Project Manager: Okay uh Agnes , you can help me for the slide when {gap}User Interface: Yep . Sure .Project Manager: okay . Okay , welcome back . I hope uh you have a fresh head and a fresh time . How t now themeeting actually we gathering here to discuss about the functional design meeting . Okay , and uh we'll issue some information from uh all of you . And it's in the , I think uh , in the sharing folder . And uh I will inviteuh the Christine and the Ed and uh Agnes to discuss about on the various subjects . So can you go to the next slide ? Yeah uh the agenda of the meeting is opening . Then uh I'm going to talk about uh the projectmanagement , what I'm going to do , and uh , of course , I'm doing the project management and secretary both , okay , to take the minutes of the meeting . And there are three presentations . One is uh new projectrequirements . And the second one about uh decision on remote control functions . And uh finally we are closing . Uh and the meeting time will be uh forty minutes , so you have to be very quick . And I have come upwith the {disfmarker} management come with the new proposal , okay , and I have to discuss a few points on this . Uh both says new insights in the aim of your project . Uh the one is uh the teletext becomes uhoutmoded , okay because if uh because of the computer systems and the new technology . So we don't need to consider really about the teletext all in our new project design . And the second one is about uh theremote control . Should be used only for the T_V_ . That's what our uh management says . And the third point , it's very very important to establish our uh marketing or uh corporate image , okay , with this new projector new product . Okay . {vocalsound} So I will invite uh {disfmarker} Agnes , can you go to the third slide ?User Interface: No , this is the third slide .Project Manager: Okay , {gap} . So , I'll invite uh Christine todiscuss about uh the functional design .Industrial Designer: 'Kay , do you wanna open the {disfmarker}User Interface: Sure . Um . You're participant sIndustrial Designer: I'm number two .User Interface: Two ?ProjectManager: {vocalsound}Industrial Designer: That's it .User Interface: Do you want the mouse , or do you want me to {disfmarker}Industrial Designer: I'll do the notes . Yeah , thanks .Project Manager:{vocalsound}Industrial Designer: So um well I I figured uh we should um identify some user requirements , and from my experience , I wanna uh , and from {vocalsound} research I did , uh the the device has to turnthe television on and off the first time you press on the big button , you can't uh can't have like uh waffling on this point , you know .Project Manager: {vocalsound}Industrial Designer: Really have {disfmarker} Itneeds to be able y y have to be able to find it . Because one of the biggest problems with remote controls is finding them . So uh , I also , since we have to establish our corporate image on the basis of this new product, thought we better look at things that are popular and um ex go beyond those , and , as I said in the first meeting , um {vocalsound} and then uh we might wanna talk eventually about the materials that areappropriate to use in uh in the construction , especially in the the uh the outside of the productProject Manager: {vocalsound}Industrial Designer: so that it gives the appearance , and it is reliable , and so forth .{vocalsound} I did a little history on uh the the uh remote controls and when they were invented and so forth , so , I guess this guy Zenith uh created the Flashmatic , which I kinda like the idea , 'cause it made methink of um um maybe the remote control made a big flash when uh you turn the T_V_ on and off , that might be interesting . And um {vocalsound} so it was highly directional flash light that uh you could turn thepicture on and off , and the sound on and off , and change channels c so I think um those are still requirements we have today , uh fifty years later .Project Manager: {vocalsound}User Interface: Mm-hmm .IndustrialDesigner: And uh it was really a pioneering innovation , but it was uh sensitive to the sun , so that uh it would get {disfmarker} would start off by the {disfmarker} you'd get {disfmarker} it would easily cause umproblems . So , uh I {disfmarker} in addition to uh looking at the um {vocalsound} uh the functional requir so all these devices are examples of where uh mm {disfmarker} they {vocalsound} represent examples thatare available today {vocalsound} {vocalsound} which I think the one in the middle is r um really uh something to keep in mind .Marketing: Fantastic . {vocalsound}User Interface: {vocalsound} {vocalsound}IndustrialDesigner: It'd be easy to find . And um it would uh y you'd {vocalsound} {disfmarker} you could throw it at things if if the T_V_ didn't turn on and off , you could use it for something else . And since I'm not really um{vocalsound} Industrial Designer , I didn't really know what to do with this slide . But um {vocalsound} I just {vocalsound} took some {vocalsound} different uh schematics and I put them into this , and I guess this iswhat a slide might look like if you were drawing a circuit board . {gap} I don't know why um we were asked to do this . So , uh {vocalsound} personal preferences , {vocalsound} umUser Interface:{vocalsound}Industrial Designer: I think we could uh I I'm really thinking outside the box here , and I think that we should consider perhaps having an an an a a size uh {vocalsound} {disfmarker} a remote controlthat changes in size depending on the user preference .User Interface: {vocalsound}Industrial Designer: So something that's very very flexible and inflatable and then you could shrink it . I think um it could either be{disfmarker} you could go either one extreme , be very colourful , or you could make it clear , and um kind of blend in with things , so you didn't have to um {vocalsound} uh have a problem with the th the decorationof the {disfmarker} of the user's home . Um I think uh it needs to be waterproof , because uh sometimes they fall into cupsProject Manager: {vocalsound}Industrial Designer: and , you know , it might be out by theswimming pool or something like that . Um {vocalsound} if you uh mi one of {disfmarker} one of my requirements was about needs t to tell you when it's done its job or not , because half the time , I keep pushing onthe remote control , and I don't know if it's actually understood my message , so I think it should give you some sort of an oral cue . And uh , course I never wanna replace the battery . {vocalsound} So ,Marketing:{vocalsound}Industrial Designer: that's {disfmarker} those are my f preferences , and that's my presentation .Project Manager: Yeah , let me uh interrupt you uh if you can add other facility , other feature , like uhunbreakable .Industrial Designer: Yes .Project Manager: Okay , because uh especially today , you know , you have the family and the kids ,User Interface: {vocalsound}Project Manager: okay , and the kids throw it andthey they play with their remotes and {gap} .Industrial Designer: Run over it with a car .Project Manager: Yes . Okay , so if you can add the feature , okay , for your uh fabric whatever in your outline design okay , withunbreakable , okay , I think that will give a lot of advantage for our product , if I'm not wrong . Maybe you can uh add it in that .Industrial Designer: Good idea . Good idea , I'll I'll uh um {disfmarker} Yes , very good.Project Manager: Okay , uh thank you Christine , and uh uh any questions or uh clarifications , or any discussion on the functional design ?User Interface: Do you have any preconceived ideas in terms of materials ?'Cause , for example , in the unbreakable thing , doing something plastic would be harder ,Industrial Designer: Hmm .User Interface: whereas having something like , I dunno , steel or titanium isn't really economicallyviable . {vocalsound}Industrial Designer: Titanium . Titanium would be {vocalsound} be heavy , too ,Marketing: Titanium . {vocalsound}Industrial Designer: wouldn't it ?User Interface: Yeah .Industrial Designer: No , Ihaven't really um {disfmarker} I wanted feedback , I think we need to rate {disfmarker} rank these , but we'll see what your uh personal preferences are and your thoughts .User Interface: Yeah . Sure , yeah . No , Ijust wondering whether {disfmarker} that you had any sort of {disfmarker}Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} I like titanium . It's light .User Interface: Yeah .Industrial Designer: Uh {vocalsound} yeahMarketing:Expensive .User Interface: {vocalsound} The marketing comes out . {vocalsound}Industrial Designer: but uh who who said {disfmarker} who said we were ,Marketing: {vocalsound}Project Manager: Yes .IndustrialDesigner: you know , nobody told me how mu what our financial objective is , so um {disfmarker}Project Manager: {vocalsound} Yeah so {disfmarker}Industrial Designer: It'd be hard to inflate something ou made outof titanium though {vocalsound} .Project Manager: Yeah the the {disfmarker} I'm sorry because uh the last meeting we supposed to discuss about the financial thing .User Interface: {vocalsound}Marketing:{vocalsound}Project Manager: Uh let me go quickly , maybe if I can go back {vocalsound} . I know the project plan and the budget . So I can close this , {gap} not sure . Was in uh {disfmarker} S This . So let me seewhere is this file .User Interface: That's Christine's .Project Manager: This is Christine . {vocalsound}User Interface: And that's mine , I think .Project Manager: That's yours , okay . Saving .Marketing: {vocalsound}{gap}User Interface: In modified .Marketing: I don't know ,Project Manager: Okay , uhMarketing: I think verbally we can {disfmarker} we can pretty much sell .Project Manager: I will {disfmarker} I will send you amail , okay ? The project may be the the project aim , okay . At the end of the day , the company uh wants to make at least uh the fifty million Euro . Okay , and uh of course the price will be very reasonable on the thesales side . Okay , that maybe Eddie will talk to you about uh how much uh the price and uh what's uh {disfmarker} how much its cost for the manufacturing and how much it's going to be {disfmarker} we sell in themarket . Okay . Then uh you can come back with your feedback . And I I have one {disfmarker} maybe the suggestion or opinion . This remote control , okay , it can be for like universal , to use for any T_V_ . Okay ,and it will be slim , okay , and uh {disfmarker}Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Not fat ?Project Manager: Not fat .Industrial Designer: Not fat , huh .Project Manager: Okay .Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Might behard to find , though .Project Manager: Yep . But let's try it , okay , with the different uh {disfmarker} the designs , okay , the functional designs .Marketing: Hmm .Industrial Designer: Oh , okay .Project Manager:Okay ? So any other questions ?Marketing: Uh from her side , I don't think uh there's too many more questions .Project Manager: Okay . Thank you Christine for uh time being ,Marketing: If you can come to the{disfmarker}Project Manager: so then uh Ed , so can you tell about {disfmarker}Marketing: Okay , from the marketing {disfmarker} yeah , from the marketing side , just to to give an idea what the management islooking for , I was looking for a a remote control to have a sUser Interface: S 'scuse me for one sec .Marketing: I have a sales price of twenty-five Euro , with a production price of uh twelve and a half Euro . For what uhI think from what we're trying to find , we're tr we're looking for , I don't think that price is exactly in the market . Okay ?Project Manager: Mm-hmm .Marketing: I'll explain myself here now in the sense that uh in a{disfmarker} in the recent surveys , uh from the ages {disfmarker} fr from fifteen to thirty-five , eighty percent are willing to spend more money for something as fancy as trendy .Project Manager:{vocalsound}Marketing: Twenty-five Euros , uh that's that's a preson reasonable price . That's a market price right now . Now if we're gonna take a risk , and push this up a bit , make it more expensive ,ProjectManager: Yep .Marketing: but give them added things that they don't have now ,Project Manager: Yep .Marketing: then it w it could possibly sell . Obviously the risk is there . Too expensive , they're not gonna buy . But, I think uh there's one other thing interesting {disfmarker} two things that are interesting {gap} is that uh from the fifteen to thirty-five year-old group , which always spends more money on trendy new things ,speech recognition is requested .Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Speech recognition? .Marketing: And we're talking between seventy-five to ninety percent of this group is willing to pay for speech recognition on aremote .Project Manager: Mm-hmm .Marketing: Obviously , we can't make a remote into a computer , but maybe simple commands . I dunno , louder , softer , on , off . That might be a possibility , even though it costsmore , to be the first on the market to produce this .Project Manager: {vocalsound}Marketing: Thirty-five percent say they're too difficult to use . So we have to figure out a way of making it um more user friendly .{vocalsound} Uh fifty percent say they can't find the remote half the time . {vocalsound}Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}Marketing: So maybe one word speech recognition commands , say remote , and there's abeep beep beep , and they can find it through , you know , ten tons of newspapers , magazines , whatever you have at home .Project Manager: {vocalsound}Marketing: But , in the cost that uh the management islooking for , that's not gonna be possible . But if it's trendy , if it's fancy , it's got some colour to it , if it's very easy {disfmarker} easy to use , if it's got simple remote {disfmarker} speech remote uh control , like I said, louder , softer , change channel , on , off , remote , it goes beep beep , I can find my my remote without spending half a day looking for it and getting all upset 'cause I can't turn the T_V_ on . So we're gonna have tolook at it in a {vocalsound} in this global idea , with the ideas of the industrial uh design .Project Manager: {vocalsound}Marketing: But , price obviously we have to talk about .Project Manager: Yep . So what do youthink about uh the design {gap} ? Do you think you can make it or uh {disfmarker}Industrial Designer: D uh I'm sorry ? {vocalsound}Project Manager: What do you think about uh the design , uh what he was talkingabout {disfmarker} of the speech recognition ?Marketing: Speech recognition .Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Well , uh training is always an issue with uh commands .Project Manager: Mm-hmm .IndustrialDesigner: So um {disfmarker} might uh {disfmarker} we can perhaps um {vocalsound} do it if the user is willing to spend some time in the training process , uh it could reduce th th uh the overall um cost . Not surehow . {vocalsound} But um anyway , um {vocalsound} I I think also that uh this might impact the battery life . And um so , maybe what we'll have to do is um add something where you can um recharge it wirelessly sothat uh {vocalsound} y you know sen send power to it . So uh or maybe uh set it out in the sun and it uh , you know , gets uh , from the light , um a a solar cell inside thereUser Interface: Hmm .Industrial Designer: sothat uh you have enough uh juice to do all these fancy things .User Interface: It seems also like with the speech recognition , yeah , it's a great feature , but if you're watching T_V_ , there's a lot of ambient sound , andit's words . It's not just , you know , noises like something hitting . It's actual speech , so then you have to make sure that the speech recognizer is good enough to filter out the T_V_ speech , and the the user's speech. Otherwise , you can say remote .Industrial Designer: Off . {vocalsound}User Interface: But if someone on the screen is saying the same thing , all of a sudden , you have someone in a movie saying off and yourscreen dies , because they've triggered the remote control and it's turned off your T_V_ . {vocalsound} So , I think if we can find a speech recognizer that can handle those types of problems , then yeah , it'd be a reallygood marketing gimmick .Marketing: Mm .User Interface: But , I think we seriously need to consider how that would impact the situation .Industrial Designer: Very good point .Marketing: Because tha w {vocalsound}with speech recognition uh th I'm not that good at that ideaUser Interface: Mm-hmm .Marketing: but th {vocalsound} if it's a one-word recognition , 'cause I know with telephones and cars and things I've seen in theStates ,User Interface: Yeah .Marketing: {gap} a friend of mine says call Mom , and it calls up Mom .User Interface: Yeah .Marketing: 'Kay the radio can be on and everything .Project Manager: Yep .Marketing: BecauseI think s with speech recognition , if uh the the remote or like the telephone {vocalsound} {disfmarker} it has a exact word that it has to hear .User Interface: Mm-hmm .Marketing: I don't think it would come through asentence in a television . If somebody's speaking on the se the television , they're not gonna stop and say remote ,User Interface: Mm-hmm .Marketing: okay . So I think that uh something could be designed torecognise single word {disfmarker}User Interface: Oh yeah . Yeah . No , I think it's a great idea if we can design it to to suit those requirements .Marketing: Like the t like the telephone . No because I {gap} this is thisis years ago in the United States where we're driving down and he said call home , and the telephone called immediately {vocalsound}User Interface: Yeah . {vocalsound}Marketing: so well , that's kinda cute .{vocalsound}Project Manager: Well , what I can uh suggest to you , Christine , okay , uh if you need some uh {disfmarker} the technical feedback , or some training , okay , about uh this facility , especially for thespeech recognition , I can recommend you some companies like uh Intel or I_B_M_ , okay , because they're already in this uh speech recognition part , okay . And uh you can maybe have some uh technical backupfrom them , some kind of a technical tie-up . Okay , and uh if you want , I can coordinate , okay , to get some information , okay , and uh you can uh let me know , okay , so what kind of uh the details you require okay, to add this feature in this project . I don't think it's uh the difficult . And uh we need to know how much is the timeframe you need to develop , apart from uh what {gap} today .Industrial Designer: Okay , we'll findthat out .Project Manager: Yep .Marketing: From from your side uh , you're gonna have to go back the management and s be more s precise .Project Manager: Yes .Marketing: What do they want ?Project Manager: Yes.Marketing: Uh {vocalsound} , a risk , take a risk on the market ? Something that's gonna cost more , but could very easily s make a boom in the market ?Project Manager: Yes . Yep .Marketing: Because it has to besomething totally different , has to be total totally new . Something that nobody has right now .Project Manager: Yeah butMarketing: And it's gonna cost .Project Manager: but end of the day , you're the sales guy , so Iwill come back and sit on your head because uh you are going to give your sales projection ,Marketing: {vocalsound}User Interface: {vocalsound}Project Manager: okay . It's uh of course it's uh good to uh tell themanagement how much it's cost usMarketing: Mm-hmm .Project Manager: and how much you are going to benefit ,Marketing: Sure . Sure .Project Manager: okay . And uh , so I don't mind to convince , okay , themanagement to spend some more money on the project , okay , if you can make out ofMarketing: Obviously .Project Manager: the money from this project .Marketing: If the bottom line is positive .{vocalsound}Project Manager: Yes , okay I don't mind to convince the the management ,User Interface: {vocalsound}Project Manager: okay .Marketing: Mm .Project Manager: The management says , okay , so theythey don't want certain facilities , which it's already worked , okay , they want something uh new , okay . I think uh like uh speech recognit definitely they will agree , I don't think they'll say no for that , okay . And uh Ihope I can convince the management on that , okay . So if you have any uh new ideas , okay , for uh your {disfmarker} you can always come up and uh you can tell me if you need any uh s special , okay , coordination, okay , between any uh technical companies , which you can uh hide their technology backup , okay , for your uh functional design or technical design , okay , then I am ready to do that . And uh what's your commentsabout uh {disfmarker}User Interface: Um well , I mean , maybe if I go through my presentation , you can sort of see what the user perspective is , and how it ties into the other two comments .Marketing: Mm .ProjectManager: Yeah , so you are finish , Ed , uh so I can uh {disfmarker}Marketing: Yes . Mm .Project Manager: Okay , I'll uh hand over to Agnes . Just gonna close this . T Uh where are you , here ?User Interface: Mm


Lynne Neagle AM: Okay. Good morning, everyone. Welcome to the Children, Young People and Education Committee. We've received apologies for absence from Suzy Davies and Jack Sargeant and I'm very pleased towelcome Jayne Bryant back, who is substituting for Jack today. Are there any declarations of interest from Members, please? No. Okay, thank you. Item 2, then, this morning, is our sixth scrutiny session on the Children(Abolition of Defence of Reasonable Punishment) (Wales) Bill. I'm very pleased to welcome our witnesses this morning: Sally Jenkins, who is chair of All Wales Heads of Children’s Services and is here representing theAssociation of Directors of Social Services; Alastair Birch, who is senior system leader for equalities and safeguarding at Pembrokeshire County Council, who is here representing the Association of Directors of EducationWales; and Councillor Huw David, who is the Welsh Local Government Association spokesperson for health and social care and leader of Bridgend County Borough Council. So, thank you all for attending this morning.We're very pleased to have you here. We've got a lot of ground to cover, so, if you're happy, we'll go straight into questions and I'll start just by asking about your general support for the Bill, which is outlined in theevidence. Can you just explain why you think the current law is ineffective or unclear?Alastair Birch: Bore da—bore da, bawb. So, I'm Alastair Birch. The statement, really, from ADEW is that the rights of the child shouldbe educated and achieved, really, under the United Nations Convention on the Rights of the Child. The current legislation has been criticised, obviously, by the UN concerning the defence of reasonable punishment stillbeing within our current legislation. So, we will always—ADEW will always—advocate that the rights of the child be upheld, so that is really the fundamental aspect in terms of the statement from ADEW, and the positionof ADEW is that the rights of the child are fundamental in this process. And there are certain articles—. I know that the Rights of Children and Young Persons (Wales) Measure 2011 made sure that article 3 and article 4,article 12 and article 37 were a focus in terms of making sure that the best interests of the child were put first, that children expressing their views and opinions was a priority. And we know, for safeguarding purposes,that the express opinions of the child and the voice of the child are a fundamental aspect of any safe environment, whether it be a school or college. So, that is—the position is really following that legal position underthe Rights of Children and Young Persons (Wales) Measure.Lynne Neagle AM: Okay, thank you. Nothing to add at this stage, no?Sally Jenkins: I'll just add, on behalf of ADSS and on behalf of children's services andsocial services more widely, for us, this is not a change in our position, this is not new; this is a position that we, on behalf of the leaders of social services across Wales, have taken over many years, going back 20, 25years. I think what we would say is that we really welcome this Bill and we welcome the proposed change for the clarity it would bring—the clarity that it would bring for children, for parents and for professionals. I thinkwhat we would recognise is that this is a very little-used piece of legislation, so it's rare, it's not as if this is something that is going to cast great change across the scene for children and families in Wales, but what itwill do is represent a change in the reality of how we care and nurture our children. I would echo absolutely what Alastair has said in terms of the rights of the child, but equally, in terms of all of our policies in Wales interms of promoting well-being for children, this has to be key. So, for us, this is about a natural progression of change in how we care for our children in Wales. For children's services at the very sharp end of this world,for us, it brings a true clarity. This continues with an ambiguity in how we treat our children and how we care for our children, and the shift for us brings that very much needed clarity.Lynne Neagle AM: Okay, thankyou. The committee has already heard different views about whether there's clear evidence that physical punishment is harmful to children. What evidence does the work of social services provide about whetherphysical punishment is actually harmful?Sally Jenkins: Obviously, what you'll all be aware of is that, as part of the consultation for this Bill, the Public Policy Institute did a further piece of research to look at the impactof physical punishment on children. A number of things that we know—we know from across the world that the evidence is that introducing legislation or changing legislation in this way improves children's positionswithin their families. What we know is that children themselves, as Alastair has already referred to, really find physical punishment demeaning and harmful, and for children it is an emotionally damaging experience.Now, there may be disagreement about that, there will be different views on that, but that's the voice of the child in this debate. The voice of the child is very clear that physical punishment is for them harmful. I thinkwhat we would also say is that, in the world that we work in, it's part of a continuum, and, whilst this is an element of how children are cared for, what we see is a continuum where an acceptance of how we treatchildren in a particular way perpetuates throughout our work. By changing this, it helps that shift to that absolute recognition that our children must be cared for in a way that is physically safe in all dimensions forthem.Lynne Neagle AM: Okay, thank you. We've had evidence from the equal protection network that the reasonable punishment defence undermines child protection and fails to protect children because it permits anarbitrary level of violence, which invades children's physical integrity, making it a potential pathway to more serious physical or sexual abuse, and you did refer to that just now. Is there anything you want to add onthat?Sally Jenkins: I would echo that. I think there is something in this that is about our culture, about how we see our children. It is about how we see our smallest and most vulnerable people, and if it is acceptable itopens the door to those other, more extreme versions of violence, which then complicates the issue for us. This is about clarity, and, whilst there is an argument that this is a small episode for a child, it's not a smallepisode for a child, it is a major episode for a child, and I think absolutely, as you said, the potential for it then to lead on, and over gradation and time to increase the risk for children, is clearly there.Lynne Neagle AM:Okay, thank you. The final question from me: your written evidence emphasises the need for greater clarity around the definition of what constitutes corporal punishment, but that contrasts with what we've been toldby the children's commissioner and the equal protection network, who've emphasised the importance of simplicity in the Bill. How do you respond to that view, and is what you're calling for essential to be on the face ofthe Bill?Sally Jenkins: It's not essential for it to be on the face of the Bill. What we would like to see is discussion within the implementation phase for that nuancing. Absolutely agree in terms of simplicity—I think that isreally important—and I've already mentioned clarity. What we don't want to do is further confuse the position. We know that the legislation in different countries has done that, and there are ways that you can do it, butwhat we would welcome is an opportunity during the implementation phase for discussion.Lynne Neagle AM: Okay. Thank you.Huw David: And, as a principle, obviously we would welcome full involvement, and we knowthere's the commitment from Welsh Government to full involvement in the implementation, because, as with every piece of legislation, implementation is the most important part, and we would want to ensure there isthat commitment to a major awareness-raising campaign, and there is that from Welsh Government, because we need to take families, carers and parents with us on this. Also we need to ensure that there is thatsupport available to parents and carers that do sometimes struggle with parenting, and that needs to be a universal offer across Wales. If we're to progress with this, that has to be an option that is offered to everyparent in Wales.Lynne Neagle AM: Okay. Thank you.Sally Jenkins: Local authorities have already been very heavily involved in terms of looking at this Bill and exploring what the issues are and the discussions andlooking at what the implications from a local authority perspective will be, as Huw describes, both in terms of the awareness raising, early support and intervention and prevention services for families against thebackdrop of the current issues that we have in local government, but also awareness raising—because absolutely it is key that families come with us on this journey. This is not an imposition. This is embracing a cultureand a value system for our children.Lynne Neagle AM: Okay, thank you. I've got some questions now from Dawn Bowden on the implementation of the Bill.Dawn Bowden AM: Thank you, Chair. So, you've pre-emptedme, Huw.Huw David: Right. Sorry. I've got good eyesight; I can't see—. [Laughter.]Dawn Bowden AM: You've already said, obviously, that you're looking towards working with Welsh Government in terms of itsimplementation. What's been your role so far in terms of the implementation of the Bill—local authorities generally, now? Have you had a role? Has Welsh Government been involving you in discussions around theintroduction of the Bill so far?Huw David: Yes. So, obviously we were consulted—a key consultee—but also our officials have worked very closely with Welsh Government officials to make sure this is implementedsuccessfully, if it is progressed.Sally Jenkins: Our involvement with this, from a social services perspective, goes back over two years, directly in working towards this point, never mind the history in terms of worktowards this area. But, very directly in relation to this Bill, we were first involved at least two years ago, to recollect, and that was in a series of workshops with other agencies, for example Children and Family CourtAdvisory and Support Service Cymru and the police, and looking in real depth at what the implications would be for us as agencies to look at what the likely trajectory would be in terms of our pathways for referral intoour services and what that might mean for us. And then particularly, for example, with CAFCASS Cymru in relation to private law, what the fallout might be, and then what, if anything—and that's the discussion that weneed to have—that could mean for children's services in particular, given the pressures that we're already under. So, we've been in constant, I suppose, involvement in terms of the Bill already, as part of theconsultation, in terms of the focus groups and in terms of direct work with Welsh Government officials to take this forward. And we are absolutely committed to continuing with that work.Dawn Bowden AM: Okay. Youtouched there on the pressures that you're already under, which we fully appreciate, but you also mentioned in answers to Lynne Neagle earlier on that you welcomed the Bill in terms of its clarity. So, are you confidentthat the Bill can be implemented without any major impact on your capacity to deal with it?Sally Jenkins: We've done—. A number of local authorities—my own included, Newport City Council, has done some work tolook at what the likely impact would be and then actually to look at what some of that costing would need to be. Further work is needed on that area, and that needs to be carried out during the implementation phase. Ithink what we've done is we've looked internationally at what the impact has been elsewhere when similar legislation has been introduced to try and gauge, but that's difficult to do in terms of comparable nations andsize and also different systems. And obviously our approach in terms of children and pedagogy is very different from some of the nations that have already done this. I wouldn't like to say one way or the other, becauseI think, in terms of that culture shift, it could be a double impact on us in terms of increased referrals because of increased awareness, but it could also be, I suppose, as Huw alludes to, that, if we're looking at ensuringgreater awareness of preventative services and support services for parents, actually people coming to the fore and asking us for those services as well. So, at this stage, I think what we would want to say is that wecontinue to be fully involved in the implementation phase, to look at what the cost implications for that could be, and not just for the local authorities but also the police, CAFCASS Cymru, for third sector organisationsinvolved in preventative services. I don't think any of that should undermine the position in terms of children and their rights within our society. So, a difficult answer, in the sense that—Dawn Bowden AM: No, Iunderstand. What you're saying is that this is a piece of legislation that, in your view, is a good piece of legislation. It's setting out to, hopefully, achieve what the purpose of it is and you will deliver what you need to.Can I ask you whether, then, you've also given thought to the impact on—we've talked about social services, but the impact on other services, like housing, education and so on? You're obviously coming at it fromslightly different angles in other sections.Alastair Birch: We are part of the universal service for children, and we very much work in co-operation with the WLGA and our social care colleagues, and we've been part ofthat consultation. In terms of education, the main changes, or adaptations, would be around training and awareness. And, in terms of the Bill, there needs to be the clarity—ambiguity would be bad—in terms of makingsure that safeguarding leads within all schools have the right training and support. So, really, that's the key element there, and then obviously the preventative services for the parents that schools can signpost, andsometimes possibly even host, in terms of being community schools. These positive parenting approaches that—. I have colleagues who have worked in that area for many years and see the benefits in how thosepositive parenting approaches make a difference to families.Dawn Bowden AM: So, from your point of view, it's awareness raising, is it?Alastair Birch: It's awareness raising; it's making sure that professionals are fullybriefed on necessary changes, that there's very little ambiguity, that we are aware that—. We still have that duty to report whenever there is any safeguarding concern. That'll still be part of the all-Wales childprotection procedures. That won't change, and that duty is always going to be there for all our professionals. But that awareness raising and training will be the key, and then, obviously, working in co-operation with ourcolleagues.Dawn Bowden AM: Okay, I understand that. Have you been given an indication of how long you've got between Royal Assent and implementation, and whether you've thought through any of the keymilestones that need to be implemented?Sally Jenkins: There's a group proposed that would be a strategic leadership group in the steering group that we're part of, which is now laying out what would happen afterRoyal Assent if that is given. So, we will work towards that.Dawn Bowden AM: Okay. My final question, Chair, is about some of the responses we've had to this committee that say that the state should not get involvedin family life—I'm sure you've heard those views—unless it's in the most serious circumstances. To what extent do you think that this Bill undermines the existing local authority responsibilities, or don't you?Huw David:The state's paramount role is to protect children from harm. That is our legal responsibility, it's our moral responsibility, and we will discharge that. And there is obviously a view—it's a view that is enshrined in the UNConvention on the Rights of the Child—that physical punishment, physical harm to a child is harm to a child, and we should be preventing that and act to prevent that. That would be the position of the Welsh LocalGovernment Association, and we also respect the mandate that Members of the National Assembly for Wales have too. And we believe that children can be raised by parents without recourse to physical punishment,effectively, and we'd support parents in that. We do not believe that in the 50 nations across the world where such legislation exists that the state is interfering in family life unnecessarily. We believe this action reflectsa cultural change, a sea change that's taken place in Wales over the last 30 to 40 years, where the vast majority of parents now say that they do not use it themselves, they do not support it, and we believe this isactually a reflection of what has happened in Welsh society. We support Assembly Members in the view that the natural progression of that is that children's rights are protected across Wales.Dawn Bowden AM: So, I'vegot largely positive feedback from you in terms of the Bill and its intentions, and so on. Do you foresee any unintended consequences for this Bill?Huw David: If we implement it carefully, if we implement it with theright resources, then I hope not. I think not. But as with every piece of legislation, it is about the implementation, it is about the cultural change as well, and that's why I cannot overstress the importance of making surethat resources are made available, because our social services departments—children's social services in particular—are overstretched. They are at breaking point—make no bones about it—and they are dealing withchildren who are facing serious harm and neglect. We are having record numbers of contacts from police, from teachers, from doctors and, of course, from children themselves who are experiencing that harm andneglect. And obviously, we want to focus our energy and our attention on those children. Equally, though, we don't want to lose sight of those families and children that are experiencing significant problems, but who wewant to support through our early intervention and prevention programmes, and that is why it is important that there is investment in those programmes, so that children do not end up in that terrible position where wehave to, for their safety, take them from their birth families to protect them. And the reality is, in Wales, that we are doing that to more children than we've done for a long time, and the numbers are growing acrossWales. And that is only because of the most appalling neglect and abuse, because there is no way that any judge would permit us to act to make a child safe if it was not for that fact, and the facts are there. So, I don'twant that focus to be lost, but, of course, we welcome and understand the need to progress this piece of legislation.Dawn Bowden AM: That rise that you talk about here, is that due to more interventions, greaterawareness, more incidents? I'm trying to link this to the Bill in terms of whether the Bill is actually going to give you more work to do in those areas.Sally Jenkins: On the reasons for the rise in the numbers oflooked-after children in Wales, which are higher than those in England, and also the numbers of contacts that we have across the local authorities, the work of the care crisis review, which was completed last year; thework of Isabelle Trowler, who's the chief social worker in England; countless research and reports that have taken place in the last 18 months; and currently the public law working group, under the auspices of thepresident of the family court, would all indicate that it's multifactorial. So, what you have is a range of reasons that have led to the increasing numbers of children becoming looked after across England and Wales. Whatyou can't do is identify a single reason. There have been headlines that have said, 'Is it increased austerity?' That is clearly a part of this. Is it in Wales an increased awareness of adverse childhood experiences and theemphasis of the impact on children of, for example, domestic abuse? Is it because of our understanding of what happens to children in those households? All of that research would say it's all of those things. And then,when you also add in changes in our practice with our colleagues in the judiciary, changes in our police service, but also changes in our preventative services, you've got that whole range of elements. And there is goingon across the local authorities and Welsh Government a huge amount of work to try to address and understand that, and then to ameliorate that. Children who need to be in care for safety need to be in care, but whatwe have to do is get to a point where fewer children come into care and we're able to protect them, firstly, and secondly where those children who are in care are cared for in a way that delivers the best possibleoutcomes for them. So, there is no simple answer unfortunately. I think, in terms of this Bill and unintended consequences, I agree absolutely with everything that Huw has said. My job is around children at that far


PhD B: OK . We 're on .Grad E: Hello ?Professor A: OK , so uh {vocalsound} had some interesting mail from uh Dan Ellis . Actually , I think he {disfmarker} he {vocalsound} redirected it to everybody also so uh{vocalsound} the PDA mikes uh have a big bunch of energy at {disfmarker} at uh five hertz uh where this came up was that uh I was showing off these wave forms that we have on the web and {disfmarker} and uh{vocalsound} I just sort of hadn't noticed this , but that {disfmarker} the major , major component in the wave {disfmarker} in the second wave form in that pair of wave forms is actually the air conditioner .Grad C:Huh .Professor A: So . So . I {vocalsound} {vocalsound} I have to be more careful about using that as a {disfmarker} as a {disfmarker} {vocalsound} as a good illustration , uh , in fact it 's not , of uh {disfmarker}{vocalsound} of the effects of room reverberation . It is isn't a bad illustration of the effects of uh room noise . {vocalsound} on {disfmarker} on uh some mikes uh but So . And then we had this other discussion aboutum {vocalsound} whether this affects the dynamic range , cuz I know , although we start off with thirty two bits , you end up with uh sixteen bits and {vocalsound} you know , are we getting hurt there ? But uh Dan ispretty confident that we 're not , that {disfmarker} that quantization error is not {disfmarker} is still not a significant {vocalsound} factor there . So . So there was a question of whether we should change things here ,whether we should {vocalsound} change a capacitor on the input box for that or whether we shouldPhD B: Yeah , he suggested a smaller capacitor , right ?Professor A: Right . But then I had some other uh thingdiscussions with himPhD B: For the P DProfessor A: and the feeling was {vocalsound} once we start monk monkeying with that , uh , many other problems could ha happen . And additionally we {disfmarker} wealready have a lot of data that 's been collected with that , so .PhD B: Yeah .Professor A: A simple thing to do is he {disfmarker} he {disfmarker} he has a {disfmarker} I forget if it {disfmarker} this was in that mail orin the following mail , but he has a {disfmarker} a simple filter , a digital filter that he suggested . We just run over the data before we deal with it .PhD B: Mm - hmm .Professor A: um The other thing that I don't knowthe answer to , but when people are using Feacalc here , uh whether they 're using it with the high - pass filter option or not . And I don't know if anybody knows .Grad E: Um . {vocalsound} I could go check .ProfessorA: But . Yeah . So when we 're doing all these things using our software there is {disfmarker} um if it 's {disfmarker} if it 's based on the RASTA - PLP program , {vocalsound} which does both PLP and RASTA - PLP{vocalsound} um then {vocalsound} uh there is an option there which then comes up through to Feacalc which {vocalsound} um allows you to do high - pass filtering and in general we like to do that , because ofthings like this and {vocalsound} it 's {disfmarker} it 's pretty {disfmarker} it 's not a very severe filter . Doesn't affect speech frequencies , even pretty low speech frequencies , at all , but it 'sPhD B: What 's the{pause} cut - off frequency it used ?Professor A: Oh . I don't know I wrote this a while agoPhD B: Is it like twenty ?Professor A: Something like that .PhD B: Yeah .Professor A: Yeah . I mean I think there 's some effectabove twenty but it 's {disfmarker} it 's {disfmarker} it 's {disfmarker} it 's mild . So , I mean it probably {disfmarker} there 's probably some effect up to a hundred hertz or something but it 's {disfmarker} it 's prettymild . I don't know in the {disfmarker} in the STRUT implementation of the stuff is there a high - pass filter or a pre pre - emphasis or something in the {disfmarker}PhD F: Uh . I think we use a pre - emphasis . Yeah .Yeah .Professor A: So . We {disfmarker} we {disfmarker} we want to go and check that in i for anything that we 're going to use the P D A mike for . {vocalsound} uh He says that there 's a pretty good roll off in thePZM mikes so {vocalsound} we don't need {disfmarker} need to worry about them one way or the other but if we do make use of the cheap mikes , {vocalsound} uh we want to be sure to do that {disfmarker} thatfiltering before we {vocalsound} process it . And then again if it 's uh depending on the option that the {disfmarker} our {disfmarker} our software is being run with , it 's {disfmarker} it 's quite possible that 's alreadybeing taken care of . uh But I also have to pick a different picture to show the effects of reverberation . uhPhD B: Did somebody notice it during your talk ?Professor A: uh No .PhD B: Huh .Professor A: Well . uh Well . Ifthey made output they were {disfmarker} they were , you know {disfmarker} they were nice .PhD B: Didn't say anything ?Professor A: But . {vocalsound} I mean the thing is it was since I was talking aboutreverberation and showing this thing that was noise , it wasn't a good match , but it certainly was still uh an indication of the fact that you get noise with distant mikes . uh It 's just not a great example because not onlyisn't it reverberation but it 's a noise that we definitely know what to do .PhD B: Mm - hmm .Professor A: So , I mean , it doesn't take deep {disfmarker} {vocalsound} a new {disfmarker} bold new methods to get ridof uh five hertz noise , so .PhD B: Yeah .Professor A: um {vocalsound} uh But . So it was {disfmarker} it was a bad example in that way , but it 's {disfmarker} it still is {disfmarker} it 's the real thing that we did getout of the microphone at distance , so it wasn't {vocalsound} it w it w wasn't wrong it was inappropriate . So . {vocalsound} So uh , but uh , Yeah , someone noticed it later pointed it out to me , and I went " oh , man .Why didn't I notice that ? "PhD B: Hmm .Professor A: um . So . {vocalsound} um So I think we 'll change our {disfmarker} our picture on the web , when we 're @ @ . One of the things I was {disfmarker} I mean , Iwas trying to think about what {disfmarker} what 's the best {vocalsound} way to show the difference an and I had a couple of thoughts one was , {vocalsound} that spectrogram that we show {vocalsound} is O K ,but the thing is {vocalsound} the eyes uh and the {vocalsound} the brain behind them are so good at picking out patterns {vocalsound} from {disfmarker} from noise {vocalsound} that in first glance you look at themit doesn't seem like it 's that bad uh because there 's many features that are still preserved . So one thing to do might be to just take a piece of the spec uh of the spectrogram where you can see {vocalsound} thatsomething looks different , an and blow it up , and have that be the part that 's {disfmarker} just to show as well . You know .PhD B: Mm - hmm . Mm - hmm .Professor A: i i Some things are going to be hurt . um{vocalsound} Another , I was thinking of was um {vocalsound} taking some spectral slices , like uh {disfmarker} like we look at with the recognizer , and look at the spectrum or cepstrum that you get out of there ,and the {disfmarker} the uh , um , {vocalsound} the reverberation uh does make it {disfmarker} does change that . And so maybe {disfmarker} maybe that would be more obvious .PhD B: Hmm .Grad C: Spectralslices ?Professor A: Yeah .Grad C: W w what d what do you mean ?Professor A: Well , I mean um all the recognizers look at frames . So they {disfmarker} they look at {disfmarker}PhD B: So like one instant in time.Professor A: Yeah , look at a {disfmarker}Grad C: OK .Professor A: So it 's , yeah , at one point in time or uh twenty {disfmarker} over twenty milliseconds or something , {vocalsound} you have a spectrum or acepstrum .Grad C: OK .Professor A: That 's what I meant by a slice .Grad C: I see .Professor A: Yeah . And {vocalsound} if you look at {disfmarker}PhD B: You could just {disfmarker} you could just throw up , youknow , uh {vocalsound} the uh {disfmarker} some MFCC feature vectors . You know , one from one , one from the other , and then , you know , you can look and see how different the numbers are .Professor A: Right .Well , that 's why I saying either {vocalsound} {vocalsound} Well , either spectrum or cepstrumPhD B: I 'm just kidding .Professor A: but {disfmarker} {vocalsound} but I think the thing is you wanna {disfmarker}PhD B: I don't mean a graph . I mean the actual numbers .Professor A: Oh . I see . Oh . That would be lovely , yeah .PhD B: Yeah . " See how different these {vocalsound} sequences of numbers are ? "Professor A:Yeah . Or I could just add them up and get a different total .PhD B: Yeah . It 's not the square .Professor A: OK . Uh . What else {disfmarker} wh what 's {disfmarker} what else is going on ?PhD F: Uh , yeah . Yeah , atfirst I had a remark why {disfmarker} I am wondering why the PDA is always so far . I mean we are always meeting at the {vocalsound} beginning of the table and {vocalsound} the PDA 's there .Professor A: Uh . Iguess cuz we haven't wanted to move it . We {disfmarker} we could {disfmarker} {vocalsound} we could move us ,PhD F: Yeah ?Professor A: and .PhD F: OK .Grad E: That 's right .PhD F: Well , anyway . Um . Yeah ,so . Uh . Since the last meeting we 've {disfmarker} we 've tried to put together um {vocalsound} the clean low - pass um downsampling , upsampling , I mean , Uh the new filter that 's replacing the LDA filters , andalso {vocalsound} the um delay issue so that {disfmarker} We considered th the {disfmarker} the delay issue on the {disfmarker} for the on - line normalization . Mmm . So we 've put together all this and then wehave results that are not um {vocalsound} {vocalsound} very impressive . Well , there is no {vocalsound} real improvement .Professor A: But it 's not wer worse and it 's better {disfmarker} better latency ,PhD F: It 'snot {disfmarker}Professor A: right ?PhD F: Yeah . Yeah . Well . Actually it 's better . It seems better when we look at the mismatched case but {vocalsound} I think we are like {disfmarker} like cheated here by the{disfmarker} th this problem that {vocalsound} uh in some cases when you modify slight {disfmarker} slightly modify the initial condition you end up {vocalsound} completely somewhere air somewhere else in the{disfmarker} in the space , {vocalsound} the parameters .Professor A: Yeah .PhD F: So . Well . The other system are for instance . For Italian is at seventy - eight {vocalsound} percent recognition rate on themismatch , and this new system has eighty - nine . But I don't think it indicates something , really . I don't {disfmarker} I don't think it means that the new system is more robustProfessor A: Uh - huh .PhD F: or{disfmarker} It 's simply the fact that {disfmarker} Well .Professor A: Well , the test would be if you then tried it on one of the other test sets , if {disfmarker} if it was {disfmarker}PhD F: YProfessor A: Right . So thiswas Italian , right ?PhD F: Yeah . Yeah .Professor A: So then if you take your changesPhD F: It 's similar for other test setsProfessor A: and then {disfmarker}PhD F: but I mean {vocalsound} from this se seventy -eight um percent recognition rate system , {vocalsound} I could change the transition probabilities for the {disfmarker} the first HMM and {pause} it will end up to eighty - nine also .Professor A: Uh - huh .PhD F: Byusing point five instead of point six , point four {vocalsound} as in the {disfmarker} the HTK script .Professor A: Uh - huh . Yeah .PhD F: So . Well . That 's {disfmarker}PhD B: Yeah . Yeah I looked at um {disfmarker}{vocalsound} looked at the results when Stephane did thatPhD F: Well . Eh uh {disfmarker}PhD B: and it 's {disfmarker} it 's really wo really happens .PhD F: This really happens .PhD B: I mean th the only differenceis you change the self - loop transition probability by a tenth of a percentPhD F: Yeah .Professor A: Yeah .PhD B: and it causes ten percent difference in the word error rate .Professor A: A tenth of a per cent .PhD B:Yeah . From point {disfmarker}PhD F: Even tenth of a percent ?PhD B: I {disfmarker} I 'm sorryPhD F: Well , we tried {disfmarker} we tried point one ,PhD B: f for point {disfmarker} from {disfmarker} You change atpoint onePhD F: yeah .Professor A: Oh !PhD B: and n not tenth of a percent , one tenth ,PhD F: Hmm .Professor A: Yeah .PhD B: alright ? Um so from point five {disfmarker} so from point six to point five and you getten percent better .Professor A: Mm - hmm .PhD B: And it 's {disfmarker} {vocalsound} I think it 's what you basically hypothesized in the last meeting {vocalsound} about uh it just being very {disfmarker}PhD F: Mm- hmm .PhD B: and I think you mentioned this in your email too {disfmarker} it 's just very um {disfmarker}PhD F: Mmm , yeah .PhD B: you know get stuck in some local minimum and this thing throws you out of it Iguess .PhD F: Mm - hmm .Professor A: Well , what 's {disfmarker} what are {disfmarker} according to the rules what {disfmarker} what are we supposed to do about the transition probabilities ? Are they supposed tobe point five or point six ?PhD B: I think you 're not allowed to {disfmarker} Yeah . That 's supposed to be point six , for the self - loop .PhD F: Yeah .Professor A: Point {disfmarker} It 's supposed to be point six .PhDB: Yeah . But changing it to point five I think is {disfmarker} which gives you much better results , but that 's {vocalsound} not allowed .Professor A: But not allowed ? Yeah . OK .PhD B: Yeah .PhD F: Yeah , but even ifyou use point five , I 'm not sure it will always give you the better resultsPhD B: Yeah .PhD F: on other test set or itPhD B: Right . We only tested it on the {disfmarker} the medium mismatch ,PhD F: on the othertraining set , I mean .PhD B: right ? You said on the other cases you didn't notice {disfmarker}PhD F: Yeah . But . I think , yeah . I think the reason is , yeah , I not I {disfmarker} it was in my mail I think also ,{vocalsound} is the fact that the mismatch is trained only on the far microphone . Well , in {disfmarker} for the mismatched case everything is um using the far microphone training and testing , whereas for the highlymismatched , training is done on the close microphone so {vocalsound} it 's {disfmarker} it 's clean speech basically so you don't have this problem of local minima probably and for the well - match , it 's a mix of closemicrophone and distant microphone and {disfmarker} Well .PhD B: I did notice uh something {disfmarker}PhD F: So th I think the mismatch is the more difficult for the training part .PhD B: Somebody , I think it wasMorgan , suggested at the last meeting that I actually count to see {vocalsound} how many parameters and how many frames .Professor A: Mm - hmm .PhD F: Mm - hmm .PhD B: And there are uh almost one pointeight million frames of training data and less than forty thousand parameters in the baseline system .Professor A: Hmm .PhD F: Yeah .PhD B: So it 's very , very few parameters compared to how much training data.Professor A: Well . Yes .PhD D: Mm - hmm .Professor A: So . And that {disfmarker} that says that we could have lots more parameters actually .PhD B: Yeah . Yeah .PhD F: Mm - hmm .PhD B: I did one quickexperiment just to make sure I had everything worked out and I just {disfmarker} {vocalsound} uh f for most of the um {disfmarker} For {disfmarker} for all of the digit models , they end up at three mixtures perstate . And so I just did a quick experiment , where I changed it so it went to four and um {vocalsound} it it {disfmarker} it didn't have a r any significant effect at the uh medium mismatch and high mismatch casesand it had {disfmarker} {vocalsound} it was just barely significant for the well - matched better . Uh so I 'm r gonna run that again but {vocalsound} um with many more uh mixtures per state .Professor A: Yeah . Cuzat forty thou I mean you could you could have uh {disfmarker} Yeah , easily four times as many {vocalsound} parameters .PhD B: Mm - hmm . And I think also {vocalsound} just seeing what we saw {vocalsound} uhin terms of the expected duration of the silence model ? when we did this tweaking of the self - loop ? The silence model expected duration was really different .PhD F: Yeah .PhD B: And so in the case where{vocalsound} um {vocalsound} it had a better score , the silence model expected duration was much longer .PhD F: Yeah .PhD B: So it was like {disfmarker} {vocalsound} it was a better match . I think {vocalsound}you know if we make a better silence model I think that will help a lot too um for a lot of these cases so but one one thing I {disfmarker} I wanted to check out before I increased the um {vocalsound} number ofmixtures per state was {vocalsound} uh {vocalsound} in their {vocalsound} default training script they do an initial set of three re - estimations and then they built the silence model and then they do seven iterationsthen the add mixtures and they do another seven then they add mixtures then they do a final set of seven and they quit . Seven seems like a lot to me and it also makes the experiments go take a really long time Imean to do one turn - around of the well matched case takes like a day .Professor A: Mm - hmm . Mm - hmm .PhD B: And so {vocalsound} you know in trying to run these experiments I notice , you know , it 's difficultto find machines , you know , compute the run on . And so one of the things I did was I compiled HTK for the Linux {vocalsound} machinesProfessor A: Mm - hmm .PhD B: cuz we have this one from IBM that 's got likefive processors in it ?Professor A: Right .PhD B: and so now I 'm {disfmarker} you can run stuff on that and that really helps a lot because now we 've got {vocalsound} you know , extra machines that we can use forcompute . And if {disfmarker} I 'm do running an experiment right now where I 'm changing the number of iterations ? {vocalsound} from seven to three ?PhD D: Mm - hmm .Professor A: Yeah .PhD B: just to see howit affects the baseline system . And so if we can get away with just doing three , we can do {vocalsound} many more experiments more quickly . And if it 's not a {disfmarker} a huge difference from running with seveniterations , {vocalsound} um , you know , we should be able to get a lot more experiments done .PhD F: Hmm .PhD B: And so . I 'll let you know what {disfmarker} what happens with that . But if we can {vocalsound}you know , run all of these back - ends f with many fewer iterations and {vocalsound} on Linux boxes we should be able to get a lot more experimenting done .Professor A: Mm - hmm .PhD B: So . So I wanted toexperiment with cutting down the number of iterations before I {vocalsound} increased the number of Gaussians .Professor A: Right . Sorry . So um , how 's it going on the {disfmarker}PhD F: Um .Professor A: So .You {disfmarker} you did some things . They didn't improve things in a way that convinced you you 'd substantially improved anything .PhD F: Yeah .Professor A: But they 're not making things worse and we havereduced latency , right ?PhD F: Yeah . But actually {disfmarker} um actually it seems to do a little bit worse for the well - matched case and we just noticed that {disfmarker} Yeah , actually the way the final score iscomputed is quite funny . It 's not a mean of word error rate . It 's not a weighted mean of word error rate , it 's a weighted mean of improvements .Professor A: Uh - huh .PhD F: So . Which means that {vocalsound}actually the weight on the well - matched is {disfmarker} Well I well what what {disfmarker} What happened is that if you have a small improvement or a small if on the well - matched case {vocalsound} it will have uhhuge influence on the improvement compared to the reference because the reference system is {disfmarker} is {disfmarker} is quite good for {disfmarker} for the well - ma well - matched case also .PhD B: So it{disfmarker} it weights the improvement on the well - matched case really heavily compared to the improvement on the other cases ?PhD F: No , but it 's the weighting of the {disfmarker} of the improvement not ofthe error rate .PhD B: Yeah . Yeah , and it 's hard to improve on the {disfmarker} on the best case , cuz it 's already so good , right ?PhD F: Yeah but {pause} what I mean is that you can have a huge improvement onthe H {disfmarker} HMK 's , uh like five percent uh absolute , and this will not affect the final score almost {disfmarker} Uh this will almost not affect the final score because {vocalsound} this improvement{disfmarker} because the improvement {vocalsound} uh relative to the {disfmarker} the baseline is small {disfmarker}Professor A: So they do improvement in terms of uh accuracy ? rather than word error rate ?PhDF: Uh . Uh improvement ?Professor A: So {disfmarker}PhD F: No , it 's compared to the word er it 's improvement on the word error rate ,Professor A: OK .PhD F: yeah . Sorry .Professor A: So if you have uh tenpercent error and you get five percent absolute uh {vocalsound} improvement then that 's fifty percent .PhD F: Mm - hmm .Professor A: OK . So what you 're saying then is that if it 's something that has a small word


Industrial Designer: 'S to do now is to decide how to fulfil what your stuff is ,Marketing: Yeah .Industrial Designer: so in that sense {disfmarker}Project Manager: Okay .Marketing: Yeah , sure .Industrial Designer: so itdoes kind of make sense , yeah .Project Manager: Okay , well {disfmarker}Marketing: It kinda does make sense , doesn't it , because when we get into the end of meeting we're kind of {vocalsound} talking aboutaction and design as opposed to background .Industrial Designer: Yep .Project Manager: Okay .Marketing: Everything I have is kinda background .Project Manager: Okay we all ready to go ?Industrial Designer: Yep.Project Manager: Well how um on the {disfmarker} in this meeting then if we um {disfmarker} I'll just just recap on the minutes from the last meeting . And we uh decided onIndustrial Designer: Yep .Project Manager:decided on our our target group being fifteen to thirty five ,Marketing: {vocalsound} Mm-hmm .Project Manager: and we decided that it was gonna be non-rechargeable battery-powered , that we're gonna group ouraudio-visual and other functions into into those categories , um {vocalsound} . And I told you guys about the three new requirements about ignoring teletext , ignoring everything except the T_V_ , and trying toincorporate the the uh corporate colour and slogan . Um so that was the last meeting .Industrial Designer: Mm-hmm .Project Manager: Is there anything {disfmarker} have I forgotten anything ?Industrial Designer: No.Project Manager: Is that everything ?Marketing: Uh that sounds {gap} .Project Manager: Okay . Um so if we have the three presentations , and then if you have anything to kind of {disfmarker} that you know you'regonna want to discuss , maybe just make a note of it , and we'll have all the discussion at the end . That might be a better idea this time .Marketing: Sure .Project Manager: And so if we start off uh with Andrew andthen Craig and then David ,Marketing: Okay .Project Manager: if that's alright .Marketing: Sure .Industrial Designer: Yep .Project Manager: Um and then after that we'll have to make some decisions about stuff , right{vocalsound} .Marketing: Yeah , cool .Project Manager: So if you wanna take this .Marketing: Why don't I get that {vocalsound} ? Hmm .Project Manager: {vocalsound} Screwed in quite tightly . Uh what did{disfmarker} uh how did we leave it with speech recognition now ? We {disfmarker} did we say we were gonna try {disfmarker} maybe incorporate it but we hadn't made a definite decision on that ?IndustrialDesigner: Mm-hmm .Project Manager: Right . Oh I should also point out that um the you know the kind of final objective of this meeting is to reach a decision on the concepts of the product .Marketing: Okay .{vocalsound}Project Manager: So um {vocalsound} that's kind of the end result hopefully .Marketing: Okay . Um alright so c is it function F_ eight ?Project Manager: {vocalsound} Uh-huh . Hopefully appear in a weesecond .Marketing: Hmm . Come on . I think it's working .Project Manager: Up there we go .Marketing: Okay great s so let me just start this . {vocalsound} Okay great . So um {vocalsound} uh s move on . Uh-huh{disfmarker} oh where'd it all go ?Project Manager: {vocalsound} Oh no .Marketing: It's not good . Okay lemme just see where I can find it . This looks more like it . I think I just opened up the template .ProjectManager: Oh right .Marketing: Sorry about that . Okay alright so let's have a look here .Project Manager: Here we go .Marketing: Okay so this was the method that um I've taken . Uh basically what I wanna do here ,before we get into it uh too far , is I want to show you all the background information I have that I think we need to acknowledge if we want this to be successful .Project Manager: Okay .Marketing: And uh and thensorta g go through some of the way that I've dealt with that information , and then sort of bring us all together into it to see {disfmarker} sorta see how this fits in with the overall vision . Um so I've tried to take awhole lot of market research and summarise it for us , and then ide identify uh trends that are are sort of in sync and are important to our our uh p project plan that we have so far , and then uh initiate a kind ofdiscussion on design options so that it sorta helps us to to narrow in on on aspects that will inform other uh other elements of the of the project . Does that make sense , tha that sort of strategy ?Industrial Designer:Yep .Project Manager: Mm-hmm .Marketing: I thought that that will impact on the rest of what we do , so that's why I suggested we get in this .Project Manager: Aye a fair point definitely .Marketing: Okay so out of umdifferent uh figures and ratings ob uh of people in general , um consumers in general , the number one thing that was found was that uh the br t television remote control , a fancy look and feel , okay , and not , itspecified , not a functional look or or feel , uh b f f fancy .Project Manager: Okay .Marketing: Um however , this is where we kinda have to be very , I think , creative about it . Number two was that it be innovative .Okay so that tells me that we have to find a way to be innovative without a adding just unnecessary um sort of functional bits to it . Uh and third priority uh for ease of use , so again that kind of gives us a generalpicture of how it has to be , um {vocalsound} quite user friendly while still having technology . So it {disfmarker} I'll just say right away as a bit of a foreshadowing into how we proceed with this in terms of mmarketing , is that I think um {vocalsound} what we should think about is how the um {vocalsound} about how the innovation uh contributes to the look and feel , and not so much to the functionality of it .ProjectManager: {vocalsound} Aye right .Marketing: For example like when you pick it up and push it like it all lights up or something , you know what I mean , like , or it's got something else to it that just seemsinnovativeProject Manager: Uh-huh .Marketing: because obviously the thing that {disfmarker} the message here is ease of use . So how do you make innovation make something more {vocalsound} more easy to use ?Well that's I guess where we're gonna go with this .Project Manager: Okay .Marketing: Okay then there's the other aspect of the back the the market um research I have here is on fashion style , okay , which as we'veagreed is a priority . Uh top European fashion trend um {vocalsound} that I read about says there's this emerging theme of fruit and vegetables , okay ,Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}Project Manager:{vocalsound}Marketing: especially in clothes and furniture . And when I first saw that I thought hmm , well do we want to actually try and think about this trend and how we add something to it , or we get right into it ,or we completely steer away from it ,Project Manager: Okay okay .Marketing: do you know what I mean ? So my my feeling is that we w do want to observe this trend , but we want to think also about the fact that itsort of has to fit in with something which is not specifically electronics . Um 'cause I think what we're in what we're in is partly sort of home decor , partly something like a computer , um {vocalsound} so I think wemight wanna be careful about how you know how quickly we create like a remote control in the shape of an apple or something ,Project Manager: {vocalsound}Marketing: I think that would be pushing it .IndustrialDesigner: {vocalsound}Marketing: And then in terms of m material trends are for things to be soft and spongy and sort of , you might say ergonomic or or friendly to handle , which is {disfmarker} which also inindicated that last year this was this was not the case . So um probably a lot of the competition on the market will be still in last year's mode , so if we try and really capitalise on that , I think that'll be in our favour . Um{disfmarker} So these this is the summary of everything . Um style is number one uh thing in the in the market of who we're selling to . Uh innovative design technology's also a must in that it's seen {disfmarker} it'dbe seen to be uh cutting edge , uh but ease of use t has to be insured throughout . That was like the number three thing . And then at the end there are vibrant natural colours um that's the way I interpreted it anyway ,softness in materials , shape , and function , and so I've written at written at the bottom to give us sort of a context of discussion , Mac iPods ,Project Manager: Mm-hmm .Marketing: something which is , I'd have to sayvery high-tech , ten gigabytes , whatever , but when you hold it in your hand there's like no buttons .Project Manager: Mm that's true , yeah .Marketing: You know what a Mac iPod is ? I'm thinking however Mac iPod issort of last year's because it's very hard and sort of glassy and glossy , so I'm thinking if we imagine that we're taking some of the features of a Mac iPod and we're then making it s more of like a more of like acomfortable type of {disfmarker} or more of like a {disfmarker} {vocalsound} maybe more vibrant to friendly thing to have . Um and then so this is w with all that information what I'm what I'm suggesting in this slidehere is that we we take these ideas , and as we get into more the more um {vocalsound} techni like sort of production side of things , that we think about shape , materials , and themes or series that go throughout .Sort of like a {disfmarker} I dunno like um we think of some kind of a thin theme that unifies it all , that we agree on , uh sorta like a marketing identity . Um {disfmarker} Does that make sense ? Yeah . So{vocalsound} so like I threw out a few ideas there just to kinda get us thinking along those lines like lemon , lime , I dunno , green colours , pe whatever , it's just an idea , 'cause I'm thinking that some of these ideaswill seem quite coherent if we use them in terms of their {disfmarker} what people associate this {disfmarker} them with in terms of texture , shape , colours , things like that .Project Manager: Mm 'kay . Great.Marketing: Like um the ones the ones which I'm most fond of in terms of giving like a theme to it would be like um like lemon or something like that , you know something which is , like you see a lot in in other areas .Like I see lots of websites and things that seem to associate with like lemon and lime and {disfmarker}Project Manager: Okay .Marketing: So anyway it's just just an idea .Project Manager: Yeah .Marketing: I'mthinking maybe we could incorporate some of these features into a fairly um {disfmarker} {vocalsound} into something which is {disfmarker} which seems to have something to it which is almost gimmicky because likeum like something to do with like lighting within it . Like you know just within the simple sense , when you pick up a phone and touch a button it uh lights up , q usually the buttons light up .Project Manager: Ah.Marketing: How can we build on that ? Maybe like it could light up in different colours or something or or people could buy the buy the control and then it comes with different like covers or something so .ProjectManager: Okay .Marketing: Anyway those are {disfmarker} that's all I have ,Project Manager: That's great .Marketing: but uh hopefully we can we can revisit those ideas when we get into {disfmarker}Project Manager:Uh-huh . Okay great .Marketing: {gap}Project Manager: Um thank you for that . Uh Craig do you wannaMarketing: Yep .Project Manager: uh plug yours in then ?User Interface: Is it working ?Project Manager:{vocalsound} Mm . Not quite .Marketing: Did you press F_ eight ?Industrial Designer: It's probably not sending . Yeah .Project Manager: Oh something coming now , yeah .Marketing: {vocalsound}Industrial Designer:Yep , there it is .Project Manager: There we go .User Interface: And so think of this concept . Um to research it I've um had a look on the the homepage again . It's provided me with more examples of um previouslyexisting c remote controls . Um there's a wee bit of discussion about the other existing ones there , um so I've taken the um suggestions from them and tried to incorporate them into this um {disfmarker} So then this{disfmarker} we're looking for um suggestions on size th um size of control and the buttons , um the shape of the control , and whereabout the buttons should be located on the control .Project Manager: Mm .UserInterface: Um what I found from the research is that most the current controls are just basically big bricks with loads of buttons all over them . Um they're not very attractive to look at , {vocalsound} and they're notvery comfortable to hold , they're {disfmarker} I just hold 'em like big bricks , and they're very easily lost . Um they tend to be very dark colours , so if there are shadowy places down the side of couches you can'treally see them . {vocalsound}Project Manager: Mm-hmm .User Interface: Um {vocalsound} the the controls themselves tend to use a very inconsistent colour scheme . Um for instance , the stand-by button isn'talways red , uh it really should be . It's uh something the user then uh identify with . This is a red switch off , that's how it should be . Um I'm not sure if there's any other examples of that , but something to look out for. Um there's a problem that I've I've got couple of preferences for the the end control {vocalsound} um I get 'em with the the red colour button for stand-by and s the other examples of that {vocalsound} um{disfmarker} {vocalsound} The buttons should be large . They shouldn't be tiny little things like you get on some mobile phones . They should be easy to press , very comfortable . {vocalsound} Um one of theexamples given on the homepage was um {vocalsound} there's an up and down volume button but both of them have a V_ on them ,Project Manager: Mm-hmm .User Interface: so the up volume button looks like itshould be a down volume button , that's kinda confusing . Um should avoid s things like that . Um {vocalsound} if the the corporate colour scheme allows it we should have a very bright colour so that it can be easilyidentified anywhere .Project Manager: Okay .User Interface: Um obviously trying trying to avoid being tacky there , but it could um tie-in very easily with your your lime and lemon idea .Marketing: Yeah . Okay , do wehave a corporate colour scheme ?Project Manager: {vocalsound} I think it's yellowMarketing: I didn't know .Project Manager: because like the website is yellow and there's a band at the bottom is yellow ,Marketing:{vocalsound} Okay .Industrial Designer: And the Play-Doh 's yellow {vocalsound} .Project Manager: so yellow , lemon , you know definitely food for thought there ,Marketing: Okay .User Interface: Fantastic .{vocalsound}Project Manager: but keep goingMarketing: Okay .Project Manager: and we'll discuss it after .User Interface: UmMarketing: Yeah .User Interface: any extra features we add beyond the basic ones shouldbe m hidden , they shouldn't be on the {vocalsound} {disfmarker} um shouldn't be visible without something be opened or some sort of special extra effort .Project Manager: Mm-hmm .User Interface: {vocalsound}Um if we did decide to go for voice activation {vocalsound} there sh should always be a button as alternative , possibly hidden in the the opened up section um making that something is wrong with it or withsomebody's voice , maybe they got a cold or {disfmarker} Um {vocalsound} we should definitely avoid the big square block look . That's just wrong .Project Manager: Mm 'kay .Marketing: Mm-hmm .User Interface:And um we got an email uh from I think it's the the research department , {vocalsound} and they've said th the voice control um can now talk back if you ask it a question .Project Manager: Mm .User Interface: So it shit could be good to have them um confirm any action you takeProject Manager: Aye that's a good idea , yeah .User Interface: and {gap} possibility . Right and these are problems I've had with it . Um I don't knowwhere the slogan should go , or really what the slogan is . I think it's um , fashion into electronics .Project Manager: Yeah .User Interface: And we don't know how flexible the colour scheme is . I mean you say youwanted the the corporate colours , but they don't say you know if we can use any other colours at all or {disfmarker}Marketing: Mm .Project Manager: Okay .Marketing: Mm .Industrial Designer: Cool .User Interface:That's it .Project Manager: Okay .Marketing: Great . {vocalsound} Lots of good information there .Industrial Designer: Mm-hmm .Project Manager: Yeah that that was very good ,Industrial Designer: Mm 'kay um.Project Manager: and uh now with David .Marketing: {vocalsound}User Interface: I think I'm cool .Marketing: It's a shame the cable wasn't just in the middle {gap} {vocalsound} of the table ,Project Manager: I knowit'd be handy , wouldn't it .User Interface: {vocalsound}Marketing: huh ? Just um {disfmarker}Industrial Designer: Oops .Project Manager: Do y do you wanna sit in the the line of sight of this um{disfmarker}Industrial Designer: Yeah okay . Let me just get this going first .Project Manager: Yeah .Industrial Designer: Ah there it is . {vocalsound}Project Manager: {vocalsound} {vocalsound}{vocalsound}Marketing: {vocalsound} It takes a second , doesn't it ?Industrial Designer: 'Kay , that should be it . Okay um I guess the same thing again , I started with something very basic .Marketing:{vocalsound}Industrial Designer: So just so you guys have some idea of what's involved in my process , um and then you can just work through itMarketing: Mm-hmm .Industrial Designer: and we 'll either modify it orstart from scratch um depending on what your needs are . Um the components are exactly the same .Project Manager: Mm-hmm .Industrial Designer: Um I think , like what you guys said , um the most input that'sneeded is basically in the user interface . The rest of the components um they do have an impact in terms of cost and complexity . Um like you said time to market was a problem , um and how many components arephysically in there in cost . And the power is basically a factor of that . Um and the lower components , the power , the logic , the transmitter , and the infrared , um they affect you in terms of the size of your device ,um and that would have some inte impact on how y I think more how you hold rather than um the actual use using the the remote control because um like we've said {disfmarker} we've defined , like we only want thebasic things that {disfmarker} to be visible , and the rest of them we try to hide . So um you know it's just a matter of working out space .Marketing: Mm-hmm .Industrial Designer: So I guess three things , um cost ,um complexity , and the size . These are the three things that um will have an impact on you . So just go through it in the components . Um these are the options that are available to you , um I'm not very sure aboutthe voice thing 'cause I got another email and it was in fact quite sketchy on what n the voice options are .User Interface: Right .Industrial Designer: Um it said it could talk to you , but it never said anything aboutbeing able to listen . I it said something about a sensor but never clarified that .Marketing: Mm .Industrial Designer: So maybe if you {disfmarker}Project Manager: Hmm .Industrial Designer: well I could see the otheremail that they sent you , um 'cause they got back to me with like different requirements {vocalsound} , or different offerings of what components availa Okay so your basic components are buttons ,User Interface:Right .Industrial Designer: okay and you have a wheel available , like a mouse scroll wheel ,Project Manager: Mm .Marketing: Mm-hmm .Industrial Designer: okay there's an L_C_D_ display ,Marketing:{vocalsound}Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} um I think these are quite standard things .Marketing: They're standard , aren't they ?Industrial Designer: No um they're {disfmarker} well in the sense that these are allthe options available for you . I'll explain to you the complexity and the cost thing again a bit later .Marketing: Yeah .Industrial Designer: Okay um then there's um how the case actually looks . It can actually be flat orit can be curved , um and then the different types of materials that you can use , um I don't think you can use them in a combination , um but umProject Manager: Mm-hmm .Industrial Designer: I could check back foryou , but I don't think you can actually use them in a combination .Project Manager: We {disfmarker} you couldn't have like plastic and rubber ?Industrial Designer: Um I think plastic and rubber would be fine , butplastic , rubber , and wood , I wasn't {disfmarker} I'm not very sure about the titanium .Project Manager: Yeah .Industrial Designer: They had some restrictions on using the rubber and the titanium .Marketing: Hmm.Industrial Designer: Um the rubber was a restriction on the kind of power source you could use ,Project Manager: Mm 'kay .Industrial Designer: but the titanium had a different kind of things on the shape of the thing