speaker stringclasses 2
values | text stringlengths 3 2.66k |
|---|---|
A | Bankless nation. Happy Friday. We got an unscripted conversation coming at you live. Me and Mike Ibalido are just gonna go at it. Whenever we talk a bunch in real life, it's always super. I always learn a ton from Mike at Bolido, and so I'm going to do that again today, but this time live on the stream. So we're going ... |
B | Doing very well, man. Doing very well. No complaints. Almost end of the week. What about you? Yeah, we never have. |
A | We never ever talk. Like, what's up with that? The joke is we actually, we talk quite often, but we never get to talk, I think open ended. |
B | That's very true. |
A | When we do, it's usually in some sort of like, crowded, loud environment and not as productive as it could be. So I hope. I hope we can kind of change the game a little bit with what we talked about today. |
B | Yeah, I agree. Well, where do you want to start first? I mean, it's been an interesting week. |
A | It's been an interesting week. It's been an interesting quarter. I think things are crescendoing in their interests. Maybe we could start just as where we left off when we had you on the podcast, like half a year ago now, and you had, I think, one of the most banger podcasts that we had in a while. Really just talking ... |
B | Yeah, I think since then we've started to see even more convergence. And I. One of the. There's actually a great. This is basically anything that Vitalik writes is gold, right? But he's got this great, very nicely summed up, very nicely summed up diagram, which is basically three different ways that blockchains are evo... |
A | So I think like the before bankless, I did this podcast with my old buddy uh, christian caroles, who then went on to work at bitcoin media. And my, my arc in that role was like the everything guy. So I, I'm all the chains, the multilayer ones, the, the cosmos, the interoperability, uh, the bridges, uh, and then he was ... |
B | So, David, what do you think? If you had to outline, what do you think the forces that push us towards that direction of one chain to rule them all? And what are the forces that disperse us from that consequence? |
A | Well, I think the very, very simple one is like the bigger that the, the top dog chain is, like the one chain to rule them all. The bigger that that one is, the stronger of an incentive there is to fork off from that chain and try and build a new one. A better, like a better bitcoin. Build a better bitcoin, like an eth... |
B | I'm with you. Another way of saying that VC's and retail love new layer ones is entrepreneurs love it, too. That is, I think, the single driving force, which is just that entrepreneur sees inevitably with these. But blockchain architectures, you have to make trade offs. And there's always, like, one smart person who's ... |
A | Are you saying that there's no such thing as actually truly general block space? |
B | I think, yeah, I think I'm landing on that. I don't think. I think it might be a myth similar to bridging. |
A | Okay, so. But Ethereum at block, at the Genesis block in 2015, and then before it became, had any sort of like actual real, uh, applications on it. That was general blast, right? |
B | Yeah, yeah, yeah. Unmorphed and then had to specialize at some point. |
A | And then had to specialize. Yeah. But is Ethereum specializing now? I guess now it will still be pretty general, um, until Deng kun. And that is the first intra instance of Ethereum specializing with blob space. Right. Like, it's still pretty general up until that point. It's just like the apps have started to force it... |
B | I think ultimately every, even like Solana, which is the, you know, it's the light speed, it's the world, it's consensus of the speed of Nasdaq, global, all that stuff, it's probably going to have to end up specializing. I'm not technical enough to be like at this level of throughput, this many transactions, this globa... |
A | Yeah, I think we just did this super long podcast with Mike Nooter and Domothy, 2 hours, 45 minutes around on the Ethereum roadmap. And that's kind of like when like, once again it was impressed upon me that the long term conclusion of Ethereum is this like, super lightweight layer, one blockchain that just receives an... |
B | It would, it would be hysterical if they wound up doing basically the same thing. But I also think here's a challenge, or here's just something I've been trying to think through when it comes to bitcoin. You let me know. So the great thing about Ethereum from a monetary standpoint is it's this very large, very liquid a... |
A | Right? |
B | It's like arctic tundra cold storage. So I. How much of that unlocks into these new cool use cases on drive teens that. I have no idea. I have no idea. And that's the big question. |
A | Okay, yeah, I think I have some sort of, like, not answer, but just like, I think why there is that culture in bitcoin is because they haven't been given the tools to express themselves in their desire for more productive asset in bitcoin. And so, like, all of the people who are like, I'm going to dig a five foot hole ... |
B | I think so, too. So one of my we going into this year prediction episode, one of my highest convictions bets was actually bitcoin jpegs for exactly this reason. So I've been cheering on just because when CeFi blew up, it eliminated the tools for bitcoiners to do anything with their bitcoin. Right. But I think basically... |
A | It is kind of funny how fast JPEG culture got inception into bitcoin. I feel like they have a bigger JPEg culture than Ethereum does these days. |
B | They do. And low key magic Eden, they pivoted away from Solana, but they basically own. They have super dominant market share there. If you want to trade a bitcoin JPEG, you basically go to magic Eden. So props to them for doing that. What do you think, David, about there have been a lot of hot takes on the death of th... |
A | The death of the 10,000 pfp collection? What was the last 10,000 pFP collection to really come out? |
B | Well, I guess you had, like, mad lads. I don't know if it was actually 10,000, but that was some mad lads was. |
A | Yeah, it counts, right? Mad lads was like a year ago. |
B | Yeah, yeah. |
A | There's like, there's like the Brian Armstrong one on base, but that's never really exploded beyond base. |
B | Right, I agree. Yeah. I wouldn't count that. I mean, in Solana there have been a couple. There have been tensorians I would put in there as well. There was a bitcoin. I don't know how many there? There are, but there's node monkeys, and there's, there's also. There's the bitcoin wizards, right? |
A | And then quantum cats was like the new one, which minted out 0.1 bitcoins. And our got up to, like, I haven't checked the price in the last, like, week or so, but, like, the last I checked, it was like, 0.27 bitcoins. |
B | That's what node monkeys was trading at. I was like, I just can't make myself do that. |
A | Yeah, that's too high. |
B | That's too high. Yeah. So, but what do you think about that as a concept? Because, you know, the. If you were against that concept, you'd say this was ridiculous. These JPegs aren't worth very much, and there's no reason they ever should have traded at that valuation. But I think there's maybe another case there, too. |
A | I mean, in a digital world, I've always thought, like, the PFP like, utility on your profile has immense utility. Like, me too, to the point where I'm, like, meeting people at a conference and I'm, like, trying to get a grapple, like, a grasp on who they are. And then they showed me their twitter and I recognize immedi... |
B | They've got built in distribution. There's a guy named Scott Galloway who's kind of this talking head, but he also, he's pretty good on brand, not so great on crypto, but he's really good on brand. And he talks about basically every, all the great products out there. They end up applying, they tap into this very primal... |
A | And some people have a fucking crypto punk right here, baby. |
B | There you go. Yeah, I've been saying for months that I'm going to get, get art here and hang it up, but I haven't done it yet. But every time I go over to your place, I'm like, yeah, I actually got to do this. But, yeah, I think it's a. I mean, it definitely taps into that. The other thing, they have really native buil... |
A | Yeah, yeah. Certainly pudgies would love to tell you all about the airdrops that they're getting, but that can't be, there's limited ammo there, right? |
B | So let me just, so here's why it makes sense from the perspective of protocol. That's airdropping. Imagine you are about to launch your protocol and what you want to do is you might have multiple different objectives, right? Like Starkware is pretty interesting. They wanted to do, they want to bring, they want to rewar... |
A | So, yeah, there are going to be a million airdrops. It's actually kind of nuts. Um, but, okay, but Pudgy's got like two airdrops though. Like, I don't know if we have enough data to say that this is, this is, maybe you're just saying is does data doesn't matter. This is just what makes sense to you. |
B | This is what makes sense to me, I think. |
A | Yeah, but like pudgies are just so far away from just like Starknet. |
B | Yeah, I, so Starknet, Starknet didn't do this. But like dimension, like the dimension air drop. The dimension airdrop got targeted pudgies and bad kids and some of the other NFT questions I've already. |
A | Did you know about dimension before? It's airdrop. |
B | I had heard of it, but I couldn't have articulated what it did because. |
A | There are these tokens that are getting airdropped, and all of a sudden, these protocols are, like, between, like, two and $10 billion that I've never heard of before. |
B | Yeah, I'm on this page for the. Dude, if you have a logical explanation for why dimension is trading where it's trading, I would. |
A | No clue, dude. It's just like, I lost my, like, well, I need to go find it. It's somewhere. I sent it to an address. I need to go find which address, but I haven't been able to actually, like, sell my dym. That's what I've heard is, like, people just, like, can't figure out how to actually sell the tokens, but it's not... |
B | Yeah, I mean, even the FDV of Starknet is. I mean, Starknet's obviously a super credible, very attractive project, but, like, that's super high. I mean, these are. Some of these are great projects, but even, like, Jitto and Jupiter, like, great projects, you know, but they're launching a multi billion dollar fdvs. Craz... |
A | I look at FTV exclusively, and I. Sometimes I feel like an asshole for doing that because everyone says that FTD is a meme, but I'm like, what is the most rational number that exists? |
B | Yeah, well, here's the other. I mean, the other. |
A | I'd love to get Vance's take on that. Can you. Next time you have a podcast with Vance, can you ask him about that? |
B | Yeah, actually, in one of the early Bell curve episodes, he was like, wait, what do you guys look at? Market cap or fDv? And we paused, and he was like, please, for the love of God, there's a right answer here. So I know he's on the FDB train, but, yeah, I don't really have a great explanation for it other than just, l... |
A | Right? Yeah, that's. That's kind of like, yeah, people just are not hitting the sell button. People are hitting the buy button. Yeah. |
B | No, and to be fair, I mean, maybe to assign, like, some amount of rational thinking to this. Like, are you selling anything right now? |
A | No. |
B | Yeah. |
A | Okay. So, like, the. The two airdrops that I got, which I'm big fans of, alt, layer, and dimension, both of them, I'm like, well, if I keep them, it might qualify me for a future airdrop if I don't sell. |
B | So I'll sell market. Yeah, you probably just answered that question. So. Yeah. And just on the margin, people like, well, you know, I feel like everyone is in the same crypto. The total market cap right now is at, like, 2 trillion. Right. Bitcoin is 2020, 5% off its all time highs. I think most people have the same fra... |
A | Dude, I think everyone is trying to be Celestia right now ever. Like, there are future projects that are going to airdrop their tokens, and they're like, how do we airdrop our tokens at a low valuation so that it can pump for a long time afterwards? Like, how do we do that? I'm like, you guys can't force the market to ... |
B | But even when Celestia launched, I don't remember thinking, that's particularly cheap. You know, like, it was launched at a $2 billion FTV I was like, oh, it's like, a lot, you know, but it just rips, and it was. |
A | Did not stop. |
B | Yeah, I mean, celestial is a phenomenal project, and they deserve it. But, like, that. That initial price action was, I'm sure, massive for the general psychology product. |
A | Right? |
B | So. Yeah, right. But, you know, Celestia is also kind of, like. Celestia is also, you know, going back to this convergence thing. Know, bitcoin bulletin board, where you can poke, like, really small blocks, doesn't even support smart contracts. That's where Ethereum headed. That's what Celestia is doing as well. Celest... |
A | Yeah. I have not yet been able to, like, categorize Celestia very well in my brain, like, in the big blocker category, but no virtual machine, so no settlement. I don't know how to think about Celestia. |
B | Yeah. So the way that I think about Celestia is they have found a way to obviate a lot of the negative trade offs of what was this huge argument back in the day of the block science war. And there were two very different camps of thinking about blockchains, which is one you want to keep the. Ironically, actually, the s... |
A | Right. And it goes back to what you were saying about Vitalik's vision of just like big blocks being checked by small blocks, basically. Big block philosophy being checked by small block philosophy. |
B | Exactly. Yeah. And I do think, honestly, Polygon has done a really good job of this. I'm not actually a huge fan of the ag layer branding, but I think they've kind of nailed it with that design. |
A | Yeah, I actually have not looked into that. I think we might have a show scheduled or something like this. What is the ag layer? |
B | Brandon is the guy. |
A | Yeah. |
B | Basically the idea, like my brain breaks around ZK proofs that moon math is just beyond left side of the bell curve. Guy like me. Basically the idea is that, all right, if you, you know, take, take the example that you want to do things on, like you are on chain x and you want to do things on chain y, maybe that's a sw... |
A | Is it just a settlement layer that's on top of ethereum, but below the layer twos? |
B | I would think of it almost as next to the layer twos. It basically just allows you to take there are all these different execution environments which are super different from one another, right. And originally we thought it would be really nice if these execution environments all could directly pipe into each other and... |
A | Yeah, there's a lot of these composability technologies that's being innovated on in the Ethereum landscape, and some of them overlap, some of them don't overlap, some of them are solving their own problems in different ways. And there's like eight of them, eight different categories of ways of solving a theorem, compo... |
B | Or what if the best solution just wins? |
A | Or once, but I don't know, I haven't seen one solution actually be able to encompass all types of composability issues. I haven't seen that. |
B | Well, all right, here's the, maybe to move into some spicier waters here, but I think the challenge with the eth roll up landscape as it exists today is actually that the roll ups don't have as much of an incentive to be composable as you might think. I think everyone would say that they want to, but really the economi... |
A | In spirit, but not in their bags. |
B | Yeah, they want everyone else to do the thing that I'm doing. Like we should all interoperate, right? I've got these great standards. Take my standards. |
A | Yeah. Polygon, come be an op. Stack, shade. |
B | Come on, come on. I've been working so hard for this you know, come and do my thing. But I think they'll get. But, so I think that's the challenge, is. I think what you're alluding to, David, is it's not necessarily a technical challenge. There are probably multiple different tech solutions that could work, but it's ki... |
A | Where are the final sinks for ETH in the grand scheme of things? |
B | Yeah. |
A | And so we're not talking about Eigen Lair because it's still on the layer one. |
B | Yeah, well, that'll be another sync, too, I think. |
A | Are you asking me, like, pick your chains? Like, is the optimism, is arbitrum, or are you kind of. |
B | Yeah, we don't have to. Basically what I'm getting is what I would guess is there's this power law where the bigger, let's just say there's a couple different sinks for ETH. There's the roll up sync, which is probably where most of the ETH, I would say, is going. Then there's probably this sort of weird sink for people... |
A | It really depends on the categories of composability solutions that we come up with. Uh, because, like, if there is so, like, say there's like, a sliding scale of composability across roll ups, and, like, on the zero side, we just can't figure it out. Like, bridging takes, you know, you know, minutes and days. There's,... |
B | Hmm. Yeah. I don't know. I think that composability stuff is going to take a while. So I would bet, yeah, it's going to take a while. So I feel like there's a path dependence thing here where it's a little bit of a race. Like, if I was sitting in the, if I was sitting in the driver's seat of one of these big frameworks... |
A | So is that what you think blast, explicitly what blast was doing? |
B | Yeah. Yeah, I do. |
A | They thought in your terms, and they're like, we are just going to do whatever we can to get as much eat as possible because the door is shutting. And so we're going to play whatever game possible to make that happen. |
B | I am. I look, I don't know, Pac Man. I actually like, I like the way he thinks a lot. I'm not 100% sure if I'm a big fan of blast yet, but here is the logical series of events as I saw it. He launches blur. Right? It's NFT trading. Very, very successful in taking market share from Opensea, just like every other exchang... |
A | I've never understood the blast yield incentive, because I have ETH in aave on optimism, except. And like, and then I have, like, stables borrowed against it, and it's staked ETH. It's lido steak teeth. So I'm getting the same ETH on optimism that someone else is on blast. So what's the fucking deal? |
B | Well, I probably a lot of these people are. Airdrop farming is right now, right? That's what I would guess. So they're probably airdrop farming. And it's kind of this idea, like, I really think crypto people love yield. Trad five people love yield. I had a conversation with someone who works at a big, very crypto nativ... |
Subsets and Splits
No community queries yet
The top public SQL queries from the community will appear here once available.