Lynne Neagle AM: Good morning, everyone. Welcome to the Children, Young People and Education Committee. We've received apologies for absence from Julie Morgan, and I'm very pleased to welcome David Rees,who is substituting for her today. Can I ask Members whether there are any declarations of interest, please? No. Okay. Thank you very much. Item 2 this morning, then, is a session with the Minister for Children andSocial Care on the Welsh Government's childcare offer. So, I'm very pleased to welcome Huw Irranca-Davies, Minister for Children and Social Care, also Jo-Anne Daniels, director for communities and tackling poverty,and Owain Lloyd, deputy director for childcare, play and early years. So, thank you, all, for your attendance. If you're happy, we'll go straight into questions from Members, and the first questions come from HefinDavid.Hefin David AM: Good morning, Minister. How has it gone in the early implementer local authority areas, and is it something of a mixed bag?Huw Irranca-Davies AM: It's gone well, but I'm glad we've done itthrough this process of early implementer, actually piloting it, because we're learning lessons as we go along. It has gone well. It's been encouraging, to the extent that we're at the point where we're expanding—we'vemade announcements on expanding some of the early implementer areas so we can learn more lessons. But, in terms of what we're learning, one is the bureaucracy around the current approach that we're taking,because it's being done on the seven early implementers. So, we're asking parents to come in, provide their wage slips, provide the birth certificates, and so on. You're dealing sometimes with parents and families withcomplex issues and complex backgrounds, so it's difficult. And the burden of administration on that is falling to each pilot area. In one case, it's a whole authority, but it's only one—that's in Blaenau Gwent. In others,it's smaller areas. So, we're also hitting those—. The other big challenge we're hitting is communication. So, we're having parents, generally, who are outside the areas entirely saying, 'Why haven't we got this yet? Canwe please get into it?', which is encouraging. But the other thing we're having is people who are within pilot authorities, where it doesn't extend to the whole authority, saying, 'Well, hold on now, we think we qualify forsomething under universal care, we think we qualify for something on tax credits. Why don't we qualify for this?' 'Well, you're not in the pilot area.' So, we're learning about these things, but the biggest one, I have tosay, is the administrative burden, and I think that's interesting in how we take this forward for a wider roll-out.Hefin David AM: What is the administrative burden? What specifically is that?Huw Irranca-Davies AM: It isthat sheer burden on each local authority, and each pilot area, to administer a scheme where we are asking parents to prove eligibility, to bring in documents to prove their eligibility, to make adjustments as it goesforward based on what their changing work patterns are, what their salary slips say. It's incredibly bureaucratic. So, yesterday, when we made the statement following the announcement of the introduction of theChildcare Funding (Wales) Bill, we made clear that our preferred option, as put within that framework Bill, is actually to build on, and to learn from the lessons as well, the model of the HM Revenue and Customs type ofmodel, where you actually have—and this, by the way, is supported by local authority providers out there—one system that is a centralised system, where there is clarity, that is handled, that has elements ofinformation sharing between Government departments, such as the Department for Work and Pensions, and so on, so that the work is done for the parents, and the work is done for the local authorities; much cleaner,much simpler.Hefin David AM: How confident are you that you can achieve that by 2020?Huw Irranca-Davies AM: We are very confident. But, as I say, I'm more confident in the fact that we're actually piloting it, andphasing this in, because I think we've learned from some of the experiences elsewhere, including just over the border in England, where they have a different version of a childcare offer, but they've gone for it in abig-bang approach. And it has led to technical issues, it's led to volume issues, where their anticipation of how many people would buy into it was overwhelmed by the numbers who actually then came forward for it,and the complexity, I have to say, of individual family situations, whereas what we are doing, Hefin, is taking this forward very, very carefully. Each roll-out, each expansion that we're doing of the pilot is not—and Iknow this has caused some people to come back and say, 'Why can't we all have it now?' It's because we're only rolling out to areas where we now need to learn a lesson about whether it's rurality or, as it will bewithin densely urban areas, where the cost might be slightly higher, and that's allowing us to have the confidence that we'll have it. We've expanded the whole offer across Gwynedd—the whole of Gwynedd, Angleseyand Caerphilly. Flintshire now have a cross-authority offer. Rhondda Cynon Taf is anticipating doing this by September. Swansea is planning to do it, they tell us, in due course—in short order—as well. So, we have theconfidence now that, with that learning going on from different pilot areas, we'll have the full roll-out by 2020.Hefin David AM: Is it true to say that, in the early adopter areas, the intensity of demand for the services isnot spread evenly across?Huw Irranca-Davies AM: Absolutely.Hefin David AM: And why is that? Is that going to cause a problem across Wales?Huw Irranca-Davies AM: No, it won't cause a problem. If we were doingthis tomorrow, it would cause a problem, but what we're learning is that there are some economic issues and then there are some cultural issues. So ,there are issues to do with—. It's not capacity, by the way. We'renot finding a problem here with capacity, whether it's in English language provision or whether it's in Welsh language provision, whether it's in children with complex needs, we're not finding that as an issue. But whatwe are finding is, for example, one of the well-known ones—and I've spoken about this before—is that, in some of the south Wales Valleys constituencies, there is a family tradition of doing childcare within the families.I've done it myself. Grandparents, aunts, uncles and so on provide free, unregistered, unlicensed childcare of a sort. Now that isn't what the scheme is about, by the way, I have to say. So, some of the aspects arecultural, but what we're also doing alongside this, whilst looking at the capacity and looking at how we learnt from the pilot roll-out, is that communication with parents and providers and local authorities as well. So, wehave a whole programme running alongside it. It's about communicating what the offer is, how simple it is to get invovled in this and where they go to, and, critically, I think, how we do that national roll-out would beimportant as well.Hefin David AM: So, given the point you've made about grandparents and family, wouldn't it be sensible, then, to offer a subsidy to grandparents to provide this kind of care?Huw Irranca-Davies AM:Unregistered grandparents?Hefin David AM: Well, through some kind of analysis of that.Huw Irranca-Davies AM: Well, we don't think so and there are good reasons behind this.Hefin David AM: Is it because you say thatthey wouldn't be registered as carers for their own family member?Huw Irranca-Davies AM: Yes, but there's a deeper reason behind that registration as well. The childcare offer isn't only to just provide childcare; it'sthe wider aspects that come with this. This childcare offer ties into the foundation years offer. There's an element of education linked to the childcare offer—there's that 10 hours of the early education foundation yearsas well. The two tie together. So, there's an issue here with quality, about socialisation and how children learn in an environment, as opposed to purely—as great as all our grandparents and aunts and unclesare—simply child-minding. That's one important distinction. So, the focus of this scheme is very much on registered licensed providers, which could be, by the way—because we do have them, and we're discussing thisat the moment internally and with the Professional Association for Childcare and Early Years and others—grandparents who are actually registered and inspected by the care inspectorate? We're having thosediscussions.Hefin David AM: How many of them are there?Huw Irranca-Davies AM: We don't think there is a huge number, but we're trying to bottom this out at the moment. We haven't got the exact number, but wedon't think they are huge numbers, but there are, in our constituencies, registered, licensed, inspected grandparents who look after other people's children in a little group of four or five or six or seven, but also theirown grandchildren.Hefin David AM: So, they're a kind of grandparents club.Huw Irranca-Davies AM: Yes. Now that, I would say to you—and I know that Darren raised this on the floor yesterday as well—is markedlydifferent in the nature of it, because it's registered and licensed, than simply informal grandparents or aunts or uncles. I say that as well because we also get people who will say to us, 'I don't want to be paid for lookingafter my grandchildren; I look after my grandchildren because I look after them'.Hefin David AM: And what about the view, given that you said that capacity wasn't an issue, of the National Day Nurseries Association,which says that Wales has the most fragile childcare sector in Great Britain?Huw Irranca-Davies AM: I don't agree we have the most fragile, but the childcare offer gives us an opportunity to make it more resilient andmore robust. We know from the early piloting, and as we roll it out, that there is the immense diversity within the childcare sector, and we're talking about everything from those very small terraced homes that havebeen licensed and registered to take six or seven children, to large, complex environments that perhaps are on maintained premises within school premises, provided by a voluntary or third sector organisation. So,there's immense complexity and we know that that differs across Wales, and we also know there's immense regional variation in the scale and the type of childcare offer. What the roll-out allows us to do, backed by £60million of capital money behind it, in terms of capital development of childcare facilities, backed by a 10-year workforce development plan for childcare—and bear in mind this is bolted in as part of our foundationaleconomy approach as well—that means, by 2020, we get to the point where we're putting the money into the capital development but also to the workforce development, because in some areas we're finding it's not todo with lack of provision and facilities, it's to do with lack of staff. In other areas, we're finding there are plenty of staff but not the adequate facilities. We've got to get it right.Hefin David AM: That's fair enough, but is itrealistic to think that there's going to be capacity growth in the next two to three years to deliver the product? Is that realistic to think that that foundational sector can provide that level of staffing?Huw Irranca-DaviesAM: Yes, I think it is, absolutely, because, again, what we're finding is we've got several things going on at once in terms of how we monitor and assess the development of this roll-out. One is the work that we're doingon the ground with the phased roll-out, so we're literally learning live time, and I have pretty much weekly or fortnightly updates on how things are going, but also there is a termly update as well. We've alsocommissioned additional work from Arad to look at this first phase of the roll-out that we've done to see what that tells us as well. But the feedback that we're getting from the childcare providers themselves, on thebasis that we're now identifying where either the gaps in the workforce or the physical facilities are, is that, 'Yes, we can do this', because we're putting the money in, we have the strategy for the workforcedevelopment, and it's not going to be the same in all parts of Wales. It's not as if what we're saying is, 'Here's what we're going to do all of a sudden—flick a switch and we have a universality of the same type ofprovision everywhere.' So, let me give you one key example. Alongside this, alongside the £60 million capital fund, alongside the workforce development, we've also identified a separate strain of money into cylchmeithrin. We know that there is a shortage in parts of Wales for Welsh language childcare development. We're specifically putting money into developing that, and, in fact, the first one of those will be, from that newtranche of money, opening up, I think, in September. They anticipate, as part of our big strategy with Welsh language development, we'll have an additional 40 of those by—Jo-Anne Daniels: Thirty.Huw Irranca-DaviesAM: It's an additional 30 by 2020, and an additional doubling of that in the 10 years after that. We can't take this for granted, Hefin. This is difficult. This is hard work, but we have everything in place to make ithappen.Hefin David AM: The last thing from me: the £4.50 single national rate—is there a danger that we might be creating a kind of EasyJet-style nursery provision where you get the basics but the wealthier parentsare going to be able to pay for better care within those settings because of the add-ons?Huw Irranca-Davies AM: We really mulled over this a lot and discussed it, I have to say, not only internally but with childcareproviders out there and with parents as well and with local authorities. The first thing to say is the £4.50 rate that we've set has been welcomed, and it's been welcomed because it's unlike the much more complex offerthat's in England, where there's a variable rate and there are lots of determining factors on it and it's added complexity and confusion.Hefin David AM: Can I just ask there, it's been welcomed perhaps in Blaenau Gwent,but has it been equally welcomed in Cardiff?Huw Irranca-Davies AM: No, because we haven't rolled it out in Cardiff yet, and that is a salient point.Hefin David AM: Okay, fair enough. But will it be, then?HuwIrranca-Davies AM: Yes, it will be. Some of the more expensive areas like Cardiff and Newport are knocking on our door saying, 'Please can we have this offer?', and we are keen to give it to them. But, as I say—HefinDavid AM: But do you anticipate a capacity problem with the £4.50 in those areas, compared to, say, the Cynon valley?Huw Irranca-Davies AM: We can't anticipate it yet, Hefin, but that's exactly the reason for goinginto that area and then assessing how it works. We're reasonably confident that the £4.50—. We're reasonably assured by the feedback that we're having that the £4.50 might work as a universal amount. But if welearn, when we roll it out in Cardiff and Newport, that there needs to be some variation, we can look at that, because we're not doing a big-bang approach. So, that is part of why we will move to roll it out within Cardiffand Newport and other more expensive areas and learn from it, but at the moment, I have to say, the £4.50 amount has been welcomed—it's appropriate. You touched on the other aspect, though, of the wider aspectsof beyond the £4.50, because the £4.50 doesn't cover everything. The £4.50 is a contribution towards the wraparound childcare element but it doesn't cover—and we agonised over this—the issues of things liketransport out on trips or food or snacks and things like this. Now, we did agonise a number of things that brought us to the conclusion where we are. I have to say, this hasn't been ivory-tower stuff; it's been indiscussion with the providers but also parents. One: parents are quite used to—with childcare settings and play care settings and so on—the idea that providers are quite different. Some providers charge a fee that doeseverything in one; others provide simply the childcare element but they tell the parents—and I'm used to this as a parent myself, although mine are older now—'Mr Irranca-Davies, when you sign on, just to be aware, ifwe do take your kids down to St Fagans, there's going to be a little bit of a charge for that' and so on.Hefin David AM: That's fair enough, but it would be the lowest-income working families who would be most undulyaffected by that, because the higher income families would be able to afford those add-ons, the lower income ones won't. Isn't that a concern?Huw Irranca-Davies AM: If money was absolutely no object, then I thinkyou'd be looking at quite a different offer, but it has to be affordable within what we've got as well. The fact that parents, including those who are on lower incomes, are used to currently discriminating betweenproviders, not only with childcare settings but also within school settings as well, where very often schools now will say, 'We're doing something extra'—Hefin David AM: That may be the case, but it's not fair, is it?HuwIrranca-Davies AM: In a pure argument about equity, and if funding was no object and if the burdens of austerity were released and we were told we had money—'You can do what you want'—I think you'd be looking ata very different approach. But within what we have, I think this works very, very well indeed, because it's very transparent for parents who are used to making these decisions. It says, 'Here you have 10 hours of thefoundation education offer. You have the additional hours here provided with the childcare offer. But within those additional hours, you may be with a local provider in the middle of Powys that actually says, "Within thatwe provide everything"; you may be with a provider that says, "Well, actually, we do a whistles and bells thing and we take them out on trips, but it's up to you if you want to come, and here's the additional cost—".'Parents are used to making that decision and realistically, in terms of what we can do with this offer, this is actually—the arguments around this have been well rehearsed both with providers and with parents and we'renot getting any concerns that this is going to unnecessarily disadvantage. In a total fairness argument, would you make it universal and with no additional charges? Well, possibly you would. But we work within therealistic—Hefin David AM: Or have a lower top-end income limit.Huw Irranca-Davies AM: Depending on how the Bill progresses in the main Chamber and when it goes through committee, there's that flexibility built intothe Bill that those things can be looked at over time and adjusted. For the moment, I think there is an attraction, in terms of the upper limit, of saying: one—'Let's try not to add additional complexity, let's go with ascheme that's already working its way through the system, which is, if you like, what they're doing in England, and not add additional complexity. But, secondly, there is an appeal to universality, curiously, in saying toall parents—and I say this regardless of political hues across the committee here—there's an attraction when you say, 'Let's make an offer focused on working parents as it is', as universal to those working parents aspossible, and avoid the administrative costs of saying, 'Well, let's take the upper limit down to £80 or £60 or £55.' There's always the question of how much additional cost is incurred in actually doing that tweak ofcomplexity. We have looked at it.Lynne Neagle AM: Darren on this.Darren Millar AM: Just to ask, I mean, the labour market costs are changing, aren't they? You've got the national living wageincreasing—[Inaudible.]—that's going to have a bearing, isn't it, on the affordability of this project in terms of the childcare offer and the suitability of the £4.50 per hour regime? By the time it's fully rolled out, ofcourse, that £4.50 rate is going to be a number of years old, for example. Do you have plans to review that? Where is it headed? Because it's certainly not going to be enough in the future.Huw Irranca-Davies AM: Itdepends how far in the future you're looking. I have to say, the feedback that we're having at the moment from organisations like the Professional Association for Childcare and Early Years and from the National DayNurseries Association Wales and others is that this is the right rate and it's suitable not only today but for the foreseeable future of rolling this out.Darren Millar AM: But they've raised concerns about the nationalliving wage implications, haven't they, as well?Huw Irranca-Davies AM: Of course, and I think it's incumbent on us as well to not—Darren Millar AM: So, it's not fair to say that they haven't raised concerns about therate.Huw Irranca-Davies AM: Yes, but what they're not arguing for at the moment is for this rate to be raised.Darren Millar AM: But they have suggested that in meetings—Huw Irranca-Davies AM: That infuture—Darren Millar AM: Absolutely.Huw Irranca-Davies AM: Well, of course, in future, any Minister, any committee, will want to come back and look at—is the hourly rate, as one element of the scheme, appropriate to


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Um {disfmarker} Welcome at uh {disfmarker} at the kick off meeting of our uh latest project .IndustrialDesigner: {vocalsound}Project Manager: I hope you all have been uh updated about it .Industrial Designer: Yeah .Project Manager: Good .User Interface: So . Yes .Project Manager: So w we will try to structure this uhmeeting with an a with an agenda uh as presented here . Um after the opening we will tr get acquainted to each other .User Interface: {vocalsound}Project Manager: See what our roles are in this project . So , um{disfmarker} We have been provided with uh some uh w technical tools to uh {disfmarker} to communicate and to well , learn from each other's plans uh as I can say um so w we will also try to uh to get acquainted tothis tools so they are also new to me I don't know whether you worked with them before . Um then we will come to the uh to the to the actual project plan . You all know I hope {vocalsound} how it's about uh the uhnew r remote control we are going going to design .Marketing: Mm-hmm .User Interface: Total .Project Manager: Uh then we will uh discuss uh , well , how it should be and uh {disfmarker} wh what uh what our newproduct should look lite {disfmarker} like . And uh well then uh after some twenty five minutes I hope uh we can end this meeting . So . Um basically this is about a uh a new c remote control . Um {disfmarker} We{disfmarker} When you design a new product you of {disfmarker} uh you of course want it to be original . Be uh {disfmarker} we want to be distinguished , mm ? People uh want to uh when they look at the shelf wantto think , well that's the product I I need . So it needs to be trendy . I mean trendy is what people want , so then I w they will buy our product . But then , uh , it also should work uh user friendly and uh otherwisepeople uh uh well it will not be uh be rated very well in consumer uh articles and like that .Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}Project Manager: So , the general outline of uh new project will be we first uh go through afunctional design phase . Um {disfmarker} You all get uh um certain task uh in this uh in this phase and uh then we will meet again and uh discuss this functional design . And the same holds for the uh ph two phasesuh after this , the conceptual design and after that a a more detailed design in which the the final project should get its definite shape . Alright , but first we will do some uh tool training . In all in front of you uh you seeuh the uh notebooks and w uh n note blocks and we have here a a {disfmarker} a {disfmarker} a white-board .User Interface: WhiteboMarketing: Mm-hmm .Project Manager: And um well it should work uh{disfmarker} I've read it from my uh from some colleague that it should work with some kind of toolbar . I didn't find out yet how it work , but maybe one of you did , so {disfmarker} Um {disfmarker}IndustrialDesigner: Under documents in the shared folder . Okay .Project Manager: Yes . Do {disfmarker} Do we have to say something about that ? I I I'm not fully updated about this shared folder uh .Industrial Designer: Yeah, I guess we'll have a shared folder uh with documents that we can share . And uh , yeah .Project Manager: Yes well we will then find out ho how it works .Industrial Designer: Yes .Project Manager: Um . Well , thisseems to me , yes , some computer program but I didn't find it yet . So , we'll come to that later . So , uh now we will try out the white-board we have here . So , I would suggest uh {disfmarker}Industrial Designer:Each of us is going .Project Manager: Well , yes , um we uh we should try to t to draw on it and then well it should be smart some way . I {disfmarker} {vocalsound} I'm not really sure how this works , but{disfmarker}Industrial Designer: Okay , shall I start ?Marketing: Mm . Yeah .Project Manager: Yes ,User Interface: Yeah ,Project Manager: a good idea Mael .User Interface: you can start it you know .Marketing: I thinkfor us it's just like a normal whiteboard , but they'll be recording what we write down .Industrial Designer: So , iUser Interface: No they will record through that . There's a sensor over thereMarketing: Mm . Mm .UserInterface: which is going to record the strokes that you make .Marketing: But for us it's just like a normal whiteboard .Project Manager: Okay .User Interface: Yeah .Project Manager: 'Kay .User Interface:{vocalsound}Industrial Designer: But it's {disfmarker}Marketing: {vocalsound}Industrial Designer: Actually , I think I cannot go with uh {disfmarker}Project Manager: You {disfmarker} you {disfmarker} D doesn't itwork ? Maybe someo Maybe {disfmarker} maybe Anna , maybe you can start .Marketing: Mm-hmm .Industrial Designer: Yeah .Project Manager: Then he can maybe find out to get his cord right .Marketing: I have todraw .Project Manager: So um {disfmarker} L Why don't you draw uh {vocalsound} your favourite animal on on th on the white-board .Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}Marketing: M my {disfmarker} my favouriteanimal . {vocalsound} Sorry this is all tangled up here .Project Manager: Oh , I see uh {disfmarker}Marketing: That's better .User Interface: Yeah .Marketing: {vocalsound}Project Manager: Yeah . Yes . Mm . So draw it. We will try to guess what it is . {vocalsound}Marketing: Mm-hmm . {vocalsound} I'm a very bad drawer .Project Manager: {vocalsound}Marketing: Weird . Um . You're not gonna be able to guess from my drawing .I'm a bad drawer . Okay .Project Manager: Mm .Marketing: They're ears , by the way .User Interface: 's a cat .Marketing: No . Um close though . Okay so {disfmarker} like a pet animal .Industrial Designer:{vocalsound} Okay .Marketing: {vocalsound} Like a cat .User Interface: Yeah .Project Manager: It's like a cat , so I guess it's a cat . {vocalsound}Marketing: No , not a cat though .Project Manager: What is this now?User Interface: Ah you forget about it .Industrial Designer: You're on the knife .User Interface: Yeah , uh I think it's fine . I just don't want to carry it off . Man , this wires , eh ? We need a wireless microphone.Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}User Interface: You know ? Pro specially we should next project we should take l like that .Marketing: Okay . So .Project Manager: So ,Marketing: It's not a cat ,Project Manager: that'sthe cat .Marketing: it's a dog .Project Manager: Oh .User Interface: So .Industrial Designer: Mael .Project Manager: It's a dog .Marketing: Yes .Project Manager: So but that's also kind of cat ,User Interface: OhProjectManager: isn't it ?User Interface: the dog doesn't have a tail ?Marketing: {vocalsound} It's got a tail then .Project Manager: B bo both predators .User Interface: Yeah , sure , yeah .Marketing: Yeah yeah .UserInterface: I thought so . The dogs have a tail .Marketing: So do cats .Project Manager: So , thank you . Uh d did you uh work out cord ?Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}User Interface: {vocalsound}Marketing: Andyou guessed cats without a tail . {vocalsound}User Interface: Yeah .Industrial Designer: Yeah , I think I will go without {disfmarker} without it ,Marketing: Okay .Project Manager: Okay .Industrial Designer: right ?UserInterface: It'll still not extend , right ? It's not up to that .Marketing: Okay , there you go . So what favourite characteristics . Uh . Dogs are always friendly and loyal and fun . A horse ?User Interface: It's a horse.Marketing: {vocalsound} This is why you're the designer . And I'm marketing . {vocalsound}Project Manager: Yes . Yes , yes this is {disfmarker} Yes definitely a horse . Yes . Oh very good . So {disfmarker}Marketing:Ah {vocalsound}Project Manager: I suppose it {disfmarker}User Interface: Ah I think you can put that .Marketing: Mm-hmm . That's it . {vocalsound} A blue and black zebra {vocalsound} .User Interface:{vocalsound} {vocalsound}Marketing: {vocalsound}Project Manager: Yes . Can {disfmarker} you can meet them in Africa , I think . Yes . Very good . So {disfmarker}Marketing: The very rare blue zebras . Yes .UserInterface: {gap} I'll tell to get it off my {disfmarker}Project Manager: Ma Matthew ?User Interface: Uh ? Mm-hmm .Project Manager: So {disfmarker}Marketing: You got a lot of room here .Project Manager: Maybe{disfmarker}Marketing: You can probably reach .User Interface: Oh y it's not for that .Marketing: No ?User Interface: No .Project Manager: I hope you have some space in your uh the horse of uh Mael .User Interface:Okay . Yeah . So what should I draw ? Mm . He has already to do cat .Marketing: I took a dog . {vocalsound}Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}Marketing: Um . A mouse ?Project Manager: This looks likes a cat who hasbeen driven over . {vocalsound}Marketing: {vocalsound} Okay .Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Yeah . {vocalsound}Project Manager: {vocalsound}Industrial Designer: And we should sum up its favourite charascharacteristics , right ?Marketing: Mm-hmm . {vocalsound}Project Manager: Yes , the moustache .Industrial Designer: So {disfmarker}Project Manager: That's {disfmarker} that's definitely a cat .Marketing: Mm-hmm.Industrial Designer: Uh yeah . And i Th They like to sleep , that's why you said you they are like this .Project Manager: {vocalsound} It's quite , you know {disfmarker} relaxed situation .Marketing:{vocalsound}Industrial Designer: Yeah . {vocalsound}Project Manager: Yes .Marketing: Mm-hmm .Project Manager: {vocalsound} Yes , okay . {vocalsound}Marketing: {vocalsound}Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}She has the small legs .Project Manager: Th thank you , Matthew .Industrial Designer: Yeah . {vocalsound} Thank you , Matthew .Marketing: {vocalsound} It's a very big rat . Or a very small cat . {vocalsound}ProjectManager: {vocalsound}Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Perfect . {vocalsound} Oh a rat , okay .Project Manager: Yes , this is certain uh {disfmarker} some contribution to our project . {vocalsound}Marketing: Mm'kay .Industrial Designer: And you , {gap}Marketing: Your turn .Project Manager: So . Let's see . Which animal has not been drawn yet . So you've all drawn land animals ,Marketing: {vocalsound}Project Manager: sowhy not draw an animal from the water .Industrial Designer: A bird . Okay , in the water .Marketing: {vocalsound} {vocalsound} Ah I don't know what that is . It's a bit {disfmarker}Industrial Designer: Mm .ProjectManager: {vocalsound} Mm . {vocalsound}Marketing: It's a bit hard to guess . {vocalsound}Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Yeah . {vocalsound}Marketing: {vocalsound}User Interface: So {disfmarker}IndustrialDesigner: Put it colours . Maybe it would help us .Marketing: Yeah .Project Manager: Yes .User Interface: The cat is going to eat the fish or the rat ?Industrial Designer: With different pen widths .Marketing:{vocalsound} Mm-hmm.$Project Manager: {vocalsound} So {disfmarker}Marketing: Oh , it's a shark now .Industrial Designer: Ah it's a shark , yeah .Marketing: {vocalsound}Project Manager: Oh , yes , why not?Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}Project Manager: {vocalsound} Good idea .User Interface: Ah it's a baby shark , it looks to me ,Marketing: Mm .User Interface: you know it's going to eat the cat rather than the cateating the fish , no ?Industrial Designer: Oh .Marketing: Now it's a swordfish .Project Manager: {vocalsound} Why not . A swordfish .Marketing: {vocalsound}Industrial Designer: You have some in {disfmarker} inAustralia , right ?Marketing: Swordfish .Project Manager: {vocalsound}Industrial Designer: Yeah .Marketing: Um , maybe .Industrial Designer: I dunno .Marketing: I've never seen one , no .Industrial Designer: Oh well. Yeah .Project Manager: I hope it still works . So {disfmarker}Industrial Designer: Perfect . So I dunno if we need to spend time on that , actually {vocalsound} But uh {disfmarker}User Interface: You should go for thenext one it seems to me .Project Manager: W Well , this uh this tool seemed to work .Marketing: Mm-hmm .Industrial Designer: Yeah , exactly , yeah .Project Manager: {vocalsound} Let's continue to uh {disfmarker}to the real stuff .Industrial Designer: Wow .Project Manager: Um our project uh finance uh thing . Uh when we are {disfmarker} and when w you are uh going to design w uh we must keep in mind that the selling priceof the product uh will be about twenty five Euros , so when designing a project uh I also look at you uh Mael , keep in mind uh uh uh {disfmarker} People uhUser Interface: Twenty four .Industrial Designer: Yeah.Project Manager: want to get the feeling this is a twenty five Euro project uh pr um product .Industrial Designer: Per remote control ,Marketing: Mm .Industrial Designer: yeah ? Per project .Project Manager: Yes . Okay. UmIndustrial Designer: {vocalsound}Project Manager: more interesting for our company {vocalsound} of course , p uh profit aim , about fifty million Euro . So we have to sell uh quite a lot of this uh {vocalsound} umthings . Uh we will try to uh to get at a international market uh so um it will be I think mainly Europe and uh Northern America ,User Interface: Ah yeah , the sale man , four million .Project Manager: maybe some uhAsian countries . Um also important for you all is um the the product uh production cost must be maximal uh twelve uh twelve Euro and fifty cents .Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} So it's half of the selling price , if Iam good in mathematics .Project Manager: Yes , of course . Uh um I mean we still have to uh to make a profit , huh ?User Interface: They have to sell at least four million to make a profit {vocalsound}IndustrialDesigner: Of course .Marketing: Mm . {vocalsound}Project Manager: You all have to be paid .Marketing: Mm .Project Manager: Excuse me ?User Interface: Ah we have to make {disfmarker} we have to sell at least fourmillion to make our own profit . Fifty millIndustrial Designer: Oh you're g very good in mathematics .Marketing: Yes . {vocalsound}User Interface: {vocalsound}Project Manager: Yes , indeed .User Interface:{vocalsound}Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Four million .Project Manager: So uh well I think w when we are working on the international market , uh in principle it has enough customersIndustrial Designer: Yeah.Project Manager: uh so when we have a good product we uh we could uh meet this this aim , I think . So , that about finance . And uh now just let have some discussion about what is a good remote control and uh wellkeep in mind this this first point , it has to be original , it has to be trendy , it has to be user friendly . Um , maybe someone can mention some additional uh prerequisites for a good remote control .Marketing: Mm-hmm.User Interface: Of course it should have a on off button . {vocalsound}Marketing: Mm-hmm .Project Manager: Yes , well i it should have the the the the expected functionality uh of a remote control .Marketing: Mm .Yeah .User Interface: Yeah , s and it depends what application you are using it for .Marketing: Mm .User Interface: You might need uh {disfmarker}Project Manager: We wer we were thinking television . Uh .Marketing:Mm .User Interface: We are targ targeting the television set . So ,Marketing: Mm .User Interface: you need to record the channels .Marketing: Yeah .Project Manager: Mm-hmm .User Interface: {vocalsound} You needto browse the {disfmarker} browse the channels in upward downward way ,Marketing: Mm .Project Manager: Yes , yes . Th th that's very handy I {disfmarker} I always miss it and {disfmarker} on some remotecontrols that you can go channel up or down ins instead of retyping the number , especially when you have a lot of channels .User Interface: Uh {disfmarker} And {disfmarker}Marketing: Mm . Mm .User Interface: Uh ,and {disfmarker}Industrial Designer: And uh just before starting the detailed discussion , maybe we are the marketing guy ? Or {disfmarker}Marketing: I'm marketing .User Interface: Marketing .Industrial Designer: thSo you are the marketing .Marketing: Yep .Industrial Designer: And you are in the u use user interface uh design .User Interface: Yeah .Project Manager: Yes .User Interface: Yeah .Industrial Designer: So just{disfmarker} yeah I wanted to to be sure .User Interface: Sure .Industrial Designer: And I I'm the the industrial designerMarketing: Mm-hmm .Project Manager: Yes .User Interface: {vocalsound}Industrial Designer:okay .User Interface: Oh .Industrial Designer: Because I I don't know you very well , actually , but yeah .User Interface: I'm Matthew . You know . {vocalsound}Industrial Designer: Okay . Mael .User Interface: Matth suhIndustrial Designer: Happy to meet you .Marketing: Anna .User Interface: Anna .Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Okay . It's very uh {disfmarker}Project Manager: A and I'm Nanne .User Interface: And um uhMatthew , yeah .Project Manager: So {disfmarker}User Interface: I thi think you know me ,Industrial Designer: Uh so yeah uh {disfmarker} Just uh on your web page but uh yeah not uh {disfmarker} not face to face.Project Manager: Yes .User Interface: yeah ? right yeah .Project Manager: So . Um {disfmarker} SUser Interface: So .Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} So mm {disfmarker}Project Manager: S sMarketing: Mm.Project Manager: Are there some other very important things to to do {disfmarker} well ,User Interface: So {disfmarker}Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} So IProject Manager: to specify in this first phase of of theproject . So the browse function , as you m mentioned .Marketing: Mm . Yeah . Oth yeah .User Interface: And uh , you'd need the usual ones , like the changing the volume , changing the the channel and then{disfmarker} you uh {disfmarker}Project Manager: Yes . Yeah .User Interface: Today we have uh um teletext and all those things . Tomorrow you might have a some more functions which might come through that , so{disfmarker}Project Manager: Yes .Industrial Designer: Like what ? Like internet on the on T_V_ ?Marketing: Mm .User Interface: Yeah I_P_O_ or . Now we are looking for television things or I_P_ . For examplepersonal video recorder and all those stuffs are coming up .Industrial Designer: Yeah .Marketing: Mm . But we can't really design for something that hasn't been invented yet .User Interface: Yeah . Ah it's {disfmarker}it's {disfmarker} it's {disfmarker} it's coming up , actually . The personal video recorder and all those things it is coming up .Project Manager: Mm , well uh I I think {disfmarker} Uh w y you two should {disfmarker}should , I think , think this over uh w espec what , what functionality .Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Actually , yeahUser Interface: Let's {disfmarker} Let's take {disfmarker}Industrial Designer: w {vocalsound} Ofcourse , and first before um designing the func well thinking about the functionalities , we need to know what are the user requirements .Marketing: Mm . Yeah .Industrial Designer: Um then if they need internet , thenwe would be able to to p to propose something with uh uh T_V_ over I_P_ .Project Manager: Mm-hmm .Marketing: Yeah . Mm . Yeah . But {disfmarker} Ninety percent of the time , ninety nine percent of the time ,people will be using the main functions , the volume , the different channels , so we can have all the fancy things as well but the main controls need to be very obvious and very easy to use .Project Manager: Mm mm


Project Manager: {vocalsound}Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}Project Manager: Right well . Welcome to the {disfmarker} what should be the last of these meetings and uh it looks like we've uh done a good job hereand uh we'll just go through the the final uh the final details . Um okay , oh the um th the the minutes of the last meeting uh I think we'll take those as read , um {disfmarker} OkayIndustrial Designer:{vocalsound}Project Manager: the um th the the next uh thing we we we'll have a look at the uh th have a look at the prototypes and uh look at the uh evaluation criteria and finance and then uh uh just tidy up withproduction and um and then we can close . Um So f if if you'd like to uh present your your proposals .Industrial Designer: Uh okay we basically have the same kinda lay-out here it's just um you hold it like this and itgets kinda moulded to the to the shape of your hand , basically . Um on the left we've got the scroll for the volume , on the right we have buttons for the channels up and down and that kinda {disfmarker} so you canhold it and scroll , or you can hold it and and push .Project Manager: {vocalsound}Industrial Designer: Uh this is the power key , um it's kinda like the biggest so you know how to turn on .Project Manager: Uh-huh.Industrial Designer: Uh that's the little menu key . This is the infra-red section so you g it'll be sending rays and if you're you know pointing it like that it can send it ,Project Manager: Yep ,Industrial Designer: or if youhold it up like that it'll send it .Project Manager: yeah , good , good .Industrial Designer: Uh we got a microphone there which for all the voice commandsProject Manager: Uh-huh .Industrial Designer: so you can youknow talk to it like thatProject Manager: Yep ,Industrial Designer: and it'll still understand .Project Manager: right .Industrial Designer: Um the logo is down down there umProject Manager: Uh-huh .User Interface: Mm.Industrial Designer: and {gap} has the cover on itUser Interface: SIndustrial Designer: and you can see like it just kinda goes {disfmarker} the red bit's the cover and it kinda goes over everythingProject Manager:Yep , yep ,Industrial Designer: and then there's holes for the buttons to come through . Um .Project Manager: mm-hmm .User Interface: And so we figured it would be kind of you know a light weight plastic ,ProjectManager: Uh-huh .Industrial Designer: Mm .User Interface: just kind of a light {vocalsound} non-descript greyProject Manager: Yep yep .User Interface: so that people'll wanna buy the coversProject Manager: Yep.User Interface: and then the covers will be that sort of rubbery material like they make iPod covers ,Project Manager: {gap} showing me age ,User Interface: so they kinda just stretch over .Industrial Designer: Mm.Project Manager: I don't know what i c iPod covers are like .Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}User Interface: {vocalsound} Yeah , wellProject Manager: Yeah {gap} yeah .User Interface: I I didn't know that but yeahthey're kind of {disfmarker} it's just kind of a rubbery {disfmarker}Project Manager: Uh-huh .Industrial Designer: Yeah .User Interface: and that way {disfmarker} you knowProject Manager: Okay ,User Interface:spongy like is something that people wantedProject Manager: yep , right .User Interface: and it just sort of stretches overIndustrial Designer: Mm-hmm .User Interface: and that way I think probably helps protect it alittle bit too as wellProject Manager: Okay .Industrial Designer: But it's also e e easier to put on versus like mobile coversUser Interface: and {disfmarker}Industrial Designer: you actually have to screw them on andstuff and you kinda sometimes have to get someone to do that for you . This is very much you should be able to stretch it over yourselfProject Manager: Yep .User Interface: just kinda stretch it overIndustrial Designer:and it'll be fine .Project Manager: Okay , good yeah .Industrial Designer: Yeah .User Interface: and it'll just stay onIndustrial Designer: Yeah .User Interface: and then the buttons come through and so {disfmarker} andthen the {disfmarker} each one of 'em on the very end will have the logo with the yellow circle and the R_R_ .Project Manager: Yep , right .Industrial Designer: Li that'll be {gap} the covers as well , yeah yeah .ProjectManager: Yeah , yeah .User Interface: Yeah .Project Manager: I mean tha it's it's a detailed point , I just wondered {disfmarker} I mean h how will people put these down I wonder ?User Interface: Like that .ProjectManager: Right . Okay {gap} for some strange re reason I had it in my mind that they'd put them down verticallyIndustrial Designer: Yeah it could stand , yeah .Project Manager: but uh uh {disfmarker}User Interface:{vocalsound} Oh .Industrial Designer: Well we could broaden the {disfmarker} broaden it out a bitProject Manager: {vocalsound} Yeah , uh noIndustrial Designer: so it would stand like that .Project Manager: because{gap} particularly if they've dif if they're gonna have it as a you know as a fashion itemIndustrial Designer: Yeah , {gap} standing .Project Manager: uh I mean it it's uh it it's just I mean it's just a minor detailed point ,but um as you say you can just make the base a little bit bigger and uh {disfmarker}Industrial Designer: Yeah , we could just widen it out uhProject Manager: Yeah and uh it just needs another uh another logosomewhere is is is is all it gives gives people the option and if if say if they've got them um {gap}Industrial Designer: Mm . Mm .Project Manager: because {gap} actually have several {gap} upon the uh{disfmarker}Marketing: Could have one for your stereo , one for your {gap} D_V_ player .Industrial Designer: Mm , yeah , yeah .Project Manager: Yeah , well .User Interface: Yeah .Industrial Designer: Have to{disfmarker} if we just lengthen it I guessProject Manager: {vocalsound} YeahIndustrial Designer: so it comes down to the base of the handUser Interface: Yeah ,Project Manager: but that that's uh {disfmarker} butuhUser Interface: just kind of {disfmarker}Industrial Designer: and then flatten it outProject Manager: noIndustrial Designer: and could sit there .Project Manager: the the the overall uh the overall concept is uh{disfmarker}Industrial Designer: Yeah , {vocalsound} mm .User Interface: Or just make it little .Project Manager: yeah yeah ,Industrial Designer: Yeah . Yeah .User Interface: Somewhere like thatProject Manager: nono , I mean that's {disfmarker} these uh {disfmarker}User Interface: so it just sort of {disfmarker}Industrial Designer: We might {gap} have to lengthen itMarketing: Yeah I kinda had a a kinda {disfmarker} a naturalkind of a ideaIndustrial Designer: so it kinda {disfmarker} your hand still holds it and have it there ,User Interface: Yeah .Industrial Designer: yeah , yeah , yeah like that , like that {gap} . Yeah .Marketing: where it'slike more of a kind of {disfmarker} like a kinda maybe slightly like thinner ,User Interface: BuProject Manager: Yeah .Marketing: yeah , kinda like that kinda {gap} like a flower or a plantProject Manager: But uh yeah{disfmarker} but no th but the {disfmarker} yeah the the the {disfmarker}Industrial Designer: Mm .Marketing: for the more natural kinda {disfmarker}User Interface: {gap} .Project Manager: Yeah , yeah , yeah,Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} The final product would actually stand up , yeah {vocalsound} .Project Manager: I mean it it's uh {disfmarker} wouldn'tUser Interface: {gap} fall over .Project Manager: wouldn't dothat , indeed yeah . But th th but th yeah th b theUser Interface: Yeah .Project Manager: these were all minor minor uh minor details ,Industrial Designer: Yeah , yeah .User Interface: Yeah .Project Manager: I think theuh the basic concept i i is is absolutely bang onIndustrial Designer: Yeah .User Interface: {gap} . 'S a little longer .Project Manager: and the {disfmarker} iIndustrial Designer: Wee {vocalsound} {disfmarker}ProjectManager: it certainly meets our criteria of being uh {disfmarker} of you know looking different .Industrial Designer: Mm .Project Manager: Um , soUser Interface: Yeah .Project Manager: good that's that that's excellent.Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}Project Manager: Um right let us um What's on the next one ? Oh right yes , let's have a look at the um f finance . Um , now we're given a a clear design brief , uh if I {gap} get the uhspreadsheet up . Oh .Marketing: Uh yeah , {vocalsound} just click there .Project Manager: {gap} .Marketing: Uh the the maximise button .Project Manager: Oh right . Ah . Good , this is why we need to make thesethings simple so that the uh the the the boss can understand .Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}User Interface: {vocalsound}Marketing: {vocalsound}Project Manager: Now I've um {vocalsound} this is the company'suh uh costing for for various uh uh aspects of design and I I I've treated some of these slightly uh liberally given the constraints placed on us , um I wouldn't know for in for instance if if they require us to have it in thecorporate colours , then that is not a special colour , that's a that's a standard colour . Uh , so we're just simply on batteries , the the one th the one decision I've had to make is that um we're {vocalsound} we will haveto find a s a regular standard chip to to do this with and I I um I'm I'm I'm certain that they they are around so , um that I don't think is a a serious problem . The uh the the voice sensor is is expensive but we we madea a basic decision that that was absolutely fundamental to the to the design so that that has to stay . Um then again the the the the shape of the case means that it's it's expensive to uh um l to make 'cause of the theth the double curves but on the other hand because of our overall fashion concept um we we should exceed the the sales targets . Um it's simply made of plastic so th that's uh that's no problem and uh um just becausethe whole {gap} the colour of the the whole thing that's uh uh there's some cost there . Um and uh we haven't actually got a scroll wheel we we we got push buttons and and a simple uh um {vocalsound} slider so umand the and the the buttons are uh uh well I do don't know that they're special colour . Anyway the the costings uh come in at {disfmarker} exactly on target at twelve point five uh but I thi I think we have a a verystrong case to argue that uh what what we've got is is so in innovative and uh and different that um {vocalsound} any any slight compromise we have to make on on cost is is offset by the uh you know the uh you knowthe the the the concept of it being a a fashion accessory and and having the the interchangeable coversIndustrial Designer: Mm .Project Manager: so uh um you know the {disfmarker} if if if the management expect usto be techno {gap} again {gap} fail again {disfmarker} technologically innovative um that they they have to accept that we we can't operate absolutely within uh the constraints that they give ,Industrial Designer: Mm.Project Manager: so uh we we we present this as the uh the company's uh the the company's way forward and uh uh I I think we can argue that we we have uh come in on on budget . Um . Okay , uh . So um . Doesanybody want to uh {disfmarker} uh Andrew do you want {disfmarker} what do you want to say about um the uh yeah the evaluationMarketing: Evaluation .Project Manager: where where you know well where wherewe're where where we're at ?Marketing: The {vocalsound} the product or the project ? {vocalsound}Project Manager: The the the well the {disfmarker} I meant the product .Marketing: Um , well well my presentationjust now ?Project Manager: Yeah .Marketing: Sure , uh can I get the {disfmarker}Project Manager: Oh sorry yeah um , mm .Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}Project Manager: {vocalsound} Mm . More loud clicks inthe microphone .Marketing: Cheers . {vocalsound} There we go , oh . Method of evaluation {vocalsound} testing the product was to just {gap} if it met all the criteria {disfmarker} all the conditions that we set out toset out to solve , from the point of view of the the consumer and the management . So what I've been asked to do is , on the whiteboardProject Manager: {vocalsound}Marketing: um gauge our team response to thesequestions . So , on a scale of one to seven , one being true and seven being being false .Project Manager: {vocalsound} Seven being a nice round number to work to .Marketing: {vocalsound} Yeah . And then at theend just take an averageProject Manager: Tr On for true and seven for flase . Yes .Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}Marketing: Yes {vocalsound} .User Interface: {vocalsound}Industrial Designer:{vocalsound}Marketing: So uh . {vocalsound} So , look at these questions . Is the device f flashy and fashionable ?Project Manager: Well I think most definitely .Industrial Designer: Yeah I'd say definitely a one yeah.User Interface: I think it is yeah .Marketing: So uh {disfmarker} and also uh technologically innovative ?Project Manager: Yes the voice technology indeed .Industrial Designer: Yeah , defi yeah , yeahUser Interface:Yeah .Marketing: Easy to use ?Project Manager: I don't see we could've made it any easier .Industrial Designer: Yeah .User Interface: Yeah .Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}Marketing: Uh suitable for the consumer ?That was um {vocalsound} {disfmarker}Project Manager: Totally .Industrial Designer: Yeah definitely .User Interface: Yeah I think it made {disfmarker} we met all of the consumerIndustrial Designer: Yeah .Marketing:Yeah .User Interface: wants .Marketing: Uh is it complicated ?Project Manager: No .User Interface: No .Marketing: Doing pretty well so far aren't we ? {vocalsound} Uh functional ?Project Manager: Yeah .IndustrialDesigner: Yeah definitely .User Interface: Yeah .Marketing: Um . {vocalsound} Where are we ?Project Manager: {gap} found easily . {gap} yeahMarketing: We've b built in the the speech , where are you , function.Project Manager: I mean that's that's {disfmarker}Industrial Designer: Yeah . Yeah . Yeah , mm-hmm .Project Manager: Yeah .User Interface: Yeah .Marketing: Uh-huh .Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}ProjectManager: Does it take long to learn to use ? Shouldn't .Industrial Designer: No , not at all .Marketing: Mm-hmm . And uh , what else ? {vocalsound} The R_S_I_ compares to the current standards ,Project Manager:{vocalsound} Less buttons so it must be .Industrial Designer: Uh {disfmarker}Marketing: well . We weIndustrial Designer: YeahMarketing: uh yeah it was our {disfmarker} it was a {disfmarker}Industrial Designer:{gap} it is sorta the the handle more ergonomically correct as well .Marketing: we made an actual effort to {disfmarker}Industrial Designer: {gap} yeah .User Interface: Yeah .Project Manager: So yeah , um um.Marketing: {vocalsound} Um will device appeal to all age groups ?Project Manager: I think it will because I mean uh old older people who can't manage the buttons anyway will actually probably like the like like thevoice bit so {disfmarker}Industrial Designer: Mm .User Interface: I think so .Marketing: Yeah ,Industrial Designer: Mm .Marketing: uh that's a good call , yeah . Well we had the we had the data {gap} saying that oldpeople will be less likely to pay extra money but the funct the increased functionality , {vocalsound} the e ease of use of the device might make up for that .Project Manager: And it's it's it's {disfmarker}{vocalsound}Industrial Designer: Mm .Project Manager: well I don't think we're actually charging a particular premium anyway , in the end , so {disfmarker}Industrial Designer: I I I think it will tend to appeal more toyounger aged groupsMarketing: Mm .User Interface: Yeah .Industrial Designer: just 'cause we have gone with the fashion focusProject Manager: Yeah . Yeah .Industrial Designer: and the younger people tend to{disfmarker} would be more conscious of that aspect of it , but um I think it should still appeal on a certain level to everybody , yeah .Project Manager: It will appeal f for dif for different reasons but it's it's uh{disfmarker}Industrial Designer: Yeah , yeah .User Interface: Yeah I think just the simplicity of itProject Manager: yeah yeahIndustrial Designer: Yeah , yeah .User Interface: andProject Manager: so I I {disfmarker}yeah I {disfmarker}User Interface: not having to learn to programmeIndustrial Designer: {vocalsound} Yeah .User Interface: and not having you know a million buttons .Project Manager: Yeah , so I think we canreasonably say it's another another one ,Industrial Designer: Mm .Marketing: {vocalsound}Project Manager: why not ?Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}User Interface: {vocalsound}Marketing: Uh can you just click themy mouse to move onto next page ? Uh , yeah and what h did we make the management's {disfmarker}Project Manager: {gap} in in in in my interpretation of management's instructions uh is that yes it it meets therequirementIndustrial Designer: {vocalsound} {vocalsound}Project Manager: is t it's television only ,Industrial Designer: Yep .Project Manager: it's it's simple to use ,Industrial Designer: Mm-hmm .Project Manager:um it's it's it's within budget ,User Interface: Under the cost .Industrial Designer: Mm-hmm . Yep .Project Manager: um I {disfmarker} it's uh {disfmarker} yes an an any minor points we we we argue .Marketing:{vocalsound}Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}Marketing: Um .Project Manager: So uh I I think we've done an amazing jobIndustrial Designer: Yep .Project Manager: in uhIndustrial Designer: {vocalsound} Well doneus {vocalsound} .User Interface: {vocalsound}Marketing: {vocalsound} Okay .Project Manager: {vocalsound} coming up with what {disfmarker}Marketing: {vocalsound} So uh one two three four five six seven eightnine ten eleven . Eleven divided by {vocalsound} eleven's one so {vocalsound} equals average of one .Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}User Interface: Yeah , {vocalsound} .Project Manager: {gap} Need a need acalculator for that .Marketing: And that roughly concludes my evaluation of the of the product .Project Manager: Okay ,Industrial Designer: Excellent .Project Manager: {gap} nick the cable back then .IndustrialDesigner: {vocalsound} Oh noUser Interface: I mixed up the colours a little bit .Industrial Designer: that's {gap} {disfmarker}User Interface: {vocalsound} I think I {gap} all wrong .Project Manager: {vocalsound}Ooh . Right do um either of you want to uh say anything ?Industrial Designer: Uh .Project Manager: Mm .User Interface: Mm .Project Manager: Before I uh {disfmarker}Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}User Interface:Ps I don't think so ,Project Manager: No .Industrial Designer: {gap} .User Interface: I mean I think we worked well togetherProject Manager: Yeah .User Interface: and looked really at what the consumers wanted andwhat we were trying to makeProject Manager: Yeah .User Interface: and you know , seemed to discuss things pretty wellIndustrial Designer: Mm-hmm .User Interface: and come to group consensus and{disfmarker}Project Manager: Well that's right , I mean th this this slide here I mean the satisfaction with uh room for creativity , I meanIndustrial Designer: Mm . Yeah , definitely .Project Manager: I think we'veallowed ourselves uh as much creativity as the uh the the the product uh allows .User Interface: Yeah .Project Manager: Um I won't comment on leadership , uh teamwork I think we've uh {disfmarker} I thinkeverybody's uh worked pretty well together .Industrial Designer: Mm-hmm .Project Manager: Um we've just about coped with the whiteboard and digital pens , uh I think the results speak for itselfIndustrial Designer:Mm .Project Manager: and new ideas found , um , again gi no given relatively everyday product , I think we've v very uh very effectively come up with a a new uhUser Interface: Yeah .Industrial Designer: Yep .ProjectManager: uh a new approach . Um are the costs within budget ? Yes . Is the project evaluated ? We're we're all happy that it it meets all the criteria , umIndustrial Designer: Yep .Project Manager: Thank you very muchindeed , I think that {disfmarker} I think that's uh {vocalsound}Industrial Designer: Cool , thank you {vocalsound} ,User Interface: Alright .Project Manager: I think we can go f for an early bath .User Interface: Yeah.Marketing: {vocalsound}Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}User Interface: {vocalsound}Marketing: {vocalsound}Project Manager: So I call the meeting closed .User Interface: Okay .Project Manager: Not sure how farahead of schedule we were there .


Project Manager: Okay everybody is ready ? {vocalsound} Good morning again . So , today we are going to have a f second meeting . Oh Michael , hi .User Interface: Yep .Project Manager: You're late . You have a goodreason for that ?User Interface: {vocalsound} Yes .Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}Project Manager: {vocalsound} Very good {vocalsound} . {vocalsound} Okay , let's have a look to the agenda today . {vocalsound}So , we are going to have a meeting about the functional design . Um so first before starting I w just going to uh to go quickly to {disfmarker} through the minutes of previous meeting . So uh {vocalsound} basically wewe are not decided if w we should go for a universal or specific uh uh remote control , but I have new um new i inputs for {disfmarker} about that topics . I goin I'm going to share with you . {vocalsound} And uhbasically we decided to um to uh go to individual actions for each of you uh so um Industrial Designer should wor was supposed to work on th on th on the working design . You showed us {disfmarker}IndustrialDesigner: Yep .Project Manager: you ar you you prepare something for us ?Industrial Designer: Yeah . Yep .Project Manager: The U_I_ guy also uh work on that , yeah , and for the mar our Marketing Expert shoulddeliver some specs .User Interface: Mm .Project Manager: Alright {vocalsound} so {vocalsound} so we are going to go through three of your individual presentations . But first I would like quickly to uh to decide of{disfmarker} to give a name to the project . So , I just put d quickly Remo , but if you have any o other names that we co could decide for just to to keep something fun for our project we we should {disfmarker} wecould discuss quickly . Any ideas ?User Interface: Uh the Powerstick .Industrial Designer: Mm-hmm .Project Manager: {vocalsound} Powerstick , yeah .User Interface: {vocalsound}Project Manager: What else ? Whatelse ?Marketing: Uh . {vocalsound}User Interface: Maybe a Spanish name would work well .Marketing: Mm I was thinking of the {disfmarker}User Interface: Especially if we're selling into the U_S_ market becasuethere's a lot of Spanish speakers there . Maybe something that sounds cool in English but sounds funny in Spanish .Marketing: Mando .User Interface: Mando .Project Manager: Mango ? Mango ?User Interface: What isthat ?Marketing: Mando .Project Manager: Mando . M_A_ ? M_A_ ?Marketing: A*_N_ yeah D_O .Project Manager: M_ D_O_ . Mm , okay .Marketing: It doesn't it doesn't sound cool for me ,Project Manager: What does itmean ? Oh .Marketing: but maybe for a Spanish {disfmarker} for I {disfmarker} for {disfmarker}User Interface: What does it mean in Spanish ?Marketing: Control .User Interface: Control .Project Manager: Hmm .Nice .User Interface: Okay . 'Cause it also {disfmarker} like in English it sounds like you know the man's tool you know because you know men like to have control of the remoteMarketing: But {disfmarker} mm , yeah.User Interface: so it might {disfmarker}Marketing: Mando sounds Latino . {vocalsound} {vocalsound}Project Manager: {vocalsound} {vocalsound}User Interface: {vocalsound}Industrial Designer:{vocalsound}Project Manager: Okay .User Interface: The Mando .Project Manager: {vocalsound} So , let's go for Mando ? Yeah ? No objection ?Industrial Designer: Yeah , yeah .User Interface: Yeah that's {gap}.Project Manager: Great . So {disfmarker}User Interface: And we could have some like you d you could have the fonts you know special , so you have man in like in in uh in one o in one font and then the O_ as like{disfmarker}Project Manager: Okay , I think this is {disfmarker}User Interface: Although you don't wanna cut uh cut women out of the uh potential buyers though ,Project Manager: Okay .User Interface: do you ? So{disfmarker}Industrial Designer: Yeah they are the most T_V_ watcher . So we should be careful .User Interface: Yeah .Project Manager: Okay , I think this is more a question of of {disfmarker}User Interface:Marketing .Marketing: But {disfmarker} yeahProject Manager: I I think this is more a question of of look and feel .Marketing: it uh {disfmarker}Project Manager: Something that should be addressed later We should weshould go to other {disfmarker} for the other topics .Marketing: Yeah because if the product will be international {disfmarker}User Interface: Well that's the thing . We need to know who we're selling it to before we canreally decide on a {disfmarker}Project Manager: Yeah okay , so let's stick f to Man Mando for the nameUser Interface: Um .Project Manager: and we'll see for the for the look and feel later . So let's go for the threepresentations right now . So , who want to start ?User Interface: {vocalsound}Project Manager: So maybe we could start with the market , yeah .Marketing: Maybe maybe I should uh start . Yeah . Mm . Okay .ProjectManager: Okay so I have your slides somewhere ?Marketing: Yeah . Should be in participant four .Project Manager: Participant four . {vocalsound} This one ?Marketing: Yeah , yeah . {vocalsound} Uh .Project Manager:S that's coming . Uh {gap}User Interface: Yeah .Project Manager: okay . Great .Industrial Designer: Yep .Marketing: Okay so yeah I will I will give a brief outline about what I what I prepared for this meeting .ProjectManager: Mm-hmm .Marketing: For the functional requirements and especially for the for the user requirements . I prepare a marketing report and we have to find the weaknesses and and the the improvements wecould do to the current remote controls . And also I di I did a study with {disfmarker} for the incorporation of new technologies it seems that the remote controls have been {disfmarker} have remained the same for thelast five , ten years . There is no no significant difference between the the b the first new controls and {disfmarker}Project Manager: Okay . Sh next slide ?Marketing: Yeah . Yeah .Project Manager: Okay .Marketing:Well {vocalsound} {vocalsound} more {disfmarker} most of the people think that remote controls are ugly , thoroughly . So and they they admit that the the they should uh s they would uh spend more money in afancier remote control , which is which is good and it's interesting point . Also the people are worried about about the R*_S_I_ disease , which is if you repeat the sa the same movement , which is not a {disfmarker}with a not very appropriate device , you you will have problems whe when you will get old . So s people are uh are worried about the the shape of the of the remote control . They are also {vocalsound} {disfmarker}they get angry very often because they lost the remote control very often , so I think it would be a good point to to l to to find a a solution to {disfmarker} any beep any alarm or something incorporated to {disfmarker}with the remote control every time it it get lost .Project Manager: Mm-hmm .Marketing: And also I found that young people {disfmarker} the the younger people are the more interested they are in incorporating newtechnologies in the in the remote control .Project Manager: Okay .Marketing: So {vocalsound} {vocalsound} in my opinion the Mando {disfmarker} this Mando shouldn't be very small because the smaller it is , themore like {disfmarker} the the liklier it is to get lost . Liklier or more likely ?User Interface: More likely . {gap}Marketing: {gap} likely . Okay . Uh {vocalsound} people also complain because they they they all have thesame size of the buttons for buttons who w which are not very use like f uh memorising channels or or this kind of actions which are not very often but {vocalsound} they they shouldn't they shouldn't have the sameimportance in the in the uh in the remote cont in the remote control . Also the z the design should fit the hand shape . So it may be interesting to to think in a {disfmarker} in both prototypes , for right and left handedpeople .User Interface: Well th the on the thing is though , most remote controls are used by more than one person . So unless you're kind of targeting single people you know you're gonna maybeMarketing:{vocalsound} Yeah .User Interface: cut out some {disfmarker} a lot of your market .Marketing: I dunno I th Anyway I think it could be int interesting to to release some {disfmarker} a a small fraction of of this remotecontrols .Industrial Designer: Well maybe it could be a universal design .Marketing: Sorry ?Industrial Designer: A universal design , which is which is good for both the hands .User Interface: Still shaped for yeah foryour hand but not for a particular hand , right ?Marketing: Yeah .Industrial Designer: Yeah ? That's right , whether it's left hand or right hand ,Marketing: Yeah .Industrial Designer: but but {vocalsound} don't you thinkthat the two points are clashing , one thing you are saying design should fit the hand shape and it should not be very small ?Marketing: Sorry ?Industrial Designer: The first and the third point , they are clashing .UserInterface: Well it can still be a {gap} , you can still extend past the hand .Marketing: Yeah .Project Manager: Yeah .Industrial Designer: Okay .User Interface: Uh .Marketing: Like uh {disfmarker}Industrial Designer: Sofitting the hand doesn't mean much then .User Interface: Well it means {disfmarker} like , this remote here is kind of {disfmarker} is very thin and long so instead of having {disfmarker} you know you might have itkind of {disfmarker} a bit biggerIndustrial Designer: Mm-hmm mm-hmm .Marketing: Yeah , like {disfmarker}User Interface: or , you know , with maybe some some finger molds or something .Industrial Designer:Mm-hmm mm-hmm mm-hmm .Project Manager: {vocalsound}Industrial Designer: So it means design should be similar to the traditional ones ?User Interface: {gap}Industrial Designer: Little sleek , longer ?UserInterface: {gap}Industrial Designer: And it should fit the hand .Marketing: No no I was thinking of so like something {disfmarker}Project Manager: Something with the shape of the palm ?Industrial Designer: Mm-hmmmm-hmm mm-hmm .Marketing: yeah .User Interface: Some finger grips maybe .Marketing: Yeah .User Interface: You could even have some buttons like you know on the sides and everything ,Project Manager: On thesides .Marketing: Yeah yeah . It sh it shouldn't it shouldn't be symmetric symmetrical .User Interface: but {disfmarker}Industrial Designer: Mm-hm mm-hmm mm-hmm .Marketing: Not anymore . That's what{disfmarker} yeah .Project Manager: And then finally {disfmarker}Marketing: And finally , the incorporation of a L_C_D_ or a speech recognition system in the remote control could also be interesting , but I don't knowif the budget would be large enough .User Interface: Yeah .Project Manager: Yeah . First I'm just wondering about the L_C_D_ stuff because uh because {disfmarker}Marketing: But most of {disfmarker} yeah most ofthe young people to thirty to thirty years old were really interested in this kind of technology .Project Manager: Yeah , so maybe it's a good time for me to uh {vocalsound} to bring you to some new uh new informations. We had the new requirements from the {disfmarker} so uh from the head offices of the company , and so they wanted {disfmarker} so they want to um {disfmarker} they would like to be restricted to T_V_ .UserInterface: Yeah .Project Manager: Okay , I dunno if you had this information already . No ,User Interface: No .Project Manager: so they want us to restrict the remote control to T_V_ only because of time limitations .Um they want also uh {disfmarker}Marketing: Actually this marketing report is restricted to T_V_ remote controls .Project Manager: Excellent . So we have also to focus more on the internet aspects because well wellte teletext is outdated now and uh finally , {vocalsound} it should be clear that the corporate image , that means colours and logos of the co our company should be clearly inde identified in the product . So{disfmarker}User Interface: {vocalsound} I was still uh I was still working on this uh twenty five Euro price point because I think actually having looked at some of the remotes out there , this is quite a low uh price if ifwe're {disfmarker} maybe I can get to this in my presentation though ,Project Manager: Yeah yeah . Sure sure .User Interface: but um yeah .Project Manager: So maybe we can jump to your presentations , right now.User Interface: Yep . Okay .Project Manager: Okay so let's keep in mind about tha that that {disfmarker} this last point about L_C_D_ and speech uh recoUser Interface: Yeah . I think even even if it was within budgetdo a speech reco rec system it might be a bit difficult because if you think {disfmarker} if you're watching T_V_ you're gonna have a lot of this uh background noise from the T_V_ which might interfere with the{disfmarker}Project Manager: {vocalsound} Sorry , what is your {gap} ?User Interface: Uh participant three . You might have some background noise from the T_V_ which will make the speech recognition much uhharder , so .Marketing: Yeah but you should be able to activate or disactivate , so {disfmarker} yeah yeah .User Interface: {vocalsound} Oh you press a press a button to talk , and the the T_V_ the T_V_ {vocalsound}sound turns off . {gap}Marketing: {vocalsound} Yeah uh channel fifty .Industrial Designer: No it could be command control kind of thing .Marketing: Yeah .Industrial Designer: It requir recognises particular sequenceand then it gets activated . Means you say {disfmarker} you should say like does that , remote control being on or be on kind of thing , and then remote control comes in the picture for the speech recognition .UserInterface: Yeah .Industrial Designer: Because this kind of thing means speech is there from the T_V_ also .User Interface: Yeah .Industrial Designer: So there should be something command controlled , you start andthen you stop .User Interface: Mm . Yeah .Industrial Designer: It's like V_I_ editor , you are having two modes similarly .User Interface: {vocalsound}Industrial Designer: Otherwise it's just lying idle .Project Manager:Okay Michael .User Interface: Okay , so , could I describe the mouse maybe {gap} be easier to {disfmarker}Project Manager: Sorry ?User Interface: could I use the mouse , or {disfmarker}Project Manager: Um yeah.User Interface: Mm . Thanks . Okay .Project Manager: The wheel doesn't work .User Interface: {vocalsound} Great {vocalsound} .Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}Project Manager: {vocalsound}User Interface: Okayso um while uh researching this this topic I first of all just thought of a couple of things that I would like to see in a remote , and just uh looked to see if they're actually available in any current remotes , and then alsosearched for which are the top-rated uh remote controls on Epinions dot com , which is a a you know a a customer um written basically review site . So um there's a pretty wide range of uh remote controls these daysand and uh this remote control on the right here is is one of the more extravagant , but it's not really {disfmarker} it's by no means uh mm you know {vocalsound} on it's own in being so expensive . There are a lot ofexpensive remote controls out there .Project Manager: {gap} Looks like a P_D_A_ {gap} ?User Interface: So {disfmarker} {vocalsound} yeah it doe it's {disfmarker} well basically all the functions uh are controlledthrough through the L_C_D_ screen except for the really really kind of main functions , which have a couple of of their own buttons . Um and if you look at a lot of the universal remotes out um on the market , I knowwe're working on television remote , but a lot of the universal remotes out there have uh have these L_C_D_ screens which kind of helps when you're using multiple uh devices I suppose because you can have multiplekind of functions {disfmarker} d different functions on the screen at different times . But um the thing that I find most interesting about this remote control , and it's kind of difficult to uh to see in the slide , but it has ascroll wheel on it , which is kind of like uh a mouse scroll wheel , which I think is {disfmarker} it's a really kind of important design aspect um is {disfmarker} it's {disfmarker} 'Cause the thing is what a {vocalsound}what we {disfmarker} the presen this presentation we had is what we want the remote control to actually do . And obviously the the simplest thing that a remote control does is it just change the change the channel.Industrial Designer: Change the channels .User Interface: Now umIndustrial Designer: Yeah .User Interface: uh the {disfmarker} I think that a scroll wheel is actually pretty a pretty handy way of of changing thechannel . 'Cause I know when I um when I use the remote to change the channel I very rarely use the numbers on the on the pad . I usually use the up and downIndustrial Designer: Mmm-hmm mm-hmm . Yeah yeah.User Interface: because most channels are you know two digit numbers and you have to press you know a special button to enter a two-digit number , and then two numbers , so that's just uh {disfmarker} it'sannoying . So I think a scroll wheel is is quite handy . Now um the the scroll wheel is is much more useful if you have an L_C_D_ screen , and this brings us to the the point you were mentioning before about theinternet uh capability .Project Manager: Mm-hmm .User Interface: One possibility , if we {disfmarker} now we need to still talk about the price point because obviously a lot of this stuff can't be done for twenty five Euuh Euro , but one possibility is to download program information into the L_C_D_ screen so that instead of actually saying I want to I want to go to channel thirty seven because I know this programme's on , you know ,often you don't know what ch what channel it's on , or you don't know what's on . If you have a list of of programs on your L_C_D_ screen you just scroll to that program rather than to a channel . So if you think about{disfmarker} it's kind of like a {disfmarker} you know in mobile phones now you don't use {disfmarker} you don't remember people's phone number , you remember their name and you go find that name and ring it.Project Manager: {vocalsound}User Interface: So this would be pretty {disfmarker} kind of a handy thing to have , but um we we really need t to discuss the price . So , I mean there are {vocalsound} there are uhcheaper {disfmarker} this is another multi kinda purpose remote control where it's it's it's very simple , there's only a few buttons , but al each of those buttons does something different in a different context . So this issomething else we might wanna consider , is really kind of limiting the number of buttons , because this is the top rating uh universal remote control on on Epinions . It it's really uh maybe worth thinking about limitingthe number of buttons as much as as possible um because really I think people want to be able to find the button they're looking for without even looking at the remote control . And {gap} was saying before abouthaving different size buttons for different you know frequently used uh tasks , but I think also you know the location and and shape of the buttons is important , but also the number of buttons . So if you have too manybuttons it it it increases the the difficulty of finding the one you want .Industrial Designer: But there is one problem {gap} then the user has to understand each of that functionality .User Interface: So{disfmarker}Project Manager: Mm-hmm .User Interface: Yeah well we wIndustrial Designer: Because the same button is doing too many things .User Interface: Yeah well we will have a bit of a simpler uh task in thatwe're only doing uh a television remote control . Um I think maybe one option is to have you know a little flip-open um door that uh that you have hidden most of the time , but contains the extra buttons like , say , thenumber buttons for instance . UmIndustrial Designer: Mm-hmm .User Interface: {vocalsound} I I would {disfmarker} if I had my perfect remote control , I'd probably just have no numbers at all on it because they'rejust in the way .Industrial Designer: Mm-hmm .User Interface: They don't really do anything . Maybe you know I {disfmarker} although I do also find flip-open doors a bit of a pain because sometimes they can breakoff or or whatever , but maybe a door that you can you can permanantly remove or permanantly have on would be good .Industrial Designer: Mm-hmm .User Interface: Um {vocalsound} but I think definitely you needto to keep the buttons down to a minimum , but not not let that kind of interfere with the functionality of of the device . Um {disfmarker}Marketing: H I think I think that the tr the transition to this to this new remotecontrol shouldn't be very very abrupt very hard because w if people see a remo see the {disfmarker} see a remote control without numbers mm they will think it's very difficult to learn very difficult to {disfmarker} verydifferent build {disfmarker} very different to the traditional {disfmarker}Industrial Designer: It does sampling out of the {gap} .Project Manager: {vocalsound}User Interface: {vocalsound} Well I guess that depends