Professor A: We 're going ? OK . Sh - Close your door on {disfmarker} door on the way out ?Grad B: OK . Thanks .Professor A: Thanks .Grad B: Oh .Professor A: Yeah . Probably wanna get this other door , too . OK . So. Um . {vocalsound} {vocalsound} What are we talking about today ?PhD E: Uh , well , first there are perhaps these uh Meeting Recorder digits that we tested .Professor A: Oh , yeah . That was kind of uh interesting.PhD E: So .Professor A: The {disfmarker} both the uh {disfmarker} {vocalsound} the SRI System and the othPhD E: Um .Professor A: And for one thing that {disfmarker} that sure shows the {vocalsound} differencebetween having a lot of uh training data {vocalsound} or not ,PhD E: Of data ? Yeah .Professor A: uh , the uh {disfmarker} {vocalsound} The best kind of number we have on the English uh {disfmarker} on nearmicrophone only is {disfmarker} is uh three or four percent .PhD E: Mm - hmm .Professor A: And uh it 's significantly better than that , using fairly simple front - ends {vocalsound} on {disfmarker} {vocalsound} onthe uh {disfmarker} {vocalsound} uh , with the SRI system .PhD E: Mm - hmm .Professor A: So I th I think that the uh {disfmarker} But that 's {disfmarker} that 's using uh a {disfmarker} a pretty huge amount ofdata , mostly not digits , of course , but {disfmarker} but then again {disfmarker} Well , yeah . In fact , mostly not digits for the actual training the H M Ms whereas uh in this case we 're just using digits for training theH MPhD E: Yeah . Right .Professor A: Did anybody mention about whether the {disfmarker} the SRI system is a {disfmarker} {vocalsound} is {disfmarker} is doing the digits um the wor as a word model or as uh a subs sub - phone states ?PhD E: I guess it 's {disfmarker} it 's uh allophone models ,Professor A: Yeah . Probably .PhD E: so , well {disfmarker}Professor A: Huh ?PhD E: Yeah . I think so , because it 's their very d huge ,their huge system .Professor A: Yeah .PhD E: And . But . So . There is one difference {disfmarker} Well , the SRI system {disfmarker} the result for the SRI system that are represented here are with adaptation . Sothere is {disfmarker} It 's their complete system and {disfmarker} including on - line uh unsupervised adaptation .Professor A: That 's true .PhD E: And if you don't use adaptation , the error rate is around fifty percentworse , I think , if I remember .Professor A: OK .PhD E: Yeah .Professor A: It 's tha it 's that much , huh ?PhD E: Nnn . It 's {disfmarker} Yeah . It 's quite significant .Professor A: Oh . OK .PhD E: Yeah .Professor A: Still.PhD E: Mm - hmm .Professor A: But {disfmarker} but uh what {disfmarker} what I think I 'd be interested to do given that , is that we {disfmarker} we should uh {vocalsound} take {disfmarker} I guess thatsomebody 's gonna do this , right ? {disfmarker} is to take some of these tandem things and feed it into the SRI system , right ?PhD E: Yeah .Professor A: Yeah .PhD E: We can do something like that .Professor A: Yeah. Because {disfmarker}PhD E: Yeah . But {disfmarker} But I guess the main point is the data because uh {vocalsound} I am not sure . Our back - end is {disfmarker} is fairly simple but until now , well , the attemptsto improve it or {disfmarker} have fail Ah , well , I mean uh what Chuck tried to {disfmarker} to {disfmarker} to doProfessor A: Yeah , but he 's doing it with the same data , right ? I mean so to {disfmarker}{vocalsound} So there 's {disfmarker} there 's {disfmarker} there 's two things being affected .PhD E: Yeah . So it 's {disfmarker} Yeah .Professor A: I mean . One is that {disfmarker} that , you know , there 'ssomething simple that 's wrong with the back - end . We 've been playing a number of statesPhD E: Mm - hmm .Professor A: uh I {disfmarker} I don't know if he got to the point of playing with the uh number ofGaussians yetPhD E: Mm - hmm .Professor A: but {disfmarker} but uh , uh , you know . But , yeah , so far he hadn't gotten any big improvement ,PhD E: Mm - hmm .Professor A: but that 's all with the same amount ofdata which is pretty small .PhD E: Yeah .Professor A: And um .PhD E: Mmm . So , yeah , we could retrain some of these tandem on {disfmarker} on huge {disfmarker}Professor A: Well , you could do that , but I 'msaying even with it not {disfmarker} with that part not retrained , just {disfmarker} just using {disfmarker} having the H M Ms {disfmarker} much better H MPhD E: Ah , yeah . Just {disfmarker} f for the HMM models.Professor A: Yeah .PhD E: Yeah . Mm - hmm . Mm - hmm .Professor A: Um . {vocalsound} But just train those H M Ms using different features , the features coming from our Aurora stuff .PhD E: Yeah .Professor A: So.PhD E: Yeah . But {vocalsound} what would be interesting to see also is what {disfmarker} what {disfmarker} perhaps it 's not related , the amount of data but the um recording conditions . I don't know . Because{vocalsound} it 's probably not a problem of noise , because our features are supposed to be robust to noise .Professor A: Well , yeah .PhD E: It 's not a problem of channel , because there is um {vocalsound}{vocalsound} normalization with respect to the channel . So {disfmarker}Professor A: I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I 'm sorry . What {disfmarker} what is the problem that you 're trying to explain ?PhD E: The{disfmarker} the fact that {disfmarker} the result with the tandem and Aurora system are {vocalsound} uh so much worse .Professor A: That the {disfmarker} Oh . So much worse ? Oh .PhD E: Yeah .Professor A: I uhbut I 'm {disfmarker} I 'm almost certain that it {disfmarker} it {disfmarker} {vocalsound} I mean , that it has to do with the um amount of training data .PhD E: It {disfmarker}Professor A: It {disfmarker} it 's{disfmarker} it 's orders of magnitude off .PhD E: Yeah but {disfmarker} Yeah . Yeah but we train only on digits and it 's {disfmarker} it 's a digit task , so . Well .Professor A: But {disfmarker} but having a huge{disfmarker} If {disfmarker} {vocalsound} if you look at what commercial places do , they use a huge amount of data .PhD E: It {disfmarker} Mm - hmm .Professor A: This is a modest amount of data .PhD E: Alright .Yeah .Professor A: So . {vocalsound} I mean , ordinarily you would say " well , given that you have enough occurrences of the digits , you can just train with digits rather than with , you know " {disfmarker}PhD E: Mm- hmm . Mm - hmm .Professor A: But the thing is , if you have a huge {disfmarker} in other words , do word models {disfmarker} But if you have a huge amount of data then you 're going to have many occurrences ofsimilar uh allophones .PhD E: Right . Mmm .Professor A: And that 's just a huge amount of training for it .PhD E: Yeah .Professor A: So it 's {vocalsound} um {disfmarker} {vocalsound} I {disfmarker} I think it has tobe that , because , as you say , this is , you know , this is near - microphone ,PhD E: Mm - hmm .Professor A: it 's really pretty clean data .PhD E: Mm - hmm .Professor A: Um . Now , some of it could be the fact that uh{disfmarker} let 's see , in the {disfmarker} in these multi - train things did we include noisy data in the training ?PhD E: Yeah .Professor A: I mean , that could be hurting us actually , for the clean case .PhD E: Yeah .Well , actually we see that the clean train for the Aurora proposals are {disfmarker} are better than the multi - train ,Professor A: It is if {disfmarker} Yeah .PhD E: yeah .Professor A: Yeah . Cuz this is clean data , andso that 's not too surprising .PhD E: Mm - hmm .Professor A: But um . Uh . So .PhD E: Well , o I guess what I meant is that well , let 's say if we {disfmarker} if we add enough data to train on the um on the MeetingRecorder digits , I guess we could have better results than this .Professor A: Uh - huh . Mm - hmm .PhD E: And . What I meant is that perhaps we can learn something uh from this , what 's {disfmarker} what 's wronguh what {disfmarker} what is different between TI - digits and these digits and {disfmarker}Professor A: What kind of numbers are we getting on TI - digits ?PhD E: It 's point eight percent , so .Professor A: Oh . I see.PhD E: Four - Fourier .Professor A: So in the actual TI - digits database we 're getting point eight percent ,PhD E: Yeah . Yeah .Professor A: and here we 're getting three or four {disfmarker} three , let 's see , three forthis ?PhD E: Mm - hmm .Professor A: Yeah . Sure , but I mean , um point eight percent is something like double uh or triple what people have gotten who 've worked very hard at doing that .PhD E: Mm - hmm.Professor A: And {disfmarker} and also , as you point out , there 's adaptation in these numbers also . So if you , you know , put the ad adap take the adaptation off , then it {disfmarker} for the English - Near you getsomething like two percent .PhD E: Mmm .Professor A: And here you had , you know , something like three point four . And I could easily see that difference coming from this huge amount of data that it was trained on.PhD E: Mm - hmm .Professor A: So it 's {disfmarker}PhD E: Mm - hmm .Professor A: You know , I don't think there 's anything magical here .PhD E: Yeah .Professor A: It 's , you know , we used a simple HTK systemwith a modest amount of data . And this is a {disfmarker} a , you know , modern {vocalsound} uh system uh has {disfmarker} has a lot of nice points to it .PhD E: Yeah . Mm - hmm .Professor A: Um . So . I mean ,the HTK is an older HTK , even . So . Yeah it {disfmarker} it 's not that surprising .PhD E: Mm - hmm .Professor A: But to me it just {disfmarker} it just meant a practical {vocalsound} point that um if we want to{vocalsound} publish results on digits that {disfmarker} that people pay {vocalsound} attention to we probably should uh {disfmarker} Cuz we 've had the problem before that you get {disfmarker} show some{vocalsound} nice improvement on something that 's {disfmarker} that 's uh , uh {disfmarker} it seems like too large a number , and uh {vocalsound} uh people don't necessarily take it so seriously .PhD E: Mm -hmm .Professor A: Um . Yeah . Yeah . So the three point four percent for this uh is {disfmarker} is uh {disfmarker} So why is it {disfmarker} It 's an interesting question though , still . Why is {disfmarker} why is itthree point four percent for the d the digits recorded in this environment as opposed to {vocalsound} the uh point eight percent for {disfmarker} for {disfmarker} for the original TI - digits database ? Um .PhD E: Yeah .th that 's {disfmarker} th that 's my pointProfessor A: Given {disfmarker} given the same {disfmarker} Yeah . So ignore {disfmarker} ignoring the {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} the SRI system for a moment ,PhD E:I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I don't I {disfmarker} Mm - hmm .Professor A: just looking at {vocalsound} the TI - di the uh tandem system , if we 're getting point eight percent , which , yes , it 's high . It 's , youknow , it {disfmarker} it 's not awfully high ,PhD E: Mm - hmm .Professor A: but it 's , you know {disfmarker} it 's {disfmarker} it 's high . Um . {vocalsound} Why is it {vocalsound} uh four times as high , or more?PhD E: Yeah , I guess .Professor A: Right ? I mean , there 's {disfmarker} {vocalsound} even though it 's close - miked there 's still {disfmarker} there really is background noise .PhD E: Mm - hmm .Professor A: Um .And {vocalsound} uh I suspect when the TI - digits were recorded if somebody fumbled or said something wrong or something that they probably made them take it over .PhD E: Mm - hmm .Professor A: It was not{disfmarker} I mean there was no attempt to have it be realistic in any {disfmarker} in any sense at all .PhD E: Well . Yeah . And acoustically , it 's q it 's {disfmarker} I listened . It 's quite different . TI - digit is{disfmarker} it 's very , very clean and it 's like studio recordingProfessor A: Mm - hmm .PhD E: whereas these Meeting Recorder digits sometimes you have breath noise and Mmm .Professor A: Right . Yeah . So I thinkthey were {disfmarker}PhD E: It 's {nonvocalsound} not controlled at all , I mean .Professor A: Bless you .Grad B: Thanks .Professor A: I {disfmarker} Yeah . I think it 's {disfmarker} it 's {disfmarker} So . Yes .PhDE: Mm - hmm . ButProfessor A: It 's {disfmarker} I think it 's {disfmarker} it 's the indication it 's harder .PhD E: Yeah .Professor A: Uh . {vocalsound} Yeah and again , you know , i that 's true either way . I mean sotake a look at the uh {disfmarker} {vocalsound} um , the SRI results . I mean , they 're much much better , but still you 're getting something like one point three percent for uh things that are same data as in T{disfmarker} TI - digits the same {disfmarker} same text .PhD E: Mm - hmm .Professor A: Uh . And uh , I 'm sure the same {disfmarker} same system would {disfmarker} would get , you know , point {disfmarker}point three or point four or something {vocalsound} on the actual TI - digits . So this {disfmarker} I think , on both systems the {vocalsound} these digits are showing up as harder .PhD E: Mmm .Professor A: Um .PhDE: Mm - hmm .Professor A: Which I find sort of interesting cause I think this is closer to {disfmarker} uh I mean it 's still read . But I still think it 's much closer to {disfmarker} to what {disfmarker} what peopleactually face , {vocalsound} um when they 're {disfmarker} they 're dealing with people saying digits over the telephone . I mean . {vocalsound} I don't think uh {disfmarker} I mean , I 'm sure they wouldn't releasethe numbers , but I don't think that uh {vocalsound} the uh {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} the companies that {disfmarker} that do telephone {vocalsound} speech get anything like point four percent on their{vocalsound} digits . I 'm {disfmarker} I 'm {disfmarker} I 'm sure they get {disfmarker} Uh , I mean , for one thing people do phone up who don't have uh uh Middle America accents and it 's a we we it 's{disfmarker} it 's {disfmarker} it 's US .PhD E: Mm - hmm .Professor A: it has {disfmarker} has many people {vocalsound} {vocalsound} who sound in many different ways . So . Um . I mean . OK . That was that topic. What else we got ?PhD E: Um .Professor A: Did we end up giving up on {disfmarker} on , any Eurospeech submissions ,PhD E: But {disfmarker}Professor A: or {disfmarker} ? I know Thilo and Dan Ellis are{disfmarker} are submitting something , but uh .PhD E: Yeah . I {disfmarker} {vocalsound} I guess e the only thing with these {disfmarker} the Meeting Recorder and , well , {disfmarker} So , I think , yeah{disfmarker} I think we basically gave up .Professor A: Um . {vocalsound} Now , actually for the {disfmarker} for the Aur - uhPhD E: But {disfmarker}Professor A: we do have stuff for Aurora , right ? Because{disfmarker} because we have ano an extra month or something .PhD E: Yeah . Yeah . Yeah . So . Yeah , for sure we will do something for the special session .Professor A: Yeah . Well , that 's fine . So th so{disfmarker} so we have a couple {disfmarker} a couple little things on Meeting RecorderPhD E: Yeah . Mm - hmm .Professor A: and we have {disfmarker} {vocalsound} We don't {disfmarker} we don't have to flood itwith papers . We 're not trying to prove anything to anybody . so . That 's fine . Um . Anything else ?PhD E: Yeah . Well . So . Perhaps the point is that we 've been working on {vocalsound} is , yeah , we have put theum the good VAD in the system and {vocalsound} it really makes a huge difference . Um . So , yeah . I think , yeah , this is perhaps one of the reason why our system was not {disfmarker} {vocalsound} not the best ,because with the new VAD , it 's very {disfmarker} the results are similar to the France Telecom results and perhaps even better sometimes .Professor A: Hmm .Grad B: Huh .PhD E: Um . So there is this point . Uh .The problem is that it 's very big and {vocalsound} {vocalsound} we still have to think how to {disfmarker} where to put it and {disfmarker} {vocalsound} um ,Professor A: Mm - hmm .PhD E: because it {disfmarker}it {disfmarker} well , this VAD uh either some delay and we {disfmarker} if we put it on the server side , it doesn't work , because on the server side features you already have LDA applied {vocalsound} from the f fromthe terminal side and {vocalsound} so you accumulate the delay so the VAD should be before the LDA which means perhaps on the terminal side and then smaller {vocalsound} andProfessor A: So wha where did thisgood VAD come from ?PhD E: So . It 's um from OGI . So it 's the network trained {disfmarker} it 's the network with the huge amounts on hidden {disfmarker} of hidden units , and um nine input frames compared tothe VAD that was in the proposal which has a very small amount of hidden units and fewer inputs .Professor A: This is the one they had originally ?PhD E: Yeah .Professor A: Oh . Yeah , but they had to {pause} get ridof it because of the space , didn't they ?PhD E: Yeah . So . Yeah . But the abso assumption is that we will be able to make a VAD that 's small and that works fine . And . So we can {disfmarker}Professor A: Well . Sothat 's a problem . Yeah .PhD E: Yeah but {disfmarker} nnn .Professor A: But the other thing is uh to use a different VAD entirely . I mean , uh i if {disfmarker} if there 's a {vocalsound} if {disfmarker} if {disfmarker}I {disfmarker} I don't know what the thinking was amongst the {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} the {vocalsound} the ETSI folk but um if everybody agreed sure let 's use this VAD and take that out of there{disfmarker}PhD E: Mm - hmm . Mm - hmm . They just want , apparently {disfmarker} they don't want to fix the VAD because they think there is some interaction between feature extraction and {disfmarker} andVAD or frame dropping But they still {vocalsound} want to {disfmarker} just to give some um {vocalsound} requirement for this VAD because it 's {disfmarker} it will not be part of {disfmarker} they don't want it tobe part of the standard .Professor A: OK .PhD E: So . So it must be at least uh somewhat fixed but not completely . So there just will be some requirements that are still not {disfmarker} uh not yet uh ready I think.Professor A: Determined . I see . But I was thinking that {disfmarker} that uh {vocalsound} s " Sure , there may be some interaction ,PhD E: Nnn .Professor A: but I don't think we need to be stuck on using our or OGI's {pause} VAD . We could use somebody else 's if it 's smaller or {disfmarker}PhD E: Yeah .Professor A: You know , as long as it did the job .PhD E: Mm - hmm .Professor A: So that 's good .PhD E: Uh . So there is thisthing . There is um {disfmarker} Yeah . Uh I designed a new {disfmarker} a new filter because when I designed other filters with shorter delay from the LDA filters , {vocalsound} there was one filter with fif sixtymillisecond delay and the other with ten millisecondsProfessor A: Right .PhD E: and {vocalsound} uh Hynek suggested that both could have sixty - five sixty - s I think it 's sixty - five .Professor A: Yeah .PhD E: Yeah .Both should have sixty - five because {disfmarker}Professor A: You didn't gain anything , right ?PhD E: Yeah . And . So I did that and uh it 's running . So , {vocalsound} let 's see what will happen . Uh but the filter isof course closer to the reference filter .Professor A: Mm - hmm .PhD E: Mmm . Um . Yeah . I think {disfmarker}Professor A: So that means logically , in principle , it should be better . So probably it 'll be worse .PhD E:YeahProfessor A: Or in the basic perverse nature uh of reality . Yeah . OK .PhD E: Yeah . Sure .Grad C: Yeah .Professor A: OK .PhD E: Yeah , and then we 've started to work with this of um voiced - unvoiced stuff.Professor A: Mm - hmm .PhD E: And next week I think we will {vocalsound} perhaps try to have um a new system with uh uh MSG stream also see what {disfmarker} what happens . So , something that 's similar tothe proposal too , but with MSG stream .Professor A: Mm - hmm . Mm - hmm .PhD E: Mmm .Professor A: OK .PhD D: No , I w {vocalsound} I begin to play {vocalsound} with Matlab and to found some parameterrobust for voiced - unvoiced decision . But only to play . And we {disfmarker} {vocalsound} they {disfmarker} we found that maybe w is a classical parameter , the {vocalsound} sq the variance {vocalsound} betweenthe um FFT of the signal and the small spectrum of time {vocalsound} we {disfmarker} after the um mel filter bank .Professor A: Uh - huh .PhD D: And , well , is more or less robust . Is good for clean speech . Is quitegood {vocalsound} for noisy speech .Professor A: Huh ? Mm - hmm .PhD D: but um we must to have bigger statistic with TIMIT ,Professor A: Mm - hmm .PhD D: and is not ready yet to use on ,Professor A: Yeah .PhDD: well , I don't know .Professor A: Yeah .PhD E: Yeah . So , basically we wa want to look at something like the ex the ex excitation signal and {disfmarker}Professor A: Right .PhD D: Mm - hmm .PhD E: which are thevariance of it and {disfmarker}PhD D: I have here . I have here for one signal , for one frame .PhD E: Mmm .Professor A: Yeah . Uh - huh .PhD D: The {disfmarker} the mix of the two , noise and unnoise , and the


User Interface: {vocalsound} {vocalsound}Marketing: {vocalsound}User Interface: Mm uh .Marketing: {vocalsound} {gap} We're the first .User Interface: Mm . We're the first ones . {vocalsound}Marketing:Marketing Expert , yes .Project Manager: Mm .Marketing: {vocalsound}Project Manager: So you found your spots .Marketing: Yes .User Interface: {vocalsound} Move to the meeting room . {vocalsound}Marketing:Bling bling . {vocalsound} Yeah .User Interface: Okay .Marketing: Right . {vocalsound}Project Manager: Okay .Marketing: Uh {vocalsound} where has my screen gone ?Industrial Designer: Hi .User Interface: Hello ,good day . {vocalsound}Marketing: {vocalsound}Industrial Designer: Oh yeah , we have to talk in English ,Marketing: Hmm .Industrial Designer: huh .User Interface: Yep .Marketing: Yeah . My screen is gone .ProjectManager: It's called black . {vocalsound}Marketing: {vocalsound} Oh .User Interface: Kick-off meeting , wow . It's uh looks uh nice .Industrial Designer: I'm afraid I'm a bit slow for this stuff uh .Project Manager:{vocalsound} Okay .User Interface: Hmm ?Marketing: {vocalsound}Industrial Designer: I'm afraid I'm a bit too slow . {vocalsound} I don't know how much preparation you guys did ,User Interface: Yeah .IndustrialDesigner: but not a lot .Marketing: Yeah .User Interface: No , it's {disfmarker} it was uh not enough .Project Manager: You see this beautiful presentation .Marketing: Yeah . Very nice .Project Manager: Okay let's getstarted .Marketing: Yeah .Project Manager: Uh I sort of prepared this .User Interface: {vocalsound}Project Manager: Uh opening acquaintance , tool training , uh how to use the things here . Uh project plan discussion ,and yeah then the rest of the meeting .Marketing: Mm .Industrial Designer: Mm-hmm .Project Manager: Um we're supposed to develop a new remote control , that's both original , trendy and user-friendly . So,Marketing: {vocalsound} {vocalsound}Project Manager: hope you have good ideas . I don't . {vocalsound}User Interface: {vocalsound} I did my best .Project Manager: Um we're work we're working uh from top tobottom . Uh functional design ,Industrial Designer: Not yet .Project Manager: then we do some in individual work , then we have a meeting to discuss the results , etcetera etcetera . And at the end of the day we shouldhave a prototype drawn up . Uh we have available the smart board and the whiteboard . Um uh we should take some practice . I have some instructions now to do that .Marketing: Yeah .Project Manager: Uh well youknow how to {disfmarker} the documents work . So {disfmarker} Uh this for toolbar . You see it next . Um we have a pen . And we can use this pen to perform . {vocalsound}User Interface: {vocalsound}Marketing:{vocalsound}Project Manager: Yes .Industrial Designer: Operations .Project Manager: So {disfmarker}User Interface: {vocalsound}Project Manager: It doesn't always work . Yes .Marketing: Yeah .Project Manager:Okay so you can draw .Marketing: Draw . Alright .Project Manager: Okay and in the format menu you can select colour and line width , etcetera etcetera . Okay ?Marketing: 'Kay .Project Manager: Uh {disfmarker} Okay. Each of you can uh take some practice and you should draw an animal . Uh you should explain {disfmarker} Uh with different colours and with different pen widths .User Interface: {vocalsound}Industrial Designer:{vocalsound}Project Manager: And you should explain why you draw that particular animal .User Interface: {vocalsound} Okay .Marketing: {vocalsound} Don't take up too much space . {vocalsound}Project Manager:So , Julian .User Interface: Um yeah .Industrial Designer: Different pen widths , how do you do that ?User Interface: {vocalsound}Project Manager: Uh with the format menu .Industrial Designer: Oh okay .ProjectManager: And use different colours etcetera .User Interface: {vocalsound} It's a giraffe . Yeah .Project Manager: And {vocalsound} what's that supposed to be ? {vocalsound}Industrial Designer: Are you serious?Marketing: {vocalsound} Should it be one {disfmarker}Project Manager: Oh yeah . {vocalsound} Oh yeahUser Interface: {vocalsound} Okay .Project Manager: four legs . Uh-huh . {vocalsound}Marketing: Giraffe'syellow . {vocalsound}User Interface: Uh it needs some uh some yellow uh {disfmarker} Oh format .Marketing: Can you use one blank sheet per drawing ? OrProject Manager: Yeah .Marketing: so y you must save it atthe endProject Manager: YeahMarketing: and then {disfmarker}Project Manager: you can press the next button , which is uh {disfmarker} yeah . I'll show you .User Interface: That's some spots .Industrial Designer: Iin the file option menu .Project Manager: Yeah . In file menu .Marketing: Okay ,User Interface: No .Marketing: then m make a new one .User Interface: {vocalsound}Industrial Designer: How much time do we have todraw anyway ? {vocalsound}Project Manager: {vocalsound} Yeah .User Interface: {vocalsound}Industrial Designer: 'Cause I can take forever on this .Project Manager: {gap}User Interface: Okay . Do I have to explainuh why I chose this uh this animal ?Project Manager: Yeah . {vocalsound}User Interface: I think it's a it's a great animal .Project Manager: What is it ? {vocalsound}Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}Marketing:{vocalsound}User Interface: {vocalsound} It's a it's a giraffe .Project Manager: A giraffe okay . Yeah I see a long neckUser Interface: Yeah , that's a {disfmarker}Project Manager: but {disfmarker}{vocalsound}Marketing: It's more like a dinosaur . {vocalsound}User Interface: {vocalsound} Um {disfmarker} Okay I'll will give it an uh an eye .Project Manager: Okay . That's nice of you .Marketing: {vocalsound}Uh .User Interface: Hey . Come on .Marketing: Some leaf to eat . {vocalsound}User Interface: {gap} {vocalsound}Project Manager: Okay . Yeah pretty good . Uh could you press the next uh {disfmarker}UserInterface: The next ? Yes .Project Manager: Okay . Then uh {disfmarker} {gap} .User Interface: Here you go . {vocalsound}Marketing: Yeah . Thanks .User Interface: Hmm .Marketing: Yeah .User Interface:{vocalsound}Industrial Designer: Is this part of our a acquai or introduction to each other ?Project Manager: Yeah sorry , introduction and get acquaintedMarketing: {vocalsound} Uh {disfmarker}Project Manager: and{disfmarker}Industrial Designer: Alright .Project Manager: That's the idea , so {disfmarker}Industrial Designer: Uh . Your line broke .Marketing: {vocalsound} Yeah . Alright .User Interface: {vocalsound}ProjectManager: Yeah it's a bit slow ,Marketing: It's not that fast .Project Manager: so {disfmarker}Marketing: Yeah .Project Manager: Yeah . {vocalsound}Marketing: {vocalsound} I see . It misses the spot .Project Manager:{gap} pressure .Industrial Designer: I'm guessing a turtle . No . {vocalsound} I'm kidding .Marketing: {vocalsound} I say good guess . Uh {disfmarker}Project Manager: Why a turtle ?Industrial Designer: Because ofits shell .Marketing: Because it's slow . {vocalsound}Project Manager: {vocalsound} It's slow .User Interface: 'Cause it's soProject Manager: You were slow tooUser Interface: 'cause it's green . {vocalsound}ProjectManager: so {disfmarker}Marketing: Yeah I was a bit slow too .Industrial Designer: Dude you're a good drawer .Marketing: So {disfmarker} {vocalsound} Uh some other line uh width uh {disfmarker}IndustrialDesigner: Do you have a turtle pet ?Project Manager: {vocalsound}User Interface: {vocalsound}Marketing: {vocalsound} No . {vocalsound}Industrial Designer: Uh okay .Marketing: I dunno . {vocalsound} Does ithave legs ? {vocalsound}Industrial Designer: Yeah yeah yeah .Project Manager: Yeah sure .Marketing: Yeah ?Project Manager: Yeah not exactly legs but {disfmarker} More like finsMarketing: {vocalsound}IndustrialDesigner: Stumpy stuff .Project Manager: or {disfmarker}Marketing: It's more like a tank . Yeah that's finsIndustrial Designer: They kind of l look like mole legs . With sharp nails on .Marketing: but I don't know where. {vocalsound}Project Manager: Yeah .Marketing: Some spots . Ah some eye .Project Manager: {vocalsound} YeahMarketing: {vocalsound}Project Manager: it's l looks very friendly . {vocalsound}Marketing: Yeahthat's a fr {vocalsound} friendly turtle I guess .Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}Marketing: Yeah well I think it's uh fair enough .Project Manager: Yeah okay .Industrial Designer: A little tail maybe .Project Manager:{vocalsound} {gap} {vocalsound}User Interface: {vocalsound}Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}Marketing: Right . {vocalsound} I don't know what the position is . {vocalsound} Does it have ears ?IndustrialDesigner: Uh no .Project Manager: No .User Interface: No .Marketing: No . Oh okay .Industrial Designer: The little holes maybe .Marketing: Can you erase earsProject Manager: Yeah yeah yeah .User Interface:{vocalsound}Marketing: or {disfmarker}Project Manager: There's a a gum ,Marketing: Yeah ? Alright .Project Manager: gum to {gap} .Marketing: Eraser .Industrial Designer: And why did you choose this animal?Marketing: So {disfmarker}Project Manager: He said it was slow .Marketing: I dunno . I it just came into my mind . So there's no particular reasonIndustrial Designer: Alright .Marketing: I {gap} pen .Project Manager:{vocalsound} I like it . {vocalsound}Marketing: Yeah . Well I'm {disfmarker} guess I'm done .Project Manager: Okay . {gap}Marketing: That's my turtle .Project Manager: Your turn Niels .Industrial Designer: Alright.Marketing: How to select the next or {disfmarker}Project Manager: The nextMarketing: here .Project Manager: yeah .Industrial Designer: {gap} Colours were under formatMarketing: {vocalsound} Yeah .ProjectManager: Makes new paper .Marketing: Here you go .Project Manager: Yeah .Industrial Designer: right ? Let's see .Project Manager: Orange .Industrial Designer: How am I gonna do this ? Um {disfmarker} Mm uh.User Interface: A rabbit I think .Project Manager: Kangaroo .User Interface: Kangaroo . {vocalsound}Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Not quite actually .User Interface: Fox .Marketing: A fox yeah .Project Manager:Dog .Marketing: Firefox .User Interface: {vocalsound}Industrial Designer: No .Project Manager: Cat .Industrial Designer: Aye . {vocalsound} It's a cat .Project Manager: It's a cat .User Interface: Mm .IndustrialDesigner: Not quite yet through .Marketing: A cat who had an accident or {disfmarker} {vocalsound}Project Manager: Why a cat ?Industrial Designer: Uh yeah I dunno . They're my favourite pets .Project Manager: Youhave some uh ?Industrial Designer: Uh I have colour already . Yeah I'm not so good at drawing with this kind ofProject Manager: {vocalsound} The pen ,Industrial Designer: st Oh shit . Um {disfmarker}ProjectManager: yeah .Industrial Designer: Excuse my language .User Interface: {vocalsound}Marketing: {vocalsound}Project Manager: Sure . {vocalsound}Industrial Designer: I don't know how to draw its face . But you getthe idea .Project Manager: Yeah . {vocalsound} Alright .Industrial Designer: It's a cat . It's my favourite uh pet animal , 'cause they're cute , they're independent and cuddly , I dunno . {vocalsound}Project Manager:Okay .Industrial Designer: That's it .Project Manager: Yeah .Industrial Designer: Or do I need to use more colours and {disfmarker}Project Manager: {gap} I think it's okay . You get ideaIndustrial Designer: Alright.Project Manager: right ?Industrial Designer: Yeah .Project Manager: Okay umIndustrial Designer: {vocalsound}Project Manager: we have a financial aspect to this project . {vocalsound} Um we can sell them at twentyfive Euros . Uh the aim is to reach {disfmarker} uh uh to sell as much as fifty million Euros . Uh that's quite a big amount of money . And the production cost should be the half of the selling price . OkayIndustrialDesigner: So we have to sProject Manager: now it's time for some discussion . {vocalsound} {vocalsound} {gap}User Interface: Okay .Project Manager: Uh {disfmarker}User Interface: What uh what uh do you wantto discuss ? {vocalsound}Project Manager: {vocalsound} Yeah .Industrial Designer: Yeah . {vocalsound}Project Manager: We should get started .User Interface: Yep .Marketing: Yeah .Project Manager: Uh I'm takingnotes . UmMarketing: Okay . Great .Project Manager: we each have a specific task , as I saw in my mail . I didn't know if you received the same mail .Industrial Designer: Mm-hmm .Marketing: Yeah .Project Manager:Yeah ?Industrial Designer: I guess so . Yeah .Marketing: Yeah .Project Manager: Okay so the um {vocalsound} uh {gap} this industrati Industrial Designer should produce a working design . Am I correct ?IndustrialDesigner: True .Project Manager: Okay . Uh the User Interface Designer should specify the technical functions . Right ? Yeah ?User Interface: Yep .Project Manager: {vocalsound} And the Marketing uh Expert shouldcome up with user requirements .Marketing: Yeah .Project Manager: Uh did any of you already do some work on this part or {disfmarker}Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Well I started making an overview for myself, um what I had to do , 'cause we have three design steps and in every step I have a s specific task to perform or whatever .Project Manager: Mm-hmm . Mm-hmm .Industrial Designer: So I had to uh , {vocalsound} Idunno , make an overview for myself about what I have to do ,Project Manager: Mm-hmm .Industrial Designer: and kind of let it work in to get ideas about well how I have to fill it .Project Manager: Mm-hmm . And doyou have any ideas about the product uh so far ?Industrial Designer: Well I started I started with the first phase , I think was the functional .Project Manager: Mm-hmm .Industrial Designer: And uh let's see I had tofocus on the working design , which you said .Project Manager: Mm-hmm .Industrial Designer: How does the apparatus work ? And well I basically had two points . Uh {vocalsound} according to the coffee uh machineexample , I have batteries to supply energy ,Project Manager: {vocalsound} Yeah .Marketing: Yeah .Industrial Designer: and we ye use button presses to activate or deactivate certain functions on the T_V_ .ProjectManager: Mm-hmm . {vocalsound} Okay .Industrial Designer: And that's basically all I have so far .Project Manager: Yeah I got another point . It uses infrared light to communicate the signal to the T_V_ apparatus orstereo .User Interface: Yeah . Wireless uh {disfmarker} huh .Marketing: Yeah .Industrial Designer: Alright .Marketing: Yeah .Industrial Designer: Yeah .Marketing: So that's very common .User Interface: Uh it's uhsome buttons for for the on off function . You d you already told that . And for the changing up to the {disfmarker} to all the channels and changing the volume . That are the the basic options for a remote control.Industrial Designer: Yeah . Yeah I kept it global 'cause {vocalsound} {disfmarker} that it activates or deactivates specific functions ,User Interface: Okay , yeah .Industrial Designer: 'cause I wasn't thinking yet aboutthat . I mean , you wanna ch ch flip the channelUser Interface: Yeah .Industrial Designer: but you might wanna use teletext also .User Interface: Yep .Marketing: Yeah .Industrial Designer: I dunno what the word is inEnglish . Uh {gap} {disfmarker}Project Manager: Same I believe {gap} .Marketing: Yeah . {vocalsound}Project Manager: Uh and what did the Marketing Expert do ?Marketing: Uh well from a marketing uh{vocalsound} perspective , um well the function des design phase uh consists out of the user requirements .Project Manager: Mm-hmm .Marketing: Um what needs and desires are to be fulfilled ? So there are a fewmeans to reach that um by by doing research {vocalsound} uh to see what existing products are there out in the market .Project Manager: Mm-hmm .Marketing: I mean , what functions do they have .Project Manager:Mm .Marketing: Um especially what are their shortcomings ? Are there any new functions uh which can be added to our product ?Project Manager: Mm-hmm . Mm-hmm .Marketing: Um therefore we have to to do someinternet search . For example for um well what kind of applications do current remote controls support , and what are f featur features of uh current and future televisions ?Project Manager: Yep . Yes .Marketing: So wecan see uh what needs to be supported . Um {vocalsound} and we can interview current users and future users . What w what would they like to see uh on a new remote control ? Um especially for future users ,ProjectManager: Okay . Okay .Marketing: uh I'm thinking of early adopters , because they they use new technology first ,Project Manager: Mm-hmm .Marketing: and they play with a lot of tools and stuff so maybe they havesome good ideas to uh to add .Project Manager: Okay . And you can get that information ?Marketing: I think I can get that information , yeah .Project Manager: Okay . That would be very handy .Marketing: So{disfmarker} yeah .Project Manager: Um but have you any idea so far as what uh the user requirements are ?Marketing: No n not specifically .Project Manager: No ?Marketing: More to how to get themProject Manager:No okay .User Interface: {vocalsound} I got some uh requirementsMarketing: and {disfmarker}Project Manager: Yeah ?User Interface: it has uh {gap} it has to be user-friendly .Marketing: Yeah ?Project Manager:{vocalsound} Of course .Industrial Designer: Yeah . Obviously .Marketing: Yeah .User Interface: {vocalsound} {vocalsound} Uh really easy to use buttons , not not uh very small buttons , but not the the also the bigbig buttons , but just normal buttons . It has to be a small unit . It has to be uh {disfmarker} yeah , you can take it with you uh everywhere in in your house . So it has n has not to be l yeah , gigantic uh machine.Project Manager: Big , mm-hmm .Marketing: Yeah .User Interface: Uh and a and a good uh zapping range . {vocalsound}Project Manager: {vocalsound} Uh what do you mean by that ?User Interface: Uh the distanceuh from your television to your uh remote control has to be , uh yeah um yeah , quite a big distance .Marketing: Yeah .User Interface: It has to be capable for zapping uh {disfmarker}Marketing: Yeah . From the otherend of the room or something ?User Interface: Yeah .Marketing: Yeah .Project Manager: Okay um {disfmarker} Well I don't think I have anything more to add at the moment . Um I think the best is to go to work.Industrial Designer: Whoa . Is that youProject Manager: Yeah .Industrial Designer: or {disfmarker} alright .Project Manager: Okay .Marketing: Any more points to discuss ?Project Manager: Yeah . I think we can goahead with what we have . I will summarise the things we discussed and put it in the project folder . Uh the use of the Industrial Designer can work on the working design , etcetera etcetera . And it seems you get moreinformation by email . So {vocalsound}Marketing: Alright .Industrial Designer: Alright .Project Manager: that was it for me .User Interface: Okay .Marketing: 'Kay . Thanks .Project Manager: Uh {disfmarker}UserInterface: Are you going to put the the notes on the {disfmarker}Project Manager: Yeah , in the project folder . Yeah .Marketing: Yeah . The pro okay .User Interface: Okay . {vocalsound}Project Manager: I'm writingvery fast . {vocalsound}Industrial Designer: Alright .User Interface: Yeah . {vocalsound}Marketing: Yeah . Okay .Project Manager: Hope it's readable .User Interface: Yep .Marketing: Uh .Project Manager: Okay{vocalsound} um anything more you want to add to the discussion ?Marketing: I guess so .Industrial Designer: Well no I'm just a bit wondering what we're gonna do the next uh session ?User Interface: Yeah . Do weonly have to to do uh phase one , the functional design uh ?Project Manager: Yeah . Because then we have a {disfmarker}User Interface: After that we are going to the conceptual uh {disfmarker}Project Manager:Yeah . {vocalsound}Marketing: Yeah .Project Manager: Y you do some individual work ,Marketing: We're just working the three phases .Project Manager: we have meeting , individual work , meeting . And at the end ofthe day we have a final meeting . And then I have to prepare {disfmarker} uh I have to defend our design ,User Interface: {vocalsound}Project Manager: so make it good . {vocalsound}Industrial Designer: Yeah okay .We'll do our best .Marketing: Okay .Project Manager: I depend on you .User Interface: Okay .Marketing: {vocalsound} Better make it {disfmarker} {vocalsound}Industrial Designer: I am gonna work on the conceptualdesign already 'cause yeah it's fairly important to know what kind of components we want to put in .Project Manager: Yeah ? If you can mix it it's okay . Mm-hmm . Yeah .Industrial Designer: Do we {disfmarker} Imean , is it gonna be a multimedia control centre ? Do we want to be able to use the video recorder with it ? {vocalsound}Marketing: Yeah . {vocalsound} That is my question alsoProject Manager: Yeah .Marketing:


Lynne Neagle AM: Good morning, everyone. Welcome to the Children, Young People and Education Committee. We've received no apologies, although Dawn Bowden is running late. I'll take this opportunity to welcomeDawn formally to the committee but also to place on record our thanks to John Griffiths for his service to the committee. Are there any declarations of interest, please? No. Okay. Item 2, then, this morning is a scrutinysession with a focus on higher and further education. I'm very pleased to welcome Kirsty Williams, Cabinet Secretary for Education, Eluned Morgan, Minister for Welsh Language and Lifelong Learning, and Huw Morris,who is the group director of skills, higher education and lifelong learning. Thank you all for your attendance this morning. If you're okay with it, we'll go straight into questions. The first questions are from SuzyDavies.Suzy Davies AM: Thank you, Chair. If we can just start with teacher training and teacher training for secondary school teachers in particular, obviously there's been what looks like a trend in recent years in fillingthe places for secondary school training. Obviously, this is at Welsh teacher training centres. Do you think there's still a problem recruiting teachers into the 300 priority places, or is there a trend where things aregetting better?Kirsty Williams AM: Thank you, Suzy. I think, for this year's intake, although we're in touch with our providers, we're not in a position to be able to give figures for this year's intake for a couple of months.But what we have seen over recent years is that we are only recruiting to about 65 per cent of those targets. So, there is still a job of work to do to understand and to respond to those needs. So, what we're doing isfirst of all making sure that our ITE provision is world class, so that, actually, Welsh centres are the place to go to train to be a teacher. You'll be aware that we've recently been through an accreditation process for newITE provision that will start in the next academic year. We have looked at financial incentives. It's not the whole answer, I think, to these issues, but it's part of a mixture of things that we need to do. You'll be awarethat, for priority subjects, with graduates with the very highest levels of qualifications, those financial incentives are now £20,000 a year. We're also embarking on our first ever national ITE recruitment marketingexercise. We have initially done some work in the last year specifically targeting Welsh students in studying for priority subject degrees, e-mailing them, sending them materials to ask them to consider (1) becoming ateacher, and (2) crucially coming to do that training here in Wales. We are now part of a full national programme of ITE recruitment, giving people that idea that you can serve your nation and your community bytraining to be a teacher. So, there's a whole package of things we need to do. In January of this year I set up an advisory board on the recruitment and retention of teaching staff, and we are awaiting some reports fromthat advisory group on what they feel that we should do next.Suzy Davies AM: Thank you for that answer. I can see there's a lot of activity, but what exactly is it responding to? Presumably, some research has beendone about why people don't want to become teachers so that the answers you come up with are appropriate answers. I can't believe it's just about ITE, although this is very valuable, what you're talking about. Is theresomething that's running through our younger learners at the moment that makes them think that teaching isn't a profession they want to go into? Is that something that's happening just in Wales or is it happeningelsewhere as well?Kirsty Williams AM: No. I think what you will find is that this isn't a uniquely Welsh issue. I think they are suffering quite acute problems across the border, which proves to me that money isn'tnecessarily the entire answer, because, despite higher financial incentives to join ITE courses, they're not able to do that in England either. So, that proves to me—what the research does show—that it's not moneyalone that will get people onto these courses. Interestingly, I don't even think it's a UK problem. Recently, as you'll be aware via my written statement, I attended the Atlantic Rim Collaboratory, which is asystem-to-system conference. If you talk to education systems in different parts of the world, the one common factor that we are all grappling with is teacher recruitment and retention. In the USA, they have seen a 40per cent drop in the number of students training to be teachers. So, in the Californian system, significant teacher shortages, and in Oregon, Washington. I met with New York state—significant teacher recruitment andretention problems in New York state, and in Finland, Australia. So, this is a common issue across the globe, really. That's why we set up the advisory group under the chairmanship of Professor John Gardner—it's tounderstand what the issues are exactly that are preventing people or putting people off. One of the things that we have got strong performance in, and I think this is perhaps something that we're trying to follow up on,are employment-based routes into qualified teacher status—so, those are people who are training on the job. Those remain strong. There's high demand for those places, so much so that we've increased those places to90 last year and 90 again this year, which says to me that—there's definitely a place for the traditional, 'Take a year off, do a postgraduate certificate in education in a university for a year'—actually, that type of coursesuits some students but it might be preventing other people from pursuing a qualification in teaching, which is why, of course, from next year, we will have our unique part-time PGCE route into qualification. So, thatallows people to perhaps combine some of their employment opportunities, so they can earn while they learn, or maybe they've got caring responsibilities that prevent them from going to do a full-time course. I thinkthat will give us an alternative route that people can take to gain qualified teacher status and work in our schools. So, there's no one thing, I think, that we can do that will solve this issue. But it is an international issue,I agree with that.Suzy Davies AM: Okay. Well, that's what I was after finding out, and, actually, what you've just said about the part-time PGCE is pretty interesting as well, because if you can bring your outside worldexperience into teaching, that's got to help, hasn't it?Kirsty Williams AM: Can I just agree with you? I think that is really, really important—that we have a diversity in our teaching workforce. I think the differentdynamic that brings to a school and the experience that brings to children is really, really valuable. I was up in the Deeside Sixth just last week, talking to the A-level chemistry teacher. She had been a teacher for awhile, she'd gone into industry, worked in industry, and now had come back into teaching. She said that she felt that that made her a better educator and she could talk with knowledge and experience about theopportunities outside of teaching that the students in front of her could pursue. I'm very keen to increase the diversity in our teaching workforce and I'm very keen in looking at career changers, who perhaps havedifferent life experience and work experience, coming into our teaching profession.Suzy Davies AM: Thank you for that. Part of that diversity, of course—it would be great if you had more people interested in qualifyingto teach through the medium of Welsh. Great aspirations; the trend's going the other way. No-one can solve this in 280 characters, I get that, but can you give us some indication about why you think this is proving stillsuch an unattractive option when it's clear that there's a policy for this country to improve the number of Welsh speakers? You'd have thought there'd be a pretty good carrot for this.Kirsty Williams AM: Sure. Again,data for recruitment for the 2018-19 cohort is not yet available and we are, as I said, keeping in touch with our ITE centres to keep a close eye on them. I think an important thing to recognise is that there is adifference between the number of people who are on courses where there is a specific designation that enables them to teach through the medium of Welsh and those people who have linguistic ability and Welsh abilitybut don't necessarily do a course that allows them. So, there is a difference. We do think that, for the 2016-17 cohort, there were an additional 130 qualifiers that, actually, were fluent in Welsh and who could havegone on to teach in Welsh-medium schools, didn't necessarily do a course that gave them that designation. But, clearly, we've got three academic years now to get to the targets that we've set ourselves. The evaluationof Welsh-medium provision in ITE reported at the end of last month, and the Minister and officials are busy working now to implement the recommendations of the report that was published, I think, on 28 September,to be able to move this agenda forward. Again, we've got new incentives, this year, both for people starting their course and then for teachers who complete their QTS after a year. So, we've added in new financialincentives this year to try and address some of those issues. But, clearly, these are ambitious targets and we will need to have a step change over the next three years if we're to meet them.Suzy Davies AM: Thank youfor that, Cabinet Secretary. Thank you for that answer. We're now talking about cohorts of students coming into PGCE and teaching degrees. If they're from Wales, they will have had Welsh as part of their educationfrom day one, and we'll accept there are varying qualities in different parts of Wales, different attitudes towards it as well. But there isn't a single a person now who's been through Welsh education who can say theyhave no Welsh at all, unless they've moved into the system from, say, England very, very recently. What is being done within the teaching qualifications, including the degrees, to ensure that, at least in Welshuniversities, those nascent Welsh language skills are at least kept alive, even though we're not talking necessarily about being at a level where people can teach through the medium? It's the age-old question: once theschool gate closes, is that the end of their Welsh use? So, is there something—it won't be Donaldson, but in the teacher training qualifications—that is keeping this going and, hopefully, increasing the usability of theWelsh skills they have?Kirsty Williams AM: Well, in terms of how we can encourage children who have got Welsh skills as a result of their education up to 16, how they can continue to use those skills and, potentially,use them in the workplace, I'm sure Eluned will want to talk about some of the work, for instance, in other, non-teaching sectors. But, with regard to ITE, you'll be aware that, in the evaluation report, as I said, that waspublished, the report comes forward with two options in how we could develop an intervention programme to support Welsh language skills amongst all primary and secondary ITE entrants. So, what we'll be doing nowas a result of that report is that we'll be working very closely with our ITE centres to develop and agree upon minimum provision that constitutes those skill levels within ITE provision for all teachers.Suzy Davies AM:Thank you.Lynne Neagle AM: Llyr.Llyr Gruffydd AM: You have your targets for 2021, in terms of numbers of teachers coming through the system, which is positive, although, clearly, the report or the review itself saidthat, actually, we need to double the numbers, really. But it's not just the trends that are going down; it's a cataclysmic drop, really. We've lost 24 per cent in the number of people over the last four or five years whoare going into teacher training to study subjects that they could teach through the medium of Welsh. So, it's a huge turnaround that we're looking for, and I'm not getting the feeling that the level of ambition and theanswers that you're giving here this morning reflect the level of action that's needed, really.Kirsty Williams AM: Well, first of all, as I tried to illustrate to Suzy, the figures on their own tell one story, but there areadditional people in the system with an ability to speak Welsh and to be able to use—Llyr Gruffydd AM: I think it's 40 per cent of those who are currently in the system who don't—Kirsty Williams AM: —the language andskills. And if we look at qualifiers of ITE courses in Wales by degree type, actually, we see a different trend—we see numbers going up. So, there are statistics and there are statistics. Depending on which ones you lookat, it's quite a complex picture. And that's why we had the evaluation report. We understand and we know and acknowledge that there is more work to be done. That's why we have got the evaluation of provision inITE and that's why we'll be taking that ambition forward. We know what we need to do. As I said, we're not sitting back and hoping that something miraculous will change things. We are pulling levers and putting inplace plans to improve that situation.Llyr Gruffydd AM: Thank you for that. Clearly, there are statistics and there are statistics, so could you just explain to us which statistics you've used for your targets for growth overthe next three years?Kirsty Williams AM: Well, that comes as a result of the work done for the 2050—Llyr Gruffydd AM: Upon which baseline are you basing the increases that you're projecting?Kirsty Williams AM: We'reusing the baseline of 2012-13. There has been a decline since then.Llyr Gruffydd AM: That's the one I was using when I said '24 per cent reduction'.Kirsty Williams AM: There has been a decline in those numbers. That'swhy, as I said, we're doing the work that we need to do to reverse that decline. In using those numbers, we also know that there are additional people in the system who are not captured in those figures and who dohave the linguistic ability to use their language positively in school settings. So, what I'm saying is that that doesn't tell us the whole story, but I will be the first to admit that there is a significant job of work with ourITE providers to ensure that we will have the skilled professionals that we need to deliver on our ambitions, and I'm not hiding from that.Eluned Morgan AM: Also, I just think it's worth saying that a lot of this is aboutbuilding the confidence of those people who actually can speak Welsh, who are not teaching through the medium of Welsh, and to give them that support. First of all, we need to identify who these people are, so thereis a job of work being undertaken now in terms of registration in particular—when people register, let's just make sure that we collect that kind of data.Kirsty Williams AM: We don't even do that consistently at themoment. One of the recommendations of the report is that there is no consistent approach to understanding this baseline data and there's no consistent competency test that people start at the beginning of theircourse, so we need a national approach rather than leaving it to individual institutions.Llyr Gruffydd AM: Have we missed any tricks, potentially, in terms of the reforms to accrediting ITE, for example, in terms of,maybe, strengthening aspects around the Welsh language and provision in that respect?Kirsty Williams AM: No, I don't believe so. The accreditation process, which is independent of the Government—the accreditationprocess demands of our ITE providers that their provision will be able to meet the goals of our curriculum. Our curriculum is very clear about the equality of the language and the ability of our children, through all stagesof their education journey, to be able to be bilingual children.Llyr Gruffydd AM: So, that requirement, as far you're concerned, is there.Kirsty Williams AM: Yes.Llyr Gruffydd AM: Yes, okay. Diolch—thank you.LynneNeagle AM: Before I turn to Hefin, can I just clarify—? In answer to Suzy Davies, you said that 65 per cent of the places in Welsh training centres had been filled. Is that 65 per cent of the priority places?Kirsty WilliamsAM: Priority places.Lynne Neagle AM: Okay, thank you very much.Kirsty Williams AM: Sixty-five per cent of the priority courses are being met.Lynne Neagle AM: Lovely, thank you for clarifying that. Hefin.Hefin DavidAM: The decision by the Education Workforce Council not to accredit the University of South Wales with the ability to deliver teacher training—what are your views and concerns about that?Kirsty Williams AM: Theprocess is independent of Government, and it would not be appropriate for me to comment on that, especially as I understand that there is an appeals process that may be being undertaken. What I would say is thatfrom the very outset of our ITE reforms we have made it very clear that I expect very high standards in our ITE system, but the process is independent of this Government. I have confidence in the people who havebeen appointed by the EWC to undertake that process, but it is independent of me, and it's not appropriate for me to comment on that further.Hefin David AM: I fully understand that and the need for distance for theEWC, but there'll be an impact on students and staff. Students, first of all: are you concerned that the reduction in providers might have an impact on students, and those students going through the second year atUSW? Would you have concerns about that issue?Kirsty Williams AM: In terms of the overall numbers, we will be looking to commission from those institutions that have been accredited the number of training placesthat our planning tool says that we need. So, in terms of an overall number of places, we will commission from those accredited units. Clearly, there will be a responsibility upon the University of South Wales to ensurethat those students already in the system are able to complete their studies and their course, with the appropriate level of support and tuition to enable them to achieve their career aspirations and to graduate from thatprogramme.Hefin David AM: And what about the uncertainty for staff, or would you say that's an issue for the university itself?Kirsty Williams AM: These are autonomous bodies. They have to act accordingly, incompliance with any employment law or any statutory responsibilities that they would have as an employer. That's not a matter for me; that is a matter for the institution that is an autonomous body.Hefin David AM:But I would be surprised if you weren't keeping an eye on this, given that it has been a key provider. Are you aware of when the appeal decision will be known?Kirsty Williams AM: My understanding is that the appealsprocess is ongoing, and next month, perhaps. But as I said, this is a process that is independent of Government—Hefin David AM: But it will have an impact for what you do.Kirsty Williams AM: It will potentially changethe nature of the people from whom we commission places, but as I said, I do not have any concerns that we will not be in a position to commission the appropriate number of training places that we will need as aresult of our planning.Lynne Neagle AM: Okay, thank you. Suzy on this—mindful of what the Minister said about it being an independent decision.Suzy Davies AM: It's not directly about USW; it's about the geographicspread of provision. I wonder if you could just give us a snapshot of what that looks like, and whether you think—certainly for PGCE or postgrad courses, anyway—that if they're not accessible geographically and we'vegot students who already have three years' worth of debt, they're not going to be looking to, necessarily, live away from home for a fourth year, and may want to study nearer home. Has there been any research doneon the access to these postgrad courses, about where people are coming from and whether that's had an impact on the fact that some of these places haven't been filled?Kirsty Williams AM: Currently, with our currentproviders, there is a significant geographical spread. There are centres here in the south-east, there are centres in the south-west, in mid Wales, and in north Wales. Obviously, accessibility is an issue for us. We dothink that, for some students, accessibility is an issue, and of course that's why we are responding with our part-time PGCE route, which actually will be location neutral, because you will be able to study that as adistance learner, and so you will be able to remain in your community and undertake that course. So, that's part of the attractiveness, I believe, of offering that to people. So, if geographical disadvantage is stoppingsomebody from pursuing a career aspiration to qualify as a teacher, our new part-time PGCE, as I said, will allow them to do that.Suzy Davies AM: Okay. Thanks, Chair.Lynne Neagle AM: Okay, thank you. We're goingto move on now to talk about reform and reconfiguration of the post-16 education sector. Janet Finch-Saunders.Janet Finch-Saunders AM: Thank you. Good morning. There are some encouraging provisional signsregarding the demand for part-time undergraduate study for the first year of Diamond, but the £12.5 million reduction Higher Education Funding Council for Wales is having to make this academic year has potentially


Project Manager: {vocalsound} Good to see you all again . Let's see if that comes up . This is our functional design meeting . Um . Just a sec while my PowerPoint comes up . Et voila . Okay . Mm um we put the fashionin electronics . Let's start . Okay , our agenda today um {disfmarker} just check the time , it's twelve thirteen . Um . I'm gonna do an opening , talk about um {disfmarker} did you all get the minutes ? I e-mailed themto you . I'm also putting 'em {disfmarker} them in the shared folder .User Interface: Yep .Project Manager: So um then I {disfmarker} we'll talk about our general objectivesIndustrial Designer: Right .Project Manager:and have your three presentations . Um I'll talk about the new project requirements I've just received , and then we have to make a decision on our remote control functions . Finally we'll just close . We're starting thismeeting at approximately twelve thirteen and we have forty minutes . So {disfmarker} First of all the functional design objectives . Uh we need to keep in mind the user requirement specification , what needs anddesires are to be fulfilled , the {gap} functions design , what effects the apparatus should have , and the working design , how the apparatus actually works to fulfil its function . Okay , three presentations , um you cango in any order you choose um .Marketing: {gap} Mm shall we go in the order that you just did it ?Project Manager: Sure , please do .Marketing: I dunno . How do I hook my screen up ?Industrial Designer: I think , youmight have to disconnect Rose .Project Manager: Yes I do . Yeah .User Interface: Well there's a wee a wee plug just just that one thereMarketing: Where does it go ? Mm-hmm . Hmm , I'm not supposed to move this,User Interface: {vocalsound}Marketing: but {disfmarker}User Interface: Ah that's it , yep .Marketing: {gap}User Interface: And then you have to press function F_ eightProject Manager: Function , F_ eight , yeah.User Interface: I think it is on your laptop .Project Manager: The blue one , F_N_ .Marketing: Where's function ? No signal .Project Manager: Is it plugged in all the way and you screwed it in and {disfmarker}IndustrialDesigner: Yeah .Marketing: Ah , wait , 's screw in .Industrial Designer: I I think you just have to push it in really hard .Marketing: Push the screw .User Interface: That's it .Industrial Designer: Oh , got it .ProjectManager: Mm 'kay .Marketing: Mm alrightProject Manager: It's taking it a little bit {disfmarker}Marketing: I've never attached to anything .Industrial Designer: Mm , neither have I .Project Manager: 'Kay there you go.Marketing: Alright , so ,Industrial Designer: Alright .Marketing: I don't know if you guys are able to get access to um the report that was online or if I'm the only one who is . But , I don't even know how to play this .No .Project Manager: Press the little presentation . It's the um {disfmarker} it looks like a Y_ kind of {disfmarker} over there above Draw . There , that one , there you go .Marketing: Alright . So we're just gonna talk alittle bit about the functional requirements that people specified when they were asked . Um I guess Real Reaction did some market research . They had a hundred subjects and their usability lab and they watched themwatch T_V_ and recorded the frequency that they used particular buttons and the relevance that those buttons had . What they found was they analysed people's desires and needs . Focusing on their desires , umpeople specifically said that they thought remotes were ugly {vocalsound} , seventy five per cent of the a hundred subjects noted that and that they {disfmarker} more importantly though , eighty per cent said thatthey would be willing to pay more for a fancier looking remote . I don't know anything beyond what fancy means ,Industrial Designer: Hmm .Marketing: but that's particularly of use to us , I think . Um also they didsome questions on voice recognition and found that the desire for voice recognition was inversely related to age , so younger people were more inclined to want something with voice recognition , whereas the olderpeople in the like sixty and above segment or so did not really think that they would pay more money for voice recognitions .Industrial Designer: 'Kay .Marketing: Um people also had certain frustrations , that I thinkthat we could try to take into consideration with our design . That being people k um frustrated with losing their remotes . I think , over fifty percent of the people mentioned that that was their biggest frustration .People are also frustrated with the difficulty it is to learn how to use a remote and I think that ties back to what you were saying beforeIndustrial Designer: Hmm .Marketing: just that there's too many buttons , it justneeds to be easy to use . It also mentioned something called R_S_I_ and I was hoping someone might be able to inform me as to what R_S_I_ is ,User Interface: Repetitive strain injury .Marketing: because I don'tknow .Project Manager: {gap}User Interface: Repetitive strain injury .Marketing: What ? Ah . There we go .User Interface: So if you {disfmarker}Marketing: Wow . People do not like that . So I guess sort of the carpaltunnel type thing , people do not like that , um the repetitive use , I guess , caused a strain . Um looking at the needs people specified , the problem right now is that people's remotes are not matching their operatingbehaviour . People are only using ten per cent of the buttons that they have offered to them on their remote . And what people do most often is changing the channel and changing the volume . People also zap like tochange the channel , about um sixty five per cent during an hour of use . So we really just need to focus in on those volumes and channel changers rather than things like the audio settings , the screen settings and thechannel settings , because they're used much more infrequently and probably just complicate what's going on . So I think that some things that we might wanna think about , the idea of an L_C_D_ screen was broughtup although they didn't have any details on what people's preferences on that were , so I dunno know if that's coming to me later , or something like that . But something for us to consider also just the phenomenonthat less is more when it comes to the buttons on the remote or what we wanna make easiest to use , make sure that , you know , something like an audio setting isn't given as much importance and visibility on theremote as something like channel changing that's used a lot more often . And basically in order for us to win over to the consumer we just need to focus on what it looks like , that it has a fancy appeal and that it's notugly {vocalsound} and that it feels like the way they're gonna use it , so it doesn't give them any hand injuries or things like that .Industrial Designer: Hmm .Project Manager: Thank you very much . That was that wasgreat .Industrial Designer: Mm 'kay .Project Manager: Um {vocalsound} 's move on to the next presentation um on effects . Was that you ?Marketing: Hmm .Project Manager: Great .Marketing: Yeah , have I unscrewedit ?Project Manager: Push . User interface , right . Interface .Marketing: Here we go .User Interface: Cheers .Marketing: Mm-hmm . And I think that's in the shared , if I did it right , if anyone wants to look at it .ProjectManager: Mm 'kay , thank you .Industrial Designer: Okay , great .Marketing: {vocalsound}Project Manager: Okay .User Interface: Here we go . Right so I'm gonna talk about the technical technical functions design ofthe remote control um . We need to start by considering what a remote control actually is . It's a device that allows us to produce certain effects on our television , so i it's basically a communication device . We we tellthe remote control what we want to do , it sends a message to the television saying change the channel , change the volume , uh yeah , adjust these settings , adjust the brightness . Um how do we actually go aboutdesigning a new television remote control ? First thing to do is to come up with the design specifications . We need to know what our final product is gonna be like , so we need a a clear idea of exactly what this productdoes , uh how it works , and what the end-user is gonna want from this product . Um . Oh , a way I'd suggest that we could go about this is by designing uh several different prototypes of user interfaces for this product, um and then uh trying to get some feedback uh aboutMarketing: {vocalsound}User Interface: h how well these particular prototypes work , uh sorta find out what people think of 'em . Um using a remote control is isquite a subjective experience . Um ,Project Manager: Hmm .User Interface: and different different people sort of prefer different things . Um we should remember that remote controls are a a fairly standard piece ofequipment . When a users using a remote control , he or she expects the buttons to be in certain places . So in some sense we're gonna we're gonna have to aim for a device which is fairly conventional in design uh sothat we're not completely shocking people . But I think within that there is also room for us to introduce novel ideas uh and to make something that's that's perhaps a little bit different , something that stands out . Umalso in in designing the user interface we need to consider practicalities . Uh the first of these is is technological ye uh what can we do with the current state of technology as it is . The second is is economic , uh we needto find a balance between features and price . So as you mentioned things like voice recognition would would add to the price uh but it would also im improve the design of the product .Project Manager: Hmm .UserInterface: So I had a look on the {disfmarker} on the web uh to see if I could find a few examples of existing television remote controls . In analysing these we can consider what what things {disfmarker} what's goodabout them , uh what things do they get right , what's bad about them , what's wrong with 'em , um how we can improve on the designs that that that I found and what can we do to make our product stand out fromfrom the large majority of remote controls . Here's two examples uh probably at the extreme ends of the spectrum .Project Manager: {vocalsound}User Interface: Um on the left here we've got uh an engineering-baseddesign for a remote control ,Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}User Interface: so it's one that's got lots of buttons , it's it's fully featured , everything you might possibly want to do is there , you know , it's got forward ,backwards , up , down , channel numbers , volume , uh freeze frame . Yeah , it's it's fully featured and it might take a while to get to learn to use it , but once you've learned it you can {disfmarker} you can dowhatever you want with your T_V_ . The one on the right is a lot more basic . It's just got the essential functions of the T_V_ changing the channel , play , stop , volume . It would be a lot quicker to learn to use it , butagain th it's it's swings and roundabouts . There are disadvantages , you can't use it say to to freeze the television picture . Uh there's a lot of features that are missing from that remote control . So we've got to to findour {disfmarker} find a way of striking a balance between the two . Um as I said before , remote controls are subjective , different people want want different things . Um personally wa what I want from a remotecontrol is a device that's simple , it it's easy to use , uh it's got big buttons for doing the things I do most often , changing the volume , changing the channel . It it does everything that I need it to uh , as I said before ,I'm quite lazy , I don't wanna walk across the room just to adjust my television . I also want something that that looks cool , um and that that feels good , that's ergonomically designed .Project Manager: Mm 'kay .Thank you very much . That was very useful . {vocalsound} It's funny to see the {vocalsound} drastic difference between those two remotes . {vocalsound} Um .Industrial Designer: Hmm .Project Manager: Andneither of them were very pretty , you know ?Industrial Designer: Yeah .User Interface: {vocalsound}Marketing: No .Industrial Designer: I think that could be our selling point .Project Manager: Mm .Marketing: Afashion fashion remote .Industrial Designer: Right .User Interface: I think there's there's certainly a market for technology that looks cool .Project Manager: Mm .User Interface: And I think that's that's why companieslike Apple've 've 've made a lot of progress .Marketing: Mm-hmm .Industrial Designer: Hmm .Marketing: Yeah .Industrial Designer: Right , I really can't see what I'm doing , so does anyone have a {disfmarker}ProjectManager: You {disfmarker} there it is .Industrial Designer: Ah-ha , look at that , showing up already .Project Manager: Lovely .Marketing: So wait , did it let you go on the Internet or was that just what it let you see?User Interface: Uh that was just on the d on the company web site , yeah .Marketing: Okay . 'Cause I was like googlingProject Manager: Hmm .Industrial Designer: Yeah .Marketing: and then I'm like wait{vocalsound} it won't let me google . {vocalsound}User Interface: {vocalsound}Industrial Designer: Alright um {disfmarker} No , how do I play again ?Project Manager: Um the {disfmarker} it's right above Draw .There are three thingy if {disfmarker} it's way at the bottom . Under three iconsIndustrial Designer: Ah .Project Manager: and it's the one that looks like a desk . Yeah , that one . There are Y_s {gap} .IndustrialDesigner: Okay . So this is our working design presentation . Um I had a bit of {disfmarker} some issues with this , because I wasn't able to find everything I needed , but I guess that's {disfmarker} we're still in earlystages . Um so , yeah , this is this . Though th the thing about working design is the {disfmarker} what we're trying to do as a working design is figure out how the aparata apparatus can fulfil its function . Um one ofthe examples that kept coming up for me is that a coffee grinder . It works because it converts electrical energy to grinding the beans and then you put the bean through a filter and that filters out , and then you getcoffee at the end that's nice and hot because of the combination of electrical energy and then the other things that are brought in to make it work . Don't know if I'm explaining that very well , but {disfmarker} how do Iget to the next s ah . So h the method as um working designers figure out what you need to make it fulfil this practical function , what what needs to be done and how do we convert all the elements to make that done.Marketing: {vocalsound}Industrial Designer: So wha the easiest thing to do is to break down all the points at which you need something to happen . So you make a schematic of the way that the the energy isconverted tsh towards this practical function . And then I think the easiest thing to do is gonna be work on each task separately . So um {disfmarker}Project Manager: You just press {disfmarker}Industrial Designer: Uh. Uh .Project Manager: yeah , just click . That'll be fine .Industrial Designer: So the findings that I got uh very {disfmarker} just very briefly is that you have a choice of the way that the information is projected to thereceiver and in my opinion infra-red is the best way to do that 'cause you don't need a sight line . So that's one thing we're gonna work on . Um the user interface is critical here , because a lot of the things that happenin a remote control happen through the chip that controls {disfmarker} that converts the electrical energy into data , which then goes through the infra-red , so the the chip that uh I think Ian is designing , is gonna becrucial . And really it all comes down to the to the user , because they're the one that's controlling most of the working design . So the components that we find here are the energy source , you know the battery orwhatever that's gonna m make it work , then the chip , which converts the data , the user that's controlling the chip , and the infra-red bulb that's gonna let us move the data to the receiver . So you have four maincomponents and they are designed sort of like this . You have your energy source right there which then um brings uh energy or information to the chip , which is also controlled by the users . You have energy going tothe user who's controlling the chip {disfmarker} ooh 's not what I wanted to do uh uh .Project Manager: Um yeah use that thing {gap} you can go back , previous .Industrial Designer: Previous . Sorry about that , guys.Project Manager: {vocalsound} Pardon .Industrial Designer: Oh .Project Manager: Oh , well .Industrial Designer: No , no , no , no , no .Project Manager: Okay .Industrial Designer: Okay , let's just get back to myschematic here .Project Manager: Ye Double click on it . With the right {disfmarker} with the left hand one .Industrial Designer: W yeah , yeah . I think it's frozen . Here . Don't show me that tip again .Project Manager:{vocalsound} There we are .Industrial Designer: There we are . Sorry about this , guys .Marketing: {vocalsound}Industrial Designer: I'm kind of pathetic with things like this . Um alright . So you have your energysource , your user interface who's controlling the chip , the chip also uses the energy , and the chip through the use of the user interface is gonna control the switch which will work your infra-red bulb , which will thenbring the data to the receiver . So hopefully that makes sense for everyone in my kind of garbled way .Project Manager: Mm-hmm .Industrial Designer: This is the the parts of the working design that need to be figuredout . And {vocalsound} personal preferences , besides the fact that I can't spell , we need a long-lasting energy source , people don't wanna be changing it a lot . We need a chip that works well with the user interface ,that isn't too complicated . We need a straightforward interface , like Ian was saying , simple , not overwhelming it with information and we need a reliable and clear infra-red signal , so that you're not waving yourremote aroundProject Manager: Mm-hmm .Industrial Designer: and having to get frustrated and go do it by hands . So that's pretty much it for the working design .Project Manager: Excellent . {gap} So , um .IndustrialDesigner: Rose , do you think you can give me a hand with this ?Project Manager: Yes , absolutely . Ah I can never tell which way to turn these things .Industrial Designer: Yeah .Project Manager: Lefty loosey , rightytighty , right ?Industrial Designer: Yeah .Marketing: {vocalsound}User Interface: What's up ?Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}Project Manager: {vocalsound} Lefty loosey , righty tighty .User Interface: Lefty loosey .Uh .Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}User Interface: {vocalsound} Never heard that before ,Project Manager: {vocalsound} Oh yes .User Interface: that's good . {vocalsound}Marketing: {vocalsound}User Interface:I'll think of that every time now .Project Manager: {vocalsound}Industrial Designer: It's gonna stick in your head .User Interface: {vocalsound}Marketing: Yeah , that's a good one it'll stick with you .Project Manager:Mm 'kay . Um I have nothing on my screen . Just a sec . Here we are .Industrial Designer: Mm . Ooh ,Project Manager: Okay , yeah , it's fine .Industrial Designer: no signal .Project Manager: Okay , requirements . Wehave a couple new requirements that I was just e-mailed right before the meeting and that we have to keep in in um in mind as we're creating this .Industrial Designer: Okay .Project Manager: We didn't bring it up yet ,or at all in the meetings so far , but we're not gonna work with teletext because um {disfmarker} well it {disfmarker} that's been taken over by the internet , so we're not gonna worry about um {disfmarker} we're notgonna worry about that .Marketing: What's teletext ?Project Manager: Um .Industrial Designer: Uh , it's a British thing .Marketing: Oh . Oh ,User Interface: You don't have it in the States ?Marketing: so{disfmarker}Project Manager: It {disfmarker}Industrial Designer: No . {vocalsound}Project Manager: no . W d could {disfmarker} would you care to explain it ?User Interface: Oh , I didn't realise . Um yeah , it's like a{disfmarker} I suppose it's kind of similar to a very very basic web browser . Um you have like you have uh numbers on your remote control , uh y and you type in the page number you want ,Marketing: Mm-hmm.User Interface: so like you type a hundred on your remote control and this this kind of index appears on the television screen with just some some text and some very blocky looking graphics on it . And you just typenumbers to go to different pages and it gives you information , mostly rather boring stuff like what's on T_V_ next and share prices and that kind of thing .Marketing: {gap}Industrial Designer: S {vocalsound} Lotterynumbers and sport scores .User Interface: Yep , news headlines .Industrial Designer: But if you ever see the T_V_ saying like go to page one sixty on Ceefax now , that's what they're talking about .Project Manager:How ?User Interface: It's earl it's pretty old technology .Marketing: Oh .User Interface: It's like nineteen eighties .Project Manager: Okay .Marketing: That explains a lot .Industrial Designer: I have no idea why we don't