Project Manager: Hi Kate . {vocalsound} Okay , carry on .Industrial Designer: Just just carry on . {vocalsound}Project Manager: {vocalsound} Alright um this is the beginning of the third meeting , the conceptualdesign meeting . Um our agenda should be um that we're opening the meeting , I have {disfmarker} the minutes from the previous meeting are on the shared f drive at this point . Um and we should each have apresentation to make . Um we have certain decisions to make and we have forty minutes total . It's twenty five after two at the moment , so forty minutes is five after three , {vocalsound} um which I'll be keeping aneye on the clock for us . Okay . {vocalsound} Um there are the decisions we have to turn to , but we'll come back to them in a minute after I take us to the minutes of the previous meeting . Right um as we remember ,I opened the meeting , the four of us were present , the meeting {disfmarker} the first meeting's minutes were reviewed and approved . Um Sarah , you presented a marketing research report um which pretty muchrep represented that fifteen to thirty five year olds uh it has to be hand-held , power , channel , volume , number keys , possibly a speech recognition . And then Steph did a second presentation um that those functionsplus streamlining them with big user-friendly keys that were easy to use . I think all of us agreed with those things . Kate presented a working design of {disfmarker} going after {disfmarker} going over the basics onthe whiteboard um that it should be a simple mass-produced device , because of the twelve and a half Pence cost . Um but we did talk about possibly using rechargeable batteries and having a docking place as a sellingpoint . Um and the new requirements that it for {disfmarker} be for T_V_ only um and that it include the l so slogan and colour of the uh corporate design be included . Um {vocalsound} the corporate image . So weagreed that the target market would be fifteen to thirty five with more money than sense , that were decision makers . Alternatively it would be a manufacturer to enclose it with the T_V_ , but it still should meet thoseparameters . Um and that the function we agreed was volume , power , numbers , enter , channels , a way to move between channels , easy to use and hand-held . {vocalsound} Um at that point we agreed that Sarahwould look at the current cost of competition , what what do the current ones sell for . Um and Steph was gonna look at ec ergonomics . Kate was gonna look at cost and feasibility of the various possibilities that wediscussed . And I was to type up these minutes and work on the final report . Is this a fair presentation of what our last meeting was ?User Interface: Yeah .Industrial Designer: Mm-hmm .User Interface: Yes .ProjectManager: Okay . Right . So we're ready to close that and go back to our {disfmarker} That one . Right . We're up to the point of the {disfmarker} Go back . Um {vocalsound} the three presentations . So we're going topull the plug on me and turn to Sarah . Is that okay ? Is that alright with everybody else ?Industrial Designer: Mm-hmm . {vocalsound}User Interface: Yep .Project Manager: Especially since Kate asked to be last .{vocalsound} Sarah , I'm sorry if I misspelled your name , I didn't know whether it was S_A_R_A_ or {vocalsound} S_A_R_H_ .Marketing: {vocalsound} {vocalsound} I respond to either .Project Manager: You respondto whatever you get , huh ? {vocalsound}Marketing: No worries .Project Manager: Okay . Um , did you do your {disfmarker} Hit {disfmarker}User Interface: Yeah , {gap}Project Manager: Ah , there it is . Ta-da.Marketing: Okay , first thing I want to address is um one of the points that Florence brought up , which was uh current cost of the competition devices , similar to the ones that Stephanie uh showed us and and they'reuh twenty to sixty Euros , depending on uh branding .User Interface: Right .Marketing: Some of them that have a higher brand recognition are on the more expensive end . But I think that with the current um price thatwe're searching for , we're well within , even on the lower end , of the uh of the market .Project Manager: Mm 'kay .Marketing: But I'm going to move on to more interesting um {vocalsound} more vibrant things .{vocalsound} So , I investigated the remote control market in greater detail , and my uh {disfmarker} the theme of what I was to work on was uh trend watch .User Interface: {vocalsound}Marketing: And{vocalsound}Project Manager: 'Kay .User Interface: {vocalsound}Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Sorry . {vocalsound}User Interface: {vocalsound}Marketing: {vocalsound}Project Manager: {vocalsound}UserInterface: {vocalsound}Industrial Designer: I'm glad to see the marketing budget is being so well spent on {vocalsound} {gap} . {vocalsound}Marketing: {vocalsound}Project Manager: {vocalsound}Marketing:{vocalsound} I know that you all are a distance from cutting edge marketing research ,Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}Marketing: so you know , I'm just gonna try to cloak it in really professional terms here . What'shot , fruit and veg . Spongy .Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}User Interface: {vocalsound}Marketing: And this is all over the catwalks , Paris , Milan , and I'm talking about clothing , furniture , shoes .{vocalsound}Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}Marketing: This is really interesting change from past years ,Project Manager: Mm .User Interface: {vocalsound}Marketing: because it is much more organic , um somewould say approachable . {vocalsound} And I think if we're to refashion our view of what we want in a remote control , we should perhaps think about incorporating technologically interesting fabrics and some of thebold colours into a simple handset . So . {vocalsound} I also did a little research on um {vocalsound} what again are the most important priorities in uh decision making about uh purchasing . Fancy . Functional is out .And f the fancy , and that's exactly the term , I'm I'm thinking polished , elegant , {vocalsound} you know , kind of innovative , but a cut above . This is twice as important as the next finding , which is technologicallyinnovative . This is interesting , 'cause I think in the last meeting we were talking about technology as being so important , but maybe what's innovative is having it simple with um with uh technologically {vocalsound}superior fabrics or uh , you know , designed in interesting substances . Ease of use . Again , pretty low , I mean it's the top three , but each of the uh fancy and technologically innovative are far more important . So Ithink we should cloak the streamlined remote control device in a series of {vocalsound} fruit {vocalsound} fruit themed sleeves .User Interface: {vocalsound}Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} {vocalsound} I thinkthat's a good idea . Don't you ? {vocalsound}Marketing: {vocalsound} Y yeah , you know {disfmarker}Project Manager: It sounds like the the uh covers that they use for the remote , you know , your t your cell phone.User Interface: Yes .Marketing: Exactly . {vocalsound} Exactly . I was thinking though that instead of having something uh like patterned , you know , so , you know , something similar to a summer dress . {gap} youknow , it would have like fruit and veg , is that we actually make these spongy .Project Manager: Mm .Marketing: They could be {disfmarker} ini initially I thought we could start with kind of um fruit that would suit kindof uh a long uh hand-held , so banana , pineapple and pear . Um it could actually {disfmarker} the sleeve could {vocalsound} take up a lot of the {vocalsound} development and the remote control , we'd just need toget reductionist on it . {vocalsound}User Interface: {vocalsound} {vocalsound}Marketing: They could be interchangeable , they're spongy , that goes back to ergonomic , and the youngsters love 'em , fun for the wholefamily , everyone can have their own . So what we're talking about is changing . this concept . Everyone has a T_V_ remote , but then we add in the fact that they could each have their own individual fruit .UserInterface: {vocalsound}Marketing: {vocalsound} That's what's hot on the catwalks . {vocalsound} So , this is my {disfmarker} This is what I'm thinking .Project Manager: Hmm .User Interface: {vocalsound}{vocalsound}Project Manager: Uh-huh mm . In most families , don't {disfmarker} isn't the remote {disfmarker} is a remote .Marketing: Y yeah , but I think I think what this would allow is perhaps a person in thefamily who had the most opinion about it {disfmarker} we all need a remote ,Project Manager: Mm .Marketing: but the person who is really perhaps active in personalising , I'm thinking the teenager , the {disfmarker}someone fifteen to thirty five would go out and get this additional thing the same way as you mentioned that people would get the cell phone covers .User Interface: {vocalsound} So when your dad's sitting there ,overriding your decision , going no we're gonna watch this , you can bring out your own remote and be like zap , no we're gonna watch this .Marketing: {vocalsound} Yeah . W and {vocalsound} plus I think{disfmarker}Project Manager: Mm . Well actually some households do have three and four T_V_sMarketing: {vocalsound} Uh yeah .User Interface: {gap}Project Manager: and they would have a remote for each one,Marketing: Yeah .Project Manager: so .Marketing: Yeah . So this is an idea and I I {disfmarker} you know , this is exactly what the research has uh has shown . So I really open this up to uh any other feedback . This{vocalsound} spongy fruit and veg .Industrial Designer: Yeah , I I think we're gonna have some trouble when we get down to the component design on this .Marketing: Thanks . {vocalsound} Alright .Project Manager:Hmm .Industrial Designer: Spongy is gonna be difficult , I'm afraid .User Interface: Yep . {vocalsound} And as for as for um well budgeting as well , if we're gonna have lots of different interchangeable components.Project Manager: Hmm . {vocalsound}Marketing: {vocalsound} I I just have my ear to the market , guys . {gap} {disfmarker}User Interface: {vocalsound} Is this {gap} to the market {gap} ?Industrial Designer:Yeah , I mean basically we can make these things out of wood , titanium , plastic or rubber . I suppose rubber is the closest to spongy ,Marketing: Is spongiest , yeah .Industrial Designer: yeah .Marketing: That wouldadd {disfmarker}Industrial Designer: I was thinking titanium myself .User Interface: I was thinking titanium , I was thinking it's just {disfmarker} I have been influenced by pictures of iPods , and they're alsominimalist and shiny .Marketing: Mm-hmm . {vocalsound} They are and they they would fulfil the uh first um priority , which is fancy . I think many of us would associate those with fancy . Something else we could dois uh call it something that's fruit and veg oriented . We could call it uh {disfmarker} {vocalsound} The name .Project Manager: Are we talking about the device itself or the c or a cover for the device that would be aninterchangeable cov cover as a separate product ?Marketing: {vocalsound} Well it would be uh a a very simple product that would have a spongy sleeve that would be interchangeable . So {disfmarker}ProjectManager: Perhaps perhaps that desi that particular suggestion needs to go back to managementUser Interface: Yeah , but it's kind of pointless , isn't it ?Project Manager: and perhaps go to another group to actuallydesign as a separate product .User Interface: Yeah .Marketing: {vocalsound} That , you know , that might be {disfmarker}User Interface: Let's delegate . {vocalsound}Project Manager: Wo would that be agreeable?Marketing: And then we could keep it titanium .Industrial Designer: Yeah . {vocalsound} W w would it be helpful if um I described the components a bit , because I think it would give you um {disfmarker} maybe bringthis discussion back to Earth of what we can actually physically do .User Interface: {vocalsound} Yeah , maybe . Or {disfmarker}Project Manager: Do you wanna be next or you want Kate to go next ?User Interface: Ithink possibly it might be more useful if Kate went next .Project Manager: Okay , we'll move the {disfmarker}User Interface: Um {disfmarker}Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}User Interface: {vocalsound} You caneven have them in different flavours as well . {vocalsound} So that if you just wanna sit there and chew on the remote , it could be like pear flavour ,Marketing: Yeah . Or s or smelly . ScratchyUser Interface: yeah .Scratch and sniff . {vocalsound}Marketing: Uh well I was really thinking a lot about the I_ uh the iMac kind of gel gem tone .Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Right , wellMarketing: It's hot on the streets , guys.Industrial Designer: I I I think some of this um {disfmarker}User Interface: {vocalsound}Industrial Designer: you're gonna be a little disappointed with some of the things I have to tell you , but I'm afraid this is thereal world . {vocalsound} So um I've been looking at the the basics of how these devices actually have to work in order to operate , and I've had some discussions with the ma manufacturing division , who have told mewhat's actually available , you know , what the current state of the art in components is , and some of the exciting new things they've got , but I'm not sure that it's quite what you want um . Now this isn't a very goodoverhead , but this is just to show you , this is the innards of a remote control um . I really need a pen or something but uh {disfmarker} does my mouse work ? No . Um {disfmarker} oh yeah , can you see my littlemouse pointer ?Project Manager: Mm .Industrial Designer: Right . This is this is the a a {vocalsound} a remote that's been opened upProject Manager: Mm .Industrial Designer: and that's the the back of the interface .And this is a push-button one , so you see these little little buttons here , they're little rubber rubber buttons that go through onto the the board at the back and they push these buttons here . Um {vocalsound} and we{disfmarker} that's the basic construction that we've got to got to accommodate . We got to have something that pushes the little buttons that um talk to the chip that encodes the message that sends the the messageto the receiver . So um I wan I wanna go through not not just addressing the um {vocalsound} uh the the points that you made , Sarah , but um {vocalsound} doing my presentation in the order I wrote it .{vocalsound} So first of all um I wanna talk about what possibilities we've got for the energy source .Marketing: {vocalsound}Industrial Designer: Um we can have your bog standard double double A_ batteries in areplaceable um little compartment . We can have a hand {disfmarker} {vocalsound} sorry {disfmarker}User Interface: {vocalsound} A wind-up .Marketing: {vocalsound}Industrial Designer: a wind-up , yeah ,{vocalsound} which I think is quite an interesting concept for a {disfmarker} {vocalsound} sorry {disfmarker} for a remote control ,Marketing: {vocalsound}Project Manager: {vocalsound}Industrial Designer: but i itmaybe is {disfmarker} doesn't quite go with the um the fruit and veg .Marketing: {vocalsound} {vocalsound} {vocalsound}Project Manager: {vocalsound} Alright .Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} {vocalsound} Umone that one that I think is quite interesting is the kinetic energy source ,Marketing: {vocalsound}Project Manager: Remember , we only have forty minutesIndustrial Designer: where um {vocalsound} you you actuallyget the energy by moving the device ,Marketing: Mm .Project Manager: Hmm .Industrial Designer: which is quite a ni a nice and neat one . You have to {disfmarker} it means that if it's sitting there for a long time itprobably won't work , but you have to sort of throw it between your hands every now and then , it'll work .User Interface: {vocalsound}Industrial Designer: Or we we had talked about solar power ,Marketing: Hmm.Industrial Designer: but I thing that we agreed that that's not so good in the dark .Project Manager: Mm .Industrial Designer: Now I'm afraid this is the options we've got on on the case . It can be made of plastic ,rubber , wood o if you like , {vocalsound} or titanium .Marketing: {vocalsound} Hmm .User Interface: {vocalsound}Industrial Designer: Um and the nearest we've got to st to spongy there I guess is rubber , but um{vocalsound} I'm gonna come back to the advantages of titanium ,Marketing: Hmm .Industrial Designer: and basically it can have a flat surface , a curved surface or a double curved surface , but I think if we wannause standard components , we're gonna have difficulty with anything much beyond that .Marketing: Hmm .Industrial Designer: Okay , what does the interface look like ? Um well push button , that's that's the one we'reall familiar with . {vocalsound} Um we can have scroll buttons and the the scroll button can incorporate a push ,Project Manager: Hmm .Industrial Designer: so you can have it like on a mouse where you can use it togo up and down , change volume or channel or something like that and push to select something . {vocalsound} Um you can have multiple scroll buttons , um this is maybe getting a little bit complicated , but um it's it{disfmarker} the technology is there . And we can also incorporate an L_C_D_ display in the remote , but this will increase the cost . {vocalsound} {vocalsound} Um the electronics that actually makes the device work ,we've basically got three , simple , regular , advanced , and the price goes up as we choose each of this . If we want the nice cheap one , the simple , then we can only have push buttons . All the other fancy interfacedesigns go out the window , I'm afraid . Um pay a little bit more for a regular chip and you can have scroll buttons . If you want the advanced chip it obviously costs more , but it {disfmarker} that's what you need ifyou want the L_C_D_ display . And the manufacturing devision tell me that they have recently developed um sample sensor sample speaker devices . Now I don't know what that is , but I think they think it's quiteimportant and we might want to incorporate it somewhere . Um ou our real expertise is in push buttons , I have to say , but maybe you think that's old technology . {vocalsound}Marketing: Mm .Industrial Designer:And {disfmarker} well I I think we've got two options . We can either go for a really cheap model , keep all of the costs down , um which {vocalsound} means a flat plastic case with an ordinary battery and simple pushbuttons . Or we can have something that looks a bit nicer , I think it , um won't necessarily l uh look like a pineapple , but um that {vocalsound} may or may not be a good thing .Marketing: {vocalsound}User Interface:{vocalsound}Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Sorry . {vocalsound} Um {vocalsound} but it could have an L_C_D_ screen and it could have multiple scroll buttons , and it could have the the company's newdevelopment of the um sample sensor and speaker . {vocalsound} So , thank you .Marketing: That sounds good . Any idea {disfmarker} {vocalsound} you you mentioned that there would be a cost difference.Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Yeah ,Marketing: Um do you have any idea if if this could {disfmarker} if the fancy model could be done in twelve Euros fifty ?Industrial Designer: I'm afraid I don't have thatinformation available . Um manufacturing didn't actually give {disfmarker} attach any prices to any of this , I'm afraid .Project Manager: Hmm .Marketing: Hmm . Because , you know what , I'm being quite seriouswhen I say that that um the things I mentioned are hot . But I think the important thing might be to choose one .Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Yeah mm-hmm .Marketing: You know , if if what you're telling me is isum some of these things aren't just f aren't feasible , maybe we could something about naming , we could call it , you know , Blackberry .User Interface: Bear bear in mind it has to be the colours and styles of thecompany ,Marketing: That's uh {disfmarker}User Interface: so what I had been thinking was something chunky and yellow and plastic with black buttons with a logo on it .Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Banana?Marketing: {vocalsound} Alright , well let's see then .User Interface: But um I I don't know how important that is to keep it exactly the colours of the Real Reaction company .Marketing: Yeah .User Interface: It's justwhat I'd understood we'd be doing . That's before I heard about all this hot tips about the future , fruit-wise .Marketing: Yeah . But {disfmarker} yeah ,Industrial Designer: We we could we could do um a double curvedrubber one ,Marketing: I'm trying to streamline mine a little bit .Industrial Designer: which would allow um say a banana , but um unfortunately I see from my notes that if we do that , we have to have a push button asthe interface ,Marketing: Yeah .Industrial Designer: we can't do anything fancier .User Interface: Shall we wait 'til I've 'til I've showed you what {disfmarker} well , {vocalsound} my extensive presentation


Project Manager: That should hopefully do the trick , um . 'Kay . Sorry about the small delay . Falling a little bit behind schedule . And that's uh fifteen twenty five . Okay . So just to try and roughly go over what weagreed in the last one , um we're gonna go for something uh uh how was it ? Uh The new black , I believe .Marketing: {gap} .Project Manager: Um something that looks good 'cause that seems to be in preference toactual functionality in the end , though we should never avoid functionality , of course . Uh many of our components are gonna be standard , off the shelf , but it seemed like we were gonna require at least an advancedchip and we were still very much for the idea of using an L_C_D_ display . Um other things were we were hoping to use rubber , most likely gonna be double curved , etcetera . Okay . So um due to your hard work , wemight as well let the uh two designers go first , and uh show us the prototype .User Interface: Okay , it's a {disfmarker}Project Manager: Quite how the best way to do this is , I'm not sure ,Industrial Designer:{vocalsound}User Interface: {gap} I think if we both step upProject Manager: but {disfmarker}User Interface: and uh outline our ideas . Okay . Now do {disfmarker} uh doing the prototype gave us a bit more insightinto the ergonomics of the design . Um for one thing , it turned out that the only point at which it needs to be articulated for handedness is um is h i is down here for the uh L_E_D_ . As it turned out , the whole thingtransfers from the right to left hand fairly well from the point of view of operating the uh function buttons and joystick , though it might be an idea to be able to a adjust the positions for the base of the joystick just alittle bit for uh {disfmarker}Project Manager: Okay .User Interface: {gap} ju just a thought . You could simply have a slightly ovoid shaped joystick that could then just be turn uh twisted round , so that the uh sticky uhso that the bit that sticks out a bit more is on one side or the other . But as you as you see with the uh {vocalsound} with holding it in the left hand , the L_ uh the L_C_D_ is nowhere useful , so that would need to bearticulated uh if we're going to retain {gap} ergonomic design . Um now I I got your note about uh keeping the cost down .Project Manager: I'm afraid yeah .User Interface: Yeah .Project Manager: We'll go into that abit more ,User Interface: {gap} this design could be done with um with uh plastic casing .Project Manager: but please go on .User Interface: Though I would recommend around the grip part here in the middle , havingmaybe just a rubber grip over that which would allow for a slightly more sort of bio-morphic form , and a bit more ergonomic as well . As for the um as for the single curve , um well this edge and this edge , like I say itwould be nice to have some curvature to it , but it's not absolutely necessary . Really the curve that's most needed is the underside so that the jo so that the joystick rests over the the edge of the hand like this . Umand you have the uh transmitter here and a wee speaker for the uh for the uh for the uh fi uh for the remote control finder . So .Project Manager: {vocalsound}User Interface: Any further comments ?IndustrialDesigner: Um obviously it's gonna be bulkier than how it looks , because it's gonna be flat on one side , so the L_C_D_ will be s sticking down like this , won't it ?User Interface: Mm-hmm . Yeah .Industrial Designer:'Cause it {disfmarker} you can't get it curved .User Interface: Yeah , I mean theIndustrial Designer: Uh because of costs .User Interface: uh {disfmarker} Yeah .Industrial Designer: And it's plastic as well , so it won'tbe as comfortable on the hand .User Interface: Yeah . I mean with the with the rubber design it could i you know it could pretty much mould very much to the to the user's hand .Project Manager: Mm .User Interface:One nice wee feature if we could if we could still do the rubber , I though of was to have {gap} the uh rubber extend beyond the end of the uh {vocalsound} of the rigid substructure . So it has a wee sort of tail that youjust drape over your wrist so it stays in position nicely .Project Manager: {vocalsound}User Interface: Mm . Lovely . Um .Industrial Designer: Yeah , {gap} . {vocalsound}Project Manager: Okay , yeah . Great . Um.Marketing: Right . Yeah I've got a {disfmarker} if you load up my evaluation document .Project Manager: Yeah , okay {gap} .User Interface: Okay .Project Manager: Excellent work .Marketing: Mm .Project Manager:Um .Marketing: Uh evaluation . {vocalsound} Basic point uh have a list of criteria that we need to rate the prototype by . {vocalsound} Um then we will {disfmarker} it's a seven s um seven seven step kinda evaluationprocess . So um not seven steps , seven scale . So after we've finished doing all the ratings for each criteria , we average that and that will give us some type of uh confidence in our prototype . And uh the criteria {gap}based on Real Reactions' kinda goals and policies , marketing strategies , and also those I put together from the user requirements phase . 'Kay . Um if you flip the {disfmarker} {vocalsound} So , those are the criteria .And uh perhaps I could have put 'em a bit better , but you notice a few things that we've totally abandoned , which means {vocalsound} that uh the product will score very badly on some of those points .ProjectManager: {vocalsound}Marketing: {vocalsound} Put it mildly . So we have um true ? One , t Seven , eight , oh . Fourth . Okay , so we have to go through each point . If we imagine it's actually straight , and just give ita a score . So um how well would you say the prototype is uh how well have we realised the dream of being able to stop remotes from from being lost , or to be able to find them once they are lost . I mean , uh is thehoming thing still {disfmarker} the locator , is that still {disfmarker}User Interface: Yeah , that's still part of the design .Marketing: Sure . And Adam , we can keep that in ?Project Manager: Yeah , I believe so . So Imean I don't think anybody could actually stop a remote being lost ,Marketing: Okay .Project Manager: 'cause that would mean doing something about the human element ,Marketing: {vocalsound} Sure .ProjectManager: but I'd like to think that we've done something about finding the damn thing once we have .Marketing: TUser Interface: Mm . Mm . And making it a bright colour helpsMarketing: Sure .User Interface: with the{disfmarker} personally I would have gone for purple {gap} . {vocalsound}Project Manager: {vocalsound}Marketing: Mm . Bright colour . So we still have that noise thing , yeah ?User Interface: Mm-hmm .Marketing:Os on a scale of one to seven , how would you guys rate it for finding {gap} finding it once it's lost ?User Interface: I'd say number one .Marketing: Number one ?Industrial Designer: One . Yeah .{vocalsound}Marketing: Okay . Number number one for the first criteria .User Interface: I think w if it was just the sounder then th {gap} I mean something I've found with uh w w with say tr trying to find uh acordless phone or a m mobile , you can hear it , but you can't quite pin it dow pin down where it is .Marketing: Yeah you can tell what room the mobile is {disfmarker}User Interface: BuIndustrial Designer: What about{disfmarker} what if the the volume on the T_V_'s turned up massively and uh you just wanna turn down the volume {gap} can't find remote . Suppose you have to go to the T_V_ and do it manually . Mm .Marketing:Yeah .User Interface: Yeah .Project Manager: Mm . UmMarketing: Yeah .Industrial Designer: Like y you wouldn't hear the speaker {gap} .Marketing: Mm-hmm .Project Manager: just before we go through all of thesteps here , um well what we'll do isMarketing: You wanna say something ?Project Manager: um if we can look at the criteria you're gonna evaluate , and then we'll come back to the product evaluation if that's alright.Marketing: That's fine .Project Manager: Yeah , is that {disfmarker}Marketing: Oh that's that's fine .Project Manager: Um so is there anything here that you that you wanted to cover as in the criteria that you'vecovered ? And then we'll come back pretty much promptly to this .Marketing: What do you mean cr is there anything I wanna {disfmarker}Project Manager: I is there any of these criteria that need any explaining ? Oris there anything that yous thought tha really would stand out compared to the others ?Marketing: Um , a few . {vocalsound} Something I neglected from my initial research is that Real Reactions has a a goal strategythat all of the products be inspired by material fashion , and clothing fashion . That is why fruit and veg being popular in the home and in clothing was important and they want all their products to be somehow inspiredby current trends in fashion . So they say we put the fashion in electronics , well they really mean it they they're very big on fashion ,Project Manager: Okay .Marketing: so . That's this bit right here . And uh this bit isthis one easy to use for visitors or for anybody ? I guess it's just the same as saying easy to use interface , so it's kinda condensed into one . And we can come back to it , you said .Project Manager: Okay .Marketing: So.Project Manager: No and which we will do very very shortly . Um . Okay . Slight problem we had was that we have an amazing four Euros over budget for what we were hoping to do . Um most of it stems from the useof the L_C_D_ which I think in the end accounted for about half of our expenditure because of course we required a chip as well . Um the only way to get this down was either to ditch the a L_C_D_ , at which pointwe've removed a large part of how we were gonna interface , {gap} require more buttons , etcetera . Or what we did was that we um we as in I as I was quickly going over it was altering the actual structure . Umchanging it to plastic and a solid unit with a single curve design would allow us to come back into the um proposed costs and we're just scraping it in , we've got point two of a Euro left over there . So we're justmanaging it really . Even then as well , um there was no criteria technically defined for a joystick so I've used what I think's appropriate . With any luck that won't mean that we've incurred more cost than we canactually afford to . It blows a lot of our really good ideas kind of slightly to one side , for example the possibility of having a U_S_B_ connection is definitely not viable now . Um .Marketing: Different languages ?ProjectManager: That should still be viable . We've got an advanced chip , we've got the use of the L_C_D_ . So being able to communicate in multiple languages is still very much a possibility .Marketing: Yeah .{vocalsound}Project Manager: Um but what's something we need to decide on is how we're gonna go from here . {vocalsound} We do need to try and come up with an idea which could be continued with other people ifneed be . Um . We can I can bring the excel up sheet up and uh show you if you wish um . I really think as m much as it pains me is that we might have to go with plastic and some kind of solid design , possiblymeaning that the L_C_D_ wouldn't be in this perfect place . It might be s stuck like slightly between what would be good for left handed and what would be good for a right handed person .User Interface: Mm-hmm Isuppose o one thing that could be done is h {vocalsound} is have it um circular and have it s {vocalsound} so that the uh the pink {gap} actually goes a bit over the pinkie finger . Mm .Project Manager: Okay.Marketing: Mm .User Interface: So that uh thProject Manager: It very much is about making concessions , unfortunately . Um .User Interface: Mm .Marketing: Do you have any data on how much um different printscost ? I mean can you get the entire thing printed with a design um ?Project Manager: Um b b b da is {disfmarker} you mean on the plastic , or ?Marketing: {gap} .Project Manager: Let's have a look . You now have asmuch information as I do . {vocalsound} Um .Marketing: Yeah , yeah .Project Manager: So as you can see here , for example , the battery really not very little choice in that one . We've gone for one of the cheaperoptions as well . Unfortunately we require the advanced chip if we're gonna do what we're needing to . I've said single curved . We really do need it to be that way for the ergonomics of it . Um plastic for some reasonincurs no cost , which I've had to very much make advantage of , despite the fact that rubber's only got a value of two Euros per unit . Problem comes here as you can see in the interface . Um if I've read this thingcorrectly , then we can save point five of a Euro here in that it's not per push button . That might make sense , because then a numeric keypad would come in at um what , four point five Euros , which is an awful lot ,so that could well be wrong . Even if we save point five there , it would just mean that we're most likely placing it in actually just gaining a colour for the unit , which has had to be put to one side . As you can see , theuse of an L_C_ display um advanced chip and what would determine the scroll wheel here as well because it's an integrated scroll scroll wheel push button that wasn't quite what I think they had in mind with a joystick.Marketing: Why would why would that be more expensive than an individual push button and scroll wheel together ? That's quite significantly expensive .Project Manager: I {disfmarker} that's something you'll have totake up with the bean counters . UmMarketing: {gap} .Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}User Interface: Mm . {gap} yeah .Project Manager: as you can see I mean that's taken up well over half of the price .Marketing:Yeah .Project Manager: So um I'm very much open to suggestions of where we go , but because we need to shed what was four Euros off of the um the price of for what we really desired , this one comes in under priceas you can see , but this was the one that sacrificed the material for the case and for the actual case design .Marketing: We don't even have uh speakers here . The {disfmarker} like uh we uh {disfmarker} what aboutspeakers and transmitters and stuff like that ? Have we factored that in ?Industrial Designer: Mm .Project Manager: Uh no , we haven't , not {disfmarker}Marketing: Transmitter , receiver , speakers . Plus the extradevice itself that's gonna be on a T_V_ .Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}Marketing: Is that gonna be a button , or {disfmarker}Project Manager: That'll {gap} it literally would just be a button .Marketing: Yeah.Project Manager: We might have to {disfmarker}Industrial Designer: That's too expensive {gap} isn't it ?Project Manager: It looks like almost nothing {disfmarker} Mm . Oh good call , I missed that .Marketing: I Imean it's not on here , but um .Project Manager: {gap} that's a very valid point .Marketing: Did they s do we have to use an advanced chip for the L_C_D_ ?Industrial Designer: Yeah .Marketing: Okay . Well that's{disfmarker} yeah .Project Manager: So if we're gonna go with the L_C_ display , then that's {disfmarker}Marketing: What's a hand dyna dynamo ? You have to wind it up ?Project Manager: I believe so , yeah.Marketing: {vocalsound}Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}Project Manager: That would probably not be in keeping with the um the fashion statement and such ,Marketing: {vocalsound} Technology . Yeah .IndustrialDesigner: Fashion .Project Manager: yeah .Marketing: Okay .Industrial Designer: So basically the only new thing is the L_C_D_ on the remote now .Project Manager: Being manipulated by the joystick , yeah .IndustrialDesigner: Oh , and joystick , yeah .Project Manager: Which I'm defining as scroll wheel . Um .Marketing: And we couldn't replace the joystick , right ? Because we would need four extra buttons to replace it , up downleft and right , and that would be more expensive than a {disfmarker} but is a scroll wheel not just back and forward ?User Interface: Mm .Project Manager: Yeah it's just because there was no actual definition for whata joystick might be , that that's what I've labelled it for the purposes of this evaluation .Industrial Designer: So {disfmarker} The L_C_D_ basically is the big selling point ofProject Manager: If we remove the L_C_display , we could save ourselvesIndustrial Designer: the remote .Project Manager: a fair amount . Which you could {vocalsound} {disfmarker}Industrial Designer: But that's what makes it uh original though ,UserInterface: Mm . I think {gap} if we remove the the L_C_ display then there was absolutely no point to any of these meetingsMarketing: Yeah . {vocalsound}Industrial Designer: isn't it ?User Interface: and we just{gap} we could just put our branding on any other remote control .Marketing: Yeah . Yeah . Um . Uh kProject Manager: It's a shame . We should possibly have {disfmarker} If we could've increased the price wecould've manufactured that and we could've got something far closer to what we were hoping to .Marketing: Does this does this bear in mind that {disfmarker} I mean it's a bit ridiculous that they're gonna charge uswhat is it , like this much money for three million if we're gonna buy three million components ,Project Manager: Again , you'll have to argue with the accountants on that one .Marketing: you know .Project Manager:Um but for the purposes of this meeting , I'm {disfmarker} we're gonna have to stick with these figures .Marketing: Mm . 'Kay .Project Manager: So , I would say that it would seem like the general opinion is we'regonna keep the L_C_ display 'cause it's about what really separates us , {vocalsound} despite the cost it's gonna incur . UmMarketing: I think so .Project Manager: are people maybe not happy with , but are willing togo ahead with this in going for a plastic solid case , to keep the L_C_D_ ?User Interface: Mm-hmm . Um yeah {gap} I mean one thing , I mean ho uh how much extra would it be to to keep I mean {vocalsound} keepthe um the articulation ?Project Manager: It's hard to tell . Um I would say that you're at least gonna take double curved ,User Interface: This is what I'm wondering .Project Manager: and even then I'm not quite sure ifthat's incorporating the idea of articulation .User Interface: OhMarketing: Yeah .User Interface: no , I think I I it d that it needn't require it to be double curved .Industrial Designer: It can be s yeah , it can still be singlecurved ,User Interface: It's uh it's just {vocalsound} it's just {vocalsound} it's just that the case would come in t {vocalsound} would be made in two parts and then joined together with an articulation .IndustrialDesigner: but {disfmarker}Project Manager: Single curved with articulation ?Industrial Designer: You just {gap} .Marketing: Could we could we not get rid of the curvy the curvous the curvaceousness and focus on themenu being the best interface ? 'Cause like we {disfmarker} do we have re restrictions on software ?Industrial Designer: That's what we need for the joystick I think though .User Interface: Mm . Yeah , ImeanMarketing: Oh but there has to be {disfmarker}User Interface: and {vocalsound} I mean the uh I mean if you look uh if you look closer at the uh at the prototype here , the lines here along the grip are actuallyquite straight . Um I mean {gap} yeah ,Project Manager: {vocalsound} But the curves all o over {gap} hand ,User Interface: on the {gap} on the L_C_D_ I mean although we've done it with a curve itProject Manager:is it ?User Interface: could just as easily be done um without curves . The curve that's really needed is up here ,Marketing: {gap} joystick .User Interface: to put uh to keep the joystick in a good ergonomic position forit to have it rest on the top of the hand .Marketing: Okay . Sure . Okay , my bad .Project Manager: We wouldn't actually save a lot by reducing it anyway , so I mean for the purposes of this meeting maybe we can statethat single curve still allows articulation .User Interface: Mm .Project Manager: Um unless we hear otherwise we could go ahead with that proposal .Marketing: So I think the product is not gonna perform so well for mycriteria .Project Manager: Which is what we can get onto now . As long as {disfmarker} so are we gonna say {disfmarker} {gap} w we have to keep an eye on the time as well , but we're gonna say um single curveddesign {vocalsound} {disfmarker}Marketing: Oh , wait a minute . Sample speaker ? What is a sample speaker ? Is that somewhat similar to what we want ?Project Manager: It could well be ,User Interface: MmnoProject Manager: but at a cost of {disfmarker}User Interface: that's that voice response thing that we got the email about .Industrial Designer: Costs four .Marketing: Yeah .User Interface: But I thought it was justcompletely pointless .Marketing: You got a email about voice response ?User Interface: Yeah .Marketing: I did not ,User Interface: Alright .Marketing: so .User Interface: B i basically it was {gap} saying that our labshad come up with a chip that you could , you know , say hello to , and it would say hello back in a friendly female voice {gap} . {vocalsound}Project Manager: Okay , yeah we'll definitely won't go with that one


The Chair (Hon. Anthony Rota (NipissingTimiskaming, Lib.)): I call this meeting to order. Welcome to the 14thmeeting of the House of Commons Special Committee on the COVID-19 Pandemic.  This will be a hybridmeeting. Some members will be participating via video conference and some will be participating in person. In order to ensure that those joining the meeting via video conference can be seen and heard by those in thechamber, two screens have been set up on either side of the Speaker's chair, and members in the chamber can listen to the floor audio or to interpretation using their earpiece at their desk. Before speaking, please waituntil I recognize you by name, and please direct your remarks through the chair. For those joining via video conference, I would like to remind you to leave your mike on mute when you are not speaking. Also, pleasenote that if you want to speak in English, you should be on the English channel. If you want to speak French, you should be on the French channel. Should you wish to alternate between the two languages, you shouldchange the channel to the language that you are speaking each time you switch languages. Should members participating by video conference need to request the floor outside their designated speaking times, theyshould activate their mic and state that they have a point of order. Those in the Chamber can rise in the usual way. Please note that today's proceedings will be televised in the same way as a typical sitting of the House.We'll now proceed to ministerial announcements. I understand that there are none. Now we'll proceed to the tabling of documents. Mr.LeBlanc has a document he wants to table. Go ahead, Mr.LeBlanc.Hon. DominicLeBlanc: Mr. Chair, I have the honour to table, in both official languages, a report entitled "Democracy Matters, Debates Count: A report on the 2019 Leaders' Debates Commission and the future of debates in Canada.Mr. Chair, on behalf of all of us, I want to thank the Right Honourable David Johnston for his continued service.The Chair: Good. We'll now proceed to the presenting of petitions, for a period not exceeding 15 minutes. Iwould like to remind members that any petition presented during a meeting of the special committee must have already been certified by the clerk of petitions. For members participating in person, we ask that youplease come to the front and drop off your certificate at the table once the petition has been presented. In presenting petitions, the first presenter today is Mr. Genuis.Mr. Garnett Genuis (Sherwood ParkFortSaskatchewan, CPC): Thank you, Mr. Chair. I'm pleased to be presenting a petition in support of Bill S-204. This is a bill in the Senate, put forward by Senator Salma Ataullahjan. It would make it a criminal offence for aperson to go abroad and receive an organ for which there has not been consent by the donor. It also creates a mechanism by which someone could be deemed inadmissible to Canada if they were involved in organharvesting and trafficking. This bill is designed to confront and address the horrific practice by which, in certain casesfor instance, inside Chinaminority communities or dissidents may be targeted and have their organsremoved as they're killed and used for transplantation. Petitioners are supportive of Bill S-204, and they want to see it passed as soon as possible.The Chair: Our next petition will go to Mr. Viersen.Mr. Arnold Viersen(Peace RiverWestlock, CPC): Mr. Chair, I am presenting a petition today signed by Canadians who are concerned that Bill C-7 removes safeguards from the current euthanasia regime, including the mandatory 10-daywaiting period. Mr. Chair, these people who are signing this petition would like to see an improvement in assisted living, not assisted dying.The Chair: We'll now go to Ms. Zahid.Mrs. Salma Zahid (Scarborough Centre,Lib.): Thank you, Mr. Chair. I would like to present an e-petition signed by over 40 people. It asks that the Government of Canada recognize the Republic of Somaliland as an autonomous state that may result in foreigninvestments, direct access of development aid, foreign aid for disaster relief and infrastructure development investment loans.The Chair: Now we'll proceed to Statements by Members for a period not exceeding 15minutes. Each statement will be for a maximum of one minute. I remind members that if they exceed that time limit, they will be interrupted.  Our first statement goes to Monsieur El-Khoury.Mr. Fayal El-Khoury(LavalLes les, Lib.): Mr.Chair, I thank the government for the way it has managed this global crisis and its impact on Canadians. It has acted in a robust, rapid and very effective way. Our Prime Minister has beenawarded the medal of honour, courage and humanity worldwide. Canada is one of the few countries that has acted in the best interests of its citizens and maintained their dignity in these uncertain times. Whileaddressing Canadians, our right honourable Prime Minister showed us leadership, the importance of transparency, and integrity. He kept us united. His top priority was saving lives, along with finding realistic solutionsregarding the economic impact on our daily life. Because of his outstanding leadership, we're admired across the world, which is another distinguished privilege of being Canadian. Thank you, Mr. Chair.The Chair: We'llnow go to Mr. Epp.Mr. Dave Epp (Chatham-KentLeamington, CPC): COVID-19 has emptied food banks across Canada, even in an agricultural community like Chatham-Kent, so Wes Thompson and James Rasmussen,along with Alysson Storey, Randi Bokor, Maureen Geddes, Chris and Terry Johnston, Jason King, Fannie Vavoulis and Brent Wilken, grew an idea into the community's largest-ever food drive. Project manager MornaMcDonald estimates that over 3,000 volunteers ended up helping in the May 16 Miracle. Residents put non-perishable foodstuffs on their doorsteps, with drop-off centres organized for rural areas. Volunteer groupstravelled predetermined routes while maintaining physical distancing. The community collected an amazing 678,000 pounds of food. They accidentally exceeded by over 20% the record in the Guinness World Recordsbook for collected food in a single day. Chatham-Kent has restocked their food banks and reaffirmed their community pride. It's an honour to represent such a community.The Chair: We'll now go to Mr. Sarai. We havea point of order from Mr. d'Entremont.Mr. Chris d'Entremont (West Nova, CPC): As much as I like seeing my friends on the big screens, there are no big screens yet, so we don't know who's on and who's not on. I waswondering if there was going to be a TV coming up soon here, Mr. Chair.The Chair: There is a technical issue, and it is being worked on. We're working on it as we go through. The other alternative is that we suspenduntil we fix it. If it's okay, we'll just continue. I think we can all hear the members who are speaking. This is one of the realities of a virtual or hybrid system. Our next statement will go to Mr. Sarai.Mr. Randeep Sarai(Surrey Centre, Lib.): Thank you, Mr. Chair, and mabuhay to all the Filipino Canadians across this country. In June across Canada we recognize Filipino Heritage Month to raise awareness and celebrate the Filipinocommunity. Here in Surrey Centre, and across Canada, the Filipino community makes important contributions to our cities and has helped shape Canada into the vibrant multicultural society that we all know and lovetoday. Now more than ever, during these challenging times we must come together as Canadians to celebrate the rich heritage and history of our Filipino neighbours. Throughout June, please join me in celebrating ourfellow citizens of Filipino descent by recognizing all the incredible ways in which they have contributed to making Canada a better place for all of us. Happy Filipino Heritage Month. Thank you, Mr. Chair.The Chair:Mr.Perron.Mr. Yves Perron (BerthierMaskinong, BQ): Good afternoon, Mr.Chair. Today is World Milk Day, and I would like to recognize the exceptional work and dedication shown by everyone in the industry. Theyensure we have a nutritious, high quality product every day. Let's take part in the local consumption movement and rediscover the exceptional products of our dairy producers and processors. Enjoy the yogurts, cheesesand other products because it's true that milk is good. I would also like to thank BrunoLetendre, outgoing chair of the Producteurs de lait du Qubec, and I congratulate the new chair, DanielGobeil. The dairy industry hasbeen sacrificed several times in trade agreements. The government's broken promises are piling up. The payment of compensation is still uncertain. Action must be taken. The first step must be the direct allocation ofimport quotas to processors, and the second must be the full payment of the promised compensation. We demand a formal commitment from the government.The Chair: We'll now continue with Mr.Iacono.Mr. AngeloIacono (Alfred-Pellan, Lib.): Mr.Chair, June is Italian Heritage Month. The situation is special this year, since Italy has been hard hit by COVID-19, with more than 30,000deaths. Like me, many Italian Canadians stillhave family and friends in Italy, and the news has sometimes been very difficult to take, yet that has not detracted from the great co-operation that exists between Canada and Italy.  Today I would like to highlight thesolidariet italiana in our community. During the pandemic, Canadians of Italian descent have been united to support anziani, our famiglie and our amici in Italy by participating in the fundraising campaign COVID-19AiutiAMO lItalia to support the Italian Red Cross response activities. I send a special salute to to my cugino Giuseppe, who is still on the road to recovery from COVID-19. The Chair: We'll continue with Mr. Kram.Mr.Michael Kram (ReginaWascana, CPC): Mr. Chair, I would like to acknowledge all of the organizations in Saskatchewan and across Canada that are working hard to help small businesses adapt to the challenges of thecurrent pandemic. In particular, I would like to thank the Regina Downtown Business Improvement District, or RDBID. As soon as the pandemic hit, RDBID launched a daily electronic newsletter to keep their membersinformed of support programs, local initiatives and local success stories. They have used their social media channels on a daily basis to promote takeout and delivery services, online and curbside services offered byrestaurants and retailers. They have also launched a number of their own initiatives to help businesses access e-commerce. Through persistent communication and a lot of long hours, RDBID has helped businesses indowntown Regina to weather the storm. Because of their hard work, downtown Regina will come through this pandemic better than ever.The Chair: Mr.Lauzon now has the floor.Mr. Stphane Lauzon (ArgenteuilLaPetite-Nation, Lib.): Mr.Chair, high-speed Internet will be to the 21stcentury what electricity was to the 20th: an essential service. We are currently experiencing a drastic change in our morals, our consumption patternsand our socialization habits. We are turning to the Internet to read the news, contact our friends and complete our purchases. Isolation associated with COVID-19 has only accelerated this trend. Unfortunately, not allregions of Canada have reliable, affordable, high-speed access. I would like to reassure the citizens of my riding about the efforts that we are making as a government, but also about the work I've been doing as amember of Parliament since2015 to connect the 41municipalities of ArgenteuilLa Petite-Nation. Aside from this essential service, our students, seniors, entrepreneurs and telework are very important to the regions. Wehave heard you, and I will continue to fight for you, so that you can have access to affordable high-speed Internet.The Chair: We'll now go on to Mr. MacKinnon.Mr. Steven MacKinnon (Gatineau, Lib.): Mr. Chair, a fewdays ago, we all watched with horror and outrage the death of an unarmed black man at the hands of the police in Minneapolis. For many of us, these images may seem shocking, but it's an all too familiar tale tomillions of black people not only in the United States but also here in Canada, in my city of Gatineau and around the world, who must at times live with the scourge of anti-black racism.  Mr.Chair, I can't know what it'slike to be black in our society. What I do know, however, is that you and I, and everyone in this House, have the power and the responsibility to make our country more just. Let us all recommit ourselves to thatendeavour. Black Canadians and all those who have to endure racism and discrimination are watching us, and they expect more from us.The Chair: Mr. Duncan is next.Mr. Eric Duncan (StormontDundasSouth Glengarry,CPC): Without a doubt, these past few months have been challenging, to say the least, from both a health and economic perspective, but, Mr. Chair, I have to say how proud I am of my community ofStormontDundasSouth Glengarry. We continue to successfully flatten the curve in our region and, just as importantly, we are making sure that we are here for each other, whether it is the Cornwall Optimists' GoFeedMecampaign, the Iroquois-Matilda Lions Club delivering groceries to those who are quarantined in their households or the local United Way, the Social Development Council or the Carefor seniors support centre co-leadingan effort to deliver 1,500 baskets to seniors in need. There have been many examples of kindness and generosity from our community. I rise today in the House of Commons to say thank you to my constituents and toall Canadians; to our essential front-line workers, our service clubs and our businesses that have stepped up to help out; and to everybody playing their part to get us through this challenge. I couldn't be more proud ofmy community and my residents, and it is an honour to serve as their member of Parliament. Thank you, Mr. Chair.The Chair: We'll now go to Ms. Yip.Ms. Jean Yip (ScarboroughAgincourt, Lib.): Mr. Chair, althoughAsian Heritage Month has just passed, we recognize the tremendous effort of all Asian Canadians on the front lines of this pandemic, as health care providers or as essential workers. I want to thank the many Asianorganizations for donating to ScarboroughAgincourt's hospital, long-term care homes and food banks. As a Canadian born and raised in Scarborough, I'm offended by the reports of violence and vandalism targetingAsian-Canadian communities across this country. In budget 2019 we invested $45 million to launch a new anti-racism strategy, which included the establishment of the anti-racism secretariat, because these efforts areunfortunately clearly still needed. As events continue to unfold in the United States, it is important to recognize that we have work to do here as well. Whether it is anti-black or anti-Asian, racism and discrimination ofany kind have no place in Canadafull stop. Now more than ever, we must stand united in diversity.The Chair: We'll now go on to Mr. Bragdon.Mr. Richard Bragdon (TobiqueMactaquac, CPC): Thank you, Mr. Chair. Overthe last few months, Canadians throughout New Brunswick and across the country have stepped up to support their community. Health care workers, truckers, farmers, business owners, pharmacists, grocery storestaff, faith-based and non-profit organizations and so many others have all answered the call to do their part. Today, Mr. Chair, I would like to specifically highlight the work of those who support and take care of ourseniors, who are among some of our most at-risk citizens. It has been said that the character of a nation and its people is revealed most in how they treat their most vulnerable. Our seniors have made immensecontributions to our society. Many have put their lives on the line to protect Canada and the democratic freedoms we enjoy as Canadians. They have worked hard and made many sacrifices throughout their lives tomake Canada the greatest nation on earth. Taking care of our seniors is the right thing to do. I want to take this opportunity to thank all those who are supporting and caring for our seniors. Whether they be long-termcare staff, personal care workers, health care professionals, family members or volunteers, thank you for all you are doing in support of our seniors. Together we shall overcome.The Chair: We'll now go to Ms. Shin.Ms.Nelly Shin (Port MoodyCoquitlam, CPC): Thank you, Mr. Chair. Although we've come to the end of Asian Heritage Month, I'd like to acknowledge some unsung Chinese Canadian heroes who shed their blood as patriotsfor our nation. I commemorate the 6,500 Chinese Canadians of the 9,000 railway workers who helped build and unite Canada. I pay respect to the many Chinese Canadians who died while building the CP Railway on themost dangerous terrains in the B.C. segment. I honour the Chinese Canadians who served and died in World War II. Sadly, Asian communities in Canada face racist incidents today. No one should be afraid of walking intheir own neighbourhood. Adult children should not have to call their elderly parents to tell them to stay home because they might be attacked by racists. There's no justification for racial slurs, physical violence orvandalism against any individual or community. I will continue to work together with other elected officials, the police and the RCMP to mitigate these issues toward justice and restoration.The Chair: We'll go on to Mr.Angus. Mr. Angus, please proceed.Mr. Charlie Angus (TimminsJames Bay, NDP): Ten years ago today, Cree youth leader Shannen Koostachin was killed in a horrific car accident. She was only 15 years old, yet in hershort life she became the voice of a generation of first nation youth who were no longer willing to put up with systemic discrimination. Shannen had never seen a real school. Children in Attawapiskat were beingeducated in squalid conditions. Her fight for their dignity and rights launched the largest youth-driven civil rights movement in Canadian history. At 14 she was nominated for the International Children's Peace Prize.Shannen never lived to see the school that was built in her community, but her work carries on through the Shannen's Dream movement. She is a role model for youth activists across this country. A movie, two booksand a statue are dedicated to her. She's been recognized as one of the 150 most influential women in Canadian history. I had the honour to know Shannen. In fact, I think of her every single day. She truly did comefrom the angels, and one day she returned.The Chair: Mr.Barsalou-Duval, you now have the floor.Mr. Xavier Barsalou-Duval (Pierre-BoucherLes PatriotesVerchres, BQ): Mr.Chair, for months now, thousands ofconsumers who need money to pay their bills have been fighting against airlines and the government to have their rights respected: three class action suits, a unanimous motion by the National Assembly and over30,000signatures on a petition calling for reimbursement for cancelled flights. It isn't a whim to enforce the law. Air Canada, which confiscated $2.6billion from its customers, received more than $800million fromOttawa without any conditions. Yet, the company has a year's worth of cash in reserve, $6billion in its coffers, and is in the process of raising more than $1.4billion in the financial markets. Air Canada has the means toreimburse citizens. It has the money it needs. We're tired of the Minister of Transport's crocodile tears. I consulted the bankruptcy directory this morning and didn't see any airlines listed. Now is the time to work for thepeople.The Chair: Mr.Rayes now has the floor.Mr. Alain Rayes (RichmondArthabaska, CPC): Mr.Chair, I want to pay tribute to a great man who represented the public here, in the House, for close to 15years:MichelGauthier. Michel, in life, we meet a lot of people, but some of them leave their mark on us forever. From the first time I spoke with you two years ago, I immediately understood that I was talking with a man withheart, a passionate man, a man who had Quebec imprinted on his heart. Because of your decision to join the Conservative Party of Canada, I got to know you personally, and I am most grateful. I will remember ourdiscussions on the best ways to communicate our Conservative vision to Quebeckers. I will remember our heated discussions on Quebec-Canada relations. I will remember all the passion and energy you had in thelead-up to a speech to our supporters. Michel, Canadians, Quebeckers and I will remember you forever, the great man you were, the outstanding speaker, a formidable parliamentarian, with integrity, passion,commitment and love for Quebec. I offer my sincere condolences to Anne, and to your family and friends. Rest in peace.The Chair: Mr.Dubourg, you now have the floor.Mr. Emmanuel Dubourg (Bourassa, Lib.):Mr.Chair, the murder of GeorgeFloyd in Minneapolis resonated strongly within black communities in Canada and also in the heart of Montreal North. At a time of pandemic uncertainty when members of our community


Sian Thomas: Bore da. Unfortunately, the Chair, Lynne Neagle, is unable to attend today's meeting. Therefore, in accordance with Standing Order 17.22, I call for nominations for a temporary Chair, for the duration ofthe meeting.Julie Morgan AM: I nominate John Griffiths.Sian Thomas: Any further nominations? I therefore declare that John Griffiths has been appointed temporary Chair, and I invite him to chair for the duration oftoday's meeting.John Griffiths AM: Thank you very much. I thank the Members for that. Welcome, everyone, to this meeting of the Children, Young People and Education Committee. The first item on our agenda todayis apologies, substitutions, declarations of interest. Obviously, Lynne Neagle isn't able to be with us today. We haven't received any other apologies. Are there any declarations of interest? No. We will move on then toitem 2 on our agenda, the continuation of our inquiry into targeted funding to improve educational outcomes, and evidence session 8. And I'm very pleased to welcome Estyn here this morning to give evidence to thecommittee. Would you like to introduce yourselves for the record, please?Meilyr Rowlands: Meilyr Rowlands, chief inspector.Claire Morgan: Claire Morgan, strategic director.Simon Brown: Simon Brown, strategicdirector.John Griffiths AM: Okay. Thank you. And welcome again. If it's okay, we'll move straight into questions—we have quite a number of questions to get through this morning. Firstly, Llyr.Llyr Gruffydd AM: Thankyou, Chair, and good morning. I just want to start by asking about your perception of how schools are using the pupil development grant funding, and to what extent they are genuinely targeting that funding exclusivelytowards children eligible for free school meals.Meilyr Rowlands: Thank you for the question. This grant has been targeted far better by now than it was originally. Estyn has made several reports regarding theeffectiveness of the grant, and, really, going back to before this specific grant, to a similar grant, called RAISE. At the start of this grant, the funding was often spent on tackling underachievement, rather than dealingwith the underachievement of children who are eligible for free school meals specifically. But, over a period of time, we have seen that it is targeted much better by now. That's not to say that the targeting is workingperfectly still, and I think that we are seeing examples where the targeting isn't going just to children who receive free school meals. Schools sometimes interpret poverty in a slightly wider way than that. In terms ofwhat schools are doing with the grant, we have given evidence to you of the kinds of things that they are doing. They are tracking progress of pupils, they are trying to improve attendance, they are trying to work withfamilies and the community in general, they're doing work specifically to improve how children are doing in exams, in key stage 4, specifically—a lot of funding is being spent on that—improving the confidence ofstudents, taking students on extra-curricular activities, improving literacy and numeracy. Those are the kinds of activities they're being used for.Llyr Gruffydd AM: Because the research by Ipsos MORI and the WalesInstitute of Social and Economic Research, Data and Methods has shown that there is some kind of blurring—I think that's the term that they use—in terms of who is eligible. But you are relatively comfortable with thefact that there is sufficient targeting happening. You referred to the fact that it is used, perhaps, to reach a slightly wider cohort than just those who are eligible for free school meals, but you do feel that that balance,from your experience, is acceptable.Meilyr Rowlands: Yes, certainly, it has improved a great deal. When I was looking at this initially, the targeting wasn’t happening at all. It was being spent on children who wereunderachieving, and one of the things that we did notice in the first report was that much more funding was being spent on boys than girls. And, of course, that raised the question immediately that it wasn't being spentthen on children who are eligible for free school meals, because those numbers are equal. So, it wasn’t, but it has improved. There is a discussion about who exactly should have it and whether free school meals is thebest definition. So, I think that schools are perhaps not following that exactly, but within the spirit of the grant, I think I’m fairly comfortable. There is a specific question—I don’t know if you are going to askthis—regarding more able and talented pupils.Llyr Gruffydd AM: That's where I was going next.Meilyr Rowlands: So, if there is a cohort of pupils who are missing out on this, they are the more able and talented pupilswho receive free school meals. There are a number of reasons for this, I think. One of them is that there’s still some feeling that less able children should be receiving this grant, children who are underachieving.Schools don’t always identify underachievement of those more able children. It seems that they are doing okay, but if they were given more support, they would do even better.Llyr Gruffydd AM: So, is it a lack ofawareness of the nature of the grant, and that the individual has to be targeted rather than just those who are underachieving? Is that the problem? Or is it the regime that focuses on exam results and the need to drawthose pupils who are underachieving up, rather than incentivising those who are achieving to achieve better?Meilyr Rowlands: A bit of both, I'd say. And the third factor is identifying children who are more able. I thinkthat we have a bit of work to do in that regard. I was in a conference for headteachers last week, where there was new data being discussed, and that data showed the progress of children from a certain point, year 6tests. I think that kind of data will be very useful, because what that data can do is help secondary schools to identify more able children and that they are underachieving. Even though they're doing quite well, that kindof value-added data is very useful. So, I think that that will help as well.Llyr Gruffydd AM: Thank you.John Griffiths AM: Mark, did you want to pursue these matters further?Mark Reckless AM: Yes. I just wanted to askabout the more able and talented stream. It was good to read in your report an increased emphasis on this and to see your awareness of its importance in the PDG as well. Can I just ask—? Would you look at one arearegarding schools' engagement with the Seren network, particularly for the more able and talented, and what more Estyn can do through its inspection criteria and otherwise to encourage this from schools?MeilyrRowlands: Well, I think Estyn has always been very strongly focused on improving the performance of more able pupils. For example, in last year's annual report I raised it, and a lot of the debate around this now, Ithink, was generated by some of the things I've said in previous annual reports. We gave a lot of evidence to the—. Paul Flynn, I think, did the—no, who did the report? Paul Murphy did the report. So, we gave evidenceto that. And on Seren, I'm particularly proud that my alma mater, Jesus College, is a very strong supporter of the Seren work. So, I'm personally quite interested in the work of Seren. And we look at the performance ofmore able pupils in all our inspections. It's a particular part of our inspection framework—looking at the relative performance of different groups. So, we look at the different performance of boys and girls, free schoolmeals and non-free school meals, ethnic minorities, but we also look at the performance of more able pupils in particular, and we question schools about how they provide for the more able pupils, and we've referred toSeren in several of our inspection reports.Mark Reckless AM: And where schools work particularly hard to engage with Seren and take up opportunities from that and push as many pupils as appropriate to work withthat, is that something that you would recognise within your inspection reports? And, on the other side, where schools don't do that, is that something you would pull them up on?Meilyr Rowlands: Yes, we've done that.We've done it in several reports.Claire Morgan: Throughout our inspections, we are looking for best practice, because part of our strategy is always to identify where there are weaknesses, but actually to point schools inthe direction of where they can find a solution. So, capturing different approaches to more able and talented is part of the role of inspection.Mark Reckless AM: Thank you.Llyr Gruffydd AM: Just briefly, you touchedearlier on using the measure of those who are eligible for free school meals as a way to identify children from disadvantaged backgrounds so that you can target this funding. Varied evidence has been given to us onthis. Do you have an opinion on whether that's the best way?Meilyr Rowlands: It certainly is a good way of doing it. There is a strong correlation between children who underachieve and that measure, so it is a strongmeasure. But, there is scope to discuss how exactly it does work. For example, some people say that if you have received free school meals for a period of time and now you're not receiving them, then perhaps youshould still be receiving the funding for a period of time, for example. So, there are ways of fine-tuning that measure, I think. It's worth considering those approaches.John Griffiths AM: Thanks for that. We move onnow to Michelle.Michelle Brown AM: Thank you. Good morning, everyone. You've reported that the proportion of schools making effective use of the PDG remains around two thirds of secondary and primary schools,meaning that a third are still not using that PDG effectively. Why do you think this is?Meilyr Rowlands: I think that sort of proportion broadly corresponds to the schools that don't have particularly good leadership. Ithink, ultimately, all of these sorts of initiatives come down to strong leadership and effective leadership—that they know how to organise and use those grants effectively. One of the shortcomings that we often identifyis evaluation—that money has been spent on a particular way of using the grant, but it has not been evaluated well. So, I think quite a lot of it is to do with generic leadership skills. But those are some of the specificshortcomings to do with evaluation.Michelle Brown AM: Are there any patterns by region or type of school in that?Meilyr Rowlands: I don't think there's any patterns that we've identified in terms of region.ClaireMorgan: As Meilyr said, it's very strongly linked to leadership capacity.Michelle Brown AM: Okay. Thank you. What are the most effective uses of PDG, from your point of view? Is there something in particular that youthink that schools should be focusing on?Meilyr Rowlands: I think there's a lot of evidence on what constitutes good practice in this area. There's the Welsh Government guidance, there's our guidance, there's a lot ofresearch—the Sutton Trust toolkit—and they're the sorts of things I mentioned earlier. I think that more attention does need to be given to the community-focused element of this work. So, schools do a lot ofthings that they are in control of—the things I mentioned earlier: things like improving attendance, offering extra-curricular activities, literacy and numeracy support, tracking pupils—all those sorts of things. But animportant element of this, I think, is engaging with the learners, but also with parents and the community. I think what we've found is that the most effective schools—the ones that really do make a big difference tothis cohort of students—are the ones that do that most effectively.Claire Morgan: I think that there are different situations in different schools, but in the best schools, they evaluate the barriers to learning for theirparticular children. Often we see that engagement with communities is part of that engagement with families. In Brackla Primary School, in Bridgend, they've got Families at Brackla, and it's a range of activities toengage with families. Families often have had a negative experience of education themselves, and the schools are trying to address some of those concerns. Cefn Hengoed in Swansea, which I'm sure many of you knowabout, have had an extensive strategy for engaging with the community, with the families, and equipping their children to participate in decisions around the curriculum, making them more confident learners. So, it isabout removing the barriers for disadvantaged learners.Michelle Brown AM: Thank you. You've made the comment that secondary schools are focusing too much on key stage 4 and not enough on developing pupils'skills in a sustainable way. Can you expand on that and give us a bit more detail on that, please?Meilyr Rowlands: Yes. I think this is sort of generally accepted now. The latest guidance on the grant now says that 60per cent of it should be spent on key stage 3. I think that acknowledges this general point. But what a lot of schools did with this money was precisely that, to target key stage 4—to have catch-up homework clubs,revision clubs, specifically to get children better GCSE results, and getting C grades, in particular. Of course, that is an important part of your armoury of tools to use, but I think there was too much use of that. Part ofthe problem with that is that it doesn't either develop the long-term transferable skills that those pupils have, or should have, nor does it produce the kinds of skills that the teachers need as well. So, it's kind of a quickwin, a quick-fix solution, while what we feel would be more effective in the long term, and more sustainable in the long term—because if this money goes, then those quick fixes won't be possible—what would be moreeffective in the long term is to improve the curriculum and the pedagogy, the quality of the teaching, the quality of the curriculum, so that children are naturally enthused by what is on offer, that they attend betterbecause they want to be in school, that they want to learn. So, we feel that getting the curriculum right, tailoring the curriculum to the needs of the pupils in that area, and improving teaching, is a more sustainablelong-term solution.Michelle Brown AM: Do you think there's anything in particular driving the focus on the key stage 4?Meilyr Rowlands: Well, again, I think most people would say it is the performance indicators. I thinkthere's a general acknowledgement of that. Again, I said last week—. There was a conference of all the secondary heads in Wales, and that was one of the major discussion points in the conference: how do we get theperformance indicators right so that there are no perverse incentives in it?Michelle Brown AM: To what extent are decisions being made in schools concerning the application of the PDG actually evidence-based? To whatextent are they using research to back up how they're using the PDG or is it effectively just guesswork?Meilyr Rowlands: I think that, of all the areas of school policy, this is the one that's most evidence-based. I thinkthat, generally, schools can do much more about using evidence and research findings, but this particular area is probably the one that schools are strongest at using research in. That's partly because the guidancestrongly suggests that you should do that, but also because there is a lot of easily accessible research evidence available. So, there's a lot of research on this. As I mentioned earlier, the Sutton Trust toolkit is a goodexample where researchers have really tried very hard to simplify all the evidence that exists in a way that schools can use. So, there are little pound signs to show how costly an intervention is and little stars orsomething to show how many months of gain pupils get out of this particular intervention. So, it makes it much easier for schools to make a decision. But I think what's missing is that you can't just take that evidenceas it is, because you have to implement it in your own school, and that then will affect how effective that particular intervention is. Just because it is evaluated by researchers as being generally very effective doesn'tmean that you will necessarily implement it effectively. So, it is therefore important that each school does evaluate. So, there are kind of two sides to using research. There's looking at research, but there's also doingyour own research and evaluating how effectively you have implemented something. I think that's been a weakness.Michelle Brown AM: Thank you.John Griffiths AM: Okay. Hefin David.Hefin David AM: Do you thinkthere's an attendance crisis at key stage 4 for those students eligible for free school meals?Meilyr Rowlands: 'Crisis' is maybe too strong a word, but I think there's been a lot of attention given to attendance, quiterightly. Over a long period of time, I was a member of the national behaviour and attendance review board under Ken Reid about 10 years ago. So, there's been a lot of attention on attendance, and that's veryimportant because attendance has a very strong correlation with outcomes.Hefin David AM: Of those students at key stage 4, 35 per cent of those eligible for free school meals are attending for 95 per cent of the time,whereas it's 60 per cent for their peers. Is the PDG making an impact on that? You've mentioned engagement with the curriculum. What more can be done?Meilyr Rowlands: I think what's happening now is that peopleare targeting their attention on attendance. Attendance has improved in primary and in secondary generally. It has also improved for these cohorts as well, and at a faster rate than the rest of the cohort. So, there havebeen improvements. Nevertheless, I agree with you totally that it is a major, major problem, and that is why schools do use the PDG specifically to improve attendance.Hefin David AM: But you said they've not used itwell enough.Meilyr Rowlands: Did I say that? They are using it, and attendance has improved, and the attendance of this cohort has improved more, but there's still a major, major problem. So, I think there needs to beeven more attention—Hefin David AM: So, what—? I'm looking for specifics. What can be done with the PDG?Meilyr Rowlands: I think, as I said earlier, that these are major social issues. So, I think what can be donethat hasn't been done currently is to give more attention to the community-focused side of schooling. I think the schools that have done well, that have really improved attendance of this particular group of pupils, arethe ones that have taken community relationships very, very seriously and worked with parents.Hefin David AM: Yes, you mentioned working with families when you were answering Llyr. How does that happen,though? What does it look like? If I'm a parent, what does it look like?Meilyr Rowlands: Okay. I'll ask Claire to give you an example. Cefn Hengoed is a good example of a school that has not cracked it but made a lot ofprogress.Claire Morgan: Often, in the best schools, the headteachers consider themselves to be community leaders as well as headteachers, and they often set up arrangements where they engage directly with thefamilies of disadvantaged children or children who are underachieving generally. They try to build very strong relationships with the families so that the school is in a position to either liaise with different agencies or tobring agencies into the school to address some of the issues that are outside school control.Hefin David AM: And where does the PDG come into this, and the use of it?Claire Morgan: This sometimes is used forappointing staff whose role it is to facilitate these arrangements to give one-to-one support to children, to monitor attendance, to visit homes where children are not coming into schools, to try and address what thebarriers are in getting them into classrooms.Hefin David AM: And those lessons you've learned from Cefn Hengoed: how are you going to spread that? How does that get spread?Claire Morgan: Well, we've done it in anumber of ways. Obviously, the first thing we do is the inspection report, and we highlight the practice there. We also have things—. This is an example of our best-practice case studies. We also have conferences aswell, where we invite the headteachers from those schools to come and present to other headteachers. We also tweet, use social media, to try and get the message out there. But there's also—Hefin David AM: This allseems like stuff that's done to teachers. It doesn't seem very engaging.Claire Morgan: Well, it is—. Headteachers tell us that learning about best practice from other headteachers is very, very useful. When we had aconference, and when we looked at leadership and improving schools, Cefn Hengoed, along with a number of other schools, presented, and we had very positive feedback from that. So, it is actually schools learningfrom other schools, and I think the work that the consortia have been doing on school-to-school support as well can contribute to it.Hefin David AM: We're spreading the PDG very thinly now, if we're talking aboutattendance, and then we talk about exclusion as well. Is it possible that it can have an impact on reducing the higher exclusion rates for EFSM students?Claire Morgan: I think it has the potential to. I think all these