Project Manager: Okay , so now we are on the conceptual design meeting . {vocalsound} Uh y getting close to the lastMarketing: Mm-hmm .Project Manager: is the penultim meeting . {vocalsound}{vocalsound}Marketing: {vocalsound}User Interface: How was lunch ? {vocalsound}Project Manager: {vocalsound} Mm great . {vocalsound}Marketing: {vocalsound} Thanks {vocalsound}Industrial Designer:{vocalsound} {vocalsound} {vocalsound}Marketing: Don't be sarcastic . {vocalsound} Mark . {vocalsound}Project Manager: So {vocalsound} um I will again do the secretary part uh we will have three presentationfirst um uh the industrial design , first Rama then Mark and then Sammy .Marketing: Uh Rama .Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Ramaro .Project Manager: Um um we have to take a decision on the control{disfmarker} remote control concepts and we have forty minutes .User Interface: Mm .Project Manager: So what we want to {disfmarker} the decision we want to take on this meeting are on the um first on thecomponent concept , so what kind of energy we use uh what kind of chip on print and one ki kind of case . And also on user interface concept uh what kind of interface we use and if there is some supplements . And atthe end um Sammy will give um {vocalsound} a trend watching on what he's {disfmarker} he's been doing . It's {disfmarker} So , let's go . First with Rama . Participant two .Industrial Designer: Yeah , participant two .Component .Project Manager: Mm-hmm . {vocalsound}Industrial Designer: Yep . So we're to mainly design f mainly need to know which components we'll use for energy , and the material and interface . For energythere are maybe two or three possibilities . First one , we can use simple battery , or we can use {vocalsound} traditional solar cells or {disfmarker} mm and the material we can have plastic , rubber which is good forthis R_S_A_Marketing: Ah .Industrial Designer: and then uh titanium , which can be {disfmarker} which have very good look an and then interface we're to use push buttons or liquid crystal d L_C_D_ display . And wecan use some {gap} , moving {gap} kind of thing . So , as we discussed before , we need to {disfmarker} we would like to have some speech recognition s chip in our remote control . So this can be simple kind ofprogrammable chip and {disfmarker} which can use microphone {gap} sensors . And we also want to look at our remote control , so . Still we are looking for possible uh technical uh specifications and how w easy wecan do and within our pri range , like we're to {disfmarker} in our twelve Euros or around that . So we are looking for simple devices or simple technology to do the location of remote control in a room or in a house.Project Manager: Mm-hmm , okay .Industrial Designer: So uh we discussed an {disfmarker} {vocalsound} Excuse me . So we would like to propose battery instead of solar cells and it would be problematic uh to haveenough energy with the solar cellsMarketing: Mm-hmm .Industrial Designer: and so we would like to just use simple battery . And also we want to go for titanium design instead of rubber or {disfmarker} and well theproblem is with this design we found that we can't use double-curved shapes .Marketing: What is a double-curved shape ?Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Like you can have two curves .Marketing: Uh-huh .UserInterface: Why ?Industrial Designer: Uh it's {disfmarker} I think in manufacturing I guess it's problematic . So , we want to go for simple push buttons because it need a simple chip and it's really lesser {disfmarker} uhre really less expensive compared to L_C_D_Marketing: {vocalsound}Industrial Designer: which are uh which needs advanced chip technology and it's more expensive ,User Interface: Mm-hmm .Industrial Designer:since we want to put some other features such as speech recognitionMarketing: {vocalsound}Industrial Designer: we want to reduce uh cost .Project Manager: {vocalsound} Um I want to know why it b uh just uh sorrybut for the point before uh why not the rubber , if it is something that it seems to be light .Marketing: The cost .Industrial Designer: Uh {disfmarker} Uh {disfmarker} And also like in {disfmarker} if you put a {gap} it'sbe difficult to do all the moulding of buttons and these thingsProject Manager: Okay . You m titanium it's more uh {disfmarker}Industrial Designer: and {disfmarker} Yeah .User Interface: W we can use something likeyou know {vocalsound} the whole body's titanium but there are some rubber or I dunno some rubber parts likeIndustrial Designer: Yeah .Marketing: Mm like this ?Project Manager: Yes so mm {disfmarker}UserInterface: to make it feel better and to you know {disfmarker}Industrial Designer: Like in cell phones recentlyProject Manager: Uh-huh .User Interface: {vocalsound} Yeah . Yeah .Industrial Designer: these{disfmarker} you can {gap} with the rubber in four directions and {disfmarker}Marketing: Mm-hmm .Project Manager: Okay . {gap}Industrial Designer: yeah . But full assembly {disfmarker} We'll use mainly fortitanium {gap}Project Manager: Okay .Industrial Designer: rubber is expensiveProject Manager: Okay .Industrial Designer: and also it's bit difficult to do all the shapes uh .Project Manager: Okay .Industrial Designer:And this push buttonsProject Manager: Uh yeah soIndustrial Designer: {disfmarker} we we would like to use push buttons instead of L_C_D_s and so we want to mo I mean we're {gap} we want to put speechrecognition so we want to reduce price on this technology and so that we can have enough space or enough moneyProject Manager: Okay , s so simple button and uh speech recognition for the more complicated.Industrial Designer: for {disfmarker} S SMarketing: Speech {disfmarker}Industrial Designer: Y yeah we have simple buttons and speech recognition technology ,User Interface: Mm-hmm .Project Manager: Okay .UserInterface: Okay , and still we have {disfmarker}Industrial Designer: so {disfmarker}User Interface: mm can we still include the L_ L_S_D_ display ?Marketing: L_C_D_ .User Interface: L_C_D_ yeah L_C_D_ .IndustrialDesigner: Uh lMarketing: Seems not , it's either L_C_D_ or push-button .Industrial Designer: So uhUser Interface: No ,Industrial Designer: it's like a {disfmarker}User Interface: it's not gonna be a t no touchable butstill like a source of information or source for menus .Marketing: Ah .Industrial Designer: Yeah maybe maybe we can see depending on how we'll come up with our full design then if we have enough money or like forand {disfmarker}User Interface: Okay , so let's try it , let's tIndustrial Designer: because the speech recognition technology will take at least five Euros or {gap} or something so we want to reduce the cost ondisplayMarketing: {gap} The L_C_D_ would {disfmarker}Industrial Designer: or this interMarketing: The display would only be display and not uh touch sensitive you mean .User Interface: Yeah , yeah , it's it's notgonna be a touch pad , uh just a display for giving you information .Marketing: Just uh for output , yeah .Industrial Designer: Ok Yeah , that can we we can consider ,Marketing: Yeah .Project Manager: {vocalsound}Mm-hmm .Industrial Designer: because like it won't take much money I guess ,User Interface: Mm-hmm .Industrial Designer: because {disfmarker}Project Manager: Okay .Industrial Designer: Okay , yep .ProjectManager: {gap} Mm .Industrial Designer: You have any further questions or ?Marketing: I guess no um . So the batteries uh are going to be very light .Industrial Designer: Yeah . Yeah , we're to go for li and now Ithink we have many options in the market so we can go for small nickel or alkaline batteriesMarketing: Okay .User Interface: Mm-hmm . Mm-hmm .Industrial Designer: for really light batteries and with uh good price.Marketing: So this device on n that can be used for speech recognition could also be used for just uh the finding it basically , instead of clapping why not just be {disfmarker} ask .Industrial Designer: Yeah , that's{disfmarker} then the the one thing we want to know is like because remote control is used for like in the household so it it it will be it {disfmarker} m maybe at least five , six people want to use it so so how to uh uhhow to define our re speech recognitionMarketing: Mm-hmm .Industrial Designer: whether we want to do s speaker independent or speaker dependent . If we're going for more speaker independent then it would be likeagain cumbersome and we need really m more technologyProject Manager: Okay ,Industrial Designer: and so {disfmarker}Project Manager: for the location . Hmm .Industrial Designer: Yeah , if if everybody in thehouse n {gap} to locate then we're to go for some speaker independent technology or something .Marketing: Okay . {vocalsound}Project Manager: Okay . So let's now go to the {disfmarker} you don't have morequestion ?Industrial Designer: {gap}Marketing: No , it's okay .Project Manager: Um mm thank you mm .User Interface: No more questions .Industrial Designer: Yep . Thank you .Marketing: Puts less of constraint onwhat we can doProject Manager: Yeah .User Interface: Mm yeah , yeah .Marketing: butIndustrial Designer: Yeah .Marketing: it's always like that . We have dreams and the {disfmarker} in the end we find out that it'snot feasible . {vocalsound}Project Manager: Yeah , but {disfmarker} mm .Industrial Designer: Oh . We have uh some limitations {gap} . {vocalsound}Marketing: Anyway . {vocalsound} Yeah .User Interface: But stilluh L_S_D_'s already quite nice ,Marketing: L_C_D_ .Project Manager: {vocalsound} Okay . {vocalsound}User Interface: L_C_ {vocalsound}Marketing: L_S_D_ is something else ,Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}{vocalsound}Marketing: and it's quite nice as well . {vocalsound}User Interface: I'm an artist , sorry . {vocalsound}Marketing: So ,Project Manager: Um {vocalsound} yeah .User Interface: So uh , that's not{disfmarker}Marketing: go on uh artist . {vocalsound}User Interface: I hope that's not too much .Project Manager: Now let's talk about uh interface .User Interface: Okay . {vocalsound} Uh participant number three.Project Manager: Three .Industrial Designer: Three .User Interface: {vocalsound} UhProject Manager: Which one ? {vocalsound}Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}Marketing: Hmm . {vocalsound}User Interface: mmmm uh have a look at this {disfmarker}Project Manager: {vocalsound}Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}User Interface: no it's {disfmarker} yeah .Project Manager: {vocalsound} Okay .User Interface: {gap} Uh so theconcept of the interface . Generally I developed quite a broad concept not only for the interface , but for possible instruction or user's manual and uh all the complex things that come together with your T_V_ andremote controls . So let's start with this . We got our perfect remote control with a lot of buttonsMarketing: {vocalsound} {vocalsound} {vocalsound}User Interface: and uh we got explanation for every buttonIndustrialDesigner: {vocalsound}User Interface: and you can use your time and uh it will take i some days to learn all this buttons and um the L_C_D_ is going to be somewhere here and uh go back button , I don't know reallywhere it is , maybe one of this buttons , and um power on and off mm I I don't rememberProject Manager: {vocalsound} Mm .Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} {vocalsound}Marketing: {vocalsound}User Interface: souh it it it should be maybe this button is power on and off ? Or no {gap} ? I can see nothing . So that's our concept . It's called the millennium remote control .Project Manager: {vocalsound}Marketing: Let's changemillenniums . {vocalsound}Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} SoUser Interface: Yeah .Industrial Designer: maybe you can use {gap} in the end and {disfmarker} {vocalsound}Marketing: {gap} doesn't make sense .This is very {vocalsound} ugly .User Interface: Really ? {vocalsound}Project Manager: {vocalsound}User Interface: I thought you like it . Ah okayMarketing: Oh no ,User Interface: just press the button , please uh .{vocalsound}Marketing: too much concept .Project Manager: No .Marketing: Ah .Industrial Designer: Uh {disfmarker}Marketing: {vocalsound} {vocalsound}User Interface: Yeah , we will not use this . We will not usethis .Project Manager: {vocalsound}User Interface: But instead of this I will devise {disfmarker} That's our concept .Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}Marketing: Ah , back today . {vocalsound}Industrial Designer:{vocalsound}User Interface: And it's got just few buttons , quite low looking , and all this stuff we already we already discussed .Project Manager: Mm-hmm . 'Kay .User Interface: And uh what will people say ? They'llsay it's perfect . Or what will say ? Uh they will say it's splendid . And uh e everyone will say I'll buy it .Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}Marketing: {vocalsound}Project Manager: Mm-hmm .Marketing: {gap} Do youthink it can come in several colours ?User Interface: And everyone's gonna be satisfied .Marketing: Or did the {disfmarker}User Interface: {vocalsound} I would make a backlight of the L_C_D_ screen with differentcolours .Marketing: Um but not the case .User Interface: Not the case .Marketing: Uh the case would only be in that uh aluminium uh titanium stuff ,User Interface: Yeah .Marketing: like {disfmarker}IndustrialDesigner: Mm .Project Manager: Because apparently from your survey people like colours , no ?Industrial Designer: Yeah .Marketing: Yeah , well they like uh something which is uh {disfmarker}User Interface: Okay ,so let's remember there's a Nokia phone which changeable panels .Marketing: Mm yeah , okay ,User Interface: Do you like it ?Marketing: so that would be the option . I don't know I don't have a Nokia phone ,ProjectManager: {vocalsound}Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} But it's uh {disfmarker}Marketing: but I don't use that but again , uh I might {disfmarker}User Interface: That's why you don't have it . That's why ,Marketing:Yeah ,User Interface: 'cause it's nasty . {vocalsound}Marketing: bu but {disfmarker} {vocalsound}Project Manager: {vocalsound}Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} But it would be expensive , no ? If you use colourL_C_D_ .User Interface: No .Industrial Designer: Uh instead of that maybe we can change the colour of the assembler .Marketing: Mm-hmm .Industrial Designer: Maybe we can just {disfmarker} if users want morecolours they can pay more money to get this uh the shapes and they can have different assembly .User Interface: Um , I am here .Project Manager: Okay .Industrial Designer: So users have different {disfmarker} Imean they have their own interests , colour interests and so {disfmarker}Project Manager: So ?User Interface: Mm-hmm .Industrial Designer: So we can just {disfmarker} if they want they can just pay another twoEuro .Project Manager: Uh-huh , okay , soUser Interface: 'Kay .Project Manager: you you propose something with option i that increase the price if we {disfmarker} if you want o more colours {vocalsound} on L_C_D_,Industrial Designer: Yeah . Yeah yeah yes . If they want like uh {disfmarker} so that we can {disfmarker} yeah .Marketing: Kind of upgradable uh {vocalsound} remote control .Project Manager: yeah .IndustrialDesigner: Yeah .Project Manager: Okay .Marketing: Wow , wow .Industrial Designer: Just they'll get few more things and few more colours .User Interface: Okay , what uh {disfmarker} there's one more decisi uh onemore solution in fact , um {vocalsound} 'cause there are some some paints that can change colour according to where they are , like they can reflect different colours depending on what is around , like what colour isaround , and depending on the temperature ,Industrial Designer: Lights , yeah .Marketing: Mm .Project Manager: And thermodynamic also . Mm-hmm .Industrial Designer: Yeah .Marketing: Like a chameleon .ProjectManager: Mm-hmm .User Interface: yeah .Industrial Designer: Yeah yeah .User Interface: We can make it in fact .Project Manager: Yeah but that's maybe mo too much expensive , yeah .User Interface: If if if the{disfmarker}Industrial Designer: Mm .User Interface: okay .Marketing: Mm-hmm .Project Manager: But uh it can be in uh maybe in an {disfmarker} a gradable version ,User Interface: Mm-hmm , mm-hmm ,ProjectManager: but {disfmarker}Industrial Designer: Yeah .User Interface: so {disfmarker}Marketing: Because uh I think there are two kinds of people . Those for which the remote control is uh is to be uh something usefuluh I'm going to talk about this later but {disfmarker} and those for which is something that that that uh is uh specific to them so it it's like a signature . My remote control is pink . Nobody else than me has a pinkremote control .Project Manager: Mm-hmm .User Interface: Uh-huh .Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}Marketing: {vocalsound} And that makes me special .Project Manager: OkayMarketing: {vocalsound}ProjectManager: and you think that we don't have to make to make them pay more because of {vocalsound} uh o or this is {disfmarker}Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}Marketing: {vocalsound} I think I think they would beready p ready to pay more for that .Project Manager: Okay , soMarketing: Those who wanted to have it pink .Project Manager: so {vocalsound} i it's not uh a s base serviceIndustrial Designer: Uh{disfmarker}Marketing: No mm no .Project Manager: it's a {disfmarker}User Interface: So ,Industrial Designer: Mm .User Interface: {gap} be an option ,Project Manager: Mm .User Interface: yeah .Marketing: It mightbe optional , yeah .Project Manager: Okay .Industrial Designer: But those people will be really few , no ? So like we can {gap} those {disfmarker}Marketing: The the young people the young people want to be differentfrom their friends .Industrial Designer: Ah .Marketing: Although similar but have something just slightly better . Pink {vocalsound}Project Manager: Mm-hmm .Industrial Designer: Yeah .Project Manager: So msoIndustrial Designer: Mm . {vocalsound}Project Manager: maybe that's {disfmarker} {vocalsound} if that it's a selling point maybe it has to be the base .User Interface: {vocalsound} Yeah , yeah ,Marketing: Mm .Yeah .User Interface: yeah . But you know if you want to be different you just take your remote control with you all the time .Project Manager: {vocalsound} And you'll be different .User Interface: {vocalsound} And itmakes you different ,Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}Marketing: Yeah , yeah .User Interface: you know ?Marketing: You always have your remote .Project Manager: {vocalsound} Uh in the train uh , hello uh no .{vocalsound} Want to change my neighbour .User Interface: Anyone has their remote controls here ?Marketing: Oh , you don't ? {vocalsound} Yeah . You don't have your remo {vocalsound}User Interface: No ?{vocalsound}Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}Marketing: Wh you you know like for instance take the iPod . It's a kind of remote control . {vocalsound} Uh it's whiteUser Interface: Mm-hmm .Marketing: and it's sowhite that you see it from any anywhere .Project Manager: Mm .Marketing: It has this distinctive look and feel and look {gap} which people seems to like {vocalsound}User Interface: Okay .Marketing: just because it's{vocalsound} a colour that we don't usually see in a remote control . White .Project Manager: Mm-hmm .User Interface: Uh-huh , uh-huh . Could we integrate something into our remote control , something like light?Marketing: Seems important .Industrial Designer: Hmm .User Interface: That they can use it in darkness , like . Hand light ,Marketing: Mm {gap} glow in the dark ,Industrial Designer: {gap}Project Manager:{vocalsound}User Interface: yeah .Industrial Designer: YeahMarketing: so {disfmarker}Industrial Designer: maybe like the infrared like we can put some radium chips or somethingMarketing: {vocalsound}UserInterface: {vocalsound} Mm-hmm .Industrial Designer: so that like {disfmarker} at least um {disfmarker}Project Manager: Iradium ? {vocalsound}Industrial Designer: yeah .User Interface: {vocalsound} Okay . Okay.Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} {gap} {vocalsound} Yeah ,Marketing: {vocalsound}Project Manager: Ah sorry . Mm .Industrial Designer: that {disfmarker}Project Manager: {vocalsound} Okay . So mm{disfmarker}User Interface: Okay . S well ,Marketing: Okay .User Interface: let's go on maybe with the presentation .Marketing: Yeah . Uh-huh , yeah sure . {vocalsound}Project Manager: Mm-hmm .{vocalsound}User Interface: And um the remote control's going to be smartIndustrial Designer: Oh .User Interface: but how smart should it be to not to complicate things too much ?Project Manager: {vocalsound}UserInterface: And uhIndustrial Designer: {vocalsound}User Interface: I dunnoMarketing: {vocalsound}User Interface: that's a question to you and to mm to {disfmarker}Marketing: Well so I heard that uh it seems that


Grad A: Hey , you 're not supposed to be drinking in here dude .Grad D: OK .Grad A: Do we have to read them that slowly ? OK . Sounded like a robot . Um , this is tGrad C: OK .Grad A: When you read the numbers itkind of reminded me of beat poetry .Grad D: I tried to go for the EE Cummings sort of feeling , but {disfmarker}Grad A: Three three six zero zero . Four two zero zero one seven . That 's what I think of when I think ofbeat poetry .Grad C: Beat poetry .Grad A: You ever seen " So I married an axe murderer " ?Grad C: Uh parts of it .Grad D: Mm - hmm .Grad A: There 's a part wh there 's parts when he 's doing beat poetry .Grad C: Ohyeah ?Grad A: And he talks like that . That 's why I thi That uh probably is why I think of it that way .Grad D: Hmm . No , I didn't see that movie . Who did {disfmarker} who made that ?Grad A: Mike Meyers is the guy.Grad D: Oh . OK .Grad A: It - it 's his uh {disfmarker} it 's his cute romantic comedy . That 's {disfmarker} that 's {disfmarker} That 's his cute romantic comedy , yeah . The other thing that 's real funny , I 'll spoil itfor you . is when he 's {disfmarker} he works in a coffee shop , in San Francisco , and uh he 's sitting there on this couch and they bring him this massive cup of espresso , and he 's like " excuse me I ordered the largeespresso ? "Grad D: Uh . We 're having , {vocalsound} a tiramisu tasting contest this weekend .Grad A: Wait {disfmarker} do are y So you 're trying to decide who 's the best taster of tiramisu ?Grad D: No ? Um . Therewas a {disfmarker} a {disfmarker} a fierce argument that broke out over whose tiramisu might be the best and so we decided to have a contest where those people who claim to make good tiramisu make them ,GradA: Ah .Grad D: and then we got a panel of impartial judges that will taste {disfmarker} do a blind taste {vocalsound} and then vote .Grad A: Hmm .Grad D: Should be fun .Grad A: Seems like {disfmarker} Seems likeyou could put a s magic special ingredient in , so that everyone know which one was yours . Then , if you were to bribe them , you could uh {disfmarker}Grad D: Mm - hmm . Well , I was thinking if um {disfmarker} yyou guys have plans for Sunday ? We 're {disfmarker} we 're not {disfmarker} it 's probably going to be this Sunday , but um we 're sort of working with the weather here because we also want to combine it with somebarbecue activity where we just fire it up and what {disfmarker} whoever brings whatever you know , can throw it on there . So only the tiramisu is free , nothing else .Grad A: Well , I 'm going back to visit my parentsthis weekend , so , I 'll be out of town .Grad D: So you 're going to the west Bay then ? No ,Grad A: No , the South Bay ,Grad D: south Bay ?Grad A: yeah .Grad D: South Bay .Grad C: Well , I should be free , so .GradD: OK , I 'll let you know .Grad C: OK .Grad A: We are . Is Nancy s uh gonna show up ? Mmm . Wonder if these things ever emit a very , like , piercing screech right in your ear ?Grad D: They are gonna get morecomfortable headsets . They already ordered them . OK .Grad C: Uh {disfmarker}Grad D: Let 's get started . The uh {disfmarker} Should I go first , with the uh , um , data . Can I have the remote {vocalsound} control. Thank you . OK . So . On Friday we had our wizard test data test and um {vocalsound} these are some of the results . This was the introduction . I actually uh , even though Liz was uh kind enough to offer to be thefirst subject , I sort of felt that she knew too much , so I asked uh Litonya . just on the spur of the moment , and she was uh kind enough to uh serve as the first subject .Professor B: Mm - hmm .Grad D: So , this iswhat she saw as part of {disfmarker} as uh for instr introduction , this is what she had to read {pause} aloud . Uh , that was really difficult for her and uh {disfmarker}Grad C: Because of l all the names , you mean?Grad D: The names and um this was the uh first three tasks she had to {disfmarker} to master after she called the system , and um then of course the system broke down , and those were the l uh uh I should say thesystem was supposed to break down and then um these were the remaining three tasks that she was going to solve , with a human {disfmarker} Um . There are {disfmarker} here are uh the results . Mmm . And I willnot {disfmarker} We will skip the reading now . D Um . And um . The reading was five minutes , exactly . And now comes the {disfmarker} This is the phone - in phase of {disfmarker}Grad C: Wait , can I {disfmarker}I have a question . So . So there 's no system , right ? Like , there was a wizard for both uh {disfmarker} both parts , is this right ?Grad D: Yeah . It was bo it both times the same person .Grad C: OK .Grad D: One time, pretending to be a system , one time , to {disfmarker} pretending to be a human , which is actually not pretending .Grad C: OK . And she didn't {disfmarker}Grad D: I should {disfmarker}Grad C: I mean . Well . Isn'tthis kind of obvious when it says " OK now you 're talking to a human " and then the human has the same voice ?Grad D: No no no . We u Wait . OK , good question , but uh you {disfmarker} you just wait and see.Grad C: OK .Grad D: It 's {disfmarker} You 're gonna l learn . And um the wizard sometimes will not be audible , Because she was actually {disfmarker} they {disfmarker} there was some uh lapse in the um wireless ,we have to move her closer .Grad A: Is she mispronouncing " Anlage " ? Is it " Anlaga " or " Anlunga "Grad D: They 're mispronouncing everything ,Grad A: OK .Grad D: but it 's {disfmarker} This is the system breakingdown , actually . " Did I call Europe ? " So , this is it . Well , if we {disfmarker} we umProfessor B: So , are {disfmarker} are you trying to record this meeting ?Grad D: There was a strange reflex . I have a headache . I'm really sort of out of it . OK , the uh lessons learned . The reading needs to be shorter . Five minutes is just too long . Um , that was already anticipated by some people suggested that if we just have bullets here ,they 're gonna not {disfmarker} they 're {disfmarker} subjects are probably not gonna {disfmarker} going to follow the order . And uh she did not .Grad C: Really ?Grad D: She {disfmarker} No .Grad C: Oh , it 'ssurprising .Grad D: She {disfmarker} she jumped around quite a bit .Professor B: S so if you just number them " one " , " two " , " three " it 'sGrad D: Yeah , and make it sort of clear in the uh {disfmarker}Professor B:OK . Right .Grad D: Um . We need to {disfmarker} So that 's one thing . And we need a better introduction for the wizard . That is something that Fey actually thought of a {disfmarker} in the last second that sh thesystem should introduce itself , when it 's called .Professor B: Mm - hmm . True .Grad D: And um , um , another suggestion , by Liz , was that we uh , through subjects , switch the tasks . So when {disfmarker} whenthey have task - one with the computer , the next person should have task - one with a human , and so forth .Professor B: Mm - hmm .Grad D: So we get nice um data for that . Um , we have to refine the tasks moreand more , which of course we haven't done at all , so far , in order to avoid this rephrasing , so where , even though w we don't tell the person " ask {pause} blah - blah - blah - blah - blah " they still try , or at leastLitonya tried to um repeat as much of that text as possible .Grad C: Say exactly what 's on there ? Yeah .Grad D: And uh my suggestion is of course we {disfmarker} we keep the wizard , because I think she did awonderful job ,Professor B: Great .Grad D: in the sense that she responded quite nicely to things that were not asked for , " How much is a t a bus ticket and a transfer " so this is gonna happen all the time , we d youcan never be sure .Professor B: Mm - hmm .Grad D: Um . Johno pointed out that uh we have maybe a grammatical gender problem there with wizard .Grad A: Yes .Grad D: So um .Grad A: I wasn't {disfmarker} wasn'tsure whether wizard was the correct term for {pause} uh " not a man " .Grad C: There 's no female equivalent of {disfmarker}Grad D: But uh {disfmarker}Grad A: Are you sure ?Grad C: No , I don't know .Professor B:Right .Grad C: Not that I know of .Grad D: Well , there is witch and warlock ,Grad A: Yeah , that 's so @ @ .Professor B: Right .Grad C: Yeah , that 's what I was thinking , but {disfmarker}Grad D: and uh{disfmarker}Professor B: Right . Uh .Grad D: OK . And um {disfmarker} So , some {disfmarker} some work needs to be done , but I think we can uh {disfmarker} And this , and {disfmarker} in case no {disfmarker}you hadn't seen it , this is what Litonya looked at during the uh {disfmarker} um while taking the {disfmarker} while partaking in the data collection .Grad C: Ah .Professor B: OK , great . So {pause} first of all , I agreethat um we should hire Fey , and start paying her . Probably pay for the time she 's put in as well . Um , do you know exactly how to do that , or is uh Lila {disfmarker} I mean , you know what exactly do we do to{disfmarker} to put her on the payroll in some way ?Grad D: I 'm completely clueless , but I 'm willing to learn .Professor B: OK . Well , you 'll have to . Right . So anyway , umGrad D: NProfessor B: So why don't youuh ask Lila and see what she says about you know exactly what we do for someone in thGrad D: Student - type worker ,Professor B: Well , yeah she 's un she 's not a {disfmarker} a student ,Grad D: or {disfmarker}?Professor B: she just graduated but anyway .Grad D: Hmm .Professor B: So i if {disfmarker} Yeah , I agree , she sounded fine , she a actually was {pause} uh , more uh , present and stuff than {disfmarker} than shewas in conversation , so she did a better job than I would have guessed from just talking to her .Grad D: Yeah .Professor B: So I think that 's great .Grad D: This is sort of what I gave her , so this is for example h howto get to the student prison ,Professor B: Yeah .Grad D: and I didn't even spell it out here and in some cases I {disfmarker} I spelled it out a little bit um more thoroughly ,Professor B: Right .Grad D: this is theinformation on {disfmarker} on the low sunken castle , and the amphitheater that never came up , and um , so i if we give her even more um , instruments to work with I think the results are gonna be even better.Professor B: Oh , yeah , and then of course as she does it she 'll {disfmarker} she 'll learn @ @ .  So that 's great . Um {pause} And also if she 's willing to take on the job of organizing all those subjects and stuff thatwould be wonderful .Grad D: Mmm .Professor B: And , uh she 's {disfmarker} actually she 's going to graduate school in a kind of an experimental paradigm , so I think this is all just fine in terms of h her learningthings she 's gonna need to know uh , to do her career .Grad D: Mmm .Professor B: So , I {disfmarker} my guess is she 'll be r r quite happy to take on that job . And , so {disfmarker}Grad D: Yep . Yeah she{disfmarker} she didn't explicitly state that so .Professor B: Great .Grad D: And um I told her that we gonna um figure out a meeting time in the near future to refine the tasks and s look for the potential sources to findpeople . She also agrees that you know if it 's all just gonna be students the data is gonna be less valuable because of that so .Professor B: Well , as I say there is this s set of people next door , it 's not hard toGrad D:We 're already {disfmarker} Yeah .Professor B: uh {disfmarker}Grad D: However , we may run into a problem with a reading task there . And um , we 'll see .Professor B: Yeah . We could talk to the people who run itand um see if they have a way that they could easily uh tell people that there 's a task , pays ten bucks or something ,Grad D: Mm - hmm . Yeah .Professor B: but um you have to be comfortable reading relativelycomplicated stuff . And {disfmarker} and there 'll probably be self - selection to some extent .Grad D: Mmm . Yep .Professor B: Uh , so that 's good . Um . Now , {pause} I signed us up for the Wednesday slot , and partof what we should do is this .Grad D: OK .Professor B: So , my idea on that was {pause} uh , partly we 'll talk about system stuff for the computer scientists , but partly I did want it to get the linguists involved in someof this issue about what the task is and all {disfmarker} um you know , what the dialogue is , and what 's going on linguistically , because to the extent that we can get them contributing , that will be good . So thisissue about you know re - formulating things ,Grad D: Yep .Professor B: maybe we can get some of the linguists sufficiently interested that they 'll help us with it , uh , other linguists , if you 're a linguist , but in anycase ,Grad D: Yep .Professor B: um , the linguistics students and stuff . So my idea on {disfmarker} on Wednesday is partly to uh {disfmarker} you {disfmarker} I mean , what you did today would {disfmarker} i isjust fine . You just uh do " this is what we did , and here 's the {pause} thing , and here 's s some of the dialogue and {disfmarker} and so forth . " But then , the other thing of course is we should um give thecomputer scientists some idea of {disfmarker} of what 's going on with the system design , and where we think the belief - nets fit in and where the pieces are and stuff like that . Is {disfmarker} is this {pause} makesense to everybody ?Grad D: Yep .Professor B: Yeah . So , I don't {disfmarker} I don't think it 's worth a lot of work , particularly on your part , to {disfmarker} to {disfmarker} to make a big presentation . I don't thinkyou should {disfmarker} you don't have to make any new {pause} uh PowerPoint or anything . I think we got plenty of stuff to talk about . And , then um just see how a discussion goes .Grad D: Mm - hmm . Soundsgood . The uh other two things is um we 've {disfmarker} can have Johno tell us a little about thisProfessor B: Great .Grad D: and we also have a l little bit on the interface , M - three - L enhancement , and then umthat was it , I think .Grad A: So , what I did for this {disfmarker} this is {disfmarker} uh , a pedagogical belief - net because I was {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I took {disfmarker} I tried to conceptually do what youwere talking about with the nodes that you could expand out {disfmarker} so what I did was I took {disfmarker} I made these dummy nodes called Trajector - In and Trajector - Out that would isolate the things relatedto the trajector .Professor B: Yep .Grad A: And then there were the things with the source and the path and the goal .Professor B: Yep .Grad A: And I separated them out . And then I um did similar things for our{disfmarker} our net to {disfmarker} uh with the context and the discourse and whatnot , um , so we could sort of isolate them or whatever in terms of the {disfmarker} the top layer .Professor B: Mm - hmm .Grad A:And then the bottom layer is just the Mode . So .Professor B: So , let 's {disfmarker} let 's {disfmarker} Yeah , I don't understand it . Let 's go {disfmarker} Slide all the way up so we see what the p the p very bottomlooks like , or is that it ?Grad A: Yeah , there 's just one more node and it says " Mode " which is the decision between the {disfmarker}Grad D: Yeah .Professor B: OK , great . Alright .Grad A: So basically all I did was Itook the last {pause} belief - netProfessor B: So {disfmarker} Mm - hmm .Grad A: and I grouped things according to what {disfmarker} how I thought they would fit in to uh image schemas that would be related . Andthe two that I came up with were Trajector - landmark and then Source - path - goal as initial ones .Professor B: Yep . Mm - hmm .Grad A: And then I said well , uh the trajector would be the person in this caseprobably .Professor B: Right , yep .Grad A: Um , you know , we have {disfmarker} we have the concept of what their intention was , whether they were trying to tour or do business or whatever ,Professor B: Right.Grad A: or they were hurried . That 's kind of related to that . And then um in terms of the source , the things {disfmarker} uh the only things that we had on there I believe were whether {disfmarker} Oh actually , Ikind of , {disfmarker} I might have added these cuz I don't think we talked too much about the source in the old one but uh whether the {disfmarker} where I 'm currently at is a landmark might have a bearing onwhether {disfmarker}Grad D: Mm - hmm .Grad A: or the " landmark - iness " of where I 'm currently at . And " usefulness " is basi basically means is that an institutional facility like a town hall or something like thatthat 's not {disfmarker} something that you 'd visit for tourist 's {disfmarker} tourism 's sake or whatever . " Travel constraints " would be something like you know , maybe they said they can {disfmarker} they onlywanna take a bus or something like that , right ? And then those are somewhat related to the path ,Professor B: Mm - hmm .Grad A: so that would determine whether we 'd {disfmarker} could take {disfmarker} wewould be telling them to go to the bus stop or versus walking there directly . Um , " Goal " . Similar things as the source except they also added whether the entity was closed and whether they have somehow markedthat is was the final destination . Um , and then if you go up , Robert , Yeah , so {disfmarker} um , in terms of Context , what we had currently said was whether they were a businessman or a tourist of some otherperson . Um , Discourse was related to whether they had asked about open hours or whether they asked about where the entrance was or the admission fee , or something along those lines .Professor B: Mm - hmm.Grad A: Uh , Prosody I don't really {disfmarker} I 'm not really sure what prosody means , in this context , so I just made up you know whether {disfmarker} whether what they say is {disfmarker} or h how they say itis {disfmarker} is that .Professor B: Right , OK .Grad A: Um , the Parse would be what verb they chose , and then maybe how they modified it , in the sense of whether they said " I need to get there quickly " orwhatever .Professor B: Mm - hmm .Grad A: And um , in terms of World Knowledge , this would just basically be like opening and closing times of things , the time of day it is , and whatnot .Grad D: What 's " tourbook "?Grad A: Tourbook ? That would be , I don't know , the " landmark - iness " of things ,Grad D: Mm - hmm .Grad A: whether it 's in the tourbook or not .Professor B: Ch - ch - ch - ch . Now . Alright , so I understandwhat 's {disfmarker} what you got . I don't yet understand {pause} how you would use it . So let me see if I can askGrad A: Well , this is not a working Bayes - net .Professor B: a s Right . No , I understand that , but{disfmarker} but um So , what {disfmarker} Let 's slide back up again and see {disfmarker} start at the {disfmarker} at the bottom and Oop - bo - doop - boop - boop . Yeah . So , you could imagine w Uh , go ahead ,you were about to go up there and point to something .Grad A: Well I {disfmarker} OK , I just {disfmarker} Say what you were gonna say .Professor B: Good , do it !Grad A: OK .Professor B: No no , go do it .Grad A:Uh {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I 'd {disfmarker} No , I was gonna wait until {disfmarker}Professor B: Oh , OK . So , so if you {disfmarker} if we made {disfmarker} if we wanted to make it into a {disfmarker} a realuh Bayes - net , that is , you know , with fill {disfmarker} you know , actually f uh , fill it @ @ in , then uh {disfmarker}Grad A: So we 'd have to get rid of this and connect these things directly to the Mode .Professor B:Well , I don't {disfmarker} That 's an issue . So , um {disfmarker}Grad A: Cuz I don't understand how it would work otherwise .Professor B: Well , here 's the problem . And {disfmarker} and uh {disfmarker} Bhaskaraand I was talking about this a little earlier today {disfmarker} is , if we just do this , we could wind up with a huge uh , combinatoric input to the Mode thing . And uh {disfmarker}Grad A: Well I {disfmarker} oh yeah , Iunders I understand that , I just {disfmarker} uh it 's hard for me to imagine how he could get around that .Professor B: Well , i But that 's what we have to do .Grad A: OK .Professor B: OK , so , so , uh . There{disfmarker} there are a variety of ways of doing it . Uh . Let me just mention something that I don't want to pursue today which is there are technical ways of doing it , uh I I slipped a paper to Bhaskara and{disfmarker} about Noisy - OR 's and Noisy - MAXes and there 're ways to uh sort of back off on the purity of your Bayes - net - edness .Grad A: Mmm .Professor B: Uh , so . If you co you could ima and I now I don'tknow that any of those actually apply in this case , but there is some technology you could try to apply .Grad A: So it 's possible that we could do something like a summary node of some sort that {disfmarker} OK.Professor B: Yeah . Yeah . And , um So .Grad A: So in that case , the sum we 'd have {disfmarker} we {disfmarker} I mean , these wouldn't be the summary nodes . We 'd have the summary nodes like where thethings were {disfmarker} I guess maybe if thi if things were related to business or some other {disfmarker}Professor B: Yeah .Grad A: Yeah .Professor B: So what I was gonna say is {disfmarker} is maybe a good at


PhD F: And we 're on .Professor D: OK . Might wanna {vocalsound} close the door so that {disfmarker} Uh , Stephane will {disfmarker}PhD F: I 'll get it .Professor D: YeahPhD F: Hey Dave ? Could you go ahead andturn on , uh , Stephane 's {disfmarker}Grad C: Mm - hmm .Professor D: So that 's the virtual Stephane over there .PhD F: OK .Professor G: Do you use a PC for recording ? Or {disfmarker}PhD F: Uh , yeah , a Linuxbox . Yeah . It 's got , uh , like sixteen channels going into it .Professor G: Uh - huh . Uh - huh . The quality is quite good ? Or {disfmarker} ?PhD F: Mm - hmm . Yeah , so far , it 's been pretty good .Professor G: Mm -hmm .Professor D: Yeah . So , uh , yeah {disfmarker} the suggestion was to have these guys start to {disfmarker}PhD F: OK . Why don't you go ahead , Dave ?Grad C: OK . Um , so , yeah , the {disfmarker} this pastweek I 've been main mainly occupied with , um , getting some results , u from the SRI system trained on this short Hub - five training set for the mean subtraction method . And , um , I ran some tests last night . But ,um , c the results are suspicious . Um , it 's , um , {vocalsound} cuz they 're {disfmarker} the baseline results are worse than , um , Andreas {disfmarker} than results Andreas got previously . And {vocalsound} itcould have something to do with , um {disfmarker}PhD F: That 's on digits ?Grad C: That 's on digits . It c it {disfmarker} it could h it could have something to do with , um , downsampling .PhD F: Hmm .Grad C: That's {disfmarker} that 's worth looking into . Um , d and , um , ap ap apart from that , I guess the {disfmarker} the main thing I have t ta I have to talk is , um , where I 'm planning to go over the next week . Um . So I've been working on integrating this mean subtraction approach into the SmartKom system . And there 's this question of , well , so , um , in my tests before with HTK I found it worked {disfmarker} it worked the bestwith about twelve seconds of data used to estimate the mean , but , we 'll often have less {comment} in the SmartKom system . Um . So I think we 'll use as much data as we have {pause} at a particular time , and we'll {disfmarker} {vocalsound} we 'll concatenate utterances together , um , to get as much data as we possibly can from the user . But , {vocalsound} um , {vocalsound} there 's a question of how to set up the models. So um , we could train the models . If we think twelve seconds is ideal we could train the models using twelve seconds to calculate the mean , to mean subtract the training data . Or we could , um , use some otheramount . So {disfmarker} like I did an experiment where I , um , was using six seconds in test , um , but , for {disfmarker} I tried twelve seconds in train . And I tried , um , um , the same in train {disfmarker} I 'm a Itried six seconds in train . And six seconds in train {vocalsound} was about point three percent better . Um , and {disfmarker} {vocalsound} um , it 's not clear to me yet whether that 's {vocalsound} somethingsignificant . So I wanna do some tests and , um , {vocalsound} actually make some plots of , um {disfmarker} for a particular amount of data and test what happens if you vary the amount of data in train .PhD F: Mm -hmm .Professor D: Uh , Guenter , I don't know if you t {vocalsound} followed this stuff but this is , uh , {vocalsound} a uh , uh , long - term {disfmarker} long - term window F F Yeah . Yeah , he {disfmarker} youtalked about it .Professor G: Yeah , we {disfmarker} we spoke about it already ,Professor D: Oh , OK . So you know what he 's doing .Professor G: yeah .Professor D: Alright .Grad C: y s so I was {disfmarker} I actuallyran the experiments mostly and I {disfmarker} I was {disfmarker} I was hoping to have the plots with me today . I just didn't get to it . But , um {disfmarker} yeah , I wou I would be curious about people 's feedbackon this cuz I 'm {disfmarker} {vocalsound} @ @ {comment} I p I think there are some I think it 's {disfmarker} it 's kind of like a {disfmarker} a bit of a tricky engineering problem . I 'm trying to figure out what 's theoptimal way to set this up . So , um , {vocalsound} I 'll try to make the plots and then put some postscript up on my {disfmarker} on my web page . And I 'll mention it in my status report if people wanna take a look.Professor D: You could clarify something for me . You 're saying point three percent , you take a point three percent hit , {vocalsound} when the training and testing links are {disfmarker} don't match or something?PhD E: Hello .Professor D: Is that what it is ?Grad C: w Well , it cProfessor D: Or {disfmarker} ?Grad C: I {disfmarker} I don't think it {disfmarker} it 's {vocalsound} just for any mismatch {vocalsound} you take a hit.Professor D: Yeah .Grad C: i In some cases it might be u better to have a mismatch . Like I think I saw something like {disfmarker} like if you only have two seconds in test , or , um , maybe it was something like fourseconds , you actually do a little better if you , um , {vocalsound} train on six seconds than if you train on four seconds .Professor D: Yeah . Right .Grad C: Um , but the case , uh {disfmarker} with the point threepercent hit was {vocalsound} using six seconds in test , um , comparing train on twelve seconds {comment} versus train on six seconds .Professor D: And which was worse ?Grad C: The train on twelve seconds.Professor D: OK . But point three percent , uh , w from what to what ? That 's point three percent {disfmarker}Grad C: On {disfmarker} The {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} the accuracies {vocalsound} w went from{disfmarker} it was something vaguely like ninety - five point six accuracy , um , improved to ninety - five point nine wh when I {disfmarker}Professor D: So four point four to four point one .Grad C: OK .Professor D:So {disfmarker} yeah . So about a {disfmarker} about an eight percent , uh , seven or eight percent relative ?Grad C: OK .Professor D: Uh , Yeah . Well , I think in a p You know , if {disfmarker} if you were going foran evaluation system you 'd care . But if you were doing a live system that people were actually using nobody would notice . It 's {disfmarker} uh , I think the thing is to get something that 's practical , that{disfmarker} that you could really use .Grad C: Huh . That 's {disfmarker} that 's interesting . Alright , the e uh , I see your point . I guess I was thinking of it as , um , {vocalsound} an interesting research problem .The {disfmarker} how to g I was thinking that for the ASRU paper we could have a section saying , {vocalsound} " For SmartKom , we {disfmarker} we d in {disfmarker} we tried this approach in , uh , {vocalsound}interactive system " , which I don't think has been done before .Professor D: Yeah . Mm - hmm .Grad C: And {disfmarker} and then there was two research questions from that .Professor D: Mm - hmm .Grad C: Andone is the k does it still work if you just use the past history ?Professor D: Mm - hmm .Grad C: Alright , and the other was this question of , um what I was just talking about now . So I guess that 's why I thought it wasinteresting .Professor D: I mean , a short - time FFT {disfmarker} short - time cepstrum calculation , uh , mean {disfmarker} u mean calculation work that people have in commercial systems , they do this all the time .They {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} they calculate it from previous utterances and then use it , you know .Grad C: Yeah , um .Professor D: But {disfmarker} but , uh , as you say , there hasn't been that much with thislong {disfmarker} long - time , uh , spectra work .Grad C: Oh , o Oh , OK .Professor D: Uh ,Grad C: So that 's {disfmarker} that 's {disfmarker} that 's standard . Um {disfmarker}Professor D: Yeah . Pretty common.Grad C: OK .Professor D: Yeah . Um , but , u uh , yes . No , it is interesting . And the other thing is , I mean , there 's two sides to these really small , uh , gradations in performance . Um , I mean , on the one hand ina practical system if something is , uh , four point four percent error , four point one percent error , people won't really tell {disfmarker} be able to tell the difference . On the other hand , when you 're doing , uh ,research , you may , eh {disfmarker} you might find that the way that you build up a change from a ninety - five percent accurate system to a ninety - eight percent accurate system is through ten or twelve little thingsthat you do that each are point three percent . So {disfmarker} so the {disfmarker} they {disfmarker} they {disfmarker} it 's {disfmarker} I don't mean to say that they 're {disfmarker} they 're irrelevant . Uh , theyare relevant . But , um , {vocalsound} i for a demo , you won't see it .Grad C: Mm - hmm . Right . OK .Professor D: Yeah .Grad C: And , um , Let 's {disfmarker} l let 's see . Um , OK . And then there 's um , anotherthing I wanna start looking at , um , {vocalsound} wi is , um , the choice of the analysis window length . So I 've just been using two seconds just because that 's what Carlos did before . Uh , I wrote to him askingabout he chose the two seconds . And it seemed like he chose it a bit informally . So , um , with the {disfmarker} with the HTK set - up I should be able to do some experiments , on just varying that length , saybetween one and three seconds , in a few different reverberation conditions , um , say this room and also a few of the artificial impulse responses we have for reverberation , just , um , making some plots and seeinghow they look . And , um , so , with the {disfmarker} the sampling rate I was using , one second or two seconds or four seconds is at a power of two um , number of samples and , um , I 'll {disfmarker} I 'll jus f for theones in between I guess I 'll just zero - pad .Professor D: Mm - hmm . I guess one thing that might also be an issue , uh , cuz part of what you 're doing is you 're getting a {disfmarker} a spectrum over a bunch ofdifferent kinds of speech sounds . Um , and so it might matter how fast someone was talking for instance .Grad C: Oh .Professor D: You know , if you {disfmarker} if {disfmarker} if {disfmarker} if there 's a lot ofphones in one second maybe you 'll get a {disfmarker} a really good sampling of all these different things , and {disfmarker} {vocalsound} and , uh , on the other hand if someone 's talking slowly maybe you 'd needmore . So {disfmarker}Grad C: Huh .Professor D: I don't know if you have some samples of faster or slower speech but it might make a difference . I don't know .Grad C: Uh , yeah , I don't {disfmarker} I don't thinkthe TI - digits data that I have , um , {vocalsound} i is {disfmarker} would be appropriate for that .Professor D: Yeah , probably not . Yeah .Grad C: But what do you {disfmarker} What about if I w I fed it throughsome kind of , um , speech processing algorithm that changed the speech rate ?Professor D: Yeah , but then you 'll have the degradation of {disfmarker} of , uh , whatever you do uh , added onto that . But maybe .Yeah , maybe if you get something that sounds {disfmarker} that {disfmarker} that 's {disfmarker} does a pretty job at that .Grad C: Yeah . Well , uh , just if you think it 's worth looking into .Professor D: You couldimagine that .Grad C: I mean , it {disfmarker} it is getting a little away from reverberation .Professor D: Um , yeah . It 's just that you 're making a choice {disfmarker} uh , I was thinking more from the system aspect, if you 're making a choice for SmartKom , that {disfmarker} that {disfmarker} that it might be that it 's {disfmarker} it c the optimal number could be different , depending on {disfmarker}Grad C: Yeah . Right.Professor D: Could be . I don't know .Grad C: And {disfmarker} and th the third thing , um , uh , is , um , Barry explained LDA filtering to me yesterday . And so , um , Mike Shire in his thesis um , {vocalsound} did a{disfmarker} a series of experiments , um , training LDA filters in d on different conditions . And you were interested in having me repeat this for {disfmarker} for this mean subtraction approach ? Is {disfmarker} isthat right ? Or for these long analysis windows , I guess , is the right way to put it .Professor D: I guess , the {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} the issue I was {disfmarker} the general issue I was bringing up was that ifyou 're {disfmarker} have a moving {disfmarker} {vocalsound} moving window , uh , a wa a {disfmarker} a set of weights times things that , uh , move along , shift along in time , that you have in fact a linear timeinvariant filter . And you just happened to have picked a particular one by setting all the weights to be equal . And so the issue is what are some other filters that you could use , uh , in that sense of " filter " ?Grad C:Mm - hmm .Professor D: And , um , as I was saying , I think the simplest thing to do is not to train anything , but just to do some sort of , uh , uh , hamming or Hanning , uh , kind of window , kind of thing ,Grad C:Right . Mm - hmm .Professor D: just sort of to de - emphasize the jarring . So I think that would sort of be the first thing to do . But then , yeah , the LDA i uh , is interesting because it would sort of say well , supposeyou actually trained this up to do the best you could by some criterion , what would the filter look like then ?Grad C: Uh - huh .Professor D: Uh , and , um , that 's sort of what we 're doing in this Aur - Aurora stuff . And, uh , it 's still not clear to me in the long run whether the best thing to do would be to do that or to have some stylized version of the filter that looks like these things you 've trained up , because you always have theproblem that it 's trained up for one condition and it isn't quite right for another . So . uh {disfmarker} that 's {disfmarker} that 's why {disfmarker} that 's why RASTA filter has actually ended up lasting a long time ,people still using it quite a bit , because y you don't change it . So doesn't get any worse . Uh ,Grad C: Huh .Professor D: Anyway .Grad C: o OK . So , um , a actually I was just thinking about what I was asking aboutearlier , wi which is about having {vocalsound} less than say twelve seconds in the SmartKom system to do the mean subtraction . You said in {vocalsound} systems where you use cepstral mean subtraction , theyconcatenate utterances and , {vocalsound} do you know how they address this issue of , um , testing versus training ? Can {disfmarker}Professor D: Go ahead .Professor G: I think what they do is they do it always on -line , I mean , that you just take what you have from the past , that you calculate the mean of this and subtract the mean .Grad C: OK . Um {disfmarker}Professor G: And then you can {disfmarker} yeah , you{disfmarker} you can increase your window whi while you get {disfmarker} while you are getting more samples .Grad C: OK , um , and , um , so {disfmarker} so in tha in that case , wh what do they do when they 're tum , performing the cepstral mean subtraction on the training data ? So {disfmarker} because you 'd have hours and hours of training data . So do they cut it off and start over ? At intervals ? Or {disfmarker}?Professor G: So do you have {disfmarker} uh , you {disfmarker} you mean you have files which are hours of hours long ? Or {disfmarker} ?Grad C: Oh , well , no . I guess not . But {disfmarker}Professor G: Yeah . Imean , usually you have in the training set you have similar conditions , I mean , file lengths are , I guess the same order or in the same size as for test data , or aren't they ?Grad C: OK . But it 's {disfmarker} OK . Soif someone 's interacting with the system , though , uh , Morgan {disfmarker} uh , Morgan said that you would {vocalsound} tend to , um , {vocalsound} chain utterances together um , rProfessor D: Well , I think whatI was s I thought what I was saying was that , um , at any given point you are gonna start off with what you had from before .Grad C: Oh .Professor D: From {disfmarker} and so if you 're splitting things up intoutterances {disfmarker} So , for instance , in a dialogue system , {comment} where you 're gonna be asking , uh , you know , th for some information , there 's some initial th something . And , you know , the first timeout you {disfmarker} you might have some general average . But you {disfmarker} you d you don't have very much information yet . But at {disfmarker} after they 've given one utterance you 've got something . Youcan compute your mean cepstra from that ,Grad C: Mm - hmm .Professor D: and then can use it for the next thing that they say , uh , so that , you know , the performance should be better that second time . Um ,  andI think the heuristics of exactly how people handle that and how they handle their training I 'm sure vary from place to place . But I think the {disfmarker} ideally , it seems to me anyway , that you {disfmarker} youwould wanna do the same thing in training as you do in test . But that 's {disfmarker} that 's just , uh , a prejudice . And I think anybody working on this with some particular task would experiment .Grad C: Right . I gI guess the question I had was , um , amount of data e u was the amount of data that you 'd give it to , um {vocalsound} update this estimate . Because say you {disfmarker} if you have say five thousand utterancesin your training set , {vocalsound} um , and you {disfmarker} you keep the mean from the last utterance , by the time it gets to the five thousandth utterance {disfmarker}Professor D: No , but those are all differentpeople with different {disfmarker} I mean , i in y So for instance , in {disfmarker} in the {disfmarker} in a telephone task , these are different phone calls . So you don't wanna @ @ {comment} chain it together from a{disfmarker} from a different phone call .Grad C: OK , so {disfmarker} so {disfmarker} so they would {disfmarker} g sProfessor D: So it 's within speaker , within phone call ,Professor G: Yeah .Professor D: if it 's adialogue system , it 's within whatever this characteristic you 're trying to get rid of is expected to be consistent over ,Professor G: Hmm .Grad C: r and it {disfmarker}Professor D: right ?Grad C: right . OK , so you 'd{disfmarker} you {disfmarker} and so in training you would start over at {disfmarker} at every new phone call or at every {vocalsound} new speaker . Yeah ,Professor D: Yeah .Grad C: OK .Professor D: Yeah . Now ,{vocalsound} you know , maybe you 'd use something from the others just because at the beginning of a call you don't know anything , and so you might have some kind of general thing that 's your best guess to startwith . But {disfmarker} So , s I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} you know , a lot of these things are proprietary so we 're doing a little bit of guesswork here . I mean , what do comp what do people do who really facethese problems in the field ? Well , they have companies and they don't tell other people exactly what they do .Grad C: R right .Professor D: But {disfmarker} but I mean , when you {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} thehints that you get from what they {disfmarker} when they talk about it are that they do {disfmarker} they all do something like this .Grad C: Right , OK . I see . Bec - because I {disfmarker} so this SmartKom task firstoff , it 's this TV and movie information system .Professor D: Yeah , but you might have somebody who 's using itGrad C: And {disfmarker} Yeah .Professor D: and then later you might have somebody else who 's usingit .Grad C: Yeah . Right . Right . I {disfmarker} I see .Professor D: And so you 'd wanna set some {disfmarker}Grad C: I was {disfmarker} I was about to say . So if {disfmarker} if you ask it " What {disfmarker} whatmovies are on TV tonight ? " ,Professor D: Yeah . Yeah .Grad C: if I look at my wristwatch when I say that it 's about two seconds . The way I currently have the mean subtraction , um , set up , the {disfmarker} theanalysis window is two seconds .Professor D: Yeah .Grad C: So what you just said , about what do you start with , raises a question of {vocalsound} what do I start with then ?Professor D: Mm - hmm .Grad C: I guess it{disfmarker} because {disfmarker}Professor D: Well , w OK , so in that situation , though , th maybe what 's a little different there , is I think you 're talking about {disfmarker} there 's only one {disfmarker} it{disfmarker} it {disfmarker} it also depends {disfmarker} we 're getting a little off track here .Grad C: Oh , right .Professor D: r But {disfmarker} but {disfmarker} but {disfmarker} Uh , there 's been some discussionabout whether the work we 're doing in that project is gonna be for the kiosk or for the mobile or for both . And I think for this kind of discussion it matters . If it 's in the kiosk , then the physical situation is the same .It 's gonna {disfmarker} you know , the exact interaction of the microphone 's gonna differ depending on the person and so forth . But at least the basic acoustics are gonna be the same . So f if it 's really in one kiosk ,then I think that you could just chain together and {disfmarker} and you know , as much {disfmarker} as much speech as possible to {disfmarker} because what you 're really trying to get at is the {disfmarker} is thereverberation characteristic .Grad C: Yeah .Professor D: But in {disfmarker} in the case of the mobile , uh , {comment} presumably the acoustic 's changing all over the place .Grad C: Right .Professor D: And in that


The Chair (Hon. Anthony Rota (NipissingTimiskaming, Lib.)): I call the meeting to order.  Welcome to the third meeting of the House of Commons Special Committee on the COVID-19 Pandemic. Pursuant to the order ofreference of Monday, April20, the committee is meeting for the purposes of considering ministerial announcements, allowing members to present petitions, and questioning ministers of the crown, including the PrimeMinister, in respect of the COVID-19 pandemic. I understand there's an agreement to observe a moment of silence in memory of the six members of the Canadian Armed Forces who lost their lives last Wednesday in ahelicopter crash off the coast of Greece.  We'll return to order. Colleagues, we meet today to continue our discussion about how our country is dealing with the COVID-19 pandemic. As we do, Canadians, like everyonearound the world, are doing their best to live their lives until things improve. Meanwhile, as we look towards the future, I believe that it is also important to remember our past and to continue to mark the importantmoments in our shared history. At this very moment, the Dominion Carillonneur, Dr. Andrea McCrady, is performing a special recital to commemorate the 75th anniversary of the liberation of the Netherlands by theCanadian Forces. In May 1945, Canadian Forces played a major role in liberating the Dutch people from Nazi occupation. May 5 is now a national holiday in the Netherlands that commemorates the event and the greatfriendship that now exists between our two countries. Today's meeting is taking place by video conference. The proceedings will be made available via the House of Commons website. Please be aware that the webcastwill always show the person speaking rather than the entire committee. Let me remind you that, as in the House or in committee, members may not take photographs of their colleagues or film the proceedings. In orderto facilitate the work of our interpreters and ensure orderly meetings, I will outline a few rules. Interpretation of this video conference will be done as it is at normal committee meetings and in the House. At the bottomof your screen, you can choose floor, English or French. As you have seen, I change as I am speaking. I have now switched over to English in order to speak English. If you look at the bottom, you have a little flag thatindicates whether it's English or French, and that's how we will be speaking. It makes it easier. That was where we had a little bit of a glitch in the last session. I understand that there are no statements by ministers.We can now proceed to presenting petitions for a period not exceeding 15 minutes.  I would like to remind members that petitions presented during a meeting of the special committee must already have been certifiedby the clerk of petitions.  In addition, to ensure that the petition is considered to have been properly presented, the certificate of the petition and each page of the petition for petitions certified in a previous Parliamentshould be emailed to the committee no later than 6 p.m. on the day before the committee. I thank all the members for their usual co-operation. Thank you all. Now we'll proceed to presenting petitions. Our first petitioncomes from the honourable member for Sherwood ParkFort Saskatchewan, Mr. Genuis.Mr. Garnett Genuis (Sherwood ParkFort Saskatchewan, CPC): Mr. Chair, I'm pleased to be presenting two petitions today. The firstpetition is with respect to government Bill C-7. Petitioners raised concerns that this bill removes safeguards from the current euthanasia regime. It includes removing the mandatory 10-day reflection period and thenumber of required witnesses who will witness a person's consent. The petitioners urge the House of Commons to immediately discontinue the removal of safeguards for people requesting euthanasia, and to put in placeadditional measures to protect vulnerable people. This would require that bill to be amended or not passed. The second petition is with respect to Senate public bill S-204. This is on organ harvesting and trafficking.Petitioners call on members of the House, and hopefully the Senate as well, to support Bill S-204, which would make it a criminal offence for a person to go abroad and receive an organ for which there has not beenconsent. It would also create provisions under which a person could be made inadmissible to Canada if they had been involved in organ harvesting or trafficking. Thank you very much.The Chair: Thank you. I want toremind all the members that there are specific headsets that have been mandated to all of us. If you don't have one, please talk to your IT ambassador and they will get one to you as quickly as possible. The reason forthem is not so much for what you hear, but that our interpreters are working and there are work conditions that really make it difficult. Part of that is not having the appropriate boom on your headset, which will make itvery difficult for them to hear and interpret for our members. Now we go to the member for BeachesEast York, Mr. Erskine-Smith.Mr. Nathaniel Erskine-Smith (BeachesEast York, Lib.): Mr. Chair, I had to learn how totie my tie all over again. It's been so long. I want to thank Jenna Robar, who's led this petition e-2453. The petitioners have noted that there are approximately 60 indigenous languages in Canada and that 2019, lastyear, was declared by the UN to be the year of indigenous languages. They draw attention to article 13 of the UNDRIP and to the TRC's calls to action numbers 13 to 16. Fundamentally, they call upon the Government ofCanada to recognize indigenous languages as being official languages of Canada and to have each language recognized nationally, with implementations on regional and provincial levels, acknowledging that manyregions have different languages.Mr. Eric Duncan (StormontDundasSouth Glengarry, CPC): Mr. Chair, I am proud to present a petition on behalf of one of my constituents, Myles Lynch of St. Andrews West in my riding.Myles made history as the first Canadian ever to survive three double-lung transplants. Myles lives with cystic fibrosis and has had three lung transplants in the last five years, and he's only 22 years old. Myles created adocumentary called 8 Thousand Myles, which had a few showings in my riding. It documented his journey across Canada. One thing Myles has been advocating for is the creation of a national opt-out program for organdonation. Myles asked me how he could help raise awareness of that issue. I mentioned to him e-petitions online and getting people across the country to sign them. I am proud to have this certified today, with 1,318signatures, asking the Standing Committee on Health to launch a study into the feasibility of the creation of a national opt-out program. I give kudos to Myles not only for his strength personally but also for his advocacyfor others and for saving lives in our country by advocating for a better and an improved organ donation system. Kudos to Myles. I'm proud to present this petition today.Mr. Peter Julian (New WestminsterBurnaby,NDP): Mr. Chair, I'm very pleased to present this certified petition on behalf of several dozen residents of Toronto, Mississauga and Brampton, Ontario, who add their voices to those of the thousands upon thousands ofCanadians who have signed similar petitions. Given that Canadians are living through unprecedented, catastrophic climate events, and at the same time our society, as you know, is suffering from worsening social andeconomic inequalitieshalf of Canadian families are only $200 away from insolvency in any given monthand particularly given the pandemic that we are currently experiencing, these petitioners are calling on theGovernment of Canada to support motion M-1, a made-in-Canada green new deal that I am presenting in front of the House of Commons. It calls on Canada to take bold and rapid action to tackle the climateemergency, and to put in place a shift to a clean and renewable energy economy.Mr. Gord Johns (CourtenayAlberni, NDP): Mr. Chair, it's an honour to table a petition on behalf of constituents from CourtenayAlberni.They are concerned, obviously, about fentanyl-related deaths. Over 12,000 Canadians have died over the last four years due to fentanyl-poisoned sources. They cite that the current war on drugs has been costly andgrossly ineffective; that it has resulted in widespread stigma towards addiction and against those who use illicit drugs; and that criminalization of particular substances has resulted in the establishment of a drug tradethat now trafficks dangerous and lethal products such as fentanyl. They are citing that regulating to ensure safe sources, with proper measures and bylaws, will reduce the criminal element associated with street drugs.Problematic substance use is a health issue and is not resolved through criminalization of personal possession and consumption. They are calling on the Government of Canada to declare the current opioid overdose andfenanyl poisoning crisis a national public health emergency under the Emergencies Act. They are calling for the government to reform current drug policy to decriminalize personal possession, as has been done inPortugal and other countries, and to create with urgency and immediacy a system to provide safe and unadulterated access to substances so that people who use substances experimentally, recreationally or chronicallyare not at imminent risk of overdose due to a contaminated source.Mr. Brad Vis (MissionMatsquiFraser Canyon, CPC): Mr. Chair, I'm presenting a petition today that contains the concerns of Canadians in my riding withthe government's approach to firearms legislation and regulation. The petition highlights that the Liberal government's December 5, 2019, Speech from the Throne contains numerous inaccuracies about current firearmslegislation and regulation; that the term military-style assault rifles is a political phrase undefined in Canadian law; that municipalities are constitutionally unable to enact criminal law to ban handguns in theirjurisdictions; that the experts, including chiefs of police, agree that banning firearms and requiring law-abiding gun owners to follow more unnecessary red tape will not increase public safety; that the majority of gunsused in violent crimes are smuggled into Canada from the United States; and that the Liberal government continues to target law-abiding firearms owners instead of the gangs, drug traffickers and illegal gun traffickersresponsible for violence in our communities. The petitioners in MissionMatsquiFraser Canyon are calling on the government to stop targeting law-abiding firearms owners; to cancel all plans to confiscate firearms legallyowned by federally licensed, RCMP-vetted Canadians; and to focus our limited resources on anti-gang enforcement, on reducing the involvement of at-risk youth and gangs, on mental health and on providing theCanada Border Services Agency with the tools they need to do their job effectively.The Chair: Very good. That's all for petitions today. We will now proceed to the questioning of ministers. I would like to remindhonourable members that no member shall be recognized for more than five minutes at a time and that members may split their time with one or more members by so indicating to the chair. Ministers responding to thequestion should do so by simply turning on their mike and speaking. I want to again remind honourable members to use the boom on the official headsets so that everything runs smoothly, not only for ourselves butalso for the interpreters.  We start the question period with Mr.Paul-Hus.Mr. Pierre Paul-Hus (CharlesbourgHaute-Saint-Charles, CPC): Thank you, Mr.Chair. Although we are right in the middle of a pandemic and thegovernment has agreed to set aside all parliamentary business in order to concentrate solely on eliminating the virus in Canada and its impacts, the Prime Minister is deceiving Canadians by introducing measures topunish law-abiding firearm owners. Why?Right Hon. Justin Trudeau (Prime Minister): Mr.Chair, I feel that all Canadians were affected by the massacre in Nova Scotia. Once again, too many families are facing tragedyand tremendous grief. During the last election campaign, we promised to ban military-style assault weapons, and that is exactly what we have done. We will be working with members from all parties in order tocontinue strengthening gun control. It is a shame that, once more, the Conservatives do not want to strengthen gun control in the country.Mr. Pierre Paul-Hus: Mr.Chair, I understand the Prime Minister's reply.However, I would like to know whether he considers that, with this order in council, organized crime, street gangs and other criminals are simply going to turn in their weapons.Right Hon. Justin Trudeau: This is indeedonly a first step, but it is an important one. We are doing other things to eliminate or restrict handguns in our municipalities, to strengthen the control at our borders, and to implement other measures. I am pleased tohear the hon. member speak of those measures, because we are going to work together in the House to strengthen gun control. I hope that the Conservative Party will be part of that discussion in a positive way, inorder to keep Canadians safe.Mr. Pierre Paul-Hus: Mr.Chair, I can simply say to the Prime Minister that the Conservative Party has always been committed to battling criminals, not law-abiding citizens. Speaking ofcriminals, we know that, even before the pandemic, the Prime Minister had asked the Parole Board of Canada to release prisoners more easily and more quickly. Now we are learning that, because of the pandemic,some releases are happening very quickly. The Minister of Public Safety told us that the people were approaching the end of their sentences or were older, but we are learning in the media that some dangerouscriminals are being released. Can the Prime Minister give us an explanation?Right Hon. Justin Trudeau: The protection, the safety and the health of all Canadians are important for the government. This is why we havetaken additional measures in our correctional services to ensure that guards and inmates are protected. We have indeed opened the doors to some more speedy releases, but only in very specific cases that present littleor no danger for Canadians. We have managed to find the right balance. We must protect Canadians and we must also ensure that they are safe. Those two things go hand-in-hand.Mr. Pierre Paul-Hus: So is the PrimeMinister confirming to us that no dangerous criminals have been precipitously released so that they do not have to experience COVID-19 within the walls?Right Hon. Justin Trudeau: There are very strict rules andprinciples to ensure that people posing a threat to society are not released.The Chair: Mr.Paul-Hus, you have one minute left.Mr. Pierre Paul-Hus: Thank you, Mr.Chair. The Chinese government has not been transparentwith the rest of the world about the coronavirus. Australia asked for an in-depth investigation, but has received threats from the communist regime. Is Canada going to stand by its allies in the Five Eyes and demandthat the Chinese government be completely transparent?Right Hon. Justin Trudeau: We continue to stand in solidarity with our allies, including the Five Eyes, as they have stood in solidarity with Canada in terms of thetwo Canadians who have been unjustly detained for a long time in China. In the coming months and years, we expect to obtain answers to all our questions about the origin of this pandemic, including questions that areimportant for China. At the same time, we are going to work hard to ensure that all Canadians have the equipment and the protection they need to get through this pandemic.The Chair: We now move toMr.Blanchet.Mr. Yves-Franois Blanchet (BeloeilChambly, BQ): Thank you, Mr.Chair. I am sorry that I do not have my official headset. I was elsewhere, and I did not bring it with me. I hope that you can still hear meproperly. For some days, discussions have been going on between people from the Bloc Qubcois and people from the government with a view to collaboratively coming up with a proposal for seniors in Quebec andCanada. The gist of our proposal is to temporarily increase the old age security by about $25per week, or $110per month. By the way, I hate the term "old age security. I prefer "senior security. The discussion has beengoing on for some time and it's a proposal that we made in the election campaign. We are asking for it to be done at this point, at least temporarily. Parliament stopped sitting in the middle of March. We are now in May,and seniors still have nothing. They are impatient themselves, and we spend a good part of our days answering them. Given that impatience, I realized I should not be the one answering them, it should be the PrimeMinister. So here is my question for the Prime Minister: what are you doing to seek a solution that will increase the purchasing power of seniors in Quebec and Canada in the very short term?Right Hon. Justin Trudeau:Clearly, seniors need support and significant services from us because of COVID-19. Our priority was to implement income replacement benefits for workers who have lost their jobs because of COVID-19. Then weannounced different measures, including measures for seniors. The most vulnerable seniors are going to receive reimbursement of the GST, which will help them very quickly. We have also reduced by 25% theminimum amount that must be withdrawn from registered retirement income funds. We have also channelled $9million through the United Way, to help the most vulnerable seniors. Absolutely, I recognize that moremust be done. I am very pleased that we have been able to work with other parliamentarians, including those in the Bloc Qubcois, to hear these concerns and to find the best way to help seniors in the short term. Interms of the pandemic, they have concerns about their physical security, but also about their financial security. We will have more to say about this soon.Mr. Yves-Franois Blanchet: In the last few hours, the PrimeMinister has indicated that he could need the cooperation of other parties, including the Bloc Qubcois, on a completely different matter. We are very open to that discussion, but we want the same openness when we areasking for something to serve the people of Quebec. The cost of a basket of groceries has increased for seniors, as it has for everyone else. It's true for all seniors over 65years old, of course. The current old agepension represents less than half of the Canada emergency student benefit. It represents less than one third of the basic Canada emergency response benefit. Seniors in my constituency, as in any other of the338constituencies, are asking what we are doing. They are asking how there can be nothing for them. When will there be something for them? I want to be able to give them an answer of some kind. What is the PrimeMinister's answer? I will repeat it to them.Right Hon. Justin Trudeau: There will be announcements in the coming days on the way in which we will be able to help seniors, particularly the most vulnerable seniors. Werecognize that the cost of a basket of groceries is increasing for everyone. That is why we have to do better for our seniors. There are horror stories, whether about the CHSLDs, or about our most vulnerable seniorsacross the country. Far too many families are experiencing tremendous grief. There are seniors who are alone, seniors who are afraid of falling ill without ever seeing their grandchildren or their children again. We haveto be there for those who belong to that great generation that fought for us during the second world war. Now we have to fight for them in their homes. That is exactly what we are going to do.The Chair: We'll go to thenext question. Ms. Collins.Ms. Laurel Collins (Victoria, NDP): Mr. Chair, every day I hear from people who are struggling to pay their bills and to keep a roof over their head. Instead of making sure that Canadians getthe help they need, the government has created complicated programs that are still letting people fall through the cracks. If the Prime Minister won't commit to a universal benefit, will he at least commit to removingthe restrictive eligibility criteria that are leaving the most vulnerable people behind?Right Hon. Justin Trudeau: Mr. Chair, we knew, when this pandemic hit, that we needed to help Canadians who were suffering fromcoast to coast to coast, particularly the most vulnerable. That is why we moved forward rapidly with the Canada emergency response benefit, which has helped over seven million individual Canadians and has made ahuge difference. We had to move very quickly to get this money out to people, and that is exactly what we did. We also recognized that there would be a need to do more. That is why since that moment, we havecontinually worked on reaching out to the most vulnerable and supporting them as well. We have more to do, but we knew that targeted approaches were what was most needed.Ms. Laurel Collins: Mr. Chair, the