Lynne Neagle AM: Good morning, everyone. Welcome to the Children, Young People and Education Committee this morning. We've received no apologies for absence. Can I ask if there are any declarations of interestfrom Members, please? No. Okay, thank you. Item 2 this morning is the Children (Abolition of Defence of Reasonable Punishment) (Wales) Bill: Stage 2 proceedings. I'm pleased to welcome Julie Morgan AM, DeputyMinister for Health and Social Services; Karen Cornish, deputy director, children and families division at Welsh Government; and Emma Gammon, lawyer for Welsh Government. Thank you for attending this morningand welcome to the committee. I'm just going to run through the procedures that we're going to follow now. As I said, the purpose of the meeting is to undertake Stage 2 proceedings on the Children (Abolition ofDefence of Reasonable Punishment) (Wales) Bill. For these proceedings, Members should have copies of the marshalled list of amendments, the groupings of the amendments for debate and the voting order for theamendments. The marshalled list of amendments is the list of all amendments tabled, marshalled into the order in which the sections appear in the Bill. The order in which we consider amendments will be the defaultorder—that is, sections 1 to 3 and the long title. You will see from the groupings list that amendments have been grouped to facilitate debate. However, the order in which they're called and moved for decision isdictated by the marshalled list. Members will, therefore, need to follow the two papers, although I will advise Members when I call them whether they're being called to speak in the debate or to move their amendmentsfor a decision. There will be one debate on each group of amendments. Members who wish to speak in a particular group should indicate to me in the usual way. I will call the Deputy Minister to speak on each group. Forthe record, in accordance with the convention agreed by the Business Committee, as Chair I will move amendments in the name of the Deputy Minister. For expediency, I will assume that the Deputy Minister wishes meto move all of her amendments, and I will do so at the appropriate place in the marshalled list. Deputy Minister, if you do not want a particular amendment to be moved, please indicate to me at the relevant point inproceedings. In line with our usual practice, legal advisers to the committee and the Deputy Minister are not expected to provide advice on the record. If Members wish to seek legal advice during proceedings, please doso by passing a note to the legal adviser and, if necessary, we can adjourn. My intention is to try to dispose of all amendments during today's meeting. I will call a short break in proceedings at an appropriate time, ifnecessary. Okay, thank you. So, we will proceed, then, to group 1, which is the duty to promote public awareness. The lead amendment in the group is amendment 1 in the name of the Deputy Minister. I moveamendment 1 in the Deputy Minister's name and call on the Deputy Minister to speak to her amendment and the other amendments in this group.Julie Morgan AM: Thank you very much, Chair. My amendments 1 and 4will place a duty on Welsh Ministers to provide information and increase awareness about the change in the law to ensure that the public are made aware of how the law will change as a result of the defence ofreasonable punishment being abolished and that physical punishment would be prohibited once the Act commences. I tabled these amendments in response to this committee's recommendation—this was arecommendation from this committee in the Stage 1 report, so I have responded to that. I've already made a commitment to a high-intensity awareness-raising campaign over approximately six years from RoyalAssent, should the Bill be passed. I've considered amendments 1A to 1E, which have been tabled by Janet Finch-Saunders, and which relate to the duty to raise awareness. Amendment 1A introduces a reference topublic understanding. We don't think, actually, that this adds anything to the Government amendment, which already mentions awareness. It makes the awareness-raising duty open-ended with no time limit, which isnot necessary. By commencement, messaging around the change in the law will be embedded. The awareness-raising campaign will continue for a number of years. Therefore, an ongoing duty referring specifically tothe law change would not be required. I understand, of course, that the awareness-raising campaign needs to be comprehensive, well planned and to reach out to all those people and all those communities who need tobe aware of the law change, and understand how to respond to it. But I don't think it's helpful or necessary to highlight specific groups, such as visitors to Wales, on the face of the Bill—that's the approach taken inamendment 1E—as it risks placing too much emphasis on certain groups at the expense of others. In relation to children, the committee will know that I'm fully committed to children’s rights, and that Welsh Ministersare already under a duty to have due regard to the rights of children whenever they exercise their functions. An additional due regard requirement, such as the one set out in amendment 1D, relating specifically to theneed to promote awareness among children is not needed. This would be part and parcel of the Welsh Government approach to putting children’s rights at the heart of our policy making. Similarly, I don't think it'snecessary for the Bill to set out specifically the topics that need to be covered in the awareness-raising campaign, as is suggested in amendments 1B and 1C. That level of detail, I don't think, is for the face of the Bill.Information required about parenting support will be considered by the parenting expert group, under the auspices of the Bill’s strategic implementation group, working with my officials and the expert stakeholder groupon the awareness-raising campaign. And, really, their thinking should not be constrained in any way by specifications on the face of the Bill. I think we always need to bear in mind that what the Bill does is remove adefence to an existing criminal offence; it does not create a new offence. And in this context, it doesn't make sense for this Bill to contain a provision requiring the provision of information about how a person may raiseconcerns if it appears to them that a child is being physically punished. As I set out in my letter to this committee responding to recommendation 15 on this point, safeguarding is everyone’s business, and, as now, thepublic have a role in highlighting to relevant services if they are concerned about a child. I'm asking for the support of Members for amendments 1 and 4, and I ask Members to reject amendments 1A to 1E because thiswould place unnecessary provisions on the face of the Bill.Lynne Neagle AM: Thank you, Deputy Minister. Are there other Members who wish to speak? Janet Finch-Saunders.Janet Finch-Saunders AM: Thank you, Chair.I wish to speak to amendments 1A to 1E, which relate to the Deputy Minister's amendment on the duty to promote public awareness. While we believe it is absolutely imperative that the public are made aware of thiscontroversial change in the law, the Deputy Minister's amendment lacks a number of key points that the committee were actually keen to address at Stage 1. An important thread runs throughout each and everyamendment that I've tabled within this group—that of a sustained awareness campaign, which not only stretches beyond the implementation of the Bill, but serves as a duty for future administrations. Amendment 1A:primarily, amendment 1A changes amendment 1 to include the promotion of understanding changes to the law. I don't think it's enough for the Welsh Government to say that the public should be made aware of thecoming into force of section 1 and that a public awareness campaign needs to be sustained until the Welsh Government's objectives have been achieved. Despite the fact that it is intended to change behaviour, theconsequences of this law are far greater than that of organ donation or prohibiting smoking indoors. Instead of an opt-out system or a civil offence, this law will remove a defence for parents, information on which couldbe there on their records for the rest of their lives, potentially separate parents, and could affect employment chances. As such, whilst we agree with the necessity of the awareness campaign, it is important too that theWelsh Government take stock and ensures that parents are not penalised due to a weak awareness campaign. The witnesses we heard before this committee also noted the necessity of ensuring that the publicunderstands—Lynne Neagle AM: Janet, Dawn is asking if you'll take an intervention.Janet Finch-Saunders AM: Yes.Dawn Bowden AM: I just wanted to know—could you give us examples of any other piece of legislationwhere there's been indefinite public awareness campaigns once it's been passed?Janet Finch-Saunders AM: There's a lot of legislation. The first Assembly term when I was here—Dawn Bowden AM: Yes, what I'masking—Janet Finch-Saunders AM: I'm trying to respond—Dawn Bowden AM: What I'm asking for is: can you give us specific examples of where there have been indefinite public awareness campaigns runningindefinitely past the enactment of a piece of legislation?Janet Finch-Saunders AM: The very first term that I was an Assembly Member, we passed 25 pieces of separate legislation. Even today, as I sit here, the publicare not aware of many of those pieces of legislation. This particular piece of legislation will have a profound effect on the parenting of children in Wales. So, therefore, I think there is a necessity for both children andparents to become involved, and I shall speak now—Dawn Bowden AM: With respect, Chair, that's not the question I asked.Janet Finch-Saunders AM: —to my amendments.Lynne Neagle AM: I can call you in thedebate, if you'd like to make a more substantive contribution on this. Yes.Janet Finch-Saunders AM: The witnesses who we heard from before this committee also noted the necessity of ensuring that the publicunderstands the implications. And that's what we're talking about here, Members—the implications of removing this defence. Strikingly, the Office of Police and Crime Commissioner for Gwent stated the following: 'thepotential for public resistance to the Bill through misunderstanding or confusion over it implications may pose the largest barrier to its implementation.' If you are intent on removing the defence of reasonablepunishment, it is therefore not unreasonable to ensure that law-abiding parents fully understand the ramifications of this Bill. Additionally, the committee found that while the current Welsh Government's intention todeliver a public awareness campaign was beyond doubt, future Governments may have less of a commitment. This places further weight on the fact that the Welsh Government should be under a duty to promoteawareness and understanding of the Bill beyond its commencement. Furthermore, the Children (Equal Protection from Assault) (Scotland) Bill quite clearly notes that, under section 2, the Scottish Ministers must takesuch steps as they consider appropriate to promote public awareness and understanding about the effect of section 1 on the abolition for the defence of reasonable punishment. Therefore, I would be grateful if theDeputy Minister can respond as to the reasons why the Welsh Government has deviated from this course of action in their amendment. [Interruption.] Should our amendment be agreed—Lynne Neagle AM: Are youtaking an intervention?Janet Finch-Saunders AM: No. I'd rather crack on, to be honest.Lynne Neagle AM: Okay. I can call you in the debate, Hefin.Janet Finch-Saunders AM: Should our amendment to be agreed, we alsorequest that a printing change be made to ensure that the new heading reflects promoting awareness of the changes to the law made by section 1. Amendment 1B: amendment 1B is in line with the committee'srecommendation 9, which stated that, as part of a public awareness campaign, there should be details about the support available to parents to use alternatives to physical punishment when disciplining their children.During evidence at Stage 1, the witnesses we saw before the committee raised serious concerns about harder-to-reach groups who needed to be made aware of removing the defence. For example, Children in Wales,Action for Children and Play Wales stated that some families and communities may be harder to reach with information and support. Welsh Government needs to make sure that they receive the information they need.Now, while the Deputy Minister states that she would work hard to ensure that harder-to-reach groups receive this information, a duty to provide information on alternatives to physical punishment would ensure thatfuture Welsh Governments would maintain a successful awareness-raising campaign. I note the Deputy Minister accepted the recommendation, through our amendment, but this does not explicitly include a duty toprovide details about support for parents. As will be expanded upon later, the Deputy Minister has relied upon the 'Parenting: Give it Time' campaign to be delivered alongside awareness raising. However, this is only anonline resource and she must be clear about what other avenues will be available to parents who do not have access to the internet or are part of harder-to-reach groups. Amendment 1C: amendment 1C supports thecommittee's recommendation 15 that explains that the Welsh Government should ensure clear advice is provided on what people can do if they have seen or learned of a child being physically assaulted. We urged, atStage 1, that although many professionals were already under a duty to report concerns about physical punishment, regardless of the Bill, other witnesses raised concerns that it could create the potential for claims ofabuse that are unfounded. In particular, some were worried that children, who may not realise the implications of reporting, could make allegations that are actually untrue. While we would expect the awareness-raisingcampaign to include the consequences of false accusations, this could also be reflected among adults, if the public are not sufficiently made aware of how they can report and in what situations they can report a case ofassault.Lynne Neagle AM: Thank you. I've got several speakers. I've got Suzy Davies first, then Dawn Bowden.Suzy Davies AM: Thank you very much, Chair. Thank you Minister, and thank you, Janet, for that. I thinkit's worth just pointing out at this stage that the majority of the amendments that are being made and articulated by Janet there are based on committee recommendations, and those recommendations were made aftertaking evidence from the public at large, but also you as well. So, that suggests that, at that stage, we weren't reassured by the offer that you were making because we felt the need to put these recommendations intoour report. Now, I recognise that you've moved some way on some of these amendments, and we'll been talking about that through the course of the debates on other groups. But the one thing to bear in mind here isthis is legislation, now—that means that this is the instrument of the Assembly, not of Government, and if this Assembly feels that the face of the Bill is unclear on the minimum requirements of a public awarenesscampaign, then we have the right to suggest the things that we would like to see in that public awareness-raising campaign. The list that Janet has given is a minimum. The reason these have been tabled individuallyand independently is that some may be acceptable where others may not be, so it will be disappointing to hear that you're rejecting them all, and the reason they need to go on the face of the Bill is that, if you aregoing to introduce specifics via regulation, at the moment we have no reassurance about how you're going to do that—about what input the Assembly, on behalf of our constituents, could have in designing that publicawareness-raising campaign. Unless you accept some amendments in other groups, that is the position with this Bill: the influence of the Assembly will be zero over the content of an awareness-raising campaign. Interms of it being non-time limited, I think the amendment has been tabled in the way it has not to oblige you to an everlasting, never-ending campaign of awareness raising. But if you bear in mind that, seven yearsafter the introduction of this Bill, there's going to be some reporting on the effectiveness of the Bill, what is the point of doing that if you don't then have an obligation, should the reports require it to be necessary, tocontinue promoting the changes in the law? I accept that that can't go on for centuries, but to actually limit it to two years on an issue that is so sensitive, and which has a reach beyond our boundaries, I think isgenuinely a mistake. Finally, you mention that safeguarding is everyone's business. I think that's true, but I think Janet Finch-Saunders was right to say that members of the public, ordinary individuals, notprofessionals, will need assurance that they're doing the right thing. The amendment as listed is not even there to encourage people to do that, although that can be read in that way, but it is to help them be certainthat they are doing the right thing. If this is going to be up to the individual, as you've said, and the committee itself wasn't reassured that individuals would know what to do, perhaps I can ask you to consider at Stage3, if you're going to reject this amendment, how you can reassure members of the public that, if they are going to intervene on the back of this law, they're making things better, not worse.Lynne Neagle AM: Thank you,Suzy. Dawn.Dawn Bowden AM: My comments, really, relate to ongoing awareness-raising campaigns, which I think all of us would want to see, and would appreciate in any changes in legislation. My point, really, is thatwe have a plethora of legislation that this Assembly has passed in the last 20 years, and I'm not aware of any legislation where, on the face of the Bill we have ongoing awareness-raising campaigns on an indefinitebasis. It seems to me that, for some reason, you seem to be wanting to take a completely different approach to this piece of legislation. From what the Deputy Minister is saying—and perhaps I will get some clarity onthis—there will be an amendment to the legislation that will say that we have an awareness campaign. That awareness campaign can be the subject of consultation with interested parties in terms of what needs to beincluded in it. It could also, I assume, Deputy Minister, be an awareness campaign that can be written into a set of guidance for future use. But the point I'm trying to make is that I don't believe that any piece oflegislation requires ongoing and indefinite awareness-raising campaigns, and particularly in relation to visitors to Wales. Again, we have other pieces of legislation in Wales that are not applicable in the other parts of theUK. I am not aware that there is a necessity for awareness-raising campaigns with visitors coming into Wales on the raft of the other pieces of legislation that we have that they don't. And similarly, when we go to visitcountries that have different legislation, we don't necessarily know what legislation we're going into when we visit that country—you just go there and you accept that you go to a different country and you abide by theirlaws. So, my key point, Chair, is just the necessity of an ongoing, endless awareness campaign being written onto the face of the Bill.Lynne Neagle AM: Thank you, Dawn. Hefin.Hefin David AM: My comments followlogically from Dawn Bowden's comments, particularly in relation to amendments 1D and 1E. What you would be doing is that this Senedd, if this was on the face of the Bill, the duty on Ministers, would be putting theduty on Ministers in law beyond the life of the fifth Senedd, into the next Senedd term, and putting that duty on those newly elected Ministers after that, which, in principle, would be against the principles ofbinding—Lynne Neagle AM: Hefin, are you taking an intervention from Suzy?Hefin David AM: Yes, happy to.Suzy Davies AM: When you've finished your point.Hefin David AM: I'm happy to take it now, because I wasgoing to sum up by agreeing with the point you made, actually.Suzy Davies AM: I'd love that. You referred to this potentially binding Ministers in future Assemblies; at the moment, we've got an implementation periodand a five-year reporting period that takes any reporting on this Act into the Assembly after next. I'm wondering if you're going to have any comments on that when we come to the amendment to change that lateron.Hefin David AM: Well, when we get to that amendment, I'll make comments if I feel it necessary. But at this point in time, we're talking about amendments 1D and 1E, and particularly in relation to 1D and 1E it just


Marketing: {vocalsound} Okay . Oh I totally {disfmarker} Yeah 'cause I moved it . {vocalsound} 'S put it over here . Then we don't have to worry about it .User Interface: {vocalsound} Ready for this ?Project Manager:All set ? Cool . Alright , it is PowerPoint time . I've done more PowerPoints in this particular experiment than I've ever done in my life before this experiment {vocalsound}Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Yeah{vocalsound} .Project Manager: which is kind of fun .User Interface: {vocalsound} Oh man . {vocalsound}Project Manager: So uh here we have our detailed design meeting where we will um look at the prototype andum {vocalsound} {disfmarker} right so um , I finally figured out what this whole second bullet point is about in my {disfmarker} that my coach was sending to me . It means I'm supposed to read the minutes from theprevious meeting .Industrial Designer: Oh really ?Project Manager: I think . {vocalsound}Industrial Designer: Okay .Marketing: Huh .Project Manager: I don't know . Otherwise it's just saying I'm thesecretaryMarketing: {vocalsound} {vocalsound}Project Manager: and I'm {disfmarker} therefore I'm taking the minutes , s so just to go um {vocalsound} just real briefly to go over minutes from last meeting , uh , Iwill open them slowly , no ? Wait for it , wait for it . {vocalsound}Marketing: Yeah that's not you . {vocalsound}Project Manager: No . That's how the {disfmarker}Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}Project Manager:{vocalsound} Wait .User Interface: {vocalsound}Project Manager: This is , this is very high-powered stuff here , double-clicking , there we go . So um basically the moral of the story from our last minute uh{disfmarker} last meeting was that {vocalsound} um we that we had meetings from {disfmarker} uh we had presentations done by the Industrial Designer , uh or from Nathan , and Ron and from Sarah about what wecan do here um and what sort of limitations we're operating with um {disfmarker} uh excuse me what limitations we're operating under , what kind of risk we'd be looking at with some of the various approaches wewere discussing and we essentially came to the conclusion that we should develop a remote with uh voice recognition , I_E_ that had a vaguely non-remote like shape um because you didn't really need to use it as aremote since you could just use your voice . That would include some {disfmarker} mostly just the simple design features for a television operation but with a slide or a fold-out bay for more advanced functions forusers . Um , and uh the uh uh the U_I_D_ and the I_D_ were asked to go ahead and start developing a prototype for us to look at . {vocalsound} So . That's sorted , back to the main {vocalsound} meet here , um , goahead and take it away guys .Industrial Designer: Well . Uh , we have assembled our prototype , um . What's to be said about it ? Um , we took into account a lot of the things that we went over in the last meeting , um. Some of the most important things to consider are that we decided not to go for the touch screen which you can seeProject Manager: Mm-hmm .Industrial Designer: and opted for some very large buttons for theprimary functions , um . This is going to be the on off buttonProject Manager: {vocalsound} {vocalsound}Industrial Designer: and we have these buttons to go through the channels um and then two volume buttonsdown here , d uh we decided those were the most important uh buttons . And then , for the more advanced uh functions there is a slide out panel here um and you can see that there are lots of other things going on .But this actually can slide back in and provides a very nice aesthetic when it's all put away , um . As far as the uh whole visible light thing , we decided to go with the multiple colours coming out ,User Interface:{vocalsound}Marketing: Ah .Project Manager: {vocalsound} Nice . {vocalsound}User Interface: {vocalsound}Industrial Designer: why not ?Marketing: {vocalsound} Fair enough .User Interface: {vocalsound}IndustrialDesigner: Of course , if that's annoying for some people that function can be turned off . Um .Project Manager: {vocalsound} Perfect .Industrial Designer: Go ahead .User Interface: No it's important to {vocalsound} wetalked a quite a bit about uh you know the the interchangeable uh faces and what we've done here is come up with a bit of a natural look hereMarketing: Mm .User Interface: um f we call it fruityMarketing: Right.Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}User Interface: if you will . Um . Right , um ,Marketing: Appropriate , okay .User Interface: of course that's uh interchangeableIndustrial Designer: {vocalsound}User Interface: and uhI think it would be desirable for the uh for the regular product in the in the in the in the first packaging to be something a little bit more subduedMarketing: Mm 'kay .User Interface: but this is kind of something that canbe doneMarketing: It is an option .User Interface: um and as you can see on the television there uh we have the uh voice detector device um on the top there .Project Manager: {vocalsound} Oh , right .IndustrialDesigner: That's this here .Project Manager: {vocalsound}Marketing: Ah . I see .User Interface: Um . So that that will work quite well with with regard to finding this uh contraption . Um , what other things do we seehere , well , um if you give it a touch it does have actually a bit of a spongy feel ,Project Manager: {vocalsound}User Interface: um , so I think that will work well with regards to our market . Um and uh let's see , wellclearly there's gonna be some more colours and what not available . {vocalsound} Um uh do you have anything else to add to that ?Industrial Designer: Um I worried about the materials , it is uh {disfmarker} theentire thing is covered in a rubber coating so it's very durable uh , it's not gonna break like some types of plastic that's dropped . Um , and of course as you can see and if you touch it it does have that nice squishy feel.User Interface: It's actually important to note that the television , uh you know if there's an earthquake or anything like that , that i it actually is edible inside .Project Manager: {vocalsound}Industrial Designer:{vocalsound}User Interface: {vocalsound}Marketing: {vocalsound}Industrial Designer: Fact , I dunno if you noticed , but I wrote the uh the company's name on the telephone screen ,Project Manager: Oh well doneyeah , yeah oh okIndustrial Designer: I thought that was kinda nice .Marketing: Nice .Industrial Designer: This was actually an apple on the inside .Marketing: {vocalsound}Project Manager: {vocalsound}IndustrialDesigner: This {disfmarker}User Interface: {vocalsound}Marketing: Do we need to worry about um rot factors ? {vocalsound}Project Manager: {vocalsound}User Interface: Um {vocalsound} it's encased in a new uhtype of uhMarketing: Oh okay , there's preservatives involved ,Project Manager: {vocalsound}Industrial Designer: Yeah .User Interface: polymer yeah .Marketing: we don't need to worry ,Industrial Designer: We got abit ahead of ourselves ,User Interface: It's fine .Marketing: okay .Industrial Designer: I know we're not talking about making televisions at this point or anything like that , but {disfmarker}User Interface: Hmm.Marketing: Fair enough .Project Manager: {vocalsound} Edible televisions , it's a wave of the future . {vocalsound}Marketing: No but {disfmarker}User Interface: It's pos a possible new product .Marketing:{vocalsound} It's a couple years off at least . Okay .User Interface: Um , but I think that's {disfmarker} I think that sums up the main features of our {disfmarker} of the remote ,Project Manager: Brilliant .IndustrialDesigner: Right .User Interface: um I dunno if you guys have any questions or f whether that uh {disfmarker} whether we need to worry about any uh other marketing areas or anything of that nature . Um , did wecome in under budget ?Industrial Designer: Uh we did , yeah . This cost {disfmarker} well to put this into um production , we're looking at about {disfmarker} what was our goal ? It was twelve fifty Euro um and thisactually came in at about eleven ninety nine .Project Manager: {vocalsound}Industrial Designer: Um , so I was quite pleased with that .User Interface: Mm-hmm .Industrial Designer: One thing that we didn't do um{disfmarker} obviously we had a choice with the buttons whether to use scroll buttons or standard rubber buttons , but we just went for a classic rubber button and um since we did thatMarketing: Mm .IndustrialDesigner: we didn't have to use as many microchips which was quite nice and that's what helped keep the cost down .Project Manager: Brilliant .Industrial Designer: So even though it has a lot of modern technology ,um for example the voice recognition ,Marketing: Mm .Industrial Designer: in a lot of ways it's just a simple remote and um I think if we shopped around for other manufacturers um we might be able to get evencheaper .Marketing: Okay .User Interface: Mm . {vocalsound} Did we talk about the voice recognition uh option ?Industrial Designer: And {disfmarker} Oh no , we haven't talked about that yet have we ?UserInterface: So uh so uh yeah on the back here you all noticed this area here which is actually the voice recognition uh uh consoleProject Manager: {vocalsound}Marketing: Okay .User Interface: and uh I think it's nicelydesigned into the into the overall look .Marketing: Yeah .User Interface: Um , but basically the voice recognition uh incorporates um the latest designs that our research team has been able to cufw uh come up with .Basically uh quite similar to the coffee maker um design that we were talking about earlierMarketing: Mm 'kay .User Interface: and um , I think that uh has given a proven um {vocalsound} ease of use and what not.Industrial Designer: Hmm . Yeah .User Interface: And uh allows features like the remote actually talking back to the user um , so .Marketing: Right .Project Manager: Cool .Industrial Designer: Any questions ?ProjectManager: No , noMarketing: {vocalsound} Do we have um other , for lack of a better word , skins ? Covers ?Project Manager: I think that's {disfmarker} {vocalsound}User Interface: {vocalsound}Marketing: In playnow or are those ones gonna be developed later once we see how the couple we have g go or ?Industrial Designer: Um , do you wanna answer this oneMarketing: Do we know where we stand on that yet ?IndustrialDesigner: or do you want me to answer it ?User Interface: Well we didn't quite have enough material uh {vocalsound} .Marketing: Oh I wasn't expecting a prototypeIndustrial Designer: Yeah , yeah .User Interface: OhI see ,Marketing: I just didn't know {disfmarker} if you guys had any in mind yet . {vocalsound}User Interface: right , um .Industrial Designer: Um , well {vocalsound} as you can see this is just a most superficial layerand um it'd be very easy to put another layer of something else like {disfmarker}Marketing: Okay . Just veneer really ,User Interface: Right .Marketing: yeah . Okay .User Interface: Actually this bottom red ring herejust unclipsMarketing: Mm-hmm .User Interface: and then you put a a new a new uh a new plate on top of that .Marketing: And the whole thing {disfmarker}Project Manager: {vocalsound}Marketing: OkayUserInterface: So I mean there are {disfmarker} I {disfmarker}Marketing: RightUser Interface: we definitely priced out a spongy {disfmarker} even spongier non-natural look um materialsMarketing: Yeah . There's{disfmarker} Okay .User Interface: which I think worked out fine . We also continued on with the ideas that f following uh Apple's colour schemes with the kind of the uh light orange and the green .Marketing: Mm 'kay .Okay , very cool .Industrial Designer: It's not it's not quite a a face plate , it's more like a pseudo-face plate because it's simple enoughMarketing: Okay .Industrial Designer: that in the factory it could {disfmarker} wecould very easily put a different one on it , it locks into place such that , you know , it's pretty permanent but at the same time , if we wanna go the other way it's just a matter of a couple of adjustments and we couldgo the face plate wayMarketing: Okay .Industrial Designer: if you know what I mean .Marketing: Yep . It's still an option if we need it .Industrial Designer: Yeah .Marketing: Very cool , nice job .Project Manager: Right ,yeah thanks guys that's very , very good work . I like it , brilliant . {vocalsound} Um , {vocalsound} what we need to discuss now is the finance of it , um I got me {disfmarker} you've got {disfmarker} you provided anumber that actually sounds quite nice . Um the trouble is I was just given this by finance . Um , it's a spreadsheet of the parts {vocalsound}Industrial Designer: Oh .Project Manager: and I've just tentatively put inwhat it's going to look like um .Industrial Designer: Ooh .Project Manager: I'm just gonna clear this out real quickly , but it looks like {disfmarker} So we'll just {disfmarker} if we can just itemize what's in here , we'vegot this {disfmarker} it's a solar cell thing right ?Industrial Designer: RightProject Manager: With a back-up battery ?Industrial Designer: uh we didn't really touch on that but it it's in there ,Project Manager: With the baokay . UmIndustrial Designer: yep .Project Manager: and {disfmarker}User Interface: The voice recognition area actually doubles as uh as the solar cell area . Yeah .Project Manager: Clever , clever , well done . Um soI guess that would mean we've got a bit of a um {disfmarker} {vocalsound} It's a s a speaker and a sensor at the same time isn't it ?Industrial Designer: Yeah , yeah . It's just making use of the same space and thesame materials ,Marketing: Mm-hmm .Project Manager: Okay . Um and the case , it's more of a single-curved case , I guess would be that {disfmarker} be the general {disfmarker}Industrial Designer: Yeah , one bigcurve I guess you could say .Marketing: Mm-hmm .Project Manager: {vocalsound} Um and we've got a rubber skin material basically throughout . Um . Push button interface um with this other drop-down so maybewe've got two push button interfaces don't we ?Industrial Designer: Yeah , mm-hmm .Project Manager: Um . And um a special {disfmarker} I guess it's uh {disfmarker} we've got a sort of a wood materi a rubbery typematerial that {disfmarker} throughout ,Industrial Designer: Yeah , special .Project Manager: yeah .Industrial Designer: And s I guess you have to mark special colour and special form as well , don't you ? 'Cause it i it isvery unconventional ,Project Manager: {vocalsound} Yeah , it's it's quite unique .Industrial Designer: I like to think of it as unconventional .Project Manager: I like it , yeah it's {disfmarker} So it looks likeMarketing: Mcome in at sixteen ?Project Manager: a bit over budget , um .Industrial Designer: Oh . Huh , doesn't match up does it ?User Interface: {vocalsound}Marketing: {vocalsound}Project Manager: So what we could doperhaps , a simple fix would maybe to switch away from the solar cells {vocalsound} um or take out the back-up battery . Uh {disfmarker}Industrial Designer: How do you feel about that ?User Interface: I mean I thinkthat uh if we're talking about it being one of our main selling features , being environmental and without the batteries and what not , although it does still have a battery so I'm not sure that {disfmarker} you know whatthe sell is on that .Marketing: Yeah .Industrial Designer: I mean we could take we could take the battery out of it you see and it'd probably work ninety nine per cent of the time but you're gonna have to set up a callcentre for that one per cent of the time when people are calling and saying oh look my remote isn't workingUser Interface: {vocalsound}Project Manager: Mm-hmm . Mm-hmm .Industrial Designer: what am I gonna do?Marketing: Mm k .Industrial Designer: People'd be real upset . I think in the long-run it's better to keep the battery ,Marketing: True .Industrial Designer: it's hard to scrap the whole cell battery idea 'cause that's sointegral to the theme that we have .Project Manager: Hmm . {vocalsound} What's difficult , we have all these things integral to the um to the design of it that we just can't back out of now ,Marketing: Nah .ProjectManager: it would have to be {disfmarker} seems like we'd have to go back to square one in a way . Um if we were gonna try to undo one bit we'd probably have to undo most of it , um {disfmarker}User Interface:{vocalsound}Industrial Designer: Yeah .Marketing: {vocalsound} Although we don't wanna get rid of the whole environmental {disfmarker} I mean obviously the solar cell is a big piece of the way we're marketing thisas like a natural , new thing , but honestly if we cut that one piece out we're actually coming in under budget if I've done my math correctly .Industrial Designer: Hmm .User Interface: I mean you might be able to swayme on the idea that {disfmarker} we {disfmarker} our main selling point could be already this voice recognition thingMarketing: I mean {disfmarker}User Interface: I mean that's what sets us apartMarketing: Which ,it's {disfmarker}User Interface: right ?Marketing: yeah that's what setting us into this young market , I mean that's where we started from , so {disfmarker} {vocalsound} I don't know , and I mean you know perhapswhen the cell technology comes down in price we can bring that back into the game but it looks like at this point that may be out of our league .Industrial Designer: Right .User Interface: And the reality is you know , forme from an ideological stand point , I'd like to stick with the uh the solar cell , but I h kind of have to throw myself in the in the business structure model hereMarketing: Right . Yeah .Industrial Designer: Right .UserInterface: and uh you know I think I think that I think that we need to come to a compromise hereProject Manager: It's either or .Marketing: Yeah .User Interface: and maybe move ahead with the project , without thesolar cell .Industrial Designer: Yeah . I guess we might have to do that .Marketing: I think unfortunately that's our best option .Industrial Designer: It's the only way we're gonna get below our uh goal isn't it ? Of twelvefifty .Marketing: Mm .Project Manager: 'Cause we can't remove the push buttons 'cause they're {vocalsound}Industrial Designer: Yeah , {vocalsound} .Marketing: {vocalsound} It {disfmarker} kind of{disfmarker}Project Manager: um and we can't get rid of the uh {disfmarker} I mean removing the {disfmarker}User Interface: {vocalsound} Savings .Marketing: yeah .Project Manager: changing the case wouldn't beso much of a {vocalsound} mm-mm , um , nor would changing the case materials .Marketing: Mm-mm .Project Manager: Um . So yeah that looks like to be the only thing . So that would be the {disfmarker}Marketing:Yeah .Project Manager: it's a major change but {disfmarker} Yeah . Alright , soIndustrial Designer: Gotta do what you gotta do .Project Manager: we're in agreement on that .Marketing: Unfortunately I think we are.User Interface: No , I think that was a good compromise you brought forward Sarah .Project Manager: {vocalsound} Right . Moving along swiftly . Um , so I guess now we just go to the project evaluation which I willallow Sarah to take over .Marketing: That would be me . Um cord ?Project Manager: Ah of course , sorry .Marketing: No problem .Project Manager: Whoosh .Marketing: Can you reach ,User Interface: Yep .Marketing:that would be great , thank you .Project Manager: {vocalsound} That'd be great {vocalsound}Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}User Interface: {vocalsound}Marketing: {vocalsound} I didn't even do that one onpurpose either ,User Interface: {vocalsound}Marketing: damn . Okay , um , basically I was just evaluating um {vocalsound} from what we know of how our product's working right now with the criteria that we set atthe beginning of {disfmarker} these are the things we needed to do , these are the things that look like we feel they're important . Um so I was looking at basic design things , does it fulfil its functions as a remote ? Isthe design what we wanted it to do ? I are technologies up to where we hoped they would be and does it fulfil the aesthetic qualities that our original market research was looking for ? Um . Basic questions like , youknow , does it turn on ? Does it respond to voice recognition ? And overall , in general , it looks like it's coming up to par .Industrial Designer: Mm .Marketing: Um , the only thing is with with the pull-out panel , that is ,can it take some adjusting because it's a new sort of interface , um that looked like it was coming up rough , but then , once you get used to it , it does make a lot of sense .Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Reallygood .Marketing: So I think overall we're headed in the right direction . {vocalsound} So .User Interface: They like that spongy feel .Project Manager: {vocalsound}Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}Marketing: Yeah . Itlooks like it's going over well , soUser Interface: And the paging function works well ,Industrial Designer: Six ?User Interface: that's good to hear ,Marketing: we're we're good yeah .User Interface: we worked hard on


Grad A: OK , we 're recording .Professor F: We can say the word " zero " all we want ,PhD G: I 'm doing someProfessor F: but just {disfmarker}PhD G: square brackets , coffee sipping , square brackets .PhD B: That 'snot allowed , I think .Postdoc C: Cur - curly brackets .Grad E: Is that voiced or unvoiced ?Grad A: Curly brackets .PhD B: Curly brackets .Professor F: Curly brackets .Grad A: Right .PhD B: Oops .Professor F: Well ,correction for transcribers .PhD G: Mmm ! {comment} {vocalsound} Gar - darn !Professor F: Yeah .Postdoc C: Channel two .Grad A: Do we use square brackets for anything ?Postdoc C: Yeah . Uh {disfmarker}Grad E:These poor transcribers .Professor F: uPostdoc C: Not ri not right now . I mean {disfmarker} No .PhD D: There 's gonna be some zeros from this morning 's meeting because I noticed thatProfessor F: uPhD D: Barry , Ithink maybe you turned your mike off before the digits were {disfmarker} Oh , was it during digits ? Oh , so it doesn't matter .Professor F: Yeah .Grad A: It 's still not a good idea .PhD B: So it 's not {disfmarker} it 'snot that bad if it 's at the end , but it 's {disfmarker} in the beginning , it 's {pause} bad .PhD D: Yeah . Yeah .Grad A: Yeah , you wanna {disfmarker} you wanna keep them on so you get {pause} good noise{disfmarker} noise floors , through the whole meeting .Postdoc C: That 's interesting . Hmm .Professor F: Uh , I probably just should have left it on . Yeah I did have to run , but {disfmarker}Grad E: Is there any way tochange that in the software ?Grad A: Change what in the software ?Grad E: Where like you just don't {disfmarker} like if you {disfmarker} if it starts catching zeros , like in the driver or something {disfmarker} in thecard , or somewhere in the hardware {disfmarker} Where if you start seeing zeros on w across one channel , you just add some {vocalsound} random , @ @ {comment} noise floor {disfmarker} like a small noise floor.Grad A: I mean certainly we could do that , but I don't think that 's a good idea . We can do that in post - processing if {disfmarker} if the application needs it .Grad E: Yeah .PhD B: Manual post - processing .ProfessorF: Well , I {disfmarker} u I actually don't know what the default {comment} is anymore as to how we 're using the {disfmarker} the front - end stuff but {disfmarker} for {disfmarker} for {disfmarker} when we usethe ICSI front - end ,Grad A: As an argument .Professor F: but um , there is an {disfmarker} there is an o an option in {disfmarker} in RASTA , which , um , {vocalsound} in when I first put it in , uh , back in the dayswhen I actually wrote things , uh , {vocalsound} I {pause} did actually put in a random bit or so that was in it ,Grad E: OK .Professor F: but {vocalsound} then I realized that putting in a random bit was equivalent toadding uh {disfmarker} adding flat spectrum ,Grad E: Right .Professor F: and it was a lot faster to just add a constant to the {disfmarker} {vocalsound} to the spectrum . So then I just started doing thatGrad E: Mmm .OK .Professor F: instead of calling " rand " {comment} or something ,Grad E: Right .Professor F: so . So it d it does that . Gee ! Here we all are !Grad A: Uh , so the only agenda items were Jane {disfmarker} was Janewanted to talk about some of the IBM transcription process .Professor F: There 's an agenda ?Grad A: I sort of {vocalsound} condensed the three things you said into that . And then just {disfmarker} I only have like ,this afternoon and maybe tomorrow morning to get anything done before I go to Japan for ten days . So if there 's anything that n absolutely , desperately needs to be done , you should let me know now .Professor F:Uh , and you just sent off a Eurospeech paper , so .PhD G: Right . I hope they accept it .Professor F: Right .PhD G: I mean , I {disfmarker} both actu as {disfmarker} as a submission and {disfmarker} {vocalsound}you know , as a paper . Um {disfmarker} but {disfmarker}Grad A: Well yeah , you sent it in {pause} late .Professor F: Yeah , I guess you {disfmarker} first you have to do the first one ,Grad A: Yeah .Professor F: andthen {disfmarker} Yeah .PhD G: We actually exceeded the delayed deadline by o another day , so .PhD B: Oops .Professor F: Oh they {disfmarker} they had some extension that they announced or something ?PhD G:Well yeah . Liz had sent them a note saying " could we please {pause} have another " {comment} {pause} I don't know , " three days " or something , and they said yes .PhD D: And then she said " Did I say three?Grad A: Oh ,PhD D: I meant four . "Grad A: that was the other thing uh ,PhD G: But uGrad A: uh , Dave Gelbart sent me email , I think he sent it to you too , {comment} that um , there 's a special topic , section in siin Eurospeech on new , corp corpors corpora . And it 's not due until like May fifteenth .Professor F: Oh this isn't the Aurora one ?Grad A: No .Professor F: It 's another one ?Grad A: It 's a different one .PhD B: No it 's{disfmarker} Yeah . Yeah .Grad E: Huh !Grad A: And uh ,Professor F: Oh !PhD B: I got this mail from {disfmarker}Grad A: I s forwarded it to Jane as I thought being the most relevant person . Um {disfmarker} So , Ithought it was highly relevant {disfmarker}Postdoc C: Yeah I 'm {disfmarker}Professor F: That 's {disfmarker}Grad A: have you {disfmarker} did you look at the URL ?Postdoc C: Yeah . I think so too . Um , I haven'tgotten over to there yet ,Grad A: Mm - hmm .Postdoc C: but what {disfmarker} our discussion yesterday , I really {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I wanna submit one .PhD B: Was this {pause} SmartKom message ? Ithink {pause} Christoph Draxler sent this ,Postdoc C: Yeah . And , you offered to {disfmarker} to join me , if you want me to .Grad A: I 'll help ,PhD B: yeah .Grad A: but obviously I can't , really do , most of it ,PostdocC: Yeah . Yeah , that 's right .PhD G: I think several people {disfmarker} sent this ,Grad A: so .PhD B: Yeah .Postdoc C: Uh - huh .PhD G: yeah .Grad A: But any {disfmarker} any help you need I can certainly provide.Professor F: Well ,PhD G: Yeah .Professor F: that 's {disfmarker} that 's a great idea .PhD G: Well {disfmarker} there {disfmarker} there were some interesting results in this paper , though . For instance that Morgan{disfmarker} uh , accounted for fifty - six percent of the Robustness meetings in terms of number of words .Grad A: Wow .Postdoc C: In {disfmarker} in terms of what ? In termPhD G: Number of words .Postdoc C: One? Wow ! OK .Grad A: That 's just cuz he talks really fast .Postdoc C: Do you mean ,Professor F: n No .Grad A: I knowPhD B: Oh . Short words .Postdoc C: because {disfmarker} is it partly , eh , c correctly identifiedwords ? Or is it {disfmarker} or just overall volume ?PhD G: No . Well , according to the transcripts .Grad A: But re well regardless . I think it 's {disfmarker} he 's {disfmarker} he 's in all of them ,Postdoc C: Oh . OK.Professor F: Yeah .PhD G: I mean , we didn't mention Morgan by nameGrad A: and he talks a lot .PhD G: we just {disfmarker}Grad A: One participant .Professor F: Well {disfmarker} we have now , but{disfmarker}PhD G: We {disfmarker} we {disfmarker} we {disfmarker} something about {disfmarker}Grad A: Did you identify him as a senior {pause} member ?PhD G: No , we as identify him as the persondominating the conversation .Professor F: Well .Grad A: Yeah .Postdoc C: OK .Professor F: I mean I get these AARP things , but I 'm not se really senior yet , but {disfmarker}PhD G: RightProfessor F: Um ,PhD G: Hmm.Professor F: but uh , other than that delightful result , what was the rest of the paper about ?PhD G: Um , well it was about {disfmarker} it had three sectionsProfessor F: You sent it to me but I haven't seen it yet .PhDG: uh {disfmarker} three kinds of uh results , if you will . Uh , the one was that the {disfmarker} just the {disfmarker} the amount of overlapGrad A: The good , the bad , and the ugly .PhD G: um , s in terms of{disfmarker} in terms of number of words and also we computed something called a " spurt " , which is essentially a stretch of speech with uh , no pauses exceeding five hundred milliseconds . Um , and we computedhow many overlapped i uh spurts there were and how many overlapped words there were . {vocalsound} Um , for four different {pause} corpora , the Meeting Recorder meetings , the Robustness meetings Switchboardand CallHome , and , found {disfmarker} and sort of compared the numbers . Um , and found that the , uh , you know , as you might expect the Meeting Recorder {pause} meetings had the most overlap uh , but nextwere Switchboard and CallHome , which both had roughly the same , almost identical in fact , and the Robustness meetings were {disfmarker} had the least , so {disfmarker} One sort of unexpected result there is thatuh two - party telephone conversations have {vocalsound} about the same amount of overlap ,Grad A: I 'm surprised .PhD G: sort of in gen you know {disfmarker} order of magnitude - wise as , uh {disfmarker} asface - to - face meetings with multiple {disfmarker}Grad A: I have {disfmarker} I had better start changing all my slides !PhD G: Yeah . Also , I {disfmarker} in the Levinson , the pragmatics book , {comment} in youknow , uh , textbook , {vocalsound} there 's {disfmarker} I found this great quote where he says {vocalsound} you know {disfmarker} you know , how people {disfmarker} it talks about how uh {disfmarker} how{disfmarker} how people are so good at turn taking ,Postdoc C: Mm - hmm . Yeah . Yeah .PhD G: and {vocalsound} so {disfmarker} they 're so good that {vocalsound} generally , u the overlapped speech does not{disfmarker} is less than five percent .Postdoc C: Oh , that 's interesting . Yeah .PhD G: So , this is way more than five percent .Grad E: Did he mean face {disfmarker} like face - to - face ? Or {disfmarker} ?PhD G:Well , in real conversations ,Grad E: Hmm .PhD G: everyday conversations .Postdoc C: Mm - hmm .PhD G: It 's s what these conversation analysts have been studying for years and years there .Postdoc C: Mm - hmm.PhD B: But {disfmarker}Postdoc C: Well , of course , no , it doesn't necessarily go against what he said , cuz he said " generally speaking " . In order to {disfmarker} to go against that kind of a claim you 'd have to bigcanvassing .Grad A: Hmm .PhD B: And in fPhD G: Well , he {disfmarker} he made a claim {disfmarker}Grad A: Well {disfmarker}PhD G: Well {disfmarker}Grad A: PhD B: But {disfmarker}Professor F: Yeah , we{disfmarker} we have pretty limited sample here .PhD B: Five percent of time or five percent of what ?Grad A: Yeah , I was gonna ask that too .Postdoc C: Yeah .PhD B: Yeah .Postdoc C: Exactly .PhD G: Well it 's time.PhD B: Yeah , so {disfmarker}Postdoc C: It 's {disfmarker} i it 's not against his conclusion ,PhD G: So {disfmarker} {vocalsound} but still {disfmarker} but still {disfmarker} uPostdoc C: it just says that it 's a bi bellcurve , and that , {vocalsound} you have something that has a nice range , in your sampling .PhD G: Yeah . So there are slight {disfmarker} There are differences in how you measure it , but still it 's {disfmarker}{vocalsound} You know , the difference between um {disfmarker} between that number and what we have in meetings , which is more like , {vocalsound} you know , close to {disfmarker} in meetings like these , uh{disfmarker} you know , close to twenty percent .Postdoc C: Mm - hmm . Mm - hmm .Professor F: But what was it like , say , in the Robustness meeting , for instance ?PhD G: That {disfmarker}Grad A: But{disfmarker}PhD G: Robustness meeting ? It was {vocalsound} about half of the r So , {vocalsound} in terms of number of words , it 's like seventeen or eigh eighteen percent for the Meeting Recorder meetings and{vocalsound} about half that for , {vocalsound} uh , the Robustness .Professor F: Maybe ten percent ?Grad A: But I don't know if that 's really a fair way of comparing between , multi - party , conversations and two -party conversations . Yeah . I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I don't know .PhD B: Then {disfmarker} then {disfmarker} then you have to {disfmarker}Grad A: I mean that 's just something {disfmarker}PhD D: Yeah , Ijust wonder if you have to normalize by the numbers of speakers or something .Postdoc C: Yeah .PhD B: Then {disfmarker} Yeah , then normalize by {disfmarker} by something like that ,Postdoc C: Yeah , that 's agood point .PhD G: Well , we didn't get to look at that ,PhD B: yeah .Postdoc C: Yeah .PhD G: but this obvious thing to see if {disfmarker} if there 's a dependence on the number of uh {disfmarker} participants.Postdoc C: Good idea .Grad A: I mean {disfmarker} I bet there 's a weak dependence . I 'm sure it 's {disfmarker} it 's not a real strong one .PhD B: Yeah .PhD G: Right .Grad A: Right ? Because youPhD D: Cuz noteverybody talks .Grad A: Right .PhD G: Right .PhD D: Yeah .Grad A: You have a lot of {disfmarker} a lot of two - party , subsets within the meeting .PhD G: Right .Postdoc C: Uh - huh .Grad A: Well regardless{disfmarker} it 's an interesting result regardless .PhD G: So {disfmarker} Right .Postdoc C: Yes , that 's right .PhD G: And {disfmarker} and {disfmarker} and then {disfmarker} and we also d computed this both withand without backchannels ,Postdoc C: Mm - hmm .PhD G: so you might think that backchannels have a special status because they 're essentially just {disfmarker}Grad A: Uh - huh . So , did {disfmarker} we all said "uh - huh " and nodded at the same time ,PhD G: R right .Grad A: so .PhD G: But , even if you take out all the backchannels {disfmarker} so basically you treat backchannels l as nonspeech , as pauses ,Grad A: Mm -hmm .Professor F: Mm - hmm .PhD G: you still have significant overlap . You know , it goes down from maybe {disfmarker} For Switchboard it goes down from {disfmarker} I don't know {disfmarker} f um{disfmarker} {comment} I don't know {disfmarker} f fourteen percent of the words to maybe {vocalsound} uh I don't know , eleven percent or something {disfmarker} it 's {disfmarker} it 's not a dramatic change,Grad A: Mm - hmm .PhD G: so it 's {disfmarker} Anyway , so it 's uh {disfmarker} That was {disfmarker} that was one set of {pause} results , and then the second one was just basically the {disfmarker}{vocalsound} the stuff we had in the {disfmarker} in the HLT paper on how overlaps effect the {pause} recognition performance .Postdoc C: Hmm .Grad A: Nope . Right .Professor F: Mm - hmm .PhD G: And werescored things um , a little bit more carefully . We also fixed the transcripts in {disfmarker} in numerous ways . Uh , but mostly we added one {disfmarker} one number , which was what if you {pause} uh , basicallyscore ignoring all {disfmarker} So {disfmarker} so the {disfmarker} the conjecture from the HLT results was that {vocalsound} most of the added recognition error is from insertions {vocalsound} due to backgroundspeech . So , we scored {vocalsound} all the recognition results , {vocalsound} uh , in such a way that the uh {disfmarker}Grad A: Oh by the way , who 's on channel four ? You 're getting a lot of breath .PhD B: Yeah .I j was just wondering .Grad E: That 's {disfmarker}PhD B: Yeah .Grad E: That 's me .PhD G: uh , well Don 's been working hard .Grad E: That 's right .PhD G: OK , so {disfmarker} {vocalsound} so if you have theforeground speaker speaking here , and then there 's some background speech , may be overlapping it somehow , um , and this is the time bin that we used , then of course you 're gonna get insertion errors here andhere .Grad A: Right .PhD G: Right ? So we scored everything , and I must say the NIST scoring tools are pretty nice for this , where you just basically ignore everything outside of the , {vocalsound} uh , region that wasdeemed to be foreground speech . And where that was we had to use the t forced alignment , uh , results from s for {disfmarker} so {disfmarker} That 's somewhat {disfmarker} that 's somewhat subject to error , butstill we {disfmarker} we {disfmarker} {vocalsound} Uh , Don did some ha hand - checking and {disfmarker} and we think that {disfmarker} based on that , we think that the results are you know , valid , although ofcourse , some error is gonna be in there . But basically what we found is after we take out these regions {disfmarker} so we only score the regions that were certified as foreground speech , {comment} {vocalsound}the recognition error went down to almost {vocalsound} uh , the {pause} level of the non - overlapped {pause} speech . So that means that {vocalsound} even if you do have background speech , if you can somehowseparate out or find where it is , {vocalsound} uh , the recognizer does a good job ,Grad A: That 's great .PhD B: Yeah .PhD G: even though there is this backGrad A: Yeah , I guess that doesn't surprise me , because ,with the close - talking mikes , the {disfmarker} the signal will be so much stronger .PhD G: Right . Right .Professor F: Mm - hmm .PhD G: Mm - hmm . Um ,Grad A: What {disfmarker} what sort of normalization doyou do ?PhD G: so {disfmarker} Uh , well , we just {disfmarker} @ @ {comment} we do {disfmarker} u you know , vitGrad A: I mean in you recognizer , in the SRI recognizer .PhD G: Well , we do uh , VTL{disfmarker} {vocalsound} vocal tract length normalization , w and we uh {disfmarker} you know , we {disfmarker} we uh , {vocalsound} make all the features have zero mean and unit variance .Grad A: Over anentire utterance ?Professor F: And {disfmarker}Grad A: Or windowed ?PhD G: Over {disfmarker} over the entire c over the entire channel .PhD B: Don't {pause} train {disfmarker}PhD G: Over the {disfmarker}GradA: Hmm .PhD G: but you know . Um , now we didn't re - align the recognizer for this . We just took the old {disfmarker} So this is actually a sub - optimal way of doing it ,Grad A: Right .Professor F: Right .PhD G: right? So we took the old recognition output and we just scored it differently . So the recognizer didn't have the benefit of knowing where the foreground speech {disfmarker} a startProfessor F: Were you including the{disfmarker} the lapel {pause} in this ?PhD G: Yes .Professor F: And did the {disfmarker} did {disfmarker} did the la did the {disfmarker} the problems with the lapel go away also ? Or {disfmarker}PhD G: Um , it{disfmarker} Yeah .Professor F: fray for {disfmarker} for insertions ?PhD G: It u not per {disfmarker} I mean , not completely , but yes ,Professor F: Less so .PhD G: dramatically . So we have to um{disfmarker}Professor F: I mean , you still {disfmarker}PhD G: Well I should bring the {disfmarker} should bring the table with results . Maybe we can look at it {pause} Monday .Professor F: I would presume that youstill would have somewhat higher error with the lapel for insertions than {disfmarker}PhD G: Yes . It 's {disfmarker} It 's {disfmarker}Professor F: Yeah .PhD G: Yes . Yeah .Professor F: Cuz again , looking forward tothe non - close miked case , I think that we s still {disfmarker}PhD G: Mm - hmm .Grad A: I 'm not looking forward to it .Professor F: i it 's the high signal - to - noise ratioPhD G: Right .Professor F: here that{disfmarker} that helps you .PhD G: u s Right . So {disfmarker} so that was number {disfmarker} that was the second set of {disfmarker} uh , the second section . And then , {vocalsound} the third thing was , welooked at , {vocalsound} {vocalsound} uh , what we call " interrupts " , although that 's {disfmarker} that may be {vocalsound} a misnomer , but basically {vocalsound} we looked at cases where {disfmarker} Uh , sowe {disfmarker} we used the punctuation from the original transcripts and we inferred the beginnings and ends of sentences . So , you know {disfmarker}Postdoc C: Di - did you use upper - lower case also , or not?PhD G: Um {disfmarker}Postdoc C: U upper lower case or no ?PhD G: Hmm ?Postdoc C: OK .PhD G: No , we only used , you know , uh periods , uh , question marks and {pause} exclamation . And we know that there's th that 's not a very g I mean , we miss a lot of them ,Postdoc C: Yeah . That 's OK but {disfmarker}PhD G: but {disfmarker} but it 's f i iPostdoc C: Comma also or not ?PhD G: No commas . No . And then{vocalsound} we looked at locations where , uh , if you have overlapping speech and someone else starts a sentence , you know , where do these {disfmarker} where do other people start their {vocalsound} turns{disfmarker} not turns really , but you know , sentences ,PhD B: Ah .PhD G: um {disfmarker} So we only looked at cases where there was a foreground speaker and then at the to at the {disfmarker} so the{disfmarker} the foreground speaker started into their sentence and then someone else started later .PhD B: Somewhere in between the start and the end ?PhD G: OK ? And so what {disfmarker}PhD B: OK .PhD G:Sorry ?PhD B: Somewhere in between the start and the end of the foreground ?PhD G: Yes . Uh , so that such that there was overlap between the two sentences .PhD B: Yeah .PhD G: So , the {disfmarker} the question


The Acting Chair (Mr. Bruce Stanton (Simcoe North, CPC)): Honourable members, I call this meeting to order. Welcome to the 15thmeeting of the House of Commons Special Committee on the COVID-19 Pandemic. Thiswill be a hybrid meeting. Members will be participating via video conference or in person.  I will remind you that in order to avoid issues with sound, members participating in person should not also be connecting byvideo conference. In order to ensure that those joining the meeting via video conference can be seen and heard by those in the chamber, two screens have been set up here on either side of the Speaker's chair, andmembers in the chamber can listen to the floor audio or to interpretation using the earpieces on their desks. Before speaking, please wait until I recognize you by name and please direct your remarks through the chair.For those joining by video conference, I'd like to remind you to leave your microphones on mute when you are not speaking. Also, please note that if you want to speak in English, you need to be on the English channelfor interpretation, and if you want to speak French, you should do so on the French channel. Should you wish to alternate between the two languages, please change to the channel for the language that you happen tobe using at the time. Should members participating by video conference need to request the floor outside their designated speaking times, they should activate their mic and state that they have a point of order. Thosein the Chamber can rise in the usual way. Please note that today's proceedings will be televised in the same way as a typical sitting of the House. We will now proceed to ministerial announcements. I invite the RightHon. Prime Minister to take the floor.Right Hon. Justin Trudeau (Papineau, Lib.): Thank you, Mr.Chair. I rise today to address what so many people of colour live with every day. Over the past few days, we've seenhorrific reports of police violence against black men and women south of the border, but these are not isolated incidents or elsewhere problems. Prejudice, discrimination and violence are a lived reality for far too manypeople. They are a result of systems that far too often condone, normalize, perpetrate and perpetuate inequality and injustice against people of colour. As a country, we are not concerned bystanders simply watchingwhat is happening next door. We are part of it. The calls for justice, for equality and for peace are found echoed in our communities, because anti-black racism is happening here, everywhere in Canada, every singleday. This is something that our own staff, cabinet ministers and colleagues face even in these halls. Over the past few days, I've heard many of these personal stories directly from them. I'm not just talking about actsof violence. I'm also talking about microaggressions, which many of us may not even see. That is the daily reality of far too many racialized Canadians, and it needs to stop. When it comes to being an ally, I have madeserious mistakes in the past, mistakes that I deeply regret and continue to learn from. I want to thank my colleagues, community leaders and fellow Canadians for opening my eyes to what is really going on in ourcommunities and for helping me better understand both privilege and power. I'm not perfect, but not being perfect is not a free pass to not do the right thing. It's not an excuse to not step up, stand up for each other,be an ally. I know that for so many people listening right now, the last thing you want to hear is another speech on racism from a white politician. I'm not here today to describe a reality I do not know or to speak to apain I have not felt. I'm here because I want you to know that our government is listening. We hear your calls for justice, equality and accountability. We acknowledge your frustration, your anger, your heartbreak. Wesee you.  Since coming to office, our government has taken many concrete steps to fight anti-black racism, systemic discrimination and injustice across the country. We are working directly with the communities andtheir leaders to close the gaps that persist in Canada. For example, we have provided $9million to support programs for black Canadian youth. We have made significant investments to enable the Public Health Agencyof Canada to provide more mental health services to people who have experienced racism or intergenerational trauma. We are helping community organizations to obtain funding to purchase equipment or lease space.We have also created the anti-racism secretariat, which has an envelope of $4.6million, to address systemic barriers, such as employment, justice and social participation, that perpetuate injustice. We have madeprogress, but we know the work is far from being done.  Over the past five years, our government has worked with communities to recognize and address injustices. We've taken action to support communityorganizations, invest in better data and fight racism. While we've made some progress, there is still so much more to do, because here are the facts in Canada: Anti-black racism is real. Unconscious bias is real.Systemic discrimination is real. For millions of Canadians, it is their daily, lived reality. The pain and damage it causes are real too. Mr. Chair, every Canadian who has felt the weight of oppression, every student whohas the courage to demand a better future, every person who marches and posts and reads and fights, from Vancouver to Montreal to Halifax, expects more than the status quo. They expect more and deservebetter.  The Government of Canada has a lot of work to do, but we're ready. We're ready to work with our opposition colleagues, community leaders and Canadians to make our country a more just and fair place.Racism never has a place in this country, and we will do everything we can to eradicate it from coast to coast to coast. Thank you, Mr.Chair.The Acting Chair (Mr. Bruce Stanton): The honourable Leader of theOpposition.Hon. Andrew Scheer (Leader of the Opposition): Thank you very much, Mr. Chair. Over the past week, we have all been affected by the heartbreaking killing of George Floyd in the United States. The video ispainful to watch. No one should ever have to plead for help while a crime is being committed, ignored by other members of law enforcement. The tragedy triggered marches, occupations, protests and, unfortunately,riots. However, I hope it has mostly sparked conversations. Racism is real, painful and unacceptable.  No one should ever feel unsafe because of the colour of their skin, especially around police officers who have a dutyand a responsibility to uphold the law for all. Here in Canada, we are fortunate to live in a country that is welcoming, tolerant and inclusive. Canada was a beacon of freedom to so many escaping slavery during the U.S.Civil War. Our nation has benefited immensely from great Canadians who overcame prejudices and discrimination to serve their communities and make Canada a better country: Lincoln Alexander, elected as aConservative in 1968, was the first black member of Parliament and went on to become the first black cabinet minister; John Ware was born into slavery in South Carolina but, following the American Civil War, was aleading figure in bringing the first cattle to Alberta and spearheading the ranching industry that would become the backbone of the province; Josiah Henson escaped slavery to become a thriving businessman in Ontario;and of course, Viola Desmond challenged segregation in Nova Scotia. Black Canadians throughout history have not just built this nation with their contributions; they have also represented Canada with excellence andpride on the world stage, like Harry Jerome, who represented Canada in three Olympic Games and won a bronze medal in 1964. He would go on to become a teacher in British Columbia, once again serving withexcellence to try to make a better world for the next generation. Throughout our history, black Canadians have put their lives on the line for their fellow Canadians, bravely serving around the world in our armed forces.While there are many things we can point to in our history with pride, that is not to say that we have a perfect record, nor that we are immune to the threat of racism or that anti-black racism is just an Americanproblem. Canada has had its own dark episodes of racism that cannot be ignoredsadly, not just in our past. Every day, there are people who experience discrimination or racism in some form. Throughout this pandemic,we have seen a troubling spike in anti-Asian racism. No one should be attacked in their community or targeted on the bus because of the colour of their skin. Nor should places of worship be broken into and desecrated,like the synagogue in Montreal. The Conservatives condemn all acts of anti-semitism, racism and discrimination. In a peaceful and free country like Canada, there is absolutely no room for intolerance, racism orextremism of any kind.  But the violence and destruction we have seen in response are not the answer. Millions of people are protesting peacefully across the United States and in Canada, and we must always protectthe rights of people who are protesting peacefully and within the law for a just cause and separate them from those who exploit tragedies to commit acts of violence. Mr. Floyd's brother, Terrence, said that violence willnot bring his brother back. Instead, he has called for peace and justice and urged the crowds to educate themselves and to vote. Out of such tragedy, Mr. Chair, that is a powerful message about how each one of us canuse our democratic rights to effect change. In a peaceful and free country like Canada, there is absolutely no room for intolerance, racism and extremism of any kind. We are not born believing we are better than oneanother. We are all created in the image and likeness of God, and because of that, we are all equal. An infinite value exists in each one of us.  Canada is an incredibly diverse country. Canada is a nation of immigrantsthat stands on the traditional territories of first nations, Inuit and Mtis people. Waves of newcomers have come to Canada for a better life because our country is built on a rock-solid foundation of enduring values,democratic institutions, the rule of law and fundamental and universal human rights. Everyone comes here because Canada is built on solid values, democratic institutions, and respect for the rule of law, as well as forfundamental, universal human rights. We must absolutely protect these values, because they are what sets us apart. They allow Canada to offer what so many other countries simply cannot. There are those who saythat diversity is our strength, and that is true, but it doesn't quite capture the full picture. Diversity is the result of our strength, and our strength is and always has been our freedom. It is the freedom for people topreserve and pass on their cultural traditions and the opportunity to live in peace with those around them; the freedom to live your life with equality under the law, regardless of your race or ethnic background; and theeconomic freedom that so many governments around the world deny their people. It is that economic freedom that ensures that hard work pays off. It gives people the ability to work towards their dreams and choosetheir own path in life. Together, generations of Canadians who trace their roots back to countries around the world have built Canada to truly the greatest country on earth, the true north strong and free. To ensure thatour people remain free, we must continue to fight attacks on our freedoms, including racism and all forms of brutality and injustice in Canada and around the world. Minority rights must be protected. Freedom of religionmust be protected. Freedom of expression and the right to peaceful protest must be protected. As John Diefenbaker said, I am a Canadian...free to speak without fear, free to worship...in my own way, free to stand forwhat I think right, free to oppose what I believe wrong, free to choose those who shall govern my country. This heritage of freedom I pledge to uphold for myself and all mankind. Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.TheActing Chair (Mr. Bruce Stanton): The hon. member for BeloeilChambly.Mr. Yves-Franois Blanchet (BeloeilChambly, BQ): Thank you, Mr.Chair. George Floyd is not a victim of racism; he is another victim of racism. At atime of crisis when outrage is overwhelming the caution and fear of disease among thousands of people who, despite everything, take to the streets to express that outrage, we here in politics will have to be careful,once again, about the words we use. Indeed we are particularly inclined to give other people's words a meaning other than the one they would have liked to give them. Today, our dutyand I would say almost our onlydutyis to express our solidarity, our sadness, our indignation and our anger, but above alland in saying this, I'm thinking of all my friends and acquaintances in the wonderful black community in Quebec and theUnitedStatesour friendship. We must try to be heard by all humans. Every time we talk about this, a small part of me surfaces, that of the non-practising but unrepentant anthropologist who wants to remind us thatraces do not exist. It is the frequency of manifestations of certain genetic traits favoured by geography and history, which in turn shape cultures. Racism expresses itself first and foremost through aggression againstwhat is presumed to be the culture of others, difference. Each time difference instills fear, it is, of course, one time too many. We must learn to live equality in diversity, in itself an extraordinary thing. Governments inthe U.S. have all been racist. Their racism has necessarily been expressed, at some point in their history, in their institutions. It has left its mark. It is the only thing that we have the right to call systemic racism orsystemic discrimination. I am concerned when anyone suggests that we are all and collectively inclined to engage in systemic discrimination or when anyone claims to be a bulwark of virtue between us and the victims.I believe that the Canadian government is not racist, that the Quebec government is not racist, and that the governments of our municipalities are not racist either. I believe, however, that there may be traces ofhorrible things left in our institutions that colour our relationships with people of different origins or with people who were here long before us. So systemic racism probably exists. It should not denounce individuals, butit should encourage us to reread our rules to get rid of what might still be discriminatory in them. This day belongs to GeorgeFloyd. This day belongs to the black people of the UnitedStates. This day belongs to the blackpeople of Quebec and Canada. We don't play politics at the funeral doors: we gather our thoughts, and let indignation and sadness be expressed. We leave the streets to those who need to speak with one voice, inpeace. All that is peaceful is legitimate. Nothing that is violent is legitimate. The Prime Minister expressed the desire to implement concrete measures to fight racism. The first must be to show our solidarity andfriendship. I'm proposing a very concrete measure, which is to give priority and expedited processing to the files of refugee claimantsespecially Haitian, especially black, but also of other originswho have expressed theirdesire to be part of the Quebec nation by putting themselves on the front line. He has the power and the duty to do so, and if he needs Parliament, let's do it tomorrow or right now. That way, words will become actions,and the next step will be all the more credible. In the meantime, our duty is to stand up for those who are afraid and against those who frighten them. Thank you, Mr.Chair.The Acting Chair (Mr. Bruce Stanton): Thehonourable member for Burnaby South.Mr. Jagmeet Singh (Burnaby South, NDP): Thank you, Mr.Chair. Many, many Canadians were shocked to see the violence surrounding the murder of GeorgeFloyd. GeorgeFloyd'smurder is a grim reminder that anti-black racism still exists and that it hits hard. Anti-black racism isn't only in the UnitedStates; it's here in Canada, too. Systemic racism against blacks, indigenous people and manyother visible minorities is alive and well: racial profiling, economic inequality, social inequality, discriminatory hiring, trivialization of violence, excess incarceration, and so on. Things aren't moving forward because onegovernment after another prefers pretty words to concrete action. When the time comes to act, they don't have the courage, they don't have the will to act. People are feeling a lot of grief and frustration, but we canturn that into action and justice. We must not just call for peace. I believe that we have to call for justice. Justice is the only way to create a better world.  When people around the world saw the killing of George Floyd,it left all of us shaken to our core. It was chilling, the casual violence of anti-black racism, the callous taking of another human being's life. It hurt to the core. There was pain. There was sadness. There is anger, andrightly so. There is frustration. This isn't just an American problem. This is just as much a Canadian problem as well, and something that continues to exist across our country. Anti-black racism and anti-indigenousracism are real. People have suffered violence. Indigenous people and black people have suffered violence and have been killed at the hands of police here in Canada. I think about Regis Korchinski-Paquet in Torontoand the calls for justice for Regis. A black trans woman was killed in suspicious circumstances in an interaction with the police. I think about Stewart Kevin Andrews, a young indigenous man killed in an interaction withthe police in Winnipeg. The anger and frustration are about this: How many more people need to die before there's action? How many more speeches will be made? How many more protests need to happen beforesomething is done? How many more times will people plead to breathe? How many more times will they plead to live? What we're talking about is basic human dignity. How many more voices have to ask, demand,plead, beg for basic human dignity? People are angry. They're feeling like enough is enough. Why do they need to keep on asking? Why do black people, why do indigenous people need to keep on asking to be treatedlike humans? Why? You know, people are done with pretty speeches, particularly pretty speeches from people in power who could do something about it right now if they wanted to. I'm standing in a hall of power, thechamber of the Commons, with a Prime Minister who has the power not just to say pretty words but to actually do something about this. The Prime Minister of this country has the power to go beyond pretty words andpretty speeches and do something. I don't have all the answers. I don't think any one person does. We're going to have to come up with those solutions together, but there are certainly some things we do know. MartinLuther King said, True peace is not merely the absence of tension; it is the presence of justice. That's what we need. We need justice.  Killer Mike extolled that people should plan, plot, strategize, organize and thenmobilize. Cardi B put it this way: Another way for the people to take powerI don't want to make everything political but it is what it isis by voting. So what do we vote for? We vote for a government to take action. I callon the Prime Minister, in this hall of power: If the Prime Minister believes that black lives matter, will the Prime Minister commit to ending racial profiling in our country? If the Prime Minister believes that black livesmatter, will the Prime Minister commit to ending the over-policing of black bodies? If the Prime Minister believes, truly believes, that black lives matter, will the Prime Minister commit to ending the over-incarceration ofblack people in this country? If the Prime Minister truly believes that black lives matter, will he commit to ensuring that there are race-based data to make better decisions? Will he commit to ensuring that there's accessto education and to health resources? The Prime Minister has the power to do all these things right now. The Prime Minister simply needs to get it done. If the Prime Minister truly believes that indigenous lives matter,then similarly the Prime Minister must commit today to ending the racial profiling of indigenous people, the over-policing of indigenous people and the over-incarceration of indigenous people. If the Prime Minister trulybelieves that indigenous lives matter, the Prime Minister could stop taking indigenous kids to court; the Prime Minister could stop delaying the action on the calls for justice for the murdered and missing indigenouswomen and girls. If the Prime Minister believes that indigenous lives matter, he could ensure that there's clean drinking water and access to justice and to education and housing right now. People are angry becausethey are frustrated and done with pretty words. People are angry because they're done with pretty speeches from people in power who could do something about it right now. People don't want peace. They don't want