Marketing: {gap}Project Manager: {gap} {vocalsound}Marketing: I dunno . {vocalsound} Throwing away my toothpick .User Interface: Hi there .Project Manager: Yo . Ow .Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}ProjectManager: {gap} {vocalsound}Marketing: 'Kay .Project Manager: Uh {disfmarker}Marketing: Nice user interface .Project Manager: Yeah . What the {disfmarker} Uh {disfmarker}Marketing: {gap}Project Manager: Yeahwell , ja well let's just start .Marketing: 'Kay .Project Manager: {vocalsound} {vocalsound} I've uh made a presentation uh but uh I'll open it on the Smartboard , so we can all see it .Marketing: Right let's see it .ProjectManager: So it's in the project documents because that's what we can find here . Well {gap} . {vocalsound}Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}Project Manager: Very nice . Well this is called the the the kick-off meeting .So uh {vocalsound} I'm the Project Manager , so I had to fill it in ,Marketing: 'Kay .Project Manager: and uh hmm . {vocalsound} {vocalsound} Oh sorry . {vocalsound} And {gap} an uh a nice agenda . {vocalsound}Uh we'll do the opening and then uh we'll meet each other , what uh we already do , so , that's not uh very much trouble . I'll I'll show you the the tools we have here , so that we can all use them . Then uh we'll look atthe project plan from uh Real Reaction .Marketing: {vocalsound}Project Manager: We'll discuss about our first ideas about the project , and then uh we'll close the meeting , and then we can uh individually uh do ourthings and then uh we'll get back here . So {vocalsound} this the opening we'll uh {disfmarker} We have to uh design a new television remote control . You have heard that uh already I think , so .Marketing: Mm-hmm.Project Manager: Um we want it to be original , so a nice uh a nice new design . Uh trendy , it's {vocalsound} also for young people , and we have to just uh make it uh modern . And uh friendly , so size does matter .And uh {disfmarker} Well it has to be a have the the right uh the right buttons on the right place , that kin those kind of things .Industrial Designer: Mm-hmm .Project Manager: Other uh {disfmarker} There happen tobe uh three stages . {gap} functional , conceptual , and d detailed design . Um so every time we we'll do some individual work , get meeting , talk about it , uh and then go into the next phase . That's just it .{vocalsound} Um {disfmarker} We have uh these two Smartboards . Um well as I just showed , there's a project management folder , a project document folder on the desktop . It just works exactly the same as acomputer . You just uh click on the on the folder and you open the everything you you put in it with your laptop . So you can uh make uh {vocalsound} Words Excel , everything . Um and the w the r uh the rest uh alsoworks the same so uh when you open a notepad you uh you just get your uh things , you can uh draw . This is a uh well a drawing board . {gap} you have a {disfmarker} these different uh functions on the board . Youcan see them there . So you have a a nice pen , and it's works just like a bal ball pen . {vocalsound} This is just a {gap} . I want to uh {disfmarker} Oh yeah . Of course w {vocalsound} doesn't work any more .{vocalsound}Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} {vocalsound}User Interface: {vocalsound}Industrial Designer: Maybe you should try to write on the on the big white uh {disfmarker}Project Manager: Yes I will{disfmarker}Industrial Designer: Does it ? Yeah . It works .Project Manager: eraser {gap} so .Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} {vocalsound} Wonderful .Project Manager: It's fantas fantastic . We can uh uh well youcan save a file . So if uh we draw we have to save everything . Don't throw anything away .Industrial Designer: Mm-hmm .Project Manager: Uh just we can start a new one , and we just go on , and don't throw anythingaway .Marketing: {vocalsound}Project Manager: Just uh let them all uh stand here . We can delete , but we don't do that . Um you can here select a pen , you can draw anything you want . It's a bit uh childish youhave to write . It's not as fast as you w you know it , but it does work sometimes .Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} {gap} .User Interface: {vocalsound}Marketing: {vocalsound}Project Manager: {vocalsound} Wellit's just like a normal uh paint .Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}Project Manager: So it's gone .Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Alright , yep .Project Manager: Well we are designers , so we have to have a a more uha Smartboard . So that's fantastic . Um well this uh speaks for itself . We going to try it . So um we all uh are going to uh draw a nice animal on this board ,User Interface: {vocalsound}Industrial Designer:{vocalsound}Marketing: {vocalsound} {vocalsound}Project Manager: not my idea . {vocalsound}Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}Marketing: Alright , your favourite animal ? {vocalsound}Project Manager: Yes ouryour favourite . So um I'm to going to have to draw a kangaroo ,Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}Project Manager: but I'm going d I'm not going to . I'm just uh going to uh well draw a nice uh beastMarketing:{vocalsound} Grizzly bear . {vocalsound}Project Manager: w I dunno what I'm going to design .Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}Project Manager: Oh um {vocalsound} doesn't {disfmarker} oh .Industrial Designer: Ihope this was part of the assignment and not uh your uh {disfmarker}Project Manager: Yeah , 'kay . Hmm ?Industrial Designer: I hope this was part of the assignment and not uh your personal uh enjoyment.Marketing: {vocalsound}Project Manager: I just said it's not my ideaMarketing: Yeah .Project Manager: but I am the Project Manager ,Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}Project Manager: and officially this is my idea .{vocalsound} So {disfmarker} {vocalsound}User Interface: {vocalsound}Industrial Designer: I I I {vocalsound} I understand . Alright .Marketing: We're kinda losing time , though .Project Manager: what ?Marketing:We're losing time , but {disfmarker}Project Manager: Ah {vocalsound} the first the first meeting is just a bit uh loose , loosen up , a bit uh meeting each otherIndustrial Designer: {gap} so start {disfmarker}Marketing:Alright .Project Manager: {gap} well uh uh nice yeah . {vocalsound} ShIndustrial Designer: {vocalsound} Yep yes .Project Manager: I hope our Industrial Designer does this better because uh this is uh{disfmarker}Industrial Designer: Don't uh count on it .Project Manager: No {vocalsound} {vocalsound} so a a few legs .Marketing: Do we have to guess ?Project Manager: {vocalsound} Yes yesMarketing:{vocalsound} A hippo ? {vocalsound}Project Manager: guess . {vocalsound} Well I should make it an hippo now . {vocalsound}User Interface: {vocalsound}Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} I think it's a mouse or arat .User Interface: {vocalsound}Marketing: Yeah .Project Manager: {vocalsound} No I don't think so .Marketing: {vocalsound}Industrial Designer: Oh . Oh I know it .Project Manager: Well what is it , huh ?IndustrialDesigner: It's a hedgehog .Marketing: I don't know how to call it .Project Manager: YeahMarketing: A hedgehog ? {vocalsound}Project Manager: {gap} difficult English word . I didn't knew it myself {gap} .{vocalsound}Marketing: {gap} .Industrial Designer: Well I'm amazed uh about your uh drawing skills . {vocalsound}Marketing: {vocalsound}Project Manager: Our characteristics sum it up . Well it's uh very{vocalsound} uh painfulIndustrial Designer: {vocalsound}Marketing: {vocalsound}Project Manager: {disfmarker} {vocalsound} those kind of thing . So we can uh just uh {disfmarker}Marketing:{vocalsound}Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Yeah .Marketing: {vocalsound} {vocalsound}Project Manager: We're going back and now uh our Industrial Designer can uh draw its uh most favourite animal .IndustrialDesigner: {vocalsound} {vocalsound} I am the Industrial Designer .Marketing: Alright . Thank you .Project Manager: Huh .Industrial Designer: Chief , I am the Industrial Designer .Project Manager: Oh uh but this uhmarketing designer .Industrial Designer: Yeah .Project Manager: {vocalsound}Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} I think {disfmarker} It's pr it resembles {vocalsound} the animal drawn by {gap} .Marketing:{vocalsound}Project Manager: {vocalsound} {gap}Marketing: It's {gap} . {vocalsound}Project Manager: what kind of animal is that then ? {vocalsound}Industrial Designer: I think {disfmarker} can I say it?Marketing: Yeah sure .Project Manager: Uh it {gap} . {vocalsound}Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}User Interface: {vocalsound}Marketing: It's a rabbit . {vocalsound} Well {disfmarker} Looks very nice , right?Project Manager: Yeah .Industrial Designer: It looks amazing .Project Manager: No no no . What are you going to do ? {vocalsound}User Interface: We want to erase it . {vocalsound}Project Manager: No no.Marketing: {vocalsound}Project Manager: No no save it and start a new uh {disfmarker} save it and start a new black uh doc {gap} a blank document .Industrial Designer: These are very impor{vocalsound}Marketing: Yes .Industrial Designer: These are very important documents , of course , uh these drawings , uh {disfmarker}Project Manager: Yeah well we have to save everythingMarketing: Yes uh right.Project Manager: so now um the next one uh {disfmarker} {gap} and then save it and start an blank document .User Interface: {vocalsound} Thanks .Marketing: You go man .Project Manager: {vocalsound} Yeah .There's also different colours and different uh well pen widths uh the line the the thickness thickness .Marketing: Alright .Project Manager: So um well you should uh try it but uh {disfmarker}Marketing: I should havemade mine a white rabbit . {vocalsound}Project Manager: Well y y y you could have but uh {vocalsound} .Industrial Designer: And he deliberately draws a animal we don't know the English word for .Project Manager:It speaks for itself .Marketing: {vocalsound}Project Manager: {vocalsound} What the {disfmarker} {vocalsound}Industrial Designer: It looks like an uh {disfmarker}Project Manager: uh just a duck .{vocalsound}Industrial Designer: It looks like that beast from Sesame Street .Project Manager: {vocalsound} Nice . {vocalsound}Marketing: {vocalsound} {gap} .Industrial Designer: Yeah .User Interface: Big bird .{vocalsound}Project Manager: {vocalsound} Is it a duck ?Marketing: You're standing in front of it ,Industrial Designer: It's it's uh {disfmarker}Project Manager: Is it a plane ? {vocalsound}Marketing: I can't see it .Alright , thank you . Yeah it's a bird , but what kind of bird ?Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}Project Manager: It doesn't draw uh circles uh that easy uh .Industrial Designer: Do we have to uh {disfmarker}Marketing:You have to push harder .Project Manager: Yeah just a bit a bit childish ,User Interface: Mm .Project Manager: a bit {vocalsound} .Industrial Designer: But we have uh {vocalsound} do we have to name the specificspecies of the bird ?Marketing: Release your anger .User Interface: {vocalsound}Marketing: {vocalsound}Project Manager: {vocalsound}User Interface: {vocalsound} Uh no I don't .Industrial Designer: No ?UserInterface: It's just a bird .Project Manager: Well uh save the documentIndustrial Designer: Well wonderful .Project Manager: and then uh {disfmarker}User Interface: {vocalsound}Marketing: {vocalsound}ProjectManager: And then a a new blank document for {gap} . {gap} uh will uh choose a new colour and a new pen width so w we can all see it .User Interface: Here you go .Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Why do I haveto do the difficult tasks ?Project Manager: No well firstIndustrial Designer: Uh pen {disfmarker}Project Manager: yeah .Industrial Designer: yeah that's {gap} .Project Manager: And then you go to format I think{vocalsound} , and current colour {gap}Industrial Designer: Uh current colour .Project Manager: you choose a new colour . {vocalsound} And a new pen width uh {gap} also format .Industrial Designer: I like uh{disfmarker}User Interface: Mm .Industrial Designer: oh they don't have pink . {vocalsound} Oh b oh {vocalsound} think this is uh {disfmarker}Project Manager: It's not like in paint . Line width .Industrial Designer:Uh ? Uh {disfmarker}Project Manager: And you can choose a nice one .Industrial Designer: Line width .Project Manager: Width width .User Interface: Width .Project Manager: With each other .Industrial Designer: Uh{vocalsound} {vocalsound} fifteen .Project Manager: {vocalsound}User Interface: Hmm .Industrial Designer: And I can draw ?Project Manager: Yeah . {vocalsound} So . Just a wa that's the way we do {gap}IndustrialDesigner: Uh {disfmarker}Project Manager: it's quite easy .User Interface: {vocalsound}Marketing: Hmm . {vocalsound}Project Manager: Mm-hmm . {vocalsound}Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}User Interface: It'sa pussy cat .Marketing: It's a cat . {vocalsound}Project Manager: Oh Pussy . {vocalsound}Industrial Designer: Oh the line width is too thick , but oh well .Project Manager: Well then you change it . And erase things.Industrial Designer: Uh .Project Manager: {vocalsound} What ? {vocalsound}User Interface: {vocalsound}Marketing: {vocalsound} It's a pig . {vocalsound}Industrial Designer: It smiles nicely .Project Manager:Super pig . {vocalsound}Industrial Designer: Now {vocalsound} I have to change the line width . {vocalsound} Uh one {vocalsound} {gap} .Project Manager: So {disfmarker} {vocalsound} Yeah yeah yeahIndustrialDesigner: These are {gap} whiskers , you know .Project Manager: we know . {vocalsound}Marketing: Right .Industrial Designer: Uh well I think it's obvious right now .Project Manager: Yes alright . It's a cat .{vocalsound}Marketing: No it looks great .Industrial Designer: Miaow .Project Manager: {vocalsound}Industrial Designer: Well if this isn't obvious {disfmarker}Project Manager: Well well um {disfmarker}Marketing:Just save it . {vocalsound}Project Manager: Yeah save it {vocalsound} and {vocalsound} start a new blank document .User Interface: {vocalsound}Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} I'll save it {vocalsound} alright uhsave . Uh yeah uh blank .Project Manager: Yep . So that's uh what we're going to use when we uh need it .Industrial Designer: Well I feel comfortable now .Marketing: Oh great .Project Manager: Well {vocalsound} it'sterrific , eh ? {vocalsound}User Interface: {vocalsound}Industrial Designer: Thanks for this exercise . I feel totally at ease .Marketing: It's good for group spirit . {vocalsound}Project Manager: Yeah that's it .{vocalsound}User Interface: {vocalsound} It certainly is . {vocalsound}Project Manager: We're one big happy family now . {vocalsound}Marketing: {vocalsound}Industrial Designer: Yeah something like that .ProjectManager: Well then uh the serious uh stuff . We're we want to sell it at twenty five Euros internationally um so um but we dunno what exactly th i it is in dollars , but uh twenty five Euros . Our profit aim is , worldwide ,fifty million Euros . So I didn't uh exactly uh calculate how much we have to sell .Industrial Designer: So {disfmarker} {vocalsound}Project Manager: {vocalsound} {gap} we want to keep it our costs at twelve and ahalf Euros so , keep uh that in mind when we uh talk about our uh materials an f and stuff , and uh marketing uh research .Industrial Designer: Alright .Marketing: Right .Project Manager: Now then we all uh we can uhsit down and discuss uh what do we think about our current remote controls , first {gap} about design uh about uh aim in the market etcetera ?Marketing: Right .Project Manager: Well uh we c we can sit down uhbecause uh presentation can wait . We can uh take notes {vocalsound} and uh {disfmarker} Well who has uh some uh remarks about the current uh remote controls ? Please ? {vocalsound}Industrial Designer: Well I Ididn't have to prepare anything about uh {disfmarker} {gap}Project Manager: No uh I did . {vocalsound}Industrial Designer: it's not , it's it's not my task to uh talk about uh experience with current remote controls ,but uh {disfmarker}Project Manager: Well uh just w we're uh four uh if we if we would just have one then {disfmarker}Marketing: I think it's im it's important to uh look at uh the remote controls of our competitors.Project Manager: Yeah .Marketing: Get the good points uh try to merge them into one universal remote control .Project Manager: Yeah yeah .Marketing: On our corporate site I saw uh a new D_V_D_ player uh we'regonna produce .Project Manager: Yep . That's alright .Marketing: Maybe it's important to make it compatible with the D_V_D_ playerProject Manager: That would be a nice idea , yes .Marketing: so you can uh use yourtelevision and your D_V_D_ player with the same uh remote control .Project Manager: Yep yep yep .Marketing: Furthermore it's important to make it uh acceptable for the whole world , for different cultures , maybe ,because we want to we want to {gap} well fifty million ?Project Manager: Yes fifty million is our aim to a profit , so .Industrial Designer: Mm-hmm .Marketing: Yeah yeahUser Interface: {vocalsound}Marketing: so a lotof people have to be able to use it .Industrial Designer: No but uh the b the buttons have to uh have to have uh international recognisable buttons and uhMarketing: So {disfmarker}User Interface: Easy to learn.Marketing: Yeah . Yeah that's right .Project Manager: Yes .User Interface: Yeah .Industrial Designer: and numbers and uh that every culture in uh , yeah , people in every country can recognise .User Interface: Yeah.Project Manager: I'll make uh notes and then uh maybe uh {disfmarker} well I'll put it in the project uh folder when I'm done uh just now .Marketing: Mm-hmm .User Interface: I also think we should not add too manybuttons .Industrial Designer: Alright .Marketing: Right .Project Manager: No that's right .User Interface: Modern day uh remotes have {vocalsound} too much buttons I think .Project Manager: Y y you don't use uh thehalf of them that's that's {gap}User Interface: Precisely .Project Manager: culture uh international .Marketing: Maybe we could make one button to switch between D_V_D_ player and T_V_User Interface: Yeah.Marketing: and make the other buttons uh multi-functional or something .Project Manager: Yes .User Interface: Yeah indeed .Industrial Designer: Yeah so it doesn't uh become too complicated with too much buttonsand uh {disfmarker}Marketing: Yeah right .Project Manager: Yep , and maybe we do uh {vocalsound} we even have uh more than just a D_V_D_ player . Don't we have uh other uh ouUser Interface: Yeah we shouldmake it compatible perhaps with everything we use , we uh we make ?Project Manager: Uh .Industrial Designer: And stereo uh s uh audio installations .Project Manager: We also uh just uh released a T_F_T_ uh thing Isaw .Marketing: Yeah so but th that's kind kind of standard T_ television so it also works on that .Project Manager: Yeah .User Interface: Yeah .Project Manager: Yep .User Interface: And I think the people who who willbuy our uh remote already have some experience with remotes . So we can keep that in mind .Industrial Designer: Most people do , yeah .Project Manager: Well yeah .Industrial Designer: It doesn't {gap}ProjectManager: It doesn't have to be , but we can .User Interface: {vocalsound}Industrial Designer: it doesn't have to be {disfmarker}User Interface: W well it's a n it's a new remote and you don't buy a remote if you don'thave anything to uh to control with it .Project Manager: Well except if we deliver it together with our D_V_D_ .Marketing: Yeah but {disfmarker}Industrial Designer: Yeah .User Interface: Yeah alright , but{disfmarker}Marketing: We need to to keep it consistent with other d uh {disfmarker}Project Manager: Yeah because we look at competitorsIndustrial Designer: Well .Project Manager: and w if we pick up the goodthings about that and give it a nice design {disfmarker}Industrial Designer: Hmm .Marketing: Yeah but it's {disfmarker} it has to be useable .Industrial Designer: It has to be different and familiar at the same time.Project Manager: Yes .User Interface: Yeah . YeahMarketing: Yeah .User Interface: we could use another form or shape or colour , that kind of things .Project Manager: Yep .Industrial Designer: {gap} yeah the shapewill will have to be recognised . I thought about uh like most uh remote controls uh are uh a long box shaped thing {gap}Project Manager: Yeah .Industrial Designer: you can make it uh triangle shaped ,User Interface:Well we we could make more more oval or something , and and {disfmarker}Industrial Designer: but that's not uh very recognisable .Marketing: {vocalsound} No .Project Manager: OoIndustrial Designer: Oval ?ProjectManager: N we can use uh it as a as a game pad .User Interface: Yeah or soIndustrial Designer: I {disfmarker}Project Manager: So {vocalsound} one hand has the beer , so the other hand uh {disfmarker}


Lynne Neagle AM: Good morning, everyone. Welcome to the Children, Young People and Education Committee. We've received no apologies for absence this morning. Can I ask if there are any declarations of interestfrom Members, please? No. Okay. Thank you. Item 3 this morning then is a scrutiny session on early childhood education and care, and I'm very pleased to welcome Julie Morgan AM, Deputy Minister for Health andSocial Services; Jo-anne Daniels, director of communities and tackling poverty at Welsh Government; and Nicola Edwards, deputy director of the childcare, play and early years division in Welsh Government. Thank youall for your attendance. We’re very much looking forward to the session. If you're happy, we'll go straight into questions, and the first ones are from Hefin David.Hefin David AM: Good morning, Deputy Minister. Whatare your primary objectives? Is it supporting the development of children or getting parents into work?Julie Morgan AM: Well, I think you'll be aware from the range of programmes that we've got that we do feel it’simportant to support both children and parents. There's obviously lots of evidence to show how important the early years are for children, how important they are for their development, and so, that is one of ourprimary objectives. But we also know how important it is for parents to have stable jobs, reasonably paid, so that can also help with the development of the children. So, we really see it that our plans are for bothparents and children, and we believe that a high-quality, early-childhood education and care system can provide that. And, of course, in terms of when we talk about jobs as well, I think it’s really important toremember that the childcare system is a big employer as well and a very important employer. So that, actually, itself provides jobs.Hefin David AM: So, the evidence we've seen suggests that, historically, Governmentsin the UK and devolved have focused on primarily getting parents into work. So, are you suggesting then that your focus is to change that and move towards early child development?Julie Morgan AM: No, what I'msaying is that we want to give parents the opportunity to work. We don't want childcare to be a barrier to parents working because we think that working is one the best routes out of poverty, but we do also want tomake sure that children have the greatest experience that they can have in the early years. So, we see it as one.Hefin David AM: Okay. And that's quite a policy challenge to deliver both at the same time.Julie MorganAM: The situation as it is is complex, and I think it needs simplifying. It is a challenge, but it’s probably one of the most important challenges we've got in Government, because what we offer to families with youngchildren is one of the most important things we do.Hefin David AM: And in your evidence to the committee, you said that the Welsh Government’s approach 'will build on a wide variety of programmes that arecontinually developing in order to support parents, families and children during the early years.' And you've just said you want to simplify that. How do you simplify that, particularly with regard to the provision offunding and the way these things connect from the birth of a child into school? How will simplification look, and what will happen?Julie Morgan AM: Well, we're not at the stage of being able to say what it will look like atthe moment, but we're looking at ways of simplifying, because I think it’s absolutely right, it is a very complex system, because it’s grown up from all different routes. But we are having lots of pilot projects that arelooking at ways of simplifying the system. We have got pathway projects in, I think it’s eight local authorities, who are looking at ways of joining up the whole system. So, we are looking at that, and I absolutely exceptthat it is very complex and we want to find ways of making it simpler and easier to understand. So, we are working with local authorities and health boards to see how we can actually work together and simplifythings.Hefin David AM: And it's good to hear that that's your objective. Can I just come back to the first thing you said: 'We can't say yet what we're going to do'?Julie Morgan AM: No.Hefin David AM: So, when will wehave a policy plan and something that we can interrogate in more detail?Julie Morgan AM: Well, I think we are near getting to an announcement where we will be able to say what direction we're going in, and becausewe have had—. Some of this work has been going on for a year or so, and we're getting the results of those pathfinder projects coming in. So, when we do have all those results, we will be able to say the direction thatwe want to go in, and I hope we'll be able to do that very soon.Hefin David AM: Before Christmas?Julie Morgan AM: I hope so.Hefin David AM: Okay. And finally from me—Julie Morgan AM: I'm sorry I can't say too muchabout that because we haven't actually—. We need to—.Hefin David AM: Well, it does sound like something is imminent.Julie Morgan AM: Yes.Hefin David AM: Okay. And that's as far as you're willing to go. And if that'sas far as you're willing to go, then I'll stop asking.Lynne Neagle AM: I've got a supplementary from Siân.Hefin David AM: Okay.Julie Morgan AM: Yes, that's fine.Sian Gwenllian AM: I just want to understand a littleabout the pilot, the pathfinders in eight local authority areas. Is the focus there on the child or is it on parents returning to work?Julie Morgan AM: The focus is on an early years system, but we've worked both locallyand nationally. So, it's looking at both. I mean, actually, I think, perhaps, Nicola, would you like to or one of you like to describe one of the programmes?Sian Gwenllian AM: And can you just explain the vision? Is it achild-centred early years provision that we're thinking of in these pathfinder—?Jo-Anne Daniels: So, in 'Prosperity for All', we set out that early years was one of the key priority areas, and within that we said that wewanted to create a more joined-up and more responsive system. So, when we talk about a system, we're talking about the services that are provided by health boards, so health visiting, midwifery, speech and languagesupport, other kinds of therapeutic services, as well as all the important services that local authorities are providing, such as support for parenting, advice and guidance, employment support and childcare, obviously.And we've got eight pathfinders. I'll try and remember each of them. So, Flintshire, Newport, Blaenau Gwent, Neath Port Talbot, Swansea, Ceredigion, Pembrokeshire—and then I've missed one, I think, because I'veonly got to seven—who have been working with us to look at how all of those services are currently delivered in their local area and whether and how they can reorganise those services to improve accessibility, toimprove take-up, but essentially to improve the efficacy of those programmes in terms of supporting children, but often, obviously, in supporting children you have to support parents too and support the home.SianGwenllian AM: So, would you say it's a child-centred approach?Jo-Anne Daniels: Absolutely, because it's about making sure that we deliver the best start in life for children in Wales, but obviously parents are a criticalelement of that, so can't be excluded.Lynne Neagle AM: And how long have they been going for?Jo-Anne Daniels: So, those eight pathfinders started their work in—I think it was—February this year. And they're still inthe very early stages in terms of actually unpicking and mapping the current provision of services across their areas and then moving on to the stage where they'll develop proposals for how they might change thedelivery of early years.Lynne Neagle AM: Okay, thank you. Julie.Julie Morgan AM: Just to say also, the one in Flintshire is also testing the impact of consistent funding rates for education and childcare. So, that's beengoing longer than the others. So, that's another important area because there's an evaluation of that project under way at the moment.Lynne Neagle AM: Thank you.Jo-Anne Daniels: Sorry, but Caerphilly was the onethat I forgot to mention.Lynne Neagle AM: Oh dear. [Laughter.]Hefin David AM: That's absolutely unforgivable. [Laughter.]Lynne Neagle AM: Hefin. [Laughter.]Julie Morgan AM: Very significant.Hefin David AM: In yourreport, the 'Alignment of the Childcare Offer for Wales to the Foundation Phase', one of the recommendations was that 'The Welsh Government, local authority education and childcare policy and delivery teams couldmerge'. So, looking behind the scenes, those disparate parts of policy, delivering the foundation phase and childcare offer should merge. Is that the case? Has that been put under way and should we be looking at thisstructure in more depth?Julie Morgan AM: Well, probably not at the structure at this time because the report that you're referring to was looking at the first year of the delivery of the childcare offer and it did make anumber of points, which we have taken on board. For example, we issued guidance last year regarding the delivery of the foundation phase, which supports widening the number of non-maintained settings that are ableto deliver early education and we're also supporting co-location and partnership working between education and childcare providers through our capital investment programme. I think it's about £81 million that we putinto the capital investment where we are developing childcare facilities co-located with the education facilities, because that was one of the things that came out from this report you're referring to. And, I mean,obviously, early years is one of the key priorities within 'Prosperity for All' and, obviously, education sits within one portfolio with the Minister for Education, and childcare is with me. But we're doing what we can to worktogether to try to bring those together, and that was one of the proposals in that report. But it's still very early to think about, at this stage, a structural change.Hefin David AM: And I remember when you were on thecommittee here with me, sitting next to me, we had those discussions about co-location. I know the problem with not having co-location is that you could end up seeing a child travelling between three or more locationsduring the course of a day. Are you suggesting now that the actions you're taking will resolve that issue universally, or will it lead to a piecemeal resolution? And, if so, to what extent, what percentage of children willsee that resolved as an issue?Julie Morgan AM: Certainly, the co-location is not going to solve it universally because although we've been able to develop a lot of new facilities, or build on old facilities, there will be a lotof areas that we won't have covered. So, I can't say that there's going to be a situation where everything is going to be co-located because I don't think that would be feasible, and,for some of the providers, theywouldn't be in a position to move to a school. But ideally it's a good situation, but, certainly, I think the discussions that there were on the committee, it's not ideal to take children for long distances between differentproviders, let alone the effect it has on the climate change issue. It's whether it's good for children as well. So, I can't say that they will ever be co-located, but as I said in response to your earlier question, we areencouraging the development of the foundation phase in non-maintained settings, which, obviously, is quite significant.Lynne Neagle AM: Okay. Thank you. I've got some questions now from Janet Finch-Saunders.JanetFinch-Saunders AM: Thank you, Chair. What is the Welsh Government doing to address the big differences in the amount of early childhood education and care provision available in different parts of Wales?Julie MorganAM: Right. Well, thank you very much for that question. I mean, obviously, it would be good to see a greater degree of consistency, but I think it's important to acknowledge that there are reasons for that variation.Now, early education, of course, is the responsibility of the Minister for Education, and we are aware that different local authorities have adopted different patterns of providing early education. For example, localauthorities are funded to provide 10 hours minimum of the foundation phase for three and four-year-olds across Wales, but there's quite a variance in how much is actually provided, with some local authoritiesproviding a lot more historically. So, it does mean that there is a different pattern across Wales, according to what local authorities do. But what I could say is, of course, the quality is very good, as the Estyn reportshave shown; that the quality provided, the delivery of the foundation phase, is very good. But it does vary in terms of what is offered throughout Wales, and that is the decision of the local authorities, and it is ahistorical thing. I refer to this pilot in Flint, which is trying to test paying the same rate for foundation phase and childcare. We're going to have an independent evaluation on that soon, in November this year, so thatwill help us. Obviously, I think local authorities' role in all this is absolutely crucial because they are the local, nearest people to decide how things develop in their own areas. And then, of course, we've got Flying Start,which is geographically targeted, which uses the data from income benefit to decide which are the areas where that is being delivered. And that is delivered where the highest proportion of children aged nought to threeare living in income-dependent households. So, again, that determines the pattern throughout Wales. With Flying Start being geographically targeted, with the education being determined by the local authorities abouthow much there is, we know that there is a variance throughout Wales. We'd like to see facilities developed in each local authority throughout Wales that would answer the needs of the families and the children in thoseareas.Lynne Neagle AM: Before you move on, Janet, Siân's got a supplementary.Sian Gwenllian AM: Just in terms of the foundation phase, there have been cuts, of course, in expenditure in that phase. How concernedare you about that and the impact that that will have on the way in which the foundation phase is taught in our schools? The foundation phase is now part of the education improvement grant, which has seen areduction of 10 per cent, and it has to compete against other expenditure streams within that greater pot of funding. So, are you concerned that money is being lost and that that will have an impact on standards in thefoundation phase?Julie Morgan AM: I haven't seen any evidence. Obviously, I must reiterate the foundation phase does come under the Minister for Education, but I haven't seen any evidence of any standards beinglowered, and the reports from Estyn are very good. In fact, I think the foundation phase is one of our great joys, that we absolutely celebrate it, and so I'd be very concerned if I thought there was any drop in standardsin the foundation phase, and I certainly haven't had any evidence of that. I would want to guard against that.Sian Gwenllian AM: Exactly, but if there are fewer teaching assistants in the system because of the cuts, it'sgoing to impact on standards, at the end of the day.Julie Morgan AM: I think we have to be very careful to see that lower standards are not implemented, because it was groundbreaking when we brought it in, and ithas proved to be a great success, so we want to make sure that's guarded.Lynne Neagle AM: Thank you. Janet.Janet Finch-Saunders AM: Going back to my original question about the big differences in amounts of earlychildhood education and care provision in different parts of Wales, the Welsh and UK Governments have followed a demand-driven approach to the childcare market, with subsidies mainly given to working parents. Isthat a mistake? Should it be more universally available?Julie Morgan AM: Well, some of our provision is universally available in certain areas. For example, the Flying Start provision is universally available ingeographically defined areas, and I think that's very important, because that does mean that there isn't stigma, and so,in those areas, everybody can take advantage of it, and yet it is reaching those who are most inneed because it's reaching those areas. So, I think that there is a purpose behind that. In terms of when you say demand led, could you elaborate on that?Janet Finch-Saunders AM: I know that—we've just had a usefulbriefing from David Dallimore, and, basically, there is this theory that there are too many resources—the demand-driven approach is based more on certain factors: geographic spread in terms of it being moreuniversal, and whether that's the right way. How do children then mix with peers from different backgrounds, in their own peer or age group?Julie Morgan AM: It is demand—Nicola Edwards: [Inaudible.]—because theoffer is targeted at working parents—Janet Finch-Saunders AM: Yes, yes.Nicola Edwards: —obviously, then the amount of availability is based on how many parents apply for it and take it up. Is that the context ofdemand led in that—Janet Finch-Saunders AM: Yes.Nicola Edwards: Right, okay.Julie Morgan AM: It is universally available to all parents who meet the eligibility criteria of working, and I think what you're saying is thatit should be available to everybody.Lynne Neagle AM: I think the point that Janet's making is that some areas have traditionally got more childcare anyway because they have traditionally had more demand in thoseareas, so there's not a level playing field to start from. Is that correct?Janet Finch-Saunders AM: Yes.Julie Morgan AM: I think that, historically, that is definitely true, and when you look at the take-up of the childcareoffer, it's certainly taken up in some areas with a very high take-up rate. I think Ynys Môn was nearly 90 per cent or something—Sian Gwenllian AM: They need more money, because they haven't got enoughfunding.Dawn Bowden AM: So does everywhere.Sian Gwenllian AM: No, to meet the demand.Julie Morgan AM: In other areas, it's much, much lower—in some of the cities, I know. So, there is a big range intake-up—Janet Finch-Saunders AM: So, do you intend to bring something forward to address that?Julie Morgan AM: We are planning to extend it. We're looking at the possibility of extending it to parents who are ineducation and training. So, we are widening the offer, yes. Obviously, we have to wait for the evaluation of that. It would be great to be able to offer it to absolutely everybody, but obviously we have got the finance tolook at in terms of how we do that. But we are certainly planning to expand it.Lynne Neagle AM: We've got questions on the offer in a little while. Janet.Janet Finch-Saunders AM: Does the Welsh Government intend todevelop an integrated approach, then, against all settings? If so, given the current inconsistencies, how can quality be assured?Julie Morgan AM: We are developing a more integrated approach towards the early years.As I've said, we're trying to have the foundation phase operating in more non-maintained settings, and we're already developing that. But Estyn and CIW will continue to inspect and regulate the early years sector toensure standards, and, since January 2019, CIW and Estyn have moved to joint inspections for the non-maintained settings that are offering the foundation phase. So, that is a very positive move, I think, and isabsolutely making sure that standards are maintained, because if we are having the foundation phase in non-maintained settings, that is a challenge where we want to be sure that the standards and the philosophy ofthe foundation phase are maintained. So, we have got the system of inspection to ensure that.Janet Finch-Saunders AM: And finally from me, what specific steps have been put in place to take forward the commitmentsfrom the Welsh Government's 2017 childcare/play early years workforce plan to build a better understanding of the workforce's Welsh language skills to enable support for the sector to be targeted and to identify wherecapacity needs to be built for the future to meet the needs of the early years sector in a bilingual Wales?Julie Morgan AM: We think this is very important, and we're pleased that 29 per cent of children taking up thechildcare offer are in Welsh or bilingual settings, so we think that's very good. We have established a specific programme to develop Welsh language skills in the childcare and play workforce with the National Centre forLearning Welsh, to develop workplace Welsh language skills across the sector. So, we're actually working with that, and I think you've done something with those recently, haven't you? I don't know if you wantto—Nicola Edwards: Yes. So, we have a stakeholder group where we've brought together a variety of people with an interest in the early years, childcare and play sectors, and we had a presentation just last month fromthe national language centre about the education programmes that they're rolling out, and how this is all coming together, which is quite interesting. We've been working quite carefully to make sure that the variety of


PhD A: Eh , we should be going .Professor B: So ne next week we 'll have , uh , both Birger {pause} and , uh , Mike {disfmarker} Michael {disfmarker} Michael Kleinschmidt and Birger Kollmeier will join us .PhD D: Uh -huh .Professor B: Um , and you 're {disfmarker} {vocalsound} you 're probably gonna go up in a couple {disfmarker} three weeks or so ? When d when are you thinking of going up to , uh , OGI ?PhD D: Yeah , like , uh, not next week but maybe the week after .Professor B: OK . Good . So at least we 'll have one meeting with {vocalsound} yo with you still around , and {disfmarker} and {disfmarker}PhD D: Uh - huh .Professor B:That 's good .PhD D: Um , Yeah . Well , {vocalsound} maybe we can start with this . Mmm .Professor B: All today , huh ?PhD D: Yeah .Professor B: Oh .PhD D: Um . Yeah . So there was this conference call this morning, um , and the only topic on the agenda was just to discuss a and to come at {disfmarker} uh , to get a decision about this latency problem .Professor B: No , this {disfmarker} I 'm sorry , this is a conference callbetween different Aurora people or just {disfmarker} ?PhD D: Uh , yeah . It 's the conference call between the Aurora , {vocalsound} uh , group .Professor B: It 's the main conference call . OK .PhD D: Uh , yeah .There were like two hours of {pause} discussions , and then suddenly , {vocalsound} uh , people were tired , I guess , and they decided on {nonvocalsound} a number , two hundred and twenty , um , included eincluding everything . Uh , it means that it 's like eighty milliseconds {pause} less than before .Professor B: And what are we sitting at currently ?PhD D: Um .Professor B: Yeah .PhD D: So , currently d uh , we havesystem that has two hundred and thirty . So , that 's fine .Professor B: Two thirty .PhD D: Yeah . So that 's the system that 's described on the second point of {pause} this {vocalsound} document .Professor B: So it 's{disfmarker} we have to reduce it by ten milliseconds somehow .PhD D: Yeah . But that 's {disfmarker} Yeah . That 's not a problem , I {disfmarker} I guess .Professor B: OK . W It 's {disfmarker} it 's p d primary{disfmarker} primarily determined by the VAD at this point ,PhD D: Um .Professor B: right ?PhD D: Yeah .Professor B: S so we can make the VAD a little shorter .PhD D: Yeah . At this point , yeah .Professor B: That 's{disfmarker}PhD D: Yeah , uh - huh .Professor B: Yeah . We probably should do that pretty soon so that we don't get used to it being a certain way .PhD D: Uh - huh .Professor B: Yeah .PhD D: Um .Professor B: WasHari on the {disfmarker} on the phone ?PhD D: Yeah , sure .Professor B: OK .PhD D: Well , it was mainly a discussion {vocalsound} between Hari and {vocalsound} David ,Professor B: Hmm .PhD D: who was like{disfmarker}Professor B: Yeah .PhD D: Uh ,Professor B: OK .PhD D: mmm {disfmarker} Uh , yeah . So , the second thing is the system that we have currently . Oh , yes . We have , like , a system that gives sixty - twopercent improvement , but {vocalsound} if you want to stick to the {disfmarker} {vocalsound} this latency {disfmarker} Well , it has a latency of two thirty , but {vocalsound} if you want also to stick to the number{vocalsound} of features that {disfmarker} limit it to sixty , {vocalsound} then we go a little bit down but it 's still sixty - one percent . Uh , and if we drop the tandem network , then we have fifty - seven percent.Professor B: Uh , but th the two th two thirty includes the tandem network ?PhD D: Yeah .Professor B: OK . And i is the tandem network , uh , small enough that it will fit on the terminal size in terms of {disfmarker}?PhD D: Uh , no , I don't think so .Professor B: No .PhD D: No .Professor B: OK .PhD D: It 's still {disfmarker} in terms of computation , if we use , like , their way of computing the {disfmarker} the maps {disfmarker}the {disfmarker} the MIPs , {vocalsound} I think it fits ,Professor B: Mm - hmm . Mm - hmm .PhD D: but it 's , uh , m mainly a problem of memory .Professor B: Right .PhD D: Um , and I don't know how much {pause}this can be discussed or not , because it 's {disfmarker} it could be in ROM , so it 's maybe not that expensive . But {disfmarker}Professor B: Ho - how much memory d ? H how many {disfmarker} ?PhD D: I d I d uh , I{disfmarker} I don't kn remember exactly , but {disfmarker} {vocalsound} Uh . Yeah , I c I {disfmarker} I have to check that .Professor B: Yeah . I 'd like to {pause} see that , cuz maybe I could think a little bit aboutit , cuz we {vocalsound} maybe we could make it a little smaller or {disfmarker} I mean , it 'd be {disfmarker} it 'd be neat if we could fit it all .PhD D: Uh - huh .Professor B: Uh , I 'd like to see how far off we are .PhDD: Mm - hmm .Professor B: But I guess it 's still within their rules to have {disfmarker} have it on the , uh , t uh , server side . Right ?PhD D: Yeah . Yeah .Professor B: OK .PhD D: Mmm .Professor B: And this is still{disfmarker} ? Uh , well , y you 're saying here . I c I should just let you go on .PhD D: Yeah , there were small tricks to make this tandem network work . Uh , {vocalsound} mmm , and one of the trick was to ,{vocalsound} um , use {vocalsound} some kind of hierarchical structure where {pause} the silence probability is not computed by {pause} the final tandem network but by the VAD network . Um , so apparently itlooks better when , {vocalsound} uh , we use the silence probability from the VAD networkProfessor B: Huh .PhD D: and we re - scale the other probabilities by one minus the silence probability . Um . So it 's some kindof hierarchical thing , {vocalsound} uh , that Sunil also tried , um , {vocalsound} {vocalsound} on SPINE and apparently it helps a little bit also . Mmm . And . Yeah , the reason w why {disfmarker} why we did thatwith the silence probability was that , {vocalsound} um {disfmarker}Professor B: Could {disfmarker} ? Uh , uh , I 'm {disfmarker} I 'm really sorry . Can you repeat what you were saying about the silence probability?PhD D: Mm - hmm .Professor B: I only {disfmarker} My mind was some {disfmarker}PhD D: Yeah . So there is the tandem network that e e e estimates the phone probabilitiesProfessor B: Yeah . Yeah .PhD D: and thesilence probabilities also .Professor B: Right .PhD D: And {vocalsound} things get better when , instead of using the silence probability computed by the tandem network , we use the silence probability , uh , given bythe VAD network ,Professor B: Oh .PhD D: um ,Professor B: The VAD network is {disfmarker} ?PhD D: Which is smaller , but maybe , um {disfmarker} So we have a network for the VAD which has one hundred hiddenunits , and the tandem network has five hundred . Um . So it 's smaller but th the silence probability {pause} from this network seems , uh , better .Professor B: OK .PhD D: Mmm . Uh . Well , it looks strange , but{disfmarker}Professor B: Yeah . But {disfmarker}PhD D: but itProfessor B: OK .PhD D: Maybe it 's {disfmarker} has something to do to {vocalsound} the fact that {vocalsound} we don't have infinite training data and{disfmarker}Professor B: We don't ?PhD D: Well ! And so {disfmarker} Well , things are not optimalProfessor B: Yeah .PhD D: and {disfmarker} Mmm {disfmarker}Grad E: Are you {disfmarker} you were going to saywhy {disfmarker} what made you {disfmarker} wh what led you to do that .PhD D: Yeah . Uh , there was a p {comment} problem that we observed , um , {vocalsound} {vocalsound} that there was {disfmarker}there were , like , many insertions in the {disfmarker} in the system .Professor B: Mm - hmm .PhD D: Mmm .Professor B: Hmm .PhD D: Actually plugging in the tandem network was increasing , I {disfmarker} I{disfmarker} I think , the number of insertions .Professor B: Mm - hmm .PhD D: And , {vocalsound} um {disfmarker} So it looked strange and then just using the {disfmarker} the other silence probability helps . Mmm. Um {disfmarker} Yeah . The next thing we will do is train this tandem on more data .Professor B: So , you know , in a way what it might {disfmarker} i it 's {disfmarker} it 's a little bit like {vocalsound} combiningknowledge sources .PhD D: Um {disfmarker}Professor B: Right ? Because {vocalsound} the fact that you have these two nets that are different sizes {pause} means they behave a little differently ,PhD D: Mm - hmm.Professor B: they find different {pause} things . And , um , if you have , um {disfmarker} f the distribution that you have from , uh , f speech sounds is w {comment} sort of one source of knowledge .PhD D: Mm -hmm .Professor B: And this is {disfmarker} and rather than just taking one minus that to get the other , which is essentially what 's happening , you have this other source of knowledge that you 're putting in there . Soyou make use of both of them {vocalsound} in {disfmarker} in {pause} what you 're ending up with . Maybe it 's better .PhD D: Yeah .Professor B: Anyway , you can probably justify anything if what 's usePhD D: Yeah.Professor B: Yeah .PhD D: And {disfmarker} and the features are different also . I mean , the VAD doesn't use the same features there are .Professor B: Mm - hmm .Grad E: Hmm .Professor B: Oh !PhD D: Um{disfmarker}Professor B: That might be the key , actually .PhD D: Mm - hmm .Professor B: Cuz you were really thinking about speech versus nonspeech for that .PhD D: Mm - hmm .Professor B: That 's a good point.PhD D: Mmm . Uh . Well , there are other things that {vocalsound} we should do but , {vocalsound} um , {vocalsound} it requires time and {disfmarker} {vocalsound} We have ideas , like {disfmarker} so , thesethings are like hav having a better VAD . Uh , we have some ideas about that . It would {disfmarker} {vocalsound} probably implies working a little bit on features that are more {vocalsound} suited to a voice activitydetection .Professor B: Mm - hmm .PhD D: Working on the second stream . Of course we have ideas on this also , but {disfmarker} {vocalsound} w we need to try different things and {disfmarker} Uh , but their noiseestimation , um {disfmarker} {vocalsound} uh {disfmarker}Professor B: I mean , back on the second stream , I mean , that 's something we 've talked about for a while . I mean , I think {nonvocalsound} that 'scertainly a high hope .PhD D: Yeah . {vocalsound} Mmm .Professor B: Um , so we have this {disfmarker} this default idea about just using some sort of purely spectral thing ?PhD D: Uh , yeah .Professor B: for asecond stream ?PhD D: But , um , we {disfmarker} we did a first try with this , and it {disfmarker} it {vocalsound} clearly hurts .Professor B: But , uh , how was the stream combined ?PhD D: Uh . {vocalsound} It wasc it was just combined , um , by the acoustic model . So there was , no neural network for the moment .Professor B: Right . So , I mean , if you just had a second stream that was just spectral and had another neuralnet and combined there , that {disfmarker} that , uh , {vocalsound} might be good .PhD D: Mm - hmm . Yeah . Mm - hmm . Mm - hmm . Mmm . Yeah . Um {disfmarker} Yeah , and the other thing , that noiseestimation and th um , maybe try to train {disfmarker} uh , the training data for the t tandem network , right now , is like {disfmarker} i is using the noises from the Aurora task and {vocalsound} {vocalsound} I thinkthat people might , {vocalsound} um , try to argue about that because {vocalsound} then in some cases we have the same noises in {disfmarker} for training the network {pause} than the noises that are used fortesting ,Professor B: Right .PhD D: and {disfmarker} So we have t n uh , to try to get rid of these {disfmarker} {vocalsound} this problem .Professor B: Yeah . Maybe you just put in some other noise , something that's different .PhD D: Mm - hmm . {vocalsound} Yeah .Professor B: I mean , it {disfmarker} it 's probably helpful to have {disfmarker} have a little noise there . But it may be something elsePhD D: Uh - huh .Professor B:th at least you could say it was .PhD D: Yeah .Professor B: And then {disfmarker} if it doesn't hurt too much , though .PhD D: Uh - huh .Professor B: Yeah . That 's a good idea .PhD D: Um . Yeah . The last thing is thatI think we are getting close to human performance . Well , that 's something I would like to investigate further , but , um , I did , like , um {disfmarker} I did , uh , listen to the m most noisy utterances of theSpeechDat - Car Italian and tried to transcribe them . And , um {disfmarker}Professor B: So this is a particular human . This is {disfmarker} this i this is Stephane .PhD D: Yeah . So that 's {disfmarker} that 's{disfmarker}Grad E: St - Stephane .Professor B: Yeah .PhD D: that 's the {disfmarker} the flaw of the experiment . This is just {disfmarker} i j {comment} {vocalsound} {vocalsound} it 's just one subject ,ProfessorB: Yeah .Grad E: Getting close .PhD D: but {disfmarker} but still , uh , {vocalsound} what happens is {disfmarker} is that , {vocalsound} uh , the digit error rate on this is around one percent ,Professor B: Yeah .PhDD: while our system is currently at seven percent . Um , but what happens also is that if I listen to the , um {disfmarker} {nonvocalsound} a re - synthesized version of the speech and {pause} I re - synthesized thisusing a white noise that 's filtered by a LPC , uh , filter {disfmarker}Professor B: Yeah .PhD D: Um , well , you can argue , that , uh {disfmarker} that this is not speech ,Professor B: Yeah .PhD D: so the ear is nottrained to recognize this . But s actually it sound like {pause} whispering , so we are {disfmarker}Professor B: Well , I mean , it 's {disfmarker}PhD D: eh {disfmarker}Professor B: There 's two problems there . I mean{disfmarker} I mean , so {disfmarker} so the first is {vocalsound} that by doing LPC - twelve with synthesized speech w like you 're saying , uh , it 's {disfmarker} {vocalsound} i i you 're {disfmarker} you 're addingother degradation .PhD D: Uh - huh .Professor B: Right ? So it 's not just the noise but you 're adding in fact some degradation because it 's only an approximation . Um , and the second thing is {disfmarker} which is mmaybe more interesting {disfmarker} is that , um , {comment} {vocalsound} if you do it with whispered speech , you get this number . What if you had {pause} done analysis {comment} re - synthesis and taken thepitch as well ? Alright ? So now you put the pitch in .PhD D: Uh - huh .Professor B: What would the percentage be then ?PhD D: Um {disfmarker}Professor B: See , that 's the question . So , you see , if it 's{disfmarker} if it 's {disfmarker} if it 's , uh {disfmarker} Let 's say it 's {pause} back down to one percent again .PhD D: Uh - huh .Professor B: That would say at least for people , having the pitch is really , reallyimportant , which would be interesting in itself . Um ,PhD D: Uh , yeah . But {disfmarker}Professor B: if i on the other hand , if it stayed up {pause} near five percent , {vocalsound} then I 'd say " boy , LPC n twelve ispretty crummy " . You know ?PhD D: Uh - huh .Professor B: So I I I 'm not sure {disfmarker} I 'm not sure how we can conclude from this anything about {disfmarker} that our system is close to {vocalsound} thehuman performance .PhD D: Ye Yeah . Well , the point is that eh l ey {disfmarker} the point is that , um , {vocalsound} what I {disfmarker} what I listened to when I re - synthesized the LP - the LPC - twelve {pause}spectrum {vocalsound} is in a way what the system , uh , is hearing , cuz @ @ {disfmarker} all the {disfmarker} all the , um , excitation {disfmarker} all the {disfmarker} well , the excitation is {disfmarker} is nottaken into account . That 's what we do with our system . AndProfessor B: Well , you 're not doing the LPC {disfmarker}PhD D: in this case {disfmarker}Professor B: I mean , so {disfmarker} so what if you did a{disfmarker}PhD D: Well , it 's not LPC , sure ,Professor B: What if you did LPC - twenty ?PhD D: but {disfmarker} LPC {disfmarker} ?Professor B: Twenty . Right ? I mean , th the thing is LPC is not a {disfmarker} areally great representation of speech .PhD D: Mm - hmm . Mm - hmm .Professor B: So , all I 'm saying is that you have in addition to the w the , uh , removal of pitch , {vocalsound} you also are doing , uh , a particularparameterization ,PhD D: Mm - hmm .Professor B: which , um , uh {disfmarker}PhD D: Mmm .Professor B: Uh , so , let 's see , how would you do {disfmarker} ? So , foPhD D: But that 's {disfmarker} that 's what wedo with our systems . And {disfmarker}Professor B: No . Actually , we d we {disfmarker} we don't , because we do {disfmarker} we do , uh , {vocalsound} uh , mel filter bank , for instance . Right ?PhD D: Yeah , but isit that {disfmarker} is it that different , I mean ?Professor B: Um , {vocalsound} I don't know what mel , {pause} uh , based synthesis would sound like ,PhD D: IProfessor B: but certainly the spectra are quite different.PhD D: Mm - hmm .PhD A: Couldn't you t couldn't you , um , test the human performance on just the original {pause} audio ?PhD D: Mm - hmm . This is the one percent number .Professor B: Yeah , it 's one percent .He 's trying to remove the pitch informationPhD D: Mm - hmm .PhD A: Oh , oh . OK ,PhD D: Mm - hmm .PhD A: I see .Professor B: and make it closer to what {disfmarker} to what we 're seeing as the feature vectors.PhD A: OK . So , y uh , your performance was one percent , and then when you re - synthesize with LPC - twelve it went to five .PhD D: Uh - huh . Yeah .PhD A: OK .Professor B: I mean {disfmarker} We were{disfmarker} we were j It {disfmarker} it {disfmarker} it 's a little bit still apples and oranges because we are choosing these features in order to be the best for recognition .PhD D: Uh - huh .Professor B: And , um , i ifyou listen to them they still might not be very {disfmarker} Even if you made something closer to what we 're gonna {disfmarker} i it might not sound very good .PhD D: Yeah .Professor B: Uh , and i the degradationfrom that might {disfmarker} might actually make it even harder , {vocalsound} uh , to understand than the LPC - twelve . So all I 'm saying is that the LPC - twelve {vocalsound} puts in {disfmarker} synthesis puts insome degradation that 's not what we 're used to hearing ,PhD D: Uh - huh .Professor B: and is , um {disfmarker} It 's not {disfmarker} it 's not just a question of how much information is there , as if you will alwaystake maximum {vocalsound} advantage of any information that 's presented to you .PhD D: Mm - hmm .Professor B: In fact , you {vocalsound} hear some things better than others . And so it {disfmarker} it isn't{disfmarker}PhD A: But {disfmarker}Professor B: But , {vocalsound} I agree that it says that , uh , the kind of information that we 're feeding it is probably , {vocalsound} um , um , a little bit , um , minimal . There 'sdefinitely some things that we 've thrown away . And that 's why I was saying it might be interesting if you {disfmarker} {vocalsound} an interesting test of this would be if you {disfmarker} if you actually put the pitchback in . So , you just extract it from the actual speech and put it back in , and see does that {disfmarker} is that {disfmarker} does that make the difference ? If that {disfmarker} if that takes it down to one percentagain , {vocalsound} then you 'd say " OK , it 's {disfmarker} it 's in fact having , um , {vocalsound} not just the spectral envelope but also the {disfmarker} also the {disfmarker} the pitch {vocalsound} that , uh ,{comment} @ @ {comment} has the information that people can use , anyway . "PhD D: Uh - huh . Mmm .PhD A: But from this it 's pretty safe to say that the system is with either {vocalsound} two to seven percentaway from {pause} the performance of a human . Right ? So it 's somewhere in that range .Professor B: Well , or it 's {disfmarker} it 's {disfmarker}PhD A: Two {disfmarker} two to six percent .Professor B: Yeah , so{disfmarker} It 's {disfmarker} it 's one point four times , uh , to , uh , seven times the error ,PhD D: To f seven times , yeah .Professor B: for Stephane .PhD D: Um .Professor B: So , uh {disfmarker} uh , but i I don'tknow . I do don't wanna take you away from other things .PhD D: But {disfmarker} {comment} but {disfmarker}Professor B: But that 's {disfmarker} {vocalsound} that 's what {disfmarker} that 's the first thing thatI would be curious about , is , you know , i i {vocalsound} when you wePhD D: But the signal itself is like a mix of {disfmarker} um , of a {disfmarker} a periodic sound and , {pause} @ @ {comment} uh , unvoicedsound , and the noiseProfessor B: Mm - hmm .PhD D: which is mostly , {vocalsound} uh , noise . I mean not {pause} periodic . So , {pause} what {disfmarker} what do you mean exactly by putting back the pitch in ?Because {disfmarker}PhD A: In the LPC synthesis ? I think {disfmarker}Professor B: Yeah . You did LPC re - synthesis {disfmarker}PhD D: IProfessor B: L PC re - synthesis .PhD D: Uh - huh .Professor B: So ,{vocalsound} uh {disfmarker} and you did it with a noise source , rather than with {disfmarker} with a s periodic source .PhD D: Mm - hmm .Professor B: Right ? So if you actually did real re - synthesis like you do in


Project Manager: Okay . Everybody found his place again ? Yeah ?Marketing: Yes .Project Manager: That's nice . Okay so this is our second meeting . And uh still failing ? {vocalsound}Marketing: Yeah .Project Manager:Uh now we're going um into the functional design . Um important thing of this phase is that we're going to uh try to get an agreement about the user requirements , technical function design , and the working design .So that we can move onto the second uh phase . But first this phase . Um first an announcement . There's a little adaptation in the air conditioning system . So {disfmarker}Marketing: {vocalsound}Project Manager:{vocalsound} There's our {vocalsound} ghost mouse again . That that means that you can have a little trouble with , little trouble with the air conditioning , that's because of this uh {disfmarker}User Interface: Okay.Project Manager: It's in wing C_ and E_ .Marketing: Okay .Project Manager: So it should be over in a in a while , couple of days . But it's going to be cold anyway , so {vocalsound} I don't think you're gonna need it.User Interface: {vocalsound}Marketing: No .Project Manager: Then our agenda . Now first the opening . Uh this time I will take the minutes . Uh you're going to have a presentation . All of you . Um and we've got fortyminutes for the whole uh prese for the whole uh presentations . So uh I suggest we take about seven minutes per presentation , and then we can have a little discussion about the new project requirements uh whichhave been sent to me . And then the decision on the control functions uh which we wanna include and those which we don't wanna include . So we've got forty minutes for all of it . So I suggest um let's start with thefirst presentation .Marketing: Yes .Project Manager: Um who wants to be first ?Marketing: Think I'll go first .Project Manager: Okay . So {disfmarker}Marketing: {vocalsound}Project Manager: Just maybe it's easier ifyou um {disfmarker} Yeah I think you will tell {gap} your presentation as well . Just which function you have and what you're gonna talk about . {vocalsound}Marketing: 'Kay . My name is Freek Van Ponnen . I'm theMarket Expert . But you already knew that . Um I've done some research . We have we uh have been doing research in a usability lab where we observed um users operating remote controls . Uh we let them fill out aquestionnaire . We had one hundred of these uh test subjects . Uh in addition we did some market research . Uh see what the market consists of . What ages are involved . Well these are three quite astonishing results ,I thought . Um remotes are being considered ugly . F uh seventy five percent of the um people questioned uh indicated that they thought their remote were was ugly . Um and an additional eighty percent indicated thatthey would spend more money on a fancy-looking remote control . So {disfmarker} Um in addition remotes were not very functional . Fifty percent of the people indicated they only loo used about ten percent of thebuttons on a remote control . And fifty percent of the people indicated that their remote tended to get lost in their room . SoUser Interface: Mm .Marketing: some things . Then we did some research to the most relevantfunctions . Channel selection and volume selection um both got a ten on a scale of one to ten for relevancy . The power button got a nine . And teletext got a six and a half . So these are the most most uh importantfunctions on a remote control . Then there are some one-time use function . That's what I like to call them . That uh audio settings , video settings , and channel settings buttons . Which are not really used veryfrequently , but are still considered to be of some importance . Um channel selection was also indicated to be used very frequently . One hundred and sixty eight times per hour . Then these are the {disfmarker} This isthe market . Um sixty percent of the market consists of users between the ages sixteen and forty f six . Um {disfmarker} Main characteristic of this group is that they're very critical on the remote control . Um they liketo use new f new functions . But they also are very critical . They won't spend their money very easily . So {disfmarker} Um the users of forty six to sixty five years cons The make up forty percent of the market . Theyare not really very interested in features . But they do tend to spend their money a lot easier . What I think this indicates for our um design . I think we should make a remote for the future . And this means we wouldum have to focus on the age ages sixteen to forty five . Uh this also makes up most the biggest part of the market , so that will also be where our main profit would be gettable . Um this would mean we would have tomake a fancy design . Um {disfmarker} The results also indicated that um about one quarter of the people questioned thought that the remote control caused R_S_ R_S_I_ . Um this is certainly something to take intoaccount . And thirty four percent thought that it was hard to learn a n how to operate a new control , remote control . So these are two factors that I think should be included in the design . Besides of course that theremote must look very nice . And the functionality {disfmarker} As a lot of people indicated , they only use about ten percent of the buttons , I think we should make very few buttons . Uh this will also be uh beneficialto the design of the remote . Uh I think the most frequently used buttons should be emphasised . Especially the channel selection and audio uh selection buttons . 'Cause they're used most and so they should be robust. They shouldn't break down easily . Um {disfmarker} Then as mo as a lot of people indicated that their um remote got lost in the room , it might be and I say might be because it would um certainly boost the uhproduction costs a lot . But it might be a good idea to make a docking station . And this would , could get a button in it which would send a signal to the remote which would then beep . So you'd know where it is in theroom . And in addition to this it could um recharge the batteries in the remote if you put it in . Then um a surprisingly great deal of people w indicated that um an L_C_D_ screen in the remote control would be preferred. This was um mostly people in the age of sixteen to twenty five . But up till forty five it remains feasible . This would also greatly increase the production costs but I think these are just some small factors we couldconsider .Project Manager: Okay .Marketing: That would be all .Project Manager: Thank you . So anybody have um any questions until now ?Marketing: Any questions ?Project Manager: About functional requirements?User Interface: Mm-hmm .Project Manager: OkayIndustrial Designer: No .Project Manager: that's clear . {gap} Now to the second .Marketing: 'Kay . {vocalsound}Project Manager: {vocalsound}User Interface: Uhokay . Um I've been looking at uh the user interface of it . Um f for the techno f functions uh of of it . Um {disfmarker}Project Manager: Yeah . Yeah you can take your time .User Interface: Okay .Project Manager:We've got uh plenty of time ,User Interface: Mm ?Marketing: YeahProject Manager: so {disfmarker}Marketing: you should go to the top thingy . Slide show .User Interface: Oh .Project Manager: {gap}User Interface:Uh .Project Manager: Yeah . There it is . Yeah .User Interface: Okay .Marketing: Oh yeah .User Interface: Um yeah . I think uh we uh must use the general functions uh of the uh remote control . Uh uh I've do I've uhdone a little uh research on the internet and {gap} not much information about it , {gap} {disfmarker} Um about uh interface but uh {disfmarker} Uh {disfmarker} Yeah I I've been thinking about a simple manner uhto put a lot of functions uh uh in one um in one uh remote control . Uh so uh you've got a lot of devi uh devices like uh D_V_D_ uh uh television , uh stereo . So um {disfmarker} But uh it must be uh user-friendly . Soum uh you c you can't put a a lot of uh functions uh in one uh {disfmarker} Yeah . Uh uh uh {disfmarker} Yeah . In one um remote control .Project Manager: One remote .User Interface: But um {disfmarker} Yeah.Project Manager: {gap}User Interface: Um yeah . Got uh many functions in one uh remote control , um but um yeah you can see , this is uh quite simple uh remote control .Project Manager: {vocalsound}UserInterface: Um few uh buttons but uh {disfmarker} This uh re uh remote control got a a lot of uh buttons . Um uh people uh don't like it , uh so um {disfmarker} Well what uh I was uh thinking about was um uh keepthe general functions uh like they are . So uh like uh the on-off uh button . Uh keep it uh yeah l like a red button . Uh everybody everybody knows it so uh uh you don't have to change that . Um {disfmarker} Mypersonal uh preferences um . Use a display for uh specific uh functions of the different uh device . So um {disfmarker} Wh what I was th uh thinking about was um you've got um {disfmarker} Uh this the remotecontrol uh {vocalsound}Project Manager: {vocalsound} {gap}Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}User Interface: and uh you got here the general functions , uh like uh the on-off button uh sound uh {vocalsound} Idunno um {disfmarker} And um here you've got a s kind of a display . It's a touchscreen . So um yeah you got a general f uh f the functions of the device uh for a D_V_D_ player or uh so um the pl yeah um f for uhplaying uh reverse uh {gap} . And um you got here uh real buttons for uh selecting uh a device . So um this button is for a D_V_D_ or {vocalsound} {disfmarker} So um for every um device you've got a uh a f a b apart uh display of a part buttons . So uh you you never got uh all the buttons uh on w one device .Project Manager: Hmm . {vocalsound}User Interface: So uh that's uh my uh idea about it .Project Manager: 'Kay .UserInterface: Um yeah and {disfmarker} Uh let's see . Uh yeah . So a touchscreen . Uh and um th the buttons uh the real buttons uh we have to use um . We better c um uh use uh quite uh large buttons uh for um yeah .Everybody uh have to use it so {disfmarker} Uh ol even even old people um young people . So uh we must keep uh buttons uh quite s uh simple and quite large . So uh {disfmarker} Um {disfmarker}Project Manager:Yeah .User Interface: Yeah . Uh yeah . That was uh my uh part of it .Project Manager: Okay .User Interface: So {disfmarker}Project Manager: Anybody has questions about the technical functions ?Industrial Designer:WellProject Manager: {gap}Industrial Designer: I think if we are gonna use a touchscreen uh we're gonna go way above the twelve and a half Euros .Project Manager: Yeah .User Interface: N I I don't think so . Uh yougot uh quite a cheap uh touchscreen . S um it's uh not uh in colour or something .Project Manager: Touchscreen .User Interface: Uh it's just uh um one colo Uh yeah . Uh I seen uh w uh something on the internet uh nottoday but uh a few uh weeks ago . Uh you got uh yeah quite an uh a kind of uh touchscreen um and it's uh {vocalsound} for uh twenty uh Euros or uh less uh .Project Manager: Huh .User Interface: So it's possible.Marketing: Hmm .Project Manager: 'Kay . That's nice . Uh {disfmarker}Marketing: Well it would certainly make a fancy design .User Interface: Yeah .Project Manager: Yeah .Industrial Designer: But the {disfmarker} Itwouldn't be very robust .Marketing: So {disfmarker}Industrial Designer: It's very fragile and you can get scratches on it .Marketing: That is true .Project Manager: That's right .User Interface: Yeah that's true .ProjectManager: Uh maybe we can first um listen to your presentation ?Marketing: We would have to look into that .Project Manager: Uh {disfmarker} And then we {gap} have a little discussion about the requirements and uhdesign .User Interface: Uh .Industrial Designer: That's {gap} . Okay .Marketing: Yeah .Project Manager: {vocalsound}Marketing: {vocalsound}Project Manager: I think it's going to {disfmarker} Uh it's not too much .Okay . {vocalsound}Industrial Designer: Okay I've got a presentation about the working design . Um first about how it works . It's really simple of course . Everybody knows how a remote works . The user presses abutton . The remote determines what button it is , uses the infrared to send a signal to the T_V_ . The T_V_ switches to the frequency , or what function it is . So we've got um the the plate . It gots conductive disks forevery button . When the user presses a button , a signal got sent , goes to the LED and transmits tranmi transmits its to the T_V_ . It's a very simple device , technically speaking . So this is a schematic overview .You've got the buttons . The power source . And uh when a button gets pressed , its goes to the chip . The chip uh controls the infrared bulb and perf perhaps a normal bulb . When you press a button you can actuallysee your pressed button . Well um I think we should use default materials , simple plastics . Keep the inner workings simple , so it's robust . Uh I think we should focus on aesthetics , the design and the user interface ,because if you're going to use high-tech materials the price is going to go sky-high . And uh you only have to design a remote once , and if you use high-tech materials it come back in every product . So it's , in my idea, it's uh it's gonna be smart to invest in di in design and not in uh in the product itself . That's it .Project Manager: Okay . Thank you . Okay .Marketing: {vocalsound}Project Manager: Uh {disfmarker} Okay now I hopeeverybody has a little bit more insight in the functions we all have and what we are doing right now . Um I'm the Project Manager so I'm here to mess things up and uh tell you some new uh requirements .UserInterface: {vocalsound}Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}Marketing: {vocalsound}Project Manager: Um that's , we've uh got to design a um remote which is only suitable for T_V_ . Um that's because {vocalsound} uhit will be too complexUser Interface: Okay .Project Manager: and the time to market will be too big , if we wanna have it uh for more functions . So it has to be simple .User Interface: Mm .Project Manager: Uh anotherpoint is we have to skip the teletext , because in the world of uh upcoming internet uh we think teletext is going to be uh a thing of the past . And uh it's a function we don't need in our remote control .Marketing:{vocalsound}Project Manager: Um internet is also mentioned {gap} in a function we can use . Uh maybe also on televisions it will be available as well . Another one is uh the customer is uh forty plus . Uh that's the themarket we have to to to target , because we are going to develop a new product which is specially designed for the younger customers . Um this is uh a bit pity for the Marketing uh Expert .Marketing: {vocalsound}UserInterface: {vocalsound}Project Manager: {vocalsound} Because he was uh aiming on the the younger persons . So we have to find a market which is above forty plus uh but which will suit our uh remote control , andthe other way round . And we have to be very uh attent in uh putting the corporate image uh in our product . So it has to be visible in our design , in the way our device works . And uh we have to be uh very clear onthis point as well . So I suggest let's have a discussion on the control functions . Yeah .Marketing: So is there any discussion possible about the new product requirement ?Project Manager: {vocalsound} Uh we can seeif we can find a way uh between the functions we wanna use and the market we wanna reach with our product . Um {disfmarker}User Interface: {vocalsound} Mm .Marketing: Yeah 'cause you're you're saying thatteletext is gonna be an old feature and it's not gonna be used anymore anyway pretty soon . And new T_V_s will have internet access on them .Project Manager: {vocalsound}Marketing: But I think if you're targetingpeople of forty plus , the chance that they will have a T_V_ with internet access within the next like twenty years is very slim .User Interface: Yeah .Marketing: In addition people indicated that teletext simply was animportant feature for the remote control . So I think it's pretty dumb to put no teletext feature on it . I'm pretty much against it .Project Manager: Against the no teletext ?User Interface: Mm .Marketing: Yes .{vocalsound}Project Manager: Um {disfmarker}Marketing: Besides that , I think the market for forty plus is like pretty small . But I mean if I s if I see this , it's {disfmarker} I think we're just gonna go foranotherProject Manager: Yeah it's it is {disfmarker}User Interface: {gap} forty {disfmarker}Project Manager: Standard remote .Marketing: prettyProject Manager: No I think we canMarketing: and notinnovativeProject Manager: I think we can do a lot with the design and the simple buttonsMarketing: remote control .Project Manager: which were also mentioned . Uh if we put a lot of effort in those , we can make aremote control with uh just two or three buttons . Or just a remote which is suitable for the market we wanna reach because it is forty percent of the market .User Interface: Yeah .Project Manager: And um if you look inHolland at the whole generation of forty plus , fifty plus , it it's the the biggest share of the of the whole population now .Marketing: Yes but it's not the biggest part of the market .Project Manager: No .Marketing: Andbesides that , they're not very critical so {disfmarker} I mean they don't really care what the remote control is like . They'll just pretty much take the first thing they see and which looks acceptable .Project Manager:But don't you think that if we make a remote which is uh typically made for this market , that people think {gap} {disfmarker} the people think that's the the device I've looked for although I didn't realise it .UserInterface: {vocalsound}Project Manager: So let's try it .Marketing: No . I think that would be the case in the sixteen to forty five age category . because they are critical and they they want to have a fancy remotecontrol .User Interface: Yeah .Marketing: People of forty plus , I mean they want it to work , but as soo as soon as it works it's okay with them .Project Manager: Yeah .User Interface: Mm .Industrial Designer: I thinkthat if we're {disfmarker} If we put our marketing right um we can sell this just like um {disfmarker} I don't know if you've heard about it in the news , the the elderly mobile phone ?Marketing: So {disfmarker}ProjectManager: Yeah . It's a big success .Industrial Designer: Yeah if we if we make a remote control just l with that idea in mind , we could make tons of money , I think .Project Manager: Very big success .Marketing: Ihaven't heard of it .Project Manager: Yeah . Uh . I think so as well .User Interface: Mm .Marketing: Hmm .Industrial Designer: We don't have to focus on on on the on the design then but on functionality . We justchange our focus on the project , and I think we can uh we can sell this .Project Manager: Uh I simply think umUser Interface: {gap}Project Manager: uh that the new products we are gonna make , uh spef specificallydesign , are designed for uh younger people , uh so maybe we can focus ourself on the elderly people . And I think we have to um see what requirements we need for those um remote controls . {vocalsound} 'Causewhat you told is the channel selection is important . Volume selection , power and teletext . {vocalsound}Marketing: {vocalsound} Yes .User Interface: Mm .Project Manager: Okay . Um {disfmarker}User Interface:{vocalsound} Yeah .Marketing: Yes . But obviously the board tends to disagree .Project Manager: No we we haven't voted yet , so {disfmarker} {vocalsound}User Interface: {vocalsound}Project Manager: Uh I thinkteletext can be uh um can be a function as well . But only if uh if it won't higher the the cost , because I don't know if it will be a lot more money to implement teletext as well , but I don't think it will be a problem . Or isteletext a {disfmarker}User Interface: But um deaf people need uh teletext for uh for subtitles .Project Manager: Yeah .User Interface: So it's {disfmarker}Marketing: Yeah , also .User Interface: Yeah .Project Manager:Yeah . So I suggest uh {disfmarker}Marketing: I think it'd definitely be a bad idea not to include teletext .User Interface: It's {disfmarker}Project Manager: Yeah .User Interface: Mm .Project Manager: Is anybody umreally against teletext ?Industrial Designer: No .Project Manager: No ? Just that , that we just keep the teletext . I think that's a good idea as well , especially for the subtitles . Maybe we can make that um another pointof advantage in our remote control , if we uh make a k a button ex for example for big subtitles , which is instantly on the remote control . For elderly people they can think , oh I wanna have subtitles ,User Interface:Yeah yeah .Project Manager: and they push the button and they get the big subtitles .User Interface: Yeah . Yeah .Industrial Designer: Uh that's a good idea .Project Manager: Um so I think teletext can v can be veryuseful in our advantage . Um {disfmarker} Functionality should be few buttons , you said .Marketing: Yes .Project Manager: I think uh that's very important we have a few buttons .User Interface: Yeah .Marketing: