Grad A: OK . We seem to be recording .Professor G: Alright !Grad A: So , sorry about not {disfmarker}Professor G: We 're not crashing .PhD D: Number four .Grad A: not pre - doing everything . The lunch went a littlelater than I was expecting , Chuck .PhD E: Hmm ?Professor G: OK .PhD B: Chuck was telling too many jokes , or something ?Grad A: Yep . Pretty much .PhD E: Yeah .Professor G: OK . {vocalsound} Does anybody havean agenda ?Grad A: No .Postdoc F: Well , I 'm {disfmarker} I sent a couple of items . They 're {disfmarker} they 're sort of practical .Professor G: I thought {pause} somebody had .Postdoc F: I don't know if you 're{disfmarker}Professor G: Yeah , that 's right .Postdoc F: if {disfmarker} if that 's too practical for what we 're {pause} focused on .Grad A: I mean , we don't want anything too practical .Professor G: Yeah , we onlywant th useless things .Grad A: Yeah , that would be {disfmarker}Professor G: Yeah . No , why don't we talk about practical things ?Postdoc F: OK .Professor G: Sure .Postdoc F: Well , um , I can {pause} give you anupdate on the {pause} transcription effort .Professor G: Great .Postdoc F: Uh , maybe {nonvocalsound} raise the issue of microphone , uh , um procedures with reference to the {pause} cleanliness of the recordings.Professor G: OK , transcription , uh , microphone issues {disfmarker}Postdoc F: And then maybe {nonvocalsound} ask , th uh , these guys . The {disfmarker} we have great {disfmarker} great , uh , p steps forward interms of the nonspeech - speech pre - segmenting of the signal .Professor G: OK .Grad A: Well , we have steps forward .PhD C: Yeah .Postdoc F: Well , it 's a {disfmarker} it 's a big improvement .PhD C: I would preferthis .Professor G: Yes . Yeah , well . OK . Uh {disfmarker}PhD D: We talk about the {disfmarker} {vocalsound} the results ofProfessor G: You have some {disfmarker} Yeah .Grad A: I have a little bit of IRAMstuffProfessor G: OK .PhD D: use {disfmarker}Grad A: but {pause} I 'm not sure if that 's of general interest or not .Professor G: Uh , bigram ?Grad A: IRAM .PhD D: IRAM .Professor G: IRAM .Grad A: IRAM , bigram,Professor G: Well , m maybe .PhD D: Bi - Bigram .Grad A: you know .Professor G: Yeah , let 's {disfmarker} let 's see where we are at three - thirty .PhD B: Hmm .Professor G: Um {disfmarker}PhD B: Since , uh{disfmarker} since I have to leave as usual at three - thirty , can we do the interesting stuff first ?Postdoc F: I beg your pardon ?Professor G: Well {disfmarker}PhD C: Which is {disfmarker} ?Grad A: What 's theinteresting stuff ?Postdoc F: I beg your pardon ?PhD D: Yeah .Professor G: Yeah . Th - now you get to tell us what 's the interesting part .PhD E: Please specify .Professor G: But {disfmarker}PhD B: Well , uh , I guessthe work that 's been {pause} done on segmentation would be most {disfmarker}PhD C: Yeah .Postdoc F: I think that would be a good thing to start with .PhD B: Yeah .Professor G: OK . Um , and , um , {vocalsound}the other thing , uh , which I 'll just say very briefly that maybe relates to that a little bit , which is that , um , uh , one of the suggestions that came up in a brief meeting I had the other day when I was in Spain with ,uh , Manolo Pardo and {vocalsound} Javier , uh , Ferreiros , who was {pause} here before , was , um , why not start with what they had before but add in the non - silence boundaries . So , in what Javier did beforewhen they were doing , um {disfmarker} h he was looking for , uh , speaker change {pause} points .PhD D: Mm - hmm .Professor G: Um . As a simplification , he originally did this only using {pause} silence as , uh , a{pause} putative , uh , speaker change point .PhD C: Yeah .Professor G: And , uh , he did not , say , look at points where you were changing broad sp uh , phonetic class , for instance . And for Broadcast News , thatwas fine . Here obviously it 's not .PhD D: Yeah .Professor G: And , um , so one of the things that they were pushing in d in discussing with me is , um , w why are you spending so much time , uh , on the , uh , featureissue , uh , when perhaps if you sort of deal with what you were using beforePhD D: Uh - huh .Professor G: and then just broadened it a bit , instead of just ta using silence as putative change point also {disfmarker}?PhD D: Nnn , yeah .Professor G: So then you 've got {disfmarker} you already have the super - structure with Gaussians and H - you know , simple H M Ms and so forth . And you {disfmarker} you might {disfmarker}So there was a {disfmarker} there was a little bit of a {disfmarker} a {disfmarker} a {disfmarker} a difference of opinion because I {disfmarker} I thought that it was {disfmarker} it 's interesting to look at whatfeatures are useful .PhD D: Yeah .Professor G: But , uh , on the other hand I saw that the {disfmarker} they had a good point that , uh , if we had something that worked for many cases before , maybe starting fromthere a little bit {disfmarker} Because ultimately we 're gonna end up {vocalsound} with some s su kind of structure like that ,PhD D: Yeah .Professor G: where you have some kind of simple HMM and you 're testingthe hypothesis that , {vocalsound} uh , there is a change .PhD D: Yeah .Professor G: So {disfmarker} so anyway , I just {disfmarker} reporting that .PhD D: OK .Professor G: But , uh , uh {disfmarker} So . Yeah , whydon't we do the speech - nonspeech discussion ?Postdoc F: Yeah . Do {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I hear {disfmarker} you {disfmarker} you didn't {disfmarker}PhD C: Speech - nonspeech ? OK .Postdoc F: Uh - huh .Yeah .PhD C: Um , so , uh , what we basically did so far was using the mixed file to {disfmarker} to detect s speech or nonspeech {pause} portions in that .Professor G: Mm - hmm .PhD C: And what I did so far is I justused our old Munich system , which is an HMM - ba based system with Gaussian mixtures for s speech and nonspeech . And it was a system which used only one Gaussian for silence and one Gaussian for speech . Andnow I added , uh , multi - mixture possibility for {disfmarker} {vocalsound} for speech and nonspeech .Professor G: Mm - hmm . Mm - hmm .PhD C: And I did some training on {disfmarker} on one dialogue , whichwas transcribed by {disfmarker} Yeah . We {disfmarker} we did a nons s speech - nonspeech transcription .PhD D: Jose .PhD C: Adam , Dave , and I , we did , for that dialogue and I trained it on that . And I did somepre - segmentations for {disfmarker} for Jane . And I 'm not sure how good they are or what {disfmarker} what the transcribers say . They {disfmarker} they can use it or {disfmarker} ?Postdoc F: Uh , they{disfmarker} they think it 's a terrific improvement . And , um , it real it just makes a {disfmarker} a world of difference .Professor G: Hmm .Postdoc F: And , um , y you also did some something in addition which was ,um , for those in which there {nonvocalsound} was , uh , quiet speakers in the mix .PhD C: Yeah . Uh , yeah . That {disfmarker} that was one {disfmarker} one {disfmarker} one thing , uh , why I added more mixturesfor {disfmarker} for the speech . So I saw that there were loud {disfmarker} loudly speaking speakers and quietly speaking speakers .Professor G: Mm - hmm .PhD C: And so I did two mixtures , one for the loudspeakers and one for the quiet speakers .Grad A: And did you hand - label who was loud and who was quiet , or did you just {disfmarker} ?PhD C: I did that for {disfmarker} for five minutes of one dialogueGrad A:Right .PhD C: and that was enough to {disfmarker} to train the system .PhD B: W What {disfmarker} ?PhD D: Yeah .PhD C: And so it {disfmarker} it adapts , uh , on {disfmarker} while running . So .PhD B: What kindof , uh , front - end processing did you do ?PhD C: Hopefully .PhD D: OK .PhD C: It 's just our {disfmarker} our old Munich , uh , loudness - based spectrum on mel scale twenty {disfmarker} twenty critical bands andthen loudness .PhD B: Mm - hmm .PhD C: And four additional features , which is energy , loudness , modified loudness , and zero crossing rate . So it 's twenty - four {disfmarker} twenty - four features .PhD B: Mmm.Professor G: Mm - hmm .Postdoc F: And you also provided me with several different versions ,PhD C: Yeah .Postdoc F: which I compared .PhD C: Yeah .Postdoc F: And so you change {nonvocalsound} parameters .What {disfmarker} do you wanna say something about the parameters {nonvocalsound} that you change ?PhD C: Yeah . You can specify {vocalsound} the minimum length of speech or {disfmarker} and silenceportions which you want . And so I did some {disfmarker} some modifications in those parameters , basically changing the minimum {disfmarker} minimum {pause} length for s for silence to have , er to have , um{disfmarker} yeah {disfmarker} to have more or less , uh , silence portions in inserted . So .Grad A: Right . So this would work well for , uh , pauses and utterance boundaries and things like that .PhD D: Yeah .PhD C:Yeah . Yeah .Grad A: But for overlap I imagine that doesn't work at all ,PhD C: Yeah .PhD D: Yeah .Grad A: that you 'll have plenty of s sections that are {disfmarker}PhD C: Yeah .PhD D: Yeah .PhD C: That 's it . Yeah.Postdoc F: Mm - hmm , mm - hmm .PhD D: Yeah .Grad A: But {disfmarker}Postdoc F: That 's true . But {nonvocalsound} it {disfmarker} it saves so much time {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} the {nonvocalsound}transcribersProfessor G: Um {disfmarker}Grad A: Yep .Postdoc F: just enormous , enormous savings . Fantastic .Professor G: That 's great . Um , just qu one quickly , uh , still on the features . So {vocalsound} youhave these twenty - four features .PhD C: Yeah .Professor G: Uh , a lot of them are spectral features . Is there a {disfmarker} a transformation , uh , like principal components transformation or something ?PhD C: No.Grad A: Yeah . It was IS two .PhD C: No . W w we {disfmarker} originally we did thatProfessor G: Just {disfmarker}PhD C: but we saw , uh , when we used it , uh , f for our close - talking microphone , which{disfmarker} yeah , for our {disfmarker} for our recognizer in Munich {disfmarker} we saw that w it 's {disfmarker} it 's not {disfmarker} it 's not so necessary . It {disfmarker} it works as well f with {disfmarker}with {disfmarker} without , uh , a LDA or something .Professor G: OK . OK . No , I was j {pause} curious .PhD C: Yeah .Postdoc F: Mm - hmm .Professor G: Yeah , I don't think it 's a big deal for this application ,PhD C:Yeah .PhD D: Right .Professor G: but {disfmarker} but {disfmarker} Yeah , it 's a {disfmarker}Postdoc F: Mm - hmm . OK . But then there 's another thing that also Thilo 's involved with , which is , um {disfmarker} OK, and {disfmarker} and also Da - Dave Gelbart . So there 's this {disfmarker} this problem of {disfmarker} and w and {disfmarker} so we had this meeting . Th - the {nonvocalsound} {disfmarker} also Adam , beforethe {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} before you went away . Uh we , um {disfmarker} regarding the representation {nonvocalsound} of overlaps , because at present , {nonvocalsound} {vocalsound} um , because{nonvocalsound} of the limitations of {vocalsound} th the interface we 're using , overlaps are , uh , not being {nonvocalsound} encoded by {nonvocalsound} the transcribers in as complete {nonvocalsound} and , uh ,detailed a way as it might be , and as might be desired {disfmarker} I think would be desired in the corpus ultimately .Professor G: Mm - hmm .Postdoc F: So we don't have start and end points {nonvocalsound} ateach point where there 's an overlap . We just have the {disfmarker} the {nonvocalsound} overlaps {nonvocalsound} encoded in a simple bin . Well , OK . So {nonvocalsound} @ @ the limits of the {nonvocalsound}over of {disfmarker} of the interface are {vocalsound} such that we were {disfmarker} at this meeting we were entertaining how we might either expand {nonvocalsound} the {disfmarker} the {vocalsound} interfaceor find other tools which already {pause} do what would be useful . Because what would ultimately be , um , ideal in my {disfmarker} my view and I think {disfmarker} I mean , I had the sense that it was consensus ,is that , um , a thorough - going musical score notation would be {nonvocalsound} the best way to go . Because {nonvocalsound} you can have multiple channels , there 's a single time - line , it 's very clear , flexible ,and all those nice things .Professor G: Mm - hmm .Postdoc F: OK . So , um , um , I spoke {disfmarker} I had a meeting with Dave Gelbart on {disfmarker} on {disfmarker} and he had , uh , excellent ideas on how{pause} the interface could be {pause} modified to {disfmarker} to do this kind of representation . But , um , he {disfmarker} in the meantime you were checking into the existence of already , um , existing interfaceswhich might already have these properties . So , do you wanna say something about that ?PhD C: Yes . Um , I {vocalsound} talked with , uh , Munich guys from {disfmarker} from Ludwi - Ludwig Maximilians University, who do a lot of transcribing and transliterations .Professor G: Mm - hmm .PhD C: And they basically said they have {disfmarker} they have , uh , a tool they developed {pause} themselves and they can't give away ,uh , f it 's too error - prone , and had {disfmarker} it 's not supported , a a a and {disfmarker}Professor G: Yeah .PhD C: But , um , Susanne Bur - Burger , who is at se CMU , he wa who was formally at {disfmarker} inMunich and w and is now at {disfmarker} with CMU , she said she has something which she uses to do eight channels , uh , trans transliterations , eight channels simultaneously ,Professor G: Excuse me .PhD C: but it 'srunning under Windows .Postdoc F: Under Windows .PhD C: So I 'm not sure if {disfmarker} if {disfmarker} if we can use it .Postdoc F: Mm - hmm .PhD C: She said she would give it to us .Postdoc F: Mm - hmm .PhDC: It wouldn't be a problem . And I 've got some {disfmarker} some kind of manual {pause} down in my office .Grad A: Well , maybe we should get it and if it 's good enough we 'll arrange Windows machines to beavailable .PhD C: Yeah .Postdoc F: Mm - hmm . We could {disfmarker} uh , potentially {nonvocalsound} so .Grad A: So .Postdoc F: I also wanted to be sure {disfmarker} I mean , I 've {disfmarker} I 've seen the{disfmarker} this {disfmarker} this is called Praat , PRAAT , {nonvocalsound} which I guess means spee speech in Dutch or something .Grad A: Yep .PhD C: Yeah , but then I 'm not sure {pause} that 's the right thingfor us .Postdoc F: But {disfmarker} In terms {nonvocalsound} of it being {nonvocalsound} Windows {nonvocalsound} versus {disfmarker}Professor G: Yeah .Grad A: No , no . Praat isn't {disfmarker} Praat 's multi -platform .Postdoc F: But I 'm just wondering , is {disfmarker} ?PhD C: No . No , Praat {disfmarker} Yeah . Yeah .Postdoc F: Oh ! I see .PhD C: Yeah .Postdoc F: Oh , I see . So Praat may not be {disfmarker}PhD C:That 's not Praat . It 's called " trans transedit " {pause} I think .Postdoc F: It 's a different one .PhD C: The {disfmarker} the , uh {disfmarker} the tool from {disfmarker} from Susanne .Postdoc F: I see . Oh , I see .OK . OK . Alright .Professor G: The other thing , uh , to keep in mind , uh {disfmarker} I mean , we 've been very concerned to get all this rolling so that we would actually have data ,Postdoc F: Mmm , yeah .ProfessorG: but , um , I think our outside sponsor is actually gonna kick inPostdoc F: Mm - hmm .Professor G: and ultimately that path will be smoothed out . So I don't know if we have a long - term need to do lots and lots oftranscribing . I think we had a very quick need to get something out and we 'd like to be able to do some later because just it 's inter it 's interesting . But as far a you know , uh , with {disfmarker} with any luck we 'llbe able to wind down the larger project .Grad A: Oh .PhD B: But you sGrad A: What our decision was is that {pause} we 'll go ahead with what we have with a not very fine time scale on the overlaps .PhD C: Yeah.Professor G: Right . Yeah .Grad A: And {disfmarker} and do what we can later {pause} to clean that up if we need to .Postdoc F: Mm - hmm .Professor G: Right .Postdoc F: And {disfmarker} and I was just thinkingthat , um , {vocalsound} if it were possible to bring that in , like , {vocalsound} you know , this week , then {nonvocalsound} when they 're encoding the overlaps {nonvocalsound} it would be nice for them to be ableto specify when {disfmarker} you know , the start points and end points of overlaps .Professor G: Uh - huh .Postdoc F: uh Th - they 're {nonvocalsound} making really quick progress .Professor G: Yeah . That 's great.Postdoc F: And , um , so my {disfmarker} my goal was {disfmarker} w m my charge was to get eleven hours by the end of the month . And it 'll be {disfmarker} I 'm {disfmarker} I 'm {disfmarker} I 'm clear that we'll be able to do that .Professor G: That 's great .Grad A: And did you , uh , forward Morgan Brian 's {pause} thing ?Professor G: Yeah .Postdoc F: I sent {nonvocalsound} it to , um {disfmarker} who did I send that to ?I sent it to a list and I thought {nonvocalsound} I sent it to {nonvocalsound} the {nonvocalsound} {disfmarker} e to the local list .PhD E: Meeting Recorder .Grad A: Oh , you did ? OK . So you probably did get that.Postdoc F: You saw that ? So Brian did tell {nonvocalsound} me that {nonvocalsound} in fact what you said , that , {nonvocalsound} uh {disfmarker} that {nonvocalsound} our {disfmarker} that they are {pause}making progress and that he 's going {disfmarker} that {nonvocalsound} they 're {nonvocalsound} going {disfmarker} he 's gonna check the f the output of the first transcription and {disfmarker} and{disfmarker}Professor G: I mean , basically it 's {disfmarker} it 's all the difference in the world . I mean , basically he 's {disfmarker} he 's on it now .Grad A: Yeah .Postdoc F: Oh , that 's {disfmarker} this is a newdevelopment .Professor G: So {disfmarker} so {disfmarker} so this is {disfmarker} so i it 'll happen .Postdoc F: OK . Super . Super . OK . Great .Professor G: Yeah . I mean , basically it 's just saying that one of our{disfmarker} one of our best people is on it ,Postdoc F: Yeah .Professor G: you know , who just doesn't happen to be here anymore . Someone else pays him . So {disfmarker}PhD B: But about the need fortranscription ,Postdoc F: Isn't that great ?PhD B: I mean , don't we {disfmarker} didn't we previously {vocalsound} decide that the {pause} IBM {pause} transcripts would have to be {pause} checked anyway andpossibly augmented ?Professor G: So . {vocalsound} Yeah .Postdoc F: Yes . That 's true .PhD B: So , I think having a good tool is worth something no matter what .Postdoc F: Mm - hmm .Professor G: Yeah . S OK .That 's {disfmarker} that 's a good point .Grad A: Yeah , and Dave Gelbart did volunteer ,Postdoc F: Good .Grad A: and since he 's not here , I 'll repeat it {disfmarker} to at least modify Transcriber , which , if we don'thave something else that works , I think that 's a pretty good way of going .PhD C: Mmm .Postdoc F: Mm - hmm .Grad A: And we discussed on some methods to do it . My approach originally , and I 've already hackedon it a little bit {disfmarker} it was too slow because I was trying to display all the waveforms . But he pointed out that you don't really have to . I think that 's a good point .Postdoc F: Mm - hmm .Professor G: Mm -hmm .Grad A: That if you just display the mix waveform and then have a user interface for editing the different channels , that 's perfectly sufficient .Professor G: Hmm .Postdoc F: Yeah , exactly . And just keep those{nonvocalsound} things separate . And {disfmarker} and , um , Dan Ellis 's hack already allows them to be {nonvocalsound} able to display {vocalsound} different {nonvocalsound} waveforms to clarify overlaps andthings ,Grad A: No . They can only display one ,Postdoc F: so that 's already {disfmarker}Grad A: but they can listen to different ones .Postdoc F: Oh , yes , but {disfmarker} Well , {vocalsound} uh , yes , but{nonvocalsound} what I mean is {pause} that , uh , from the transcriber 's {nonvocalsound} perspective , uh , those {nonvocalsound} two functions are separate . And Dan Ellis 's hack handles the , {vocalsound} um, choice {nonvocalsound} {disfmarker} the ability to choose different waveforms {vocalsound} from moment to moment .Grad A: But only to listen to , not to look at .PhD C: Yeah .Postdoc F: Um {disfmarker}Grad A:The waveform you 're looking at doesn't change .PhD C: Yeah .Postdoc F: That 's true .Grad A: Yeah .Postdoc F: Yeah , but {nonvocalsound} that 's {disfmarker} that 's OK , cuz they 're {disfmarker} they 're , youknow , they 're focused on the ear anyway .Grad A: Right .Postdoc F: And then {disfmarker} and thenProfessor G: Hmm .Postdoc F: the hack to {vocalsound} preserve the overlaps {nonvocalsound} better would beone which creates different output files for each channel ,Grad A: Right .Postdoc F: which then {nonvocalsound} would also serve Liz 's request {pause} of having , you know , a single channel , separable , uh , cleanly ,


Marketing: {vocalsound} That went well , thank you .Project Manager: That's great .Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} 'Kay .Marketing: Perfect .Project Manager: Alright , let me just PowerPoint this up . {vocalsound}{vocalsound} {vocalsound} Right so um this meeting will be about the conceptual design , don't ask me s precisely what conceptual design is , it's just something important that we need to do . Um , think of it{disfmarker} 's kind of uh turning the abstract into slightly more concrete . In this meeting ideally we'll come to some final decisions on what we're gonna do for the prototype . Um . Right so um , apologies for the lastmeeting , it was brought to my attention that I did not make the roles clear enough , um , so I will attempt to do so more accurately in this particular meeting . Um , fair enough , thanks for the input , 's always good .Um . So , basically all we're gonna do is have some presentations again much like last time , um , and gonna go through you , uh whoever wants to go first is f fine by me um and we'll collate what we know about umwhat we discussed in the last meeting , possible directions . {vocalsound} And then we'll make some more decisions on um basic uh firm up our idea on how we want this remote control to look and work . So , perfect .So , without th further ado , whoever wants to go first is free to .Industrial Designer: I'll go first .Project Manager: Alright Nathan ,Marketing: Go ahead .Project Manager: take it away . It is Nathan right ? I'm not callingyou the wrong name over and over again ?Industrial Designer: No Nathan's fine .Marketing: {vocalsound}Project Manager: {vocalsound} Good .Industrial Designer: It's either Nathan or participant two .ProjectManager: {vocalsound}Marketing: {vocalsound}User Interface: {vocalsound} Mister participant two that is . {vocalsound}Industrial Designer: Uh .Project Manager: {vocalsound}Marketing: Nice .Industrial Designer:Okay . Um ,Project Manager: Nice .Industrial Designer: basically what I'm gonna have to talk to you about today is um component design and it's been brought to my attention that we may be somewhat limited as towhat we can do because of what our manufacturer offers ,Project Manager: Mm .Industrial Designer: so {disfmarker} Basically what I'm gonna be doing is talking to you about that . Um , components of a remotecontrol , okay . We've already kind of gone over this but we're gonna have to get into more detail and probably have to reach some conclusions some time soon . Energy source , um , our manufacturer offers a varietyof energy sources , your standard battery , solar cells . Our manufacturer didn't say anything about lithium so we might have to look {disfmarker} if we do go that route , we might have to look elsewhere . Um , andalso there's a kinetic energy possibility . Basically , it's like a um {disfmarker} the idea of moving the remote would create enough energy to keep it running . So that's one possibility but I don't know whether thatwould be powerful enough to illuminate a touch screen .Project Manager: Hmm .Industrial Designer: So we'll have to look into that .Marketing: Mm .Industrial Designer: Um , the case , we have a few options , plastic ,rubber or wood . Um and then as far as the way it's shaped , we can do standard boring flat , which we probably don't wanna do , curved or very sexy double curved .Project Manager: What kind of th thickness are welooking at ?Industrial Designer: Um , I imagine that we could specify . Um , I don't see any reason to go outside of the convention of three or four millimetres . Yeah .Project Manager: Okay , brilliant .IndustrialDesigner: Um , the buttons , there are multiple scroll buttons available from our manufacturer , but to use those we'd have to use more chips , um and that would cost us more . And if we do go with the rubber doubledcurved case um we'll have to use rubber push buttons because the other buttons aren't compatible with that .Project Manager: Hmm .Industrial Designer: Um and just a little note there ,Marketing: Right .IndustrialDesigner: touch screen equals many chips which equals many Euro .Project Manager: {vocalsound}Marketing: {vocalsound} Right . Nice .Industrial Designer: Um , one thing that I noticed was that most remotesoperate on a infrare on the infrared part of the spectrum . So you notice when you push a button on a remote you can't see anything coming out of it but in fact there is light coming out of the remote and you know thetelevision can detect that . And if you were to record {disfmarker} if you were to make a video recording you could actually see the light . Uh one thing that I thought might be interesting was to use part {disfmarker}use visible light coming out of the remote , just kind of as a fun gimmick .Project Manager: Hmm .Industrial Designer: So you could actually see something coming out of the remote when you pushed it .Marketing:Interesting .Industrial Designer: Course it'd have to be a part of the spectrum that wouldn't damage the human eye or anything like that .Project Manager: {vocalsound} M Maybe {disfmarker}User Interface:{vocalsound}Marketing: Mm . Good call .Project Manager: is there an option that we can have that off or on so a person can select like {disfmarker}Industrial Designer: Yeah .Marketing: Choose it .Industrial Designer:I am sure that we could do that . Um , of course {disfmarker}Project Manager: Yeah I like the idea , it's a good idea .Industrial Designer: Yeah , just as a fun gimmick .Project Manager: Yeah .Industrial Designer: Justto set us apart a little bit . Um , and then on to the circuit board that we're gonna use , also known as the chip . Uh , we really don't have any way around the T_A_ one one eight three five .Project Manager:{vocalsound}User Interface: {vocalsound}Industrial Designer: Um findings , okay , we're very limited by what our current manufacturers can offer , um and my question to all of you is , should we look to othermanufacturies or should we just make do with what we have available ?User Interface: Interesting question .Industrial Designer: 'S a bit of a challenge question .Project Manager: Mm .User Interface: Yes .Marketing:Well I'd say shop around but with our time constraints , is that really a feasible option ?Project Manager: Mm .Industrial Designer: Right , that's my concern too . Um , if we do go the lithium battery route then we'llhave to go outside our current manufacturer . My personal preference is {disfmarker} I'll just throw my cards on the table , uh I think we should probably go the solar battery route , just to kinda keep with theenvironmentally friendly theme that we have going on . Uh , I like the idea of the visible light signalling , that's something to set us apart and uh I was thinking about {disfmarker} I was thinking of ways that we couldproduce the remote in a variety of different case materials to suit different tastes . So we're not so confined by one style and say some {disfmarker} you know , say our {disfmarker} the one {disfmarker}Marketing:Right .Industrial Designer: if we just go with one and it doesn't go over well then we're in a bad situation .Project Manager: Mm .Marketing: Right .Project Manager: Can we do marketing piloting too ? Try to see whatkind {disfmarker} before we launch {disfmarker} can we see how they're received ?Marketing: Um {disfmarker} It's an option , uh but actually there's {disfmarker} I've got some research already on like what we'relooking at and trends in casing right nowProject Manager: Okay . Okay .Marketing: which actually might even come into play beforehand ,Project Manager: Okay , perfect .Marketing: it may help us decide for now .Temporarily anyway .Project Manager: Great , thank you very much Nathan .Industrial Designer: Oh yeah , you're welcome .Project Manager: That's perfect , so I guess that makes sense for you to take it from here.Marketing: {vocalsound} I guess so , 'cause I found some interesting things . {vocalsound}Project Manager: {vocalsound}Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}User Interface: {vocalsound} Did you ?{vocalsound}Marketing: You waiting for me ? {vocalsound}Project Manager: Fascinating , compelling even .Marketing: I know , what a teaser ain't it . Um . {vocalsound} Right . SoUser Interface:{vocalsound}Marketing: current market trends . Screen . Um , basically I was looking at what's going on in the remote control market right now and what's going on in other design fields , to see sort of what's what'strendy , what's new , what's happening . Um , remote control right now {disfmarker} basically everybody says they want newer , fancier , more exciting {disfmarker} they're sick of this boring , normal , functional , um{disfmarker} that we need innovative design options and there needs to be an easy user interface . Um the challenge is that current trends right now , across the board in fashion , in furniture , in technology , is a veryorganic fruit and vegetable kind of thing .User Interface: {vocalsound}Project Manager: {vocalsound}User Interface: {vocalsound}Project Manager: {vocalsound}User Interface: {vocalsound}Industrial Designer:{vocalsound}Marketing: Now I'm not saying we should have , you know , tomato shaped remote controls or anything , but I think it is possible maybe to use um natural colours , like if wood is an option , that wholeorganic , sleek , clean ,Industrial Designer: Mm .Marketing: v line thing may be something we can look into . Different skin options , or if we can't afford this touch plate thing , or touch face screen interface um , maybehaving the b images be specific , like you could choose your menu bullets to beProject Manager: {vocalsound} Tomatoes . {vocalsound}Marketing: a different shapeIndustrial Designer: {vocalsound}User Interface:{vocalsound}Marketing: or {vocalsound} okay , not the example I would choose , but you know what I mean to t sort of {disfmarker} and th apparently the feel of the next couple of years is spongy ,Project Manager:{vocalsound}Industrial Designer: Mm . {vocalsound}User Interface: {vocalsound} I like it , I like it . {vocalsound}Marketing: uh not something I I've come up with a {gap} though if we can get around to gettingpiloting , I thought maybe a casing option like uh not like a skin , but like a holder almost if you could do like um , leather options or wood options or something {disfmarker}Industrial Designer: Hmm . I should havementioned this um . As far as the rubber that we can use {disfmarker} we can use a rubber as part of the case ,Marketing: Mm-hmm .Industrial Designer: it has a consistency of those stress balls .User Interface: Yes.Marketing: Mm . {vocalsound}Project Manager: Slick , slick .User Interface: Fabulous .Marketing: Might be an interesting way to go . Um , yeah so something to sit on for now . So overall I think we should stick withwhat we're finding , everyone's looking for easy to use , technologically innovative and this fancy new {disfmarker} I think perhaps the double curve thing and maybe this rubber option is our best way to go for rightnow .Industrial Designer: Mm .Marketing: {vocalsound} Um .Project Manager: Interface , oh the interface graphics for the um {disfmarker}Marketing: {vocalsound} Yeah . Um . Well I d but then if the touch screenthing isn't gonna work out for us that's really a non-issue .Project Manager: Yeah .Industrial Designer: I like the idea of of rubber too because it's {disfmarker} tends to be associated with being durable , something thatyou can drop and it doesn't matter .Project Manager: Mm .Industrial Designer: 'Cause so many {disfmarker}Marketing: True .Industrial Designer: you go to so many houses these days and you see broken remotecontrols .Marketing: Very true . Very true .Project Manager: Yeah , it's like , yep {vocalsound}Industrial Designer: Taped with duck tape and what have you ,Marketing: Very much so {vocalsound} . UmIndustrialDesigner: you wouldn't have that problem if you used rubber .Project Manager: it's ubiquitous isn't it ?User Interface: We can have a duck tape casing .Project Manager: {vocalsound}Industrial Designer:{vocalsound}Marketing: We could .User Interface: {vocalsound}Marketing: I think that goes against the whole fancy something , a new line ,Project Manager: {vocalsound}User Interface: {vocalsound} It could gowith the granola crowd .Marketing: but worth a shot .Project Manager: {vocalsound}Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}User Interface: {vocalsound}Marketing: Ah , it could be , it could be ,Project Manager:{vocalsound} Great ,Marketing: um . Yeah that's what I know .Project Manager: thanks for that Sarah .Marketing: No problem .Project Manager: Ron ?User Interface: Phew . Computer's adjusting . One moment please. So interme interface concept by your faithful user interface designer .Project Manager: {vocalsound}Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}Marketing: {vocalsound}User Interface: So yur user interface , guys , is basicallyaspects of a computer system that we can see or hear , or otherwise uh perceive . Uh , commands and mechanisms , that basically user uses to control the operator operating system . Here's a d series of differentremote controlsIndustrial Designer: {vocalsound}User Interface: that are out on the market today . I think we're definitely trying to get away from this kind of a look .Project Manager: YeahUser Interface: Um , so thefollowing are a bunch of different uh interface uh concepts . Uh voice recognition , we we um actually have some new uh information from our research design team but uh I'll get to that in a moment . Um , so currentvoice recognition starts up to about eighty speech samples , um and basically you record your own verbal labels c and connect them to the remote control . Now our design team , research team , has been able to uhset up a system in which uh you can teach the remote control voice c recognition system to respond to um {disfmarker} with standard responses . Like you could say good morning uh remote control and it'll say in asexy female voice , Good morning Joe . Um .Project Manager: {vocalsound}Marketing: {vocalsound}Project Manager: {vocalsound}Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}User Interface: {vocalsound} In fact we alreadyhave this for a coffee maker lineMarketing: {vocalsound} Mm .Project Manager: {vocalsound} Lot of single people on the um on the re on the remote control research teamUser Interface: {vocalsound} On the remotecontrolIndustrial Designer: {vocalsound} {vocalsound}Project Manager: at the {gap} {vocalsound}User Interface: right .Marketing: Yeah . Very true , very true .User Interface: Um , another concept is what uh Applehas come up with , the spinning wheel with uh L_C_ display like on the uh iPodProject Manager: Mm .User Interface: which I am sure most of you know about .Marketing: Mm .User Interface: Um and then we have thescroll button with integrated push-button , kind of like a modern {gap} a bit bulky , a bit crazy ,Project Manager: Mm .Industrial Designer: Mm .User Interface: I don't think that's we're necessarily going for .IndustrialDesigner: No .User Interface: And uh some special components , uh ideas like uh blocking , having the ability to block channels from your {disfmarker} for your children um and uh dedicated buttons for for commonlyused uh channels and even uh ideas like secured or hidden programming but uh I {disfmarker} again if we go with touch screen I don't think that's a big issue . Um and uh this is kind of the uh the big daddy of remotecontrols here .Project Manager: {vocalsound}Marketing: Hmm .Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}Marketing: {vocalsound}User Interface: Uh the jumbo universal remote control is almost impossible to misplace or lose.Project Manager: {vocalsound} {vocalsound} Yeah , I can see . {vocalsound}User Interface: Um , again probably not what we're going forMarketing: {vocalsound}User Interface: so I {disfmarker} I mean my ideashere and kind of where I think we're heading is something slightly larger than a regular iPod uh with a hard cla c uh plastic casingMarketing: Okay .User Interface: although I think some of the suggestions we've comeup with are definitely uh very good ideas . Uh changeable casings uh {disfmarker} our design team was possibly talking about including one extra face plate with the package to kind of set the idea that you can changeit and you can try changing itMarketing: Mm , right .User Interface: and kind of get used to thinking about maybe buying another one which can add value to our uh bottom line . Uh touch screen interface , um possiblyhaving go-to buttons being uh stuck into the system so those don't move away from the screen , uh , the important ones like power , volume and jump between channels . Um , and of course our voice commandsystem which I've talked a little bit about alreadyProject Manager: Mm .User Interface: and uh the use of recognisable colours and shapes to aid recognition of the features um that are around so red for power , umarrows for different volume ups and downs and channels ups and downs and what not .Marketing: Mm .User Interface: And uh perhaps even adding in some stupid little jokes with the voice recognition idea like perhmm for instance my toastie maker that I got from my bankMarketing: {vocalsound}User Interface: has jokes when it's ready .Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}Marketing: {vocalsound} Nice .Project Manager: Great.User Interface: And uh that is about it .Project Manager: Great , wonderful Ron , cool . Lot of good ideas , good facts to have .Marketing: Mm .Project Manager: That's what they need , it's like a little dongle it juststicks up this further so you don't have to stand up every time , just connect it , my kingdom .Industrial Designer: Yeah . {vocalsound}User Interface: {vocalsound}Marketing: Mm .Project Manager: Right so , good toknow all that stuff , thanks guys , um . {vocalsound} Now we kind of have to come to some decisions , um , I figure we can just go down the line and all three of us can have a chat about it . Um . Based on what Nathanpresented as far as the um {vocalsound} various costs and benefits um I think , I dunno , what do you guys think about the touch screen at this point ?Marketing: I think it's our most marketable feature just becauseit's so new and it's something that is showing up in other places .Project Manager: 'Kay . 'Kay .Marketing: But can we really afford it 'cause it looks like they would be , that would be a really main cost source thenProjectManager: Mm-hmm .Marketing: right ?Industrial Designer: My estimate is that in order to incorporate touch screen technology it's gonna cost us upwards of seventeen fifty Euro per remote ,Project Manager: Toproduce each one .User Interface: {vocalsound}Marketing: Per ?Industrial Designer: yeah that's just an estimate though .Marketing: Piece .User Interface: Oh you guys are always the dampers on these projects.Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}Marketing: {vocalsound} I knowProject Manager: Mm .User Interface: You industrial designers . {vocalsound}Industrial Designer: I know .Project Manager: {vocalsound} Hmm.Industrial Designer: It's fun . {vocalsound}Marketing: And our goal was to be under twelve fifty or we have to be under twelve fifty ?Project Manager: Well .Marketing: Do we remember ?Industrial Designer: I thoughtthere was some flexibility with that .Marketing: Okay .Project Manager: There is , it's just , it is a question of {disfmarker} and how much ca o does that mean we're gonna have to increase the price to make money.Marketing: Can we justify it ?Project Manager: Um , from twelve fifty if we d wanna get our fift uh hundred per cent profit margin {vocalsound} um that would mean selling it from twenty five . If you multiplyseventeen fifty by two that's thirty five .Marketing: Right .Project Manager: So {disfmarker}User Interface: Where do you guys come up with these numbers ?Industrial Designer: That's just off the top of my head,Project Manager: {vocalsound} {vocalsound} From the board ,Industrial Designer: it is pending further emails . {vocalsound}User Interface: {vocalsound}Marketing: {vocalsound} {vocalsound}User Interface:{vocalsound} {vocalsound}Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Right .Project Manager: um , well {vocalsound} {disfmarker}Marketing: Though I think that's what people would pay for ,User Interface:{vocalsound}Marketing: I mean if you're gonna pay for an expensive high class remote , you're gonna expect it to do something {disfmarker}Project Manager: That's true , I mean {disfmarker}Industrial Designer: It isthe new {disfmarker} it would be in a class of its own .Marketing: Yeah .Project Manager: {vocalsound} And that's {disfmarker} to be fair the um the per cent of the market {disfmarker} we're not going for mass anyyou know , mass sales anyway , we're gonna make {disfmarker} I mean we we're not talking about selling eight zillion of these things , we just couldn't , not for twenty-five Euros ,Marketing: Right .Project Manager: so


Professor A: OK .Grad B: OK we 're on and we seem to be working .PhD C: Yes .Professor A: OK .Grad B: We didn't crash {disfmarker} we 're not crashing anymorePhD C: One , two , three , four , fGrad B: and it reallybothers me .Professor A: Yeah ?PhD C: No crashing .PhD G: I do . I crashed when I started this morning .Grad B: You crashed {disfmarker} crashed this morning ? I did not crash this morning .PhD C: Yeah ?ProfessorA: Oh ! Well maybe it 's just , you know , how many t u u u u how many times you crash in a day .PhD G: Really ? Yeah . Maybe , yeah .Professor A: First time {disfmarker} first time in the day , you know .PhD G: Ormaybe it 's once you 've {pause} done enough meetings {comment} it won't crash on you anymore .PhD E: Yeah .PhD C: No ?Postdoc F: Yeah .PhD G: It 's a matter of experience .PhD E: Yeah .Professor A: Yeah.Postdoc F: Self - learning , yeah .Professor A: That 's {disfmarker} that 's great .PhD G: Yeah .Professor A: Uh .PhD C: Yeah .Professor A: Do we have an agenda ? Liz {disfmarker} Liz and Andreas can't sh can't{disfmarker} uh , can't come .Grad B: I do .Professor A: So , they won't be here .Grad B: I have agenda and it 's all me .PhD G: Did {disfmarker}Grad B: Cuz no one sent me anything else .PhD G: Did they send , uh ,the messages to you about the meeting today ?Grad B: I have no idea but I just got it a few minutes ago .PhD G: Oh .Grad B: Right when you were in my office it arrived .PhD G: Oh . OK , cuz I checked my mail . Ididn't have anything .Grad B: So , does anyone have any a agenda items other than me ? I actually have one more also which is to talk about the digits .Professor A: Uh , right , so {disfmarker} so I {disfmarker} I wasjust gonna talk briefly about the NSF ITR .PhD C: Mm - hmm . Yeah .Grad B: Oh , great .Professor A: Uh , and then , you have {disfmarker}Postdoc F: Can wProfessor A: I mean , I won't say much , but {disfmarker}{comment} uh , but then , uh , you said {disfmarker} wanna talk about digits ?Grad B: I have a short thing about digits and then uh I wanna talk a little bit about naming conventions , although it 's unclear whetherthis is the right place to talk about it . So maybe just talk about it very briefly and take the details to the people who {disfmarker} for whom it 's relevant .Professor A: Right .PhD C: Yeah .Postdoc F: I could always saysomething about transcription . I 've been {disfmarker} {vocalsound} but {disfmarker} but {disfmarker} uh , well {disfmarker}Professor A: Well if we {disfmarker} Yeah , we shouldn't add things in just to add thingsin . I 'm actually pretty busy today ,Postdoc F: Yeah .Professor A: so if we can {disfmarker} {comment} {vocalsound} we {disfmarker}Postdoc F: Yeah , yeah , yeah .Professor A: a short meeting would be fine .PostdocF: This does sound like we 're doing fine , yeah . That won't do .Grad B: So the only thing I wanna say about digits is , we are pretty much done with the first test set . There are probably forms here and there that aremarked as having been read that weren't really read . So I won't really know until I go through all the transcriber forms and extract out pieces that are in error . So I wa Uh . Two things . The first is what should we doabout digits that were misread ? My opinion is , um , we should just throw them out completely , and have them read again by someone else . You know , the grouping is completely random ,PhD C: Uh - huh .Grad B:so it {disfmarker} it 's perfectly fine to put a {disfmarker} a group together again of errors and have them re - read , just to finish out the test set .Postdoc F: Oh ! By {disfmarker} throw them out completely ?Grad B:Um , the other thing you could do is change the transcript to match what they really said . So those are {disfmarker} those are the two options .PhD C: Yeah .Postdoc F: Mm - hmm .Professor A: But there 's oftenthings where people do false starts . I know I 've done it , where I say {disfmarker} say a {disfmarker}Grad B: What the transcribers did with that is if they did a correction , and they eventually did read the right string, {comment} you extract the right string .PhD G: Oh , you 're talking about where they completely read the wrong string and didn't correct it ?PhD E: Yeah .Grad B: Yeah . And didn't notice . Which happens in a fewplaces .PhD E: Yeah .PhD G: Ah .PhD C: Yeah .Grad B: So {disfmarker} so {disfmarker}Postdoc F: Well , and s and you 're talking string - wise , you 're not talking about the entire page ?Grad B: Correct .PhD E: Yeah.Postdoc F: I get it .Grad B: And so the {disfmarker} the two options are change the transcript to match what they really said , but then {disfmarker} but then the transcript isn't the Aurora test set anymore . I don'tthink that really matters because the conditions are so different . And that would be a little easier .PhD G: Well how many are {disfmarker} how {disfmarker} how often does that happen ?Grad B: Mmm , five or sixtimes .PhD G: Oh , so it 's not very much .Grad B: No , it 's not much at all .PhD G: Seems like we should just change the transcriptsPhD E: Yeah .Grad B: OK .PhD G: to match .Professor A: Yeah , it 's five or six timesout of {pause} thousands ?PhD C: Yeah .Grad B: Four thousand .Professor A: Four thousand ?PhD C: Four thous Ah ! Four thousand .PhD G: Yeah , it 's {disfmarker}Professor A: Yeah , I would , uh , {vocalsound} takdo the easy way ,PhD G: Yeah .Professor A: yeah .Grad B: OK .PhD C: Yeah .Professor A: It {disfmarker} it 's kinda nice {disfmarker} I mean , wh who knows what studies people will be doing on {disfmarker} onspeaker - dependent thingsPhD C: Mmm .Professor A: and so I think having {disfmarker} having it all {disfmarker}PhD C: Yeah .Professor A: the speakers who we had is {disfmarker} is at least interesting .PhD G: Soyou {disfmarker} um , how many digits have been transcribed now ?Grad B: Four thousand lines . And each line is between one and about ten digits .PhD G: Four thousand lines ?Grad B: I didn't {disfmarker} I didn'tcompute the average . I think the average was around four or five .Professor A: So that 's a couple hours of {disfmarker} of , uh , speech , probably .PhD G: Wow .Grad B: Yep . Yep .Professor A: Which is a yeahreasonable {disfmarker} reasonable test set .PhD C: Mm - hmm .PhD G: Mm - hmm .Grad B: And , Jane , I do have a set of forms which I think you have copies of somewhere .Postdoc F: Mm - hmm . Yeah , true .GradB: Oh you do ? Oh OK , good , good .Postdoc F: Mm - hmm . Mm - hmm .Grad B: Yeah , I was just wond I thought I had {disfmarker} had all of them back from you . And then the other thing is that , uh , the forms infront of us here that we 're gonna read later , were suggested by LizPostdoc F: No , not yet .Grad B: because she wanted to elicit some different prosodics from digits . And so , uh , I just wanted people to , take a quicklook at the instructionsPhD C: Mm - hmm . PhD E: Eight eight two two two nine .Grad B: and the way it wa worked and see if it makes sense and if anyone has any comments on it .Professor A: I see . And the decisionhere , uh , was to continue with uh the words rather than the {disfmarker} the numerics .Grad B: Uh , yes , although we could switch it back . The problem was O and zero . Although we could switch it back and tellthem always to say " zero " or always to say " O " .Postdoc F: Oh {disfmarker}Professor A: Or neither .PhD C: Yeah .Professor A: But it 's just two thing {disfmarker} ways that you can say it .Grad B: Mm - hmm.Professor A: Right ?Grad B: Sure .Postdoc F: Oh .Professor A: Um {disfmarker} um ,PhD E: Yeah .Professor A: that 's the only thought I have because if you t start talking about these , you know u tr She 's trying toget at natural groupings , but it {disfmarker} there 's {disfmarker} there 's nothing natural about reading numbers this way .Grad B: Right .Professor A: I mean if you saw a telephone number you would never see itthis way .Grad B: The {disfmarker} the problem also is she did want to stick with digits . I mean I 'm speaking for her since she 's not here .Professor A: Yeah .Grad B: But , um , the other problem we were thinkingabout is if you just put the numerals , {comment} they might say forty - three instead of four three .PhD E: Yeah .PhD G: Mmm .PhD C: Yeah .PhD E: Yeah .PhD C: Yeah .Postdoc F: Well , if there 's space , though ,between them . I mean , you can {disfmarker} With {disfmarker} when you space them out they don't look like , uh , forty - three anymore .PhD E: Yeah .Grad B: Well , she and I were talking about it ,Professor A:Yeah .Grad B: and she felt that it 's very , very natural to do that sort of chunking .Professor A: She 's right . It 's {disfmarker} it {disfmarker} it 's a different problem . I mean it 's a {disfmarker} it 's a {disfmarker} it's an interesting problem {disfmarker} I mean , we 've done stuff with numbers before , and yeah sometimes people {disfmarker} If you say s " three nine eight one " sometimes people will say " thirty - nine eighty -one " or " three hundred {disfmarker} three hundred eighty - nine one " , or {disfmarker} I don't think they 'd say that ,PhD C: Yeah .Professor A: but {disfmarker} but thGrad B: Not very frequentlyProfessor A: no{disfmarker}Grad B: but , {vocalsound} they certainly could .Professor A: But {disfmarker} Yeah . Uh , th thirty - eight ninety - one is probably how they 'd do it .Grad B: So . I mean , this is something that Liz and Ispoke aboutProfessor A: But {disfmarker} I see .Grad B: and , since this was something that Liz asked for specifically , I think we need to defer to her .Professor A: Mm - hmm .PhD C: Yeah .Professor A: OK . Well , we're probably gonna be collecting meetings for a while and if we decide we still wanna do some digits later we might be able to do some different ver different versions ,Grad B: Do something different ,Professor A: butthis is the next suggestion ,Grad B: yeah .Professor A: so . OK . OK , so uh e l I guess , let me , uh , get my {disfmarker} my short thing out about the NSF . I sent this {disfmarker} actually this is maybe a little sidething . Um , I {disfmarker} I sent to what I thought we had , uh , in some previous mail , as the right joint thing to send to , which was " M {disfmarker} MTG RCDR hyphen joint " .Grad B: It was . Joint . Yep .ProfessorA: But then I got some sort of funny mail saying that the moderator was going to {disfmarker}Grad B: It 's {disfmarker} That 's because they set the one up at UW {disfmarker}Postdoc F: Grad B: that 's not on ourside , that 's on the U - dub {comment} side .Professor A: Oh .Grad B: And so U - UW set it up as a moderated list .Postdoc F: Yeah .Professor A: Oh , OK .Grad B: And , I have no idea whether it actually ever goes toanyone so you might just wanna mail to MariProfessor A: No {disfmarker} no , th I got {disfmarker} I got , uh , little excited notes from Mari and Jeff and so on ,Grad B: and {disfmarker}Professor A: so it 's{disfmarker}Grad B: OK , good .Professor A: Yeah .Grad B: So the moderator actually did repost it .Professor A: Yeah .Grad B: Cuz I had sent one earlier {disfmarker} Actually the same thing happened to me{disfmarker} I had sent one earlier . The message says , " You 'll be informed " and then I was never informed but I got replies from people indicating that they had gotten it , so .Professor A: Right .Grad B: It 's just toprevent spam .Professor A: I see . Yeah so O {disfmarker} OK . Well , anyway , I guess {disfmarker} everybody here {disfmarker} Are y are {disfmarker} you are on that list , right ? So you got the note ?PhD G: Mm -hmm .Professor A: Yeah ? OK .PhD G: Yeah .Professor A: Um , so this was , uh , a , uh , proposal that we put in before on {disfmarker} on more {disfmarker} more higher level , uh , issues in meetings , from{disfmarker} I guess higher level from my point of view . Uh , {vocalsound} and , uh , meeting mappings , and , uh {disfmarker} so is i for {disfmarker} it was a {vocalsound} proposal for the ITR program , uh ,Information Technology Research program 's part of National Science Foundation . It 's the {pause} second year of their doing , uh , these grants . They 're {disfmarker} they 're {disfmarker} a lot of them are{disfmarker} some of them anyway , are larger {disfmarker} larger grants than the usual , small NSF grants , and . So , they 're very competitive , and they have a first phase where you put in pre - proposals , and we{disfmarker} we , uh , got through that . And so th the {disfmarker} the next phase will be {disfmarker} we 'll actually be doing a larger proposal . And I 'm {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I hope to be doing very little ofit . And {disfmarker} uh , {vocalsound} which was also true for the pre - proposal , so . Uh , there 'll be bunch of people working on it . So .Grad B: When 's {disfmarker} when 's the full proposal due ?Professor A: Uh ,I think April ninth , or something . So it 's about a month .PhD E: p sProfessor A: Um {disfmarker}Grad B: Yep . And they said end of business day you could check on the reviewer forms ,PhD G: uGrad B: is that{disfmarker}PhD G: Tomorrow .Professor A: Tomorrow . March second , I said .PhD E: Tomorrow ?Grad B: I 've been a day off all week .PhD C: Tomorrow .PhD E: Yeah .Grad B: I guess that 's a good thing cuz thatway I got my papers done early .PhD G: It would be interesting {disfmarker}Professor A: So that 's amazing you showed up at this meeting !Grad B: It is . It is actually quite amazing .PhD E: Yeah .PhD G: It 'll beinteresting to see the reviewer 's comments .Professor A: Yeah . Yeah . My favorite is was when {disfmarker} when {disfmarker} when one reviewer says , uh , " you know , this should be far more detailed " , and thenex the next reviewer says , " you know , there 's way too much detail " .Grad B: Yep . Or " this is way too general " , and the other reviewer says , " this is way too specific " .PhD C: Yeah .Professor A: Yeah .PhD C:Yeah .Professor A: Yeah .Grad B: " This is way too hard " , " way too easy " .Professor A: We 'll see . Maybe there 'll be something useful . And {disfmarker} and , uh {disfmarker}Grad B: Well it sounded like they{disfmarker} they {disfmarker} the first gate was pretty easy . Is that right ? That they didn't reject a lot of the pre - proposals ?Professor A: Do you know anything about the numbers ?Grad B: No . Just {disfmarker}just thPhD G: It 's just from his message it sounded like that .PhD E: Yeah . Yeah . I said something , yeah .PhD G: Gary Strong 's {disfmarker}Professor A: IPhD G: there was a sentence at the end of one of hisparagraphsPhD E: Yeah .PhD G: I {disfmarker}Professor A: I should go back and look . I didn't {disfmarker} I don't think that 's true .Grad B: Yeah , OK .PhD G: Mmm . He said the next phase 'll be very ,competitivePhD E: Very {disfmarker} very ,PhD G: because we didn't want to weed out much in the first phase .PhD E: yeah . Yeah .Professor A: Well we 'll have to see what the numbers are .Grad B: Or something likethat ,PhD C: Mm - hmm .Grad B: so .PhD C: Hmm .Professor A: Yeah . But they {disfmarker} they have to weed out enough so that they have enough reviewers .Grad B: Right .PhD C: Yeah .Professor A: So , uh , youknow , maybe they didn't r weed out as much as usual , but it 's {disfmarker} it 's usually a pretty {disfmarker} But it {disfmarker} Yeah . It 's {disfmarker} it 's certainly not {disfmarker} I 'm sure that it 's not downto one in two or something of what 's left .Grad B: Right .Professor A: I 'm sure it 's , you know {disfmarker}Grad B: How {disfmarker} how many awards are there , do you know ?Professor A: Well there 's differentnumbers of w awards for different size {disfmarker} They have three size grants . This one there 's , um {disfmarker} See the small ones are less than five hundred thousand total over three years and that they have afair number of them . Um , and the large ones are , uh , boy , I forget , I think , more than , uh , more than a million and a half , more than two million or something like that . And {disfmarker} and we 're in the middle{disfmarker} middle category .Grad B: Mm - hmm .Professor A: I think we 're , uh , uh , I forget what it was . But , um {disfmarker} Uh , I don't remember , but it 's {pause} pr probably along the li I {disfmarker} Icould be wrong on this yeah , but probably along the lines of fifteen or {disfmarker} that they 'll fund , or twenty . I mean when they {disfmarker} Do you {disfmarker} do you know how many they funded when they fin {disfmarker} in Chuck 's , that he got last year ?PhD G: I don't {disfmarker} I don't know .Professor A: Yeah .Grad B: I thought it was smaller , that it was like four or five , wasn't it ?Professor A: Well they fund{disfmarker}PhD G: I {disfmarker} I 'm {disfmarker}Professor A: they {disfmarker}PhD G: I don't remember .Professor A: yeah . I mean {disfmarker}Grad B: Uh it doesn't matter , we 'll find out one way or another.Professor A: Yeah . I mean last time I think they just had two categories , small and big ,Grad B: Mm - hmm .Professor A: and this time they came up with a middle one , so it 'll {disfmarker} there 'll be more of themthat they fund than {disfmarker} of the big .PhD G: If we end up getting this , um , what will it mean to ICSI in terms of , w wh where will the money go to , what would we be doing with it ?Professor A: Uh .Grad B:Exactly what we say in the proposal .PhD G: I {disfmarker} I mean uh which part is ICSI though .Professor A: You know , it {disfmarker} i None of it will go for those yachts that we 've talking about .PhD G: I mean{disfmarker} Dang !Professor A: Um , well , no , I mean it 's {disfmarker} u It {disfmarker}PhD G: It 's just for the research {disfmarker} to continue the research on the Meeting Recorder stuff ?Professor A: It 'sextending the research , right ? Because the other {disfmarker}PhD G: Yeah .Grad B: Yeah it 's go higher level stuff than we 've been talking about for Meeting Recorder .Professor A: Yeah . Yeah the other things thatwe have , uh , been working on with , uh , the c with Communicator {disfmarker} uh , especially with the newer things {disfmarker} with the more acoustically - oriented things are {disfmarker} are {disfmarker} are{disfmarker} are lower level . And , this is dealing with , uh , mapping on the level of {disfmarker} of , um , the conversation {disfmarker} of mapping the conversationsPhD G: Mm - hmm . Right , right .Professor A: todifferent kind of planes . So . Um . But , um . So it 's all it 's all stuff that none none of us are doing right now , or none of us are funded for , so it 's {disfmarker} so it 's {disfmarker} it would be new .PhD G: Soassuming everybody 's completely busy now , it means we 're gonna hafta , hire more students , or , something ?Professor A: Well there 's evenings , and there 's weekends , and {disfmarker} Uh . Yeah , there{disfmarker} there would be {disfmarker} there would be new hires , and {disfmarker} and there {disfmarker} there would be expansion , but , also , there 's always {disfmarker} {vocalsound} for everybody there 's{disfmarker} there 's always things that are dropping off , grants that are ending , or other things that are ending , so ,PhD G: Right .Professor A: there 's {disfmarker} there 's a {vocalsound} continual need to{disfmarker} to bring in new things .PhD C: Mm - hmm .Grad B: Yep .PhD G: Right .Professor A: But {disfmarker} but there definitely would be new {disfmarker} new {disfmarker} new , uh , students ,PhD G: I see.Professor A: and so forth , both at {disfmarker} at UW and here .Grad B: Are there any students in your class who are {vocalsound} expressing interest ?Professor A: Um , not {pause} clear yet . Not clear yet .Grad B:Other than the one who 's already here .Professor A: I mean we got {vocalsound} {disfmarker} we have {disfmarker} yeah , two of them are {disfmarker} two in the c There 're {pause} two in the class already here ,and then {disfmarker} and {disfmarker} and , uh {disfmarker} uh , then there 's a third who 's doing a project here , who , uh {disfmarker} But he {disfmarker} he {disfmarker} he won't be in the country that long,Grad B: Mm - hmm .Professor A: and , maybe another will end up .Grad B: Yep .Professor A: Actually there is one other guy who 's looking {disfmarker} that {disfmarker} that 's that guy , uh , Jeremy ? {comment} Ithink .PhD C: Mm - hmm . Professor A: Anyway , yeah that 's {disfmarker} that 's all I was gonna say is that {disfmarker} that that 's {disfmarker} you know , that 's nice and we 're sorta preceding to the next step ,and , {vocalsound} it 'll mean some more work , uh , you know , in {disfmarker} in March in getting the proposal out , and then , it 's , uh , you know {disfmarker} We 'll see what happens . Uh , the last one was{disfmarker} that you had there , {comment} was about naming ?Grad B: Yep . It just , uh {disfmarker} we 've been cutting up sound files , in {disfmarker} for ba both digits and for , uh , doing recognition . And Lizhad some suggestions on naming and it just brought up the whole issue that hasn't really been resolved about naming . So , uh , one thing she would like to have is for all the names to be the same length so that


Project Manager: Okay . Everybody ready ?Marketing: Okay .Industrial Designer: Yeah .Project Manager: Uh I think the first thing we do is introduce ourselvesMarketing: I think so .Project Manager: and everybody'sname and what your function is ?Marketing: Yeah , that's a good plan .Project Manager: So maybe we start with you ?User Interface: Okay . Yeah , my name is Francina . And I'm uh an user interface {disfmarker} myrole is uh {disfmarker} the main responsibility is user interface .Project Manager: Mm-hmm .User Interface: And my role is to design uh a television remote control .Project Manager: Mm-hmm . Okay .Marketing: AndI'm a marketing person . I wanna figure out how to sell them .Project Manager: Mm-hmm . And your name is ?Marketing: My name is Eileen .Project Manager: Okay .Industrial Designer: Yeah . Uh I'm Jeanne-Oui . Umuh my role is industrial designer and my responsibilities are uh uh um deal with the {vocalsound} technical-functional designs and specifications of user interface and dealing with user interface design .Project Manager:Very good . And as you already know I am Betty . I am the project manager for today . So why don't we look at the presentation {vocalsound} to see what we really are supposed to do . {vocalsound} Um .Marketing:Okay .Project Manager: {vocalsound} Yes y opening , acquaintance , tool training {disfmarker} well , the tools are , I think , we already {disfmarker} I guess the tool is really our {disfmarker} the computer , as far as Ican see .Marketing: Mm-hmm .Project Manager: Uh we get ins each of us will get instructions and we'll take it from there . Project plan , that falls under the same heading pretty much . Um , I don't think we have anygreat discussion at this point .Marketing: No .Project Manager: Um . Here is what this thing should be . This thing we are gonna um uh design is a new remote control . Uh should be original {vocalsound} , trendy , and, of course , user friendly .Marketing: Mm-hmm . {vocalsound} {vocalsound}Project Manager: So maybe you wanna make some notes of that .Marketing: Okay .Project Manager: Okay ?Marketing: Mm-hmm .ProjectManager: All right . {vocalsound} Here is what the functional design is supposed to achieve . Um . That is it's gonna be individual work and then at the meeting we'll discuss what uh we have come up with . The samegoes for the conceptual design , there will be individual work whic and then discussion afterwards . Detailed design , same thing basically .Marketing: Mm 'kay so {disfmarker} Three different types of design that we'regonna be concerned with okay .Project Manager: Mm-hmm . Mm-hmm .Marketing: Functional , conception and detailed .Project Manager: I can't write with this thing . {vocalsound}Marketing: {vocalsound} Maybe weshould redesign it . {vocalsound}Project Manager: {vocalsound} Yes . {vocalsound}Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}Marketing: After we've finished the remote control we'll get to that .Project Manager: {vocalsound}Yeah , okay . All right ? Then , tool training try out the white board , participant can draw their favourite animal . Does anybody want to go and see how the white board works ? So that in case we have to , in the nextmeeting , present something on the white board . You wanna go Eileen and {disfmarker}Marketing: Okay , I'll see what I can do .Project Manager: Whether you {disfmarker} without hanging yourself .{vocalsound}Marketing: See if I r See if I remember how to draw a kitty cat or a rabbit or something . {vocalsound}User Interface: {vocalsound}Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}Marketing: {vocalsound}ProjectManager: And remember you have to press so it works .Marketing: So that it will record okay .Project Manager: Mm-hmm .Marketing: Um uh um traditional kitty cat .Project Manager: {vocalsound} Fat , a fat cat .{vocalsound}User Interface: {vocalsound}Marketing: {vocalsound} I've a very fat cat .Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} {vocalsound}Project Manager: {vocalsound}Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}Marketing:{vocalsound} And it likes to sit like that .Project Manager: Okay .Marketing: Okay .Project Manager: And you're Francine , right ? Would you like s like just to see um how it feels , so that you have a little idea ?UserInterface: Yes , I'm Francina . Yes , sure . {vocalsound}Project Manager: In {disfmarker}Marketing: Am I supposed to wipe off that or {disfmarker}Project Manager: No , no . No , that's okay .User Interface: No , Okay.Marketing: okay .Project Manager: I don't know , we'll get to that later .Marketing: Okay .User Interface: What should I draw ? {vocalsound}Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} {vocalsound} Snake .User Interface: I'mgoing to draw a snake . {vocalsound}Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}Project Manager: {vocalsound} Okay .User Interface: How does it look like ? {vocalsound}Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}Marketing: Uh , okay.Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}Project Manager: {vocalsound} Okay .Marketing: I hope the kitty cat is hungry 'cause I don't like snakes . {vocalsound}Project Manager: {vocalsound}User Interface:{vocalsound}Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} {vocalsound}Project Manager: Here's the project finance uh which , of course , we all have to think about when we design this thing . Um selling price is supposed to betwenty five Euro . Uh profit aim for the company is fifty million Euro ,Marketing: Mm-hmm . {vocalsound}Project Manager: the market range unlimited meaning internationalMarketing: Okay .Project Manager: and theproduction cost should not exceed {disfmarker} hopefully should be less than twelve fifty Euro .Marketing: Mm 'kay that should keep everybody on their toes and challenged .Project Manager: Mm-hmm .Marketing:Profit . Um is fifty mm .Project Manager: So these are all things , of course , to remember with the budget and when you design {vocalsound} to materials , cost , etcetera . Now , uh the discussion I guess is um doesanyone of you have experience with remote control ?Marketing: Oops .Project Manager: I exp I s 'cause we we use 'em {disfmarker} we use 'em , right , everyday .Industrial Designer: Yeah , of course , using remotecontrol . Yeah .User Interface: Yes .Project Manager: And um now having used a remote control for years does anybody already have like an idea like things you didn't like with it , things you would like to change ,things you would like to improve with this thing ye any first ideas ? Would you like it to be smaller , bigger ,Industrial Designer: Uh .Project Manager: have more have more buttons on it or maybe clearly {disfmarker}better marked buttons , you know , things like that ?User Interface: Yeah , I {disfmarker}Industrial Designer: Yeah .User Interface: Yes , I I feel that all the remote should be very compact .Industrial Designer: Yeah.Project Manager: Small , right . Mm-hmm .User Interface: Yeah , those which we get here nowadays it's very long .Project Manager: Mm-hmm .User Interface: And um and it should have multi-purpose . Like uh theremote control which we use for T_V_ , it shou uh it should be used f uh for some other purpose also , like controlling the uh temperature inside the house or for air-conditioners , or for heating system .Project Manager:Mm-hmm .Industrial Designer: Audio player . Oh . Okay .Project Manager: So it should be a multi-functional uh gadget that would um control all your household uh uh machines basically .User Interface: Yes , exactlyYes .Industrial Designer: Hmm .User Interface: Yes .Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Divides us {disfmarker}User Interface: Yeah . Exactly .Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Yeah . Yeah .Marketing: {vocalsound}At um twelve fifty Euros per {disfmarker} {vocalsound}User Interface: {vocalsound}Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}Project Manager: Well .Marketing: Well who knows if we get a really good designer maybe we cando that .Industrial Designer: Yeah .Marketing: {vocalsound} We certainly can try to {disfmarker} I agree with her that to market something successfully it should do some more things .Project Manager: It should besomething new {disfmarker} it should be s it it should do something different than than just what we have .Marketing: That's right .Project Manager: Now , of course , the other thing to think there is maybe the design.User Interface: Yeah .Industrial Designer: Yeah , of course .User Interface: Yeah , design should be , yeah {disfmarker} it should be different . All the {disfmarker} almost all the remotes {disfmarker}Project Manager:Like trendy no like f for earlier we saw maybe it should be something trendy you know . Maybe it should {disfmarker} different colours or materials or you know .User Interface: Yes , exactly .Industrial Designer: Yeah ,maybe ten {disfmarker} I do yeah , coloursUser Interface: Are different shapes .Industrial Designer: and al shapes also . Yeah .User Interface: Yes .Project Manager: Um so yeah shapes right , you know , like kidneyshape feels better in your hand or something , you know .User Interface: Yes .Industrial Designer: Yeah of course yeah .Marketing: Yeah okay , friendly shape , that would help .Project Manager: Yeah .Marketing: Ithink another thing that would help is um if it beeps when you clap ,Project Manager: Yes .Marketing: because I think one of the big things that happens is people lose them . They can't find it .Project Manager:{vocalsound} That is true ,User Interface: {vocalsound}Project Manager: because they put a newspaper or they put it behind a plant or , we you know , whatever .Marketing: {vocalsound}Industrial Designer: Yeah .{vocalsound}Project Manager: And and they {disfmarker} suddenly the phone rings and they want to turn the T_V_ off and they say , where the hell is my {vocalsound} my remote control yeah ?Marketing: Mm-hmm.Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}Project Manager: Well or yeah or if it's really , if it's really in a dark spot that it gives out a a sound or a signal .Marketing: So some {disfmarker} {vocalsound}Industrial Designer:Yeah , some beep or something like that ,Project Manager: Yeah . Mm-hmm .User Interface: Or a bMarketing: Uh so , so it's really the beep or , or a light should blink .Industrial Designer: so that we can go{disfmarker}Project Manager: So if lost {disfmarker} If lost uh signal with b throw signal , you know .User Interface: Should haIndustrial Designer: Yeah .User Interface: A fluorescent signal , yeah .Marketing: Mm 'kay.Industrial Designer: Yeah , maybe it should have a light so that we can , we can just recognise where it is .Project Manager: Exactly , I mean just {vocalsound} that's what I'm saying .Industrial Designer: Yeah , yeah .May not be beep .Project Manager: I'm just saying throw signal meaning just whether it's a beep or whether a light or {disfmarker}Industrial Designer: Beep or uh it's a light , maybe it's a light .Marketing: And do youthink a good c c um clue for that is that it would respond to a clap or it would respond to your voice or it would respond {disfmarker} what what should you have to do to make it beep or blink ?Project Manager: Okay ,my {disfmarker} my idea is maybe that the minute it's really hidden , in in other words if it's like in a dark spot , uh meaning you know like a newspaper is on top , a sweater is on top or it it's behind a plant , at thatmoment it's it's like , it's like um , what you call it {disfmarker} a light s sensors , you know ?Marketing: Mm-hmm . Mm-hmm .Project Manager: In in that moment it has a sensor , i it it gets a certain darkness , it gehas a sensor and it gives out a signal whether that be a light signal or a beep ,Marketing: Okay so {disfmarker}User Interface: Yes .Marketing: Okay .Project Manager: I mean , that we can discuss that later , you know.Industrial Designer: Yeah , probably {disfmarker} yeah , probably it's a {disfmarker} yeah , yeah .User Interface: Yeah . And uh {disfmarker}Marketing: So the light sensor would activate the signal .Project Manager:That's right . You know there would be {vocalsound} {disfmarker}Industrial Designer: Mm-hmm .Project Manager: right you have to have some kind of sensor and I I think uh voice or clapping it's not specific enough .Uh I know there are the lamps and stuff , you know , you can clap on and off ,Marketing: Mm-hmm .User Interface: Yes .Project Manager: but I think they only work to certain degree and {disfmarker}Marketing: But itcould be someplace really obvious and you still wouldn't be able to find it .Project Manager: What with {disfmarker}Industrial Designer: Yeah , of course , that didn't {disfmarker}User Interface: Then , in that case{disfmarker}Marketing: Well , because you're s because you're silly . Because people are silly .Industrial Designer: I i we can't do it .Project Manager: Oh yeah well , but then those people {disfmarker} we can't helpeverybody . {vocalsound}Marketing: I mean it could be on {disfmarker} well , i if it were like on top of your bookcase and you usually kept it on the coffee tableIndustrial Designer: {vocalsound}Marketing: um{vocalsound} ,Project Manager: Okay we have uh {disfmarker}Marketing: you know , well {disfmarker} maybe we have to move along , okay .Project Manager: yeah , we have to move along , but I think we havesome good good points to start with here .Industrial Designer: Yeah , good point .Project Manager: Okay , the next meeting will be in thirty minutes . I think you all {disfmarker} did you get uh notices on yourcomputer for this ? Okay so well , you got the notice umIndustrial Designer: Me yeah .User Interface: Yes .Project Manager: {disfmarker} uh . The working design , I guess that's the function I_D_ {disfmarker} uh whois this ? The industrial designer {disfmarker} That's you .Industrial Designer: Yeah . Yeah , it's functional de yeah , exactly , technical .Project Manager: Okay . So , we looking for a working design when we come back.Industrial Designer: Yeah .Project Manager: {vocalsound}Industrial Designer: Uh working design , yeah , it's it's uh mainly technical-functional design .Project Manager: Then {disfmarker} And then the technical functyou are the technical function ,Industrial Designer: Yeah , functional design ,Project Manager: so so you are the working design .Industrial Designer: and you {disfmarker}Project Manager: So you have a workingdesign and then a functional design .User Interface: Okay .Project Manager: And the marketing manager is coming up with some user requirement specification , like friendliness , and what we just discussed in general .That would be your idea . And , of course , price . That it , that it , that the price is a good price . I mean , the price is given , but , that was {disfmarker}Marketing: Mm-hmm . We have to justify that price by havingsufficient features to make it sell at that price .Project Manager: That's right . That's right .User Interface: {vocalsound}Project Manager: And , you know , specifi you you will get specific um instructions for that . I thinkthat's the end of the show . Yeah . So um {vocalsound} we have {disfmarker} well , we have a twen two two two three minutes . Um any questions at this point ? Or uh suggestions ?Marketing: Mm .Project Manager: Ithink {disfmarker} basically basically you will get instructions to work with and if you have any questions uh , uh I guess , you can uh {disfmarker}User Interface: Okay .Industrial Designer: Yeah .Marketing: Okay , Ithink I have enough to think about 'til our next meeting .Project Manager: Mm-hmm .Industrial Designer: Yeah , even I have .Marketing: How about you people ?Project Manager: Mm-hmm .User Interface: Yes.Industrial Designer: Yeah , even I have , I think , yeah .Marketing: Really ? Okay . 'Kay .Project Manager: Okay .Industrial Designer: Yeah , so let's see .Marketing: Alright , well uh {disfmarker}Project Manager: Thenuh we see you in about thirty minutes . And see what we can come up with .User Interface: Yes .Industrial Designer: Hmm .User Interface: Okay .Marketing: Okay , very good .Project Manager: Okay ?User Interface:Yes .Industrial Designer: Yeah .