Lynne Neagle AM: Okay. Good morning, everyone. Welcome to the Children, Young People and Education Committee. We've received apologies for absence from Janet Finch-Saunders, and also from Dawn Bowden, andI'd like to welcome Huw Irranca-Davies, who is substituting for Dawn Bowden. Can I ask Members if there are any declarations of interest, please? No. Okay. We'll move on, then, to our evidence session for our inquiryon school improvement and raising standards. I'd like to welcome Kirsty Williams AM, Minister for Education, and Steve Davies, director of education. Thank you both for attending and for your detailed paper in advanceof the meeting. We've got a lot of ground to cover, so we'll go straight into questions, if that's okay. If I can just start by asking you: to what extent is the Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development stillinvolved in the Welsh Government's school improvement journey?Kirsty Williams AM: First of all, can I thank the committee for their invitation this morning, and their interest in this particular area? As you will beaware, on coming into office, the director and I agreed to ask the OECD to do a rapid review of the state of Welsh education at the beginning of this Assembly term. They did that, and the feedback from that workinformed the publication and content of the national mission. I was very clear in the national mission that I would invite the OECD back to review our progress against that mission, and that has happened in the tail endof last year, and the OECD will publish their latest report on Welsh education next month now, in March. So, the expectation is that the report will be published on 23 March, and my intention is to make a statement tothe Chamber on 24 March. The nature of that review is part of our ongoing development of self-evaluation. So, we talk a lot about self-evaluation in the school system. Actually, the continuing relationship with OECD isabout self-evaluation of the entirety of the system and Welsh Government. We don't want to accept our own orthodoxy and just be in a bubble where we are constantly listening to ourselves and those people who mightwant to agree with us or tell us what we want to hear. So, the OECD is our best attempt of having some external verification of where we are. That's a risk for Ministers and for Government, because we want them togive an honest evaluation of where we are, but that's a really important tool for me, to ensure that we're constantly testing ourselves. The nature of that review is that the OECD were able to talk to whoever they felt itwas important to talk to, so that included practitioners on the ground, elements of the middle tier, as well as Welsh Government. And I know, Chair—I hope you'll be pleased to hear this—that the reports of thiscommittee have formed parts of their review, looking at how the Senedd itself has contributed to and has held the Government to account. So, as I said, we expect our report to be published towards the end ofMarch.Lynne Neagle AM: Okay, thank you, Minister. Can I ask about the powers under the School Standards and Organisation (Wales) Act 2013, to ask you to tell us about the use of those powers either by WelshGovernment or by local authorities, and how effective you feel that legislation has been?Kirsty Williams AM: Okay. Well, as you'll be aware, local authorities have quite extensive powers of intervention in schools if theyfeel that is necessary. If I'm honest, I think there's a mixed picture, with some local authorities using those powers not on a regular basis, but obviously demonstrating a willingness to use those powers. There are otherlocal authorities who don't seem to have used them. Since that legislation came into being, there have been a number of reasons, because of course a local authority has to give a reason for using those powers ofintervention. They usually focus on standards, but sometimes they focus on a breakdown in governance arrangements, perhaps, or a failure or a breakdown in financial management. So, sometimes the budgetaryissues trigger an intervention power. And the types of interventions that have been used have included, in some cases, appointing additional governors to governing bodies, or suspending a school's delegated budget sothe local authority takes on, then, financial control of that particular school, or sometimes applying to the Welsh Government to entirely replace a governing body and establish an intervention board. So, if I can giveyou an example of where that's been used and has been successful, in Flintshire. They applied to Welsh Government for two interim executive boards, in Sir Richard Gwyn Catholic High School and in Ysgol Trefonnen.They applied to us. Those governing bodies were dissolved. The IEBs were put in place and both of those schools, which had been in special measures, moved quite rapidly, actually, out of special measures. Perhaps themost recent example of this is one that the Chair will know very well in her own constituency of Torfaen, in Cwmbran High School, where Torfaen has intervened in that case. The Welsh Government has not used thosepowers to date. My expectation always is that local authorities should be the first port of call, and I would encourage—and we always encourage—local authorities to take a proactive approach to intervention and to usethose powers. But it's my belief that it is they who are best placed initially to do that.Lynne Neagle AM: Thank you, Minister. Can I ask, then, about the national evaluation and improvement resource and how significanta role that will play in the raising of school standards, and how you feel it's evolved since it was first conceived?Kirsty Williams AM: So, this brings us back to the principle of self-evaluation and something, if we'rehonest, we've not been very good at. If you look at a number of chief inspectors' reports into the Welsh education system, self-evaluation has always been identified as something that is missing or underdeveloped inour system to date, hence, then, the work to establish not a new approach, but a more robust approach to self-evaluation. We've done that in conjunction, again, with the OECD, middle tier and practitioners. It's reallyimportant, throughout the entirety of our reform journey that that's done in co-construction, because we want this resource to be usable in schools. So, it's all very well having a conceptual idea and people outside theclassroom working on it, but if it's of no practical use to a school leadership team, then we won't see the impact. So, it's—. We're in phase 2 at the moment, where we're doing—. So, the initial resource has beendeveloped by the OECD, middle tier and practitioners. We're in the testing phase at the moment and having it evaluated itself, with a view to introducing that resource across the system at the start of the new academicyear, in September 2020. I truly believe that, if we're to make progress in Welsh education, we have to develop the skills within our system to have robust self-evaluation. This resource gives us continuity of approachright the way across Wales. So, it's not left to an individual school to come up with a system; it's right the way across the system. My hope would be that those principles could then be applied to local educationauthorities, to regional school improvement services and Welsh Government as part of a whole-system approach to self-evaluation. I don't know if there's anything more you want to add, Steve.Steve Davies: Just toadd that the other critical partners are Estyn themselves.Kirsty Williams AM: Oh, yes, sorry.Steve Davies: So, they have played a critical role and, as we know, as the Minister has said in the past, she may introducepolicy and practice, but if Estyn are part of it then schools, usually, because they recognise that it will be part of the inspection process—it gives it greater push and support around it. So, they've been key players withinit.Kirsty Williams AM: And I think, if I just say as well, that the external perception of what that's about is really important. It's not a test of school readiness for reform, it is a genuine attempt for a school to evaluatetheir strengths, their weaknesses and where they need to go next. It's not an Estyn checklist. And because of the word 'toolkit'—the feedback was that it gave the impression of a checklist, 'Just do this and check list'.So, we're actually going to change the name of that resource. So, it'll be called the national evaluation and improvement resource, rather than the toolkit, because, as I said, the feedback was that 'toolkit' gave theimpression of a checklist exercise, and it's got to be about more than that if it's going to be meaningful. So, it'll be changed to an 'improvement resource'.Lynne Neagle AM: Okay. Before I bring Suzy in, can I justwelcome Siân Gwenllian, who is joining us via video-conference in north Wales? Morning, Siân.Sian Gwenllian AM: Good morning. Can you hear me?Lynne Neagle AM: We can, yes. We can hear you very nicely, thankyou.Sian Gwenllian AM: Okay. Thank you.Lynne Neagle AM: Suzy, you've got a supplementary.Suzy Davies AM: Yes. Only a very quick one. It's about the development of the—Kirsty Williams AM: The resource.SuzyDavies AM: Yes, the resource, thank you—about whether there were any conflicting ideas in the process of development that made it quite difficult to zone in on something that school leadership teams, in particular,could rely on. Were there differences of opinion on what this should look like?Kirsty Williams AM: Not that I'm aware of from the practitioners that I've spoken to who have been part of that. So, for instance, Suzy, youwill know the very small school of Gladestry. The head of Gladestry has been involved in this process, and she said that she'd really enjoyed the process of working alongside Estyn and the OECD as a school leader to beable to shape it. But I'm not aware that there's been conflict in that process.Suzy Davies AM: I'm not suggesting that there has been; I'm just interested as to how it had worked, that's all.Steve Davies: Chair, I think,inevitably, when you bring stakeholders together, they're not going to be in total agreement as to how it's going to work, and I think initially one of the challenges was having Estyn there as part of the facilitation group.There are always some concerns that, actually, it's coming from a to inspect, oral, judgmental tick box. So, we had some early day challenges where we had to convince—and, ultimately, Estyn convinced them—thatthey were there to help and support as opposed to to inspect, and that the model that was developed, as the Minister said, was not going to be a tick box, 'You are good at this part of self-evaluation', it was to build theskillsets up.Suzy Davies AM: Okay. So, it's got their full confidence.Kirsty Williams AM: Yes, and I think again, also, what—. You know, four years into the job, what I've reflected on as well is there is this sometimes afeeling out there that the Minister says all the right stuff, but you're not actually going to do it, so, when you talk about a new approach to doing things, you're not actually serious about it. So, trying to build thatconfidence that we are serious about developing a new system around self-improvement, which is different from accountability—sometimes, the practitioners are like, 'Oh, yes, we've heard it all before but it neveractually happens.' And I think that's been a part of the constant—not pressure, but the responsibility on Welsh Government is in following through. So, we said that we were going to do this in the national mission, andwe are going to do it. I'm really proud that there or thereabouts, a few months either way, we've actually kept to the timetable as outlined in the national mission, and that helps build confidence within the sector thatwe are committed to that programme and we're going to do what we say we're going to do.Suzy Davies AM: Okay. Thank you.Lynne Neagle AM: And a final question from me: how effective do you think the investmentin school standards has been in this Assembly term, as opposed to the approach taken in the last Assembly term, where there was the protection put in place for core school budgets?Kirsty Williams AM: Well, I think,first of all, it's important that, whilst this additional resource is specifically targeted at school standards, that is only a part of a much wider education budget, a budget that—you know—is incredibly complex. And so it isreally challenging to be able to draw straight lines—you know, 'We did this and it's resulted in that'—given that we're looking at the entirety of school funding here. What's been really important is that, if you drill downinto what that money has been spent on, 50 per cent of it has been directed towards professional learning in one form or another to support our teaching professionals. And that's been really important to me. I've said ittime and time again: an education system cannot exceed the quality of the people who stand in front of our children day in, day out to work with them and teach them. Therefore, that investment in staff and investmentin the professional learning of our staff and support for them I think is making a difference already but, importantly, will continue to make a difference. But I think it is really challenging to be able to say, 'Well, we spentthis bit of money and it definitely led to that', because it's such a complex picture. But that money, the way it's been spent, has been driven by evidence. And, again, what we do know from international best practice,what do we know that works in driving up standards, and then how can we align the money that we've got to supporting that? And, as I said, 50 per cent of that money has gone directly to simply supporting theprofessional learning of those who work with our children.Lynne Neagle AM: Thank you very much. We're going to talk now a bit about schools causing concern with questions from Huw Irranca-Davies.HuwIrranca-Davies AM: Thank you, Chair. If I can, just first of all, zoom in on the way in which we actually decide which schools need what support. So, one of the interesting questions for us is how do we use the differentsystems out there. So, we've got the school categorisation system, which we're familiar with. We've also got Estyn inspection reports, then we've got other intelligence, including local intelligence on the ground. How doyou decide from that? How is it decided what schools need support, need challenge? How do we do that?Kirsty Williams AM: Well, you're right: what we have is a variety of ways in which we can identify schools thatneed support, or need to be challenged on their practice. But it's important not to confuse them either. So, our primary route to doing this is our school categorisation system. Sometimes, and perhaps this isinevitable—. That system is primarily there as a triage system around identifying where our resource should be spent. So, our school improvement service—it's a risk-based approach, so they can evaluate where theyneed to put their time, effort and resource. Sometimes, it's used by other people for other things, but that is not its primary purpose; its primary purpose there is not one of accountability, it is one of identifying risk andaligning that then to the support that is available. Estyn—now that is part of that accountability system. That is our method of holding schools and their governing bodies to account for their practice and for the workthat they do. Both systems, of course, are evolving. So, how we do categorisation has changed over a period of time. The elements that go into making that judgment around the levels of support have changed, and, ofcourse, the Estyn inspection regime is also changing. At the moment, schools are only inspected once every seven years. We're moving to a system where Estyn will be more regularly in schools. So, they are twosystems, but they are different and they look at different things. But our categorisation system is how we look for those ways of identifying support for schools.Huw Irranca-Davies AM: And you've made, with feedbackover the last few years, adjustments to the way that the categorisation system works. Are you content with where it is now, or do you see more adjustments being made? Have you got things in front of you that you'regetting feedback on saying 'Well, we need to tweak this again a little bit'?Kirsty Williams AM: So, that system has evolved over time. So, when it started, it was just a tool around secondary schools. Now, it covers thebreadth of schools. Initially, on coming into office, when I first came in, it was purely driven by data, and it was also done in quartiles. So, there was a certain number of schools that had to be in the bottom, whichdrove practitioners mad. They were like 'Ah, every year, there's going to be some of us that have to be in the bottom quartile', because of the way in which it was arranged, which seemed very unfair to them. So, we'vechanged that. It's not just purely driven on data now; there are other judgments—the professional judgments of our challenge advisers are taken into account. And I would expect that situation to continue to evolve toalign itself to our curriculum reform, and our changes in self-evaluation. So, it's not a fixed point. I expect that that system will continue to evolve and change, so that it complements and assists in the reform journeyas other parts of the system change.Huw Irranca-Davies AM: Thanks for that. I think, for any impartial reader of the way that the trends have been going on this, there is some good news within that, in that, certainly,those schools that might have been identified as have been okay but coasting along, seem to be moving up the categories, although we still do have that—. Well, it's what the system is there to do, it's to identify thoseschools that do need that additional support. And I like your analogy of a triage system—'You're fit; keep on doing what you're doing and do it well; you need more support, we'll put the support in.' But, can I turn tothose schools that are causing significant concern, and how we identify them? The Estyn chief inspector's conclusions at the end of the 2017-18 report that these schools are not being identified early enough—there's aneed to do something urgently about these concerns, particularly in secondary schools. Have we addressed that? Are you content that we've addressed that concern? Was he right?Kirsty Williams AM: No, the chiefinspector is absolutely right—absolutely right. I've got no beef with that statement at all. In some ways, when a school goes into special measures, in a way, that's a failure of the system, because that should have beenidentified sooner. So I've got no beef, as I said, with the chief inspector saying that.Huw Irranca-Davies AM: So just to ask, bearing in mind the earlier discussion we were having, how is it that we don't identify thoseschools?Kirsty Williams AM: That's it—you're quite right. Undoubtedly, what categorisation has done is led to a greater understanding, I think, on behalf of local education authorities' and school improvement services'knowledge about their schools. I think knowledge around schools is greatly enhanced by that process. But we are not there yet in terms of necessarily, then, moving those schools more quickly, once they've beenidentified as needing the highest level of support to see improvement. And secondary schools is a particular, particular challenge. So you will have seen from the last publication of categorisation data that our primarysector continues to improve—more and more and more of our primary schools are in a green rating, which is very satisfying to me. But we have got more of an issue with secondary schools, and we have a particularissue with the same schools being identified in that level of categorisation. So even though we've identified them as needing that extra help, they are not moving at pace away from that system. So there are two thingsthat we are doing at the moment. The first is, we are, again, looking at different sets of data that can give us even earlier warning systems that things are going wrong in a school—and perhaps Steve will explain later.For instance, staff sickness, and carefully monitoring staff sickness, because there is a direct correlation between high levels of staff sickness in a school and what is going on in the school. And Steve can explain some ofthis work later. But we're piloting a new approach to those schools that are causing concern. Each local authority has been asked to identify two of their high schools that they are particularly worried about. And we havea new multi-agency approach, working with those schools to try and move them more forward. So it's two from each region, a multi-agency panel, working with the school. And that multi-agency panel includes theschool itself, the local authority, the regional consortia school improvement staff, Estyn and Welsh Government—as a multi-agency panel to support improvement in that school. So, for instance, what would normallyhappen, Estyn would come in, Estyn would make a judgment on the school—requiring special measures or urgent improvement—and Estyn would go away. They'd go away for six months, and then they'd come back in


User Interface: {gap}Project Manager: {vocalsound}User Interface: {vocalsound} How do you wear this thing ?Project Manager: Hmm . Mm mm mm . {vocalsound}User Interface: Not too many cables and stuff.Marketing: {gap}User Interface: {vocalsound} {vocalsound}Project Manager: {vocalsound}User Interface: {vocalsound} Original . {vocalsound}Project Manager: {vocalsound} Is recorded ? Okay ? Okay so welcomeeveryone . So we are here for the kickoff meeting of uh the process of designing a new remote control . So I will first start with a warm welcome opening {vocalsound} stuff ,User Interface: {vocalsound}ProjectManager: then uh we will uh see what will be uh our product and what will be the different step we will have to design it . And uh then we will uh discuss if we have few ideas and we will uh end uh by uh dispatching thedifferent task you will be {disfmarker} you will have to fulfil to complete this process . So {disfmarker}User Interface: Uh . Just one thing . Uh , you said twenty-five minutes , but I have something else to do uh , sogotta have another meeting uh soon ,Project Manager: {vocalsound}User Interface: so maybe you could hurry up a bit {disfmarker}Project Manager: {vocalsound} sorry ?User Interface: It's true . I have anothermeeting so if you could uh {disfmarker}Project Manager: You have another meeting soon ?User Interface: Yeah .Project Manager: So you have to be quick .Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}User Interface: Yeah , forthe lawnmower project .Project Manager: Okay .User Interface: Okay .Project Manager: So the the goal is to have a remote control so to have an advantage over our competitors we have to be original , we have to betrendy and we have to also try to be user-friendly .User Interface: {vocalsound}Project Manager: So uh the design step will be divided in three uh main points . First it will be the functional design . Third is theconceptual design and then is the desired design . So the functional design is to identify the main user needs , the technical function the remote control should fulfil . And then we will move to f conceptual design wherewe'll specify the different component involved , what kind of user interf interface we want and what are the different uh trend in user interface and stuff like that .Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}Project Manager: Andthen the desired devi design will consist in uh specifically implementing {vocalsound} and detailing the choice we've uh made in the second point . So I will now ask you which is very important for the design of a newremote control for to uh each of us to to draw uh your favourite animal on the white board .User Interface: {vocalsound} What an original idea .Project Manager: {vocalsound} Do you have any idea of which animal youwant to show us ? {vocalsound}User Interface: Orangutan .Project Manager: Okay {vocalsound} that's good .Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}User Interface: {vocalsound}Industrial Designer: No no nProjectManager: {vocalsound} n n {gap}User Interface: Can I give you theProject Manager: You should {disfmarker}User Interface: {disfmarker} no ? But I don't have to say anything . When I'm drawing the orangutan.Project Manager: {vocalsound} {vocalsound} If you want to react uh about this wonderful drawing uh {vocalsound} I'll let you uh comment .User Interface: {vocalsound} {vocalsound}Industrial Designer:{vocalsound}Marketing: {vocalsound}User Interface: It's an abstract drawing of an orangutan .Project Manager: Okay it's an abstract drawing .User Interface: Yes .Project Manager: I think it's nice and original .{vocalsound}Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} You should write y the name I think . {vocalsound}Marketing: {vocalsound}User Interface: I don't have a red colour . Usually orangutans have red hair so this is a veryimportant but I don't have red pen , so {disfmarker}Project Manager: Okay .User Interface: {vocalsound} Yes .Project Manager: You want to draw something Christine ? {vocalsound}Marketing: {vocalsound}{vocalsound}User Interface: {vocalsound}Marketing: Okay uh sorry . You have to imagine a little bit {vocalsound} um .Project Manager: {vocalsound}Marketing: This {disfmarker}Project Manager: Of course youranimal is recorded so it's not lost . {vocalsound}Marketing: {vocalsound} Sorry too {vocalsound} uh .User Interface: Yes . I know .Project Manager: {vocalsound}Marketing: {vocalsound}User Interface:{vocalsound}Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}Marketing: {vocalsound}User Interface: {vocalsound}Project Manager: Is this uh {disfmarker}User Interface: Wha what is this strange beast ?Marketing: Is it beautiful ?{vocalsound}Project Manager: {vocalsound}Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}User Interface: Is it a monster ?Project Manager: {vocalsound}Marketing: Do you know ? It's a cat .User Interface: It's a cat ?IndustrialDesigner: {vocalsound}Marketing: {vocalsound} Isn't it ? {vocalsound}User Interface: I thought these things did not exist .Project Manager: {vocalsound}Marketing: {vocalsound} Yes yesIndustrial Designer: Me{vocalsound}Marketing: is it {disfmarker} like that .User Interface: Ah yeah {vocalsound}Industrial Designer: Ah yeah . Yeah .Marketing: Is it better ?Project Manager: Ah okay it's pretty . {vocalsound}Marketing:{vocalsound} Okay .Project Manager: {vocalsound} Okay it's your cat . {vocalsound}Marketing: {vocalsound} It's my cat .User Interface: Does have a name ?Marketing: {vocalsound} Yeah . {vocalsound}IndustrialDesigner: {vocalsound}Marketing: The name is Caramel .User Interface: Caramel . Ah-ha .Industrial Designer: Caramel .Marketing: Yeah . {vocalsound}Project Manager: Okay . Olivier , do you want to{vocalsound}Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} And you {vocalsound} {vocalsound} I think I'm too short for the cables . {vocalsound}Marketing: {vocalsound}Project Manager: {vocalsound} Okay I go , but next timeyou'll do something I'm sure . {vocalsound} {vocalsound} I'm a bit short on cable .User Interface: Next time I concentrate .Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}Project Manager: Okay . So what could I draw ?{vocalsound} Maybe I can draw like a very simplified cow . {vocalsound} I don't know if it looks like a cow {vocalsound}User Interface: He looks like a bong .Marketing: {vocalsound}Industrial Designer:{vocalsound}Project Manager: Like a what ? {vocalsound}User Interface: Okay . Sorry . No .Industrial Designer: Quite squarey .User Interface: Scary ?Project Manager: {gap} {vocalsound}Industrial Designer: He also. {vocalsound}Marketing: {vocalsound}Project Manager: I dunno it it looks more like a donkey in fact {vocalsound} I would say .User Interface: {vocalsound}Marketing: {vocalsound}User Interface: {vocalsound} I Ithink we will be finished this uh {disfmarker}Industrial Designer: Mm .Project Manager: Okay so I hope that it helps you uh in the process of designing a remote control .User Interface: Is it for uh for putting a{disfmarker} for logos , no .Project Manager: {vocalsound} Okay .User Interface: {vocalsound} That's {disfmarker}Project Manager: Let's move on . So {disfmarker} Here the uh financial objective of our project . Thatis to say to to have a production cost lower than twelve point five Euros and have a selling price of twice that price t in order to target a profe profit of uh fifty uh million Euros .User Interface: I is there a matter for anew remote control ?Project Manager: {vocalsound} Yeah if it's trendy , original I d fulfil the user needs .User Interface: Is it uh a single device remote control or is it a multi-device remote control ?Project Manager: Wehave to discuss that point .User Interface: AhProject Manager: On {disfmarker}User Interface: this is not defined at all ?Project Manager: yeah you you can suggest points like this . So what what {disfmarker}UserInterface: Ah , okay .Project Manager: so we have to decide for example if it can control one device or multiple . So what's {disfmarker} what are your ideas about that ?User Interface: {vocalsound}Project Manager:Maybe I can have the {disfmarker} your opinion from the marketing side ?User Interface: Well uh do we sell other stuff ? Uh if if we bundle the remote control with something uh to sell then it could be a single device ,otherwise it could be programmable one otherwise who would buy a remote control from us .Project Manager: Okay , so if it selled uh by its own i it it would rather be for multiple device .User Interface: Yeah .ProjectManager: {vocalsound} Do you agree ?Industrial Designer: Mm-hmm .Project Manager: Yeah . So maybe it should be for multiple devices . And uh do you have any ideas um of uh design ideas or any uh uh technicalrequirement we we should uh fulfil ?Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} I think we shouldn't have too many b for my part . I think {disfmarker}User Interface: No , I couldn I cannot fi think of any requirements right now. {vocalsound}Industrial Designer: If we don't have so many buttons could be nice .Project Manager: {vocalsound} Few buttons . Okay .User Interface: {vocalsound}Project Manager: And do you have it also to be{disfmarker} to be lighted in order to be used in the dark ? Might be a good idea .Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Yeah .Project Manager: Okay . And do you have any um any uh idea of the trend {disfmarker} thetrend in domain , what it shouldn't {disfmarker} it should look like , or things like that ?Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Something which is not squarey maybe uh , not a box .User Interface: Mm .Project Manager:With rou okay . Like for {disfmarker} okay .User Interface: Something like that , least fits in your hand .Project Manager: Okay .User Interface: {vocalsound} Yeah .Industrial Designer: Yeah .User Interface: The basicrequirement .Project Manager: So . Fit in your hand , yeah .User Interface: {vocalsound} Only a buck .Project Manager: And also it have , i it may be {vocalsound} it may be important for the remote control to be uh{disfmarker} To , to resist to various shocks that can happen if it fall .User Interface: {vocalsound}Industrial Designer: Mm-hmm .User Interface: Waterproof . {vocalsound}Project Manager: {vocalsound} Water-proofas well .Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} And I think we should have a device {disfmarker}Project Manager: Maybe it is original because you can uh use it in your uh {disfmarker} in your bath whereas the others can't.User Interface: {vocalsound}Marketing: {vocalsound}Project Manager: Maybe water-proof would be very original .Industrial Designer: Sorry . {gap}Marketing: {vocalsound}Project Manager: Havin having awater-proof remote control so that the people can uh use it in their bath .User Interface: Mm .Project Manager: That could be uh {disfmarker}User Interface: B it seems uh so , but uh if you don't have an waterproofremote control it means you can just cover it with some plastic and you can sort of fProject Manager: Yeah but , it is still something uh you have to buy and that is um not maybe very {disfmarker}User Interface: And ,and that's one of the {disfmarker} that's one of the shock {disfmarker} I mean there are people that have a remote control and they are worried that it's going to break and they put some extra plastic around it.Project Manager: Yeah , mayb BUser Interface: That's people {gap} they actually do it themselves .Project Manager: But maybe we can bulk it with uh already this plastic thing and uh the waterproof uh stuff as well.Industrial Designer: Yeah . {gap} directly .User Interface: I it will look a bulky in that case .Project Manager: Yeah . Maybe we can sell uh all that together , so so plastic protection and uh and a waterproof box as well.Industrial Designer: Yeah .Project Manager: That might be good uh track to follow .User Interface: Like as an optional thing .Project Manager: Optional or selled with it ?Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} And I I thinkwe should have something , most of the time I I lose my remote control .Project Manager: Yeah .Industrial Designer: We should have s uh special bu button on the T_V_ to make the remote control beeping .ProjectManager: Maybe we can have uh {disfmarker} But we don't design the T_V_ .Marketing: {vocalsound}Project Manager: Maybe we can have uh something you whistle and uh the remote control uh beep .IndustrialDesigner: Ah yeah .Marketing: {vocalsound}User Interface: Barks .Industrial Designer: Yeah . {vocalsound}Project Manager: Yeah , barks , yeah .Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Barks .Project Manager: So we canuh have a whistle uh remote control ?Industrial Designer: Yeah . Yeah whistle .Project Manager: I don't know , whistle-able ? {vocalsound} ThIndustrial Designer: Whistle tracking . {vocalsound}Project Manager:{vocalsound} Whistle tracking yeah . Whistle tracking remote control . That's a good idea , that's very original and that's can uh improve .User Interface: {vocalsound} That's that's quite cool , but uh of course we{disfmarker} you don't normally need uh any audio uh recording stuff on your remote control right ?Project Manager: Yeah d d uh .User Interface: So i it's just going to add t to the cost .Project Manager: Yeah but s stillwe have to mm we have to {vocalsound} have an advantage over our competitors . I think this is a good advantage .User Interface: {vocalsound} It's cool . I think I like the idea , but I'm not sure about the what you,Project Manager: Yeah . We have to ask {disfmarker}User Interface: who is giving {disfmarker} who's giving who's giving our budget . Who's {disfmarker}Project Manager: Yeah . We have to ask the quest of that's uhdesign to the uh Industrial um Designer .User Interface: Yeah . Yeah .Industrial Designer: Yeah . {vocalsound} yeah {vocalsound}Project Manager: {vocalsound} Which is you .User Interface: 'Kay .{vocalsound}Project Manager: {vocalsound} Okay so try to find that for next meeting . {vocalsound}Industrial Designer: Okay . {vocalsound}Project Manager: Okay . So next meeting is in thirty minutes or so uh .{vocalsound} Don't pani .Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Don't panic . {vocalsound}Project Manager: So so I will ask the Industrial Designer to find out more about this industrial design so any working {disfmarker}any working function we have discussed .Industrial Designer: Mm-hmm .Project Manager: So then I will ask the User Interf Interface Designer to to think about the point we discussed like the number of buttons , thethe fact that is lighted or not , things like that , and what would be convenient for the user .User Interface: Mm-hmm .Project Manager: And also um {vocalsound} I will ask the Market Expert to uh try to find out whatare the absolute requirements , what is absolutely needed in a remote control uh for the user . So . And then uh I will uh just ask you to think about that and uh look at your mail because you will receive uh some goodadvice soon . {vocalsound}User Interface: Mm .Project Manager: So . Thank you I think that's all for this point .User Interface: Good .Industrial Designer: Mm-hmm .User Interface: {vocalsound}Marketing: Thank you{vocalsound}User Interface: Uh , so we come back in five minutes ? Half an hour .Project Manager: Anyway you will receive some messages . {vocalsound} Be careful . You eat it ? Does it move uh ? Okay , but I don'tknow if it uh is still correctly uh {disfmarker} We'll see .Industrial Designer: Ah . {gap}


Project Manager: Uh , making a profit of fifty million Euros . {vocalsound}Industrial Designer: Alright so twenty five .User Interface: Mm 'kay .Project Manager: So , it's go gonna have to be be pretty damn trendy .{vocalsound}Industrial Designer: So yeah , I've {disfmarker} The only the only remote controls I've used usually come with the television , and they're fairly basic .Project Manager: Yeah . Yeah .User Interface:Mm-hmm .Industrial Designer: So uh {disfmarker} {vocalsound}Project Manager: Yeah , I was thinking that as well , I think the the only ones that I've seen that you buy are the sort of one for all type things wherethey're ,User Interface: Yeah the universal ones . Yeah .Industrial Designer: Mm .Project Manager: yeah . So presumably that might be an idea to put into .Industrial Designer: But but to sell it for twenty five you needa lot of neat features . For sure .Marketing: Slim .Project Manager: Yeah , yeah .User Interface: Yeah .Project Manager: Uh 'cause I mean , what {disfmarker} uh twenty five Euros , that's about I dunno , fifteen Poundsor so ? And that's quite a lot for a remote control .User Interface: Mm-hmm , it's about that .Industrial Designer: Yeah , yeah .User Interface: Mm .Marketing: {vocalsound}User Interface: Um well my first thoughtswould be most remote controls are grey or black . As you said they come with the T_V_ so it's normally just your basic grey black remote control {gap} functions ,Project Manager: Uh-huh .User Interface: so maybe wecould think about colour ?Project Manager: Mm-hmm .User Interface: Make {disfmarker} that might make it a bit different from the rest at least . Um , and as you say , we need to have some kind of gimmick , so um Ithought maybe something like if you lose it and you can whistle ,Project Manager: Okay . {vocalsound} The the keyrings , yeah yeah .User Interface: you know those things ? Because we always lose our remote control.Industrial Designer: Right .Marketing: {vocalsound} Uh yeah uh ,Project Manager: Okay , that's cool .Marketing: being as a Marketing Exper Expert I will like to say like before deciding the cost of this remote control orany other things we must see the market potential for this product like what is the competition in the market ? What are the available prices of the other remote controls in the prices ?Project Manager: {gap} Okay.Marketing: What speciality other remote controls are having and how complicated it is to use these remote controls as compared to other remote controls available in the market . So before deciding or before finalisingthis project , we must discuss all these things , like {disfmarker}User Interface: Okay .Marketing: and apart from this , it should be having a good look also , because people really li uh like to play with it when they arewatching movies or playing with {gap} or playing with their C_D_ player , M_P_ three player like any electronic devices .User Interface: Mm . Mm-hmm .Marketing: They really want to have something good , having agood design in their hands ,Project Manager: {gap}User Interface: Mm-hmm . Yeah .Project Manager: Okay .Marketing: so , yes ,Project Manager: 'Kay .Marketing: all this .Industrial Designer: Uh , what do we think a{disfmarker}Project Manager: So , we're looking for {disfmarker} {gap} 'Kay .Industrial Designer: What do we think a good size would be for this ? {gap}Project Manager: We're {disfmarker}Marketing:{gap}Industrial Designer: 'Cause I I know as you add more buttons to the remote it sometimes gets so big and clunkyProject Manager: Sorry , carry on . {vocalsound}User Interface: {vocalsound}Industrial Designer:and there's just like a hundred buttons on it ,Project Manager: Mm-hmm .User Interface: Yeah .Industrial Designer: or you could have a really small slim one but then you could lose it easily . {vocalsound}ProjectManager: Mm-hmm .User Interface: Yeah . Then you lose it , yeah . {vocalsound}Project Manager: Okay .User Interface: Kind of um , maybe more like a P_D_A_ kind of , just hand held , like ,Project Manager: For foruhUser Interface: 'cause {disfmarker}Project Manager: remember we're trying to make it for twelve Euros fifty . {vocalsound}User Interface: Yeah . No , I wasn't , no sorry I wasn't thinking of the screen of like aP_D_A_Project Manager: Okay well right we'll have to um {disfmarker} I'll {disfmarker}User Interface: butProject Manager: we're k having another meeting in half an hour so umUser Interface: Okay .Project Manager:we should all look into a bit uh , oh actually , no , we'll allocate . So you do the looking around at other remote controls .Marketing: Yeah .Project Manager: Um , if you could maybe come up with sort of shapes andsuggested shades or whatever , and you could look into um {vocalsound} basically how how it's made I_E_ like how you make it all in one , how {disfmarker} what sort of materials are available to you whatever . Andobviously , other instructions will come from the personal coach .Industrial Designer: Right .Project Manager: Which will probably just usurp what I said so {disfmarker}User Interface: So you want me to look at shapesand everything you said ?Project Manager: Shapes and colours and {disfmarker} um basically how to make it attractive .User Interface: Yep . Okay .Project Manager: Uh .User Interface: Mm-hmm .Marketing:{gap}Project Manager: And you look at competition and design .Marketing: Yep .Project Manager: Cool . {vocalsound}Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Okay .User Interface: Okay .Marketing: {gap}Project Manager:SoIndustrial Designer: {gap}Project Manager: we have uh {disfmarker}Industrial Designer: Wait for emails ?Marketing: Uh .Project Manager: {vocalsound} Um .Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}Project Manager:{vocalsound} {vocalsound}Industrial Designer: Hmm .Project Manager: {vocalsound}Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}Project Manager: Okay , groovy . And no doubt we'll get um {disfmarker}User Interface: Oh no ,{gap} .Project Manager: Sorry .User Interface: SorryProject Manager: We'll get um warnings for next meetings as well .User Interface: it's okay . Okay , cool .Project Manager: {vocalsound} Okay . I shall {disfmarker}I can't imagine these {gap} are worth much . {vocalsound}Marketing: Hmm .Project Manager: Okay . Fashion into electronic . Okay .


The Chair (Hon. Anthony Rota (NipissingTimiskaming, Lib.)): I call this meeting to order.  Welcome to the 23rd meeting of the House of Commons Special Committee on the COVID-19 Pandemic.  A reminder to allmembers that in order to avoid issues with sound, members participating in person should not also be connected to the video conference. For those of you who are joining via video conference, I will remind you thatwhen speaking you should be on the same channel as the language you are speaking, and please use your headsets. As usual, please direct your remarks through the chair. As I understand, there are no ministerialannouncements today.  We will now proceed to presenting petitions. I remind members that any petition presented during a meeting of this special committee must have already been certified by the clerk of petitions.For members participating in person, I ask that they please come and drop their signed certificates off at the table once the petition is presented. I would ask members to be very brief and concise, and to summarize theexact content of the petition. We will continue. The first person presenting a petition today is Ms. May.Ms. Elizabeth May (SaanichGulf Islands, GP): Thank you, Mr. Chair. I present two petitions this morning. Theresidents of SaanichGulf Islands are calling on the government to simplify the process for protection of marine protected areas. It's a multi-layered communication process. The marine protected area first proposed inthe 1970s for the southern Strait of Georgia, now called the Salish Sea, has been awaiting designation for so long that it was originally endorsed by Jacques Cousteau. That gives us a sense for why petitioners arecalling for a simplified and more rapid process. The second petition is from petitioners who are very concerned about our obligations under the United Nations Declaration on the Rights of Indigenous Peoples and ourcommitments under the Truth and Reconciliation Commission calls to action. They specifically reference the RCMP violation of UNDRIP in its actions on Wet'suwet'en territory and ask the government to commit toactually living the principles embodied in UNDRIP.The Chair: We will now go to Mr. Hardie.Mr. Ken Hardie (FleetwoodPort Kells, Lib.): Thank you, Mr. Chair. I am presenting a petition on behalf of the one in a millionCanadians who suffer severe and adverse effects from vaccinations. GuillainBarre syndrome is very debilitating, and this petition seeks the setting up of a no-fault accident or compensation system to help offset the lossof work, the loss of wages and the loss of quality of life that many of these people suffer. I'm pleased to present this petition pursuant to Standing Order 36.The Chair: Mr.Trudel, you have the floor.Mr. Denis Trudel(LongueuilSaint-Hubert, BQ): Mr.Chair, culture is the soul of a people. Over the past 20years or so, culture, especially music, has never been as accessible as it is now. Paradoxically, creators' incomes have never beenso low. The advent of digital technology has completely overturned the system for distributing the wealth generated by creators for the benefit of various Web stakeholders, many of whom are billionaires. This petitionaddresses these problems and proposes realistic solutions. The first is to set a minimum royalty model for streaming platforms for artists. The second is to update the existing private copying system. The third is forInternet and cell phone providers who sell their services as direct access to culture to share their profits with artists. The fourth is that the GAFAMs have to pay taxes on their services. Six thousand people have alreadysigned the first version of this petition, launched last month by musician JordanOfficer and supported by singer BarbaraSecours. As an artist, I am proud to present this petition today because the issues it raises arefundamental to the survival of Quebec culture.The Chair: We'll now continue with Mr. Genuis.Mr. Garnett Genuis (Sherwood ParkFort Saskatchewan, CPC): Thank you very much, Mr. Chair. I have four petitions topresent today. I will be as brief as you suggested, although I will observe that if some members are going on longer during petitions than they normally do, it might be because the government has taken away so manyof the tools that opposition members normally have for raising important issues in the House. The first petition deals with the issue of euthanasia and long-term care. The petitioners are concerned that instead offocusing on improving medically assisted life, something that we know is a major issue in light of recent revelations, the government has put so much time and legislative energy into efforts to continually further expandeuthanasia in Canada and remove vital safeguards. The second petition speaks to the ongoing conversations happening in Canada around systemic discrimination and systemic racism. I think we do need to reflect onsystemic discrimination. This petition deals specifically with Bill 21 in Quebec and raises concerns. The reality of the way that bill applies is that people from certain backgrounds who wish to practise their faith are notable to fully participate in Canadian society if they are employed in the public service. This petition asks the government to provide a response on that issue, something it hasn't done in response to past petitions onthis. The third petition deals with the issue of firearms. The petitioners want to see the government take a strong response in dealing with illegal guns and gun smuggling. The petition notes that the vast majority offirearms-related crimes in Canada involves illegal guns. At the same time, the petitioners are concerned that the government has the wrong focusthat is, harassing law-abiding firearms ownerswithout putting in placesubstantial measures to deal with illegal guns. The petitioners want to see the reversal of the order in council from May 1 and strong measures to deal with illegal firearms. The fourth and final petition deals with BillS-204, a bill that would make it a criminal offence for a Canadian to go abroad and receive an organ from a person who has not consented to giving that organ. It would also create a mechanism by which someone couldbe deemed inadmissible to Canada if they were involved in organ harvesting and trafficking. The petitioners are supportive of Bill S-204 and of similar bills in previous parliaments and would like to see us pass that billas soon as possible.The Chair: Presenting petitions, Mr. Lamoureux.Mr. Kevin Lamoureux (Winnipeg North, Lib.): Thank you, Mr. Chair. It is with pleasure that I table another petition by the residents of Winnipeg North.These residents have signed a petition asking the Government of Canada, and in fact all members of Parliament, to put a high priority on assisting our poorest seniors. The increases to the GIS by $200, and $300 to theOAS, have been well received. They just want to highlight how important it is to support our seniors, in particular the poorest of our seniors.The Chair: For members present in the Chamber, a reminder that they areasked to bring their petitions to the table. We'll now proceed to statements by members. We'll go to Ms. Atwin for the first one.Mrs. Jenica Atwin (Fredericton, GP): Thank you, Mr. Chair. June 21 is National IndigenousPeoples Day, a day of acknowledgement and a day of celebration of the beautiful diversity of indigenous peoples across Turtle Island. I wish to recognize the leadership of Chief Shelley Sabattis of the Welamukotuk FirstNation in Oromocto, New Brunswick. Each year she and her council, volunteers and staff go above and beyond to show appreciation for their members and to demonstrate pride and culture while promoting well-being.We gather in an event where all are welcome to take part, from traditional hand drum-making with elders to moose meat and tacos. This year we will celebrate a bit differently, but we will still stay connected, virtuallyand in spirit, to the vast network of indigenous peoples and allies. We need each other now more than ever. May we come together in song and stories and in solidarity. We will remember those who are not among us. Ihope all of Canada will join us in observing National Indigenous Peoples Day.  Mawiyapasuwok: let us come together. Nit liech.The Chair: We'll now go to Mr. Beech.Mr. Terry Beech (Burnaby NorthSeymour, Lib.): Mr.Chair, COVID-19 is an unprecedented challenge for all communities across Canada, but as we do our part to flatten the curve, I often think about those who suit up every morning to serve on the front lines of our healthcare system. My mother is a home care worker and my sister is a nurse. Even before the crisis, they would often share the hardships they faced on a day-to-day basis. It's a tough job at the best of times. In apandemic, these jobs are life-threatening. I think we can all agree that these workers deserve more than our good wishes. They deserve a raise. That is why we have worked with the provinces to implement pandemicpay. In British Columbia more than 250,000 front-line workers are eligible for this program. That works out to a pay increase of about $4 an hour. It's a small show of our appreciation for their difficult and pricelesscontribution to our country. Share this message and say thanks to our front-line workers, participate in the 7 p.m. cheer, and order a pizza for your local nurses. It's the least we can do.The Chair: We'll now go on to Mr.Shipley.Mr. Doug Shipley (BarrieSpringwaterOro-Medonte, CPC): Thank you, Mr. Chair. We've been living in difficult times. Slowly, we are getting back to some resemblance of normalcy, although unfortunately not soonenough for some of our great summer festivals. It will not be normal in BarrieSpringwaterOro-Medonte this summer without the iconic Boots and Hearts weekend music festival, Kempenfest, Oro World's Fair, theElmvale Fall Fair, or the Midhurst Autumnfest. Canada Day celebrations have been cancelled, but we can still celebrate the great nation we call home. Because of the lack of Canada Day celebrations, I've created HappyCanada Day lawn signs that are available through my constituency office, free to all residents of BarrieSpringwaterOro-Medonte. I'm also hosting a drive-through party on Canada Day at the Royal Canadian Legion onSt. Vincent Street in Barrie. All are welcome to attend. There will be cupcakes for all. Please drop by the legion between 11 a.m. and 2 p.m., and we can celebrate Canada Day safely together. Thank you and have agreat summer.The Chair: Now we'll go on to Ms. Young.Ms. Kate Young (London West, Lib.): Thank you, Mr. Chair. Among the countless ordinary Canadians who have stepped up to do extraordinary work duringCOVID-19, I wish to draw attention to our teachers. Teachers have always had a special place in my heart. My father was a teacher, and my daughter-in-law, Kelly Webb, is one now. I'm certain that my colleagues canall easily remember a teacher in their past who played an important role in helping them achieve their potential. I remember my grade 12 English teacher, Vince Weaver, at Westminster Secondary School in London. Hemade me realize that I could do so much more than I believed. Across the country, as schools closed, teachers did not stop their work. Some took their classes online. Others found innovative ways to continue engagingwith their students. This is not the school year anyone imagined, and what the next one will look like is unclear, but our teachers in London West and across Canada have shown that no matter what, they will be there tohelp our next generation shine.The Chair: Before proceeding to the next presenter, I just want to remind the honourable members in the chamber that I realize that the six-foot limit makes it harder to whisper to eachother, but we're hearing a bit of rumble, so I just want you to try to whisper at your best. Mr.Bergeron, you have the floor.Mr. Stphane Bergeron (Montarville, BQ): Mr.Chair, on July1st, we will be celebrating one of themost important events for the riding of Montarville: the 175thanniversary of the city of Saint-Bruno-de-Montarville. The theme Proud of our traditions will be the focus of this celebration for the people of Montarville.This is a good illustration of the rich history of this municipality nestled in the western foothills of Mont-Saint-Bruno. The seigneury of Montarville was granted in1710 to the illustrious former governor of Trois-Rivires,PierreBoucher. The parish of Saint-Bruno, which took root there and in which a village grew, became a municipal corporation in1845. To this day, it is one of the most prosperous localities, with a strong sense ofbelonging, a very dynamic community life and jealously preserved natural environments. A whole program had been drawn up for the celebration, but the current health crisis has taken over some of the plannedactivities, which has in no way diminished the pride and festive spirit of the people of Montarville. On July1st, we will have a good reason to be proud, in spite of everything. Happy 175thanniversary toSaint-Bruno-de-Montarville.The Chair: We'll now continue with Mr. Maloney.Mr. James Maloney (EtobicokeLakeshore, Lib.): Mr. Chair, thank you for allowing me to take a moment to highlight an initiative that I startedearly on during the COVID-19 pandemic. The Heroes of EtobicokeLakeshore is an opportunity for citizens in my riding to recognize the contributions of those in their community who make life a bit easier. I'm pleasedwith the number of nominations I received that honour everyone from front-line workers to businesses that are innovating in these difficult times to volunteers who are finding new ways to reach out. I think of DanielLauzon who set up Food for Now, a mobile service that helps take care of the homeless. I think of Toni Varone, who helped his business clients by forgiving their rents, or young Lucas, who wanted to thank his teachers.I've been moved and inspired by the countless stories of generosity, strength, resiliency, kindness, incredible character and creativity. I want to thank all the heroes, as well as the people who nominated them. Keepthem coming. Stay safe, everyone, and I wish you happy Canada Day early.The Chair: We'll now move on to Ms. Wong.Hon. Alice Wong (Richmond Centre, CPC): Mr. Chair, it gives me great pleasure to thank a localRichmond-based charity, the Social Diversity for Children Foundation, SDC, for its hard work both in raising funds for the purchase of personal protective equipment and in distributing this PPE to long-term care facilitiesand individual seniors' homes in the lower mainland of B.C. The COVID-19 relief fund is supported by a dozen other non-profits, businesses and community groups. Over the past two months, SDC has been to 32seniors homes and senior-related organizations. In total, it has delivered masks to 7,000 care workers, staff and seniors. It is amazing to have witnessed how the younger generation have gotten involved in caring forthe elderly at this very challenging time.The Chair: We'll now go to Ms. Damoff.Ms. Pam Damoff (Oakville NorthBurlington, Lib.): Mr. Chair, June is ALS Awareness Month, and 79 years after Lou Gehrig died from ALSlittle has changed. There's still no cure, and those with ALS typically die within five years of diagnosis. On June 21, Canadians will gather virtually to raise funds for ALS Canada in the Walk to End ALS. In Halton,normally we meet each year at Bronte Creek Provincial Park on the May long weekend to raise funds for ALS Canada. This year I will virtually join Tim's Titans, a team formed to honour Tim Robertson, my friend whodied in 2016 after living with ALS for 13 years. I have a T-shirt, with a picture of Lou Gehrig, that says, Great Player...Lousy Disease and Tim's Titans...Great Team! ALS...Still a Lousy Disease. Join me on June 21 forthe virtual Walk to End ALS to raise funds to support patients and their families and for ALS research.The Chair: We'll now continue with Ms. Khera.Ms. Kamal Khera (Brampton West, Lib.): Mr. Chair, on Saturday ourcommunity stood and marched in solidarity against anti-black racism. The peaceful protests that we're seeing across the country and around the world were not triggered by an isolated incident. They are fuelled bydecades of ineffective action against something that is so insidious and deeply entrenched in our history, systems and institutions. For us, that is the racial inequality faced by Canada's indigenous and blackcommunities. Anti-black racism is real. It exists right here in Canada, in our communities, including in Brampton. It exists when racialized students at McCrimmon Middle School are called McCriminals. It exists when ashocking report exposes the Peel District School Board's failure to work fairly with the black community. It exists when D'Andre Campbell, who was fighting mental illness, loses his life at the hands of the police. It isclear that we need reform. We need to dismantle the systems that allow this privilege and oppression to take form, and address the unconscious bias plaguing our institutions. We'll need to be bold, and the time to dothat is now.The Chair: We'll now go to Mr. Lloyd.Mr. Dane Lloyd (Sturgeon RiverParkland, CPC): Mr. Chair, a few months ago I rose in the House on the eve of our closure due to COVID-19. I told Canadians we must notgive in to fear, that we would carry on and get through this crisis stronger than ever. Today, in this city and across Canada, Canadians are enjoying a beer on their favourite patios. Businesses are reopening, jobs arereturning and our lives are starting to feel a bit normal again. Canadians pulled together, and because of that we did not see the devastating death toll that many had predicted. Life may be returning to normal, butunfortunately, here in this chamber of democracy, the people's voices continue to be shut down. There is no good reason for Parliament to be suspended today. In the words of my grandfather, it's time for the Liberalsto get with the program and bring back the House.The Chair: We will now proceed with Ms. Jones.Ms. Yvonne Jones (Labrador, Lib.): Mr. Chair, from in-person learning to virtual classrooms, COVID-19 has drasticallychanged the lives of students across the country, especially those in post-secondary education who are worried about covering costs like tuition or rent this coming fall. Our government recognized that students shouldnot have to worry or put their futures on pause during this difficult time. That's why last month the federal government introduced the Canada emergency student benefit. If you're a high school student headed to apost-secondary school, or a current post-secondary student or a recent graduate, you can receive the Canada emergency student benefit every four weeks and have the financial support that you need to save forschool. We also doubled Canada student grants and loans, enhanced the student loan program, increased supports for indigenous post-secondary education and introduced the Canada student service grant for thosewho wish to pursue it. Our government is here to help all students get the support they need to pursue their future goals successfully. I wish them all the very best, and I wish all of you, my colleagues and those acrossCanada, a very happy National Indigenous Peoples Day, which is coming up on June 21.The Chair: I want to remind the honourable members to keep to their 60 seconds so that we don't go over the time. I'm sure itwould be a lot easier for everyone if we stuck to that limit. We will now go to Mr. Aitchison.Mr. Scott Aitchison (Parry SoundMuskoka, CPC): Mr. Chair, I rise today to once again implore the government to do somethingabout the horrible lack of access to and crazy cost of rural Internet service. Right now, too many areas of my riding have no access to rural Internet service at all, and those who can get service are paying through thenose. I've even heard constituents say that during this pandemic, they are having to choose between feeding their kids and educating them. Over the last few weeks, Conservatives have been consulting with ruralCanadians, and the results are in. My constituents are tired of fancy political promises. They are frustrated beyond belief by the new challenges created by this pandemic. They are absolutely fed up with having theirpleas ignored. All we want is affordable and reliable Internet service. Is that too much to ask of the government?The Chair: We'll now go to Mr. MacGregor.Mr. Alistair MacGregor (CowichanMalahatLangford, NDP): Mr.Chair, these last few months have been incredibly challenging for the residents of CowichanMalahatLangford, who have been forced to deal with the economic and social consequences of COVID-19. The pandemic haslaid bare the inadequacies of our social safety net, the weakness in our supply chains and the dependence of our society on essential workers, who often work long hours for low wages, putting themselves and theirfamilies at risk. We've also been forced to confront the systemic inequality, poverty and racism that continue to hold so many people back from achieving their full potential. I will not dishonour the sacrifice that so many


Marketing: Great man . Who starts ?Project Manager: Well I'll uh start just with another presentation , so then we can uh look at th at the agenda uh for this meeting .Marketing: Alright , great . Alright .ProjectManager: {vocalsound} Okay . I've put some uh new things in the in the map .Marketing: Mm-hmm .Project Manager: Uh oh . {vocalsound} This is it . I don't know the shortcut , so {disfmarker} Ah F_ five . Well ourfunctional design meeting , that's the stage we're in .Industrial Designer: Mm .Project Manager: And you also ha all three of you have uh prepared something about it .Marketing: Yes .Project Manager: Well um in we'lluh just have a look at the at the notes from the previous meeting , what we uh thought we had dec decided . But uh {disfmarker} Uh then we'll uh look at uh the three uh presentations uh from you . I think you haveprepared uh all three uh ? {vocalsound}Marketing: 'Kay .Industrial Designer: Well , yeah .Marketing: Yeah .Project Manager: Um we'll look at th the new project requirements we uh {disfmarker} I dunno . Y you alsohave uh received that mail , the new project requirements from our bosses ?Industrial Designer: No . {vocalsound}Project Manager: Oh I've received a mail with uh some additional requirements ,Marketing: No . You'rethe only one . {vocalsound}Project Manager: and I'll have a look if {disfmarker}Industrial Designer: Oh .Marketing: Alright .Project Manager: Well I think we should show them before your presentations , because it'snot really uh smart uh to uh to include some things uh we can't , because of the new requirements . Well um then we can make some decisions about our remote control functions .Marketing: 'Kay .Project Manager: Wehave to deb we have to decide it in this meeting what our function will be . And then uh we can discuss uh some more closely . Uh {disfmarker}Industrial Designer: We have forty minutes for this uh discussion ?ProjectManager: Uh yeah , I think so . {vocalsound}Industrial Designer: Alright .Project Manager: Well uh {gap} the closing uh we'll not uh look at it yet .User Interface: {vocalsound}Marketing: Alright .Project Manager: Um{vocalsound} now I'll look at {gap} show {gap} this board . Um {disfmarker} Well uh notes , first meeting . Now . I gave a disc a a presentation . Uh we familiarised ourself with the boards and then we discussed somefirst ideas . So we said that uh we have to merge the strong points from our uh competitors , and uh look at their uh remote controls .Marketing: Right .Project Manager: We should make it uh compatible with our newD_V_D_ and other releases we have , our technical releases .Industrial Designer: Huh ?Project Manager: Uh not too many one buttons . One recognisable button in the middle , where you do the most importantfunctions with . And um well they can have two functions , because uh you have a D_V_D_ and a television .Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Yeah .Project Manager: Um the design has to fit the hand , be original , butalso be familiar . {vocalsound} It's uh one of our ideas .Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} {vocalsound}Marketing: {vocalsound}Project Manager: {vocalsound} Yeah well that wa It's just thirty minutes ago ,UserInterface: {vocalsound}Project Manager: so it's not quite uh {disfmarker} {vocalsound} But well I have to do it .Industrial Designer: Mm-hmm , now it's right .Marketing: {vocalsound} Yeah .Project Manager: Thematerials uh well should be hard plastic with rubber from {gap} , and uh well the labelling of the buttons should be indestructible . It should be uh recognisable at all times .User Interface: {vocalsound}IndustrialDesigner: It's meant to be easily wiped out , yeah . {vocalsound}Project Manager: Yes .User Interface: Mm .Marketing: Okay .Project Manager: Well fronts were to be {gap} just like mobile telephones . And uh thetechnical aspects um {disfmarker} And also labelling of the buttons , the functions should be universal standards . Well that's just uh some ideas from the first meeting . It's quite logical al all of it .Industrial Designer:Mm-hmm .Project Manager: Um now the new project requirements , I'll just show them . I got this mail from uh our bosses . Well , teletext goes out . We will not use teletext .User Interface: Oh .Marketing: Okay.Project Manager: Maybe a new sort of thing , but n but not teletext .Industrial Designer: I I disagree , but uh it's not uh t it's not my place to disagree I guess .Project Manager: Well {disfmarker} the second is a bit shpity because we just said we wanted to d include the D_V_D_User Interface: Oh .Project Manager: and they don't want it , because of our time we have for this project .Marketing: Alright .Industrial Designer: Oh ,alright .User Interface: Oh , that's a shame .Project Manager: So that's a shame , because uh especially for the third requirement we want to reach people under the thirty years . Because uh we don't have thosecustomers a lot at th at this point . Um well it's a bit pity because it's just those people want to have uh one remote control for all those technical devices they can uh reach it .Marketing: Yeah . But let's forget about it .It's just time-consuming ,Project Manager: Yeah .Marketing: so we uh have to go on .User Interface: {vocalsound}Project Manager: Well and uh our corporate image should stay rec recognisable in our products . So uhwe have to uh use uh maybe a slogan , maybe a colour , and um {disfmarker} Yeah well uh on our remote controls the design has to be uh , well as we already said a actually , uh familiar . Uh not only just uh theshape but also our company .Marketing: Yes .Industrial Designer: Yeah , we are a {vocalsound} real fashionable company . I read uh I read it on the {disfmarker}Project Manager: Yeah . {vocalsound} Yeah .UserInterface: Yeah . {vocalsound}Industrial Designer: I didn't know what company we were ,Marketing: Mm .Industrial Designer: but we we design uh especially trendy uh trendy trendy stuff .Marketing:{vocalsound}Project Manager: {vocalsound} Yeah . Okay .Industrial Designer: So it has to be uh a modern design . That's important to know , uh when you design a thing of course .Project Manager: Yes . I I uh noteduh our uh slogan that we have , our company . It's uh we mm put the fashion in electronics .Industrial Designer: Yeah .Project Manager: So maybe that's a slogan we can put uh somewhere on our remote control orsomething .Marketing: Right .User Interface: Yeah .Project Manager: Alright then um we're going to uh have three presentations .Marketing: Yeah .Project Manager: You want to start ?Industrial Designer:{vocalsound}Marketing: Yeah . {vocalsound} I think I have to start .Project Manager: {vocalsound} Oh you have to start ? I didn't see anything about uh who had to start .Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} The order? No . {vocalsound}Marketing: {vocalsound} Oh no , no problem .Project Manager: Well s then start .User Interface: Mm .Marketing: I I just have to uh to think which file's mine ,User Interface:{vocalsound}Marketing: 'cause I was uh bit in a hurry .Project Manager: Okay . Well uh {disfmarker}Marketing: I think it's this one . But I'm not sure . {gap}Project Manager: {gap} You already uh opened uhPowerPoint .Marketing: Hmm ? Yeah . S Right .User Interface: {vocalsound}Marketing: Yes . This is it .Project Manager: Yeah .Marketing: Well , I'm going to tell you something about functional requirements .ProjectManager: Mm-hmm .Marketing: Um to start with these points . Uh next sheet ? Um at first I tell you something about what people dislike about the current uh controls , because it's uh a smart thing to exclude thosethings . Uh , furthermore it's very important what they do like and what they do use . {vocalsound} Um then I tell something about um the most important issues . So we have to focus on those three thing three things. And in the end I'll um show you our target {vocalsound} audience or our target product users , customers . Well , {vocalsound} um the first findings are that people um think most controls are very kind of ug ugly.Project Manager: {vocalsound}Marketing: That's seventy five per cent of the current users . They don't like it , so we might think about fronts in that section . Um {disfmarker} They also say , that's about uh I thoughtit was fifty per cent , uh that more money will be spent on uh better looking controls . So it's very important that you design a a nice looking control . {vocalsound} Um the current user uses his machine just about wellall of the time for a few functions . Uh , almost every user uses it d the the control for just ten per cent of its capacity . So it's really important to make the the buttons for the common uh tasks kind of big or kind of uhflashy . Furthermore , it's uh {vocalsound} seventy five per cent of the users uh zaps a lot . Thus it might be uh might be smart to make a a big uh zapping button or something in the middle , so you can reach it withyour thumb .Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} You can zap away . Yeah . {vocalsound}Marketing: Yeah , yeah right .Project Manager: Yeah .Marketing: Right . A lot of losers um users lose their controls in their{vocalsound} in their living room .Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}Project Manager: {vocalsound}Marketing: So it might be sensible to make some kind of a button on your television , that's your um your controlbeeps or something , that you can find this very easily .Project Manager: {vocalsound} Well {disfmarker} {vocalsound}User Interface: Yeah .Marketing: I dunno , maybe that's an idea .Industrial Designer: Oh.Marketing: 'Cause it's uh a big {disfmarker} I think fifty per cent of the users loses his its control , within the same room .Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Oh ?Project Manager: It should actually uh {disfmarker} Itshould actually be loose from the television ,User Interface: {vocalsound} Yeah .Project Manager: because it can also be used for other televisions . So if you deliver a small uh click-on device that you can put on yourtelevision , that bleeps to your remote control , everyone can use it .Marketing: Yeah but what if you lose your click-on device ?Project Manager: No you can click it on your television .Marketing: Yeah but if someone dsomebody else uses it in ano other room or something ?Project Manager: {vocalsound} Yeah in another room , yeah .Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}Project Manager: Well yes .Marketing: Nee but it it specificallysays it's uh the the control is lost in the same room .User Interface: {vocalsound}Project Manager: Yeah .Industrial Designer: Mm-hmm .Marketing: So {disfmarker} Well a beeping device would be {disfmarker}ProjectManager: Well we'll have a look at it , yeah .Marketing: Uh furthermore the learning time is a problem . Uh thirty four thirty four per cent um thinks it's it's too uh too difficult to learn . So the the learning curve shouldbe very short uh for the dumbest people should be able to use it .User Interface: {vocalsound}Industrial Designer: I think our uh user uh expert should also consider manual a manual for the remote , of course . Uh{disfmarker}Marketing: Yeah but people don't read manuals .Industrial Designer: I didn't read it ?User Interface: No .Industrial Designer: Oh , alright .Marketing: No .Industrial Designer: {gap} users to uh add one ?Do you think ?User Interface: I don't think {disfmarker}Marketing: I think you should put more time in the in the design of uh pick up and use , than a manual .User Interface: Yeah . Yes you should {disfmarker} Youshould could take a look at it and and and know how it how it's supposed to work . {vocalsound}Industrial Designer: Mm-hmm .Project Manager: Yep .Industrial Designer: Yeah alright . Because they don't use it ?Alright .Project Manager: Well there sh should always be a menu ,Marketing: Yeah . Right .Project Manager: but it c can be very short .Marketing: And it should be consistent with consistent with older remotes .UserInterface: Yeah but nobody reads a manual about a remote control , I think .Project Manager: Yes okay .Industrial Designer: Well maybe for the {disfmarker} If you don't recognise a button who d who d who do I calluh wh when I don't know it ?Marketing: Alright .User Interface: Yeah right . It sh it should be there , the manual . But but not to explain how the remote works . Only {disfmarker} {gap}Marketing: And we don't havemuch time . So it's better to uh put our attention to the the design . So you can pick up and use it , than {disfmarker} I think .Project Manager: Well we are a design team ,User Interface: Hmm .Project Manager: wecan say to some uh writer uh make a manual point .Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Isn't it part of the of the uMarketing: Yeah right , right .Project Manager: SoUser Interface: {vocalsound}Industrial Designer: No .No . Never mind .Project Manager: Well we'll have a look . Um yes ?Marketing: Next point . Um R_S_I_ .User Interface: {vocalsound}Marketing: Well that's about twenty per cent I thought . But uh the designer shoulduh take it uh {vocalsound} should uh {disfmarker} Wie zeg ik dat ? Yeah , consider the consequences of using your remote .Industrial Designer: Consider the m Yeah .Marketing: It should be a good in your hand .{vocalsound}Industrial Designer: Mm-hmm .Project Manager: Yep .Marketing: Right , this is the most important part . Um , we're {disfmarker} Like the requirements said , we're gonna specify of we're gonna target ayounger audience . Um , {vocalsound} that's about sixty per cent of the market , so it's uh quite important . Um research shows that they like to have a little L_C_D_ screen on their on their uh zapping uh device . Uh{disfmarker} I thought it was the age between sixteen and twenty , ninety nine per cent of uh the people like that .Project Manager: Well {disfmarker}Marketing: So it's very important we should definitely have that inour uh designs .Project Manager: Well with twelve Euro fifty as production cost , we can't uh afford an L_C_D_ uh {disfmarker}Industrial Designer: It's going to be expensive . Yeah .User Interface: No .Marketing: Yeahbut {vocalsound} they think it's really important .Project Manager: Yeah .Marketing: So if we want to s If we have a big {disfmarker} {vocalsound} If we make lots of uh of the stuff , maybe we can uh buy it verycheap , I dunno . We have to uh {disfmarker}Project Manager: Well {disfmarker}Industrial Designer: Well we'll uh consider it uh .Project Manager: Yeah well uh it's your your task to uh look into the costs uh of thoseuh {disfmarker}Industrial Designer: We'll think abo we'll think {disfmarker}Marketing: Yeah , I don't know . I don't have any information on that . So {disfmarker} {vocalsound}Project Manager: {vocalsound}NighUser Interface: {vocalsound}Project Manager: I know . {vocalsound}Industrial Designer: No , we'll look we'll look into that later . Alright ?Marketing: Right . And uh another thing is uh speech uh recognition . Theyalso like that ,User Interface: {vocalsound}Marketing: but research is very uh costly . So {disfmarker}User Interface: I think that's uh difficult to realise also .Marketing: Yeah , but {vocalsound} it {vocalsound} itmight be important for the sale .Industrial Designer: We have very demanding clients .Project Manager: It's not yet a standard uh development uh those so {disfmarker}User Interface: {vocalsound} No and we havecustomers in multiple uh countries I think .Project Manager: We shMarketing: Well I do think L_C_D_ is more reachable than the speech recognition .Project Manager: Yeah absolutely .User Interface: Yeah .Marketing:So we might consider L_C_D_ screens .User Interface: {vocalsound} No .Industrial Designer: Yeah , yeah , alright . Well we'll consider both and and see what uh what what we can find , I think .Project Manager: Yep.Industrial Designer: We don't rule them out uh yet .Marketing: Alright .Project Manager: {gap} 'Kay .Marketing: Alright . Um , I think that's it . Um {disfmarker}Project Manager: Alright .Marketing: I think it is sensibleto u uh to take this take these points into the notes .Project Manager: Yes .Marketing: So you can {disfmarker} Right .Project Manager: Well you {disfmarker} I c I can uh still see your presentation .Marketing: Yeah .Right .Project Manager: It's in the {disfmarker} Well uh next um I dunno who is next .User Interface: Oh you go .Industrial Designer: Shall I give a technical talk ?Project Manager: Yes .Industrial Designer: Alright.Project Manager: Well go ahead . {vocalsound}Industrial Designer: Well uh it is my task to uh explain uh or to point out a working design .Project Manager: Yip .Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} We have that here .Okay , how do you enlarge it , so that you can have the {disfmarker}Project Manager: F_ five .Industrial Designer: F_ F_ five .Project Manager: {vocalsound} F_ five .Industrial Designer: Yep .User Interface:{vocalsound}Industrial Designer: Well , the working design ,Marketing: Alright .Project Manager: {vocalsound}Industrial Designer: that's my uh {disfmarker}Marketing: {vocalsound} Next button .{vocalsound}Industrial Designer: Well alright uh , you know who I am and what I do . So uh we have this . It's a bit uh unclear because I wanted to copy paste something . It was originally in black and whiteMarketing:Oh right .Industrial Designer: but it became black and purple .Marketing: Purple {vocalsound} .Industrial Designer: But I think you can read it .User Interface: {vocalsound} {gap}Project Manager:{vocalsound}Marketing: Yeah , yeah , yeah . A bit .Industrial Designer: Um well um I think it's important uh for you to realise the basic function of a remote control . Uh well you can see uh {disfmarker}Marketing:Maybe you can select it . So it uh inverts .Industrial Designer: {gap} And I then can select I can select on the dings {gap} It goes to the next page .Marketing: {gap} the p the whole picture .Project Manager: Click .{vocalsound}Marketing: Nah , uh never mind .Industrial Designer: Well , you can read it ,User Interface: Yeah , go ahead .Industrial Designer: it's not too difficult . Meanwhile , this is a schematic uh um view of uh howa basic remote control works . You have uh basically uh the energy , the power of the of the remote control , uh and the sender , w which is the LED , the the the the the the the the the bulb that sends the the infraredbeam to the , no , to the set .Marketing: Yeah . Alright .Industrial Designer: And uh the source is of course the user . Uh the user interface is um {vocalsound} uh the {vocalsound} the {gap} the buttons of course .UserInterface: {vocalsound}Industrial Designer: And the {vocalsound} the user interface sends uh the the different signals of the different buttons to the chip , and the chip uh sends it to the LED , and the LED sends it tothe receiver . That's the that's the basic idea .Project Manager: Yep .Industrial Designer: Very basic .Marketing: {vocalsound}Industrial Designer: Um well I have uh {vocalsound} uh {vocalsound} put it in a in in in a{vocalsound} a couple of basic steps .Project Manager: {vocalsound}Industrial Designer: Uh the remote uh is basically just waiting for a user to press a key . It does nothing until uh of course uh the key is pressed .The key {gap} a signal to a chip , uh the chip senses the connection . {vocalsound} uh and recognise the key . So {vocalsound} well you understand .Project Manager: {vocalsound}Industrial Designer: The chip uhproduces Morse code , um a specific code to indicate that specific button that is pressed , of course . And it uses transistors in the in the remote control to amplify and to send uh that signal again to the to the LED ,which is the bulb , of course .Project Manager: {vocalsound}Industrial Designer: Now the LED produces an infrared beam and signals the , well it's uh very simple , and signals the uh signals to the sensor on the T_V_set ,Project Manager: Yeah .Marketing: {vocalsound}Industrial Designer: and the T_V_ set uh also recognises the the {vocalsound} the signal , and performs the assigned task .Project Manager: So it is also why wehave to have a button that says uh I'm now busy with a D_V_D_ uh if we had done that . And a button for T_V_ . So {disfmarker}Industrial Designer: Ah bu Yeah , but we don't . Uh we {disfmarker} {vocalsound}UserInterface: {vocalsound}Industrial Designer: No no , but {disfmarker} Yeah . Exactly . Uh well this is uh the basic uh function of a remote .Project Manager: {vocalsound}Industrial Designer: I've some couple of pictureshere . It's a very basic one . And uh {gap} if we if we're going to add an uh an uh L_C_D_ screen to it , it uh won't look anything like this , but {disfmarker} This is very basic uh basically the the shape of um of aremote control . It has uh very little buttons and {disfmarker}User Interface: {vocalsound}Industrial Designer: But it it uh it's it's quite um {disfmarker} Yeah , you can easily recognise the buttons . They're uh farenough apart and an anything . It's not very um uh not very high-tech uhUser Interface: High tech . {vocalsound}Industrial Designer: indeed , and it's not very user-friendly . Uh if you look at the shape , it's uh just a