Project Manager: Okay , all set ? Welcome to the conceptual design meeting .User Interface: Uh , okay .Industrial Designer: Yes .Project Manager: The agenda . The opening . I'll again be the secretary and makeminutes , take minutes , uh and it will be three presentations , just like the last meeting . So um , {vocalsound} who wants to start off ? Technical uh designer again ?User Interface: {vocalsound} Again .ProjectManager: Okay .User Interface: Hmm .Project Manager: Uh , yeah . Uh , before we begin it , I want to say I've I've put the minutes of the uh second meeting in the shared folder , but they're still not uh quite okay . Ituh it uh still some technical difficulties so the the first part of the minutes are very hard to read , because there are two documents that uh were layered over each other .User Interface: Mm-hmm .Marketing:{vocalsound}Project Manager: So {disfmarker}Marketing: Okay .Project Manager: But uh , from now on I won't use my pen anymore , so will be p just {vocalsound} ordinary keyboard .User Interface:{vocalsound}Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}Marketing: {vocalsound}User Interface: Uh , may be better , yeah .Marketing: Keyboard work . Yeah .Project Manager: I think it {gap} will will be more uh easy for youto read the minutes .User Interface: Yeah .Marketing: Alright .Industrial Designer: Okay , when we talk about uh components design , um it's really about the material and the {disfmarker} and uh uh really the stuff webuild uh the remote controls of . Um , a remote control consist of uh components and the components of a remote control consist of uh properties and material . We have to choose th uh these uh wisely and it couldaffect uh uh a kind of grow of {disfmarker} in uh in buying uh the remote controls . Um , the components of a remote control are of course uh the case . Uh the properties of the case , um it has to be solid uh in hardmaterial like uh hard plastic uh with soft rubber for uh falling and and uh uh {disfmarker} yeah , it feels uh good in your hand .Marketing: {vocalsound}Industrial Designer: Mm the buttons has to be uh solid too , andthe material is soft rubber . Uh I've got a uh email from the possibilities of Real Reaction . Um uh they're telling me that um when we build uh a remote control of um of plastic or rubber , the uh buttons have to be uhrubber too . Mm {disfmarker} It's okay . Yeah . I when we use a rubbled {disfmarker} a doubled curved case , we must use a rubber push-buttons to {disfmarker} uh the the rubber double-curved case is a is a t uhthree-dimensional uh curve in the in the design , which is uh necessary when we want to be trendy . Uh {disfmarker} UmUser Interface: Oh .Industrial Designer: the energy source , uh I've got a lot of possibilities forthat too . Um , uh the basic battery , which I thi prefer because of its uh its non uh non-depending of of of uh um {disfmarker} Uh here you have to have a hand uh {disfmarker} yeah , kinetic uh energy . Also in uh thisone , like in the watches , but a remote control can lie on a table for a day , and then you push uh a button and {disfmarker} so you don't have to uh walk with it all the all the time . Mm , solar cells are also uh a bitweird for uh remote controls .Marketing: {vocalsound} {vocalsound}Project Manager: {vocalsound} {vocalsound}Industrial Designer: Um uh also the case material , uh I think that plastic is the is the best with rubber ,because uh wood or titanium would also be a bit weird .User Interface: Oh titanium is probably trendy , I think . {gap} .Marketing: That's true , I guess . Yeah .User Interface: Well , maybe a little bit expensive.Marketing: {vocalsound}User Interface: I don't know .Industrial Designer: Uh , they don't tell anything about the cost of uh titanium .Marketing: Huh .Industrial Designer: Um the chip {disfmarker} uh the chip set uhand the board is uh all off the shelf . Also , the speaker in the remote control , when we want to retrieve it . Um , the base station is also off the shelf , all the materials and the components are uh just available in uh inour uh factory . Mm , I've told about uh the three first points . Mm , the simple electronical chip uh is is available uh with the LED transmitter uh transmitter . Uh , it's all uh off the shelf and even the speaker and thewireless retriever are all uh available in our company . Um , another possibility . I uh yeah , I looked up on was uh the L_C_D_ displays . Could be uh something special to our uh remote control , and it's possible , but itonly cost a bit more , but maybe it can be uh within the limits of twenty five Euros .Project Manager: Twelve and a half . Actually {disfmarker}Industrial Designer: Ah yeah .Marketing: Yeah .User Interface: Yeah ,production cost .Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} I th I got an email with uh some examples and it {disfmarker} these were were the most trendiest one .User Interface: {vocalsound}Industrial Designer: You see uh acovers , which can be {disfmarker}Project Manager: What are those , t tooth uh brushes , or soUser Interface: {vocalsound}Industrial Designer: Um , I don't know . Um {disfmarker}Marketing: {vocalsound}ProjectManager: But it's actually kind of uh {disfmarker}User Interface: I {disfmarker}Project Manager: well , it resembles the design I had in mind for this projIndustrial Designer: Yes .Project Manager: You know the thecartoonish {vocalsound} Alessi kind of design .Marketing: Yep .Industrial Designer: Yes , maybe we can uh bri uh bring a couple of uh couple of types of uh {disfmarker}Project Manager: And we can we can steal theirideas .Marketing: {vocalsound}Industrial Designer: maybe a kind of uh whole uh um a whole set of uh different uh remote controls .Project Manager: Huh .Industrial Designer: Maybe we can bring a whole line uh withuh with a {gap} huge variety of uhProject Manager: Well , it's a possibility , too .Industrial Designer: uh house uh stuff .User Interface: Different colours also .Industrial Designer: Like uh {vocalsound} maybe radiosand uh television also uh in this in this {disfmarker} in the same style , but {disfmarker}Project Manager: Uh-uh .Marketing: {vocalsound} Yeah , that'll be for the future , I guess .Project Manager: Okay .UserInterface: {vocalsound} Yeah . {vocalsound}Project Manager: {vocalsound} Next time we're here . {vocalsound}Industrial Designer: Yes , because we have to uh {disfmarker} we have to {disfmarker} {vocalsound}we have to bring the logo and all the stuff uh back into it .Marketing: {vocalsound} Yeah . {vocalsound}Project Manager: Oh , okay .Marketing: Yeah . Definitely .Project Manager: Okay .User Interface: {vocalsound}Okay .Industrial Designer: Thank you . {vocalsound}Marketing: Alright .User Interface: {gap} uh {disfmarker}Marketing: {vocalsound} Yeah . That's okay .User Interface: Ah .Marketing: {vocalsound}User Interface:Well , I shall go to the next slide . UmMarketing: {vocalsound}User Interface: um , I still don't have any information about user requirements .Marketing: {vocalsound}User Interface: I was thinking about just uh thebasic functions and I got uh {disfmarker}Project Manager: Oh , we decided upon that in the last meeting . Didn't we ?User Interface: Yeah , but but then wh I don't know when there are new user requirements .ProjectManager: Oh , okay . Well , tha I didn't receive any new requirements or somethiUser Interface: I ha I ha I have the I have {disfmarker}Project Manager: Just {disfmarker}User Interface: nothing .Project Manager: no, but we decided to use only b basic functions only .User Interface: Well , I have here a couple of basic functions I could think of .Project Manager: Okay .User Interface: I dunno if they're {disfmarker} maybe a little bitmore , but {disfmarker}Project Manager: Well we {disfmarker} maybe we can think of that later . W just {disfmarker}User Interface: Yeah .Project Manager: these are the ones you already summed up in the{disfmarker}User Interface: Yeah , I I uh {vocalsound} well , I pointed them out here , just to make it a little bit easier .Project Manager: Okay .User Interface: Um Another function uh is {disfmarker} of course wealready discuss it on the side . Um , I don't know what costs of it . Uh , I've no idea about it . Uh , I was also looking for what you said , for {disfmarker} I got an email uh uh about uh L_C_D_ in in in front of the remotecontrol . I don't know if that's a good idea , or maybe it's a little bit too much for twelve and a half . Production .Project Manager: Yeah .User Interface: If we got already uh something like a base .Industrial Designer:Uh-huh .Project Manager: That might get redundant also maybe . I don't know what kind of information it would {disfmarker}User Interface: Yeah , I don't know . I d I uh ju I was just thinking about it . Then I got apop-ups to go to the meeting . But {disfmarker}Marketing: Mm yeah .Project Manager: Yeah . Yeah , it's okay .Industrial Designer: Maybe we can bring t uh uh teletext to the t {vocalsound} to the remote control .{vocalsound}User Interface: The remote control .Marketing: {vocalsound} Then you {disfmarker}Project Manager: {vocalsound}User Interface: {vocalsound} {gap} a little uh too {disfmarker} {vocalsound} A little bit{disfmarker}Marketing: and then you've got a flag s {vocalsound} Very big R_C_ . Yeah .Project Manager: Okay . {vocalsound} That's not {disfmarker} {vocalsound} It was not a good idea .User Interface: A little bittoo big , I think . Exactly .Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}Marketing: {vocalsound}Project Manager: Okay .User Interface: Um , yeah . Well , the functions are are not more to discuss , I think .Project Manager: No .No .User Interface: It's it's just the base things we already discussed that the {disfmarker} no V_C_R_ or that kind of {disfmarker}Marketing: No .User Interface: uh , so that's very easy . Um {disfmarker}ProjectManager: But you do mention the next and previous uh button .User Interface: Mm-hmm .Project Manager: {gap}User Interface: Well , that's next channel . I mean {gap} next channel .Marketing: Next channel ,previous channel .Project Manager: Oh , okay , o okay okay .User Interface: Uh {disfmarker} Um {disfmarker} oh , I I got an email with {disfmarker} {vocalsound} with an uh a remote control with a base .ProjectManager: Huh .User Interface: So , it's uh just an idea . And I um {disfmarker} {vocalsound} uh thinked of the button sizes and I'm not sure uh if they have to be big or uh just small {disfmarker}{vocalsound}Industrial Designer: But you're the expert . {vocalsound}Marketing: I think it depends on the function .User Interface: Well , I'm not a e I'm the expert for user-friendly , but not for trendiness .ProjectManager: Mm-hmm .User Interface: Maybe it {disfmarker} {vocalsound}Marketing: Well , if you save uh {disfmarker} Perhaps uh s tiny buttons aren't user-friendly , then we wouldn't im implement that of course.Project Manager: {vocalsound} {vocalsound}User Interface: {vocalsound} Well uh {vocalsound} {disfmarker}Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}Marketing: {vocalsound}User Interface: okay , that's your point . Um ,yeah . Yeah , okay .Marketing: {vocalsound}User Interface: Yeah , I've nothing to {vocalsound} sIndustrial Designer: {vocalsound}Project Manager: Well , w when we only use basic functions , we have the possibilityto make the buttons larger .Marketing: Oh , that's right .User Interface: Uh , with a little bit larger , yeah .Marketing: Yeah .User Interface: I thought so , but maybe with the {disfmarker}Project Manager: Well , I thinkwe already agreed upon the fact that the the the skip buttons and the cha and the volume buttons , th th those two have {disfmarker} yeah , they have to be large .User Interface: Yeah , that groups .Project Manager:Uh , I mean th th the the two two basic buttons , you know , the {disfmarker} to skip channels and to uh {disfmarker}User Interface: Large ? Yeah .Marketing: Yep .Project Manager: I think {disfmarker} yeah , I don'tknow why , but I think that is {disfmarker} that's t trendy too ,User Interface: Most {disfmarker} the most used uh buttons .Marketing: Those are probably the the thProject Manager: because that's the mo it{disfmarker} it {disfmarker} you know , it's uh acc acc um accentu uh , how do you say it ? It puts an extra accent on the the on the simplicity of our remotes to j to make these two most basic functions extra big , liketMarketing: Yes .User Interface: True . Yeah .Marketing: Those are probably the b four most most used buttons on the th in the remote control .Project Manager: Yeah . And you want to acc accentuate that , you know.Industrial Designer: You did the research .User Interface: Yeah .Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} It's from your research . {vocalsound}Marketing: Sorry ? Yeah , sure . {vocalsound}Project Manager: {vocalsound}So {disfmarker}User Interface: Okay . Uh , that was all yIndustrial Designer: {vocalsound}User Interface: uh personal preference I didn't have .Project Manager: Okay .User Interface: I didn't had any time left .ProjectManager: No uh , that's coo it's cool .Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}Marketing: {vocalsound} You don't care . No , {vocalsound} sorry . {vocalsound}Project Manager: {vocalsound}Industrial Designer:{vocalsound}Marketing: Yeah .User Interface: {vocalsound}Marketing: Oh . Go away .User Interface: It's there .Marketing: Come on .User Interface: Yeah , click on it .Marketing: {gap} .User Interface: Couple time.Marketing: Oh , great . Well , I've done some research again about trends on the internet . Um I've done some investigation , and uh well I uh got some information from fashion watchers from Paris and uh Milan .{vocalsound} Some uh some findings {disfmarker} the most important thing is fancy look and feel of the remote control . Uh , well , we were going to imply that , so that's nice . The second important thing is uhinnovative technology in the R_C_ . Uh , our market really likes really likes that . And uh the third point there in this uh order if {disfmarker} of importance , the third point , is a high ease of use . And uh , well , for theidea , I've put some trends uh for the market of elderly people .Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}Marketing: Dark colours , simple recognisable shapes . So we probably won't do that .User Interface:{vocalsound}Marketing: The younger market likes uh {disfmarker} Well , {gap} the {gap} themes of of this year are uh surprisingly fruits and vegetables and spongy material .Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}UserInterface: {vocalsound}Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}Marketing: I found this image , which is uh {disfmarker} Well , it symbolises the idea of fruits and vegetables . I don't see the spongy part in it . But with a littlebit of fancy {disfmarker}Project Manager: Well maybe c {vocalsound} then we have to do something with Sponge Bob then . {vocalsound}User Interface: {vocalsound}Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}Marketing:{vocalsound} Exactly . I got some ideas {disfmarker}User Interface: {vocalsound}Marketing: Uh well , yeah , pictures isn't really good word , but umIndustrial Designer: {vocalsound}Marketing: some symbols of fruitsor vegetables maybe . Uh , catchy colours .Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}Marketing: Fruit is uh yellow , green , red , whatever .User Interface: {vocalsound}Marketing: So , remote controls in in catchy colours.Project Manager: It doesn't stroke with the with the dark colours .Marketing: Uh , no , we don't want dark colours .Project Manager: {vocalsound} Not the dark colours ? Okay .Marketing: {vocalsound} No , I just putthem there to uh , yeah , uh for general idea .Project Manager: Okay .Marketing: And uh , the docking stIndustrial Designer: {vocalsound}Marketing: uh I think the spongy material is is very irritating for the uh remotecontrol itself . But to {disfmarker}Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}Marketing: Yeah , the {disfmarker} {vocalsound} To implement some spongy thing , maybe we can do it in the in the docking station . At the bottomof the docking station or whatever . And uh , we could bring one line with a dark colour uh to um uh p uh yeah {vocalsound}Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}Marketing: uh uh v how do you say ?Project Manager: Fordiversity or something . Uh {disfmarker}Marketing: Yeah , also a bit for elderly people who are a little bit crazy and want {vocalsound} maybe want a little younger design but still the dark colour .User Interface: Well ,how uh {disfmarker}Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}Marketing: I mean it it it reaches a different market uh , but it it it doesn't cost really much effort to b to uh bring uh like a black R_C_ on the market or whatever .Yes .User Interface: But how do we use uh fruits and vegetables in Christ's {vocalsound} sake with {vocalsound} remote control ?Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}Project Manager: No , but I I I think that uh ourdesign already resembles so a piece of fruit .Marketing: Yeah , there's there's always aUser Interface: Uh , make it a banana ?Project Manager: It's like a pear or something .User Interface: {vocalsound}Marketing: Wellthere there's always empty space of course on a remote control . I mean I think this part of the R_C_ uh well {vocalsound} the upper the upper part or whatever is uh is not not used with buttons , I guess .ProjectManager: No , I don't think you have to do it like {disfmarker}Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}User Interface: {vocalsound}Marketing: So you you can put some fruity things {disfmarker}Project Manager: Yeah , butit that doesn't have to remind you , you know , like explicitly of s our f of a of a specific piece of fruit , but just , you know , like the the the the round curves .Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}Marketing: No , of coursenot .Project Manager: And so y I I think this {disfmarker} y it already sem resembles uh something like a pear to me or something .Marketing: Especially iUser Interface: Yeah , but th {vocalsound} yeah , but that{disfmarker} {vocalsound}Marketing: Yeah , yeah . Yeah , exactly .Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}Project Manager: Yeah .User Interface: Yeah , but that's {disfmarker}Marketing: If we make it little bit greenish.Project Manager: You do get the idea , eh ? The fruity kind of round {disfmarker}User Interface: Yeah uh uh {disfmarker}Project Manager: 'Kay .Marketing: A {vocalsound} and we could use {vocalsound} one of thesefor the uh w what is it ?Project Manager: Yeah , uh {disfmarker} yeah , I don't know .Industrial Designer: Grapes .Marketing: Uh {disfmarker}Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}Project Manager: {vocalsound} Uh , thisis a b yeah . {vocalsound}Marketing: Isn't {disfmarker} Wha whatever .User Interface: But d don't we need a creative artist or something like that to m make it to feel like a a a a vegetable or fruit ?Industrial Designer:{vocalsound}Project Manager: Yeah , yeah . Of course we have uh {disfmarker} {vocalsound}Marketing: Yeah , sure .Project Manager: we have a very big uh the sMarketing: Yeah . Well , w we can uh {disfmarker} wwe can we can produce multiple uh multiple things .Industrial Designer: For a big team of artists . {vocalsound}Project Manager: Of d design team , yeah .User Interface: {vocalsound}Marketing: This is then the uhpear . I don't know the English word , so forget it .Project Manager: {vocalsound} Yeah , but {disfmarker} {vocalsound} It's pear , I guess .Marketing: {vocalsound} And um , maybe , yeah , a b a banana is uh is n{vocalsound} not easy for a remote control , but m yeah .Industrial Designer: But uh but I think we don't have to makeProject Manager: {vocalsound} No .Industrial Designer: we can't make all uh ten designs . Wehave to make one design I th I I think .Project Manager: No , but I think it's it's already what we were were up to .Marketing: Mayb maybe two or three .User Interface: Yeah .Project Manager: Uh , it's {disfmarker} itdoesn't have to resemble uh what I already said , a specific piece of fruit , but just , you know , like a fruity thing going on .User Interface: {gap}Marketing: Yeah . No sure , but but {disfmarker}Project Manager: Andit's {disfmarker} it looks fruity to me .User Interface: {vocalsound}Marketing: B but that's great , and and and what I was {disfmarker}Project Manager: And uh , but I do like the {disfmarker}Marketing: what what Iwas saying , the catchy colours {disfmarker}Project Manager: yeah , I do like uh the f uh to {disfmarker} the idea of making a a y uh , a catchy colour design and a d because I do {disfmarker} I think a dark colourwould be nice too .Industrial Designer: But pictures of fruit , vegetables vegetables {disfmarker}Marketing: Yeah .Project Manager: Maybe it's too much , you know .User Interface: But , we we have to um {disfmarker}There have to be the the the the firm colours , our own uh colours has to be in it .Marketing: Yeah , uh not really . Pictures was a was a bad word , but {disfmarker}Project Manager: Okay , but what are the{disfmarker} This is yellow .Marketing: Well we c yeah .User Interface: Yellow , a Real Reaction .Industrial Designer: Yes , you can put a logo on top of it .Project Manager: But I don't think our our company colours are


Project Manager: {vocalsound} Wouldn't wanna be Project Manager . {vocalsound} Uh , what we going to do .Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}Marketing: {vocalsound}Project Manager: Um , once again I'm uh gonnatake minutes . So , um no presentation for me . Uh , first we have a prototype presentation by G_ and G_ .User Interface: {vocalsound}Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}Project Manager: {vocalsound} Afterwardssome uhUser Interface: Yo .Marketing: J_ and J_ . {vocalsound}Project Manager: eval eval evaluIndustrial Designer: Evaluation .Project Manager: evaluationUser Interface: Evaluation criteria .Marketing: Evaluation.Project Manager: s {vocalsound} sorry .Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}Project Manager: Uh evaluation crit criteria . Uh , in combination with the finance I um {vocalsound} uh I received uh a an uh an Excel uhfileUser Interface: {vocalsound}Marketing: Hmm .Project Manager: which we have to fill in later on . Um , you see . Uh , and then we must see uh if we uh stay under the twelve and a half Euro .Marketing: Hmm .Interesting . Ah , okay .Project Manager: So , that's uh that's a bigUser Interface: {vocalsound} Oops .Marketing: {vocalsound} Cool . {vocalsound}Industrial Designer: Mm-hmm . That's gonna be t problem .ProjectManager: l so let's uh wait it uh umMarketing: {vocalsound} {vocalsound} {vocalsound}Project Manager: we have we have must {disfmarker} uh ,User Interface: Some creative uh {disfmarker}Project Manager: wemust have uh some time for that uh because it will be uh {disfmarker} yeah , quite a lot of mathematics .User Interface: Oh . Yeah .Project Manager: And after that , uh uh an evaluation of uh the process how we uhhow we have done it here with the SMARTboard , with the with our laptops , with the {disfmarker} all uh all this . And uh afterwards , uh we closing . Once again , forty minutes , so uh let's start .User Interface: Okokay .Project Manager: I would g give the word to um G_ and G_ for the prototype presentation .User Interface: Shall I give a short introduction and then uh {disfmarker}Industrial Designer: Yeah , well sure.Marketing: J_ and J_ .Project Manager: J_ and J_ .User Interface: Okay . {vocalsound} J_ and J_ , okay .Marketing: Jane and Jane .Project Manager: {vocalsound}Marketing: 'Kay guys , take it away .User Interface:Take it away .Industrial Designer: Hi .Project Manager: {vocalsound} {vocalsound}Marketing: {vocalsound}User Interface: Um , this was our first concept . We decided to use a single touch-screen . So , we've workedout this concepts , how to how to hold it , where to put the buttons and and stuff . And um , well , we began with uh with a form of shape , that is uh is easy to hold w in one hand , left or right handed .IndustrialDesigner: {vocalsound}User Interface: So , we made i it a little bit less thick and uh it has some ar artistic meaning . No ? This uh isn't nothing . {vocalsound}Marketing: {vocalsound}Project Manager:{vocalsound}User Interface: Idea maybe uh is better .Project Manager: {vocalsound}User Interface: Um well , during the meeting I showed you the concept of uh placing the buttons on top , usable with your thumb ,and uh the menu structure , uh if necessary , with your other hand , so it's just gonna hold it easily .Project Manager: {vocalsound}User Interface: And it has to be acce accessible with your uh other hand too , ofcourse .Project Manager: {vocalsound} {vocalsound}User Interface: So we began uh working out a concept .Industrial Designer: Yeah , uh well , and as you saw , we would just have the basic remote with the panelL_C_D_ uh screen . Well , these would be the main buttons , h you could uh change them later on in your own profile if you want to . But , well it's standard they will be delivered with this kind of uh set-up . We havethe {gap} more advanced menu uh setting right here . We have the sub-menus and stu stuff . We made a top {disfmarker} oh , or a front view . Just so like you wanna uh back view . As you can see , this uh{disfmarker} there , there are uh two uh weird bumps in it .Marketing: {vocalsound}Project Manager: {vocalsound}Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} This is for uh the added uh effect of uh well uh y youth anddynamic . And uh this is for the artistic effect .Project Manager: {vocalsound}Industrial Designer: Well , what we figured is uh we'll show you a picture {gap} later on {gap} you have more b a better idea after that .But , idea is for to stay in balance with these two uh {disfmarker} with these two .Marketing: Hmm .Industrial Designer: And so when you put it on the table , it will just {gap} lay down . It won't {vocalsound} uh rollaround or stuff . But it will lie more in your hand like an old telephone maybe , or like these old uh phones .Project Manager: Mm .Industrial Designer: Y you you may get the idea . So thi this is about uh how we figuredit should be . The s panel we g you would hide with some more uh rubber layers , like we discussed early on . Uh , you would s you wouldn't see the uh straight panel , but more fluidly and round .User Interface: Yeah ,the panel just uh of course goes like this .Industrial Designer: Yeah .User Interface: But the overlaying layer is uh a little bit uh curved and stuff .Project Manager: No , okay .Marketing: Okay .Industrial Designer: Anduh , in these bumps you could actually uh {gap} put some electronics uh that would {disfmarker} you can make a more thinner uh design ,Marketing: Yeah .Industrial Designer: and that would actually look very nice ,yeah .User Interface: Yeah .Industrial Designer: And uh , about the colour , what have {disfmarker}User Interface: Yeah . Oh , we added that this um can be held with your hands for this {disfmarker} maximum is omyeah , one and a half centimetres . So , you have room here for your battery and maybe even other um electronic chips . S and you can just be the the layer of the touchscreen and some {disfmarker} have some wiresunderneath it to make it as uh thin as possible in the middle for good grip .Marketing: Okay . Hmm .Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Yeah , f uh , as colours , do you do you have the picture in uh {disfmarker}UserInterface: Yeah .Industrial Designer: Oh yeah . Now , well this is the idea about uh the bumps . Uh , you can see there's a v a very uh youthful uh dynamic uh exterior . It uh {disfmarker} you just want to hold it you uhyou are young and uh dynamic like us .Marketing: 'S l {disfmarker} it's like an uh Easter egg .User Interface: Yeah .Industrial Designer: Yeah , it's like an e but this is for children . We we want a more adult version .But , this is like a remote control for children .Marketing: {vocalsound}Project Manager: It's called a weemote {vocalsound}Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} {gap} . A weemote .Marketing: Weemote .ProjectManager: Weemote .Industrial Designer: Yeah . Hey , that's actually a brilliant uh marketing stand .User Interface: {vocalsound}Project Manager: {vocalsound}User Interface: Yeah . {vocalsound}Industrial Designer:Uh , but {vocalsound} {disfmarker}Marketing: {vocalsound} Wait what I w got in mind . {vocalsound}Project Manager: {vocalsound}User Interface: {vocalsound}Industrial Designer: So this actually basic the idea .We we just want to build a more uh adult vers adult version of of this .Project Manager: Yeah , I can imagine that .Marketing: Mm-hmm .Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} And and for colours , we we figured startingwith basic colours like uh white or metallic grey . Those are the technological colours actually ,User Interface: Yeah . It would be best to to appeal to a broad public and make the covers exchangeable ,IndustrialDesigner: so it dUser Interface: so the young people will buy an orange and a red and blue and a purple ,Industrial Designer: Or blue or whatever .User Interface: but when the o older people uh go in the shop and theysee uh an orange um remote control , it would be less appealing than a white one . And young people , we think , are a little bit more flexible ,Marketing: Hmm .User Interface: they think , ah I'll buy for a couple ofEuros some noi nice hip uh {disfmarker}Marketing: Hmm . Maybe it's an idea to sell it without a cover , so that you can pick a cover in the in the shop .User Interface: Well , um I think a cover is necessary , 'cause alsotherwise you'll just have the L_C_D_ screen .Marketing: Yeah , okay . Yeah , okay .User Interface: So , there must be some cheap standard cover , um maybe white or something ,Marketing: Hmm . Mm .UserInterface: that's could comes with it and you can buy , so we can make extra money .Project Manager: Yeah , but uh you d you mustn't forget that uh our target aim is younger people .Marketing: Oui okay .ProjectManager: Uh , we had decided to uh put uh some flashy fruity colours in it , uh and uh in the survey from uh Milan and Paris uh it uh it came out that uh uh the d the older people are uh more willing to uh to spendmoney on extra features . So I think uh it will be a better idea to have some uh flashy fruity colours as as a standard ,User Interface: Okay . The other way around , you mean .Industrial Designer: {gap} Oh yeah.Project Manager: and for the people who uh really want uh a more sophisticated , more traditional look , they're willing to pay uh that .User Interface: Uh-huh .Project Manager: They want uh {disfmarker}{vocalsound} they want more luxury stuff ,Industrial Designer: Yeah .Project Manager: but they have the money to do it and they want to b to buy that .User Interface: Mm-hmm .Project Manager: So , maybe it's anidea to put that as an extra and not as a standard .User Interface: Okay .Marketing: Yeah .Industrial Designer: Yeah . Yeah , maybe {disfmarker} yeah , perhaps you're right . Uh , I I would I would actually agree withthis sounds logical .User Interface: Okay , yeah .Marketing: An another idea . Uh , maybe we could uh develop a cover uh with wood style .Project Manager: Yeah .Marketing: {vocalsound} They'll please the elder usersas well .Project Manager: Yeah .User Interface: Well yeah , a colour of {disfmarker} a wood style , a white c and uh a couple of h hip uh fruity colours .Project Manager: {vocalsound} Yeah .User Interface: And lea uh ldelivered standard with a fruity colour , but not too not too much .Industrial Designer: Nah . Yeah .Marketing: Yes . Not not too uh {disfmarker} yeah .User Interface: This is banana and mango , not not purple or porange and yellow .Marketing: Yeah , exactly .Project Manager: Yeah . But , the mai I think th uh the standard must be some kind of uh uh attractive flashy colours .Marketing: Yeah . Or blue or {disfmarker}ProjectManager: Not too , but w a little ,User Interface: Ah . Mm-hmm .Project Manager: because that's our aim .Industrial Designer: Yeah ,User Interface: Yeah .Industrial Designer: li like like this like this .Project Manager:Yeah .Industrial Designer: This isn't this isn't too much , is it ?User Interface: Yeah , okay . No . Yeah .Industrial Designer: I fMarketing: {gap} .Project Manager: Well , the buttons don't have to be uh all uh all of{gap}Industrial Designer: Yeah . {vocalsound} The buttons ,Marketing: Well I I I think so .Industrial Designer: I {disfmarker} {vocalsound}Marketing: Yeah , except for the buttons it's {disfmarker} it could be astandard model .Project Manager: yeah . It {disfmarker} Yeah .User Interface: Okay .Industrial Designer: Yeah , uh something like this would be nice .Project Manager: Okay .User Interface: Okay .Industrial Designer:Okay , that's that's it from us .Project Manager: Thank you .Marketing: 'Kay , it's my time now .User Interface: It's my turn .Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}Marketing: {vocalsound}Project Manager: The MarketingExpert .Industrial Designer: Uh-oh .Marketing: {vocalsound}Project Manager: {vocalsound}Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} {vocalsound}Marketing: Okay .User Interface: {vocalsound}Industrial Designer:{vocalsound}Marketing: During the {disfmarker}User Interface: {vocalsound}Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}Marketing: Oh . {vocalsound} During the design uh design life-cycle we uhProject Manager:{vocalsound} Sorry .User Interface: {vocalsound}Marketing: we made lot of requirements and trend analysis and stuff . Um , now is the time to uh evaluate our prototype concept to uh to the past requirements .{vocalsound} So we are going to evaluate the design according to the past user requirements and trends analysis . Um , we're going to do that with a seven point scale . Opening a Word document now . Okay . One{disfmarker} oh , okay , uh I have to expla explain something . We have to uh be consensive about about things . So , it has to be a group uh group decision .Project Manager: Okay ,Marketing: Okay ?Project Manager:so we gon we gonna evaluate theMarketing: Uh {disfmarker} We're going to vote . We {disfmarker}Project Manager: Yeah , the the thing we {gap} saw .Marketing: yeah ? The prototype .Project Manager: Okay , justsaw .Marketing: Yeah . Okay , one . The remote control is designed for people with age below forty .Project Manager: Yeah . Seven ?Marketing: {vocalsound}User Interface: {vocalsound}Marketing: Seven is false.Project Manager: Uh , true . {vocalsound} Sorry .Marketing: Yeah , b one or {disfmarker}Project Manager: Yeah , one I think .Industrial Designer: Why ?Marketing: Most true ?Industrial Designer: Yeah , it's not justuh designed for people under the age of forty . It's also designed for people above forty .User Interface: Mm .Marketing: Yeah ,Project Manager: Yeah .User Interface: Yeah .Marketing: so {disfmarker}IndustrialDesigner: So {disfmarker}Marketing: so a o one is appropriate ?User Interface: No no , a little more in the middle .Marketing: Or , more like a four .User Interface: No , uh three or {disfmarker} yeah .IndustrialDesigner: I have {disfmarker} I've {disfmarker}Marketing: Three .Industrial Designer: Yeah , two or three , because it's not just {disfmarker} uh the qu question is aimed at is it designed for people with age belowforty .Project Manager: Okay .Industrial Designer: But it's also designed for people of age above forty . So ,Marketing: Ah , exactly . Exactly .Industrial Designer: I'll say it's about three .User Interface: Yeah ,ProjectManager: Okay .User Interface: it will be primary appealing to to m minus forty , but also appealing to {disfmarker}Marketing: Three .Project Manager: {vocalsound}Marketing: Yeah . But also for {disfmarker} yeah ,okay . Uh , second . The remote control is beautiful .User Interface: Yeah . {vocalsound}Project Manager: {vocalsound}User Interface: It's {disfmarker} {vocalsound}Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}User Interface:Wow .Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}Marketing: {vocalsound} Yeah , acco according to us , it's one ? Or {disfmarker}Project Manager: {vocalsound} Yeah . {vocalsound}User Interface: {vocalsound} Yeah,Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Yeah , I I think {disfmarker}User Interface: it's the marketing uh angle on television .Industrial Designer: Yeah . {vocalsound} {vocalsound}Marketing: Yeah ,User Interface: Wehave a wonderful {disfmarker}Marketing: p s Of c of course you have to be uh very positive and uh enthusiastic about your own product .User Interface: Yeah .Project Manager: {vocalsound}User Interface: Well , it'salso fancy then .Marketing: Three . Uh , the remote control looks fancy .Project Manager: Yeah .Industrial Designer: Yes .User Interface: Yeah .Marketing: One ?Project Manager: Yep .User Interface: Of course . Wehave a perfect remote .Industrial Designer: Yes .Marketing: Good . Four . The remote control has big , clear channel switching buttons .User Interface: Yes . Yeah yeah , oh they have to agree but {disfmarker}{vocalsound}Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Yeah .Project Manager: Yes .Industrial Designer: Leads to user face , yeah .User Interface: I'm the User Interface uh Expert . {vocalsound}Marketing: Daniel . Uh ,teletext buttons and volume buttons ?User Interface: Um , uh no .Project Manager: No teletext buttons . Teletext is in the menu .User Interface: You you've different menu .Industrial Designer: Yeah , false .Marketing:False ?User Interface: And volume is impoMarketing: And volume ?Project Manager: Volume is true .User Interface: yeah .Marketing: True .Industrial Designer: Uh , hmm .Marketing: Big and clear ?Project Manager:{vocalsound}Industrial Designer: Yeah , the they are big and clear . {gap} .User Interface: Yeah yeah , big and clear .Project Manager: Yeah , big and clear .User Interface: But you could make a teletext button uh six.Marketing: Hey .User Interface: Otherwise , the people who read this uh are gonna think we have no teletext button .Marketing: Hey . Hide .Project Manager: {vocalsound}Industrial Designer: Yeah , but but theteletext button . Yeah , you can ch That's in a menu .Marketing: {vocalsound} It's it's not {disfmarker}Industrial Designer: So , it's w yeah , it {disfmarker} it itMarketing: yeah , it {disfmarker}Industrial Designer: itisn't entirely unclear ,Marketing: JIndustrial Designer: but {disfmarker} So , I wouldn't give it a seven .User Interface: No .Industrial Designer: I would give it a more a five or a six .User Interface: Yeah .Marketing: Five?Industrial Designer: Uh , I don I don't know .Marketing: Okay .Industrial Designer: What do you think , uh Mister Project Manager ?Marketing: Yeah , it's it's {disfmarker} yeah .Project Manager: Oh , okay . Well , Iagree . I was thinking very black and white .Marketing: {vocalsound}Industrial Designer: Hmm .User Interface: Black and red . {vocalsound}Industrial Designer: Yeah .Marketing: {vocalsound}Project Manager:{vocalsound} Thank you J_ . {vocalsound}Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} {vocalsound}User Interface: {vocalsound} Okay , don't forget to save it . Uh {disfmarker}Project Manager: {vocalsound}IndustrialDesigner: {vocalsound}Marketing: Red . Okay . Volume . The remote control is easy to be found .User Interface: Uh well , when we put in fancy colours , yeahProject Manager: {vocalsound} Fruity . {vocalsound}UserInterface: and {disfmarker}Marketing: {vocalsound}Industrial Designer: Yeah , it has these {disfmarker} all these fruity colours and it has a strange shape .User Interface: {vocalsound} Yeah .Industrial Designer: So ,if you so if you have {vocalsound} trouble finding it {disfmarker}User Interface: But , um it it's not making any sound uh ,Marketing: {vocalsound}User Interface: have we deciding ?Marketing: Oh , okay ,UserInterface: So {disfmarker}Marketing: but {disfmarker} If you put uh your normal uh remote control under your bed , or you throw this remote control under your bed , is it better findable ?User Interface: {vocalsound}It'll make a difference . We have the better re {vocalsound} I don't know . Yeah , I think so . My remote control's black .Marketing: A li little bit maybe ?User Interface: A little bit , but {disfmarker} yeah .ProjectManager: Yeah . Well , we p we can do it glow in the dark .Marketing: Four ?User Interface: Uh {disfmarker}Marketing: FiProject Manager: So , if it's in the dark place , you still see it glowing .User Interface:{vocalsound} K yeah .Marketing: I {disfmarker}User Interface: Fo fo yeah fo five is {gap} .Marketing: Ah , I I I think five . It's it's {disfmarker} it doesn't really make a lot of {disfmarker}Industrial Designer: Well ,then uh then I'll go for four .Marketing: Four ?Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Because uh four is between three and uh uh also between between true and false .User Interface: Yeah , okay , you're right .IndustrialDesigner: Uh ,Marketing: {vocalsound} Yes , but five is between four and six . {vocalsound}Project Manager: I think {disfmarker}Industrial Designer: so I'll I'll go for four .Project Manager: Ah , you must see it as uh ,w uh according to uh the the other uh remote controls , there may uh uh be there in your uh T_V_ room , this one will stand out , I think .Industrial Designer: WhaUser Interface: Yeah .Industrial Designer:{vocalsound}Marketing: B_ .User Interface: Yeah . Yeah .Industrial Designer: Yeah , that that's a better question actually .Marketing: Yeah ,Project Manager: Exa I think that that's what it's about .User Interface: Yeah.Marketing: it {disfmarker} it's {disfmarker}User Interface: If your uh fifteen remotes in a drawer , uh you find it , yeah ?Project Manager: If it {disfmarker} if this lying on your couch , you're you're {disfmarker} youthink what's that for kinda orange uh thing .Marketing: Yeah , yeah .Project Manager: So {disfmarker}Marketing: But but the survey under users was that they uh really lost it .Project Manager: Yeah .User Interface:Yeah , that's stupid . {vocalsound}Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}Marketing: Like , no not uh not seeing it , but lost it in the house or something .Project Manager: {vocalsound} Okay .User Interface: Uh , but whenyou lost it you're just not {disfmarker}Marketing: But , okay .Industrial Designer: Well , if i if you see a strange shape lying somewhere , uh then you'd uh recognise it as , whoa , that is strange .Project Manager:


Lynne Neagle AM: Good morning, everyone, and welcome to the Children, Young People and Education committee this morning. We've received apologies for absence from Siân Gwenllian and there is no substitute thismorning. Can I ask if Members have got any declarations of interest they'd like to make, please? No? Okay. Thank you. Item 2 this morning, then, is a further session on our follow-up on our 'Mind over matter' report.I'm very pleased to welcome Carol Shillabeer, who is chief executive of Powys Teaching Health Board, and who manages the Together for Children and Young People programme. Thank you very much for attending, andthank you for the written update that you provided in advance to the committee. We've got a lot of ground that we want to cover this morning, so if it's okay we'll go straight into questions. If I can just start and askyou if you're satisfied with the progress that's been made since the programme was established in 2015.Carol Shillabeer: Thank you very much for that question, Chair. I've got to say 'yes', in many regards. So, the keyfocus of the programme in the early stages was about improving access to specialist child and adolescent mental health services. We developed the windscreen model—or we lifted the windscreen model. Other modelsthat are very similar have been talked about as well, and our big focus was on ensuring that we could make immediate progress around access to specialist CAMHS. It's some years ago now since this committee did theoriginal report, and obviously Healthcare Inspectorate Wales and the Wales Audit Office had done reports in the past, and I think there was a need for a programme that could focus on action. You'll see in the writtenupdate that we covered quite a large number of areas, and so therefore had to make a prioritisation. The prioritisation was at the specialist CAMHS end. We have provided the committee with a red, amber or greenrating of where we feel that we were, and that was just before submission of the evidence. Overall I would say we have made progress. I recognise you recognise that in your 'Mind over matter' report, and that ispleasing. What I would say, though, is that there's a still a lot to be done. Certainly over the last nine months or so, we've seen a real momentum around the whole-school approach work, which we're not actuallyleading now as a programme, although we facilitated the workshop held in September. But that's got a real momentum, and the absolute priority now is the early help and enhanced support part of the work movingforward, and I'm sure we will come on to that in more detail. But we know there is more community workforce in specialist CAMHS, we know we're seeing children in a shorter time frame, and we know we're acceptingmore referrals, so our indicators are telling us we are making progress.Lynne Neagle AM: Thank you. And you referred to the work on the whole-school approach, which is very welcome, and I recognise that theprogramme has been involved in driving that as well. But I'm sure you'll also recognise the emphasis that the committee has placed on this being a whole-system approach to children and young people's mental health,and we feel very strongly that if any of the areas get out of balance, then it will jeopardise the progress in other parts of the programme. Are there any particular areas where you feel you haven't made enough progressthat you'd like to draw the committee's attention to?Carol Shillabeer: This is maybe about what the programme's done, but really around the broader sense as well. I'm going to be very straight and say we should havemade more progress on psychological therapies. I'm disappointed that we haven't. I'm assured that we've got capacity in place now and the drive in place to get the Matrics Cymru framework developed for children andyoung people. I've had discussions with the national psychological therapies committee, who have owned this, and we're working together more on this area. That's not to say for one minute that health boards and localareas haven't been working on psychological therapy service provision and changing the models, but that is an area we should have made, I think, earlier progress on. There's been a general reflection from myself andthe Together for Children and Young People programme board over the phase of the programme. I think we started very strongly; I think we probably had a bit of a lull in the middle, if I'm truthful about that—we had achange of personnel, and we really gathered a momentum over the last year or 18 months, and that has helped to push us from a focus on specialist CAMHS into that whole-school approach. But, if I could just agreewith your comments about the whole system, it has to be the whole system and that's why the real focus now on early help and enhanced support is critical. If I can just say, in case I don't get a chance to say this later,I was delighted to see the focus on youth work yesterday, because what is clear is for that part, the early help and enhanced support, this isn't just about the NHS and it's not just about education, it's about every partof the system, really, which does make it more complex. But I just wanted to say that I think that youth work has perhaps not have the recognition that it's needed and yesterday was a positive step.Lynne Neagle AM:Okay, thank you. We've got some questions now on early help and enhanced support from Janet Finch-Saunders.Janet Finch-Saunders AM: Thank you. Good morning. In terms of local primary mental health supportservices, what is your understanding of the issues leading to some health boards not meeting the Mental Health (Wales) Measure 2010 targets for assessment and therapy for children and young people, and how muchof this is due to an increase in demand?Carol Shillabeer: Yes, thanks very much. So, it's important to say, I think, at the outset, just by way of reminder, that the target, quite rightly, changed for children and youngpeople. The target changed some years ago for adults, so it was only right that there was an equalisation around children. So, the services were working, a couple of years ago, with significant demand and then achange in the standard. I think you're absolutely right; your question alludes to the fact that some health boards are struggling to maintain the full performance around seeing children, particularly within the 28 days. Iwould say—. And we've had some discussion about whether the impact of the mental health Measure has actually drawn perhaps some of the workforce, the staff, who would have been working at that earlier stage inlocal primary mental health, into a bit more of the secondary element, which is why the review being undertaken by the NHS delivery unit into primary care CAMHS is so critical, because, actually, if we don't have—andI believe we don't have—enough capacity in that part of the system, then referrals will move towards the more specialist end of this. So, I think we will have seen, by the evidence submission, that demand hasincreased, not just in Wales but in the UK, and it has increased significantly. We are doing reasonably well at meeting that demand—so, we have more contacts, more staff, shorter access times, so that is a good newsstory. We've not got it completely sustained at this stage, and therefore the focus of the delivery unit's primary care CAMHS report is what more can we do in that part of the system to help to see children and youngpeople or provide consultation and liaison to others and support people at that level of intervention.Janet Finch-Saunders AM: Thank you. I know, from my own experience as a constituency AM, I have families who tellme that they can't get into the early interventions and eventually things just become so—they end up in the more specialist ones and believe that that's—. And I don't like to put it in resource terms, but it's falseeconomy in terms of the impact on the child and the family, but, obviously, in terms of cost as well. Do you find that that's a common theme across Wales?Carol Shillabeer: Yes. I think that the thrust of that isabsolutely right. So, we absolutely need to see children and families at the earliest intervention and that's why this is a whole system, not compartmentalised. I think there have been really good attempts in a couple ofareas of that greater reach out and that earlier help—hot clinics and those sorts of initiatives that help people not to get in a long queue for specialist CAMHS, but can be supported, often by telephone, at that earlierstage. My sense of where we go next, in terms of, you know, you talk about early help and enhanced support for all the 'missing middle', as you referred to it in your report, is to make sure we've got a fully joined-up,multi-agency team approach to that. And I think that will need some resourcing to support that, yet to be fully determined. But yesterday's announcement about youth work, the Government's commitment to primarycare, CAMHS, et cetera—that's all going to be very helpful to prevent those young people having to go into specialist CAMHS. And just a final note on that, if I may—at the beginning of the programme, we had a reportfrom Hafal called 'Making Sense' and there were 10 key asks, if you like, of the system and the service from young people who had experience of the service. They said, 'Please don't medicalise it'—I'm paraphrasingnow, of course—'Please don't medicalise it; please focus on supporting teachers and others who can support us at an earlier stage and then, when we really need help, please ensure that it is there at that morespecialist level.' That's been a bit of a guiding principle for the programme. So, that reflects the questions that you were asking, really.Janet Finch-Saunders AM: Thank you. What are the outcomes of the stakeholderworkshop held last week on early help and enhanced support? And how are the actions going to be taken forward and implemented? And also, given that the Together for Children and Young People programme comesto an end in October of this year, who, in your view, is best placed to forward this work stream, and what will be the biggest challenges? It's a bit of a long question, so, break it up however you like.Carol Shillabeer:That's absolutely fine.Janet Finch-Saunders AM: And what will be the biggest challenges that they will face?Carol Shillabeer: Yes, I think that's helpfully laid out in three stages. So, you're absolutely right, there was ahighly successful workshop last week really focusing on early help and enhanced support. It brought all of the agencies together, which was—and actually had a bit of a waiting list, apparently, for places. So, there wasa lot of demand and a lot of interest in this. In relation to the next steps, there is a planning group reflection in early July, in terms of the outcomes of the workshop or the outputs of the workshop, and there are threecommitments that have been made to this stage. One is that we develop those values-led approaches that will bring multiple agencies together to have that common purpose. The second one is to develop theingredients for successful working in this area, and then, thirdly, to determine or propose priorities and sequencing of next steps. So, that's the next stage of that. I'm pretty sure we'll come on shortly—or hopefully—tothe potential of the regional partnership boards. There is some work that we are doing as a programme with the children's commissioner in terms of working more with the regional partnership boards in taking forwardthis work. So, that will run alongside. But during the summer, then, we will be developing that framework approach, and we will be participating in the Association of Directors of Social Services conference inSeptember, and then a follow-up workshop in October on this matter. On your question of 'Well, what happens after the programme?' we are currently working on legacy arrangements for the programme. I'm prettysecure on the specialist CAMHS element. That will move, most likely, to the CAMHS network, which is part of the NHS mental health network. I actually chair the mental health network and that's one part of that. Thewhole-school approach element is already settled in Government and we've got a connection in to that. The question that's outstanding is where the early help and enhanced support and the neurodevelopmental will go.I am currently in discussions with Welsh Government officials around that. I can be very clear of my own view that there needs to be a confident and clear legacy arrangement for this work. We cannot afford that we'vecome so far for this not now to proceed. I think there's a huge momentum behind this. I don't see there would be any obstacles—I hope—in getting that commitment translated into a strong approach, as we moveforward. So, I'm not in a position to say, 'And the legacy arrangements will be—', but I am in a position to say that I'm having those discussions with Welsh Government officials. They know my view that we've got toput something in place that is strong and secure as we move forward, and I believe that they are supportive of that.Janet Finch-Saunders AM: Thank you.Lynne Neagle AM: Janet, I think those two questions have beentouched on, the remaining questions. We are going to discuss in more detail the legacy arrangements, but if I could just ask on psychological therapies: you referred to the fact that you were a bit disappointed withprogress in this area, and the area hasn't been directly led on by the Together for Children and Young People programme. Do you think that means now that there is more of a threat to progress in this area, because,you know, we've got different compartmentalising of actions, and this is absolutely key, isn't it, really?Carol Shillabeer: Yes. I think there's—. There is some refinement to be done, I think, in making sure theconnections are there. So, I think, as we move to programme end, we'll want to be absolutely assured that there are no strands left hanging, so to speak. I am confident—I mentioned the mental health network boardthat I chair—that we have those strands nailed down, but recognising that the early help and enhanced support and the provision of psychological support is beyond the NHS. So, this will be an area that needs to bevery much seen as a key part of that. My own sense is that—. There's been quite a lot of other developments through the life of the programme. So, in the evidence that I've provided, you'll see the First 1000 days, allthe adverse childhood experiences work, the Cymru Well Wales partnership, et cetera, et cetera. So, there is a bit of what I would call tidying up of the landscape to be done, and this is the ideal opportunity to dothat.Lynne Neagle AM: Okay. Thank you. We've got some questions now on specialist CAMHS—if I can just ask about the impact of the specialist CAMHS framework, and how effective you feel that has been inpromoting a consistent delivery of care for young people.Carol Shillabeer: Thanks very much for that. Without wanting to go back too far in history, I remember coming into this area back in 2014 as I was asked toestablish a CAMHS network. My observation was there wasn't really a strong and well-connected clinical community in this area. When we spin forward five years, I can confidently say that there is a strong andwell-connected clinical community around specialist CAMHS. The programme has helped; the emphasis and the focus of the programme has helped to bring people together with that more common endeavour tounderstand, actually, there is a good case for consistency in the main, with local variation. There has been a case for much greater learning between organisations. If I just give you an example—you'll know that thecommunity intensive service teams were put in place in 2015-ish. Some areas have them, but a lot of areas didn't. We do have inconsistency in that, but the consistent part is there is a service now right the way acrossWales for more intensive support to children and young people and their families in their own homes, which helps to prevent admissions and then, where there are admissions, helps to support people to be at home.They're all called slightly different things. So, I might have referred in my papers to CITT, CATT, COT and CITE. So, they've all got slightly different names and they've got slightly different opening hours. The key thrustof this is that there is a backbone, if you like, of a consistent approach with that local variation. We have to check. So, things like frameworks for improvement—there is a coming together of the clinicians and theprofessionals to agree what that framework for improvement is. That then gets implemented, with some local variation. So, I think the process of moving in that way has been extremely helpful. There will be somevariation. We want some variation, to some extent, as places try new things and evaluate new things. So, if I just refer to the previous question that I had, and I talked about hot clinics and different ways of reachingout; that's been tried in one area, been evaluated—let's see the spread of that. So, you'll know my view on internet counselling, for example; I feel that is quite a strong offer for children—not necessarily in thespecialist end. If that works in one area, why aren't we rolling that out to other areas? So, I think the framework for improvement has provided a vehicle for those clinicians and professionals to come together. It's in astronger place—a much stronger place—than it was five years ago.Lynne Neagle AM: Okay, thank you. You've referred to there being some inconsistencies in terms of crisis care, but are you able to assure thecommittee that all young people are now getting at least a consistent service, especially in terms of interventions in the instances of young people self-harming. Wherever you live in Wales, is that help there for younow?Carol Shillabeer: Well, in your work to produce the 'Mind over matter' report, I clearly listened to the views from the police and the recommendations in relation to the police. We've taken that as a further piece ofwork under the specialist CAMHS umbrella, to truly understand what the experiences of the police are and what some of the root issues may be in relation to that. For example, is it that because the CIT, CAT, COT,CITE—the community intensive service—closes at 10 o'clock in a certain area, that actually it's after that that the network of support isn't as strong, and, if that is the case, what are we going to do about that? There'scertainly potential in working more regionally or even working between adults' and children's in terms of the crisis resolution services that work beyond those hours. So, we are taking an extra look at this, because Icould not be 100 per cent confident that, throughout the 24-hour period, we've got this fully settled. I continue to hear some stories from the police that they are picking up young people and feeling that they've not gotthat solid place to go, and we're following those through.Lynne Neagle AM: Okay, thank you. We've got some questions now from Hefin David on neurodevelopmental services.Hefin David AM: I think, Chair, I shouldhave declared an interest here, as my daughter has been diagnosed with autism and is currently going through the process of receiving neurodevelopmental speech and language support particularly. We're seeing anincrease in neurodevelopmental referrals, and that will increase further in the future. Can you give us an explanation as to why this demand is growing and how we're going to meet capacity to deliver and for support forthose children?Carol Shillabeer: Thank you. They're very big questions in terms of 'why'. I'm not sure that anyone really knows why, if I'm honest, although there is a lot of academic research going on. What we doknow is that we are starting to see the scale of those referrals coming through. So, in the information provided, I refer to the NHS digital prevalence report in England, which indicates that about 5.5 per cent of two tofour-year-olds have a mental disorder. Now, that sounds a bit shocking when we say that, but that's in the international classification scaling, and, of that, certainly, 2.5 per cent is around autism. I can just testify, inreal life, that demand is absolutely growing. So, if I just take my own health board for a moment, we usually have about 75 referrals per year. Last year we had 300. So, that has felt very difficult to manage. If I canjust give you a sense of what we've done so far and then what I think is next, I want to recognise the work of Dr Cath Norton and the steering group that's been established on neurodevelopmental issues under theprogramme. They had a standing start. They've done a lot of very, very good work. We now have seven teams in place across Wales. We now have a national pathway. We now have a community-of-practice-typeenvironment, and we're really getting into this. Good progress has been made. More people have been seen. More people have been assessed. So, we have made progress. But I've got a long list of considerations that I


Project Manager: Okay Right {vocalsound} Um well this is the kick-off meeting for our our project . Um {vocalsound} and um this is just what we're gonna be doing over the next twenty five minutes . Um so first of all ,just to kind of make sure that we all know each other ,Marketing: Mm-hmm .Project Manager: I'm Laura and I'm the project manager . {vocalsound} Do you want to introduce yourself again ?Marketing: Great.Industrial Designer: Hi , I'm David and I'm supposed to be an industrial designer .Project Manager: Okay .Marketing: And I'm Andrew and I'm uh our marketingUser Interface: Um I'm Craig and I'm User Interface.Marketing: expert .Project Manager: Great . Okay . {vocalsound} Um so we're designing a new remote control and um {disfmarker} Oh I have to record who's here actually . So that's David , Andrew and Craig , isn't it? And you all arrived on time . Um yeah so des uh {vocalsound} design a new remote control . Um , as you can see it's supposed to be original , trendy and user friendly . Um so that's kind of our our brief , as it were .Um and so there are three different stages to the design . Um I'm not really sure what what you guys have already received um in your emails . What did you get ?Industrial Designer: Um , I just got the projectannouncement about what the project is {vocalsound} .Project Manager: Mm-hmm .Industrial Designer: Designing a remote control .Marketing: Mm-hmm .Industrial Designer: That's about it , didn't get anything else.Marketing: Mm-hmm . Yeah , that's that's it .Project Manager: Is that what everybody got ?Industrial Designer: Did you get the same thing ?User Interface: Yeah .Project Manager: Okay .Marketing: Yeah .ProjectManager: Um . So we're gonna have like individual work and then a meeting about it . And repeat that process three times . Um and at this point we get try out the whiteboard over there . Um . {vocalsound} So uh youget to draw your favourite animal and sum up your favourite characteristics of it . So who would like to go first ?Marketing: I will go . That's fine .Project Manager: Very good . {vocalsound}Marketing: Alright . So{disfmarker} {vocalsound} {vocalsound} This one here , right ?Project Manager: Mm-hmm .Marketing: Okay . Very nice . Alright . My favourite animal is like {disfmarker} {vocalsound} {vocalsound} A beagle .ProjectManager: {vocalsound}Marketing: Um charac favourite characteristics of it ? Is that right ?Project Manager: Yeah . Yeah .Marketing: Uh , right , well basically um high priority for any animal for me is that they be willingto take a lot of physical affection from their family . And , yeah that they have lots of personality and uh be fit and in robust good health .Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}Marketing: So this is blue . Blue beagle . Myfamily's beagle .Project Manager: Right .Marketing: {vocalsound}Project Manager: Lovely . {vocalsound}User Interface: {gap} Well , my favourite animal would be a monkey .Project Manager: {vocalsound}IndustrialDesigner: {vocalsound}User Interface: {vocalsound} Then they're small cute and furry , and uh when planet of the apes becomes real , {vocalsound} I'm gonna be up there with them .Marketing:{vocalsound}Industrial Designer: Cool .Project Manager: Right .User Interface: {vocalsound} {vocalsound}Industrial Designer: There's too much gear . {vocalsound}Project Manager: You can take as long over this asyou like , because we haven't got an awful lot to discuss .Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}Project Manager: Ok oh we do we doUser Interface: {vocalsound}Project Manager: Don't feel like you're in a rush , anyway.Industrial Designer: Okay .Marketing: I coulda told you a whole lot more about beagles .Project Manager: Ach {gap} why not {disfmarker}Marketing: Boy , let me tell you . {vocalsound}Project Manager: We mighthave to get you up again then .User Interface: {vocalsound}Project Manager: I don't know what mine is . I'm gonna have to think on the spot now .Marketing: Impressionist .Project Manager: {vocalsound}UserInterface: {vocalsound}Industrial Designer: Can't draw . {vocalsound}User Interface: {vocalsound}Industrial Designer: Um .Project Manager: Is that a whale ? {vocalsound}Industrial Designer: Yeah . Um , wellanyway , I don't know , it's just the first animal I can think off the top of my head . Um . Yes . Big reason is 'cause I'm allergic to most animals . Allergic to animal fur ,Project Manager: Ah .Industrial Designer: so umfish was a natural choice . Um , yeah , and I kind of like whales . They come in and go {vocalsound} eat everything in sight . {vocalsound}User Interface: {vocalsound}Marketing: {vocalsound}Industrial Designer: Andthey're quite harmless and mild and interesting .Marketing: {vocalsound} Alright . Mm .Project Manager: Okay . God , I still don't know what I'm gonna write about . Um .Marketing: Superb sketch , by the way.Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Tail's a bit big , I think . {vocalsound}Project Manager: I was gonna choose a dog as well .Marketing: {vocalsound}Project Manager: But I'll just draw a different kind of dog.Marketing: Yep .Project Manager: M my favourite animal is my own dog at home . {vocalsound} Um {disfmarker} That doesn't really look like him , actually . He looks more like a pig , actually . Ah well .Marketing: Isee a dog in there .Project Manager: Do you ?User Interface: {vocalsound}Project Manager: Oh that's very good of you .Marketing: Yep . {vocalsound} Now I see a rooster .Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}ProjectManager: {vocalsound}User Interface: {vocalsound}Project Manager: Uh .Marketing: What kind is it ?Project Manager: Um he's a mixture of uh various things . Um and what do I like about him , um {disfmarker}That's just to suggest that his tail wags .Marketing: {vocalsound}Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}Project Manager: Um he's very friendly and cheery and always pleased to see you , and very kind of affectionate andum {vocalsound} uh and he's quite quite wee as well so you know he can {disfmarker} doesn't take up too much space .Marketing: {vocalsound}Project Manager: Um and uh {disfmarker} And he does a funny thingwhere he chases his tail as well ,Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}Project Manager: which is quite amusing , so {disfmarker}Marketing: Is he aware that th it's his own cha tail he's chasing ?Project Manager: It is . Ithink it is . He only does it after he's had his dinnerMarketing: {vocalsound}Project Manager: and um he'll just all of a sudden just get up and start chasing his tail 'round the living room .Industrial Designer:{vocalsound} It's an after dinner dog then .Marketing: Hmm .Project Manager: Yeah , so uh {disfmarker}Marketing: Probably when he was little he got lots of attention for doing it and has forever been conditioned.Project Manager: Yeah , maybe . Maybe . {vocalsound} Right , um where did you find this ?Marketing: {vocalsound}Project Manager: Just down here ? Yeah .Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}Project Manager: Okay .{vocalsound} Um what are we doing next ? Uh um . Okay , uh we now need to discuss the project finance . Um so according to the brief um we're gonna be selling this remote control for twenty five Euro , um and we'reaiming to make fifty million Euro . Um so we're gonna be selling this on an international scale . And uh we don't want it to cost any more than uh twelve fifty Euros , so fifty percent of the selling price .Marketing: 'Kay .Um , can we just go over that again ?Project Manager: Sure .Marketing: Uh , so bas at twel Alright , yeah . Okay . So cost {disfmarker} like production cost is twelve fifty ,Project Manager: All together .Marketing: butselling price is {disfmarker} is that wholesale or retail ? Like on the shelf .Project Manager: Um I dunno . I imagine {disfmarker} That's a good question .Marketing: Our sale our sale anyway .Project Manager: I imagineit probably is our sale actuallyMarketing: Yeah , okay okay .Project Manager: because it's probably up to the the um the retailer to uh sell it for whatever price they want . Um .Marketing: Okay . Mm-hmm .ProjectManager: But I {disfmarker} I don't know ,Marketing: Alright .Project Manager: I mean do you think the fact that it's going to be sold internationally will have a bearing on how we design it at all ?Marketing: Yes .{vocalsound}Project Manager: Think it will ? Um .Marketing: Mm-hmm . Mm-hmm .Project Manager: {vocalsound} Hmm .Marketing: Well right away I'm wondering if there's um th th uh , like with D_V_D_ players , ifthere are zones .Project Manager: Oh yeah , regions and stuff , yeah .Marketing: Um f frequencies or somethingProject Manager: Yeah . Okay .Marketing: um as well as uh characters , um different uh keypad styles ands symbols .Industrial Designer: Hmm .Project Manager: Yeah . Well for a remote control , do you think that will be {disfmarker}Marketing: Um .Project Manager: I suppose it's depends on how complicated our remotecontrol is .Marketing: I don't know . Yeah .Industrial Designer: It does make sense from maybe the design point of view 'cause you have more complicated characters like European languages , then you need morebuttons .Project Manager: Yeah , yeah .Marketing: Yeah .Industrial Designer: So , possibly .Marketing: Yeah .Project Manager: Okay .Marketing: And then a and then al the other thing international is on top of the price. I'm thinking the price might might appeal to a certain market in one region , whereas in another it'll be different , so {disfmarker}Project Manager: What , just like in terms of like the wealth of the country ?Marketing:Just a chara just a characteristic of the {disfmarker}Project Manager: Like how much money people have to spend on things like ?Marketing: Just {disfmarker} Or just like , basic product podi positioning , the twentyfive Euro remote control might be a big hit in London , might not be such a big hit in Greece , who knows ,Project Manager: Aye , I see what you mean , yeah .Marketing: something like that , yeah .Project Manager:Marketing . Good marketing thoughts .Marketing: {vocalsound} Yep .Project Manager: Oh gosh , I should be writing all this down . Um .Marketing: Right away I'm making some kind of assumptions about what whatinformation we're given here ,Project Manager: Mm .Marketing: thinking , 'kay trendy probably means something other than just basic ,Project Manager: Yeah .Marketing: something other than just standard . Um soI'm wondering right away , is selling twenty five Euros , is that sort of the {disfmarker} thi is this gonna to be like the premium product kinda thing or {disfmarker}Project Manager: Yeah , yeah . Like how much does ,you know , a remote control cost .Marketing: Uh-huh .Project Manager: Well twenty five Euro , I mean that's um that's about like eighteen pounds or something , isn't it ? Or no , is it as much as that ?Marketing:Mm-hmm .Project Manager: Sixteen seventeen eighteen pounds .Marketing: Yep . Yeah , I'd say so , yeah .Project Manager: Um , I dunno , I've never bought a remote control , so I don't know how how good a remotecontrol that would get you . Um .Marketing: No . Yeah , yeah . {vocalsound}Project Manager: But yeah , I suppose it has to look kind of cool and gimmicky .Marketing: Mm-hmm .Project Manager: Um right , okay . Letme just scoot on ahead here . Okay . Um well d Does anybody have anything to add to uh to the finance issue at all ? ThinMarketing: Do we have any other background information on like how that compares tootherProject Manager: No , actually . That would be useful , though ,Marketing: other {vocalsound} {disfmarker}Project Manager: wouldn't it , if you knew like what your money would get you now .Marketing: Yeah.Industrial Designer: Hmm .Project Manager: Mm-hmm .Marketing: Mm-hmm . Yeah , interesting thing about discussing um production of a remote control for me is that l as you point out , I just don't think of remotecontrols as somethin something people consciously assess in their purchasing habits .Project Manager: Yeah , yeah .Marketing: It's just like getting shoelaces with shoes or something .Project Manager: Oh . Fiveminutes to end of meeting .Marketing: It just comes along .Project Manager: Oh , okay . We're a bit behind .Marketing: Do you know what I mean ?User Interface: {vocalsound} Yeah .Industrial Designer: Yeah.Marketing: Like so sort of like how do you I I mean one one way of looking at it would be , well the people producing television sets , maybe they have to buy remote controls . Or another way is maybe people whohave T_V_ sets are really fed up with their remote control and they really want a better one or something .User Interface: I know um {disfmarker} My parents went out and bought um remote controls because um theygot fed up of having four or five different remote controls for each things the house .Marketing: But {disfmarker} Right . Right .User Interface: So um for them it was just how many devices control .Marketing: Okay so{disfmarker} Right , so in function one of the priorities might be to combine as many uses {disfmarker}Project Manager: Yeah . Right , so do you think that should be like a main design aim of our remote control d youknow ,Marketing: I think so .Project Manager: do your your satellite and your regular telly and your V_C_R_ and everything ?Marketing: Yeah , yeah . Yeah . Well like um , maybe what we could use is a sort of like aexample of a successful other piece technology is palm palm pilots . They're gone from being just like little sort of scribble boards to cameras , M_P_ three players , telephones ,Project Manager: Mm-hmm .Marketing:everything , agenda . So , like , I wonder if we might add something new to the to the remote control market ,Project Manager: {vocalsound} Yeah .Marketing: such as the lighting in your house , or um{disfmarker}Project Manager: Or even like , you know , notes about um what you wanna watch . Like you might put in there oh I want to watch such and such and look aMarketing: Yeah , yeah .Project Manager: Ohthat's a good idea . So extra functionalities .Marketing: An Yeah . Like , p personally for me , at home I've I've combined the um the audio video of my television set and my D_V_D_ player and my C_D_ player . Sothey w all work actually function together but I have different remote controls for each of them .Project Manager: Mm-hmm .Marketing: So it's sort of ironic that that then they're in there um you know , the sound andeverything it's just one system .Project Manager: Hmm .Marketing: But each one's got its own little part .Project Manager: Um okay , uh I'd wel we're gonna have to wrap up pretty quickly in the next couple of minutes. Um I'll just check we've nothing else . Okay . Um so anything else anybody wants to add about what they don't like about remote controls they've used , what they would really like to be part of this new one at all?Industrial Designer: And you keep losing them .Project Manager: You keep losing them .Marketing: Mm .Project Manager: Okay .Industrial Designer: Finding them is really a pain , you know .Marketing: Mm . Mm.Industrial Designer: I mean it's usually quite small , or when you want it right , it slipped behind the couchMarketing: Mm-hmm . Mm-hmm .Industrial Designer: or it's kicked under the table .Project Manager: Yeah.Marketing: Yeah .Project Manager: W You get those ones where you can , if you like , whistle or make a really high pitched noise they beep .Marketing: Yeah .Industrial Designer: You know .Marketing: That's just reallygood id Yep .Project Manager: There {disfmarker} I mean is that something we'd want to include , do you think ?Marketing: Uh , {vocalsound}Project Manager: Dunno .Marketing: sure . {vocalsound}Project Manager:Okay maybe . {vocalsound}Marketing: I remember when the first remote control my my family had was on a cable . Actually had a cable between it and the T_V_Project Manager: {vocalsound}Marketing: and big likebuttons that sort of like , like on a blender or something .Project Manager: My goodness .Marketing: And um , you know , when I think about what they are now , it's better , but actually it's still kind of , I dunno , like amassive junky thing on the table .Project Manager: Still feels quite primitive .Marketing: Maybe we could think about how , could be more , you know , streamlined . SProject Manager: Maybe like a touch screen orsomething ?Marketing: Something like that , yeah .Project Manager: Okay .Marketing: Or whatever would be technologically reasonable .Project Manager: Uh-huh , okay . Well I guess that's up to our industrial designer.Marketing: 'Cause it could b it could it could be that f it could be that functionally that doesn't make it any better , but that just the appeal of of not having {disfmarker}Project Manager: It looks better .Marketing: Youknow , these days there's a r pe things in people's homes are becoming more and more like chic , you know .Project Manager: Yeah .Marketing: Um , nicer materialsProject Manager: Okay .Marketing: and mightbeProject Manager: Okay .Marketing: be worth exploring anyway .User Interface: Uh .Project Manager: Right , well um so just to wrap up the next meeting's gonna be in thirty minutes . So that's about um about ten totwelve by my watch . Um so inbetween now and then , um as the industrial designer , you're gonna be working on you know the actual working design of itIndustrial Designer: Yep .Project Manager: so y you know whatyou're doing there . Um for user interface , technical functions , I guess that's you know like what we've been talking about , what it'll actually do . Um and uh marketing executive , you'll be just thinking about what itactually {disfmarker} what , you know , what requirements it has to has to fulfil and you'll all get instructions emailed to you , I guess .Marketing: Okay .Project Manager: Um .Marketing: {vocalsound}Project Manager:Yeah , so it's th the functional design stage is next , I guess . {vocalsound} And uh and that's the end of the meeting . So I got that little message a lot sooner than I thought I would , so {disfmarker}Marketing: Um .{vocalsound} {vocalsound} Before we wrap up , just to make sure we're all on the same page here ,Project Manager: Mm-hmm .Marketing: um , do we {disfmarker} We were given sort of an example of a coffeemachine or something ,Project Manager: Uh-huh , yeah .Industrial Designer: Mm-hmm .Marketing: right ? Well , um are we at ma right now on the assumption that our television remote control may have featureswhich go beyond the television ? Or are we keeping sort of like a a design commitment to television features ?Project Manager: Th Okay , well just very quicklyMarketing: I I don't know .Project Manager: 'cause this{disfmarker} we're supposed to finish now . Um I guess that's up to us ,Marketing: Yep . Yeah , sure .Project Manager: I mean you probably want some kind of unique selling point of it , so um , you know{disfmarker}Marketing: Okay .Industrial Designer: I think one factor would be production cost .Marketing: Okay , yeah .Industrial Designer: Because there's a cap there ,Project Manager: Yeah .Industrial Designer: soum depends on how much you can cram into that price . Um .Marketing: Okay .Project Manager: Mm-hmm .Marketing: Okay .Industrial Designer: I think that that's the main factor .Project Manager: Yeah . Okay.Marketing: Okay .Project Manager: Right , okay , we'll that's that's the end of the meeting , then . UmMarketing: Alright . {vocalsound}Project Manager: So , uhMarketing: {vocalsound}Project Manager: thank you allfor coming . {vocalsound}Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Cool .Marketing: {vocalsound}