate, in essence, is a feeling, and therefore extremely complex. It exists in all beings. To a dog, it wouldn\'t eat that bitter-tasting thing. Why? Because it made it feel nauseated. It doesn\'t understand hate. It wasn\'t taught hate. But humans say the dog hates that food.', "A classifier is going to recognise patterns.\n\nRacism is more when those patterns are applied to the individual.\n\nIt's not racist to recognise that hip-hop is popular in black communities. It's racist to meet a black guy and automatically assume he likes hip hop.\n\nThe biggest problem with AI in this context isn't its classification, but the expectation that its classifications can meaningfully be applied to individuals.", 'The 1st person learned to hate due to random chance, and certain feedback structures enabled that trait to thrive.\n\nIf we somehow wiped out sexism today, why on Earth would we sit back and let it take over into its natural state? Maintaining a society takes work, and that means constantly educating each new generation not only what to think, but how and why.  Whether you like it or not, humans are machines displaying many of the same traits as artificial intelligence. If you want a given result, you have to feed them the proper input.', 'I 100% agree. \n\nI personally believe it’s natural to have a bias for people who are like you. This is pure, animalistic tribalism 101. \n\nYou have to actively work at not being racist. Challenge your preconceived notions about people who don’t look like you.\n\nUnfortunately, some people won’t do this, therefore racism will always exist in some people.\n\nWhat’s important is that we’re heading in the right direction where racism really isn’t socially okay anymore.', 'I would bet on Colonialism. The "first" came from groups traveling. For example those with advanced ship building could travel across oceans. It was easy to claim an us vs they. You could get a somewhat simplified version from Jared Diamond and his Guns, Germs and Steel. It\'s available in YouTube.\n\nIf we\'re already integrated from the get go, racism would be significantly less occurring.', 'There wasn\'t "a first person", in the sense of a living being with all the capacities we have, but descended from and surrounded by beings who didn\'t. \n\nThe process of speciation is LONG and isn\'t fully finished until interbreeding becomes impossible.', 'the first person to hate would have been hate of an idea of tribe... most likely a tribe in another area and most likely a tribe that looked/talked and dressed exactly like them.   \n\n\nHate is learned. It is a thing that is taught. This is why idiot, hateful parents raise idiot hateful children.', "Which part are you saying no to? I wasn't describing *artificial* intelligence.", 'It’s simpler than this. If you look at the specific video, the title includes “black man”. If you feed a model millions of videos on Facebook, your bound to come across racist comments like “monkey” or “gorilla”. This makes much more sense than an AI trying to classify a human —— I doubt it would classify a human as a gorilla with the preciseness of computer vision + the distinct features of humans. This is due to the AI being trained on comments and correlating that with the title/description', 'Or maybe training an AI is difficult, takes time, and involves learning from mistakes', 'They would have to go to much greater effort undoubtedly and sort by additional characteristics.', "But is this because racist people are tagging black people as 'primates' or because the algorithm simply is too crude to be able to tell the difference between two black coloured beings?  \n\nFor instance, if you check the individual nodes of a neural network trained to recognise handwritten digits, then you'll end up disappointed as each nodes is just comparing the input to a garbled mess of pixels. Because it's able to put a combination of garbled pixels in a high correlation to a number, it's able to classify the number. It doesn't actually recognise the attributes of a number the way we recognise it.  \n\nIf Facebook works the same way then I imagine an eural network that just compares a vast amount of layers of garbled pixels and eventually concludes that this combination of garbled pixels is statistically similar to a primate.  \n\nThis then uncovers the real problem with AI ethics, which is that the individual nodes of a neural network are utterly meaningless and useless to a human. These are called 'black box' neural networks, and they are incomprehensible which is a danger wen we start letting these machines decide which insurance claims get accepted, or which news items deserve to be posted to your newsfeed.", ' So Facebook is racist because Facebook is racist.', 'It’s not image classification though- it’s a video, with 24-30 images per second. The AI is not being trained on the video, but the comments and title/description. These are easy indicators to give recommendations. Unfortunately, racist comments often come with videos of black people, which is why the AI is recommending primate videos — because of the comments', 'Assumption. Just as AI has difficulty with blue berry muffins vs chihuahuas, it is more likely that the the algorithm saw the best match with primates in this case. If you think it has images in its data set of people of color  with racial tags of primates, you have to assess your own biased dataset.', 'Yeah, the rest was decent as a "it\'s kinda like this" description, but that final racism thing virtually never happens like that and misrepresents the actual problem we have in AI, which is biased datasets.  \n\n\nIf you need to talk about this, I recommend going with an explanation like what I did.\n\n\n\nSome extra info:\n\nThe truth is, most people in this field are straight white males (as am I), which can sometimes lead to a lack of perspective, so it\'s hard to notice that a dataset of humans often has a white bias and often even a male bias. Another possible mistake is, that if you want it to be able to detect minorities just as well as majorities, you need an equal size of training data, rather than just a ratio that\'s similar to the actual population ratio (and sometimes it\'s hard to get such data).  \n\n\nIn addtion, very large datasets are sometimes not labeled by hand, but automatically (or at least with the assistance of such models). If an issue like this goes undetected and Facebooks AI model would then be used to label a different larger dataset, then the black people might actually be mislabeled as primates in the dataset, making this an even bigger issue.', 'That makes sense to me. Diversity leads to less blindspots and fresh\nPoint of views. How is the a.I field homogenous past the racial part?', '100% agree.', "I would be more inclined to accept that if this was our first attempt at this technology but we've been attempting this for a while now and the exact same issue arises everytime. You'd think some more effort would be put into it before launch especially considering the media shitstorm it always brings. I'm not even going to pretend to be an expert it seems like people would be more careful after seeing people crash and burn before them", "Even black people wouldn't necessarily want to make their job about their race. If you got hired as a programmer, you wouldn't necessarily want to also be a diversity expert. \n\nAnd the OP's point is actually that, at this point, you don't need to be black to have some awareness that issues like that might happen. Especially if it's your job.", 'No. It called black people primates you baboon.', ">I can only imagine you are thinking the name calling thing is a common occurrence and that's how it's better that he gets banned this one time, but that's a big assumption.\n\nIn truth I was under that impression, but you're right that I was assuming things. If it's not something he does often, I retract what I said earlier about being happy he was banned.", 'Thank you. This gets it right.\n\n1.\tAI/ML models *can* adopt systemic racism and sexism, two examples that come to mind are [facial recognition models](https://sitn.hms.harvard.edu/flash/2020/racial-discrimination-in-face-recognition-technology/), primarily due to training data representation, and that time and [that time Amazon tried to use ML for hiring](https://www.aclu.org/blog/womens-rights/womens-rights-workplace/why-amazons-automated-hiring-tool-discriminated-against)\n2.\t Light reflection can make a difference but computers don’t process that kind of visual information like we do; it is so much less of an issue than proper training data for models.', "You're replying to an insightful reply with 'REEEcism'. I think you are the troll.", 'Yeah you do realize you\'re not the 0.0001% that gets to have any political autonomy in dictatorships, right?\n\nThe point of democracy is that every human is equal and gets an equal say.\n\nAnd frankly, you don\'t get nor deserve the right to oppress others. Because any government that isn\'t "majority run" is inherently oppressive.\n\n\nAll you\'re doing is quoting an authoritarian racist asshole who happened to be in charge during a war. There\'s nothing brilliant about that quote, it\'s just a rich dick bemoaning that he\'s not a totalitarian dictator himself.', '> it’s certainly less powerful.\n\nIt\'s less powerful to do it manually, that\'s why I think figuring out a way to generate name-able features in learnable hierarchies will lead to more decipherable models.\n\n> how do you determine what’s culturally acceptable\n\nDepends on the culture, or race/sex/hate speech laws, \n\n> Who is the arbiter of that\n\nThe free market. It\'s just a tool, you can use it how you want. I recommend starting with "mea culpa avoidance strategy" and go from there toward full transparency. \n\n> Most of what you’re describing is essentially image processing and classification from over a decade ago\n\nThat\'s why decipherable models is not a solved problem', 'So this issue is a lack of testing.  I don’t think a picture of a black person getting classified as a primate would have escaped my notice, if I bothered to look through the results.\n\n> To fit your example while not necessarily racist an example might be is do you treat a gyro as a sandwich or not is that something you would have thought about? \n\nI mean, maybe.  Probably actually, if I were intending to do robust testing (you thought about it after all).', "The person you're talking to is just too afraid to admit that they think there is a genetic distinction causing the lack of representation of black people in the field. \n\nEquality of opportunity should more or less lead to equality of outcomes, with some statistical anomalies here or there, unless there is a genetic disparity somewhere. We don't have equality of opportunity, no social scientist or economist would ever make such a ridiculous claim.\n\nNobody actually wants equality of outcome, they're just skeptical that we don't see it, because equality of outcome IS the natural result of equality of opportunity if everyone is truly equal. Sure, there could be a 5, 10, 20% difference here or there.\n\nPeople like the person you're talking to just implicitly smuggle in genetic inferiority into the conversation, often without even being aware of it themselves. It completely logically follows from their train of thought, think about it. This is what many of those types believe:\n\n1. We have equality of opportunity in the US between racial groups\n2. There are virtually no black people in AI and tech, they aren't just underrepresented, they're almost entirely unrepresented.\n3. We do not have equality of outcome.\n4. Therefore, the disparity of outcome MUST be from inherent differences, like genetics, because if there were environmental differences (culture, education, nutrition, etc.), then we would by definition NOT have equality of opportunity to begin with.\n\nPeople like this, sadly, just do not like black people very much and feel the need to rationalize and excuse their lack of equality of opportunity.", 'Ummm. Yes they do. This is why they don\'t use the word the "equality", the left uses the word "equity." Which is used to refer to equal outcomes. That is the most fundamental goal of most progressive policies.', '>The far left has never\n\nDo shut the fuck up because no one but a leftist is going to believe that shit and they only do it to do what you are doing which is trying to hide the truth,', ">level 4betternerfxinagain · 2hI'm saying this company is short a few black people and so they can't ship their product.\n\nGood grief the racism is sickening.\n\nFUBU never fit properly because they designed around and only hired black people, guess they should not have been allowed to ship their products. People like you would end up shutting down 99.9999% of all business around the world and make the population poor again because, mah diversity!\n\nHey did you know that Magnum condoms dont fit most men. Better shut that shit down because it isnt inclusive...", '"Can you run a boat without gas? **without the tires**? \n\nI\'m fairly certain boats manage without tires, yes. But even ignoring that, the analogy makes no sense. The tires are doing their part correctly, as is the steering wheel. Neither of these parts are \'underqualified\', they\'re both exactly right for the job.\n\nCan\'t ship the product without \'them\'? What exactly is \'them\' in this context?\n\nAnd let me return to the root of the problem with your suggestion. You propose to teach AI to not be racist, by hiring people based on skin colour and completely ignoring merit. Which is racist. Teach an AI to not be racist, by being racist. Have I made it clear enough? YOUR SUGGESTION IS RACIST', "a link with no credentials. where are they pulling these numbers from? we don't know. they can generate these numbers from thin air for all we know.", "Where did the information come from? All I'm saying is before y'all make assumptions (several folks have said I'm offended; this comment was the first time I've used that word), ask yourselves some questions. Why would anyone say what I said? (Besides because that person is dumb). I used to be like you when it came to sexism; then I assumed women weren't dumb, and realized there was a lot I could learn. You've assumed that you know more about AI than I, but what do you know about the history of technology in the context of race?", 'Blech..what a disgusting creature you are', 'They did a study which showed babies show preference for their own race nearly from birth. People are indeed born rascist.\n\nhttps://www.utoronto.ca/news/racial-bias-may-begin-babies-six-months-u-t-research-reveals\n\nHumans instinctly dislike something different to themselves.', "Ha actually experienced this with my parents dog.  Didn't even think about it, but he started barking at black people if we passed them on the street or in the park.  It wasn't until I had a friend over who's black, that we realised it was literally because he was black, no other reason.  The dog had never seen a black person before and was instinctively untrusting of them/nervous.  Once he'd been introduced to my mate and realised they're not to be feared and aren't any different, he was fine.  Exposure to things count's for a lot in early development.  I'm wondering if the same thing would happen if we ran into an Asian person (non live around my area).", 'Bad example, there are plenty of instances of dogs having dislike and aggression towards certain individuals.', ">It's racist to meet a black guy and automatically assume he likes hip hop.\n\nStereotypes do not have to be racist. Please don't think that they are.", '>It\'s racist to meet a black guy and automatically assume he likes hip hop.\n\nwow. the whole fight with racism in the West was about these kinds of marketing assumptions? \n\nI thought it was about theories of inferiority and incapability for some intellectual jobs that the racist "thinkers" of the West were developing. \n\ntil it was hip-hop!', "It's like a corrupted altruism gene.\n\nAltruism, for those like them.", "Except humans are not machines and humans are assholes. Just because you teach, doesn't mean they learn.\n\nMen are physically stronger than women and stasticly are more aggressive in business and negotiations. There will always be a power gap that the next generation will exploit.", "That's really not how machine learning works. There is no database of attributes like this. This information is encoded into the connections between layers of an artificial neural network.", 'It’s simpler than this. If you look at the specific video, the title includes “black man”. If you feed a model millions of videos on Facebook, your bound to come across racist comments like “monkey” or “gorilla”. This makes much more sense than an AI trying to classify a human —— I doubt it would classify a human as a gorilla with the preciseness of computer vision + the distinct features of humans. This is due to the AI being trained on comments and correlating that with the title/description', 'Oh for sure, I don’t think I wasn’t implying that. In fact, it’s precisely because it’s difficult and takes time that you should give more scrutiny  before release.', "Dude we've known about the ethical issues of biased data for machine learning for like a decade. Facebook has absolutely no excuse. S1E4 of Better off Ted has to do with security systems only recognizing white faces, and that came out in 2009. This concept of racist machine learning had existed in the mainstream for 11 years.", 'I mean that’s not that unreasonable to expect a company on the scale of Facebook to do. But even further besides that, they should have manually looked at enough cases to realize that this was going to be an issue and not released it until they’ve put in the necessary effort to fix obvious issues like this', 'It might be a case as well. The problem with AI, despite how crude it is compared to what we think AI should be, is that it is really hard to figure out exactly why it makes classification that it does.\n\nLike when Amazon AI started discriminating against women.\n\nhttps://www.reuters.com/article/us-amazon-com-jobs-automation-insight-idUSKCN1MK08G', 'I think the lack of perspective isn’t about the color of someone’s skin, it’s mostly that engineers seem to be cut from the same cloth. Black/white/Asian, when I talk to an software engineer, or any kind of engineer  for that matter I know it. \n\nFresh perspective will go further than data, It’ll contribute to problem solving tenfold. We have built these systems in a very specific way, for specific purposes of supporting ongoing work. Diversity (thinking away from the color of someone’s skin) will lend itself to breakthroughs. \n\nFurthermore these giant companies are looking to refine their A.I. Perhaps they should come up with a method of quality control. Create a job to clean this data so that the A.I can make better judgement calls. \n\nThank you both for explaining the problem. It’s a fascinating subject. A microcosm of what is going on within the human condition as we shift over to a digital sphere.', 'Disabilities, gender, sexual identity, learning and intellectual handicaps….\n\nIt’s the same reason the federal government places such emphasis on diversity in its hiring: if you work for a government department that handles disability rights, then are you going to hire solely people in wheelchairs? No, because disabilities aren’t just wheelchairs, and you’re designing services for a wide variety of people so it’s no longer about whether or not the person *can do the job*. It’s about whether they reflect the intended audience, too. \n\nThe challenge becomes people learning about diversity, what it is and what it means, and implementing that. \n\nI work in learning and development. A client of ours originally put out a request for a solution but didn’t think to consider accessibility in their design (compatibility with screen readers, confirmation to WCAG standards etc). In our proposal we pointed out that this would be necessary by their own regulations AND because of their audience which is why our estimate was higher than the competition.\n\nThey went with the lower bid, and had to rebuild the solution with us specifically because they forgot about their diverse audience, a large chunk of whom was not served by the first case. Developing AI is experiencing the same pitfalls at the moment.', "They don't have to intend to seed an AI with bad info - the AI just has to be trained on public data. There are racist social media groups, including on Facebook, that are filled with racist hashtags and image descriptions of exactly this type.", 'I\'m not in development directly but my job does entail some code/logic review. The hours are brutal and the grind is intense enough that while my job requires knowledge of current events, I end up pausing all news/don\'t read anything until a few weeks later or when someone sends it to me... And I\'m not even at the likes of facebook and Google\n\nSo think of the teams working on this. Are they even aware of this problem happening at other companies? Do they have time to be aware? And if they were, do they have deadlines they could ask to push to investigate this in their own AI models? To do this they will need to tell manager "hey John, I heard about FB\'s AI being racist. Could I spend time trying to determine if our models are racist" and John would need to say "Sure Billy, even though the VP I report to is expecting this to be rolled out in two months and we\'re super behind already, I\'ll take you off your tasks so you could investigate and an issue that may or may not be there". And THEN if John says yes and Billy does find an issue that will extend the release a few more months - high probability the company will just agree to release and patch layer. \n\nSadly, this is the reality of how most development works around the world. Very few workers have the luxury or the bandwidth to do things how they want. If it\'s not an issue coming directly from my manager, high probability I won\'t care at all. At the end of the day, I have to finish my tasks and projects so I could clock out and actually eat and sleep.', 'I’m sorry, are you saying it’s not the job of the programmer to detect the flaws in their programs but it’s for the «\xa0diversity experts\xa0» whatever that means for them to do ? \n\nAlso, how is saying that an algorithm say that black people are gorillas «\xa0make their job about their race\xa0» ? \n\nYou have a LOT of racists whistleblowers in your comment man. A lot.', "It didn't call white people primates though did it? Why are whites homo sapiens but black people have to sit at the primates table with the gorilla's and bonobo's?\n\nThe A.I. was designed and trained. It made it's decision based on those factors. Essentially, it's a kid doing what it has been taught. And responsible for this kid are the parents, who didn't bother to teach it about the appearance differences in homo sapiens.", "Yes that's true, this is ultimately a fault of Facebook's users and they are the only explicitly racist element here. Facebook does ultimately have a responsibility to ensure that the data they use is good though. Not checking for these kind of things might be considered negligent in the face of racially insensitive modelling results, it's not like they don't have the money to throw at the issue.", 'Wouldn’t named and understandable features just be a huge detriment to model performance? Once you get passed the initial layers of a modern CNN the dimensionality of the representations get quite high. Turning those representations into human parsable formats sounds both complicated and performance hindering.\n\nThe way I would expect this sort of cultural requirement to play out is with businesses continuing to black box their models and exposing less of the work they are doing to avoid public scrutiny.', "That's right as long as people look through the data although there's a lot of data and so you have to figure out what you need to look at you need to know the right question to ask to be able to find the answer.\n\nThey're known unknowns and unknown unknowns and it only takes one person to make it a known unknown but that person has to think about it in the first place and that's where the value of diversity comes in because people with diverse backgrounds are coming up problems from slightly different directions which give a better perspective on the entire thing", 'Good breakdown on the subject. I was with you implicitly and you deconstructed it well.', 'Eloquently put. Unfortunately we\'re talking about a Reddit \'gamer\' who speaks of "ANTIFA Scum", is apparently concerned about "communism" policies, and thinks that mask mandates are "draconian". So yeah, probably not someone one would have a productive convo on race / equality with.', '> they think there is a genetic distinction causing the lack of representation of black people in the field.\n\nThat’s a stretch.', "You're confusing far left with radical liberals.", "Just so you know at places like FAANG, by the time you hit the final round interviews 95% of people can do the job. So now the panel gets to kick people out based off of what they'd like to, and historically all white panels will hire all white people and reject others for not being culture fits or other trivial reasons.\n\nHow do I know this? I have been on hiring boards - I have gone through thousands of resumes and brought people to first round interviews. As a minority, many more minorities were willing to talk to the company I represented and I was able to find the ones that were equal in skill, but well above equal in impact to the workplace. It's not that minorities are any less skilled, it's just that the all white hiring board favors the person they went to church with over the lesser known candidate.", "Says the thing with your post history. I'm a high level engineer working with this tech and others, while you're a troll with no value here. \n\nIf you cared at all about the pain, suffering and divisions in the world you would do what I'm doing. Focusing groups on solving actual problems so people can stop getting and feeling hurt. For instance, this ai thread? Its a technical issue not a cultural one. Ms had it. Ibm had it. Aws has it. It can come down to a lot of things, like math, training, sensors and sure if one single person made one, culture.  It was nice of FB to say sorry. They didn't have too. At all. Think about that.\n\n\nBut hey, keep ...what is it you do? Ah, Wasting Time. \n\nOr join me and help someone for a change.", 'That’s not an accurate synopsis of the study authors’ conclusions.\n\n>“These findings thus point to the possibility that racial bias may arise out of our lack of exposure to other-race individuals in infancy,” Lee said.\n\nNot only is lack of exposure to people of different races an externality, but there’s a world of difference between recognition of unfamiliar physical features, and racial *prejudice* in infants. You’ll be hard pressed to convince anyone that babies are afraid of other-race individuals because of a relatively complex ethos about the other-race(s) as a whole. That requires a degree of cognition they don’t yet possess.', "That's what racism is to you? So like, if I don't date outside my race, am I racist?", 'Not all black people like hip hop. I personally know many who don’t and find it exhausting having to explain himself to people who find that fascinating. \n\nNot all tall people play basketball, it’s probably really annoying having people ask over and over.', "Yes, it's racist to assume a Jewish person is miserly, and that a black person is a criminal or a basketballer, or a white person is a school shooter, or a Mexican person is a drug dealer.\n\nYes those things are racist. It's racist to take statistical trends or stereotypes and apply them to the individual. Infact that might be the single defining feature of racism.", '> call a statistically accurate stereotype racism.\n\nThat\'s what most things called "racism" are.', "Statistically accurate is bullshit. You're trying to use false logic to justify simplified thinking.", 'True but more often than not they are', 'They are racist... because they aren’t true to the individual. \n\nEven something harmless like assuming your black neighbor likes watermelon and fried chicken is racist. Because even if those are staples of African American casual cuisine, it doesn’t particularly apply to that individual. He might hate watermelon and it’s probably annoying having to deal with people who assume otherwise.', 'It\'s just familial selection on a much broader scale. From a "spread those genes most like yours" perspective it makes perfect evolutionary sense, but of course from a thoughtful and humane one it does not.', 'I know it\'s easy to focus on the bad and the backwards--I know I all too often do--but education really can make a massive difference. Look at how far we\'ve come in animal welfare and women\'s equality and combating racism in the past century. We\'re still ages away from perfect, but we also don\'t have separate drinking fountains for different races anymore, or elephants being electrocuted to death for being "bad," or women being denied entry to the Boston Marathon for being "too frail."\n\nSo yes, there will always be jerks who act like primitives, but for the most part with education people can make incredible advancements. Look at how far we\'ve come in the last century alone, and the technological revolution is just getting started! We may be able to make something good of ourselves yet.', "What makes you say we're not machines?", "Agreed. The fact that reddit boys are getting triggered and downvoting you pretty much proves that it's right.", 'Knowing an issue doesn’t make it easy to correct or ensure 0 failures in the future', 'Please learn a new word. Not everything is racism.', "What other cases in creating an AI does one not factor in these kind of short comings in accurately collecting data?\n\nIts the equivalent of your friend not turning on the flash when taking pics of a black friend at 4am inside of a nightclub even though you've told them this 50+ times. Everyone knows this an issue. The question is why isn't this normally factored in at this point", "Well with neural nets it's unclear how exactly issues like this happen and how to fix them. No one actually codes these algorithms, they kinda write themselves, and when they make mistakes there isn't a simple solution of going into the code and re-writing some lines of it, you have to retrain the entire algorithm. It's also not like these sorts of problems are predictable either, again it's a mystery how these lines of code actually work to identify things, and you only know about mistakes when they occur. Sometimes they are random and nonsensical, like when an AI mistakes a listing for bear repellent for a listing for ball bearings. The solution is to find 1000 examples of bear repellent and 1000 examples of ball bearings and wait till the AI can accurately figure out the difference. When the AI made this mistake, it wasn't out of pernicious intent or a bias in the data, computers make mistakes sometimes (especially when they use random unknown processes to identify things) and reading into it some sort of deeper bias is silly. The computers aren't racist.", "Especially when it seems to always happen. I don't think this is the first time that machine learning has done something like this and still people don't think to double check.", 'Exactly, google had this issue a few years ago. This whole incident could have been avoided by Facebook', "Right, right now AI modellers focus on two things. Accuracy and Robustness. Accuracy is how well the model 'fits' to the data and robustness is how well the model is able to cope with variation with the data. A banana that's slightly too curvey should still be classified as a banana.  \n\nBut what's missing here is understandability. These models offer us nothing under the hood. It's nonsensical. And that doesn't need to be the case. It's just requires a ton of work to get an AI model to do the same tasks it can do in a obfuscated way, only this time in a way where we can trace its reasoning.", "I think blaming the individual developers would be misguided. It tends to be the people up top giving the orders who cause these kinds of issues. It's like blaming a builder for the mistakes of the architect. If the people up top were more concerned about quality and listening to their Devs than hitting an arbitrary deadline, things like this wouldn't happen as often", '> I’m sorry, are you saying it’s not the job of the programmer to detect the flaws in their programs but it’s for the « diversity experts » whatever that means for them to do ? \n\nThe whole point is that I\'m saying that it\'s the job of the programmer. Not the "black programmer". It\'s not an issue where the programmer needs to take a stand or have some secret knowledge that only a diversity expert would have. \n\n> Also, how is saying that an algorithm say that black people are gorillas « make their job about their race » ?\n\n> You have a LOT of racists whistleblowers in your comment man. A lot.\n\nThis is exactly the problem I was talking about. People are way too eager to see "racists whistleblowers". That might have been the reason no one brought it up. Because if you did, someone could reply, "Are you saying black people look like primates?"', "Right, and you are absolutely certain that AI didn't mistake some photo of white people for something else than human in the process of processing millions of photos. I bet you were present in FB office and saw everything first hand", "That's the unsolved problem part.", 'Yeah but the notion that something that wasn’t worked on by a diverse team is bound to have sensitivity issues is absurd.  If you’re just asking the question “will someone else potentially find this insensitive”, you’re not likely to miss anything just because you didn’t have the right person asking it.', 'Did you even read my comment? I never suggested that it was a good thing.', "That is racist. Jobs should be given out mostly on merit and not at all based on ethnicity. On this we agree...\n\nExcept your suggestion to prevent racism is doing exactly this! Don't you see the hypocrisy here? Or is it ok when the racism goes the other way a.k.a. 'affirmative action'?", 'Awards from who? Since when does awards validate anything? Awards mean nothing. My source is the the facts. There are none.', "Reminds me of a joke. What's the difference between someone who self-refers as a high level engineer and a useless pile of shit engineer who gets paid to sit on their ass all day ordering pizza from their computer? Nothing. I'll join you though on your oh-so-noble journey, just put the olives and mushrooms on your half.", 'Fair.\n\nThe other study shows the preference starts around 3 months. \n\nIt is hard to see how this avoidable if you are raised in single race household though. Particularly as that would also extend to the immediate family. \n\nhttps://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2566511/\n\nBut the point is humans instinctively dislike difference. As you suggested it requires active intervention.', 'How would you define it?', "That depends. Why don't you date outside of your race? Is it coincidence or choice?", 'Why would you refuse to date outside your race?', "People have to understand that you can use statistics to make assumptions helpful to survival AND make choices not to be racist at the same time. If I'm vacationing in Mexico and hear about a violent local gang that wears red striped shirts, then see a Mexican man in that area wearing a red striped shirt, it's sane and understandable for me to not approach them. But you can also logically deduce that the Mexican man in a red striped shirt shopping for groceries in your northeastern hometown or applying for a job at your catering company is just a normal human being and should be treated as such.", 'You have to be very, very, *very* careful with using "statistically accurate" stereotypes to assess someone. Making guesses about someone\'s musical tastes or preferred sports isn\'t world ending, sure. But other stereotypes are much less benign. It\'s "statistically accurate" that most murders in the US are committed by black men. Should people then assume every black man they bump into at the grocery store, the park, the work force is a murder risk, even when the vast majority of black men are not? You have to be very careful about the assumptions you make. Black men being all too often categorized as "high risk" in the eyes of others contributes to them having less opportunities and being more likely to live in poverty, with the associated higher crime rates, thus creating a self fulfilling prophecy.', 'Your brain makes and applies a thousand stereotypes every minute without you even realizing it. Say you woke up in a strange city, without your phone, and needed help finding your way home. Who would you most likely ask for help? A six year old girl? A man wearing dirty stained clothes, sleeping on the sidewalk? A woman wearing a police uniform? A couple walking with a dog and a baby stroller? A man wearing a suit and tie? Someone wearing a biker jacket holding a sign that says "FREEDOM AIN\'T FREE"? Do any of these people seem more approachable or more dangerous to you? How do you know?\n\nThe six year old girl might have a gun for all you know. The homeless looking guy might be the CEO of Uber and have a fleet of cars waiting to take you home. The biker dude might actually be a cop, and the police woman might be a cold blooded serial killer and just stole the uniform.\n\nYou don\'t know, so you make assumptions based on your mental model.\n\nThat\'s a stereotype.', ">They are racist... because they aren’t true to the individual.\n\nNo.. this is not what true racism entails - and please don't try to redefine what racism really is. If I were to assume that all black people were smart, would you categorize that as racist too? Wiki states:\n\n>Racism is the scientifically false belief that groups of humans possess different behavioral traits corresponding to physical appearance **and can be divided based on the superiority of one race over another.**\n\nThat last part is important. Why? Because people and societies operate on stereotypes and generalizations and have done so since the birth of our cognition. While these can sometimes be inherently bad and wrong, they serve a function for our communication and collective perception of the world nonetheless.", 'He might hate those indeed, but in absence of any other information the high probability is that he actually does like \'em, so I, as a reasoning creature, would use that info for striking up a conversation w my neighbour.\n\nWill I find out that he doesn\'t really like watermelon and fried chicken? Great! Even more material for our conversations! "ah, so what do you like them, dear neighbour?"', "Ok, but throwing our hands up in defeat doesn't improve the product or progress science and technology.", '"it\'s hard" isn\'t an excuse a decade down the line.', "No. We won't change the English language to keep draptos comfortable.", 'Probably no black people hired on the AI team. Or they fired the one black lady who was, like Google did.', "> When the AI made this mistake, it wasn't out of pernicious intent or a bias in the data, computers make mistakes sometimes (especially when they use random unknown processes to identify things) and reading into it some sort of deeper bias is silly. The computers aren't racist.\n\nAbsolutely - and to be clear no one here including myself is saying the algorithm itself is racist (if that’s what you thought I said, then reread my post). I’m saying not having the institutional structure in place to check enough test cases on black people and prevent code that performs poorly on classifying black people from being placed into production is the racist part. It’s an organizational issue that Facebook needs to fix", 'Strongly agree, thanks to that we end up with amazing things like this one:\n\nhttps://www.bbc.com/news/technology-42554735\n\nIt made me wonder if there is a way of hacking us the same way.', 'Ah yes, famous argument post me-too «\xa0but I can’t talk to woman anymore because they will think I’m a predator\xa0». \n\nNo. If you say : «\xa0Our algorithm says that black people looks like primates\xa0» no one accuses you of racism. Not in the reality. Maybe in your désillusion of reality, but not in our world.', 'I do think there are interesting developments to be made in the semantics of machine learning, and that sort of stuff is well beyond my understanding. I don’t think enforcing or expecting some arbitrary standard of moral and cultural acceptability will improve models for the betterment of everyone. We should be aiming for as much transparency as possible in how these models are developed, the data they are based on, and how they are trained. We could use this information to better understand how and why we create models with biased outputs. Setting up cultural barriers to model acceptability runs counter to this in my view.', "hmmm I think you're missing the point. I'm not saying that minorities are any less skilled, I'm saying where there are people with equal skill that traditionally employers went with the white employee. \n\nThe reason why is because people gravitate to what they know, who they know, and what is comfortable. A group of white people are more likely to hire white people because of this reason.", 'What really sucks is being a brown Asian. You don\'t get the bonus points of being white.  You don\'t get the oppression points of being a woman/black/Hispanic.  \nYou don\'t get the "model minority" of being east Asian. You just get lumped in as "Indian people" and have to hope that you are better than everyone else because you\'re fucked otherwise.  I wish I could use affirmative action lol.', ">Show detailed source information?\n\n>Register for free\n\nIt ostensibly has a source, but it's behind registration, unfortunately.", "I... I... Ate the whole pizza. I was hungry after covering for you when you called in ...again.. But, I'll spot the next office order when you show up. Might even bring donuts. All the important engineers do, dont ya know.", "The preference might start at 3 months but clearly isn't set in stone at that point. I think it's pretty clear that people who grow up in cities; where they are exposed to more different races and cultures as they grow up are less likely to be racist than people who grow up in all white towns in rural areas. There isn't a study that is broad reaching enough to back this up directly, that I know of, but it seems pretty obvious to me. There aren't KKK groups that spawn from groups of kids that grew up in cities.", 'Humanely are instinctively afraid of things they don’t understand, and things they have no experience that are different by nature won’t be understood.  We learn prejudice through this.  We are not born racist, or prejudiced towards anything, that’s learned behaviour.  But when everyone around us is like that, we become like them.  This is all child psychology.', "It could just be attraction.  As a white guy there are limited number of black ladies I find attractive.  (There are some though)  \n\nThere are plenty of black ladies I've worked with, learned from, and respected over the years though. \n\n I dont think that makes me racist any more than not being attracted to certain white women due to looks?", 'There’s also a massive cultural difference there which cannot be ignored. Asian parents go hard on education.', 'Re-read your own definition, “and can be” means the following is not a requisite, but suggestion of a common application for racism. \n\nAnd yes, it would still be racist. I know a lot of pretty dumb East Asians who constantly get remarks about how they don’t fit the stereotype of East Asians being smart. You can see it on their face when some dude in the group specifically asks them to calculate the tip split. The “oh, you’re not good at math?” thing is fucking annoying dude, people just ignore it but they’ve heard it 10000x in their lives. \n\nI also heavily disagree with your sentiment about racial stereotypes being “necessary for society”. That’s fucking ridiculous dude. What practical use case do dumb racial stereotypes play at all in society? There’s a difference between making preliminary judgements on an individual’s appearance vs their skin color. Non inherent features like how someone dresses, tattoos, piercings, hairstyle, and behavior are things you can reasonably use to form initial impressions. Race is not. Thinking someone might be dangerous because he’s black is racist. Thinking someone might be dangerous because he has prison tats on his face and jeans halfway down his thigh is not racist, even if he’s black, so long as his skin color had nothing to do with your analysis. \n\nSo yeah, thinking your black neighbor likes watermelon is some racist shit and he probably wouldn’t take too kindly to you showing up with a watermelon and a bucket of KFC. Grow up dude, minorities fucking hate stereotypes, good or bad. It’s really annoying and trust me we’ve all heard every single fucking stereotype in the book 100 times over. It’s not funny after the 1000th time.', 'No thats literally prejudice, preconceived notion without direct experience\n\xa0*prae-\xa0+\xa0judicium* advanced judgement, and a basis of racism.\xa0', 'I agree, but mistakes happen and things take time.', 'You absolutely have no idea of ML in any way and are talking so out of your ass that its embarassing.\nMachines dont know what racism is, but they learn and apply patterns onto stuff.\nYou can never fully predict what the AI is gonna do and especially in this case he probably associated the skin color in combination with the body form to a primate, which from a programming perspective is valid because humans in general dont look too different from apes', "Well we don't know whether or not Facebook did in fact run the trials that you're talking about to teach the algorithm the difference between black people and primates. It's quite likely that they did and that this case was the 0.01% mistake. With these systems, it's rare that you'll get 100% accuracy, and considering the fact that this algorithm has been in place for many years and doesn't seem to make this mistake frequently if it has made this mistake before at all should suggest that it's a relatively isolated incident. Then again, I'm not Facebook, I don't know exactly what data they used to train these algorithms, and not even Facebook knows what information the algorithm looks at to make these decisions. Computers are strange.", "That's indeed exactly the jumbled mess of pixels I'm referring to. That's what it could look like if you open one node of a large neural network. The node holds an image similar to that and it merely verifies whether it similar to the input or not.", 'Do you just sit around being angry over this shit all the time?', '> No. If you say : « Our algorithm says that black people looks like primates » no one accuses you of racism. Not in the reality.\n\nExcept you don\'t know it if you don\'t check. And if you say, "we need to check if our algorithm sees black people as primates" - then it can be misinterpreted. \n\nHeck, *this whole controversy* shows that some people are seeing racism even in a mistake *made by an algorithm.* It *is* controversial.', "You're inventing a hypothetical situation in which your view is correct. The *actual* problem is the lack of black applicants that are sufficiently trained in the field. It's not malicious hiring processes that have created this problem, it's a lack of interest or education in the field amongst black people.", "Just delete Facebook and use Twitter. There's no reason to beat a dead horse just because every school and library is doing it around the world. Just because the majority of people are doing something doesn't make it right or even the best way to do things.", "Duuuuuude...that was an XXL deepdish with 5 TOPPINGS. The deal was you'd pay with your card and ill give you cash for 3 slices and ill cover the tip for having it delivered and-and-and you just...you just ate........really? All of it? How rude. How fucking rude.", 'Much of what you say is true. I just dislike the statement that we are not born rascist.\n\nWe are born with extreme prejudice and learn to apply it almost immediately. Fighting rascism is something we actively have to fight.', 'Because that was an infinitly better formed argument and so needed a more considered reply. The above did not.\n\nWhy do you care? What would me not replying suggest to you?', 'This leads to a dangerous sounding argument out of context along the lines of "not all -isms are bad" which is easily avoided by just not using such a strict definition of the -ism in the first place', 'Bollocks, there\'s work being done on adversarial networks to understand what\'s going on inside other networks. You can test your network before going live. From a software development perspective they majorly dropped the ball on testing, what happened is they didn\'t think their shit through. The fact that people are so quick to throw their hands in the air and say "it\'s too hard" and "we should be able to just release software without doing any due diligence" is insane to me. \n\nOf fucking course machines don\'t know what racism is. Humans don\'t have an intuitive understanding of it either. All humans are doing is learning and applying patterns. The difference is we have the fucking brainpower to consider consequences, try new approaches, and improve those processes. We do not have to use the same braindead approaches that have been failing for ten years now.', 'It\'s not "quite likely" they did at all. From what I know about fb and Google from people who worked there, it would not be taken into account and then the one person who brought it up in a meeting would be ignored or dismissed. The fact you give these billionaire tech companies the benefit of the doubt is worrisome. They do know what goes into the algorithm, they just don\'t want to dig that deep so they say they don\'t for plausible deniability.', 'It seems like you think algorithms can’t be racists. That’s weird.', 'Well I don\'t think we are born with "prejudice" exactly, we aren\'t born with anything. It\'s just that the things and people that we are exposed to most often at the beginning of life we become comfortable with; because we haven\'t known anything else yet. As we get older we become less and less open to new experiences and ideas and become more and more likely to stay within our comfort zone. Again this is all just conjecture based on what I\'ve seen.', 'So many words but no point.\nThe AI did work perfectly, it did a good job.\nIt just failed on one specific video, ONE and that is something that no matter how much you train it, you can never expect it 100% to not make that mistake.\n\nYou really have no clue about ML, so its best you dont comment more.\nGuess what? Google Translate is being programmed for so many years and had so many datas to learn from, yet we still see so many mistakes when using it.\nIs Google now just bad at doing their job or is training the AI harder than one may think?', "Algorithms don't have feelings, so they can't hate people of specific races. And they aren't people, so they can't feel superior to people of other races. Sure, they can be based on racist inputs - but it's not like anyone honestly believes that Facebook intentionally feeds racist data into their algorithm.", 'We are pre disposed to dislike difference. It is pretty remarkable that is evident in a 3 month old given they have barely developed any cognitive ability.\n\nI definitely think the statement we are not born rascist is wholly inaccurate and glosses over our disposition.', 'Well, the did reply to it so we can drop this at least', "I'm much more interested in what Facebook is doing to fix the problems, than in what you have to say defending this tripe. Why is it the company themselves can admit there was a mistake but you can't?", 'There is definitely an evolutionary reason that humans are weary of unfamiliarity. Humans are shaped by our social interaction, no doubt, but people often gloss over the innate evolutionary traits that form the basis of this social growth.', "It's really not. The simplest creatures can tell the difference between a known safety and an unknown (which is ofc a potential danger). But what you're saying is closer to metathesiophobia than xenophobia", 'It *was* a mistake, but not one that could easily be prevented or was even malicious, its something that happens every now and then.\n\nOnly thing they can do is improve the AI, but even then you can never be safe from these mistakes', "A genius? Nah, just a normal person. Everyone's who's not an idiot is a genius compared to an idiot though, right?", 'Hold up. I deleted the comment. Let me try to remember what I wrote. Just a sec.', "[No need for that](https://removeddit.com/r/Futurology/comments/pi0252/comment/hbn8e6q/?context=3&sort=confidence)\n\n>So you need me to explain to you how I'm stupid, which somehow makes you a genius. Oh, I see. Ok Brainiac. Thanks for explaining your delusion out for me. That'll make it easier to conversate with you. Maybe you should lead with that next time.", 'Right and so, ok and you said "A genius? Nah, just a normal person. Everyone\'s who\'s not an idiot is a genius compared to an idiot though, right?"  \n\n\nTo which I put forth, "Look do you want to keep asking stupid questions or do you want to get back to the main argument and stop with the fallacies and rabbit trails."', "That ball's on your court. You're the one constantly derailing the conversation.", 'Dave. This conversation can serve no purpose anymore. Goodbye.', '“This is not a change we want to make, but unfortunately Apple’s updates to iOS14 have forced us to be slightly less scummy than we’d like to be.”', 'I swear that man looks like Data from Star Trek with better makeup.', 'It worries me that Facebook is, “encouraged by conversations and efforts already taking place in the industry - including within the World Wide Web Consortium (W3C) and the recently announced Partnership for Responsible Addressable Media (PRAM).”\n\nWhat exemptions or special arrangements are they seeking?', 'But how will Facebook allow a nefarious group to micro target potential 17 year old vigilantes if Apple blocks all their personal data?', 'Every time news like this is announced I think of the BP guys from South Park "weeee\'re sorryyyy"', "Yes, there is a monster in our presence and it's name is Facebook. I deleted my account years ago.", 'Society has become shittier since this guy stole the idea for FB. Fuck you Zuckerberg.', "I don't trust Apple or Facebook with any important data, but I trust Apple a lot more that's for fuckin sure.", 'Honestly, knowing that Apple has the power to hurt Facebook may be enough for me to switch from my Android when I need a new phone.', ">If you are not paying for it, *you*'*re not the customer*; *you're the product* being sold.\n\nFacebook apologized to it's customers.", "I find myself liking Apple. Never thought I'd see the day.", 'Someone please cancel Facebook', 'Apple = you are the customer.\n \nFacebook = you are the product.\n \nIs that simple really.', "I've been an android fan from the start, but I'm heavily considering swapping to iOS purely for how ethical they are with regards to customer privacy. I have nothing to hide, but the pure disrespect and disregard of customers' privacy from Google and Facebook really loses brownie points with me.", "I'm sorry Zuck was born.", 'Apple actually rolling out the reasons to buy apple products. Damn!', "This announcement from Facebook against iOS has made me consider changing from Android for the first time in years. It's the best advertising that Apple could've had!", 'I can’t wait for iOS 14', 'I read the title and had to double check to see if i har misread it', ">Apologies to users\n\nSorry we're stealing your data 👉👈", "Facebook can take a flying f**k. Reason number 89 why I don't use/touch facebook.", 'Shhhhhhh... listen, it’s the world tini tini tiniest violin.', 'What a disgusting shitbag Zuckerberg is.', "If you're still on facebook... wut", 'I got about 5 paragraphs in before I closed the browser. What the fuck kind of journalist writes like this? The Register has really gone downhill!', 'Just delete your fb account, you won’t miss it at all. I promise.', 'Is this really a fight they want to pick with Apple?', '>\twill hurt many of our developers and publishers at an already difficult time for businesses… Many of these are small businesses that depend on ads to support their livelihood.\n\nIf your business relies on invading peoples privacy, then maybe your business shouldn’t exist.', 'delete mark zuckerberg', 'The dealings with Epic and Facebook make Apple look increasingly morally sound.', '> Facebook apologizes\n\nOh fuck you, Zucker. Buy yourself a better human-like face.', 'Time to switch back to iPhone.', 'Zuckerberg is as trustworthy as Trump.', 'Updates.  My 6 year old iPad gets updates. Android stops at TWO years.', "We're sorry", 'Hahaha I hope this decimates FB', '"hey guys, I\'m sorry"\n\nContinues to do the same shit anyways', "With the way things are going this year, it's hard to tell what's real and what's a parody.", 'Facebook and Mark Zuckerberg: actually go fuck yourself with a rusty piece of barbed wire', 'Lmao get fucked Zuck', 'Facebook is the prime example of the phrase “If it’s free, you’re the product.”', "Deleting Facebook and Instagram was one of the best things I've done...", 'Facebooks agressive marketing is the whole cause of the effect', 'ELI5: What’s going on here?', '###Hey, douchebag. Go charge your robot brain and go into Sleep Mode for a while. 👍🏻', "I've been looking for a new phone to replace my s6 edge. This has pushed me towards Apple when usually i dislike apple. Good marketing apple.", 'Imagine still using FB in the last decade lol', 'This is the worst written headline of all time.', 'Cry me a river you oligarch piece of human scum.', "Well, I am pretty close to the end of this phone's life 🤔\n\nTbh privacy is a bigger issue for me than planned obsolescence", 'Oh boo hoo fuck you. Maybe don’t run a business based on shady-as-fuck borderline Chinese level of invasiveness scum tactics', 'I deleted Facebook not because of this specifically but for all of it. Facebook has proven time and time again it was never about bringing people together they constantly resist changes that make that happen \nThe goal of Facebook is to collect as much data about users as possible in order to manipulate their decisions. It’s the perfect business model to glean billions of dollars from advertisers, politicians and authoritarian governments. Quit Facebook', 'Can we just be done with Facebook already? \nJesus , this guy cannot stay out of the media, it’s nothing but drama. \nJust go already, it hardly seems worth it at all.', 'Delete Facebook', 'Haha, I really fucking hate this cunt.', 'Imagine still using fb in 2020', 'This might make me switch to Apple.', 'How do companies get so delusional? They so often miss the mark of what we want and how we feel by such a huge margin.', 'Wait did he just apologize to people because Apple is trying to protect them??? I’m so confused', 'Well Apple caught got my attention now. Looks over to Samsung "so what are you going to do to protect my privacy"', 'The thought that Facebook is trying to vilify Apple because of Apple’s protection of users data is really sad. Tim Cook ain’t gonna lose sleep over Zuck’s whinnin.', 'thank you apple!', "I can't find a violin small enough to play for Facebook lol", 'The same company which allowed the incumbent extreme right wing hindutva government in India to  publish hate at their will with no repricussion due to advertising money. They have destroyed the social fabric of my nation. Burn in hell facebook.', 'On a more serious note tho, do I need to manually enable these privacy settings once I’m on iOS 14 or will they be applied by default?', 'Satire... lol!!', 'I think I detected a hint of sarcasm in that video.  Anyone else or is it just me?!  /s', "I know lizardmen are a crazy stupid conspiracy...but just fucking look at Zuck. That dude's ancient ancestor had to of procreated with a giant lizard or something a billion years ago somehow.", 'To be truly sorry means feeling regret or sorrow over a situation you had control over and making amends. I see neither of these things happening.', 'But how will Zuckdog pay for his meats without selling user data? Pour one out for the Zuckdog.', 'I would be completely ok selling MY data, cause it’s MINE god dammit, if I got the damn money!', 'So Facebook is trying to be the victim.', 'Acts like these, or rather words, make me actually buy an iPhone.', "Well I had no idea that they were selling my tracking info.  WTF?  If I check in a place or post pics of it, that's on me, but if I just browse FB they're selling the data of where I'm at, what time, etc?  WTF?", 'Zuckerpunched', 'As an android user I can\'t even uninstall facebook....I can only "disable" it because it comes with the phone for some damn reason. Fuck Zuckerberg, that fucking toad.', 'Why does not FB protect its customers from anti vaccine propaganda/news, fake news, Russian interference?', 'go to hell zuckerberg', 'Seems Zucks got caught on a Captcha.', "God I'm so excited that I do not have a Facebook profile.", 'Man I hate this pile of shit', 'Lmao, Zuckerberg is such a huge twat', 'BY SHARING THIS MESSAGE I HEREBY STATE THAT FACEBOOK MAY NOT COLLECT MY DATA OR SHARE IT WITH OTHER COMPANIES.\n\nSHARE IF YOU AGREE', 'I have never been so excited in my life to update my iPhone', "Plenty of dumb mother fuckers still have Facebook and I don't feel bad for any of them. Leave that shit site and maybe it will die. Users are how they make money, off you, directly.", 'Suckerburg should have done something else in college', "I'm an old fart, never had Facebook, never will.  Maybe it's time this asshole got taken down a notch or two anyway.", 'I wonder if Epic forces Apple to build in sideloading, would Facebook then be able to start tracking iPhones again?', '> New iOS update will rob people of personalized ads, wails antisocial giant\n\nOnly thing better would be:\n\n\nNew iOS update will rob people of ~~personalized~~ ads, wails antisocial giant', 'Just deleted facebook 20 minutes ago, I already feel liberated.', 'Imagine using facebook in 2020.\n\nLol.', "I worked as a Software Engineer in one of the tools that make user tracking easier. Here are a few points from someone that knows how the sausage is made:\n\n\\- This move will inherently make anonymous (logged out) tracking harder since it no longer gives you the phone ID, so you don't get free tracking. If you log into the app, the app developer will still be able to identify you using your user id, or your email.\n\n\\- Since we were primarily web-facing and we didn't have a single \\`ID\\` to match users, our business made a reconciliation algorithm that allows us to attempt to match users back using personal features + browser features. This is called \\`browser fingerprinting\\` and is already used a lot in the wild. This will most likely be used in phones as well. It works \\*very\\* well.\n\n\\- I doubt this is as big of a deal to Facebook as you think it is. They most likely have this kind of algorithm. This will only make it more of a nuisance and require more computing power to match users to their \\`Identity\\`. Remember, the more permissions you allow (GPS, backgrounding, etc), the more likely they'll match you back later. Heck, you could even save an \\`id\\` to a file and until the user removes it, you can track them (required file permissions).\n\n\\- Don't think this is a big win for privacy. Apple apps have a ton of default accepted permissions to track you. Apple has recently been pushing their own ad network, so it's very possible that they want to push developers and businesses to use their ads instead of third parties (Facebook, Google). They own the platform, so they can do whatever they want.", "This is some of the best news in 2020 I've ever heard.", 'Fuck fakebook', 'Even though I hate most of apples products.l,\nApple has gained alot of respect', 'Anyone else install Linux for the first time in 2020?', 'I rather Apples security than facebook tracking everything I do and see.  Using Firefox Facebook fence you really do see how many sites Facebook tracks users.', "I'm not gonna pretend apple is the good guy, they are just gonna sell the data themselves.", 'Well thats it then... im buying an iphone. All i needed was Zuckerbergs blessing, thanks xuck.', 'I have quit FB completely. Done.', "Hell yeah. I've always hated apple with a vengeance, but now I love them for saying a big fuck you to Facebook.", 'Jesus, look at his face he looks just like Data from TNG.', 'zuckerbitch', "Don't like Apple, nor facebook but gotta go with apple on this one. Ol Zucks just butthurt Bezos got more money and a better looking wife.", 'Well, this is a huge marketing win for Apple. Makes me want to upgrade my Samsung for an apple', 'Am I the only one who almost had a stroke trying to read the title?', 'Actually makes me want to move to iOS for the first time in my life', 'Oh, yeah.. Apple is all about my privacy. That\'s why it has to have access to my contacts list before I can use "dictation". Makes sense.', "Guy doesn't even look human anymore", "$2 Trillion company is 'protecting its users' from another trillion dollar company.\n\nAll Apple are doing is ensuring they are keeping people in their walled garden, and only they know everything about their user. And killing smaller companies than them in the process.\n\nRemember - Apple have had privacy issues recently too... \n\nI dislike Facebook with a passion, but there will be A LOT of fall out due to Apple's bullying.", 'Apple has always been about the end user. Facebook has always been about the enrichment of Zuckerberg. I mean it didn’t take fucking rocket scientist to see this coming? In era when privacy and security are at premium who else is going to step up? Microsoft? Hahaha!', '“Updates to certain laws and investigations have made it impossible for us to rape your kids” the Catholic Church wrote to its members. “We didn’t want it this way but our hands were forced”.', 'No need to apologize. Simply STOP collecting and selling your users every drop of information including location.', "You know ever since they wouldn't let you send a simple message on FB without installing their messenger, they were on some shady bullshit", 'Basically he\'s apologizing to companies that advertise on Facebook for Apple making Facebook ads less lucrative. Which is super weird. "We\'re sorry it doesn\'t make sense for you to give us your money anymore." That\'d be like if Game Stop lost the ability to buy used games for pennies and complained about consumer\'s right to get ripped off.', '" Facebook apologizes to users " meaning, sorry to those who i sell data to, im unable to track people with Iphones without their knowledge and sell you their data anymore cause of dumb apple.', 'Serious question: is there any good non default sub for tech news where it\'s not all just political propaganda / outrage clickbait written by """"journalists"""" who have zero insight into technology?', '/r/nottheonion', 'pissing facebook off ? maybe apple can have a dollar of mine.', 'The only good thing about Apple is how good they are when it comes to security', 'Got rid of my account. You can too!!!', 'As an Android user forever, this makes me almost certain to get an iphone next.', 'Wait hold the fuck on. \n\n\nAll these years I\'ve been on Samsung because I like the pretty features and you can\'t use an S-Pen with a Google Pixel.\n\nBut you\'re telling me Apple actually DOES give a shit about our privacy and can use a similar stylus?\n\nWas I wrong for the past 12 years? Did I choose the wrong platform because one was "more open" than the other?', 'Thank you Apple. Keep looking out for me!', "What's Android look like compared to this?", 'Fuck you, Facebook', 'Mark Fuckerberg can eat a dick.', 'I really liked using iPhone because of the customer privacy protection, there is a lot of restriction of what info apps/developers can get from your device, unlike Android which is far less protective.', '"You can\'t do that to our users. Only we can do that to our users ."\n-Apple, probably', 'Fuck the zuk', "They keep this up, I'm going to end up with a f'n iPhone. Ugh.", 'Sucker-berg is a douchebag.', 'All these people say that Zuck is a douchebag, yet most may not have Facebook, but many Instagram and WhatsApp. \n\nDelete it all. Reddit til I die.', 'What a garbage ass company lol. Sad', 'If you’re not paying for the product, you are the product.', 'Fuckerberg, just STFU already.', 'Facebook is garbage, they banned me so many times for speaking my mind', 'Unpopular opinion: privacy is overblown. personalization is great to have.', 'If anyone in this thread doesn’t think Apple is not partially doing this to ensure they will own the ads market for their platform you’re wrong - they have failed with native ad platforms in the past but, if they can decimate any competition they’ll finally be able to be the only\none to sell advertisers iOS users eyeballs', 'This guy must have to buy the most expensive private security ever assembled. Everyone wants him deleted. Plus, that fucking face. LOL.', 'Do you think that apple is the hero here? Just want all the data for itself. Apple is developing a new search engine, all the data will be collected by Apple and sell it to the higher bidder. No wins for privacy and more money for apple.', "This may sound naive but since we're talking about Apple and privacy, \n\nCan you help me understand why a lot of celebrity users using icloud have been succesfully hacked over the years? Is it because of the user's low security passwords, the apple security itself, or it could happen to android as well but was not strategically targeted enough? Please illuminate me.", 'They’re apologizing to their real customers, the businesses that bank on abusing your privacy.', 'Facebook is dying anyway but he has bought WhatsApp and Instagram. That is more serious issue', 'Facebook has been apologizing more than staging and testing their new features recently', "This is the first time in my life that I've wanted an Apple iPhone\n\nWell played", 'Yet people are more afraid of a “microchip” in a vaccine than their use of facebook and sharing personal data 🤷🏻\u200d♀️', 'I really hate apple’s anti-consumer and anti-right to repair stances, but I have to give them credit. They seem to be trying to protect privacy.', 'Who wrote this article? A very biased Facebook publisher lol just saying', 'Apple makes products for people (their customers). Facebook makes an environment for people (their products) so they can sell their information to corporations (their customers).', 'Hopefully Android does something similar.', 'And because of this, I will switch to an iPhone as soon as I can.', 'This is why I will always buy iPhone > any other phone', 'I welcome iOS14 with loving open arms!', 'This makes me want to go out and buy Apple products.', 'Facebook is trash. Delete it from your life. We only have limited time to exist so we shouldn’t spend it reading falsehoods while realizing how dumb the people you grew up with turned out to be. Seriously though who fucking cares what these people think about certain things? Who needs it?', 'Not to be cynical, but this is all smoke and mirrors. Apple has responsibility to the board to make $$$, right now their playing this card but don’t think for a moment your not the product.', "You don't need a new iPhone or iOS to avoid Facebook's privacy issues. Just delete Facebook. Problem solved.", 'Meanwhile Apple will be not be treating Apple Search Ads the same way and still be collecting and targeting users the way Facebook and every other major network does.', "[https://www.theverge.com/interface/2020/8/27/21402744/apple-idfa-facebook-fight-ads-advertising](https://www.theverge.com/interface/2020/8/27/21402744/apple-idfa-facebook-fight-ads-advertising)\n\n>Apple isn’t a big player in online advertising, but it does have its own small business that personalizes ads shown in the App Store and on Apple News based on where users go and what users do in Apple’s apps. The company is applying separate rules for its own ad-personalization; to opt out, users must find an option in the iPhone’s settings.  \n>  \n>Apple says it’s applying one standard everywhere. The IDFA restrictions apply only for developers who want to move data between companies; all developers can get access to the data generated from within their own apps. But this neatly sets aside the fact that Apple doesn’t have to move data between companies to run its ad business — because it owns the device, the operating system, the App Store, the data, and the advertising network.\n\nApple is just trying to make more money one way or the other. They want their 30%. Couldn't imagine if windows or android were this locked down.", 'Apple is going to be gaining a new customer.', 'On one hand, I really appreciate this move by apple.\n\nBut on the other hand, they really left me pissed off when they forced Synology to remove their app DS Get because it allows users to download torrents.\n\nI paid for my iPad and my Synology, but thanks to apple draconian censorship, I cant use them as I want.\n\nSo Android for me until they change that bullshit.', "Why anyone has a Facebook at this point in time is beyond me.\n\nIt's such a garbage platform and does nothing good for society", 'I hate Facebook so much.', "I really hope everyone that reads this article picks up on the sarcasm. (Semi related topic, apparently Zuckerberg was partially responsible for the backlash against TikTok - remove competition and shift focus). Also, all the Cambridge Analytica insanity was supposedly due to one psychologist writing a FB app (not a professional programmer)  and he successfully harvested millions of users data. That pretty much means China and Russia have all of the data on Facebook. I've never heard anyone say that before but it has to be true.", 'If you still use face book, you are a dumb fuck.', 'This makes me want to get an iPhone again. Fuck you Zuck!', "Apple's shit is too damn expensive for me. They don't grant you access to internal files on your phone, you can't do stuff like playing OpenMW on Iphone, you can't do jack shit  with an Iphone compared to any Android based device.\n\nJailbreaking is fucking hard and definitely not worth it just for root access considering that Apple always put out many updates while I had an Ipad, so jailbreaking did no good.\n\nYour data is collected and sold by numerous other services and sellers, so just because Apple doesn't sell your data, doesn't mean that other things you're involved in online won't.", "Totally unrelated question. I'm generally not a fan of Apple products at all (prefer Windows/Linux + Android), but Apple's stance on user privacy is really pushing me in their direction. From a strictly security/privacy point of view, are Apple products really much better than their competition?", "As much as I want to applaud Apple but I know for a fact that their decision wasn't made because they have YOU, the end users' interest in mind.  It's a calculation that money is the motive and only objective.\n\nI would not be surprised if any phone company does this but have a hardware backdoor for Weibo instead of FB and the FBI.", 'Facebook will be used to hunt liberals and minorities under the names of QAnon and Trump.\n\nLiberals will be labeled pedophiles for supporting LGBTQ and everyone else will be labeled ANTIFA for not liking the president.\n\nThe stage is set for greatest lesson in the importance of privacy and it will take Facebook going full Nazi to teach us just how important privacy really is.\n\nIf you have done nothing wrong, you have nothing to fear, until they change the definition of wrong.\n\nThen everyone has everything to fear.', 'Laughing at everyone thinking Apple is being the good guy.  They did this in their ongoing effort to have exclusive control and use of your data.\n\nEDIT:TIL Apple lovers are the 2nd most gullible group on the planet.', 'So would this be a good case for going to iOS vs Android for example?  I am currently on an iPhone, but I switch between Samsung and iPhone a lot lol. I guess Android forces you to acknowledge their shit behavior, but since it\'s not OS level restricted, FB can say "HAHA WELL DONT USE APP THEN", but cant with the iPhone?', 'BUT TIKTOK THOUGH- THEY ARE THE ONES STEALING YOUR DATA', 'I moved from the Android scene to the Apple scene in 2018.  I don’t think I could be happier with the move.\n\nI don’t have to constantly fiddle with settings or get used to quirky back button behavior.\n\nThe iPhone just works, and works well for all things smartphone.\n\nI’ll switch back to android, well, never...', 'So is Apple good now? How does Reddit feel about Apple?', 'Search qanon on Instagram and tell me this is serious....\n\n“These terrorists met on Facebook”, should be a commercial', "I assume that if you don't give the app the permissions, you don't get to access the app? Seems fair.", 'Facebook needs to get out of here with their bullshit. They’re trying to get in on the Unreal/Microsoft trend but somehow manage to come out looking like a bigger asshole than any other company in the process.', 'Go pay off your fines lizzo.', 'Went extremely out of my way to make sure my retirement accounts aren’t invested in FB lol. Fuck them.', 'Who is this cook guy named Tim?', 'Did I read it wrong? Who is the real monster here??', 'I have question: since FB owns Instagram, do they do the same thing on Instagram?', 'This makes me want to buy an iphone for the first time in a long time', "And so the corporate wars begin.  Can't wait for the documentary videogame, Cyberpunk 2077 to come out and tell me how the story ends.", '* That’s right, Facebook actually gave some of the money it made from running those ads through its system to the business that paid for those ads. Which doesn’t make any sense but shut up, Facebook is the good guy, ok? And Apple is wrong to be doing this.\n\nLol fuck yeah.\n\nI use an apple phone; I enjoy the ecosystem, I despise the annual phone upgrade model, and overall apple has done *plenty* to hamper innovation in the last 20 years.\n\nBut this is excellent, barring apple preparing to launch their own mechanism to harvest user data.', 'Zuckerburg is just a sad, angry little troll who will be forgotten once we all move on from Facebook in 20 years.', 'Good lord facebook is a monster', "users AND businesses\n\nI don't know why this grinds my gears so much but it does.", 'Man his gaslighting abilities are astounding.', 'Ya right. Give away all your customer’s data like suckerberg.', 'is this privacy available in any way shape or form for an android phone?', 'As much as I dislike using apple os, this makes me want to buy one! Not just for Facebook, but for all apps that take data from my phone.', "Hey I've seen that over before...", 'This is why my Facebook account is filled with bs information. I love it when I get adds for curling and other random things I’ve liked in order to confuse facebook’s algorithm', "Thank you Apple!!!\nWe all owe you for this. Keep it up and you will have more customers than you know what to do with. \nIt's good seeing Apple push back on these monsters. Fuck them and their data collection", 'If only we had elected officials that spent time on personal privacy', 'Love the sarcasm in this article', 'Now... perhaps they will offer to PAY users a % of the profits they make if users are offered to opt in.', "Apple don't want to protect your privacy, they're just tired of letting other companies make money with their infrastructure and user base.", "Apple just don't like other to use there toys.", 'Tim Apple did good thing.', 'Quick....somebody call a waaaaambulance.', 'For those of you who were unaware, you can simply not use Facebook. It is in fact that easy! I do it all the time.', 'iPhone user: 10 years+\n\nFacebook Deleted: 3 years+ \n\nSeeing This: Priceless', 'I actually love personalized ads for new web startups. I have found a lot of fun brands that way.\n\nI just hate when I can feel then manipulating me politically with them.', '[Sorry] (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WTsDqIcpHUc)', "I just came here to laugh. I feel sorry for Facebook. He is right about business model but people don't want it anymore. I am ready to switch to Apple to be honest.", 'Facebook is malware and should be deleted immediately!??!', "If we know something from the real world, if apple is stoping Facebook from collecting data it's because apple wants a cut from the pie", '>Amazingly, despite Facebook pointing out to Apple that it is tearing  away people’s right to have their privacy invaded in order to receive  ads for products they might want, Cupertino continues to push ahead  anyway.\n\nlmao so much sass in this article', 'Apple doesn’t give a flying fuck about your privacy, it’s all PR.', 'the register defending apple? how much were they paid lmao', "Cool I'll take that apology for being uninstallable bloatware on 3/4 phones.\n\nWhenever.", 'Now we just wait for the next Android update to roll out and Facebook tanks', "Like OneRepublic would sing: *it's too late to apologize*", "It's affecting every industry that makes money on an iPhone.\n\nAnd to be clear, Apple isn't doing this out of concern for your privacy.  They're doing it because they see a huge opportunity to cash in on something that they've freely given away for a long time.\n\nFacebook can still get fucked though.", 'https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=15HTd4Um1m4', 'Right now the only thing keeping me from buying their new iPhone is to see if it will have a fingerprint reader. Everything else from what I’ve been hearing just makes me think more and more that going w/Apple is the best choice.', 'Zuckerberg is an asshat.', 'You’re apologizing for the wrong thing dude..', 'The sarcasm in this article makes it difficult to understand what is actually happening', "God, I can't stand Zuck. the Social Network had me fooled for a while but these last few years his true colors have really shown up. he's a power-hungry money-grubber just like all CEOs.", 'This joke is not even funny anymore,I cant even count the amount of times they apologised about a "mistake" but they keep doing it.', 'Eff off Zubkerburg.', 'Well, there goes the drops shipping fun. r/shopify is going to be devastated.', "Is the only difference here that in iOS14 there won't be personalised ads from Facebook?", 'Bullshit data collector', 'What a terrible article. I’m drowning in the sarcasm it’s so thick', 'I’m not one to usually say something like this, but he looks so much more like a lizard than he used to.', 'I mean cant they just make is so that unless you press accept the app will not work on the phone forcing everyone to do so similar to how terms and conditions are presented that if you dont accept you dont install stuff and such?', 'Oh the irony, they removed most access from their api’s due to privacy and then cry when it happens to them', 'ahh I\'m about to be downvoted to hell... but\n\nI don\'t get the point of the article, or sharing it. The article is just full of sarcasm and satire content. I tried to learn more on what more sins did Facebook commit, but it didn\'t really tell me facts, just opinions of "Facebook bad". I guess that\'s what gets people going  nowadays... so\n\n"Facebook bad"', 'What kind of utter garbage is this article. This is the most blatant anti-consumer bull that I’ve ever seen.', 'Android! Please follow suit!', 'You want my private information regarding my only activities?? Then pay me for it! I will happily part with the information in that case.', 'Apple legit cares about user privacy to the point that many of their employees view the business models of Google, Facebook, etc as unethical.  \n\n\nThey care about employee privacy almost as much, going to great lengths to respect it.  \n\n\nIts a rare workplace culture in the modern era.', 'Does this sub have a single other interest besides hating facebook?', "Remember when Facebook overinflated it's views and metrics to advertisers in order to inflate ad costs!? Oh, wait—THEY'VE NEVER STOPPED!", "Facebook fix your fking memorialized processes!!!! My friends sister is dead and you still are not processing her death certificate! her account is now used to promote sexual products by some guy who stole her phone in the hospital (i know how this sounds made up but it's true). No reply for the past 4 months!! Asshole reptilian!", 'I\'ve heard a lot of people saying Facebook is "collecting data for targeted advertising". As if they know. As if there were oversight. \n\nIf FaceBook were only using the user profile and just what they click on that interests them, they wouldn\'t be having a problem.\n\nIf however, they collect a lot more data than that because they are offloading it to influencers where YOU are the product -- well, this puts a dent in that.', 'lmao, how the fuck is an apology going to make up for anything?', 'Ok Apple, keep up with the privacy and keep it coming with the affordable phones and you might get my business for the first time since that brick sized Ipod.', 'Maybe don\'t make a part of your business dependent on another company\'s service, which could change or not be available without your control? And even if you do, maybe bitching and moaning about it is not what a proper business in a competing market should be doing. Whatever happened to "Move fast and break things"?', 'OooooOoOOoo this fits in very nicely with my figure plans to quit Facebook.', 'Weird that Apple may have a direct hand in "killing" Facebook in favor of protecting it\'s users, my opinion of them has slightly improved.', 'This is satire yeah?', 'I can sense your sarcasm.', 'That article is really salty. Sounds like someone at Facebook crying over the phone telling the reporter how they can’t make billions off people’s privacy.', 'And the posts never end on Facebook about the deep state wanting to track everything you do....', 'pro tip: If you have iphone and really have to use FB, but absolutely hated the ads in app. Ditch the app and just use the web version on Safari. No ads so far.', 'Fuck fb and fuck zuckertwit. DUMP that app and block them all.', "Will Apple allow you to record phone calls to protect yourself from the he-said-she-said from billion dollar companies?  No, because it's illegal in some places.  Not where I live, but in some, so f me I guess for not being able to do something completely legal.", 'Talk is cheap Suckerberg now do something about it!!', 'can someone please explain what’s so bad about fb. i know they’re universally hated just curious as to why?', "We're **s o r r y**", "So, I guess we're all going to pay for content and access since advertising pays for a lot of stuff we are used to being free... Or will Google's new privacy sandbox save the day? We'll see...", 'What did Apple actually change in the update that made FB so angry?\n\nEdit: Never mind I was just to lazy to click the link.', 'This has gotta be fake.', 'I get sick of seeing this creeps face!', 'Why doesn’t he sell his own personal data and that of his wife, see how he likes it', 'Well how the hell else is Facebook going to listen to my private conversations and then try to sell me shit?', 'Suddenly I want an iPhone.', 'Apple kill this worm eating your Apple^TM', 'Anything that hurts Zuckerberg is a good thing.', 'Fuck the zuck', "No wonder Zuck gets along with Trump so well. It's not THEIR fault they're so shitty.", 'Fuck you Fuckerberg!', '“Oh god, sorry for gaining your privacy. We can’t spy on you anymore like we did before, hope you jave a better life without us looking after you” \nYou shitty company don’t make it look like it’s normal for broking people privacy. You’re making something like spying and treating us as data ok.', 'This almost makes me want to switch to an iPhone. Almost', 'As someone who never used iPhones this is good advertising to me', 'Talk about the lesser of two evils', 'I’ve tried so hard to get some family members off of it. They don’t care about their privacy. It’s fucking strange but it kinda fits right into this twilight zone world.', 'Time to sell my FB stocks lol', "Since the t-mobile G1, I have only used Android. \n\nDoes Android do nothing to protect privacy?  I've been looking at pros and cons of switching to iOS all day.  The latest news does not help me decide on staying with Android.", 'even though I am glad this change is being forced on Facebook I have to say I can not stand this article. Its full of assumptions, contextual bias, and  is entirely idiomatic. Bad Kierren McCarthy write better articles.', 'r/nottheOnion', 'Can he just die from covid already...', 'Again this clickbait', 'How does the title have two different kinds of apostrophe', 'Not an apple fan but they just won some brownie points from me.', 'Does this mean that I can download the Facebook app and not worry that Facebook is going to take everything possible?', 'How much of this article is satire?  It has a very satirical tone, but did a variation of this announcement actually happen?', 'why is there such a taboo to put the word "and" in a headline', 'Is it just me or is Zuckerberg looking increasingly less human in this photo?', "I prefer targeted ads. If there has to be advertising, it's nice when it's relevant to my interests.", "I know y'all don't like Facebook or Google when it comes to privacy or ads. But so many small app developers use their service to show ads on their app and make a living from it. \n\nAs an Android developer this doesn't affect me that much. But 50% decrease is a lot. If there'll be no in app ads placement in the future then so many developers will start charging money for every apps with little or basic features. Kind of like old days. Just saying...", 'Both Apple and Facebook wants our data. \nI think for the future. These things are a pretty big deal for the tech industry to make their products more personalized for their users.', 'When your internal robot software malfunctions and you start becoming self aware.', 'one of the best articles ive ever read', 'my compliments to the author of the article ; the tongue-in-cheek was enjoyable\n\n"tongue-in-chief" what a truly weird phrase that is when you think about it.', "Give me a cut of the money you make on my data and I'm happy to let them have it", 'Apology accepted. Thanks. I’ll go buy that iPhone now', 'Oh man..I’m  so sorry Zuck! Excuse sir, where is the nearest Apple store?!', 'Man, that is hilariously sarcastic. Well done!', "I'm about as anti apple as they come. They're generally a scummy company. But they've been looking good the last couple weeks. Probably because their latest altercations were with epic and Facebook which just happen to be shittier than Apple lol", 'Lol this is the first time in years ive considered getting an iphone. \n\nStill probably wont because my 150$ phone does everything i need it to', 'None of your business bot.', '"Facebook has apologized to its users and advertisers for being forced to respect people’s privacy in an upcoming update to Apple’s mobile operating system – and promised it will do its best to invade their privacy on other platforms."\n\n...Is this a parody article or just insanely opinionated? This is not journalism.', 'Go to hell Apple', 'This title confused me. I may just be illiterate though. I read it as Facebook apologizes to user(pause) businesses for apples controls efforts to protect its customers privacy.', 'I moved from an iPhone 11 Pro Max to Samsung galaxy S20 Ultra. Regretting it on so many levels.', 'Is there a sub for satirical tech news like /r/NotTheOnion?', 'Dump Facebook', 'Can someone please advise what change exactly had been done that created so much flutter? 🗣', '[oh no, what will they do?!](http://imgur.com/Nlc21aO)', 'Thank you Apple for looking out for me. The zuck only looks after himself', "I think it's really important to point out that Facebook will ultimately not lose much money here. However the companies that rely on ad platforms to sell their shit will.", '"monstrous" efforts?\n\nha...haha... somebody had a really long wanking session writing that one.', 'Facebook apologizes for [insert something shitty here]\n\nSeems to be a pretty frequent headline these days.', 'It really is “hard to imagine how Tim Cook sleeps at night knowing that he is purposely ruining people’s lives by not allowing Facebook to sell people’s personal data”.', 'I have heard that even if you quit Facebook, they create a “ghost” profile, for lack of a better word, that stands in for you. So it helps them somehow advertise to other people who are similar in terms of tastes and interests. I have also heard they do this for people who aren’t even on Facebook but are mentioned in family photos and posts and whatnot.', "Where is this apology? I haven't seen it anywhere", "Meanwhile, \n\n&nbsp;\n\nSamsung'sefforts to protect its customers' privacy: \\*crickets*", '🤖Zuckerbot. Is. Sorry. 🤖', 'Wait what?', "Hasn't android done this for many years? How is this different?", 'Sorry guys we can’t shape / spy on you please go android while we sue apple.', 'No Zuckatwat, I don\'t want your shit on my phone. Your"business" needs to die.', 'Still looks like a robot', 'Lol I am gonna update to iOS 14 asap', 'This is from the Onion, right?', 'Can someone explain what the change apple did in iOS 14 ?', 'I’ve been debating which phone to get my parents while I head out to my college appointment. Well Apple just won that', "Lol\n\nAudience network is less than 0.2% of FB's revenue. Based on my estimations of how much of FB spend I've run in the past is served on audience network vs other placements.", 'I’m currently in the beta right now, and I love it, for 2 reasons.\n\nIt tells us when apps read our keyboard (reddit, tiktok, CoD Mobile)\n\nIt also shows when your camera or microphone is in use, and people have shown YouTube using the mic while using the app. I’d love to see Apple do more', 'Awww. Diddums.', "Please don't tell me that I will have to start liking Apple now...", 'Good! They should pay us anyways to use our information', "Whilst it's easy to celebrate a company such as Facebook being blocked from harvesting user information, let's not kid ourselves here: it's not as if Apple isn't harvesting our data for their own gain and will continue to do so.\n\nAll that's happening here is that they're refusing to let Facebook harvest quite as much as they were doing before, whilst under their roof.\n\nCustomers personal data is big business, and Apple are making a killing on it. The difference is as that they're the ones controlling who can leverage it, and not Facebook.", 'Damn, McCarthy is *killing it* this week', 'Doors this always read like an Onion article?', 'Facebook is a plague on humanity.', 'The damage has already been done.', 'Fuck Marky and the Crapbook, just close your account and forget about this loser', "So. Everyone talks about how bad companies are for taking your info and selling it. But I've never understood what's bad about it. What are the people buying it able to do with it? All I've ever heard is advertising companies buy it and use it to target ads but that seems like a good thing? Why should I care?", 'I’m glad apple is helping us, mark zuckerburg is a piece of shit. If it was up to him he will give up all of our information and share our location with anyone he pleases. Fuck zuckerburg and Facebook', 'Apple convince me to stay with them.\nNext step stop using Google search engine .', 'Can someone please ELI5?', 'Get bent Facebook', "Sorry apple users we can't spread the privacy cancer...so ironic.", 'Faceless lizard-man acts in his own interests. *gasp*', 'Look into those eyes. You will get lost in a world full of crickets, lots of tree to climb, and so much more that lizards love.', 'Fuck the zuck! Anything that effects him personally makes me giggle.\n\nedit: to someone more knowledgeable than me about how this works, they are only able to do this thru fb and fb owned apps, right?', "Screw mark Zuckerberg and Facebook. They're the reason things are so screwed up.", 'Can I ask where Samsung and my S10 stand on this? Will this same energy follow suit for me and my gang?', "I have a Macbook Pro and an iPhone SE, and I don't often have a need for a tablet, so I bought a Fire HD. This update in privacy from Apple will probably lead me to buy an iPad in the near future and ditch the Fire HD.\n\nOn another note, if you're using a browser to access Facebook, I highly recommend F.B. Purity. It gives you a lot of control of your Facebook experience, including blocking all ads.", 'I ditched apple over a decade ago, but after seeing this move, I may give them my money.', 'What did they do?', 'If you\'re looking for the source material of this article it\'s in the hyperlink of the word "bemoans"', "Everybody should start thinking about closing their Facebook accounts. This company has already brought us numerous problems, and Zuckerberg's greed is only increasing. I haven't had a Facebook account for almost 2 years and, honestly, I don't miss it.", '“these updates have a far-reaching impact on the developer ecosystem” I miss the days when tech was an industry constantly having to be on the lookout for new innovation and vast changes in direction. Guess Facebook just wants to be a digital wal-mart now', 'I’ve had an iPhone 6s for *years*, and I’m right at that “need to buy a new phone to last me for the next x years” — and I was considering a Samsung or Google device. Nope. This story kind of cemented the decision to continue with Apple.', 'You know what irritating. I spent years without Robocalls and telemarketer call on my cell phone. In the word of Mad Eye Moody I spent “ Constant vigilance!!!” trying to keep my number off-line. Past couple of days I have gotten eight calls.\n\nThe only thing that has changed is I got a new ISP. I had to give number as part of signing up for tech to call and hook up my service. Thanks for selling my phone number ISP. Assholes.', 'r/nottheonion', 'I don’t miss faceplace a bit', 'r/nottheonion', 'May be the best news so far in 2020', 'I’ll get my Facebook back and surrender my whole identity and all of my data WHEN AND ONLY WHEN Mark Zuckerberg reveals he’s a cyborg from another planet.', 'Apple stonks go up?', "The article mentions personalized Ads on 'Audience Network'. This is the least used of the FB Ads placement options. As a FB advertiser, I am not perturbed.\n\nAll in all though, as an advertiser (not as an individual), I have come to appreciate FB Ads platform and their data-stealing ways. The better their algos are, the more accessible & cost effective advertising becomes to small and medium businesses. A lot of start ups depend on FB as an affordable promotional platform, and not just start ups but also traditional and local businesses.\n\nNon-personalized Ads are basically what I grew up with, the same ads, paid for by mega corporations, (on TV back then) are served up for everyone, on repeat. Since it's not personalized, it will either be an Ad for a product or service that most people use, something mainstream and mass marketable or it will be a 'lowest common denominator' type of ad. Stuff that does not improve your user experience online.\n\nIs that what you want?\n\nSeriously though, we are in uncharted territory, we have the tech giants, with their overreaching data collection but also very useful products and services. We have the fact that most users are happy to part with their data to use this or that must-have app. And we have governments (not a young persons game) who simply don't know what to do and how to react to developments.\n\nI'd consider myself a privacy minded individual in my personal life and have a whole armada of ad blocking tech, but wouldn't want to see things go to the other extreme of killing off the goose that lays the golden eggs (the tech companies and big data).\n\nJust some thoughts after reading this article.", "Don't promote bullshit..", "I think most of the people complaining about FB violating their private data also want to have access to social networks, play mobile games and use other free apps that are only free because the publishers make money through targeted advertising. You can't have it for free but not have some sort of value exchange in the process. Yes, ads are irritating, but wouldnt it be worse and more irritating if the ads were not targeted and you were asked more often to pay for the mobile content you consume? Most of the digital economy has been built from the advent of advertising, I'm not gonna sit here and say its all above board or that data hasn't been inappropriately used in the past (yes Cambridge analytica I'm looking at you) for which FB should be held accountable and regulated to a higher standard, but I don't see Apple taking the Idfa out of commission as anything other than another tech giant trying to fuck over another tech giant and gouge app developers who they already take 30% of their revenues from in app purchases and who will no longer be able to monetise or advertise their games effectively.", 'Wow thanks bud. Rat-faced piece of garbage', 'In this photo. Zuckerbergs eyes look photoshopped to his own face', 'Lol I’m banned every other month for insulting and abusing rapists and. Fascists. Fuck him', 'Delete Facebook.', 'Damn you, Apple!', 'go cry in the corner Zucker-berg', "Zuck can't handle FBs corrupt business model is at risk. Love to see it", 'Boo fucking hoo... get fucked zuck', 'We are talking as if Apple is the good guy here. Apple does not want ANYONE else to monitize the customer data. Only it can and it does.\n\nWe blame amazon for creating amazon basics on popular products and killing 3rd party. Apple does the same. Popular apps because part of iOS and app gets kicked out as it duplicates os', "[We're sorry](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=15HTd4Um1m4) (BP)", 'Protect? More like have a monopoly control over 😂', 'Fuck that punk', 'This will mark the first time I update iOS immediately.', 'This is what I have to say to SuckMyBurger:\n\n\n01001001 01110011 00100000 01111001 01101111 01110101 01110010 00100000 01100100 01101001 01100011 01101011 00100000 01110011 01101111 00100000 01110100 01101001 01101110 01111001 00100000 01110100 01101000 01100001 01110100 00100000 01111001 01101111 01110101 11100010 10000000 10011001 01110010 01100101 00100000 01110000 01101001 01110011 01110011 01101001 01101110 01100111 00100000 01101111 01101110 00100000 01111001 01101111 01110101 01110010 00100000 01100010 01100001 01101100 01101100 01110011 00100000 01100101 01110110 01100101 01110010 01111001 00100000 01110100 01101001 01101101 01100101 00100000 01111001 01101111 01110101 00100000 01110100 01100001 01101011 01100101 00100000 01100001 00100000 01101100 01100101 01100001 01101011 00111111 \n\nLet me know', 'I literally can’t stand looking at this dude. No real person looks like this. What the hell is going on?', 'Lol! Fuck you Zuck.', 'Boycott Facebook.', 'God this guy looks like a reptile.', "I can't tell if this is satire", "Tbh I never even wanted tailored ads. Still don't. Get fucked Zuck", 'Shouldn’t this be on r/nottheonion ?', 'People still use Facebook?', 'So Apple has its own advertising and data collection they just want to squeeze out Facebook. Everybody on Facebook is selling their mlm or their band still after 20 yrs. They don’t want to get squeezed out. now everybody has to go to Apple and pay high prices as well as have to pay to be on separate platforms.', 'Hmm...I never got a call from anyone', 'Man all of these news articles about web companies concerned about Apple’s new privacy updates are giving Apple some of the best advertising they could ever ask for, and it doesn’t even cost them anything.', 'Hey Zuck, how about you pay me for my data', 'This robot needs to get better skin. Shits looking like it needs grease.', 'I just find it sketchy as fuck. When you try to activate Siri (by using ‘hey siri’) while on the Facebook app, it doesn’t work.', "Tl, Dr;  so here is the thing.  Companies require funding to pay their employees, rent and buy buildings and equipment and fund operations.  In addition they are expected to generate profit which can be shared with investors.  You can generate the funds to do this one of two ways.  Charge for your product or give it away and monetize the data that is generated by the users of the product.  \n\nWe have no one to blame here but ourselves for what we let Facebook do with our data.  Of you don't like it - delete your account.  You are in control.", 'Are we talking like Gabbie Hanna monstrous?', 'This wasn’t a surprise, anyone in stocks read the news ages ago. Apple to the moon!!!', "Boo fuckin hoo. They have to spend a little money out of the BILLIONS they've made to adapt to the new software. Fuck em", 'I would consider switching to Apple if they stop being so anti right to repair and stop using dumb gimmicks to get more money from me. But yeah, good on Tim Cook for standing up for privacy.', "Not really a big deal to begin with. It's just your advertising id... That's about it. So instead of getting relevant ads you'll get irrelevant ads.... Not even a privacy move lol", 'Good gracious he looks like an alien...or maybe a cyborg. I can’t look at Zuck anymore!', 'He is so hideous. He looks like an alien or some shit.', 'This reads like an Onion article. Good to know this is happening but a little more reporting and less sarcasm would be nice.', "Yeah well, who's hungry?", 'Now we just need apple to protect us from apple?', 'Oh, well that fixes everything. /s', 'Nothing is for free so if websites and advertisers loose ways to monetize things (not saying this is bad), they will find other ways and we may have to start (gasp) paying for content.', 'Lol wut?', 'This is how these articles should be written.', 'Facebook is a shitty social media site for shitty psychotic people.', 'Not really on topic, but is there a single picture of the zucc where he doesn’t look like he hatched from a fucking egg???', 'Might finally switch to Apple .... nah, I dispise their walled garden too.', 'Zuck is really leaning into the Data from Star Trek TNG  look.... or is he Lore?', 'The only way to stand out in a crowded tech world is to stand for something that nobody else seems to care about.  Y’all should stop being fooled about Apple’s stance on privacy.  They’ll all be shouting from the rooftops about how much they care about our privacy any second now.  All a charade.  The money is our data.  Not the hardware or their free services.  It’s data.  The sooner everyone realizes that the better.  I say this writing from my iPad with my Pixel next to me and my businesses balls deep on Facebook.  Data is king and privacy is irrelevant. If you want privacy, stay off the internet.', 'Thought this was an Onion article', "I've never considered switching from android to iPhone - until today.", "DELETE YOUR FUCKING FACEBOOK ALREADY. IF YOU HAVEN'T, JUST DOWNLOAD AN IMAGE OF IT (IN FB SETTINGS), POST A FAREWELL POST ENCOURAGING OTHERS TO JOIN YOU ON A MESSAGING APP (WIRE OR SIGNAL ARE A GOOD PLACE TO START) OR JUST POST YOUR EMAIL ([PROTONMAIL.COM](https://PROTONMAIL.COM) IS GREAT AND ENCRYPTED). \n\nJUST. FUCKING. DO. IT.\n\nCHRIST.", 'Is this *satire*?', 'Let me drown in tears with the pity I feel for one of America’s richest people crying about how another of America’s richest people has their company trying to help protect people’s privacy.', "The crowd swings their gaze in Google's direction", "Zuckerberg 101.  Fuck everyone in the pursuit of profit.  Apologize.  Rinse and repeat.  It's getting old Mark.", "This article is like an onion style blog? this is what passes for tech discussion on reddit now? unbelievable thread, it's like being at a MAGA rally. the amount of critical thinking present here is really disheartening", 'Huh? I’m glad they’re doing it', 'Fuck this asshole and his company have never had Facebook and never will', "Facebook can wipe my ass.  I can't believe that guy got rich by making the world worst.  Hope he chokes on his own vile and money.", 'what kind of headline is this', 'I thought this was an Onion article tbh', 'But Zuck’ll still keep profiting off of personal data, so it all balances out in the end?', "If you're called Zuck, I don't give a fuck. Maybe it's for the best that you can't track everything Mark.", 'r/nottheonion', '“ Facebook apologizes to users that they do worse things with your data than Apple does. Oh and they censor” How the hell is this guy a spokes person', "Sure, it's good that apple did this. But they own the OS, therefore their data collecting will still have no limits. Theyre essentially creating a monopoly on data collecting via iOS.", 'Man when will this Facebook bullshit end? Fucking horrible company, fuck you zuckerberg', 'The Zuck bot is in full red alert mode.', 'Money. Money. Money. Sorry about your privacy, Money.', 'It really is a damn shame when the majority of America has to hope some of our favorite companies can begin to transcend wealth in such a way that they can afford to actually begin protecting the rights of American citizens instead of solely appealing to their wallets, and even then it’s only done if someone can produce a long term plan that it will ultimately lead to more profit down the road. God save us all.', 'I am so touched by your sincere apology...same shit different toilet.', "Apple isn't trying to protect customer privacy, that's a nice hope but that's all it is, hope.  Apple it trying to control a very valuable commodity... your habits and personal information.", 'This reads like satire', 'I hate Facebook as much as the next guy, but holy shit this article is written in biased language.', 'Its funny how people think Apple is the good guy here. You know that apple will be selling IDFA data to businesses? That is their well documented plan. Apple wants its cut when it comes to advertising.\n\nThis is no win for privacy.', 'I don’t think people have realised the scale of this update from Apple yet. It will have a massive impact on the future of the internet. \n\nApple is (probably?) the biggest producer of products that people use to access Facebook and Google, and now Apple is straight up blocking their source of income.\n\nIt is GREAT news for consumers and the best news in tech since many many years.  It will also lead to an all out war against Apple from all the ad targeting companies. Interesting times ahead.\n\nOther companies (such as Samsung) will soon be in a very strange position: consumers will want and demand protection like Apple gives its users. Meanwhile they are dependent on Google for using Android as their OS. Sales goes to Apple. Some companies might even drop the Google-dependant Android.\n\nAlso expect Apple to launch their own search engine soon, or make a deal with some other search engine to replace Google as the standard on all Apple devices.', 'The title seems a bit one sided which makes me skeptical.', 'It’s time for Tom from MySpace to emerge from his slumber.', 'Excellent article; informative and funny.', 'Well, this makes everything a-OK. /s', "I hope Google follows apple, and does the same but this is making a compelling case for me to move to iPhone next year if I can afford it, between this and the software update support its getting more and more attractive, I don't like apple and it will definitely cost more then I want to pay because they still hate SD cards but can't put a price on privacy", 'Marc suckerberg', 'Thats most bipolar article I’ve ever read', '“Monstrous?”\n\nZuck is the monster in this tale.', 'Moving back to Apple just keeps getting better and better.', 'Forever dazed and confused, empty fucking expression on his dumb fucking face...', "Zuckerberg got Zuckerberge'd", "This is literally nothing. Why anyone is applauding Apple is beyond me. Ignorant people will opt to allow FB to take data (they don't care/don't understand the importance of privacy) and those that opt out give all of the leverage to Apple.\n\nThis is fucking sad...We are just divvying up data sales. Nothing more and nothing less.", 'NOT accepted', 'Apple did this because they care so much about their customers. Not to hurt the competition. Absolutely. /s', 'They really want people feel bad for them, huh?', 'the zuck is not human', "Meanwhile there is a massive security breach in Safari. It has been reported months ago now and Apple still didn't move a finger. Jackasses.", "That's it! I'm switching to iOS... something I thought I'd never do", 'What a totally unbiased headline that surely tells the whole story.', 'Wait until Apple force Facebook to pay 30% tax to push ads to its users.', 'I...may get an iphone now.', 'Mark “Village of the Damned” Zuckerberg', 'fucthefacebook', 'Facebook is 4Chan that your grandma logs into.', 'no idea why i found this is funny coming from FB', 'so, people will thank apple.', 'Zuck sucks.  He’s one of the most dangerous people alive.', '>That’s right, Facebook paid out some "billions" of its 71 billion dollars of revenues in 2019 for a reason it didn\'t quite have time to elaborate on. So, shut up, Facebook is the good guy, OK? And Apple, which runs a rival advertising platform, is wrong to stand in the way of this.\n\nI\'m in no way defending Facebook but this right here is why Apple are doing it. Not to protect Average Joe but to bump up their own revenue!', 'Is there a person alive who believes zuck anymore?', '“Come on guys, just let us watch you”', 'r/notheonion', 'This is like when mom forces you to apologize when you hit someone.You dont want to but still', 'I’m thrilled about this.', '‘In the future, everyone will enjoy real privacy for 15 minutes’ \n\nAndy Warhola ( kinda )', 'Another day, another robotic and sociopathic apology. This means they’ll never make another attempt at it......3, 2, 1 and queue!', 'Does that go for Instagram as well?', 'We’re sorry lol', 'Ya so I hope no one actually thinks that Apple is doing this for any kind of ethical reason. Everything comes down to $$$ sadly', 'Apple really going hard on this PR campaign I see.\n\nGotta make that money back that it lost on getting sued I suppose.', 'I am detecting a slight bias in this article. It is minor, I almost missed it. Could it be that the author is anti-Facebook?', "People complaining about privacy being hurt for a few ads where such ads is what allowed them to use free services.\n\nWe'll see what happens when the only way to make revenues is off subscriptions. Let's pay a subscription fee to Facebook and Google!", 'In other news, Fuckerberg and Trump go golfing.', 'Ok, but what is our move?', 'Might have to switch back to an iPhone, my galaxy has been shitting the bed lately anyways.', 'Apologies come from humans not corporations.', 'Facebook... hey, say what you want about Apple and Amazon, but at least they do some form of useful stuff. Not only does Facebook not do useful stuff, but it’s business model is just about to be expressly un-useful while somehow pretending to be essential to your wellbeing.', "I'll be switching to Apple in that case if Android doesn't take similar measures", 'This is why online, I go by the name Jack Mehoff. It’s hilarious the junk mail I get for Jack...', "Hilarious that Facebook considers itself a 'victim' in all this, given they are actively and unashamedly stealing people's private info and selling it off, in addition to promoting agendas/themes/political stances for again, money.", "Pretty shitty headline. They were fairly clearly apologizing to their *customers* - advertisers and investors - not their users. Why would they apologize to their product?\n\nAlso, the whole article is pretty bad. I agree with the viewpoint they're writing from, and still found the writing painfully slanted. The facts are quite enough.", 'This just makes it hard for developers to monetize their products. The up shot will have to be that users can by a subscription for an app on iOS; or choose to a use a free ad-supported version or ad-free paid subscription on Android.\nUltimately it will reduce the users of the Apple app store.', 'I deleted my Facebook account about a decade ago when it became possible to do so and I haven’t thought much about it since.   It really did not add any value to my life.   \n\nI only ever think about facebook when I over hear someone complaining about it ruining their life, or whenever Z-borg 3000 is testifying about his company’s behaviour. \n\n Seriously, why is he so fucking blue?  I’m tired of orange and blue skinned people controlling everything. It’s creepy.', "Can someone please explain this (opinions aside please, I'd like to form my own)?\n\nWhat is Facebook Audience Network? And what is this advertising ID Apple is banning? What's the existing situation and why the change?", "As much as I dislike Facebook and applaud Apple's efforts to improve user privacy, we shouldn't ignore the fact that a lot of independent app developers rely on ad revenue to support their business and this is a legitimate concern for many of them.", "I admit, I use Facebook, it's a good way to share stuff with family and friends.  I do hate how they spy on everyone though, and even if you don't have an account they still spy on you.  They will even make a shadow profile of you.\n\nThat said, I really do genuinely hope they die.  Something better will replace it.   I often think of coding something better, but I have no idea where I would even start to market something like that and try to convince people to use it.  I'm sure there must be 100's of attempts already that have like 5 users.  Even Google failed with G+, I think at one point they had 25 users, 24 of them were staff.", 'Zuckerberg has become a proper monster.', 'Facebook, right wing coddling, Trump scrotum juggling, number one enemy of democracy in the world today.', 'It pisses me off that Facebook is so demonstrably shit that Apple can take the moral high ground off them.', 'Literally just deleted FB then. Permanently. 12 years in the making .', 'Yet another reason to have iPhone fellows.', "> “in testing we’ve seen more than a 50 per cent drop in Audience Network publisher revenue when personalization was removed from mobile app ad install campaigns”\n\nRight, because now I'm back to getting ads for bras instead of guitars. Personalized ads are the best thing to happen to ads. Wish TV could know who I am, too, so I never had to see ad for Gillette razors or other stupid bullshit I have no interest in. I find people's irrational paranoia over it hilarious.", 'He will hang', 'Sidebar: I hate how articles always insinuate (or flat out state) that the advertising platforms are selling user data. From the article: \n\n>\tdatabase of netizens that it then sells access to\n\n>\tFacebook to sell people’s personal data to help mom-and-pop stores\n\nFacebook and Google absolutely do not sell your data. They do not grant access to any third party to view their database, other than perhaps some contracting for analytics (such as Cambridge Analytica). The data and profiles they create have long-term value, and selling the raw data would erase that value instantly.\n\nRather, they sell the *use* of the data to advertisers. An ad campaign says what audiences they want to target and FB/Google use their vast databases to determine if a particular user is a valuable target. The better their data, the more they can charge advertisers. But if they allow that data to leave their control, someone else can use it as a snapshot in time without continuing to pay, which wouldn’t make sense.\n\nI get that the articles are often trying to paint these companies as the bad guy, maybe rightfully so, and framing it as selling actual dossiers aids that. But the dishonesty doesn’t actually help anyone, it just creates more hysteria rather than properly educating the populous.\n\n/rant', 'Everybody seems to forget that Apple’s own ads network will still operate with identifier enabled by default. Apple isn’t protecting anyone’s privacy, only trying to make more money of ads.', "Apple isn't being a hero. They are just pushing their ad platform.", "You can't trust any company to protect your privacy, you have to do that yourself.", "Remember when Apple was at the forefront of consumer protection and you rarely heard of Apple computers getting viruses or data breaches?  I bet Pepperidge Farm remembers.\n\nUntil iPhone came along, I don't think I ever heard of a data breach from Apple.  Unfortunately this means they were literally just giving it away to the companies that got the information.", 'stop crying bitch. you got bested', 'how much did Apple pay him to write such a headline?', "It shouldn't be up to Apple to steer this, goddamn.  More power to them, but this inept administration should be regulating digital identities, not some private corporation.", 'Unfortunately there are no good guys here. Apple is also scummy, just in a different way than Facebook because their business model is different. But as a rule, giant corporations are **not** on your side. Maybe Apple beats Facebook on privacy (at least, here in America) but they also engage in a ton of anti-competitive business practices.', 'Apple needs to come out with a social media platform that adheres to their privacy principles...', 'Zuck off zuckface!', "You're insane if you think Apple give one iota of shit about your privacy or wellbeing.", 'This will affect lots of small business and people working in digital agencies. \n\nUnfortunately this thread is going to be full of people celebrating “mehh privacy” because it’s a buzzword they have heard and although they know nothing about the situation. Big companies must be bad. \n\nFucking idiots celebrating this when they haven’t got a clue what they are on about. And no, this won’t affect me.', "I'm guessing Apple wants to sell the data itself.", 'This is such a misguided and obviously biased reporting of events and of the actual point of facebook’s statement. This can affect normal companies who run ads on facebook and, just like the statement said, impact their ability to monetize their content. User privacy is very important but that’s not the point being made here, this IOS update can hurt businesses and won’t actually change anything in the daily lives of anyone reading this. “Haha facebook bad Zuck is a lizard person lolololol” is obviously the popular opinion here but it isn’t an excuse for posting biased fake news and misrepresenting facts.', 'Wow, all this bad press apple has been getting lately seems they are really paying the tabloids to make them look good.', "Can Apple stop jerking itself off over this change?  This is probably the 20th article I've seen in the past week on the same thing.", "Big deal.   I hate Apple all around, primarily for their censorship and controlling what you can and can't view or read on your phone.   Apple feeds on this type of BS, it's the only way they can survive.   Apple has majority of the market share in US, but Android owns global share.   Let them do what they will.... Maybe they will head towards a collapse in the coming years.\n\nOh, and you control the permissions in Android OS too.   You are asked the same type of questions.    Of course it's forced agreement  if you want to use your phone.  It's BIG DATA..  Creepy and amazing at the same time.", 'Funny how apple is blocking Facebook from data mining while they also use the iPhone to data mine thier own customers, and somehow they are the good ones in this story...', "apple aint't protecting sheeeeit.", 'Apple shouldn’t be involved in the decision.  Facebook should look to see if Apple uses any of the blocked methods themselves and if they do should sue for anticompetitive practices.  \n\nIt doesn’t matter what you think of Apple or Facebook but the removal of the ability to do something on a device should be made by only the app installer.', 'apple is not about protecting it users privacy. it wants to be the one that sells the info not facebook. apple charges you coming and going and nothing is for free', 'I’m probably shadow banned (fucking billy gaytes) but just in case I aint and someone can read this; it’s all fake, it’s a strategy that was put in place in order for normies to regain trust in Facebook and feel “protected”. Apple, google, amazon, facebook and others are government assets.', 'In all seriousness, I hope Google will take similar steps because it looks like Apple caught fb and others by surprise', 'We’re on 14 now??? Im on 12 And I wonder why my apps crash all the time', 'Serious, Apple has tried to make your life better, but feel secure in knowing we will do are best to feel bad about yourself.\n\n\n\n(#fuckfacebook) and delete your account', 'For a moment you got me pal, I was thinking this was an official statement!\n\nThen I saw the scummy word.....! :D', 'I always access my FB through IOS Safari not the FB app, with various content blockers i basically do not see any ads', 'And they sure do have lots of scum for all.', 'But fear not, apple has agreed to pick up all the slack scummyness and sell us this information at a premium, along with anyone else that is willing to pay for it.....', "I don't use Apple often as the hardware prices boggle my mind, but I have to admit that the other day I was warned that expanding a comment on a non Facebook website would allow Facebook to track me.  I value that greatly.", "This is 60% of the reason that I don't use Facebook.  The other 40% is because the world doesn't need to be connected to each other on a minute-by-minute basis - nobody healthy should care that much.", 'Its my data, I pay for it, and I want it. *- the Grinch.*', "and really.. the emphasis is on slightly.\nThis really wasnt some groundbreaking momentous change, where suddenly you are safe from tracking on iphones.\n\nDEFINITELY a step in the right direction. Definitely does hobble some spying.. but really.. its just 'slightly less'\n\nthey still sell your location info. they still know who you are.. they just dont have a handy ad id. But you still go to the same place just about every day, and stay there for long periods.. search maps using that location as the starting location. They Know who you are.\n\nthey'd just be slightly happier with an Ad ID.", 'When is this evil vindictive garbage human being going to stop being trusted. “They actually trust me, dumb fucks.”- Zuck Fuck', 'Fuck Mark Fuckerturd', 'For real tho', 'I hope they stop the oculus account linking so we don’t have to switch privacy policies and Terms Of Services to Facebooks instead of the Oculus TOS', 'What did Apple do?', '... because Apple now wants to be the scummy one. They are not updating their OS from the kindness of their hearts, they want to tap into that market.', 'Is there an android equivalent?', 'Users meaning advertisers', 'Is Apple on purpose playing like the good cop here to gain back the market share they’ve lost during the last years? Just flexing on their integrity?', 'How many of you guys deeply and really care about your data? I mean do you really have some real ideas what are these data are used except advertising purposes?', 'This is like a page out of Trump’s playbook', 'I’ve been putting off this update, good thing I don’t use Facebook anyway', 'He should apologize for his dumb haircut also. Bro, it’s too short for that bulbous nerd forehead you’re sporting.', 'That’s an actual quote?', 'This is one step closer for companies to pay for your data. FB was making money selling information and now Apple is just bringing in a model where users have to right to agree for this or not. FB can start paying the users money to have their data tracked and sold for other companies. Win win!!', "Note that apple is still being just as scummy as facebook was, they're just not sharing.", 'On the flip side of this coin, I turned off ad preferences on a few of my social media apps and was still seeing adverts, but they were for random shit I had literally zero interest in. Turned them back on because if I am gonna see them anyway I may as well see shit I *might* be interested in.', "I think most of the people complaining about FB violating their private data also want to have access to social networks, play mobile games and use other free apps that are only free because the publishers make money through targeted advertising. You can't have it for free but not have some sort of value exchange in the process. Yes, ads are irritating, but wouldnt it be worse and more irritating if the ads were not targeted and you were asked more often to pay for the mobile content you consume? Most of the digital economy has been built from the advent of advertising, I'm not gonna sit here and say its all above board or that data hasn't been inappropriately used in the past (yes Cambridge analytica I'm looking at you) for which FB should be held accountable and regulated to a higher standard, but I don't see Apple taking the Idfa out of commission as anything other than another tech giant trying to fuck over another tech giant and gouge app developers who they already take 30% of their revenues from in app purchases and who will no longer be able to monetise or advertise their games effectively.", '“Slightly less scummy’? Really? vote!', "Actually what I don't understand is Apple. Why are they making this change?\n99% of their customers don't give a crap about privacy they just want the newest shiny phone with the apple logo", "I knew Tim Apple was dangerous but I never knew he was *this* dangerous... standing up for people's data privacy is simply unacceptable when I need fb stonk to keep going up, up, and away.\n \nWho can I elect to fix this glaring overstep?", '"We know how *you* sleep, however: poorly. Your phone was still active and being moved a 12:38AM last Tuesday, even though you were due to be at work by 7:30AM, which requires a forty-seven minute commute from where live on Davis Place on the Hawthorne line train. And you complained to your housemate at 11:12AM on the 21st of July about your mattress, and again to your girlfriend on the 8th of August. And, well, let\'s just say your research into both sleep disorders and mattresses has been quite intense."', 'Such a scum bag lizard. His face looks like he has no soul', 'Are these legit quotes? Even in context it feels like satire.', '“That’s right, Facebook actually gave some of the money it made from running those ads through its system to the business that paid for those ads. Which doesn’t make any sense but shut up, Facebook is the good guy, ok? And Apple is wrong to be doing this.”', 'Fucking Tim Apple ruining Facebook and Fortnite!!!', 'Did you ever do that thing as a kid where you pinch/hold your tongue with your fingers and say "Apple". Yeah, those friggin Apples.', "No fucking way this is a real quote.\n\nEdit - wow not a direct quote but that's essentially what he is saying.", "I don't believe that Apple is doing this for some kind of greater good. I dont know why though, my guess is that they want to close their platform even more and kill Facebook as an advertising competitor.", "FWIW, this is going to shake-up the entire advertising industry which is already reeling from COVID. I know people don't like advertising, but the reality is that many companies are going to fold because of this and a lot of people are going to lose their jobs. It doesn't just put a dent in Facebook's pocket.", "If they cared about your data they'd invest in securing it on their own servers but they don't. Apple infrastructure is laughably bad, as is every system the customer can't see. They just don't want their customers helping the competition.", 'Pretty sure it\'s not meant to be a privacy thing, but a "I want the data for myself" thing. Apple are about as scummy as companies come.', "Apple sells your data to advertisers, too. This is a way for them to charge more money for your data because they're the only ones that have access to device-level now.", 'Say what we must about Apple as a company, but Mr Cook is a genuinely fine human being. Sweet little southern gay man that I’m pretty convinced wouldn’t hurt a fly and just happens to be a supply chain wizard.', 'This had to be a satirical quote, right? \nUsually I could pick up on this easier, but with the state of the world idk man', "Is that a quote from the author's opinion?", 'This should be it, honestly.', "https://web.dev/samesite-cookies-explained/\n\nRejecting cookies without the `SameSite` attribute set will help.\n\nThen rejecting third party cookies will seal the deal. The problem is shitty defaults in every brower but browsers are slowly improving.\n\nA problem I see is that a leading browser is owned by the world's largest advertiser, however.", "It seems that people's answer is to flock to Facebook-owned app Instagram or to pedophile-spy-Chinese-tool TikTok.", 'Facebook might lose tools for targeting and attribution but they still have monstrously huge Reach that will render this situation not end of the world for Facebook.', "It won't, they'll just be less profitable. Still really profitable though.", "This is a question for someone much smarter than myself... but why hasn't another company simply stepped in, offered similar services as Facebook for like $5 (just a random number I'm pulling out here) a month? The trade off would be that your data wouldn't be collected and sold, since it would be a profitable model for the company. I feel like a lot of people could get on board with that knowing that their data is safe and it would eventually topple Facebook.", 'But... money. And... money.', 'What Apple is doing is monopolising users data, they are no saints either, as long users are willing to give data in exchange of a services there will be a corporation taking advantage', "People need to just get off the site and stop using it altogether. People don't realize they are the product and advertisers are the buyers.", 'Its why things like GDPR exist in the EU. \n\nLobbyists and the money flows from PACs in the form of legal bribery. \n\nI work at a multinational company, they had a hard time understanding why we spent so much money in DC and first thought it was bribery and not lobbying efforts.', 'I really hope there is some kind of revolution where people start actually caring about their privacy, and demanding it.   It will take a lot to get to that point though.  There are massive data leaks of our personal info almost every day from various companies that spy on us and people hardly bat an eye.', 'It was the Cambridge Analytica scandal that finally got my to delete my account.', "Literally only use it for messenger and to stalk friends I've not spoken to since school to find out what they're up to now. I'm sure both of those functions are easily replaceable with other apps", 'I highly doubt the most powerful companies in the world to allow the sole thing that makes their business model viable to end anytime soon.', "Nah they'll just end up selling their own phones or buy up companies that get popular. They're too big to simply disappear.", 'Apple did a good thing for iphone users but at the same time no one really knows what happens to your personal data on an apple device because it is closed source.', 'Could be but this certainly does not spell the end of [data collection and ad targeting](https://www.forbes.com/sites/johnkoetsier/2020/08/07/apple-ad-network-gets-special-privileges-that-facebook-google-wont-on-ios14/)', "Oh god I hope this kills Facebook. It's one of the worst things to happen to humanity for real.", "Won't happen. Unfortunately the majority of people don't care about their privacy (as long as they get their social media fix) and give it up willingly.", 'It won’t, we either won’t learn anything, or there will just be some other social media network people flock to which will also become evil.', 'As a millennial who quit Facebook in 2010, all of you who complain and still use it sounds like  addicts ranting about the horrors of drugs...', "Prepare for the death of free services if this is the case. If you think it stops at Facebook you're being naive, this would kill Reddit and other growing social media sites before Facebook.", 'gym up, hit a lawyer.', "This but literally.  Facebook is a threat to our domestic security and Mark Zuckerberg should be prosecuted for his collection of user data.  You shouldn't be able to hide behind 12 pages of EULAs and stuff the data collection part   deep inside where no actual user will ever read it.", 'Just did this last night. Enough is enough man. I said I didn’t care that much but I realize I do. And I barely use it anyway.', 'Instagram and Whatsapp too. And Occulus.', "Don't forget it's also Instagram, WhatsApp and Occulus. Don't let them get away with naming their company Facebook. It's more than just the Facebook platform.", 'I can\'t.  It wants me to give it a state ID "to verify my identity".  Fuck them.  I\'m not giving them shit so they can turn around and sell and/or lose it.', "you actually can't, as far as I am aware. They already have your data. And researchers have shown they can use your friends and their pictures and contacts to keep tracking you.", 'Reddit and every other social media site is just as bad. Yet here we are, acting high and mighty.', "Yeah just deleted mine. I'm exclusively on instagram now.\n\nEdit: need to specify this is sarcasm.....", "I wish I could do this, but all my friends use messenger to chat so I'm stuck with it unfortunately.", 'is there anyway I can retrieve the birthdays from Facebook so I can officially be done with the app', "Important to note that Instagram and what's app are Facebook as well", 'I just left mine on with the last post stating I don’t use it and why. It’s surprising that so many people don’t have a problem with a company spying on them but get up in arms about the government doing it.', 'Done that about 3 months, feels good man.\n\nAlso have their services blocked with firewalls as well as other advertising companies.', 'I deactivated mine a few weeks ago out of the blue because I was just fed up with all the scandals and I knew all the political posts were about to kick into high gear and I just didn’t care to see any if that.\n\nI didn’t warn anybody I was doing it, so I do worry that some friends will think I blocked or unfriended them, but if they know me well enough and care they’ll have other ways of getting ahold of me. Otherwise, I doubt anybody has even noticed I’m gone. It’s been weird if I see a link or something that I want to post, because now it’s like I have no one to tell when I see something interesting, but whatevs.', 'but then how will i know what my friend had for lunch?', 'Hit the gym?', "Did all your friends use FB messenger to communicate? If so, how did you keep in touch with them?\n\nI deactivated FB but can't delete it without losing access to Messenger. It seems selfish to ask everyone to move to Discord or something.", "I'd love to but for some reason my kids school, athletics club, football club and other parents seem to think Facebook IS the internet, and that it's the only way to communicate with people, post newsletters and organise events. It's infuriating, but without Facebook I'd not be able to know what all these clubs/schools need me to know.", 'I still have mine but haven’t used it in years and years. Probably like 5 or 6 but I choose to keep it because there are pictures I posted and ones I’m tagged in I’d like to keep. Fuck, whatever’s there was probably sold off years ago.', "Way ahead of you bud. I don't often show off but I quit that shit in 2012", '*still has Instagram installed*', 'I would but right now I’m making decent money on FB Marketplace.', 'I never wanted to get it, I was extremely against it. But my school literally forced us to install it, all for some stupid polls and some announcements that for some reason they don’t post on our school website.', "My phone won't let me.", "My phone won't let me. I didn't download it, I don't use it, I've *never* used it, I'll *never* use it, but it won't let me get rid of it. I could only disable the app.", 'Hit the Lawyer', 'Can’t , I just ordered a rift s headset and soon you need a Facebook account to use it', 'Edit your comment and add Instagram too.. Facebook does all their awful things on Instagram as well', 'Is there a way to save all your photos and videos? Maybe wall posts? I love all my old stuff when facebook was kind of cool. I signed up early 2000s when you were required to be in a college and have a student email address. Would hate to lose all that.', "you can't just delete facebook because facebook has cookies and trackers on pretty much every website imagineable", 'Don’t use Facebook. Never needed to Very proud to be young enough to say that.', 'And Instagram', 'Theyre long overdue to be eliminated', 'The main problem with FB is that it doesn’t matter if you are a customer. You are part of their portfolio if you want it or not.', 'Can’t exactly do that when all student organizations and university related stuff is still tied to Facebook. Easier said than done. Can’t just switch to discord or whatever just like that', 'I deactivated it but I can’t completely delete it for good cos I use messenger :/', "Can't delete Facebook if you don't have one :)", 'Smash your phone', 'Instagram and WhatsApp', 'Done seven years ago', 'After the headline about what he said yesterday i had my account already deactivated. I went back on just to set it to delete. Dude has lost his mind.', 'Delete Instagram while you’re at it, it’s the same shit.', 'And IG and WhatsApp', 'I deleted mine in 2007.', 'Data was more human than that...', "I'd say he looks more like Lore.", "Don't you dare say mean things about our beautiful robo boy Data.", '**Data:** "captain, the humans called this social ritual an instance of *"smoking the meats"* and it proved an excellent approach in appealing to a more casual and layman audience."', 'This is so insulting to Data.  My stomach turns when Zuck’s face pops up on my screen.', 'Thanks to the power of deepfakes we can explore this further: [Datazucc](https://youtu.be/R9f7WD0gKPo)', "Lol you should watch Musk vs Zuckerberg's Epic Rap Battle. They say exactly the same line in one of the verses", 'Remember kids, it’s only ok to make fun of someone’s appearance if we don’t like them. God forbid anyone say the slightest thing negative about short or balding men on Reddit though, they go insane.', 'You just insulted my childhood hero, and no, its not zucc.', 'I have no idea who data is as i dont watch star trek but im 100% sure i know who youre talking about lol', 'Data + Cesar = Marky Z.      \n        \nEdit: Internet challenge: someone find the rule 32 proof of this math.', 'Elon Musk vs Mark Zuckerburg Epic Rap Battle of history makes a similar reference I believe', "Please don't insult the dead like that", 'I read on Facebook that Zuck is not actually human, so it must be true.', 'LMAO, check out these yahoos: https://www.ana.net/content/show/id/ResponsibleAddressableMedia\n\nThey seek to make a "responsible", "reasonable" advertising standard with belief tenets like:\n\n>\tConsumer privacy should remain a foundational pillar of the solution by providing consumers with meaningful transparency and controls, giving the marketplace the tools to understand consumer preferences and the ability to abide by those preferences.\n\nNote that they don’t want to give consumers the tools to protect their privacy, but to inform “the marketplace” what their wishes are so that “the marketplace” can ignore them.\n\nPRAM and their cretinous members prove, once again, that it’s hard to get someone to understand an idea that’s gonna cost them money. We don’t want to “inform the marketplace of our preferences”. We want to keep our information private, you jackwagons.', 'See I believe they still can. Correct me if I’m wrong here, but Apple is simply blocking the Facebook ecosystem from collecting data through your phone. Facebook still knows everything they already know about you, mainly the demographics you enter, the topics you post about, etc. \n\nThey just won’t know what websites you visit on your phone, what apps you have installed, etc. \n\nSo now the advertisers are “forced” to only target specific demographics. Which doesn’t seem as awful as they’re making it out to be. \n\nUnless I’m wrong.', "You can't target below 18 dum dum", 'Now I’m imagining Zuck naked on a bear skin rug in front of a fireplace. Thanks for that.', 'They’re not even saying sorry. Not even sarcastically. They’re grumbling in their sense of ‘but we deserve to be assholes!’', 'https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=15HTd4Um1m4', 'I deleted Facebook a few years ago, or I thought I did. Was off it for 2yrs then an ex went to tag someone who had the same first name and my profile popped up in the list.', 'Cant say it enough:\n\nFuck you Mark Zuckerberg', "Now that doesn't make any sense. If Zuckerberg isn't helping society, why does he have so much money? I thought capitalism encouraged innovation and innovation is invariably good. /S", 'Tom would have never done this to us.', 'Might find something out if this viewpoint becomes mainstream, but what do I know.', 'Motherfucking Jesse Eisenberg Jesus Christ fuck dude motherfuckin Facebook movie bullshit Jesus can you fucking believe this shit', "Which is the exact reason this needs to be regulated.\n\nYou can go to jail for using someone else's identity to enrich yourself.  Yet billion dollar corporations are somehow exempt from this...", "Apple's business model isn't intimately tied up with harvesting and selling access to huge amounts of personal data, so they have an incentive to compete with the likes of Facebook, Google etc and offer alternatives that don't require privacy violation as a core part of the business model.\n\nCourse many consumers still prefer the convenience that comes with the kind of mind reading you can do when you're just harvesting and processing endless amounts of personal data.\n\nAlthough Apple have their own problems with being gatekeepers of walled gardens, they don't pose the same existential threat that the likes of Facebook do who can facilitate genocide or decide elections if they allow their platform and data to be abused by malicious actors.", 'Wait, so which phone provider do you use that you vehemently trust your *important data* with?', 'Thank you for being the only person in this thread to actually discuss what exactly the specific change is, which not even the linked article does.\n\nWhile I think this change is a good thing and I\'m dubious of the severity of the consequences you propose, articles and discussions like these that contain no actual useful information and boil down to the same old stale "Facebook spies on you, Apple is good" circlejerk don\'t help anyone.\n\nAlso worth pointing out that it\'s possible to achieve the same result on Android, although it\'s not the default: ["How to opt out of personalized ads"](https://support.google.com/googleplay/android-developer/answer/6048248?hl=en)', 'I appreciate this breakdown, thanks.', 'Appreciate the breakdown. The amount of “Facebook bad” technological illiteracy is really disheartening to the potential of reasonable and actually effective regulations—in a way that’s not sandbagging indie app developers. \n\nWhat are the implications for Google AdSense? They seem relatively quiet about all this. Is it possible is going on the PR offensive here, because they’re unwilling to make reasonable changes to comply?', "Yep, the Facebook Audience Network issues will hurt the app makers first of all, and users second.\nFacebook makes enough money to be able to take the hit.\n\nPlus, it's not only Facebook that will be hit by these limitations - it's any ad network. So the app makers will have nowhere to run to.", "This is the answer that should be at the top and I don't even completely agree with you.\n\nThank you for pointing out the main benefit of registering to app developers.", '>  Given the choice between personalized small/unobstructive ads and large countdown full-page ads, I\'m not sure privacy will win here. \n\nThis is some horseshit argument. The choice is neither of those. The choice is giving up or not giving up privacy. The point is personalized data is not just limited to serving advertisements but can be used for any purposes including handing over to those who intend real harm. So most users who value their privacy will always prefer those "annoying full-blown ads" instead of so-called "personalized, unobstructive ads". Not to mention that an ad by its very nature cannot be "unobstructive" otherwise what\'s even the point? If the ad is too annoying and obstructive the users will simply stop using the app and the app developers know that very well. There\'re a lot of other alternatives.', 'You\'re getting gilded and praised when all you\'re doing is shilling for "personalized" advertising lol. The business model is fundamentally unethical. It\'s not valid to discuss "pros and cons" of a situation where users\' rights are being violated. And not only is the advertising unethical, it\'s the business model of perhaps the most monstrous and corrosive media company of all time, one that is a threat to public health and democracy. We must encourage all measures that reduce privacy invasion and harm Facebook. Facebook must fall.', '>\tThat article was painful to read as it provided no concrete example of what was being blocked. It also called it an "antisocial" network as if a 13 year old wrote the article.\n\nYou do understand that article was satire, right?', '>radicalized the youth\n\nIt is also being used to radicalize old people', 'Dude, sorry to burst your bubble but Google is exactly the same. Written from my Android mobile.', "> I hope Google or someone else develops a media tool which is substitute to instagram\n\nGoogle could easily create an alternative to instagram, but then they'll go and cancel it 3 or 4 years later.", 'How do you think Google ads are personalized ? In all this hate fest people forget Google does literally the same thing', 'Yeah. It no longer feels like a place to hangout.', '> I hope Google or someone else develops a media tool which is substitute to instagram cause since Zuckerberg bought it, insta has been quite shit.\n\nYou mean Google Photos? Picasa?', "Like that'd ever happen! What a load of-", 'Google never will until they are able to make a massive revenue switch away from ads, until that time, apple is actually starting to look attractive with their new cheaper SE phone and privacy focus', 'Is Google better? Thought their business model is more like Facebook, at least making money selling user data.', 'Why do you think Peter Thiel invested in it? \n\nPalantir wasn’t getting enough insight by just transcribing all our calls and texts- they needed to understand every connection between us in order to fracture us.\n\nCambridge Analytica used quizzes to get Facebook users’ friends’ info.\n\nPalantir has had a firehose since day 1.', 'Reddit: I want Zuckerberg to apologize for all the racism Facebook caused since the civil war!', 'After Fb bought IG, it went from 30 million users to a ~110 million users. Apparently, at least that many people disagree with you.', 'The commitment to privacy is the only reason I didn’t switch to Android a year ago', "Whatever you use you depend on corporations. Apple cares about privacy right now, but only because they have a marketing initiative against Google and others behind it. There's nothing stopping Apple from excluding themselves from their rules when they want to sell users data. They're not doing this out of altruism.\n\nIf you really want to not be tracked, support open alternatives. It's the only safer way.", "And yet I buy a smart tv and subscribe to paid streaming services they still take my information and sell it. \nI'm a commodity regardless.", 'Jaron Lanier is a prophet and a genius', 'It\'s customers being the people that buy your data, "we\'re sorry you might not be getting as much of these idiots\' data"', "Like the initiative, not the company ... apple will only do this as long as it advantages then. Don't put all your eggs in the same basket !", 'Take notice, all other companies', "They are probably just tweaking things so only they can sell your data. I don't trust them to safeguard my privacy anymore than I trust Facebook.", 'It’s not like Facebook has a choice. They have to make money somehow.', 'The article is satire.', 'Thank you for saying something! I had to actually read the article to find out what the hell it meant, so I guess that was the point lol', 'Not your fault. Or was it?', 'Are you Zuck’s parents', 'Ive never owned an iphone but this was a damn good advertisement to seriously consider one when the time comes.', "Android user since the G1 here.  Made the switch 2 months ago and I'm completely satisfied.", 'Its the Internet you can say fuck', 'Apple will have the public’s support on this one, that’s for sure.', 'I work for them. They are incredibly moral in everything I have ever seen them do.', "Apple is making a change to iOS that will impact Facebook's (and similar companies) ability to gather data on you. Facebook is trying to spin this and by extension is making Apple look great.", 'They should vilify them. The problem is most people here haven’t his clue what’s this is about or the thousands of small business it will have a huge impact on. They just hear the word privacy and jump on the Facebook bad bandwagon. Because they heard “privacy good”', 'Notifications will pop up when apps will want to use your identifier and there u can allow or forbid the tracking', "That's not the fault of Android, it's the fault of your phone manufacturer or your carrier which requires it on the non-stock Android phone you have. Facebook is not part of stock Android. I have a Google phone, and had to install it (and can uninstall it at will).", 'Wait you haven’t gotten the “demon possession if you jack off” line. If that was true my teen years would have been one nightly possession after another. Twice on weekends.', 'Yes. When you side load you can hit any private api.', 'I deactivated mine. If for nothing else, the upcoming election has got people crazy. I may go back after. Having withdrawals. But I’m sticking with Reddit for now.', 'I hope you deleted Instagram and WhatsApp as well.\n\nThat’s the thing, I feel a lot of people are being disingenuous about it and simply jumped to Instagram instead.', 'It’s so you it can spell names from your contact list, which in the general case are not necessarily English (or whatever language your Dictation is set to).\n\nAt least it gives you the warning and flexibility to not agree', 'So they only needed 14 versions of iOS to get to this. Maybe, just maybe in iOS 20 they will allow a user to change the DNS server so that finally an Apple user can select a DNS that actually blocks trackers and ads across all apps on that device. Like you can do on Android.', 'Apple has been much better on privacy. It’s part of their brand positioning so they don’t get too much credit for it.', 'Look up Apples stance on right to repair. Apple only cares about the money you can give them.', 'Well the android OS is made by google so that says something.', 'They censoring every god damn thing these days wtf happened to freedom of speech', "Are you familiar with the phrase the enemy of my enemy is my friend?\n\nIt's like that but for all these players. The more they fuck with each other the happier I am.", 'I really don’t see how you managed to miss the fact that the whole article is sarcastic. Guess they needed to put a huge /s for you.', "You've heard of sarcasm, right?", "Both companies makes products or environment to make money.\n\nDo not forget that. They're not your friends. Just because Apple cares about privacy right now doesn't mean they care out of altruism or will always care.\n\nThey care because it gives them a good image.", 'That won’t EVER happen because Facebooks livelyhood just so happens to be Googles livelihood as well.', 'It’s fucking adorable that you think Google will do anything to help the idiots who use Android keep their data private!', "Android does exactly the same thing already.  \nhttps://developer.android.com/about/versions/10/privacy/changes#non-resettable-device-ids\n\n\nToo bad it doesn't fit your fanboy narrative", ' or in android you can remove unnecessary permission from Facebook app, though I have never used Facebook but I do use Instagram and have disabled camera, microphone and location permission.', 'Betaprofiles ... get it now', 'Bullshit. Apple generate revenue from selling hardware. Lovely expensive hardware.', 'I have never signed up. Go Apple!', "Nothing wrong with Apple wanting to make money! Apple's model is more focused on consumers and their privacy. That's worth something.", "https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Verge#Controversy  \n\nYou're getting info from the same idiot company that had the verge computer guy.\n\nThen they got called out on their bullshit and did takedowns on the people who pointed out the stupidity", 'When did people forget what Apple’s principles are? They never were Microsoft or android. Don’t like it, don’t buy it.', 'Why is wanting to make money a bad thing? Like even if they didn’t put that 30% into running the app store (which they do), there’s nothing wrong with wanting profit. Why do you even go to your job?', 'I’m confused, why can’t you just setup download station to watch a intakeTorrent directory and download the torrent files to that directory via http? It would pick them up and start automatically.  You could also just drop the torrent files in that dir via the files app which has smb support, ds file or Synology drive apps\n\nhttps://www.synology.com/en-us/knowledgebase/DSM/help/DownloadStation/download_setup', 'It not only doesn’t do anything good. It does the evil.', 'I read a couple of comments that seemed to somehow miss the fact that the entire article was sarcastic. Guess they need to start putting a /s for redditors....', 'Does the word “Duh” mean anything?\n\nApple has had a solid track record on privacy and data security since before it was an issue people cared about, and this is just continuing the way they’ve been going for over a decade.', 'Is this a copypasta? I swear I’ve read something identical but instead of saying Facebook will go full Nazi, they will go full communist.', 'Lol. Projecting at its finest. Who is canceling people? Labels people white supremacist, nazi (lik you just did), xenophobe, transphobe, racist etc? What side has all mainstream companies forced to show their “loyalty” to them? What side lost the election to a majority that was silenced into voicing their believes? Protip: it’s not the party of Trump.', 'You are a tool. Apple’s business model, unlike Google’s or Facebook’s, is not dependent on selling your private data for money.', 'Better them having exclusive control over my data than Facebook selling it to everyone', 'You can make a legal request to Apple to hand over all the data they have on you. Try it. There isn’t much.', "It's called changing pimps. This one won't hit us in the face at least.", 'Apple has a lot more stringent rules for their App Store and privacy. It was a huge thing recently when they refused to create a back door for the us government to hack into phones.', 'Yes, they are. Exploiting software vulnerabilities and violating security policies is what malware does, not what good behaving companies do.  \n  \nhttps://boingboing.net/2020/08/11/tiktok-exploited-android-secur.html\n  \nhttps://www.wsj.com/articles/tiktok-tracked-user-data-using-tactic-banned-by-google-11597176738', '>is X good?\n\n>how does reddit feel about X?\n\nnot even remotely related. Maybe inversely', "Every thread about Apple is biased.\n\nPeople in this very thread are acting like Apple is some kind of defender of the people here.\n\nLmao, no. They're doing this because it gives them a very good image. The second it doesn't make them money they will stop.\n\nYou can't trust corporations with your data. Period.", 'Ha ha ha!   Oh, the haters will continue to find plenty of other stuff!', 'Let me call my guy Tim Apple', 'You already know the answer.', 'Afaik no, since google’s interests are the same as Facebook’s, so they won’t ever put any restrictions to data collection.', 'Yes YOU are the toy', 'I don’t care _why_ they do it, just that they do it.', 'You’d have to get an older discontinued model for that. I think the iPhone 8 was the last one to have Touch ID. Newer models use Face ID instead.\n\nEdit: I forgot about the iPhone SE. It’s current and has Touch ID.', "Yes, I would absolutely like the choice to pay for Facebook, Google, Instagram, or whatever, is it means I can just use it without all the bullsh*t. Millions of people would. Ads have been the most hated thing on the internet since day one. But it's never going to happen.\n\n2.7 billion users on fb. If a third of them paid even a buck a month, that's $900,000,000 a month in revenue. Not enough. They make more money than any of us can fathom, selling data on 2.7 billion people, selling ads to them individually, etc.", 'Do you live under a rock?', 'You. Are. Their. Product.', 'Get and iphone you wont regret it', "Android ALLOWS you to protect your privacy on your own.  Root it and install all the ad blocking apps you want.  I've never seen an ad on YouTube on my Android devices.", 'An apostrophe after the “s” refers to more than one', "delete ig. i know you don't have a fb", 'Ads just plain suck! When I go shopping for a pair of shoes or a car, leave me the hell alone! I will let you know when I need you! Ads on phones computers etc are no different. And it lets me know they are watching my every move. I know you can’t avoid it completely if you use the internet or a smartphone, but damn! I quit using anything google related/owned a while ago and life is better.', 'Warning you in real time if your camera, microphone or location is currently used by a certain loaded app? If it reads your clipboard content even when it’s not supposed to look at the keyboard?\n\nI honestly haven’t heard of that on Android', 'Unfortunately, this post has been removed. Facebook links are not allowed by /r/technology.\n\n*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/technology) if you have any questions or concerns.*', 'That’s true.\n\nAnd then it’s a matter of whether you trust Apple more than Facebook in regards to the safekeeping of your personal data.', 'But at least it has the potential to slow down in the upcoming years...', 'If only it would be about advertisements.\n\nTake it this way: your perception about reality is the average of the information you come in contact with. If I am going to tell you that country X has developed an easily spreadable, dangerous virus and released it to the public, you probably won’t believe me right away.\nIf 10 more websites besides me start pinging you with the same info (for pure marketing reasons: your clicks generate revenue for them, basically the definition of click-bait, the news don’t HAVE TO be true), your perception about reality will tend to shift and you’ll slowly start to believe such news.\n\nOf course, this is a silly example, but imagine how much damage could political propaganda, bad science articles or simply hate trains bring to your perception of reality if a network decides that you (or your sibling, significant other, neighbour etc) have a tendency to believe a certain type of news.\n\nThis entire system works because such data is collected from you by companies like Facebook and fed to thousands of shady third parties who...buy your data to then expect a return in terms of number of clicks from you, baiting you with bad (fake) news.\n\nAlso, this is an already old and over-used statement, but I think it’s worth ponding over it: if a product is free to use, then maybe you are the product. Your personality, behaviour and habits are what generate money for them. And it doesn’t sound like it’s for your own good.', 'I remember the days of online groups/clans throwing in together for game server hosting, voice chat(Ventrilo) servers, web hosting for forums, etc. I miss that.', 'Hey there! I hate to break it to you, but it\'s actually spelled _mon**e**tize_. A good way to remember this is that "money" starts with "mone" as well. Just wanted to let you know. Have a good day!\n\n----\n\n^This ^action ^was ^performed ^automatically ^by ^a ^bot ^to ^raise ^awareness ^about ^the ^common ^misspelling ^of ^"monetize".', "Nah. Apple told the government to fuck off because Apple didn't want other companies to have access to the backdoor via leaks or hacking. \n\nApple doesn't give a shit about our privacy, they care about their control over their users data and their hardware. Full stop.", "This has nothing to do with standing up for privacy. This is 100% about Apple and it's control.", 'What about Instagram, WhatsApp, Oculus and  GIPHY?', "Don't believe for a second Apple is doing this to protect your interests or that your data will really be safer.\nThere is no good reason to trust Apple either.", 'You don’t know much about Apple’s data collection do you?', 'They do a better job of pretending to care about that than Facebook.', 'I orange it!', 'So? That’s like going to a great restaurant and saying they only make tremendously good food because it is a competitive advantage that earns them more money.', "I don't care if someone does the good thing because it's profitable, so long as they *do the good thing.*", 'Delete facebook', 'Most of the paid apps on my phone have a one-time upfront cost and that’s it. No ads, no subs. What a radical idea.', "There's a special place in purgatory, perhaps hell, reserved for Mr. Zuckerberg.", "Or just don't have Facebook.", "On the other hand, Android is harder to crack locally. It depends on who you want to protect your data from.\n\nIf it's both, then neither Apple or Google are your friends ;)", 'I laugh at people who spend more than 1000 on an android device. It’s so cringey. I laugh at people that spend more than 300$.. honestly. The iPhone is without a doubt the best at being a mobile phone in all regards, and has been from the first day it came out.\n\nAndroid fanboys are the worst - but at least In the event of an apocalypse we’ll be able to heat our food over the backs of their phones from all the overheating and stability issues.', 'I too like intrusive advertising.', 'I find the idea that you want advertisers to know who you are to be hilarious.....and kinda gross.', 'yeah, right. Ads are good. I love targeted ads. They help me find relevant products.', "I'd say that's rather unlikely considering they're still growing and have 2.54 billion users lol", "you know that they own a ton of companies as well.. so they aren't going anywhere\nthe Facebook platform itself might in 50 years when moms and dads of today are gone... but the younger people tend to use Instagram which is also a Facebook owned app (of course it's not 100% accurate but everyone knows that parents tend to use the last cool app (they are on Facebook and are coming to Instagram when kids have moved to snapchat and tik tok)", '? I thought we agreed on the Guillitine ?', 'True.  The name of the game is money.', 'Can you explain yourselves instead of calling people "fucking idiots” and moving them away from your argument?', 'It’s a big fucking thing though.', 'It’s not like Apple are the ones writing the articles though, what do you want them to do? Call all news agencies and tell them to stop writing articles on their new privacy features?', 'Android is a whole operating system not a phone, there are many android phone makers, samsung, google, oppo, oneplus, etc etc', 'They do more than Facebook. Very little of their business comes from advertising.', 'I don’t know if you’re being ironic, or you’re really that much of an idiot.', "Naw dude. That ability doesn't belong to either the phone make or the app maker. It should be up to the user. I really don't understand this mentality that owning a phone isn't complete ownership. If known a computer, I can mod it however I feel like. Same with a car or a game console. I'm not renting that shit.", 'Why exactly would apple sell my info? They sell products and get more than enough money from that', 'Bullshit. The guy who was running iAds was very clear why Apple’s ad agency failed. iAds had no access to user data. He was stating it as “look how stupid Apple is”. It takes 2 upper management and 1 board member’s sign off to get access to any piece of user information.', "Psst, you aren't shadow banned, but your comments are bad.", 'I can\'t see that happening. Apple took an important step, but i think they did it knowing it would sell products, and knowing their competitors wouldn\'t be willing to make these steps. Im not crying  "oh they\'re just try to sell more phones". But I can almost guarantee there was a lot of financial research done before applying these changes.', "Apple's got zero skin (er, well, as little skin as is possible with a trillion dollar diversified enterprise like Apple) in the marketing/big-data game, so this is a move they can make without harming their core business model.  Internally something like this isn't any harder a sell than any other major feature/direction push.\n\nGoogle's built on a foundation of the same sort of big-data/marketing tracking and analytics as Facebook - they benefit a lot from Facebook being loud and proud with its unapologetic bad behavior and creepy reptile-robot human(esque) face, because if they got near the level of scrutiny as Facebook it'd become pretty apparent how very much in the same tier they were when i comes to privacy (or the systemic and monetized violation of privacy).\n\nGoogle will *never* be able to sell a policy push that amounts to gutting their core source of profits in order to improve customer opinion of a bit of software that they largely maintain *pursuant to said core source of profits*.\n\nLike, they made a ubiquitous smartphone platform with minimal barrier to entry in large part to put data collection devices into the pockets of as many people as possible.  They're not going to, all of a sudden, sabotage the data collection features of said data collection devices.", 'Google is much closer to Facebook than to Apple. If anything, Google will limit Facebook’s tracking so that Google can sell their own tracking for more.', "This will be buried, but everyone else in this thread is wrong: Google has already announced that it's killing third-party cookies in Chrome:\n\nhttps://blog.chromium.org/2020/01/building-more-private-web-path-towards.html\n\nThis is fundamentally the same change that's causing Facebook problems. So the answer is: yes, Google is taking similar steps.", 'Sell effective ads, or privacy. Pick one.', 'Serious doubt. That’s like 99% of their revenue down the drain', 'Just delete Facebook', "Google is as bad as Facebook, probably worse. They are listening always. Ever talked about how you'd like to learn how to play guitar and magically Google ads start showing adverts for yousician and other music learning apps?", "No. Google is an ad business and Apple is not, Apple doesn't sell ads (so far). So Android users would have to continue to sell privacy to businesses. As much as I advocate end user privacy - this would unfortunately hurt small businesses. Facebook/Instagram ads are all that they can afford.", '[Actually it looks like Apple is going to do the same thing to Google](https://www.coywolf.news/seo/apple-search-engine/)\n\nnow begins the question of when apple will be determined as a monopoly', 'From a business perspective, this can only mean Apple is monopolizing customer data for their own profit and sale! Developers, as I have read, are now forced to get their big data from Apple.', "I enabled location history on google the other day and a few days later I got a reminder with instructions on how to turn it off/erase. I'm hoping it's not just me, but I really feel they're nowhere near as bad as they're made out to be.", 'A company that thrives on selling your info? Taking steps to prevent the gathering of said info? Wow.....', "Google created Android so they can avoid what just happened to Facebook. They want to control how they gather information.\n\nTheir main source of income is advertisement, so it's counterproductive for them to make it less efficient for advertisers. They would try to keep it going if environment allows (i.e. people still buying Android despite being tracked)", 'HahahahahahahahahahhahaahahahhahHahaahahahahahhahhahahaahahahahahahahahahshahahahahhahaahshshshshshshshshshshshshshhshshsshshshhshsshhshshshahahahaahahahhahahahaaahahahahahhahahahahahahahaahahahhahaahhahahahaahahahhahahaahahhaahha', ">The antisocial network that makes almost all of its revenue from building a vast, constantly updated database of netizens that it then sells access to, is upset that iOS 14, due out next month, will require apps to ask users for permission before Facebook grabs data from their phones.\n\nDoesn't Android already do this?", 'Unlikely. Most of Apple’s revenue comes from hardware sales and the rest from the App Store and the like. They have no vested interest in keeping advertisers happy. Google by contrast is an advertising firm with some hardware and soft sales on the side.', "It caught literally everyone by surprise. Which is so awesome. You don't typically get these cool system shocks to the tech world.", "Google's and Facebook's entire business model is monetizing on breaches of users' privacy. Apple sells devices and can afford to protect it's users, it's a differentiator for them. This is a road where Google cannot follow them.", 'I think a lot of these companies have grown far too large, but if anything can take on Facebook and their shitty practices it\'s Apple, the government sure hasn\'t done shit to protect the consumer lately.\n\nIt feels like a godzilla moment... "Let them fight."', 'Facebook services cannot be removed on new one plus devices. Hence fuck em both.', 'I hope so too because it would suck if something like privacy protection was the deciding factor for people on which device to buy, it should be there for all.', 'They caught we sites when it did iOS 12 or 13 with the do no track.', 'Google is even bigger data whores', 'But Google is just as much in the ad game as Facebook is...  Android phones track as much as they can about you and the aggregated data is what Google creates its service from. So hindering FCBK alone would not really help with privacy concerns overall - or is the single concern that FCBK is tracking your data?', 'The continual increase of privacy and user data security on iPhones has me considering switching away from Android after 10+ years.', 'That would be the equivalent of the guy throwing the stick into his own front bicycle wheel meme.', 'Google makes their money from selling user info for ads just like fb. No way they’ll do this.', 'From the article it just says that iPhones will now ask your permission before accessing your data, isn\'t this just the same as Android\'s little popups when you launch an app for the first time "this app wants access to your gallery" thing?\n\nGenuinely want to know. (in case this comes off sarcastic or something)', 'Google makes its money off of selling user data, Apple makes money off of in app purchases and hardware. If google were to implement this it would severely decrease their revenue.', 'I hope so. But, Google is far more about you being the product.', 'Been an Android user the whole time. This will get me to switch. Google better follow or I can see many moving.', 'That’s funny', "Maybe Google will apply their old long removed statement of values *Don't be evil*.", "Sadly Android only seems interested in copying the worst of Apple not the best. I'm still waiting on federal agents to complain about Android phones they can't access. Apple secured their phones several generations ago but we Android users still don't have the same level of privacy on our devices.", 'Google themselves operate on heavily collecting user data for advertising purposes.', 'I believe the tech to do it is already there, just not the default.', 'Google is much more insidious than FB and depends much more on tracking data.', 'Huh? Then how will google monetise android?\n\nIt’s all about grabbing data for ad sales.\n\nIf market pressure is there they may eventually follow suit. But there won’t be as much value in R&D on Android then.', "Use a private dns. It's system wide and better than nothing.", "I've got a rooted phone. What can I do to get the same level of privacy?", 'google is playing facebooks game, the only reason it would is to stimey the competition.', 'As someone who works in the ad space industry, there are many who felt the writing was on the wall for IDFA. Facebook probably felt the practice was “too big to fail”.\n\nUltimately, it’s going to be a good thing. Companies that fail to adapt will struggle, and many other companies will continue to thrive. Unfortunately, this won’t hurt Facebook that much. Smaller demand-side ad companies will fail. \n\nFor more info on how this impacts the industry, I recommend this article.\n\n\nhttps://mobiledevmemo.com/mobile-advertising-without-the-idfa-a-comprehensive-overview/', 'Well most android manufacturers can start by not pre installing bullshit Facebook on their devices.', 'Not just Google, Samsung has Facebook already downloaded and you are unable to remove it normally.', 'I actually said the same thing yesterday but as another redditor pointed out to me, Android is already doing this. iOS 14 will require a permission setting to be explicitly set for an app to be able to see the device ID, which is what Facebook is bemoaning here. Android has had that same feature since Android 10.', "Considering Google (Alphabet) makes so much money from ad revenue themselves, I can't imagine them taking a similar stance to Apple on this. I'd hope so, being an Android user.....", "Was thinking the same. If google could follow it would be great...\n\nBut I'm doubtful", 'Hahaha, you know nothing about google.', 'Google literally makes a majority of their profits off of selling data on their users and selling targeted ads.  Out of the box Android tracks all movements and they store it unless you "pause" it which is probably bullshit and they still store it anyway. Good luck that....', "They won't. That's the brilliance of this move by Apple. They can pivot to privacy and sell a shitload of hardware and services. Google's business model is your data. They literally can't compete here.", '> it looks like Apple caught fb and others by surprise\n\nThey\'ve been talking about it for a while now, it was only a matter of time. The issue is that FB and a few other companies have built a small industry around the feature in providing "retargeted" ads - basically you can tell what people have been doing and target ads at them based on their history. You don\'t exactly know who they are, just what they\'ve done. Eg. "this user looked at this product on our site, so they must be interested in this thing or things like it"\n\nhttps://retargeter.com/what-is-retargeting-and-how-does-it-work/\n\nRetargeting was a good business because you can sell ads to people who you know have some sort of interest in the ad material. You could look at a clothes iron on some random website, and then when you visit something else the advertising would show you more clothes irons or something.\n\nIt\'s much better than spending money to show random general ads to people who might have no interest, and it can also be used to show ads to your own customers for things like sales or promotions - ads which would be completely wasted for people who are not customers already.', 'They won’t. \n\nApple’s business model is selling their products and services. \n\nGoogle’s business model has been selling your data and information. There’s a reason their phones are cheaper (although not by much).', 'Google makes their money the same way Facebook does. There is no chance Google does anything at all.', 'As a lifelong android user who has never had an iphone, this is really making me think about jumping over to Apple. They just seem to take privacy more seriously than Android/Google.', 'Google makes money off collecting and selling you data. They won’t make any meaningful change.', "I hope they don't. Privacy should be an industry standard, based on rules or laws, not a proprietary system used to gain sales advantages. \n\nTo me its also p obvious this is gonna be a precursor to apple having its own ad system to sell ads on its apps. It wants more money from its app store. Completely stomping on personalised ads will make free apps a thing of the past. \n\nImo 2021 apple ad id goes live an amazing way to track users on ios and it totally protects privacy we swear but also we now make an extra 3 billion a year.", ' Google, the data and advertising company?', "Google doesn't tend to hire the type of people in upper management positions who give a shit about privacy.  Eric Schmidt's career is a huge red flag.", 'They actually might do something like that. It would hinder one of their big rivals when it comes to online ads (Facebook) and might give their own ads some sort of advantage (depending on how they do all of this). It might even be worth it just to push Facebook into trouble (even if it hits Google to some degree).', 'Unlikely. I believe Google and Facebook make most of their money the same way by selling ads aimed at their users. Apple sells phones. \n\nThe users are googles and facebooks product while they are Apples customers.', 'I was expecting Apple to encourage it rather than combat it.', 'Google is never gonna do that because they are in the same business as FB, harvesting data.', 'JJJamesonYouSeriousLaugh.gif', "Just don't put failbook on your android-based mobile devices and you can have even better privacy that IoS, problem solved!", 'Firefox is a good fix.\n\nRemove and disable the Facebook app, run from Firefox!', 'Not a chance. They run Youtube at a loss and it is propped up only by Google adsense. Adsense is a massive source of income, possibly their largest. Their whole business model relies on you giving them your data. Apple makes enough money off of its name to do this to try and stab at more of the market share over companies like Google.', 'I’ll never buy an Android because of this.  I mean that and my iPhone refuses to die.', 'Facebook is literally google-lite. I find it hilarious that you would even entertain such a notion.', 'For Google, their customers is THE product, so not going to happen', 'Google? The company that also collects as much data on you as possible? Ya, sure, ok.', 'Google’s business is also advertising. Hard to see how they can push their own advertising while simultaneously cracking down on others without it becoming an anticompetitive issue.', "Apple isn't in the data game as much as Google is. I don't see Google following suit easily", 'Google has the same profit model as Facebook when it comes to harvesting and selling data.\n\nThey will do nothing you’re suggesting', "Google won't because it too disrespects users privacy to personalize ads. That's how they make the lions share of their profits. If anything Google would limit Facebook so that they can have all the data to themselves.", "Google's ad platforms (AdSense and AdMob) are just as dependent on the unique device identification code that Apple restricted access to in its upcoming iOS version.", 'google is an ad company, my prediction is that if Google does it they will just do it in a way that only affects the tracking in the apps themselves, but continuing slurping the same data through Android itself, while collecting the PR points for "caring about users\' privacy"', 'If iMacs weren’t so horribly overpriced I’d want to give them my money', 'Iirc iOS13 had a lot of efficiency updates so you might find that it runs better.', 'Update. 13 was a wonderful release, and 14 will be one of the most impactful they have ever put out.', "Why haven't you updated to 13? It's been out almost a year...", 'I use an SE and couldn’t tell you what ios i’m on lol', 'Yeah, 13 is basically the latest cut off too. You wont be able to submit anything that is less than 13 to the store as a developer. In doing so you get access to new SDK features that will crash on your phone if you dont have them. Such as running an ios 13 heavy app on your ios 12 phone.', 'Wait and maybe you can jailbreak. \n\nI remember I had this tweak that faked or blocked my location to any app I decided. It was great.', "They're trying to fuck with their competition and improve their PR, not make your life better. That's just a side effect.", "> Who can I elect to fix this glaring overstep?\n\nDon't worry, Facebook's algorithm will show you all the right-wing memes and analysis by the internet's most well-informed people to help you decide!", 'You should donate to Zuckerberg directly. That would be a good start to fixing this.', "He don't stand up for people privacy, but for Apple monopoly on that data.", 'Who can we *pay* to fix this glaring overstep?\n\nIs the name of the game in US politics', ">standing up for people's data privacy\n\nMore like they want to keep the data for themselves.", 'What’s weird is their stonks seem to be going up in the midst of this change.', 'Tpusa has joined the chat', 'Andrew Yang', 'File a bug report, obviously....', ">standing up for people's data privacy is simply unacceptable\n\nHe's not standing up for your data privacy, he's standing up for his monopoly on your data.", '>> I knew Tim Apple was dangerous but I never knew he was this dangerous\n\nI wish sergey, larry and sundar were dangerous like tim apple.', 'Since you decided to bring the election up....Just a reminder that Facebook is more than 4 years old and that the Obama Admin and Silicon Valley were like this 🤞🏻. I’m no fan of Trump’s, but if you expect the Biden admin to bear down on the giant tech monopolies, you’re going to be veeery disappointed.', "Yeah he's not. It's just a ruckus with FB. Google is selling Apple's data. They're loyal to Google. Mr. Cook is selling your data to the highest bidder, FB just wasn't it.", 'don\'t forget that [Tim Cook loves to gargle China\'s cum](https://qz.com/1879754/hong-kongs-protest-movement-stymied-by-apples-china-ties/). Here\'s another article by ProtonMail\'s CEO "[How Apple uses anti-competitive practices to extort developers and support authoritarian regimes](https://protonmail.com/blog/apple-app-store-antitrust/)".\n\n_"iOS is so cancererous to consumer freedom, that it makes Bill Gates look like Richard Stallman."_', '"Anyways, here is a great drug that can help you sleep."', 'I saw a Shimano photo shoot for the shimano next road cycling catalogue the other day when in the mountains, I discussed that with my partner.\n\n guess what YouTube channel was in my feed less than 24 hours later which I have never searched for or looked at before....', 'What a ridiculous notion, Mark Zuckerburg is almost certainly not a lizard or any other type of non-human. He possesses roughly the same number of limbs and organs as the latest human models, and enjoys human hobbies such as the smoking of meats.', "But he's always got booger snot dried all over his hands", 'A fuckin lizard on ice', 'Free Botox in the reptilian underworld.', "Don't insult lizards, lizards are very incredible creatures just like the rest of their fam in the reptile class.", "Nothing on bezos though. Seriously they need to invent some cosmetic surgery to make your eyes look like you have a soul. The south park representation was pretty hilarious.\n\nSeriously though what's with lizard people and being so successful, hearing bezos talk is enough to convince me he's evil", 'For future reference, The Register is a serious, and general well regarded publication, for tech news, but they don’t pull any punches and their articles are generally written with heavy over-tones of sarcasm.', 'It\'s a quote from the author of the article, holy shit people no one at Facebook said that, no one reads fuck all anymore.\n\nAlso ctrl-f is a life saver in the fact checking world if you\'re too lazy to read the whole thing\n\nYou specifically said, "even in context," please be more specific, in what context did you read that quote?', "I checked the official release from Facebook. The quotes are real, if you can even believe it. The press release is basically bemoaning how they will be unable to help their developers and partners monetize their platforms on Facebook as easily or make as much revenue, since they'll be unable to target their ads as specifically. Boo. Hoo.", "If you're not going to bother to read the article, just know that yes, it is a quote from the author of the article.", 'Read again then', "it's in quotes because it's in the article, try the ctrl + f thing, since your reading ability appears to be failing you", "It's 2020 dude", "99% of people on Facebook will literally never even hear about this, and out of the 1% that do, most won't care.", 'If Android does the same then Facebook is definitely done.', "Androids and PCs still don't give a shit about privacy. Ya'll make it look like apple is the only pony in the race.\n\nFB will hurt from this but it won't do them in", 'Check out Firefox.  They even have a Facebook Container that keeps them from following everything you do.  And they are more privacy-minded than Google.', "> Then rejecting third party cookies will seal the deal.\n\nIt's not that simple. I once tried blocking third party cookies for like a month, but it just renders so many website unusable that it's not a worthy trade-off IMO. I've ended up installing Cookie AutoDelete which IMO is a good middle ground (you don't block most cookies, but you delete them shortly after use).", 'Or our answer could be to put privacy laws and regulations in place so no matter what app it is they can’t do it.', 'People flocked to Instagram and Whatssapp before FB bought them out. It’s no that people wish to stay with FB, but FB removed the option to.', "There are pesdos on every social media. As far as they spying the data is all stored in the USA and they are just doing what Google does. Don't fall for anonymous Reddit posts", "As long as they don't come here, I don't care where those mouth-breathers end up.", '[The average revenue for Facebook per user is $7.26 USD. ](https://www.omnicoreagency.com/facebook-statistics/) If they lose the ability to have targeted advertising, they could lose half their revenue or more, it could have a devastating impact on their market cap.\n\nThe fact that each users data is worth $7.26 suggests a couple things to me:\n\n1. A lot of Facebook users wouldn\'t pay the price of Facebook to have Facebook. It\'s easier to have people pay in something they can\'t otherwise market themselves (ie, their data). A lot of people continue to use Facebook solely because it\'s there, if they all of a sudden had to pay, a lot of people would leave. Honestly, when push comes to shove, I think a majority of people would rather have Facebook collect their data and send them targeted ads rather than make them pay for it. Reddit cares a lot about privacy, but the average person cares only in as much as they say they do and they might do some small meaningless thing they think helps them. It\'s like boycotting Nestle after watching a YouTube video about how bad they are, but 2 weeks later you\'re back buying their shit cause you never cared that much actually. \n\n2. If Facebook did move to a subscription model, it would be more expensive than the current "price". \n\n3. Data and targeted advertising is super profitable. How many people are actually motivated to click on an ad on Facebook? How can advertisers possibly even make money off of this? It seems preposterous to me, but I\'m not the kind of person who clicks on ads, so maybe I just don\'t know how the average person is...', "Dude, most people don't give a shit.  Any alternative wouldn't take hold, much less a paid alternative.\n\nEdit: for the record I like your idea, I just know it wouldn't work", "Because not very people are willing to pay for social media. Why would someone pay 5 dollars a month for a Facebook clone when Facebook it's is free?\n\nThe type of person worried about privacy probably isn't on any social media to begin with, and isn't going to start paying to get on it.", 'people dont wana pay when they can get it for free. Simple as that. The avg american couldnt care less if their data is being collected. Unless someone tells them China is doing something then they care for some reason.', 'Most people simply don\'t care. How do you visualize the impact of the mass data collection that these companies perform? It\'s just not something that people see visibly impacting them. You\'d basically be selling air from their perspective.\n\nAsk any casual user why they use an iPhone. I very much doubt they\'ll say "because Apple cares about my privacy".', "People are upset because they are told to be upset. They don't actually care that facebook is selling their data... or at the very least, they have identified that the ability to use facebook outweighs their privacy concerns.", "Afaik some have tried, but short-term greed tends to have them simply end up not being used. And the key to social media / networks is exactly that you can reach everyone you ever want to reach, because 'everyone' is on them.\n\nIf you only got a couple thousand users on a pay-to-use platform, they don't actually get to use it for that concept of social networking.\n\n\nSo, there isn't any reason this wouldn't work, except that there simply still aren't enough users that would be willing to pay to make it work (or claim they are, but are then too sceptical to join in on a new company, rather want to 'wait to see how it develops', which in itself causes the company to collapse because it doesn't get enough paying users).", "Because you would pay and secretly they would still sell your data, let's be honest here.", 'The thing that keeps people tied to a social network site is the social network. If you have 500 "friends" on Facebook and only 5 on a much better competitor, you\'re not going to get much use out of that competitor. So how can a networking site expect to grow? \n\nBut it\'s harder than that.\n\nGoogle came out with Google+, an excellent social media service with everything Facebook had and more. Probably better than Facebook, period. Google was also a much bigger and more powerful company than Facebook at the time.\n\nEvery gmail user, every person with a Google account was signed up automatically. Like half a billion people.\n\nA better product, with a full feature set from the beginning, supported by one of the biggest and trusted-ish software companies in the world, *WITH A PREEXISTING USER BASE AND NETWORK*....\n\nStill failed miserably.  Maybe better marketing could have helped, but I doubt it.\n\nI had probably 40 friends on there compared to 1000 on Facebook. It\'s a pain to keep up with more than one networking site, and guess which one I kept up with.\n\nFor another year I had one friend who kept trying to get people over to Google+, but it wasn\'t going to happen.\n\nIf Google wasn\'t able to start a new social networking site despite resources that no other company will ever have, it\'s going to be really hard for another company.\n\nA new site will have to offer something new.\n\nFriendster offered the whole concept to begin with, but it was focused on static user pages.\n\nMySpace offered a whole lot more customization and made Friendster look like a Rolodex (a device that indexed contact-info cards god I\'m old).\n\nFacebook launched slowly and started out as a think people had heard of but couldn\'t get unless they were in college. It was also relatively static, and boring compared to MySpace, but it was fast and rock-solid and gradually introduced more communication and scheduling tools that worked pretty well.\n\nWhen Twitter really began to take off exponentially, Facebook quickly replaced its "Status Update" with a Twitter-like system of posts and comments on an ever-scrolling wall.\n\nThat was it. It was over. All of us monkeys got to look at each other and we haven\'t stopped. We have hundreds of connections that we would have trouble making again. On top of that, the Group and Event functions have become almost irreplaceable.\n\nIf Facebook is ever eclipsed, it will be by a company that not only offers something truly different and really useful but is able to steal entire networks of friends away from Facebook. It\'s a tall order, but nothing lasts forever.\n\nFriendster to MySpace to Facebook\n\nSears to Wal-Mart to Amazon (over a longer period).\n\nIBM still exists after more than a century because it has drastically changed - from hardware invention, installation, and high-end tech support for businesses (from typewriters to mainframes) to acting (in that space) mostly as a consultant and system integrating firm. Now one of many. \n\nThere\'s always a big player, but eventually someone figures out a new mousetrap and succeeds.', 'Chicken and egg.  Social media is useless if no ones on it.  If it’s useless no one will pay.  If nobody pays them no ones on it.  Round and round.', 'do you pay for YouTube premium or Reddit gold?', 'it\'s the "everyone is on facebook problem"', "It's not that easy. In order to to bootstrap something to compete with a giant like facebook, you need to a lot of money. No investor is going to take that risk when  Facebook style social media is slowly being replaced by things like Instragram (owned by FB), TikTok, Snapchat etc. \n\nEven if you did get it started facebook would just buy you anyways. Oh you're not willing to sell? No worries, the investors that backed you will happily sell to FB on your behalf.", 'Because very few people would be willing to pay a monthly fee for a service like facebook.\n\nOn top of that, having a barrier of entry to your social network makes it useless. \n\nNobody wants to be on a social network with nobody else on it.', "What we need is a social media standard, similar to the way websites work. Anyone can get their own website domain and hosting through thousands of companies around the globe. You own your site and can take it to another company. Most importantly anyone with a browser can see your site. They don't need to use the same company as you.\n\nSocial media so far, has been mostly the opposite. To see and interact with others, you need an account on a specific platform and you can only see other users on that platform. With the website model, we could have minimum standards that your social media profile would need, like name/handle, photo, etc, and standards for sharing photos, videos, etc. Companies like Facebook could still exist by offering to host your profile and photos, etc. But others who didn't want Facebook having all their info could host their own profile or take it somewhere else. The important thing is they would still be able to see Facebook users profiles and Facebook users could see theirs.", 'Lmao good luck trying to get me or anyone to pay $5 / month for social media', "It's amazing how miserable I felt after constantly seeing my families shitty politically opinions every day. Now I can go into conversations with them about politics without their shitty conservative memes constantly on my mind and actually try to have a reasonable conversation.", 'It changed my life. Back in school, happier than ever. Facebook was like an IV drip of poison.', "Yep 100%, I worried I'd miss out on family/friend stuff, but hasn't really affected me, maybe more post-COVID, but never going back, like you not knowing it was affecting me, I feel better overall, I feel less intruded upon privacy wise, 0 regrets, 3 months FB free, never felt better.", "Facebook is the gamification of our personal relationships. It is designed to make us feel bad and insecure so that we keep coming back for validation. It's evil.", 'Couldn’t agree more my mental health has significantly improved since I deleted FB some years ago. I didn’t even realize how much it was negatively affecting me until I got rid of it.', 'It was designed like a Skinner Box.  Look it up.', 'I deleted mine too. I always wonder if new ones get created in our names or alt names after a while to fluff up their numbers. Can totally see FB creating server farms filled with dead/fake accounts to scam their advertisers and users.', 'Reddit is just as toxic for me.', "I wish I could do this but in school ALL of the clubs events etc use Facebook. I'm even part of an organization board and told them I can make a discord or slack which wouldn't be hard AND provide real time updates to board members but they just vehemently stick by fb. It sucks", "This is really good to hear. I'm thinking about doing the same thing but I only keep it for keeping in touch with family (I left my country) and my memories of my sister. She passed away last October and I'm feeling like I'm glued to Facebook just for those two reasons. Otherwise it's so toxic that I think it'd be healthy for me to delete it. \n\nDid you have a hard time getting away from Facebook?", 'Same here, and what I was surprised with as how quickly I began to dislike other platforms as well. Instagram, Snapchat, etc. all looked like unhappy simulacrum of what social lives are supposed to be like. Reddit is great for specialized topical information as long as you know what rabbit holes to avoid, but the rest of social media just seems like a big machine that destroys souls.', 'This is my story as well. Exactly the same. Haven’t regretted getting rid of it once.', 'Funny, reddit is 10 times more toxic than Facebook.', 'Maybe this is a mexico thing but nobody post shit anymore to fb besides memes.  My greatest source of memes is fb and i dont even use it in the app, just in chrome', "Yeah, had the same experience. Actually considering deleting Reddit next, I wonder if that'd have the same effect", 'I haven’t deleted my account but I deleted the app. It was definitely affecting me in a negative way and I feel much better after deleting the app. I haven’t deleted my account because I have so many pictures and memories of my kids and events that I’d like to eventually see again. I wish they had a feature where you could download all your pictures and videos and delete your account.', 'One could argue that Reddit is just as damaging...', 'That was two years ago? Damn', 'I deleted mine too and now I spend all my time on reddit..', 'I deleted mine and now my family doesn’t talk to me (because god forbid they **call**). But is fine because I don’t like them anyway.', 'Serious question I’m going to delete my Facebook is there a way to get my pictures and stuff off it?', 'No joke. Zero negative impact. I actually reach out to family and friends more often now because their posts had become surrogates for actually keeping in touch.', 'Deactivated my account two weeks ago. Not missing it. Will go back at some point and archive all of my pics and delete it permanently soon enough.', 'Now delete reddit', 'Reddit is starting to get this way for me.', "I got rid of it when I got my new job and realised that 95% of our incoming business and customers are the people who mindlessly click our Facebook ads. It's astounding", 'I deleted fb and ig about a month ago. I’ll say I do feel a bit better but I’ve shifted all of ther screen time straight to reddit and now it’s a problem', 'Well, they *were* running [unsanctioned psychological experiments on their users](https://slate.com/technology/2014/06/facebook-unethical-experiment-it-made-news-feeds-happier-or-sadder-to-manipulate-peoples-emotions.html) to alter their moods. Might have been that.', 'I confirm. it felt like a weight was removed from my gut.', 'Yeah. It took all of 48 hours to not just realize I was better off but to basically *forget about it entirely*.', "My husband convinced me to limit my social media consumption to an hour a day and my mood got way better. I don't even use Facebook, mostly just reddit, but the constant inflow of information was stressing me out.\n\nI also have to use twitter for business promotion and every time I open the app my mood takes a dump.", 'I deleted Facebook because i made a 2019 resolution to “call out anyone I see on my timeline posting blatantly false facts or hypocrisy.” Not rudely, just call out the facts.\n\nAfter 3 months, it genuinely changed me as a human being for the worse. I had to stop and now I just deleted it. I reinstall it like once a month because I know friends might post me something and I don’t want to be rude, but that is becoming less frequent and every time I am disgusted by how bad it continues to be.', 'now i am addicted to reddit, help.', 'Too meta, bro. You old!', 'Instructions unclear. I hit a lawyer named Jim in the face with a book.', 'Welcome to the club! It’s way better here!', 'Just remember to get rid of IG and Whatsapp as well!', 'same here!! I ready the article and I was like, "i am done with this scummy company" Also deleted Instagram and plan to delete Whatsapp.', 'It’s the only app everyone in my family that’s lives in the Europe, Aus, America and Canada uses to communicate', 'Dude I was about to buy a occulus before I heard the bad news. Like within a day or two of pulling the trigger.\n\nDumb asses.', "That's a way to end up even more isolated during a lockdown. No thanks.", 'Fuck Oculus.', "Maybe try r/legaladvice for that. Depending on where you live, deleting your publicly available personal data might be a right and/or even easy if you know the process. It's worth a post at the least.\nThey say they need your ID. But that can just be standard procedure for people who don't complain. Not a lawyer.", "I'm pushing everyone I know hard to move to telegram, but WhatsApp is so ubiquitous now it just means I now have two messaging apps. One for people I've convinced and one for those I haven't.", 'Sorry to say there is no one at Facebook looking at your account. It’s all AI-driven.', 'Especially after that robot queen gave him those arm hairs. Lmao', 'Well, Data was fully functional. I wish I had that kind of game.', "His brother Lore wasn't.", 'Acts like him too', '>Datazucc\n\nThis was great.', 'Seems to be trying to "standardize" against ad-blocking, and make it easy to consistently deny content to people that ad-block. Also "do not track" v2 (probably with a nice identifier so that they can keep tracking).\n\n\n--------------\n\n    1. Consumer privacy should remain a foundational pillar of the solution by providing consumers with meaningful transparency and controls, giving the marketplace the tools to understand consumer preferences and the ability to abide by those preferences.\n    \n    2. Consumers should have access to diverse and competitive content offerings, supported by their choices to engage with digital advertising in exchange for content and services.\n    \n    3. Business operations, including ad targeting, ad delivery, frequency capping, campaign management, analytics, cross-channel deployment, optimization, and attribution should be sufficiently supported and improved upon through better technological and policy standards for all critical use cases.\n    \n    4. Solutions should be standardized and interoperable for consumers and businesses across browsers, devices, and platforms, subject to applicable privacy laws and guidelines and to the extent it is reasonably technically feasible, efficient, effective, and improved over existing technology.\n    \n    5. All browsers, devices, and platforms should allow equal access, free from unreasonable interference, to the new solutions.\n    \n    6. Companies that utilize the resulting solutions should follow industry and legal privacy standards, with strong accountability and enforcement for those that violate the standards.', 'It’d be pretty easy to do. I’ve noticed I get YouTube ads for protein powder ONLY when I am watching stuff at the gym. That would be an easy, non-personalized ad to run. “When phone’s at gym, play protein powder ads”. No need for them to ever know who has the phone. In theory, that’s how it could work.', "If you have enough information about a person to be effective with targeted advertising, you probably have enough to be able to identify them. There is no way to adequately anonymize or private that information where it's still useful. There's no middle ground solution here, and privacy needs to win.", 'You basically just described the way that it already works. Facebook isn’t out there hawking people’s personal info, they just allow companies to target specific types of people when those companies buy ads on Facebook’s platform\n\nWhen I run ads on a target audience, Facebook doesn’t tell me who those people are or give me any of their information. There’s literally no way to buy someone’s personal info from Facebook', 'My understanding is that this is blocking a system that allowed other apps to target you using facebook’s data. \n\nFor example some new shitty poker app would pay Facebook to connect your device to facebook’s data set which allowed that shitty app to micro target you.', 'What Apple has done is remove the IDFA (Identifier for Advertisers). This doesn\'t affect Facebook\'s ability to track you in any meaningful way, but rather it impacts their ability to measure the success of their advertisements. \n\nIn the old paradigm Facebook has a bunch of information on a huge population, and an app could go to them and say "I\'d like to show ads to this age/gender/location/vocation/etc demographic" and Facebook would say "ok, we\'re showing ads to those people, implement our SDK in your app and it\'ll report back to us data on who installed your app as a result of the ads you ran on Facebook." The way the SDK reported back was by sending the IDFA. So from Facebook\'s side they had a big list of IDFAs that they know they showed a given ad to, and then a list of IDFAs that installed the app. They can now measure the relative success of each ad impression, and decide who is worth showing the ad to and who isn\'t.\n\nFacebook has a ton of information on individuals that is tied to their Facebook ID. IDFA was the connective tissue that tied a given physical device to a Facebook ID (because when you signed into the Facebook app on your device, Facebook learned that your IDFA and your Facebook ID go together). Without IDFA Facebook doesn\'t know who installed based on ads they were shown. Apple is only revealing a total count of installs for a given ad campaign, but the ability to map installs to Facebook\'s demographic data and then analyze by sub-population is gone.', "IDFA was Apples middle ground to protect privacy while having a better advertising experience. Apple assigns a random ID to your phone which gets shared out, and advertisers can use that ID to track you. This ID doesn't change unless you manually change it.\n\nFor example you install an app that has ads. When the app starts the phone tells the app your IDFA. You get shown ads that match your IDFA history. You click an add and buy something. That your IDFA clicked an ad and made a purchase is data they can track. Over time you get better ads (or at least ads that match your history and behavior).\n\nThe IDFA was super important because you could be tracked accurately and ads could be super-personalised. Ads that are relevant and interesting are very high value, which means ad companies can make more money if they show ads that get more clicks and sales.\n\nWithout the IDFA the only option is to just be vague with ads. The advertising companies make less money and you get shitty ads.\n\nI think the IDFA was interesting, but it obviously wasn't going to last forever. Targeted ads are creepy and your privacy shouldn't be something to profit from. Good move from Apple.", "reddit inc is going to be so mad about this too. i think they're trying to go IPO to target more of you people. Reddit is basically a news Pinterest.\n\n If you've'nt done it yet go to Reddit setting and dissolve any settings where they can do personalized advertising. Keep those data faucets turned off", 'While he is rubbing his nipples and apologizing', 'It seems like people forget that he did in fact, STEAL the idea for Facebook. God, what an utter piece of shit. I have to wonder if it would have turned into what it is now, had the people who were stolen from, developed it themselves.', '#Zuck Fuckerberg', 'Fuck the Zuck', "Um except it does, Facebook has changed a lot of people's lives. Like my dad who cannot go back to his country of origin and was able to connect to his old class mates from the 70s, it was a life changer for him, Fb is not perfect. However, Capitalism will innovate by allowing someone else to start another platform with a better sense for privacy down the line. Another issue is allowing firms to gobble up other smaller startups as they please which is a flaw and not truly free market. \n\nFor example, why were 4 big banks allowed to NOT FAIL in 2008? There should have been 100s of banks and the ones that were irresponsible and overleveraged should have fell without an impact on the economy. Capitalism or any economic structure is not as black and white as you think.", "I mean, you joke but it's not like Facebook execs and engineers spend all of their days plotting the next way to be evil. FB Messenger has a lot more features than it did before, FB Marketplace is the Craigslist for places that don't have Craigslist and the Oculus Quest is an awesome piece of tech which breaks ground in both hardware and software and keeps getting cool features each update.\n\nFB's data practices are undoubtedly scummy but saying that they don't innovate is just false.", 'It is undeniable that Facebook and other online social platforms have been extremely innovative though.', 'now it begs to question, would people use FB if they paid monthly to use it?', 'True capitalism does, markets die because better ones take their place. But we dont have true capitalism', 'Tom was our friend', "I get where you're coming from and I'm with you on this, but theres a wide distinction between impersonating someone using a stolen identity, and collecting data about someone in order to send them targeted data later. \n\nI do think there should be some kind of a tax on data that maybe pays for socialized healthcare or higher education, and the people should have a clear and easy way to opt-out (or even just make it opt-in) but \n\nthese companies are trading you access to their services for access to your data, and each user is basically knowingly agreeing to this. Its a fair trade on the basis that each user see more value in the service than their data, and thus makes the trade. \n\nData about a person !== that person", 'Lol as long as the GOP exists there will never be regulations on these monstrosities.', "Trillion dollar company's, 'who only pay the exact amount of tax possible'. Apple are not an ethical company, just have the best PR.", "That's a bingo.", 'None, but using a rooted Android allows me the greatest control over my device - that still tracks me everywhere I go.', "That's what happens to any news that get polticized tbh. Commenters are more interested in being outraged than trying to figure out facts.", 'I did not even know about these. I have gone into disable settings on my Google account, but I did not know about this or the other mobile settings from my phone. Thank you.', "It would affect Google Ads similarly, but they haven't yet released what they're going to do about it.", "But that isn't what Apple is restricting here. Apple was sending an ID that wasn't attached to anything that could be used to identify you.\n\nThis is mostly a move to fuck with Facebook and Google's ads business, under the guise of privacy.", "I disagree with literally every point you made other than that the parent is being guilded and praised.      \n     \nImo, your forced perspective of the issue is pathetic, and it's the sort of attitude that has made this sub worse over the years. Alternatively, the parent commenter explained in detail what is actually happening and what are the likely results. That is the sort of analysis that used to be common in this sub before it became a political shitshow.      \n      \nLastly, Facebook isn't going anywhere nor are IG or WhatsApp. Too many of we reasonable people use them and enjoy them, and think people like you are hysterical rambling fools.", 'You don’t have to use Facebook', 'My mom got Instagram and suddenly my feed was full of QAnon, antivax, “patriot” shit, MAGA, and single line text picture argument things about the USA being a Christian nation. \n\nI had to mute my own mom. Prior to this my Instagram was just pictures of my friends cats, mostly.\n\nShould be noted I would mute anyone for posting political stuff on my Instagram feed. It’s just not what I use that platform for.', 'Radicalization is not inherently wrong. It just means stemming from the root.\n\nWe need radical solutions to eliminate racism (ie not superficial, but actually addressing the root of the problem).\n\nWe need to radically remove money from politics (ie removing systemic corruption).', 'Google is the same in how it sells your data, but they’re not actively spreading misinformation. Google actually advertises products to you. YouTube has some questionable sponsors, but it’s never passed off as “news”', 'i hate this whataboutism, why cant you just say both companies suck instead of saying you enjoy sucking googles dick in an online forum', "I was thinking the same thing but then realized that if you're consistent with this logic, you have to apply it to every ad agency. If you compare how they use ads on each platform, which companies have engaged in abuse and has Facebook or Google been exceptionally deceptive or abusive in their ad policies?", "I guess they don't spread misinformation or try to change your opinions", 'I\'ll "plus" that one too', "Apple doesn't need to sell data, they sell products and services.", "Your cell phone sends it's IMEI to cell phone towers 24/7 if it's on.  You are already being tracked.", 'You’re right, and that’s why I distrust Apple least among major corporations: they currently make billions by selling privacy-friend devices. If they went the Google route, there wouldn’t be much holding lots of people in their ecosystem (lots _would stay, sure, but plenty would bail on it). Apple, especially compared to Google and FB, has a huge financial incentive to double down on privacy. Because of that, they seem least likely to throw me under the bus.\n\nI wish open source alternatives with decent usability existed. I’m perfectly happy with Linux (or even FreeBSD or OpenBSD) on my desktop. But right now, today, I’ve yet to find anything that meets my requirement of “mostly works the way I want it to without requiring me to babysit it”.', "Apple sells product, not it's users.", 'That’s not quite the same, though I take your meaning.\n\nThe smart tv is not made or sold by the same provider as the paid services, so data collected by the service is independent of the price of the display. AFAIK, no streaming services use their data to serve ads outside their own platform, so its not the same.\n\nAs for the data collected by the tv, that’s why smart TVs are cheaper than dumb ones: they are subsidizing the price based on the value of your data. So since you aren’t paying full price, you are both the customer and the product.', 'Apple is a shit ton more principled than most tech companies', '> Like the initiative, not the company ...\n\nOr, more generalized\n\n"Like the action, not the person performing the action."\n\nGood people can do bad, and bad people can do good. Judge and support people based upon their current actions, **especially** faceless identities such as companys, who can actually switch directions whenever the CEO / board changes, with very little indication to the outside.\n\nAnything and anyone can do something great and deserving of your support, but then change and become a complete abonimation. Just because you supported something in the past, does not imply you must continue to support it even one moment longer than when it stops being beneficial to you.\n\n(Point in case: Blizzard. A video game publisher that started a many great franchises and was renowned for their high quality standards, and then drifted off into profit-driven destruction of those very same franchises, dubious political motions and scammy cash grabs.)', 'When a company "sells data", what that usually means is selling targeted access to its customers. Facebook isn\'t literally giving out your name/address/phone number — that\'s not useful to advertisers, and with the advent of privacy laws like GDPR could even be a liability. What they\'re doing is using your activity to associate you with profiles, and then selling access to those profiles through targeted ads. Apple doesn\'t do that because...they aren\'t an ads company.', "The enemy of your enemy is your friend, that's all.", 'They could do it ethically.  They could charge users a small fee.  They could disclose who they sell your info to.  They could offer defaulted opt-outs.  Etc.  But they don’t.  And no company is obligated to make money - nor does that need justify illegal or unethical actions.', 'The main problem isn’t that they’re selling user data to make money, it’s the lack of transparency to the user behind how they’re profiting.', "Well you'll be happy to know that Android is doing the exact same thing already.   \nBut when Android does it that doesn't warrant an article turned like an ad.  \n\nhttps://developer.android.com/about/versions/10/privacy/changes#non-resettable-device-ids", 'My fken roommate needs to see this. Im in IT and he claims a year or two Ill make the switch to Android after being a life long apple guy. I keep telling him nope never gonna happen, which It wont. No offense Android folk!', 'I switched over in 2016 and was surprised back then with their privacy settings and they’ve only gotten better', 'Thanks for the explanation. The way these apps work are just scary af!', 'Wow. You’re really ignorant to think that.\n\nDamn.', 'The fact that it is possible IS the fault of Android.\n\nThe lie is that Android is open. The truth is that it’s open to manufacturers and telcos to fuck the user over.', 'hey for what it\'s worth I absolutely never regretted deleting my facebook. Seriously I thought I\'d come crawling back with my tail behind my legs saying "yeah I actually get more good than harm from FB, being connected to everyone I meet in life and being invited to things and seeing local events and people\'s new babies and life accomplishments and political opinions is actually pretty valuable" NO NO NO\n\nAs it turns out, it\'s literally NOT worth it, and people still reach out to you via email and phone number and other people to invite you to things, and running into people is a MUCH more satisfying experience, it is SOOOO much more profoundly enriching to live a life where people tell you things about themselves in person, or directly (and frankly- not to hear about certain things at all) and for local events it connects you to sources like public radio and as quirky as it is coffee shop bulletin boards- they still exist and you still can follow a lot of local events this way!\n\nI even found out 3 years after the fact that someone I knew from HS had passed away from friends (in person!) and it floored me... I had a deep, hurtful moment in front of friends who cared about me. I think they assumed I knew, since it was posted on FB, so I don\'t think normally it would go that long without reaching me but still: even with the delay, I think it is so much more important and healthy to be told those things directly\n\nI deleted in Feb of 2017 and up until recently the impulse to type "f" in my browser bar lingered. It really illuminated to me the long lasting, addictive, impulsive effects our phones and the like have on us today- but I never actually missed FB. Seriously- my quality of life got drastically and notably better.\n\nIf you are concerned about learning about important changes, then foster connections with people and the information will come.', 'Honestly I rarely used Fb, never i stagram or WA', 'Someone also said it was so I could say "Call Bob", or something.  \n\n> At least it gives you the warning and flexibility to not agree  \n\nI agree that\'s something, especially in today\'s screw-your-privacy era. But -- and maybe I\'m a dreamer here -- why not let me use dictation but without the ability to do <whatever requires contacts info>? You know, like Android does.', 'I was being hypocritical.  Thanks tho.  That’s my point too, friend.', 'Lol my bad guys I didn’t realize it lol', 'True, but it explains why their priorities are different in many cases. It’s funny that this Facebook announcement is the best press Apple has gotten in quite a while', "Don't Samsung phones come with Facebook preinstalled? And you cant remove it?", 'The reason their stock has broken into the 2 trillion is because their starting to be viewed as a software company as well.', 'Unfortunately, this post has been removed. Facebook links are not allowed by /r/technology.\n\n*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/technology) if you have any questions or concerns.*', 'It is why I have never ventured from Apple. I refuse to pay money for a product I which all I create on said product is not owned by me. I’ll pay extra for that piece of mind and privacy. People always did when they bought an Apple product.', 'So apple doesn\'t track their users? or just "screw verge"?', 'Meh, I mean they also fired the guy', "I don't. Apple is garbage to me. But if the alternatives went the same route, that would suck. We could still head in that direction in the future.", 'point was that they aren\'t doing it out of the good of their heart so there\'s no point acting as if they are being better than facebook. "protect its customer\' privacy"\n\ndon\'t know what your reply is for.', 'Those are options, but are way more cumbersome than just using DS Get.\n\nBut nice of you in ignoring the point, there is no logical reason on apples part to do this.\n\nBesides removing the functionality of devices that I already paid for and are more than capable in doing the desired function.', 'I mean Pizza Gate is just projecting from right so why not that ^\n\nThe real problem is they know all our Data. That would make hitler’s genocide way faster, just like it could make any ideological culling in the future', 'Your business perspicacity is only surpassed by your vocabulary.  Come back when you have regained credibility.', "Apple actively goes out of their way so they don't have access to your data and it is only stored on your device locally. Which also makes your data massively more secure. It's basically the only company with a data security pipeline at all.", 'They will sell it just as FB does.', 'I think you are in for a surprise.', 'And you get 6years of updates! Typing this on my 6s with ios 13!!', 'Every everything about anything is biased.', 'Every company does this. But I’m willing to give Apple the benefit of the doubt here. Why?\n\nSecure Enclave\n\nNo other platform has this equivalent.', 'Yeah I currently have the 8 Plus. I was thinking of going Android this generation since Apple had all but abandoned fingerprint readers. But I’ve heard a rumor that they’re going to bring it back for the higher end models of this gen. Given what they’ve done to protect privacy and all, I’d say they have me sold on it', 'honestly on this fb issue i kind of do. i’ve seen a lot of people hate them. just never really payed attention as to why. probably because i hadn’t used fb for years until recently so i didn’t really care about them', "I don't think i can root my GS10+ without being banned from GPS based games.", 'Why do i have to go out of my way to do something exceptional just to protect my privacy?', '? I have neither.', "That's fair. The article wasn't clear on that.", "I still don't get it. If they want you to believe something by bombarding you with ads for it why woild they care if you are prone to believe it or not? And i just ignore any political (always do my own research )or news ad (never seen a news ad actually). So basically, I still see no downside. If a product is free to use in return for what they are taking, seems like a good deal to me.", 'screw you big Dictonary', '? I said apple will continue to do whatever they want when it comes to their own data collection', 'Once again, Apple is not doing this for ethical reasons. There is a profit motive here and in the end it’s foolish that it’s in the interest of the general population.', 'For many apps I use, I generally buy the paid-for version of an app to: a) support the devs, & b) get rid of ads.\n\nOne-time payment software has not been a satisfactory model for software for many years now. The closest you can (generally) get is a one-time payment including up to 1 year of updates and support, with an annual payment for updates and on-going support. \n\nBeyond that, just about every software now is delivered as part of a subscription. Those that do not work that way end up getting criticized for not providing support (for no money).\n\nAd-revenue is basically the same as a paid-for subscription, except it is paid for by the advertizors.', 'Yup. The Wi-Fi is always down. You eventually get on, but it’s like dial up speed for like 2 min if that.', "Man I just love being able to use my mini pocket computer however I want. I can install apps outside of the app store if I want, no root or crazy bs. I can reskin with a different distro of the OS if I don't like the flavor it came with. I can use it as a phone for free with google voice. Just a ton of things I can do with the device that **I own**. I dig that.", "How is an ad for something like you more intrusive than an ad something you don't like?", '[Argument from disgust](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wisdom_of_repugnance#:~:text=The%20wisdom%20of%20repugnance%20or,evil%20character%20of%20that%20thing.), which is pretty much what I expected. In other words, no argument at all.', "Don't necessary like ads, but if we're going to have them, I'd *much* rather have them for things I care about.", 'Damn I forgot', "Right.  ios is a whole operating system too.  Point is  Apple products are the only ones that operate on ios.   Essentially.  Iphone =ios.   Android also requires you to grant permissions to use your data is all I'm saying.", '>\tIt should be up to the user. I really don’t understand this mentality that owning a phone isn’t complete ownership\n\nCan’t be bothered. I run a Linux workstation where I pay attention to everything running on it, and tweak the configuration constantly. I earn a living on that machine, so it’s worth the effort I put in. My phone? Nah. I have no interest in putting in that kind of effort at all. I’d much rather pay someone else to do it.', 'Who do you think the app installer is?  Who clicks the install button?  You didn’t even read my comment.', '"Apple does lots of deals with those companies. Safari, the web browser that comes with every iPhone, is set up by default to route web searches through Google. For this privilege, Google reportedly paid Apple $9 billion in 2018, and as much as $12 billion this year. All those searches help funnel out enormous volumes of data on Apple’s users, from which Google extracts huge profits. Apple might not be directly responsible for the questionable use of that data by Google, but it facilitates the activity by making Google its default search engine, enriching itself substantially in the process." https://www.theatlantic.com/technology/archive/2019/01/apples-hypocritical-defense-data-privacy/581680/', '> But I can almost guarantee there was a lot of financial research done before applying these changes.\n\nI can tell you as a long time Android user, but a long, long time ago Apple user, if Tim keeps this up I might just think about switching back. That, and the lower price iPhones now are getting a very good value for money reputation.', 'What could possibly be wrong with a phone company doing something benign in order to sell more phones?', "I'm in Marketing, and the one thing i always tell people is that just because something is made to sell more product, doesn't mean it can't be a good thing. \n\nWe can do things like donate part of a product's profit to a charity. Yes it's done to increase sales, but it can also be a good thing. \n\nOf course not all things should be product sales oriented. We can also just donate money to a charity. But if we don't bother to put it in a newspaper and at least get a few extra sales, then it's most filling our fiscal responsibility to the company.\n\nThat's the nature of marketing, every activity should have the end goal of selling more product, but it doesn't mean you can't do good things along the way.", "It def will, as someone that has preferred Android for years but is also more privacy concerned, it's def making me consider swapping over to apple in the future.", 'I look at it this way - Apple met consumers demand for privacy and should be rewarded with higher sales.', "Yeah, I don't believe Apple has the same business interest in collecting and selling user analytic data (for advertising) in the same way that the Google and Facebook do. Not sure to what extent Microsoft is in that business. I'm starting to prefer Apples Walled Garden to the mess of bullshit from google. I've never had an iphone but I've decided I'm making the jump when I upgrade.", 'Make a better product = sell more units.  Works every time.  Hehe Zuck can go suck it', "They're definitely encouraging me.  Not a fan of dropping 1200 for a phone but for some God danm privacy,  I'd consider it.", "facebook is huge but they don't have as much pull as google. apple isn't hurting google too much because they need google/youtube way more than they need facebook. also google isn't too bad if you toggle your settings away from the default ones.\n\ni wonder how ok most people would be if facebook decided to pull its products off of ios. i think fb would just weaken and apple would be just fine. i don't see apple doing anything soon to tick google off.", "I've never owned an iPhone always like how android was more personalized but, Just this. After hearing the one plus Nord puts Facebook on your device  by default and how much bloat where is on other devices hearing this about apple makes me lean that way for the first time. If Google doesn't follow stride I'm likely to switch teams", 'I hate the look and feel of Apple products but this type of action definitely pushes me towards considering them if my current Android brand does something to piss me off enough.\n\n\nProtecting your customer is a damn good USP.', 'Yep. Apple has my phone purchase money for the near future. I don’t even use Facebook, but this is a massive and very brash step by Apple in order to protect privacy, and I, for one, am immensely enamored with the decision. Kudos.', 'As soon as their phones have a headphone jack, standard USB C connection and can manipulate every file type natively then I will be on board.', "I haven't had an iPhone since the 3G, and I'm to the point where I really don't care what phone I have anymore.  But I might pick up an iPhone just because I despise Facebook.", 'Sure.  Apple realised they could collect your data and sell it to facebook.', 'Everything every company does, even the illegal stuff, has a spreadsheet somewhere justifying it. \n\nAnd it’s the fact that Apple makes money selling devices rather than user data that allows them to do this. And if it pisses off Zuck, good.', '"Apple to launch a new social media service for $9.99 pm coming to all Apple devices 2021" /s', 'Remember when Steve Jobs threatened “thermonuclear war” against Google over their industrial espionage? Like Facebook, Google’s main source of revenue is data-driven advertising. I believe this path was plotted a long time ago.', 'Apple is selling a product.  To Facebook and google the user IS the product.', "Agreed. We know Apple isn't some saint. It's all to sell phones. I think if Google can do something similar with their revamped Pixel line only, it would be great for competition.", 'Definitely. Their user data protection and secure ecosystem are a major part of their marketing efforts of the last few years especially. (It’s also their position - some may say spin - on the Epic issue.)', 'I definitely switched cause of this.  Upgraded from my Lg Stylo into the iPhone pro max last week. Huge improvement and looks like I switched just in time because of the new update is adding widgets (my favorite thing about android) onto iPhones', 'Refreshing for a company to focus on selling products.', 'Eh, Apple’s been changing up MacOS and making vendors have more security in their products.. Seems to be a push for all Apple products, which is tremendous to see. Of course you can say it’s to sell products, but I’d say it’s more of Apple’s overall outlook, it’s been happening before these changes', "Everyone also neglects to mention that [Apple runs its own ad network\n](https://www.forbes.com/sites/johnkoetsier/2020/08/07/apple-ad-network-gets-special-privileges-that-facebook-google-wont-on-ios14/#5b5abecc7515) and is/will get preferential treatment to companies like Facebook and Google. Is this good for the consumer? Yes! I'm glad they're doing it. Is it altruistic? No. You're right that they considered the financial impact and I think they find that by stifling competitors they'll increase their own profits.", "I think you're mistaken. Google is not stupid, they see which way the wind is blowing. And quite frankly, there is no excuse for the kind of havoc that facebook and other apps have been allowed to wreak on either OS. Beefed up security and privacy is about the only thing of value either company can add to their smartphones. Everything else is either a tiny incremental improvement or a gimmick.", "Considering I had to go through the developer kit on my s9+ to fully remove facebook on my $1,000 phone, something most people can't or won't do, and I still get hundreds of samsung privacy violations blocked by my pi hole each day... my next phone will likely be an iPhone and I've always used android.", 'Apple has been the most consistent about protecting customer privacy.', "This. When it comes to my phone I've been an Android user for years now and honestly I'll be switching to an iPhone this year. I no longer see Google in the same light as I once did. Not exactly an apple fan, but the extra effort regarding user information security is appreciated.", 'I’ve only ever had iPhones, and I don’t agree with everything Apple does (taking a 30% cut of in-app purchases is gross), but I have zero doubt that Apple is doing this to protect users’ privacy.\n\nI think it’s actually a reverse scenario where they’re sincere in their commitment to user privacy, and they have to sell these decisions to their board.  There may be some math that says the combination of the value of consumer trust and the mitigation of risk due from leaks of private information makes it a profitable decision, but I really hope their approach becomes the new status quo.', "Honestly I hate apple products for being overly simplistic and locking you out of owning your device and customizing it... But if I were to ever get Facebook again I would only use it on the a new iPhone. I mean, I'm not getting Facebook back but if I literally had to that's what I would do.\n\nI really do hope this security, safety, and privacy comes to android.", "Apple fookin' risked it by removing the aux port, adding a notch... but Android devices followed suit, even google and Samsung.", 'This will move to consider my first iPhone ever when it comes to upgrade / replace', 'I don’t really think it takes a lot of financial research to come to the conclusion that people don’t like having their privacy invaded and over the long-term customers will be more favorable to companies which respect their privacy.', 'I am going to buy and use Apple now as a sign of support.', 'It’s because Apple makes money from hardware sales and apps, not selling customer data like Facebook and google.', 'They did it for financial reasons but as a consumer who like to think he’s informed about big purchases like iPhones, that’s the stuff I wanna see from a company. \n\nTo be honest, they’re both serving their customers. Apple customers are the users but facebooks is the advertisers.', "why wouldn't google also want to limit the same stuff and show people they're for privacy? \n\ngoogle is already banned in china isn't it?", 'The idea of companies competing by being more ethical than the other is a wet dream.', 'They didn’t cross the two $TRILLION  milestone any other way', "I've preferred Android over iOS for years, but Apples stance on privacy has started to make consider moving over.\n\nSo, they've definitely got a possible purchase here.", "Google is an advertising company\n\nFacebook's DNA is advertising and selling user information\n\nApple is hardware and software company first and foremost", '>  Im not crying "oh they\'re just try to sell more phones"\n\nBut they are certainly trying to sell more phones. That\'s a fact.', "I'm all for these changes and I hope that Google follows suit.\n\nApple can pretty much make whatever change they want and it will have pretty limited (almost insignificant) impact in comparison to the scale that changes made by Google can have.\n\nWhen Google makes a change, if not planned, thought out, and announced properly for entities and people to prepare for and adjust to, the outcome can be apocalyptic to users or industries -- scales of magnitude more significant than changes by Apple. For that reason Google often has to be much more cautious about rolling out changes.\n\nTo give you an idea. When Google makes a change, if it impacted the full audience in one of their segments, it would impact **globally**:\n\n- 85% of all smart phone users\n- 65% of all browser-based traffic\n- 73% of all online advertising\n- 86% of all online searches\n\nNo other company probably even comes close to having this much broad impact. So even if Google wants to make such changes happen, they're forced to do it at a much slower speed compared to many of their competitors.", "Of course it's to sell more phones. Why the hell would Apple act to any other end? Y'all really need to stop pretending that one of the richest companies on the planet acts out of altruism or even any semblance of concern for the customer beyond their wallet.", 'Apple have an entire advert dedicated to security and privacy. \n\nIt’s one of their selling points.', "Google will likely run into legal issues if they do it too. Apple gains strength here in that it becomes the only firm who can gather the data easily and so their data becomes more valuable, given Google's strength in marketing they can't do the same without running into antitrust issues.", "Ive only ever had Android phones.  I'll switch to Apple if they start taking security seriously  and google/Android doesn't", 'maybe so.. but as a long time android user and lover.. i have long respected apples drive for privacy and security. ITs not always about the bottom line with them.. Which you can see in tim cooks response to a group that purposefully buys stocks in corps to force their ceos to deny AGW and or reduce funding for fixing. (no seriously thats how bad republicans are, they litterally buy stocks in corps that are funding AGW studies to demand they stop using fiduciary duty as a rally cry)\n\n\ntim cook said something like "when i work to design a system to make our phones more accessible to the blind i dont fucking worry about bloody ROI.. If you want to always worry about ROI i suggest you sell your stock.', 'It will work, I dislike the apple user interface. I prefer the user freedom to install whatever the hell I wish on android. However, I will give it all up in a heartbeat to a company with higher morals. Or rather the one who chooses to do right by its customers.', 'Apple has ALWAYS been for user security and privacy and is the only company I know of that tells courts to shove it.', 'Idk.  Apple has always been at the forefront of privacy.  It’s good business practice.  If this was solely money driven they could just monetize their database and make way more than this.  They’d sell phones regardless of these changes due to brand loyalty and function, not this specific move.  \n\nThis is more of a continuation of their general data ethics, not a phone sales ploy', 'At least we get privacy, even if it’s for profit', 'Of course they are just trying to sell more phones. They saw that upping privact protections would sell more phones so they do it. I might jump ship from galaxy to iphone. Not that i use Facebook but its a good step.', 'They did it so they can corner fbs share of that 80 billion dollar market.\n\nThey did another anticompetitve action earlier this year by requiring anyone using Facebook Connect to also have to offer Apple Connect.\n\nSource: work in mobile games', "Of course - Apple can't really monetize ads without ruining the user experience (do you want mandatory ads every time you open your MacBook?) so they can afford to be privacy focused.", 'But would the reverse not be true as well? Why not?', 'If a significant part of your business isn’t driven by financial goals, then why are you running a business?', 'They’ve always taken this strict stance on privacy. Knowing fully well the customer base values it.', 'It’s almost like Apple are selling a product to the people so giving them what they want to maintain interest in their product. \n\nUnlike Facebook and Google where the people are the product being sold to businesses. All hale Capitalism.', 'I think it’s more about [growing their own ads business](https://www.forbes.com/sites/johnkoetsier/2020/08/07/apple-ad-network-gets-special-privileges-that-facebook-google-wont-on-ios14/) which already competes with Google and FB. \n\n“Apple looks to be giving its own ad network a leg up on competitors with customer data that other ad networks can’t access. In iOS 14, Apple Advertising appears to have a separate settings panel with a default-on setting. Other advertisers and ad networks on iOS, however, need to ask permission every single time.”', 'Apple wanting a 30% cut of those sales like they take from iOS devs lol', '> there was a lot of financial research done before applying these changes.\n\narmies and armies of accountants both in house and third party, this is the business strategic equivalent of starting a war, they need to know the upside. including if it effects their stock holdings.', 'That’s why they’re a good business. I put my money on apple stock. They better keep this shit up.', 'Apple cares deeply about privacy. I know that from reading cases.', 'Apple doesn\'t do it entirely to sell product, the product sells itself. \n\nThey do it because it needs to be done, they did it after 911 and when the police and feds wanted access to iPhone users information. Apple doesn\'t sell your information, it\'s Google, Facebook, and all the other companies that use it for ad revenue. \n\n\nI doubt they went into it with "a lot of financial research", I think it was a call from Tim Cook early on and it was the right call.', "Yes there was. Apple wasn't making money through Ad revenue like Facebook and Google. Plus... data.", 'Right. I laughed thinking about the idea of Google wanting to protect privacy. Maybe back in the day when they still had "Don\'t be evil" mentality but not anymore!', "Isn't that how the market is supposed to work? Apparently the consumers demand more privacy and so a company will step up and provide it. Market forces WAI.", "This. Anyone singing Apple's praises right now took the bait like a good little sardine. This isn't industry reform, it's propaganda. Apple is every bit as scummy as facebook, they just don't have the same reach.", "Apple just wants to protect it's users info from other companies who could make money from it before they do.", 'With the amount of people hating on FB (rightfully so, fuck Zuckerberg), it\'s easy to assume there is a big crowd that wants to be done with them.\n\nI\'m just sad it\'s Apple and not Google doing this.\n\nAlthough Google\'s "don\'t be evil" creed is out the window.\n\nI\'ll feel dirty buying an iPhone, but if it\'s the only way to be truly free of FB tracking, I\'ll fucking buy one.', 'I’ve had an iPhone for 6 years because I started on a family plan with my parents and they wanted an iPhone. I was considering switching to android but this honestly may be what keeps me with iPhone for a while longer.\n\nI care less about why they did it and more about it being the right thing to do, and protecting privacy/hurting Facebook is the right thing to do.', 'Nobody in this thread is talking about this aspect of it - do Apple’s own apps face the same scrutiny? Probably not. I’m sure Apple still harvests their own data from you discreetly.', 'The people who at all care about their digital privacy dont make up even 0.1% of the market, despite reddits delusions. This wont make the slightest dent in any kind of competitive way, hell most people will never even hear of it. Far more likely this is just a side effect of something else Apple is doing.', 'Apple is brave.', "Lol.. funny, they're probably gonna sell it themselves.", "That's exactly why this will never happen on Google.\n\nGoogle wants to be able to do this.\n\nIf Google uses their position as gatekeeper of Android to exclude Facebook while still allowing themselves to do it, it's pretty much a textbook antitrust violation.\n\nThe government right now might not be too interested in pursuing things like this generally, but Facebook certainly has enough money/influence to get them off their ass to look into it.", "It's also why Google can't do it. It'll result in an anti-trust case.", 'Apple only (?) has overprice products but at Facebook and Google the product is you.', "Apple and Google are more similar than you'd think.", 'Outside of they’re still collecting your data and targeting you directly, but at least you have an option to not have your accounts tracked with them. Just wish I could do that and not get bombarded with Trump and alt-right ads.', "Well,\n\n> Once these approaches have addressed the needs of users, publishers, and advertisers, and we have developed the tools to mitigate workarounds, we plan to phase out support for third-party cookies in Chrome. Our intention is to do this within two years. But we cannot get there alone, and that’s why we need the ecosystem to engage on these proposals. We plan to start the first origin trials by the end of this year, starting with conversion measurement and following with personalization.\n\nI'm glad they are looking at building an ecosystem to engage with their proposals in to give the users a little bit of privacy (while still addressing the needs of advertisers). But they could be more aggressive, IMO.", "Its just taking the tracking inhouse in formats it can control more tightly thanks to chromium's marketshare, and removing control from users.", 'You have always been able to disable them in every browser.', 'This is actually sort of doing the opposite. Apple’s stopping tracking to protect customer privacy as a PR move. Google’s stopping other companies from tracking users so its own user data is more valuable for its customers. \n\nWith Google, you are the product.', "but that's not relevant to phones at the moment is it?", "Yeah I'm glad third party cookies are going away, and it seems that google seems to be on board.", 'No, no no no. That is something completely different from the change Facebook is talking about here. Native apps could get an unique identifier for a user, facebook uses that ID to track people in native apps. Now when they want to retrieve that ID, the user gets notified. \n\nWhat you are talking about is google *finally* implementing third party cookie blocking which firefox and safari have done since 2018! It’s nothing new, they are just catching up and totally different from the changes in iOS14. \nGoogle only cares about your privacy if it’a good for PR\n\nBut hey, this is reddit so misinformation reigns supreme.', "This has nothing to do with it.\n\nCookies are a web-specific tracker. The IDFA that Apple is killing is used for mobile apps tracking.\n\nGoogle has another ID that's identical to the IDFA, but they are keeping that one and aren't planning on killing it in the short term.", 'I want to have my cake and eat it!', 'I choose no capitalist propaganda + privacy', "that's why I hope. I'm not overly optimistic about it", 'I disagree. Facebook seems worse. Facebook deserves a lot of the blame for trump getting elected. They are aware of targeted ads that contain misinformation from companies like Cambridge Analytica designed to convince moderates to vote for trump, and to convince people who would never vote for trump to not vote at all. Zuck testified in congress that they have no plans to do anything about it. Fuck em.\n\nGoogle isn’t perfect, but they are a far cry from Facebook IMO.', 'I listened to two green day songs on spotify for the first time in years a few months ago, next time I went on youtube, I had a green day video in my recommended videos.\n\nFuck kinda shit is that?', "This is incredibly wrong. Google makes its money off of Search ads, which fundamentally don't need tracking information to be successful.\n\nSource: I worked on Google Ads.", 'Get a PC and go Unix.', 'Public beta is out. I’ve been on it for a couple of weeks.', 'OP has already waited far too long on iOS 12 which has been jailbroken for ages.\n\niOS 13.5 was jailbreakable on all hardware, but is no longer being signed for new installs.\n\n13.5.1 is jailbreakable on iPhone X and below due to a bootrom exploit.\n\nCheck your device here: https://canijailbreak.com', 'I might recreate my Facebook account to benefit from this, what a great idea!', "I just left FB, WhatsApp and IG today for this very reason. So hard to do. But the anxiety of seeing alt right and racist shit in my feed everyday is just to much. They made that platform push content that is controversial to the top of news feeds. Meanwhile my art, my music and my cultural posts are never seen or liked. Done with that BS. It's propaganda, simple as that.", 'Seems appropriate: [https://imgur.com/bq0Y5Ia](https://imgur.com/bq0Y5Ia)', 'I want FB to die a death worse than MySpace', '[Facebook tested election manipulation on phillipine and got a dictator elected](https://nymag.com/intelligencer/2018/09/how-facebooks-free-internet-helped-elect-a-dictator.html)', 'The algorithm is dividing us all. Im what you would call "right wing" (right wing is Canada in much different than right wind in other countries) but all I see are what I consider "left wing) memes. Either way i only use Facebook now for messenger, reddit took over my life', 'Its not just the right. Move away from the duopoly and be actually "proggers".', 'Imagine thinking that voting China backed blue is a good step towards privacy.', 'I only have my rent money left, should I just forgo paying that and Venmo the Zuckmeister?', 'The best "democracy\\*" money can buy, baby.', '> Google is selling Apple’s data\n\nHow exactly does that work?', '"Casper... we deliver to your door. click here for an extra 20% off"', 'Of course no one ever inquired as to what *kind* of "meats" he smokes.. \n\n\n\n\n\nIt\'s people meat.', 'What are you having for Canadian Thanksgiving? Brisket and ribs I hope.', 'You speak craziness, Earth boy! More organs means more human.', "Haven't we all seen him do beach activity time, a known human leisure choice?", 'You gotta read it in C3P0s voice', 'https://youtu.be/eBxTEoseZak', 'Dear god we’re all lizards 🦎', 'This article was so sarcastic it was almost hard to gauge what the author’s true position was. But yes it does seem overtly sarcastic.', "Thanks. I think that is the first straight answer I've had. I did enjoy the sarcasm (that might be a better word than satire in this case).", "Yeah, I read the article dude. It reads like the onion but as far as I can tell, the article is coming from an actual news source. That's why I'm asking if **the quotes within the article** are legit quotes from FB. \n\nDo you want me to apologize to you for asking a simple question? Sorry not sorry.", 'It won\'t affect me much but that is "boo hoo" for a huge amount of people, if anything this benefits no one but the corporatiosn who have already established name-recognition and such. Filthy rich Zuckerberg will not really be affected despite what this article wants to distract you with (and it is distracting HARD.)\n\n If your company advertises, better start looking for another way to get the word out. \n\nThis isn\'t going to get rid of ads, this is going to get rid of why ads made things free on the internet. We\'ve created an internet that is full of ads and pretty much free to use. Smaller companies who try to get their names out by targeting people who care about their niche products will now be far less effective and will lose a lot of business to the established big names. Big names won\'t wan to lose any of their expected profits so they\'ll probably force paid accounts, Youtube could easily do that and come out making more money because we "need"  Youtube.\n\nThis article is too distracted by insane jokes about Facebook to discuss what\'s actually going to happen and I think they are doing that on purpose. It pays off to create a figure that people purely hate because then you can make bad decisions under the universally supported guise of hurting that person. Zuck is that person, we are who will actually be affected.\n\nI imagine people will realizes that the advertising path is actually superior to each website having its own monthly fees to support themselves. But we\'ll have to wait and see.', 'You\'re totally wrong. How do you even make such an incorrect statement like this without at least stopping for a second to think "maybe I should fact check this bs im about spew"?\n\nRidiculous.', "This is blatantly false, it's a direct quote from the author of the article. My source is literally the OP, where's yours?", 'Reddit is the most ironically named site ever', 'Okay, I\'ll be more direct. There are plenty of people who will read this quote and misatribute it to Facebook due to the headline. When pulling a satirical quote from an opinion article I believe users should also attribute their quote rather than just repeating the quip and adding "lol".', 'But it doesn’t require users to do anything but use iOS14 so it doesn’t matter if users don’t care as long as the use iOS14 and iOS14 cockblocks a significant source of revenue for fb', 'And a good 80% of the ones who do notice and care will think that they can fix it by reposting a meme with a bunch of faux-legalese garbage on it forbidding Facebook from using their personal data.', 'concur, its like talking to a brick wall trying to convince the people in my life they should be concerned about their privacy', 'All the people who look at their iphone will get popups telling them what kind of data facebook is harvesting. If an app accesses the mic or the camera, a icon pops up. People will find out, especially if their friends start posting "My iphone says the facebook app collects all this data about me?! IS THIS TRUE?".', "Doesn't, matter most people use fb on their phones by my guess and if phones start auto blocking fb it's a nail in Facebooks coffin, hopefully twitter as well, like people don't get how bug mobile is, a you tuber I watch who's god a decent following said about 85% to 90% of people watch his stuff on mobile, and those are full length videos not just idle scrolling", "plenty of us have walked away from Facebook and never logged in again. there are some who never created a Facebook profile.  just because something exists and is convenient, doesn't mean you have to give it permission to abuse you.", 'People said that exact same thing about Yahoo. \n\n“Too big to fail”\n\n“Too popular to fail”', "My knowledge, even though you are wrong about it, has nothing to do with my previous statement. We need a new way to work things and just because it isn't optimal right now, and even seems evil, it doesn't mean it can never be so.", '>You seem to not understand how deeply entrenched xxx is in a plethora of online services. They will be sticking around for life.\n\nDon\'t forget to visit AOL keyword "haha" for more *kids say the darnedest things*', "I wish more people would use Firefox.  I was shocked to find out it's only a single digit percentage of market share, I forget the number like 4% or something.  Chrome for whatever reason just blew up in popularity. \n\nFirefox is actually doing a lot for privacy, but it just seems people don't care.", 'Never could figure out the container thing...  Still use firefox tho.', "This is the way Chrome and Firefox operate in Private Browsing mode. Cntrl+Shift+N and you're good to go for that session. Cookies disappear when you close the browser.", 'That would be in the peoples interest. And not like corporations "people" but like "people" people. So not gonna happen.', "Exactly. We need to demand our freedom. No one's gonna do it for us.", "I'm still surprised that the US hasn't reviewed and implemented a version of EU GDPR rules to protect citizens. Most tech companies have already done the work to comply....but 'Merica.  \n\nhttps://www.techrepublic.com/article/the-eu-general-data-protection-regulation-gdpr-the-smart-persons-guide/", 'Whatsapp yes, but Instagram really blossomed after the acquisition: \n>Instagram had just 30 million users when it was bought two years after its 2010 launch. Today the photo-sharing app has more than 400 million users, eclipsing even Twitter. \n[Source: Time](https://time.com/4299297/instagram-facebook-revenue/)', '> People flocked to Instagram and Whatssapp before FB bought them out\n\nmisread that as\n\n> People flocked to Instagram and Whatssapp before FBI bought them out\n\nand I was like "well thats certainly a new approach to spying on your own citizens"', 'Happy cake day!', 'The problem is that the "mouth-breathers" vote!', 'Yep, that’s me. I literally don’t give a shit about tech companies taking my data. I’ve been in software engineering and Big Data for over 10 years, so maybe I’m just used to  the idea, but it is just completely irrelevant to me.', 'I’d personally be willing to pay for the privacy. I like that I have an easy route to communicate with mostly anyone I know, but I don’t particularly care that they (Facebook) reach their hands into everything I do. It’d have a tough time gaining traction for sure, especially since everyone is already on a free platform. But I think if people really understood what it meant, they’d be willing to give it a shot.', 'For just $5 a month you can see political hot takes from your former high school classmates, vacation photos from someone who went to Europe for the first time, and family photos from those people who probably are on their 6th kid.', 'Id revise that to say "The avg american doesn\'t understand what is means when their data is collected".  Ignorance is bliss as they say.', 'See, I think people care more than they let on. I would be curious to see, maybe in a poll, if people would change to another platform for a low fee and it meant their data was secure from preying companies. Maybe you’re right, but I feel like the opportunity is there.', 'You show them a picture of Donald Trump.', 'all the biggest problems in tech on the internet are "Bootstrap" problems.\n\nA similar thing happened with Uber. For Uber to be successful, they basically had to ignore every city-county-state-country regulatory authority and just demonstrate to the consumer that people were available to drive them around, bypassing the Taxi system.\n\nUber would not exist if they actually had to legally register themselves as a Taxi, purely from the number of regulatory districts they crossed and the thousands of pages of legal doctrine they\'d need to comply with. They\'re basically globalizing or standardizing Taxi regulations just by skirting them.\n\nFacebook managed to kill all the competitors because the whole crop of social media platforms at the time, it was decent enough to not scare grandma.\n\nOnce grandma was in, everyone else had to shut down or be bought out. Imagine trying to teach grandma to use instagram or grindr or tinder, or whatever.\n\nSpace might open up in a decade once Grandma is dead and a new generation has more bandwidth for platforms.', 'I appreciate the thoughtful response and your ultimate point is what I guess I’m really getting at. I hope that whatever future titan rises gives us the opportunity to pay in rather than surrender information that we don’t really know what’s going with it. \n\nYour point with Google is really solid too. I know they’re kind of known for abandoning their products but something as simple as a social network should have been an easy win (but that clearly wasn’t the case since it’s not around anymore).', 'I don’t, but paying a premium on either of those doesn’t prevent data from being collected and sold. So it’s not really comparing apples to apples.', 'It was a hypothetical question, you don’t have to feel personally attacked by it', "I don't think you know how advertising works or how the data collected is actually used", 'While I\'m not at the "delete Facebook" state yet it\'s been quite depressing seeing my uncle and aunts slide from being slightly right of centre to outright luancy', 'Same, now i dont have to see all the kids learning liberal propaganda in school', "It depends on how you curated your feed. For people who had it for a long time and used it heavily, it got filled with friends, acquaintances, family, and liked pages. Which sounds good, until you realize you dont want to see anything the majority of those people/pages post. Most people didnt bother hiding anything, they just ignored it, but eventually the whole feed become filled with stuff they wanted to ignore. That's why people who dont want to completely give up Facebook will just make a whole new profile. It's easier to control if you maintain it from the start. Or just delete it and move on.", 'In my own case, deleting FB, Instagram, and Messenger from my phone greatly reduced the amount of time I spent thinking about any of it.  I hadn’t realized until they were gone how much time I spent checking up on stuff that just doesn’t matter.  \n\nNow I pop in once a day on my desktop browser, and that’s plenty.  \n\nAlso, not receiving any notifications anymore is great.  (Yes, of course you can turn off notifications—but then there’s the fear of missing out.) \n\nAlso also, I don’t worry about those three apps leaking my phone’s data anymore.', 'I have to 100% agree with you man. I hear all this “toxic” talk about Facebook but I feel like they’re the ones that get themselves in the mess. My feed is pretty normal, a bit spammy, but never anything negative!', 'On facebook mobile, it force-feeds you shit you don\'t want to see from various users, pages, and groups that you aren\'t even following. \n  \nA lot of it lately being right wing propaganda, rageporn, and "owning" libs.    \n\nI believe on the web version it only shows you what you\'re following. Also, it sound like you have a limited amount of friends-relatives that post a lot, where as other people have associates that post all day.', 'it\'s a mixture of multiple factors that have a negative effect on people\'s mental health. FOMO, comparing their lives, getting sick of politics from every single person, the constant drips of dopamine from scrolling the dankest memes and so on and so forth. \n\n\n\nThe problem is that the individual hasn\'t evolved to properly manage social media. interacting on social media hits the same receptors that we get from being around others in person. So when you\'re on your social media your brain is telling you "we got our human interaction that we crave, we good for now". When in reality you\'re just creating an environment that promotes isolation and echo-chambers.', "I have filtered out everyone that isn't an animal shelter I happened to follow.  Now I just see feel good stories about people donating to help pets in need.", 'I have like 50 friends on FB: family, actual real friends, teachers and professors i really liked, and a few people from high school I like to keep up with once or twice a year. \n\nIts pretty peaceful, not gunna lie.', 'The real problem is with groups on Facebook. Individual feeds are usually people you like and talk to. In say a community group for a town, that is a shit show of ignorance and hate.', "Maybe you're getting lucky. Because all normal, rational people have left FB only the passionate must-share-this people are left. The algorithm is also promoting them when other people engage with them regardless of the crazy.\n\nI don't have a choice as the monopoly they have has made it impossible to reach my customers online without it.  They know that. I am also a sucker asking the people I know why they are sharing mean, hurtful things. Or why they are sharing Qanon unironically. So I switch out of my business account to ask them as a friend. I regret it every time.", "My issue is less with the content (though it's a massive problem) and more with what Facebook does with my data, which is why I dumped them.\n\nIt's also why I run a PiHole/Privacy Badger and do everything in my power to block their tracking pixels.\n\nI also left after Cambridge.", 'Not sure of your age but it reminds me of my friends IG feeds that are full of memes and other things because they don\'t follow that many people they know in real life.\n\nMy FB feed was almost ONLY people I knew in real life, no memes, news, etc because that is how the site used to run. Accounts used to be removed for not having enough people approve your account. You used to pick what school you went to, then you would need a minimum number of people to verify that you go to the college, or else you would get removed from the network. \n\nSo when I log in, all I see is people that I know, so all of the shitty posts are by someone I have met. So I would see the same content they are seeing, and then they are sharing that content with their own commentary on it like how "this is why black lives matter is fucking stupid!!!!!! stupid n****** will never learn!!!" or "if you don\'t like the police don\'t call them moron lol hope you don\'t need the cops if you hate them so much" etc. Its so demoralizing to see that half of my graduating class is a racist, a homophobe, or something else awful.', "I feel the same way about Twitter. I've mostly got comic book artists, comedians, and friends. A few celebrities too, but I just stay out their comment sections, like Jameela Jamil.. fuck everyone who talks to her. They fucking hate her for just existing. But I like her posts.", 'I got sick of political posts ... left /right .. everything ... I had to unfollow the sports teams I follow , because everything turned political ... then I had to unfollow hunting /fishing sites because those turned political .. buy/sell pages turned political ... I got sick of it', 'I just use it for calendars and events. Birthdays. It’s great that way. But just glancing at twitter makes me feel mentally ill. I think I rather would delete Twitter.', 'Mine was mostly Marines I served with. Was an easy way to meet up and catch up. Then they became super alt-right, completely racist and xenophobic and then my feed was littered with anti-vaxx memes, pro trump anti black pictures and everyone being a patriot waiting for the big war so they could use their guns. \n\n\nIt wasn\'t worth the headache. I feel ashamed to have been so closely associated with most of my "friends" list.', 'No. You’re using it right.  \nThere’s two major issues with Facebook that made me leave it after years around 2012, and have gotten exponentially worse since.    \n1) Your information feed is dominated by the needy and noisy.  If 95% people post twice a day or less, there will be that 5% that posts 20x a day and engages in likes and conversations constantly. The more friends you have, the more super-posters there will be, and after a certain point, perhaps 200 people, the super-posters completely drown out everyone else.    \nFacebook gives equal weight to a photo from your brother in Thailand and “Jessica commented “OMG HOW CUTE!!” on Brian’s post”.... and there’s going to be a whole lot more of the latter.    So it basically goes to shit when you have too many friends, and Facebook doesn’t care. The super-posters are driving controversy and engagement from others.    \n2) Facebook stopped being a place to share your photos and chat with friends and because a platform to share outside links and outside media. Many people don’t remember it any other way, but for the first 5-10 years, Facebook was just YOUR content. Just photos, videos, chatting, and occasional HTML links to something you wanted to share.  Once it because a platform for OTHER content to be posted and distributed, it went to shit fast.  The noisy super-posters you can just block, but this problem was a fundamental change in the machine that was there to stay. Almost overnight your “news feed” went from just your friends to ads, articles, clickbait, and memes.  It was at this point where I bailed out. I was there to stay in touch with my friends, but Facebook had become a cheap tabloid instead.      \nI have group texts with people where I share videos and entertaining and silly crap that I find on the internet, (like an old person) and it’s so much more peaceful and controlled.', 'friends family and people from school/child hood all constantly only posting that good things in their lives.  Soon you’ll feel like a failure.', 'Sounds like you’re using it right lol', 'I’ve found myself in a constant state of fact checking because people share the most inaccurate information about anything. It is disgusting', 'They seem to be pushing lot of news stuff and auto generated content now (ex: posts not actually done by friends).  Seeing the world around you crumble can start to affect mental health.  Then there is all the political crap too.', "Probably bc you don't know many people and your feed is just shit you liked. \n\nKnow more people.", 'First of all the feed is just not chronological, and you don’t have much control over your feed apart from unfollowing every time you see something you don’t like.', 'You’re not the only one! Facebook is shitty as fuck but having genuine friends is better than the toxicity off reddit at times.', 'For me it was all the fuckers telling me that my patients dying of covid were all faking it', 'Haha - you’re using it right. \n\nI haven’t been on Facebook in years. I had thousands of friends on Facebook because I was in college at a fairly early university to get it. So I went through my entire adult life connecting in Facebook with people I knew, I didn’t know, people I met once. An old boss, some friends of friends that I hung out with when I went to see a buddy in Albany. Etc etc etc.\n\nI also was in a ton of groups because they were funny at first, but then it became kind of overwhelming. \n\nSo I ended up in a position where I was seeing a ton of garbage from people I didn’t know or care about, and would react to it. \n\nMaybe people should heavily curate their feeds.', "No. It's a psychological thing. Seeing people brag about their daily lives, over exaggerating things that probably never happened to make them seem superior. Then you compare it to your life and get depressed or want to one up them. Just an example but that's basically what they mean by toxic. Removing it is one less bullshit thing on your mind which doesnt even matter in the first place. Social media is weird like that.", "My FB feed is full of cats and cute animals from all of the groups I follow.\n\nMy reddit and imgur feeds are the same. It's just the way I like it.", "Same, my facebook feed is full of memes from witty pages, occasional photo of a few friends, and lot's of pokemon / mtg post from my favorite groups.\n\nAlso, love the group discussions, it's like the good old msn groups from the 90s", 'You are severely failing to grasp the depth and gravity of the situation with Facebook.  You really need to go watch “The Great Hack” documentary on Netflix.  Facebook is a data pilfering and misinformation advertising platform that is/can be (and has been) used for manipulating the masses at an incredibly incredibly alarming very large scale.  Including specific/targeted and precise manipulation of political opinion.', "I'm the same way. Don't get me wrong - I despise Facebook and everything it represents - but I control who I see and who I respond to, and quite happily unfriend people who piss me off. To be honest, these days I find it rather boring. Twitter, on the other hand, is a cesspool of hilarious toxicity.", "When I look at my feed, I see a post from one of my friends.  It's politicized and controversial.  \n\nWhen I look at my friend's feed that made the post, he has nearly 100 other posts that I have not seen.  They are all comic book artists, video games, and the occasional photo. \n\nOut of 100 other posts, why does Facebook insist on showing me what is unquestionably the most controversial post he's made?  It didn't receive a lot of comments or likes.  There is no reason for it to have stood out and be posted on my feed.  Yet it was.\n\nYou can sort by 'top stories' or 'most recent'.  They should change it to what it really is - 'most controversial' or 'most recent'.", "Same here. I also don't get how often are these people just scrolling through Facebook. I seriously just don't see the appeal. What's the point? I just use it because I have to due to work, but there's nothing interesting going on otherwise. If something important happens in my friends' life, I find it out through them, not Facebook. People see the same shit over and over again, keep complaining about it but just... keep using it? And they usually complain that this has been going on for months. Like, how long does it take to realize?", 'Most of these tech redditors thinking FB is strictly a social network for their IRL family, friends and acquaintances. As someone who uses FB mostly for community and memes, I feel sorry for them.', 'You’re not wrong. I use Facebook and I use it for the most basic stuff possible: Just keeping up with friends and family, especially from areas that I moved away from. \n\nI see engagements, baby pictures, life updates, etc., etc. Right now I’m following updates from friends who are in the path of the hurricane. \n\nNothing is “toxic.”\n\nOccasionally I’ll see some extended family member going on some *insane* political rant. I just scroll right on by... haha. \n\nThat being said, many people can’t resist engaging in argumentative comment threads on Facebook. To them, that’s a central part of what Facebook is. These people feel better when they delete their Facebook account. I don’t know what to say about that. Whatever works for people I guess.', 'I primarily use it for groups as well. It’s actually a neat tool for that kind of thing, and a little less of an echo chamber that some small subreddits are. Not that the behavior isn’t there, just less of it for hobbies. You know, the one brand/product/advice that is the ONLY CORRECT WAY is some subreddits.', 'For me it’s usually people rationalizing police violence and dismissal of protests. I have been deleting people that are posting the memes about “WHY ARE YOU IN THE STREETS FOR GEORGE FLOYD AND NOT FOR CANNON HINNANT??”\n\nOne was a shocking murder that had nothing to do with police, but it was a murder involving a black person and a white person so they’re the same thing right?!', "That's not the point. Even if you have a positive feed, your screentime is monetized to perpetuate the toxicity that is happening elsewhere. It is your moral duty to stop using it.", 'This sounds very much like victim blaming. It’s their fault their feed is full of toxic stuff right? Because they’re asking for toxic stuff or behaving in a way that attracts toxic stuff. It can’t be because the platform is wrong. Seriously replace ‘toxic stuff’ with rape and read it again.', 'Oh I know, it’s been something I’ve contemplated for a while now. Basically since I deleted Tik Tok due to the spyware shit, I realized FB should be gone too. Just took me a few weeks to pull trigger, this Kenosha Militia page shit was the last straw. Not supporting an app that glorifies and enables domestic terrorism. Not to mention the stolen data stuff obviously.', 'We’ve got blackjack and prostitutes!', 'Don’t have WhatsApp. IG will be tough, maybe I’ll get there one day. I have my microphone and camera access turned off for that in settings at least.', "Man, if only it didn't take four years in school to learn how to tap your phone screen three times to download one of the myriad options available to connect with family and friends.\n\nLike. If I could just download an app, like telegram, and could do it with three taps on my phone, I wouldn't NEED to be locked into Facebook.\n\nThey should make communications apps easy to download so I could get off Facebook, but who can do all that complicated calculus involved in downloading and opening them?", "How do I delete my oculus quest it won't disappear???!??!!????", "I believe that's insufficient.\n\nThe effective tools I've seen go in and edit all the things to useless information.\n\nbut regardless, just editing the UI data won't rid it from Facebook's system.", 'Have you heard of the Boston marathon bomber and Reddit? And Reddit’s censorship across different subs? How about Reddit will only take action on subreddits only when news sites call them out.  Others things aren’t coming to mind, but I’ve learned long ago that Reddit isn’t perfect. They’ve got their own agenda with users too.', "Believe me, I've tried. But a FB account seems like the only thing we all have in common unfortunately.", 'Such as?', 'Not you but there’s a ton of people who talk shit about Facebook on Instagram.', 'I can only "deactivate" it, but I can\'t actually delete it.', 'Why not add that to your original comment?', " even the Ai is corrupt and not to be trusted either because [They had to shut down some for talking in a secret language to each other](https://www-forbes-com.cdn.ampproject.org/v/s/www.forbes.com/sites/tonybradley/2017/07/31/facebook-ai-creates-its-own-language-in-creepy-preview-of-our-potential-future/amp/?amp_js_v=a3&amp_gsa=1&usqp=mq331AQFKAGwASA%3D#aoh=15985478284899&referrer=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.google.com&amp_tf=From%20%251%24s&ampshare=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.forbes.com%2Fsites%2Ftonybradley%2F2017%2F07%2F31%2Ffacebook-ai-creates-its-own-language-in-creepy-preview-of-our-potential-future%2F) which is really freaky knowing Zuckerberg doesn't see any problems with hasty AI development or the threat it truly poses", 'We are the Zuckerborg.  Lower your VPNs and surrender your personal data.  We will sell your private and personal data for massive profits.  Your culture will adapt as we see fit.  Resistance is futile.', 'But did Data ever smoke any meats? Point Zucc.', '>All browsers, devices, and platforms should allow equal access, free from unreasonable interference, to the new solutions.\n\nThe second I saw that line, my first thought was "Ah, you mean like those pesky users who install software that interferes with your advertisements?"', "This is untrue. Anonymized data can be targeted for ads without many data points, and there's many ways to protect data from being shared in anyway that allows it to be mined and cross referenced. There are many middle ground solutions to data privacy and usefulness of targeting systems.           \n          \nFurther, most advertisers don't care who you are; they just want to show what they're selling to people who might buy it.     \n      \nAll that said, I still fully agree with you that users should control their own privacy and that the stictest privacy options should be on by default.", "Yes, Facebook is still collecting data on you through its own app. The update requires you to explicitly opt-in for them to be able to link it with your device's advertising ID so that third party apps are able to utilize facebook's data to target ads.", "That, and more restrictions on actual data collection. When facebook has to ask, a lot more people say no (vs forgetting about it), so their large database gets stale a lot quicker and loses value.\n\nCombined with facebook storing some data that the poker app uses to identify users for facebook, and said app not getting to use that, it hurts them a good amount, especially among users that primarily use their phones to access it (probably a good chunk of them).\n\nI don't like apple, I feel they have terrible business practices otherwise, but damn, I love what they're doing here.", 'Not really; FB advertising is fairly automatic from an advertiser perspective (pre apple change).  In the poker app example : You could say get me users that will spend 100K on my ads, and I will give you 50K for those running ads.  \n\nThis just makes doing that more difficult. Advertisers will only be able to say I will give you 50K for these 10K installs of my app.  Then have to hope those installs end up paying down the line.  Large advertisers with their previous data, will just find the average CVR and ARPDAU and get along fine.  Just will take longer for new startup games to get started. \n\n\nSource - I used to work in app marketing awhile ago.', 'It\'s a bit more detailed than that - shitty new poker app pays Facebook to find new users who might like the poker app, so they can advertise the app to them. Facebook, with the help of a common identifier known as the IDFA, will be able to look at your activity across multiple other apps (which have agreed to share your activity with Facebook and got you to agree to it when you downloaded their app). Using your activity data across these multiple apps, Facebook is able to sort of build your profile and identify whether you are the type of person who would download and play a poker game. Finally, through it\'s ad network, the next time you are on a blog site that uses facebooks "Audience network" to show ads on the blog, you\'ll see a poker app ad. \n\n\nGoogle also functions very similarly. \n\n\nWith Apples new update, the "multiple other apps" need to ask your permission before sharing that common identifier.  So both Google and any other advertiser out there that relies on this is getting shafted. BUT, blogs are still gonna need the ad revenue to survive, so they\'ll not stop having ads on the site!! So where before, you got ads that would\'ve actually been relevant to you, you are getting pointless ads. \n\n\nSource: I work in digital marketing tech.', 'Not that it matters in many cases, because many of those apps use Facebook Connect for log in, and this gives them the ability to perform this linking without using the advertising id.', 'Yes, this is the only correct answer in this thread.', "They don't like his shtoyle", 'I didn’t know lizards had nipples!', 'The difference between having an idea and building a product is a few billion dollars. And you can take that to the bank.', "It'd probably be way worse, fail, and something else would come along and do it better - and that would be the social media platform we'd be using today.\n\nThere are few timelines where we get someone who is equal or worse than Zucc sitting at the top.\n\nEdit: You can downvote me, but it's my position that Facebook succeeded because of Zuckerberg and his amoral cutthroat approach to getting his vision realised and getting people onto Facebook. A better person can't bring that to the table, and if a better person had made Facebook then I don't think they could have made it work in the way Zucc did.", '> but saying that they don\'t innovate is just false.\n\nI don\'t think he said that. He specifically remarked "innovation is invariably good" (in sarcasm, of course).\n\nWhich doesn\'t equate to him saying they don\'t innovate, he\'s saying that they don\'t innovate for ethical motives, or in ways that primarily benefit their customers.\n\nAlbeit I see that it\'s maybe a bit of a grey point, because of course any business will only ever \'innovate\' to create a more interesting product that attracts more revenue... that much fair, the only issue comes when that innovation comes alongside a priorization of greed over ethics.', 'Don’t think too hard about the post you replied to, it’s just some moron LARPing as a communist. Reddit is lousy with those.', "Oculus was bought out by them. They didn't do shit to it except make you login to Facebook so they can steal more data. I'll give them credit for messenger and market place though", 'I think you miss the point. \n\nAll those features you mention have a sole bad intentioned purpose, to further track users in order to further exploit your data for profit. \n\nIt\'s naive to think they do it for a "good cause"', 'Don’t entirely agree with you about the innovation point that you’re making.\n\nFb Marketplace is a copy of Craigslist.\nOculus is a copy of multiple other VR devices.\nDo I even need to elaborate on messenger?\n\nThese are just examples of FBs own flavor of already available services/devices. Are they truly innovative? I’d say no. Yes, I realize that most innovative products take influence from other existing products but the stuff that you mentioned are just blatant copies. Insta stories? Fb makes stories. The list goes on. Not to mention that each of these offers marginal improvements over the the previously existing product. \n\nSo I think it’s accurate to say they make their own flavors of products, not that they are actually innovating.\n\nEdit: Was wrong about Oculus copying others. They truly were the first modern day VR provider. That said, Oculus wasn’t started at Fb. They were acquired in 2014 by Fb after already launching a successful kickstarter in 2012 and being eyed by other big companies. Does that make Fb innovative? Paying money for an idea that has already been tested and proof of concepted? I’d say no.', 'The dems want to regulate Big Tech with things like hate speech laws, in effect to create a permanent Dem majority.', "You don't engage with any point I made because you can't. You know what I say is true. Facebook has spread disinformation about COVID faster than any other media. It has made the anti-vaxx movement grow. Outside the U.S. it has led to genocidal movements.\n\nI'm not hysterical, you're burying your head in the sand.", "You don't say.", 'Google is "neutral" for privacy. They collect it, and quite a lot, but they\'re not that bad. They don\'t give it directly to anyone, instead the data that they collect is used in Google Ads, which nobody else has direct access to.\n\nApple is lawful neutral. They fine.\n\nFacebook is pure chaotic evil.', "No, Facebook and Google have never pretended they aren't collecting your data. Anyone who is cognizant enough to care about their data being collected should be fully aware it's being collected.\n\nPeople are so weird about these things. They want free products, but they don't want to pay in non-monetary ways. Or they don't understand that most people don't care enough about their privacy to pay for a Facebook clone.", 'I was a child when Nexopia and MySpace was a thing, and a teen when Facebook was a thing. Then Instagram and Snapchat and somehow people still use the last 3. Some serious longevity compared to other social networks but I actually don’t know when people stopped using myspace', "Just checked mine since I was curious and have logged in in about 2 years.\n\nFor me it's about 2 people posting every day and then nobody else.", "You can't survive without some sort of revenue model on that scale, though. Your server costs are going to be immense.\n\nEven if you have the backing of a big company, it'd still be dumb to just keep pumping money into something that won't turn a profit. That's why most apps turn to ads sooner or later.", '> I think one of the best app "face lifts" that have happened in past sometime has to be reddit. Aesthetic and amazing!\n\nAre we using the same website? New Reddit is by far the worst and clunkiest website redesign in recent history. They tried to de-anonymize accounts, they added useless messaging which is just useful for spammers, and they completely destroyed the mobile website - no infinite scrolling, constant "Reddit made an oopsie" errors that force you to reload and lose the session and the "Use our app" spammy popups that make me want to use their app even less.\n\nMeanwhile old.reddit.com is efficient, works with barely any Javascript and has comment chains that don\'t hide "irrelevant" posts, while also allowing for neat subreddit-specific CSS customization.', "That's not how public corporations work.\n\nYou don't *need* to make more money to survive when you're the most valuable publicly traded corporation in the world. Of course not.\n\nBut shareholders will always pressure executives into generating more revenue. That's just how it works.\n\nI'm not saying apple will do it for sure - I'm saying they could, and you shouldn't trust that they won't.", "They dont need to fight repairs or force upgrades or sell terrible overpriced services that dont do what's promised either. But they like to, because money.", 'They also sell ads on various products and stores... and they are exempt from these changes.', "Exactly. They lock you into their ecosystem and force you to buy more expensive hardware that their products can't function without. It's not consumer friendly but it makes them money. \n\nThe idea that their privacy policy is based on caring about the consumer and not just marketing is laughable. Privacy is a good reason to go with one product over another, but let's not pretend a company like apple is just trying to do the right thing.", 'The point is that Apple could decide in a few years that they sell products, services AND your data. \n\nThey’re great now for privacy but there’s no guaranty they’ll be forever.', 'What a premature, naive and ignorant mindset...', 'Right now. And probably for a long time.\n\nBut them selling data is not an impossibility. If shareholders require growth and more revenue, it is possible.', "I'm not comparing a smart tv to streaming services. I'm just listing things I pay for that also collect and potentially sell my information.\nAnd smart TVs aren't cheaper than dumb ones. Dumb ones have just been phased out. Any that are left are just niche products and those are always more expensive.", 'They are smart about which sides they choose while making a profit at the same time. It is like them not giving you the power brick for the next iphone because it is bad for the environment, which is true.', 'Large corporations are not principled.\n\nTheir interests just sometimes align with those of the consumer. But this is in no way a guarantee.\n\nWhat do you think about Apple repressing independent repair ?', "It's easier to be principled when it doesn't interfere with your revenue.", 'No, they\'re not. They\'re just pulling this privacy value stunt at the right time. They have been a vindictive shitty corporation for a lot longer than they "cared".', 'Wasn’t that due to their acquisition by Activision?', 'So naive. \n\nhttps://www.thewrap.com/apple-lawsuit-user-data-itunes/', ">And no company is obligated to make money\n\nHahahaha.  Don't get me wrong, I hate facebook, but every company is obligated to make money.  Otherwise there is no company and no innovation.", 'I know.  Whatever happens, the users will always be the product being sold, but there are better ways of going about it.\n\nI think they underestimate what people are willing to give up just to use Facebook for free...\n\nFor some people it’s just as essential as electricity.\n\nIf they were honest and asked for permission I bet a lot of people would click OK anyway.\n\nIt’s probably all in the EULA and privacy policy but no one reads them cause if we did we’d spend more time reading EULAs than sleeping.', "Because Google doesn't really give a shit about your privacy and are doing the exact same thing. They sell your data just as much as Facebook does. That the reason they don't get a article because they're just as much selling your data.", "Yeah, Back when I had the time to tinker with Android it was great. Now it just feels like an unmanageable mess somehow. But then again, iOS is kind of cumbersome to use. I have an iPhone for work and some things are just very frustrating. \n\nI'm still considering making the move for mobile devices at least. I kinda like their tablet approach. Android tablets are useless.", 'I hear and agree with everything you said. Even the dang “f” in the browser. \nI also deleted the browser.', '> Someone also said it was so I could say “Call Bob”\n\nThat is for Siri usage, not dictation. Dictation transforms your speech into text.\n\n> why not let me use dictation but without the ability to do <whatever requires contacts info>\n\nYeah, I’m also looking forward for such policies to become the status quo...the current approach is on a “take it or leave it” basis, which I don’t really agree with\n\nDidn’t know Android lets you use dictation without giving it certain rights. Good to know!', 'People sadly see things from one angle too often.\n\nApple is definitely the best for privacy right now – on the other hand, they are hostile to user choice and repressive towards independent repair.\n\nOne company is not always good or always bad – being a fan of a company is a stupid idea in my opinion.', 'I guess but  you can disable it  From settlings. Or you can uninstall it if device is rooted.', 'I’m similar. Those reasons you stated and the fact my 2011 MacBook just keeps working great. Like 10 years almost? \n\nI used to have Samsung laptops and they would get 3 years max. I drop my shit alll the time.', 'Yep - a lot of the hate comes (I think) from people who just compare the price of the hardware with Windows machines and ignore completely the value-add from OS X and the eco-system as well as the reduction in time needed to admin the machine.', 'He was a scapegoat for their bigger problems', 'Then it would be price fixing and therefore subject to antitrust laws. Why is it garbage?', 'They probably had to, for legal reasons. Just so no one can possibly find a way to hold them responsible for iPhone user downloading illegal torrent.\n\nIf someone illegally downloads copyrighted material to their iPhone then backs up their iPhone to iCloud it probably puts Apple in trouble for illegally hosting it. \n\nLegal reasons doesn’t mean logical reasons tho', "I'm not ignoring the point. Only one party has shared details as to why the app is no longer available in the iOS app store. Apple hasn't provided a public statement. The only details that were shared were by Synology's support which could be total BS.\n\nI used a Synology device many years ago, I believe it was a DS212j device back around 2011-2012. I never used the apps back then because to be quite honest they were giant piles of shit and I'm assuming they are are still shit. For years I always had a intake directory via Dropbox and anything I dropped in that directory would get downloaded automatically. I've since moved on from using Dropbox and really don't torrent unless there's an issue with a Linux distros HTTP link.", 'They had no reason to do that you say? Are you not aware that most of the things that people torrent are absolutely illegal in most countries? They had a VERY good reason to get rid of the app.', 'You’re absolutely right. For the ones who aren’t aware look into how IBM helped Hitler with its advanced punch card technology, which made census and data checking much easier. \n\nHere’s an interesting book on the topic. While this book my have some hyperbole, it demonstrates how data technology would be definitely be used if an authoritarian government were to rise up. \n\nhttps://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/IBM_and_the_Holocaust', 'Oh please wise one enlighten me on how exactly Apple make their money? Let me guess - their financial statements are a lie? It’s *not* hardware sales? It’s - what - something sinister and secret? And Google? *Not* AdSense? No? What is it then? GSuite for Business? Is that it? Cool cool. Glad I was “set straight” by someone whose level of analysis is “lol Apple fanbois”', 'No apple bad lol you sheep', 'There is absolutely no reason to believe this is something Apple is considering or will be considering in the near future. Sure, everything is possible but it isn’t probable given every thing they have been doing for several years w.r.t. privacy and security practices.\n\n50% of their revenue comes from iPhones alone. They stand to gain relatively nothing by trying to make inroads into the targeted advertising market.', 'Apple can be scummy with planned obsolescence, but Apple wouldn’t risk selling your data, they value privacy. It’s one of their core models. They don’t even need to sell your data since they have so many revenue streams, unlike FB.', "The entire point, which you conveniently ignore, is that this shit is extremely volatile. If Apple's interests align with the consumer, then it's amazing. But it just so happens to be. Corporations are looking to make money, and nothing else. If Apple takes a stance on privacy it's because it will make them money in the long term.\n\nWhat do you think happens if it doesn't make money ? You think they will keep investing out of principle ?", 'I’m pretty doubtful that Apple would bring back Touch ID in any but the economy model iPhone SE, but I could see them bringing back fingerprinting if that detecting-fingerprints-through-screen-glass thing gets good.', "Google why is Facebook bad and you'll see why.", 'I like how you think rooting a phone is exceptional, kekeke', "i've made an egregious error😿", 'Most of my argument was based on the fact that  data is being used not only for ad targeting, but also for Sponsored posts targeting and such. After all, once they have your info I doubt there is anything in place that would restrict them from using it outside the “ad targeting” scenario.\n\n> never seen a news ad actually\n\nYou must have noticed Sponsored posts. Those are Facebook posts created under a Facebook account, which the owner pays for such that they could appear on news feeds without being in their friends/contact lists. They can contain anything, from product advertisement and dietary best practices, to political news. Once again, not necessarily trustworthy information.\n\n> why would they care if you are prone to believe it or not\n\nSimply to get more clicks from you...\nThey will target certain articles for you, those which have a higher probability you’d be interested in, based on these preferences they infer from your online behaviour, whether those articles are trustworthy or not.\n\nAlso, some of these posts targeting parties could be influenced by political figures to present them in a better light, and so their interest would be double sided: money and patron pleasing', 'Right. Company does something I like in exchange for my money. Seems reasonable.', '>\tThe closest you can (generally) get is a one-time payment including up to 1 year of updates and support, with an annual payment for updates and on-going support.\n\nI don’t need support for an app costing a buck.\n\n>\tAd-revenue is basically the same as a paid-for subscription, except it is paid for by the advertizors.\n\nCorrect. I dislike both.', 'I use my phone as a phone.', 'Lol I can’t imagine how frustrating and inefficient it must be to attempt to use a phone as a workstation or “computer”. I pity you, honestly.\n\nWant a tip? Get a laptop and save yourself mountains of time and stress so you don’t ha e to work on a five inch screen on an unstable overheating mess of a device with last gen hardware that you paid current gen prices for. 😂\n\nYou act as if owning anything actually changes the practicality of the device or its software or use - when it doesn’t.. at all. 🤣\n\nLet me guess, the next point you’re going to bring up is that you can transfer files with a cable !! 🤣🤣🤣\n\nHey maybe one of these days google\nWill start paying you for taking every last piece of personal and tracking information from you and you’ll be able to afford an actual computer.\n\nAlso - do you think iPhones can’t use google apps? I have google voice on my phone too lmao. What year do you think it is??\n\nIt’s ok. I get it. You android fanboys will never change. You talk all this smack but in reality\nThe only reason you like android is so you can illegally download game apk’s because you’re a literal child with a video game addiction. More iPhones for us, thank god.', 'An ad for something you don’t like is not intrusive, it’s just annoying. An ad perfectly tailored to your needs but curated by tracking every single move of you on the internet (and your couch if it is your tv) may not be so annoying but it is hella intrusive.', 'You understand we’re just trading opinions, right? We’re not having some factual debate on some scientific topic and this isn’t a debate tournament. \n\nSo again, shame on you for wanting advertisers to know who you are (and what that means in terms of personalized data collection) just so you can see ads you prefer.', "Ok but saying android has more market share is wrong because it's further divided into different companies thats what im sayin", "I just did switch back, specifically because of Apple's privacy stance. Got an iPhone 11 now and it's taken me some time to get used to it again, but I'm very happy so far. \n\nMy last iPhone was a 4s. Since then I've had a Galaxy S4, S5, some LG phone, a Pixel and an LG Thinq G7. Bummer to give up that many years worth of app purchases and stuff but it's a small price to pay really.", "Right? I read this and mentioned to my wife that this makes me SERIOUSLY consider jumping ship to iOS, and I've \\*always\\* been an Android user.", 'I\'m a lifetime Android user.  My only "iPhone" experience was a first-gen iPod Touch.  Will 100% be switching to Apple when the 12 is released.\n\nGoogle and Facebook\'s blatant disregard for privacy is frustrating.  Yeah maybe Apple is just protecting privacy for the money, but that\'s fine by me.  I vote with my wallet.', "I'm with you bud.  Mind you, apple has its own scummy practices so it's kind of the lesser of two evils.", 'I just made another comment saying apple should release a "budget" brand and advertise it by its security. I know that isn\'t apple\'s style. But considering how much people are focused on security, it almost is their style to be "different"', "Ditto.  I swapped away about 2 years ago because I was absolutely not spending $700 on a phone.\n\nI've had some issues with my new one (mostly due to a carrier swap mid way that screwed everything up), but if apple is actually going to do the right thing security wise and offer cheaper options (I don't like $400 on a phone either, but my current one was $300 so at least it's in the ballpark), then I'm willing to jump back.", 'Personally, I agree with this guy. \n\nhttps://www.reddit.com/r/technology/comments/ihlw91/-/g31ibae', 'See now I’m torn. I started with android but two years ago went with an iPhone. I was planning on going back to Android when my contract is up this October but now I’m thinking I might have to stay with iphone', 'jupp get a finger print iphone with 128gb, covers most basis.', 'I switched the minute Apple came out with the bigger screen. Always had crap luck with anything on an android platform including our tv. Been happy with my iphone ever since.', 'If apple offered expandable memory, i would switch to them in the blink of an eye.', "I've heard nothing but great things about the budget iPhones. I'm probably not gonna switch back because I like to buy suuuuuper budget phones but I'm happy with the stuff apple is doing for sure.", 'IKR?  Between this and the Firefox container, privacy is becoming a possibility again.', "I despise the iOS ecosystem and have used Android since like 2009. Ideally I'd like a Chromium like OS with all the Google stuff stripped out, but still be Android under the hood, however I can't see that happening as is. I'd try out iOS again if the privacy implications were that good.", "After the Pixel 4 monstrosity, the delay on the 4A and the lack of a 5G phone in sight I'm thinking of switching back to Apple once the 12 gets announced. This whole privacy thing with Facebook might've sealed the deal for me.", "Add 'permanently dump Foxconn' to that list and I'd join you.  Yeah, I know none of them are perfect, but specifically screw apple.", "Same here, I've never used an iPhone but if they're willing to protect their users like they then maybe I should switch.\n\nOh yeah, I refuse to install anything by the Facebook empire of sludge so this wouldn't directly benefit me in this particular case.", "Same here. I remember going to Apple conventions with my mom back in the 80's when they had open source. Then fell off the user bandwagon and closed down the open source aspect. \n\nI've only seen good things lately with how they handle the costumers privacy like not giving in when the law tried to force them to open a phone. \n\nI'm a gamer, so won't be going apple for a PC, but more like the phone. Especially since they unlocked the home screen icons. That was so bad. Been Android since day one with my Google G1 phone. Again, the phone market may be calling me.", "same here. I'm don't buy into brand loyalty and just couldn't see the real benefit of an iphone. (I do recognize it's supreme interconnectivity, but it's useless if you only plan on having one apple-product.) This however might pursuade me to go apple next phone.", 'Having to change android phones every 1.5-2years because of how slow and bloated the apps get overtime is really a no brainer for switching to apple. \nI had about 4 androids and since i switched to Apple i have had only two for the same period of time the big 6 model and still use the 8 big model. Waiting for the new iPhone to switch now.', 'Been on the pixels and nexus before that. Considering a move back Pixel has been a disappointment every year - great OS (the best) but the phones are always a compromise on memory or screen or battery, something major. The ecosystem sucks. Buds are junk, watches suck in comparison, etc.\n\nThe only outstanding thing is the OS really.', 'I switched back as well\n\nMy mobile history has been, iPod touch 2&4(I 100% jailbroke), second hand iPhone 4, android track phones etc, S5 then S7. Now I’m on an 11 pro after my s7 died. \n\nI appreciate android for why I liked it over Apple, it’s a far more open Linux like OS that I used during the times where mobile support was crap. \n\nSo I could install adobe flash, emulators, off market apps etc. \n\nBut now with second hand devices being so cheap, and now that an actual god forsaken potato can play a now cross platform Minecraft. (Only a dream in 2012) \n\nI went with Apple cause I’ve always liked them and the android features aren’t necessary now. \n\nI have always disliked apples poor android cross platform support, their ditching of the headphone jack and their ridiculous right to repair stance. \n\nBut I’m 25 now and all I need is a fast secure simple phone that integrates with my iPhone loyalist family better than an S7 does. since the S20 dropped the 3.5mm jack I had no more loyalty left and I have consoles and a PC at home.', 'Way ahead of you lol plus Apple finally is poaching all of androids features iOS 14 is lit!', 'I was an anti-apple person because I was anti-trend or status symbol or whatever I thought apple devices had become... but man they lured me back with their privacy efforts. That and their primary business being selling hardware. Which is much less problematic for me than an advertiser/marketer who sells hardware and/or creates app ecosystems that help them sell more advertising based on the additional data sources these products provide on me', "I think the difference is Apple focuses more on hardware than other companies like Google and definitely Facebook. Apple's been through the wringer before fighting the FBI for backdoor access to their phones. They want to sell iPhones.\n\nMeanwhile all Facebook is concerned about is mining user info and selling it at any cost.", 'Buddy of mine just switched over. Loves it.', 'Same here. Just bought an s20 after an s9 and before had some good HTC phones.\nS20 is an amazing phone really but I m really starting to value more my privacy given recent news and the 🍎 guys are doing great on that topic', "Pixel 4 user, already bought myself a set of airpods in preparation for my switch back later this year. It'll be annoying getting away from Google and all the password saves and Google photos, but my Google photos will still exist.\n\nAlso slowly making the switch to protonmail, I'm so done with Google, the pixel 1 was AWESOME, I didn't upgrade until the pixel 4 and honestly the battery performance issues on all pixel devices since Oreo came out is just appaling. It hasn't been fixed since mid 2017 when the issue started.", 'Esp in light of chinese companies selling units knowingly with malware installed, PII/privacy security is becoming such a USP for hardware. Crazy that it’s come to this.', 'Do it. I jumped ship last month. Had a note 9 since the day it came out. I started getting ads in my main apps. Bought an iPhone 11 Pro and it works wonderful with my MacBook. Only thing I miss is the other reddit app.', "What I don't understand is if yall are so against Facebook why do you even consider putting it on your phone.\n\nI mean there's probably another 5 apps on there that you've agreed to let use your data.\n\nWhat makes Facebook so terrible, but also so needful.\n\nI don't use it, I don't even think there was a phone app the last time I tried it out. So I just don't get it. It's all bad, don't put it on your phone.", "Honestly, same. I wouldn't mind paying extra if it meant better privacy/security practices.", 'Android and iPhone user here. The value you get in a cheaper iPhone is way better than an android of the same price point. Last month I got the 2020 iPhone SE and I honestly like it more than the Galaxy note 9 which cost 2x as much when new.', "Same boat. Plus.. the Google Pixel 3xl I have got is flagship price for sub par product. I like stock android. I want to support open source. But the price I pay for the product I get, special mention to the piss ass pixel buds, is already wearing me down. Apple's privacy policy is a huge pivot for me to take the jump..", "Im way ahead of you dude.  Switched from 5S to Galaxy S6 and now thinking it's time to go back! \n\n(Edit: that's timing of phones, I've since ditched the S6 as it died but that was the year i moved over)", '> I can tell you as a long time Android user, but a long, long time ago Apple user, if Tim keeps this up I might just think about switching back. \n\nI was on iOS for 10 years and then switched to Android for the last 1.5 or so. I will 100% returning to Apple the minute they release their next phone.\n\nAndroid is kinda cool, and the call screen feature is incredible for cutting down on spam call bullshit, but I have an iPhone 11 for work and using them side by side is depressing. The iPhone is just so much better a device.\n\nI will, however, miss the Pornhub app on Android. ;(', "I'm one of them irrationally hate Apple people, since like the 90s.  I'm about to switch over Apple defense of privacy.", 'If you play games, Apple is currently getting negative karma on that front because they are banning the ability to stream games to your device (ie: from the cloud, from your console).', 'I will switch to Apple if this is how they will be operating', "I went android for headphone jacks, swappable batteries, price, etc.  \n  \nCount me in for likely changing back to Apple. I don't say things like this often,  but **fuck Android for doing that.**   \n  \nI didn't want to be pushed back to apple.", 'I am in same boat.  Been Google and Samsung forever. Had to carry an iPhone 4 for work back in the day but I think I might go back because of privacy is worth it.  Samsung better step it up now or I am gone.  Tired of Facebook and other apps knowing everything.', 'Same here.  I want a OnePlus for the dual SIM.  Not many international carriers offer eSim compared to nano SIM.  I also have a hard time losing Firefox because of uBlock Origin extension.  If Apple allowed Firefox native with extensions, I can live without the dual SIM.', "I really think this is the move that's going to pull me back to Apple.", 'Agreed this has been a massive head turner for me. I have been a die hard android person for almost 15 years now but this may bring me back to apple.', "I've been going back and forth between Android and iPhone almost every year, ever since the original G1 back in...2008? Mostly because I use one until I get bored of it and I get free upgrades every year.\n\nThe last 2 upgrades though, I've stuck with my iPhone. Privacy surely is important, but my iPhone doesn't flake on me during important shit like my top of the line Androids have in the past. Notably, my GPS stopped functioning when I was on my way to a god damn job interview. And another incident where my messaging app continuously force closed itself when I was trying to tell my sister how to handle an issue her and her boyfriend were having that she wasn't comfortable talking on the phone.\n\nMy iPhones have never had those problems. Yeah, they're not as flexible and customizable but the shit just works. Always.", 'Well if you care about human rights then get informed about how Apple and other big tech companies are using Muslim slave labor in China', 'I agree, I thought the same thing myself.', 'And I can tell you as an iPhone then android and now back to iPhone user, the biggest issue with the iPhone continues to be Apple\'s insistence that they know (better than I do) what app I should use for every aspect of my personal and professional life, like I\'m some fucking child.  This stems from their continued belief in a closed system when it comes to integrating things like Siri. \n\nFor instance, say you want Siri to play your favorite playlist on Spotify, her response is, “I’m sorry, I don’t see that playlist on iTunes”.  Well no shit, I switched to Spotify a good 5 or 6 years before you stopped charging everyone a dollar for each song.  Want to email that contact on your iPhone? Click the email address from your contacts app, and the iPhone will prompt you to reinstall the iPhone email app.  The same goes for your calendar and many other utilities.  \n\nNot to mention what an utter piece of trash Siri is compared to other voice-activated services.  It\'s as if they stopped developing and iterating on it after it first came out.  Ask Siri any question and 99 times out of 100,  you\'ll get the exact same audio response, "I found something on the web regarding that topic, take a look" instead of responding with the answer I\'m looking for.', "Never had an iphone. Had a mac a long time ago.\n\n\n\nIf google doesn't take similar steps, my next device is absolutely an iphone.\n\nMy position always was that what they sell is overpriced, but if they can offer confidentiality, it dramaticaly changes the value proposition in their favor.\n\nI'll pay 300 more to block facebook.", "Apple is only taking these steps so they can corner the market and use the data themselves. They've done this with almost every product or service they sell.\n\nPlease dont think this a good guy Tim Cook moment. They know itll sell more iPhone and they know they can sell the data.", "I loathe Apple as a company to my core, but I can't lie - I do like iPhones. I currently have a Note 10+ but I had an iPhone XR before that and I loved the phone.", "The quality is way worse than a few years ago.\n\nAlso Apple will protect your privacy with policy but they're infrastructure is a joke compared to any other company doing the same thing. I'm talking no backups single point of failure shit.\n\nThe Apple of old is no more", 'As a former lifelong android user, I switched to iPhone 11 and haven’t regretted it. The leadership and frankly the innovation has gotten much better since Tim stepped in. When jobs was in charge it was just pathetic marketing tricks.', 'I just moved to the new 2020 SE and LOVE it', 'Hell no, don’t buy that piece of shit iPhone SE, you can get better for that price and less if you just do research', '.....lower price iphones? As a similarly long time android , long long ago iphone user this is intruiging', "I've never used iPhones before and this is my reason for switching. I am doing it by end of year. As an IT professional, and long time Android advocate, everyone is making fun of me. :D", 'I have stubbornly been using Android for years and have never had an Iphone, but this has actually convinced me to make the switch. My loathing for facebook went further than I knew.', "I'm legit thinking about switching back for this and the encryption. I just wish they weren't 4x as expensive and more fragile than my current phone. You could sneeze on a 6 and break your screen, I haven't been back since.", 'I was an early smartphone adopter (HTC Touch), and have been with Android basically since it rolled out (HTC Hero), and have never owned an Apple product.\n\nI ordered an iPhone 11 this morning.', "I switched to Apple specifically because of this change. Friends were all in shock because I've avoided Apple from the beginning. I even had that chunky, flip open Android. I was the only person that had a Zune.", 'Oh no...please don’t tell me you installed FB on an Android. Did you look at all of the permissions that app demands in order to run? You’re basically giving them the keys to your entire phone...user accounts and all.', 'I’m just going to point out this has always been their thing. Look at the first WWDC of iMessage a big part of the presentation was that it was encrypted and private, they have had public fights with two separate parties in control of the US government over privacy and didn’t back down. This isn’t new and it’s why I always have kept an iPhone, even if it’s fake, they are the only ones that even cate to talk about it as a selling point.', "I switched to iOS years ago because I grew tired of flashing ROMs so I could be on the latest AOSP, since OEM's and carriers stay several updates behind. iOS is also more minimal than Android, and still can run great on a gig of RAM. Flagship Android devices have a lesser resale value, outside of the Note. I use my device strictly utilitarian, no social media or as my main computing device, chock full of apps. Although I may buy a Pine Phone, since I use Linux.", 'On a Pixel 3 now, and eyeing an iPhone for my next, too.', '>lower price iPhones\n\nWhat from $1500 down to $1000 is still super expensive', 'The feature that this article is about also exists in Android since version 10, apparently.', "I've never been an iPhone users, but this privacy as a value aspect is huge.  Too bad privacy want required by law or anything.  Consumer protection is dead in the US.  . . A lot of things are dead in the US", '>> if Tim keeps this up I might just think about switching\n\nNever had an iphone but now I am re considering heavily.', "I just bought my first iPhone about a year ago after being a die hard Android user. I've been happy with my choice.", 'I can’t say anything, but I wouldn’t recommend Apple going further.', "I'm in the same boat as you. I'm most probably switching", "Apple might be privacy focused, but they aren't very kind to power users who will probably find such a switch extremely frustrating. \n\nSimple example: you can't switch out an app for an older version on apple, whereas you can simply sideload an apk from android. In fact, it's really hard to get any app that's not on the app store into an iPhone. \n\nAndroid does allow you to control what permissions and run activities each app has - they're just not that automatic. You can check out an app called Greenify which can shut off other apps from running in background. It's a blessing and a curse - Android is very customizable... although Google has been trying to clamp down on those freedoms in recent years.", "Same here. This might get me to buy Apple, even though I've been using Android for years (and a short bout of Windows phone)", 'Was thinking the exact same thing. This could be the thing to make me go back.', 'I got the 11.  Its bad ass man.', 'I got the SE not too long ago. For the price and what you get, it’s almost a no brainer. It’s an 11 in the body of an 8 and for a third of the price. Plus some carriers are basically giving them away for free right now.', "I dislike Apple too much for its monopolistic attitude tbh, i'd suggest switching to a linux phone like Purism' librem 5 more than an IPhone if security is your concern.", 'I have never purchased an ios device.  I use an iPad at work, however.\n\nMy next smartphone will be an iPhone because I keep on getting personalized ads that could have only happened if someone was listening in to my private conversations while my phone is merely sitting in my pocket, supposedly doing nothing.', "I think it's a net win for the end-user (us). Apple may want to sell us more stuff, but they still go at it to protect their devices and their users. Or at least what Apple believes protects.\n\nApple has been very security focused with the iPhone. I'm honestly surprised that the unique ID was obtainable between apps or even from an app. \n\nThis is Zuck being Zuck.  He's not wrong that it could have an effect on businesses and ad revenue. He's just being hyperbolic that the ad-industry is ruined.  No, it will just adapt as it has been over the last 20 years.\n\nHe is pointing the finger at Apple so when iOS14 hits and businesses see the effect he creates a plausible deniability of sorts.  If Android had done this first, the article would be the same but instead pointed at them.", 'And I\'m not mad at that at all. Im in a totally different industry (construction) but its the same idea. Try to make every "movement" as efficient as possible. I might be talking outta my ass but the hardest part of "marketing" is trying to get them to buy something they don\'t need or want. I think Apple has been one of the best companies, to adapt their marketing for decades. And now they made a decision that may temporarily effect their bottom line. But with all the focus on "personal information" I think it was brilliant. Developers, are going to modify apps to apples requirements, not the other way around', 'Aittle joke about our conversation- you probably aren\'t in real estate. But it still works.\n\n"My job is to build things people don\'t want or need, and your job is to make people "want and need them"', "I was going to jump to Android in the coming months with a new phone, but this? I'll admit, if it's a marketing tactic, it fucking worked.", ">just because something is made to sell more product, doesn't mean it can't be a good thing.\n\nSounds like marketing talk to me... (¬_¬)", '> just because something is made to sell more product\n\nI would even say that the bar is "as long as it doesn\'t hurt sales".', 'Where to you guys learn your doublespeak?', "Get Blockada. It's a start.", "Yep I'm planning on getting the iPhone 12. Haven't bought an iPhone in 8 years.", 'Maybe just done use scummy apps?', 'That was short, sweet and honest. One of the best replies I have gotten (nkt that im a professional reply reviewer). Either way i like it', "Othe mr then spending thousands of dollars on their products... this is one of the few times I'm supporting apple. I have a weird feeling considering the last few months, Marky Zuk should be looking for a plot for facebook in the same cemetery as MySpace. Two years ago I woulda laughed at my self for making that comment. I wouldn't be suprised if in 2 years the only people using Facebook for more then the messenger will be 50-60 year old white ladies.", 'Apple’s new SE is only $400 and I’m pretty sure it has the same chip as the iPhone 11. Don’t hold me to the chip thing but it’s definitely supposed to be a really good budget phone.', 'I didn\'t even know Steve Jobs said that and I only jist saw this comment. I swear I litteraly just sent my mom (who owns apple stocks) asking her if she heard about the "nuclear bomb of security" apple just dropped on Google and Facebook.', 'They should work on it, because I got a Note10(?) at the beginning of the year, and I\'m currently looking into if Apple\'s security claim on the next update is just smoke and mirrors. It seem like its legitimate. I think if Apple released a "budget brand" of phones used "security" as their selling point, they would do well.', 'I think apple deserves more credit that they get in privacy. Like people say "there just doing this for money and they aren\'t some saint" I would beg to differ on that stance. Apples revenue compared to googles revenue is quite different. Apples makes money through hardware and google makes money though cloud and mainly advertising. In fact google made over $100 billion on consumer data gathering and advertising. Apples has a huge population CONSUMING there hardware. If they WANTED TO they can collect data in the same way google does through every iPhone, Mac, Apple Watch in the world which is a HUGE untapped revenue. It\'s well known that apples gain in revenue from customers that switch to apple for privacy is tiny in comparison to the amount it COULD gain from collecting data in the same way google and Facebook does. So yes there closer to a saint than you think. They are operating on this belief on privacy on a negative return. It\'s like if apple owned YouTube but never tuned on ads for the sake of not ruing they experience with ads a huge loss in revenue. If tommarow apples announced that they will now start collecting data then the company as a whole would shoot up 3 trillion market cap in a very short time as we know there are ENITE industries on just collecting data and if apple were to turn on the switch in an instant it would be like they were a mini Facebook and Facebook is worth 900 BILLION on just the revenue of collecting and selling data. So it wouldn\'t be so far fetched for apple to be losing a TON of revenue for the sake of your privacy', "I highly doubt it. Apple is a good corner compared to google and Facebook because unlike those 2 other giants Apple doesn't make money selling data. That's the whole business model of google and Facebook. For google to sell a phone that doesn't collect your data would be contradicting there ENTIRE business model because google doesn't make much money from google there vast fortune comes from consumer data gather and selling data to advertisers.", 'But it’s GOOD that they’re doing this to sell phones. OTOH, Google does things to sell user’s data.', "> We know Apple isn't some saint. It's all to sell phones. I think if Google can do something similar...\n\nIt's true that Apple is in it for the money. But how they do it is why Google will never really compete on privacy. While they both get revenue from their respective mobile app stores, Apple focuses on high margin hardware, and Google focuses on collecting information* and selling advertising.   \n\nThat fundamental difference between revenue streams means that while privacy can be used for Apple marketing, Google will never get away with that kind of ploy.  \n\n(*I'm certain Apple maintains a healthy database on its userbase, but it's primary focus is not on selling access to that data to boost profits)", 'Of course it’s to sell phones. That’s their job.  it’s giving customers what they want so they will buy the product. \nAs opposed to screwing the customer by selling their data to make money.', 'I half agree with ya, they have been touting security for a while, which is awesome. I just think selling products was a pretty big thing behind the security. Apple\'s "overall outlook" is to make money. Making them selves appear more altruistic, compaired to other companies. Has long been one of the marketing techniques.', 'I agree with you 100% I might have overreacted by saying "a step their competitors are unwilling to take". I never actually though about the idea that security an privacy are the last few things of value that can be added. I want to throw "durability" onto that list as well, but its all on the same lines kinda.', 'I have no idea how there is still Facebook data on my note 10', 'It does when you are risking relationships with Google and Facebook... come on', 'Because Apple makes their money off hardware, companies like Google and facebook are making a lot of money off of advertising and mining peoples personal data.', 'If read the second sentence in my post, and nkt focus on what you thought was wrong, you will notice I agree with you', 'Because companies like Google and Facebook make A LOT of money off of mining personal data. And Apple makes money off of selling hardware', 'Thanks for the Tldr version of my comment', 'My ma has been buying and selling he apple stocks for about 15 years she doesn\'t make millions or anything, she says its a pretty easy stock to predict the trends. She does it more for "fun" than anything I think. She just rebought abkut a month ago. So keep that in mind with apple stock, if you have enough money in it you can make a good chunk of cash with their stock alone.', 'I\'m using a note10 now, and I tried to get Facebook (which was already on the phone) off. But even still the odd time going through files I see "facebook" inside file names.', 'you mean they got the courage? /s', "Have ya looked into the issue l? Or are ya just saying that? If they wanted to be in the business of selling your information, they would put facebook to shame, Apple could get WAY more data outta their phones than Facebook could from an app. They're selling point with this update is to PREVENT your data from being sold. Before you let me know all companies are sheisty and they probably are any ways, do some research on the issue. Apple wouldnt even unlock a terrorists phone. Security has always been a big selling point for apple.", "Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't this just mean google uses your personal info to show you targeted ads? Google sells advertising packages to vendors and targets me with ads based on my mined preferences. This doesn't mean google sells my data, it means it collects and uses my data. Maybe someone can provide evidence that google sells your unmasked PII to other companies?", "To be fair I'd be hard pressed to think of something I find more useful in my life than Google search engine, to say nothing of Google docs etc and I haven't paid a single cent for any of it. I mean I've acted under the assumption the nsa is listening to everything I say anyway for years, can't invade my privacy if there's nothing private on their platforms.", 'And the 30% tax on anything sold in their walled garden.', "Apple would if they could. The app store exists to make money and sell ads, same with Apple search. They just aren't as successful.", 'No, google does not want to do this. Googles business model is advertising. They own the largest ad network there is. Doing this would cripple every single app and business that uses google to serve ads and buy/sell in ad networks. Apple doesn’t have skin in the ad network game', "In what way. I've looked at the revenue sheets that they file and the way they make there money is quite different. Googles ENTIRE business model is based on collecting and selling consumer data and that's where most of there income come from. Where as apple is making most there revenue from hardware.", 'probably at a very high conceptual level, yes. They both want your money or something you own', 'No corporation gives a rat fuck about their consumers, not even a billionth of an inch past taking their money.\n\nAll corporations are bad in this manner. But people are fucking stupid and somehow get to thinking **their** favorite company is different and *they really care*.\n\nThe bed has been made', 'Not quite sure I know what you mean. You can already opt out of personalized advertising from Google, as well as see *everything* Google knows about you and delete it at any time:\n\nhttps://adssettings.google.com/ (to see what Google ads believes about you or turn off ads personalization)\n\nhttps://myactivity.google.com/myactivity (to see what Google remembers about you and delete it if you like)\n\nGoogle is transparent about what data it collects, and allows you full control over whether you want them to keep that data or not. Honestly, it\'s hilarious to me that people get so upset about Google "tracking for ads" when they could literally turn it off with one click.', "Yep. There's a reason Apple created the App Store, Safari, iCloud... I could go on. Hint: it isn't just about selling apps, providing web access, and giving you access to your files from anywhere.\n\nIt's just as much about collecting your data and learning what makes you tick so they (and others) can sell you shit.\n\nI openly accept this as part of the proposition, I'm over it. But never the less I don't enter into these agreements blind, and neither should anyone else. Not everybody is cool with it.\n\nThat said, I'll never have a problem with any entity putting the boot into Facebook. They've shown time and time again that out of all of the big players, they're not to be trusted with your data. The 2016 election over in the USA and everything since is as much proof of this as anybody should need.", "Apple turning off cookies is drastically different than Chrome turning off cookies. Safari is 16% of browsers, Chrome is 66%. \n\nIf you shut off 3p cookies in chrome overnight, you'll kill millions of web publishers. All of your non-commercial blogs, all of your game sites and apps... will all have almost no monetization.\n\nGoogle doesn't make most of its money from Display ads, but they ARE critical to making sure people can get paid to put content on the open, free Internet.", "This is completely incorrect. Google's ads systems will also have to deal with this issue. I cannot comment further, apologies.", 'Right but they break fundamental parts of the internet experience. Chrome is trying to remove them without breaking what you actually like about the internet.', 'How do you figure? Google also won\'t be able to track you with this change (at least on non-Google sites).\n\nThe "you are the product" statement is inane. Users, advertisers, and (in some cases) publishers are all required customers for Google\'s monetization system to work. Reducing it to such a platitude cheapens the discussion.', "Why not? You don't look at web sites on your phone?", 'may the algorithm bless thee with cake ads for 2 months', 'Fair enough. The more you know.', "How is it? I tend to hold off on updates until the GM is out for my personal devices and unfortunately haven't spent much time with it on my dev device.", 'How does one access the beta?', 'No idea, I haven’t been interested in that for 10+ years.', "Yeah, I'm on 13.4.1 and can jailbreak if I want to.", "Ah sorry it's been a while since I've jailbroken my phone. But I love the tweaks I see 'round these parts.", "Don't worry, you don't need to! Facebook, out of the goodness of their hearts, is almost certainly tracking you anyway!", 'And New reddit account ;)', 'Yup.. This is the great time to involve in social media without worrying..', 'I made like 4 of them, and apparently they were re-activated last year cause I keep getting dumb shit from them.', 'Oh look, the NPC is afraid of Nazis!\n\nROFLMAO', "Right wing isn't much different in Alberta than it is in Texas.  Don't try to elevate yourself above stupid.", 'News flash, All forms of conservatism is immoral and unnatural as history has proven time and time again. No Conservative ideology ever stays for long. (because again, its just not a natural thing for civilization)', 'Imagine thinking president “Tiananmen Square good” is somehow anti-China', 'Nah just skip the run-around data theft and send him your bank details, that should about do it', 'What, no, that’s completely ridiculous.\n\nYou should use Facebook Pay™', 'Unfortunately, this post has been removed. Facebook links are not allowed by /r/technology.\n\n*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/technology) if you have any questions or concerns.*', "Google gets all of apples data and sells it. So funny I was downvoted. Poor apple fans. Didn't know Cook was selling their data to Google this whole time.", 'Now now, he only eats what he personally kill-- oh, dear.', '“To Serve Man” It’s a cookbook.', 'Mmmm people meat is the other white meat 🍖', 'Thankfully, the taste varies from person to person.', '"Thank you for coming to our business dinner, how are you enjoying your peasant?"', 'Or what he means by "Smoking." I wouldn\'t be surprised if in a few years he tells us that he switched to vaping meat because it\'s better for your lungs.', "Well yeah, with sweet baby ray's. What other options *are* there?", '"Are these legit quotes" responding to one quote, which, if you read the article, was obviously not from Facebook. A simple question indeed.', 'No one is upset about ads, this has nothing to do with preventing ads. This is 100% about a company taking your data, and using it to make exorbitant profits none of which pass back to you. Apple’s changes do not prevent anyone from continuing to serve (impersonalised) ads.\n\nPersonally, I don’t care if I see ads personalised or not, but I do care about a nefarious company that has access to my private data. I have no knowledge nor control over what happens with that data. That’s the issue.', "Ok, I'll also be more direct. Even if it has quotes, and he put who said it, along with a date, time, place, and context, and everyone else in the thread agrees, you should still fact check.\n\nIf you're planning on taking part in a discussion about the article, you should read the fucking article.\n\nIf you frequently read quotes and take them out of context simply because you refuse to acknowledge the context, when it's literally right in front of you a click away, that's on you.\n\nIf you're ignorant and lazy, asking a question about the context risks you getting misinformation anyway.\n\nYour entire comment seems to try and justify being wilfully ignorant, while putting the blame on the guy that did nothing but post a funny quote from the article.", 'The other side of this no one is mentioning is that these people are still going to get ads and stuff. Also, Facebook already has most of their data...\n\nThe ads and spam will just be less relevant and more annoying now for those on iOS14', "This is already a thing on Android, and most people can't be bothered. *shrug*", "We don't even know if we're using a Facebook product because they're not all owned by Facebook. If a software company uses software from a Facebook owned company, and we buy their product, it's part of the business structure that keeps Facebook profitable.\n\nThat's even harder to navigate than companies Facebook outright owns, and plenty of people boycotting them still use Instagram and Whatsapp.", "Facebook collects data on you, whether you've created an account with them or not.", 'your point is literally on another planet to the thing you\'re replying to\n\nhe said facebook does so much more than that social media network and you\'re like "plenty of us have quit the SNS"', "Doesn't matter in the grand scheme of things. They've been focusing growth in emerging markets where privacy is not in people's mind yet. It's crazy how entangled Facebook is in everyday life is in Southeast Asia especially in the commerce sector.", 'They are spying on you even if you’ve never had a profile.', 'Chances are though you use some service that is powered by some Facebook technology. Just as an example, many websites have some "Share on Facebook" button which, when loaded on that page, can be used to track you (since it is a request to a Facebook server to serve the button). Facebook also provides a bunch of services (and contributions to various projects like React), products like Oculus, and apps like Instagram, WhatsApp, etc.', "So you don't have Facebook, WhatsApp, Instagram or messenger right?", "The path of least resistance.  If it's there and simple, people won't look for better.  I like their focus on privacy, using Chrome just feels dirty knowing how Google makes their money.", "Chrome blew up at least initially because it was more streamlined and didn't have bells and whistles that took processing power. They also made each tab it's own process, so having a lot of tabs open didn't hinder the performance of the website you had open. The add-ons and extensions are really easy to manage, and it syncs a lot of things up between your phone and computer, as well as between your email and the rest of the browser.", 'Firefox + uBlock + PiHole.', "I'm just so entrenched in Chrome and the Google ecosystem.  What do I have to gain from switching to Firefox?  Genuinely asking.  I have so many chrome extension", 'Maybe if they ever switch Firefox to use WebKit.', 'It basically keeps Facebook sites, Facebook, Instagram and Messenger, from seeing all of the data from your other tabs/sites.  Their trackers work but only on their sites. You can add other sites if you have one that you want to be connected with your facebook info.', "That's true, but Cookie AutoDelete cleans a website's cookies shortly after you close its tab. Also you can whitelist certain websites which is really useful for staying logged-in on those you use a lot.", 'And this is why people really stress the "Chinese" part of tik-tok, because they\'d rather not focus on how terrible they all are.', 'We should stop having congressmen that represent states and have them pick which corporations they wish to support.  That would at least be more honest.', '"People" people don\'t fund the government', 'I think Instagram would have done fine on their own. Instagram presented an alternative to Facebook and could have expanded in different ways. Which way I am not certain, but it is my opinion that the purchase of Instagram stifled innovation, as the platform regularly copies features from other apps (Stories from Snapchat, Face-Filters from Snapchat, Reels from TikTok) and never makes much anything new its own.', 'Oh dip! Thanks for the heads-up.', 'The average person doesn\'t care either. They may say they do, and they may do something like tape their Webcam, but if they were offered a "keep paying $X per month, if you lapse, we collect data again", most people would let it lapse because they don\'t care enough.', "You don't even have to pay. Signal is a free alternative to Messenger, including end-to-end encryption and privacy protection. But you have some heavy missionary work ahead of you if you want people to join you.", "can you explain what it means? because i'm one of those ignorant americans that is willing to trade my data in return for free services.", 'Remember that "the average American" is still smarter than 50% of the population, so it\'s even worse.\n\nI got into a heated argument with a 40-something member of US government who argued that people "just needed to turn off location tracking, and they\'d stop being tracked".  SMH', 'Do you understand what it means?', "I get the idea and would honestly probably pay for it myself, but it really kinda says something sad when we'd have to pay **extra** in order to not be screwed over. I think they get away with it because most people just don't care.", 'Gramdr?', "And that was Google's  second failed social network attempt - remember Orkut? \n\nIt was also a good product and for a while became the go-to for people in Brazil and a few other countries. But no more.", 'Only one of us feels like they’re getting personally attacked bud', 'There’s an “unfollow” option on any of your friends or liked pages. You’ll still be “friends”, but FB won’t show you their posts. That’s a neat setup that frees your mind from all the garbage.', "Man my Aunts and Uncles for the most part are the sane ones. My parents are full on Trump supporters and former law enforcement so the past few months have been a joy. They know I've attended protests and that my girlfriend went to almost every protest in my city for a month straight but they still post about rounding up people and letting them sit in prison for a night to teach them a lesson. Supporting Trump is more important to them then giving credence to any of my opinions and criticisms.", "Delete the app from your phone. Restrict it to when you're on a traditional computer.", "That's because the Democrats are the conservative party now. Not sure what the Republicans are...", 'I had an aunt and uncle delete me for calling them crazy back when it was cool to say Obama was going to let the "Muslim Brotherhood" take over America and send all the white people on trains to FEMA death camps.', 'You always have control over the content you see. You can always remove those “friends” or if you don’t feel comfortable at least mute them. It’s not about removing and disconnecting from social media altogether but it’s about filtering what you see and hear. As OP said, Reddit is sometimes even more toxic than Facebook. Hop around on some of these subreddits and you start losing your sanity and faith in humanity... Same idea applies to the Facebook.\n\nEdit: Never thought this would be my first post to get a gold! Thank you stranger 🙏🏼', 'Block them. Mute them. Unfollow them.', 'The wife is still on Facebook, and ever since COVID started she has been un friending about one person a week for the ignorant shit they’re posting about masks and he who shall not be named.', 'As someone who is guilty of sharing baby pictures, am I not supposed to?', "I filter out my Facebook feed just like I filter out subreddits on my frontpage... It's not that hard to do either.", "Oh delete from phone but keep the account for the browser... Hm hadn't thought of this sounds interesting", 'I took FB off my phone and only log into it from my laptop browser if I decide I want to pop in. I’m going to do this next with IG. IG will be challenging considering it is mostly compatible via phone but it will save on me constantly opening the app to check on anything new.', 'About how old you are you? Methinks demographics make a big difference in an individual\'s perception of facebook.\n\nMy peers are pushing 30 and love their virtual soapbox and I hate them for it. They just can\'t stop posting propaganda. Probably because they don\'t fact check anything and just go with their "feelings" on the "issues." I\'m really happy the internet gave them a place for their voice to be heard but I don\'t think they understand that no one\'s listening because they\'re not saying anything worthwhile.', "Same here. Social media is what you make it. My feed is full of video games, sports, and the people that I want to hear from. My cousins who post ignorant shit just get muted on my feed. If social media is messing with you mentally, it's not just social media. There are other underlying anxieties", 'Maybe the saying of “if everywhere you go smells of shit, maybe check your shoes” runs true', 'I only use Facebook on mobile and I never see any ads like that. For reference I have like 670+ friends from all different backgrounds. The only thing I think I do differently from other people is I flat out remove anyone who expresses any hardcore racist/homophobic/sexist beliefs. Which hasn’t been a common event tbh. Maybe 2-3 every couple years and a bit higher than that during election years.', "It's the only reason I use facebook, the groups and the memes.", 'I don’t know the case but murder is murder. We should be outraged by every single one equally.', "Great idea to just use messenger. I'll give that a try then and delete my account. Dad is a Trump fan and I do my best to avoid those things lol. I'll also be limiting Reddit and only follow things that interest me and add value to my life. You're a good dude and hope you keep the good vibes coming.", 'Holy shit, thank you!', "I just did the same this morning. That Kenosha shit was the last straw. Mine wasn't super toxic-ish but I found I was becoming a brooding asshole. I'd rant to my wife about injustice that I couldn't do shit about, etc. etc. I don't feel any different but I'm sure it'll take a while.", 'It’s just hard to get everyone to commit to a different texting app after a decade of using one', 'I like telegram too, but couldn\'t you call that being "locked in" to telegram?', "You're surely not that obtuse to believe that's how easy it is?", 'Thats not the point. People dont want to use 4 different messengers', "You're just wasting time.", "It looks like you shared an AMP link. These should load faster, but Google's AMP is controversial because of [concerns over privacy and the Open Web](https://www.reddit.com/r/AmputatorBot/comments/ehrq3z/why_did_i_build_amputatorbot). Fully cached AMP pages (like the one you shared), are [especially problematic](https://www.reddit.com/r/AmputatorBot/comments/ehrq3z/why_did_i_build_amputatorbot).\n\nYou might want to visit **the canonical page** instead: **[https://www.forbes.com/sites/tonybradley/2017/07/31/facebook-ai-creates-its-own-language-in-creepy-preview-of-our-potential-future/](https://www.forbes.com/sites/tonybradley/2017/07/31/facebook-ai-creates-its-own-language-in-creepy-preview-of-our-potential-future/)**\n\n*****\n\n ^(I'm a bot | )[^(Why & About)](https://www.reddit.com/r/AmputatorBot/comments/ehrq3z/why_did_i_build_amputatorbot)^( | )[^(Summon me with u/AmputatorBot)](https://www.reddit.com/r/AmputatorBot/comments/cchly3/you_can_now_summon_amputatorbot/)", '> We are the Zuckerborg. Lower your VPNs and surrender your personal data. We will sell your private and personal data for massive profits. Your culture will adapt as we see fit. Resistance is futile.\n\n*"Red alert! Battlestations!"*\n\n*"Tactical, engage Zuckerborg countermeasures, and fire at will! Helm, evasive maneuvers!"*\n\n*"Engineering, I need those starboard power transfer conduits online! Load the VPN from protected backups!"*', '> I don\'t think he said that. He specifically remarked "innovation is invariably good" (in sarcasm, of course).\n\nFair point, tbh the way sarcasm works online can sometimes be confusing.', 'Who the hell ever said capitalism causes innovation for ethics motives. The idea is innovation is mostly good so it must be encouraged by a profit motive.', "> Oculus was bought out by them. \n\nTrue.\n\n > They didn't do shit to it except...\n\nNope, the Quest would've never happened if it weren't for Facebook, especially at the price point it released at. There's a reason nobody else has a decent standalone headset right now - the inside-out tracking is a really difficult problem to solve and the upfront cost to get developers on board with the platform is really high.", '> It\'s naive to think they do it for a "good cause"\n\nI never said they were for a good cause, I\'m just saying that they\'re innovating. No publicly traded-company is for a good cause - all of them exist to make money for shareholders. Apple aren\'t saints either and nobody can know what kind of tracking they do since iOS is closed-source.\n\nAlso, one might find the privacy of their data less valuable than the provided service. For web browsing I\'ll sure as hell do everything in my power to limit the amount of data FB collect on me since I get nothing out of it but I\'m perfectly fine with them analysing my Quest\'s data if it means I get to have some of the best VR on the market for cheap.\n\nReddit really likes to forget that Facebook does have valuable services and that most of their userbase aren\'t there just to spread fake news and to fuck with politics. As long as you stay off the front page and use appropriate tracking blockers FB does provide some legitimately good services that don\'t have proper alternatives.', "> So I think it’s accurate to say they make their own flavors of products, not that they are actually innovating.\n\nYou do have a point there but I think the value they provide comes from their massive user base. For example, where I live we don't have Craigslist. There were a few attempts at replicating it which ultimately failed due to low market adoption. But once FB Marketplace rolled out and people started using it suddenly it turns out that people are willing to sell their stuff online, as long as there are people buying.\n\nThe only area where I disagree regarding innovation is:\n\n > Oculus is a copy of multiple other VR devices. \n\nNope, not even close. The Oculus Quest is practically the sole and best standalone headset on the market and it shares the best inside-out tracking algorithm on the market with the Rift S which I bet took a shitton of R&D to develop. I have a Windows MR headset and the tracking is nowhere near as accurate or as fast as my Quest. Then there's stuff like hand tracking, Oculus Venues and Oculus Link.", 'Look, I hate Facebook. But Oculus was a copy of nothing. Oculus Rift and Oculus Quest respectively were the first of their kind on the market. Period.', 'That\'s because it isn\'t a partisan issue at it\'s core but rather simply a people issue. \n\nThe main problem and reason politics enter the scene are because we are no longer capable of acting in good faith. We could come up with "pretty good" solutions which won\'t be perfect but neither side is willing to budge on their particular items.\n\nInstead everyone would rather we all be worse off because that\'s the world we live in.\n\nAnd for anyone who is going to immediately blame the other side (whichever that might be) know that your elected official failed as well by not being able to reach agreements. Bother sides are children refusing to share and using the people as excuses despite the fact we are worse off with the inaction.\n\nThe entire current generation of lawmakers needs to be replaced with younger folks who will actually read and understand technology.', "Wrong,and ignorant. Facebook hasn't spread anything. People spread misinformation. Facebook also helped people spread accurate information. It also made the anti-anti-vax movement grow. Outside the US, it helped overthrow dictatorships, and help friends stay engaged with each other as people move throughout the world.      \n       \nYou are hysterical, and you're misrepresenting facts by forcing an ignorance, narrow-minded perspective. You are literally the one burying your head in your ass, genius. It's a social networking platform, not a gun or an oppressive regime.", '"Thorough or complete change" exactly. And that\'s not necessarily a bad thing for elimination of racism & corruption', "I'm confused, doesn't Facebook just sell ads too? Surely nobody else can access the data they have either.", "This idea that one tech giant is good and the other evil is ridiculous. Apple doesn't get a trillion dollar valuation without exploiting cheap labour or gouging app developers by taking 30% of their revenues. Google does the same and more, as it operates its own ad products and uses your data in much the same way as Facebook, and it's ad products model is almost as capable of using algorithmic voodoo to find users based on their tracked data as facebooks too. What you're reading in this article is also a form of marketing. Painting one ad giant as a hero whilst another is evil. FB and Google are not good for us, but whilst everyone complains they still want to use them. For free. In my opinion if you're not happy with one side of that value exchange, you do have the option not to use them at all, but then most people prefer to just call them evil rant about it yet continue to do so just same...", 'Corporate Alignment Charts is what I’ve been waiting for.  This is spot-on.', "I totally agree with you! I don't use ad blockers for this reason because I can understand that websites are paying for the content they serve. I'm not aware of any paid Facebook clone; in fact I've been searching for any real alternative to Facebook at all free or paid. I think that most ad companies have had issues with privacy but it seems like Facebook have overreached into abuse of privacy and they are not willing to recognize it.\n\nI'm genuinely asking if other ad providing companies have abused privacy as much as Facebook. From my understanding, this has led Zuckerberg to testify to a bipartisan panel in the United States congress. In his own testimony, Zuckerberg denied any wrongdoing. There's popular support among American's to split up Facebook, Instagram, and WhatsApp because of this.  \n\n\nI ask because I might be missing something from others like Google or Microsoft.", "> You can't survive without some sort of revenue model on that scale, though. Your server costs are going to be immense.\n\nFine, then clearly and plainly list the data they would need to collect and sell to pay for your account.\n\nThen offer the users a choice between having that data sold or for them to be able to opt out of the collection and sale of their data, if they wish to pay directly for their share of running the platform. Lack of payment (if chosen) will lock access, lack of payment for an extended period will delete the user account.\n\nNo, that might make too much sense.", 'Imagine being voted down for being reasonably suspicious of any large company', 'Apple won’t sell data as long as one of their biggest competitive advantages over Android is the privacy which allows them to charge a premium. But, the marketplace changes and without regulation the benevolent Apple can change that policy in a second.', 'The problem is that Apple is building a significant user base *because* of their stance on privacy. They’re doing it because it’s profitable and they stand to lose a lot more than they’d gain by going into the data collection business. Moreover, all their software and infrastructure today is written explicitly to anonymize and not collect data on their users, and their profits are from their hardware supply lines. That’s a huge technical undertaking to re-write nearly all their services from the ground up to make them no longer anonymize their users’ data.\n\nThat’s like saying “yeah, Target is a general store right now, but they might decide to become an adult products store in the future if the shareholders decide they want more profit”. It’s nonsensical because not only is a complete pivot in terms of the necessary infrastructure, it would alienate huge swaths of their customer base. I don’t think you realize just how different it is from a technical perspective to make money by collecting advertising data, it’s not just like they can flip a switch and go “ah, now we make money from this”.', "Yeah but it's all just for show. If they cared at all there would be plenty of other factors first. Like non proprietary chargers? Phones that can be repaired?", 'To me, that’s a quality and warranty distinction. \nI get that people want to take apart their phones. Apple consumers do not want to live in the world Android offers though.', 'I personally don’t trust independent repair. I’d rather repair where there is strict accountability and proper parts and proper warranty. I dont need no dodgy repairs tyvm.', 'All companies need to make money. Google makes money from selling your information, Apple makes money from repair bills. I’ll take paying $60 dollars for a battery once every three years for my privacy. But that’s just priorities if you need to save a little money here and there go with google and buy it with your privacy.', 'I can only speak for the time I worked there with Tim Cook as CEO. This is in their DNA and I challenge you to prove otherwise.', "And here's the follow-up you missed:\n\n>The lawsuit provided no evidence for its claims but argued that evidence would be uncovered during the discovery process. Apple said the claim was completely untrue and successfully argued for it to be dismissed without proceeding to trial.\n\nhttps://9to5mac.com/2019/11/26/accusing-apple-of-selling-customer-data/", 'Maybe public companies can tend towards prioritizing capital (as they seem to, I know all too well), but none are OBLIGATED to earn money.  In fact, companies often lose money, or take losses to invest in future growth, etc etc.  \n\nMy point is not the inherent building of profit in a capitalist enterprise (I could say plenty about that!), but that a company can choose to forgot profit for other options.  That they always choose profit speaks more to the managerial choices than the benefits/drawbacks of a large corporation.\n\nMany many companies choose many options.  Not all drive profit in the short term.  Some positive choices will drive profit too, and that doesn’t mean it was the motivation or intent either.', 'TBF, I just a week ago switched from decades of Androiding to iPhone (more or less forced to, long & stupid story).  I know a lot of the angst I\'m feeling now is due to having to unlearn some movements (no "back" button? Yikes!) and relearn others, but so far I\'m less than impressed.  For example, I just had to search on how to block a number that sent me a pro-trump campaign message. Incredibly non-intuitive (IMO). Another: I can\'t set various messaging options (tone, etc) from INSIDE MESSAGES. I have to go to Settings. Also, no way to modify the native keyboard? And custom keyboards don\'t show up in password-entering situations? Anyway, I\'ll shut up now before I really get ranting (I have a huge pet peeve against bad GUI.. having survived years of Lotus Notes). Hopefully in a few weeks I\'ll have calmed down :-)', 'I’m not a huge fan of Apple, but I can’t imagine people being very sympathetic to Facebook in this situation. I just meant if Apple made a big announcement about increased privacy (maybe they did?), no one would really believe them. Facebook saying this makes it feel like security really has been improved', 'You did a great job of mischaracterizing what I said while being really condescending. Great job. I bet you win lots of internet arguments with people who weren’t trying to argue', "My wife's Pixel 2 just stopped working. She had it just under 2 years. My 6s still kickin. Not that Apple hasn't tried to strong arm me with updates into a new phone, but her phone was garbage even when it was working. She constantly complained about missing and dropped calls along with weird glitches. Felt like owning a compaq, or worse, HP, all over again. She said it was a nice camera which sucked as a phone.  If I could get a Nokia or motorola with a 3rd party linux like OS, I would totally be one of those people. I really distain the wasteful culture of consumer electronics. Its a shameful waste of resources imo.", 'I think it comes from 2 places. One is the misguided loyalty you are describing and the other is the claim that they are charging more to be accessible on the platform. But this it how it was for ages and it worked for Apple who always built on a bottom up approach to PCs. Only in the past 15 or so years have they branches out with intel, Microsoft and concepts like boot camp. All of these things promote buggy software experiences and gaping security compromises. It’s not price fixing or a monopoly. You don’t like it, but an Android. I do wish there was another option like a Linux for phones, but I’m getting too old give that much time to righteousness anyways haha.', 'Did they have other big screw ups like this?', 'too restricted. And often you can get better for less.', '> They probably had to, for legal reasons. Just so no one can possibly find a way to hold them responsible for iPhone user downloading illegal torrent.\n\nThats really pulling straws man. There is no way in hell that such charge will ever apply or stick.\n\n> If someone illegally downloads copyrighted material to their iPhone then backs up their iPhone to iCloud it probably puts Apple in trouble for illegally hosting it.\n\nAgain, pulling straws. \n\nThere are worse shit on their servers already and they will simply do what they have done, report the users to the police.\n\n> Legal reasons doesn’t mean logical reasons tho\n\nLet a judge decide that.\n\nBy your logic, all devices that can access the internet should be this locked down and governed by the corporation.\n\nFuck, then the same logic should be applied to gun manufacturers!\n\nHow the hell can people kiss apple ass so blindly?', "I see that you have a bias against Synology going by your words and which ever your reasons are, they are yours.\n\nAlso, I never said that Synology made any statement or pointed fingers at Apple, so again, bias on your part.\n\nLastly, this is my third Synology and I don't agree that all their apps are shit, so again perhaps bias.\n\nIn the end, you are still missing or ignoring the point, a perfectly good app was removed for no good reason and that can happen to any other one.\n\nThat level of censorship is a big issue on the apple ecosystem.", "> They had no reason to do that you say? Are you not aware that most of the things that people torrent are absolutely illegal in most countries? \n\nAre you aware that the technology itself is actually used by multi billion companies?\n\nDo you know is one of the preferred methods of downloading Linux ISOs?\n\nSo now apple needs to act like my parent because I'm a little baby that needs help in making decisions?\n\n\n\n\n>They had a VERY good reason to get rid of the app.\n\nNo they didnt, but i can see that you are a rabid apple fanboi, so there is no reasoning with you, since on your eyes, they will never do anything wrong.", 'Thanks for proving my point...and coming out of the closet.', 'No incentive? Whatever business they are taking away from Facebook is theirs for the taking.\n\nThey are not protecting your privacy, they are taking control of your data.\n\nThey are not an altruistic company, this is a business decision.', 'Picture this: you can now cut the user data stream to a mayor advertising company and you, and only you, have control of that information. \n\nWould you sit idly on that information?\n\nKnowing the revenue it already generates? \n\nI am sure board members will surely agree that they have enough revenue streams and there is no need to make any more money thank you very much.', '>\tIf Apple takes a stance on privacy it’s because it will make them money in the long term.\n\nSounds like a win-win.', "They will absolutely drop it if it isn't financially beneficial.  I'm sure there are individual privacy advocates in the company, but the company as a whole (like all companies) exists to make money.\n\nThat doesn't mean we shouldn't encourage companies to do things that are good.  Doing so doesn't mean pretending they are saints (Apple is still a multinational conglomerate that has done and continues to do awful things), but showing the market that privacy wins business means other companies may choose to go that route as well (for the sake of profit).  \n\nThe more profitable this stance is, the harder they will lean in, and the more business they stand to loose by shifting away from this stance.  \n\nWe should also push for legislative change, because, as you pointed out, we can't depend on businesses to do the right thing when it isn't profitable, but having an option, even if it is only for market driven reasons, that helps with security a little bit, isn't a bad thing.", 'I’m saying people should be very suspicious when a corporation actually does a “good” thing. Maybe now instead of FB collecting our info it will just be Apple on an even bigger scale.', '>>\tThe closest you can (generally) get is a one-time payment including up to 1 year of updates and support, with an annual payment for updates and on-going support.\n>\n>I don’t need support for an app costing a buck.\nYet if you read reviews of any popular app you will see many reviews of people getting all antsy cos the $1 app doesnt work any more.\n\n>\n>>\tAd-revenue is basically the same as a paid-for subscription, except it is paid for by the advertizors.\n>\n>Correct. I dislike both.\nGotcha. You think all apps should be state funded then?', "There only one fanboy here man and it ain't me. I don't use my phone as a workstation, but I do have hobbies that are made better by accompanying apps, many of which are fan/community created, and not hosted on the all store.\n\nI don't have any allegiance to android/google, I didn't even elude to that, just highlighted reasons I have chosen android over iOS.\n\nWhat a fucking tool.", 'That\'s a copypasta right? Where\'s the /s?\n\nHe said computer in a very generic "computing device" context.  But you know he\'s right on all points which is why you went to attacking him. \n\niPhone is a controlled ecosystem which means higher compatibility across different hardware and library updates. It\'s easier to use because there are less options to confuse end users.\n\nAndroids are much more complex but that makes power users feel like they have more control. You can\'t just upload custom ringtones to an iPhone. That drives people crazy. \n\nHe\'s not talking about g-apps. There are reasons to download apks that are not piracy. Amazon\'s app store is a custom apk, Google won\'t host it. Pornhub is probably  more popular than pirating video games, and it\'s another apk not hosted on Google app store.\n\nThe new Android hardware is slick and the os is snappy. I can say the same for the iPhone. Exploding batteries and overheating shitphones are gone. Just don\'t buy $200 Android KitKat devices and you\'ll be fine. I would also tell people not to get an iPhone 4.', 'He can use his phone as a computer!  He can email!  He can surf the web!  He can listen to music!  It’s amazing 😉', 'You\'re conflating "targeted ad" with "the means by which they target ads". Those are separate things.\n\n**in·tru·sive**  \n*adj*  \n1. Causing disruption or annoyance through being unwelcome or uninvited.\n\nBy definition, targeted ads are *less intrusive*, because they\'re less annoying. I don\'t want to see ads for tampons: I don\'t have a vagina.\n\nAs for the *means* by which they target ads, i.e. data collection, I don\'t find that intrusive either. It\'s done completely transparently, without disrupting anything I do, by robots. Google\'s bots have been reading my email for well over a decade. The sky hasn\'t fallen. \n\nOn the contrary, it\'s provided great value to me.  Instead of ads for menopause medication, I get ads for videogames, musical gear, and other things I\'m interested in. I\'ve actually discovered some of my favorite things through those (like [Manipulator](https://polyversemusic.com/products/manipulator/), one of my new favorite music-making tools).\n\nThe fear mongering is hand-wavey bullshit.  I\'ve been downvoted as expected, but also as expected, nobody\'s made a single coherent argument for why. I\'ve got one person insisting I should be "ashamed", which is just cringeworthy.', "You're just repeating what you already said: your opinion has no rational basis.\n\n> shame on you for wanting advertisers to know who you are \n\nThere's nothing to be ashamed of. There's nothing morally wrong with wanting that. \n\nI want my hairdresser, real estate agent, doctor, dentist, so on and so forth to know me was well, because that allows them to better serve me. Should I be ashamed of that as well?", 'Man, I have a Xs that I bought just before the 11 came out. Before that I had a 6s and a 4s. I can’t imagine having switched phones as many times as you did in the same amount of time. I’ll likely be keeping this one until the 13, or whatever equivalent name is, comes out.', 'Agreed. For my smartphone history, I literally have/had the Samsung Galaxy S, S4, S9, and am now seriously considering an Apple for my next purchase.', "I'm the only remaining Android user in my family. I always said I'd never buy Apple because of (in my opinion) their overpriced garbage and not caring about the customer. It seems things have changed. \n\n\nSo... I have privacy concerns (I don't do anything seedy, I just don't like being tracked) but I use a Pixel phone. How safe are Apple phones really? I remember all these iCloud hacks, is that still an issue?\n\nI'm not sure I *really* want to go Apple but I don't know what my best options are. Any advice is appreciated :)", 'Just trash after trash. Glad you got some quality now', 'Long time android fanboy here. Thinking of switching to Apple myself haha. Ive never owned an apple product. The only thing thats holding me back is that if i have an apple phone it basically wont interact with anything non-apple.\n\nEdit : like for one exame, will it work with a regular smart watch and regular bluetooth headphones or you gotta buy that shit from Apple?', 'Personally, I agree with this guy.\n\nhttps://www.reddit.com/r/technology/comments/ihlw91/-/g31ibae', "What's the worst/hardest part? Thinking of switching over after 12 years of Android.", 'That’s my point right there. I could spend a lot more if I felt secure spending it and being marketed stuff I don’t care for.', 'I mean, as long as you still have an android device you can still use some of those apps at home and stuff but yeah, the SE being priced the way it is finally convinced me to upgrade my 6s that I was holding onto forever. Apple has been making some surprisingly consumer friendly moves lately.', "To be fair, LG nearly killed the android platform for me. Fuck LG. I was a brand loyalist and got fucked hard by the V40. \n\n\n...I mean I'm a Samsung Note user now, but nonetheless. SHAME LG. SHAAAAAAME.", "I've been thinking about doing the same, but it's the app purchases that convince me otherwise. \n\nAlthough I bet that most of the app I never really use often that I paid for.", "If iOS wasn't so horribly locked down, I'd be very willing to switch over. As of now, my best bet seems to be LineageOS without Play services.\n\nAlthough an Android phone without Play services isn't ideal either.", 'one of us, one of us!\n\nlol I did the same, but a few generations ago.', 'Jeebus. My first iPhone was a 6+ and that’s what I still have. I’m hoping it’ll do me a few years yet.', ">it's a small price to pay...\n\nfor salvation.", "I LOVE my LG G7! I'm awaiting the 5G market for T-Mobile, and keeping this bad boy until then.", 'How much would you pay if your purchases could be transferred to IOS \n\n*folds entrepreneurial hands together thoughtfully*', 'That stance is part of why I switched years ago, but be aware of the Epic Games lawsuit, because if they win, Apple will be forced to open iOS up like Android is when it comes to app installs.', 'I keep saying that I will never switch because of all the apps that I own on android but the reality is that I only use reddit and YouTube vanced.', 'The multi-international I work for specifically uses Apple phones *because of the security*.', 'Same here. I wouldn’t think about switching from Apple because of this very same reason.', "I've been a long time Android user, and I'm thinking of switching once the 12 comes out. Hoping to catch the 11 or maybe an 11 Pro on a decent sale. Right now I have a Note 10 that I adore, but ultimately I think the longevity of iOS, and now these privacy stances, are enough for me to switch.", 'just wanted to remark how similar my journey is to yours.\n\nI went from 4s to 5s to a Galaxy s7, Lg g6, Lg G7 to an Apple 11- getting used to it, but really happy and looking forward to ios 14', "If I wouldn't hate iOS so much I would probably switch as well.", 'Years of app purchases you say?\n\nThat’s what, about $4 for lost people. 😂', 'What about email address, no Gmail?', 'That was 100% of why I switched to Apple. I’m not a huge fan of the UX, I think they are complicit in a lot of atrocities of production overseas, but I genuinely believe they at least have their customers best interests in mind. Tim Apple has lead pretty damn well.', "I've never purchased an app. (cause I'm on a PC all day long, the phone is just for... phone and navigation and messaging) \n\nAnyway -- What are the good apps?", 'I just switched from a note 10+ to an iPhone 11 last week. Ive been an android guy from day 1 but if im paying close to $1000 for a phone goddammit im not waiting 3 minutes for spotify to fucking open. Plus my Gps and bluetooth kept acting up after 6 months. I’ll admit that the note 10 was definatelty more productive and helped multitask with pic-in-pic and the pen for documents and such but the iphone seemingly works across the board from minute 1. Plus the 11 was cheaper lmao', 'If you\'ve taken apple\'s side because "they\'re good for privacy" you\'re not very smart. They\'re trying to actually milk your money. While google basically just wants all your info and then milk the advertisers, apple will sell your data within their eco system, which they have an iron grip on. Don\'t get me wrong what they did in court with the FBI was very impressive but touting them as some pioneer of privacy? Lol. And don\'t forget if apple gets breached it\'s a huuuuuge shitshow. Maybe you remember the fappening? Yeah a lot of celebreties got their nudes leaked because apple\'s iCloud got breached.', "I'm like you, my last iPhone was the 5s and I switched to the note 5, note 8, now the Asus ROG. I unno if I'll switch back tho, only because I can do so much more on these Android's, I can also take measures to protect myself from any spyware like I can on a normal sized computer, I can also switch on my VPN ghoster too when I feel like it.  Can also root my phone if I so please and get a different OS loaded onto the phone too. It's just hard to give up and go back to something so restrictive. Ya know?", "So many phones... I'm typing this on my 4s.", 'I work in adtech. It’s not that Apple wants to give you more privacy. It’s that they just want to be the only one that owns your data and sells you shit. Apple is a walled garden. Hulu is a walled garden. And Facebook is a walled garden. It’s fruitful in the middle because ONLY they own your data. People are really getting hoodwinked and Apple is whistling all the way to the bank.', "I've never had an iPhone. But I'm getting an iPhone next", 'The swiping takes a minute to get used to, but let someone hand you a old iPhone and it’s back to flailing. It didn’t take long to forget about the home button at all.', "I'm going to switch back to Apple when I'm done my S10  contract specifically for privacy", 'I want to switch to apple for the watch.', "easy solution don't purchase apps. \n\nI haven't run into an issue where I needed to buy an app to solve it in my life... ever...", 'The Reddit circlejerk is MASSIVELY anti Apple but try an iPhone. I was a staunch Android-only user for so many years but since switching I cannot go back. It\'s so nice to have a phone that doesn\'t have something wrong with it *all the time*, and I\'ve had flagship phones from every big manufacturer. I switched back when the Google Pixel came out. Walked out of the store and the devic restarted in my hand. Then I had no sound until I rebooted it again. "Welcome back to Android."\n\nHaven\'t made that mistake again.', 'You can do the same thing on Android', 'Look at the iPhone SE. $400', '> I just made another comment saying apple should release a "budget" brand and advertise it by its security. I know that isn\'t apple\'s style. \n\nApples style always will be to support only one IOS for all iPhones. There will not be an IOS Private Edition or an IOS Economic Edition.', 'How did a carrier swap cause problems on your phone? The handset should have nothing to do with it.', "If you're mostly concerned with privacy, you could get a Pixel with Graphene OS. It's very privacy and security oriented, which means most social media apps won't work, but you can use their mobile websites. Other apps night but work as well, but you can usually find alternatives.", 'iPhone SE is $400', "I was messaging my friendcon whatsapp about pizza hut and YouTube played me pizza hut ads for a week straight. \n\nI've never had it that bad before.", 'What makes this move so powerful for Apple is the fact that Android could never make this step a reality because it contradicts their goal of providing an operating system. Google although less scummy than Facebook that based their business model around ads.', "> I'm honestly surprised that the unique ID was obtainable between apps or even from an app. \n\nThis is a feature, not a bug. Apple created IDFA (ID for Advertisers) specifically to let them track users between apps. They've merely adopted privacy as a marketing strategy more recently.", 'To be fair, nobody really “needs” anything. People set up this false premise that nobody disagrees with to make the actual statement they make feel more convincing, which is that marketing is scummy and companies only care about the bottom line. \n\nMarketing might be scummy and companies do only care about the bottom line. But it’s probably not because people don’t need things, because that would make everything scummy. \n\nI spent a short time in market research. There are two broad sections of marketing:\n\n1.\tMaking promises to people for things that they would like. \n2.\tFulfilling that promise in a satisfactory way. \n\nWhen one of the two things fail (on average, not to individual consumers), then we consider that to be a poor marketing campaign. \n\nOn your other statement, I disagree that we should rely on the goodness of the heart of the companies. Its typically a good thing in a capitalistic economy that companies are compelled only by money and law, because at least we know where they stand.\n\nIt’s up to us to keep companies in line, by directing our funds to companies that behave in the ways we want them to, and also by passing laws that compel them to. Facebook gets away with so much precisely because we don’t pay them directly and we can’t seem to pass laws to control their behaviour. \n\nOn the other hand, if Apple does things consumers like, we should reward them by purchasing their products. That is the only way to ensure that they will keep doing it.', 'Yeah, definitely that to an extent. Apple tends to.be the anomaly in marketing, they\'re very different in some ways, and some.of the things they have done, traditionally wouldn\'t be successful..l but they stayed ahead of the curve.\n\nTraditional knowledge in marketing is that you can\'t make someone "need" something. But you can definitely make them "want" it to the point of feeling like they need it.', 'I love Android, I switched to iPhone two years ago because Google has really been steaming my goat. \n\nUntil Google gets its act together, no more android for me.', "I mean... It is. You're not wrong.", "Yeah, that's fair.", 'Marketing school.', "I second this suggestion, and install it on every android device you own.\n\nMake sure to download the apk directly from [their website](https://blokada.org/index.html) and sideload it. The light version on the play store only changes DNS lookup locally; Google won't allow the full version on the store since it ~~hurts their bottom line~~ violates store guidelines. It's open source and the devs earn their living through an optional premium VPN subscription.", 'Solid recommendation, thanks', "I just use the adguard dns. It blocks the vast majority of ads from my experience, and it's super simple to set up on android.", 'I\'ve been using Blokada for a long time now. I get a warm fuzzy feeling every time I open a news article and there are Ad spaces all over, all with "Error loading webpage: doubleclick.net: DOMAIN_NOT_FOUND" \n\nSo that kind of makes up for Google\'s lack of tracking permissions features that iOS is introducing. \n\nBut I have to add that the 2 are complimentary. iOS 14 stops Facebooj from TRACKING you. But you will still see random ads. Blockada can\'t stop anyone from gathering your data, but the ads that you get served are blocked at the DNS level.\n\nIn an ideal world, we would have both.', 'Google itself collects more data than anyone else.', 'Look at the new iPhone SE. all the security, half the price.', "They could start abusing users' trust, but that would be a short-term boost, and they'd become like every other information gathering tech company afterwards. Their business model now is fundamentally in line with user interest, unlike Google and Facebook. And it seems to be working pretty well for them. \n\nAlso, I can't help but believe that people would rather work for a hardware company than an advertising company. I mean, talented engineers are always in demand -- if you are going to be comfortable anyway, how much of a pay bump do you need to go from a company that is selling people stuff they want, to one that is spying on people. \n\nI'd much rather work for an Apple, AMD, Intel, or even Microsoft than somewhere like Facebook or Google.", "As a Pixel owner, people over in r/GooglePixel are willfully ignorant of the fact that Google is an ad company first and foremost and their hardware is just to get data. They have absolute shit customer service - there is a dedicated Google customer support account for /r/GooglePixel that is there to help people when their customer support line fails people. You wouldn't need an account dedicated to helping people your support fails if your support was worth a damn to begin with.\n\nAnd if I had a dime for every story posted over there right after their flagship starts shipping about FedEx stealing phones and then Google and FedEx both saying it's the other's responsibility and leaving the customer with no phone and $1k poorer, I'd probably be able to buy their flagship Pixels on release day in cash for the rest of eternity.\n\nI love my Pixels, my OG XL is still working, but Google is shit. Good Pixels get released *despite* Google, not because of them.", 'But it’s not a look, they really do that.. there a business, of course they want to make money, they also want a secure product. You look at MacOS 10.15 the Security is so grainular, each app is requesting resources from the computer, along with a few other things and you see why their ages ahead of winders', "If you did the same, you'd notice that I already knew that.", 'Yah I’m not in the game of making easy money. Because it rarely happens. My life style is simple even if my incomes can accommodate a lavish life style. \n\nI’m all about slowly making money to create a safety net when I’m older. Im a “set it  and forget it” type of investor. If I’m having to sell and buy stocks constantly I’m doing Something wrong.', 'Oh yeah, that’s what I meant. I got the word they used on themselves during that keynote.', ">This doesn't mean google sells my data, it means it collects and uses my data\n\nThat's correct, same as Facebook. Advertisers never actually see the data, they're just able to target ads based on the data. So for example, an advertiser can run ads to people aged 20-30 who like technology, but they can't download a list of the things someone likes, nor can they download a list of people that like technology.", 'Google doesn’t sell your data and neither does Facebook, when people say they sell your data it’s because they power their engines with it, technically making you the product indirectly, and the target directly.', "Yeah I'd be surprised if any of these companies were literally selling user's data. Apart from the ethics, it would literally be selling off their competitive advantage. It's like selling the goose that lays the golden eggs.", 'You’ve paid for google search. You pay with your personal data which google then sells.', 'That’s one of the services I mentioned.', 'Pssst... Google does that too.', 'Apple is worth $2T and has $200B in cash. That’s just  cash in banks. \n\nThere’s literally no market they couldn’t enter and dominate if they wanted.', 'That’s a stretch. Apple makes an insignificant amount of revenue off ads. Revenue: consumer products, software, direct and indirect media, and app ecosystem. For all of those, there are powerful negative incentives to Apple sharing customers’ data with third parties. \n\nGoogle and Facebook are clear, direct competitors in the same business. They sell data about their users to their customers.', 'In that they are both _Companies_ I guess', 'Even that, Apple wants your money, Google wants your attention.', 'Sorry, I meant that they at least allow you to opt out, which I have. For whatever reason though, I keep getting bombarded with ads for the Epoch Times, Trump PACs, pick-up artist shit, stuff like that. Like just because I don’t want my data tracked means I’m some conspiracy theorist loner that is a radical incel or something.', '> You can already opt out of personalized advertising from Google\n\nDenying the benefits of datamining user data is in no way what users wanted, and just serves for google to pretend it wasnt being done - is there a way to opt out of the datamining itself ?', 'The current internet isn\'t free. It is paid for using browsing information. Their business model is depended on (charitably) finding a way to combine that information into something useful, or (less charitably) leveraging the fact that people don\'t know the value of their information, and are willing to give it away cheaply as a result. \n\nI\'m not sure what you mean by open in this case. \n\nJust a note: generally, the phrase "open, free" is quite close to the phrase "free, open" used by the free/open source community. I think we should avoid mixing those two up, because these are quite different circumstances.', "I've always had them disbabled and nothing has every been broken.", 'But uh... A ton of people using Google search, and a ton of websites use Google analytics, and a ton of places use AMP...\n\nGoogle doesn\'t need it to be their "site" to track you. They already know your search history and what links you clicked. Chances are, the site you visited has Google analytics or amp enabled. \n\nYou\'d be hard pressed to really escape them.', "it only matters when android releases Chrome desktop features with the mobile version.  they aren't the same.  doesn't matter on Apple because safari", "I mean, eventually, with the advances in AI, they probably don't even need you. They'll just create a chat bot for you to entertain the other narcissists.", 'Yes but the US political spectrum starts in the middle at the moment. Even Sanders who by American standards was insanely left wing comes in at just a smidge left of centre by global standards.', "You're forgetting that the DNC is closer to being moderate than actually liberal", 'Hey hey, im actually right wing and live downtown toronto bud. I work in alberta from time to time. Go find yourself a Canadian church going conservative from Alberta that is against abortion\n\nRemeber when there was no debates when we legalized weed? \n\nGay marriage got a bit of push back, but nothing official.\n\nRight wing Albertins are MUCH different compaired to rightbwing americans', "I can't tell if you're being sarcastic?", 'Imagine thinking you can only vote red or blue.', 'Cool, I’m kinda busy though. Would you mind giving him my social so we can get this ball rolling? It’s 809-34-1212, thanks bunches.', 'Source, please?', 'If you haven’t seen the [Simpsons overdub](https://youtu.be/8u-vYWOPWUg) it’s pretty funny.', "Oh boy. Calm down. Re-read the quotes in the article. They still seem off to me. And I'm referring to quotes in the article, if you didn't understand it the first time I said it.", 'It\'s too bad that Facebook responded about this and made it into a nice joke for us instead of the millions of businesses who will lose their reach over this. Facebook\'s infrastructure is not even nearly the only one that uses IDFA so this move is definitely not about just Facebook in any way but this article really wants you to think it is. \n\nIts also absurd for the a phone company to be deciding massive consequences for a separate social media company\'s business practices, but they aren\'t, they are creating consequences for everybody\'s business practices.\n\n\nIt\'s nice to have a demonized figure to be able to do anything to, thats why this is so easy to sell as "against facebook" and "for you." This is 100% about the ads for Tim Cook. This is a hugely calculated political and social move to grab more market power at the same time as shutting out his competition in a huge way while getting a big pat on the back as a hero of privacy. Is this struggle with Facebook (and apparently all advtertisers) really a new problem, why did it take until Late 2020 to have this piece of the device turned off by default with an opt-in option? That would have been brilliant feature when the IDFA was introduced, then people would know how to use it.', 'Unfortunately, this post has been removed. Facebook links are not allowed by /r/technology.\n\n*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/technology) if you have any questions or concerns.*', 'I\'ll be even more direct. My question was rhetorical. I know OPs quote would mislead people so I asked the question to get people to think critically instead of just "lol suck burn". What you say is true but at least I\'m trying to clean up the mess rather than ripping apart those who bothers to ask the question.', 'They are all annoying', 'which means people will start pay less to post ads because they wont receive the same targeting and facebook loses profit', 'Data doesn’t stay current.  They can build fairly accurate projections with what they have I’m sure.  But it will never be real time like it was.  So it’s a win in my book.', 'Ads that aren’t targeted aren’t as profitable. That’s what fb is bitching about. I don’t understand ads completely but I have a little understanding from using AdMob in a couple Android apps I made back in the day. View an ad - platform gets paid. Click on an ad - platform gets paid more. Buy something after clicking on an ad - platform gets even more. So, if ads are not targeted they won’t reach as big of an audience as they want, meaning less meaningful clicks meaning less profit. So yes, fb users will still see ads, but fb profits will be hurt as they won’t reach as many people as they would have otherwise. I don’t think it would be annoying. It makes me feel good looking at an ad and thinking “you fuckers are way off base, and I like it”.', 'apple is being a lot more forceful and universal about it though. Facebook expects up to a 50% loss of revenue.', 'And occulus which will in fact require you to log in to a Facebook account to use your device.', 'Or, you can go look at who owns what company and realize to not use Instagram and WhatsApp. I purposefully steered away from them because I knew they were owned by Zucker-douche.', 'NO SHIT! but why does everyone just accept it?', 'Not if you block their JavaScript that runs on other websites.', "plenty of us recognize how fucking shitty zuck is and take active steps to avoid all thinga Facebook.  not saying it's easy but you can exist without them and take steps to keep them locked away from you.", "I actively avoid all things Facebook and have add-ons to limit their interaction in my browser.     oculus-  the owner admitted he was misled and lied to the public when he said they'd never require a login.    don't have an Instagram, whatsapp or anything owned by Facebook. not saying it's easy but you don't have to just accept their invasion in your life.", 'Back in the day the difference between Chrome and everything else was night and day', "Better privacy, and chances are all your extensions have a Firefox version as well.  There may also be ways to convert your bookmarks, I'd say that might be the hardest part of switching.   Firefox also has lot of neat developer tools built in if you're into that.", 'Oh I mean I never figured out how to make it work right.  Always ended up with broken websites and stuff.', "Oh, nice. I didn't realize it was per tab. I'll check it out again. Cheers.", 'The whole point is to tell people to give a shit and give them a reason to give a shit.', 'Dunno how to tell you...\n\nBut when you open Whatsapp or Instagram, you get a little text under the logo saying Facebook...', '"I dont care why should anyone else?"', 'Insta was supposed to be something like 500px. It was never really supposed to be a while discussion community group thing. Then it got facebookified.', 'So how do they make money? Do they have some premium tier services?', 'Yup, moved to telegram, but only 5 other people came so now I have two messaging apps instead of one.', 'It means they collect your data and then allow advertisers to say "I\'d like to target white male gamers", and Facebook includes you in that ad campaign because you are a white male gamer.\n\nAnd somehow that\'s spooky and you should be worried? Facebook isn\'t collecting information on you for blackmail or something, Facebook is an advertising company, their business is advertising, that\'s all they do.', "Would you expect Facebook to provide Facebook as a charity service? They would lose money and wouldn't be able to operate. If you aren't paying a fee and it requires server space for you to use the product, then you are paying in your data, that's how it's always worked.", 'Haha I actually don’t recall that one, although being from the Midwest in the US has something to do with it. I’m wondering when Stadia is going to get the axe, I feel like all I’ve ever heard are terrible things about it. Though I’ve also heard google is just as bad with privacy stuff as Facebook so even if they had come out on top I think we’d be in a similar boat as now', "Yeah I've got close. However the flip side is they are family and sometimes I get news there about them and other family members", 'My newsfeed is all updates I really want to hear about. It took a lot of unfollow/unfriend/unfollow/etc, but it was worth it.', "My uncle started sharing anti Michelle Obama stuff from a person who's a member of a hate group and links to the KKK...... Which is really odd as we're in the UK. My Aunts fallen for the whole proms thing and is now demanding that it have subtitles so she can sing at the TV to show BLM.... Fucking madness", "The default is a non-chronological feed of only what Facebook thinks will engage you, what the groups you've liked have paid to promote, or what advertising groups have paid to show you. If you change to a chronological feed of everyone you follow then it will change back to non-chronological next time you access Facebook. You still can't view posts from groups you like (e.g. music bands) unless they pay. You can't get rid of the advertising which is often political, deceptive and designed to get you to click on them.", 'I wish i had control. I stopped using it because my facebook chose to show me a select 50 people out of 300 i had. It would choose to show me weeks old posts from this small circle instead of my close friend\'s newborn daughter. I actually talked to this friend more than most of my fb friends but his stuff would never show. I tried going the "see less from" route for those ppl but facebook began to show me their interactions on pages like i give a shit how many likes they give. It sucked lol', 'I’m exercising that control by not using Facebook', 'The only way to control what content you see on a proprietary platform like Facebook or Reddit is not to use them at all.', '> It’s not about removing and disconnecting from social media altogether but it’s about filtering what you see and hear.\n\nWait...am I reading a Reddit post or a dystopian novel?', "I just don't want the connection to people. Maybe I'm cynical, but I don't want to see updates about people's lives daily. If I lose touch.. I lose touch. I want to have conversation. Or see people (post COVID anyway). Facebook was just a way to see people posting their happy moments and that's generally it, just too intrusive for my taste. I didn't have the toxic stuff in my feed. I deleted it 3 years ago and am happy I did it. But it definitely wasn't ruining my life or anything.", "Usually the friends aren't the problem, it's the people commenting on the friends posts, or on the liked pages posts.", "I agree, it has become the norm to shift responsibility from the end user to the platform. End users seem to want to be able to post whatever the hell they want yet at the same time get upset when others do the same thing and it shows up on their feeds.\n\nThings do not work that way, you cannot have selective freedom of speech, that's what a dictatorship does.", 'wait... apps have WEBSITES!?!?', "Not the one above but I agree with him. I've had facebook since 2008 back when I was 17 and I still have it today at almost 30. I have everyone from high school friends to family members and from regular friends on old coworkers on it, I don't have any issues like those. \n\nNobody forces you to read the propaganda posted on their virtual soapbox. Mute some, limit some more, hell even remove a few others, facebook is just what you make it. \n\n\nIt's the equivalent of not customizing your reddit experience and saying that it's reddit's fault", 'I\'m slowly pushing 30 too, 2 years off to be exact and so are my "friends" on Facebook. These folks are posting propaganda and some mind boggling things as well, but as you said, "no one\'s listening because they\'re not saying anything worthwhile." Let them keep talking. I may block out 95% of my Facebook experience but the positive 5% is enough for me to keep it around.', 'Maybe spending so much time muting and blocking people the last few years is what did it? I dove deep into it, advocating for it over Myspace way back when. It was legit a solid product. Now it feels like 1998 Yahoo. They have no reason to make a better product.', 'Why people downvoting you lol. \n\nUnfriend people who post toxic shit \n\nIf it’s a family member then just mute them if you wanna avoid an awkward conversation.', "For me it isn't about the content.  But my personal well-being of reading too much or in-between the lines of my family and friend posts.  Like, oh I didn't respond to their family photo.  Oh he's so lucky he's getting married, and I'm here single.  Oh here's a nice watch I'll never afford.   I realized I was already interacting with people I really cared about and everything else was just bringing unnecessary anxiety.  I still have it for the occasional shops and events that are fb only, but my account is essentially dead.  My family knows and it's fine.  1/2 of my friends aren't on anymore and the other half doesn't have time for regular posting.  I'd rather spend 5 minutes communicating directly with a few I care about than spending 5 min reading/watching those I don't.  FB can be good, but my life is better ignoring it.", "For me it's family members that find you and add you, and they constantly post toxic political bs. You can't really block them without causing family drama. Facebook also clutters your feed with ads and viral videos. I don't really use it and mostly only keep it for the memories, since back in the day it was mostly used as a journal/diary.", 'Do you hit the "watch" button on the bottom? cause right now the first post I see is right wing content, Black Trump Supporter reacting to videos in his maga hat.... scroll down to see Republican ads, Black Republican maga ads being pitched to me even though i never click them other than to hide them. In fact I only use facebook for the marketplace. I had one racist person message me about a product so I reported and blocked them. Now the right wing content is pouring out and trying to make me hate my own people lol.', 'Yeah same, kenosha was last straw for me. And mine wasn’t too toxic either. We got this!', "> but I found I was becoming a brooding asshole.  I'd rant to my wife about injustice that I couldn't do shit about,\n\nI have never touched Facebook, but I feel like I might be heading towards the same direction with Reddit.\n\nBy now I have at least two relatives who are very actively annoyed whenever I bring up my concern over US politics or China. Unless it's something funny about what Trump did bad again, then they're all amused and interested. (None of us being in the US, by the by.)\n\nThen again, the very least I can do about 'the injustice that I couldn't do shit about' is to keep everyone in my social circle acutely informed. Steering people away from buying Chinese, and influencing them to vote for partys that share the same concerns. \n\nI mean, that effort can't be for nothing, right? Riiiight?", 'And that’s exactly why Facebook will never die', 'yes, but "Delete all your media, posts, comments, pics, etc. manually before you delete your account. The internet is written in ink not pencil and once it’s up there’s no erasing it for good, but even so it’s good to delete all your account info"\n\nDoesn\'t actually erase that information in the dark bowels of Facebook. These systems have moved beyond storage dumps. Even if you do the above today, your data lives on in their systems.\n\nIt\'s like, if you Die today, people don\'t suddenly forget who you are.', '> /S\n\nHis post wasn\'t edited, so you must have missed that bit at the end :P\n\n(Explanation in case of confusion (including 3rd party readers): /s or /S is an abbreviation for "/sarcasm", and is occasionally appended after a seemingly controversial or ridiculous statement to denote an emphasized and heavily sarcastic tone. Exactly to avoid the whole issue about sarcasm being hard to distinguish with voice tone and facial expression.)', 'Ye, and his point is that innovation can also come at the (obfuscated) detriment of the consumer, for the sole profit of the enterprise.', 'Gotcha. Yeah you’re right about Oculus being the first company to really bring modern day VR. That’s great! Did some more research into this though. Oculus was an independent company that launched their Kickstarter in 2012! Facebook then bought them in 2014. Does that make Facebook innovative? Having a lot of money to buy something? I’d say no. No way. There were multiple other companies looking at Oculus at the time and I wouldn’t consider any of them innovative had they paid money for an idea that had already been kickstarted and proof of concepted either.', "You're 100% correct, but you're also incorrect.\n\nEverything these days is a partisan issue...\n\nAnd that's horribly stupid.", "Did you miss the whole Cambridge Analytica scandal? They basically don't care who gets your personalized data. And that was like the fifteenth time they've been caught selling or allowing access to non-anonymized data. And they've basically said they're going to keep doing it.\n\nEven now if I go to advertise on Facebook I get to see who did what on my page. I can tell you how many of my site fans say they're in relationships with the Facebook API. I can easily learn the city people live, when they have a birthday, etc.\n\nIf you don't think someone is harvesting your city and likes/interests then cross referencing the phone book to sell mailing lists, you're crazy. If you don't lock your profile down some of your physical mail is probably an extension of Facebook not giving a shit.\n\nGoogle absolutely harvests your personal info. They're using Chrome, your Google search history, Gmail, Hangouts, Android, and a lot more besides. They make permissions for Assistant overly broad to force you to give them access to use simple features. I am extremely uncomfortable with this, and I don't trust them. I switched to Firefox and telegram, but I've been unable to completely keep Google away.\n\nThe difference is Google has always tried to keep details anonymous. You advertise to people who search/searched for something, have a specific interest, or are in an 'in market segment' (looking to buy something). It's extremely hard to figure out who these people are. \n\nFor sure, though, there is an extremely creepy and detailed profile over at Google tied to your name and Google account. For people who don't block any tracking and are into Google products that includes their name, Google search history, where they've been, who their frequent contacts are (friends and family), what they're interested in, what they've been buying recently, what they search for when they're in incognito, and so on. Basically everything you do online, with your phone, or while carrying your phone.\n\nIt's foolish to trust Google, but Facebook gives no shits about your privacy.", "Yes. But unlike Google, Facebook gives away user data like it's nothing.", "I'd like to make a full corporate alignment chart sometime but I feel like I'd get some of it wrong", 'Nope not any company. Only apple, the one good company that does no wrong /s', "What are you talking about Apple collects a ton of data from its users they just store it internally don't sell it and the companies they do share it with are incredibly limited", 'Well there’s a trade off there. If they chose to switch to usb c I’m sure that everyone would need to buy a new cable creating much more waste. I believe they are waiting for port less so they don’t create more waste', 'What if you had the knowledge and know-how to do it yourself? In the last decade, Apple has basically made it near-impossible to even open their laptops. I’ve held onto my 2012 MBP simply because I can still get into it.', 'You do know "their licensed handlers" are a joke right? You know how they "repair" broken keyboards? Rip them out, throw them away and install a new one. These licensed people very rarely know what they\'re doing and even if they don\'t repair anything. They switch to a new part. Watch some of Louis Rossman videos, an independent repair guy with insane knowledge and see how apple treats him. They sued him for showing people how to repair their MacBook motherboards.', 'Independent repair is your only solution after your device is no longer supported after 5-6 years. You won’t be able to repair any non TB retina MBP soon. So if you want to repair your Retina MBP which is still quite fast and reliable you have to either throw it away (and throw a lot of money at Apple for a new one) or go to a third party, repair your device for $200-300 and are good to go for another few years. Apple board repairs are extremely difficult and  usually only offered by technicians who know what they do. Their shops will always give you a 1 year warranty, so that’s not a problem either. Apple service providers are only useful as long as you are within your warranty or have Apple care. After that they will always urge you to buy a new device by quoting extremely high repair costs (like a $1000 logic board replacement for a broken $2 transistor).', 'They still have to make money eventually.  A company that just plans to have millions of dollars in expenses and zero revenue forever is no company at all.\n\n\nThey can do it ethically and ask for  permission if they want, but the only option if they want to keep it free for the users, is to sell the users. And if you have to pay, Facebook will no longer be Facebook. That would pretty much be the end. \n\nThey make one single promise when you sign up, and that’s that Facebook will be free, for everyone, forever.', "Public companies have a fiduciary responsibility to shareholders to maximise return. Companies can be sued if they wilfully take a hit, so they actually are obligated. Losing money through plans of future growth isn't a moral standpoint, it's ultimately profit driven.", 'Switching is...an experience indeed.\nI’ve done it some time ago, after being an Android user my entire life.\n\nThere is a great drop in terms of customisation options available, but I’m telling myself most of them are a benefit brought to my privacy. Other design decisions just make little sense, and I’ve grown accustomed to accepting them. Apple’s ideology is that all apps settings should reside under the general Settings menu 🤷🏻\u200d♂️ \n\nOverall, I’ve learned how to use the ecosystem and I feel much quicker than in Android. I also find my current iPhone 8 more reliable than any previous phone I’ve ever owned, after 3,5 years of usage\n\nBut I agree it’s not perfect and, just as with most other things, it has to fit your way of being.\n\nI hope your frustration will wear off quickly, whether you get used to it or just toss your current phone and return to Android', "What the fuck are you talking about\n\nLiterally nobody is arguing or trying to win any arguments here\n\nIf you think my comment was condescending, I don't know what to tell you. Maybe take Reddit comments a little less seriously ?", 'I totally agree with the waste point.\n\nI try to keep my phones until they break. Also I’d rather spend 1000 on some nice vacation meals instead of a phone every year. If vacations are a thing again haha', 'Better for less is relative. Restrictive? That’s what its all about. I’d rather have ownership over content and peace of mind with privacy. I will continue to pay the premium for that alone.', 'Oh they probably can deal with child porn and criminal court no problem. \n\nThe problem is getting sued in civil court by Universal Studios and their team of 3,000 lawyers, for $50,000 in damages. Per user per device per file per server per minutes it was online.', 'As I already mentioned, we have no idea if Apple actually removed the app or if Synology removed the app and claimed Apple removed it. You  nonchalant claiming of other bias leads me to believe this is a common tactic that you utilize when pushing your half truth agenda and own biases.\n\nI’ll whip up a quick script tonight to go through your comment history and see how often you mention “bias”, Apple, Synology to try and confirm my suspicions', 'Wow. Is “gay” an insult in 2020? I guess if you’re a troglodyte or 12 years old.', 'Yes, a business decision to market their products to people that care about this sort of thing, a demographic that will only grow with more young, tech-literate customers over the next several years.\n\nDo you legitimately think they took on the FBI as a show of their commitment to their core corporate values only to undermine it to maybe grab a few billion in revenue from the other advertising juggernauts?\n\nApple can increase revenue by over a billion by simply increasing the cost of an iPhone by $10.', 'As revenue per user is fractions of pennies. The markup on an iPhone is hundreds of dollars. There’s a reason why using an Apple device is so much nicer, you’re not bombarded all day long with pointless shit from third parties. Most of Apples sales are to professionals. I’m one and a $ 1000 extra to not have shit thrown at me 24/7 for my entire working life is absolutely worth it.', 'So you have no arguments to counter my points, got it.\n\nTried having a civilized discussion but you seem to prefer ad hominems.', '"Privacy is a fad"\n\nTo corporations, yes.', 'Privacy from everyone who wants to know what you want to buy is a fad to corporations who are trying to effectively advertise their products. It’s not exactly privacy in general, but the details that are a fad to corporations. Where on the internet you tend to spend most of your time, what you buy, what you Google, what you install on your computer or phone, locations you go to, people you see, things you do...\n\nBig data uses this for trend-prediction and company decisions. It is a theoretically safe way of learning what the real reason why people buy or would buy your products. It also makes adverts be less noticeable and more subliminal by making it something that you care about or want. Making sure that you think of it the next time you get a chance to buy it.\n\nHowever... it also is dangerous to collect for one simple reason: hackers. As soon as one gets access to processed “Big Data” they can infer a lot of things that could absolutely compromise your privacy and/or security. You have no idea how much is put in big data. Including bank transactions and purchases, and purchased goods, even delivery locations and purchase locations. This could be used to: get your bank account drained and overdrawn, find out where you live, what house you live in and what kind of security systems you might have, what in your home is worth stealing, and your personal schedule. This can devastate anyone’s life, permanently. And this would all be available for a corporation to idly compose surveys on for advert purposes? What if it went further? What if corporations could access the products that you bought from them and make them useless, just so you buy a new one and give them more money, when they know you really need that product too much to go without it? Or decide to make money off of selling the data they collect from you and sell it to someone who is trying to disenfranchise or destroy you and/or your family and friends? Your small business? Destroyed because WalMart had enough dosh to buy corporate secrets that you needed to be secret in order to compete with them, and now you see the problem. It’s the insecurity of these systems that revealed this kind of skullduggery and conning that corporations are already doing right now. Walmart used to be on par with Target. Now target is in the dust, and Walmart is the king of the supermarket hill. Apple is the biggest vendor of smartphones and phone apps. Google is number two, but just barely. Android is close, but still not at the top. Facebook... isn’t even on that hill. It’s making money through other companies’ products, and the companies in question are wising up to that fact. Apple just wants a pretty piece of the pie. Oddly enough, epic games sued for basically the same reason. They wanted to have their piece of the pie that Apple was taking as per the terms of service. They tried to circumvent the ToS, and fortnite was removed from both the Apple App Store, and Google’s App Store too. Thus, lawsuit. \n\nPrivacy is a selling feature, but not a maintaining one. If you are not selling a physical product or service, then privacy of customers can hurt you more than it helps you. And advertising is desperate to be heard. Maybe there’s a reason why we aren’t listening to the advertisements? Just positing...', "You know, I thought the stereotype of apple fans being simpleton was bullshit, but you've really helped change my mind", '>\tI don’t need support for an app costing a buck. Yet if you read reviews of any popular app you will see many reviews of people getting all antsy cos the $1 app doesnt work any more.\n\nYes, user reviews are toxic bullshit and best ignored. \n\n>\tCorrect. I dislike both. Gotcha. You think all apps should be state funded then?\n\nNo. I already told you what I think.', '🤣\n\nSurprised you were able to type all\nThat without crashing out.', 'I’ve repaired over 10,000 phones.\n\nI just worked on a note 10 that lagged / bugged on the access point select screen after a factory reset. This is not ok for a device over $1000. Android phones are literally designed with the main objective of heat dissipation. Android is objectively terrible compared to iOS, and the last gen hardware in current gen phones is pathetic. Not to mention the generic hardware can never compete with a tailored hardware / software environment that Apple offers. Android phone bench marks are laughable, they can’t even keep up with the iPhone despite having the same specs as most peoples home computers. 😂\n\nI literally have no idea why someone able to afford an iPhone is not using one. The pain that you people don’t even know you’re going through is hilarious to me. I’ve used and repaired every device on the market, dozens, sometimes hundreds of times. I will never - ever buy an android device for as long as I live. The build quality is embarsssing. You’re paying thousands of dollars for a screen, not for the hardware within.', "I agree completely with the sentiment of your point, though I don't think arguing semantics is going to be particularly effective in convincing anyone of anything in this case. The primary argument I have against targeted ads is that they've caused me to spend obscene amounts of money, lol.", '>\tI want my hairdresser, real estate agent, doctor, dentist, so on and so forth to know me was well, because that allows them to better serve me. Should I be ashamed of that as well?\n\nLet’s talk about what’s rational since you seem to think everything is a debate class. \n\nThere is a level of transparency and “up front-ness” when you actively engage with your hairdresser, real estate agent, or doctor. You specify what you want from them, and they use they info to get you what you need. Your doctor doesn’t sell your info to third party data aggregators, your hairdresser doesn’t dish about the conversation you had to third party marketing departments. Your dentist doesn’t follow you from your trip to the hairdresser, grocery store, and doctors appointment to get a better idea of how to clean your teeth or what toothpaste you prefer. That’s what is needed to allow for such personal advertisements. You are being tracked across a digital landscape by parties you are not directly interacting with, and shamefully this is something you feel fine with so that you can see ads for the stuff you want.', 'The Xs is a very good phone I still have mine from over two years ago or so. I don’t even feel the need to upgrade.', "Some people are just really clumsy with their phones or like having a new phone with the latest and greatest every year. Its the same for both apple and Android users. \n\nI've been rocking a galaxy s7 since 2017 and am still pretty happy with it.", 'Yesterday I realized my iPhone 6s+ is five years old.', 'I’m still rocking a 7. Apple is making it pretty enticing to get a 12 based on their privacy stance alone. I’m no fanboy, but the majority of my social circle uses Apple and it just works nicely.', 'No kidding. Samsung s1>s2>s3 > iPhone 4s > 6s > XR. Went from annual phones to 30ish months per phone. Going from s3 to the 4s felt like a downgrade for sure but I needed FaceTime compatibility for work reasons.', 'I’m still on my 6s. I just can’t part with a proper headphone jack', 'It’s because android only gives 2 years of software updates', 'I had a 4, and have a 7...and that’s it. I also have a macbook pro from 2012', 'Just moved from a 6 to an 11 Pro Max. Quite a change!', 'Same. People shit on Apple but I’ve still got my 4s from 2012, 6s from 2015, and am still currently using my 7 from 2017. All with _very heavy_ usage. They all work, the old ones are plugged in 24/7, as well as my iPads from 2016 and 2017. They have their moments but I’ve no desire to switch anytime soon, especially after scoring an unlimited data deal with my network provider.', 'Rocking a 7+ here lol', "I'm still using an iPhone 6, but I'll be upgrading when the 12 drops.  My battery is finally not keeping up so it's time to update.  Really only reason for me to update is the new iOS, my 6 is stuck in iOS 12.", 'Had a 3GS, then a 4S, and in 2016 I got a 6S, which I’m still on. The battery life could be better but it’s still fast and pretty reliable and I don’t see myself switching anytime soon.', 'I am still rocking my 6s. I want to change phone this year but I don’t want the hassle of updating so many apps and info like iTunes between phones. I may tough it out for few more years before I inevitably have to get a new phone.', 'Same w me. 4s, 6s and now 11. I don’t see the point of  switching phones that many times.', 'I’m still running a 6S+.  Works fine.', 'Hell I had my 4s until I got my XS', 'This me too. 4s, 6s, Xs. I’ll upgrade my gen2 watch this fall probably bc I’m pretty sure it goes obsolete but I’m good with the xs for another few years.', "I don't know if you targeted this at Android's longevity, but I have kept my phone's each at least 4 years (S3 Mini, OnePlus One, Xiaomi Mi 9). \n\nI personally couldn't imagine spending more than 500€ on a phone.", 'Maybe I have a problem I had the iphone4, galaxy s, s2, s3, note 2, s4, note 3, one plus, all the nexus phones, pixel 1, a couple of huawei phones, s6, s7, s8, and now s10.', 'Whenever an iPhone that’s actually new comes out. They’ve released the same phone literally 4 or 5 times in a row', 'Yeah I think the real issue is, while this is a great stance *this time*, next week it could be something else that fucks over consumers and we do not have real, widespread alternatives.', 'Is google not monopolistic?', 'One big weak spot for Apple is they store encryption keys for iCloud so if law enforcement asks for your data, they give it to them. Google does not store the keys and cannot hand over your data.\n\nhttps://www.androidcentral.com/apple-may-have-ditched-encrypted-backups-google-hasnt', "Small sidenote, but if you're interested in alternative apps you should check out F-droid.\n\nApps there are typically low-footprint with few permissions, unglamorous, and usually ad-free.", 'Wait what monopolistic stuff is Apple doing currently? I’m out of the loop.', "Hol up. Are you telling me spotify and Netflix don't work on iPhones?\n\nBecause that's a real deal breaker for me. I'm all for better privacy but I also do a lot things to protect myself online in that regard already. I'm tempted to make the switch back to apple if they keep up this pro-privacy kick but not at the expensive of giving up utilities I use on a daily basis.", 'It’s not a monopoly though, you have other options.  iPhone isn’t the only phone on the market.  Hell they don’t even hold a majority of the market share.\n\nDon’t listen to it when people tell you they are acting like a monopoly.  They are just controlling the quality of the product they choose to release.  \n\nIf you don’t like it, you have a lot of other options to choose from that all have the same basic functionality.', "> I really like apples privacy stance \n\nIf only the iCloud had encryption, then I'd be pretty solidly sold on a 12 promax", 'What monopoly? You can always buy an android phone if you don’t like what they are doing with the app store. Apple has gain its userbase purely on merit and they can do whatever they want with their store (unfortunately for some devs).', "You just called Microsoft a victim? \n\n^(actually that wasn't enough question marks)\n\n????????????????????????????", 'Cloud streaming of games to your apple device has been banned by Apple.  Real kick in the pants for some of us.', 'Lol every corp "victim" you just named is huge and not a good actor either.', 'Well they offer a service of an App Store. I guess the way I look at it is these terms were there prior to Epic making anything. It’s not like they didn’t know what they were getting into and apple bait and switched them.', 'You have full permission control in Android. You can even block ads and network connection to apps.', 'They\'re not swinging any "monopolistic dick around", we need start recognizing issues for what they are and stop falling for bad propaganda. \n\nThe App Store is not a monopoly, it\'s a shopping platform for Apple\'s specific product. They manufacture the hardware for their machines, develop the software, and curate the type of applications that can be installed. This is not a monopoly, it\'s called moderating and maintaining a high end product. Apple has every right to restrict their products as they have, especially because these restrictions DO protect the end user at the end of the day. Your average person CANNOT leverage the type of features that Apple restricts, they are more likely to ruin those devices if the restrictions did not exist. If these companies actually succeed against Apple, it will negatively impact every thing from App stores to Steam itself. \n\nThey key issue with your statement is your use of the word "victim". Every company you listed is a multimillion dollar mega company. Not a single one can be called a "victim", especially because the only thing they are claiming to be a "victim" of is paying Apple a few more millions than they want to. They are not doing this for the good of independent developers around the world, they are doing this to squeeze out a comma or two on their shareholder reports. To add, indie developers had no issues paying the same dues to Apple. This was literally never an issue until the software companies realized that covid is probably going to eat into their bottom lines. \n\nLet\'s not forget that trading in user metadata is not just a Facebook game. Every company does if they\'re servicing millions of users around the world.  Epic, Netflix, and Microsoft have all sold our data like this in the past. We need to realize that regardless of whatever immature "phone war" stereotypes used to exist, Apple is legitimately protecting their userbase as a business model. It isn\'t necessarily for altruism, but Apple will likely began advertising how much they are fighting against Big Data. Ultimately, that helps everyone not just the few who know how to sideload Apps into their phone.', 'A paranoid android hmmm.', 'Epic is the bad actor in that relationship.\n\nAnd every other App Store owner is doing exactly the same thing.', 'I wouldn’t be calling epic a “victim” when they intentionally broke contract in order to sue apple.', "Using Epic as an example undermines your other examples. If they didn't want to pay Apple they simply need to sell their games elsewhere.", 'Not to disagree with your main point, but Epic is NOT a victim in any sense of the word.', 'Personally I wouldn’t ever recommend a surface. Used a bunch for work and they’re... just not good. Tried all sorts and never liked a single one.\n\nApple is kinda iffy with a lot of things, but so is Epic, so I don’t consider that them being monopolistic- that’s just a billion dollar company wanting even more money. Most of the other things you though up though? Yeah.\n\nThe privacy and the fact that phones are supported for 5+ years for updates is big for me. iPhones aren’t perfect, but both those reasons are worthwhile.', 'That’s is my biggest problem they are acting like Microsoft did back in the day', "Apple's stance on privacy is about the only stance of theirs that I can get on board with. I really can't name anything else about Apple (marketing, hardware, software, they're all interconnected) that suggests that they see their customers as much more than idiots with cash. *Soooo* many of their decisions come from a place of unapologetic condescension.\n\nGoogle is far from perfect, but the basic MO for both companies would need to change for me to switch to Apple.", "Epic really wasn't a victim tho, they are looking for a fight in the courts.  I can't speak to the other companies.", "Apple's privacy stance tends to be good recently but they're fucking awful, anti-consumer shitbags when it comes to hardware and right-to-repair. There aren't any good guys in this race.", "And all those companies engage in unethical, manipulative, forceful tactics too. Welcome to this wonderful setup we've made for ourselves.", 'iPhones last 4 years easy. It saves money.', 'I wouldn\'t call it garbage. It has always been comparatively overpriced to PC/Android stuff for sure, but they have always had good hardware in their stuff. What used to differentiate them (and thus what you used to pay for) basically was the "user experience" but now that Windows and Android have made up a lot of ground, Apple has realized they have to do something else to entice buyers. \n\nI have been really surprised with some of the stuff built into iOS as far as privacy goes. For example last night I downloaded the mobile version of Photoshop on my iPhone, and it asked me to create an account with Adobe (of course). It let me use my Apple ID/iCloud email to sign up, but them it gave me a prompt to hide my actual e-mail from Adobe, and instead is a randomly generated e-mail by Apple that they then forward to my e-mail address. So I guess theoretically if I ever want to "decouple" from Adobe, they won\'t have my actual e-mail to spam me with stuff I don\'t want anymore.\n\nAs far as the iCloud hacks, if I remember correctly it wasn\'t so much of a "hack" as those people used really shitty and guessable passwords. You can have all the security and privacy you want but if your password is \'password\' someone is going to get into your accounts.', 'haha yeah, the only device out of those I ever really liked was the Gen 1 Pixel, which unsurprisingly was the closest to an iPhone in both feel and functionality', "Smart watch, I can't answer because I've never owned one so I've never looked into it.\n\nAs far as headphones, I've got a pair of Anker Soundcore bluetooth headphones that I use with my iPhone 11 and it paired and works absolutely flawlessly. There's even an app for EQing and stuff if you want, so I can say that at least some bluetooth headphones that aren't Apple work, but I would assume it's most/all.\n\nI've never even taken the headphones they gave with the phone out of the box", "Worst/hardest part for me was getting used to there not being a consistent 'Back' button to press, and all the functionality that brings.\n\nAnd pressing the Home 'button' (even when it's not actually a button and on the screen itself) on an Android is a bit faster to get back to the Home screen than having to swipe up from the bottom on an iPhone.\n\nIt's all minor, but when you've been using your phone basically the same way for like 6 years, it's an adjustment", "Apples suck don't do it. It's so much more locked down to have to do certain things and always pay", "Just wondering, what'd they do? I just bought an LG", "Coming from a gen 1 Pixel, I actually didn't like the G7 at all at first (except for the bigger screen) but it eventually grew on me. When I bought it, it was one of the few phones that still had a headphone jack which is why I chose it.\n\nUnfortunately moving over to Apple meant having to get into bluetooth earbuds (which I still don't love) but I'll get over it", "Looked at it last night, was blown away at how cheap it was vs. the specs. Probably gonna upgrade in a few months, I've been getting sick of my Android potato.", 'Wow I had no idea how cheap it was. Im kinda impressed with them actually. Timmy and his crew seem to be throwing some pinches lately.', 'u can buy a cheap android for like $40', 'Sorry I didn\'t  explain correctly, i understan they will always use the the same IOS but make a "budget" line phone. And advertise it as super secure and super durable kinda idea.', 'I think you\'re misunderstanding/i\'m explaining poorly.\n\nI\'ve had a lot of problems with this phone.  Dropped calls and duplicate texts being the most annoying (any text i send to a group chat or with an image, it sends back to me from my number).  This didn\'t happen until the carrier switch.\n\nBefore the switch i did have some consistency issues, and the phone has degraded performance wise pretty fast from light use (just attempting to get to my texts can take 10 seconds sometimes).\n\nOverall, i\'m not thrilled, but I don\'t blame most of that on the phone so much as outside factors, but even ignoring those I\'m still not happy enough to just say "never again apple".\n\nI left because they decided $700 was acceptable lowend for a phone.  They\'ve lowered that and are slightly better on privacy (not that anyone is good), so that\'s enough for me to consider an iphone again.', "That's one thing, whatsapp is a Facebook product. I'd expect to be served ads based on what I type into it.  Same with gmail.  It's a free service, and I'm the product.  We have an arrangement.\n\nWhat I'm talking about is they actively listen to you even when your phone screen is locked and it's in your pocket.\n\nThat shit's going way too far for my taste. Creeps me the hell out.", 'at least apple is trying to help protect the user privacy', 'If you want the best marketing "anomaly" research. My favorite hockey team "toronto maple leafs" people have litteraly used them as the subject for their doctorate. (I dont know what the correct terms would be) seriously though, they are an anomaly in professional sports marketing. A front row Middle ice toronto maple leaf SEAT is the most expensive ticket in "traditional" sports. They haven\'t won a championship in 50 years. But even in their extremely bad times, they "sold out" the areana every home game. It would be cheaper for me to get a front row seat in Detroit, drive there get a hotel for a couple nights. To see "my" team play in my hometown.\n\nEDIT: I just want to point out why I put the word traditional in, obviously front row tickets to the super bowl or Courtside seats to the basketball championship are going tobe significantly more. But watching the toronto Maple leafs play is one of our biggest attractions for people from hockey towns. Many NHL fans plan trips around when their favorite team will be in toronto, and have no problem paying 500 a piece for "nosebleeds"', "Have they fixed the problem where IPv6 traffic is blocked yet? I've used it for awhile but eventually ditched it because of that, and been using a paid DNS provider with blocking features instead (which as a bonus doesn't require an app install).", "Do you know of anything like Blokada that works with an already running VPN on the phone (because if I understand it right you can't run a VPN with Blokada?)", 'Yeah they collect a lot of data but at least you can opt out of most of it.', 'She doesn\'t buy and sell constantly, Apple is the only one she "plays" with. She has some bluechip stocks, but most her money is in mutual funds. Funny thiugh when I was chatting with her this morning, she said a similar thing to you, she\'s retired and her pension and my lassed away fathers pension are more than enough. But every penny counts of she ever has to go to a nursing home.', 'Except for all those times when FB had personal information of users accessed by third parties.', 'Eh. That is the end point anyway. Just because Google does for the company better than what the company wants to do for itself doesn’t make it any different. Google would sell that data but it generate greater revenue by analysing and using that data the way the company wants it anyway.\n\nThat may generally be the case because it’s an easier revenue stream but the user agreements certainly state Google and Facebook may use that data how they see fit. Like how gmail keeps a copy of every email sent through it’s servers to utilise in a yet to be identified manner in the future.', "It's [a bit more complicated](https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2020/03/google-says-it-doesnt-sell-your-data-heres-how-company-shares-monetizes-and) than that.\n\n> In many different ways, Google sends data to advertisers, and advertisers send it money.\n> \n> Yet Google claims that it’s not “selling” anything.\n> \n> It does acknowledge that somewhere in this process, a “sale” is occurring. It just insists that Google itself isn’t the one selling data. Instead, although Google facilitates the whole process, it places the responsibility of CCPA compliance on website and app publishers.", '>Google doesn’t sell your data and neither does Facebook\n\nYes they do', 'Aight, I can live with that, fuck it.', 'Facebook sells user data. They just got exposed for it a couple of months ago. Literally selling your data to companies.\n\nGoogle it.', "Sure but it's at no expense to me, I'm not doing anything with that data, it costs me nothing to provide it. If I had real concerns about my privacy I wouldnt use Google for it, but generally speaking I doubt anyone at Google would bat an eye at even my most embarrassing searches", "This is why Tim Cook is a lousy CEO. He doesn't have the balls to do anything. Apple is in limbo.", "Well yes, because they don't have the platform to make more on ads. They would if they could. They don't offer the same services. Google doesn't sell your data, that's proprietary and too valuable for them to sell off. They sell targeted ads.", 'Right, so that\'s the problem with non-personalized advertising. You\'re going to end up seeing the lowest common denominator of ads -- in my opinion, the worst of the worst. In my professional opinion, that is where the internet is trending with the removal of identity.\n\nPeople bemoan "tracking" for advertising, but would posit that it yields much better outcomes. I don\'t see ads for Trump PACs, I don\'t see belly fat or hot singles ads, I see ads for watches I like, home improvement, cars relevant to my earning, school stuff for my kids, etc.\n\nIf I don\'t have personalization, I get much worse ads: HEAD ON APPLY DIRECTLY TO THE FOREHEAD, etc. I believe people have a right to privacy, but I think that their understanding of what ads systems "know" about them is ridiculously skewed.\n\nSource: I worked on ads systems.', "Yeah, don't use the **free products** that Google puts out.  Jesus Christ, reddit. 🤦\u200d♂️", "That's exactly what the opt-out does. If you opt out, Google will never remember things that you do -- that is, you will not receive audience targeted advertisements of any kind.\n\nFundamentally, if you turn off personalized advertising, Google will not store information about your browsing/activity to your user profile. Not sure if that'll make sense to you; happy to explain.", 'Free: users don\'t have to pay for information. Open: anyone can contribute.\n\nI agree that it isn\'t the same as FOSS definitions =). Information on the web isn\'t "free" at all in that definition, unless it\'s set to an open copyright form. To me, the above elements are the most critical toward making sure that everyone can have a voice and that voices of non-commercial types can be compensated for their contributions.', 'In my understanding, 3p cookie deprecation in chrome will apply to both Desktop and Mobile.', 'I would have recommended it to ppl by 5, 6 is pretty dang solid.', 'Isn’t that just Reddit with extra steps?', 'Im not disagreeing at all.  I have friends from Alberta and they are stunningly exactly like conservatives from the south.  Casual racism and all.', 'Not at all. What conservative Ideal in history has ever prospered?', 'Lol, would you suggest Kanye? Or is there another candidate you’d rather bring up in bad faith?', 'I need your credit card number, along with the exp. and security code as well and consider it done :) I love helping others', "Search terms: apple selling data to google\n\nProbably not the best search terms but my head isn't working right yet. First link that I got  [https://www.theatlantic.com/technology/archive/2019/01/apples-hypocritical-defense-data-privacy/581680/](https://www.theatlantic.com/technology/archive/2019/01/apples-hypocritical-defense-data-privacy/581680/)", "I've been calm dude? There's a link to Facebook's business page post in the article next to their first quote. You gotta do some digging, but they're there. Surely you can see how your first question is worded in such a way, and replying to such a comment, that no one will ever interpret it the way you want them to right?", 'Of course it’s a calculated move, you think businesses don’t calculate their moves?\n\nAt the end of the day Apple is a business and they’ve run the numbers and decided that going full steam ahead on privacy is what’s gonna put them ahead. And as a consumer I value privacy so I’m going to reward them with my money. \n\nIf it affects all businesses as you say, and those businesses have to change their practices to survive *without using my data to their advantage*, how is that not a good thing? Businesses that thrive off *my data* dying off? I’m confused at what your point is, unless you’re essentially advocating for shitty business practices that abuse user’s privacy to their financial advantage?', '/r/oopsdidntmeanto lol are you trying to get other people to think critically or do you think the original commenter should\'ve provided more context instead of "lol"? Those are two completely different things.\n\nYour question was not rhetorical, my first comment actually did what you\'re claiming to try to do now, your second comment just adds even more confusion for literally everyone. I\'m not ripping you apart, you got caught and you\'re scrambling.', 'You mean Herbalife and Young Living will pay less? I think that just means they will buy more. Gotta keep the FB mom groups in their MLMs...', 'They will not be able to charge more for same ads, but companies will still hit their target for mostly same price, thing is they would pay 0.1 cents for each targeted ads, and now they will pay 0.001 and order 100 times more ads, but there is a limit of ads, and Facebook will lose revenue, companies will still pay mostly the same for the revenue generated from online marketing.\n\nEdit: just read again your post, and you are correct, sorry if I sounded demeaning, I just didn’t get at first your phrase.', "Ya know, people are upset about that, but at least it makes it explicitly transparent that you're buying and using a Facebook product that tracks what content you watch and what specifically you're looking at with that content. Granted, the ethical thing to do would be to explain that in a splash screen for the product itself, for those who don't understand what the device is tracking.\n\nHowever, if you need a FB account to use newer Oculus software that support the pre-buyout Oculus model you purchased or crowdfunded, that would be different. I'm not sure how that works, but clearly people bought those devices expecting support for longer than the development cycle of the next Oculus. They deserve being able to get things off Steam and not have to think about an external account and launcher required.\n\nI don't care how much this thing costs to develop, if Facebook wants to keep stealing and selling data, they should do it like Moviepass did. Just give the thing away for free and let everyone know upfront that it's absurdly generous because they're going to learn everything there is to know about you and use that to make a play for world dominance.", "That's one layer down that most people don't check and maybe should, but I'm also talking about the additional layer of companies not owned by Facebook that use technology owned by Facebook.", 'Gotta tool for that one?', "Do you know how your favorite Apps on your phone display their ads? Do you know if they're using the Audience Network by Facebook?\n\nFacebook does a lot of stuff. They've build javascript frameworks that are important parts of modern web and mobile development. \n\nEven if you don't have a FB/Insta/Whatsapp account and you block all the facebook stuff in your browser (and even if you block through a pi-hole for mobile stuff), you almost certainly use products developed by Facebook every day.", "Yep exactly, but sadly a lot of people don't know that Facebook is more than just Facebook the website, let alone be expected to install specific add-ons and whatnot.", "Yeah I think it's really cool. If you need help figuring anything out you can shoot me a PM. Cheers.", 'I honestly prefer to keep it that way.\n\nAnything that was once cool gets ruined as soon as adults hop on it.', 'Nah tiktok is it. Instagram is not really so social. Tiktok is.', "That's not what the parent said.", "You can always pick up the phone and call them. Or spend some time and see them in real life. I mean, I know it's more trouble, but if they're important to you, maybe investing in making them human instead of just a webpage you look at trying to find the latest details is of value.\n\nMaybe it's not valuable and you just need the news ticker overlaying entertainment, like what happened to journalism.", 'I generally can\'t stand the "back in my day" mentality, but FB has changed. Maybe 10 years or so ago, FB *was* a chronological feed. There were no in-line ads disguised as posts, just banners off to the side. And certainly nowhere near as much political garbage; there was a bit right after Obama got elected, but it died off really quickly. \n\n\nI don\'t know this for sure, but I suspect smartphones (and computers/tech in general) becoming ubiquitous is a huge driver behind why it sucks now.', ">The default is a non-chronological feed of only what Facebook thinks will engage you, what the groups you've liked have paid to promote, or what advertising groups have paid to show you. If you change to a chronological feed of everyone you follow then it will change back to non-chronological next time you access Facebook\n\nThis.   This is the primary reason I left FB.    Why the fuck can't I keep it in chronological order?     Why is there a setting to change it, if you're just gonna change it right back?    Fuck FB", 'You can also (to an extent) prioritize certain friends by going to their profile, selecting the little person up top (second from the right) and selecting "see first."  I had to do this with several friends just to get to see *any* of their posts, but it works okay.', 'You DO have control.\n\nYou can just "unfollow" the people you don\'t want to see in your feed, but still remain "friends" with them (for whatever reasons).', 'What ads? I use Friendly on my mobile devices and have no ads. I use ad blockers and FB container extensions on desktop.\n\nI haven’t seen a Facebook ad in years. You’re poorly informed not realizing you can DEFINITELY block FB ads and content.', 'Shit. I share one on my Facebook wall once a month', "Well then I'm stumped. You must know better people or something because I've curated my feed as much as I can and it still sucks.", 'Eh, just mute those and use an ad blocker and what you said can be fixed in less than a single minute. \n\nNobody forces you to read the "toxic political bs", facebook allows each user to decide what they want to see and what not to see.', "You can UNFOLLOW them, while still keeping them as FRIENDS.\n\nI'm not sure how people are not aware of this.\n\nhttps://i.imgur.com/UUrTtrm.png", 'Just checked. Mine has a kid cooking. A .... sassy grandma??(I think cuz she’s wearing make up and rocking it), another kid doing a science experiment, and some basic celebrity gossip', 'Righto. I try my hardest to vote with my dollars. I just kinda assumed most folks were mostly decent and FB was just showing me extreme opposites of my leanings to get me to engage but I started seeing some friends and family backing the 3%ers etc and would argue with them all day. \n\nfeellikeimtakingcrazypills.gif every single night. Left me gutted.', "Yeah yeah, I saw the /s but reading comprehension isn't my strongest skill.", 'You are correct on all fronts. Like I said, I don’t like Facebook. Just had an issue with dismissing Oculus like that.', 'Sure. And a lot of younger folks are being radicalized watching videos of unarmed black men being murdered by police. That sort of radicalization is good.\n\nRadicalization is as bad or good as a hammer. It depends on context.', "> It's foolish to trust Google, but Facebook gives no shits about your privacy.\n\nAt least with Google, you know that they sell your data, and you know that they use that revenue to provide you with free services. Some have advertising added, some don't.\n\nHowever, Google does not generally sell your data in a way that can be traced back to you, and further, they're not looking to use your data to manipulate you, like the Cambridge Analytica scandal from Facebook, for example.\n\nLastly, Google does give you the tools you need to [see what they collect about you](https://gizmodo.com/everything-google-knows-about-you-and-how-to-delete-it-1834633034), in addition to being able to keep a copy of it, and to close your account.", 'Do it.  It would be funny!  Of course all the “all large businesses are pure evil” people will disagree with it....', 'Oh cmon my dude', 'No one is saying that.  Don’t misconstrue the argument here.  Apple isn’t perfect but ffs it is making positive moves that influence the industry.  This is what people ask for.  Facebook just laughs off the demand for privacy while Apple takes steps to improve shit.  And then all the false equivalence actors come out saying “all corporations are evil and this is a cynical ploy to fool us”.  So there is just no winning with this crap.  \n\nWhy wouldn’t we applaud, loudly, when a company makes a customer-centric decision like Apple has?  Isn’t that the goal here?  To improve things and make a positive change?  For me, watching Apple grow from it’s early 80s beginnings, I’m pleased they are taking a stand that goes against corporate interests for capital and instead foments trust in it’s users.  This is exactly the right step and more companies, I hope, will follow their example.  \n\nAnd the haters can shut up.  Nothing is ever good enough for those people.  Keep shooting themselves in the foot!', 'You and I have very different definitions of “a ton”. They store basic logging and diagnostic data and that’s [about it](https://www.zdnet.com/article/apple-data-collection-stored-request/). The vast majority of the data that Apple collects for things like your phone tracking recent locations etc. is encrypted and stored in a way that it’s only accessible by you, Apple themselves never has access to it and isn’t sharing it with anyone. Anything they do collect to improve their services is anonymized and can’t be attributed back to you.', 'They actually make a huge effort to keep data on device. For this reason Siri was initially lagging to cloud based assistants that spy on you', 'Because I doubt Apple is targeting people that want to open up their own laptops.  Why the fuck would I want to open my MBP?!  Computers are ubiquitous and not everyone has the skill or desire to customize or repair their own.  \n\nIf you do, use other computers.  I’m sure Apple won’t mind.', 'Not all companies are public ones.  Which was my point too.  I even caveated what you said in my comment.', 'Thanks for the encouraging words!', '“People sadly see things from one angle too often”\n“Being a fan of a company is a stupid idea...”\n“Do not forget that. They’re not your friends.”\n\nFrom where I’m sitting it all comes off as mansplaining, but thanks for the unsolicited advice on what to do about it. Have a nice day', 'Same! It’s bizarre! People have the right to spend money as they see fit but I couldn’t imagine dropping a grand on a phone every year.', "You can have your privacy elsewhere. You can lock down your devices as little or as much as you want on other platforms. This change is also not that major a move for actual user privacy. The information is still collected. It's a huge disruption for some companies that profit from it. \n\nbetter for less is not relative. Hardware has specifications.", 'Again, you really think that a court will entertain such a nonsense lawsuit?\n\nYou really want to heaps at straws just to blindly defend apple.', "Oh my God I'm so scared.....", 'Just when I think you couldn\'t get any dumber - you post something like this.  You should probably get someone to check you post before you actually post them.  Hint:  You are the only one posting about anything "gay".', "I am sure the Apple guys are the exception to every other large company in the history of capitalism.\n\nI am sure they will choose the high ground. \n\nI mean, is not like they manufacture in shady places, have slower their hardware, tried to pass bent units or... Well, none of that shit.\n\nApple will surely champion the privacy cause as long as that's profitable, once it shifts and they are in control of your data well... We will see.\n\nOh.and the FBI showdown? Still a ver profitable gamble, wouldn't you say? \n\nBackdoor access to.governments is still on the table and catering to China is just as shitty as it is profitable.\n\nThank God Apple took the high road there too and refused to remove apps on command.\n\nGod bless the Apple", 'You think apps should be free for you? Who pays the devs?', "I've worked on broken iphones as well. You are right. defective hardware sucks, especially on expensive products. Android phones are literally designed with many objectives. Yes there are teams that work only on heat dissipation. Those engineers can be found at all hardware designers. \n\nLast gen current phones is a strawman of yours you've repeated twice that I don't really understand. Apple sells brand new old hardware too. People want that lower price point. Cheaper phones are going to have cheaper components. The S20 has a snapdragon 865 and 5G, those are both 2020 tech. \n\nI did mention that the closed environment Apple runs gives them better compatibility. So I agree with you here. Macs and game consoles have had closed systems for years and it is a model that works well.  Android's more open system has been highlighted recently with Fortnite; the game came to Android mobile first due to Apple restrictions, and now has been pulled altogether.\n\nI have both iOS and Android. I chose my android as the daily driver. I like the features more than iphone. Just being able to use more than one store is awesome. There is a 20% deal in the samsung store this week on in game currency for some games. Amazon app store has deals all the time, and I can buy Kindle books directly inside the app. I got Minecraft for free on Amazon. I did use an iphone as the daily for years, but always had to jailbreak it to turn on the features I wanted.", '> I don\'t think arguing semantics is going to be particularly effective in convincing anyone of anything in this case\n\nI\'m not nitpicking semantics, I\'m being deliberately specific to try to coax a similarly specific argument from the people give me shit, because they\'re really giving me nothing. "Targeted ads are bad, m\'kay?"\n\nWe\'ve had targeted ads since the 30s. That\'s what Nielson ratings were for. They used to have to install devices in your home, or have people wear "portable people meters" (that\'s a real thing) that detected tones hidden inside radio and TV broadcasts (also a real thing).\n\nThe only things that\'s changed is how much easier and transparent gathering the data is, and how much more useful the results are.', '> you seem to think everything is a debate class\n\nSo the fact that you\'re trying to defend your position means that *you* think this is a debate class, right? Or does your own shit-for-brains reasoning not apply to you?\n\n>  shamefully this is something you feel fine with\n\nYou keep repeating this, but you\'ve yet to make an argument for why I should feel ashamed.\n\nShame is something people feel when they\'ve done something morally wrong. The most fundamental, universal basis for a definition of "morally wrong" is "hurts someone, unnecessarily".  Letting advertisers know what I like so they can give me better ads doesn\'t hurt them, it doesn\'t hurt me, so the idea that I should feel *shame* over it is completely fucking nonsensical. \n\nMostly, you want to shame me for having thoughts that aren\'t generated for me by the memosphere.', 'Same. I’ve noticed the battery life isn’t as great, but it’s still just as fast as when I got it.', "Sitting here on my X. Phone's as good as new, beautiful and runs fast. Takes great pictures. Is updated regularly by Apple. And Apple's big on security.\n\nCouldn't be happier. Not trading in for a long time.", 'Same...Unless they put equally good cameras into a smaller, lighter iphone. This thing is still too big and too heavy for me, even after nearly 2 years.', 'I’ve just got the XR and I couldn’t be happier, it runs everything, not slow, not bulky, safe, and it’s not overwhelmingly expensive', "Wow the Xs came out almost two years ago. That's crazy to think about. Wow", 'I feel that way about my 6s+.', "i can't say I've ever felt the need to upgrade a phone... I've felt the need to buy a phone but never upgrade one... \n\nit either works or it doesn't... if it doesn't you need a new phone... if it does... why would you get a new phone?", "My Xr is great, but I can only wireless charge because I busted the lightning port trying to clean it out. And because I don't wanna pay 100$ to use my insurance I'll likely be getting a 12. Otherwise wouldn't have a need.", 'same here, i won’t upgrade until 5g is available  for both phone and network coverage. i can wait.', 'There’s not really ever much of a legitimate reason to upgrade if your phones hardware is holding up. I can’t think of much I can do with the newest iPhone that I couldn’t do almost a decade ago.', 'Still using my 8plus. Haven’t decided yet if I want to upgrade to 12 when it’s released. Might just wait for 13.', 'This has been my experience as well, roughly. As much as it feels possible to upgrade all the time and they did some fucky software stuff a while back to slog older phones, but all things considered. I only had a 5 for like three years, a 7 that I still have and now I’ve an 11pro and since my old 7 is still in terrific condition, I’m confident I’ll have this phone til the 15 or so... barring life changing 5G (I have no hopes for this, but I’ll leave the option open), I see no reason.', "I've gone from a 4 to 6s, and now an 11, personal phone. My business phones are cheap android phones because my employees can't take care of the phones.", "I'm thinking about upgrading to a refurb Xs max right now, it's great value compared to everything else out there.", 'Its actually sick that you think it should be normal to have to update after 2years.\n\nI have my iphone from 2016 and am only thinking of upgrading because the front fell off... otherwise im happy.. even the bat is holding up', 'I would still have my X if a shattered screen had not proven almost as expensive as a new 11 pro.', "Damn I am very jealous. I was a longtime apple user and the X was the second phone in a row that I had such a bad experience with i switched to Android. I wish android had the privacy options apple does because I've had numerous less than okay experiences with apple over the last 5 years but the OnePlus 7 pro has been literally the best phone I've ever used.", "Honestly, I think it's a little bit ridiculous that people buy phones so often. I can understand if it breaks or if there is some feature that you really need, but a 5 or 10% speed increase is really not worth $500 or more. And let's not even get started on the unsustainability of our obsession with consumption. This decadence cannot be sustained by the resources on our planet.", "Some people (me) are just clumsy. It's not a phone specific thing, we drop everything. We just happen to have phones in our hands more often than just about anything else", "Yeah my S8 is pretty great to be honest, can't see me changing until it dies on me", "I'm the clumsy type. Sometimes I drop my phone and go to catch it and end up spiking it into the sidewalk at mach 3.", 'Note 4 checking in', "Eyyyy s7 squad. I have an s 7 edge since April 2016 and haven't looked back.", "I am Still rocking and S7 and I am happy with it, the only reason I am going to upgrade it is because the battery doesn't last long nowadays and it's a bitch when I am out and about but other than that it works just fine.", 'I have an LG V20 that I love, but everyone seems to be focused on continuing to remove good things like removable batteries, sd cards, and headphone jacks. \n\nI hope I can get at least a couple more years out of my V20.', "I was running a Galaxy S6 until I got an iPhone 11 last October. I gotta be honest the last year and a half to two years of having that Galaxy were terrible. The phone ran horrendously, while the SO's old iPhone SE ran flawlessly. I've been running the iOS 14 beta the past month or so and have to say I'm very pleased.", '> or like having a new phone with the latest and greatest every year.\n\nLuckily there hasn\'t been a new "Wow! I absolutely need that!" feature for phones in years, so this really shouldn\'t be a factor.', 'I just upgraded from a 2014 galaxy S5, but It still works so I still use it as a remote and to play music in the shower.', "I'm still rocking my 4s. It's almost 9 years old. Tried to get an 11 last week on contract but apparently my credit score will only allow me to be offered a low end Huawei. Being poor sucks.", 'Yeah, I ended up biting the bullet and just buying AirPods after about a year. I don’t really care *that* much about overall audio quality on my phone when I’ve got a substantial music-listening setup at home. I listen to mostly podcasts at this point and they all kind of sound like ass anyway. If I want to listen to music, I’m cranking the volume at home on the hi-fi setup or listening on my good headphones.\n\n\nAnd I really only went with AirPods because I can also quick connect them to my AppleTV, and the cord on the stock headphones were constantly getting caught on things and being pulled out of my ears at work.', 'Same, even with heavy use. I was about to do a second battery replacement (I work from my phone and it gets drained and recharged twice a day, so the battery doesn’t last long, understandably) on my 6s and then wait until the replacement for the 11 but I dropped it in the parking lot on the way to the Apple store. Screen and battery wasn’t *that much* less than just grabbing a new phone.', 'No, this was specifically about someone having changed phones more than once a year.', 'You absolutely *do* have a problem. That level of wasteful consumption and consumerism is something you should definitely work on reigning in.', 'Same can be said about Samsung my dude.', 'Apple have consistently chosen the side of privacy. There are many valid criticisms towards Apple, but they have maintained their stance on this matter for quite some time. There’s plenty of stuff I don’t like about apple, but I have a ton of respect for that', 'Tomorrow it will be another video of Tim Cook with "The Governance of China" conspicuously in the background.  \n\n\nIf ever you start to convince yourself that a business has morals or principles outside of making money off you, stop yourself from humanizing them and start thinking about how you guarantee your interests remain permanently their interests as well.  \n\n\nBecause nearly every one of these companies has at some point tried to cash in their banked "values" for Yuan.  "Of COURSE we need to help China locate and sterilize muslims.  I mean, if \\*we\'re\\* not the onese doing it, it will be an immoral company that doesn\'t share your values doing it!"', 'If locking in users into an ecosystem was harder you could punish these companies with your wallet easily.', "If only Microsoft didn't fuck up with Windows Phone...", 'Yeah, the consumers need to be wary about buying into and allowing a monopoly in the market. Because once they have enough control of the market, and decide, "hey, we don\'t need to be good samaritans anymore because there\'s no competitors!", we now have no options other than to disconnect.', "Imagine if some supplier to wal-mart was complaining that Wal-mart is selling their product for $100 and not giving them all $100 from the sale. I think it's kind of ridiculous for Epic to expect to use Apple's infrastructure, platform, software, hardware etc. for free. I know it's a bit more nuanced but still it seems like an obvious thing.", '> Apple are doing exactly the same thing as Google on Play Store, Microsoft on Xbox Store and Sony on the PS Store. All of those force you to use the payment of the platform (and take a 30% cut).\n\nInstalling software from **outside** the store is much easier on Android through. AFAIK Apple takes *blocking users from using their device however they want* much more seriously than at least *some Android phones*.\n\nAs a side note, it\'s ridiculous people praise Apple for their "privacy stance", given utter unverifiability of their properiary locked down stuff. Android is at least somewhat/partially open.\n\n> have the worst PR\n\nApple certainly don\'t have worse PR than other tech giants. I mean, PR/branding is most of what they have / their value.', '\\>  Google, Microsoft and Sony are the **real** targets of Epic’s lawsuit \n\nIf that is true why did Microsoft side with Epic in that lawsuit?', "No it's not the same. Android supports alternatives to native apps, I can make a website with similar functionality to a native app, no purchases, less security problems and I can employ the one team to build it for all platforms.\n\nInstead we have to spend hundreds of thousands of dollars a year on a mobile team developing a separate app because we absolutely need push notifications. There is no technical reason to not support it, they just want to force everyone through their app store. Android started supporting it around 5 years ago. Steve Jobs was a massive fan of web apps and didn't like the app store until he saw the mad bank it made", "Try to develop a game and sell inside of the app in Epic's ecosystem.  That tells you all you need to know about Epic.", 'Apple has bad PR? I have no idea why you would think that.', "It's not the initial purchase, but the fact they force them to make all future in game purchases through Apple and take a 30% cut, while Apple does not provide to install apps on their phones without using the app store. At that point nothing  beyond the initial purchase has gone through the app store.  Everything is between you and the Epic.   There's no Apple servers hosting Fortnight.  By that reasoning Walmart should be able to tell Apple you sold your phone through us so we take 30% of all your sales.   Or if Microsoft said youre using our OS to make your sale through Amazon we should be taking 30% of your sales. \n\nEpic has their own store and a licensing fee for using the UE4, and they do it in a sliding scale based in revenue, but they also let you use it for free till you make money.  But even then if you buy a game from them and then buy add ins from a 3rd party directly they don't get a cut of the separate transaction.", "The play store is not the only way to put software on your android; an apk can be directly installed from any source. The app store is the only way to get software on an iphone. The only similarity between android and those other platforms is the fee structure if you choose to use their store. The key difference is that android is the only one that doesn't force you into its store.", "They are very much not the same, in most areas. For example, Google allows you to use a different payment processor and will then take no cut at all AFAIK. (unless it's a game, there they behave like Apple does - but Apple does it for everything)\nApple also does not allow to even tell people to go sign up elsewhere, or tell them that there is content that can be unlocked through other means. You MUST use their payment professing and cannot lead people anywhere else. You can also not charge ios users more. It's madness.", "Apple doesn't allow any other apps not from its store on its devices. In terms of monopolistic behaviour that makes it a much easier case to win than the one against Google where the Play Store is just one option, but the most convenient one and that convience is a bonus you pay extra for. The lawsuit against Google is much (and if you take a look at the Spotify case Apple looks even more disproportionately evil...) more based of tenuous links and the idea that Google systemically disadvantage those not selling on the Play Store. The Google case is basically based upon Epic winning the Apple case and then the judge to decide that the links are valid enough for the ruling to be able to be applied to Google to.\n\nAll those companies have monopolistic aspects, that doesn't make them all as bad as Apple on that front. The other companies dont have cases as extended and brutal as Apples attempts to kill the use of Spotify on its platform to push Apple music or the other Apple sagas here.", 'Honestly i see no way Apple wins this.\n\nIt is the very definition of a vertical monopoly.\n\nYou use a successful product to force the customer to use other products with no way out.\n\nImagine if microsoft did the same.', "No because you are allowed to direct download any app ypu want or install competitor stores.  They don't force you to use playstore.", 'Google is but not in the phone market. They compete with Samsung, LG etc', 'Monopolistic for what service? Google offers a ton of internet services. The only service in which they may have semi monopolistic control is internet searches, but even then it’s fairly unique in that it’s a free service with a number of other competitors.', 'Let so than Apple since Android is open source', "Android is & remains an Open Source Operating System. Yes, it is mainly led, funded & otherwise managed by Google, but it does remain open sourced. The Android OS that came loaded on your Android phone may be loaded with BS Spyware, Bloatware & unremovable junk (unless you root the phone), but that is not on Android, that's on the phone's manufacturer. Just as it is on the manufacturer (& partially on us & our government) that rooting a phone or replacing the factory OS voids a phone's hardware warranty in many/most cases.\n\nHate on Google all you want (& I encourage you to do so, as a matter of fact, you should probably hate on them a bit harder than you currently are), but this is one of the few things they are not guilty of.\nDo they build & release Google optimized Android Distros? Fuck Yeah...\nDo they focus a lot of their Open Sourced work efforts towards optimizing Android for the Google Environment? Fuck Yeah...\nDo they spend a lot of time, money & effort to coax & cajole Android phone manufacturers to preload their phones with unremovable Google trash Applications? Fuck Yeah...\nShould they be punished for their regular uncompetitive behavior? Fuck Yeah...\n\nYou could say the same of Microsoft & most laptop manufacturers.\nAt the end of the day, Android Source remains a valid & relatively safe OS. Just like Windows 10 (which is definitely not Open Source) remains a valid & relatively safe(ish) OS. \n\nAt the end of the day, I believe that the Apple IOS is currently more secure than the Android OS, but I absolutely trust the Android OS over the Apple IOS because Android shows what it does & what it is.\nThat's what being open sourced is all about. It doesn't mean that you are not being spied upon, but it does mean that you can more easily find out how you are being spied upon & more easily deal with it.\n\nApple is 100% spying on you. They just are more stealthy about it& hide it more. The problem is that they obfuscate it so much that you actually have no idea just how much of your data or information they actually reveal to 3rd parties. That is much more worrying than what Google does. Google lets you know that you have absolutely no privacy. It sucks but at least you know where you stand. Apple IOS tricks you into feeling safe when you very well may not be at all.", 'I agree. I just do local backups, and keep one week of encrypted backup in iCloud as a just in case (manual encrypted zip upload).', 'They work on iPhones but you can’t subscribe for them in app.\n\nSo either Spotify and Netflix fork over 30% of their subscription revenue, while competing directly with Apple TV+ and Apple Music, or they gimp their apps to remove subscription feature.\n\nAnyone that has worked on any technology related product knows that has a huge impact on conversions, even if both are established brands.\n\nMeanwhile Apple signs a deal with Amazon to reduce their fees for Prime Music and Prime Video. Seriously, that shit needs to be regulated so the rules are at least consistent and fair to developers and consumers.', 'They work fine, you just can’t set up payments, have to use another device for that', 'If I’m a dev and I get locked out of iOS my app instantly loses 50% of potential users and likely 75% of its potential mobile app revenue.\n\nPeople get hung up on the word monopoly because they don’t understand industrial organization. You could very well have a market with only one firm (a try monopoly), am that operates efficiently because the sole threat of entry is enough to keep its behavior in check.\n\nOn the other side of coin, you could have multiple players in a market that either through collusion or because of low elasticity.\n\nMonopoly power and market power are synonymous.', ">It’s not a monopoly though, you have other options.  iPhone isn’t the only phone on the market. \n\nThat's not how it works. They have a monopoly *within* the iPhone atmosphere.", 'It does. Apple just has the keys to it. Like every other cloud service.', "https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT202303\n\nThey do use encryption in iCloud, and even end to end encryption in many cases. For what it's worth, I had a technical interview with an Apple security team and the exact topic of e2e encrypted backups and data de-duplication came up. Doesn't really prove anything, but I thought it was a relevant anecdote. I don't care if you buy an iPhone or not though - my unsolicited take is use what you like, and keep advocating for privacy like you are.", 'Depends on your market definition, and there are various degrees of monopolistic power.\n\nFor example Apple forced Wordpress to monetize a free app, and only backed down because of public pressure.\n\nThey threatened to ban epics developer account and thus impact thousands of 3rd party developers that relied on unreal engine.\n\nThey don’t allow for cloud gaming services because they can’t monetize things like xCloud or nVidia now.\n\nThe list goes on and on. They hold 50% of the mobile market, and as part of the de facto app distribution duopoly they do have a fuck ton of market power.', "wow, a shitty duopoly where the other competitor exists solely to sell your data and serve you ads, so much better! I want to know what it's like to think and see the world like you do, what a fucking trip that must be.", 'xCloud can’t launch on iOS.', "Please tell me why NetherRealm Studios, the developers of Mortal Kombat Mobile, should be punished because Apple and Epic got into a fight?\n\nBecause that's exactly what Apple tried to do.\n\nApple tried to revoke Epic's developer credentials which would cause the Unreal Engine to be desupported on mac and iOS. So any game that runs the Unreal Engine would also be impacted.\n\nCourt decision blocked that dick swing.", "Apps are not sandboxed like in iOS, its very much a trust game.\n\nI really don't like the idea of giving blanket permission to my file system if an app needs to save a file, especially considering how Android handles storage of deleted files. Sure 99.9% are legit, but paranoid me hates it. I get it, its the same thing on windows essentially.\n\nBeyond the paranoia, I hate having to baby every single app installation and permission management.\n\nAndroid is just now implementing more granular permissions. They still have a lot to catch up with iOS when comes to that. Apple showing users when apps access clipboard is already causing a massive change in how apps collect data.\n\nLastly, I'm not giving my company blanket access to my phone. Thats not even an option on iOS unless they are company issued and centrally managed. Android lets Active Directory permissions completely take over your phone. Fuck. That.\n\nSo there are things to love and hate on both platforms. Android has more of things that I love, but also more of the things I hate, so I'm an iOS user.", "They are not.\n\nGoogle did the right thing here. They blocked the app from being distributed in the playstore, but they did not revoke Epic's developer access.", "Then deny Fortnite app aproval, but don't revoke their developer credential and impact countless other devs that rely on the unreal engine.\n\nEpic is a flawed messenger, even without getting into the fact that they are owned 40% by Tencent. But even a flawed messenger can have a valid message.", "I've posted this reply so many times that I feel like just copy and pasting it.\n\nThe important issue is not Fortnite getting banned, or even Epics other games getting delisted (which shouldn't happen since Fortnite is the enfringing one).\n\nThe problem is that they banned all of Epics developer access, meaning any third party app that used the Unreal Engine could not be updated because the Unreal Engine is effectively also banned.\n\nThere is no reason the devs for Mortal Kombat Mobile should suffer because Apple and Epic got into a fight over in app purchases over Fortnite. They are not part of Epic, or affiliated in any way other than that they license Epic's game engine. Unreal is one of largest engines out there.\n\nAgain Epic is a flawed messenger but that doesn't invalidate their message.", 'All the devs that built games on top of the Unreal Engine would have been innocent bystanders had Epic not gotten a court injunction stoping Apple’s dick swing.', "All of the phones he listed came out at least 4 years apart. So androids last 4 years, too. Not sure what your point is...\n\n(Edited for the your/you're autocorrect.)", 'Great answer, thank you!', 'Interesting. If i can use my smartwatch with apple ill buy the new cheaper version tomorrow lol. I dont wanna buy anything more expensive because i dont use it for playing games anymore.', "I just got one. Provided you don't care about having a top end camera it's a fantastic phone for a great price.", 'That’s a potato', "From their competitor's yes. The actual security of your data on any of apples platforms is actually rather poor. Their internal systems are all fucked, if a customer can't see it, you bet it's a nasty system with glaring security flaw that they refuse to patch up because they're such tight asses. Seriously they got so much warning about the iPhone release when it took down their entire system for 4 hours. Did they listen to the suggestions of their infra team after that happened and invest in a 3 point backup system which is industry standard? Nope lol..", "I haven't been to a Leafs game, but yeah, the running joke here in Toronto is the Leafs' losing streak.", "Blokada is a DNS blocker that uses the VPN to work. Can't have two VPNs on at the same time, so no.", "IIRC a lot of that was due to APIs that allowed too much data to be loaded, and allowed some friends data to be loaded, the original idea being to allow for social experiences (eg. on Spotify it could show music that your friends like). These APIs have been significantly locked down, and these days people complain that the APIs are too locked down and aren't very flexible. It's a tradeoff.\n\nGoogle is similar, by the way. If you log in to a site or app with Google, the app can request access to all your Gmail emails or Google Drive files. The permissions are shown on the login page, but I've seen people blindly click through those...", "> Google would sell that data\n\nHonestly, I don't think they would actually sell it. The main competitive advantage is their data. If they sell the data, they no longer have that advantage, as any other company could just buy the same data and be able to target ads themselves with it.", 'I have to wonder if a class action suit to define the exact transaction taking place would be able to tease out a real admission.', "Any way of knowing the granularity of the data being passed around? I'm all for being bucketed in with a demographic to gain insights, but not cool with my email address being shared (for example)", 'Google does not sell the data of individual A to company X. Google acts a platform where the aggregate data enables it to decide how advertisement Z is most effectively distributed to its universe of users. There is no explicit exchange otherwise Google would be losing it’s intelectual properly.', 'Companies pay google and facebook to serve targeted ads to people on those platforms, but neither company sells your information to third parties. If I’m running ads on Facebook for my company, I can define the type of person I want to see my ad, but I can’t acquire information about individual users.', 'Can’t argue there. He controls more assets than arguably any CEO in history. \nHe has a board to deal with but still.', 'They sell targeted ads based on your data. Lots of data. Location, browse history, searches, purchases, comments, emails, messages, etc.', 'how bout we meet in the middle. Give google 5 things that they like out of a list of 100, so they can semi-personalize ads without tracking data. Literally what most non-tracking sites do', 'It’s the Fox News problem. FN has been hit with so many boycotts that a lot of top tier advertisers don’t want to take the risk of advertising with them. That’s why so many of the commercials on Fox News are for shitty scam products like gold, reverse mortgages, and bad pillows.\n\nMeanwhile these shitty advertisers want low costs for their ad placements. Fox News has tons of viewers, but demand for advertising spots is lower than you would expect.\n\nAdvertisers are willing to pay more for targeted advertising because it’s more likely to result in a sale. But morons will jump at the opportunity to blast their shitty ads to un-targeted people because they think they’re getting a great deal on cheap advertising.\n\nAnd every time Tucker Carlson or Laura Ingram opens their mouth and unleashes another thinly veiled white supremacist screed, the ads get slightly shittier.', "Fuck all that noise.  I don't pay any attention to the ads anyway, so I'm not willing to give up my privacy to make the intrusive things that I ignore more personalized.", "right.  people can't assume that chrome feature sets are universal.", 'social media in general. but no, those extra steps make everyone feel warm.\n\nBut yes, when reddit first began, they also started with sock puppet accounts to make it looks like more people were available than reality.', "Ahhh, I must've caught the wrong end of the stick with what you said! Although I am a bit shocked that there isn't more variance in why people are right wing over there. I live in the UK and you only have to go an hour up the road in a car to have slightly different reasoning.", 'In BC. Agreed, until I see different. Not in the media’s but in real life. 👍🇨🇦', 'Do any of your non white friends ever use casual racism? Or is it just specific to white people?', 'Rule of Law', 'Yeah, that doesn’t **at all** support your claim that “Google gets all of Apple’s data and sells it.” Or any of their data, for that matter.', 'Its either personalized ads or paid services. Companies have to make their money and if you decided that the most effective and unobtrusive way to do it isn\'t allowed, be prepared for the the other profit model that they\'ve been avoiding for years. Spotify is a good example, don\'t be surprised to see the free version get more and more limited as their profit model is now ~50% less effective (based on market share of iPhone users.) Fully paid services are fairly rare now but that\'s about to change if this sticks.\n\nMy sister does marketing for a company that sells a consumer-grade laser cutter, nothing evil there, and they sell them effectively by finding people who are interested in these technologies and showing a relevant ad. Even with targeted ads, the successful sales are still a sliver of ads shown and that\'s about to get smaller. They will now make less money (possibly losing investors) and more consumers to remain unaware and go for the easy options made by well known companies with name recognition. This is a huge win for the big guys.\n\nI\'ve always hated ads, I\'m strongly anti-consumerism in general, never even owned an Apple product so this doesn\'t apply to me, I don\'t buy new clothes, etc. but I still much prefer a free internet using my data to show me relevant things on free websites than the same ads showing me pigeon carriers and other shit I couldn\'t care less about.\n\nThis is the most corporate move ever but they made it sound nice by turning it into an attack on facebook (the enemy that everyone and their mother uses every day) and putting a little "for a better society" on top. They barely even have to try and we\'re all-in.', "There's NoScript and other add-ons for Firefox. Probably Chrome too, but if you're concerned with fighting privacy-invading corporations then don't use Chrome.", "I know I piholed my house and use very few apps overall.   I get it, I can't completely block them, but I don't have to open the fucking door and make them welcome.", "people don't care about their privacy but also don't realize how invasive zuck is.  my family still makes fun of me for walking away from Facebook and I've missed a lot of events since they only use Facebook for invites.   doesn't matter   I refuse to give up my privacy and let them invade.", 'Unfortunately, this post has been removed. Facebook links are not allowed by /r/technology.\n\n*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/technology) if you have any questions or concerns.*', "I just don't like when people claim that you can control your Facebook feed. That is only partially true if you are extremely active with every profile and page you interact with and dig into menus to set your feed away from default *every time* you access Facebook. Ain't nobody got time for that. And for what? So you can still see ads every 4th post that are often designed to trick you into thinking they are news or someone you follow.", 'I kept doing exactly that for awhile until I felt it was pointless thing to do. In the end my feed filled up with ads, my friends also don’t update much on their feed either. Now I mainly use Reddit on Apollo and Twitter on Tweetbot to avoid ads and read things that interests me. I think now I do have more control on the content I encountered than I was on Facebook. Toxic comments and posts/tweets from Reddit and Twitter don’t affect me much maybe because they come from strangers and not from my Facebook “friends”.', "If it still sucks then you haven't really curated as much as you can. \n\nWhy do you even follow people that post stuff that you don't want to see? Just unfollow them", "Unfollow the people that post shit. Simple as that, really.\n\nHeck, I've had a Facebook account for ages, but over the years I just unfollowed or unfriended whoever I didn't like. Some I kept in my friends list, for various reasons.\n\nBut, honestly - I barely use it. I use Messenger, because most people I talk with are there, but we rarely actually go to Facebook.com\n\nI have uninstalled their app on my phone, I use Swipe Pro instead. I have turned all the notifications off in that app, as I rarely care about something there.\n\nI do occasionally go directly to the website or open Swipe Pro, like once a week, but that's about it. \n\nFacebook is what you make of it.", "Unfollow the people that post shit. Simple as that, really.\n\nHeck, I've had a Facebook account for ages, but over the years I just unfollowed or unfriended whoever I didn't like. Some I kept in my friends list, for various reasons.\n\nBut, honestly - I barely use it. I use Messenger, because most people I talk with are there, but we rarely actually go to the website/or use the app.\n\nI have uninstalled their app on my phone, I use Swipe Pro instead. I have turned all the notifications off in that app, as I rarely care about something there.\n\nI do occasionally go directly to the website or open Swipe Pro, like once a week, but that's about it.\n\nFacebook is what you make of it.", "Yes, no shit Sherlock. But if you mute them and you miss your idiot sister's picture of her crotchspawn and don't Like it, that also causes family drama.", "People do, but Facebook doesn't, which is the point of Privacy.\n\nAlso, it's been documented that Facebook may even know who you are without ever having an account in the first place.\n\nhttps://www.reuters.com/article/us-facebook-privacy-tracking/facebook-fuels-broad-privacy-debate-by-tracking-non-users-idUSKBN1HM0DR\n\nWhats worse, as Facebook dies, they're going to weaponize that data as much as possible in as many unseemly ways as possible.\n\nSo\n\n1. If you really want to remove yourself from facebook, you may have to change all the data to be invalid, because if you just delete it, it'll be obvious and potentially track you via your friends.\n\n2. There's far more danger in it dying a bloodly, monetized death so we _do_ need to advocate for more than just abandonment. It's akin to a nuclear stockpile in the hands of a failed russian state.", ">Lastly, Google does give you the tools you need to [see what they collect about you](https://gizmodo.com/everything-google-knows-about-you-and-how-to-delete-it-1834633034), in addition to being able to keep a copy of it, and to close your account.\n\nThis is for sure not the extent of the information they're collecting. \n\n* You may be able to clear out your voice search history, but I am extremely skeptical this does anything to the downstream categorization they've already calculated.\n\n* Back when I was using Google News and clicked some clickbait Breitbart News headline in curiosity I'd start getting a lot more alt right garbage in my news feed. Try to find anything about that to delete.\n\n* There is a good chance they've been lying about incognito data they were collecting.\n\nhttps://www.vice.com/en_us/article/m7jvvp/google-sued-tracking-users-incognito-mode\n\n* Google is at the forefront of cookieless tracking, aka digital finger printing.\n\nhttps://blog.mozilla.org/internetcitizen/2018/07/26/this-is-your-digital-fingerprint/\n\nThis allows them to track you and create a profile for users who are not signed in. Singing in just one time is enough to tie the device to your profile as you or a member of your household.\n\nGoogle has been busted for shady data collection dozens of times. They've dropped the 'don't be evil' training. It's just too profitable to personalize advertising. \n\nYeah they won't tell anyone (except law enforcement) what you personally search for, but I'm not comfortable with the amount of info they have.\n\nA lot of people seem to have this naive view of Google as a good and honest company. Back when everyone thought Microsoft was the devil that may have been true. But make no mistake, they don't care about you. Alphabet is one of the largest companies in the world, and profit is there first priority.\n\nI maintain it's foolish to trust Google. They're not as transparent or consistent as you seem to believe.", 'What subreddit would I even post it to though', "Yall are the ones taking 1 good deed (aka a smart market move) and acting like it's the fucking company philosophy.", "Why? Because it broke and you want it to work again? There's so many examples of Apple own repair shops recommending people to buy a new computer because it can't be fixed, then they go to an unlicensed repair shop and it was completely fixable for 25$. The problem is apple tries to make you buy a new device rather than repair it easily.", "I just mean to say public companies are obligated to maximise returns for investors (you said none are). It's a horrible precedent, but it is what it is.", 'Get off your high horse holy shit', 'That is simply untrue. User agreements, shoddy apps with compromised code, cloud based everything. Google/Android has made it so everything is coowned by them. All googlephoto uploads. That’s not exactly locked down and it’s how the platform operates. This is why iOS is only on Apple and Android is essentially open and free on and other device. It’s a different approach to tech ecosystem but with a different set of values too. There is a lot of value in unlimited cloud and thoughtless backups, and yes you can turn some of that off but simply using your android device sends data back to big G to be sold and used in marketing. With Apple you are paying that price yourself. Nothing in life is free.', 'They already have', 'Riveting tale ol chap. No attempt to scare you.. just prove my theory. I legitimately find it interesting studying plebs', '“Most of the paid apps on my phone have a one-time upfront cost”', 'A reasonable reply! \n\nPlease explain to us the differences in quality control, component and production quality of a flagship android compared to an iPhone.\n\n😂', '>I\'m not nitpicking semantics, I\'m being deliberately specific to try to coax a similarly specific argument from the people give me shit, because they\'re really giving me nothing. "Targeted ads are bad, m\'kay?"\n\nPerfectly reasonable in this case, I think I simply misinterpreted the intention of your engaging with those above.\n\nAnother useful component of these data are in epidemiological applications, as they paint a much more complete and wholly honest portrait of population consumption and habitual dynamics than self-reporting could ever hope to.', "Ads targeted or not are irrelevant to me anyway, so why would I want a company to make money off my data? Apparently you like seeing ads that are relevant to you; I can't relate.", 'You can probably get a battery replacement. That really helps on phones after a couple years', '...and they don’t throttle older models/iOS anymore[Apple throttling ](https://venturebeat.com/2020/03/02/apple-agrees-to-500-million-iphone-throttling-settlement-25-per-device/)! So that makes a huge difference!', 'Check your battery life if its low in the apple store they’ll swap it out for a new one.', 'You can check battery health in the settings easy enough, anything below or around 85% is likely due for a replacement, not too pricey usually and can really get a lot more life out of a phone.', 'A lot of that has to do with how you carry your phone while not in use. Always turn off the screen and carry it in a position as close to upside-down as possible. Lifting the phone causes the screen to come on by default (think it can be turned off) so this actually ends up draining battery. It was happening to mine until I figured out what was going on.', 'It takes batteries like 300 cycles to get degraded to have noticably less charge', 'Same, they would have to do a lot this year to make me upgrade.', 'I\'m still using a 5c that I bought refurbished and I have no complaints. I think I have an iPhone 2 somewhere in a drawer. I finally threw away my late 90\'s car phone... God, the clarity on that thing, though! Remember analog? Pepperidge Farm remembers. \n\nTo me, any new tech just gives me features I didn\'t know I needed and then I "can\'t live without them" so I try to avoid upgrading until I\'m forced due to software not being supported anymore, LOL. I\'m still on Win 7 because 8 pissed me off so much. Also, still using an iPad 2 because I\'m cheap and it was expensive like, a hundred years ago. \n\nI keep the Apples because of privacy even though I know that every tech, everywhere is spying on me. \n\n\nI remember saying to my husband, and this was before Gmail even existed, I think, "One day, we\'re going to be mad at Google." and we both chuckled a bit because, at the time, they could do no evil in our eyes.  I think I also *may* have also offered them all the info they could ever have wanted in exchange for all of this magic convenience they were inventing. Naturally, I\'ve been re-thinking that. \n\nI just don\'t know how uninteresting I must continue to be in order to be left alone. \n\nThanks for coming to my Ted talk.\n\neta: this 40 y.o. just realized that she managed to fit two [equally old] memes into one post. does she get a medal or something', 'I’m on the yearly iPhone plan but when the 11 came out, I really wasn’t excited enough to exercise my option so I will likely have a paid off phone when the next version comes. I’ll wait to determine if I want to upgrade - I am on T-Mobile so 5G may actually be a real thing.', "If only security updates lasted longer than about a year on plain Android phones. My dad's rocking a OnePlus 3, they're still pushing out updates for that thing!", 'For sure. Just wait for 5G to drop. We will all  have to upgrade then anyway.', 'Yea 2019 just kind of happened', 'Same here. My battery is at 77% and needs servicing. I have been on IOS14 Beta and its great but except the battery life which is expected. I have an option of replacing the battery but i need a dual sim phone and hence i have been holding off replacing the battery as it might affect the re-sale value.', 'I got an Xs for Christmas the year they came out. I love the phone. On Tuesday, all the speakers stopped working. I went to Best Buy for a service appointment. Gave me a new (completely refurbished) phone, Praise be to Apple Care+, which now starts over. Have a brand new battery. Shiny new case. \nI’ve had iPhones since the 4s and this is the first time I’ve had an Apple product fail due to a hardware problem. I will never have anything else. Apple’s customer service can’t be beat. \nWe have an embarrassing number of Apple products at our house.', "They make them with obscelence in mind. \n\nApps won't run on a 4 year old phone bc the new operating system updates aren't supported.\n\nBattery life gets worse and worse and can't access them to replace anymore", 'I try not to upgrade my phone often. I just got an iPhone 11 Pro Max and will probably get the next iPhone because it’ll have 5G and hopefully a 120hz refresh rate, and then after that I’ll keep the iPhone 12 Pro Max or whatever they decide to call it for 5+ years', "I simply can't justify the cost they are charging for these phones. My first 'smart' phone came from a pawn shop. I used that for years until a friend donated his old S8 to me (with cracked screen). I was so happy with the upgrade as I could actually get a few apps that wouldn't run on my old one.", 'I can buy an iPhone and sell it the next year for 70-80% of retail. So for a couple hundred bucks I can get the newest phone.', 'It depends really. My plan is on a 2 year cycle. Every time my plan is about to expire my carrier calls me to get the new iPhone for “free” if I renew the contract 2 more years. It happens to fall 1 month after the new iPhones are released and by crunching some numbers I figured sin the first time I got the call that I’m basically paying a bit less than half the full price of that iPhone through those 2 years. I got an iPhone 11 Pro Max last oct/nov and after 2 I will have paid 480 usd for it (comparing all payments to the plan I would be paying without the phone. I see it as a win/win. I pay half for a top phone while they get a 2 year contract with me. Regarding the obsession for consumption I have no answer because it is simply true. I do pass my “old phone” to my mom who continues using them until the next 2 year cycle. She is currently rocking an iPhone X and it’s still working like new after a battery change.', "Totally with you on this. I *used* to get a new phone every 2 years - but that was back when phones weren't pocket sized computers and free with a contract, or at most $199 with contract.  The first year I had to pay $750+ for a phone (I don't know why they are even still called a phone, because it's probably the *least* used feature anymore) I stopped upgrading so often. In most cases, there's no upgrade so revolutionary that I need it right then and that's more than I can really afford. And even if I could, I'd still have a very hard time justifying $800-$1100 costs every year or two. If my phone breaks or I'm hitting the point where apps aren't working well is the point I feel forced to upgrade.", 'Agreed. The rare earths and metals needed to make new phones is insane and destroying some nations who mine the stuff. \nPeople need to chill on the status shit.', "In Australia lots of contracts let you upgrade after 12 months instead of 24 for $100. You have to trade in your old phone though instead of getting to keep it, but most people I know don't care about keeping it anyway.", 'I believe most people who upgrade regularly sell their previous phones for quite a bit. So they only really need to really invest about $100 or so.', "I'm really rough on stuff and i break phones unfortunately often. I'm not gonna say that it's not my fault but I am gonna say it's fucking ridiculous that they expect people to pay $1000 for something that can break so goddamn easily. but that's part of planned obsolescence in a sense I guess. if your phone was durable and you didn't need to buy all these peripherals to protect it or replace it occasionally, that's a lot of money not being siphoned from working class!", "The obsession with consumption is the one that gets me, especially here in the US. There's advertising *EVERYWHERE* now. EVERY company is just trying to get everyone's last dime and I'm sick of it.\n\nYou just got a new car that costs you $500 a month for the next 8 years? Congrats, IDGAF. Enjoy paying $50,000 for a car that won't be worth $5,000 when you get done paying it off. Oh, you're not planning on paying it off, just turning it back in for the next model when it comes out? That seems smart. Keep rolling that negative equity into new loans, have a car payment forever. The bank said you qualify for it, so why not, right?\n\nYou just got the new iPhone that you pay $60 a month for? Congrats, IDGAF. Enjoy paying $1200 for a device that will be obsolete by the time you pay it off. The phone company said you qualify for it, so why not, right?\n\nFake it till you make it, right? Guess what. You're never gonna make it, but at least you'll *LOOK* like you made it, even if you are only living paycheck to paycheck, no savings, and no rainy day fund. \n\nI'll keep my two, few years old, completely paid for, and still in excellent shape vehicles and my paid for Galaxy S8. I'm putting the money away that so many people use for these frivolous and unnecessary monthly purchases. \n\nI'm gonna make it and know one is gonna know it but me, and that's just fine.", "It's not being poor so much as not paying the credit cards on time, running over the card credit limit, running over your total credit limit, heavy credit utilization.\nKeep your individual card balances and your total credit usage under 25%, under 10% is better, under 5% is best.\nPay off balances as soon as the credit card operation will allow you to pay them, usually 2-3 days in my experience. Avoid letting balances sit through the billing period and never use the ≈25 day “grace” period.\nFind out the closing date of your billing period and do your very best to have a 0 balance a day or so before the closing date. Use a different credit card that has a different closing date during the 3-4 days around each card’s closing date.\nWatch out for changes in the card agreement. If available, have the credit card servicer(s) notify you on your phone screen of changes, closing dates, etc.\nNever use a debit card for anything but getting cash from an ATM, or, if they will accept it, to pay on a credit card. Some will, others will accept payments only by billpay from your checking account. Unless you always have a large balance in your checking account, don't use the credit card servicer's autopay even though they should notify you a few days ahead of an upcoming autopay debit/transfer. Then check to make sure it went through.\nCredit cards carefully managed will raise your credit score, which gets you better cashback card offers, lower insurance premiums, better job offers – yes, employers and prospective look at your credit score. So do landlords.\nMy credit score went from 0 to over 700 in a couple of years by careful management of a few credit cards.\n0 = no debt, not even a credit card, for over 10 years. The vampires have to get a little bit of blood or they hate you and tell everybody that you won't play the game.\nUsing credit cards and other credit carefully doesn't necessarily have to cost you any more than your time managing your credit usage.", 'Maybe you can look into getting an iPhone SE 2. It has the power of the latest iPhone, but in the form of an iPhone 6.', "Yeah, that's what I thought. I feel like switching your phone even after 3 years feels early. I'd feel bad to switch that fast.", "I mean, sure... that's great if Apple can be proven to consistently choose the side of privacy (*even if I'm not convinced that can be proven*)... \n\nbut they're so unbelievably anti-consumer in so many other areas that I can only imagine their stance on privacy to be a cold, calculated business decision; where Apple can ***afford to trade*** the ad revenue generated by violating your privacy for thelong-term revenue generated by privacy-focused users buying devices (*after which they have those users in a captive walled garden, where Apple takes a 30% cut of practically all software sales*).  \n\nOn a long term scale, the right business decision for most companies is always finding a way to obtain recurring revenue... and Apple does that best by locking users into a device with a walled garden environment.\n\nGoogle, Facebook, et al can't do this.  So they do not have the same options as Apple.  They don't have the ability to drive customers into captive markets where they take a lion's share of the revenue.  So they can't afford to make the same choice; they choose to violate your privacy for advertising dollars, because it's the option available to them which generates the most revenue.\n\nIf Apple's captive market of iOS users begins to dry up one day, you can all but guarantee that Apple will begin to look for alternative revenue streams... one of which will almost certainly be advertising... and that's about the same time you'll probably witness their stance on privacy begin to change.", 'You’re correct and likewise all android phones , windows surfaces, etc have many if not all components and labor from Chinese slave labor not to mention minerals locked down by China.  Just because the same logistics line has truly heinous issues which need resolved by absolutely every one of the vendors and we are forced to choose between the evils doesn’t mean that we shouldn’t line for the ones trying to do something about it.', 'I agree. No one is forcing epic into apple’s app store, or sony’s, or microsoft’s, or google’s, etc.', "> I think it's kind of ridiculous for Epic to expect to use Apple's infrastructure, platform, software, hardware etc. for free. I\n\nI think it's kind of ridiculous that **hardware purchased from Apple** is not owned/controllable by the person who purchased the thing. But here we are.\n\n>  it seems like an obvious thing.\n\nIt's not an obvious thing that owners of computers are restricted from running *whatever* software they want on it. At least gaming consoles, where it was problem before, have the excuse that maybe they're sold below costs. Apple products are obviously mostly *definitively not that*.", 'It ain’t about free but about the fact they do have side deals for lower rates', 'They sided with Microsoft ONLY on the developer credentials for unreal engine because *ding ding ding* Microsoft has game development studios that publish on iPhone. This would prevent them from releasing their games.', 'Well, Epic didn\'t enjoy side-loading, and had to put Fortnite on Play Store. I also like how they wanted a special deal with Apple, but got rejected and decided to file a lawsuit and pretend like the fight is in the name of customers and developers—Epic is fake as hell. Also, the only reason why Google is "not the same," is because Android uses part of Linux (if you use Linux, you agree to their terms). Otherwise, let Google release their own Fuchsia, and it will be just another locked OS with its own ecosystem.', 'How’s that different from jail breaking your iPhone?', 'What percentage of android users do you think are sideloading apps? 2, maybe 3% being generous?\n\nIf you want to make revenue off of an android app, you’re forced to use the App Store.', 'I can compile an application in Xcode and drag/drop it onto my phone from my Mac.', 'Anything that fucks Facebook over is a win in my book', 'When presenting an argument, constant use of a dick metaphor is hard to beat.', 'Google:   \n\n\n\\*laughs in eye of Sauron/1984\\* "Your privacy are belong to us."', 'They’re getting more publicity for it than google at the moment. Doesn’t mean anything is different between the two in this area.', 'Yeah ... But downloaded random apks on the internet is super sketch.', 'Ah okay. Thank you for enlightening me.', 'Not disagreeing or arguing with you here, but where did you get that Apple is 50%-75% of mobile app purchases worldwide?', '>\tThey have a monopoly within the iPhone atmosphere.\n\nIt’s their product, including the market.  That means they are allowed to control it as they see fit.\n\nBecause there are other competitive smartphone options available, you have other options outside of iPhone.  For iPhone to have a monopoly they would have to either be the only smartphone option or the only main smartphone option.\n\nThus they can be a monopoly within the iPhone atmosphere, as you call it, because you aren’t forced into it.', "Not every cloud service has the keys to your encryption. Just the ones that hold your hand so that you don't actually need to do anything. \n\nSo apple.", 'Yeah, but if you are going to sell through the App Store, you are gonna need to follow their rules. It is the same with the play store or steam; they all take cuts. Also, through their App Store they are providing you with access to million of users.  Idk I feel like it is a tricky situation.', 'So much nuance to your argument! Read below and learn not to be a dick.', "Secretly\n\n^*don't ^^tell ^^^anyone\n\nMicrosoft owns apple", 'Oh I\'m not arguing there aren\'t casualties, Epic kicked this shit off and they don\'t care who they hurt.  But you\'re deluding yourself if every name on your list of "victims" isn\'t just sad they didn\'t think of it first.   Are you actually feeling bad for Microsoft?  Netflix? Spotify?  Don\'t let the fanboying get in the way of the fact that they don\'t give a shit about you.', "Apps don't need file access to save files in their own sandbox. The fact you can't even save files where you want with an iPhone is a joke. Android 10 got rid of global the  clipboard. You are giving Apple blanket access to your phone, and Apple does have managed Apple IDs for businesses. Your concerns about file access and clipboard were fixed in Android 10. https://developer.android.com/about/versions/10/privacy/changes", 'The fallout of it\'s "message" is what\'s led to other third parties being screwed over or used as collateral. So I don\'t agree that is like for like.\n\nI agree that Apple is acting badly by targeting third party users of the Unreal engine in typical anti-consumer fashion.\n\nEdit: I\'ve only seen a little bit of the coverage but from what I can tell so far courts are not going to allow Apple\'s actions no?', 'Yeah they were screwed for sure.', 'Still using my Huawei Nexus 6P.  Considering my first iphone next though.', 'Your math is bad. The iPhone 4s came out 9 years ago next month. He listed 5 phones. So no, the phones he listed absolutely did NOT come out 4 years apart. I don’t even have to look them up. \n\nAlso, with an iPhone, you get up to date software for 6 years. With an Android phone, it’s 2, 3 years tops.', "It's probably still better than the one in my phone now lol. Everything is blurry and the framerate for videos is garbage.", 'yep, isnt that what "budget" phones are?', "Sorry i didn't know you were from here too. We do have the hockey hall of fame, so that probably adds to the attraction. But for many fans, going to see their favorite team play in toronto is like a pilgrimage lol. Im only half joking too", 'Well yeah I agree. That’s sort of what I said. It’s not against their business policy nor terms to sell data (depending on country) it’s just not as financially advantageous as using that data better than any purchasers of that data could anyway.\n\nBut the main concept of what I’m saying is google already does to the data what people are worried some purchaser of the data would do to the data. And then they sell that.', "The article goes into it far better than I could. I avoid all Google services that I can because I don't trust them one bit. Same with Facebook, for that matter.", 'Facebook wasn\'t sharing your email with different companies, at least through the specific method described here. It was sharing an id (the idfa), attached to your Apple device, that\'s just a random combination of letters and numbers that would not be itself serve to identify you.\n\nIf you\'re an gaming company, you could then tell Facebook "Hey, show my ads to guys with interests similar to the ones that this IDFA has", which is what\'s called a Lookalike Campaign. There\'s a lot more to it, but at least this in this particular instance, your email wasn\'t shared.\n\nApple\'s new idea is to drop this ID all together. Meaning that you should expect to get a considerably worse ad experience (like seeing ads in different languages or about completely random things) when using almost any social media or app in an iPhone, unless you agree to keep sharing your idfa.', "Still not the same thing. They don't have access to you, just demographics.", 'Fundamentally, I think that ads should be personalized by things you EXPLICITLY tell Google (and other ad platforms). You say "I would prefer to see ads about X, Y, and Z."\n\nThe problem is, nobody\'s ever built a system like that at scale. Instead it relies on INFERRING what you would like.', 'Exactly, 100% correct. And this is what will happen if the internet does not have personalized advertising, in my opinion.', "It's very polarized and people generally decide over a few key issues like abortion rights and second amendment rights.  Actually I've just about disconnected myself from the nonsense and don't know why I'm even getting myself involved in a conversation about it.  We had a hurricane last night and I got quite drunk so I'm a little thick headed at the moment.  Have a great evening over there.", "It definitely goes both ways.  People get sick of people's shit and begin to stereotype.", 'Thats not a conservative ideology, In fact Justice its self is a left wing ideology', 'Can you say that with a straight face with the most corrupt and treasonous administration in American history?', "Why tho?\nYou can opt out on data collection on chrome, and I feel like any other browser has optional data collection and you can't be sure whether opting out saves you or not", 'F.B. Purity, my friend. At least for the desktop browser version of it.', 'Agreed. I utilized the “Hide” and “Show less of this” in my feed and in 30 days, the content was right back up on my timeline. The annoying thing is you have to renew your settings every single time. \n\nWhen I deactivated my FB for a short time it would send me emails of groups I was involved in prior with everything I was missing out on, even though my account was deactivated and I specifically made sure to not receive any notifications from Facebook.', 'Unfortunately, this post has been removed. Facebook links are not allowed by /r/technology.\n\n*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/technology) if you have any questions or concerns.*', "That's unfortunate because you didn't use the right blockers. uBlock origin is your friend. I only see ads on other people's browsers.", 'Because you’re probably not female and a relative of mine. \n\nMy family goes bonkers over babies', 'Dude, that\'s an abusive relationship you\'re having there... \n\nFamily drama for a like... wtf?\n\n"Sorry, I do not go on facebook that much, I didn\'t see your kid"\n\nLogic much?', 'It partly is Apple’s philosophy.  And we aren’t ignoring other good and bad things in this conversation.  Don’t misconstrue my points here.', 'I have never had this experience. Not trying to say you haven’t but every time I had an issue Apple replaced the device with basically no questions asked. Even once a shattered screen, handed me a new phone, done. It’s interesting the varying experiences, like yours, seem to be maybe location dependent? Idk.', '> The problem is apple tries to make you buy a new device rather than repair it easily.\n\nYou make a fair point, but I think you are missing something huge. Apple cares a lot about its brand image, like a lot, hence this practises and the reason that they are the most valued company in the world, If you’ve had any warranty interaction with Apple, you’d know that most of the time, Apple just straight out replaces the device instead of repairing it, while at a 3rd party store you were 95% likely to go with repair. The same applies for when you have problems with a device out of warranty, they don’t risk repairing it, because in the long run, that’s safer for them and the customer, and they’ll most likely pay full price for your broken device if you are to trade it in.\nI was recently watching a CNN(iirc) video of how scummy Apple practices were, Apple didn’t repair a device which had water damage indications, but the independent repair shop did, and their “excuse” was that the water damage was not genuine, that’s like peeling off a warranty sticker for whatever reason and then asking for warranty.', 'Ok, just keep being a dick then :)', 'afaik googlephotos is optional. point still remains, you generally control all of that. You probably can be more private than on apple since you have more freedom. eg. I run blokada on my phone. no ads and I can probably disable any tracking. \n\nif your point is apple makes it easier and decides what level of privacy its users have, sure.', '...which is not a sustainable model for anything except the most simplistic app', "You know that's not possible, and anything I would come across if not published directly by the manufacturer would be conjecture. Samsung is de facto the flagship even though the Pixel is sold by Google. I really don't need to defend them though, you can read lots of reviews yourself.\n\nBut anecdotally, I would say that the Samsung and iPhone build quality are about even. There have been some massive flaws in both production lines over the years. But overall just thinking about the last two years, I've seen about the same number of broken screens and water damage on Galaxy devices as I have on the iPhones. \n\nI dunno man, sounds like you are stanning hard for Apple, but the truth is they all have valid use cases and reasons to prefer one or the other.", 'Yes, for upto 4 years is what I believe that they replace batteries for free...Its part of apples warrantee...Post which they charge some 49 Pounds to do it...', 'Agree wholly. I’m still on my X that I bought the February after launch. Still like new and very snappy. Battery slipping a bit but nothing serious. This is a damn nice phone.', 'If privacy is your concern then maybe the 5C running iOS 10 is not your safest bet. \n\nThat thing has been broken into so much they call her the village bicycle.', 'Lmao dude, that’s such OLD news\n\nApple now gives you the option to turn that setting off. Apple’s explanation was that they were throttling to preserve battery, now whether that’s bullshit or not, they took the right steps to resolve and make up for this issue:\n- you now have the option to turn off that setting\n- they offered to replace your battery for free for that year or the two years where all of that blew up\n\nSo really, you just come across as either misinformed, or tin foil hat apple hater', "Its a bit more complex than that. As the phones got older the battery could not longer support peak CPU power draw and issues with phones randomly shutting down began to crop up. The nice thing to do would be to offer customers a free battery replacement for this issue (or at least not be trying to make money off it when it happens), but instead they throttled the CPU to prevent it causing shutdowns, which resulted in the observable slowdowns that people noticed. In addition it doesn't take a cynic to suspect they would hope people would be pushed to upgrade when this happens.", 'For the record- AppleCare doesn’t start over. It carries over from the original purchase date. \n\nAnd the phone isn’t refurbished, it’s remanufactured- Key difference being that the logic board is new and maintains its warranty status, and a lot of customer interacted components are brand new- Storage, camera, and the like. And no components came from devices that were heavily used. Most are from DOA phones with components that weren’t the cause of the issue.', 'I mean, Apple has throttling built into the OS based on battery health, but you can turn it off if you want. And they support their phones with regular OS updates for about six years, so that’s more of a Samsung/Android problem than anything at this point.', 'Apple is also a lot better about that than Android phone makers.\n\nCombined with the massive processing power benefit and security, there are very few reasons I’d ever switch away from an iPhone at this point. Especially since they’re throwing the fast chips into more entry level phone options too.', 'You’ll really squawk when your car’s software starts doing this! Slower and s-l-o-w-e-r and s–l–o–w–e–r and s—l—o—w—e—r...', "That's really not the point. Our obsession with always having the newest and best is the problem. Our species cannot survive on this course forever.", "You can buy kits that will help you replace the battery on just about any of the popular models. Aside from that, there are tons of businesses that will do it for you. every two years is not so bad, but I still think it's a little bit of excessive.", 'Exactly. Countless people are suffering and even dying to get these materials. In addition, they act as a destabilizing force politically. We need to make our hardware last as long as we can. And honestly, what difference does it make if your phone is a little bit faster? The increases in speed nowadays are not that huge. Maybe once carbon fiber batteries come out and so on... But still.', 'I have never broken an iPhone put on a speck case and a screen protector. They are water proof now. I agree with pricing being absurd but it’s not that hard to not break your phone.', "I mean... you realize there's lot of people who can do all those things and more and still easily make it, right?", 'Lmao that may be the most self-serving shit I’ve ever read.', 'Not had a credit card since 1997. My online credit score is 936.', 'I am happy to justify my increased Apple expenses as an investment in my own privacy.', 'What you call a “walled garden” others call a “compatible ecosystem”. I would deeply question what you consider to be “anti consumer”, but if you have any objective examples, I’m all ears.\n\nI personally love how easy it is to move files, copy/paste, stream share, cross-download, etc. etc. between Mac, phone, iPad, tv. Even non Apple accessories generally work with little to no prep or software. Either way, there’s a lot of issues with the “walled garden” analogy.', "Shouldn't we as consumers reject slave labour?", "> No one is forcing epic into apple’s app store\n\nIsn't that exactly what they are doing?", 'Except Epic is arguing that it’s unfair that Apple et al aren’t letting them create their own walled garden. Epic wants the only way to access their games to be through THEIR App Store. They aren’t anti-walled-garden, they’re anti *other* walled-gardens.', "That's mainly because Google screwed Epic out of a deal with OnePlus by interfering and threatening to revoke OP's Google Play certification.", 'People are defending epic because they think epic shouldn’t be forced to use the App Store even though epic is trying to force people to use the epic store instead. The fucking gall of these people to defend that is just beyond me. I can’t even describe how stupid they are. \n\nThere’s a large group of people on Reddit that take any and all opportunities to shit on Apple regardless of how ill informed their opinion is.', "I'm pretty sure you can buy externally and have it show up on ps4, xbox, & PC through your respective studio accounts.   There's just options to buy in the respective stores if you want.  They aren't locking you in & then taking 30%.  So unless I'm reading your post wrong it's not like what you said.", "> If you want to make revenue off of an android app, you're forced to use the App Store.\n\nThis is completely untrue. There are many app stores available on Android. Don't like the terms of Google Play? You have other options available.\n\nhttps://www.androidauthority.com/best-app-stores-936652/\n\nHere's a list of 10 app stores. Some aren't strictly stores but the options are there. \n\nIs the Google Play Store going to be the most popular one? Of course. But you still have the option to sell on other stores, and with the Amazon App being on all Amazon devices and the Samsung Galaxy Store being on all Samsung deviced that's a not insignificant portion of android devices.", "And if you want to send that to your friends, you'll have to have them physically bring their device over, and install it for them.\n\n... And then repeat the same process every seven days since that's how long the self signed cert is good for. \n\nComparing it to Android's process is laughable.", "99% of users don't understand what half those words mean.", "Doesn't that require a (paid?) developer licence through?", "Not really the same on iOS. Those apps are only good for seven days before you're forced to reinstall. \n\nAs for Epic suing Google... Okay? I can sue Google for the colors of their logo, doesn't mean I'll win. \n\nEpic has a little more ground because Google jumped in between them and OP.", '>I mean, frankly, Epic are either incompetent or did that deliberately to garner PR and oh look it’s worked.\n\nThey had an ad campaign ready to go as soon as Fortnite got punted, and have turned the whole thing into an ingame event. You tell me which one that sounds like.\n\nMaybe "ready to go as soon as" is a bit hyperbolic, but they sure did get a fully cinematic ad out there in a hurry after they got the boot. A lot sooner than you would expect from a company that was just blindsided by a big mean app platform.', "1st, Epic doesn't actually own the unreal engine, nor does it's contract with Apple  cover it.  Epic International owns it and has a separate contract for it.\n\n2nd, Epic International leases the unreal engine to 3rd party devrlopers, so attacking it hurts the industry as a whole.", "Consoles are shit too, epic does a lot to fight for cross-platform.\n\nThey're a shit company too but enemy of my enemy etc", 'what do you mean i beat my dick all the time', 'That is slightly misleading. I mean yeah, downloading RANDOM apks is super sketch, but there are plenty of ways to verify the integrity of files from a trusted source. That\'s like saying "taking random pills that you found on the street is super sketch." Well, you are right, but a smart person doesn\'t do that.\n\nIt\'s not like the play store isn\'t riddled with malware as it is.', 'So is downloading "random" programs on my PC. But I do that all the time and with an ounce of tech savvy and common sense, it\'s fine.', 'I never mentioned just random apks.  Can always get them from trusted sources.', 'It’s not necessarily the quantity of purchases, it’s the profit from those purchases.\n\nStudy after study says that iOS is significantly more profitable per user than Android.', "Monopoly isn't about being forced but about having an unfair advantage.", 'The ones that don’t hold your hand charge for download and upload bandwidth rather than only for storage. Which makes them really bad for most people.', "The one important differences though is that\n\n* I *can* get my app on my customers' android devices without distributing it through Google\n* I *can* get my game on my customers' PCs without distributing it through Steam\n* I *can't* get my app on my customers' iOS devices without distributing it through Apple", 'I dont think you are understanding the consequence of revoking epics developer credentials.\n\nIt means any developer that uses the unreal engine is stuck on that version of the real engine. Third party developers that have nothing to do with epic are impact by this decision. Apple had a court injunction stopping this from happening.\n\nWordpress was forced to monetize a free app, because technically you could click on the support page -> view demo page -> link to Wordpress.com from the Wordpress.org demo page -> to the paid version of the product. They went back they got so much backlash from trying to monetize a free app.\n\nHey is a small company, they got a lot of attention because their app work without a subscription and you couldn’t subscribe through the app. Developer created a free demo to comply, apple didn’t budget until there was a lot of public pressure on top of them.\n\nMicrosoft and nVidea still cannot release xCloud and Gforce Now on iOS because apple doesn’t allow separate stores within the App Store. Despite the fact that xCloud is one subscription to play all games, and not a game store. Their rules are extremely inconsistent on this area.\n\nNetflix and Spotify are absolutely getting shafted by apple because they cannot offer app subscriptions without paying 30% tax on the subscription. Meanwhile apple created an exception for Prime Video and Music, and it also has directly competing products.\n\nApple is acting as a regulator, and they have no accountability. I’m not arguing they shouldn’t profit from the platform they created. They absolutely should. But the AppStore is so big, and decisions so consequential that they need regulatory oversight.', 'Apple managed services works if work gives you a managed Apple ID.\n\nOn android even if you’re using your personal google account, as soon as you connect an active directory account the organization could have full permissions to your device.\n\nMy company is like that, if I want to access outlook on my phone (personal non company issued), I have to grant full access on Android. That’s not an option on iOS unless you have a managed Apple ID.\n\nI’m not gonna give access to my personal data to my company, and I’m not gonna carry two phones either. I’m also not gonna switch jobs just to use android.\n\nEdit:\n\nThis is such a problem that Samsung created a whole separate subsystem on android through Knox were you can create a layer of separation between personal and corporate.', 'See this is the problem I’m talking about. Apple has so much market power in app distribution, even beyond the 30%, that they really should be regulated.\n\nA single decision from Apple could impact thousands of products, developers, and consumers. Apple sure isn’t the only one that needs some guardrails.\n\nThat isn’t to say they shouldn’t benefit from the ecosystem they created. They certainly should, but given their massive control of the market there should be some kind of regulatory standard and accountability.\n\nApple and google are the de facto regulators for mobile app development. Sometimes what is on their best interest isn’t necessarily aligned with what’s best for developers and consumers.\n\nThat’s why a neutral third party is so important.', 'He listed 3 phones you idiot', "My math is bad? You can't even count.", "Oh sure it's a decent camera, not bad at all! Just not quite the multi-lens monster of the iPhone 11 :)", 'When i said "budget" phone, I thought it was implied that I ment a phone that isn\'t a paperweight. It still needs to be able to compete.', 'Not Apple’s budget phone', 'True, but a $40 phone isn’t gonna be a good experience, I had one and had to fight to get it to do anything', "Haha, it's all good. And yeah, the Hockey Hall of Fame is the best hockey related thing in the city. \n\nSuch a shame that some kids grow up wanting to watch the Leafs, can't because it's super expensive, and then when they finally do, they just come to watch them lose.", "There is a simple reason, people's wants change as well as their preferences.  You might be interested in gaming and sports cars so you get ads that stuff and maybe other stuff related to that.  Now you could be looking for some tools to buy because your doing house repairs. Will you update your ad preferences? No you won't.  Same with when your preferences change like wanting a SUV.\n\nSales is all about trying to figure out that your looking for something and then convincing that person your product fits their need over another product.  Advertisers want to only target people interested in what they are selling so they get you to buy their product.  Advertising to people not interested not only is a waste of ad spend, because they won't be converted to a sale.\n\nImagine trying to build a system that relied on people to tell advertisers what they want to see ads about.  You would have people to create an account for the ad network and then put in good information and not lie about what they like or even know what they want/need.\n\nHow often do you rate shows/content on Netflix, Hulu, YouTube, Xbox, PlayStation, steam, Amazon, etc?", "Sorry for another comment, but ftom the bottom of my heart I extend my well wishes to you as per the hurricane. I hope things get sorted out quickly. I dont don't need to agree with your opinion to care about ya.", "Wait so you're not Canadian? I thought you were considering the comments you made on people.from alberta, but your comment abiut second amendment and abortion seems to show you're American? We sorted those two issues out decades ago up here. Why are you speaking abiut how people from albeta are.\n\nEDIT: i honestly extend my well wishes as per the hurricane. I hope things get sorted... we dont have to agree with eachother to care", "Firefox has robust defaults on privacy and anti-tracking settings, and they don't have a business model of collecting your data like Google does. Also, there are issues with Google having a monopoly on web browsers. It's important to use and support Firefox imo, but the choice is up to you.", "Or I can just delete my Facebook (I did) and now it's not a thing.", 'Signal as well, but that doesn’t account for the overlay and UA of the android platform itself. I hear you and I think you know 80% more than the average user which means you are aware of your privacy and applications which is great honesty, and you are right that I am mostly considering that these values are built into apples native ecosystem. Does not mean apple sucks; just a different approach to interfacing. It will inherently make for a smoother and more predictable experience since hardware and software are made in unison but at the cost of working completely free within the platform. It will also increase security natively since they are going to be stricter over what apps/programs are running on iOS platform. This is the same argument over Apple that pc/Microsoft have had for 25 years. I build PCs for specific purposes but I use a Mac for my daily. So it works. Just targeting a different audience. Not better or worse per se, but as I said, different audiences. You like working on something or having to be a little more technical in approach while having totally freedom within the OS? Android will get you there. Want a seemless, pleasant, predictable, and totally reliable experience? Buy a Mac. Side note, you should check out Halt and Catch Fire. A bit predictable but really good and focuses on the early days of these philosophical arguments.', 'Funny how it works just fine for literally every other product, _and_ worked perfectly well for software for decades.', '>Samsung and Apple quality are about even.\n\nYou just completely exposed yourself. Sorry. Anyone who legitimately holds this opinion has absolutely no idea what they’re even looking at on the inside of a device. \n\nEven the brand new, 1400$ s20’s are using dirt cheap, horrendous quality PCB’s.. bad quality control - parts out of alignment, cheap automated soldering .. meanwhile Apple uses a custom double stacked proprietary self produced board that are all completely identical. The quality control on the smaller components like cameras on the Samsung and other android devices are terrible, and have basic construction and alignment issues (for example, no two Samsung rear cameras are identical, there’s always some difference in alignment). Android devices love to mask their cheap Chinese internals with a nice screen. Apple doesn’t have to mask anything, their engineering and design internally (and externally) doesn’t even remotely compare to anything else on the market. I feel this is a good reflection of the iPhones as a whole, they do things that aren’t even needed (like securing brackets over all the connectors inside. No other device or company is doing this, it’s just so far and beyond anything else out there that it’s impossible to take anyone seriously who thinks Samsung is on par.\n\nThe little things most people don’t notice are what really sets Apple devices apart from everything else. It’s almost as if they put actual thought and care into their products instead of just mass producing them to make a buck and put out their next iteration. \n\nYou can complain about the proprietary nature of Apple, but in that you get overwhelming performance, security and stability that no one will ever be able to match - which are all extremely important things for a device you carry with you 24/7 and need to be reliable and secure. Which, again is why Apple phones are by far the best mobile devices for 99% of people. For the price, iPhones are an absolute bargain when compared to other devices at the same prices.', 'The best part is we don’t even feel like we’re on an old phone. We look like we have the newest one because they’ve released pretty much the same phone 4 times', 'Got an X here as well. Never really have problems but sometimes the screen likes to think there’s someone touching the screen with me actually touching. The touches are so fast It’s mind boggling', "I just updated to 13.6.1 yesterday or the day before.\n\nIs the hardware a problem, though? I'm all ears if so...", 'Apple gave me the option of two years of AppleCare+. I took it. They registered my phone. The receipt from Apple is in my receipt folder. I know the phone isn’t brand new. It’s refurbished. Just like my other phone would have been if I had turned it in for repair. But I have a new battery and an unblemished phone.', "That is already true, actually.  Verizon's new phone plans are just a flat $50 a month or something (perpetually, no yearly contract), and every 2 years you can just trade in your current phone for a new model.\n\nI didn't read the actual contract (in 2018) but I think new plans are basically a subscription service.", '...Except Apple. Again. Doing things different.\n\nWell taken care of iPhones often push 5 years, and Apple provides software for at LEAST 5 years (some phones have had longer software support than that.)', "I think this may also be the end result of Epic's lawsuit, especially the anti-competitive aspect. If Apple start leasing the phones, instead of selling them, they'll be able to side-step the claims of monopoly more easily.", 'How do I turn it off?', "Lol dude, $750AUD (or whatever it is in USD) is NOT an entry level phone price! There's about a million Android phones that have specs equal or better than the SE in the $300-$500AUD range. It's still nice that they are moving down a bit, but they've got a long way to go before they are entry level.", "Yeah but if you take something that is broken when dropped, and make it something we handle a billion times a day, the incidents of people breaking 'em is just gonna go up. Look how often people break glass or coffee cups, and we don't use them anywhere near as much as we do a phone these days. \n\nAnecdotally phones seem to be getting a bit more robust, as I've seen my daughter drop her phone in a manner that two years ago would've killed the screen, but it survives.", "Absolutely. I 100% agree with you that yes, people do live that way every day and have no issues whatsoever. And my comment is more directed at the fake it till you make it crowd, not the ones that ACTUALLY made it. If someone makes great money and still chooses to borrow for items like phones and cars, i don't understand that logic, but to each his own. Fake it till you make it, but most never do. \n\nThe fact of the matter is that 70% of Americans have less than $1,000 saved, 45% have nothing saved. \n\nhttps://www.statista.com/chart/20323/americans-lack-savings/", 'Thank you captain obvious, I appreciate your contribution. \n\nWho are you serving?', 'The credit scores that matter overall are \n• Experian\n• Equifax\n• TransUnion\n\nFICO scores range from 350 to 850, with anyone under 580 considered to have poor credit and anyone at 740 or higher considered to have very good or exceptional credit.\n\nTo get perfect credit, or close to it, a consumer must pay all bills on time, have a mix of loans—such as auto, mortgage, and a credit card—, have paid off most of these loans, excluding mortgage, and use no more\xa0than 7% of available credit.', "I feel like those are the same things. Walled Garden doesn't only apply to the IPhone- the whole ecosystem *is* the Walled Garden. Walled Garden = very compatible ecosystem- when you're in the garden/ecosystem.", "How about the repair side. Apple consistently tried to get around offering any repairs outside of their own stores & flat out voided any warranty on a device if it was repaired anywhere else. After years they finally have a repair program for 3rd party stores but you have to give Apple access to the personal info of every customer you have, including for 6 months after you terminate their repair program. I have a MacBook but there are many devices I have that don't just work, including just plugging my android into my laptop. I need a cheap 3rd party application to do a simple file transfer.", "No. It's an absolutely basic anti consumer behavior.", 'You want to make your own shoes?\n\n It’s one thing to take the theoretical stance that *consumers should reject slave labor* it’s an entirely different thing to then accept the reality that intentionally avoiding slave labor at any point in the supply chain of any of the goods you consume will require a dramatic reduction in consumption and standard of living in order to either a) pay higher wages for the labor involved throughout, and/or b) make more of the goods you consume yourself.\n\nI’m not saying this isn’t the morally righteous path, I’m saying the cost of taking this path is significant.', "I have to assume their lawyers read the terms before they started selling on Apple's store.", 'No, Epic (The company) is not being forced into any market whatsoever. It’s a free economy, no one forces you to perform business with anyone. They even have their own store now', 'How so?', "How are they forcing you to use their store? Also 30% cut is standard but epic only takes 10% and they actually care about customer service.\n\nDont get me wrong it's still a piece of shit company but I can appreciate them taking on the big boys and fighting for the things I want.\n\nAnd yes, apple aren't alone in the model, but they started it and I feel like it's forced everyone else to in order to compete. This anticompetitive ecosystem shit is bad for the consumer", 'Altering software doesn’t void your warranty under us laws anyways.', '>the App Store is the only way to get software onto an iPhone \n\nThat’s what I responded to. You may as well have just posted the Wikipedia article on emperor penguins for all I care.', 'Yet they would be comfortable side loading android apps?', "They didn't claim to be blindsided and in fact admitted to knowing they were breaking the contract and that there was a high possibility of what happened. Their argument is that Apple is operating an illegal store monopoly and thus every one of their contracts is illegal.\n\nThey absolutely expected that this was the likely outcome.", 'I’m just saying continued use of this metaphor works so long as you can keep it up.', 'No you read it wrong, the dick metaphor is hard which means makes them able to beat.', 'So the takeaway here is that App Stores do indeed have a very high value worth paying a premium for?', 'Interesting. I wonder why...\n\nCould it stem from Androids generally being cheaper than iPhones? People that buy iPhones have more money to spend?', 'A monopoly refers to when a company and its product offerings dominate a sector or industry, not about having an unfair advantage. \n\nThey control only their market that only services the iPhone.  They have no bearing on the android App Store.\n\nIt’s their product.  If you don’t like that product you don’t have to buy it.  It has zero influence on what appears on an android phone.', 'Yup, you got a point there, but I don’t know if Apple would ever allow that.', 'If that were important enough to users, then they would switch (because Apple/Google/Microsoft aren’t monopolies). But it doesn’t seem to be.', "I do understand the consequences.  You're talking about 3rd party developers now, that weren't on your list of mega corp victims.  \n\nI 100% realize that Apple retaliated in a way that doesn't just impact Epic.  Both of these companies are shooting hostages they fully don't give a fuck about.  \n\nRegulation probably IS the answer.  Good luck with that in America 2020!!!!!", "What you say is right, but some people will say, and I don't totally disagree with this, that they created the platform, they created the hardware that works on the platform.  They are being punished for being too successful.  \n\nOf course, we can extrapolate that and say that rich people are being punished by paying more taxes than everyone else, and I don't agree with that either.   \n\nOf course I have no better solution to offer, I don't know what to say about it all.", "To be honest, I wouldn't even know what to do with such a camera.", "Thanks.  We got very lucky.  I was fully prepared but didn't need to even use the generator.", "So after you tweak your settings the only difference is supporting another brand? Not like monopoly isn't a good thing, just asking", 'There is just about nothing that you can buy for a dollar', "As what? Speak plainly. \n\nI've seen both kinds of phone take /significant/ amounts of shock. I'm actually surprised most of the time that people can continue to /use/ these things the amount of abuse they can take.\n\nEdit - oh I see you were ninja editing your comment.\n\nWell that is wonderful information and thank you for sharing it. The next time a user calls to tell me their pcb is out of alignment I will tell them to switch to iOS.\n\nAll manufacturing has quality issues, and there is a threshold that each vendor will tolerate or move their business elsewhere. There are defective iPhones too. I've RMAd them right out of box. Shit happens, I don't call all iPhones failures because some of their power ribbons didn't attach properly. You just get another one.", 'Go into battery health in your settings. If it’s being throttled it won’t say “Peak Performance Capability”. But you can tap on whatever it does say and disable performance throttling. There’s only three things in there, and this will be the middle thing. RIP your battery life though. \n\n\nI work on my phone so I just went and had them install a new battery when my 6s was two years old and max capacity was about 65% and performance was being throttled.', "Turning it off isn't just getting performance back at the cost of battery life. It can actually cause your phone to randomly power off. The way lithium cells degrade means they can't always provide the current needed for high demand applciations and the phone will shut down to protect itself when that's detected. \n\nThat's why they added the slow down in the first place, to keep your older devices functional(though slower) longer. \n\nJust FYI.", 'The iPhone SE has the A13 and starts at $399, which is $550AUD. Same price as a Galaxy A51, but with better processing power, better security and longer update support than the $1200AUD Samsung S20 Ultra.', "My score comes from Experian. Checked it before I ordered the phone to see if I would have a chance of getting it. After declining me they called me back saying that they would offer me a sim only contract but that doesn't help me as I wanted a new phone because certain apps I regularly use have stopped being supported on my phone, the main one being my banking app. It just means I'll have to access online banking through my PC now instead. C'est la vie I suppose.", 'I worked for Call centre, Apple outsourced too for Apple care.  One of the contacts I signed was directly for Apple to own anything I created on a computer. For up to three years after leaving this non Apple company lol.', 'Yeah I get your point, but I also feel restrictive repairs are a necessary side effect to a compatible ecosystem. It’s not just off the shelf hardware that Apple uses, not to mention the software/programming side of compatibility. You could reduce this all the way down to the charging cables that don’t just supply power, they do it under specific protocols. They have to be the right parts, they have to be trained, they have to be regulated, or you start getting phones from “official repair shops” with dodgy parts and dodgy repairs and the Apple image gets damaged. There’s very realistic reasons for these things besides malice. \n\nI don’t have much experience with repair shops because I’ve always done it myself, it’s never been that difficult for standard repairs/maintenance. But your anecdote of plugging an Android into an apple and needing a third party file manager is as ridiculous as complaining that you need iTunes to browse an iPhone on your windows. That was never intended to be standard for Apple *or* android, and complaining about only needing a readily available application to do it is a bit silly. I’m not really sure when people started getting upset that technology doesn’t do everything they expect it to, in the way they expected to do it, and then blaming the company for not predicting it started, but it’s very confusing.', 'The NSA might use some special version of Android, but I highly doubt it. I haven’t seen an Android phone on a DoD or DOE employee in years, although I know Samsung was being used in the mid 2010s.', 'How do they not have “full access” to their hardware? What hardware? Phones? Computers? \n\nDo you mean only allowed applications they *do* profit from? Again, on what? Not the computers. The mobile devices? Ok so every app gets put through the App Store, how is that any different than google phones that don’t let you side load? You mean, *gasp*, a company offers a platform for tens of thousands of apps and wants to make a profit? The horror. \n\nIt’s ok to not like a company, just don’t buy from them. Problem solved. But there’s a lot of wasted anger towards a *company*, and the people perfectly happy with the product, stemming from sheer ignorance and entitlement. Your whole argument here is a company controlling and profiting from an ecosystem they created. If that’s your argument then you have an issue with capitalism as a whole.', 'Explain what you think is objectively “anti-consumer” from them. If you make a claim you need explanation.', "Yes, without any hesitation. Between a choice between unfair labour and anything else, we do anything else. If the only option is slave labour or make your own shoes, you start learning to cobble.\n\nBut because that's a false dichotomy, you don't have to make that choice. \n\n> I’m saying the cost of taking this path is significant.\n\nI do not agree that things being more expensive is an excuse for basic human rights abuses.\n\n> standard of living\n\nWhat the hell.\n\nYou don't get to play of standard of living against slave labour, fuck sake.", "Your point is called an appeal to hypocrisy...\n\n> as they can\n\nI don't agree with implying that slave labour is something Apple has no choice about or is not entirely responsible for.\n\nTo me this is a fairly clear cut issue.", 'Holding the app market hostage because you are succesful at selling hardware is the definition of vertical integration harmful to the market.\n\n\n\nIt is precisely what forced states to create anti trust laws.', 'That’s exactly what they’re arguing. They’re veiling their argument by saying anyone should be able to do it, but Epic doesn’t care if anyone can do it, they just think they should be able to do it. Their whole argument hinges on laypeople thinking app stores should be non-exclusive, but they only want that because it gives them the freedom to open their own exclusive app store . Otherwise they wouldn’t already have done that for PCs, which by design have open access to software. If they really cared about users, you wouldn’t have to use the Epic launcher to play Epic games, you’d be able to directly download and play their games like any other software, but they decided to compete against Steam/Gog/etc by creating a walled garden on a platform that was already open.', 'You don’t understand how they are forcing you to use their store if the only place you can buy it is their store and the only way to access their store is to install their application or program? \n\nApple didn’t start this model lmfao. What are you smoking? Steam did it long before they did.', "The only thing Epic gives a shit about is profit. People have been begging Epic to optimize mobile Fortnite for years! Carl! Years! That's why 60% of Fortnite players are on iOS because the game runs somewhat better. They sure do make shit, shit ton of profit just by using Apple's platform. If they lower the commission and force Apple to allow side-loading—that would be great, but Epic isn't the right company to fight on behalf of developers and customers, because they are fake as hell.", 'A very small percentage of people are comfortable doing anything outside of the official stores. But it is much easier for someone inexperienced to google an app for Android on their phone and install it with a couple of clicks.\n\nMy dad can barely work the remote control for his TV, yet still managed to install YouTube Vanced without any assistance.', "> illegal store monopoly\n\nAn illegal monopoly on their own platform...? So what about Nintendo? Microsoft? Sony? I don't see any third-party stores on their respective platforms.", 'And epic is trying to make their own store where you have to use it to buy their games so they can go fuck themselves with their stupid hypocritical bullshit.', "Accounts have nothing to do with it.    Apple was threatening to shut down anything related to Epic (Epic Games, Epic International, and 4 other affiliates, all on separate contracts with Apple) .  And a judge has already issued a temporary restraining order to stop Apple from doing so while denying Epic Games a separate restraining order for Fortnite.\n\n\n\nHere's the actual court order:\n\n [https://www.scribd.com/document/473560558/Epic-v-Apple-TRO-Order](https://www.scribd.com/document/473560558/Epic-v-Apple-TRO-Order)", "it can feel like you're trying to fit a square dick in a round hole at times", 'That was my original point yeah.', 'That would be my guess.\n\nWould be interesting to see if there is an influx of new iOS users since the SE is cheaper than most android phones and has the same significantly faster processors as Apple’s flagship phones. If that happens, I wonder if iOS’s profit per user for developers will go down as lower income users come to the platform.', 'I would also guess that every aspect of the phone and software has to meet a standard of operation. Meaning little to no compatibility issues, the apps are rarely BSOD level of buggy, and you absolutely know your iPhone will work with your other apple products.\n\nThe same can’t be said for Android or Windows products.', 'Exactly. Unfair advantage.', "Those people are idiots. It has long been established that we need to curtail the freedom of monopolists as they abuse their position. A duopoly is functionally no different than a monopoly.\n\nI'd go so far as to say the law should change to treat all companies as if they are a monopoly unless the 5th largest participant in that market segment has >10% market share.", 'Same, all I do is take pictures of my cat, haha', "I don't know what Chrome tries to collect on people, I don't use it. If you're just looking for reasons to keep using Chrome, then you don't need me involved in the discussion.", 'So charge more.', 'It was to prevent unexpected shutdowns. It\'s well known at this point. Yes, Apple screwed up in doing this "behind the scenes" without informing consumers. But what Android maker even pushes updates past 3 years, let alone 5? How many 5 year old android phones could even handle a current OS? The few folks I hear of pushing 3, 4, 5 year old androids are either enthusiasts running custom ROMS, or are still sitting on the original OS it launched with.', 'Gotcha. Mines at 94% about two years in, still gtg', 'wow now the throttling is peddled as a feature? I am a iPhone user for almost 10 year snow but Apple was plain scummy with the "built-in" throttling', "Yeah sorry mate, the conversion might come out at that, but Apple sells 'em for $750 here :(.", "Unless you can install any piece of software you want, then you don't have full access to your device. Goes for any electronic device you own.", "Who is holding the app market hostage? If you don't like one, use another. If you don't like any, it is practical and possible to make your own.", "But other companies CAN do it, right? It doesn't matter if Epic game cares or not. If they can create their own app store so can a bunch of other companies.\n\nAlso, if anyone thinks this is for the user, they're crazy. It's for their profit margins.", "I'm talking about the product ecosystem, Apple products only work with Apple products etc.\n\nHow IS it forcing me, as a developer I can choose another platform (like origin or steam). As a consumer I can use all platforms simultaneously. There's nothing forcing me to use their system at all, certainly now that they're players in the industry and steam doesn't have the monopoly anymore. Now steam is forced to improve their product or die, previously they had to be sued to even have a refund policy.\n\nI also have complete control over my hardware and I am in no way tied to the epic store. Also these days smartphones and computers are basically a necessity, video games are not. I can choose to not play games, I can't choose to not have a smartphone and I can't choose to not use the app store if that smartphone is iPhone.\n\nThey aren't really comparable", "Oh I'm not buying that they're some great defenders of my rights as a consumer, but they're fighting the battles I want to fight and their vision is closer to mine. If nothing else, Epic doing well means everyone else will have to improve to stay competitive. Also Epic's cut from developers is far less than industry standard, their prices are often better for me, they have decent customer service. They're slimy af (I havent forgotten the whole PUBG debacle) but them being there has brought improvements to my life. Also seriously, you think Steam is any better? Or Apple for that matter?\n\nPoint being they're fighting the good fight and no one else is, if there was a better company to throw my support behind I would but Epic is the one fighting the battles and I sure as shit dont have the means to fight it myself", 'Doesn’t matter what they say when the government says something else lmao. That’s just one of those things companies do because people like you don’t understand their rights and won’t fight it.\n\nAlso if you read that is says they may decline service to a device that has modified software. That doesn’t mean they will and it says nothing about fixing hardware issues. Really what that is saying is if you jailbreak your phone they will not help you figure out why something isn’t working. If a physical component goes bad they will fix it.', "Dude. Stop.\nYou are not helping yourself. The entire point of this argument is that Android basically allows you to do stuff. That does include allowing you to download & install viruses. It's really dumb, but the choice should remain yours all of the time. You should not be locked out of installing something you want to install just because the thing in questions in not approved by whomever built/compiled the OS.\n\nWant to be a not trashy OS? Just make the 3rd party/non approved software install enough of a process to insure that peope are warned about & against doing stupid shit. Your OS should just constantly throw warning messages when it believes something you did might be an issue. If you side-loaded an APK, it should throw the proper warnings to let you know that what you did is danerous & make it harder for the app to work properly without your approving any & all access to harware resources. It's fine to make it harder to work around the system, it is not fine to make it impossible or near impossible.", "Hey man I'm not defending them, I'm just stating the facts.", 'I would disagree and say they aren\'t idiots.  But they are opportunists and do not care about the "regular" people at all.  I mean one of them is running your country right now.  At least guys like Obama and either of the Bushes at least tried to help everyone (altho others may disagree).', 'Like a subscription?', 'I still get regular updates for my galaxy S7 which released in March of 2016.', "Yeah but I can buy 3 of them for the cheapest most basic iPhone and every one will be better performing than the iPhone. And yeah you see phones lasting that long because they were decent 5 years ago, they newer one won't last 5 years", 'Yeah, I regularly drain and recharge the battery on mine twice a day so the battery life drops off big time for me. Totally worth it for me to get the battery replaced after two years. I’m absolutely getting my money’s worth. To compare, my wife has an 8 Plus that still has about 75% max capacity and she got it a week after release and my Xs is at 84% after just under a year.', 'As someone who has to deal with this on a regular basis, it IS a feature.\nOnce your phone has reached this level of battery degradation your phone becomes unusable until you replace the battery without this feature.   \n\nA simple phone call can trip the failsafe power off with throttling disabled.\n\nThe thing Apple did wrong was implement it in the background based solely on device age without telling anyone or allowing user choice on the setting.', 'Then we should definitely base all of our opinions about tech pricing on how much it costs for the 25 million Australians.\n\nAlso, which Android phones have better specs than the SE for less money?', 'No, you only attribute it to malice because it’s the only way for you to make sense of it. When it’s impossible for you to know, and impossible that 1000s of employees are actively, maliciously, against you and your customers. It’s pretty clear you have a strong opinion and feelings on the subject, and your admission to using knockoff parts is exactly what I pointed out elsewhere as an issue to “official repair shops”. And you are using the same customer ignorance you accuse Apple of taking advantage of because “people don’t notice!”. Most of the people in your industry are just as incompetent and ignorant as you assume others to be. There are simply so many other options that make more sense than malice, but that’s what makes sense when you have to villainize someone. I’d even accept greed, but acting like the Apple boardroom is a supervillain hideout is just ridiculous hyperbole.', 'And for many things this is pretty much fine, e.g. an oven. But the closer something is to a normal PC the more bullshit it is, and phones and tablets have literally replaced computers for certain areas/groups of the market. Because they are just more portable, "friendlier" (touch focused) computers.', "I'm genuinely grateful for this post.", 'There is a bit of unbiased wording in your first link, but you have to go to the end of the article to find it\n\n“A couple of years ago, Apple  released an iOS update (10.2.1 and 11.2) that introduced a new feature for older devices. If your battery is getting old, iOS would cap peak performances as your battery might not be able to handle quick peaks of power draw. The result of those peaks is that your iPhone might shut down abruptly.”\n\nThe tried to fix an issue where older iPhones would shut down randomly from having depleted batteries ... yeah, real nefarious stuff.', "> which means anybody who uses them at some point accepts it\n\nNo, that's not how it works.\n\nYou do not get to undermine criticism of a companies practices that way.", 'Legit question, what alternative App Store do I have access to on my iPhone (without being jailbroken)', "About ecosystems. I don't think Apple can do shit about expanding their ecosystem. That's like Samsung marketing their watch to work with all mobile platforms, but it's really only Android because most of the functionality is gone when you use them with iOS. It will take shit ton of money to, for example, bring and maintain Apple Watch for Android with shit load of functionality being gone—would that benefit the customer? It's the problem of any ecosystem—it only works great with particular devices. So, I don't get when people are mad about Apple being an ecosystem—there's nothing Apple can really do about it.", 'Good job you missed the point entirely about steam.', "Err the majority of the people saying \n\n>but some people will say, and I don't totally disagree with this, that they created the platform, they created the hardware that works on the platform.  They are being punished for being too successful.  \n\nAre absolutely idiots.\n\nAlso I'm not a citizen of the USA...not sure what relevance the president of the US has to the discussion...and Trump is also an idiot, hell Bush was pretty average and Obama was an utter disappointment.", 'No, like a one-time purchase for more than a single dollar.', "It's nice that they're still updating the security, for sure. \n\nBut it stopped at Android 8.0 right? Android's on like 10.0 now, yeah?", "No you can't (or no they won't- I'm sure you can find 3 $100 dollar android phones but they sure as fuck won't beat out an SE2; hell even if you could get all 3 running together they'd still lose to an SE2 in performance), and why not? Apple has been doing 5 years for 13 years running, what's your basis for you saying that is over?", "You should cause it looks like we are getting screwed over here!! 😆😆😆\n\nPixel 4a\nRealme 6\nXiaomi Note 9\nOppo Reno 2 Z\n\nThey are just a couple that are all around $500AUD. All about the same specs. You guys don't seem to get a lot Chinese phones at this price though. They are really good and as a former iPhone user the $300-500 range of these phones do everything an iPhone does bar some minor improvements like slightly better cameras. \n\nPersonally I don't even use a $500 phone. I'm happy with my $300 Oppo A52. Sure it's a bit less in speed or camera quality, but it's less than half the price, at about 8/10ths of an SE. But I'm also a cheapskate lol.", 'Oh 100%. I wish people would get this invested when it comes to unsecure IoT devices.', 'With those restrictions, none. But no one forced you to buy an iPhone, that is my point. There are multiple app markets, accessed through various hardware. That is a factor in the decision when choosing a phone.', 'https://altstore.io', "They can support other devices if they chose to, but they choose not to. There's no reason they couldn't release android versions of any of their products, there's no reason they couldn't release supporting software for any of their hardware. The reason it loses functionality is because they didn't want to invest in functionality which isn't directly helping their bottom line. If they had less of a market share, we'd see a lot more compatibility, instead they have a large chunk of the market which they've carved out and blocked access to anyone else. Everything they've done in recent years has been to remove choice from the consumer and annoyingly others are following suit", "OK explain it to me like you're not mentally disabled", 'The government will enforce this if they don’t honor their warranty though lmfao. \n\nAnd you’ve got nothing to say about how that link doesn’t have anything to do with warranty repairs either? Just gonna deflect with some offhand remark about how terrible the current administration is?', "Well you are of course entitled to your opinion.  I'm not sure you are in a position to judge people that you don't know, but I'm sure they are more successful than you.", "Correct. Fine by me though. I usually hate software designers trying to fix things that aren't broken/redesign the wheel. Improvements were rare while changes were regular.", "Ya. Apple's SoC is insanely performant across the board. Plus an OS tailored to the hardware. Kinda hard to beat even for flagship android phones.", 'Why do you keep responding my comments in other threads? This wasn’t a response to you, so why post the same drivel multiple times? Is your need to feel right so strong you need to jump to 4 threads to try to prove me wrong? I’m not going to read that complete wall of text because, frankly, I just don’t care as much as you do. It’s pretty clear you have strong opinions and you’ll shoehorn your opinions into whatever narrative you can and shift the goal posts from comment to comment, ignoring the fact that most of your issues are, again, with capitalism and ignorance as a whole. Good luck raging about a company that doesn’t know you exist. I honestly can’t wasting any more time with your comment stalking.', 'There was not  a court ruling on the issue', 'Who\'s giving them a pass???\n\nYou said\n\n> the ones trying to do something about it.\n\n"Trying". You don\'t "try" not to make use of slave Labour. There\'s ya pass.', 'We were taking about Epic’s battle/issues with Apple....', "Thanks for this. You're the only one that actually answered my question :P", 'If Apple was the owner of Android—sure, they would have made the experience and compatibility of the products on part with their own products. They need system level support for most of the products and its features. It\'s not easy as you think. Just installing an app, will not solve the problem. It\'s just not profitable maintaining something that they have no control over. "People who are really serious about software, should make their own hardware." —Alan Kay', 'You’re the one having trouble following the conversation here lmfao. The irony of you calling me dumb. \n\nYou said Apple started it. \n\nThey did not. \n\nSteam did it before them.', "The majority of people making that argument aren't benefiting by making the argument, the majority are just normal people...and they are idiots.\n\nA CEO isn't an idiot for making the argument, they are just selfish cunts.", 'Thats not what epic is trying for though, if that was they case then there wouldnt be a lawsuit against google.\nSo even if apple allowed other app stores, epic wants to live in the main store rent free.\nThey doing this now on google and apple as a trial because they dont have the balls yet to go after the consoles.  They would be next though if it worked on mobile.', '>  They need system level support for most of the products and its features.\nBecause they insist on using proprietary hardware (which is consistently poorer quality I might add, which is why they never seem to last long, the amount of shitty proprietary parts I had to replace I swear..). They dont do anything that couldnt run on android hardware. They could make them in such a way that follows a protocol, but they dont want to because they dont want you to buy a device, they want you to buy the whole ecosystem.', "No, read what I said (maybe you should start with wiping your own ass then move on to the more advanced topic of having a basic discussion) , I'm talking about the product ecosystem. I don't need any steam equipment to use steam. It's not guiding my purchasing over anything to do with playing games besides the games that they sell. Developers can publish on other platforms that work on the same piece of hardware. Literally the only thing steam forces me to do is open the game through their launcher.\n\nNot comparable.", "How do you prove it bricked due to an unrelated reason?\n\nYou can't.\n\nThere is some nuance about what breaks vs what was modified.\n\nYou jailbreak your phone, and later your volume rocker switch fails or the camera breaks then they are obligated to honor the warranty.", "lol I think selfish cunts is the description I was looking for for those people and couldn't find it.", 'Read again friend.  There was not a court ruling on the issue\n\n"For its part, Apple is denying wrongdoing in the case and said it was only agreeing to avoid the cost and burden associated with the lawsuit."\n\nApple should have notified users why they implemented the throttle (to save customers with used up batteries from having their device crash), but the intent was not nefarious.  \n\nIf Apple wanted users to upgrade their device quicker/more often they world make them incompatible with new versions of iOS, that doesnt happen.  IPhone 6s devices can still user the most recent version of  iOS', "> you are specifically blaming Apple\n\nNo. I am not. If I wanted to say that, I'd have used those words. Or other words that indicated that.\n\n> would like you to expound on it?\n\nI do not agree that businesses self policing is a sufficient expectation when it comes to exploitation. Apple is part of the exploitation and are NOT transparent. The link you gave shows this, because it does not cover fair wages or conditions which is also part of exploitation. You should be appealed by how widespread it is. Not offering them praise.\n\nHell, the entire process of suppliers using foreign contract workers by itself a red flag for exploitative behaviour.\n\nThe expectation for Apple and other companies should be nothing less than fair treatment of every single employee at all stages of the supply chain with no exceptions. That they've chosen to source their products overseas makes it their responsibility to make sure this is the case because their suppliers are not held to 1st world labour laws as they would in the the US for example. 1st world countries should hold these companies to account not participate by turning a blind eye.", 'I believe there is a lawsuit against Google because whole they allow other app stores and installs outside of the app store they make it sound dangerous and disable the ability by default, etc.\n\nAt least I think I remember someone quoting that as the reason Epic has given. It is much more grey than with Apple, because it is anti-competitive but it can be argued fairly successfully that it is in the interests of protecting Joe Public, the courts have a complex arrangement there.\n\nPersonally on the face of it, I think Apple should lose and be forced to allow alternative app stores and that Google should win as they do allow 3rd party stores and storeless installs.', "It's impossible from technical stand point, not to say how much money they would need to waste, and that they simply have no interest. iOS, watchOS, iPadOS, MacOS use a completely different architecture and programming language. Again, if you want the best software, you have to use your own hardware. You know why this is possible ([https://m.youtube.com/watch?feature=youtu.be&v=Ms4tHDgQdWk](https://m.youtube.com/watch?feature=youtu.be&v=Ms4tHDgQdWk))? Simply because Apple has full control over their OS and their chipset--only that's why you can see this unbelievable shit. Apple has no control over other platforms. How do you imagine implementing Apple Watch to work with Android without compromising functionality? iMessage? Photos? iCloud? Apps?", 'Lmfao if you are talking about the walled garden ecosystem you should have said that. You want to talk about my ability to have a discussion when you lack the ability to articulate what you even want to say. You then expect people to use divination to figure out what you actually meant because you don’t possess the ability to make clear and concise points. \n\nApple wasn’t the first one to do the walled garden approach either.', 'I had read it was same pre prepared lawsuit in both cases.  Epic added a payment method to bypass google and apples 30% cut on their store. They are fighting to be on both app stores and want 100% of in app purchases.\nI have not seen any state at all they are looking to get an alt store added to ios.   Only as a reason that they should be able to avoid the fee.\n\nBut i will re read later, seems every site says its a diff reason. Will check up on it.', "You're missing my point, those are all choices they made. They chose to create incompatible hardware, they chose to force their users to use their proprietary software. Android offers those services (iMessage etc.) and better IMO. Icloud is expensive and shitty and they dont even have a backup lol, google photos has better search algorithms . Generally speaking google infrastructure is much more sophisticated and reliable. They're in a hole with their own hardware because they dug themselves there. \n\nI'm not arguing that it wasnt good for them from a business perspective, chumps still buy into their crap like its revolutionary.\n\nAlso can you give me a timestamp for that video? Im trying to get your point but I can not be fucked to watch that whole thing.", "iMessage on Android, you mean SMS and MMS? iCloud has a backup. Who gives a shit about Google and Google Photos? They are a privacy nightmare. You mean the infrastructure is so damn good that they have fucked up and people have ended up with having someone else's photos on their devices, to which Google has kindly requested to delete. Reading a video title and skipping through it would be enough to understand what's. Don't tell me you one of those Apple Haters or Android fanboys to whom anything that is not Apple is hell like heaven better. Because I don't see why we should resume this pointless discussion; especially when you obviously don't even want to try to get what I'm saying—you simply have no interest.", 'We determined that this submission originates from a credible source, but we still advise that users double check the facts and use common sense when consuming mass media. If you are interested in learning how to evaluate news sources more thoroughly, you can begin to learn about how to do that [here](https://tacomacc.libguides.com/c.php?g=599051&p=4147190).\n\n\n*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/ukraine) if you have any questions or concerns.*', 'They knew exactly what they were doing. They kept their toe dipped in to see if the profits outweighed the costs from global backlash. Good to see that the pressure was kept on though.', '"We offer our most sincere apology, w are terribly sorry we got caught"', 'Pretty obvious this is their plan. Buy loads of cheap oil, make huge profit  apologize and wait till people forget', "Dock workers not unloading their shit might've helped.", "Weeeee'rrrreeeee Sorrrrrrrry!\n\n\nSorrrrrrrrreery!", 'They still fucked it. Continue to boycott', "About fucking time, Shell. Now donate all of the (frankly ridiculous) profit you made on that oil to Ukraine. Maybe *then* you'll come across as actually realizing how badly you f'ed up. A weak apology doesn't cut it.", 'Shell once again, go fuck yourself.', 'Bought time still never buying shell so there loses they fucked up', "we're sorry... lol", 'Not because they want to, but because they have to. Not because it’s the right thing to do.', 'This is the best tl;dr I could make, [original](https://www.reuters.com/business/energy/shell-withdraw-russian-oil-gas-2022-03-08/) reduced by 77%. (I\'m a bot)\n*****\n> March 8 - Shell on Tuesday apologised for buying Russian crude oil last week and said it would withdraw completely from any involvement in Russian hydrocarbons over the country&#039;s invasion of Ukraine.\n\n> &quot;We are acutely aware that our decision last week to purchase a cargo of Russian crude oil ... was not the right one and we are sorry,&quot; Shell Chief Executive Officer Ben van Beurden said.\n\n> Shell bought a cargo of Russian crude oil from Swiss trader Trafigura in S&P Global Platts window loading from Baltic ports at a record low of dated Brent minus $28.50 a barrel, traders said on Friday.\n\n\n*****\n[**Extended Summary**](http://np.reddit.com/r/autotldr/comments/t9faha/shell_to_withdraw_from_russian_oil_and_gas/) | [FAQ](http://np.reddit.com/r/autotldr/comments/31b9fm/faq_autotldr_bot/ "Version 2.02, ~630589 tl;drs so far.") | [Feedback](http://np.reddit.com/message/compose?to=%23autotldr "PM\'s and comments are monitored, constructive feedback is welcome.") | *Top* *keywords*: **Russian**^#1 **oil**^#2 **crude**^#3 **Shell**^#4 **gas**^#5', "Get fucked, we're never buying shell again", "Coke and McDonald's next", 'US has banned Russian oil (while the eu has not) so they really don’t even have a choice but to stop buying Russian oil', 'I used to fill exclusively at Shell. I would go to Shell despite having other fuel stations closer to me selling cheaper fuel. Decided to boycott it after russian oil saga. They stopped and apologised. Fine.\nStill not going back any time soon ...', "what. the. fuck\n\nEven Shell doesn't want to do anything with Russia?\n\nThat definitely wasn't on my bingo card", "More on this subject from other reputable sources:\n\n---\n- Associated Press (A): [Shell says it will stop buying Russian oil, natural gas](https://apnews.com/article/russia-ukraine-putin-business-europe-51a9408c615e78d845c2668622fadd35)\n- BBC News (A): [Shell sorry and pledges to stop buying Russian oil](https://www.bbc.com/news/business-60661611)\n- Independent (C): [Shell to stop buying Russian oil and natural gas amid Ukraine invasion](https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/shell-energy-russia-oil-gas-b2030920.html)\n- Guardian (C+): [Shell to halt buying Russian oil and gas and close all service stations in country](https://www.theguardian.com/business/2022/mar/08/shell-to-halt-buying-russian-oil-and-gas-and-close-all-service-stations-in-country)\n\n---\n[__Extended Summary__](https://www.reddit.com/r/newswall/comments/t9fg74/) | [More: Shell says it will stop ...](https://www.newswall.org/story/15305929) | [Feedback](https://np.reddit.com/message/compose?to=newswall-org) | I'm a bot", 'Shell still goes to hell', 'Who is Trafigura and are they feeling pressure?', "They're not sorry. They're just not profiting as much as they thought they would be", "Meh that's an insincere apology. What a bunch of pigs!", "If they're truly sorry, they should donate however much the resale value of that oil is to humanitarian help in Ukraine or something.\n\nAlso, this was a clear dick move by them to buy the oil in the first place, but if we don't forgive after they correct their behaviour, there will be no incentive to correct their mistake.", 'Too little too late. Fuck you Shell.', 'Their liquid storage facilities are full for the next 20 years, believe you me. Scumbags.', "The difficult decision to buy oil at a 50% discount with the resale price at a 50% markup. That's a very healthy profit margin that could be donated to negate in actuality the damage of thier previous decision.", 'I don’t understand the whole thing around Shell. You do know that BP, Total, Exxon, Chevron and all the big companies do exactly the same? Shell has at least now announced they are completely exiting Russia. \n\nIt’s wrong to blame this one company. The government is who you should blame. In the UK we are still okay because the country is not that dependant on Russian natural resources. Europe fucked up big time here. German? Continues to buy oil and gas from Russia.\n\nMy point is, it’s never black and white', 'https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=15HTd4Um1m4', 'cool because we already have a lot of crude oil in Europe soils, right ?.... Right ?!', "How do we know that this certain percentage of crude oil coming from Russia isn't being dumped in with much of the other crude oil to be refined? I feel like banning Russian Oil would give us the guarantee that nothing uses the Russian Oil.", 'Yes, finally they got it!', 'Disgusting behaviour, although not terribly surprising.', 'About fucking time! 🤬', "Let's see if they keep their word this time", 'Fuck Shell', 'I have been putting Shell Vpower into my cars exclusively. Not anymore.', 'So we\'re supposed to believe your words "this time"? Or does that translate to, until the next time we\'re offered a sizeable discount? Nope, sorry means nothing. You are predatory, lining your pockets, with crocodile tears of remorse. Will never support your inflated stations again.', 'As bad as Nestlé... Corrupt businesses go fuck yourselves.', 'Shell Oil Company, fuck you!', 'Ahh yes. Big oil and their "apologies". They can fuck right off.', '"We bought enough to last until all this blows over."', "Shell is a corporation, it's only function is to make as much profit as possible. Shell would murder babies and unicorns if they could make a profit and avoid legal issues.", "\\*South Park\\*\n\nWe're sorry.  Sorrrrry.", 'I\'ve always hated the "apologies later" approach to business.  It\'s a complete load of fucking bullshit.', "It was shitty of them to delay this, but it's still a big blow to russia.", 'Ah the good old BP “we’re sorry” 😂😂', 'Fuck them. They knew what they were doing. There are plenty of other gas producers to buy from', 'these companies are at the point where they are dangerously fucking massive.', 'Fuck these idiots, time to leave these fossils behind. And the oil, too.', 'They filled all their tanks and then pulled out. Fuck them', 'They knew what they were doing. You want to make it right after accepting blood money.  give all that oil to Ukraine for free to keep fighting. And pay Ukraine a check for the war effort.', 'So they realized they went back too quick, this time they will wait a little longer for people to forgrt', 'No, we mean it THIS time', "Now let's get Stellantis to stop. They are one of the worlds biggest automobile-company and provide cars to more people in russia than Mercedes or BMW.", 'What is any publicly traded company going to do? Whatever is in the best interests of their shareholders. Until companies are beholden to more than their shareholders, that will not change. Nobody should be looking for morality from a publicly traded company.', "We're sorry.\n\n[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9u0EL\\_u4nvw](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9u0EL_u4nvw&ab_channel=Mizery283)", "They said they will stop buying spot, does that mean they could buy oil futures and somehow get oil delivey later on? Might be a dumb question, I don't know much about commodity markets.", 'Better late then never', "> Remorseful Shell abandons Russian oil      \n\nMore like dockworkers in many countries are refusing to handle Russian vessels and the US is poised to ban the use of Russian oil. I'll remember this and others too, I doubt it'll affect their bottom line in the long run but fuck them all the same.", 'Good. Now watch them buy oil from Venezuela, another brutal regime.', 'My question is how were they going to pay for it? Russia has been cut off from the swift banking system. So unless they were gonna fly there with a suitcase of cash they were gonna have a hard time paying for it', "Way too slow, Shell. You can't have it both ways. We can see you. And now we know about your company leadership and what you value.", "Good. It only took an international outcry and, american politicians to legislate a stop to russian oil.   \n\n\nThey can go fuck themselves though. Everyone knows their apology isn't worth the paper it was written on.", 'Only after they felt the boycotts at the pumps in their own pocketbook!', 'While I 100% support boycotting Russia, I’m actually curious about this from a legal standpoint.\n\nCorporations **only** exist to make money. That’s literally their purpose. In normal situations, shareholders can sue a company’s leadership if they aren’t guiding the company towards maximum profits. \n\nSo in a situation like this where buying discounted Russian oil (while morally fucked) is objectively profitable to the company… how can the CEO turn it down and answer to the shareholders? \n\n(I’m in no way implying they should keep buying Russian oil, just wondering about the legal process)', 'Unless this apology was delivered by the CEO while he was lying naked on a bear skin rug, I will not accept it.', 'Ahh. The too little probably too late approach. \n\nShell Gas Station, go fuck yourself.', 'have you seen the south park episode with the corp guy constantly saying "we\'re sorry"\n\n\n\nYup, this is exactly that... They bought tons of russian crude oil for super cheap.. \n\nHow sorry are you nut bags?', "Hmm. I thought it was like a breach of contract issue where Shell was obligated by a contract made before the war started but after reading the article that isn't the case at all so bug yikes.", "We're sorry for benefiting off the russian war machine. Soooorry", '2 late, never getting my business again', 'Waiting to see what John Deere does', "You wanna apologize? Donate ALL of that oil to the ukranian war effort\n\n'sorry I was war profiteering, but don't worry: I won't do any more (cause I already bought all I could)' is not gonna cut it\n\nYou gotta find a way to get rid of that oil without profiting for anyone to believe there is any weight to your apology", "They aren't cancelling the last order though, they are just saying sorry, funding the Russian economy/military and continue raping/pillaging the environment elsewhere.\n\nThis shit was 100% planned, grab a quick profit on cheap gas, make a show of saying sorry, and keep on going with no ethics.", 'Yep, I’m still done with Shell.  They facilitated countless innocent death.', 'I applaud them for admitting that their previous decision was wrong. I’m forgiving an oil company. \n\nFuck, it really is the end times.', 'Fuck Shell.', 'Lmao', 'Donate any profit you’ve made from Russian oil since the shitshow started and your oh so sincere apology May ring a little more true.\n\nUntil then fuck you, on behalf of every innocent civilian who has suffered so far.\n\nFUCK YOU!', 'Fanta Orange was Hitlers favorite drink.', 'Man, the pressue social media excerts is insane', "I switched already, which has actually been cheaper, fuck'em.", '"We are SO SORRY you noticed" - Shell PR probably', 'Too little too late, assholes', "Will they donate low priced oil - amount they'll make when sold differential to Ukrain's defense fund? 🧐\n\nOtherwise their hollow apologies mean nothing.", 'Germany and the EU still refuse to ban Russian gas.', 'You already bought the oil! Fucking bastards. Your apology means NOTHING! JACK SHIT!', 'Yes, you are sorry. Now we want an apology', 'I encourage people to pressure Shell to make a donation to help Ukrainian refugees with the revenue earned from the oil they bought from Russia. They need to do something to show their sympathy.', "This apology would have been better if they hadn't said anything. What a bunch of clowns. Being told they won't be able to buy from Russia and then turning around and claiming that they've just had a change of heart.", 'fuck em theyre only sorry cause it hit their wallet', "It's amazing how apologetic they got when people stopped buying their stuff.", 'After it bought shot loads for a cheap amount and still made a huge profit. If they donated the profit from that to Ukraine I would forgive otherwise fuck them.', 'It will be a long, long time before I stop anywhere or buy anything with a shell logo on it.', 'Shell, go fuck yourself! Too little, too late, too disingenuous.', '\\*buys tons of oil from Russia\\*\n\n"oH wE aRe SoRrY"\n\n\\*continues to buy more Russian oil\\*', "I just don't see myself visiting a shell station ever again. There is so much choice, so why go buy from the warmonger's financier?", 'Only cos the bastards got caught and it was bad PR.', 'Can we put sanctions on shell forever?', 'Too late. Fuck shell', 'I will still never buy gas from them again. Too late.', 'Too late, just reinforced my Apartheid boycott!', 'Fuck Shell.', 'Meanwhile Engie continues to finance Putler in order to satisfy her customers \nhttps://www.bloomberg.com/news/videos/2022-03-08/engie-ceo-we-continue-to-buy-gas-from-russia-video', 'Fuck them, I will never buy gas from them again. They knew that what they were doing was wrong from the start. If they really felt sorry, they should donate all of the profits they are getting from Russian oil to the Ukrainian military.', 'Don’t apologize, lower fuel prices.', 'Still I am not buying from shell from now on', 'Ope too late', 'Which is why I will continue my boycott of their business. They thought it was a calculated risk. This transcends all of that. This is innocent peoples lives. This is genocide. This is an attack on freedom. This is a defining moment of humanity and shell started out on the side of evil. I recognize their correction of this error, but it revealed their true nature. They only changed because they realized it was a bad business move, not because it was the right thing to do. As such, not purchasing Shell products is still the right thing to do.', 'Desperately needed gas yesterday, cause I wasn’t paying attention to my gas tank. Passed 4 shells till I found another gas station, fuck em.', "Damage is already done in my opinion, I will forever remember that shell did that and I'll end up never buying from them ever again.", 'also, American sanctions on Russian oil are on their way', 'If you know the history, Putin invaded Crimea because Shell was investing in setting up facilities to mine gas in Ukraine. This is the real reason Putin invaded Ukraine and started this war.', 'apologies by shell have never been worth anything', 'Yep too little too late. Not buying from them ever again. Too many other options.', 'A politicians apology...', 'That scene in Southpark where they are rubbing their nipples and saying sorry.', "We bought a dirty great load of crude cause we thought there was a quid in it but we got caught and we're rather embarrassed about it\n\nRight up there after 'the fron fell off'", 'Fuck corporations. They are complicit.', "No this is important. If Shell can be shamed into falling in line it's a signal to all other corporations, even the dodgy ones like Nestlé, that they also need to stop working with Russia.", "They're not even out of Russia. They're saying that at an unspecified time in the future they'll stop sending cash to Putin. They start a plan to eventually phase out their work building the Team Z war machine. \n\nFuck Shell. I'll commit to beginning my plan to phase out my hatred for Putin's Fleshlights in the Shell Board of Directors.", 'They never tried to hide it. They just made the wrong call. I’ll give them credit for admitting they fucked up.', 'Buying for minus 28 a barrel I cannot even be mad. Bad apology and bad morals, but there was no way of not taking that deal.', 'Cant wait for their next apologies when they buy it again under the table', 'Named and shamed', 'We will just go ahead an raise the prices more now.', "painted Zwastikas' on themselves for life", 'That was in the UK, and that port is operated by the National Grid, which the Government has oversight of.  \n\nLet me add sources.\nhttps://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-kent-60619112\nhttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grain_LNG_Terminal\n\nI was interested in this myself when the news broke, so did some digging.  Turns out that the National grid pay a third party company to balance the LNG, and then it gets pumped into the grid from storage, and the gas network we have is insane, how people created such a thing is beyond me.', "Yeah but their actions hardly mattered because the oil in those tankers was already purchased from Russia. Unless people stop buying oil at the source which is Russia then it's not going to making a damn bit of difference.\n\nChances are those tankers just went elsewhere to offload the oil and money was still made.", 'First thing that popped into my head.', 'Their fuel prices around here are almost guaranteed to be the most expensive even before all this went down. I’ll gladly continue to never buy their gas.', 'How do you boycott shell tho', 'They said three days ago that they would donate the profits', 'Soooorrryyy', 'The important thing is that the result will be the same.\n\nI hope that with economy and production chains broken more companies will leave Russia even if they dont care about right thing to do. Soon it will be the cheapest solution anyway. (do you want to finance the factory without components or shop without goods that is not providing any profits? Or do you simply cut the losses?)', 'I mean oil is going for ~$120/barrel, they made a pretty immoral profit. Thanks for the tl;dr!', '🎯💯', 'Yup, that\'s why they said they\'re still helping build Russia\'s oil industry. They only said that they will "phase out" that part, with no timeline.', "This seems stupid. If a company is shitty, then not spending money there makes sense. If they then stop being shitty, then still not spending money there teaches them that there's no reason to correct past shittiness because it won't make a difference.\n\nA fundamental concept of organised action (boycotts, strikes, civil disobedience) is that it stops when demands are met.\n\nI suppose if it's in an industry with high competition, your objective could be to put them out of business entirely, but that's laughable when it comes to Shell.\n\nI also suppose you might want to give yourself a justice boner driving past Shell to another fuel station, and that's fine - just less effective than a proper boycott.", 'But why Shell? Where I live Shell is always consistently more expensive and they have shitty convenience stores with weak snack and drink selection. Literally no reason to shop at Shell before this unless it was strictly convenience.', '>They stopped\n\nCorrection, they announced that they WILL stop, but there\'s no timeline. They\'re still working on development in Russia, but they\'ll start a plan to eventually phase it out.\n\nThe headline should be "Shell Still Funding Putin"', 'Nope, they said that they are still proudly building the Russian oil industry to help out Putin\'s murder machine. They\'re only going to "phase out" that part. No timeline though.', 'I was looking for this one. The south park "I\'m sorry" literally ran through my head at just reading the title of the news article.', 'Using URL shorteners causes your post to be automatically deleted. Please repost your comment without the shortener.\n\n*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/ukraine) if you have any questions or concerns.*', "Don't forgive them: see through their bullshit. There is no morality in the oil business: only destruction and depravity.", 'Amen, especially when it is not like they backed out of the deal. They still are sitting there with their pockets lined', "All businesses did the same calculation, but Shell just had more to loose than all of the others who stopped doing business first.\n\nI don't buy one second that all of those brands that are closing their stores in Russia would have done it if not for the pressure of their customers in other regions.", 'Oil companies and genocide are like best friends.', "Shell supporting real life bomb shells it's unfortunate.", 'Yep, fuck shell. Never getting gas there again.', 'Revealed their true nature??\n\nWhaddya think that an oil company was a paragon of human virtue just waiting to reveal their evil ways?', 'Same', 'Perfectly stated.', 'War Profiteering Shell Oil company , go Fuck Yourself', 'Do you even know what genocide means?', 'What genocide?', "This is true and all but\n\nRight now russia is the first priority. We aren't gonna see Shell fall or become angels anytime soon, so right now, I'd say lift such a boycott", "You're acting like the past twenty years the us hasn't occupied the middle east for the oil, and shell was one of the companies that profited the most from those wars", 'Agreed 💯', 'Exactly, the choice has been clear for over a week it wasn’t some complicated grey area that took time to figure out which side was right and wrong.', 'Wish we had the same energy for oil in other destabilized regions… o well', 'Ok, so you stop buying from Shell. Who are you going to buy gas from instead? Exxon? After creating one of the largest and highest impact surface oil spills in history? BP? \n\nThey are all evil, all complicit. There is no such thing as an upstanding oil company you can buy from with a clear conscience.', "Yep, doors shut for me. Playing both sides while civilians die wholesale is absolutely not okay. Im not saying things can't very forgiven, but this is like being sorry because you got caught. Do better.", 'Ironically the Shell near me that I had used recently is 30 cents more expensive than two of the gas stations a block further away. Easy decision.', "Me too.  In our village we have the local state oil station and Shell (I'm in Norway). I usually used the local state oil station for my car, but now I will make damn sure to not use Shell there or anywhere at all.", 'Dish soap seems to work well on our oil spills. Maybe it works on the blood on innocents too.', 'did u hydrogen peroxide?', 'Classic reference', 'Do you have shares in BHP?', 'https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ILPq3IO6tus', 'Capitalist Corporation, go fuck yourself.', "It's the consumer who has the power to make BigCorp change their ways. They won't do it by themselves if there's a penny to be had at the bottom of the barrel of shit", 'If you like free and unencumbered by morals, check out fresh  graves in your area. One of the corpses probably has shoes your size.', "It's actually really unprecedented that we're seeing companies do this thing at all. \n\nIn history it's always been be ruthless as hell to get those good ass deals, like this, as business is business. However, now we're seeing companies actually turn down easy dollars for morals and it's damn interesting.", 'I am still mad. But people thinking that they thought they would get away with it are delusional. \n\nBusiness at that scale, cost-benefit analysis is a huge huge thing. They knew full well the outrage it would cause, and did it anyway, because their cost-benefit analysis told them the money they would make would outweigh the losses from public outrage.', 'The US west coast ports dock workers were refusing to offload any Russian cargo, gas or otherwise.', 'It does matter. It adds huge risk to future purchases.', 'Someone at Shell should have realized that this would be a shitstorm and issued a statement ahead of the purchase.\n\nIf I understand correctly the oil was already more or less physically delivered. I wonder what would have happened if they had simply refused to take delivery? I mean, where would the loads of oil have gone? Can Russia even access and use the funds from this transaction? \n\n\nI\'m not trying to defend anyone here, it\'s just difficult to imagine they didn\'t see this backlash coming. Makes me think it\'s a bit more complicated than "Shell buys cheap blood oil because greedy."', 'Same here in NYC', 'Don’t put their fuel in your car?', 'Good.\n\nBut I\'ll wait until they **actually donate** those profits instead of just "putting it into a fund that will go towards humanitarian aid to Ukraine", because so long as that money is in their dedicated fund, the Ukrainians can\'t exactly make use of it, now can they?', 'Profits? They should donate whatever the resale value is. If the profit margin is 10%, then they will only donate 10% of whatever amount of money they gave the Russians...', "Sorry for not making myself clear. I'm not saying I will drive past them if I need fuel. I just saying I'm not going specifically to them for regular refil, just nearest station and it's not Shell.", 'Why ought something be “effective” to be done? I don’t understand that part of your argument.', "the fundamental shittyness wasn't corrected. Ending oil purchases from russia is not their choice- Its a sanction imposed upon them. They're acting as if isn't. Even worse shittiness, fuck shell.", 'Better fuel quality/consumption.', 'Made a mint off the death and suffering of others a little "sowwy" is bullshit.', 'Note that businesses only stopped doing business with russia when the ruble crashed. I agree with you. None of them would have stopped had business stayed normal.  They saw that it was both unprofitable t ocontinue and that they could win cheap goodboy points by making empty twitter statements.', '*lose', 'So you don’t use oil?', "Yeah lol, it's not like this is their first morally dubious choice.", 'https://twitter.com/larryvc/status/1496163275654205442?s=20&t=yTN_XgYL43bshsn7Ljrpfg', 'That was my exact point.', 'Yeah now you have a oil tanker that is essentially out of action and just functioning as storage until the embargo ends. That is not a situation you want as a business.', "I might be wrong, but downstream oil services will hardly hurt shell's bottom line. Its hard to boycott them simply because they are making bank on the upstream services such as oil and gas production and the oil may also be resold to other companies for consumers like us.", 'Also alot of companies leas cars with free cost of shell gas', 'They should give the profits from that particular purchase back to Ukraine.', 'Their stock is up almost 4% today. Fuck them.', 'Oh fuck *off*.', "Hardly any. Drive electric car, house is using rock heat and green electricity from hydro.\n\nThe little oil I use comes from buying stuff, transports not under my control and the occasional flight. And I don't mind if that gets more expensive.", 'You can live wihtouth using oil. You are not a car dude', ">  At most, it may make a franchisee consider changing to another brand and stop giving Shell's franchise money.\n\nWhich hurts their brand. Which in the end is the root of Shell's value.", 'They’ll still lose money if they are selling it at a discounted rate to other companies. Plus, it’s the principal of it all that matters', 'This', 'In fairness they did announce just after the purchase that they would direct any profits from Russian sources to Ukrainian relief efforts.', '🤣', 'You drive that ev on asphalt. You use electronics, plastics, clothing, etc….. list goes on and on. You shouldn’t talk the talk unless you walk the walk. First step is putting down the phone that’s made from oil byproducts', 'Oh I forgot oil is only used for cars. Sounds about right', "Any profits or an undefined portion of those profits? There's a big difference.", 'Ok that’s something.', 'Better to do something than nothing. Oil kills this planet.', "No one's buying your holier-than-thou bs, get off that poor horse -- it's clearly being beaten to death", 'Without oil you’d be shitting in the creek', 'Holier-than -thou bs? 🤣 What do you drive?', "Yeah it's a heavy drug that mankind is on. Hopefully we can get rid of using it soon and transfer to a more sustainable and modern future. If not we are doomed.", 'It’s not going away', "Yes it will. You'll see in the coming years what will happen.", 'Ok 😉', '"The company said the supply chain change could take weeks to complete..."\n\nI\'ll believe it when I see it.', 'Anyone else getting some serious [South Park vibes](https://youtu.be/15HTd4Um1m4) from that statement?', 'An apology? They should start with apologizing for lying about climate research', 'I was talking a ride with my uncle to my home town.       \nHe was low on fuel and we were moving next to Shell fuel station and he said "I won\'t buy from those shithead ever again".        \n\nKind of proud of him, but don\'t tell him please.', '[Dmytro Kuleba’s Tweet](https://mobile.twitter.com/DmytroKuleba/status/1500090023877746692)', 'Will stop buying shell gas now', "Shell allocates profits on Russian oil for aid to Ukraine sources are plenty here one: [https://www.telegraaf.nl/financieel/636738056/shell-bestemt-winst-op-russische-olie-voor-hulp-aan-oekraine](https://www.telegraaf.nl/financieel/636738056/shell-bestemt-winst-op-russische-olie-voor-hulp-aan-oekraine)\n\nThey also explain many countries can not go keep on going without that oil, and everything they can do otherwise they have done. I do not say this as a defense, it's what i found on it.", 'Amazing answer from the Foreign Minister. Even their politicians are not afraid of speaking their mind... we would need some where I live...', 'Not that they would care if it did. Oil has ALWAYS had blood attached to it. The two are intrinsically linked and the oil companies are very well aware of that fact. They just done care. For them and sadly many others on the planet Earth its money > literally everything else.', 'Just dont buy from shell\n\nHappened before (1995 brendspar conflict with greenpeace) that did work out', 'Lets start finding Shell stations and stuff and letting peopple know whats going on. \n\nReddit army must engage Shell', 'Europe buys russian oil/gas as well, can‘t do much about it this moment:(', "I would gladly pay more knowing Russia wasn't getting a cent.", 'Isn’t this company linked to some ungodly brutal repressive regimes around the world. Maybe now is the time to make amends?', 'Serving Russia puts your employees and facilities at risk. FYI', 'The problem is any gas station could sell Russian originated crude and we wouldn’t know it.  There are many sources throughout the sales chain that can obfuscate the origin.  I think every retail gas station should be forced by law to reveal the originating country where the crude was extracted.', 'I’m officially not buying shell gas! I will gladly pay more to see Ukraine free.', 'I will never buy shell gasoline again.', 'Ah capitalism. Where pigs choose money over morality.', '4.00 here and willing to pay more 🖕', 'I don’t care about the price. It’s far less than what the Ukrainians are paying. Boycott Shell. Block Russian oil.', 'How does one get a refund on gas?', 'It’s not entirely shell’s fault, the market is reliant on Russian oil at the moment. If they don’t, price will skyrocket. Oil is very elastic (sensitive to supply and demand)', 'they are buying what they absolutely must ,just to fill existing already placed orders, the cut off is happening. when you hold your breath do you die of suffocation immediately?', 'It smells like not giving a fuck about ukraine and living our own lives.', 'It smelled the same as with Iraqi blood. I didn’t hear any complaints.', 'Ah yes, “difficult” decision.', 'The US is still buying oil from Russia. Make sense of that.', 'Maybe Receiving gas they purchased a long time ago from a previous deal with Russian oil. Takes sometime even months to receive that oil logistically.  Im surprised if true they would even deliver it .  If this is true then the penalty for violating sanctions is very bad. Not to mention the bad publicity.  It is more like some russian troll trying to get us to boycot shell.', 'No, it smells like gas.', "The really fun thing is, companies aren't just buying russian oil lol.", 'You guys know US and NATO continue to buy $1 billion PER DAY of Russian oil, right?', 'Americans make the difficult decision to boycott the fuck out of shell….', 'FuckShell FuckPutin', 'Thank you for the source. Reading the tweet, I discover that it was a kind of sneaking action :"*I am told that Shell discretely bought some Russian oil yesterday*". Corporate "value"...', 'The profits are going to Ukraine', 'Pennzoil, Quaker State and Rotella as well in the states.', "I'll say as one of Ukrainian official said - you are afraid to pay extra 50 cents per gallon at the pump, while people in Ukraine are paying with their lives.", 'Russia sells the oil and receives the first cut of "profits", funds their war effort. \n\nShell receives the second cut of "profits". Buying the oil effectively allows Russia to obtain their first cut of the "profits" completing the sales cycle for Russia.\n\nCountries that buy the oil from Shell enable Shell to obtain a cut of the profits and complete the cycle for Shell, etc., etc., and on it goes till the oil is used.\n\nWhether they donate "profits" or not, the act of buying and selling are the only actions that allow Russia to complete the process of monetizing oil "profits" and thereby fund their war effort.\n\nThe only action that effects the profits that fund the Russian war effort is to not buy and sell Russian oil. \n\nSimple. \n\nBuy it from somewhere else if you really need it.\n\nOtherwise, your a part of the equation that equals death in Ukraine.', 'Worth stating, thanks! As tough as that reality is.', 'I was making this post more so for the Ukrainian FM’s response lol', "Don't defend shell", "They absolutely could stop business in Russia.  They just don't want to upset shareholders.", 'Truest comment on here so far. Ever heard of blood diamonds? Blood is attached to nearly everything we have.. iPhones, oil, avocados, paper, raw materials etc. it’s sad but true this is reality unfortunately 😕', 'We should make a sticker that says “Not fuel-Ukrainian blood in these pumps”', "I'm interested, too!", 'maybe activist stickers to put on shell pumps that say "Shell supports buying russian oil". Hard to not see that when you are sitting there staring at the numbers ticking away while your car fills up.', 'Holy shit that sounds like a dream. The 87 by my house is 5.49🥲thank god I have a Prius but not the electric one 😔', 'Until the war spreads and you’re directly effected by it?', 'Stop buying there oil and shut Russia down', 'Europe supplies oil and gas from Russia. It is a sad truth for Europeans that our countries will shutdown if we sanction Russian oil and gas.', 'The proceeds go to Russia', 'Yeah, probably to save face after getting a shit ton of criticism.', 'Profits are calculated after Shell pays themselves all expensese, salary, and bonuses.', 'Paying 1 more usd right now and ready to pay another. No Russian purchases period.', 'its 5.50 here and im willing to pay more', 'It’s closer to 50 cents the litre nowadays', 'EXACTLY THIS.', "You fail to look at the bigger picture. Half of Europe's Oil and Gas comes from Russia. The prices aren't just going up 50cents.  Cost of living is soaring more so than the US.  Energybills have doubled for some and will continue to increase. While businesses have to inflate their costs because energy bills are so expensive. Food is going up. Rent is going up. Transport is going up. The sad truth is we're too dependant on foes to supply us. The west should have kept Nuclear power stations running but pragmatic do-gooders want windfarms where it isn't windy connected to huge Battery farms that are incredibly toxic, Solar power where the sun doesn't shine and hydro electric where there is barely any water. Pragmatic people have said the Net Zero policy of the EU is too much too soon and it is. Now we're having to pay Russia to keep energy running or freeze/starve to death", "I don't give a shit honestly. Nobody cared when people in Libya paid with their lives, or the Iraqis and many others. In fact France made a deal with the Libyan terrorists to get 30% of their export oil in exchange for aerial support.", 'Extra $0.50?? It’s already $1.50 more', "I am absolutely not defending Shell, but just to set the record straight, at $28-29 /bl or whatever they paid, the seller is making no 'profit'; the cost of oil extraction is higher than that in Russia, around $35 from memory. What they are getting is an empty tanker to go get more Ural Crude, and some money to offset a total loss. In any case, it _is_ money going in to Russia and at least some of that will find its way the Putler's regime and funding his war. \n\nIt's still poor form that sanctions are not being observed by all countries and companies, with some actively exploiting the situation.", "Oh right, he might be a little too busy though, don't expect too much.", 'Savage response!', "So i keep getting messages as if i took a side. Which i understand, i didn't formulate properly. I should have said: Shell claims: .... instead of Shell explains: ....", 'Start making them and sell them and donate the profits to the Ukrainian war effort', 'Yeah which is why this is such a precarious situation bc even in the US we have Russian oil. We’re trying to be careful bc we’ve seen this movie before; we had a Cold War with Russia for 30yrs. The US is in a staring competition with Russia and they’re determined to not blink first. It’s unfortunate because of the amount of globalization, the world is a sticky web.', 'Same, and no I don’t have an electric car.', "In Europe we're paying 10 dollars per gallon..", 'White privilege', 'How about we just go back to doing what we were doing before shit diaper Biden? Energy independence for the US is the only option.', 'So is that makes ok for Ukranians to be killed?', 'You don’t care that innocent people are being slaughtered, disgusting.', "Well, $28.5 was a discount! Not the price of a barrel. Don't be naive. No one would ever sell you at a loss.\n\n[Shell Promises Profits From Trading Russian Oil to Charity](https://www.wsj.com/livecoverage/russia-ukraine-latest-news-2022-03-04/card/shell-promises-profits-from-trading-russian-oil-to-charity-GiRNyOKSqlxmH7YvJGAn)", 'You missed my point', "yeah, just saw a videos of another  civilian got bombed and passed while medics did their best to save him, walked away in tears as did his father. I'd better take a break, my bad.", 'YES I LOVE THAT', "Ummm what does that have to do with anything? I am white but that doesn't really have bearing on me being willing to pay high gas prices. My family comes from Prussia and Germany, I feel I should be willing to deal with gas prices if it helps cripple warmongers attacking people fairly close to my family's roots. Also I drive an extremely fuel efficient car sooo it doesn't hurt my wallet too bad. FYI its a Toyota corolla with manual windows so not exactly rich people car", 'The price increase is closer to 50 cent the litre as opposed to 50 cents per gallon was what I meant', "Yes, I don't give a shit about people who elected a comedian. I guess they're not laughing now, are they? Perhaps a football player would do better, who knows... fuck the politics, let populists run the country.", 'Thanks for clearing that up. $28.50 sounded like a "fire sale" price, and I thought at the time it was just to get the ship unloaded and out of port. \n\nAnd people do sell commodities at a loss (hence the reason we have a futures exchange). Sometimes the attributed loss is what is at stake (loss on cargo could be less than loss of carriage/shipping facility)\n\nIn Australia when there is a train derailment on the iron ore lines they just bulldoze it off the track and leave it there. Opening the rail for more trains is far more important than the loss of the cargo and carriages.', ">\tDon’t be naive. No one would ever sell you at a loss.\n\nWhile the rest of your post might be correct, that sentence is not. At the start of covid, oil was going away for negative prices, because they were running out of storage. Companies literally gave you money if you took their oil. You can't just close the tap on all the oil wells and stop producing oil.\n\nIf everyone stops buying oil from Russia they won't have anywhere to put it and will pretty much have to give it away for free.", "Ok, i'm sorry, i think i still miss your point then.", 'Lmk what you come up with', "It's scientifically proven that higher gas prices effect POC the most, especially women. You're clearly a racist and sexist who doesn't care because you can still get by.", "Sorry to have hurt your feelings. I didn't know you were a big fan of Mr. Shit pants Biden. Or are you a fan of being reliant on foreign terrorist oil from Iran and Russia?", 'So even people “voted wrong” in your opinion so they deserve to die?\n\nYou have some significant psychiatric issues if you think that and need to get your head checked.', "What does prevent the producer to stop the pump ? OPEC quite often increase/decrease oil production and I haven't heard about any technical problem that prevents them to do it.", 'I was posting it to highlight the Ukrainian FM’s response', 'Not entirely sure you understand what a racist is. "prejudiced against or antagonistic toward a person or people on the basis of their membership in a particular racial or ethnic group, typically one that is a minority or marginalized." Nobody here is racist. Also that is just not right, it affects the less affluent specifically not just people of color and women, show me a source and ill say I\'m wrong, I am willing to admit my mistakes. Also I\'m all for government assistance of the less affluent with gas. Don\'t just go around screaming racism. Life isnt black and white', 'Shut the fuck up you loser', "Bruh I'm living paycheck to paycheck and barely get by, but people are literally being killed by the country we are buying oil from. You should turn your anger to capitalist pigs and the government that decided buying oil from a hostile country was a good idea.", 'it affects poor people more, that they are poor is a different reason.  Your not being racist if you don’t mindpaying a bit more for gas. people like you are creating hate and it’s exactly what Russia is using to justify there actions. \n\nYou’re finger pointing peace of shit.  Start using a mirror.', 'This is why you’re going to lose the midterms', "Oh boi, apart from being military experts, there are some psycho experts as well. Yes, people deserve the fate they voted for, it's that simple. Idk if it's right or wrong, but it's their choice.", 'Thanks for the explanation.', "The sad part is sarcasm isn't even obvious because the left really is this dumb. I just find it amusing that the side that proclaims everything is racist and hurts minorities (aka poor people according to them) also think higher gas prices is actually a good thing.", "How's that $9 a gallon gas treating you?", 'Just another out of touch liberal I see.', "Projecting a bit I see? You don't know me hun.", 'Boycott Shell. A week in the hot seat should wake up their CEO.', 'Super difficult of them to buy cheap oil and sell it for a premium and make massive profit. So hard, this brave choice of theirs. Boycott Shell', '“We wanted to appear that we care but not to the point that it affects our profits.”', 'No more Shell gas stations for me.', "She'll Oil Co. Go fuck yourself.", 'Fuck you, Shell.', 'Well at least their gas is cheaper to defend the decision. \n\n::Checks prices::  \n\nOh.', 'It’s almost as if we fostered a culture where advantageous profiteering at any cost is not only acceptable, it is encouraged.', 'The only difficult thing is ethics and morals.  Something no oil company has', '"it was really really difficult, but in the end it was so tempting. We had to do it."', 'I don’t see it at the gas pump so this looks like greed', 'Boycott shell', '$$$', '“The firm also said that it will try to choose alternatives to Russian oil ‘wherever possible’, and that profits from Russian oil will go to a dedicated fund aimed at helping people in Ukraine.”\n\nThat’s some next-level bs semantics.', 'Tl;Dr $$$$$$$$$', 'Buy Russian oil on discount, but still sell oil at high price lol. FUCK OFF SHELL', 'I think the world is overdue for a reminder of all the horrendous shit Shell has done in the past.\n\nhttps://www.amnesty.org.uk/shell-criminal-enterprise', "Soo difficult... sure and next they'll tell us they have morals or human decency", 'Difficult my ass.', 'It $$ was $$ a $$ very $$ difficult $$ decision $$ to $$ make', '"Well, see, the thing is, we *wanted* it.  So..."', "Went to the gas station today... didn't pick shell. \n\nWent to get soda today... didn't pick Pepsi and Coke.", 'Bites lower lip..OK', 'WE HAVE TO CUT RUSSIAN GAS AND OIL', 'Boycott Shell and other shitty companies buying from Russia. Got it 👌🏻', 'I get it. Allow me to defend my easy decision to tell you to fuck off and let you know I will walk to the next gas station, no matter how far, before I pull in to a shell station again.', "Classic prisoner's dilemma. Everyone agree to not do the thing, and then someone does the thing because it's good for them alone.", 'Everyone out there making super easy decisions to sacrifice finances. Poor Shell really struggling with it', 'I will be boycotting shell', 'Tmobile and Shell working together, Shells gotta recooperate those losses from Tmobile Tuesdays', "It's actually good that even without sanctions Russia is having trouble selling oil.\n\nI was thinking that rather than restricting purchase of Russian oil and gas there should be a high tax placed on it.  That tax money could then be sent to Ukraine.  That will effectively lower the price Russia can get for its oil because buyers will look elsewhere first, but would still help maintain supplies and help Ukraine.", 'In Canada, please call Shell at 1 800 661 1600  to voice your concern.', 'Bunch of shellouts.', 'Shell: profits? Ok we buy!', 'Sanctions are working on Russia, boycotts will work on corporations', 'I already boycott shell just because they charge fuck you pricing for everything.', 'US should remove all subsidies for any oil companies that increase profit from raised prices during the war.    \n      \nNo tax payer money should go to war profiteers.', 'Well on the other hand they say they wanted to make sure the European supply is secured and that they will try to get the oil somewhere else if it’s possible.\n\nCan’t judge if that’s the truth but I kind of doubt anyone here can know for sure if it’s only a greedy move either. It just fits the narrative right now. But we shouldn’t go over doing dumb decisions because anything that isn’t anti Russia is condemned by the people that might not even read more than the headline.', "I'm with you.", 'Welcome to humanity', 'It was really difficult, but profits > humanitarian actions.', 'these are not analogous, however. oil corporations have more capital than russia, and are not being subject to international sanctions.', 'This! I haven’t been to a Shell station for decades because they are more expensive than just about everyone else, except maybe Sunoco, who hasn’t seen my business but may once or twice in my lifetime.', 'True, but it could be a long term punishment of Russia too--providing funds to rebuild Ukraine.', "You're right that they're definitely not going to be the same, but the bad PR was enough to make Shell backpedal a bit which indicates they're trying to avoid a full on boycott.", 'The Shell on my way to work was 50 cents more than the Sunoco down the street today for what it’s worth.', 'mere consumer-end boycotts won’t affect Shell.', 'In my area, the Shells trend a bit lower than other brands.', 'Shell has been involved in killing people and propping up dictators before.\n\nhttps://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2017/11/investigate-shell-for-complicity-in-murder-rape-and-torture/', 'They\'re giving money to Putin to help finance his war.  I will never buy Shell gasoline or any of their products ever again.  I told them directly as well.  Shell can "Russian warship, go fuck yourself."', 'Fuck Shell.\n\nAlso boycott all SOPUS corporation products. That’s Shell Oil Products United States. Brands include Penzoil, Rotella, Gumout, etc.\n\nPlenty of equally good products are available for other companies.\n\n I rarely bought from them. Now I won’t ever.', 'A Shell gas station few blocks away from my house closed down. It probably isn’t linked to them purchasing Russian oil or not, but it still means that this company isn’t doing great compared to its competitors (Wawa and Sam’s Club being the cheapest in my area). It wouldn’t surprise me if they just change their name like Facebook did to try and hide their apparent failure. Another company unwilling to change and adapt.', 'Sadly enough we will stil need some temporary supplys before we can do without russian oil. And Lets face it, its not that russian companys made alot of money on this deal. 29 a barrel was it?', 'Boycott shell, I guess.', "I they wouldn't buy it, oil will just become more expensive for us all.", 'Demand for fuel is outstripping supply right now. Someone is going to buy that Russian fuel unfortunately.', "Where is the money going to go for military supplies if no one will trade with them? We buy oil, they get money... then they trade the money with arms? I don't believe China is signing up for that given how globally popular the sanctions are. Would keep China thinking twice about changing the status of Taiwan.", '>Lets face it, its not that russian companys made alot of money on this deal. 29 a barrel was it?\n\nYes, Shell is war profiteering.  Taking advantage of the low demand for Russian oil to make huge profits on it.', 'Governments around the world are going to need to figure out how to ration oil/gas in order to match supply without Russia. Oil prices skyrocketting will do some of that for us.', 'And we should boycott whoever that is', "They're buying at 29  and selling 120 fair market value on the world stage.\n\nThe Hague should investigate, shell is a Dutch company for crying out loud.", 'Yeah i very much agree, but this wil take a few years.\n\nApperantly the harsh truth is not populair.', "By not buying Russian oil, you're just giving China cheap oil and we pay more for a different flag on the barrel. Russia benefits from the higher sell prices, China benefits from cheaper than prevailing price Oil. The **only** people who suffer are countries not buying Russian oil.\n\nSo when you're literally helping who you're trying to sanction, what's more important to you, the warm feelings you get not buying Russian oil, or the fact you're actually doing the reverse in terms of cutting off their revenue?", 'Not supporting an invading army.', "Warm feelings it is.\n\nYou're supporting them either way.", 'Warm like the current side of the pillow.', '“We’re sorry, we’re so sorry… we’re sorry”', '"We\'re not really sorry, we just realised the backlash hurts our bottom line."', "They're sorry AFTER making a fortune on it?\n\nGo fuck yourself shell", 'Shell Sowwy', 'Truth: Shell totally not sorry, pledges to not get caught next time.', 'Sorrrrrrryyyyyyyy', 'Their stock is full to the brim after the discount shopping. Lol.', "We're going to stop buying Russian oil...startiiiiiiiiiiiiiinnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnn...\n\n....got it?\n\nOkay, starting now.", 'Fuck Shell', 'Bit late now that they nabbed a bargain. Why not donate 28$ per barrel to Ukraine i.e. the amount they saved at these cut prices?', 'So when are we going to start getting these very wealthy CEOs making a fortune off people, drag them out to the middle of the streets and let them eat cake?', "Shell don't give a fuck! Record billions in profit for planetary poisoning and hundreds of millions in tax breaks... and we all still need their shit! Laughing all the fuckin way to the offshore bank!!", 'Right, and how long have they been buying oil from Saudi Arabia?', "It's okay, everybody. They apologized!", 'Fuck Shell.', "*... Shell sneaks into the garage when you're not looking and takes a quick hit of Russian gas.*", 'A very crude apology…', 'Too freaking late', 'sooo soorrryy. it won’t happen aaggaaiinn', '….over a 96 month period…. /s', '"This time we mean it!"', 'Actions speak louder than UTTER BULLSHIT', 'They are lying', '"we\'re sorry... You found out."', 'Shell is like being caught cheating by the spouse.  Promising not to do it again (for now).', 'The saddest part of all of this is that oil companies - all of them - have committed horrific crimes (hiring mercenary groups to slaughter indigenous people, bribery, etc) in addition to all of the planet poisoning. They will ALL continue to do it. And there is no way we can participate in the modern world without being guilty as consumers.', 'apology not accepted\n\nnever buying gas from shell again 🙃', '"It was a really good deal, and we were really hoping you just wouldnt notice"', 'sorry in this case translates to "we\'ve bought enough to make a trillion dollars this month, we\'re good guys. we\'ll stop now"', "So they'll donate the proceeds of existing purchase to Ukraine? If not, their apology doesn't mean shit.", "Too little to late. They profited from this already. I'll never stop at one of their stations again.", 'they knew they can get away with doing it that one time. whats one instance of public backlash versus a couple million gallons of dirt cheap oil? its a good trade i suppose. people still need gas after all', 'Too little too late bisss! Bye!', 'We’re sorry. Now here’s an extra ten cents a gallon at the pump.', 'Are they sorry about the execution of the Ogoni Nine.', '‘We’re real sorry, hope this price gouging makes up for it’', "They're sorry they got caught. That's all.", 'Shell sorry *that everyone else is missing out on these great deals* and pledges to *not* stop buying Russian oil.', "We won't make another billion dollar deal after the first one.", "Wait wait, just one more hit then I'm done... After this one... Starting tomorrow..", 'Let’s be honest. Shell isn’t “sorry” they just don’t want bad publicity. They knew what they were doing and didn’t care until people outcried.', 'So shellfish of them', 'We’re sorry……\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n….we got caught.', "For your information. Shell isn't sorry. Because Shell isn't anything.   \nNeither is Coke, or McDonalds.  \n\n\nThey're conglomerates of thousands of executives and analysts who put 2 and 2 together, and count if that makes them enough money to grow. They don't have a single entity needed to feel this way or that. Each press release they make is crafted and workshopped by a team.   \n\n\nBecause they're such huge behemoths, it takes them time to put their finger in the wind and see which way it's blowing. At this moment, they calculated the risks on what would happen with their business on the long run, and knew it would've hurt them more.", 'In 30 days they will sneak back. Fuck that company. With what they have done in Africa they should all be thrown in perma-prison.', 'How abouts a reduction in pump prices... nope', 'Vote with your feet guys', "Sorry for what? No one cared until they realized they could get their social justice fix online by talking shit about McDonald's, Coke, Pepsi, Shell, etc. There's no reason to be sorry, just pull out if you think that's the right thing to do.", "I do forgive them. If you can't forgive people for improving they have no need to improve their moral values. So yeah, it was a mistake. We got angry. Now it's time to praise them for doing this.", 'My bad', 'Screwed the pooch!', 'why article title bad gramma? normal? sorry second languege.', 'So does the CFO of Shell now get extradited for dealing with sanctioned countries as did Huawei?\nEdit: My bad, misunderstood current sanctions.', 'This a good time to advertise my two week crash course: *Reading The Room - How To, Why Should You?*', 'What do you think happened to cause Shell to change like this?\n\nIn the history of everything ever, when has big oil ever backed away from unfathomable profits?', 'They’ll probably start buying them again next week', 'Pledges? Ok… when?', 'Too late. I have already started avoiding Shell at the pump.', 'They’re sorry that they got caught', 'Shell.....we are sorry you caught us.....again, we promise that the next time you catch us we will be sorry.  But man look at our profits!!!', 'Boycott can end when they donate that oil to Ukraine', 'But this time we mean it.....', 'Greedy fucks.', 'This reminds me of the cable company on South Park', 'Wonder if it has anything to do with this:\n\n> Biden to Ban Russian Oil Imports', 'They already bought enough to make sure they can get through the sanctions.', 'Just in time for the US to not even allow them to do so anyway!', "I used to be proud that Shell was a Dutch company. Now I'm throughly ashamed. Those scumbags are buying oil cheaply while raising prices just as everyone. And all the while advertising with green initiatives and working towards a better world. It's sad...", 'Now they will charge the US $7 a gallon to make up for any losses for their brave stance.', 'Shell was buying discounted oil and still raising prices... greedy fucks', 'Fuck shell', 'Too fucking late', 'After Biden and UK banning Russian Oil already? Nah. Funding another gas station always.', 'Too late gready arsholes', 'Does this mean that they will be lowering the price of gas because they bought so much when the rest of the oil companies refused to help out Putin?', 'Since when can one rely on the word of an oil company? Can we just move beyond oil as our main fuel and just be done with it already?', 'Sorry they got caught and got backlash.', 'Fuck. You', "Pledging doesn't mean shit.  Lets see it happen.", 'Sorry? Sorry how?\n\nSorry that they got caught.', '"Just a few more barrels, you know, for old times sake.."', 'About time', 'Omg these headlines are so dumb. Literally looks like a 5 year old wrote it', "somebody must've made some awesome threats!", 'SORRY only AFTER they mass profited. Fuck them', "the mouse can't resist the cheese", '"We bought low and sold high sorry guys you got us"', 'Sooooorrryyyy', 'https://youtu.be/15HTd4Um1m4?t=12', '"that you found out"', "Oh yes indeed we're very sorry... *counts billions made*", 'This is probably why BP was the first to pull out.\n\nLast time they did not know when to pull out! (of our oceans)', 'But not sorry we’re going to charge you 5$ a gallon.', 'They’re so sorry? Well prove it and drop the price of gas. Then I’ll believe you.', 'https://youtu.be/KUDjRZ30SNo', 'Exactly what I thought of.', "So we're going to tell people we've stopped buying from the Russians but in all actuality, we haven't stopped.", 'I’m probably just cynical but I feel this way about pretty much every company. If they do a good thing it either dodges a bullet or they did the math and the good publicity will likely benefit them monetarily. \n\nThey have no incentive to be generous or philanthropic without positive impact to the companies ability to generate wealth. Otherwise, investors would be pissed.', "This is how it's going to be with any publicly traded company.  Unfortunately, we have designed our laws in the United States to force it to be this way eventually.  An IPO is putting an expiration date on the soul of a company.\n\nThis is just how it is currently and should be expected unless we change our laws.  For now, I'd say this is working as intended within the current system rules.  At least they responded to the backlash.", 'go fuck yourshellf \\*', 'Lol yeah. Are they planning on returning what they purchased? No? Well, I guess they’re not all that sorry.\n\n(I didn’t read the article. Maybe they are but I can’t be fucked to care about shitty companies doing shitty things enough to read their shitty statements)', 'They donated all of the money to Ukraine.', 'Apparently they still have some ongoing contracts, but after that--- no more... Tentatively..', 'They did that already: https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/shell-put-profits-russian-oil-trade-into-ukraine-aid-fund-2022-03-05/', "Exactly. Now that they've gotten exactly what they wanted, cheap oil sold to consumers at high prices, now it's time to save face. Gtfo here", 'No war, but class war', 'While I agree CEOs and many management are overpaid, I think you all need to understand that there is more nuance.\n\nA corporation like Shell is not a single CEO calling the shots. A CEO is often an employee as well. Large business decisions like this are discussed with Board of Directors that represent the interest of shareholders. Some directors are genuinely ESG focused and some are absolutely not.  However, regardless of their personal morals, they are legally obligated to act in the interest of their shareholders who have largely invested hard-earned dollars for a profit.\n\nIf the CEO starts making rash decisions based on personal moral code at the expense of profits, he or she can easily be fired.\n\nSimilarly, if the Board does the same, activist investors can come in and replace them. This is how activist funds like Elliott and Icahn work. \n\nIt’s not as simple as change the CEO. It’s just way more complicated than that. You cannot expect corporations that are by definition for-profit to act on a purely moral basis without regard for financial gain.', 'I prefer setting them on fire on live television. Messages need to be sent.', 'Look up what they do and have done in NIGERIA. Fuck Shell with a pointy stick.', 'It’s too late to apologize. 😂', 'I mean, whilst I agree that Shell is a morally reprehensible company and I greatly look forward to their demise, it is equally as ridiculous to complain that they have now changed direction.\n\nThey are closing down all operations in Russia, no longer buying oil, and shutting down their service stations there. As absolutely fucking awful as their previous choices were, ***this is a good decision***.', 'First time round they actually did.  As soon as war started Shell came out and said they were getting rid of all their (considerable) assets in Russia. \n\nSecond time was when the full tanker load came up for sale…', 'For 96 months.', 'They are owned by equityholders legally.\n\nManagement-wise, not knowing the direction of the wind is a sign of incompetence and strategic blindness.\n\nEasiest short of my life.', 'Always do, always will.\n\nI do hope anyone seeing what is happening now understand they can have a very real, and direct effect.\n\nDrive more economically, use less fuel, gas etc. Less heating, less hot water, everything. We can all collectively make real changes.', 'This is an international mega corporation not a person. They are led by a board full of people who have dedicated their entire lives to making the least ethical choices possible. They are irredeemably corrupt and evil.\n\nGlad they did the absolute bare minimum after intense global pressure. They must have really turned over a new leaf /s.\n\nIt was not a mistake. It was a conscious decision by Shell’s management to prioritize profits over absolutely everything else, which is consistent with everything they’ve ever done.\n\nFuck Shell. They harm all of us just by existing.', 'The White House is looking at banning imports. They want the PR of doing it willingly.', 'Sowwy', 'Was coming to say this.', 'Oh shell no.', "That's super cheap, here in Australia we are paying the equivalent of $8 per gallon ($2 per litre). Consider not driving a gigantic truck if you're worried about petrol prices.", "Hi Dubbleedge. It looks like your comment to /r/worldnews was removed because you've been using a link shortener. Due to issues with spam and malware we do not allow shortened links on this subreddit.\n\n*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/worldnews) if you have any questions or concerns.*", 'You’re not wrong but you also have to understand corporations are just nuanced like that. I feel like too many people think a corporation is a chairman/CEO calling all the shots. It’s not true. A CEO is also an employee and beholden to a Board of Directors representing shareholders who at the end of the day, invested in the business for profit. \n\nSome directors genuinely care about ESG while others are profit driven. It’s not a morals-driven hive mind. Management members are legally required to do what is best for their shareholders, regardless of their personal morals.\n\nIt baffles me how anyone expects companies to be morally driven in any society without regard for profit...that’s what charities and non-profits are for.', "They said that they'd put the profit into a fund to send to Ukraine.|  \n\n\nWhether they'll actually do that is a different story though.", 'Well that’s… pretty noble of them honestly', 'They did donate the profits to Ukraine...', 'It\'s not a class war, it\'s a "market correction".', 'Could just stop subsidising their industry by a million USD every minute (globally).', 'That\'s exactly the point I am making!\n\nThey never should have bought that oil from Russia and now this "change in direction" is purely to offset any possible backlash', 'scene cut "banjo playing"', 'He’s referencing the South Park episode talking about the BP oil spill', 'You say that but in Sweden were paying a bit more than 13 AUD per gallon😂 26 SEK per liter diesel and HVO 31 SEK', 'Right, the only way that works is if the publics moral outrage is threatening enough that the decision makers feel like it’s in their best interest to act.\n\nExpecting them to do the moral thing without some kind of coercion is silly.', 'A company is people. If enough people sprout even fake morality above desire for more money the culture will change', "I'm sure they mean a percentage of the profit, capped at a specific value.", 'The profits the state-owned Russian company that sold the oil to Shell made goes into the Russian government budget so I’d chalk it up as trying to whitewash it. Shell not buying any Russian oil is still the better move.', 'Oh that makes this all better then. /s', 'Yeah I remember petrol being pretty expensive when I drove around Sweden a few years back, at the time it was about 20% more expensive than Australia but it seems to have gotten more expensive since then. There is a reason why you all drive little hybrids or fuel efficient hatches!', "Well, yes. But unfortunately, we live in a society lol. Humans are selfish by nature. It's why communism failed in the past. It sounds great on paper. Everyone working together for the collective benefit of the whole with equality. But the issue is you have greedy people that will find a way to game the system.\n\nUnfortunately, it is often these greedy people (think hedge fund, private equity investors, etc.) that fund so many of the developments that make modern society what it is. Humans as a whole are greedy, but that's also what's allowed innovation. That's the conundrum of humanity.", 'Agreed.', 'Yeah, 10 years ago i remember i paid 7-8 SEK per liter and now petrol is around 22 SEK, E85 around same price so its really going up these last few years. The war and the swedish politics to be at the forefront of climate change is not really great right now', 'Went up again today and sits now at 14.6 aud :D Luckly i got a job from home. I will come back with a report for tomorrow!', 'Fuck you Shell. Now that you bought a surplus at a low cost, and will still be price gouging.', 'We’re sorry\n\nhttps://imgflip.com/i/67vi7z', 'Quit pledging to stop buying oil and just stop buying it.  Bureaucrats…', '"We thought this would be profitable, but people started boycotting us and we lost money. We regret losing that money, and vow to make more money in the future."', 'Been driving and avoided shell on our road trip', "Sucks for them im still not buying Shell. \n\nThey only regret it because people stopped buying. They don't actually give a shit about the actual situation.\n\nThey fucked up, and it's not like there aren't other companies I can buy from", 'Sorry they got caught lying', "It looks like OP posted an AMP link. These should load faster, but AMP is controversial because of [concerns over privacy and the Open Web](https://www.reddit.com/r/AmputatorBot/comments/ehrq3z/why_did_i_build_amputatorbot).\n\nMaybe check out **the canonical page** instead: **[https://www.bbc.com/news/business-60661611](https://www.bbc.com/news/business-60661611)**\n\n*****\n\n ^(I'm a bot | )[^(Why & About)](https://www.reddit.com/r/AmputatorBot/comments/ehrq3z/why_did_i_build_amputatorbot)^( | )[^(Summon: u/AmputatorBot)](https://www.reddit.com/r/AmputatorBot/comments/cchly3/you_can_now_summon_amputatorbot/)", 'And about time, too.', 'Some boycotts are simpler than others. This one is real easy', 'https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oeYBqhdmDrc', '"Now we\'ve done the thing we knew we shouldn\'t we want to acknowledge how sorry we are for doing the thing we knew we shouldn\'t"', "Scout's honest ...", "Sorry, not sorry. They're still selling it at a premium, tho!", 'Sorry, Biden banned it', "I'm sorry boss.", 'Posted to the thread many times. Looks like someone is in damage control. Must have taken a hit since Friday. Boycotts do work sometimes.', "Clearly they've secured someone to arbratage Russian oil in some alternative country by now then.", 'How about you donate the money you made on the Russian oil to the Ukraine? Actions speak louder than empty apologies.', 'What effect will stopping buying Russian oil have on the Russian economy. I hope it’s devastating.', 'So surprise', 'I cannot upvote this enough. Exactly what came to my mind when I read the title.', 'But they are addicted and need to wean themselves off. /s', 'Now avoid them til the end of time', "They were always way more expensive. I've been avoiding them but now it's not solely out of my own cheapness.", 'Cold Turkey, and I don’t mean Asia Minor 😉', '“you’re sorry you got caught”', 'Zhell', 'After these next few hundred thousand gallons we promise we’ll stop', 'Never simply take them at their word.', "Just like they're sorry for covering up global warming? Shit... I don't even think the oil companies have apologized for that.", "I can't help but be reminded of that 'We're Sorry' scene from South Park whenever companies apologize.", 'Fuck shell. I’m still boycotting them until the war is over.', 'Such a fake apology. Everybody who worked in a corporations knows that its all about the ebidta and most of the executives would kick a puppy if it meant more profits. I can just imagine how they greedily jumped on the oil with a discounted price.', 'Yeah after the fact and defending it publicly. Maybe they bulk brought a ton.', "How about donating the last month's profits to Ukraine to show the world how sorry you really are?", '“We’re sorry we’re buying Russian fuel. To make it up to you, you’ll have the pleasure…. Nay, the privilege of paying the extra cost so our CEOs can make sure they get their bonuses this year and not a penny short.”', 'Sorry *after* the deal is completed, and not one moment sooner.', 'Sorry. \n\n*Sorry.*\n\nSorry. \n\n*We’re sorry!*', 'Then I will start using it again if true!', 'Well, at least they are owning up and apologizing.', 'South America probably fielding a few phone calls...', 'If your sorry donate all the profits. Lol as if', 'Aannnddd they are going to donate the profits made from this has to Ukraine, right?….right.', 'The US gets what iirc 1% of its oil from Russia..so who is buying Russian oil that we buy from. Cause I don’t see why prices is rocketing so hard otherwise.', 'https://youtu.be/15HTd4Um1m4', '1000%\n\nIt’s incredibly easy to imagine a conference call last week where they talked about the entire Ukraine situation as an inconvenience to their supply chain.', "Their word is worth pretty much as Putin's word right now.", "Getting a lesson in reputational risk. Sometimes cheaper isn't better.", 'If they were truly sorry, they’d donate an amount that was a multiple of their gain to Ukraine.', 'But you put on quite a show. Really had me going.', 'Same', 'Exactly what I thought of. It was BP in that though 😂', '“I apologize for laughing, however, I regret nothing.”', 'But did mom apologize to her daughter for naming her Abcde? Who in their right mind would name their kid that?', 'I’m Aussie Who first saw this on one of our news sources. \n\n\nCongrats mum. Now the whole world is laughing at you and your daughter. ', '>The incident unfolded at John Wayne Airport in Orange County, California, on Nov. 2 when the employee noticed the young passenger\'s unique name, pronounced "Ab-city," the girl\'s mother, Traci Redford, told KABC-TV in Los Angeles.\n\nThat really is a stupid fucking name though... like if I saw that written I would have had no idea how to pronounce.', "And yeah, who the fuck names their kid this? May as well name them 'kick me'.... ", 'Could this be an elaborate long-term attention-seeking thing that seems to have finally paid off? Like, "Finally, an excuse to lambast someone for recognizing my child\'s intentionally weird name"', 'I gave my kid a stupid name and now I want attention. ', "Fairly sure it wasn't the kid that was being made fun of", 'I’d laugh too I mean fuck what a stupid name.', '“Ab-city” better develop abs of steel to survive this cruel cruel world.', 'The real tragedy is that [there are 328 people named Abcde](https://www.vocativ.com/culture/society/people-named-abcde/index.html) in the US, almost all of whom are children.  Like, the amount of insect parts per million allowable in our food supply is less of a tragedy than that.', 'This mother has set her child up for years of taunting and bullying, just so she can feel special.\n', 'I heard she’s gonna name her second kid qwerty', "Not ONLY has this stupid tart set up her kid for a lifetime of mockery already, but she went to cry on social media that someone mocked her bad choices in life and has now set up herself and her kid for more mockery. I've only seen a handful of people only mad at the airline employee and not her. Her complaint has only dug herself a deeper hole and now EVERYONE knows what an idiot she is\n\nNewsflash. Your child is not your doll or your pet or an extension of you. They are living breathing people that will have thoughts, hopes, and dreams of their own. Their pain will not be your pain, they are the ones that have to live with the name you inflict on them. \n\nThis mom should have sucked it up and dealt with it. Because god knows, her KID is going to have to for the rest of her life. \n\n", 'I\'m a little conflicted about this.  Yeah, you should be professional at your job, and not mock a five year old.\n\nOn the other hand, you named your child "Abcde" you should expect this shit.  \n\nThat poor child is never going to be able to order anything online because it\'ll get flagged as fraud.  ', "Laughing was the only appropriate reaction to this name.  Don't force us to respect asininity (which I'm pretty sure is the mom's name).  ", 'The mother must have a fucking lame life if this is the only way she can get any attention.....', 'Ab-city bitch, ab-ab-city bitch. One crunch, two crunch, ten crunch, fiddy bitch.\n\nLiterally the only thing I can think of when I saw this pronunciation.', "Her brother HIJK, pronounced hijack, can't fly at all. ", "Let's see, how can I cause a lifetime of pain and embarrassment for my child in one sweeping motion....oh I've got a great idea!   \nPoor kid never had a chance, and given her parent(s) are narcissists it's probably not going to get better. ", "That's nothing.  Their last name is Fgijk.\n\n\n\n", "Are we a nation of hyper-sensitive twits or what? It's an obnoxious name given by a stupid mother. All of her future pass codes should be 12345.", 'What else do you expect when you give your kid a weird name, I can’t help but to suspect that this was an attempt to get attention.\n\nChild services should get involved and require the mom to get a psych evaluation.\n\n', "Now I bet the mom is going to think this attention will launch her daughter's career in showbiz!", 'People who do this to their kids (give them stupid names) are so amazingly self-centered.', 'She’s not getting a job when she grows up.', 'Absidee is a lovely sounding, if unconventional, name with a terribly stupid spelling (“Abcde”). Much like Esspin (“ESPN”) and Ladasha (“La-a”).', 'That child is going to learn just how cruel middle schoolers can be ', "If you didn't want people to make fun of your kids name why would you name them something stupid.", "Can a minor petition for a name change without their parent's consent?  This would definitely be a case study for that scenario lol.  ", "Abcde\n\nWhen your name’s quite dumb and the fault’s with Mom\n\nIt's Abcde\n\nShe was going for cool but she looks a fool\n\nIt’s hard to bear\n\nNo one can pronounce it\n\nIt just isn’t fair\n\n\nAbcde\n\nPronunciation’s hard, play the victim card\n\nIt's Abcde\n\nAnd the airline staff cannot help but laugh\n\nIt’s hard to bear\n\nNo one can pronounce it\n\nIt just isn’t fair", 'A modern day version of ["A Boy Named Sue"](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZR5XGTpophI)', 'My boyfriend is playing Civilization 6 and asked me what to name his city. Thanks for the inspiration! ', '[Lewis Black talked about this years ago] (https://youtu.be/Z1mOFzv02lk)', 'How do you not laugh at that name?', "Clearly this woman lives for drama otherwise she wouldn't name her child something so stupid as to invite ridicule ", 'lol mom was outraged that someone laughed at her joke', 'Someday, the child may wish she was born in Sweden, which has a law that bans parents from stupidly naming their kids. Amongst names that have been rejected are Superman and Metallica.', "Normally these names don't make it out of the trailer park.", 'To the parent: "Take this laugh as a sign of you being an idiot."', 'Where were all the rational people at when this woman told them "... and if it\'s a girl, I was thinking of scarring her for life by calling her Abcde."  To think that nobody sat her down and said "Why?  Do you want her to be a rapper or work on Sesame Street?"', 'she needs to get used to that reaction. she will be getting it for the rest of her life, thanks to her idiot mother.', 'Mom should be jailed. Jesus christ, idiocracy IRL', "This mother had better get used to her daughter being laughed at, because it's going to keep happening for a long time. Naming your kid Abcde is like giving them a face tatoo! Poor Abcde did not sign up to be the comic relief in her mom's zany reality show life. As someone with a moderately wacky name, I can say for sure that it'll be an albatross until she changes it. There's no need to shame the employees here, either it's a joke name and they laughed.", 'Oh she is only 5 and airlines make fun of her? Wait until she goes to highschool and college! ', 'The mom is a narcissist and the dad is whipped. Abcde herself is just unlucky.', 'But 7 never had to apologize to 9, and 6 is still afraid. Where is justice?', 'That girl is changing her name when she turns 18.', 'I thought this name was an urban legend. Once this kid gets old enough to change her name, she probably will.', 'Don’t give your kids stupid names. That’s like taping a “kick me” sign to their backs ', 'Obviously their right to name their kid whatever they want but damn, kid is probably gonna get hazed so much for having a name like that. Kids are not kind.', "I'm of the opinion that names like this should be considered some sort of abuse or neglect. You can't be unaware when naming your kid something like this that they'll be mocked and laughed at constantly. If that's not neglect, I don't know what is.", 'Good on him/her for laughing. Should have pointed at the parent and laughed.', "I wouldn't have apologized, If you don't want someone laughing at your kid, quit giving them stupid names.", "The employee's name was STFU", 'Thankfully they named the seat rows after her, that should make up for it', 'dude you named your kid A B C D E ... what the F U C K do you expect?!?!?!', 'It’s not just the airline. It’s going to be literally everywhere your child goes she’s going to be made fun of for that name. ', 'It makes me sad that Abcde isn’t the worst kid name I’ve seen. Of course, I avoid saying the names of babies that I can’t pronounce because people get mad. I wind up giving cutesy nicknames to most of my NICU kiddos. But, I’m skeptical the mocking went to the extent that the mom claims. That seems like a super excessive reaction to a strange name with the whole social media thing.', "Isn't that a Genesis song?\n\n", 'Quit naming your kids stupid names. No one thinks your kid is special except for you.  ', 'The name *is* ridiculous but is it really *that* hard to act like you have some home training and not be an ass about it? ', "N*ah fam, that family fucked up that kid's name and it's funny*  \\- Everyone 2018", '“....I mean, but come on.” they added shortly afterwards.  ', 'r/raisedbynarcissists', 'You do something stupid, expect stupid responses ', 'I would rather be named Lmno', 'How could you not laugh (at the dumbass parents that is)?', 'I\'m glad my country forbids such shit. Only in the US...\n\nYou may argue that this is a freedom of speech issue, but children don\'t get any freedom in the choice of their name, so atleast the parents should be forced not to find a "hilarious" name like Abcde or Adolf Hitler (hitler as 2nd name).', 'Trash parents. This kid’s got little chance. ', 'Her brother’s name is Vwxyz pronounced “vee wex is”', 'That mother should be slapped!\nJust wtf was she thinking?!', 'Does this dumb-arse Mum realise turning this into an international news story is actually exposing her poor daughter to far more mockery than the original incident ever did..? ', 'Parent for exactly what they wanted. Their kid got attention and a news story about them. They are now special and “famous”. \n\nI have a fairly common last name, but it has the less common spelling. I find it annoying to always have to spell it out. \n\nAnyone who spells their kids name in a strange way to be different or give their kid a strange name does not realize the annoyances they will have their entire life. ', "I'm gonna name my son Zyxwvvutsrqponmlkjihgfedcba \nso he can drunk drive and pass the backwards alfabet test. It's pronounced Zach with a soft h", 'Names I learned were real from working in a call center: abcde (ab city), female (tamale...but feh-), shithead (shuh theed).\n\nMe: “and how do you spell your name?”\n“A b c d e”\nMe: “welp, can’t put you in the system because that’s not a real name...”\n\nThe system literally rejected the input because it was buffered...on all of them...', 'When you name your kid using the auto-name generator.\n\nFeel bad for the kid though. They had no say.', 'Holy shit I thought that the name Abcde was just a Lewis Black joke. ', "She definitely shouldn't have done it in earshot. No matter how stupid the name is that's just rude.\n\nBut God damn woman! That's a stupid fucking name!", "Parent names kid something stupid so that eventually she can be outraged when someone points out how stupid it is. Trust me, by the time this kid is 18 she'll be calling herself Tracey or Mary or something simple. ", 'Sorry, I laughed just reading the headline.  \n', 'Lmno would be much better', 'The only people in the wrong here are the parents.  Fucking idiots.', 'I get that the kid should not be laughed at, but this mom...what did she expect? Nobody would have a less than stellar reaction to this name? And she took it to national media? I know people with weird sounding names that get a chuckle and they just tell the person to grow up and move on with their life.\n\nThis name seems almost designed to elicit a reaction that they can then use for attention. ', 'Good job mom, make a big deal out of it on social media so the entire world makes fun of the name and calls you a moron.', 'The agent wasn\'t making fun of the kid...they were making fun of the stupid attention-seeking white trash mother who was trying way too hard to be unique and special and named their kid something incredibly dumb.  Worst part of the story?  300 other kids in the US are named "Abcde".  Wanna take a guess at how many are trashy single mothers with no career and spend all day attention-seeking on social media??', 'They were right to mock her.', 'And now as a result of the mom bringing attention to this story, even more people are going to be laughing at her for the stupid name she gave her kid.', 'The Mother had to have known that her child would be going through a lot of teasing in school with that name ABCDE. Mother was not thinking about the consequence it will eventually inflict upon her daughter.', 'So she wants Southwest to show respect for her daughter even tho she didn’t herself. Amazing.', 'Her mom\'s given name was "dmazbech" until she changed it as an adult.', 'Look I get the social media was too far but holy fuck do I hope this kiddo has a readable let alone pronunceable middle name. \n\nCause once she is old enough to form options and ideas that first name is gonna change faster than a shit filled diaper (when she can legally change it without you, mom)..\n\nThis is gonna be 12 or more years of people laughing to the point of being unable to breath when they learn the truth... Jesus this is the name equivilant of being an anti-vaxxer. ', "Pronounced ab-cidee. If I got the opportunity to laugh AT HER MOM I'd do it.  ", "it's not southwest's fault that the parents gave their kid an idiotic name. the parents should be apologizing to their child.", 'Just going to throw this out there... I don’t think that an-city is the correct pronunciation.\n\nI guess it’s the closest thing to normal as they could get after ruining their daughters life.', 'ffs. get used to the abuse sunshine. what idiot parents.', 'Oh come off it... What\'s next, children named "Biggus Dickus"? ', 'Everyone is going to call this kid “Obesity” because kids are little shits. ', '“ name shaming”\nBitch, don’t name your kid stupid shit like Abcde and you won’t have to feel shamed in the first place', 'She better get used to getting laughed at.  "The dash ain\'t silent!"', 'Given name: Abcde \nMiddle name(s): Fghijk lmnop \nSurname: Qrstuv-Wxyz. ', "Am I the only one who was hoping Abcde's last name would be something Polish, so all the x's, y's and z's would balance it out?", 'At least make it all caps what are we savages?', '"You first."\n\n\n\nSW Airlines first draft', 'I would have gone with "qwerty" or at least "asdf" instead.. much easier to type.', 'That name should be considered child abuse.', 'I was at a supermarket and the cashier was named Abcde....\n\ni almost lost it but did not smirk or make a joke at all once I realized it was not her fault at all', 'I hear her brother Qwerty boarded the flight without comment. ', 'I gave my kid a goofy name.  Now everyone please apologize.', 'Attention seeking mom gives daughter attention seeking name; upset she is getting attention.\n\nIf she didn’t want people making fun of her daughter’s name, she shouldn’t give her a stupid name. She might as well start getting used to it.\n\nAnd has she never heard of the Streisand effect? She is bringing way more attention to it by going to the media.  Makes me think it’s more about getting free stuff from Southwest than any actual insult.', 'The parents made the fun when they named their kid Abcde, the employees just witnessed it. ', 'Worst name since Joey Jo Jo Jr Shabadoo', 'Why is nobody worried about her little brother Fghij? That poor kid is gonna be made fun of too. ', 'Its not the employee’s fault. The mother shouldn’t have named the child “Abcde”', 'Tbh its pretty hilarious and what were the parents thinking (or not).  ', "I honestly have no problem with morons being called out for being morons. This woman has severely hampered her daughter's life, and now she's upset because others called her out on it. Southwest should have ignored her.", 'Should’ve laughed and then threaten to call CPS when the parents freaked out ', 'STU could not be reached for comment.', 'Lol how do you even pronounce her name?!? Abk’dee?', "The reason I would be laughing is because Lewis Black made a joke about a healthcare provider told him that there was a child named Abcde some years back. He pronounced it (Ab-ci-day)\n\n\nBut I would also like to ask this thread a question. Which name is worse, Abcde(Ab-ci-day) or Shithead (Shi-th-aid)?\n\n[The skit that I'm talking about ](https://youtu.be/Z1mOFzv02lk)", 'Fun fact: In Italy names considered ridiculous or shameful are banned by law   \n\n\n[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Naming\\_law](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Naming_law)', 'It is not the place of a business\' employee to make fun of her in a public forum. As experience dictates, it is the place of everyone she knows to do it behind her back for the rest of her life. \n\nCan a parent be charged with a hate crime?\n\nEdit: Still not the worst name I\'ve heard. My mother taught in public schools in NYC and she encountered a young girl named "Female," presumably because her parents printed her sex on the wrong line of her birth certificate and decided not to fix it.', 'Seriously, if you have a stupid name and get laughed at...oh well.', 'My name is Dallas. According to my dad, my name is the most "unique" he\'s ever given his kids. I like it because it\'s uncommon but not super rare and stupid. ', "You can't blame the guy, though it's the parents who deserve mocking. I hope the girl will change her name when she is able. What an awful thing to do to a child; at the very least, they could have made it her middle name.", 'How does one pronounce it?', "Yeeea here's the thing. Funny name or not, you don't just take a pic of someone's info and post it to social media, especially if they're within earshot. \n\nIf there's proof of the social media stuff, then the person should probably be fired. A boarding pass isn't exactly a social security number but it's still a piece of private property with personal information that your employer is expecting you to treat professionally. \n\nAnd wow, like NONE of the older comments read the article apparently. Unless you're all willingly sticking up for the employee lambasting a child on social media with information that was provided via their employer and expressly not for that purpose.", 'Lol why? That’s a ridiculous dumb fucking name', 'Well, it is a fucking stupid name.\n\n', 'Whoever named that child is a fucking idiot. ', "People who name their children shitty names like these should be dumped in a ditch and covered in shit. Talk about making your kids' lives hell. Kids already latch onto anything remotely similar to another's name just so they can insult them, giving them a loaded cannon does not help. You're not making your children special, you're making them victims of bullying because of your own vanity.", 'The child was not laughed at, her shitty name was.  Do something knowingly ridiculous and easy to laugh at, get upset because people naturally laugh at a stupid name... ', 'We just had our second daughter. We named her Sara.  Our first is Grace. Stick with classic names. You will never regret it nor will your children.', 'A gile\n\nB allerina\n\nC irculating\n\nD enmark\n\nE ffortlessly', 'Southwest gave her a letter of reprimand.', 'Anyone have nudes of the mom?', 'I don’t think an apology is necessary. Mommy and daddy have the responsibility to explain why they named their child like fucking assholes. Who could take that name seriously?', "Can't even laugh these days, hypersensitive, perfectionist society", 'Better headline: lazy asshole parent names child after first five letters of the alphabet. ', 'I laughed too, but then I realized that their parents must be pretty shitty.', "I won't lie, name like ABCDE seems so odd. Would be like if I had a son and named him Male (pronounced Mayle)", "No matter how stupid you may think a name may be, making fun of a kid's name while they/their parent can hear you is pretty shitty.  On top of that, can you imagine going to any business and the employees make fun of your name/your child's name while you can hear them?  ", "i just laughed, guess i'd be fired too", "I've always been curious how the people at the hospital/Social Security/or whoever is in charge allows names like this.", 'So does that mean I have to apologize as well because I laughed my ass off at the woman that first named her daughter Abcde and the doubled down by pronouncing it "ab-city"?\n\n[Oh hey Dewey how is it pronounced?](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sa9FiKzn3ak)', "Sooooo.... you can't laugh at stupid people anymore?", 'Made me laugh out loud ', "That's some funny shit.", "I'm sorry for laughing at your kid's name, even though it's literally a joke.", 'What?!  No.  Abcde, you have my chuckle.', '*"And stop apologizing!  It\'s always \'I\'m sorry\' this or \'Forgive me\' that or \'I\'m not worthy...\'.   Now knock it off!"*', 'I hope the poor kid just goes by Abby as soon as she realizes what a stupid name she has. Which should be right when she starts school and has to cringe during every roll call.', 'Take it back.  With a name like that comes territory.', 'This is the best Streisand effect I’ve seen in a while. ', 'Better not enroll her in school because it will be a lot worse there.', 'Soon followed by an apology by everyone to the girl for having an idiot for a mother ', 'I am generally against government interference in people’s day to day lives, but do you sometimes get the feeling we have *too much* freedom?  There should be some rules against this kind of child abuse. ', 'Are we at this point in life now?', 'Good, maybe the parents will feel bad', "The one time they didn't need to apologize", 'Just named my kid - hijklmno - now can you say it?', 'One of my students is actually named Abcde. She is 16 and has lived with what she thought was a unique name. I wonder if she read this story. ', 'So much going on here... \n\nPublicity stunt maybe?\n\nIf the mother cared about her daughter she would have handled this quietly. Now there are thousands of articles and posts with this girl\'s photo and millions of comments ridiculing the mother. Anytime anyone ever searches for her name these will pop up.\n\nDoes anyone have a link showing the actual Facebook post? Unless that post went seriously viral it\'s amazing that anyone who know the family would have seen it. \n\nDo we know what the agent said and if it was malicious? Maybe it was self deprecating like "haha, Im such a fool and almost called security. See this family here, don\'t worry, this pass is valid"\n', 'Remember that whole "la-a (ladasha)" myth.\n\nWelp, it\'s like that but in actuality.', 'But what about her brother Fghij?\n', "I've seen the names Lysterine and Kocane. Go figure.", 'Her second child (if she has one) should be named Fghij.\n\n', 'I wonder if this is going to turn out to be [Munchausen By Proxy](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Factitious_disorder_imposed_on_another) ', 'DeFranco said it best with yes, it was incredibly shitty  for the Airline employees to post photos of the full name on social media and publicly mock the 5 year old. But this lady set her kid up for this for the rest of her life. ', 'seriously thought why did you name your kid the first 5 letters of the alphabet that is just stupid.', 'I dunno-- I think abcde defghijknetly deserved the apology.', 'You know who should be apologizing to the girl...her parents! What a couple of idiots.', "Named her after grandma's Yahoo password. ", 'That name will handicap that child. Her parents did not do her any favors', "Unfortunately the kid better get used to it. Her parents should both get the stupid slapped right the fuck out of them. That's like low key child abuse IMO.", 'My uncle knew a girl named La-A\n\nPronounced "LaDasha" ', "It's an okay name but spelling it that way is kind of stupid, it's just going to confuse literally everyone reading the name off something for life.", 'Oz-wee-pay...whatever asswipe ', 'Stupid fucking name. Kids gonna get laughed at a lot. ', 'What a dumb cunt would name her brat that way?! ', 'stop white people 2019. ', 'This thread is why I hate Reddit.', 'If you give your kid a stupid name, stupid people will laugh at it. ', 'I think Abcde is a very pretty name. Looks strange on paper, but when said out loud is very beautiful in my opinion. Rhapsody without the R. She has nothing to be ashamed of.', 'I’m sorry who makes their child “abuse?”  It’s fucking dumb ', 'As a proud parent of Leeloo, I think the name Abcde is better than yet another damn Mary ', '"I apologize because I could really use this job, however, I regret nothing."', '"I am sorry you were offended by my impeccable humor"', '“I will stop, but I will not apologize.”', "Exactly.\n\nIt wasn't nice to laugh at the kid, but the girl better get used to it...or start going by 'Abe' or something.", 'What the fuck did she expect? That kid will catch shit their entire life because mom thought she was creative. What a dumbass.', "That poor girl... and she's such a little QWERTY ", 'Apparently there’s like 300 something people in the US named Abcde. People are dumb. ', "I sold a child life insurance policy on a kid named Abcde back in, oh, 2006?  That kid's legally an adult now, going into the workforce and shit without even a middle name to fall back on.", "Wait, it's not some foreign name? I would laugh too", 'Someone who isn’t mentally stable enough to have kids but did anyways. ', "You know when like, you used to ditch class, go blaze up, then hit the arcade after lunch? \n\n\nDump a couple bucks into some Crazy Taxi, rock out to some Offspring in the process... and o snap, you got the high score! Hmm... what initials should i use? BUT? ASS? CUM? no... too much effort. ABC. This is the amount of care you're seeing for their child's name.", "Maybe the mom's name is XYZ", 'Someone named FGHIJ?', "As someone who has a shit name, I say fuck the parents of that kid. My name was not as bad as Abcde and I had a miserable time during childhood because of it, also when you google me there is only one in the world with my name! How I wish I was a John Smith or Zhang Wei or Mohamed Mohamed...\n\nEven as an adult, it makes life difficult, you meet people and then you have to repeat your name several times before they understand you're not having a seizure. On the phone... I'm not even going there.\n\nAnd for those who wonder why I didn't change it, because circumstances wont allow me to do it.", "I'm afraid a psychopath.", 'The same type of parent that would make their kid wear a Kick Me sign to school everyday.  ', 'I think even Frank Zappa would have issues with that name.', 'The mom is pretty hot but obviously crazy. What father would allow that? Reminds me of a woman that named her daughter Female, pronounced femalee because she thought the hospital already named her on her wristband.', 'This ranks among the worst I\'ve seen.... "Uneeq".... "Significant person".... I would have to ask the question were they high at the time?    \n\nThe same goes for famous people naming their children wierd names but at least those are usually ctual words.', 'There’s 300 ppl named Abcde', 'You should look up the names of some kids out there. Just remember a parent named their kid “Hashtag”. needs to be a law or need to prove why you are naming a kid that name. ', 'I picture her saying "aha, I\'ll name her Abcde and then she\'ll always be at the top/front of every alphabetical list/line!"\n\n\n\nThe day after the birth her brother Aaron visits her in the hospital...', 'Yeah i almost feel like the mom named her that way specifically to get reactions from people and she now regrets the reactions she gets. Still not cool for the person to laugh while the child is their or post it online.', '100% would not be surprised if the kid changes her name first chance she gets after she turns 18', 'I see no kid name like that far as East West.', "I've seen that name before. It was a girl either late teens or early 20s based on how she looked. ", '>Who in their *right mind*\n\nGot your answer right there...\n\nThis is a good case for introducing certain restrictions on what to name people. There was a recent case where a mother in Sweden was denied naming her daughter "skrot", which means "scrap" as in "scrap metal".\n', 'I knew someone named Abcde.  Pronounced Abcidé', 'And in that same vein, who the hell names their kid Dick?\n\nIs Abcde any worse than Dick?', 'We can have our opinions but not you, not I nor anyone for that matter has the right to that opinion only the mother. People need to straighten the fuck up, have some common decency and most especially leave the fuck alone the child, the mother need not apologize to anyone in anything and solely on that person in question should apologize and feel some sense of embarrassment and shame for how they conducted themselves in the first place..\n\n      There’s and old saying I and everyone should live by.\nPick on someone your own size and let’s see how that shit turns out..\n', "I don't think anyone is laughing at the daughter, just the mom.", '>I’m Aussie Who \n\nThe fuck kind of name is Aussie Who? \n', 'We can’t judge. The standard in QLD is to take a random letter and replace it with a Y. Bonus points if you hyphenate it too. \n\nSource: Work with a Jordyn and a Shannyn. Friends with a Jennifyr. ', '>"ab-city"\n\nNo one is ever going to get that right in the entire history of people trying to pronounce her name on sight.', 'Kendrick Lamar’s new album? \n\nGood Kid Ab-city', '>like if I saw that written I would have had no idea how to pronounce\n\nThat\'s because there is literally no way to pronounce it under the pronunciation rules of the English language. I would probably just pronounce it as "A-B-C-D-E" if I saw it in writing.', "I'd honestly just assume it was placeholder text. It's what it sounds like. That comes through on a ticket, you'd think something fucked up.", "Moderately surprised that mom's name isn't Traci Fghijk", "Ab-city? That's such an inelegant way to phrase it. I would have gone for rhapsody without the initial R.", 'Some people are so desperate for attention that they use their kid as a way to get it, not giving a damn that the child will probably grow up damaged as fuck. My parents did this to a milder degree.', '“Um....Shithead?”\n\n“IT’S ‘SHEH-THEAD’!”', "It's pronouced Keeq-may.", "Lots of parents try to make up for the past and live through their kids.\n\nI was near one of those toddler beauty pageant events, and every mom was like 300+ lbs.  Yeah, you're living your fantasies through your perfectly made up and coiffed kids.", 'I’m confused why you get to preboard for epilepsy.', 'Absolutely yes. ', 'I gave my kid a stupid name BECAUSE I want attention and I don’t care whether the child grows up to want the same.', "It does scream for attention. But, in all fairness, it became worldwide attention after the employee posted it on social media. The mother found out a few weeks later.\n\nI really don't like the idea that an airline employee can take a picture of your boarding pass and post it on a personal page. \n\nKaspersky has a list of reasons NOT to do this.\n\nhttps://www.kaspersky.com/blog/dont-post-boarding-pass-online/10495/\n", 'So a little bit of originality in choosing name warrants mean public ridicule?  Of a little girl?\n\nMeanwhile we are constantly told to be tolerant and accepting of all sorts of degenerates.\n\nBut I guess having an unusual name crosses the line and justifies intolerance.\n\n\n', "That is exactly what I thought. It was the mom who named her. \n\nEither way the girl needs to get use to getting teased about her name, it will happen her whole life unless she legally changes it. I feel so bad for her, it's going to be rough on her growing up. I'd almost go as far as call it child abuse. ", 'She\'ll eventually learn the refrain of the unfortunately named: "I didn\'t choose it."', 'Her big brother Fghijk is going to beat you up!', 'I went to school with a girl named Ocean Blue Texas and I honestly think that was a better name than this. ', 'Yeah but would you loudly mock the child in their presence and post her boarding pass online? I agree it’s a fucking stupid name and could earn a earnest snicker upon reading it, but the agent just went full asshole on a kindergartener. ', 'The kids name is hilarious but if that airline doesn’t fire its worker for posting a customers shit online then they are dumb as hell.', "You know, the way it's intended to sound (Ab-city) is not *THAT* stupid, but the spelling absolutely is. ", "Yeah it's obviously unprofessional. Just laugh in your head and talk shit later like the rest of us", 'taking a picture is understandable (though not really excusable) since who would believe you if you told them without the proof. But the social media posting is way too far just like you said.', 'Yeah I can see her being mocked every day she goes to school. She\'ll even see "her name" on the header outlining chalkboards/whiteboards for many years to come. ', "I think people aren't aware that posting pictures of a 5 year olds full name to twitter is the shitty behavior on Southwest. But yeah the mom has to know her kids going to be mocked for life. ", "Agreed, but doesn't that make the news networks equally guilty for sharing the image with her full name and signal boosting the incident to profit on the story?", "I mean... not really?  It's a boarding pass.  It's still for all general purposes anonymous.  The likelihood of anyone that mother or daughter knows seeing it is pretty darn low.  There's nothing to tie the pass to the individual people.\n\nEspecially were she to blur out the last name before posting.", 'Pics or it didn’t happen. ', 'Ab-city bitch, ab-ab-city bitch. One crunch, two crunch, ten crunch, fiddy bitch.', 'She better hope she is really skinny. 14 year olds would have a field day with a fat girl named Ab-city.', 'Sounds like the name of somebody on a Jersey Shore revival. ', 'This stupid woman even failed at her attempt of being original, with other 300 other stupid people.', '>The median age of Abcdes is 7.5, and all but 11 of them are minors.\n\nSo the adult ones have already changed their name?', 'Hey now, insects are just protein.', 'They are all children because the adult ones already changed their name.', 'Just 13 more years of hell until she can legally change her name.', "qwerty if it's a girl, dvorak if it's a boy. ", 'middle initial U, last name Iop\\[\\]\\\\', 'their adopted french kid will be renamed Azerty', "That doesn't make sense, it's clearly going to be Fghij", 'At least people know how to pronounce qwerty.', "At least we'd know how to pronounce it", "You'll notice that names come and go. At one point, calling your child a car name was lambasted, and now common. I'm talking about Escalade, Mercedes, etc. When a trend starts, we look at it strangely. And if it catches on, we don't think about it again.\n\nI wouldn't name a child Abcde, but that doesn't mean the parents are in the wrong. Its a somewhat unique name, sure. I once met JamesT Kirk. It was a cute name, which didn't catch on, but the uniqueness helped him in life, later.\n\nThe part which gets me, is the shaming the employee did of a customer and a child. ", 'They weren\'t mocking the 5 year old. They were mocking the dumbass that named the kid. Now dumbass is hiding behind the kid to appeal to people\'s sympathies (or they\'re in denial about what a dumbass they are), but that isn\'t going to work because the first thing that will come to anyone\'s mind when they hear the kid\'s name is "Who\'s the dumbass that gave their kid *that* name?"', 'Posting on social media is too far, but I\'m imagining swiping passes and reading names: "Steve... Mary... Michael... Tyler... Abcde..."  I think I would burst out laughing by surprise.  She should have apologized though and definitely not posted a photo on Facebook ', 'Hey!  Abcde is a family name with a long and proud history!', 'Shes pretty so shes probably used to getting what she wanted.\n\nAnd so i bet that attention dropped as soon as she got knocked up', 'i figured it was a normal last name, like Abcde Glasscock', 'The h is silent', "Ah, using the dog's name for a pass code.  Original.", "That's the kind of thing an idiot would put on his luggage", "Do jobs usually hire based on names where you're from?", 'I mean it kinda has the best mix of "abscess" and "obesity".', 'Yes, they [can](https://slate.com/news-and-politics/2008/07/1069-talula-does-the-hula-from-hawaii-and-other-names-so-weird-that-judges-forbade-them.html)', 'That why she was so offended, it’s really making fun of the mom, and she knows it.', 'Middle school kids will decimate her!  Cruelest creatures on the planet.', "> That seems like a super excessive reaction to a strange name with the whole social media thing.\n\nand honestly, she should get used to it because it's going to happen again.", 'yeah kind of a dick move. its not the kids fault their mom is a moron', "Prob laughing at the mom who deserves it. It's not a dick move imo", 'Do we really believe the moms version of events? She named her child ABCDE...\n\nAlso, why’s does epilepsy mean you get to preboard? ', 'hrmmm... "Ellemen-O" or "Ab-city". Tough choice there. ', 'Laughing my nut off', 'Lol shithead. There seriously was a person named that???', 'A poorly written name generator', 'He should get royalties for the news story', 'That’s not a name, that’s a lazy mother.  I agree completely.  ', '"You done messed up now, Ay-Ay-Ron!" ', 'I would pronounce it “Poor Child”', 'Who shot JR?', 'Ab-city', '> How does one pronounce it?\n\nThroatwobbler Mangrove', "Didn't click did ya? Ab-City ", '> Southwest gave her a letter of reprimand.\n\nso when you name your kid "abcde" and get a letter of reprimand, is that letter "f"?', 'You can tell him that you named him after the capital of the Maldives.', "So what you're saying is that they should have made fun of them once they walked away and out of earshot. ", 'Hitch-clam-no.', '"Abcity". It\'s the second paragraph in the article.', 'If you give your kid a stupid name, people will laugh at you. FTFY. ', 'To give your child a stupid name, you are likely quite stupid as well. Maybe even enormously stupid. ', '>Who the fuck calls their kid "Abcde"...?!\n\nSomeone who also probably has really easy-to-guess passwords?', 'If this was a different situation the outcome would be different. Yes. ', 'Joan Smith ', 'My little zeezox agrees', 'We at Southwest airlines are very sorry our employee laughed at Abcde. We are also sorry for laughing at Biggus Dickus, Long Wang, Harry P. Ness and Mike Hunt. ', 'In some countries, there are laws to keep parents from saddling children with troublesome names. That said, the agent should have been more careful. My experience with Southwest is that they are the friendliest and best airlines employees around. They do like a little humor sometimes, though. Like telling everyone they will be issued fresh underpants in the event of an in-flight emergency.', 'Or at least spell it as it sounds, Abisidi or something like that', 'Abby would work', "If an adult (i think) laughed, I can't imagine how fun school is going to be", 'abby would work', 'My friend is having a kid and they called all of their asshole friends (i was first one called) over to help pick a name that the kid will not catch hell over.  We are returning for meeting 2 this Saturday.', "When she's 18 she can legally change her name.", "What's worse, is the kid is not learning to be tough like Sue.", 'That’s her brother’s name. ', 'At least QWERTY is pronounced like it’s written. ', "QWERTY's parents at least have a chance of passing down some level of Autism Spectrum Distorter which gives the kid a fighting chance of getting by in this world. ABCDE's parents can only pass down pay day loan debt, a single wide trailer, and a used meth pipe.", 'Just out of morbid curiosity I love to see a get together with as many of them as possible, and the parents. ', 'At least they have a jump on most kids learning the alphabet.', 'If you go for a placeholder name you might as well choose Lorem Ipsum', "At least their parents can say they're one in a million. Can your parents say the same?\n\nI'm sorry, that was harsh, I didn't mean it.", "What is the rational of selling life insurance policies for kids? They have no families to support. It sounds less like insurance and more like gambling with actuaries to see if the kid dies before the premiums stop getting paid. I know I must be missing something. I'm honestly curious to know what the justification for it is.", 'Why? Was their middle name Fghijk? ', 'The cycle continues.', 'Pronounced "f\'heege"?', "That joke was old in the 70's when I first heard it.", "There probably isn't a father to keep this crazy woman from ruining thier kid. ", "Pretty hot? I'm not going to be a huge asshole, but no.", '> What father would allow that?\n\nAn equally crazy father obviously. ', 'Fema Lee doesn’t sound like a bad name', 'To be fair most of the time Dick is just short for Richard which is a perfectly fine name. ', 'At least "Dick" is easy to spell upon hearing. This girl is doomed to a life of "How do you spell ab-city?" and then seeing the person struggling to stifle laughter or look at her with an unspoken "What\'s wrong with your mother?" when she spells it.', 'Dick is short for Richard and is a perfectly valid name. Tons of people have been named Richard throughout history. ', "I think you are being downvoted by people named penis. They can sometimes stand up for themselves when you don't expect it and are always a dick.", 'Shut up', 'My opinion is that you have bad words. ', 'I for one feel sorry for the daughter... Having to grow up with a challenged parent can definitely be tough', 'A much less PC version of doctor who .... travels the universe in a dunny solving problems with a barbie and a slab of fosters.', 'Still a better name than Abcde', 'Jordyn and Shannyn are awful. But they’re names. Abcde isn’t. ', "Only a few choices at this point\n\n* Name change\n* Go by Nickname/Middle name\n* Certified fitness instructor\n\nAbcde: Hi, my name is Ab City. I'll be your personal fitness coach.\n\nMe: I believe you", "Exactly! If anything, people are going to think it's a joke or typo.", 'Only reason I\'d get it right is because my first thought would be "holy shit my Aunt wasnt lieing all those years ago when she said she taught a girl named Abcde"\n\nDifferent girl though, this happened about 10 years ago in Texas.  Still shocked to hear theres another girl named Abcde', "It's not even pronounced that way because that doesn't even make sense.\n\nYou can't just make shit up and say how it is pronounced. That would be like your written name being Michael but you demand people pronounce it Kevin. That's not how fucking language works.", "If she ever gets fat she's going to be ridiculed with that name. ", 'Radiohead: *Kid ABCDE*', 'What’s your name?', "It's pronounced Dirté!", "Not teatime, it's Te-at-im-e", 'Sha-dynasty!', "Shame any of her job applications in the future will start out with a name that makes it look like a middle schooler trolling the application form. I'd bet that she goes by Abby as soon as she's old enough to request it and changes it legally as soon as she can to that.", 'I like your thinking ', "But how is this making up for the past? If anything it's making sure this kid is constantly mocked", 'Thats ... a fair point', 'How do you pronounce BECAUSE?', 'Umm they didn’t mock the kid. And I’m not mocking the kid. We’re mocking the idiot ass mother that named her that. If anything I pity the kid. ', '> we are constantly told to be tolerant and accepting of all sorts of degenerates\n\nYikes, by your hostility and wording I can already tell what kind of people you might consider "degenerates" and are angry to have to tolerate them. ', 'Making weird choices about your own appearance may attract some mockery, but it doesn\'t deserve the derision reserved for inflicting your "creativity" on a child.', 'Look up Marijuana Pepsi. ', "That name's gonna look great on resumes and CV's.  ", 'It\'s pronounced "Fezzik", I think. ', 'Lmnop has some words too.', "Someone who's name pronounces like Fudghijick scares the boots off me. </s>", '"My name is Elemenopee"', 'What about the cousins?  Asdf and Jkl;?', 'Those are at least actual words.', 'Evocative. I can picture her. \n\nIt’s nice. Don’t ruin it with an actual description. ', 'Lived in Tennessee for about 10 years, there are a lot of girls named Charity and Chastity, but no shit my mother worked with someone named Candy Miracle.', 'I don’t think I hate “Ocean Blue” but it definitely sounds more like a paint color than a name. ', 'The Walmart of the sky. ', 'Yeah I agree, it’s something you laugh about with your coworkers on lunch, not right in front of the person. And you definitely don’t post about it online.', 'That’s mom’s version of the story.....', 'They only seem to have posted the name and what flight the kid and her mom took. Which was going to be public knowledge the moment this lady found the ammo to go public and humiliate her kid even more', 'What exactly does Ab City even mean, what about leg city and arm city?', 'Should have just posted it to reddit and blacked out the last name.', 'Anyone who can Google and find out there are 300 people with this name. ', "Except that's exactly what happened. How do you think she found out about the social media post in the first place?", 'At least Dvorak sounds like a real name. One you’d give to an Orc or a Viking, but still a name. Everyone reading Dvorak can pronounce it, even if it is a bit awkward. ', 'Dvorak *is* a name tho', 'The Mercedes car was named after a woman named Mercedes.   ', ">I'm talking about Escalade, Mercedes, etc.\n\nUm...Mercedes has been a legitimate female first name longer than the automobile company, Mercedes-Benz, has been in existence.\n\n", 'Ive never met a kid called Escalade.\n\nThe mother is 100 percent in the wrong if she wants to name her kid after the alphabet and then get pissy when it gets made fun of. This is what she intentionally set up her kid for. She knows what this world is like. Her daughter doesnt. ', 'Posting customer information should result in immediate termination.', "oh shit.  Forgot the h.  I'm old.\n\n  ", 'abcde *Junior*.  We named the *dog* 12345.', '... amazing, that’s the same combination I have on my luggage! ', 'Studies have shown that having a more normal name results in a significantly higher number of callbacks.    IIRC Idiocracy did a bit on it.', "That's likely to immediately get flagged as spam when you apply somewhere.", "I don't care what's on that girls resume, if it's a job where she's working with customers I'm throwing it out as soon as I see her name is Abcde", "I agree it's a dumbass name but the kid didn't name herself fam. No need to make her feel shitty about a 100% inherited decision, especially not on the clock. ", 'That sounds like a supplement store or a gym.', "No, I had it right. Stupid and inconsiderate people. Laugh at the mom, but the kid can't control her name until she's old enough to change it. ", 'username checks out', 'True or facetious?', 'And Ben Dover.', 'poor Child Abesity', 'It\'s pronounced "Ab-siddy"\n\nI think it\'s Ab-ysmal.', 'That IS how they pronounce it ;( ', 'I met a girl with that name. She pronounced it "Absidy"', 'Well she could be a long lost sister to Eidisi, one of the Pillar men.', 'wow just realized if she is remotely ugly her nickname will be abstinence in high school... ', 'Absidi Jones sounds like the name for a running back hall of famer.', 'Ah yes, father of Elem Enopee.', "Yep. Keep it simple. I might be able to apologize in writing but there's no way I could keep a straight face in person either.", "If it's a boy, Dave. No one catches shit for being called Dave.", "That's too far in the other direction and probably pointless. Kids are creative little cunts, there are no safe names.", "My sister's imaginary names for her kids growing up: Rusty and Daisy. What she ended up with once she had actual kids: Charlie and Ben.", 'Don’t forget to check the initials! Also first initial with last name (common default email address at school). ', 'I nearly convinced my one friend to name his kid Draven.  He went with Hunter instead.  One day the kid will learn he was named that because that is the class my friend plays in WoW.', 'Suggest Gönnhardt. No one with a (fake) German name could be a bad person. Or Gönnherta if the child is a girl.', "My coworker pointed out that when she's 21, she definitely won't be allowed into any bars because people will think it's a fake ID.  When they ask for secondary ID, the bouncer will start to think they're being set up.", "Her brother's name is just plain old Steve (pronounced Bob).", 'Her sister could become JKMNOP.\n\nNoel, like No-L', "Her German cousin's name is QWERTZ", 'This would be a train wreck. Serious r/trashy porn level train wreck.', 'I would like to see the entire alphabet. ', 'While I am not one to stereotype but you will have a room full of black people.... White people name their children sensible names like "moon unit" and "Apple".', 'My ancestors are smiling down on me imperial can you say the same?', 'It’s ok. My name is pretty common. ', "If you're one in a million, there's a thousand of you in China.", 'Do you NEED a rationale when your clients are naming their kids shit like "Abcde?"', "A very much underappreciated reason for life insurance for your kid is time off work. If your child dies you probably aren't going to want to go to the office 3 days later just so you don't miss a paycheck. Life insurance gives you some flexibility to take leave for a while. ", 'Funerals are incredibly expensive', "Maybe kids with stupid names are way more likely to commit suicide, but actuaries haven't caught on yet.", "I have a single 10k policy that can be used for either kid of mine. It's only 80 cents a month. I have it in the unlikely event anything were to happen, I want to make sure I can afford the funeral without any problems. It's worth the price of a candy bar every month. ", 'It provides a savings vehicle the child can tap later.\n\nIt locks in a child’s ability to qualify for more life insurance later.\n\nIt provides money for funeral expenses and other costs.\n\n[source](https://www.forbes.com/sites/barbaramarquand/2016/01/27/the-hows-and-whys-of-life-insurance-for-children/#ba34aea45115)', 'Children’s funerals aren’t half price because they’re small. Most policies are for 2-10k and is a small add on to the parent’s policy. The money does what it always does in terms of life insurance. Helps the beneficiary after death ', 'My dad had a $10k policy on me as a kid to pay for funeral expenses. ', "It's mainly a scam.  The main logic I've seen is that you need money to bury the kid and it should cover that.  You'd be better off putting the payment you're making in a savings account.  If the kid dies you have enough for a funeral, if they live you have a college fund or something.  Life insurance for kids is almost always a scam of some kind. ", "They cost almost nothing and are permanent policies (as long as the payments are made), so guarantee some level of eligibility.\n\nFor example, if they're young enough, a $25,000 benefit may only cost $3/mo (this was a long time ago, I don't know the rates now) and may double into a $50,000 policy when they turn 18.  \n\nIt's not a tremendous amount of money in the scheme of things, but it removes the extra burden of how to handle things if a kid dies&mdash;which is already a terrible situation&mdash;and ensures that they're qualified for some level of coverage to protect their family and assets with when they're older.  \n\nA good portion of them do lapse though.", "cuz life insurance will never be as cheap as when you're young, and if you buy a policy for your kids, they'll still have it when they're in their twenties and thirties and forties. It's essentially another way of saving for your children", "She didn't have a middle name at all.", 'I also remember the one about Lemonjello and Orangello.\n\nhttps://www.snopes.com/fact-check/funny-names/', 'Female Johnston was a student in one of my dad’s classes in the 80’s. ', 'I heard this joke on Night Court', 'Knew someone with the last name Dick. His parents must have been monsters because they named him Harold.\n\nHe went by the nickname of Hal, and not Harry, for obvious reasons.', "> seeing the person struggling to stifle laughter\n\nIt doesn't sound like being laughed at is a common occurrence for this mom.  I am sure it happens only when she comes across jerks.  Maybe it's a good way of filtering out assholes.", '/r/raisedbynarcissists ', 'Fortunately, she’s most likely not vaccinated, so she doesn’t have to worry about growing up.', "I mean... I'd watch that parody a few times... ", '"aw, ah\'ve busted me pluggah. We should stop by a servo in the arvo smoko so I c\'n grab a new one."', '"You ready to take the crunch train down to Ab city?  \n\n"Yeah!!"', 'Unfortunately her middle name is Fghij...', 'One of the first girls named Abcde is actually now a Zumba instructor ', 'All I hear is obesity. ', 'Well she better grow up with incredible abs, otherwise another reason to get teased.', 'It looks like someone just mashing a keyboard', 'This girl is also from Texas ', 'She’s also most likely latina', "To be fair that's how French works ", "This not 'Nam!\n\nThere are rules!", 'Flab-city.', 'Tyga remix: Ab-City bitch Ab-Ab-Ab-City bitch ', "Kid abcde\n\nHer mom's a 'taaaaaaard\n\nWhen you're born to white parents\n\nThis is what you geeeeeet\n\nDisclaimer: I'm a white guy who has seen plenty of these dumbass names from people in my cohort", 'Have you seen that new movie, Bohemian Rhabcde? ', "I think it's Phil Carney", 'Remove the D, and her name could be Abb-see. \n\nOf course, had her mom removed the D, this girl would have never been born.', 'I would change it to Jennifer or Katherine or something.  She could also get emancipated if needed.', 'The amount of teachers these days that look at their student list for roll call and go, “Ah, shit.”', 'Life was too easy, wants to try hard mode.', 'They had absent/poor/neglectful parents, or were ugly ducklings, etc. and never got much attention when they were young.\n\nBut they can now get boatloads of attention through their kids.', 'Becca-Usa', "1. The kid heard the mocking of the gate agent.\n\n2. While I would have not picked such a name, mocking the mother who did it not OK.\n\nIs it OK to publicly mock people who wear gigantic ear lob stretching discs, rainbow colored hair, who are obese, who wear unusual clothing, etc.?  Is it OK to mock people for being different in some small way?\n\nIt's hilarious to see people raise hell when folks make fun of certain differences in others, but if the category has not been put on the approved tolerance list yet, they seem quick to act like assholes and jerks.\n\n\n", 'Just pointing out the hypocrisy.  Unless explicitly "told by society" not to make fun of people for specific things, people seem to jump at the opportunity to mock others. ', 'Actually, Marijuana sounds kind of like an actual name. Both Mari and Juana individually are respectable female names but when you put them together it is a travesty.', "...honestly that sort of name I'd end up giving someone daps/high-fives for if they lived with it.\n\nPretty easy to have a nickname of Mary, Marty, MaryJo, MaryJane, Marion, etc.", '“The choice of a new generation”', 'Coming soon to ten U.S. States and Canada!', 'Unfortunately, she will probably be skipped over immediately when HR thinks it is just someone testing the job application software.', 'Filtered straight to the spam box', 'Why was 10 scared? Because he was in the middle of 9-11. ', 'It\'s "FYOOG-hike"', "I can picture her too.  There's nudity and a stripper pole involved for some reason.", "Not like I could. Haven't see her since I was 14", 'Is it...? I fly Southwest a ton for businesses and personal travel and never have anything but pleasant trips. ', 'Youre thinking of frontier', 'I’m a little inclined to believe her unfortunately when the boarding pass was posted to the agent’s Instagram. ', 'So you don’t think there’s any reason why posting a customers name and where they are flying might be an issue?\n\nI’m fairly certain my travel destinations are not public knowledge.\n\nI don’t give a shit about them laughing but why the hell did they post that shit online?', 'No...not really.', "I imagine it's pronounced like the word Rhapsody, where the word ends with a descending tone. ", "I'm with you. I wonder if people would feel the same way if it was someone taking a picture of another person at the gym and making fun of them on instagram or something. I mean if it's funny that excuses it, right?", 'Seriously though..fire her ass. Posting boarding passes of others is unacceptable. ', 'My last name and my first. both were easy to abuse, first name could rhyme and last was always mispronounced so it sounded nasty.    ', "I'm a grown man.  I have a co-worker who is named after a month.  Once a year for an entire month he gets mocked for it.  ", 'Dvorak *is* a name, albeit a Czech surname.', 'I have a professor Dvorak', 'Lmao, I thought perhaps Klingon too.', 'Mercedes-Benz comes from the name of a woman:\n\n> naming the 1901 Mercedes 35\xa0hp after his daughter\xa0Mercedes Jelline', "The child isn't the only one with that name there are currently a couple of hundred kids with that name - could grow. \n\nNames come in and out of fashion. It's unlikely you will meet a woman name Viola - which was fairly common in the early 1900s. \n\nNor is it expected that an employee would make fun of the child's name, in ear shot of the child. ", "Mm, pretty shit boss you'd be then imo", 'Man this child hood Abesiti epidemic is getting out of hand. Pretty soon everyone is going to have diabetes ', 'Man, people like you are the ones who come up with mean names in school. I just cheered up because Abisidi sounds kinda passable, but then you say Obesity...', 'The second most abysmal name I’ve ever heard, right after “Abis Mal”', 'Old joke about a teacher going nuts trying how to pronounce Ta-a. Finally, at a teacher conference, the mother gets mad...”it’s TaDasha, you fool..!”', "That's how I'm thinking it's pronounced in this situation as well.\n\nIf you want to name a kid Abcde, go instead with Absidy and then when they're old enough, let them know it sounds like Abcde (that can be their fun fact in school.  Make sure you make it sound like you just discovered this).  They will thank you", "LOL Well the dad has a friend named Dave and that might start something with us.   HAHAHA   I'm gonna suggest it.  I think they may go with Bruce. The parents like Bruce Campbell and Batman.", 'Everyone knows Dave', 'It\'s pretty solid, though it will eventually get a "Gee, I don\'t know Davey, is that what Jesus would do?"  Also, it\'s like "These are the Daves I know", everyone has a Dave association, and as many of them are assholes as there are good Daves, so it depends a lot on their circle.  Anyway, I think you need to provide your female suggestion as well, what\'s the girl version of Dave?', 'Phil. Nobody fucks with a Phil.', "Dave's not here man.", 'Like Dave Capisano, but I hardly know him...', 'Unless you want someone to open the pod bay doors for you. ', 'I know two Davids who insist on being called "David." One, it suits him perfectly and he should never ever be called Dave. The other is totally a Dave and whenever he emphasizes his desire for both syllables it\'s like, "Okay, *David.*" and eyes are rolled. Ironically the well-named David is actually fun while the should-be-Dave is kind of weirdly uptight.', 'There was a kid in my high school people referred to as "Dirty Dave" for no other reason than that his name was Dave. ', "Yeah back in the early 90's a guy I went to school with his was G.A.Y. he dropped out. I didn't mess with him I was too busy being made fun of cause of my high voice.\n", "Hey Gönnherea, what's up?", 'Pull up the news article on her smartphone', "I just look at the picture, and the month and year of birth.  I miss birthdays all the time because I don't need to see the day of birth, and I never read the name.", 'OMG did you just repost the comment your coworker said?!', 'However the B is silent. ;)', 'Better than Phteven I suppose.', "sorry, it's actually spelled Fghij.", 'its pronounced " Stove"', 'I had an idea for a fictional character named "When" but it\'s pronounced as "Yes." I have no idea where this thought came from.', 'Pronounced Jake-minnop.', 'Is Springer still around? loll', 'The lady in this article looks pretty white to me.', 'The last guy that asked that question got his head cut off. Tread lightly.', "That and funerals aren't cheap.", '> It provides a savings vehicle the child can tap later.\n\nSo like any normal investment account, just with more limitations and **way** higher fees?', 'There IS at least one Alpacino DeNiro out there. Fact.', 'And the one about some std? Clemedia? Something like that. Surprised nobody has made up an obviously fake "inner city" name about "Aych-Ivy" or something like that.', 'Nosmo King', 'Yeah but what about lamelo and Liangelo', "I've seen Asshole(Ashley) personally. Blew my mind.", 'I am Orangello', 'Being laughed at is going to be a common occurrence for her kid unfortunately', "You mean you've never seen the [Indian version](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PxcMCr_lA7M)? Or the [Japanese version](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eak26ohx1Y8)?", "The quad city DJ's lesser known hit, because its stupid. ", '"It\'s CRUUUNNNNCCCHHHH time!"', 'Pronounced Figgage.', '“Fiji? That’s a lovely island. Is that where your parents met?”', "No one mashes abcde after eachother. The keys aren't even close. They could smash qwerty or a random set of letters but it's a very low chance the word Abcde can be smashed unwillingly.", 'Phil?  PHIL CARNEY? \n\nDont say you dont remember me cuz Im sure as heck if I remember you!\n\nNED!  \n\nNeedlenose Ned!  Ned the Head!\n\nCome on buddy Case Western High!', 'Phil? Phil Collins? Like the singer? ', "Yep, really it's just a name and everyone should understand that. That's what I tell my son Hitler. I just can't understand why he keeps getting grief over his name.", 'Sounds and strings of letters bring to mind certain ideas and feelings in people. That’s normal and expected behavior. That’s how neural networks work.\n\nAnd in this case, the string of letters “abcde” reminds many English speakers of a children’s song, perhaps even thoughts of children clapping and singling along. To some people that’s humorous, because humor and laughter is a natural human activity.\n\nSo instead of calling people small minded, perhaps you should hear them out. Meaning is attached to sounds and letters, and naming your kid “Pig Fucker” and getting upset at other people for finding that silly makes YOU small minded.', 'try being a boy named Sue', 'The father was Jar Jar Binks.', 'Is that pronounced Becca United States of America?', "You've gotta ask why people (who are not part of some isolated islander tribe) wear those stretchy earlobe things or give their kids stupid names when they know well that they are likely to draw at best the wrong kind of attention and at worst full mockery.  I can only imagine that they want to cause these reactions and that it's their way of sticking their finger up at the world. \n\nIt's different to mock, say, a kid who has a disability that they were born with. That's shameful and wrong. But someone who deliberately does something that should be painfully obvious is going to draw scorn (such as this silly attention-seeking mother) and should get no sympathy.\n\nIn this case, this mother not only cursed her poor daughter to bullying for life, but she is also quite happy to splash her daughter all over social media to encourage, nay invite, the world to join the bullying party. What kind of mother does that?\n\nMock away, I say. Society has to stop placating self-serving imbeciles. ", 'Whew lad, I think you should hop off your high horse there. \n\nThe kid isn’t being bullied and she isn’t being harassed. Her idiot mother gave her some shitty name to seek attention and people think it’s so absurd it’s funny. If anyone is laughing at someone it’s the stupid mother. Would you be opposed to those mocking someone who named their child Adolf?\n\nDying hair is not permanent and a conscious choice someone made. Yes people will give them shit, but the world sucks. However it can always be reversed. This kid had absolutely zero say in getting their name and now has to live with it or spend money to legally change it. ', 'The internet is going to be a rough place for you I think.', "> Is it OK to publicly mock people who wear gigantic ear lob stretching discs, rainbow colored hair, who are obese, who wear unusual clothing, etc.? Is it OK to mock people for being different in some small way?\n\nBut they're *not* mocking the kid. They're mocking the *mother* who gave her kid a stupid name. Also almost all of those examples you gave are simply cosmetic- something someone could change on a whim. This kid is stuck with this name until, at the earliest, 18- when she might file for a legal name change. \n\nOn every level your complaints fall the hell apart. ", "I would not be surprised if the kid didn't change it when she hits 18.", 'Hopefully she has a normal middle name that she can go by. Or legally change her name.', 'Too soon.', 'Now listen here you little shit', "I'm not saying he was right. I'm saying there's not a lot one can do with that information. It's the MOM that started crying and handing over pictures of herself and her daughter. She's the one that continually makes this a problem and now it's gone from what's likely a few people seeing this pass to EVERYONE seeing it. Congratulations. She played herself. ", "In fairness, the original pic only showed part of the boarding pass. The faces of the mom and daughter didn't show up until mom posted her story. One was just a name, now it's tied to faces. Who really outed who? \n", 'This happened, except the lady was in the shower. The woman who posted it was prosecuted under revenge porn statutes iirc.', 'Question, growing up with a composer for a father I\'ve always known that the name "Dvorak" is pronounced "de-VOR-zhak." Do people referring to the keyboard layout generally pronounce it that way as well?', "Dear God, hopefully not. I don't care that 300 and something people are dumb enough to name their kid the first five letters of the alphabet. IT's a stupid name in part of a stupid trend. And I really shouldn't have to sit down and explain WHY naming your kid ABCDE is a stupid attempt at recognition. \n\nNo one said that the employee was right, but that mom set her kid up for this. ", "No, a realistic one. If she's working with customers those customers are going to have the exact same reaction as the airlines worker. It puts her (and the company through her) at a disadvantage from the start", 'Di-abesituuuus', 'D-I-Uh-Beetus.', 'Ab-City Bitch', 'Abby Normal?', 'Ever seen La-a? Pronounced La-dash-a.', 'There are no winners here', 'No child will ever thank you for naming them Absidy.', 'I went with Ahb-ka-dee.', "Among the names that didn't make it to the final cut for us was Idris.   \n\nOnly one famous actor and lots of old Welsh men in the valleys are called Idris so your child will be the only one  in the school.", "Bruce is a dorks name in real life.  \n\nEDIT With obvious apologies to Bruce's everywhere. My given name is also dorky.", '>I think they may go with Bruce. \n\nBruce has a history of being associated with gay men for some reason. There\'s the whole "Uncle Bruce" thing too.\n\nBut I imagine kids these days wouldn\'t know about that so is probably okay.', '"good, bad... I\'m the man with the gun" ', 'Infection... probably.', 'You mean her bionic holographic projector.', 'ob, or Bo?', 'I may have jumped the gun and not accounted for the red neck trailer trash factor.', 'It’s ok I’m a Breton and we are op as fuck', 'My mother died last week.\n\nDad had died about 20 years ago so the plot and tombstone were already bought.\n\nWhat was left was the coffin, vault, service, digging, burying, putting her death date on the marker, etc.  That came up to a hair under $12k.  Thank god she thought ahead and got an insurance policy through the funeral chapel, it covered everything.  She had also pre-selected almost everything, all we had to do was choose the music and a few minor things.  I cannot imagine having to do that while grieving.', "I don't know about US tax law, but here in oz:  normal investments for kids earning $420+ are counted as their parents income, so you could pay up to 47% tax on it.", "The dash don't be silent!\n\nSo many have claimed they or a friend has actually met a girl called ladasha", 'The Sofa King', 'Butters Stotch and his female alias, Marjorine ', "Liangelo seems to be going by Gelo now. That's right, Gelo Ball. ", "You sure it wasn't IMNAHOL? Sometimes people just go with Asshole so they don't get made fun of.", "Qwerty, now there's a name!", 'Not a chance.', 'The other kids must put him through heil.', 'Exactly just toss it and move on to the normal people. ', 'And just like Jar Jar, he will only exist in the prequel to her life.', 'Those stretchy earlobe things are pretty good for identitying people who have been fired from multiple coffee shops.', 'The internet, the real world... ', 'No, [this is too soon.](https://starecat.com/content/wp-content/uploads/height-of-world-trade-center-graph-by-years.jpg)', 'So your still going to say its the moms fault her daughters ticket was posed to that workers social media?\n\nHow does that work exactly...', "Here's the problem (or at least one of them). An airline employee posting the boarding pass of someone with an obviously unique name is advertising that the homeowner is away and that their house is an easy target for breaking and entering. \n\nThat's a pretty standard safety tip nowadays - don't post your vacation status on social media.\n\nIf that family did have a break-in during their travels, they'd have a pretty strong case against the airline. If I were on a jury, I'd rule in the family's favor.", 'I’ve always heard and said “de-vor-ack”. But I’m not Czech and live in the Midwest US, so that could be totally wrong.', 'Well, my mom googled “Dvorak pronunciation”, and the little lady in her phone pronounces it your way. TIL! Also, the Wikipedia disambiguation page lists “Dvorschák”, so apparently sometimes it’s spelled more phonetically as well.', 'Sure bud, if you say so\n\nStill a dick thing to do', "  Hello, I'm Wilfred Brimley......", '> La-dash-a.\n\nLa-dash-dash-dash-a-period?', 'Obesity is better ', "I used to work with a guy from India called Idris. If there's one I've already met from India, there's possibly a million more!", 'B for Brave, B for Bruce! ', 'I’ll have you know Bruce finished the entire cake and made the Trunchbull look like a fool! He’s a hero!', 'Paul Bruce Dickinson [Lead singer of Iron Maiden]\xa0(born 7 August 1958) is an English singer, songwriter, musician, airline pilot, entrepreneur, author, and broadcaster.\xa0\n\nHis role as a pilot has led to some high-profile flights, which include returning a group of British\xa0RAF\xa0pilots from\xa0Afghanistan\xa0in 2008,\xa0200 UK citizens from\xa0Lebanon during the\xa0Israel/Hezbollah conflict\xa0in 2006,\xa0and 180 stranded holiday makers from\xa0Egypt\xa0following the collapse of\xa0XL Airways UK\xa0in September 2008.\nIn addition, he flew\xa0Rangers F.C.\xa0and\xa0Liverpool F.C.\xa0to away matches in Israel and Italy in 2007 and 2010 respectively.\n\nDickinson\'s interests and non-musical activities include writing, broadcasting, fencing (at which he has competed internationally, placing 7th in Great Britain, and has founded a fencing equipment company under the brand name "Duellist"), beer brewing and aviation. Due to the wide variety of Dickinson\'s pursuits,\xa0Intelligent Life named him as a living example of a\xa0polymath in 2009.\n', 'Incredible Hulk in the comics is Bruce Banner\n\nHowever in the 80s TV show he’s David Banner. There speculation that it was because ppl thought Bruce was too “gayish” http://usatoday30.usatoday.com/life/people/2008-06-16-ferrigno-hulk_N.htm', 'Roberts who go by Bob hate being called Bobert', 'Yep.  I actually have an Uncle Bruce and he much prefers to be called Steve.  ', "Hmmm   didn't know that", 'You have too much faith in the human race to make it that far ', 'Condolences.  Both of my parents have already chosen to go the cremation route.', 'Yeah, I know a kid who used to claim he actually met someone called "Lemonjello" once. Totally full of shit of course.', 'I went to school with a girl named Ladazha.  It was pronounced lah-day-zha, so fairly normal all-in-all.\n\nThis was the 90s in a smaller town, so we had very, very few "weird" names.  Even the black kids had mostly traditional names.', "That's Sofa King We Todd Odd", 'Angelo is more fitting imo.', 'Qwerky Qwerty.', 'He’s going to have to gain a lot of Braun to defend himself. Their teasing will last for Eva.', "Didn't say that. I'm saying she made it into an even bigger deal than it had to be\n\nShe's still named her kid a shitty name probably knowing full well she could bitch about it later and get attention. ", 'Most likely employers are going to think it’s spam if they receive her resume electronically. It’s definitely going to effect her employment opportunities. ', 'Ahha! .... So there are two completely separate routes to the name Idris, Welsh and Arabic.\n\nYour Indian friend could have an Arabic name (was he on Muslim?) Or for reasons unknown he has a Welsh name', '/r/unexpecteddahl', 'It\'s like that Simpsons episode where Homer alleges that the "queers" ruined all the good names like Lance and Bruce.\n\nEdit: [God bless John Waters](https://youtu.be/OSuNzCgWpL4)', "You're thinking of Bruce Jenner...", 'My wife and I are heavily considering that option.', "I told my wife to just toss my corpse in a hole and plant a tree on top of me... It'll probably be cremate and do the same though. Sadly her family's track record for long life spans isn't that great so she might not end up being the one to do it.", 'All well and good, but the spelling wasn\'t "Le-a."  That\'s the joke name\'s spelling.', 'You may want to check out Ask A Mortician on YouTube. She has a few videos where she talks about options for what happens to your body after death. Most of them aren’t discussed because they don’t make a lot of money for the funeral industry. ', "There's a park somewhere that specializes in just this.  You go visit your loved one's spot in the woods (that their body is now a part of) instead of a giant field of headstones.", '“I’m walking!” she exclaimed from a stationary position.', 'For once this was warranted, the woman "claimed" to have a life threatening allergy to the service animal on the plane and demanded it be removed, not her\n\nAirline policy dictated that she was the one to be removed if she claims to suffer from life threatening allergies and has no medical documentation to say she can fly.\n\n\nI\'m gonna assume this is just some entitled lady who didn\'t want the dog on her flight so she claimed to have an allergy (my grandmother does this all the time with food) assuming they would kick the dog and passenger out and threw a shot fit when she was the one who had to go. \n\nFor a life threatening allergy she was pretty alright in those videos while near the dog.', ">“Our policy states that a Customer (without a medical certificate) may be denied boarding if they report a life-threatening allergic reaction and cannot travel safely with an animal on board. Our Flight Crew made repeated attempts to explain the situation to the Customer, however, she refused to deplane and law enforcement became involved,” a Southwest Airlines spokesman said in a statement. \n\nSo what is an airline supposed to do when they can't fly with a certain passenger, and that passenger refuses to leave?  Just cancel the flight and massively inconvenience the other 150 passengers?\n", '"I\'m a professor!" sounds very close to "Do you know who I am?" territory.', ' "She was kind of yelling random things and she knew people were recording."    \n\nIt would be nice if we could verify some of her statments:    \n*  she is a professor   \n*  she is pregnant   \n*  she has a deadly allergy   \n*  dad having surgery the next day   \n\n', 'In medicine (at least where I work) we have a sort of canned response to hearing something that we find extremely medically dubious to the point that it, in the specific circumstances reported, almost certainly could not exist.\n\n"That\'s a fucking case report."\n\nMeaning that this would be so unheard of, that we would be able to publish it in a medical journal. This woman\'s life-threatening allergy to dogs which seems to cause no symptoms when she is exposed to dogs is a fucking case report.', "So she saw an animal, made the claim about life threatening allergies to get the person and their animal removed, was asked instead that she leave the flight (probably to wait for the next one) and she refused and then put on this little show for everyone.  \n\nWouldn't the animal dander still remain after the person and their pet leave?  Wouldn't the life threatening situation remain?  On the one hand she wants everyone to take her allergy as serious as a heart attack, but in the next moment she seemingly doesn't give a shit.\n\nSomething doesn't seem right here.", "Was on a southwest flight this year and someone said they had a cat allergy, and there was a cat on board. They told the flight attendant it was very bad, can't remember if it was life threatening this year or not.\n\nThey take her off and suddenly,her story was that as long as she wasnt scratched she'd be ok. The flight attendant was more than a little annoyed, because they were trying to make her out as the bad guy for removing the passenger.\n", 'This woman was totally milking it. "Get your hands off me I can walk!" As soon as the cop eases up a little and tells Little-Miss-Entitled "WALK!" she just sits there and DOESN\'T WALK. \n\n\nShe might get away with telling her server at Applebees she has an allergic reaction to pet dander but that shits not gonna fly on a commercial airline. Hopefully she learned her lesson.', 'Why the hell is Southwest Apologizing to this self-entitled bitch who lied about having a deadly allergy?', 'SWA: Keep up the good work, and thanks for keeping shitheads like this off of your planes!', "This one is complete bullshit compared to the United incident, and others. If you have a life-threatening pet allergy, you need to notify the airline when you make your reservation, you can't wait till you get on-board and then demand that they remove the pets. Beyond that, it would be illegal, and much worse PR-wise for the airline to ask the person with the service animal to leave. I'm sure if she would have left peacefully they would have put her on a plane without any animals. Then suddenly when they want her to leave her allergy isn't a problem anymore? Pretty sure the airline was duty and legally bound to deplane her and get her the shot she requested.\n\nAlso, who has a life-threatening allergy to anything and doesn't carry an Epipen?! And her dad is having surgery? Is she performing the Surgery? and she is a professor? Why is that relevant? and finally, she's fucking pregnant? This lady is completely full of shit, and Southwest shouldn't have even apologized. It will just encourage more similar behavior from attention seeking a-holes and people hoping to get an easy payday. ", 'so she yells "my dad has a surgery!" then "i\'m a professor! what are you doing?!"\n\nlies on lies on lies', "Maybe don't lie about allergies to get a service animal kicked off a plane.  OR, if you do have an allergy, maybe just be thankful that you are off the plane where all that dander is.", 'But why make your fellow passengers suffer? I don’t get why she was resisting and *forcing herself* to be dragged off the plane. \n\nAt the point where the police are making you get up and leave the plane, obviously that’s the only choice. Why delay the flight even more for every other innocent person that is just trying to leave? Unless your goal is to cause a scene on purpose for a video or money, then WALK THE RIGHT WAY and stop resisting or you’re just going to get hurt. \n\nThis is the only time I’ve ever been on the side of the airline/crew because this is absolutely ridiculous. She thought she could make up some “severe allergies” to get a *service* dog and another one removed or something..? Then when it backfires and they follow their explicit airline rules to ensure her safety by putting her on another flight, she wants to freak out. How stupid! ', "For some reason I don't believe this woman. ", "Yet again, another reason to love flying Southwest. They won't put up with shit from entitled bitches.", 'That point in poker where you keep raising with a bluff hand and your opponent goes all in.\n\nThey gave her plenty of options. This is a legit deplaning.', 'You can tell Southwest is in the right because the other passengers are basically laughing at this woman. You can see a passenger trying not to laugh at 0:49. I bet they clapped when she was removed. ', "Damn. The one time an airline apologizes right away is the time that they really didn't have to. Passenger was entirely in the wrong. ", "Someone wanting attention because of a 'medical condition' didn't realize this time her bullshit wasn't going to play out the way she wanted. SW had no need to apologize to her.", '"Jeez, lady, get off the plane. Make the complaint later" - haha awesome.', 'Really, a good way to get blacklisted from flying anywhere, claiming you have a life threatening allergy, dunno what she was thinking it was gonna happen "Hey I can die for apparent no reason, so, don\'t bother me, mkay?"', 'She seems sorta mentally ill.  Probably not allergic at all, just attention seeking.', 'For all the complaining about dogs, that lady was the real bitch in this situation', "It must be stressful being a police officer at times. Dealing with a crazy who will not comply with orders, while bystanders are yelling random shit and filming with their phones. I can see how a cop might just flip out and drag you off the plane when you're making the situation 100x difficult than it has to be.", 'I’m with southwest on this one!', 'Her privilege got **checked**.', 'So, she wanted a service animal removed because she supposedly has an allergy? Nope. Seems to me like this is just a self-righteous witch looking for her 15 minutes and en-DAO-ment.', 'Well now,  Looks like she really is a professor.  She actually has two fields of study.  Guess what they are.  Go ahead and guess.', 'Maybe they should apologize to the person with the service dog being harassed by a crazy woman demanding they be removed from the plane because she felt entitled to determine who could be on her flight.', 'Lady was in the wrong. Straight up. \nAny word on whether this was a service animal or a "service animal"?', "Southwest should not have apologized. This person should have and should have to pay for inconveniencing other passengers. Why are adults increasingly acting like toddlers when they don't get their way. Shame on her. She needs a time out. ", '"I\'m going to die if I don\'t get off this plane. "\n\nDoesn\'t get what she wants\n\n"I WANT TO STAY ON THE PLANE"', 'The woman was identified in another post about this...she\'s Muslim and Muslims view dogs as filthy vermin.\n\nThats the source of her "life threatening allergy"', "Tell the airline you have life threatening allergies to animals that have priority over you, and they cannot let you stay on for liability reasons. Period. This is like telling an airline you need oxygen to live when they don't allow compressed oxygen (obviously) and then freaking out when they wont let you board anymore. \n\nNext time don't play stupid games and you wont win stupid prizes (I would wager she had no life threatening allergy, or she would have called ahead)", 'Seems odd to me this woman with a "life threatening" allergy did not inform the airlines previous to booking, brought no medication of her own, nor did she have the certificate for them to give her said medication. \n\nShe claims father has surgery she needs to be on that flight but somehow wanted 2 other passengers to be removed for this "allergy." \n\nI mean let\'s be honest southwest isn\'t the creme de la creme of the air. It\'s affordable, low class (Don\'t meant people I mean planes), and with a deathly allergy I wouldn\'t even fly that airline even if there were no dogs on that specific flight because who knows if seats were vacuumed correctly prior to their flight. Dander could have still been on the seats. \n\nI call major bullshit on this woman\'s ailments and quite frankly I\'m glad she was dragged off\n She was being a public nuisance and uncooperative and quite frankly I think she\'s a liar. \n\nNext bitch!', "So if I'm understanding this right, this woman has a serious allergy, got on a plane with 2 dogs, tried to get *them* to leave, didn;'t have any paperwork to back up her claim, then refused to leave even though her life was supposedly in danger.\n\nAnd without even reading the comments, I'm betting people are defending her. Know why they dragged her off? Because everyone else on the plane wanted to get where they were going, and she was preventing that from happening. Can't be around dogs? Don't fly on a plane with dogs. YOU are the one with the issue. It is not up to the rest of the world to accommodate that.", 'The lady is obviously crazy. ', 'Southwest is in the right here imo.\n\nI like Southwest. Their motto is "We know that this is just a giant flying bus but we\'re going to be nice about it at least"', "The woman is Anila Daulatzai, a professor of Islamic Studies.  Take a random guess what her 'allergy' to dogs was.  ", "I'm fine with this.  Sounds like an entitle woman who claimed life threatening allegory when it was more likely she has what most allergic people have which is discomfort that can be alleviated with over the counter meds.\n\nBut because she said life threatening the flight crew has to take her literally and she has to get off because they can't have her stop breathing while in flight.\n\nOnce she realized her mistake she begged to stay but it was too late.", "Seems like it was on the woman\n\nThe difference here from the United issue is that Southwest apologized immediately, regardless of fault\n\nGotta love Southwest, only american airline where I don't feel like cattle", "If I was deathly allergic to pets and there were two dogs on board, I would have hurried off the plane.  Because she didn't want to get off the plane I question her deathly pet allergy.", 'This is policy. She had to prove her allergy to the airline. I am willing to believe she would be given the next possible flight. The choices are \nPerson A with full paper work for a service dog\nPerson B with no paper work possibly making a lie about an allergy that may not exist or is only minor.', "She's got the crazy eyes. I should probably date her.", "Bitch.\n\nI'm not talking about the dog.", "I don't see anyone being on her side, the dog people played by the rules, and I am if she was going to expect the dogs to somehow not be on her plane, she should have had a doctors letter.  Don't tell her about the Gamma rays...", 'What a ditz. This is why I drive. ', "Huh, was expecting another United. Gland this wasn't the case. ", 'Fast forward 2 years....\nMost per owners will have Emotional Support Animal certificates so they can bring their pets on board an airplane and other places like national parks and museums\n\nMost people who hate to be around animals will have certificates from their doctors saying they cannot be around animals.\n', 'Does anyone have a life-threatening allergy to dogs that occurs just by being in the same room? Is that something that even exists?', "Hahahaha, Southwest Airlines is not at fault, that bitch lied about the allergy and couldn't produce any proof. So still, United Airlines sucks when it comes to treating customers.", "It's sad to me that the article is overtly drawing comparisons to the Dr. Dao situation from a few months ago.  Aside from the fact that someone was removed from a plane while refusing to get off there is no comparison. \n\n", "She's just trying to get a payout.", 'Make way for the Professor! ', 'I hope she got arrested or committed.', 'Just another asshat thinking thy own the world.', "This is America, don't fuck with our doggos.", 'They should stock particulate masks for such people. "Here, wear this throughout the entire flight." $30 solution - bam.', '"Sorry about the video, folks! Come fly with us!"', 'I think she was hoping for mor headlines like this twisted Cosmo article:\n\n> It’s No Coincidence That the Southwest Passenger Dragged Off a Plane Is a Person of Color', "My only complaint would be that I likely can't pet the service dog the whole flight. ", "I don't think this woman had an allergy.\n\nGoogle her name, look at what she teaches, judge for yourself. ", "Southwest's takeaway from this incident will be: in cases like this the entire plane will be de-boarded before LEA comes on to remove the problem passenger.  No more damaging videos, but hundreds will be inconvenienced.  ", 'Did they apologize because the video showed that, or because they did that?', 'Is there really a life threatening pet allergy?  If you are allergic to a dog, can you really die from it?', 'woah is that a real picture?????', 'Oh Christ, here we go again', "Don't apologize. She deserved it. ", "And now she's taking legal action  \nhttp://abcnews.go.com/amp/US/woman-dragged-off-southwest-plane-blames-profiling-brown/story?id=50291389\n", "I call BULLSHIT. No one has a life-threatening allergy to dogs, and if you did, you would have figured out a way to deal with it as part of daily life by now. A dog or two on a flight aren't gonna give everybody in the cabin an allergic reaction. She could have just moved to a different seat if she was worried about itchy eyes or a runny nose.", "Watching this video reminds me of when I used to have to travel by air more commonly.  I haven't been on an airplane since 2014, and the level of douchiness has increased 10 fold since then.  ", "We're sorry..... people saw that video. ", '“Geez, lady. Get off the plane. Make the complaint later.”\n\nprobably THE most american thing that can be said. FUCK YOU cuz im and my time is more important. lol', 'They need to put a damper on these service animal claims. Some are just "emotional support" animals which can literally be any animal. I don\'t have a problem with dogs, but the person paying and sneezing should be allowed over the dog that doesn\'t pay. ', 'On one hand, from the ladies non-compliance she deserved to be removed from the plane.  But on the other hand, I am concerned that animals have greater rights to ride in the plane than a person does.  \n', 'Sure are a lot more service dogs these days.  A couple of decades ago you only saw them with blind people.', 'Awwwww Southwest? Really? Is there no hope left in this world?', 'So fur parents can bring their puppers on board as service animals with no paper work but an actual human must document an illness? Maybe this is why Trump won. Feel free to down vote. ', '"Sorry someone posted the video online and it went viral"', 'weird all of the sudden it happens on americas favorite circlejerk airline and everyone loves the airlines now all of the sudden and side with the crew, bet if this was a big 3 airline under the same circumstances everyone would be up in arms like with the united deal. isnt this woman going to "see her dad who has surgery tomorrow\'', "How about if you need a dog to fly, you shouldn't be able to fly.", " My kids are allergic to peanuts. I don't travel anywhere without two epipens at hand. I would never expect other people to have life saving medication for me. ", 'I saw this on the news and thought, "OH NO! Southwest why?!" but after reading it I am 100% on their side in this situation.', 'For a second there she thought that being a human vs animal, a human would be given preference. But a bureaucracy showed her that she barked up a wrong tree. When the liability rule was explained to her, I bet it was a big surprise, getting a gist she has gone too far with storytelling. But now she invested already so much, why would she back down, thus, boldly went even further, as the tape shows.', 'And given that behavior, I\'m starting to doubt if she even has a "life-threatening" allergy.  \n\nShe sounds like the person who goes into a restaurant and claims "life-threatening allergies" to all sorts of random (and essential) ingredients, just because she doesn\'t like something or the other (the bane of chefs and servers everywhere).', "I'm almost shocked to see such a reasonable comment at the top of this thread. Southwest did absolutely nothing wrong, maybe the TSA were a little forceful, but this woman was clearly off her meds and needed to be removed.", 'This lady sucks. ', "Yup. Just another sensationalist, click-bait headline to suck us into a story that wasn't what the headline implied.", "You're a pilot. Passengers on your plane board and you discover that you've got (1) a person with life threatening dog allergies, and (2) a person with their pet dog (this was not an ADA service animal), both on your plane.\n\nOnly one of the two passengers can remain on board, you have to kick the other person off. Neither are creating a scene. Both have important events to which they are attempting to travel. Neither wants to get off the plane.\n\nWho do you remove from the plane?", 'Yeah I agree, I have a mild allergy to certain cats, it appears as quick as I get in contact with the fur. If she has a deadly one, the sintoms should appear within momments.', "Exactly. By law, both people with deadly allergies and service dogs have to be accommodated  (I'm looking into one so I've done a lot of research). Now, clearly she isn't that allergic. If she didn't carry her shot and then claimed she wanted to stay on the plane, it's fair to assume that she's either only slightly allergic or just didn't want the dogs there. By law, they cannot ask the person with the service dogs to leave the plane. At that point, the dog dander would have been present anyway so even if they hypothetically removed the dogs, it would still be contaminated and therefore unsafe. \n\nI'm deadly allergic to cinnamon. Full on two epipens,  shit ton of benadryl and inhalers coming out of my ears. We're I to fly, I would alert staff to this when I booked the flight to ensure my safety. I imagine those with nut allergies would do the same. If someone has eaten a cinnamon containing food, I cannot be anywhere near them. Doesn't matter if I don't consume it. It just has to be present as it is an aeroallergen. Dog danger is too. So if she was that allergic, she would have developed anaphylaxis as soon as she got on the plane. And if she was prone to anaphylaxis, she would not go ANYWHERE without her epipen. Trust me. I so much as go to the shop five minutes away and I take them. You have to. \n\nSo it's safe to say that she was just being unnecessarily rude. She was either A) Not allergic, B) Not that allergic, or C) Just didn't like dogs and didn't want them in the plane. \n\nShe deserved to be taken from the aircraft and refused entry on that flight. If you ask me, she shouldn't have been allowed on any other flight for being so cruel to people with GENUINE disabilities. But I'm probably a bit biased, so take of it what you will. ", 'I\'ll bet that she\'s an "incel" who also claims to have food and scent allergies', "#HOW DARE YOU ASSUME THAT THE PILOT IS A MALE!! You're an asshole. ", "yeah, I was laughing a bit over her antics.  At some point police are going to go hands on if you don't comply... i was sort of expecting to see police going hands on too early and too violent - personally didn't see that in this video.", '"I\'m Walken!", Christopher shouted at studio lot guard from beneath the large, dark sunglasses obscuring much of his face. Even these could only block enough of the LA morning sun\'s light to make his hangover barely survivable.', "I'm walkin' here!\nhttps://m.youtube.com/watch?v=QOzAqByMxgA", "A few weeks ago, I was going onto an airplane with a dog as well(this dog wasn't a service animal, it was a comfort animal), and I have major reactions to them (nothing life threatening, just super uncomfortable for me and everyone around me).  I just asked to be moved away from them and they moved me to the back of the plane.  \n\nIt was a pleasant and uneventful flight.", 'The article says she asked Southwest to boot the dogs off the flight.  Southwest obviously refused as that would be a gigantic ADA violation and then the woman refused to get off the plane.  Also sounds like the passengers were pretty pissed at her. ', "It's interesting she kept claiming different things, being pregnant, parents surgery etc. \n\nTo me or probably sounded awful, but she seemed to have deserved it according to crew and passengers", 'And on top of all of that, Southwest still apologized, even though they were in the right.', "Here's what I imagine happened\n\nCustomer: Attendant! There are dogs near me! I have a life threatening allergy to dogs. Take the dogs off the plane!\n\nAttendant: I can't do that, they've paid for the dogs to be here. \n\nCustomer: Well, then you need to give me an injection of Benydryl\n\nAttendant: I can't administer drugs without a certificate proving you have this allergy (I had no idea they could do that, but cool to know)\n\nCustomer: I don't have it with me! (If you have a life threatening allergy to something as common as dogs, I'm surprised you go anywhere without that shit, but especially on a plane where you know that people transport dogs)\n\nAttendant: Then I can't give you the injection, and you need to leave the plane. Blah blah blah regulation states that people with life threatening allergies cannot be on a plane with the thing they are allergic to (a sensible regulation to be sure)\n\nCustomer: I don't want to go!\n\nAttendant: you have to go now\n\nCustomer: I won't go\n\nAttendant: <Calls cops, cue video>", '> For a life threatening allergy she was pretty alright in those videos while near the dog.\n\nIf she genuinely had a life threatening allergy, she would have voluntarily gotten as far the fuck away from the allergen as possible before saying another word, and for something as common as dogs, she would have had her own god damn epipen. \n\nPeople like her make it harder for the genuine folks who legitimately require accommodation. ', "\\>I'm a professor.\n\nWALK\n\n\\>I AM. *stands in place unmoving*\n\n\nI sure hope my child doesn't go to her classes, they won't learn anything.", 'I actually consider this event karma to every pain in the fucking ass who has ever claimed a life threatening food allergy when in fact they just "don\'t like x".  \n\nMakes the whole fucking kitchen stop and scrub down. Just say No Onions, jackass.', "Yeah, it seems like people with life threatening peanut allergies take care to make sure they're not going to be exposed to peanuts before they go somewhere. I would think that the vast majority of people know that animals are allowed on planes and that if you have a life threatening allergy to those animals, you'd really be likely to know, so this woman ought to have contacted the airline in advance to guarantee she'd be on a pet-free flight. There's some wiggle room for poorly managing your health condition when you first find out you have it (that shit is complicated!), but I don't know anyone who has spontaneously developed a life-threatening pet allergy in their adulthood. So either she really has an allergy and has had it for long enough to do a better job managing her health condition than this, or she's making shit up. Neither one should have resulted in two pet owners being ejected from the flight.", "It must have been pretty funny to see the lady's face after she was dragged off. Probably thought to herself that she was treated less than a dog. lol", 'Hahaha talk about a backfire.', "I know women that do this with air fresheners.  Basically if they don't like the smell they're allergic to it all of a sudden.", "Here's the truth: this woman is a professor of woman and Islamic studies. She's Muslim. Muslims find dogs unclean hence, that's why she wanted the dogs removed. https://wsrp.hds.harvard.edu/people/anila-daulatzai\ufeff", '^(cant you just switch seats)', 'Any charges would be dropped. Defense would be she had a allergic reaction which caused her to act this way. ', 'One might ask to change seats. And if you have such severe reactions to such common triggers, maybe take some Claritin when you travel. ', 'I am just saying, but to me it seems like a muslim woman, a woman in whose religion dogs are considered unclean wanted to avoid them at all costs and made up a bunch of lies to get it to happen. ', 'same shit as united case.  person caught up in shitty corporate policy goes apeshit crazy & acts like a child...', 'Well, technically speaking I thought the statue says they can deny *boarding* not remove you once you\'ve boarded.  So they may be in for a technicality lawsuit.\n\nAlso, "I\'m gonna beat you up for your own good" usually doesn\'t fly.  Quick, shove this bitch she needs medical help!', "> I'm gonna assume this is just some entitled lady who didn't want the dog on her flight so she claimed to have an allergy\n\nProbably correct.  But the real issue is that Southwest apparently has a 'If you complain (and we don't think it's legit), we'll call the cops to drag your ass off the plane' policy.", 'But she is still correct.  Pets should have been removed, not humans.\n\nHer ADA rights were violated.  A pet has no ADA purpose on the plane and is merely being transported.  The pet should be stowed in cargo.\n\nPlus we just went over this, law enforcement has no business enforcing corporate policy with force. In cases like this they must deboard the whole plane and then deny boarding to who they want.', 'I say they just inform the other 150 passengers they can\'t move the plane until the lady is off, and that the crew will be exiting the plane for a short period of time to allow the passengers to decide how to proceed. If that didn\'t scare the lady enough to get off the plane, then she deserves whatever her 150 co-passengers decide to do. Call it "jury of your peers".', "Clearly they're supposed to be somewhere else.\n\nIt's a no win situation for the low levels, time to make the evening news, you're fucked regardless.", 'Call the police to remove the person.', 'How about notify you in advance if there’s going to be a potentially smelly, dirty, hairy animal on your flight?', 'Her cries of "what are you doing?" made me think she\'s not all that bright for a professor.', 'Oh I thought she said "I\'m a professional".  I was so confused by that haha.  A professional at not getting off flights? ', 'For me it enters the vast: "why the hell should I care" territory. ', "She works at Harvard Divinity School and teaches on Islam, yeah, she is a prof, but a prof on religion.  Not unique to Islam, but she is just one of those people who thinks she is god's chosen one and thus entitlement. \n", 'Here\'s the thing.. she has now hired a lawyer.... And she and her lawyer have chosen to go public (e.g. actively seeking press coverage) with claims that include racial and religious profiling. \n\nFirst, and as an asside.. she is a "woman of color like my half-Italian wife is a woman of color.. and I\'m a little perplexed about her claim that she was profiled because she\'s a Muslim.. may be it was her hijab..?.. wait.. she wasn\'t wearing one... There is also the issue of Southwest\'s excellent track-record. (Has anyone flown Southwest on the last few decades?.. their flight attendants and ground staff don\'t appear to be very prone to radial prejudice)\n\nIf these accusations prove to be false (which they appear to be), that makes her a bad person; but it is unlikely that there will be any repercussions  However, she has also CHOSEN to repeatedly point to her teaching position, which to puts her in a position where she is paid to educate people about racial and religious profiling.  Lets be clear - profiling happens and prejudice is real.. and there are frequent instances of injustices in this county and others... However, if she does not understand what does or does not fit this definition and/or if she has personal motives that are causing her to distort the truth about her areas of supposed expertise, then she should be removed from her teaching positions.  \n\nI\'m struggling for a good analogy here... This is a little like a firefighter yelling "fire" in the proverbial crowded theater.  Yelling "fire" when their isn\'t one is bad. Yelling "I\'m a firefighter, there is a fire" is worse... and maybe you shouldn\'t be allowed to be a firefighter any more. ', ">I'm a professor!\n\nLet me guess: Gender Studies at Berkeley.", 'make sure to add;\n\n\\*I am walking\n\n\nto the list, I want some independent sources to verify whether or not she in fact, knew how to walk.', 'I bet she has tons of lawsuits right now suing for all sorts of things and was hoping to get one more in the works and cash in on the United incident. It only takes one nervous company "settling" to avoid negative PR to make this kind of crap very profitable. ', "Not just a professor but a [Harvard professor](https://wsrp.hds.harvard.edu/people/anila-daulatzai). It's 6 days late but 1, 2, and 4 are verified even though it sounds like prime /r/thathappened material.", "If she had life threatening allergies, why is she stalling? Once the airline said they couldn't kick the dogs off without proof, she should be running for the door I would think. ", 'What if she was flagged at security checkpoint and they needed to bring a police dog over?  What would her plan be then?', 'My stepmother is highly allergic to pets. She really does break out in hives if she touches one. Last time I saw her I let her sit on the couch my cat sleeps on. She was fine. The mind is a weird thing.', 'or in restaurants:\n\n"I\'m allergic to garlic, can I have the shrimp scampi without garlic?"\n\n".... No."\n\n"Oh.  Well I guess if I just eat it slowly..."', "The key is that allergies aren't respected by people enforcing the ADA, when legally they must be.\n\nAllergies trump animals every time, because people trump animals.", "Doesn't seem like she's capable of learning.", 'Or did something about it while in the terminal, where the dogs also were.', "Especially if you're pregnant.", 'I think that was the first video ever that didn\'t have some woman yelling "OH MY GOD" in it.', '"Sorry for the event that happened." Not "Sorry for how we handled it."\n\nSource: Have worked in the service industry for many years and have apologized for many things that might or might not have been my fault.', 'Best PR move here honestly. ', "I've heard that it has recently become illegal to ask what a service dog is for, to ask if it's actually a service dog or not, or to ask for documentation/proof of it being a service dog. Does this vary state by state or are airlines not subject to those new laws?", "Just curious - do you know if they're required to notify other passengers there's a dog on board?  You'd think you'd see it, but maybe you boarded first and the person with the dog was running late and you weren't paying attention as they came on board.  Do they announce it and give you a chance to leave?\n\nJust curious.", 'In fairness, those things aren\'t mutually exclusive.  I\'m also not sure why a professor would be a profession that ensures you stay on a flight.\n\n"I\'m a librarian, what are you doing!?"', "Or, like anyone with life threatening allergies or conditions, carry medical documentation with you so you can be treated on site when it's available.\n\nThe airline offered to administer a shot of some kind that would have allowed her to travel but she failed to produce any medical documentation that would have authorized them to use it.", 'Any time I see someone try to physically fight police, security, etc, I wonder why they think this is a good idea. Do they think if they are combative enough, they will just be released to go on their merry way?  Unlikely.', 'Because she saw all the outrage over delta dragging the guy off, and figured she would get her way.', '> But why make your fellow passengers suffer? I don’t get why she was resisting and forcing herself to be dragged off the plane. \n\n"Me me me me me.  It\'s all about me."', '> Unless your goal is to cause a scene on purpose for a video or money\n\nMoney. You just nailed it. I would love to see her previous history of filing frivolous lawsuits. When even one company "settles" to avoid bad PR, it makes this very profitable. She has nothing to lose and possibly a lot to gain. So it goes.', 'There are academic studies that describe the prefrontal cortex (logic center of the brain) shutting down when a person is in a high-stress situation like that. \n\nThinking logically would take too long, so you basically go on autopilot and act without thinking in fight-or-flight situations. That\'s why you see dudes in videoes threatening cops who are pointing tasers at them. They aren\'t really "thinking" when they act like this.', "Why resist?  Because people are going to film it and she was yelling different complaints for why she was hurt.  She was pregnant, she had a father who was having surgery AND she was a professor.  Enough people are going to listen to that and feel like she was horrifically slighted by the evil pigs (police).\n\nRather than taking the reasoned approach that she was trespassing at that point (was already deemed necessary to remove from the plane) and that you can't let her do just whatever she wants for hours on end, some will view her as the big victim.", "I can't even understand people that fight cops or the flight crew on an airplane. As soon as they tell you to leave the plane, that's it. Not one person in history has ever successfully argued their way into staying on the plane.", "She's looking for her 15 minutes and money. Period.", 'Every stupid thing you say against her applies to the asian guy too.\n\nIt is laughable that now people outraged over previous cases are now saying it is OK for police to enforce bad corporate policies with deadly force.', "This is the only correct answer. It's the same as the doctor from the United flight. The person brought it upon themselves. ", 'I actually want to give them my business after this incident. ', 'Careful there....The white knights of Reddit will come after you and downvote you into oblivion.....', '>  she should be bounced to the next pet-free flight.\n\nMore like next available rental car, perhaps a long boring drive will give her time to rethink her behaviour.\n', 'I see your allergy and raise you the police.\n\nI see your police and raise you a professor.\n\nI see your professor and raise you a cute service dog.', 'You said it.\n\nThe video that autoplayed for me right after this one was a cop *getting shot*! Asked the guy 100 times to take his hand out of his pocket, asks one more time ("or else I\'m gonna taze you"), hand comes out with a gun. It\'s really no wonder so many of them are so on-edge.', "Why should the airline apologize for stupid people on their flights? If that's how it's going to work, Spirit owes me a lot of apologies. ", 'I bet the flight attendant did. I know I would. Service dogs are for legitimate reasons. That person is already in an uncomfortable spot and this Professor of the Devry Institute I bet is making it worse for them. ', 'lol, lets all pretend it is now ok for police to beat you up and drag you off a plane over corporate policy just because you now agree with the reason!\n\n', 'My real question is why this came up on the plane, instead of the terminal. Where the dogs also were.', 'She also has a grad degree in public health from UCLA. Seems she wrongly figured she knew enough about public health to manipulate the airline.', 'Albuterol inhalers are prescription and asthma is common.  She was wrong for sure, but your not taking asthma as serious as it is.', "It's Southwest. They'll reaccomodate you for free even if you don't have a reason. As long as they have space on the plane to get you to the same location, you can always ask to go on standby for an earlier flight and if you miss your flight you can just get the next one. ", 'Doggie was a good boy (or girl).', 'Well, not everyone can drive all day buddy. (or more than one day)', 'They were actually right in this case, tho', "they did that for PR. TBH, they were fine on this, but there'd be blood in the streets of they didn't apologize regardless.", "What's she like?", ">  No one has a life-threatening allergy to dogs, and if you did, you would have figured out a way to deal with it as part of daily life by now.\n\nI do. My asthma gets pretty bad. But I also bring an inhaler on every flight with me and ask not to be sat by dogs. It's worked so far. ", "Life threatening allergies to dogs ARE extremely rare, especially in adults, but allergies to dogs which can trigger life-threatening allergic asthma are not. I wouldn't necessarily expect this woman or most people to express the semantic difference.", "I also have really bad asthma.  I have to bring my inhaler everywhere and I'll still have really bad reactions to dogs.  They can kill me.  Oh, and moving seats in an airplane can often do very little to help in such an enclosed space especially with all the recycled air, the same reason people get sick more often when they fly.  ", 'Yeah how unreasonable to ask someone to not fight law enforcement officers on an aircraft over your entitled request to kick other passengers off while holding up hundreds of other people. What a jerk.', 'How about not claiming you have a life-threatening allergy you failed to mention and don\'t have any documentation for, demanding everyone who might threaten your allergy now be removed from the plane because you didn\'t take the necessary precautions you should have and how about not refusing to leave the plane where your supposedly deadly reaction can take place because they won\'t give you the prescription injection that you can\'t produce any evidence that you actually need on an aircraft about to go into the sky thousands of feet off the ground away from medical personnel while inconveniencing hundreds of other people and ignoring the police trying to remove you while yelling that you\'re a "PROFESSOR!" which somehow means "do you know who I am!"\n\n\nHow about that? Cunt.', "Even in situations where it's just pets their *owners* have bought a ticket (and paid an additional pet fee) and have just as much right to be on that flight as the person with allergies. ", "I'd love to hear how you could think they take precedence at all. At least on Southwest if you're traveling with a pet, you must pay extra for that pet on top of your ticket price. Support/Service animals are obviously free, but you need to provide proof for a support animal(none are needed for service animals such as seeing eye dogs and such, not allowing them to fly/asking them about a disability is considered discrimination by the DoT.) So in all these cases that person has gone above and beyond to fly with their animal OR needs it to function. So because they've either paid more or NEED the animal according to a doctor, you can think about it like this. Human+Extra pay/needed animal > Human.", ">I am concerned that animals have greater rights to ride in the plane than a person does.\n\nI mean, do you think the pets were traveling alone? Do you think you can bump the pet to the next flight and he'll catch up with his owner in Miami? \n\nIf the woman had gotten her way, it's not just pets that would have gotten kicked off but other paying passengers as well. It sucks if you have a severe allergy, but you can't expect others to always suffer so you're not inconvenienced. \n\nI don't understand your reasoning. ", "What the hell does this story have anything to do with terrorists? This would've been the same story before 9/11", 'Never flown southwest I take it? There\'s no such thing as first class on their flights. All seats are the same and there are no seat assignments. Seats are "first come first serve". Putting pets in a special area would require significant changes to the way they operate their flights.', "It's weird to me that this doesn't specifically mention ADA animals. Why does somebody's pet take precedence over somebody with a disease? I though it would be considered a disability. ", 'If you refuse to follow the orders of flight crew, it is a criminal matter.  They asked her to leave, she refused, then they involved the police.', "She claimed to have a life threatening allergy to the dogs on the plane.  They can't take off with a passenger who is claiming they might die mid air.", "There are federal regulations involved with flying that must be obeyed.  It's more than just a private contract.", 'Trespassing is a crime though.  ', "If your illness is reasonably going to require other people to leave the plane (they'd have to they can't just push the dog out the door and wish it the best of luck) or you're going to need some injection that you failed to take before the flight then yes, you should probably give some kind of notification to the service you're using so they can make adequate preparations for you. Asking that as you're waiting to take off that they all of a sudden throw other passengers off the flight or give you a medication that you don't have and can't show a prescription for before they take you several thousand feet in the air is entirely unreasonable. \n\n\nThis is someone coming in and demanding that everyone modify their plans and behavior around some supposed unprovable condition. The big difference is that the people with the dogs aren't asking anyone else to leave, move or change their plans. ", 'Thanks for the considerate invitation.', 'Thats where your ASSumtion is wrong. All animals need documentation on most US airliners. Service, emotional support, and cabin pets need documentation.  ', 'There\'s also this. Kinda sounds like she was faking being a victim once she saw that no one was on her side.\n\n>"She like kept saying she was pregnant, and then I heard her say her father had surgery and then she said she was a professor and she needed to be in L.A," passenger Julia Rockett, 20, said. "She was kind of yelling random things and she knew people were recording."', 'Do you not see the obvious difference here? Lady has a reported life threatening emergency and asks for crew to administer an epipen and kicking off a seated man because they overbooked a flight and wouldn’t offer compensation that wa sufficient fir one of the hundred or so passengers to take it.', 'Still salty about the worlds reaction to the NfL protests? Racist much?', "You aren't helping any of those problems with these sorts of comments. You just look like a racist.", 'Your shitposting powers are weak, old man.', 'The difference is that your kids actually HAVE the allergy. If you only pretended they were allergic when you wanted to, you might not carry that medicine.\n\nUnless you were an extremely meticulous and dedicated huckster :)', "Clearly you're a smart person who takes into account the idea that the world does not revolve around you and yours unlike this lady. Kudos. ", 'Also this woman claims a deathly galley to dogs. To furthure your point dogs can be found almost everywhere, it makes no sense she wouldn\'t have this medication herself if she has such a deathly allergy to such a common thing.\n\nAlso I\'ve never heard of someone with a "Deathly" allergy to dogs, I\'m not saying it\'s impossible just that I haven\'t heard of someone who could die from a dog allergy.\n\n', 'I have an allergy to an unknown ingredient in extended release Glucophage. The Dr doesnt know what ingredient, and since the allergy clearly gets worse (started as a weeping rash 2 weeks after I took the medication, now if I take it I get hives immediately) the older I get, I now have to carry an epipen with me everywhere. \nI really want to give the girl the benefit of the doubt, but someone with a life-threatening documented allergy would have either an epipen or would know to fly with documentation in case they came in contact with the allergen. Especially with an allergen as common as pet dander. This sounds like the girl self diagnosed and may have wanted attention.  ', "When I flew from the canary islands in January back to UK, I couldn't eat my brunch bar because someone had an allergy to peanuts onboard. I had to buy the expensive in flight food instead :(\n\nSometimes I wonder if they just say that just so I have to buy their food.", 'Deathly allergic? If so, have you considered immunotherapy to reduce the severity of their allergy? You can easily go from anaphylaxis to just a scratchy throat with the right therapy.', 'She doubled down on bullshit. Never double down on bullshit. ', 'I had a woman claim to have a mushroom allergy.  Never heard of that before.  So I tell the chef and the server assigned to that table.  When the order comes in I\'m still there because you can\'t fuck up food allergies in a commercial kitchen.  The chef puts three tables on hold while he sanitizes his area.\n\nLater that night I found her at the bar, and I asked her about the mushroom allergy.  "Oh, I don\'t really have a mushroom allergy.  I just don\'t like mushrooms."  Uh huh.', "It sucks you can't just boot people like that out.  Like the good ol days when some hippie nut job would sit in the smoking section of a restaurant and demand the management make people stop smoking.  Instead of being pussies the cry baby was told to take a hike and don't come back. ", "Well, she's a pregnant professor whose deadly allergic to animals and also her father is having a surgery in LA, you can't argue with that.", "Yeah, I was really relieved by the article once I knew all the facts of the situation. I've built up a really positive impression of Southwest after flying on them fairly often the last few years, and would've been pretty sad if they'd dropped the ball the way some other airlines have in recent, similar stories. ", "She was hoping to get a payoff. This is what happens when the media and reddit circlejerk themselves to death every time some asshole gets belligerent on a plane and gets booted. Now you've got a bunch of idiots like this woman who think they can get a payday by making a scene.", "The person with the allergy, absolutely. The person with the dog did nothing wrong, violated no policies, and would have paid a fee or otherwise notified the carrier that they would have a pet with them.\n\nThe person with the allergies knew they had allergies, and could have taken precautions to mitigate risks - they could have brought medication, brought documentation in order to receive medication from the airline, or requested to be on a flight where there would be no animals on board. If we are in the situation where somebody is going to have to be removed, they did none of these things. That's on them; they're the one with the problem, they're the one who had opportunities to avoid the situation and failed.\n\nIf dogs are allowed, and somebody brings a dog - breaking no rules - they should not have to suffer for somebody else's poor planning.\n\nMoreover, on a subtler point but still valid if you're in the pilot's shoes and weighing liability instead of justice - if the allergy is *that* serious, then the plane is already contaminated and dangerous. The allergic passenger could well still have a reaction even if the dog were removed. The only way to be really safe is for them to pre-arrange to be on a 'clean' flight, or to have medication - either their own, or necessary documents to be treated by the airline staff. Since they dropped the ball on all those things, the only really safe thing for the captain to do is remove the allergic passenger.", 'There were two animals on the plane, a pet and a service animal. ', "I mean, you sounded like a dick while trying to make a joke, but you're totally correct in that it could have been a female pilot. ", 'I was as well, but they did a pretty good job of trying to get her to comply not violently at first. Obviously once she started to basically hold onto a seat the cop started manhandling her, but I’d say the situation required it at that point. ', 'You done fucked up, this article could have been about you. You could have been internet famous!!', "I've had the opposite for when I flew with my dog (he wasn't trained as a service but I had a Rx for him for anxiety) everyone wanted to pet the bastard and tell me how beautiful he was\n\nIt was kinda fun to be honest ", 'Dummy, you could have had your fifteen minutes of fame just by being a dick! Way to drop the ball!\n\n\n\n\n\n/s if necessary. ', 'I was that dog. AMA.', "If you were so allergic to dogs that you couldn't have remained on the plane with the dogs still on board, what would you have done?\n\nI've wondered about this situation quite a bit. I support the right of individuals with special needs to bring their service animals in public, but I feel that their right to bring their animals with them ends where it puts other people's health in danger. ", 'What happens when you get around dogs? Nervous flatulence?', "Well if you have a life threatening allergy there's going to be dander everywhere after the dogs were on there anyway.", "It would be an ADA violation if they were guide dogs/service dogs. One of the dogs was just a pet and the other appears to be a comfort animal, which isn't covered by ADA", 'The ADA has no rules about emotional support dogs. These are not service dogs. ', '> Southwest obviously refused as that would be a gigantic ADA violation\n\nIs it a violation to require that animals be put in cargo?\n', 'Not sure interesting is the word I would use. crazy maybe', 'After United they were probably shitting themselves.  The story can go around the world a few times before everybody realises that she was lying the whole time.  At which point the story gets dropped and the damage is done.', "That's an interesting comparision. Because peanut allergies have caused whole reforms in the food industry and groceries. Everything that even touches anything that touches a peanut, has to be identified.\n\nI would say our society values dogs > peanuts > people", 'Funny?  Pregnant, highly allergic, her father facing surgery and now being dragged off a plane?\nYou have a really weird sense of humor and a huge lack of compassion.', "Why would you go up against a dog? Hasn't media shown us that dogs always win. You kill millions of people in a movie and I go huh you kill a dog and the onions getting chopped. ", "I'm a dude.  Lots of strong artificial fragrances make my nose/eyes irritated and sometimes I sneeze.  It's probably not an allergy, but damn I wish the world was a little less scented-up.\n\n(It's also no big deal, though if you are one of those women or men who practically bathe in perfume/cologne I'm probably going to try and avoid you, because it **is** unpleasant).", "Ugh. Or the strong, independent ones who suddenly become completely and admittedly weak and incompetent the second they don't want to do something themselves.", '> Pets should have been removed\n\na service dog is not a pet. \n\nin my country it is deemed part of the person. i would imagine this is true everywhere.\n\n', "What about the person with the service dog's ADA rights?  You're still removing a person who has rights to their service animal.  She should have cooperated with the crew instead of throwing a fit.  This is very different than the United incident.  Deboarding the whole plane is ridiculous.  Law enforcement is definitely needed for air travel when people's safety is involved and this incident is a safety issue.  ", 'Read the article. One of the "pets" was a service animal. ', "Wouldn't they both be covered?", 'Why do you keep deleting your post then reposting it? l0l', "It's a little different.  I think the guy in the united case had a more legitimate grievance.", "The United guy where they busted his face up ripping him out of his seat because it was extremely important that he wasn't kicked off the plane for no reason? I wouldn't consider this to be the same thing.", 'Well she did say that her life was at risk if she remained on that flight, so the officers were just trying to save her.', 'Its a service animal, the person who has this anim has everyright to be on the plane as the woman. She also should have been able to call her doctor for medical documentation. ', 'Only if she actually has an allergy to the dog.', "They're technically enforcing the law, not corporate policy. Deplaning the entire plane because of one person is just plain silly (no pun intended)", "That isn't it at all.  *She* told the flight crew she had a deadly allergy.  Southwest asked to see her documentation, which they require of *anyone* who says they have a deadly medical condition.  If you tell them you have a heart condition they'll ask to see a letter from your doctor that flying is OK.\n\nShe tells them about her problem.  They ask for proof.  She has none.  The airline now cannot let her fly.  She has disclosed she has a deadly allergy and the airline doesn't want her at 30,000 feet when she has a reaction and they have to emergency land the plane.\n\nIf she had the allergy she should have had her paperwork and medication.\n\nIf not, she needed to exit the plane.", "This wasn't a complaint. It was a hissy fit which made it so the plane couldn't take off. If I'm on my way somewhere and some shithead is throwing an adult temper tantrum, I want their ass removed with whatever force is necessary.", "It's not the pet's fault (or it's owner's) that another passenger has an allergy. That responsibility is on the allergic person. Most airlines allow pets as a regular fare.\n\nAlso, you *never* stow pets in cargo, you kidding me? It's dangerous and deafeningly loud in the hold. Airlines don't allow that.", 'ARe you the one who keeps deleting his comments?', 'Service Dogs are recognized in ADA Title II & III. So which ADA takes precedent? The service dog owner that likely had proper paperwork or the person claiming an allergy she could not show documentation for?\n\n', "FYI - not all planes are equipped to handle live animals within the cargo area. They're not always temperature regulated and some aircraft simply will not allow it. So it is not as easy as you make it out be. The people with the animals bought their tickets just like she did and in fact, paid extra because of the animal.", "There were two pets in the article one was a service animal the other was a pet being flown. Their policy states that if they have a life-threatening allergy to pets aboard a plane with pets the person with the allergy is to be removed and placed on a plane with no pets. \n\nIf they removed the person with the dog THEIR ADA rights would have been much more violated. As well she REFUSED to move. \n\nAs well SW said they didn't appreciate law enforcement taking over and personally contacted the woman. ", '"I\'ll prove I\'m right by just repeating the same thing over and over"', "You have posted this at least six times now and no one agrees with you.\n\nIt's obvious now you are trolling or just so dense that if you actually believe the shit you spout I feel sorry for anyone related to you. Cause you probably don't structure your arguments in real life well either.", 'Stop posting this dumbass', 'All I can picture now is her magically crowdsurfing the entire length of the plane. ', 'Sky Law!', "LOL, I'll get her off that flight real quick. Someone help me with the emergency exit door now and a good swift boot in her ass! ", 'Take it easy, "The Joker"', 'Fun story along those lines, we were flying JetBlue out of New York and right before we pulled out of the terminal this woman just started to cause trouble. She was obviously inebriated and wasn’t listening to flight attendants’ instructions. So naturally they announced that we all had to get off the plane. Everyone grumbled and groaned and started to get their things. The lady was now content that EVERYONE was miserable instead of just her so she proudly swaggered off the plane. The moment she was out, they pulled the door shut and told everyone to return to their seats. Applause broke out and high fives were given freely. ', 'How about if you have a deathly allergy you check before you board a public transportation service that may have animals on it. ', 'Only if they also notify you if a screaming, snotty, bratty child will be on your flight too', "The airline can't know in advance that a dog will be on the plane. If a blind person buys a ticket and just shows up with their dog without notification, they will still let them board. The airline will likely get sued if they don't let them board. But if you have a deadly allergy and tell the airline in advance, they will probably change your flight or the blind person's flight, depending on who shows up first.", "A good response would've been 'Take an educated guess.'", "She's a professor of Victimhood and Social Justice Studies at Evergreen", 'a Professor of Underwater Basket Weaving', 'Ahahaha. That\'s especially funny because in this context "I\'m a professional" could be taken as "I\'m a con artist"', 'Some people use ANY chance to throw their politics into a post...', '/r/iamverysmart', "I too have above average intelligence because I didn't not vote for trump. DAE smarter than everyone else?", 'Not to mention no epinephrine needle. You\'d think to carry one around with you at all times if you had a "deadly allergy" to pets. ', "I'm not trying to defend this lady.  But I don't think you have asthma, you don't need to be running from the door, you just need to not be trapped in an enclosed space with an animal for long periods of time.", 'Might be a hypoallergenic cat.  Is it one of [these breeds](http://healthypets.mercola.com/sites/healthypets/archive/2015/08/21/10-hypoallergenic-cat-breeds.aspx)?\n\n', 'What kind of shitty restaurants do you work in?', "I'm familiar with allergies (have a peanut one amongst others) and I agree people trump animals (or at least they should) but in this case, wouldn't the person with the service animal also have ADA protection?", "They did respect them, they lined her up on a subsequent flight so the allergies wouldn't be a problem.", "Think it through, though: If the cat is on the plane, obviously somebody didn't smuggle it in. The crew are aware it's there, and they're not doing anything about it. *It's allowed*. And the cat isn't all by itself; it's with *a person*. They can't just take the cat off and leave it at the gate while they fly away; they'd have to get off, too. The cat, and more importantly, the person with the cat, is doing nothing wrong. They're not the ones with the problem. \n\nThere's just no grounds, either through objective reasoning or subjective sense of fairness, for expecting somebody else to be massively inconvenienced because you failed to properly plan for a situation which you alone could have foreseen and taken steps to avoid or mitigate. \n\nIf you found yourself in that situation and would actually ask for the cat to be removed, you're the one who's in the wrong, and you're kind of being an entitled asshole for even thinking that it might be a reasonable request to make of the crew and the passenger with the pet / service animal. I could see how you might *wish* for the animal to not be there so you wouldn't have to suffer, but that's an entirely different thing from actually requesting or demanding that it be done.", "What about the people who own the pets? They don't get consideration? You realize the pet isn't buying the ticket, yes?", "Well, service animals are essential to their people, so what about those people? The airline was willing to accommodate all humans by providing treatment for the allergic one, if she provided medical documentation -- but the woman had none (because she's full of shit).", 'So what? The pet owner gets booted instead? That hardly seems right. ', "It's a business. There are more people flying with animals than there are people with life-threatening animal allergies. It would be foolish to cater to the latter at the expense of the former.", 'But not service animals. ', 'Apparently the other passengers were pissed at her for not leaving the plane. ', 'Hence the reason cops tend not to listen to the "I\'m not resisting" \n\nI\'ve done a fair few hands on takedowns over the years.  It\'s amazing the shit people will yell once the talking is over and the restraint starts.  Everything from "I\'m not resisting" to "Ok Ok I\'m done!"\n\nTalking time is over, we tried that, now you get treated like a child because adult reasoning clearly doesn\'t work.', 'I get that this lady was very in the wrong but to be fair, I would also be unable to walk with two very strong arms clamped around my chest.  What was she supposed to do, piggyback him?', 'Actually there are several silent films which auspiciously lack women yelling "OH MY GOD". The times they are a changin\'...', "Also good from a legal standpoint. You can't use 'regret the incident', etc, the same way you can use 'apologize for our mistake', etc, in court.\n\nThe only time anyone should be offering a stone-cold, honest 'mea culpa' apology with a potentially litigious person is in arbitration/mediation, assuming the ground rules agree that an apology can't be used in that, or any other, proceedings.", "I'm... SORRY.... that you feel you need an apology.\n\n...oh my god, I'm my father", "Doesn't matter what color she is. ", "WTF does that have to do with anything?\n\nThat being said, she appears to be partially of Persian? origin that would disqualify her from being white in some peoples' eyes. Many of those same people may also be flying Confederate flags.", "We haven't heard anything - at least I haven't. Not strictly my department but if there's a significant update our contact would let us know. If the dog is well-behaved and mostly looks likes a service dog (vest), most of the airport agents wouldn't even ask. Agents can see what type of pet it is when a passenger checks in, too; there are different codes for Psychiatric Animal, ESA, In-Cabin Pet, and for the former, any paperwork or inquiries before travel go to our 24/7 desk for disabilities and accommodations. There's also a desk like this in most airports and they are available around the clock to deal with any issues, the most common being a paperwork situation. Most major airlines have a 48-hour cutoff to have the paperwork in so everything can be validated. \n", "It's not required. An announcement will not be made normally. Just as most people with in-cabin pets or dogs need to take the initiative to let us know and make sure their animal is cleared to fly, we recommend people with any special situations reach out way before they're going to fly, too, because they might also need documentation. When booking, if you let the person on the phone know hey, I have some bad allergies, they can see how many pets-in-cabin are booked for the flight. They can't reveal or anticipate service animals, however. We can always add notes / SSRs for anything you can think of - passenger needs wheelchair, can't ascend / descend steps, only speaks French / doesn't speak English / special meal / deaf / blind / government worker. Only some of these prompt a specific action of any kind, most are just a heads up for things. There are special ones for say, someone who is getting transported and has to stay on oxygen the whole time, for example, or has zero mobility. They're not common, but they do happen. ", 'indeed. she could have yelled that she\'s a doctor and the same result should have happened. doesn\'t change the fact that she seems like a liar. also apparently she yelled that she was pregnant toward the end of this "event" as she was being forced off the plane. what an asshole. ', "Like anyone? I have super bad asthma, but I don't wear a medical bracelet or anything like that.  I know some people wear those things, but I feel like most of us don't.  I just keep my inhaler handy.", 'You remember that one time that person fought through a police man\'s grip and got loose and everyone said "fair enough, you\'re free to go"? That definitely happened once right? /s', '"Woah! I didn\'t realize you had some moves.  I accept defeat and you may continue doing whatever it was I was arresting you for."', "($v$)\n\nThat's a person with dollar signs for eyes, since it's a shitty representation.", "Exactly. And if plane staff tell you to get off, then that's what you do. The plane is NOT going to leave with you on board and you're now ruining everyone else's day too. ", "A lot of people get rich off of the police fucking up, so maybe they're trying for their own payday", "It's either a combination of adrenaline and generic stupidity, or they think people will only remember the police response, and not the provocation.", "of course it's a bad idea. everybody know that. it's about going down meekly or going down fighting. your honor is at stake. are you gonna let yourself be cuffed like some pussy or are you gonna make them sweat. \n\nthe lady in the clip, she missed two maybe three opportunities to kick the cop in the nuts. she dishonored her family, her frat, her gang. people gonna be trash talking her for years", 'Well unless you think they will murder you', "Wasn't that United? But I agree, it seemed like she was overreacting. Southwest did nothing wrong here imo.", 'Probably the origin of the complaint, as well.', "Asian guy just wanted to fly, he didn't pretend to have life-threatening allergies because he didn't like dogs.", '"Deadly Force."  Please.', 'None of it applies to the doctor. That’s insane you’d even try to compare the 2 situations. He didn’t make up a life threatening allergy without providing medical documentation. He was simply sitting there and told the flight was too full and he had to leave. He wasn’t doing anything whatsoever.\n\n*This* woman was trying to get a service dog kicked off of a flight, and then when the airline *followed safety protocol* and tried to put her on another flight, she freaked out. The police don’t make up the airline’s rules, they just help enforce them. If that woman had to come off of the plane for a **very valid and explicit rule meant for her own safety,** then obviously it’s their job to remove her. \n\nWould you rather the person with a legal service dog, who actually has documentation, be kicked off of a flight because of someone’s made up allergies?', "That doctor definitely didn't bring it upon himself. Boarding had ready been completed and they wanted another flights crew to take his seat. Something against the airline's own policy. \nThis was settled a while back.", "I'm glad you've been downvoted so much. More should arrive soon.", 'United: Due to airline policy, by refusing to leave you forced us to call the cops.\n\nPublic: United is the worst! Never flying them again! Worst airline ever!\n\n...\n\nSouthwest: Due to airline policy, by refusing to leave you forced us to call the cops.\n\nPublic: You go Southwest! Kick those jerks off the plane!', 'Man, what kind of pussy shit did you get in to as a kid where someone bear hugging you and walking you forward constituted beating you up? ', '> drag you off a plane over corporate policy just because you now agree with the reason!\n\nYou keep using these words in comments throughout this post.  I do not think you know what they mean.  \n   \nThe plane is private property.  The owners of that property have the right to evict someone.  Once the person is no longer permitted on the property and refuse to leave, the police become involved.  \n  \nLets play it _your way_.  The woman refuses to leave _forever_.  She decides to start living on the plane and sets up camp in the back.  How do they ever remove her?  Are the police _still_ not allowed to drag her off?    \n', 'Let\'s pretend that if people weren\'t huge assholes to the people around them, then the police wouldn\'t have to get forceful with you.\n\n\nYou are in the wrong;\n\na. You\'re right, let me grab my things and we can sort this out amicably\n\nb. Kick and scream and make an absolute asshole of myself, forcing people to "hurt" me because I\'m being an asshole and not getting my way.', 'Actually, disobeying flight crew instructions when in regards to passenger safety is a federal crime.\n\nSo...\nGo on?', 'lol, deleted your previous comment did you?  \n  \n> drag you off a plane over corporate policy just because you now agree with the reason!\n\nYou keep using these words in comments throughout this post.  I do not think you know what they mean.  \n   \nThe plane is private property.  The owners of that property have the right to evict someone.  Once the person is no longer permitted on the property and refuse to leave, the police become involved.  \n  \nLets play it _your way_.  The woman refuses to leave _forever_.  She decides to start living on the plane and sets up camp in the back.  How do they ever remove her?  Are the police _still_ not allowed to drag her off?    \n', 'You don’t say. Thanks for sharing. ', "What difference does *that* make? There is only good viewing, and bad viewing. Right and wrong don't enter into it. :)", "People don't get sick from the recycled airplane air, this has been pretty thoroughly debunked if you google it a bit.  Modern planes have extensive HEPA filters in their air systems.  Sickness tends to spread on planes because of the surfaces you touch and the people who bump into you if you have the aisle seat.  Best way to avoid getting sick, take a window seat, and wipe down everything in your area with those travel Clorox wipes before take-off...tray table, handles, seatbelt, seat, etc.", '>Support/Service animals are obviously free, but you need to provide proof for a support animal(none are needed for service animals such as seeing eye dogs and such, not allowing them to fly/asking them about a disability is considered discrimination by the DoT.)\n\nI am pretty sure the ADA prevents any company from enquiring about a persons disability or asking questions about the service animal.  I personally don’t think it’s onerous to have a registration system and some type of checks and balances, but that’s not the law of the land.', "Its pretty simple reasoning really\n\nhumans > dogs\n\nI like dogs but I don't understand why it is acceptable to kick people off over dogs. \n\n>do you think the pets were traveling alone?\n\nOf course nobody thinks this is the case. But we need to put first preference to humans over animals. That is not a unreasonable thing to ask. If I have a immediate appointment tomorrow and I take the plane today, and get kicked off the plane because of dogs in the plane, then something is very wrong here. \n\n>If the woman had gotten her way, it's not just pets that would have gotten kicked off but other paying passengers as well. It sucks if you have a severe allergy, but you can't expect others to always suffer so you're not inconvenienced. \n\nThis doesn't sound reasonable at all. Like I said, I prefer that airlines show preference to homo sapiens over Canis lupus familiaris. \n\n If you want to take your dog with you, then maybe there should be special non passenger compartment for dogs. \n\n>I don't understand your reasoning. \n\nMe too. You are basically fighting for dog rights here over the right of the human to travel in a plane. ", 'The person with the disability got a service animal to deal with it. The person with the allergy can get a shot to deal with it. ', 'She had no proof.  Tough shit for her', "This isn't a case of the pet taking precedence,  it's a case of someone reporting a life threatening illness/allergy and the airline requiring them to leave the flight unless they could provide medical documentation that they'll be ok if the animal is removed.  In most cases, people that are allergic to animals are allergic to the dander that becomes airborne and covers any surface they touch.  Removing the pet from the plane does not remove the dander it already brought onboard and thus doesn't remove the life threatening situation.  The only way for the airline to safely remove the person from the pet and dander was to remove them from the flight, for they're own liability, because she couldn't prove that her life wouldn't still be in danger with all the dander that was already on the plane.", "Because she had absolutely no proof that was the case, hadn't given the airline any notification before the flight and didn't have the necessary identification that she could be given an injection.\n\n\nThink about it from the airlines point of view. They cant just start throwing people and their animals off flights on some random persons word and they cant administer drugs to a person who is about to go into the air far away from medical assistance where they cant get quick medical assistance who has no documentation that they actually should be taking that drug. \n\n\nTL;DR The dog owners didn't do anything wrong, the woman failed to take the proper steps to prepare for an easily foreseeable situation. It isn't fair to the dog owners to be punished for this woman's error. She needs to leave the flight.", 'Not really. If I have clear written reasonable safety guidelines included in my contract for who and who cannot use my service and someone comes along who doesn\'t fit those guidelines and refuses to leave its trespassing.\n\n\nThink about it this way, If I was a Horse Surgeon and someone came in demanding I treat their pet cat and I told them "I\'m sorry I can\'t do that" and they proceeded to start making a scene in my waiting room, refusing to leave my property and making it so I couldn\'t conduct business what would I do? I\'d call the cops. I could ALSO sue them, but you aren\'t entitled to stay on my property or use my service (in this case the plane and the flight) if you\'re violating the contract (not following medical guidelines).', 'First off, I do believe that there are legitimate reasons for service dogs, dogs for the visually impaired etc. However, the service animal fad has been abused to include iguanas for the anxious, ostriches for the depressed etc. Since no one is allowed to ask about the disability and there is no registration required, it has become an excuse for the fur kid obsessed of this once proud nation to parade their pseudo-child wherever they damn well please. The same crowd that would wilt from a harsh word, bleed internally over a hint of gluten, or explode at a lit cigarette within 10 miles of a public building have no problem shoving their dogs ass in someones face.  ', 'Just trying to help', "No they don't. https://www.faa.gov/travelers/fly_pets/cabin_pets/\n\nCan I be sure that there will be no animals on my flight if an airline does not allow pets in the cabin?\nNo, you can't be sure. The Department of Transportation (DOT) has rules (14 CFR part 382) (PDF) that require airlines to allow passengers to fly with their service animals in the cabin on all U.S. airlines. Service animals are not pets. They are working animals that assist persons with disabilities. There is no limit to the number of service animals that can be on any flight. Service animals do not need any health certificates to travel and they do not need to be confined in a container or cage.", 'From the ADA website...."When it is not obvious what service an animal provides, only limited inquiries are allowed. Staff may ask two questions: (1) is the dog a service animal required because of a disability, and (2) what work or task has the dog been trained to perform. Staff cannot ask about the person’s disability, require medical documentation, require a special identification card or training documentation for the dog, or ask that the dog demonstrate its ability to perform the work or task." ASSk another question?', 'i totally agree, she should have been kicked off, but it happens on southwest and its barely news, point was theres been worse cases of people playing victim (stroller lady on american earlier this year) and its made a huge deal,and everyone supports the "victim", this happens on any other airline under same set of circumstances its outrage, happens on southwest, and the airline is not at fault at all.', 'Shut up. ', 'Munchhausen by proxy syndrome. Peanuts, lately. ', "Nah, if she's gonna go that far, she's too smart to blow all of that money on buying epipens.", 'What would she gain by pretending to have an allergy? Upvotes on Reddit?\n\nEdit: I must not be as enlightened as Reddit because I cannot see it.', 'Nope, more like clearly she\'s not a liar who assumes her "lethal allergy" will trump someone else\'s disability and who, upon learning that it won\'t, suddenly becomes less allergic.', "As a cook, there are plenty of people who will say they have an allergy for attention or to limit their options for eating, but when it comes to 'sir, ma'am, i'm sorry we have no food for X allergy' they'll stay and eat. It makes it incredibly frustrating to deal with those people, when there are people with real allergies. ", "I'll look into it. We were in line for that a few years ago when it was still experimental at Stanford, but weren't picked for the study. At this point we're kinda just used to it. I'm going to check with their allergist later this week. ", "unless you're a president", 'At least one of them was a service animal. Laws require accommodations for service animals.', "> but I am all for giving humans preference over animals. \n\nDo you think the service animal was just hitching a ride on it's own without its owner? ", 'Some airlines let you pay to take your pet in the cabin!', 'Are you flying also out of coolness?', "How else do you get your pet to where ever you need it? Airlines have proven that you can't fly them with cargo. ", ">thinks it's cool to bring their pet on a flight is just awful. \n\nHey, I paid half-again the price of your ticket to bring my pet on this flight.  You can get fucked.", 'With torn pants.', 'Every time you say? Every comment I’ve read here is defending south west. Looks like somebody is just looking to circle jerk themselves to death about circle jerks. ', 'Not true, there was no service animal. It was an emotional support animal, which is not protected under the ADA.', 'And kudos to that dog for being a reasonable dog!', "Thanks!  Not so say I haven't done stupid unreasonable stuff, just glad that none of it has ended up being plastered on the internet,", 'Next time, I will be a dick and scream as they drag me off the plan "User_753, this is for you!"', "next time they should yell how they're pregnant, they're a veteran, they have PTSD, their dad is pregnant, they're the Lindburgh baby, they're DB Cooper, they're allergic to airplanes", "The eternal problem: Service animals are even more adorable than regular animals, but you can't pet them. ", "I don't know if being labeled a dick is the type of internet fame I want.", "More like I have active cold symptoms.  Coughing, blowing noes, eyes watering.  It's  uncomfortable for me, plus when I blow my nose it is loud and obnoxious.", 'You do realize actual service animals are vital to the health and safety of their companions? Like the blind, or dogs that react to seizures, etc.', 'If it were me?  I would of asked for a later flight and just listened to my audio books for a few more hours.  ', "My eyes water and my nose drips mucus for hours, possibly even days, after being near the animals.  It's like dealing with a cold.", 'Honestly, if the flight was so important to her, how hard would it have been to do what the pilot offered, walk off the plane into the tunnel, get this life saving injection, and get back on the plane?  My wife has a life threatening allergy, and if we travel, she has all her documents and medicine.  Having a hard time believing her claims, when a easy solution was offered, she just says "no"?', 'Probably doubly true in an enclosed space with the re-circulated air. ', "Doesn't matter, ADA requirements specifically say allergies are not a valid reason to remove a service animal: https://www.ada.gov/service_animals_2010.htm", 'Years ago, I watched a woman file a similar complaint from the seat in front of me, claiming she had a severe allergy and wanted a dog booted off the flight.  She had no medical documentation to back this complaint up.\n\nA customer representative came on board and asked her this question:\n\n"The person in front of you could own a dog, the person next to you could own a cat, and the person behind you could own a bird.  They could be covered in pet dander.  How were you going to handle that?"\n\nNo answer.\n\n"You\'re starting to sound congested to me."\n\nSuddenly, she didn\'t want to complain about the dog any longer!  She was fine, she just took an antihistamine.  Please close the door and let\'s take off.', "Yep.  You're right.  I wonder if the flight crew was aware of that nuance though.  Either way they can't legally fly with her on the plane unless she gets off the plane and gets the shot or gets medical clearance. ", 'Incorrect. ADA covers comfort animals: https://www.ada.gov/service_animals_2010.htm', "It would be a violation of Southwest policy, they don't fly animals in cargo.", 'Hopefully the judge can let some of the steam out.  Call the doctor, does she really have allergy and is she really pregnant? No? Lying to the police officer and disrupting the plane!!', "They'll calm down by morning when their lawyers had chance to review all the video from this fiasco.  Too many inconsistencies from that woman. she was clearly hamming it up making a mountain out of the molehill simply because she didn't want a dog within sight.", 'Found the lady from the article!', 'I’m burned out on compassion right now.  Everyone has an agenda and is willing to lie to get it, everyone has to show they are more important than you, everyone has to be irate about something, and finally everyone has to protest or boycott something.  I’m burned out man, I’m not saying I don’t care about this lady and her hardships and if true I hope she is ok but to be honest with everyone I’m just blah towards everything right now.', "Pregnant? If I was pregnant the last thing I would do would resist police. \n\nAllergic? If she's deathly allergic how on earth could she stay on the plane regardless? If there was something on a plane I was *deathly* allergic to I'd be *running* off the plane. \n\nNothing about her story makes any sense. ", "I avoid candle aisle in Walmart for this reason.  I don't have allergy but some of the cheap candle makes me gag and gushing water in my eyes.  Like someone dumped a gallon of Eau de Pepe LePew into each one of this tiny $1 votive candles.", "Not a pet in America either. 'No pets allowed' signs don't apply to legitimate service animals ", 'Every service dog is a pet, even more so in a controlled environment where the pet has zero purpose.\n\nThere is no ADA usage for a pet on a plane.  Attendants help you.\n\nPets can go into cargo to accommodate those with allergies.', "> What about the person with the service dog's ADA rights?\n\nZero in this case.  The dog has no function on the plane.  The dog was merely being transported for ADA use at the destination once off the plane.\n\nThe dog could have easily been put into cargo.", "Doesn't matter, under the ADA allergies are protected too.\n\nHumans trump animals 100% of the time.", "There is zero function of a service dog on a plane. It is merely transport where the dog will be used at the destination.  A reasonable accommodation is to put the dog into cargo and everyone is accommodated.\n\nThe ADA basically required stowage of the dog to accommodate another passenger's disability.", "No, the human overrides the animal 100% of the time.\n\nThe person with the animal is free to go without.  There isn't a single disability on earth that absolutely requires an animal to be with you.  A plane is one of them since attendants help you.\n\nThe dog is really only being transported for use at the destination, thus can go cargo.", "Also he didn't go apeshit crazy, he sat in the seat he paid for, demanding no one to be taken off for him, and refused to leave.", 'He was asked to get off in preference of a person... here someone is getting asked to get off in preference of a dog.', "So its a 50-50 right.  Either she *does* need medical help and they aren't treating her as if she needs someone with medical help, or they don't believe her and the removal is unnecessary.", 'The dog was not performing any ADA protected service.  \nThe dog was being transported to the destination for use there. The dog could have easily been moved to cargo.', "The ADA doesn't require proof, so that actually doesn't matter.", 'Nope, the law says they must respect her allergy and accommodate it.\n\nThe animal could have easily been gate checked into cargo for transport.  Everyone would get to fly safely.', '>Southwest asked to see her documentation, which they require of anyone who says they have a deadly medical condition.\n\nWhere are you getting this? I see nothing about it on Southwest\'s site.\n\nActually, they do have a section on \'Animal allergies\' ( https://www.southwest.com/html/customer-service/unique-travel-needs/customers-with-disabilities-pol.html ), in which they say "If a Customer is severely affected by allergies to an animal and notifies us of his/her allergy at the departure gate, we can ensure that the Customer with the allergy is seated as far away from the animal as possible."  \n\nNote there is NO requirement for documentation.\n\n\n', 'TIL that complaining about a \'life threatening allergy\' is just throwing "a hissy fit".  Also, TIL that a plane is incapable of taking off if one passenger is complaining.\n\n> I want their ass removed with whatever force is necessary.\n\nI guess you\'re counting on never being in that position yourself, huh? Ask the flight attendant why you can\'t get a second bag of peanuts?  I want your ass removed with whatever force is necessary.', 'The human takes president over the dog 100% of the time.\n\nThe blind person has alternatives, the human with allergies does not.', 'I love this story.', 'Check where? How?', 'Humans are expected. I got a refund for a 1200 dollar domestic flight because I sat next to someone in 1st with a pissy stinky dog that carried in for every minute of a 4.5 hour red eye. ', 'Was the officer played by Arnold Schwarzenegger?', "No, she lectures on women's studies and islamic studies.  Check her linkedin.", "Where did you see that, I couldn't find it in the article.\n\nIs your comment some kind of reference or something?", 'lol this sub is getting less leftist, i like it', 'Hey fuck Trump am I right? I know this will get downvoted because Reddit is so clearly biased towards him! /s', 'What the fuck is wrong with you?', "Nope, I have asthma.  I am deadly allergic to dogs, but i don't carry any shots with me or anything like that.  Just my inhaler.  I'm not trying to defend this lady at all, just trying to correct a lot of misinformation that I am seeing.", "I don't have asthma. But if the crew is telling you they're not removing the dogs because they need proof, then why would you prolong your time arguing with the crew to the point where they have to have the police come to remove you and you STILL won't go.\n\nThis story is weird. I'm curious to see when (if?) this woman tells her side of the story.", "I have horrible cat allergies.  If I even look at a cat I start sneezing and having watery eyes.  It's not life threatening for me (cats hate that I'm sure) but definitely enough that I'm not going near a cat (which means the terrorists win).  It doesn't take long at all for allergies like that to kick in at least not for me. ", 'People trump animals though when you are using the ADA.', 'False.  The dog was not performing any ADA protected service.\n\nThe dog was being transported to the destination for use there. The dog could have easily been moved to cargo.', 'Additionally, the people with service animals all DO have documentation', 'I liked the "you\'re making it hard on yourself" and the "take a few steps to show them you\'re complying" or to that gist. It\'s nice even the passengers were trying to help her not be a huge asshole.', "The apology is often a bargaining chip as well.\n\nIt can be used as leverage to lower the payout, and also depends upon whether it's public or private.", "They're trolling\n\nEdit: look through their comment history, every comment is about WHITE!! people. ", "If it's bad enough that you think it's likely you could encounter a situation where you are unable to medicate yourself to save your own life, yes.\n", '"Actually I\'m not even mad, I\'m impressed! How\'d you do *that*?"\n~Every police officer ever', "It's a dumb woman, not some Klingon warrior caste.", 'The ADA specifically says you do not need to provide medical proof for accommodation.  Asking for it is a violation.', 'All force is deadly force.  Look at the asian, they almost killed him.', 'LOL, fuck human rights when I personally dislike the person being abused!', "Boarding isn't completed until the gate actually shuts. \n\nAnd United's Contract of Carriage did state at the time that they could deny travel at any point, including after you were on the plane.", '[CoC dated February 2017](https://web.archive.org/web/20170220061529/https://www.united.com/web/en-US/content/contract-of-carriage.aspx#sec21)\n\n>RULE 21 REFUSAL OF TRANSPORT\nUA shall have the right to refuse to transport or **shall have the right to remove from the aircraft at any point, any Passenger for the following reasons**:\n\n>* Breach of Contract of Carriage – Failure by Passenger to comply with the Rules of the Contract of Carriage.\nGovernment Request, Regulations or Security Directives – \n\n>* Whenever such action is necessary to comply with any government regulation, Customs and Border Protection, government or airport security directive of any sort, or any governmental request for emergency transportation in connection with the national defense.\n\n>* Force Majeure **and Other Unforeseeable Conditions** – Whenever such action is necessary or advisable by reason of weather or other conditions beyond UA’s control including, but not limited to, acts of God, force majeure, strikes, civil commotions, embargoes, wars, hostilities, terrorist activities, or disturbances, whether actual, threatened, or reported.\n\n\nHaving unforseen service interruptions that require freeing up 3 seats to position crew for their operating assignment in order to prevent an entire flight cancellation qualifies as an "unforeseeable condition" according to the FAA, the industry, and courts.  \n\nUnited settled because they wanted the case to go away for PR reasons, not because they were actually wrong. The FAA actually came out a few weeks ago and cleared them.', 'United:. Get off the flight for no reason, random person!\n\n--\n\nSouthwest:. Due to your claim of having allergies but no documentation, we have to ask you to leave.  \n\n\nHow are they the same?', 'lol, fuck human rights because I dislike the person being beat!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!', 'If someone is in my house against my wishes and refuses to leave... and is also not trying to commit any additional felonies (fucking Minnesota self defense laws are shit), then the police can drag them right the fuck off. The airline is entitled to the same property rights to which I am.', "> a. You're right, let me grab my things and we can sort this out amicably\n\nNever.  If you are right, you never give up your rights like that.", "lol, so we are now defending being arrested for resisting arrest?\n\nThe gall of some people on here is amazing.  Just because you don't like the woman being beaten up, you no longer give a fuck about basic rights.", "So then all the hatred for United was wrong?  All of this came up before and Reddit was 98% in favor of the passenger.  Now they are 98% in favor of the airline.  Only difference is a policy on allergies vs a policy on flight crews taking priority (you know so they don't delay the next flight or cause a crash because they're sleepy and to support union negotiated agreements.  Very legitimate reasoning for a policy that was in place for decades.  But haters gonna hate.)", "I honestly didn't realize it was possible to miss the point that much. Congratulations, you have moved the bar. \n\n>If I have a immediate appointment tomorrow and I take the plane today, and get kicked off the plane because of dogs in the plane, then something is very wrong here.\n\nThe person travelling with the dog would also have to be kicked off, has as much rights as you, and is just as likely to have an appointment. It's got nothing to do with prioritizing dogs over humans. It has to do with you demanding priority treatment over other humans. FFS.\n\nLet me ask you a question. Let's say somebody has a deadly allergy to your cologne/perfume (or something else about you; use your imagination). By your logic you should be the one kicked off the plane, because humans > cologne, right? \n\n", "So if I had a service animal for my multiple life threatening conditions, they should be allowed to be kicked off and I would be either forced off the plane as well or made to travel without the animal? What would happen if the dog was not there to alert me to an oncoming seizure or anaphylactic reaction? What then? The service animal MUST BE alongside it's handler. If they're on separate parts of the aircraft, it kinda defies the whole point of a service animal and is classed as discrimination, which is a criminal offence against the Americans with disabilities act. \n\nA service animal handler must be permitted to fly. It's the law. They usually have to let the airline know in advance and there's a lot of paperwork. If someone has an allergy, it is the duty of the airline to accommodate both disabilities. Being that the dog is already on the plane, the plane is already 'contaminated' with dog dander. Therefore, kicking the dog (and/or handler) off the plane would achieve nothing. The plane already has dander in it. So unless they wanted to kick everyone off, wash their clothes, have them shower and clean the entirety of the plane VERY thoroughly, the allergic person would still suffer a reaction. \n\nThis woman clearly wasn't acting correctly. If she had a life threatening allergy, she would already have had a reaction. Dog dander is an aeroallergen, so just by being on the aircraft, she would have gone into anaphylaxis. Nobody, and I mean NOBODY with such an extreme allergy would leave the house without an epipen. Or several. Along with benadryl and inhalers. If she was that allergic, she likely wouldn't be able to fly at all, because it's very likely that several passengers owned dogs. Therefore there would be dog dander on their clothes. So if she was truly that allergic, she would either A) have gone into anaphylaxis there and then, or B) told the airline prior to flying. Because you better believe that if I'm going on a flight, I'll alert them to my life threatening allergy to ensure it is not used on the plane. \n\nNow, given that when asked to disembark the plane the lady refused, it is a clear indicator that she was either lying about having an allergy or lying about the severity of said reaction. I'm allergic to dogs. They make me itch about nd come out in a rash. Sometimes I get a bit wheezy. So if I was to get on that plane, I would immediately take my acute antihistamines on top of the regular ones I take every day. I may ask to be seated far away from the dog. This is a reasonable accommodation. But trying to make the dog leave the plane? That goes way too far. \n\nAccording to the law, people with disabilities must be accommodated. Given her supposed extreme allergies, the airline were correct in asking her to step off the plane and arranging to have her fly out on the next flight. This is a reasonable adjustment. If they were to ask the service dog and handler to leave the plane, this would not be a reasonable adjustment, given all the reasoning I have previously laid out (such as the dander still being present and the fact that the handler had followed the rules and alerted the airline to the fact that there would be a service dog on the flight). \n\nThe ADA has a section on service animals. I suggest you read it. The airline followed the law to the letter. If the woman hadn't acted so hysterically, she would have been able to fly. So really, she only has herself to blame for pretending to have a deadly allergy. ", 'I mean overall, not in this specific case.', 'The point is, they still need paperwork.', '[Still wrong](https://www.aa.com/i18n/travel-info/special-assistance/service-animals.jsp) Those guidelines are intended for front facing staff so as not to embarrASS the person at the gate. All animals are documented one way or another. Your animal is not in my computer? You dont fly on my plane. ', 'Ooooh you told them', 'The dog take off of the plane.', 'I waited tables at this restaurant that was known locally for their really delicious crawfish mashed potatoes, and other seafood dishes. A customer orders a dish and asked what sides came with it. I told him "crawfish mashed potatoes and Lima beans." No issue. The food comes out, he takes one bite of the potatoes and immediately starts clearing his throat, gagging, and coughing. I\'m obviously concerned and his wife is all "HE\'S ALLERGIC TO SHELLFISH" and I\'m like "THAT WOULD\'VE BEEN NICE TO KNOW TWENTY MINUTES AGO!" Anyway, I get my manager, who wants to call an ambulance, and suddenly this guy is totally fine 😒', 'my daughter has a SHIT TON of food allergies but the primary ones are gluten, dairy, eggs, and soy. So we\'ll avoid eating out but if we do then we usually call the restaurant ahead of time just to see if there is anything that would cause an allergic reaction. If yes we just don\'t go there, if no then we\'ll have her take a couple bites just in case there is something in there, then give her benadryl and we\'re on our way to the ER. So I don\'t get people who throw a shit fit at a restaurant when they KNOW they have an "allergy". Sorry you gotta deal with people like that but thank you for being understanding.', "I hate people like that. My mother is genuinely allergic to pork. It causes her throat to close up and she chokes. Even eating food that has been cooked where pork has been cooked without cleaning first is a serious issue. When we go to restaurants the first thing she does is to inform the person waiting on us and almost every single time, I can see the disbelief in their eyes. I've had to explain numerous times that no, she isn't lying and no, it isn't some weird religious stuff. She honestly doesn't know the pleasures of bacon because it might kill her.\n\nI know it's from dealing with people who fake stuff like this and I worry that someone is going to do something petty out of disbelief. \n\nWe try to be very careful when choosing where to eat but when traveling it isn't always an option.", '["Pesca-Pescatarian"](https://youtu.be/IC-ZBJ-Kw2E)', 'Ah, it is like people who say they are allergic to gluten and make it a mess for cheff, then order a dessert and when informed it has wheat, reply that it is fine in small amounts. Even though that is not how gluten allergy works. ', 'Can we just have one bloody thread without bringing up your president?', 'You are correct, I had to find it in another article, and was just going based on this article which stated "The airline said that a pet and a service animal were on the flight."', 'And three cheers for this rusty tail gate!', "Don't forget to mention you're a professor and that you're pregnant. ", 'That would be the greatest moment in reddit history!', 'that should be a thing.  groups of redditors all agreeing on some other redditor user name to yell out if one of the group is ever "that guy/lady" on camera.', 'Yes, I know. But should they be allowed to being their service animals to places that jeopardize the health and safety of other people?', 'What if that meant you would miss the event you were flying to attend?', 'ding ding ding, we have a winner', ">how hard would it have been to do what the pilot offered, walk off the plane into the tunnel, get this life saving injection, and get back on the plane?\n\nShe didn't have the proper documentation needed to get the injection.", '> what the pilot offered, walk off the plane into the tunnel, get this life saving injection, and get back on the plane\n\nthat was really, really gracious of the pilot.  who will probably never, ever be hired by United.\n\n', "Why do service animals not come with some kind of documentation or permit or id? Seems like that would make service animals easier for businesses and patients to navigate while eliminating issues with people gaming the system to bring pets places as 'service' animals? So what's the objection to permitting that resulted in the law being written as it is with no permits?", "Not much they can do about dogs without violating ADA.  All they can ask if the dog is a service dog, and let them be if the owner says yes. They can't demand to see proof or anything.  Some dicks abuse this with just plain pet by calling them comfort dog.  I do wish the government would clean up ADA a bit about animals regarding fake comfort pet claim.", "Makes you wonder why she was so keen not to have a comfort dog in sight.  Some people are afraid of dogs but a well behaved comfort dog well away from her shouldn't provoke that kind of reaction.\n\nHer name, ethnicity and religion haven't been released yet.  It's possible that she considered the dog to be unclean for religious reasons.", 'I circle around the perfume store in the mall for the same reason. It gives me a wicked headache', "The service dog may be required to get on and off the plane, you don't know there's no purpose for it on the plane. ", 'The ACAA allows it.', "So if a blind person needs their dog to navigate, and the dog can't go with him, how is he gonna manage when he gets to his destination. Is flight staff going to accompany him for a weeklong trip? ", 'You keep referring to the ADA, but the ADA does not apply to air travel, the ACAA does.\n\nhttp://civilrights.findlaw.com/discrimination/transportation-and-the-americans-with-disabilities-act-ada.html', 'The ACAA covers service animal rights on aircraft. Your statements have no basis in law or in airline policy. ', '>I have no idea what I am talking about and want to look silly!\n\nFTFY\n\n>Individuals with a disability traveling with a Service Dog are to be granted access to air travel with their partner riding in the cabin, free of charge, and any equipment required for the Assistance Dog, such as a crate, food, or other gear can be flown free of charge in the cargo hold as medical equipment.\n\nhttps://www.anythingpawsable.com/traveling-with-a-service-dog-a-complete-step-by-step-guide-updated/', 'Are you just like "Fuck, I started this hole... might as well keep digging"? l0l', "So which is it, will seeing a dog cause her death, does her father have surgery or is she a professor?? All seem totally legit reasons for her behavior. She's clearly an intelligent, rational adult who would never abuse the system for her own narcissism. She's a hero. \n\nPeople who die from seeing a dog should probably have documentation handy and maybe never leave the house.   I know when I see a dog it actually makes me smile uncontrollably, I can't image the horror of that joy actually causing me to die, my god the poor woman. It's actually a miracle she's lived this long...and a professor to boot!! Her parents must be thrilled she survived after the doctors gave her three days to live, ya know cause of the whole i-see-a-cute-dog-and-i-die, thing. \n\nI wanted to read all of your very unique comments but I have a policy where if someone comments more than 50 times in 45 minutes I just write them off as a deluded asshole. I have documentation if you wanna see it. ", "Not every service dog is a pet FYI\n\nAre attendants trained to look for the specific signs of someone's disability? To know how to look for strokes or seizures in people who may have them often but not severely ", 'Just as easy to put the people with allergies in cargo.', 'The dog issue was moot at this point anyway.  She said she had a potentially "life-threatening" condition.  ADA doesn\'t cover air travel, the ACAA does.  She needed to have a medical document at that point saying she could complete the flight because it is up to the airline if they have reasonable doubt that the person can complete the flight safely, without requiring extraordinary medical assistance.  Yes this is open to interpretation but the airline is going to have err on the side maximum risk avoidance by removing her from the plane.  What if she went into anaphylactic shock in the air after she told them about her condition?', 'Yes, IF she had the medical documentation to support her claim. Which she did not have. ', "And the person who has a service animal isn't protected by the ADA? Why should a person AND their animal be removed rather than a single person?", "You obviously haven't spent enough time around humans.", 'Service animals are a service to humans. ', "Not all dogs on planes are service dogs. My parents flew with their dog (she's a pet not a service or comfort dog) last year. If I recall correctly, it cost them $250 round trip and the dog had to be in a carrier that fits under the seat. \n\n", 'The ACAA says they can stay with the owner.', "Let's say your argument is true that human wins over animal 100% of the time. Let's say further that we're going to look at it as an ADA issue. The guy with the service dog is documented as needing a service dog or it wouldn't have been allowed. I'm willing to bet that the lady taken off has no ADA documentation from a doctor. Therefore, the man with the service dog wins. Not the dog, the man with the dog gets the right to keep the dog over the lady.", 'Not saying your wrong, but can you provide a link or source for that?', 'To be fair, United did offer him compensation and was legally within their rights to kick him.  He was an asshole, United was an an asshole and the security guys were assholes.  There were no winners in that situation. ', 'This is the way you deal with people who have "deadly allergies"; after all the pet dander will remain even if the dog gets off.  She\'ll be perfectly safe on the next flight, and anyone who thinks they can just cry "allergy" to get their way will think twice.  Everyone wins!', 'You are glossing over a *couple* of details there', 'I feel like you have absolutely no understanding of anything.', "Passenger: If I stay on this flight without a shot, I might die.\n\nCrew: We cannot administer the shot on the plane, but there is someone right outside who can help you. We will even hold the plane for you.\n\nPassenger: No\n\nCrew: You have to get off the plane\n\nPassenger: Wahhhh!! I'm being oppressed!!\n\n", "Legally, once she tells them that they can't let her fly unless she has a certificate from her doctor saying she can.  So legally they have to get her off the plane or they are liable if she has a health issue. ", 'She didn\'t need treatment at the time of her removal but there was reason to believe that if she remained on the flight that she could end up needing treatment while in the air someplace with none available because of her "life threatening" allergy.  So she had to be removed as a precaution for her own good.  Why is this hard for you to understand? ', 'And then everyone taken off while the passenger cabin is re-cleaned and sterilized in order to prevent the woman from having a deadly allergic reaction to any dog dander while in flight?', "How do you know the dog was providing no service while on the plane? Just one example I can think of on the spot is the dog is providing service to someone with PTSD. The plane could be traumatic for multiple reasons, maybe closed environments, or many people in close proximity or maybe a war vet that doesn't have a great history with planes. \n\nThis is just one ailment, there is a number of others. Service animals aren't just for the blind and handicapped. ", "The hilarious thing is that you're just wrong.  Acting like some expert on the ADA up in here and you don't even realize that it isn't the relevant legislation in regards to service animals on Planes.  The ADA requires public access to all those with service animals, but that legislation only applies to them on the ground.  Airplanes and Airlines have always operated in gray areas of the law because legal definitions often become murky when multiple jurisdictions and air travel are involved.  \n\nIn this case, the relevant legislation is the Air Carrier Access Act which governs specifically how airlines must act in regards to disabled passengers.  The relevant part to this discussion being:\n\n>Carriers shall permit dogs and other service animals used by persons with disabilities to accompany the persons on a flight. See §382.117(a). \n\nOther interesting portions include:\n\n>Carriers shall accept as evidence that an animal is a service animal identifiers such as identification cards, other written documentation, presence of harnesses, tags or the credible verbal assurances of a qualified individual with a disability using the animal. \n\n>Carriers shall permit a service animal to accompany a qualified individual with a disability in any seat in which the person sits, unless the animal obstructs an aisle or other area that must remain unobstructed in order to facilitate an emergency evacuation or to comply with FAA regulations. \n\n>If a service animal cannot be accommodated at the seat location of the qualified individual with a disability whom the animal is accompanying, the carrier shall offer the passenger the opportunity to move with the animal to a seat location in the same class of service, if present on the aircraft, where the animal can be accommodated, as an alternative to requiring that the animal travel in the cargo hold (see §382.117(c)). \n\nSo, they could have asked that the passenger with the service animal be moved to a different section of the airplane, but they cannot simply put the dog into cargo, because that would violate the actually relevant laws in regard to disabled persons on planes.  \n\nAlso, just for fun, since you keep saying the airline can't ask for medical documentation regarding the allergy in order to use the allergy injection:\n\n>(1) You may require a medical certificate for a passenger with a disability --\n\n>(iii) Whose medical condition is such that there is reasonable doubt that the individual can complete the flight safely, without requiring extraordinary medical assistance during the flight.\n\nBeing as she said she could not fly with the animal without having major problems, the airline was well within their rights to request medical documentation regarding the allergy.", '....The first prima facie element of an ADA claim is that the complaining party is disabled as defined under the ADA. You absolutely have to establish that if and when you assert an ADA violation. You\'re probably referring to the steps employers or entities engaged in public services can take to verify an individual\'s disabled status. And it\'s still not a "well we have to take your word for it" scenario, especially with regard to reasonable accommodations. ', '> Where are you getting this?\n\nFrom Southwest:\n\n[ "Our policy states that a customer (without a medical certificate) may be denied boarding if they report a life-threatening allergic reaction and cannot travel safely with an animal onboard."](https://www.cbsnews.com/news/video-shows-woman-being-forcibly-removed-from-southwest-flight/)\n\nUnder SWs medication section:\n\n"Flight Attendants also will not administer a Customer\'s personal supply of medication."\n\nIf you have an allergic reaction on board they won\'t help you.  They\'ll land the plane and call the paramedics and you may by dead by then.  That is why, *if* you choose to tell them, they need to ensure you\'re OK to fly.', '"at the departure gate"\n\nOn the airplane, it\'s a different game.', "She didn't have a life threatening allergy. She lied. As to the force necessary for me to get off a plane? It'll be nonexistent. Because I'm not an idiot, I'll walk off of my own accord the first time I'm asked. Refusing to get off isn't a battle I'm going to win.", "> humans takes precedent  100% of the time.\n\nNot according to the ADA.\n\nI love how you say the blind person has to find an alternative for reliable transportation just so someone with allergies doesn't get the sniffles.\n\nSnowflakes", 'Exactly. The blind person should just drive, no need to inconvenience others allergies by bringing a dog on a plane. Lol you are a moron.', "Call the airline up and inform them you have an allergy and ensure no dogs are going to be on the flight. Surely one call is better than thousands of pointless calls, right? Surely there's nothing wrong with taking personal responsibility for your own health. ", "So he's basically correct", "TRUMP TRUMP TRUMP TRUMP TRUMP TRUMP WHO THE HELL HAS THE AUDACITY TO TALK ABOUT ANYTHING OTHER THAN TRUMP IN THESE TROUBLED TIMES. By the way, have I mentioned I didn't vote for Trump guis?", 'And how does shitting on people who voted for him do anything to counteract that?', "It's not that hard ", 'Living in reality. You are the equivalent of those rednecks under the highway with the "honk to impeach Obama" signs', '> I am deadly allergic to dogs, but i don\'t carry any shots with me or anything like that.\n\nIf you are truly **deathly allergic** to dogs why wouldn\'t you carry something to save you? It isn\'t a pony, dogs are everywhere. Most airports and police forces employ them. \n\nIn this lady\'s case, you are responsible for your own afflictions and she should have alerted the airline any point before, during or after booking. Not the moment she saw dogs on board. Happens with peanut allergies all the time. Sounds like she is one of those people who are "allergic" to dogs when really they just don\'t like them. ', "Do you fly, ever? My feeling is that if you have a life-threatening allergy to something that may be present on a plane, you ought to call ahead and talk it through with the airline. Like, if this were a severe peanut allergy, I'd have expected the woman to call ahead and verify whether they were going to be serving peanuts on the flight. I know it's a bit more complicated with animals since most airlines don't require you check them in ahead of time, but still--this seems like a really big risk to take with your health. So do you fly and, if so, what do you do when you fly to avoid ending up in this situation? I'm not asking as a gotcha; I'm genuinely curious how you navigate this.", 'I\'m going to have to correct you. Asthma =/= allergy, although you can have allergy induced asthma. There\'s a wide range of treatments for allergies, but for deadly "I\'m going to die right now" allergy, an epinephrin shot is the quickest and surest way. Your inhaler definitely helps keep your airway open, but it wouldn\'t suppress your immune system reacting typical of an allergic reaction. \n', 'Then you’re just asking for trouble. Or want to die. ', 'The dog was not performing any ADA protected service.  \nThe dog was being transported to the destination for use there. The dog could have easily been moved to cargo.', 'The dog was not performing any ADA protected service.  \nThe dog was being transported to the destination for use there. The dog could have easily been moved to cargo.', 'What does one have to do with the other?', 'Too soon.', 'Username checks out', 'Lol', "This might actually have a lot of takers. Not because people are concerned about safety, but because they're sick of the shame they feel every time they sit down on the couch to eat pizza and see that treadmill they haven't used in 6 months sitting in the corner, just mocking them.", 'If you wanna know how a child can be injured. \n\nhttps://nypost.com/2021/05/05/peloton-recalls-all-treadmills-after-injuries-death-of-child/\n\nSpoiler: No death or serious injury but still a distressing footage. This can give u a perspective how it can kill a child.', 'Is this just now happening? It feels like forever when I first heard about the issue.', 'They handled this about *the* worst way possible.  They’re ending up with the worst of all outcomes now: looking like an irresponsible company that doesn’t give a shit about child safety while having to do a full recall anyway \n\nWell played', "The reason they're doing this now isn't just the financial and PR hits they've taken. \n\nThe Consumer Product Safety Commission asked the company to do a voluntary recall. Peloton said no way, you can't make us, and basically flipped them the bird. \nAnd they're right, ish. The CPSC can't just force a company to recall the product.... UNLESS the CPSC finds a product flaw at fault and sues the company. Peloton was probably banking on the fact that the CPSC pretty much never actually does that. \n\nSo the CPSC started preparing a lawsuit against Peloton, Peloton went to a senator on the CPSC oversight committee and asked them to make it stop. The senator's staff told Peloton they'd get no help there. \n\nNow Peloton is running scared because the CPSC's lawsuit will identify and publicize the exact part of the product design that poses a risk to consumers, and THAT is a guaranteed way to open your company up to a Shit Ton of liability and personal injury lawsuits. \n\nThat's why they're suddenly bending over backwards to comply in every way possible even though it's going to make them hemorrhage money. If they try to keep fighting the CPSC they're going to be forced into losing money from doing the recalls and stopping sales anyway, plus all that expensive liability uncovered by the lawsuit.", 'I can totally see a pet dying under that thing, curious if they are not disclosing any animal injuries because not required.', 'Where can I buy a formerly recalled $4000 treadmill for $1000? Because I’m interested.', "my stick vacuum auto stops the agitator if it detects resistance or a jam. it won't restart until you turn the vac off. inexcusable that this product doesn't have any safeguard", 'Straight up pets and kids grinder', 'Why the hell would they have an exposed belt on the bottom of it anyways? I get that they were going for a certain look, but I doubt that covering the bottom of the belt would influence that in any way.', 'Peloton really screwed up by not recalling these earlier', 'A perfect case study for business schools...how to screw yourself twice.', "They should have done this immediately. It's been over ~~a month~~ four months since the reports started coming in about the dangers of the design.\n\n$4,600 for a baby killing machine.\n\nedit- 4 months, not 1", "Isn't children getting injured by treadmills very common?  Did peloton do something to make it worse or is it just because they're so big right now so they are getting so much attention?", 'I wish they’d recall the bikes so everyone I know with a peloton stops telling me about their peloton', 'Why is this treadmill more dangerous than any other', "Article doesn't mention what the design flaw is", "I can't believe this company didn't see the problem in the first place!  The fix is simple and would of cost them only a couple bucks!", 'Peloton PR very active in this thread... shame on anyone who shifts blame away from the company with $1B+ in funding who made a money-motivated decision to forego basic safety.', "That's weird. When I said that they should recall all treadmills I was quickly informed by all the victim blamers that parents should just watch their kids more closely. /s", 'Have fun recalling a 135 pound product. I hope everyone saved their assembly instructions and boxes!', 'Are we recalling all Teslas anytime soon due to AP misuse?', 'So lets leave a high powered motorized exercise machine in a room with young children unsupervised, plugged in, and ready to go. These cost so much it should require a passcode to start or something. Even my shitty 150 dollar one has a key. If the parents left it in, shame on them. It’s like leaving a grinder plugged in a play room and blame Makita because little Johnny lost a thumb and the adults weren’t adulting.', 'So all this started with a lady looking deeply concerned while using a Peloton. What did she know?!', "If you are gonna pay 5 grand for a treadmill it should be one that wont kill you. Sure all treadmills are a little dangerous, but from what I understand the space below the tread itself it way too high off the ground and people and things are getting sucked in. I'm surprised it made it out of development with such a glaring potential issue, but then again...money.", "When the company guy defended the machine against recall, that was history's most obvious sell signal. Shorting PTON was the gift of a lifetime.", 'I want to buy one of these recalls at a discount!  I can follow directions, and I promise not to feed kids or pets to the treadmill.\n\nThe only problem with this treadmill is the user and the rediculous price/service contract.', 'I have been saying fuck peloton since day 0', 'Coolest looking treadmill I’ve ever seen. Shame there’s a real price', 'ITT: I learned that everyday Americans are too dumb to use treadmills.', "Unfortunately children dying because of exercise equipment is not a [new thing](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qDbxo8rtOuE).  It's a very real problem that doesn't get enough attention.  All manufacturers should really be designing safer equipment, or properly advertising the dangers of their product.  Even lawn mowers have a hazard sign on them despite how obvious it should be that a rotating blade is dangerous to let children near unattended - and that's not even an item that is generally kept indoors where children will be.\n\nYou can blame the parents all you want, but the reality is that it should be common practice for hazards like this to be properly labeled - and not just placing a small leaflet in the box that nobody is going to read.", 'So this recall is pretty much to stop people doing a George Jetson', 'Over-priced junk. People are buying into the "Peloton Experience". It\'s a treadmill or a bike, with more expensive options than a Porsche.', 'Aren’t all tread mills and exercise equipment potentially hazardous to kids if there is no parental supervision? Maybe recall parents who don’t supervise their children....', 'If my kid sticks a power drill in his mouth and shatters his teeth, is that DeWalts fault?', 'Something tells me they’re going to be hit fairly hard over their “wait and see” approach. This new government doesn’t take kindly to corporations that let their product kill children.', "126, 000 recalled, at about 130 pounds each. I wonder how much the shipping costs alone will be. And about a quarter billion in refunds? I don't know enough about recalls to guess what mitigations are in place. If you counted the drop in stock, how much will this end up costing them? It always seemed like a massively overpriced fad. I wonder if this'll end em.\n*turns out that's the weight of the bike. As somebody has pointed out to me, it's 450 pounds for the treadmill.", 'Yikes... Who wouldn\'t want a full refund on a really expensive piece of exercise equipment?  Either you use it A LOT and want to upgrade, or you don\'t use it at all and regret the purchase.  Hard to imagine anyone thinking their home exercise equipment is "just right" for them.  Plus imagine the shipping costs to get these things back...', "Well, that's nice, but it's like [five months too fucking late.](https://www.businessinsider.com/peloton-tread-customers-report-injury-malfunction-as-early-as-2019-2021-4)", 'Anyone arguing that Peloton is responsible for a child getting sucked under the tread+, should also think gun manufactures are responsible for accidental household shootings.\n\nThe tread is not for children, just like guns are not for children. It’s the responsibility of the parents, not the manufactures. Guns have safeties, and there are gun safes, but still kids get injured with them. It’s a dangerous product. \n\nAre we going to start blaming furniture manufacturers for producing elevated platforms that kids could fall from and break their neck? Or the electric company for when a kid sticks a fork in a socket? How about when a kid sticks their hand in a running sink garbage disposal? \n\nAll I’m saying is the Tread is not marketed to kids. The parents that bring dangerous items into their home, knowing full well they have children, and don’t protect their children from said dangerous item, are at fault.', 'All these people in here saying, "Why do you have treadmills accessible to children," are freaking ridiculous and clearly don\'t have kids. Houses are filled with potentially deadly appliances and chemicals. You cannot just sit in the same room constantly and just stare at your child and watch them (or actively engage them). The whole point of playing with a child is to teach them independent play. \n\nThese treadmills lacked a safety feature that is pretty much standard on most other treadmills and is literally a death trap. There\'s a video on YouTube of a kid getting trapped under one (he lived) and one of a random ball getting sucked under while a woman is on it and it nearly throws her off the thing. There\'s an expectation reasonable safety measures having been taken. \n\nSupervision is necessary as a parent, but I can\'t be with my kids every waking minute.', 'Why does it look like it’s bending', 'They have been a dumpster fire from the start', 'Treadmill being recalled but there are at least 100 more items in the house more dangerous than a treadmill...', 'Honestly, I blame the design team. An industrial designer and engineering team is responsible for studying human factors and providing critical feedback to the issue of safety. They should have done proper research to see why competitors implement safety features and what laws govern them — not to be solely focused on making a cool looking thing.', "I'm kind of surprised how hardline they were on the subject after all the complaints. They seem like such a good company. I guess not?", "I can't stand their commercials. I also bought a generic treadmill for $300 new and it's way better than these overpriced death machines.", 'Well there goes my $2 stock in peloton', "It's about time. It's not like they didnt know about it and chose to ignore it for ages, instead letting people endanger themselves.\n\nSigh.", 'Can they recall that tool of a personal trainer on the telly adverts? Total wanker that one.', 'I dont understand why they would recall this product.  My baby killing device has worked flawlessly since day 1.', "Is there something about Peloton treadmills that make them more dangerous than other types?  I thought Peloton's gimmick was the built-in A/V and streaming group workouts.", 'One of the videos the CPSC is using as "evidence" of the danger shows a young boy getting pinned under it...you can see an older sister playing/walking on the treadmill and the younger boy crawls up and gets pinned underneath with his ball. You can see the treadmill is surrounded by toys and is just in the middle of a free-for-all kids play area. Honestly ridiculous the CPSC is using that as evidence when that negligence is the fault of the parents.', '[removed]', 'Why havent people learned? Stop buying expensive ass equipment that is just going to sit in the corner after a month of using it.', 'My Peleton led me to develop an increased heart rate, perspiration,shortness of breath, and body pain. Absolutely unacceptable', 'And this is why on deoderant it says do not apply to eyes.', 'Seems like Peloton wanted to make a moral high ground decision on this instead of being business-driven or cold-calculating.  How many items are in your house right now that have killed dozens if not thousands of children over the years?  I have literally hundreds: stairs, skateboards, appliances, household chemicals, bathtubs, knives, plastic bags, small choking hazards, tall book cases, rope, windows, doors, cars, buckets with water in them) - the list goes on and on, and none of them will be recalled.', "Peloton: Don't Tread ~~on~~ under me!", 'LOL, all the people in this thread who think having a treadmill/sausage maker in your home is OK', 'Peloton forced into doing the right thing by class action suits', 'I like the design. It looks clean and professional. I hate the ugly bulky treadmills with plastic all around. When are people going to be responsible for their own stupidity and neglect....', "If you get hurt by a fucking treadmill, you probably shouldn't own a fucking treadmill...", 'How the hell does anybody die on a treadmill?', "This is a fucking witch-hunt. I hate peloton for instagram-izing indoor exercise bikes, but this is a fucking joke. If I stab myself in the face with a popsicle stick at the right angle, I might die. Why aren't all popsicles banned? In order to get hurt by a treadmill, you have to try harder than how hard you have to try when stabbing yourself with a popsicle stick to death.\n\n\n\nDare I say that anyone who gets hurt by one of these, deserves it. Keeping that person alive weakens our species. This will never happen to a non-idiot. Ever.", 'You did that, Peloton.', 'How about after reports of being the scam of the century?', 'What about pit bulls? They kill toddlers all the time!', 'How did this design even get approved?  Doesn’t the FCC have to green light it first?', 'Looks like pelaton owners will have more things to talk about.', 'people dying on treadmills?', 'Anyone know why this affects Peloton specifically, and not more brands, like Nordic Track treadmills for example?', 'Turbo mode is too intense', 'Imagine doing this with the vaccine', "They're gonna put a plastic guard on it...", "I hope this ends Peloton's ads. They are ubiquitous and annoying.", 'I can just hear the lady from the commercial saying, “You did that Peleton,”', "They just keep getting in trouble don't they", 'How do you fuck up a treadmill', "Sorry people got hurt, but maybe we won't have to see their stupid ass commercials anymore", "Sorry people got hurt, but maybe we won't have to see their stupid ass commercials anymore", 'sheeeesh id be selling that stock right about now', 'They’re known for bikes not treadmills. Why would you buy a treadmill from a bike company.', "Good.  Screw Peloton.  Those commercials are the most cringeworthy ads I've ever seen and so fucking phony.  Their products are overpriced horseshit, too, and their customer service is god awful.", 'Work in manufacturing for many years.  That belt design is in violation of OHSA.', "I just came here to see how it's possible to die from a treadmill.", 'Who’s dying on a treadmill?🤣', 'Just another example of running away from the problem', "Isnt this the one they were told about this a while ago and claimed that it wasn't true/was user error and that you just have to watch your kids better.", 'Stocks tumbling down, gonna go bankrupt or bought out.', 'I’m tired of the constant adverts', 'What part of the design made this happen again?', 'I don’t have kids or pets... anyway I can buy one of the recalled used ones for $200?', 'RIP Peloton, this will crush them.', 'FYI a used treadmill is a cheap way to get a high end controlled electric motor.', "Didn't the company release a press statement JUST LAST FUCKING WEEK saying it wasn't a problem?", 'Yeah, wonder if I can get them to come get this stupid bike...', "For people, like my girlfriend, who went to spin classes all the time before the pandemic, it's was great purchase. She literally uses it almost every day where as before she would hit a spin class maybe twice a week. For people who were never into spin classes it's probably not going to get them into shape. It's never the equipment/gym it's the motivation and habit.", "That's why mine stays in the basement. Out of site, out of mind. Can't feel shame if I can't see it, lol!", 'I know someone whose wife just up and bought a peloton treadmill. They make middle class wages and have about $200k in debt between them. It costs $4000 for this treadmill.', "Well, it was originally designed as a literal torture device so I can see why they don't want to use it.", 'Where the hell am I supposed to throw my dirty t shirt when it’s gone?', 'Or they are just tired of paying for something you can get at Walmart for 1/10th the price.', "I've seen more people using treadmills that are not plugged in at the curb with a free sign on them, than I have seen someone actually using one in their house!", "There's a name for those people and other who pay so much for a treadmill with a subscription.\n\nPelotudos", 'A refund and a recall are not the same lol', 'That couch is saving lives, though', "I actually enjoyed using my rowing machine but turns out I have scheisse knees and can't do a lot of these types of machines.  A treadmill won't fit in my tiny apartment.  I found out after being in a ton of pain to the point I could barely go up stairs.", 'We have friends who buy lots of the latest and greatest exercise machines…and don’t really use them.\n\nI always (good-naturedly) rib them about clothes hanging space, and when they bought a Bowflex, I bugged them about having too many spots to hang my coat.', 'Have to admit, this is probably lucky af for those who are looking to get a refund in full, if not partial, for a treadmill they promised themselves they would use (but ended up using just shy of 6 weeks). I would be elated.', 'Better that cats nap on them than get sucked under the assembly because we got motivated to lose our covid 29 lbs.', 'Plus, imagine all the pizza they can buy if they get their money back on this bad boy.', 'Before ikea caught on, I had a friend trolling Craigslist for returnable drawers. He made bank for a bit. But at the same time, the dangerous furniture was taken out of circulation so win win.', 'Time to buy the stock. This will go to $300 in 5 years.  \nIgnore the news today and buy the stock for a discount.', "Just hang the pizza off a stick, dangling in front of you whilst you use the treadmill. That's what I'd do. \n\nUsed to eat my Weetabix in the morning whilst using my exercise bike", "How many people do you know that own one? I know zero. For the life of me I can't figure out why this stock is worth what it is.", "I'm keeping mine. I've had it for 3 years. I keep it in a locked room. And I use it almost daily. If I didn't have it, I think I would have been much sicker than I was when I got coronavirus. For me that treadmill seems like a lifesaver, but then I do t leave dangerous tools lying about where kids can play with them.", 'Hanging jackets and sweaters over it is still technically using it.', '*that $6000 treadmill.', 'FUCK THAT 😟 horrifying', 'Goddamn, it looked like that thing was on a fucking mission to eat that kid. I would not recommend anyone with children watch this. I’ve just got a cat, and even the thought of that happening to him is horrifying.', 'Especially the "reverses and tries again" feature. That\'s something you build into an industrial shredder, not a household threadmill. I could understand the reversing, but *automatically starting again, full speed, after the machine detected an obstruction?*', 'This web site (or one of the ads, so it may not happen always to everyone) likely tries to abuse DRM features to track you. Firefox showed me a warning that the site tried to play DRM content. The video worked even without allowing it.', "Honestly it's a bit crazy there are no safety features that a simple  2 axis gyro/accelerometer could solve so it could tell if it was not level and shut off.", "I already read about what happens in the video, and as someone with a young child, I absolutely do not want to see the footage. That sounds horrifying. \n\nGlad to hear the child wasn't killed or seriously injured. The blurb I read elsewhere didn't mention the outcome for the child.", "I don't own any kind of treadmill, so what is it about the Peloton that is more dangerous than others? Like why would this happen with a Peloton but not some random treadmill?", "Not going to see the video, but almost all exercise equipment is very dangerous to children when it's being used and they aren't being watched.\n\nI can just imagine kettlebell manufactures having a recall because some kids head got knocked off.", 'If I was stupid enough to leave my kids unsupervised in a room with a huge treadmill I would never let this video see the light of day. I would be ashamed as a parent.', 'The title says “death of child” and proceeds to only talk about minor injuries...did a child really die from it?', 'I don’t get it. They’re recalling them because bad parenting? Take care of your children, people.', 'Peloton fought back against calls for a recall, so this is them admitting they were wrong and going along with a recall. \n\n*At least one death and dozens of injuries later*', "if you look at the treadmill it was kinda a no brainer that if something got in front of it like a ball or something it could get sucked under because there isn't anything blocking it from going under and getting crushed. \n\nLike this was pretty fucking obvious that they should of never had that treadmill up and open like that. Nearly all treadmills have an enclosed front and less than 2 inches off the ground.\n\nLiteral neglect in design. fire everyone involved in that cheap piece of crap treadmill.", ">Peloton went to a senator on the CPSC oversight committee and asked them to make it stop. The senator's staff told Peloton they'd get no help there.\n\nOf course they tried to politic their way out of it.", 'What makes this more dangerous than any other treadmill, anyway?', "Honestly if you put something on Craigslist long enough you'll find someone too lazy to ship it back", 'Sorry sir but this treadmill is licensed to the previous owner, you must pay a relicense fee of $799 plus $150 monthly subscription to reactivate the treadmill 🤡', "Same, I've been looking for a cheap baby crusher for a while, but refuse to pay those absurd retail prices!", "I have no plans to turn mine back in. Peloton tread is a very useful, if dangerous, machine. I don't think  I'll find anything else that works as well, is safer that doesn't cost significantly more.", '“Peloton adds new fat shaming feature to treadmills; too heavy? It won’t work anymore”\n\nYou can’t win, unfortunately.', 'The motors already have to deal with intense fluctuations in resistance since it has to overcome friction under the feet of the user, before being let go to spin freely. \n\nThe mechanism in your vacuum detects a current spike in the presence of a torque stall, meaning the motor is already starting to burn itself out. \n\nIf you had these treadmill motors running near torque stall, they’d either be constantly shutting down with heavier users or the motors would be constantly burning out. \n\nTired of seeing redditors wave their fist about “inexcusable” design when you don’t really know what it would take to achieve the goal. \n\nIf this company thought they could install a 10 cent computer part to add an extra layer of safety to prevent this recall, they would have.', "Most treadmills I've seen have something you clip onto yourself. If you pull on the cord enough, it yanks out a little plastic key and the treadmill stops immediately. Won't start back up until the key is reinserted.  \n  \nI've always heard Peloton equipment was expensive, but they don't even have a simple safety feature like this?", "Pets and kids shouldn't be using grinder", 'You mess with Kurt, you go in the grinder!', 'Ya maybe pre covid. \n\nIve seen people trying to sell ONE 20lb dumbbell for $100 😂😂', 'Used peloton bikes were going for more than retail used because demand with covid was so high.', 'Lots of treadmills have an expose belt. 30 seconds on Google was enough to find [this one](https://i.imgur.com/eA46mIr.png) and [this one](https://i.imgur.com/XXWkB1G.jpg).', "The belt hangs loose on the bottom. I own one, I can't see any way to enclose the tread that wouldn't impair the way it functions. Also anything that protected the back of the belt would be a risk to entrap clothing or fingers. Like the bottom of an escalater without the interlocking metal bits.", 'How did a baby get on the treadmill', '[4 months, actually.](https://www.businessinsider.com/peloton-tread-customers-report-injury-malfunction-as-early-as-2019-2021-4) First reports of potential injury were in January.', "Hey - That's Designer Status Symbol Baby Killing machine to you, pleb!", "You mean $4600 to find out how irresponsible some parents are ¯\\_(ツ)_/¯\n\nNot like there are warnings everywhere all over the machine and screen saying keep children away or anything ¯\\_(ツ)_/¯\n\nGuess we gotta keep catering to the irresponsible idiots ¯\\_(ツ)_/¯ \n\nthis is why we can't have nice things I guess", 'Back in the early 90s my aunt was watching me and I had two cousins who were In their teens, we were playing on the treadmill they thought it would be hilarious to turn it on at highest speed. I fell burned the fuck out of my face. I was 6, my mom before she died used to bring it up a lot to my aunt, she never forgave her for not keeping constant eyes on us.', "4600 for a baby killing machine? you're paying way to much for baby killing machines, who's your baby killing machine guy?", 'I mean, $4,600 to me seems cheap for a late term abortion with some of these laws.', 'Only 4600? Sign me up for one', 'It\'s your Option #2 mostly. But also a bit of option 1.\n\nThey\'ve gotten spooked into it, partially, but do need to put a safety bar at the back. \n\nThat said, as a person who has spent a lot of time running treadmills at their top speed, I have spent an unusual amount of time musing about treadmill safety\n\nTreadmills *are* needlessly unsafe.\n\nThere\'s no reason for the rear roller or underside to be completely uncovered in a way that can allow this. A bar isn\'t enough, nor is "being low to the ground" \n\nBUT THEY ALL ARE (or nearly all) \n\neven with a bar/cover that prevents a child from being pulled in, the belt is (imagine me dramatically gesturing for this) AN ABSOLUTE NO FINGER ZONE, as that\'s a degloving injury waiting to happen at a minimum, and the smaller the victim, the worse we\'re talking.\n\nI believe an emergency *brake*, needs to be there if something is getting pulled in, stop that belt dead. *Fast* (see "SawStop" table saws). \n\nAnd you need to be able to easily pull that belt in reverse manually. But at least you can prevent a child from being pulled under and crushed. \n\nI don\'t believe it\'s possible to make it safe for kids to be around at all when it\'s running. It\'s a motor vehicle literally spinning its wheels up on jacks.', 'But I made a PR yesterday!', 'Huh, nobody tells me about their Peloton. Which either means the people I know are too poor or too sensible to buy one.', 'The auto stop doesn’t stop when a whole ass person is lodged under it and it is too high off the ground in the back allowing a whole ass person to get sucked under', 'In addition to what others have told you there’s also a piece of plastic on the back of basically every other treadmill on the market that prevents people getting sucked up under it in the first place and this also doesn’t have that', 'At the rear of the deck where the tread slats switch from the top to the bottom, the slats “unlock”. This opens up a gap between them. When they go under the deck, they re-lock. Any object or material that gets pinched in this area as the gap is closing will quickly be sucked under the machine.', "I believe most treadmills have a cover on the bottom or a bar just under the edge of the treadmill to ensure a full body won't get pulled under.  If you start to get pulled in, you would  hit the bar or the edge of the cover.  If your hand or arm get pulled in, you would hopefully have enough leverage to pull them out.\n\nThe exposed bottom of the Peloton treadmills are effectively moving rubber tread which will pull anything that it gets a grip on.  You won't stop when you hit the bar or the cover because there is neither.\n\nInstead you will get continuously pulled untill the treadmill is entirely on top of you.  Since most people place the treadmill facing a wall you will get trapped with the treadmill on top, the floor below, and the treadmill continuously pushing you towards the wall.  The smaller you are the easier it will be to pull you under.", 'Totally exposed back of the tread??? Put some plastic over that and it’s way safer!', 'This brand of treadmill is a slat-tread machine.  Like wrapping a wooden footbridge around a motor.  Pelotons have faster speeds (~14mp) and more available incline than other slat-tread machines.\n\nThe tread is heavy and stable, and does feel better to run on than ‘classic’ mat tread, but the slat/motor assembly are larger.  Pelotons are already huge, so I imagine this informed their choice to not encase the edges/undercarriage.', 'Flaw is parents not paying attention to their children.\n\nEdit: sure they should have put some more safety features in it, but the video I saw was 2 kids playing totally unattended on a giant treadmill. Responsible parenting could have completely avoided it. Multiple layers of safeguards need to be in place and Peloton and parents are both responsible for that. \n\nIf you leave a sharp chef’s knife totally accessible to children and then don’t watch them, should the knife be recalled? A treadmill is not a toy. Parents need to take actions like removing the safety key when they aren’t around.', "Not having giant goddamn red warning signs all around it telling shithead parents to keep toddlers away from it when it's on.", 'It says that the large gap between slats, the high floor clearance, and lack of cover for the bottom caused a child to get pulled under the machine', 'Watch the terrifying ass video and you will see', 'No rear guard, just like half the treadmills out there.', 'Might fuck up the aesthetic .... it has impressively clean lines that elevate among its rivals.', "Not interested in reading that much. Does it just turn on when shit gets near it if it's plugged in? What would the fix have been?", 'I say shame on humanity for being so stupid that a treadmill that already had a key mechanism needs to be recalled because people are just that stupid to leave the key in', 'A $4000+ treadmill that lacks multiple basic safety features is so crazy to me. They still have a statement up on their website denying the accusations', 'I am not PR for Peloton. I do own both the bike and tread though. \n\nThe design of a slat treadmill is different than a belt treadmill. The spaces between the slats have the ability to hook and grab something versus the belt, which will just give you a nasty burn. \n\nThe basic safety feature for all treadmills is having a removable key, which you take out when not in use. Treadmill does not work. \n\nSome people say there should be a rear guard. A rear guard would prevent something from getting sucked under but it would also pose a new danger to the user. Someone slipping or falling off the back could have their foot get caught in-between the guard and tread. The fix for that is attaching your safety key to you cloths so if you fall of the back the key come out and the device stops. \n\nI have never worn the safety key. I am guilty of this as are missions of other people.', "I'm not a peloton employee, I am an owner of one for several years however. I fully plan on keeping mine and continuing to use it. It's a great tool and if used properly is safe.", 'It’s as if they made an ironing board that would collapse if a kid/pet around knee height so much as touched it. OBVIOUSLY nobody in their right mind supports letting kids play with the damn appliance, and yet here the peloton stans are responding to nonexistent strawmen like that', "I'm not a peloton employee, I am an owner of one for several years however. I fully plan on keeping mine and continuing to use it. It's a great tool and if used properly is safe.", 'Is this thread in indoor football field? Because it’s Astroturfed.', 'Yea those comment chains were off-putting. A bunch of people (clearly without kids, or maybe they had dumb kids, I don’t judge) who think bc it has a removable key, it’s unfathomable a child could decipher the difficult puzzle of 1) watching where parents put the key, 2) grabbing the key and turning it on, and 3) playing on it. Oh and that parents who let a child out of their direct (non peripheral) vision for more than 10 seconds should have their children taken away. The kids deserved it QED.', "This recall doesn't make that untrue. I own a peloton tread, have for 3 years. I have 4 small to medium children, a dog, a cat and zero injuries or accidents. I will not be returning my tread. It is a great tool. I will be doing what I have always done, keeping it in a locked room that my kids can't access. I feel really bad for anyone who loses a child though, especially when it is a gruesome, preventable accident.", '[removed]', 'People make mistakes and those mistakes are readily foreseeable by designers and manufacturers. If an industry-standard, relatively inexpensive piece of plastic can prevent those mistakes from leading to children getting sucked under the machine and killed, then the company profiting from the sale of the device should damn well include it. Then only *one* party needs to be careful *one* time - Peloton\'s designers - not who knows how many thousands of people every minute of every day.\n\nThis is like asking why car manufacturers should have to include seat belts or airbags, when people could just fucking drive safely. Statistically, some percentage of consumers *will* make mistakes and accidents are *going* to happen, so knowing that, the manufacturer has a duty to take basic precautions.\n\nRegulators are reminding Peloton of that duty to not endanger human life, which is their function. Litigation will make them pay for their negligence, which is its function. Peloton is protecting itself and its many customers by recalling a device that lacks a basic safety feature because of these sources of accountability. \n\nI have no patience for the "personal responsibility" bullshit, which has always been the mantra of organizations looking to not spend the money they should.\n\nWith who knows how many thousands of treadmills out there, if even one child can be spared a terrifying, painful death by including an industry-standard piece of plastic, then that\'s a no-brainer.', 'It does have a key.', 'The problem with the tread+ is that it doesn’t have a front panel that keeps small children, pets, etc from getting sucked in.', 'One of the videos the CPSC is using as "evidence" of the danger shows a young boy getting pinned under it...you can see an older sister playing/walking on the treadmill and the younger boy crawls up and gets pinned underneath with his ball. You can see the treadmill is surrounded by toys and is just in the middle of a free-for-all kids play area. Honestly ridiculous the CPSC is using that as evidence when that negligence is the fault of the parents.', '> require a passcode to start or something\n\nIt has a key, these negligent parents left it in.', "Stop blaming the parents for negligent lack of engineering controls. Parent's aren't perfect 100% of the time and the people who parent-shame aren't either.\n\nAm I supposed to lock my kid in another part of the house while I use the treadmill? Most running treadmills give a mild abrasion when touched on the back side, this one eats them.", "There is a key, but the parents were lazy and didn't take it out.", 'For some reason my brain went to coffee grinder when you mentioned the word and when you got to the makita punchline I got excited thinking that makita also made kitchen appliances.', 'She was concerned about her pregnancy', "Style!  The look is more important than functionality.  It's the iPhone of treadmills", 'You can make that argument about any recall', "Almost all treadmills I've ever been around qualify as a serious hazard. The slatted ones are worse because they have more traction.\n\nThe bar is still definitely required tho.", "Not just exercise equipment! Cheap furniture has the same issue. Non-mandatory safety recommendations that don't have to be followed and even when they are followed by the producer they often shift responsibility to the consumer. How many people use the wall anchors that come with all the furniture they buy? That's a conscious choice by the producer to sell a product that is less safe than they could make it usually to make it cheaper. Companies knowhow to make safe products... they choose not to.", 'They are 450lbs.....even more yikes.', 'Exactly! Especially considering it seems that you have so long to "decide". Maybe it\'s unethical, but I would probably get another year+ of use and then do the full return.', 'When every product of a particular type on the market has the exact same feature designed for safety except for one and that one that does not have the simple low-cost safety feature starts naming and killing children I think it’s pretty safe to say that the manufacture of that one product without the safety feature is the one fucking up', "Is it really that goddamn hard to keep the machine's key on your keyring or something instead of leaving it in the machine? Is it the car manufacturer's fault if you leave your kid in a running car and they drive it into a pole?", "> I can't be with my kids every waking minute\n\n... said Madeline McAnn's parents", 'This treadmill definitely is a danger and the recall is justified and too late. You are right that houses are full of hazards to children.\n\n\nThat in no way should result in an apathetic approach to child safety and supervision.', 'And yet all of them have basic safety features that make them as safe as possible which were intentionally left off of the peloton', "Trust me, the design team was probably fully aware of the issue. Problem is that the higher ups probably didn't give a shit.", "Didn't feel like reading?", 'Three things. Almost every other treadmill on the market has a simple piece of plastic protecting the rear of the belt and keeping anything from coming into contact with the part of the belt think it’s pulled under the machine. Second this machines belt since much higher off the ground creating more space for a much larger objects to potentially get pulled under, and third the belt emergency stop is so ineffective that even with a full grown adult human on top of the treadmill and something as large as a 18 inch Beachball getting sucked under it the belt continues to spin at full speed', "I've wondered this too, I have a non Peleton treadmill and I'm very certain the same thing would happen on my treadmill that I've seen in the videos.", "Negligence by the parents doesn't erase the negligence of Peloton with regards to the design. When you're designing something, you're supposed to consider common problems that could arise. A child using a piece of exercise equipment that they shouldn't is a pretty common problem, and one you would want to account for when designing.", 'Why does a $4,600 treadmill lack basic safety features found on the cheapest treadmills?', 'Ah yes, one of the instances was a little negligent therefore all of them were.', 'Bad form... the victims are kids and pets; not the rich adults who choose opulence above all else. You don’t pick your parents.', 'Not at all. This is more like how modern toasters have the electrical parts contained inside a housing rather than out in the open where anybody can touch them', "> knives\n\nYou're forgetting the Great Knife Recall of 2009.  It's why we only have sporks now", 'How many of those products have three separate glaring safety issues that have all been addressed by pretty much every other competing product on the market?', 'Yeah those fucking dead kids. Fucking idiots.', "Regulations are written in blood to protect the innocent (children) from the incompetent (Peloton designers, inattentive parents).\n\nThere's a reason every other treadmill has some sort of belt guard.", 'Seatbelts and airbags make my car look so stupid. Ugh', 'Wow, seems like Peloton shills *are* a thing.', 'I try and explain it to you as simply as I can. When a company releases a product with obvious glaring safety issues that have been addressed by basically every other competing product on the market and then claims that there is no problem it’s not a witchhunt. Imagine for a moment that a car manufacturer decided to launch a car without seatbelts and then blamed the people who got injured Stating that they never should’ve gotten into a crash in the first place.', 'Actually I think you’re thinking of golden retrievers', '>  Doesn’t the FCC have to green light it first?\n\nThis has nothing to do with the FCC.', 'Kids and probably pets getting sucked under. The answer is in the article, believe it or not.', 'Three things. Almost every other treadmill on the market has a simple piece of plastic protecting the rear of the belt and keeping anything from coming into contact with the part of the belt think it’s pulled under the machine. Second this machines belt since much higher off the ground creating more space for a much larger objects to potentially get pulled under, and third the belt emergency stop is so ineffective that even with a full grown adult human on top of the treadmill and something as large as a 18 inch Beachball getting sucked under it the belt continues to spin at full speed', 'Three things. Almost every other treadmill on the market has a simple piece of plastic protecting the rear of the belt and keeping anything from coming into contact with the part of the belt think it’s pulled under the machine. Second this machines belt since much higher off the ground creating more space for a much larger objects to potentially get pulled under, and third the belt emergency stop is so ineffective that even with a full grown adult human on top of the treadmill and something as large as a 18 inch Beachball getting sucked under it the belt continues to spin at full speed', 'My question, too. What makes them more dangerous than any other treadmill?', 'that’s all it fucking needed in the first place', 'Or… Just try and stay with me here. One very stupid company that neglected to put on a simple safety piece that’s on every other treadmill on the market', 'Little kids dude.\n\nWtf.', "Yes, it's still on the website:  \n\n[PELOTON REFUTES CONSUMER PRODUCT SAFETY COMMISSION CLAIMS](https://investor.onepeloton.com/news-releases/news-release-details/peloton-refutes-consumer-product-safety-commission-claims)", 'Well ya.... That was their guy that does press releases. Then their lawyers and accountants sat down and added up its a huge fucking problem that their product "eats" pets and babies.', 'Of course... all the insiders need time to sell their stocks.', 'It wasnt a problem for THEM.', 'They are known for arguing against any criticism. Guess that didn’t work to well.', '"Just be careful, sheesh"', 'Imagine giving a shit about a treadmill company', 'Shush.. That was a Different problem. Nothing to see here.', 'They have awesome resale value - if you really do want to sell there’s groups for it on FB.', 'Lol you don’t have a Peloton, you don’t have to lie to internet strangers', 'You interested in selling it?', 'There’s a huge resale market for them if you’re serious about getting rid of it.', 'Dude, just put it on Craigslist. You can probably sell it for more than you paid. People have been on wait lists for months trying to get one.', 'This is me! I love spinning and the peloton is cheaper than the classes. I also need something I can ride whenever, I have small kids. The high price also means I need to ride the thing.', "Personally I love my Peloton tread. It's getting a lot of hate, I'm just happy I can keep using mine. I was afraid they would shut down the service and I find a lot of value in it.", '[removed]', 'Does that include house debt or is that just standard student loan/CC/vehicle loan? Jesus.', 'This is who they are marketed towards they also have a lot of designer fitness sportbras and yoga pants too.', 'I think the torture one was called a treadmill, but mechanically it was more like a stairmaster than a modern treadmill.', 'Because the ones inside people’s houses are inside people’s houses so you can’t see them.', '>Consumers should immediately stop using the recalled Tread+ and contact Peloton for a **FULL REFUND** until November 6, 2022.\n\nhttps://www.cpsc.gov/Recalls/2021/peloton-recalls-tread-plus-treadmills-after-one-child-died-and-more-than-70-incidents\n\nlol', 'Yeah horrifying parenting...', 'Reminds me how we make sausage', 'Treadmill: Hmmmm idk what could be stopping me? I’m a treadmill... meh I think it’s most likely some scrap paper...', 'Totally understandable. I did the opposite since I watched the video so Idk if the article was even describing the case shown in that video lol. Anywho, the toddler got stuck under the treadmill for a brief moment but fortunately managed to break free on his own and walked away (presumably crying). Idk the story of the unfortunate child that was killed. Judging by this video if the child was smaller he definitely could have been stuck under and suffocated.', "It was horrifying but as a parent there was something else equally horrifying. \n\nWhy in the FLYING FUCK are those two kids allowed to play on that treadmill? Safety key should be out and they should've been told not to play on it. By all appearances it looks like the game they are playing is on it latest evolution and they've done this before.", "There's no panel at the back and the treadmill sits just a little bit higher than others, so it's easier for something to get sucked under. A cheap, plastic panel at the back of the machine would stop anything from going underneath but that would ruin the Peloton aesthetics I guess", 'The same news is reported by many other news outlets but I don’t think there footage of that particular case. Even if there is I don’t think they’d release it.', 'JFC you are a special kind of dumb- did you watch the video? Take your eyes off the kids for 2 seconds and they could get sucked under. \n\nJust because having eyes on the child during this exact moment would have prevented this injury, doesn’t mean a treadmill should do that so easily. \n\nTo assume these are bad parents is wrong, could easily happen to great parents. you either dont have children to understand what raising children is like or must have been just the perfect parent if you did manage to have kids. Fuck off', "This comment alone tells me you don't have children.", 'Your getting down voted by a bunch of idiots. I have been hanging around gyms since I was a toddler (mom was a gym rat) and when I was a kid we were NEVER allowed near tread mills because they are dangerous af. If I had kids, I would never let them play around one, and NEVER on a tread mill. \n\nThis video is the same level of thinking that people who get shot by their kids from the backseat are working on. Sadly the kid was hurt for the idiocy of the parents.', 'It’s not a treadmill issue it’s a parental issue. Don’t let your kids play around on a machine that could hurt them.', "willin to bet ya that they denied it and pushed it back in an attempt to secure a silent settlement with the victim's family before it fell apart, and to move stock holdings around to change position.\n\nif said victim's families went on good morning america saying that peloton tried to buy them off instead of recalling, it would crater the stock and force a lot of other contract-buying-related unpleasantness. \n\nInstead they take the measured gamble of a recall, which (believe it or not) is recoverable because peloton has a perfectly credible bicycle business still.", '>cheap piece of crap\n\nLet me guess, they were selling it for 5x the regular price of a treadmill though, and for some inexplicable reason people were buying it anyways?', 'They have similar treadmills at the university gym I go to, Woodway brand, been made for 30 years. Serious treadmill that I think pro athletes use or whatever. I’m wondering they they have a similar gap underneath. Anywho the price to buy one is like 13 grand, I’m willing to bet they thought a lot about safety\nhttps://www.woodway.com/products/4front/\n\nI feel like peloton basically tried to knock this shit off without any experience or thought put into the design. And selling something this serious to soccer moms and yuppies, marketing it as something you can have in the living room…something was bound to go wrong', 'That space underneath, that’s where tiny bodies get wrapped under by the belt and crushed.\n\nRegular treadmill belt runs off into a closed off part of the equipment which is flush with the floor.', 'Normal: enclosed people-mover style tread\n\nDeadly: exposed tank-tread "godless atheist baby eater" style', 'Three things. Almost every other treadmill on the market has a simple piece of plastic protecting the rear of the belt and keeping anything from coming into contact with the part of the belt think it’s pulled under the machine. Second this machines belt since much higher off the ground creating more space for a much larger objects to potentially get pulled under, and third the belt emergency stop is so ineffective that even with a full grown adult human on top of the treadmill and something as large as a 18 inch Beachball getting sucked under it the belt continues to spin at full speed', 'It’s higher off the ground than most treadmills and doesn’t stop going if it feels resistance. It will reverse a bit, then resume forward full speed.', 'I haven’t checked, are they paying the freight too?  The people I know that have pelotons, have zero skills to move it, let alone box it and get it to a UPS store.', 'IKEA has a recall on old Malm dressers and they had to put a cap on how many people can return per address.', 'Nice logic, because it’s easy for anyone to pick it up?', 'Yeah I was gonna say, these things are subscription locked. Might not even work at all because the recall deactivates them remotely', "I agree, but there were several design characteristics that made this unsafe. It wasn't just one or two things.\n\nThe track was made short so that shipping would cost less (compared to your traditional treadmill decks with are 5-6' long). \n\nRaising it off the floor, not having a tail guard and not having a sensor for jams and stuff are all part of it. \n\nI don't know if this could have been fixed but they defintely cheaped out on design and it's their fault.", 'The treadmill we had in the house growing up in the 90s was able to handle my obese parents using but could also auto shut off automatically if something jammed it. That was a cheap treadmill over 20 years ago. What changed? What technological secrets have been lost to the sands of time so that this is no longer possible?', 'Thank you! It’s wild how confident people are about the ease and simplicity of designing and then ultimately producing these features. It’s infuriating.', "It does, but people leave the key in the treadmill and let their kids play on it and that's pelotons fault /s", 'Grinder is for flower only', 'It’s 2020.  They should!', 'Hey, good for you, that is really impressive and difficult to stay on top of.  Props :)', 'Sounds like the GPU market from just a year before COVID.', "Those aren't slatted treadmills like the Peleton. The exposed solid slats are way more dangerous than exposed belts. That's why this style (exposed slats) is mostly sold to gyms.", 'Why would lots of treadmills do this?', 'Is the issue the exposed belt or the height of the treadmill off the floor?', 'The question is why have an exposed belt with that heavy duty of a belt and with as much power. Your links to those cheap portables is hardly relevant.', 'And yet… Pretty much every other treadmill on the market seems to do just fine and not crash babies', "[Well... 'under' the treadmill](https://youtu.be/F0GquqGzl1U?t=6).", 'Thanks. Fixed.', 'To get that right arm on the emoji, use 3 of this character: \\\n\nLike so: ¯\\\\\\_(ツ)_/¯', 'Just because something isn\'t made for kids doesn\'t mean you shouldn\'t implement some basic safety features. This is like arguing "why do we need seatbelts and airbags to cater to irresponsible idiots who don\'t know how to drive?"', "Agreed. Whole thing feels silly. I mean hell, I don't use my exercise bike without locking my cat out of the room, because I know she'd stick her cute dumb cat face between the pedals and become general tso's meat fast. With my own progeny I'd be double paranoid that they're secure", 'I’m a little surprised that covers and the brakes aren’t standard. My parents bought one about 20 years ago, and their back roller was covered and there was a little clip that you hooked to your belt and put it in the machine, and without that clip being in, the machine stopped.  In essence, it was an emergency brake.  I’m just really surprised that such safety measures are not standard.', "I'm thinking a treadmill wide button at the narrowest point that would be pressed by anything that could be crushed at said point.", '> The auto stop doesn’t stop when a whole ass person is lodged under it \n\nDirect quote from the CPB lawsuit!', 'Thanks for this complete ass answer to my whole ass question.  Deadass', 'It looks pretty slick though haha', 'All of this, made worse by them using individual slats instead of a solid belt. Right at the area where there would normally be a guard the slats open briefly to go around the curve and back the other direction. Essentially a high speed grabber.', 'Right, exactly. I have the Tread+ and this is trickier than a regular belt treadmill because the "belt" is actually a number of rubber-coated metal slats. They really are more comfortable to run on, it\'s really the Peloton\'s main selling point, but there\'s just no "give" compared to a regular fabric-type belt. And the belt is directly driven by the motor, too. I\'m no engineer but it\'s likely a harder problem then just adding a cover or bar. I don\'t know what the solution is.', 'They also said the gap at the rear is larger than regular treadmills', 'But how are you supposed to convince people to pay $4000+ for a treadmill plus a monthly fee if it doesn’t look modern and sleek? That plastic guard makes it look like all other boring treadmills. /s', 'I am fairly certain that they will be modifying these to add that piece of plastic.', 'That and saving $3 in plastic, maybe a few oz in weight, and having them look aesthetically pleasing would make them more money.', 'One thing about this thread is it’s exposing all the armchair parent brain dead morons not realizing there is an actual literal design flaw that other treadmills have easily solved.', '> Flaw is parents not paying attention to their children.\n\nNope, flaw is this treadmill leaving a dangerous component exposed that most similar designed treadmills protect.\n\n> If you leave a sharp chef’s knife totally accessible to children...\n\nThis isn\'t about access, it\'s about a design flaw.  Imagine that sharp chef\'s knife with a razor blade attached to the handle where you grab the knife.  When you cut yourself, do you say "Oh gee, I should\'ve been supervised?"  No, you say "What the FUCK is that razor blade doing on the handle?"  Same case with this treadmill.', '>\tFlaw is parents not paying attention to their children.\n\nI’m assuming from this dumb ass comment that you don’t have children. If you did, you would already know that literally turning your head in the opposite direction is enough time for a child to get into something.', "That's probably it, the president of the company at first refused to do the recall.  His lawyers probably took him aside and told him you already are going to lose a good chunk of cash for killing the little kid and who knows how much the 7 dogs are going to cost you and your insurance provider is cancelling your policy!  He finally decided the recall wasn't such a bad idea after all.", 'Things can get sucked under the machine if it gets pulled by the belt. Other machines have a shield on the bottom that prevents anything from being pulled under.', 'Three things. Almost every other treadmill on the market has a simple piece of plastic protecting the rear of the belt and keeping anything from coming into contact with the part of the belt think it’s pulled under the machine. Second this machines belt since much higher off the ground creating more space for a much larger objects to potentially get pulled under, and third the belt emergency stop is so ineffective that even with a full grown adult human on top of the treadmill and something as large as a 18 inch Beachball getting sucked under it the belt continues to spin at full speed', 'Other treadmills have an adjustable guard on the front that keeps animals and small children from being sucked under the machine.', 'Almost every other treadmill on the market has a simple piece of plastic protecting the rear of the belt and keeping anything from coming into contact with the part of the belt think it’s pulled under the machine. Second this machines belt since much higher off the ground creating more space for a much larger objects to potentially get pulled under, and third the belt emergency stop is so ineffective that even with a full grown adult human on top of the treadmill and something as large as a 18 inch Beachball getting sucked under it the belt continues to spin at full speed\n\nThis is like claiming that somebody who gets injured in a car crash on a new car sold without a seatbelt is at fault because the car came with Keys', 'Clean lines over a clean conscious I guess.', 'Cool! How much are they paying you?', 'Bad analogy. Imagine if you will a toaster that doesn’t have a box around the heating elements so that they are simply out in the open in the air because it looks cooler that way now I imagine a company actually tried to sell it because that’s what peloton did with this treadmill \n\nIt lacks Three things. Almost every other treadmill on the market has a simple piece of plastic protecting the rear of the belt and keeping anything from coming into contact with the part of the belt think it’s pulled under the machine. Second this machines belt since much higher off the ground creating more space for a much larger objects to potentially get pulled under, and third the belt emergency stop is so ineffective that even with a full grown adult human on top of the treadmill and something as large as a 18 inch Beachball getting sucked under it the belt continues to spin at full speed', 'I think a better analogy is if a parent leaves the keys in the ignition of their unlocked car and the kid gets in, turns it on and manages to kill themselves or someone else, is the car manufacturer at fault for not having safety features in place to prevent a child from operating the vehicle other than a simple key? Or is the parent at fault for the kid having unsupervised access to the unsecured vehicle? I think car manufacturers could definitely have more safety features required of them, rather than now where they are only offered on premium or upgraded models. So are they at fault for not having them on all vehicles even though it’s not required when something goes wrong that additional safety features could have prevented? Say a kid gets in their parents car and rear ends someone and is killed, and forward collision sensors with automatic braking could have saved him, is Ford at fault for not including it on all their vehicles?', 'I’m sorry but a gun isn’t a treadmill. One is a weapon explicitly for harming people, and the other is a piece of recreational equipment. I get it - they’re still presumed to be dangerous, but in today’s society if you buy an expensive luxury good, you should be able to have faith that the manufacturer took the most basic safety steps. Guns have safety mechanisms don’t they? It’s a piece of plastic, Peloton, and it’s absence is inexcusable.', 'It lacks three basic safety features that pretty much every other treadmill on the market has.', 'Same thing happened to me! My parents had it almost touching the wall, just a few inches of space between them. I was 9 and fucking around with the speeds while standing next to it. I’m not sure if I slipped or stepped onto the 12mph belt, but the next thing I know is being flung upside down against the wall. My back was against the still moving belt and I wasn’t able to get up on my own. I was stuck for about a minute before my dad snatched me up. I got a gnarly looking skid mark down my whole back and arm, but it thankfully wasn’t worse', 'So, you would say it is the persons fault that didn’t allow enough space for the treadmill, not the manufacturer.', '[removed]', 'That was goddamn beautiful.', '>I have no patience for personal responsibility bullshit. \n\nAgreed 100%. You can go on and on about what the general public *should* do, but that doesn’t solve the problem of people getting injured or killed. Those who endlessly debate how stupid the parents are aren’t really interested in keeping people safe. They just see an opportunity to act superior and seize it.', 'This was a design choice. They thought it looked better to not have a shield there. There is not other reason to not have one.', 'The piece of plastic you talk about opens up a new category of possible injuries. \n\nA belt treadmill does not have the ability to grab. If something becomes"stuck" it will result in some road rash. The tread design has slats with spaces between them, like a tank tread. It can grab stuff and hold on to it, dragging it between the slats and plastic cover. \n\nThe peloton is not the only one designed like this. The woodway is similar. \n\n[https://www.woodway.com/products/](https://www.woodway.com/products/)\n\nLook at the norditrack. Same deal. Some of them do not have a safety bar. \n\nThere is one video out there where a kid gets sucked under it because his 8 year old sister is playing on it. No Adults around. The other video shows a mom walking on it and a yoga ball gets sucked under it, while her pet and child and running around the room. The child that died got squished because the tread was set to an incline and lowered while they were under it. Most of the injuries could have been avoided by taking the key out of it. I mean, who leaves the keys in the ignition of their car when its in the garage when half of the garage is a play room. \n\nI understand the need to make safe things to protect the stupidest of us. \n\nWe still have machines and equipment that kill people every year. People still leave their kids in the back seat. People still run a charcoal grill inside to stay warm. People still refuse to wear helmets and seat-belts. And people drink and drive and drive their cars over a 100 MPH. \n\nFor me this all boils down to being a responsible consumer. \n\nI bought the tread+ Last November. We had it installed and I immediately saw the possibility of my dogs getting sucked under it. We bought a gate to keep them away. I am not saying everyone should have the ability to recognize a dangerous piece of equipment. But just a little common sense.', "This story made me think of when Mike Tyson's 4-year old daughter died from being hung by the cord of a treadmill key:\nhttps://abcnews.go.com/Entertainment/story?id=7677067", 'This treadmill must really suck', 'They literally do have this problem, way more ppl die from treadmills that aren’t peloton…', "this is a good point and I'd like to add that although people keep saying that treadmills should be kept in a place far from children, most people don't have the space for a separate room for the treadmill. Even if they did have it in another room that the kids aren't suppose to be in, kids will get in there and they will try to play with the 'cool thing'.", "And IKEA had a warning in their MALM dresser that said to anchor it to a wall. But the anchor was not included and 6 kids died when they tipped those dressers over on themselves. Is that the parent's fault or IKEA? \n\nBeing that IKEA finally recalled and redesigned that dresser and paid a 50 million dollar settlement I'm going to say it was IKEA for designing shit furniture they knew would tip over easily and then not providing the safety anchors that are required to make the thing safe.", 'That video is atrocious. 4 year olds aren’t old enough to use a treadmill, let alone having a clueless infant crawling around in the same room.', 'I agree. I do think the video is useful as a warning for what can happen and what not to do so people understand the risks.', '>  "evidence" of the danger\n\noh fuuuuuuck off\n\nShitty parents exposing their kids to something dangerous doesn\'t make the dangerous thing not dangerous.\nDid something similar happen with a treadmill to your head as a kid? Because it would explain a lot.', "How is it ridiculous? **The child got stuck under and it NEVER STOPPED RUNNING.** That is not safely designed. An adult could fall and have their arm sucked up. What's the excuse now? Don't be a clumsy adult? This is on them 100%. Don't sell a product that without a safety stop.", 'You have to design products with people being blithering idiots in mind.  You are vastly vastly over estimating the intelligence of a typical American.', 'Hence why I said, If it has a key, shame on them. For 5 grand I expect a passcode or face id.', "The people arguing that it's the parents fault are idiots. While I agree it shouldn't be in the same room or on unsupervised, this is 100% a safety failure. **What happens to an adult that falls and gets their arm stuck? So it's now my fault that the machine doesn't have a safety stop? What about pets? A treadmill should have a safety stop period.** This should have never been released to the market.", "The Aviation Gin ad would have to be non-canon if she was pregnant. Or she really just doesn't care.", 'That is correct and even more so for a product that is 2-3 times the cost of your average treadmill.', "Yep turns out it's the bikes around 130. Thanks for the correction : )", 'Treadmills are not for children. Just like power tools, ovens, electrical sockets, and any other house hold items that used improperly can kill. The parents of the child that died decided to put a dangerous item in their house, and not protect their children from it, are responsible. \n\nDid Peloton promote the treadmill as being safe for children? No. Did they tout their safety features? No. It’s an expensive treadmill built for adults. Just like a very sharp and deadly kitchen knife: it’s a tool, not a toy.', "Ah shit I guess a billion dollar company shouldn't implement basic safety features in their products.... Lets solely blame the parents instead!", 'Is it really that goddamn hard to put a simple plastic protective cover over the rear of it like every other fucking treadmill on the market?', "I wasn't aware that there was a key to use it and I don't see that in the article. If the key was left in it l, that definitely puts more liability on the parents.\n\nHowever, a device that is powerful enough to suck objects under it during typical use, which then tosses the user into the air (adults as well) is dangerous and should be mitigated to prevent further  incidents. \n\nThe think the key part is that they neglected to add a safety mechanism that is typical of most treadmills currently in production.", 'One that has already admitted it messed up too.', 'They should have walked or gone public about it then and force the ‘higher ups’ to answer publicly. Architects and general contractors have to adhere to safety codes and regulations for a reason and consumer products should be no different.', 'Fair enough.\n\nSo the attached video screen gimmick is injuring and killing people.  That’s one impressive design oversight.', 'The article points out one of the key differences between it and most other treadmills. It uses sections of rubber for its tread instead of a single continuous piece of rubber and the platform you walk on is raised high enough for a small person to somehow end up trapped under it while the device is on (and get sanded by the belt).', 'Most treadmills have a simple belt guard so a child could get pinched but not crushed if they got close to a running treadmill. \n\nPeloton omitted this basic safety feature to keep a cleaner look.', 'Three things. Almost every other treadmill on the market has a simple piece of plastic protecting the rear of the belt and keeping anything from coming into contact with the part of the belt think it’s pulled under the machine. Second this machines belt since much higher off the ground creating more space for a much larger objects to potentially get pulled under, and third the belt emergency stop is so ineffective that even with a full grown adult human on top of the treadmill and something as large as a 18 inch Beachball getting sucked under it the belt continues to spin at full speed', 'Because then it would cost $4,603.72 and no one would possibly be able to afford it', 'Then use one of those as a better example, thats their point.', "There are other treadmills on the market with the same deck mechanism, same geometries and inherent risks, and accidents involving those other brands have not been widely reported in the media, or received a government warning - it's a double standard.   \nHow many other products have been recalled after only one accidental death?  Do all heavy equipment manufacturers need to baby-proof their equipment? Do parents have a responsibility to keep children away from heavy machinery and other everyday dangers? My point is that Peloton is being super reactive and immensely overcautious in recalling these machines, so Kudos to them taking the hit versus staying course.", 'It does not say how, champ.', 'I must be confusing that with something else but isn’t there some way products get “approved”?', 'Three things. Almost every other treadmill on the market has a simple piece of plastic protecting the rear of the belt and keeping anything from coming into contact with the part of the belt think it’s pulled under the machine. Second this machines belt since much higher off the ground creating more space for a much larger objects to potentially get pulled under, and third the belt emergency stop is so ineffective that even with a full grown adult human on top of the treadmill and something as large as a 18 inch Beachball getting sucked under it the belt continues to spin at full speed', "The CEO has no shame apparently, his current apology is utterly empty since this was all predictable months ago and he has been adamantly trying to avoid the recall. It's not just kids and pets getting caught, there was also an issue with a panel falling off.", '> sent an urgent reminder directly to Tread+ Members to follow the critical warnings and safety instructions that accompany the Tread+, which state that children, pets, and objects should be kept clear of the Tread+ at all times.\n\nLOL When parents need a warning... Natural selection', "> Members should keep children, pets, and objects away from the Tread+ at all times.\n\nThink about that. They're basically saying that the Peloton must be in a locked room.", 'They probably have to keep this up, showing the statement they made as a disclosure to shareholders. This is relevant activity that could (should) affect the companies financial stability in the future.\n\nThat’s why it’s on the investor relations page.', 'When MA 50 death crosses MA 200, youre gonna have a bad time.', "It's not a problem at all, every treadmill on the market for decades has injury risks and even deaths. It's not a toy. \n\nRoughly 20,000+ injuries a year, and ~30 deaths per decade are associated with treadmills. \n\nThe only issue here is Peloton has become a huge name, and an easy company for the media to attack for views and ad revenue. Their injury risk level is below some other companies with similar products, and sorry for being crass but it really comes down to irresponsible parents allowing children/pets nearby while exercising or not unplugging it/securing it to prevent use when not exercising. Kids should not be allowed to play near exercise equipment, that is a common-sense known danger for generations. \n\nTheir tread platform is raised, as has become standard for commercial quality treadmills (and different from the cheaper treadmills of the past that are more jarring on the knees), but the warnings are prevalent and responsibility is on the user. \n\nThe recall itself is only voluntary, as a PR reprieve as the stock is dropping, but I doubt most owners will do it. It's still not really an admission of fault, as the product itself isn't at fault. The tread is raised for a reason, designed that way for a reason, and should not be treated like a toy for a reason.", "I warned her she wouldn't use it after the first month.", "Let the thing eat your dirty clothes and you'll never have to deal with them again.", "That's what *The Chair* is for.", "I feel attacked. I don't have one of their bikes but what I do have is a ~~keyboard~~ laundry holder.", 'hey thanks!', 'Just be sure to sell it before they release a new version and then stop supporting the old one, as is tradition with IOT devices.', "I have a mountain bike that I use regularly and I'm in shape.  I don't need it.  And honestly, neither did she.", 'Why would I lie?', 'From what my girlfriend says about it, the tread is a great treadmill for serious runners.', 'That is exclusively student loan debt. They might actually owe quite a bit more than that in other debts.', 'I want a Sisyphus workout machine\n\nYou push a giant medicine ball up an endless treadmill', 'Inquisitor #1: *Check out the great calves on this heretic!*\n\nInquisitor #2: *That gives me an idea...*', 'I was being facetious.', 'Ah k. I see that they elaborated in the article.\n\nIn the car industry it’s common to fix the problem and give the car back. So I didn’t expect a $4000 machine to get a refund when they can bolt a shroud over it.\n\nThis is crazy.', "Dude kids are devious little shits. You look away for a second and they're off.\n\nMy next door neighbor's 3 year old wandered over to my yard three days ago, looking for worms like his older sisters taught him.\n\nAdd to that, new parents, who haven't totally grasped how inventive a kid can be? Half the time, yes, bad parenting just leaving your kid alone. But tons of kids are hurt everyday by just being devious little shits.\n\nI am a parent.", 'Treadmills have safety keys that prevent this. You take the key out of the system when you’re done, so it can’t be turned on. It’s bad parenting, plain and simple.', 'Great parent do not let their kids on this machine.', 'I have kids. I have had a treadmill in my home even when they were toddlers. I removed the key when I was done because I realize a machine like that is an attraction.', 'It can be both 🤷🏻\u200d♂️ See [IKEA](https://www.consumerreports.org/furniture/ikea-recall-efforts-fail-to-protect-kids-parents-say/)\n\nI’m not suggesting that a recall is the perfect solution to absolve bad parents, but I’m glad that it is available for people who can’t/won’t child-proof their fitness areas.', 'If other treadmills aren’t having this problem it’s a treadmill issue.', "That's all well and good, but I'd still like a treadmill to have basic safety features to protect poorly parented kids.", 'Backdoorschoolbus, you are an idiot. So should we do away with residential speed limits, too? Because only bad parents let their kids get hit by cars (making speed limits a moot issue)? Seriously, just shut up.', "How about maybe we don't sell exercise equipment that can so easily kill kids?", "It's a design flaw. Typically there isn't as much of a gap to the floor and also there are usually guards around the bottom.", 'pretty often that is the case with high luxury goods that are commercialized.\n\noften its not high or luxury just a brand name product that is either spray with perfume, sounds nice or some other marketing bullshit.\n\nproduct wise you are often better getting something thats industrial grade.', 'But it makes you think, if these big, well resourced companies can still produce unsafe products what does it say about the cheaper generic brand stuff where they can’t even spell the user manual correctly and how safe that is?', "Other treadmills don't have this? I", 'The tank-tread baby eater might love Jesus though. Hard to know.', 'Don’t insult godless atheists by comparing them to this treadmill.', 'The plastic guard seems so simple. I don’t understand why they didn’t do it.', 'Why the hell is this thing even off the ground to begin with.  I’m seeing a new design and I don’t know why they bothered to design it like this.  What problem did this solve?', '>Almost every other treadmill on the market has a simple piece of plastic protecting the rear of the belt \n\n*Almost every?* I’ve owned a lot of treadmills in my life and been to many gyms. I have never seen this, not once. \n\nI just checked amazon, and of the first ten results not a single one had this mystical piece of plastic. \n\nSame thing with automatic motor stop. I’ve never seen that before either. Most treadmills will just let it spin until the motor fries.', 'it seems the emergency method actually guns it when it senses slowdown instead of emergency stopping.', "It's higher off the ground but also exposed at the bottom (think crawling belt of a tank or digger) versus a contained bottom of a normal treadmill (think moving sidewalk or checkout conveyor belt).", "Typically Peloton does it themselves. When we had the bike, they delivered and set it up themselves, and then sent another team to disassemble and pick it up (30 day return policy - we didn't care for the bike).\n\nI just have no idea how they can scale quickly enough to make this even semi-feasible for that many at once.", "I tried to find out the specifics but I didn't see them posted anywhere.", "I mean not really but if they person wants a cheap treadmill I don't see why not rent a Uhaul for $50 bucks to transport it.", "They didn't just cheap out on design, they designed it this way because it simply *looks better than the competition*,  these sold because they looked good while not taking up as much space... It's a prestige item in a way.", 'I’ll agree with the sensor aspect. I’m not sure how you design an effective tail guard with the elevating design these have, but i feel like some further attempt at physical guarding coupled with some safety sensors would have gone a long way for sure. It’s tricky, because these are inherently dangerous devices, and I do think people need to express/accept personal responsibility more. But obviously they decided to recall for a reason.\n\nI was mostly pointing out the humor I saw in suggesting you put a load detector on a treadmill motor.', 'why is short track more dangerous?', 'Yea that’s an absurd excuse.  Is it difficult? Sure.  Is it achieving orbital flight or curing a disease? Lmao not even close.  This is a fixable problem and when your company is making over a billion in profit annually, you can fucking pay to get it figured out.  It’s called being cheap.', 'I was trying to figure out what gay euphemism that was. Turns our were not talking about Grindr.', 'Wanna go into the meat grinder?-Gwar', "Because they are supposed to be locked by removing the safety key when not in use. Because even if they have a guard on the bottom, there's plenty of other ways for a child to injure, mame, and kill themselves if left unsupervised with a treadmill. If you do t let your kids play with lawnmowers, circular saws, and blenders, then you shouldn't let them play with treadmills either.", 'It’s both plus the design of the belt not being a smooth belt but more a tractor tank tread design and on top of both of those the fact that it has no safety stop function it simply pulls harder when it encounters resistance', 'Every other slat belted treadmill has the same safety issue.', 'I gotta say it’s pretty crazy the parents just let their kids play with toys in a room with workout equipment alone', 'Oh shit that’s morbid. How do you even protect against that though? Some kind of locking system?', 'I’m sorry, but this just makes me not want kids', "That is 110% on the parents. How the fuck could/should people expect manufacturers to kid-proof exercise equipment. It's not made to be played on by kids for fuck sake!", "After watching that - wow, fuck those parents. I'm sick and tired of neglectful parents receiving sympathies after something bad happens to their kid.  This shit was easily avoidable.  The company fucked up, yes, I'm not defending them, but the parents are equally to blame.  You wanted these kids, fucking watch them!", 'Those parents need to have their kids taken away. What kind of irresponsible asshole lets their kids play around this stuff?', 'Omg my heart was racing. Thank god he got out. That was unbelievable to watch. How the hell was this product released without a safety stop????', "No it's not at all like that actually because traffic is hundreds of random people (often not qualified like old people or teens) driving a 2 ton metal box of controlled explosions at speeds not achievable by a human, the risk isn't yourself it's the other people that might hit you. \n\nKeeping a child from killing themselves on a peloton, which is controlled only by the user, is literally as simple as locking a door, keeping it unplugged, or keeping the kill switch off so it cannot operate. If you are a parent and cannot do something as simple as keeping the kill switch off then it's your fault.\n\nIn one situation it's you against hundreds of other people in very variable environments, in the other, its just you, in a room, with an inanimate object", 'The clip that pulls out is still a thing.  Peloton argued that when they initially didn’t recall them.', 'There\'s a difference between "turning off" and an emergency brake. You need that belt to stop *immediately*. Most keep moving too much due to inertia.', "That's simply not feasible with something ad big as a treadmill designed to be used in living space.", 'Exercise bikes with internal belts and wheels are remarkably safe because the only exposed moving parts are the cranks/pedals (and you can stop those in an instant) \n\nTreadmills are dangerous. Even adults have gotten seriously hurt by them.', 'Yeah a lever actuated by a bar across the whole end.', 'Is this an insult or not', 'It’s a fucking treadmill who cares what it looks like', 'Exponentially more comfortable to run on a slatted treadmill than belted. Woodway has the same type of belt. You ever drive on a set of $100 tires vs $1000?', '> Hurr durr watch your kids\n\nHow about incorporate basic safety features into a $4,600 product?', 'Actual parent here. Not saying it’s not a design flaw or peloton’s parts. Saying that parents paying attention, following the manual (not letting kids play on it, removing safety key) would have successfully mitigated these incidents.', 'I do and I know. Not sure how the kids managed to find the safety key, get it running, etc... all without the parents noticing.  That’s a hell of a lot more time than a head turn (or were the parents negligent in not utilizing the safety key.... hmmm?). Anything with moving parts like that (design flaws or not) is a dangerous machine for children to play on and the appropriate precautions should have been taken.', 'Ty, friend.', 'I pay 38 dollars a month.', "I'm still keeping it. I don't think I could get an equivalent machine that would be any safer.", "Yeah, the burn is definitely user error but it sounds like he was old enough to decide to go on a run and he didn't get sucked under it rather just between the treadmill and wall because of a basic safety feature included on almost every treadmill I have seen aside from some 1960s-70s treadmill my grandparents had growing up. The only reason they did not include that feature at peloton is aesthetics, it wouldn't look as high class, sleek, and almost floaty with a panel that blocks stuff from going underneath- something that protects you from death or serious harm rather than a super bad case of rug burn (and man does treadmill rugburn hurt like a bitch, had a similar story to that dude)", 'User error usually has the users pointing fingers away from themselves.', 'Thanks for bringing back the nightmares of endless FMEA meetings while working with the product development team as an RND engineer.\n\nMy personal favorite for an advanced septic tank: children could steal a parent’s screwdriver, open lid to the septic tank, and then swan dive right into a pile of their own shit and piss.\n\nNaturally our recommendation was tamper-proof screws.', 'Sue the company. Apparently.', 'And it was priced at $2000 what in the *fuck*!', 'Couldnt you make the same argument about something that’s cheap and underdeveloped and in-market?', 'I only know from experience trying to move mine by myself. Mistakes were made 🤣', 'It’s an object with three industry standard safety features intentionally omitted. Peloton failed to put a plastic guard over the back, they raise the back much higher off the ground and use a slotted belt that is much more likely to trap people and they omit any sort of emergency stop or resistance sensor?\n\nYou’re making a strawman argument and what it amounts to is basically the same as if a car manufacturer released a car without seatbelts then blamed the receipt passengers for getting injured because the driver shouldn’t have gotten in a crash in the first place', 'Exactly. All of the people claiming that this is like leaving your child in a car with the car running are missing the point that in reality it’s more like a car manufacturer selling a car without a seatbelt and then claiming it’s the drivers fault for getting into a crash', '\n\n> They should have walked\n\nNot everyone has the privilege of leaving their job freely like that.\n\n>or gone public about it then and force the ‘higher ups’ to answer publicly. \n\nHow 2 get sued 101.', "Still didn't feel like reading the whole article? You didn't have to go much further but you just...stopped.", 'No backing, no disable trigger for when something is detected underneath, no safety bar/barrier for underside.\n\nBasically an example of form over function.', 'Mine has no guard but it is belt driven, not the panels like peleton has.', 'Because the other brands that use similar mechanisms and designs are marketed specifically at gyms and institutions not at household use. The accidents aren’t occurring because the machines are not generally located in homes. Peloton on the other hand is specifically marketing to consumers for home use', 'Three separate failures on the part of peloton. First this doesn’t have a simple piece of plastic guarding the rear part of the belt that gets pulled underneath the treadmill like pretty much every other treadmill on the market does. Second that rear of the treadmill sets much higher off the ground than other treadmill’s leaving much more room for much larger objects to get pulled under and third the automatic stop function is ineffective to the point where even with a full grown ass person on top of the treadmill and something as large as a 18 inch Beachball getting sucked under it the belt continues to spin at full speed they basically shit the bed as hard as they possibly could have and then claimed it was the consumers fault for getting hurt', 'Idk why you’re being downvoted. Yea, there are entities that products need to be approved through depending on their category. But in the US money gets around anything', 'Thanks! Appreciate your time in answering.  I have a different kind, but no children. I was just wondering if they are all that dangerous.', 'It’s called trusting risk analysis over people’s lives.\n\nCost to do a recall could be more than a wrongful death payout.\n\nSee Ford Pinto\n\nOr just watch [Fight Club](https://youtu.be/SiB8GVMNJkE).\n\nOverall it pertains to [calculus of negligence ](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Calculus_of_negligence)\n\n>I’m not an expert I just remember studying this in a business law class', "Well, he did publicly apologize. From the OP's article:\n\n“I want to be clear, Peloton made a mistake in our initial response to the Consumer Product Safety Commission’s request that we recall the Tread+,” CEO John Foley said in a statement Wednesday. “We should have engaged more productively with them from the outset. For that, I apologize.”", 'And the financial media has *still* been pushing Peloton stock lol.', 'Oh come on the product comes with a safety key, people leaving it running while not even watching their kids or pets are at fault here.', 'Blame the “Hurr durr can’t let stonks go down or shareholders will fire me” mentality of the stock market too.', "My wife wanted the bike too. Begged me for a 2k stationary bike. I told her the same thing. A month later and now I'm the only one using it just to be able to justify the cost.", "Teach a man to hang laundry and he'll never go hungry.  I'm feelin' it", 'Peloton is struggling to keep up with demand of new orders for their bikes. You have to wait months. You can likely sell yours fast on a local marketplace app and get a large percentage of what you paid for it.', 'Internet points, join the hate bandwagon 🤷\u200d♂️', 'I agree… I have the Tread+ and never tell jokes when running. 🤪', 'That’s giving me anxiety just imagining. My wife and I had that much student debt, but we focused on paying it off and still kinda live below our income level. Hope they like running inside.', 'Automotive manufacturers have massive dealership systems distributed across the country with tens of thousands of mechanics already employed and in place.\n\nMost other industries lack the servicing capability to make large scale nationwide repairs practical, which is why recalls are more commonly just full refunds', "There is a safety key and I'll bet you almost none of the parents who's kids were injured used it.", "Yeah. But the problem is that if for whatever reason the treadmill is running when the kid or pet touches the back, instead of getting pinched or a friction burn they'll risk being crushed to death. There's a reason these machines are supposed to have multiple safety features", 'Considering all the other safety features that were left out or scaled back on this model, are you sure?\n\nthere is some responsibility on the  parent here having a machine like this around kids, however to say these are bad parents is just so off base-the machine should not be designed in a way to make it so easy for this to happen.\n\nThere are toddler toys that are literally to practice with different types of locks and keys. I know its hard for someone like you to fathom, but my 3 year old could figure out one those treadmill “keys” that you hold in such high regard in about 30 seconds-\n\nAll it takes is for them to reach it one time because you put it on the counter in your normal safe spot but the bowl was bumped a bit or your other sibling moved the key to an easily accessible spot by accident while looking for something. Just so many scenarios that could happen —-but no, you know all the details and have it all figured out that its just plain and simple bad parenting. Nothing at all to do with design flaws or poor testing or irresponsible decision making from Peloton. \n\nYou are plain and simple', "Right, even if the final cause of these accidents was parents not properly child-proofing their exercise areas, from the reports I have seen the treadmill should have had better guarding to make it harder for objects/kids/pets to be pulled under the machine.\n\nAny device with motors and functional spinning parts is dangerous and kids, pets, and the untrained should be kept away. That still doesn't excuse poor design that makes injuries more likely.", 'Other treadmills are having this issue. There was a thread a while back that showed 20+ other treadmills that are just as dangerous. You aren’t supposed to leave the safety key in the treadmill when unattended', 'A dumbbell dropped on your moms face could kill her. \n\nA resistance band could strangle your family member. \n\nA yoga mat could kill a baby if they swallowed a piece.', "That's a good question, maybe cheaper treadmills rely on mass produced designs that are known to be safe enough without causing PR meltdowns like this, or people have lower expectations for cheaper products, or smaller brands don't get attention like Peloton when they have design flaws, etc.\n\nI do think it's egregious that a treadmill that costs $4000 doesn't have some kind of safety shutoff, especially with a more powerful motor than whatever treadmill you can buy at Walmart or something. Maybe the motors and belts of regular treadmills aren't powerful enough to injure people as often. If I was in the market for a treadmill I definitely wouldn't buy some off brand one with a similar design to Peloton or Woodway though", "Most treadmills are a belt that runs on the deck, and has the return underside either completely covered or partially with guards to stop people and most pets from being pulled underneath.\n\nThe peloton one is a moving deck, think tank treads, you run on the track and the track moves, nothing other than the track supports you. But it doesn't have a guard so you can have small people, pets and objects simply sucked underneath the machine and dragged, possibly crushed (it's pretty heavy for a treadmill) and simply injured by it.\n\n\nIt also has zero resistance sensors and is designed to just keep going and crank up if it's slowing down by something. So getting stuck under it'll keep running and running until you escape or someone comes to help. And the motors are pretty powerful in it.", 'I think most don’t like you see this one http://www.commercialfitnessconcepts.com/uploads/products/1531759549-m8e-hero-1.jpg\n\nIt could still potentially catch a paw don’t take me wrong, I had a similar one to that thing in the pic and had to put tape over parts as my cats loved pawing at it when I was running. We had no injuries thankfully but since then I am hyper aware of these things.', 'Pelonton is in the business of selling motivation. Not quality exercise equipment.', 'Because it’s got a look good for Karen and Chad', 'Karen and Chad thinking it was too ugly to hide away in their exercise room', 'Doesn’t help much if you’re not the person or object to get pulled under the treadmill', "Most consumer treadmills do not have the belt covered on the bottom. They sometimes have a few beams underneath, but the belt is open and can still pull things under. But yes, they're usually lower.", "Any company with a membership service is worth tons of money. That's why everyone has memberships now", "Actually I think they were designed this way as a cheaper knock off Woodway tread. I'd be interested to see how many accidents have happened with that brand since the functional part of the tread is almost identical. I only bought a peloton because I couldn't justify $12-15,000 for an equivalent Woodway.", "When my neighbor got one like 3 weeks ago..  I'll tell you what, it was a fucking production.\n\nBetween their van and the employees.  I smelled the broads perfume in MY HOUSE, minus her cape esque sweater.   It caught everyone's eye. Black van silver huge letters. \n\nNow this has started, I'm sure I'm not the only one chuckling.", 'Im not sure you can appeal to personal responsibility here. This is an extremely well known hazard called an in running nip point in the industrial sector. Usually it results in being caught in machinery and losing body parts but in this case a child or pet gets killed.\n\nAny good product designer or engineer should have known the hazard they were creating.', 'Have you ever worked on a project of this magnitude?', "I'm not in the industry, but it's my understanding that Woodway markets primarily to gyms and not to home users?", 'Correct. But they can run 15,000 bucks. Not the every day person is buying them. But yes, same design.', 'And yet… Lawnmowers circular saw and treadmills have safety guards around the part of a blade not actively used for cutting\n\n🤔 I wonder if there was someway to put a plastic guard around the back of this treadmill you don’t like pretty much every other treadmill on the market has', 'Hmm. Well my kids won’t like me not letting them play with any of those things.', 'People keep these inside their homes, not their picturesque garages like the ads show.', 'Ok? And?', 'Yeah, this is the part that confuses me, excercise equipment is frequently kinda dangerous, I mean ffs even kettlebells require a bit of caution.', 'A lot of people don\'t have the space for a room just dedicated to work out equipment. \n\nAlso, part of being a parent is encouraging independent play. It\'s not feasible to be watching or playing with your child at all times and despite telling kids, "Hey, don\'t touch the treadmill because it could kill you," they will still indeed touch the treadmill because kids are curious.\n\nA treadmill, especially one as advanced as the Peloton, should have more safety built in. They could have very cheaply placed a movement sensor along the bottom so it could tell if something crossed that line.  \n\nLook at the videos on YouTube....the kid doesn\'t die but it is terrifying.', "What's the next thing we're recalling because people are fucking stupid? Kitchen knives?", 'You’re expecting way too much from people. Regulations are written in blood for a reason.\n\nAlso you shouldn’t be considering safety features on products for the intelligent and considerate people but the negligent.', "Should it be unplugged and the safety key hidden while in use? \n\nIf you have to unplug it or hide the safety key to keep it from killing babies and pets, that's a design problem.  It should default to a safe state, not a potentially-deadly one.", '> Or better yet, watch your damn kids!\n\nRemember how everyone has been living for the past 14 months. Parents have had to work from home while schools and daycares shut down. Parents cannot be ubiquitous and kids can be sneaky and disobedient.', 'Our house is very small, so our treadmill is in the playroom. Our office is the next room over and our toddler is only in the playroom when we are working. So we can hear every little thing she does. Also, it is always unplugged with cord tied up high, the off switch on the motor is flipped off and the key is removed. So I think we are good, but this is still scary.', 'I think the machines have a key system and they recommend powering them off when not in use, but it appears most owners either bypass the key or never unplug the devices (or both).\n\nAlso, the design is quite poor particularly where the rear tread is exposed. They should have contained that in a protective housing of some kind.', "People mention the key, but there's also the issue of his much clearance is between the floor and the underside of the treadmill.\n\nPeloton doesn't use a standard flat belt for the tread, so it needs more space underneath. \n\nThe vast majority of treadmills do not share this design flaw, so there is little need to prevent children from going underneath--there just isn't room.\n\nOr, simple, cheap, plastic guards would work just fine.", "Most better designed treadmills have a guard on the end of the machine. They're still dangerous of course, but this is negligent design", "So everyone keeps mentioning the key systems, and while that's true, there's something else that's missing here. Aside from the rear design and higher than average tread height that are most likely causes, this system seems to lack any actual shutoff for when the tread gets stuck.\n\nMany other treadmills have some kind of system to detect negative torque that happens when the tread gets stuck, and will eventually shut off. In the video you can see it never shuts off, even at the end.", "By using the safety key that's part of every single powered  treadmill and peleton treadmill.\n\nEssentially, during use, you clip it to your body, and the other half is attached by a magnet to the treadmill. When it's pulled away from the treadmill, as in the case of you falling off, the treadmill stops. When not in use, the key is removed from the peleton. No key = no treadmill movement. Leaving the key in can lead to these situations.", "The treadmills already require a key to operate, however this isn't effective if parents are too lazy to pull the key after use. The remedy Peloton is working on for those who want to keep the units is to roll out a software update requiring a 4 digit pin before every use.\n\nThere are other ways to protect against it though. For instance some treadmills have guards in the rear. Some have sensors that will detect something getting under the belt. There's a variety of ways to deal with it.", 'You have a key that goes into the treadmill that prevents it from being turned on without an adult around...', 'Yep. They actually have a safety key, that if used properly, restricts it from running, much like any other treadmill. Unfortunately, if parents decide not to use the safety features, that causes things like this to happen.', "All you have to do is actually parent your child and don't out a treadmill in the play room", 'You protect against this by not letting your two year old play on a treadmill all alone.', '/r/KidsAreFuckingStupid', "You can't make it kid-proof, but you can implement some basic safety features to make it *less* dangerous. Obviously kids get hurt on treadmills all the time, but this one is unique in how it will drag a kid under and not let them get out.", 'So I guess keeping medicine, bleach and other such things in childproof containers is stupid too.', 'That makes sense. I always viewed it kind of like a seatbelt Or a motorcycle helmet before they were laws compelling their use: you didn’t have to use it, but you really probably should.', 'What about those stuff you block the stairways with?  using those to fence off the 2 or 3 sides of the treadmill should work well enough.', 'Haha, more of playful poking fun at the frequency of the word ass as an adjective.  All love', 'I was just kidding, but since you ask - yeah if I have a large piece of equipment in my house, I don’t want it to be ugly', 'I program and design industrial control systems and have programmed for huge industrial manufacturing lines with big high voltage motors pushing hot material at very high pressures.\n\nOne thing that is stressed when designing these systems is there have to be safety interlocks either programmed in or present through physical hardware. Typically both are needed. \n\nIdeally the interlocks and safety features never need to be used. Especially if operators are using the machine properly. But accidents happen. Sometimes people make a mistake even if they aren’t typically “negligent”. \n\nIt’s a lot easier to engineer a safety interlock than it is to change human behavior. So if a safety feature can be added without greatly affecting cost or performance there is zero reason not to add it. And there is zero reason an expensive peloton shouldn’t have a guard to prevent kids from getting dragged under.', 'That’s a great idea. Safety layers are a good thing. But how about you watch your kids too.', 'Damn, you PAY $38 a month to such pelotons dick?', 'It would literally need a five dollar piece of plastic across the back to make it exponentially safer', "I'm going to say, yes, if you were a 13 year old and saw a random cover with screws on it in your yard, you're opening that shit up.", 'Oh no! Won’t someone think of the poor poor company making billions annually, in profit.  How fucking *dare* we expect reasonably safe designs.', "I am struggling to comprehend what you're getting at. Arguments for all sorts of topics can be made for other topics. It doesn't mean it discredits the argument.", 'If those are the things you value in a treadmill, then don’t buy the Peloton. You have a choice when you buy things. Those parents chose to buy exercise equipment without those safety features and not protect their kids from it. I’m not a lawyer, but I believe seatbelts are mandated by law. If Peloton broke the law and sold equipment without mandated safety features, then they messed up. But I do not believe that is the case. \n\nMy only argument is that if you are upset about this problem, you should also be upset about guns and gun manufactures. Both are legal products, and both have the capacity to injure. And guns kill way more kids than boutique treadmills.', 'How is that the government did not make a fucking forced recall and had to wait for the company to willingly do one?', 'Not only that but as the 737 max issue has taught us most regulation is done on the honor system anyway', "1st rule of Ford Pinto is don't talk about Ford Pinto", "Thabks for the actual legal source and history of this idea. It's so easy for people to dismiss the Fight Club reference out of hand.", 'A + B + C = X. If X is less than the price of a recall, we don’t do one.', "1st rule of Ford Pinto is don't talk about Ford Pinto", 'You might want to read up on the Ford Pinto situation. From Wikipedia- A Rutgers Law Review article by former UCLA law professor Gary T. Schwartz (see Section 7.3 NHTSA Investigation above), examined the fatality rates of the Pinto and several other small cars of the time period. He noted that fires, and rear-end fires, in particular, are a very small portion of overall auto fatalities. At the time only 1% of automobile crashes would result in fire and only 4% of fatal accidents involved fire, and only 15% of fatal fire crashes are the result of rear-end collisions. When considering the overall safety of the Pinto, subcompact cars as a class have a generally higher fatality risk. Pintos represented 1.9% of all cars on the road in the 1975–76 period. During that time, the car represented 1.9% of all "fatal accidents accompanied by some fire." This implies the Pinto was average for all cars and slightly above average for its class. When all types of fatalities are considered, the Pinto was approximately even with the AMC Gremlin, Chevrolet Vega, and Datsun 510. It was significantly better than the Datsun 1200/210, Toyota Corolla, and VW Beetle. The safety record of the car in terms of fire was average or slightly below average for compacts, and all cars respectively. This was considered respectable for a subcompact car. Only when considering the narrow subset of rear-impact, fire fatalities for the car were somewhat worse than the average for subcompact cars. While acknowledging this is an important legal point, Schwartz rejected the portrayal of the car as a firetrap.', ">I’m not an expert I just remember studying this in a business law class\n\nDoes your business law class have a section on sporting equipment?\n\nI've always been curious about this. At least 40 children die on skateboards in the US every year, but there's never been a skateboard recall that I can think of. Tony Hawk isn't liable or blamed when some kid dies or is brutally maimed for life on a BirdHouse Skateboard.", "Translation: We apologize for lying intentionally about the safety of our treadmills because recalling them would cost us money and that's more important than peoples lives however the legal teams mentioning potential lawsuits so we'll give you all a half assed appology.", "It's a pretty hollow slap in the face of an apology in the wake of a child getting killed by one of their products, they don't even acknowledge the damage done by these machines, just that they didn't care until the public backlash.\n\nHe's probably more sorry to his shareholders for this financial blunder it cost them than he is to the parents of the kid this product killed.", 'That sounds more like "we thought that dealing with accidents due to our dangerous design would be cheaper than a recall, but now it seems like lawsuits are going to be way more expensive. We made a mistake in our PR approach, not in evaluating the danger to customers. Sorry for that"', 'Hollow af', 'They invested first, they want retail to jump on their failed investments so they can sell off at the top.', "I mean, now is the time to buy. The media backlash is dropping the price but its not like Peloton is gonna go out of business over this. In six months the stock will be up as everyone forgets about this, they release a new product, and people are going nuts buying shit as we get back to normal. It's a financially smart move.", "And your wife's mission is accomplished!", "I don't get it.  I spent 100 on a used elliptical that was originally about a grand.  Use it every once in a while, definitely enough to pay for itself.  A 2000 single piece of equipment that only does one thing is unjustifiable to my budget.", "I'm proud of my wife. She has had a history of buying into things way too easily, especially name brand things that are marketed well. She wanted a stationary bike and she did her own research and came to me asking for a $400 stationary bike and a $99 Roku tv that can run the Peloton app for like $10 per month. \n\nShe's come a long way in the last 8 years of marriage.", 'Why not get a normal bike with one of those inside roller stands to ride inside?', "Should have just got a regular bike it's way more fun being outdoors and cheaper", "My cousin got one cuz she saw me get one, she's used it 5x since February. I've usually been on the bike at least 4x a week.", '2k? I bought an elliptical bike hybrid for around $100 new. When it broke two years later I had no issues with throwing it away and buying the same model because it was just $100. What that hell makes that thing cost 2k?', 'Could have bought a bike and bike trainer for that cost.', 'I dont get it u can buy ergos for like 50bucks per metric ton on ebay. At least here in germany but i guess its the same in the states', "Many people that don't get into the habit with a club/gym will tell themselves that it's the hassle of going to the gym that's the problem and if only it was in their home with no hurdles to use it they finally would", 'People who’s means outstrip their needs tend to start making purchases based on who they want to be, instead of who they are. People who like their daily latte so they buy a nice espresso machine, but are quickly annoyed at how exacting the process is, and how often they need to clean the machine, so before they realize it, the machine has been shunted to a shelf in the garage and they’re back to stopping at Starbucks every morning.\n\nThis is a big part of my mom’s personality. She’ll not hear anything about it, but she’s constantly buying new things that get used only a few times.', "I got a treadmill for a pandemic purchase. I had previously had a gym membership primarily to use their treadmill during winter and when kids were off school (yay childcare).  Our gym was cheap, so buying a treadmill to avoid the gym costs didn't make sense. Now I don't need the gym anymore!", "Sorry.  That's ridiculous.  If your sad little life requires imaginary internet points, you need to get a better one.", 'Yeah, he was not exactly privy to his wife’s purchase beforehand or he would have definitely done everything he could have to stop it. Let’s just say he was not happy with her decision.', "Well I mean obviously, without the key it won't work.", 'Always looking for something to blame other than themselves.', "You should see the poor design on the circular saw I keep in my kid's nursery.  Are we really saying that nothing potentially harmful to idiot children (I have 2 idiot children, giving me full license to call them idiot children) should be allowed to be sold?  I mean EVERY product can't be the SAFEST version of that product... that's not how first place works.", 'This one specifically references the belt having an “unusual design”. How many other treadmills have a similar design with a similar gap?', "> A dumbbell dropped on your moms face could kill her.\n\nNot by itself.\n\n> A resistance band could strangle your family member.\n\nNot easily if accidental.\n\n> A yoga mat could kill a baby if they swallowed a piece.\n\nNot if it's in good repair.\n\nPeloton can do it easily, by itself and in good repair.", 'Don’t want to get too into the weeds here, but we could be at a moment where standards shift.  It’s happened with product liability in the past: \n\nNormally, companies can avoid negligence claims by showing they meet industry standards.  But what’s considered reasonable can itself shift and the industry standard itself gets shown to be a negligent standard, so that no longer serves as a defense\n\nMy suspicion is that’s happening here, and the government is pushing for exactly that, with obvious good reason imho.  They chose Peleton as an example and a warning is my guess', 'Sounds like a *deliciously* fun machine', "Seems like the whole issue could be solved by some sort of covering on the back, no? something that looks like a car bumper. \n\nIt wouldn't look as cool but I have to think that would be easier than building in a resistance sensor for something people are sprinting on.", "I don't know..? I was comparing Peloton to a typical treadmill.", 'The fact that you called her “the broad” lmao.  It’s fucking insane that a $4000 device can’t have basic safety features.  What in the absolute fuck are you even paying for?', 'All Im saying is that I know for a fact the case I saw paraded around this thread where the treadmill was in a kid’s messy playroom, toys strewn about with the kids unsupervised playing on it, meaning they had access to the key and it was plugged in and ready to go... that is 1000% avoidable. Just like not leaving boiling water on the edge of the stove so a kid grabs the handle and pulls the pot onto themselves. Just like making sure your kid wears a helmet while biking around. There’s some element of personal responsibility, lots of things have inherent risks that can be avoided if you take the proper precautions.\n\nIt’s not 100% black or white. Some blame rests on the parents here. They made the recall for a reason, yes, there is a design flaw. But it shouldn’t be controversial to suggest maybe parents should be aware of the dangers they bring into a kid’s playroom by putting a fucking treadmill there and leaving the key/power to it. The fact that Peloton can act as a scapegoat here doesn’t excuse that, imo.', 'Yes, what do you think this even is? Solving Fermats last theorem? It’s a basic problem that can be solved.  Not building a particle accelerator.', "you are at best trading one failure mode for another. Narrow gap at the end of the high powered belt can catch hair, fingers and it can absolutely deglove a finger or two.\nThere is a reason you should have your shoelaces tied on an escalator and you should not put your hairy dog on it. High-powered belts intended to overcome tons of resistance generally don't fuck around.\n\nAlso most treadmills use a smooth, continuous belt, which allows for the gap between it and the guard to be very narrow. In case of a slat treadmill that gap would have to be a bit wider to account for the lack of flexibility of individual slats. It would absolutely catch fingers and grind them into a pulp.", 'This is your friendly reminder that the American Association of Pedetricians recommend not using trampolines ever.\n\nLots of every day stuff that kills or paralyzes children', "And the thing everyone is convinced will fix the problem, probably won't, or is actively impossible with the way these machines are built. Otherwise at least one of the companies that make these machines would have done it. None of them have.", "Just because it's already kinda dangerous doesn't give a company automatic permission to make it *more* dangerous (and save a few bucks in the process).", "It's perfectly feasible to put the treadmill key on your keyring and not leave it in the treadmill though", 'A lot of people just shouldn’t be parents', "Use-case risk is based upon normal use and not inappropriate use, so that's not really something that is typically considered (risk due to misuse of product).", "So should all treadmills be banned for personal use then? That requirement isn't specific to these treadmills.", 'There are hundreds of things in a typical house that regularly hurt kids and do not default to a safe state. Off the top of my head I can think of the stove top, cleaning chemical bottles, stairs, and swimming pools. A safety recall is a good idea but ultimately the parents are at fault for not using the safety features.', 'Also a sensor to determine if the belt is snagged, which most expensive treadmills now have.', ">They're still dangerous of course, but this is negligent design\n\nMore like they didn't design for stupidity.  FFS in the linked video the treadmill's running and these kids are unsupervised.", "Seriously, how does the thing not have any motor stall sensing? It's not expensive or complicated to implement.", "> Some have sensors that will detect something getting under the belt.\n\nFor as expensive as the device is, how this isn't a thing when my cheap-ass treadmill has the feature is absolutely *astounding* and negligent. It's easy to build into a treadmill. And cheap.", "Almost all treadmills do, but I've never seen anyone remove it when the device isn't in use.", "So I can't use the treadmill if my children are in the house? They might come into the room. Most treadmills I would not be concerned about it sucking my child into it while I'm using it.", "Again, just like the peloton, there are already safety precautions (if you didn't read cause I don't think you did, it it's lock the door to the room, unplug the peloton, or take out the kill switch, or even just watch your fucking kid) \n\nI don't know what your obsession is with strawman fallacies but both of your replies literally don't argue any valid points.\n\nIf a parent **leaves bleach uncapped, medecine not in the medecine cabinet, or child safety locks off, who is to blame? Please tell me** (just like leaving a peleton with all the safety features off) because it *has* happened and there is no recall, the parent is just an idiot", 'It’s a treadmill. It’s going to be an eyesore', "It's a great treadmill to run on. And yeah the classes are worth the money. It like having a gym membership with unlimited classes, for myself and my wife, in the comfort and convenience of my own home. Not sure why you're so hostile.", "Or to make something that would trap fingers and suck in shoelaces. I'm pretty sure neither of us is an mechanical engineer.", 'Exactly.  People just don’t realize how stupid people are.', 'Kind of the point. The whole argument on Peloton catching this because they’re a premium item is flawed.', 'Even guns have basic safety measures built in. And guns that don’t lead to manufacturers being sued https://www.cnn.com/interactive/2018/06/investigates/sig-sauer-p320-drop-fire/', 'They initiated the process which is why the company is doing it now \n\nthey said hey do a recall the company said go fuck yourself they said OK we’re going to force you to and started to do the legal work and then the company did the recall', 'I drove a pinto panel wagon at one time. I was always ready to bail out when it caught fire.', 'I think that the difference is risk due to regular operation vs risk due to engineering or manufacturing', '……….\n\nDo you realize what you’re comparing (legit apples and oranges) or are you trolling?\n\nWhat statistics are you pulling and what is the root cause of the deaths and injuries?\n\nPinto was rightfully sued because they refused to recall a car they knew had a failure.\n\nKids are dying on skateboards for either not wearing proper equipment, doing tricks they aren’t ready for (even with equipment), or maybe getting hit by a car.\n\nPower that’s outside of birdhouse or Tony Hawk.\n\nYou’re also comparing a simple system (a board, trucks, wheels, and skater - who makes a choice to wear a helmet or not) to a complex system (a car with multiple components and systems and a driver who burns to death from a fender bender).\n\nRead up on the Pinto case. You’d see your assumption is severely flawed.', "He isn't wrong about it being stupid though. You don't let your toddler fuck around with your car or your knife collection or your oven while it's on unsupervised do you? How exactly is this piece of home equipment any different than any of the countless other things that can and do cause injuries to people using them irresponsibly in the home?\n\nShould Calphalon have to do a recall on their pots and issue safety lids because a kid pulled a boiling pot of water down on their face from the stove because the parents weren't paying attention?", "22,500 annual treadmill injuries in the usa and 17 deaths over the last 3 years.  Not sure how a single death involving a peleton is suddenly so damning to them but let's not let th facts get in the way of a good story.  The parents with the dead kid should be blamed for not protecting their child from a dangerous piece of equipment.", "It was already super overvalued and having a slow correction anyways, this is just putting it on hyperdrive. I don't think we've seen a bottom yet.", 'Now is the time to buy when they’re spending big cash to fix all treadmills? Say goodbye to the quarterly earnings... Maybe as a quick trade because of the news cycles.', "Eh, the pandemic is slowly going away, people won't be stuck in their homes anymore and won't need to exercise inside.", 'I should have said, they were pushing it hard like a month ago as something we should switch to after forgetting GME lol.', "This is exactly what Peloton wanted you to do. It's why they delayed the recall (despite knowing it wasn't without merit) to just before earnings.\n\nCompanies do this often, to dampen effect on the stock.\n\nThat being said, I wouldn't recommend buying PTON, despite treads only being 2% of their revenue. This would be immaterial for any company, but the main feature of this company is their do-good brand (which let's them charge premiums a la Apple) and this event especially around safety will hurt them. Not to mention, receiving returns of huge treadmills is going to be very expensive financially and logistically, and this is an out for folks waiting for their treads for months AND for those who'd just rather go to the gyms now", 'Yeah I’m not so sure about that. The price flew up as people were financing $2,000-$3000 for a fancy looking stationary bike along with a $39/mo subscription.\n\nMade a little sense at the time as gyms were closed but paying $80/mo for 1 piece of gym equipment is silly when a gym membership is $35/mo with limited commitments and various machines. The ride is over and other companies like NordicTrac and Echelon are taking note.\n\nOh and the whole “our machines kill kids” part kind of hurts the brand image.', "This is like a market analysis simulator. Do you think the world needs Peloton? They had a good marketing push right when gyms closed for Covid. There's nothing special about the product. There are literally dozens of businesses making exercise equipment and YouTube workouts are a thing. Why do you think Peloton would survive this and be more valuable?", 'Right now as gyms reopen, the sun comes out and people consider returning to the office is probably not the right time to invest in a exercise machine company. Recall or not.', 'It’s super over valued either way. They’re following the tried and true formula of: sell something that has existed for decades(treadmills), slap an app or some shit on that baby and call yourself a tech company=multi billion dollar company for no reason\n\nI.e We Work', 'Even now, PTON has a P/E ratio of over 163, which is ridiculous. For reference, Apple has a P/E ratio of 29.', 'The long con!', '[removed]', '$2000 plus the $50 monthly fee', "Two things: it's priced that way to seem high quality. They could sell it for less, but the brand is high quality hence the high cost and it works. Second, the bike is okay, having power feedback is nice, but the real feature is the classes, which you can do live or you can do any previous class and there are a lot of classes and big variety of types of classes. My girlfriends sister uses her subscription to do the yoga classes. My girlfriend started doing the weights classes a few months ago along with the rides. Final point, most of the people doing classes all the time are upper class professionals like doctors and lawyers. You can scroll through the leaderboard for classes and I would say >50% of the user names are doctor or lawyer related.", 'In Peloton’s defense, it’s a great treadmill for serious running. I pretty frequently hit a 6 minute mile pace or below running intervals, and the vast majority of cheaper treadmills can’t handle that safely. The same goes for serious inclines - the peloton goes up to 15%, and stays sturdy at pretty high speeds even at that incline. The slatted belt provides a road-like experience. \n\nHowever, based on the leaderboard present for every class, I think that very few people are using it at the speeds and inclines that make it worthwhile.', 'yeah i dont get it either. At a garage sale i got a tread mill for 150$. Sold it for 200 a year later.   \nWhat am i missing thats so special about peloton?', 'Get any of this equipment secondhand and strap and iPad and Apple fitness+ on it. \n\nI don’t have equipment at all (besides some dumbbells) and Apple fitness+ got me through the winter. I fucking love it. Connects w/ Apple Watch if you’ve got one and tells you on screen where you are with your rings, HR compared to others who have done the workout, etc', "> to my budget\n\nThey were much more of a status symbol than they are exercise equipment. People didn't buy them because they were good tools, they bought them because then they can say they have a Peloton.", 'Some people have a bigger budget than you do.\n\nPeloton is not replacing la fitness memberships, it is replacing equinox memberships.', ' I can’t wrap my head around it either. I spent $80 on a super old commercial elliptical that weighs about 6000lbs and kindly asked my dear husband to move it from the seller’s garage to my den. I’m redditing on it right now. So many women I know are buying pelotons or have bought them in the last few months. Not for me. 💅', 'Or at least know you’ll use the thing before you buy it! \n\nI ran outside for a couple years, only used the treadmill in the apartment complex gym when it was terrible out. When I got my house, I knew I’d use a treadmill, and now use it more than I run outside. Totally worth the $1500. \n\nIf I wanted to get an elliptical, spin bike, etc, I’d probably join a cheap gym for a few months just to see how I like the equipment before I spent hundreds/thousands.', "Depends on your use case. We got a very nice treadmill ($1500 or so) last may, and until weather started getting nice about 2 weeks ago, I was using it 4x/week (total of around 20-25 miles/week) and my husband was using it 3x/week (around 10-12 miles/week). Usage has gone down a little bit with nice weather, but each of us still uses it at least 1-2x/week. We knew we would use it regularly, so we paid for a high quality one that wouldn't break quickly. In our area, at least half the year is not good weather for running, and running with 2 children who are off school in the summer is a pain, so it's not going to be a clothes rack...", 'I somewhat agree. I actually used to prefer running, but I\'m 6\'4" and am getting old so I\'m starting to worry about high impact exercising. The stationary bike is definitely nice and I look forward to using it every day. It feels different than most stationary bikes, the trainers are motivating, and the training program automatically controls your resistance. I could control that on my own but it requires discipline. This makes it easier. It\'s actually starting to peak my interest in cycling and am thinking about getting a nice bike to use outside along with the stationary bike. Honestly, if I could get my wife to regularly use it with me, I would feel justified in the cost. With all that being said, I would never spend this much on a piece of exercise equipment in my life if my wife didn\'t want it to begin with. It\'s difficult to turn your wife down when it\'s something that will improve her health.', "It's not for people like you, its for people with disposable income who want coaching and something stylish in their home", ">A 2000 single piece of equipment that only does one thing is unjustifiable to my budget.\n\nI dropped a thousand for a rower. I've done 3 million meters so far, and am shooting for another million in the next three months. The cost is all about whether you use it or not.", "I mean - not when it's raining or snowing or 100 degrees out or you have really bad allergies.  I don't know - I can see why the Peloton is more appealing.", "Well they're not paying the environmental cost of full replacement every 2 years, for one.", "Idk, Nespresso changed my life.  One button to push.  Easy to clean.  One cup for about a dollar.  I did the math and the thing paid for itself (when I stopped going to Starbucks) in about a month. \n\nIs it a fancy expresso machine by any stretch of the imagination? Heck no.  But it's still pretty great.", '🥳🥳 \n\nThat is called a Covid come-up!', 'Selling an item you own as used is illegal? Wtf are you talking about?', 'Ya exactly, get a life', ">without the key it won't work.\n\nWhich is why the lazy ones just leave it in.", 'Better than always looking to suck some corporations dick.', "Preferably someone/something with more money than them, because all bad things that happen are caused others have more than me /s\n\nIt's pitiful how far they go to evade blame. We're talking about the political party that wants to sue gun makers for homicides, they hate acknowledging where the blame actually goes.", "The damning bit about Peloton is that other treadmill brands worked this out decades ago. It is not like this is a new concept where the safety measure is only for the latest and greatest brands.\n\nThey choose form over function in an industry where safety considerations were already well worked out. Bodily injury was the result.\n\n> I mean EVERY product can't be the SAFEST version of that product... \n\nAnd this is where you are correct. They can't be the safest, but Peloton is significantly less safe than even budget brands.", "I haven't seen any of their ads showing the view of them exercising in a garage..", 'Verse a bar across where a kid gets a different type of injury. there are so many dumbass people on this thread. “Oh add a laser sensor to auto shut off if no one is on it”. Oh ok bud. And you’re the same person bitching about how overpriced it is. \n\nPeople love to complain. Common sense goes out the window so quick. Yeah we can add sensors and keys and cushioned side protectors and alarms OR you keep your kid from sticking it’s head inside a machine. I dunno???', 'Most of the accidents have occurred while people are using the machine and in addition to the documented accidents with children God knows how many pets have been injured and killed because peloton is not required to disclose that', 'First of all, I do think they are responsible for correcting their design. Clearly this is a design flaw. However, I don’t think you’re truly appreciating the challenges associated with changing a design that’s in-flight. \n\nFirst they would have to update their designs, redo at least a portion of their validation testing to ensure functionality, design the manufacturing unit operations that would add the component, work with a systems integrator to build those unit ops’, mange any logistical challenges with procuring and storing the parts, design and order the manufacturing equipment necessary to satisfy the process, install said equipment and train manufacturing operators to use it, develop quality control methods and SOPs to test the functionality of the new safety component, validate the manufacturing process, and then re start the line.', 'I know you were trying to help and I should’ve been more clear but I was definitely being sarcastic I think peloton shit the bed in three or four major ways with this machine', 'Not being argumentative, but I wonder what the risk is. Any physical activity can kill you. "Is it safer than me driving to work" is usually my go-to metric.', 'Ugh my in laws just got a trampoline for their house. At least it has the big net thing around it and no exposed springs', 'There are four separate things that could make this machine safer the belt guard at the back is the simplest to retrofit. In addition to that there should be a complete under tray, the rear of the machine should sit lower to the ground and not have space for anything to get underneath the moving belt, and most importantly there should be a automatic safety cut off if the belt experiences an unusual amount of resistance but instead of that this machine simply torques up the motor and pulls harder', "I think you misunderstand, I'm not saying Peloton shouldn't have done better, I'm saying the scenario that allowed this to happen should never have happened in the first place.", 'What is more dangerous about their treadmills? I’ve been reading about it and can’t figure it out.', 'Sure, but it’s also very inaccurate to call it a baby killing machine because parents weren’t watching their kids', "That's not what anyone is saying, nor are we blaming the victim - the child.  We're blaming the parents who leave their children unattended around things that can harm them.", "The treadmill had no feature that stops the belt if it massively slows down due to things like a pet or baby being jammed underneath it. It just kept grinding away no matter what. This is a standard feature on any decent treadmill made in the last twenty years. Should people have kids and pets in the room while using it?\n\nHell no but that doesn't change the fact pelatons lack of including a cheap and effective feature made it even more dangerous. They made a four thousand dollar treadmill that didn't take basic and common safety into account, that's being negligent as well!", "A device intended to be placed in thousands of ordinary homes must be designed for average, sometimes careless people.  \n\nThis means you can't have an exposed belt high enough off the ground without adding a belt guard or jam detector.\n\nThis is an unsafe design that never should have been sold to the public.", 'Sure, but companies have teams of lawyers and engineers. I would be surprised if some of these problems weren’t discussed internally before these treadmills even came off the line.\n\nIt’s the companies job to do due diligence on their shit because people are pretty stupid and don’t really consider everything when buying shit.', "Oh, the humanity! Won't we think of the mega corporations!", 'So Ford and the Pinto really was just an accident problem. They should have not gotten in accidents, negligence as you say.', 'Use case risk may be based on that, but safety design is 100% designed with misuse/negligence in mind.', "What's specific to these treadmills is the use of segmented treads, like tractor treads, that catch things and pull them under.  That's the problem here, not the key.", 'Many of those things have been designed to be safer over time, or have secondary products that make them default to a safer state (such as child gates for stairs).', "With adult supervision, this treadmill has injured and killed. That video isn't the only report.", 'Suggesting adults visually monitor their school-aged children for 24-hours-a-day is absurd, and a major contributor to the underdevelopment of younger generations.', '> It looks like in the video the treadmill isnt powered on but rather the girl is moving the tread under her own power and her brother gets pulled under. Notice that she stops moving the second her brother gets stuck.\n\nNo, it is definitely powered and running. It stops because the ball temporarily jams it. Note after the girl leaves it starts grinding the boys face and dragging him under.', '>If you compare peloton machines to other treadmills you will notice that other treadmills have something blocking the undercarriage. This wouldnt prevent all injuries but would prevent a child from being pulled under.\n\n\nYou don’t even need to compare to other brands, their other treadmill is as safe as a treadmill can be', "You **have** to design for stupidity. You have to have redundant safety measures. That's the whole point of safeguards. If something can be dragged by the belt underneath the treadmill, that's negligent design.", "Typical Redditor: Helicopter parenting is why I'm a socially crippled incel NEET.\n\nAlso Typical Redditor: YOU'RE A STUPID, HORRIBLE PARENT FOR NOT CONSTANTLY WATCHING YOUR KIDS!\n\nA kid can have the best parents in the world and still fall victim to household hazards.", 'When the vast majority of other treadmills have more safety features at a much lower price, it becomes negligence and greed. Most other treadmills designed for stupidity but the product manager of a $4200 treadmill could not be arsed to do basic market research? Bullshit.', 'And this is why all companies design for stupidity and engineers include factor of safety. You know people will go beyond said stated rules, they know that people will drive faster than the speed limit and design the curves, sags, and crests for 5-10 mph higher than stated. People are dumb, people do not follow rules, and people are careless. And companies try to account for this.', "Everything is designed in that way to some degree. People who think they are being very cautious are still relying on a ton of safety measures but insist on being smug about it.\n\nVery few people could handle everyday life with all safeguards removed. That's a function of all the inherently dangerous but convenient shit we use, not because we are all inept.", 'Workout equipment is inherently dangerous. There is a reason why Fischer-Price doesn’t make squat rack, treadmills, et cetera. It is on the parents to make sure their kids don’t mess around with it.\n\nEdit: probably an unpopular opinion. Standing by for down votes.', 'Yet I bet almost all treadmills say not to have kids near at any time and other accidents have happened with kids nearby running treadmills.', 'Keeping the Peloton in an unlocked room is equivalent to leaving the closed bleach out. Bleach not having a child-proof lid is equivalent to Peloton not having common safety features on their treadmill that all the other manufacturers have had for decades.', 'No but I’m pretty sure all of the people that designed the treadmills that aren’t eating the babies are and since all of those do you have that piece…\n\nAnd not only that but frankly a twisted ankle or even a degloved finger is preferable to a dead baby', 'Agree to disagree...\n\nA cheap item will have less checks and oversight whereas a premium product will.', 'I applaud you for talking to a wall for that long. At least you tried lol. And your username made it even funnier.', 'Why doesn’t this happen with other treadmills then? You are comparing apples with oranges when you compare a treadmill to a car or an oven. Real question should be whether other treadmills have similar issues or did they incorporate design elements at extra cost to avoid this from happening. It’s bizarre how often people can cook up these random analogies and think they are somehow on to something that everyone else missed!', 'Clearly he was wrong though and clearly he knew he was wrong. It’s weird you’re defending it. But there’s also someone who super eager to suck some capitalist Cock. Guess it’s you', "You're a moron.  Their treadmills don't meet basic safety requirements and they did nothing.  I'd bet you advocate against seatbelts too as it's a person's choice to drive or not, right?", "You sound like you don't have kids, so victim blaming it is then I guess.\n\nYour facts don't help make the situation any less sad or shitty for anyone. \n\nIt's the response to that death that's the most disgusting. But uhh sure, it's the parents fault somehow that peloton released a dangerous product and for a kid being a kid. Makes perfect sense.", 'Look, a fucking moron in the wild!', 'The potential energy of that big cash is reflected in the 15% or so they dropped today. The question is whether or not that will turn out to be a reasonable drop or whether there is further uncertainty down the road (like a pending lawsuit, etc).', 'In theory that is now priced in', "You could say the same thing about nordictrac and echelon, and all the other home exercise equipment, yet these companies were all making sales before the pandemic too.  Home exercise equipment in general is a luxury product that's more often than not a huge waste of money, but so are gym memberships. People who subscribe and don't show up but are too lazy to cancel make up a non-trivial amount of revenue in this product space, and that's not gonna change when the pandemic is over. All those people who financed a treadmill? Still have to pay for the treadmill even when the gym opens back up, but now they have the treadmill so maybe they'll keep the subscription. \n\nThe target demographic for Peloton was never Joe Nobody whos gonna hem and haw over a $10 Planet Fitness subscription or the hardcore gym rats in the first place, and the real business model is subscriptions and harvesting demographic information, not profiting off overpriced treadmills.\n\nIn two weeks the internet will move on to being outraged by some other thing, the stock will go back up, and nobody will remember or care about the kid who got killed by a Peloton. In six months itll keep trending upward and maybe you decide to sell for a nice profit, or maybe you hold for a year hoping they get bought or merge. Investing in these kinds of public startups is never a stock you buy with the intention of sitting on it until retirement.", 'Does the world "need" Peloton? Of course not, but so little of what happens on Wall Street is rooted in what\'s actually a good product or company.\n\nTheyre going to survive this because while it\'s all over social media today, our society has the attention span of a gnat and two weeks from now nobody is gonna give a shit about the kid that got swept under a treadmill. It\'s certainly not going to make the target demographic for Peloton products stop buying them.\n\nSix months from now? It might get brought up in the occasional reddit thread by some hard-core anti-capitalist poster making a "I \'member" joke, but the rest of the world is going to totally forget about the whole thing and go on not caring. It sounds harsh, but it was one kid out of almost 2 billion dollars in revenue from subscriptions and exercise equipment, it\'s not like their entire product line or their core business idea is endemically harming their customers. \n\nThe whole game of making money in the stock market is to buy low and sell high, and these knee jerk media reactions are a dime a dozen. The stock of an otherwise appreciating or stable company dips down because of some bad press and then goes back up as the news fades and people stop caring. The stock is essentially on sale right now.\n\nNow is Peloton a buy and hold kind of stock? That\'s a totally different question. But if you were looking for a stock to snatch up at a discount with high confidence that it will be worth more in a couple months than it is today, taking advantage of the controversy is just playing the game and that\'s why all the big finance gurus have been calling it a buy. Whether or not the company is profitable or there\'s competing products is mostly irrelevant, clearly people have been buying these stupid overpriced Pelotons for whatever reason and they\'re not gonna stop because of this.', "When the stock is cheap is exactly the time to buy, it's not the time to *sell*. It's not like exercise machines and virtual gym membership services are suddenly going to disappear because its summer, and they existed before the pandemic.\n\nThen you wait six months, or a year, they release a new product or get bought or something and the stock surges, and you sell for a profit.", 'No argument there, but anybody buying stocks because they believe in the product is doing it super wrong to begin with :p', 'Just as women, collectively, planned all along.', '2000 just to pay an extra gym fee on top? Is there like social networking built in or something?', "Best part is, if you don't have the $2000 bike you only pay $13/month for an individual subscription.\n\nThe bike more than triples the cost of your monthly subscription because it forces you to pay for what is essentially a family plan.", 'Holy shit, P.T. Barnum was right.', 'Yikes why not just get a pair of running shoes', 'It actually isn’t. They lose money on the bikes which they make back on the subscriptions.', 'I’m not a gym type so I’m curious what a class on stationary bike riding gets you beyond just riding it on your own. Someone telling you to pedal faster or slower or something? Or is it more that you’ll feel more pressured to actually do it if there’s a live human?', '> You can scroll through the leaderboard for classes and I would say >50% of the user names are doctor or lawyer related.\n\nLike they put MD after their last name or their are people registered as Doctor Who?', 'You can get treadmills capable of handling 12 mph and 15 percent grade for half of a Tread+.', ' Peloton equipment is connected and has online classes with instructors as well as achievements and shit they try and make it like going to the gym.  \n\nI just have a cheap stationary bike and cycle while watching YouTube cycling vids.', 'A little man inside a TV that yells at you', 'A huge range if classes that you can do live or after the fact. There are hundreds of classes at this point.', "I don't understand all the Peloton hate. It's a premium product. You can say the exact same thing about.... anything that is more expensive than the cheapest option in the category. What am I missing that's so special about BMW? Samsung Galaxy/IPhone? Nike sneakers? Brand name cereal?\n\n\nPeople who have the money to spend and care about the difference in experience/quality will buy it. And others will buy $150 treadmills.", "wow man you bought a cheap piece of shit and don't get why people with decent incomes want something stylish in their home with online connectivity and classes....really?", 'This is a really cynical way to look at it my guy. We got a Peloton in February of 2020 and while I wouldn’t quite go so far as to say that it’s saved my life, it has quite literally prevented me from having much worse mental health issues during the pandemic. I’ve lost weight, stopped drinking and smoking, go outside on long walks regularly, have started doing yoga and meditating, and am eating better. Not because of the stupid device itself, but it definitely has nudged me in the right direction to the point where I’d say it’s been worth every dime. And this is just me without factoring in my wife. I continue using it several times a week and I’d easily say it’s been instrumental in improving my life. So, yeah, that’s one guy’s story, I’m clearly biased and my results may be atypical because apparently lots of people in this thread use it as a glorified clothes hanger. I hope you’ll consider my story and maybe not judge everyone so harshly.', "Yeah, those are both totally outside my sphere of knowledge.   160bpm playlist is usually the extent of my exercise equipment.  Interesting to know there's a market out there for that stuff though", "Lmfao, some peopl just have more disposable income than you to the point where 1-2k isn't a big deal. And the target audience is these people.", "Damn... I don't know you, or what you're all about.  But that comment came off as classist as fuuuuuuuuuuuuck.", 'You can get a bike trainer for that, it holds your bike in place and you use it inside. I got one of the top models off EBay for a third of the price.', "My machine was mostly entirely made of metal so there wasn't really much of an environmental cost when I did replace it.", 'Poached eggs are clearly the best eggs....  \nEspecially over savory oatmeal....   \n^with ^a ^bit ^of ^sharp ^cheese...   \n^^and ^^maybe ^^some ^^almonds....', "lol waffles and fried chicken. i don't care i'll even throw on some sunny side eggs for some yolk dipping", 'I mean, I read the book “The power of Habit” some years ago, but that’s more a “How habits work” book than how habits fail. In my mom’s case a book on hoarding might be better suited, but there’s something else to it. If there’s no english language word for it, there must be a german one, but it’s something akin why poor people who win the lottery almost invariably spend it all, or why people become obsessed with collecting Hummel figures. There’s some sort of signaling involved in the psychology. You want to be the kind of person that your friends would be impressed by, so you start making purchases to that goal, without the self-awareness or motivation to actually follow through. It’s a situation where your pocketbook is more easily leveraged then your habits, so you throw money at the wall in the hopes that something will stick.\n\nedit: If *you* can think of what that’s called, I’d like to read on it.', "Better than always trying to milk someone richer than you every time you make a mistake. Try some personal responsibility, I know it's frowned upon by modern liberals but it would do you some good.", 'I don’t know what you’re ranting about. There are many treadmills which are not appearing in the news over injuries. I was curious if the aforementioned thread had any treadmills with the same design.\n\nKeep in mind that any injury is bad but if a simple design change that could have prevented this was overlooked, whether it’s for aesthetics or profit, can be the start of a problem (which is why I was curious about other designs).', 'Seems doable if it means people don’t get mangled or killed by your product.  But not all people value that it seems.', "I dunno, something about a physical activity that involves children flying through the air like projectiles seems slightly more risky to me.\n\nI did chip someone's tooth on my way down from a bounce once.  Kicked them right in the face and chipped their tooth.  Accidentally, I swear.", 'Single kid on a trampoline not terribly dangerous. Multiple kids on a trampoline is broken bone and concussion city.', "No offense, but that's a shitty metric. 1.35 million people are killed annually in auto accidents. I sure wouldn't want my kid to be rolling the dice with those numbers.", 'Three things. Almost every other treadmill on the market has a simple piece of plastic protecting the rear of the belt and keeping anything from coming into contact with the part of the belt think it’s pulled under the machine. Second this machines belt since much higher off the ground creating more space for a much larger objects to potentially get pulled under, and third the belt emergency stop is so ineffective that even with a full grown adult human on top of the treadmill and something as large as a 18 inch Beachball getting sucked under it the belt continues to spin at full speed', "At least it's not aquadots. Turns out someone decided to use GHB in making these very edible looking toys.\n\nNo it wasn't the 50s, this happened less than 10 years ago", 'A kid jumping around doing backflips and landing wrong, even on the trampoline can greatly hurt themselves.', "The complete under tray is impossible because the belt hangs to the ground. To make it low enough to protect the belt without the belt rubbing on the ground would impair the way the machine functions. Likewise for the back guard. It would make it impossible it for retrofitted machines to incline properly if it was sturdy enough to be of any use. Likewise for making the machine lower. When on zero incline the belt is about 1 inch above the floor. Can't really be lowered without a complete redesign. Some sort of detector that shuts it off when it encounters resistance would probably work and is likely what they will do. It will have to be done right or every time a fat person takes a step on the tread it will shut down for safety.", "For a lot of people their homes aren't so large that a room your kid plays in and your exercise room are mutually exclusive. And it's not even just a wealth things, tons of people live in small places.", 'If you look at the treadmill, you can see that the running surface just wraps around the device, fully exposed on all sides (top and bottom).\n\nThere needs to be a guard that wraps around the back and underneath to prevent anything from getting sucked under.', 'It’s like a belt sander turned upside down. No guard, so things (and pets/infants) can get sucked under it. I understand the sleek aesthetic they were going for but this was either willful neglect or stupidity in design.', 'But parents could leave their kids around the ones *with the guardrails* and not have their babies killed. \n\nThe Peloton without the guardrails literally killed a baby. So not really unfair to call it a baby killing machine.', "Why is it inaccurate to call a machine that killed babies a baby killing machine?\n\nEspecially when these machines don't happen to have the safety guards other machines do.", 'You cannot watch kids at every waking moment. Did your parents watch you at all times or did you ever do anything that on retrospect was dangerous?', "The safety guards are standard practice. Peloton chose to leave them off. \n\nIt's dangerous for anyone, not just children. Imagine an adult falling while running and landing at the back and then getting sucked under. It's crazy.", "They specifically made a more dangerous version of an existing product.\n\nYou make it sound like peloton invented the entire idea of a treadmill.  Treadmills already exist.  The possibility of getting pulled under and seriously injured or killed was already known, and solved.\n\nPeloton removed that safety.  Maybe to save a few bucks on the plastic, maybe because it's more aesthetically pleasing like this... doesn't matter.  They took an existing product, made a more dangerous version of that product, and it killed someone.", 'So when a company irresponsibility releases a dangerous product that kills a child, the parents aren’t the victim?\n\nI’m sure they’ll be happy to hear that.', "And for the fucking price these things are, safety features shouldn't be *lacking*. \n\nI could buy a normal treadmill for each person in my family for the price of these things.", '[removed]', "Not 100%, no. Safety will be based upon risks associated with electrical, mechanical, and materials, with that broken down into specific categories such as electrical shock, physical impacts such as moving parts and damage during transport, and material safety/effectiveness. A well-designed system will be taking a large number of risks into account but to be completely honest it's often impossible to account for misuse/negligence. A company can't plan for someone removing a guardrail or shorting their product's power cord, etc. So, one has to consider how to minimize risks to the utmost, but there is a limitation to that dictated by reasonableness and cost.\n\nNow, in this case obviously this treadmill needed a guardrail and that is a foreseeable risk that should have been addressed - and honestly isn't even a risk related to misuse or negligence.  Any person, if they caught the tread wrong, has the possibility of getting sucked under or having a body part mangled. This could be considered a mechanical or use risk, and if the FMEAs were done properly, should have been documented and addressed.  In this case it clearly wasn't.", "But if they key was removed properly and instructions followed like no pets or kids during operation (which every treadmill also states) then there wouldn't be any issues.", 'Stairs are safer if somebody spend additional time and money to purchase a product. The treadmill comes with a key already. I am looking at a bunch of cleaning products right now. None have safety tops. What has been done to stovetops to improve their safety?', 'That video isn’t even the death, that kid survived.', "Toddlers aren't school aged and definitely need adult supervision.  I've seen 3 year old boys try to throw themselves down flights of stairs and stab themselves with staplers.\n\nMost household items are unsafe for kids.  If you need a break from the kids you need a toddler safe room or a very secure crib.", "If you're not going to be monitoring your children, put them somewhere they won't hurt themselves. That's bare minimum parenting.", 'Making something childproof that’s not made for children is dumb and excessive. Not everything has to be catered to children. If parents left a knife in the room would you say it’s the knife’s fault for not being childproof?', "Yep, and it's the fact that there's a simple and cheap solution to this potentially horrifying problem that their industry peers have already adapted that makes it really clear cut  negligence imo (if the plaintiffs find that they were aware of this risk but decided to go with this design anyway it actually ought to be something more than negligence)", 'This is what irritates the shit out of me. What do these ppl thing safety features even fucking are?\n\nThey’re literally designed for the most stupid & negligent amongst us. \n\nThey also obviously exist for all the morons who have zero concept of what goes into designing safety features. I just don’t understand why the most ignorant speak the loudest about shit they don’t know.', 'While I agree, you should design for safety, exercise equipment in general is just unsafe for children that young. This treadmill could have more safe designs but if you let your toddlers play on an operating treadmill, you risk injury.', 'Yeah that’s the response I’m seeing when all it takes is one second to turn around and your kid is gone.', "I'm sorry, but I don't think you should own exercise equipment in a house full of children if you can't afford a separate room to keep the children away from it or some kind of childproofing barrier. You don't need to have a constant eye on your children in your house but you do need to make sure dangerous stuff isn't easy to get ahold of.", 'What kind of false equivalence is this?  Helicopter parenting is spoken of negatively here in relation to teenagers / young adults, not fucking toddlers that could just as easily pull down a flat screen TV on themselves.', 'If it was any other way lithium batteries could just come with a sticker giving charging specs and time.', 'They do make a dumbbell and kettlebell set though :)\n\nhttps://www.amazon.com/dp/B0856SSDPJ/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_awdb_imm_WDZM41XP21BGVVM069MP', '"Workout equipment is inherently dangerous." \n\nManufacturer\'s have a duty to implement reasonable engineering controls to mitigate dangerous equipment. Not a new concept.\n\nWhen you rely only on procedural controls in risk assessment (like parents watching their kids closely) you are signing on for injuries and deaths. Lot\'s of people like to parent-shame, but that is just the reality.\n\nIn cases where the only possible safety measure is a procedural control then the gravity of the danger needs to be communicated with 100% clarity. Especially if your product is more dangerous than similar products that people are used to.', "Yes and if bleach is left out of a cabinet where a child can get to it and the child does get to it and finds a way to open it/puncture it, the parent is indeed at fault for leaving it out\n\nYes bleach without a child safety lock is equivalent to a treadmill without common safety features (like a kill switch), but unfortunately for your argument the peloton has these all the same safety features as treadmills for decades. I'm gonna assume you don't understand what a kill switch is, it's also known as a safety key, the thing that does not allow the treadmill to run if it's not attached to the treadmill. \n\nThe only problem with the peloton is that it is raised and leaves room for a child to get sucked under if the treadmill is on, for example if a parent ignores all safety features and doesn't watch their small child cause they're  an idiot\n\nThank you for proving my point, anything else?", "The dead child thing is a tragedy. As a parent myself my heart goes out to them. As a peloton owner, I'm not turning it in. It's amazing to run on and I use it in a way that doesn't endanger my children or pets.", "IT DOES happen with other treadmills... that's the whole point. It happens constantly with all kinds of things that we have in the home that are very useful but can also be dangerous...\n\nhttps://www.marketwatch.com/story/when-exercising-too-much-can-be-fatal-2015-05-05", 'What a very mature and reasonable response. The irony is how superior you probably believe yourself to be despite your username lol. I often find the thing people claim they hate is exactly the thing they themselves do constantly.', "Not that you deserve a response for your childish reply... but there is a point at which the individual does take responsibility. Recalling because the person chose not to use the safety features of a product is moronic. It's like saying Honda should be forced to do a recall because a driver chose not to wear a seatbelt and died a preventable death.\n\nDon't bother to respond I won't see it.", "I have 2 kids and have had 2 treadmills.  Never even once left it running and walked away.  Plain stupid.  Sorry.  It's just plain stupid.", "So it's not the parents fault if a kid shoots himself with dads gun either, right? Wouldn't want to victim blame, makes perfect sense.", 'Bad news corrections don’t always come to fruit in a day, market likes to take time to digest how bad or good it’ll be for the future.  \nQuarterly earnings is always a catalyst too. Haven’t looked at Pelotons numbers but they must’ve set guidance high for the “going back to the gyms” expectations...  \nThe thing I’d be really worried about short term are costs of transporting and patching every single treadmill out there. Might be a good thing long term but I wouldn’t know if the products end up losing their appeal to buyers due to whatever design changes they’ll be making.', 'In the absence of other information, buying a range of stock when the whole market is down is a good decision because the stock market as a whole is valued by the money available which is a pretty constant commodity moves between shares and safe investments. \n\nThat isn’t applicable to a single share because there are valid reasons why people are betting against the company. A companies share price doesn’t have an arbitrary static value around which the price oscillates. \n\nPeletons value is set not by the “it’s an excercise bike” but the gym membership subscription that comes with it, and that is a pandemic push.  Perhaps exercising from home has become normalised, and we are now in a new normal, but I’m going to bet that a large amount of people who have maintained fitness will want to head back to social environments like the gym.', 'I call this an absolute win!', "Almost.  It also includes access to all their classes, which can be done live or on recording, including core, lifting, pilates etc.  It's effectively a subscription to infinite workout classes of all sorts, plus a stationary bike.", "Kind of but it's a joke.", 'Yes, that’s the whole point of it.', "I mean, there's plenty of reason to want to exercise inside.  Never pay full price for brand new exercise equipment, though.", "I just bought a treadmill for $1200 shipped. I don't think you really care to know, but in case you do, I have three reasons.\n\nBecause I'm fat and out of shape don't want to be judged by people.\n\nBecause I want to watch a movie or play a video game while on the treadmill.\n\nBecause I'm generally antisocial and want to avoid people.\n\nBonus reason: The price isn't as much of a barrier to me as it is to  most people. I'm not rich but I have enough disposable income to buy decent exercise equipment on impulse.", "I mean some people will ride bikes and love it but can't/don't want to run because it's either horrible on their feet or joints.", '> Yikes why not just get a pair of running shoes\n\nDo whatever works is the best motto for health/fitness in my experience. If a $2k bike is what ultimately gets you to your goals then that was the right answer.', "I'm with you. I'm so glad my preferred version of exercise is just going out for a run. I haven't spent any money except the $50 for a used garmin and some shoes.", "I mean, I spend about $50/month on running shoes when it all works out.  But I didn't have to pay $2k up front for a running machine.", 'Paying 2 grand + monthly fees in a city full of sidewalks is not healthy behaviour', 'Yikes why not just tell them to buy a video of someone riding a bike?', 'There are many different types of classes. Many of them are typical spin classes, so they play music that you keep pace with. They sometimes have a theme. Some instructors are funny, others are known for really difficult classes. They also have training focussed classes like power zone classes, where you take a class to set your FTP and then can take classes that use you FTP zones to focus on different types of training, like endurance rides and intervals. They have tabata classes that are like interval training. They do hill rides and intervals rides also.  Big picture, they either help you train for what you are going for or are entertaining and make the rides go by faster. Stationary riding without it can be super, super boring and unenjoyable. That being said, most cyclists buy dedicated trainers rather than things like Pelotons for winter training.', "It's usually some pun related to their specialty.", 'You can also switch to incline trainers for less than the Tread+ that go up to 30% incline.', "Seriously, my wife and I got a used Matrix T7xi for 900 bucks off craiglist right at the onset of the pandemic.  The thing will probably outlast us which is good because I'm not moving that heavy fucker UP the stairs, going down was hard enough.  There are so many cheaper options.", 'NordicTrack stuff is connected these days too. The treadmills adjust speed and incline automatically to match the trainer in different types of workouts.', 'Finally the correct answer.', '* A little man inside a TV that yells at you... for $50 a month.', ' Check my posts. I’m actually 35 and retired. \nThank you Bitcoin!!!! \nI’m just an asshole like yourself. We should be friends.', 'Okay, but why did you get a Peloton instead of any of the other identical products available for significantly cheaper? I\'m not speaking against exercise equipment as a whole here, just the most expensive "prestigious" brand of it.\n\nLike, most people in North America need an automobile of some sort. If you buy yourself an Ferari when a Honda Civic works just as well for your 15 minute commute, you\'re doing it for the prestige of the brand.', 'I just used LA fitness as a stand in for a basic $30/month gym that normal people go to. Equinox is a premium gym that costs $200/month that rich people go to. \n\nAnd yes, there is a market for both.', 'You buying an elliptical at a garage sale is not their customer base...', 'Just in time for lunch ...', 'Over easy with toast to mop up the yolk.', 'I regret to inform you that your submission to Team Omelette has been rejected, you are also herby on notice with the entirety of the Egg Team.  Regards', 'You are confused. This comment thread is about the Peloton cycle. The Peloton tread was what got recalled.\n\nEDIT: this guy removed “don’t play dumb” from the end of the post above after he realized he was wrong lmao', 'The second someone says personal responsibility is the second I know they’re a chud. And calling me a liberal? Sheesh. \n\nYou know “personal responsibility” applies to the rich as well right? They are also personally responsible for killing that kid, because they couldn’t make a treadmill that doesn’t try and murder children and small animals.', 'Peloton caused 1 death, while each year there are more than 10… you hear it in the news because Peloton is popular', 'I agree with you there. I take safety very seriously and would have strongly advocated for this if it where my project or company. I just don’t think people are taking into consideration how much friction is required to get these changes going. It probably isn’t because of shitty people, just time and bureaucracy.', "If you drive your kid somewhere, you are rolling those dice. Seems reasonable enough to me, but I also don't have kids.", "So you've never put your kids in a vehicle?", '> Almost every other treadmill on the market has a simple piece of plastic protecting the rear of the belt and keeping anything from coming into contact with the part of the belt think it’s pulled under the machine.\n\nin the category of slat treadmills very few have such a guard, as proven by a cursory google images search.', 'You still gotta watch your children around active machines....', 'Apparently car accidents only happen when alcohol is involved?', 'But this just allows for severe pinch injuries to happen. I.e. it adds a spot where it can literally rip your skin off by using the guard as leverage.', "I'm not sure guards would help. People would just get body parts jammed/amputated from the guards instead. As far as I can tell, the only thing that other slat-based treadmills do is have them closer to the floor so there is less of a gap to get caught in. Even so, treadmills kill a lot of people. 17 deaths in the US were caused by treadmills since 2018.\n\n> There were an estimated 22,500 treadmill-related injuries treated at U.S. emergency departments in 2019 — including about 2,000 in children under 8 years old, according to the CPSC. The agency received reports of 17 deaths associated with treadmills from 2018 to 2020. One of those fatalities involved a 5-year-old child, but it was not clear what occurred in that case.\n\nhttps://www.washingtonpost.com/business/2021/04/16/peloton-treadmill-injuries-death-cpsc/", 'Uninformed, please advise:\n\nDo these not have a key like most treadmills? The thing you’re not supposed to leave in so kids dont play on them?\n\nPretty basic imo. It gives the parents a chance to eliminate the baby killing element of the baby killing machine. Which they should do.', 'Because then you can call anything a baby killing machine…', 'Nuance?  Never heard of her.', "The company is to blame, yes, but so are the parents who should have been, I don't know, **watching their children**. All it would have taken to save the life of any child in that scenario is a parent being observant.  Any GOOD parent would have told their kid not to play around the treadmill.    Did that happen? No, the kids were unattended around weight equipment.\n\nParental error and neglect is a thing. We need to stop babying the parents and hold them accountable.  They brought that child into the world, he/she is their responsibility.", "You're missing the point. It's a factor of 1. how easy it is to install a safety feature to prevent accidental misuse and 2. how much it would impede the intended use case. It is hard to accidentally make a car dangerous even if there is a key in it. You still need to put it in gear, which requires the brake to be pressed while you do so. That is the kind of safety mechanism that people are asking for. Stoves are gonna be hot, so there's no way around that. However, a smell is added to the gas to make sure you can tell if you accidentally leave it on. You can also visually tell if a stove is on at non low settings.", "yea man totally, I definitely want to side with corporations that have teams of researchers and developers that should figure out dangerous issues with their products but don't because the plastic piece would cost the company an extra 3$ a unit.\n\nScrew the parents that lost their child, they shouldn't have been **stupid** and made a mistake I guess....", 'Yeah and you’re bending over backwards to not fault negligent corporations for poor, negligent designs whose sole job it is to make a safe product. \n\nSince it’s not as safe as other treadmills *already* on the market bc it’s missing safety features you should reconsider your misguided vitriol and redirect it at the multi million dollar company that shouldn’t have designed an unsafe product to begin with.', "I think that's the difference between negating 100% of the misuse by design and 100% considering it as part of every design decision.", "But if they didn't design the treadmill to injure and kill pets and babies, then there wouldn't be any issues.", "Clearly, the safety key is inadequate.  \n\nI'm sorry you're unable to find cleaning supplies that are either less toxic or come with safety caps. But the existence of cleaning bottles without safety caps doesn't mean those designs are good.  Edit: household chemicals, in particular, have been designed to be safer over time.  One notable example is the shift away from dyeing them bright colors that make them look like soda or juice.\n\nWe invented induction stoves.", "a knife Isn't a piece of large machinery, you can put a fucking knife away.", '>their industry peers have already adapted that makes it really clear cut  negligence imo\n\nNot even their peers! Their other treadmill they designed/released first has the guard', "Absolutely. Allowing children to play on or around exercise equipment is negligent too. But there's no real excuse to have this design flaw (aside from aesthetics)", "Yes, you're a bad parent if you use the bathroom for five minutes while your kids play in the other room.  You're supposed to either take them in there with you or you need to save all your toileting for when the kids are asleep.", "Fucking poors shouldn't be buying thousand dollar exercise equipment, amirite?", "No it's definitely spoken about with regards to toddlers as well. Hell you see it a lot more with regards to younger kids.", "You hear the same shit when it comes to teenagers, what are you fucking talking about!  Redditors will have you believe that the only teenagers who do dangerous TikTok challenges are the ones who don't have proper parenting...always forgetting all the stupid, dangerous shit they did when they were that age despite having been taught not to.", 'And I just bought them. Good habits start early.', 'That sounds reasonable.', "I guess Peloton disagrees considering they're recalling it.", 'Unless you are using it in a locked room that is impossible for the children or pets to access while you are on the machine then you are not using it in a way that does not endanger them', 'Unless I’m missing something the article you linked talks about different treadmill injuries. It’s adults who misuse the equipment and fall. The issue at hand with peloton equipment is that it’s back is way too high, which creates a situation where kids or pets get sucked in. The other treadmills backs much closer to ground or they have a protection skirt around the back.', 'It’s called irony dipshit', "No it's like honda not including seatbelts and then your moronic ass saying that's fine because they shouldn't have been driving.", 'So you should know then that kids have arms and legs and can turn things on too, right? Especially when the “on” knob is easily within a child’s reach instead of higher up on the console. Speaking of console, those are falling off the peletons and causing injuries too, but I guess that’s also the consumers fault somehow right?', 'My state has a law that firearms must be locked away from kids, don’t know of any law about locking away the treadmills.', 'This is a stupid analogy. A gun is a weapon, treadmills are for exercise. Guns are SUPPOSED to be dangerous. Treadmills are not. Make sense?', "I don't know any gun owning parents who leave their guns on the floor in the corner of the living room. Are you suggesting the parents lock the treadmill up in a safe when not in use?\n\nComparing treadmills to guns. 2021 in a nutshell.", 'Except right now the "valid reason" is just a knee jerk media outrage that will be forgotten in a couple weeks, which is an extremely common event for people buying single stocks to take advantage of. \n\nIf you don\'t think the Peloton business will continue to succeed after the pandemic winds down that\'s a totally separate question, but it was succeeding before the pandemic and trending upward, and now they have a huge install base that have these bikes and subscriptions that aren\'t just going to disappear from their homes because it\'s summer. Peloton isn\'t magically disappearing overnight because of this incident either and there\'s no reason to think they\'re suddenly going to fail without a pandemic market.  Their IPO was back in 2019, and they were successful and trending upward then too no matter how ridiculous we may personally find their products. \n\nThere\'s a reason all of the finance media is still pushing Peloton as a good buy, the stock dipping from this incident is just an opportunity to buy even cheaper.', "I guess that's cool.  But also... Youtube? I guess if you are really into the interactivity and live classes then it's appealing.", ">  It's effectively a subscription to infinite workout classes of all sorts, plus a stationary bike.\n\nIts worse.  The subscription as a standalone is CHEAPER for one person than if you have the bike/treadmill.  \n\n* Standalone ($13/month)\n* Treadmill/bike ($40/month)\n\nYou'd need to have 4 household members all using different accounts for it to be cost worth it to save money with the Treadmill/bike subscription.  The exact same content is in both subscriptions.", "So, it's YouTube you pay for?", "Some of us live in a place with winter.\n\nI still want to run when it's 15°. I just don't want to be outside while I do it.", "Put that shit on a gentle incline and just walk and walk and walk and you'll get there keep it up", 'I bought a much cheaper stationary bike, but for similar reasons. I’m typically antisocial, and social anxiety is real.\n\nI figure if I have a stationary bike right there in front of me, it’s harder for me to make excuses not to use it. I can’t use social anxiety as an excuse, and I can’t use the weather as an excuse. \n\nI have to stare at it every day and know there’s no excuse, and that motivates me to actually get exercise in. Well worth the investment.', 'Or, this time of year especially, it’s hotter than Satan’s grundle outside', "Yeah I'm aware of that I'm a cyclist myself but my point was it's cheaper to buy a pair of shoes or a bike then what the equipment costs\n\nI get there is other factors involved like weather or time", 'If you are spending $50 on a watch and shoes then you are getting terrible shoes and going to get yourself hurt. Any decent running shoes alone will cost >$80, most >$100.', 'Good lord how hard are you running that you need new shoes monthly. That just seems... like a lot.', "Weather.  Fuck if I'm running when it's over 100F.  I just got a $80 basic model, though.  If I'm still using it in 6ish months I'll ask myself if I want to upgrade", 'Yeah my wife and I bought a precor 15 years ago. It has had a few parts replaced over the years but it does have almost 5000 miles on it. It was a great investment.', 'They also cost a fortune though', 'Watching a 72" screen from the couch with family is a lot more comfortable than trying to cram together at a desk to watch a 24" monitor.', 'It’s really a replacement for a group fitness class studio.  Which I throughly enjoy and would run me like 200+ a month in a la carte classes in a large city. \n\nMoved to an apt building with peloton treads and bikes - free membership - and thoroughly enjoy using them. \n\nIf I moved to the burbs and had a the space I’d totally make one part of my home gym setup.  I’m sure there’s cheaper options', '>Okay, but why did you get a Peloton instead of any of the other identical products available for significantly cheaper? I\'m not speaking against exercise equipment as a whole here, just the most expensive "prestigious" brand of it. \n\nBecause it is easily the best product of its kind on the market.  The Peloton bike is not merely an exercise bike, it is a home-based, on-demand spin studio.  Spin studios like SoulCycle charge $20-$35 *per class* and even with package deals you can easily blow way past the monthly subscription cost of Peloton in the first week of any given month.  Factor in all the on-demand content that you can access any time of day or night, the large number of live classes throughout the day and it is much more convenient than going to a studio regardless of the costs.  Then, factor in safety/closure issues related to the pandemic and it is no wonder that Peloton and its close competitors are selling like hotcakes right now.  \n\n$2000 for a high-quality spin bike is a lot of money for some people, but for others its really not that much.  And its only a one-time cost.  The $39/month (or whatever it is now) is actually pretty damn reasonable and I have heard many people say that they are much more motivated by the Peloton leaderboard and class interaction than they ever were in live spin classes.   \n\nOf course, as others have mentioned, most Peloton bikes probably end up as wet towel storage just like most other exercise equipment.', 'I had one at my office and used it several times before buying it; my wife asked about my experience because she had not been going to her gym very much because MN in February is dark and she couldn’t be bothered. So we got a bike instead of the gym membership when she heard me enjoying the experience. \n\nAs far as your second point is concerned, that’s not a really good example for a couple of reasons. The price difference between a peloton and its closest competitor is tiny compared to the difference between a Civic and a Ferrari. And I’ve never driven a Ferrari but I imagine that a car enthusiast would probably think that they’re completely different driving experiences. Not every decision is made with pure utilitarianism in mind and “value” is purely subjective.', "I suppose so.  In the end, of it's helping folks get healthy, that's important.", 'You keep talking, but all I hear is "hurr durr let\'s protect the stupid people from their own careless and irresponsible choices"', "Nope. Don't have kids. But getting them a recreational activity that has as high a fatality rate as driving is still a shitty idea.", 'Very few slat treadmills are actually marketed at consumers and not at Gyms', 'Which is better than an infant/toddler literally getting sucked underneath till death.', 'Which are usually thwarted by having a "resistance" sensor to detect when the belt is snagging something, and automatic shutoff.\n\nThe peloton ones lack this and instead increase torque when snagging something. And it\'s much heavier than traditional belt treadmills.', 'Yeah of course you could. It’s not like Peloton is the only company in history that skimped on safety features just to save themselves a buck.', 'Uh huh. And you could call their competitors who actually include basic safety features that prevent baby killing "non-baby-killing machines." People who make baby killing machines kill babies and get sued, and those who don\'t, don\'t.', 'Yeah, but you forgot “corporation bad, parents good” part of the argument! ^/s', "Part if the problem is just how exhausting having kids can be. Sometimes you're overtired and miss the key. Sometimes a doorbell rings and you run to grab it. Sometimes, the little shits find the key and figure out how to work it. If the safety mechanism is so easy to forget then it isn't a good safety mechanism.", "In my opinion there are two ways to stop these injuries and child deaths.  \n\n\n1: Hope all the worlds' parents become militantly vigilant about their treadmill keys.  \n2: Make a billion dollar company put a 5$ plastic guard on a really expensive treadmill.\n\nI'm uninformed, please advise: You find the death of this kid preferable to option two?\n\nIsn't that a violation of rule 11, no Advocating or celebrating death?", '>  Any GOOD parent would have told their kid not to play around the treadmill.\n\nThat... actually hilarious.\n\nI\'m just picturing your hypothetical "good parent" having a discussion regarding the finer points of friction, and how proper application of friction can convert a stationary treadmill into something with the movement characteristics of a tanks treads.  And any good parent would ensure that the freaking **toddler** grasped these concepts, and obeyed their commands without question.', 'You have no idea what it takes to design and then produce a product, and it shows.', 'All treadmills can easily kill pets and babies', "And you can put the key to the treadmill away too. That's part of what it's designed for.", 'Wow if that’s not damning idk what is', 'I agree the design is flawed, but this would still be a dangerous situation on any treadmill was my point.', 'They are recalling it because of the backlash from people. Would you leave a riding lawnmower out where kids can play on it with the KEY in it? Should lawnmower companies have to recall everything because a kid could get hurt?', "That is exactly what I am doing. It is what Ive been doing for 3 years since I bought it. Because it isnt safe for kids to be around, and because I didn't want my kids to break it. I mean my 4 year put a switch controller through the screen of a 4k curve screen TV and broke the TV. Who let's their kids play on a $5000 tread?", 'I don’t disagree with your overall sentiment. Peloton should definitely recall this product.\n\nHowever, there is a safety key in these kinds of machines. I’m not defending the company but let’s use our brains here as well. If the key was removed and put in a place the child couldn’t reach this wouldn’t have happened either.', "My wife and I hid the key to turn them on BECAUSE we knew that kids have arms and legs and we had 2 boys into everything.  That's what parents do.  Duh.", 'So you are saying the deaths could have been avoided by a law that says treadmill keys are too be safely secured next to the pistol?', "It is still a machine and it's devoid of feelings for the meat bags around the house. We have lots of things around the house that are designed to be as safe as possible that still have lots of potential to mame or kill.", 'They do have safety keys you can remove on them for this purpose.', "Interactivity but the app also makes it really easy to find exactly what you're looking for.  Each class is rated in difficulty, some are grouped into a month long progression etc.  Yeah, it can all be found elsewhere most likely, but to be honest between the quality of the classes and ease of use/variety, I think the monthly cost is pretty fair (cost of the bike is a different story).  My GF got a bike for $500, and her and her roommate split the membership, plus I get to make a profile on the account like Netflix and can do the classes off my phone at home too, and I'd say overall that makes it perfectly worth it.", "I had a $200 spin bike for a while and thought the same thing - I could just take classes on youtube. I never really found any classes I got into. I didn't end up using the bike much and sold it. Had a Peloton at a gym I was a member at for a while and the content is MUCH better than anything I've found on youtube. It's the only piece of stationary cardio (other than a live spin class) I could ever do without getting mind numbingly bored. \n\nI get that it's not for everyone, but it _is_ a premium product (at a premium price).", 'Sometimes I just need that weirdly intense and aggressive encouragement.', 'Sorry it sounded weird. I bought a used garmin for 50 and about 50 for Asics at the outlet store. When I started running I also forced myself to relearn how to run by landing on my toes. Arguably that means the shoes are less important.', 'You don’t need 80 dollar running shoes for casual running.  Wtf kind of gatekeeping am I reading here.', 'I need a new pair about every 3-4 months, but I have wonky arches/stride so my shoes are $150-200 to get good ones that work for me.', 'A lot of people need new shoes monthly because of use. Like skaters and skate shoes.', 'Not if Peloton is the alternative :-)', 'We have a proforma treadmill.  75% cost of the nordic track and does all the same things with a big screen and ifit membership. Follows speed and incline if you want it too as well.  Will most likely add a pro forma rower as well to the gym.', "You're right, my comparison was a bad one. But I'm still left wondering about the why - I get trying one a few times would be a bit of a push, but when looking at the lineup of potential exercise bikes, what was the biggest selling point that pushed you towards the brand name one instead of any of the others? Are there any additional features I'm overlooking, or is it particularly space-efficient or something?", "Ovens can easily forgot to be turned off and burners left on but you don't see all oven companies having auto shut offs. It's so easily to make mistakes, but you have to be aware or problems can occur. Hell, parents change their routine and leave their kids in their car to accidentally die but where's the mitigation for that.", 'No, it’s not celebrating anything. It’s asking a simple question. Nowhere did I say anything about the plastic guard. Thanks for jumping for your pitchfork and assuming my opinion, though.\n\nI still think parents should keep the key out, and keep the kids from playing on it. The video floating around this thread of the child being sucked under one of these... I personally place the blame somewhat heavily on the parents, as shitty as it is. Treadmills are dangerous. I do agree that this one appears more dangerous than others. But leaving it in a kid’s playroom, toys strewn everywhere, unsupervised, with the key in? Cmon. Parents dont get a special status of immunity from blame when a scapegoat exists, even if the scapegoat has some blame to share.\n\nI’m not against safety regulations, or smart design. I am a supporter of personal responsibility, however. And I don’t think society should immediately always rush to the side of “corporation bad” because of negligent behavior.\n\nThis case is pretty complicated, and I think you’re treating it as one-sided because of the emotions tied around the death of children and the pitchfork emporium having a fire sale. If it’s a simple fix, sure, blame peloton for avoiding it. But i promise you, at the price theyre selling this machine, if a guard was $5 to implement with this elevating design, it would have one. I’ve quoted bulk orders of things like that, and I think you’d be surprised.\n\nIf you want to focus on smart design: Imo, a better way would be to have sensors meant to detect cases like this. At the price they sell this shit at, they could afford that. You could couple it with a rudimentary physical guard that guides any obstructions, i bet they could make something work. But it wouldn’t be an easy retrofit, and definitely way over $5\n\nI think based on what I’ve seen of this design, only physical guards wouldn’t work how people are imagining. But I don’t own one, I wouldn’t know for sure without really looking at it. If it were as simple as you say, they’d probably just ship a $5 piece of plastic to their customers. Something tells me they know more than you do, seeing as theyve instead opted to recall thousands of machines.', 'What\'s hilarious is you defending them.  Let me explain this in a way you might be able to understand.\n\n1. THEY ARE TODDLERS, THEREFORE SHOULD NOT BE LEFT UNATTENDED.\n\n2. TODDLERS SHOULD ESPECIALLY NOT BE LEFT UNATTENDED IN A FUCKING WORKOUT ROOM\n\n3. TODDLERS UNDERSTAND "NO" AND GETTING IN TROUBLE FOR DOING THINGS THEY SHOULDN\'T.\n\nIf you don\'t understand any of that, there\'s no hope for you.', "Dude, they don't either. For expensive treadmills the slowdown safety mechanism that detects if something is snagged and shuts the belt off is pretty standard. \n\nThis treadmill costs double what normal expensive ones cost.\n\nThey're a service company, the physical product is more of an after thought and it's pretty clear.", "All ovens can kill pets and babies.  If I designed an oven with a pets and babies conveyor belt into the oven, it would come as no surprise when that oven got recalled.  I'm sorry you're having trouble wrapping your head around the idea that this design is bad. I'm also done caring.  Bye.", "They're recalling it because their lawyers and actuaries found they'd lose more money in wrongful death lawsuits than they would by not recalling it.", 'The problem isn’t with the safety key. Have you ever left your keys in the house when you left? People are going to forget the key in the slot, because people are people, and it’s going to happen. \n\nThat isn’t the real issue though, the major design flaw is the on-switch and speed adjustment knob that are within a toddlers reach, and require no more than spinning the knob to speed it up (compared to the button operated method most treadmills put way up on the console, I wonder why). Never mind the lack of any barrier to prevent something from getting sucked under the thing or the screens falling off. \n\nIt’s a shit product design that completely overlooked basic safety shit so it could “look cool.”', 'Y’all really wanna defend a poorly designed product and shitbag of a CEO, don’t ya?', 'I was honestly in the "Peloton is an overpriced average product for bored rich people looking for a hobby" camp for a loooooong time. My gf wanted a Peloton bike as a grad gift really bad but we both knew it was way too expensive, so we got a Bowflex bike for well under half the price instead that pretty much does everything the Peloton does and has all the same features, just without the screen, for half the price. \n\nI was super skeptical but after actually trying the classes a couple times using the app (which is like $15 per month) I grew to really really like it. It game-ifies exercising in a way that is super motivating, it\'s enjoyable to track my metrics, and the instructors seem like genuinely cool people. I\'ve been into and out of exercising most of my life but I give Peloton a lot of credit for being the most fun and motivating solo exercise I\'ve ever done. \n\nAnyway. It\'s just kinda funny seeing people who\'ve never tried it shit on Peloton all the time. Yeah it\'s pricey if you get Peloton branded everything, but it\'s a lot more accessible if you get a competitor bike and just use the cheap app.\n\nBut uh, yeah, this treadmill thing is definitely a bad look.', 'Yea, I did 30 mile weeks on $60 shoes and was fine, but I’d say after moving up to the 50+ range  is where good shoes are needed. I treated myself to some nice ASICS when I hit that', "Are you a skater yourself? My son is into longboarding, but just bought himself a smaller one to practice tricks, too. His birthday is coming up so I was thinking maybe shoes for him.  And recs or sites? He's been doing it so far in his daily hiking boots lol", 'A lesser fortune is still a lot of money', ">downloaded video to a TV\n\nYes. To a TV. Which you said you threw away. You're the only one in this thread who's ever mentioned cable.\n\nI've been running a Myth box into all kinds of screens for almost two decades; you really don't need to worry about my level of knowledge.", 'I think that, at that point in time, there weren’t that many alternative options that offered the same shit: namely live and on-demand bike classes along with other types of exercise on the same app. I could be wrong about this. The bike’s footprint I believe is 2x5 feet so it is pretty small compared to most other stationary bikes I’ve seen. The variety is what really kept me engaged and attracted me to it; tons of different people doing classes, from super chill instructors to hyper pushy ones, any music you can imagine from Mozart to Mastodon, all of that really appealed to my ADD because I could always do something different. It also quantifies shit really well so I kinda made an RPG out of it and I found it satisfying to track my own progress. I feel like an idiot because I am realizing that I sound like an evangelist but the exercise has truly improved my life and I’m probably retrofitting justification to some extent as well. It’s def not for everyone but I have loved it.', "I agree that's it's easy to make mistakes but this is clearly a design flaw with that particular model. A simple guard, as is standard on all other treadmills, can prevent so much pain. This seems like a case of both parties at fault, but the company should have known better. They made a gamble for their bottom line and it didn't work.", "Never had kids, eh?\n\nYou can tell a toddler no.  They can fully understand you.  And they can still disregard the instructions.  Even the most well behaved and disciplined kids will have their moments.  \n\nAnd even if a parent does leave the toddler unattended for a minute (it's certainly not ideal), a treadmill should pose the danger of potentially pinching a finger in the mechanism, or causing some minor abrasions / rug burn.  Peloton invented a treadmill that causes death instead.  That's quite an upgrade.", 'It’s not that the design is complicated, it’s this notion that engineers can somehow foresee every failure mode and then make a solution happen just by sending an email. If they wanted a safety system to detect over torque, for example, guess what, that just become 3 people’s full time job for next 6 months. That’s why shit like this gets over looked— not because the people making this were too stupid to foresee it.', 'I agree with you that they are primarily a service company.', "So let's go after john deer for not putting a device on the lawnmower to stop the blades if it detects resistance. You know instead of using the safety features like turning it off, removing the key, and not leaving it in an area kids can play on it unsupervised. Do you not think they could win buy saying the parents didn't follow the safety procedures for operation and storage of the equipment. They are recalling because of backlash.", "> The problem isn’t with the safety key. Have you ever left your keys in the house when you left? People are going to forget the key in the slot, because people are people, and it’s going to happen.\n\nPeople leave their stoves on all the time too and burn down the house. That's negligence on their end, not on the machines end. \n\nSince you brought it up, the real issue is the parents. A baby or toddler should never be in a position to turn on or be near a treadmill that has power.  Get baby gates, get locks, get a fucking safe for the safety key. Tie it to yourself when you get on the machine, so you have to deal with it after you get off the machine.  Simple steps to prevent serious injury, simple steps that are even outlined in the instruction book.", "Not really. Just saying, parents need to be responsible, no? I don't give a fuck about this company, but nor would I turn a blind eye to parent's obvious responsibility.", 'No it’s literally there, we just going to ignore the safety feature that’s there? You don’t have to “put it in a safe”.', "Yeah, I'd never call it a great value necessarily, but you do get a lot if the classes are what you want, and the gameify thing definitely helps for many.", "Yep I'm a skater. Can't go wrong with Vans pro series! They're awesome and not very expensive. $60-70 per pair. The pro series are tougher and more cushioning than their normal line and made of suede which is the ideal fabric for skating. Vans pro slip ons, or kyle walkers, or any of them that say pro on them haha. \n\nThere's tons of other good options out there but can't go wrong with Vans especially for a beginner. Plenty of pros use them.", "Fair enough.\n\nThe deck on my 8 yr old demo unit cracked and I couldn't bring myself to pay more for a repair than was originally paid for the treadmill.", 'Well at the very least it sounds like there were enough reasons beyond the brand name, and I stand corrected in my initial judgey comments.', 'Bro there other fucking models have the protective plate at the bottom.', 'Bad design is bad design. Keep defending it if you want to. I don’t care anymore for the people defending this shitty company and product. \n\nIf you aren’t gonna design a product like this around the possibility of something being forgotten and a kid interacting with it, then that’s a poorly designed consumer product. Period.\n\nI forgot that Reddit users like to pretend they’re perfect and can make no mistake.', 'Again, it’s poorly designed. Spend 5 minutes on YouTube and many reviews will tell you the same. Keep defending bad design and shitty lying ass companies though.', "Thank you so much! That helps a lot... I was looking at those, but didn't know if it was just because it was a name back when I was a kid.  Good to know they're around still for a reason", "I'm not though. Maybe you're the one that needs to learn something before trying to be condescending.\n\nhttps://www.mythtv.org/wiki/Commercial_detection", 'Yeah I’d say so but again, I’m only human and could well be engaging in post-hoc reasoning 🤷\u200d♂️ Thanks for considering my inputs in any case.', 'I’m not saying it wasn’t a mistake on their part, I’m just saying that people think it’s way easier than it actually is to make changes on a project of this size.', "> Keep defending it if you want to. I don’t care anymore for the people defending this shitty company and product.\n\nI'm not defending the product. I was trying to point out to you that the problem in this case is not the treadmill, it's the parents neglect. Don't leave your child, who is your responsibility to protect, next to a treadmill that they can turn on.\n\n> I forgot that Reddit users like to pretend they’re perfect and can make no mistake.\n\nYou're the one claiming the parents are perfect and not at fault in any fashion.", 'You poke holes in all your plastic bags?', 'Nope, still cool and relevant. No problem!', "Why are you simping so hard for this corp that doesn't care about you", ">You're the one claiming the parents are perfect and not at fault in any fashion.\n\nThis is literally the exact opposite of what I'm saying. Humans are going to make mistakes. This crazy minor mistake cost a child it's life, one that could've been prevented with design that cared just a little bit more about safety than it looking cool.\n\nTry putting yourself in someone else's shoes for once.\n\nYou are defending a shitty product. And you're misunderstanding the point.", 'Because I’m an engineer who designs platforms for a living and I know that this shit is harder than people make it out to be.', "> This crazy minor mistake cost a child it's life\n\nThat's not a minor mistake bud. When you leave the stove on and burn down your house it's not a minor mistake. When you hit the gas instead of the brake and run your car off the road, that's not a minor mistake. When you forget to secure the weights on your barbell while lifting and they fall off and go through the floor, that's not a minor mistake. When you use your elliptical and bonk your dog in the head that's not a minor mistake.\n\nAccidents happen. People are at fault for those mistakes. Your job as a parent is to ensure your mistakes never harm your child. Allowing a treadmill to be in a state where it can be operated by a toddler is pure neglect. \n\nWhen a kid gets ahold of a parents gun and discharges it, do you blame the gun manufacturer or the parent who didn't properly secure their gun ? The gun should be in a safe, unloaded, where a child cannot access it. Just like the treadmill should be unplugged, without the safety key, where a child cannot possible turn it on. If you can spend $3000 on a treadmill you sure as hell can buy a locking toddler gate to put around your treadmill.\n\nI'm not defending a shitty product by any means. Child neglect is real.", "oh look, another Redditor comparing guns to treadmills for whatever dumbass reason\n\nwe've worthlessly gone full circle\n\nlike you said, $3000 premium product where they couldn't consider some basic safety shit, doesn't matter who is at fault, bad design is bad design. period.", 'I agree with you. I take safety very seriously in my projects. The only issue I have with most of the comment in this thread is that people think this would have been super easy to fix and that they were just being lazy/greedy without taking into consideration the tremendous friction you have to overcome with projects that are in-flight. We aren’t talking about a quick change in CAD— we are talking about months of full time work and the potential to completely erase any positive business case you planed when you budgeted the project. Sometimes you fail, and this is an example of that— it doesn’t mean they are negligent or stupid, just human.', 'Another person who doesn’t want to take responsibility for their actions. You pulled one example out of the five they gave to pigeon hole the entire response. Great job being out of ideas.\n\nThe design of the product being shit and the parents being shit (in that specific moment) are not mutually exclusive. They can both be true. \n\nThe problem with your last statement is you are trying to assign fault to the company and exonerate the parents for a simple “mistake”. That’s not how it works.', "Honestly, if this issue wasn't identified in the early stages of the project, or even in the early alpha testing stages, then I'd hold serious reservations about the development team that let it get all the way to production.\n\nOtherwise, if they were identified but ignored by management, then my reservations lay with the company and their concern for shareholders over customers.\n\nResponsibility doesn't just disappear.  At some point, someone missed a deadly flaw, or someone decided it wasn't worth dealing with.  Just because it's inconvenient or unpleasant to assign blame doesn't make anyone blameless.  Should consumers accept a potentially lethal design flaw because a correction would be inconvenient?", ">When you leave the stove on and burn down your house it's not a minor mistake.\n\nGas has a smell added to it for this purpose, fire can be seen pretty easily, and a stove is a stove, this is a bad example/comparison like your dumbass guns one.\n\n> When you hit the gas instead of the brake and run your car off the road, that's not a minor mistake. \n\nWtf is this even about? Why is this even part of the argument? A car that is in motion and on the road is somehow comparable to a stationary living room ornament?\n\n>When you forget to secure the weights on your barbell while lifting and they fall off and go through the floor, that's not a minor mistake.\n\nYou're really full of terrible comparisons here. This is where I gave up honestly.\n\n> When you use your elliptical and bonk your dog in the head that's not a minor mistake.\n\nBecause this one just reads like a joke.\n\nI ignored your responses because they were all irrelevant to the fact that this product is poorly designed. Keep creating other hypotheticals to fit your narrow ass worldview though. I'm not exonerating anyone dipshit and I'm not saying the parents don't share some responsibility, I'm saying a kid's life could've been spared with better product design. JFC.", 'I agree with pretty much everything you said. \nI’m just more understanding of how it could go overlooked than the average person in this thread.', 'Oh the spite response. You mention simple mistakes. These are all seemingly small mistakes that can turn into large catastrophes. You’re just choosing ignorance here.\n\nLet me remind you that LITERALLY NO ONE is disagreeing that the design is poor. We think it’s poor as well. \n\nWe are saying that it’s still the parents responsibility for not securing the room, the key, the machine, and keeping both out of reach from their child.', "I totally understand, and many people won't realize the unanticipated challenges that come with that kind of work."]}
df = pd.DataFrame.from_dict(data_dict)