Project Manager: Okay . Right . Conceptual design meeting . Right . Okay , so {disfmarker} Right well um from the last meeting {vocalsound} I was trying to send you the minutes , but uh it didn't work out too well , somaybe in sort of um quick summary of the last uh meeting , I can quickly give you what we what we had .User Interface: {vocalsound}Project Manager: Uh right , so {disfmarker} Wishing I hadn't closed the damn{disfmarker} Right so we had the fact that we're gonna have the the logo uh the company logo in its uh colour scheme incorporated onto the the device the remote device . We had uh made our decisions about uhmade our decisions about uh the device itself , that it was gonna be simple to make it uh enable us to complete the project in time . We're gonna have uh effectively two pages , a front page which had the uh featuresthat the uh the customers most wanted , and then the uh the backup features on the second page so that it could uh meet the technical requirements . And the customers wouldn't have to look at them too often , onlyas and when required . So . So basically what decisions uh have we uh made ? Uh have there been any uh changes ?Industrial Designer: I think we all have a presentation again ,Project Manager: Right .IndustrialDesigner: so if we go through those and then umMarketing: Yeah .Project Manager: Three presentation , yeah .Industrial Designer: {gap} . Shall I go first again ? {gap}Project Manager: So {disfmarker} Yeah , fine.Marketing: Okay .Industrial Designer: I see {gap} this a little more smoothly than the last one . {vocalsound}Project Manager: {vocalsound}Industrial Designer: Okay right , let's get started . Um basically the uh forthe {disfmarker} Um I'll {gap} back actually . For the components design , um next step is basically the the way the remote's gonna work is still the same idea as before . We still have the user interface which is all thebuttons we're gonna incorporate . Then there is a chip and still the sender . So um yes {gap} including the power s supply as well . Um I'll go on to my findings in each of these areas . Uh first in the power supply , wehave the option of just the standard battery , um . {vocalsound} There's a dynamo . Any of you think of kind of like the the old torches which you wind up {gap} um . There's a kinetic option , which if any of you'veseen those new watches which you kind of you power up by waving around , um it just requires a small amount of movement which would mean the batteries wouldn't have to be replaced . Um that's one option,Marketing: Mm-hmm .Industrial Designer: but I think that was gonna cost a little more . And then there's solar cells . Um as a final option . For the buttons , we have um an integrated push button , which is{disfmarker} Oh just to say all all these are um supplied by Real Reaction . So I guess for the ease of for quickness and ease we should take them from at least like one of these options .Project Manager: Okay.Industrial Designer: Um so for the buttons there's an integrated push button , which I guess is just the same as the standard ones . This says it's uh similar to uh the button on the mouse for a normal {disfmarker} forlike uh like modern computer . Um there's a scroll wheel which is {disfmarker} you know the new mouse has just got like the centre section which you can scroll up and down , which may be for the volume .ProjectManager: Mm-hmm .Industrial Designer: You could do do that .Marketing: Mm-hmm .Industrial Designer: Um one issue for the buttons is , depending on which material we use , if we use rubber buttons then it requiresa rubber case , so we have to take that into consideration . Um moving on to the printed sProject Manager: What would be the cost do do we know ?Industrial Designer: Um that's on the next {disfmarker}ProjectManager: {gap}Industrial Designer: I th I think the there wasn't too much difference in the cost , that that related to the actual buttons , but it does affect the printed circuit board . Um which is the next section .Basically for the circuit board which is the middle , it's just {disfmarker} see it down there the chips like the like the workings of the actual um of the remote .Project Manager: Mm-hmm .Industrial Designer: The firmsupplies a simple , a regular and an advanced um circuit board . And there's different prices according to each . So if we've got the scroll wheel for one of the buttons , that would require a slightly more advanced circuitboard than if we just had a standard um push button .Project Manager: Mm-hmm .Industrial Designer: Um one final thing we came up with was some information on the speech recognition . There's a small unitavailable through the company um which obviously would be an extra cost , but it wouldn't affect the size of the remote too much . Um and I guess that would require a more advanced circuit board , so there is an extraprice in that sense . There is th sorry an extra cost in that sense . Um going to my personal preferences , um I thought possibly for power we could use kinetic um which is the idea of the watches um that you move youmove the remote around to power it up . And this would avoid batteries running out , having to replace batteries and such like . Um for the buttons , I thought we'd probably get away with just having the standard umpush buttons rather than the scroll wheel . Um and for the circuit board , again depends on which features we want in the actual in the remote . So if we wanted the scroll wheel and wanted the voice recognition , umthen we'd have to get a a more costly circuit board . And that's it .Marketing: 'Kay .Project Manager: {gap} with the printed circuit boards you were going for the {disfmarker}User Interface: Thanks .{vocalsound}Industrial Designer: Um i it kind of depends um if we're gonna have the speech recognition , we'd have to probably get an advanced one . I'm guessing .Project Manager: Mm-hmm .Industrial Designer: Uhbut I don't know , so that is something I'll have to look into .Project Manager: But are we going f R right .Industrial Designer: Um that's a that's a decision for all of us . Um .Project Manager: So are we able to make thatdecision now in a sense that this is the point at which we're discussing that issue ,Industrial Designer: Yeah yeah . We decide . Yeah .Marketing: Mm-hmm .Project Manager: so would it not be best to {disfmarker}rather than {disfmarker} I mean one way is to do each of the presentations and then make decisions going back to the various presentations as they were . The other way would be to do the presentationMarketing:Mm-hmm .Project Manager: and then make the decision at that point in time .Industrial Designer: Um . Maybe wUser Interface: Yeah , that's probably a better one , to discuss it straight away .Project Manager: 'Causeat that point then you've got the details up there , so if we wanted to know for instance that the scroll wheel required the regular {gap} and what required advance . Then if we were able to see that down then we couldmake the decision at that point in timeIndustrial Designer: Um .Project Manager: and then that would be the end of that issue . Does that make sense ?Industrial Designer: Yes .User Interface: {vocalsound} Um I havea lot of the information there .Marketing: Mm-hmm .User Interface: It might not be very clear .Industrial Designer: Is there {disfmarker}User Interface: Unless you want to plug it back in to yours .Industrial Designer:Um . We could do , yeah . Um yeah we should {gap} .Project Manager: {vocalsound}Industrial Designer: As I say it only specified that we need a more advanced circuit board for the scroll wheel ,Project Manager:Mm-hmm .Industrial Designer: it didn't {disfmarker} The voice recognition came as a separate piece of information . Um .Project Manager: No the scroll wheel required the regular , so the {disfmarker}IndustrialDesigner: Yeah if if you {gap} down um . It's just this bit at the bottom which I've highlighted ,Project Manager: Hmm .Industrial Designer: but the scroll wheel requires a mini m minimally a regular chip ,ProjectManager: {vocalsound}Industrial Designer: which is in the higher price range .Project Manager: Okay . The display requires an advanced chipUser Interface: I think the scroll wheel um {disfmarker}Project Manager:the display requires an advanced chip which in turn is more expense .Industrial Designer: Also the display's for something else which we decided against . Um but that bit {disfmarker}Project Manager: Okay .IndustrialDesigner: And note that the push button just requires a simple chip , so that would keep the price down .Project Manager: Down .User Interface: Yeah , and if we're going for sleek and sexy , I think a scroll wheel ismaybe a bit kinda bulky ?Marketing: Mm-hmm .User Interface: I I've got um pictures well I've seen pictures with it kind of sticking off the side of it ,Project Manager: Right . Okay .User Interface: and they don't reallylook great .Industrial Designer: 'Kay . So maybe just a simple push button , and that would cut costs on the {disfmarker}Project Manager: So . So we're going for p Okay . So {gap} is um {disfmarker}Marketing: Soare we going for the w are we going for the simple one , are we ?User Interface: Yeah , a simple pushbuttons .Project Manager: Simple push button . {vocalsound}Marketing: Okay .Industrial Designer: {gap} Dideveryone get this on the speech recognition ? The um it was basically what we said before , the idea that you record in a set message , and then it picks up that message um and replies to you .Project Manager:Mm-hmm .Marketing: Yeah .Industrial Designer: So it is basically the concept we discussed before . Um but then we don't know for sure whether it would require a more complicated circuit board .Marketing:{gap}Industrial Designer: I'm guessing it would , but {gap} got like the definite information . Maybe we should go on what we're certain of rather than {disfmarker}Project Manager: So if we go for the simple pushbutton , so effectively we're going for the simple printed circuit board are we ? Or are we going for the regular ?Industrial Designer: Um if it's just the push button then it just needs the simple circuit board .ProjectManager: Mm-mm . But is there any other {disfmarker} {vocalsound} I mean okay , that's true for the {disfmarker} for for that element , but we have to take all {gap} el elements into consideration . And so if there isone element that requires the more expensive one , or say the regular one , or the more advanced , then that would have to be the same for all of them . SMarketing: Mm .User Interface: Hmm . But{disfmarker}Marketing: I suppose we need we need to find out what circuit board that requires , maybe before we {gap} m make a decision .Project Manager: Right .User Interface: But the way that I interpret that umit doesn't seem to send out a signal to the telly , it just {disfmarker} it's like a parrot just rep reply replying to your message .Project Manager: Mm-hmm .Marketing: Oh yeah , I suppose so , yeah .Industrial Designer:So maybe that would be something separate , yeah .User Interface: So I don't think it would effect our circuit board .Project Manager: No .Marketing: Yeah .Industrial Designer: Okay , so we'd have a simple circuitboardProject Manager: {vocalsound}Industrial Designer: and that would be an extra that would be in addition to it .User Interface: Yeah .Industrial Designer: Oh that makes sense .User Interface: And I don't think youcould really perform any of the remote functions with it .Marketing: Yeah .User Interface: 'Cause the example that they've given there is good morning coffee machine , good morning Jo .Project Manager: Mm-mm .UserInterface: It might be useful to say like where are you remote . Here I am , Jo .Industrial Designer: Okay .Marketing: {vocalsound} Yeah . {vocalsound}Project Manager: {vocalsound}User Interface: {vocalsound} ButI think that's maybe as far as that one could go ?Project Manager: Okay .Marketing: Yeah .Industrial Designer: Yeah that makes sense , so we'd stick with the simple circuit board and then think of the speechrecognition as an extra an extra possibility .User Interface: Yeah , just as a fun way to find it .Project Manager: {vocalsound}Industrial Designer: Okay . Um .Project Manager: Simple circuit board . Simple push button .Okay . W w kinetic .User Interface: And it says that {disfmarker}Project Manager: You were you were wanting to go for the kinetic power supply .User Interface: I think it said the cost of that isn't too much .IndustrialDesigner: Um yeah I I thought so just for {disfmarker} just for ease of not having to replace the batteries .Project Manager: Mm-hmm .Marketing: Mm-hmm .Industrial Designer: Um .Project Manager: And how does itget uh charged up ?Industrial Designer: It's um I think it works on the basis they have some kind of ball bearings inside . It's um it's some on watches which you you kind of you shake to power it up . Somehow themechanism inside powers up through movement .Marketing: Mm-hmm .Project Manager: Okay .Industrial Designer: So you'd you'd move the remote around a little bit and then that powers it up to use it .ProjectManager: Okay .Marketing: Yeah .Project Manager: So the speech recognition was {disfmarker} Are we going for speech recognition ? No ? 'Cause that required the advanced {disfmarker}User Interface: Um I think itwould be helpful to find it , but I don't think it'd um {disfmarker}Marketing: Just {disfmarker}Industrial Designer: Uh yeah I think {disfmarker} did we decide it didn't affect the circuit board , it just affected{disfmarker}User Interface: Yeah , I think so .Marketing: Just just for the call and find thing .Industrial Designer: It was just {disfmarker}Project Manager: I had speech recognition requires advanced reqrequireIndustrial Designer: Oh no th that's what that's what I thought , but maybe maybe it doesn't {gap} .Project Manager: Oh .Industrial Designer: Um I think I might have got that wrong .Project Manager: So okay.Marketing: 'Cause it's s it's separate isn't it ,Project Manager: Speech recognition you reckon then is s simple .Marketing: it's not part of the {disfmarker}Industrial Designer: It's it's just an addition thing it's um yeah.Project Manager: And so we would want it in as an extra because it doesn't appear to cost too much . Would that be {disfmarker}Industrial Designer: 'Kay .User Interface: Mm-hmm .Marketing: Mm-hmm .IndustrialDesigner: 'Kay shall I pass on to you now ?User Interface: I think {disfmarker}Project Manager: In fact , it wouldn't really cost anymore , would it ?User Interface: I'll just just check what it said . Actually I don't think itreally says anything about the cost , but it says that it's already in the coffee machines , so like it's already kind of {disfmarker}Marketing: Yeah .Industrial Designer: I assume it would cost extra , but {disfmarker}Maybe we maybe we'll find out how much that does cost and have to decide slightly later .Project Manager: {vocalsound} And then have to change all {vocalsound} change {gap} everything at the last minute .UserInterface: {vocalsound}Project Manager: Okay . SUser Interface: Um . {vocalsound} Oh , that was quick . Um okay , so very brief presentation , um . From looking at the remotes that are out there at the minute ,none of them are particularly um sleek and sexy . Um I haven't actually got the examples of the scroll button there , um but there's some curved cases that you can see , uh a range of sizes uh . All of them have a lot ofbuttons there um they seem to just have the rubber buttons . Does that move it ?Project Manager: Sorry ?User Interface: It just seems to be skipping on without us doing anything . {vocalsound}Project Manager: Yeah, I've found that {gap} try and get it back .Industrial Designer: If you right click and then go onto a previous slide .User Interface: Ah it's alright .Industrial Designer: Okay , right .User Interface: Um . There wasn'tmuch more to say about that , just rambling . {vocalsound} Um some of the uh remotes that I looked at , one of the models da did actually have voice recognition where you could um where it was connected to theremote control functions . And uh it was quite uh a swish model , where it can control uh four devices , T_V_ , cable , satellite , video , D_V_D_ , audio . Um so that's a bit of competition there . So I mean maybe it'sbetter not to try and compete with that sort of thing and just to market it as a completely different um like different viewpoint as a kind of finding your lost controlIndustrial Designer: Yeah , yeah .User Interface: ratherthan trying to compete with the functions . Um the scroll buttons , as you've already mentioned , um there's examples of those , but they don't look as sleek as other models . And there's no real advantage and{disfmarker} because it impacts on other {disfmarker} on the materials and the price it's not great .Industrial Designer: On the price , yeah .Project Manager: So you were saying the scroll buttons {disfmarker}UserInterface: Um {disfmarker} Yeah . Th there was a specialist type of remote that we could think about , um . There was children's remote , where um they just had a very limited range of buttons and they were b uhbright and colourful and um you you could program them so that they could only look at certain channels .Project Manager: Mm-hmm .Industrial Designer: 'Kay .User Interface: Um but I don't know if that's really in ourfield ?Industrial Designer: I guess I guess we're going for the biggest market , {gap} maybe not ,User Interface: But that's something that's out there .Industrial Designer: but {disfmarker} Was it was it specified thatwe went for the biggest ?Project Manager: Well we're to go for the international market rather than a local market but that that wouldn't necessarily preclude {disfmarker}User Interface: Hmm .Project Manager: Theone thing that you can often do with products is you can uh make small modifications . So you have your basic model which you would sell at whatever , and then you could have additional features in you know like a{disfmarker} You'd have model one , model two and model three , and therefore you can sub-divide your market up . But that's really where your field is .User Interface: {vocalsound}Marketing: Mm-hmm .ProjectManager: {vocalsound} {vocalsound}Industrial Designer: So maybe the children's remote should be like a a next step , but maybe I dunno for ours , maybe we should {disfmarker}Project Manager: Anyway you couldadd on for an extra package , but on this basic one I'm reckoning that we're going for the basic model to be discussed here and that uh you would have for future reference the possibility of adding in extra features atextra cost to take care of specialist market segments .User Interface: Hmm .Marketing: Mm-hmm . Mm-hmm .User Interface: Okay .Project Manager: Is thatUser Interface: Right well that's something that we can beaware of .Project Manager: So so what are we deciding to do here ?User Interface: Um . I think because there's already um very good voice recognition technology out there , and because ours might not cover thesame functions that the leading brands do , it might be a good idea to market it as a um finder function .Project Manager: Right . Mm-hmm . Uh the fi Yeah , the finder function rather than as a speech function to findyour remote .Industrial Designer: Yeah .User Interface: Yeah .Project Manager: Okay .Industrial Designer: So you also said for going for the international market um that some some maybe older people might not likethe speech recognition . S s so um {disfmarker}User Interface: Oh yeah . Different languages might not be compatible .Industrial Designer: Yeah , yeah . It w it would make it quite complicated ,Project Manager: Hmm.Industrial Designer: where um ours at least keeps it fairly simple and then the {disfmarker}User Interface: Hmm .Marketing: Mm-hmm .User Interface: Yeah , 'cause I think you program um this one yourself , like tosay like whatever you want to your question .Industrial Designer: Yeah , yeah .Marketing: Yeah and ours is quite a cheap device , so I don't know how much we'll be able to put into it .Industrial Designer: Yeah .ProjectManager: So you'd have a finder feature rather than a voice recognition feature .Marketing: Yeah .User Interface: Hmm .Project Manager: And you were talkingUser Interface: Maybe unless something else comes up.Project Manager: Mm . And you were talking about scroll buttons ?User Interface: Um yeah I think um I think we've decided that it's gonna increase the costProject Manager: Okay .User Interface: and give no realkinda extra benefitProject Manager: {gap} bIndustrial Designer: Yeah .User Interface: and it's gonna decrease from the sleekness of it .Project Manager: Alright , so we're just gonna have the the rubber buttons , wasthat right ?Industrial Designer: Yes yes .User Interface: Hmm um and just to be aware that there are kind of specialist functions and specialist remotes but we probably don't want to focus on those like such as the


Grad D: Channel one .PhD G: Test .PhD E: Hello .Grad D: Channel three .PhD G: Test .PhD A: Uh - oh .Professor F: So you think we 're going now , yes ? OK , good . Alright Going again Uh {disfmarker} So we 're gonnago around as before , and uh do {disfmarker} do our digits . Uh transcript one three one one dash one three three zero . {comment} three two three {comment} four seven six five {comment} five three one six twofour one {comment} six seven {comment} seven {comment} eight {comment} nine zero nine four zero zero three {comment} zero one five eight {comment} one seven three five three {comment} two six eight zero{comment} three six two four three zero seven {comment} four {comment} five zero six nine four {comment} seven four {comment} eight five seven {comment} nine six one five {comment} O seven eight O two{comment} zero nine six zero four zero zero {comment} one {comment} two {comment} Uh {disfmarker} Yeah , you don't actually n need to say the name .Grad C: OK , {vocalsound} this is Barry Chen and I amreading transcriptProfessor F: That 'll probably be bleeped out .Grad C: OK .Professor F: So . That 's if these are anonymized , but {vocalsound} Yeah {disfmarker}Grad C: Oh . {comment} OK .Professor F: uh{disfmarker} I mean {disfmarker} not that there 's anything defamatory about uh {disfmarker} eight five seven or {vocalsound} or anything , butGrad C: OK .Professor F: Uh , anyway . Uh {disfmarker} so here 'swhat I have for {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I was just jotting down things I think th w that we should do today . Uh {disfmarker} This is what I have for an agenda so far Um , We should talk a little bit about the plansfor the uh {disfmarker} the field trip next week . Uh {disfmarker} a number of us are doing a field trip to uh Uh {disfmarker} OGI And uh {disfmarker} mostly uh First though about the logistics for it . Then maybelater on in the meeting we should talk about what we actually you know , might accomplish . Uh {disfmarker}Grad C: OK .Professor F: Uh , in and {pause} kind of go around {disfmarker} see what people have beendoing {disfmarker} talk about that , {pause} a r progress report . Um , Essentially . Um {disfmarker} And then uh {disfmarker} Another topic I had was that uh {disfmarker} uh {disfmarker} Uh {disfmarker} Davehere had uh said uh " Give me something to do . " And I {disfmarker} I have {disfmarker} I have uh {disfmarker} failed so far in doing that . And so maybe we can discuss that a little bit . If we find some holes in somethings that {disfmarker} that {disfmarker} someone could use some help with , he 's {disfmarker} he 's volunteering to help .PhD A: I 've got to move a bunch of furniture .Professor F: OK , always count on a{vocalsound} serious comment from that corner . So , um , uh , and uh , then uh , talk a little bit about {disfmarker} about disks and resource {disfmarker} resource issues that {disfmarker} that 's starting to getworked out . And then , anything else anybody has that isn't in that list ? Uh {disfmarker}Grad D: I was just wondering , does this mean the battery 's dying and I should change it ?Professor F: Uh I think that meansthe battery 's O K . {disfmarker}PhD A: Let me see .Professor F: d {disfmarker} do youGrad D: Oh OK , so thPhD A: Yeah , that 's good . You 're alright ?Grad D: Cuz it 's full .Professor F: Yeah . Yeah .Grad D: Alright.Professor F: Yeah . Yeah . It looks full of electrons . OK . Plenty of electrons left there . OK , so , um , uh . OK , so , uh , I wanted to start this with this mundane thing . Um {disfmarker} Uh {disfmarker} I {disfmarker}I {disfmarker} it was {disfmarker} it was kind of my bright idea to have us take a plane that leaves at seven twenty in the morning .Grad C: Oh , yeah , that 's right .Professor F: Um . Uh {vocalsound} this is uh{disfmarker} The reason I did it uh was because otherwise for those of us who have to come back the same day it is really not much of a {disfmarker} of a visit . Uh {disfmarker} So um the issue is how {disfmarker}how {disfmarker} how would we ever accomplish that ? Uh {disfmarker} what {disfmarker} what {disfmarker} what part of town do you live in ?Grad C: Um , I live in , um , the corner of campus . The , um , southeastcorner .Professor F: OK . OK , so would it be easier {disfmarker} those of you who are not , you know , used to this area , it can be very tricky to get to the airport at {disfmarker} at uh , you know , six thirty . Um . So. Would it be easier for you if you came here and I drove you ? Yeah ? Yeah , yeah , OK .PhD G: Yeah , perhaps , yeah .Grad C: Yeah . Sure .PhD E: Yeah .Professor F: OK , so if {disfmarker} if everybody can get hereat six .PhD E: At six .Professor F: Yeah , I 'm afraid we need to do that to get there on time .Grad C: Six , OK .Professor F: Yeah , so . Oh boy . Anyway , so .PhD A: Will that {pause} be enough time ?Professor F: Yeah .Yeah , so I 'll just pull up in front at six and just be out front . And , uh , and yeah , that 'll be plenty of time . It 'll take {disfmarker} it {disfmarker} it {disfmarker} it won't be bad traffic that time of day and{disfmarker} and uhPhD A: I guess once you get past the bridge {pause} that that would be the worst .PhD B: Yeah , Oakland .Professor F: Going to Oakland .PhD A: Yeah .Grad C: Oakland .PhD A: Once you get pastthe turnoff to the {pause} Bay Bridge .Professor F: Bridge oh , the turnoff to the bridgePhD A: Yeah .Professor F: Won't even do that .PhD B: Yeah .Professor F: I mean , just go down Martin Luther King .PhD A: Yeah .OK . Mm - hmm .Professor F: And then Martin Luther King to nine - eighty to eight - eighty ,PhD A: Yeah .Professor F: and it 's {disfmarker} it 'd take us , tops uh thirty minutes to get there .PhD A: Oh , I{disfmarker}Professor F: So that leaves us fifty minutes before the plane {disfmarker} it 'll just {disfmarker} yeah . So Great , OK so that 'll It 's {disfmarker} I mean , it 's still not going to be really easy but{disfmarker} well Particularly for {disfmarker} for uh {disfmarker} for Barry and me , we 're not {disfmarker} we 're not staying overnight so we don't need to bring anything particularly except for {vocalsound} uh{disfmarker} a pad of paper and {disfmarker} {vocalsound} So , and , uh you , two have to bring a little bitGrad C: OK .Professor F: but uh {disfmarker} you know , don't {disfmarker} don't bring a footlocker and we'll be OK So .Grad C: s So just {disfmarker}Professor F: W you 're staying overnight . I figured you wouldn't need a great big suitcase , yeah .PhD G: Oh yeah . Yeah .Professor F: That 's sort of {pause} {vocalsound}one night . So . Anyway . OK .Grad C: So , s six AM , in front .Professor F: Six AM in front .Grad C: OK .Professor F: Uh , I 'll be here . Uh {disfmarker} I 'll {disfmarker} I 'll {disfmarker} I 'll {disfmarker} I 'll give youmy phone number , If I 'm not here for a few m after a few minutes thenGrad C: Wake you up .Professor F: Nah , I 'll be fine . I just , uh {disfmarker} it {disfmarker} for me it just means getting up a half an hourearlier than I usually do . Not {disfmarker} not {disfmarker} not a lot ,Grad C: OK . Wednesday .Professor F: so OK , that was the real real important stuff . Um , I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I figured maybe wait onthe potential goals for the meeting uh {disfmarker} until we talk about wh what 's been going on . So , uh , what 's been going on ? Why don't we start {disfmarker} start over here .PhD G: Um . {vocalsound} Well ,preparation of the French test data actually .Professor F: OK .PhD G: So , {vocalsound} it means that um , well , it is , uh , a digit French database of microphone speech , downsampled to eight kilohertz and I 've addednoise to one part , with the {disfmarker} actually the Aurora - two noises . And , @ @ so this is a training part . And then {pause} the remaining part , I use for testing and {disfmarker} with other kind of noises . Sowe can {disfmarker} So this is almost ready . I 'm preparing the {disfmarker} the HTK baseline for this task . And , yeah .Professor F: OK Uh , So the HTK base lines {disfmarker} so this is using mel cepstra and so on ,or {disfmarker} ? Yeah . OK .PhD G: Yeah .Professor F: And again , I guess the p the plan is , uh , to uh {disfmarker} then given this {disfmarker} What 's the plan again ?PhD G: The plan with {pause} these data?Professor F: With {disfmarker} So {disfmarker} So {disfmarker} Does i Just remind me of what {disfmarker} what you were going to do with the {disfmarker} what {disfmarker} what {disfmarker} what{disfmarker} what 's {disfmarker} y You just described what you 've been doing . So if you could remind me of what you 're going to be doing .PhD G: Yeah .Professor F: Oh , this is {disfmarker} yeah , yeah .PhD G:Uh , yeah .Grad C: Tell him about the cube .PhD G: Well . The cube ? I should tell him about the cube ?Grad C: Yeah .Professor F: Oh ! Cube . Yeah .PhD G: Yeah .PhD E: Fill in the cube .PhD G: Uh we {disfmarker}actually we want to , mmm , Uh , {vocalsound} uh , analyze three dimensions , the feature dimension , the {pause} training data dimension , and the test data dimension . Um . Well , what we want to do is first wehave number for each {pause} uh task . So we have the um , TI - digit task , the Italian task , the French task {pause} and the Finnish task .Professor F: Yeah ?PhD G: So we have numbers with {pause} uh{disfmarker} systems {disfmarker} I mean {disfmarker} I mean neural networks trained on the task data . And then to have systems with neural networks trained on , {vocalsound} uh , data from the same language ,if possible , with , well , using a more generic database , which is phonetically {disfmarker} phonetically balanced , and . Um .Professor F: So - so we had talked {disfmarker} I guess we had talked at one point aboutmaybe , the language ID corpus ?PhD G: Yeah . So .Professor F: Is that a possibility for that ?PhD G: Ye - uh {disfmarker} {pause} Yeah , but , uh these corpus , w w there is a CallHome and a CallFriend also , TheCallFriend is for language ind identification . Well , anyway , these corpus are all telephone speech . So , um . {vocalsound} This could be a {disfmarker} {pause} a problem for {disfmarker} Why ? Because uh , uh ,the {disfmarker} the SpeechDat databases are not telephone speech . They are downsampled to eight kilohertz but {disfmarker} but they are not {vocalsound} uh with telephone bandwidth .Professor F: Yeah . That 'sreally funny isn't it ? I mean cuz th this whole thing is for {pause} developing new standards for the telephone .Grad C: Telephone .Professor F: Yeah .PhD G: Yeah , but the {disfmarker} the idea is to compute thefeature before {pause} the {disfmarker} before sending them to the {disfmarker} Well , {pause} you don't {disfmarker} do not send speech , you send features , computed on th the {disfmarker} {pause} the device,Professor F: Mm - hmm . Yeah , I know , but the reason {disfmarker}PhD G: or {disfmarker} Well .Professor F: Oh I see , so your point is that it 's {disfmarker} it 's {disfmarker} it 's uh {disfmarker} the features arecomputed locally , and so they aren't necessarily telephone bandwidth , uh or telephone distortions .PhD G: So you {disfmarker} Yeah . Yeah .PhD A: Did you {pause} happen to find out anything about the OGImultilingual database ?Professor F: Yeah , that 's wh that 's wh that 's what I meant .PhD G: Yeah , it 's {disfmarker}Professor F: I said {disfmarker} @ @ , there 's {disfmarker} there 's {disfmarker} there 's an OGIlanguage ID , not the {disfmarker} not the , uh {disfmarker} the CallFriend is a {disfmarker} is a , uh , LDC w thing , right ?PhD G: Yea - Yeah , there are also two other databases . One they call the multi - languagedatabase , and another one is a twenty - two language , something like that . But it 's also telephone speech .PhD A: Oh , they are ? OK .PhD G: Uh . Well , nnn .Professor F: But I 'm not sure {disfmarker}PhD G: So{disfmarker}Professor F: I mean , we ' r e e The bandwidth shouldn't be such an issue right ? Because e e this is downsampled and {disfmarker} and filtered , right ? So it 's just the fact that it 's not telephone . Andthere are so many other differences between these different databases . I mean some of this stuff 's recorded in the car , and some of it 's {disfmarker} I mean there 's {disfmarker} there 's many different acousticdifferences . So I 'm not sure if {disfmarker} . I mean , unless we 're going to include a bunch of car recordings in the {disfmarker} in the training database , I 'm not sure if it 's {disfmarker} completely rules it outPhDG: Yeah .Professor F: if our {disfmarker} if we {disfmarker} if our major goal is to have phonetic context and you figure that there 's gonna be a mismatch in acoustic conditions does it make it much worse f to sort ofadd another mismatch , if you will .PhD G: Mmm .Professor F: Uh , i i I {disfmarker} I guess the question is how important is it to {disfmarker} for us to get multiple languages uh , in there .PhD G: Yeah , but{disfmarker} Mm - hmm . {vocalsound} Um . Yeah . Well , actually , for the moment if we w do not want to use these phone databases , we {disfmarker} we already have uh {disfmarker} English , Spanish and Frenchuh , with microphone speech . Professor F: Mm - hmm . Yeah .PhD G: So .Professor F: So that 's what you 're thinking of using is sort of the multi the equivalent of the multiple ?PhD G: Well . Yeah , for the multilingualpart we were thinking of using these three databases .Professor F: And for the difference in phonetic context {pause} that you {disfmarker} ? Provide that .PhD G: Well , this {disfmarker} Uh , actually , these threedatabases are um generic databases .PhD E: Yeah .PhD G: So w f for {disfmarker} for uh Italian , which is close to Spanish , French and , i i uh , TI - digits we have both uh , digits {pause} training data and also{pause} more general training data . So . Mmm .Professor F: Well , we also have this Broadcast News that we were talking about taking off the disk , which is {disfmarker} {vocalsound} is microphone data for{disfmarker} for English .PhD G: Yeah . Yeah , perhaps {disfmarker} yeah , there is also TIMIT .Professor F: Yeah .PhD G: We could use TIMIT .Professor F: Right . Yeah , so there 's plenty of stuff around . OK , soanyway , th the basic plan is to , uh , test this cube . Yes .PhD G: Yeah .PhD E: To fill in the cube .Professor F: To fill i fill it in , yeah . OK .PhD G: Yeah , and perhaps , um {disfmarker} {pause} We were thinking thatperhaps the cross - language issue is not , uh , so big of a issue . Well , w w we {disfmarker} perhaps we should not focus too much on that cross - language stuff . I mean , uh , training {disfmarker} training a net on alanguage and testing a for another language .Professor F: Uh - huh . But that 's {disfmarker}PhD G: Mmm . Perhaps the most important is to have neural networks trained on the target languages . But , uh , with ageneral database {disfmarker} general databases . u So that th Well , the {disfmarker} the guy who has to develop an application with one language can use the net trained o on that language , or a generic net,Professor F: Uh , depen it depen it depends how you mean " using the net " .PhD G: but not trained on a {disfmarker}Professor F: So , if you 're talking about for producing these discriminative features {pause} thatwe 're talking about {pause} you can't do that .PhD G: Mmm .Professor F: Because {disfmarker} because the {disfmarker} what they 're asking for is {disfmarker} is a feature set . Right ? And so , uh , we 're the oneswho have been weird by {disfmarker} by doing this training . But if we say , " No , you have to have a different feature set for each language , " I think this is ver gonna be very bad .PhD G: Yeah .Grad C: Oh .PhD G:You think so .Grad C: That 's {disfmarker}PhD E: Oh .Professor F: So {disfmarker} Oh yeah .PhD G: Mmm .Professor F: Yeah . I mean , in principle , I mean conceptually , it 's sort of like they want a re @ @{comment} well , they want a replacement for mel cepstra .PhD G: Mmm .Professor F: So , we say " OK , this is the year two thousand , we 've got something much better than mel cepstra . It 's , you know , gobbledy- gook . " OK ? And so {vocalsound} we give them these gobbledy - gook features but these gobbledy - gook features are supposed to be good for any language .PhD G: Hmm .Professor F: Cuz you don't know who 'sgonna call , and you know , I mean so it 's {disfmarker} it 's {disfmarker} it 's , uh , uh {disfmarker} how do you know what language it is ? Somebody picks up the phone . So thi this is their image . Someone picks upthe phone , right ?PhD G: Well , I {comment} chh {disfmarker}Professor F: And {disfmarker} and he {disfmarker} he picks up the phPhD G: Yeah , but the {disfmarker} the application is {disfmarker} there is a targetlanguage for the application .Professor F: Yeah . y y yPhD G: So , if a {disfmarker}Professor F: Well . But , no but , y you {disfmarker} you pick up the phone ,PhD G: Well .Professor F: you talk on the phone ,PhD G:Yeah ?Professor F: and it sends features out . OK , so the phone doesn't know what a {disfmarker} what {disfmarker} what your language is .PhD G: Yeah , if {disfmarker} Yeah . If it 's th in the phone , but{disfmarker}Professor F: But that 's the image that they have .PhD G: well , it {disfmarker} that {disfmarker} that could be th at the server 's side ,Professor F: It could be ,PhD G: and , well . Mmm , yeah .Professor F:but that 's the image they have , right ? So that 's {disfmarker} that 's {disfmarker} I mean , one could argue all over the place about how things really will be in ten years . But the particular image that the cellularindustry has right now is that it 's distributed speech recognition , where the , uh , uh , probabilistic part , and {disfmarker} and s semantics and so forth are all on the servers , and you compute features of the{disfmarker} uh , on the phone . So that 's {disfmarker} that 's what we 're involved in . We might {disfmarker} might or might not agree that that 's the way it will be in ten years , but that 's {disfmarker} that 's{disfmarker} that 's what they 're asking for . So {disfmarker} so I think that {disfmarker} th th it is an important issue whether it works cross - language . Now , it 's the OGI , uh , folks ' perspective right now thatprobably that 's not the biggest deal . And that the biggest deal is the , um envir acoustic - environment mismatch . And they may very well be right , but I {disfmarker} I was hoping we could just do a test anddetermine if that was true . If that 's true , we don't need to worry so much . Maybe {disfmarker} maybe we have a couple languages in the training set and that gives us enough breadth uh , uh , that {disfmarker} that{disfmarker} that the rest doesn't matter . Um , the other thing is , uh , this notion of training to uh {disfmarker} which I {disfmarker} I guess they 're starting to look at up there , {comment} training to somethingmore like articulatory features . Uh , and if you have something that 's just good for distinguishing different articulatory features that should just be good across , you know , a wide range of languages .PhD G: Yeah.Professor F: Uh , but {disfmarker} Yeah , so I don't th I know {disfmarker} unfortunately I don't {disfmarker} I see what you 're comi where you 're coming from , I think , but I don't think we can ignore it .PhD G: Sowe {disfmarker} we really have to do test with a real cross - language . I mean , tr for instance training on English and testing on Italian , or {disfmarker} Or we can train {disfmarker} or else , uh , can we train a neton , uh , a range of languages and {disfmarker} which can include the test {disfmarker} the test @ @ the target language ,Grad C: Test on an unseen .PhD G: or {disfmarker}Professor F: Yeah , so , um , there 's{disfmarker} there 's , uh {disfmarker} This is complex . So , ultimately , uh , as I was saying , I think it doesn't fit within their image that you switch nets based on language . Now , can you include , uh , the{disfmarker} the target language ?PhD G: Yeah .Professor F: Um , from a purist 's standpoint it 'd be nice not to because then you can say when {disfmarker} because surely someone is going to say at some point , "OK , so you put in the German and the Finnish .PhD G: Mmm .Professor F: Uh , now , what do you do , uh , when somebody has Portuguese ? " you know ? Um , and {disfmarker} Uh , however , you aren't{disfmarker} it isn't actually a constraint in this evaluation . So I would say if it looks like there 's a big difference to put it in , then we 'd make note of it , and then we probably put in the other , because we have somany other problems in trying to get things to work well here that {disfmarker} that , you know , it 's not so bad as long as we {disfmarker} we note it and say , " Look , we did do this " .PhD G: Mmm ?PhD A: And so ,ideally , what you 'd wanna do is you 'd wanna run it with and without the target language and the training set for a wide range of languages .Professor F: Uh . Yeah .PhD G: Yeah , perhaps . Yeah .PhD A: And that way


Lynne Neagle AM: Good afternoon, everyone. Welcome to the first virtual meeting of the Children, Young People and Education Committee. In accordance with Standing Order 34.19, I determine that the public areexcluded from the committee's meeting, in order to protect public health. In accordance with Standing Order 34.21, notice of this decision was included in the agenda for this meeting, which was published last Friday.This meeting is, however, being broadcast live on Senedd.tv, with all participants joining via video conference. A record of the proceedings will be published as usual. Aside from the procedural adaptation relating toconducting proceedings remotely, all other Standing Order requirements for committees remain in place. The meeting is bilingual, and simultaneous translation from Welsh to English is available. Can I remind allparticipants that the microphones will be controlled centrally, so there's no need to turn them on and off individually? Can I ask whether there are any declarations of interest, please? No. Okay. Thank you. Can I justthen, again, note for the record that, if, for any reason, I drop out of the meeting, the committee has agreed that Dawn Bowden AM will temporarily chair while I try to rejoin? Item 2, then, this afternoon is an evidencesession with the Welsh Government on the impact of the coronavirus epidemic on education in Wales. I'm very pleased to welcome Kirsty Williams AM, Minister for Education, Steve Davies, director of the educationdirectorate, and Huw Morris, who is group director, skills, higher education and lifelong learning. Can I welcome you all and thank you for attending? Minister, I understand you'd like to make a short openingstatement.Kirsty Williams AM: Thank you very much, Lynne. And indeed, if I could just begin by, once again, putting on the record my gratitude to everyone who is helping us get through this pandemic. There are avast number of people who are keeping our school hubs open, looking after vulnerable children, and the children of key workers. Because of them, and their efforts, those key workers are able to carry on their criticalroles in responding to COVID-19. I am extremely proud of the way that members of the school community have gone above and beyond. They have kept their schools open out of hours, over the weekends, on bankholidays, and Easter. And it is really heartening and humbling to see the way that they have responded to this crisis. And there are teachers, teaching assistants, and many others, who are helping our children and theirparents to keep learning at home. I know that home schooling isn't easy, so I want to say also thank you to parents and carers for their efforts at this time. By keeping their children at home, they are helping us to keeppeople safe, and reducing pressure on our education system, and on our NHS. Be in no doubt, we are facing many challenges because of this pandemic. My primary concern is, and always will be, the health andwell-being of our children, of our young people, and of all the staff in our education settings. And I am very grateful to everyone who is supporting us in these endeavours. Thank you very much—diolch yn fawr. And I'mnow happy to answer questions that members of the committee may have this afternoon.Lynne Neagle AM: Thank you very much, Minister. I'm sure that the committee echoes the heartfelt thanks you have just giventhen. The first questions we've got this afternoon are from Hefin David.Hefin David AM: Good afternoon, Minister. With regard to your five principles, which you've set out today, regarding when schools will reopen,they're very clear that they require a judgment from you. So could you outline when you think that schools might reopen?Kirsty Williams AM: Thank you, Hefin. I am very clear that schools will move to a newphase—because, already, schools are open in many settings; we will move to a new phase when it is safe to do so and when I have advice from the chief medical officer and the chief scientific officer that it is safe to doso. I have made very clear in my statement that that is not imminent. I know that in some cases there has been speculation that a return to normal could be with us quite shortly. I'm clear that a return to normal is notimminent, and therefore I'm not in a position to give a date as to when we will see more schools opening up to more children.Hefin David AM: Have you been given any indication at all by the chief medical officer as towhen, in the longer term, it might be?Kirsty Williams AM: No, I have not been given a date. What I have done today is publish the principles that will aid me in, as you said, me making a decision. So, clearly, we will berelying on the advice of our medical and scientific advisers, but the principles are very clear. Firstly, we will need to consider any decision to have more children returning to school in the context of the safety and thephysical and the emotional well-being of children and young people and the staff. Obviously, I can't make a decision regarding education in isolation. It will have to be taken in the context of the wider WelshGovernment response to dealing with this pandemic. Thirdly, it is absolutely crucial in making any decisions that we have clearly communicated that to parents and to staff, on the information that we have used toreach any decisions, to build confidence for parents and professionals, but also to give them time to plan. It will be impossible to move quickly to new ways of working. And we also have to look at—and it's beenparaphrased quite a lot today—if we are looking at certain groups of children accessing more education within a school setting, which groups they should be. And, finally, how do we operationalise that? How do we makethose settings as safe as they possibly can be, and how do we tackle some of the difficult challenges of everything from ensuring that we have adequate numbers of workforce available, to the very real questions abouthow you would do social distancing in the context of education, school transport issues, how you would avoid people gathering at the school gate, for instance? So, there are very practical issues that would need to beconsidered and thought through very, very carefully before we could return, before what we could see is a move from where we are now to the next phase of education, and new approaches to what schooling may looklike. But, again, I must be absolutely clear to you, members of the committee, and to people watching: it is not feasible, in this sense, that we would move from where we are now to what all of us would regard asnormal education and what the operation of schools looked like before the start of this pandemic.Hefin David AM: So, what is clear from what you've said is that it's going to be phased return. I would assume that wouldbe the most vulnerable—perhaps additional learning needs pupils would return first. Just reading some of the things that you've said today, can you answer that question? And can I also ask: you said that guidingprinciple No. 3 will be having the confidence of parents, staff and students, based on evidence and information, so they can plan ahead. What will that evidence and information be, and how will you know that you've gotthe confidence of parents to return?Kirsty Williams AM: Well, as I said, primarily, we will need to take a lead from our scientific and medical advisers. I want to also say that we are obviously working on a four-nationbasis and keeping in very close contact with my counterparts in Northern Ireland, Scotland and England. But we're also looking beyond the United Kingdom to approaches to education in the face of this pandemic.Members are aware that we as a nation are a member of the Atlantic Rim Collaboratory. So, recently I was able to talk to educationalists and Ministers in Iceland, other parts of Europe, North America, South Americaand Australia. So, we're also looking at best international evidence in this regard. And, clearly, we will need to be very clear, as today is an attempt to be very clear with parents and our teaching professionals, and theunions that represent them, about the basis of that evidence.Hefin David AM: And could I just ask, with regard to the principles, do they then apply to further education and universities?Kirsty Williams AM: Well, ofcourse, when we are discussing these challenges, we are doing that with our colleagues in both the school sector but also our colleagues in the FE sector, and we're in close contact with colleagues in higher education toshare thinking on these matters.Hefin David AM: But these principles don't apply in those circumstances; these are principles for schools only.Kirsty Williams AM: These principles are applying to both, and our work inthis area is applying to both schools and FE colleges. Clearly, universities, as independent institutions, we wouldn't be able to dictate to. But I want to be absolutely clear: we are working with representatives of the HEsector to include them in this work. And I have received, not assurances, but from discussions that I've had with Universities Wales and vice-chancellors, they are very keen to be kept apprised of these approaches,because they may well wish to implement something similar within their own institutions.Lynne Neagle AM: Okay. I've got a couple of supplementaries now; firstly, from Suzy Davies, and then I'm going to go to SiânGwenllian. Suzy. No, we can't hear Suzy. Suzy? No. I'll go to Siân, then, and then I'll come back to Suzy. Siân.Hefin David AM: Chair, I don't think my microphone is muted.Sian Gwenllian AM: Okay. I'll move on to myquestion to Kirsty Williams. Now, it is clear that any decisions that need to be taken on reopening schools would have to be made in the context of all of the other issues that the Welsh Government has to take intoaccount. And it is entirely clear that the approach of Government towards testing hasn't been sufficiently developed for us to even start to think about removing restrictions. So, wouldn't it be dangerous, if truth be told,to start to discuss reopening schools when we haven't had the necessary testing in place for the majority of the population? And doesn't it convey a mixed message that we're starting to relax some of these restrictionswhen, in reality, the restrictions are still in place and still need to be in place robustly?Kirsty Williams AM: First of all, thank you very much, Siân, for that important question. Can I be absolutely clear, and I thought Ihad been pretty clear in answering Hefin David, that we are not relaxing any of the restrictions with regard to education? As I said to Hefin, it is not imminent that we would see a further phase in the next stage ofeducation here in Wales. What I have done today is to provide clarity on the nature of the principles that I would use when coming to any discussion. It is the responsibility of me, as the Minister, and indeed of the widerGovernment, to begin to think about planning for the future. But I have been absolutely clear: we are not moving to an imminent change in how education is operating at the moment. And I'm also very, very clear thatshould we be given the opportunity to see more children in our schools, I will only do that when it is safe for me to do so, when I've been advised by the CMO that I am able to do that, and we have given sufficient timeand planning to the sector to respond. It is not going to be easy, and we will need to give them, as a sector, time to be able to address. But if I have not been clear enough, let me say it again: we are not relaxing anyissues around schools at present, nor is that imminent.Lynne Neagle AM: Thank you. Suzy, I think we can try going to you again now.Suzy Davies AM: Thank you. Minister, in your consideration of introducing a phasedreturn to school, in due course, have you taken into consideration how things like school absences are going to be managed? Because, regardless of the amount of good work you do on messaging, there will still besome families that don't realise that going back to school is for their particular family. Will there be a relaxation of, effectively, what we would call truancy rules? Or is that something that schools will be getting guidanceon much up-front?Kirsty Williams AM: Thank you, Suzy. As I said in my statement earlier today, returning to school will not be a return to normal, and in recognition of this, I've already made it clear that I will seek, inall opportunities, to reduce the burdens on school. That includes various data collection, the suspension of performance measures and removing the requirement to undertake literacy and numeracy testing, and, clearly,school attendance will want to be an important factor of that.Lynne Neagle AM: Okay. Thank you. I'm keen to go on now to talk about the current situation as being faced by our children and young people in schoolswith some questions from Siân Gwenllian. Siân.Sian Gwenllian AM: Since yesterday, the Welsh Government has started publishing data on the number of schools that are open, the number of children attending thoseschools, and the number of staff involved, and they have been making this information available as per capita of the population. On average, I think it's 1 per cent of the children of Wales that actually attend theselocations, and some 5 per cent of the staff. So, can you analyse those figures a little further? Can you tell us how many children, according to this data, are children of key workers, and how many are vulnerablechildren?Kirsty Williams AM: Thank you very much, Siân. As you quite rightly say, on average, we have 518 school hubs open each day, with up to 4,200 children attending. We have seen an increase in the number ofattendances since the start of what would have been the traditional summer term. We have approximately 5.6 per cent of the teaching population working in those hubs, and at present, 85 per cent of the children whoare attending are the children of key workers, the remainder being vulnerable children. So, we are now averaging 600 vulnerable children per day. These are small numbers, but we have seen an increase in thosenumbers since the start of what would have been the traditional summer term.Sian Gwenllian AM: Okay. I'm sure we'll return to that point a little later on. How much confidence do you therefore have that thearrangements are effective in terms of the safety of staff and children at these locations?Kirsty Williams AM: Thank you once again for that. The smooth operation of the hubs, with regard to health and safety, is, ofcourse, of paramount importance. What we have seen since schools closed for traditional statutory purposes and moving to their repurposed function—we have seen a change of pattern over time. So, following myannouncement on, I believe, 18 March, the week after, we saw a large number of settings open and operating. As local authorities have been able to understand the demand for those places—from critical workers andvulnerable children—we have seen more local authorities move to a hub model, and we have been able to publish guidance to local authorities on how issues around safe working in those hubs should be followed, andwe've been able to give guidance in that regard. Local authorities are asked by us to report any incidents where they are concerned about operation issues on the ground.Sian Gwenllian AM: As I mentioned earlier,testing is crucially important in dealing with this crisis. So, how many school staff have been tested for COVID because they may have experienced symptoms and so on? And how many of those have testedpositive?Kirsty Williams AM: My understanding from Public Health Wales is that 15 teachers have been tested for COVID-19, and I believe two of those results have come back as positive. Can I make it absolutely clear,the week before last, Welsh Government issued new guidance around who should be tested? I want to make it absolutely clear to those professionals working in our hubs, if they or a member of their family areexhibiting any of the symptoms, however mild, of COVID-19, they can and they should be tested.Sian Gwenllian AM: Okay. And the final question from me on this: how important is testing going to be in this nextphase, as you start to think about relaxing restrictions?Kirsty Williams AM: Obviously, the ability to be able to test, to trace and to quarantine will be critical to the next phase and will be a very, very important andsignificant building block in all aspects of the Government's work to respond to this pandemic.Lynne Neagle AM: Okay. Thank you, Minister, and thank you, Siân. We've got some questions now on the impact onparticular groups of children, from Dawn Bowden.Dawn Bowden AM: Thank you, Chair. Just following on from your answer to Siân Gwenllian earlier about the number of vulnerable children in school, what's being donespecifically to facilitate more of those children coming into a school setting or hub at the moment? I'm thinking about the 600 you've talked about, and I know, in one of my local authority areas of Merthyr, which is avery small authority, we're talking about the number of children identified as vulnerable running into thousands, not hundreds, and that's just in one authority. So, this is a particularly difficult issue to address, Iappreciate, but how are we going to get more of these children into the hubs?Kirsty Williams AM: Okay, Dawn. The first thing to say is that the issue of vulnerable children attending settings is one that is a challenge tonot just Wales, but also to my colleagues in Northern Ireland, Scotland and England. I'm pleased to say that we are working across Government departments—myself, obviously, and colleagues in education—withcolleagues in social services to have a cross-Government approach to these issues. I think the first thing to say is that these are complex messages, because the overriding public health message from our Governmenthas been to stay at home and children should be kept at home as much as possible, and to make sure that our hubs run smoothly, safely and effectively, we do need to limit the number of children who are attendingthose hubs. So, firstly, the fact that numbers are small is in some ways a success of our public health messages, because parents have been heeding those messages, but, of course, all of us will have concerns for somechildren who remain at home. So, I'm pleased to say that we have seen a doubling in the last week of the number of children. So, although numbers are small, they have doubled over the course of the last week. We'reworking with local authorities and they have assured us that children and young people with a social worker have been risk assessed on a multi-agency basis and are receiving support in a number of ways, and thatincludes having conversations about some of those children attending the hubs. They're also looking to support in other ways. Of course, some of our children who would be classed as vulnerable—and our definition of'vulnerable' is one that is shared between the systems in England and Wales—could be children with a statement of special educational needs. For some of those children who, perhaps, have very intense health needs,actually, staying at home is the appropriate thing for that child and that family to do, and we're looking to support families, and local authorities and local education systems are looking to support families, in a numberof ways. We also know that just because you don't have a social worker or a statement of special educational needs does not mean that a child may not be vulnerable, and schools are very aware of the needs of thosechildren and have been carrying out regular telephone check-ins where they can—if the age of the child is appropriate—just to keep in touch with those families and those individual children. But we will continue to workacross Government to encourage, where it is appropriate, children to attend settings, and, if it is not appropriate for children to be in a setting, that there is contact with those children and young people to ensure thatthey remain, and their families remain, supported.Dawn Bowden AM: Thank you, Minister. It's encouraging to hear you talk about the ongoing safeguarding of children that are at home and I assume, within that,appropriate referral mechanisms are still in place if teachers or anybody has any particular concern about a child. Similarly, with special educational needs, whereas some of those children benefit clearly from aone-to-one provision in a school, and they may not respond as well to remote working, or remote contact, with an SEN advisor, are you considering in any way any relaxation of the lockdown rule in particular for thosechildren in terms of them being able to access the support that they need for their particular educational needs?Kirsty Williams AM: Well, first of all, Dawn, you're absolutely right: my expectation is that schools shouldremain in contact with children and continue to identify vulnerable children, and schools should continue to refer children to children's services if they have any concerns, and that would also, of course, be the case for


Lynne Neagle AM: Good morning, everyone, and welcome to this morning's Children, Young People and Education Committee. We've received no apologies for absence. Can I ask Members who are present if they wishto declare any interests? Okay, thank you. Item 2 this morning is our final evidence session for our inquiry into targeted funding to improve educational outcomes. I'm very pleased to welcome Kirsty Williams AM,Cabinet Secretary for Education; Steve Davies, director of the education directorate; and Ruth Conway, deputy director, support for learners division. Welcome to all of you, and thank you for your attendance and alsofor the paper that you've provided in advance. If you're happy, we'll go straight into questions, and the first questions are from Llyr Gruffydd.Llyr Gruffydd AM: Bore da. I just want to start by asking some questionsaround the targeting of the pupil development grant because, clearly, we've had a lot of evidence around this apparent blurring of eligibility to an extent. I'm just wondering how comfortable you are that the money isbeing targeted appropriately because, clearly, it's being targeted more widely than just those eligible for free school meals, from some of the evidence we've had, but also that it seems to be predominantly focused onlow-attaining frees—pupils who are eligible for free school meals.Kirsty Williams AM: Thank you, Llyr. I think it's important to be absolutely clear that when it comes to individual interventions, those individualinterventions should only be targeted at those children who are eligible for free school meals. But in some cases, schools may use their PDG funding to provide a universal intervention, but we would want to—inchallenge advisers' discussions in schools—we'd want to have evidence that that universal intervention would have a disproportionate effect on the outcomes for children on free school meals. So, for instance, if I giveyou an example in your own region, Llyr: at Brynteg County Primary School in Wrexham, if you look at that primary school in Wrexham, their results for free-school-meal children at the end of their primary schoolperiod in school are equivalent to their non-free-school-meal counterparts. So, there is no differentiation in those results. One of the things that they've used their PDG for is to really focus on the concept of growthmindset in school. So, that's a universal thing that they've trained all the teachers in, but what we know is that that has a disproportionate effect on those children who are on free school meals. So, if you're familiarwith the concept of a growth mindset, it's about really challenging learners to think that, 'I can do things. If sometimes I fail, I pick myself up, I'm more resilient.' Now, that has been, as I said, trained to all the teachersin the school—it's an ethos for the whole school—but we have seen that the impact on the free-school-meal children has been even greater, and now they're at the same level. So, that's the important distinction.Individual intervention per child has to be targeted at those children who are eligible for free school meals, but sometimes a school will employ a whole-school approach to train their staff, for instance, and that, then,has to demonstrate it has a disproportionate effect on free school meals. So, growth mindset; it may be attachment disorder training for staff, for instance, where we know it's of benefit to everybody, but will haveparticular benefits for that cohort of students. With regard to more able and talented, you know, Llyr, that this is an area of concern for me, generally, within the Welsh education system; that we've not been particularlygood at identifying, supporting and driving attainment for those children. I'm absolutely clear that PDG needs to be used for those children who are eligible to drive potential, whatever the potential of that child is,including more able and talented. And again, I'll give you an example that has been seen as good practice in Pembrokeshire: a window on the world bus, again paid for by schools. I don't know if you're aware of it.LlyrGruffydd AM: We've heard about that.Kirsty Williams AM: Oh, you've heard about it; well, it's a really good example the window on the world. And, again, that's very much targeted at raising aspirations and givingchildren who are more able and talented, who are eligible for PDG, those experiences, and to really push them. So, yes, I'm absolutely clear that PDG shouldn't just be seen to be getting individuals to the average. Forthose children who are more able and talented, it should be used to support them—Llyr Gruffydd AM: And we all share those aspirations, I'm sure, and you pointed to examples of good practice, but of course, it's notuniversal, is it, so what I'm asking is: do you think that the guidance is sufficient as it is? Do you think that there's a great enough awareness of how the PDG should be used at the coalface? And also, are you confidentthat consortia and others have the measures in place to be able to demonstrate that it is being used properly?Kirsty Williams AM: I think, if we look at what Estyn has said about PDG, it does actually recognise that thePDG is being used to push more able and talented children, but as always with the system, Llyr, it's whether we can be sure that that is strategic and that it's happening across all of our schools. So, you're—LlyrGruffydd AM: But not just in relation to more able and talented, I'm referring to the eligibility and the targeting.Kirsty Williams AM: Oh, the eligibility. You'll be aware that, on the advice of Sir Alasdair, we haveemployed and appointed new PDG regional advisers, and I think their role is going to be absolutely crucial in spreading that good practice across the region, whether that's use of PDG for more able and talented, orensuring that PDG is used in the appropriate way. So, that's there to provide strategic overall advice. And obviously, we have been very clear with regional challenge advisers, in the relationship and the conversationsthey're having with individual schools, that they're really challenging their schools about the use of PDG, not just in terms of targeting, but the programmes, what the money is being spent on, whether there is anevidence base for that and whether we are clear on impact. So, I think the new regional advisers are going to be crucial in enabling us to ensure more consistent practice across the regions.Llyr Gruffydd AM: So, are youcontent that eligibility for free school meals is the best measure, really, of identifying which pupils to target?Kirsty Williams AM: Llyr, in the absence of anything better. I'll be the first person to say that maybe it's not asabsolutely focused, but in the absence of anything different to identify a proxy for need, I think it's probably the best that we've got at present. And we will continue to have discussions with local government aboutwhether there are different ways. We have to be mindful. Some of the policy levers in this area are out of my hands, so if we look at the roll-out of universal credit, for instance, we've got officials working very hard atthe moment to try and understand what universal credit is going to mean and where we are going to be able to identify relative need, going forward. We haven't had any additional resource as a result of this, but we'revery mindful that, potentially, this has an impact, going forward. And, officials are working all of the time, I must say, in conjunction with the department in England, to understand their thinking in this area so that weare in a position to make some decisions about what a notional eligibility for free school meals will look like going forward, but before I make any decisions, I want to assure everybody that there will be a full publicconsultation on that.Llyr Gruffydd AM: Okay. Finally for now, on this issue of once a year, in January, if you're eligible for free school meals, then you're in that group for that year. We've had some quite strong evidenceabout how difficult that makes longer term planning for a number of schools and we've also been pointed in the direction of what's happened in England with the Ever 6, and I'm just wondering whether you're giving anythought to maybe changing that a little bit.Kirsty Williams AM: Well, we're certainly giving thought to flexibility. In conversations with Alasdair, who is our independent adviser on this agenda, and individual schools,we're actively giving thought to greater flexibility and maybe longer term projections, so that schools know, for a number of years ahead, what their allocation will be. There are advantages to that system, because youcould give that flexibility, you could give that long-term approach, but then, how do you make that responsive if a school suddenly has more children? We do know that, actually, the number of free-school-meal pupils isdropping. But there can be changes, you know, regional working in areas of north Wales in tourism, or maybe in other areas at Christmas time, parents are able to get a period of work. So, how can we create a moreflexible system? We're actively looking at that at the moment. I wouldn't use it as an Ever 6 concept, but as an 'Ever 2' concept. We have looked at Ever 6, and I'm going to be absolutely blunt with you: to introduce anEver 6 concept for Wales would mean in the region of identifying an additional £40 million. I'm going to be absolutely straight and blunt with you: we're not in a position at the moment to be able to identify an additional£40 million to introduce an Ever 6. But issues around flexibility, certainly, are actively under consideration. In fact, we'll be having a discussion later on today about decisions, going forward, for the next two years.LlyrGruffydd AM: Thank you.Lynne Neagle AM: Darren on this.Darren Millar AM: It's just a very brief point in response to the £40 million price ticket that you just put on that. That's, of course, assuming that you maintainthe current level of PDG, yes? So, if you reduced the level of PDG slightly, but made it available to more individuals, if you like, via allocating it in a different way, then that £40 million price ticket wouldn't be there,would it?Kirsty Williams AM: I was asked a question about had I ever considered an Ever 6. We have looked at that, we've priced that up. I have to make decisions in the envelope of resources that are available to me.We could, indeed, change the way in which we allocate PDG money, but we have to do it within the envelope that is available to me, over £90 million. That's a significant level of investment, but, of course, as always,Darren, we could cut the amount per pupil, but that might have quite challenging swings in allocations. What we have done—because what I am clear on is that there was evidence to suggest that in the secondarysector, a great deal of PDG was being focused on years 10 and 11, especially year 11, in catch-up provision, and you'll be aware, because we've said this in evidence to the committee in the papers, we've set achallenge to secondary schools to say, 'Actually, the majority of your PDG allocation has to be used in key stage 3.' Now, we have to balance the needs, the moral hazard of turning round to children in years 10 and 11and saying, 'We're not going to provide catch-up opportunities for you,' because, clearly, those children need that support. But the evidence and the advice that we're receiving is: actually, strong focus on early years,primary and key stage 3, if we get that right, should negate the need for spending money on catch-up at years 10 and 11. That's why we, in our advice to local authorities and schools, say that we want to see evidencethat they're spending this money earlier on in a child's career, rather than just a scramble at year 11 to say, 'Right, we've got to get you through your exams.'Darren Millar AM: Okay, but have you actively considered,then, reducing the level you have?Kirsty Williams AM: We've—Ruth Conway: Sorry—I was just going to say that one of the things is looking at the scope of the definition, and I think it's about being more flexible withthe definition, rather than reducing the amount per head.Darren Millar AM: Okay. Thank you.Lynne Neagle AM: Thank you. If we can go on, then, to talk about some of the practical uses of the PDG, you write in yourwritten paper that 'the majority of schools are making well thought out and appropriate decisions' on how to use it. But Estyn reported that only two thirds of primary and secondary schools make effective use of thePDG. Given that we've had it now for six years, would you not have expected there to be a higher level of schools actually making good use of that funding?Kirsty Williams AM: Well, to flip it on its head, the vastmajority of schools, as identified by Estyn, are using this money to good effect. So, that's the way I like to see it—that the vast majority of schools are doing well. What Estyn has also indicated is the intrinsic link hereto leadership within individual schools, and as you'll be aware, leadership, improving capacity in leadership and developing leadership talent in the Welsh education system is a key priority for me in our national mission.Of course, that's being developed in a different work stream. I think what's fair to say is that the use of PDG is evolving over time. I think we are seeing, increasingly, more and more schools understanding how best todeploy that money for best effect for students. So, if we're honest, when PDG first started, I think, in some schools it was spent on investing in tracking of children, because they'd never thought about tracking thesechildren, they didn't have systems in place to look at the performance of these children, and to have a system in place. So we've moved now from spending money on the infrastructure around support for FSM childreninto actual inputs in terms of teaching and learning. We're also seeing from Estyn that, actually, in terms of money following the evidence of what we know works, Estyn says that PDG is probably the best example ofschools following tried and tested and evidence-based interventions to deploy the money. But clearly we want all of this money to be deployed as well as it can be, and again we come back to the decision I've made toappoint regional PDG advisers so that we can get that better consistency of approach. We are, in the discussions that I have with the regional consortia about how they challenge individual schools on usage, looking forvery clear evidence of schools using the Sutton Trust toolkit, and we could have a discussion about whether that's the right thing, because that's on my mind too. But we want to see schools demonstrating theirevidence base, and if they're not, if a school isn't doing that, okay, so demonstrate to us why you've made those decisions and, crucially, what are you doing as the school to judge whether that decision is actuallymaking a difference for your individual pupils. So, if you're moving away from tried and tested interventions, what we know works, if you're doing something different with your money, okay, you need to justify that andyou need to explain how you're going to demonstrate impact. But I think what we're seeing is increasing good practice in this area as the PDG develops and as our understanding of our school-to-school working in ourself-improving school system also develops. I think we're seeing better usage of the money year on year.Lynne Neagle AM: Thank you. Llyr on this.Llyr Gruffydd AM: You mentioned some schools will be moving fromthe tried-and-tested interventions, really, and I'm just wondering to what extent that evolution of use of PDG is being driven by cuts to core funding.Kirsty Williams AM: No, I don't think it's being driven by cuts to corefunding. I think there has been—. One of the biggest impacts of PDG has not been—well, I suppose it is the money in itself, because the money has concentrated the minds, hasn't it? So, one of the most importantthings that PDG has done is highlight the importance of this agenda within schools, and really raise this up in the thinking of leadership and senior management teams in our schools, and has driven a focus on scrutinyand accountability in the systems that are working with our schools. I think the changing use of PDG reflects the journeys that schools have been on, some of them from a very low base where this was not a priority forthem, to better understanding, and as research and as intelligence grows over time in this area, both in Wales and outside of Wales, schools are increasingly learning to use that evidence to tailor approaches in theirschools.Llyr Gruffydd AM: So you wouldn't accept at all that some of this money's being used to paper over some funding cracks from elsewhere. Because the unions and some others have told us that, whether we likeit or not, there is some of that going on.Kirsty Williams AM: As I said, Llyr, we're very clear about the usage that this money can be spent on in terms of individuals or universal application within schools, and that formsan important part of the checks and balances that we have in our system. Can we continue to improve, and ensure that more and more of our schools are employing best practice? Yes, we can, and as I've said, we'vetaken steps to put in place the infrastructure to support that.Lynne Neagle AM: Thank you. Mark's questions are next.Mark Reckless AM: Cabinet Secretary, how would you assess the impact of PDG on attendance andhopefully subsequent engagement with education from children who have free school meals?Kirsty Williams AM: I think what's important to note is that, as Estyn have themselves said, over the period of the lastinspection report, we have seen improvements in attendance, but I do think we need to, again, look at how PDG can support this particular agenda. And as always in the Welsh education system, there are someexcellent examples of how schools use the money to address this. Ysgol y Preseli in Pembrokeshire is a very good example of how they've deployed their money. Forgive me; I can't off the top of my head remember thename of the primary school I visited, again in north Wales, where the school has proactively used this money, and they actually send teaching assistants out of school in the morning before the start of the school day,and they actually have a walking bus. They call at homes for children, and they walk the children to the breakfast club. So, they're proactively going out into the community and making sure that those children are inthe classrooms, because the teacher said, 'We recognised we had a problem with attendance. We tried a variety of means of improving that, but in the end we have taken this quite bold step—we actually send the staffout and they create that walking bus, and they walk the children into school'. They say that they know that, for some of those children, because of the difficult circumstances they and their families are living in, theyprobably wouldn't be in school if it wasn't for that proactive approach. So, we're looking again at what more we can do to support this particular agenda in terms of improving attendance, because although, again, thereare examples of good practice, there is still a gap between the attendance of free-school-meal pupils and non-free-school-meal pupils. And, of course, we can have the best curriculum in the world with reallyhigh-quality teaching, but unless the children are in the classes then we're not going to make the difference for them. Whilst that differential exists, then it's going to be hard to close the attainment gap for thosechildren.Mark Reckless AM: I was actually quite shocked just reading in advance of this meeting that the proportion attending 95 per cent or more, who have pretty full attendance, was only 35 per cent forfree-school-meal children at level 4, compared to 60 per cent for non-free-school-meal pupils. It still is an extraordinary difference. My colleague here showed me, I think, last week, a graph showing the link betweenattendance and attainment, in particular. When people were absent, a lot of the—. As I'm sure you're aware, there's a huge connection. What more can PDG do to deal with it? In the example you give I can see how aschool with an awful lot of free-school-meal children could do that, but a lot of the free-school-meal children are actually in schools that don't have that high a proportion of free school meals, where it would be muchmore challenging to bring in that type of initiative.Kirsty Williams AM: Yes, indeed, and I think it gets more challenging the older the children get. I think it's more difficult to find interventions that are successful higherup, so key stage 4. So, you can do a walking bus with little ones, can't you, but I don't suppose your average 15 or 16-year-old is going to take very kindly to that. So, you do need a different approach to that. Butagain, we see in Ysgol y Preseli the employment of staff to directly work with families of older children to reinforce the messages around, as you quite rightly say, the linkage between attendance and attainment, andreally work with individual families to understand the barriers to attendance: what's going on in the family that is preventing that child from going to school, and what more can the school do to address those situations.