Lynne Neagle AM: Good morning, everyone. Welcome to the Children, Young People and Education Committee this morning. I've received no apologies for absence. Can I ask Members if there are any declarations ofinterest, please? No. Okay, thank you. Item 2 this morning is our scrutiny session on Estyn's annual report 2018-19. I'm very pleased to welcome Meilyr Rowlands, Her Majesty's Chief Inspector, Estyn; Jassa Scott,strategic director at Estyn; and Claire Morgan, strategic director at Estyn. Thank you all for attending. We're looking forward to hearing what you've got to say. We'll go straight into questions from Suzy Davies.SuzyDavies AM: Bore da. Good morning, everybody. Thank you for the papers upfront, in which you say that the most striking feature of the education system, looking forward, of course is the curriculum and the changethat that's bringing. How can we be sure that, during this period of change, standards don't slip? And also, from the point of view of scrutiny, will we be back in a situation where we're being told, 'You can't compare oneset of results against the previous year's results, because of the nature of the change'?Meilyr Rowlands: Bore da, bawb. Thank you for the invitation to come here. I think that's a good question. I think any kind of majoreducational reform has got risks attached to it, particularly if those changes were made too quickly. I think this process of reform has been going on in the background for a few years now, so I think there is a trackrecord of standards and provision not slipping. We've seen small incremental improvements. So, overall, I think we can be fairly confident that standards won't slip during this period of preparation.Suzy Davies AM: CanI just ask: is that based on your evidence around primary schools, where the sort of ethos that we've seen in the curriculum has been already articulated through the foundation phase?Meilyr Rowlands: The track recordI'm talking about is across the board, so it's very difficult to think of anything that's actually got worse over the last three or four years, so it's difficult to say that standards of provision is slipping. It might not beimproving as quickly as we would like, but the purpose of major curriculum and, more generally, educational reform is to make sure that we do get a more substantial sort of improvement. I think we shouldcongratulate the profession for the work they've been doing. A large number of schools and teachers and leaders have been part of preparing the new curriculum and all the associated work, as well as doing the dayjob. I think their commitment and their engagement with curriculum reform, and engagement with wider education reform, is to be congratulated. So, I think going forward, we must make sure that that is continued;that this process that's called co-construction—engaging with the profession, making sure that they're behind all the changes—continues. I think that's what's going to make sure that we don't see any slippage.SuzyDavies AM: Okay, and on that point of comparing year on year, we will be able to make those comparisons legitimately then?Meilyr Rowlands: Yes, certainly, in terms of our inspection outcomes and our inspection work,yes.Suzy Davies AM: Okay. That's great, thank you. Can I just ask you then about the difference in preparedness between primary and secondary schools, which I've just mentioned previously, and also what your viewsare on the impact of funding for schools on that as well? Because we're in a situation where a number of primary schools have got surplus funds, sometimes that's because of end of year additional funds just beingmagicked up, but there is a serious worry that so many secondary schools are in deficit and that, overall, secondary schools are in deficit. Is there a correlation between those two positions, that secondary schools maybe less ready for this than primary schools?Meilyr Rowlands: I think it's probably true to say that secondary schools have a greater challenge than primary schools generally in terms of preparedness for the newcurriculum. I think that's why we welcomed the phasing in of the new curriculum. With any sort of education reform, you've got that danger of people wanting to see change as soon as possible on the one hand, and onthe other hand you need time to pilot things, to make sure that people have the right professional learning and make sure that there's opportunity for evaluation and thinking and so forth. So, we've got to get thatbalance right.Suzy Davies AM: Sorry, that could be difficult to do if a school doesn't have money to create that space, couldn't it?Meilyr Rowlands: Yes. You raised two issues, I think. One, about the difference betweenprimary and secondary: I think what I'm saying there is I think the fact that the new curriculum is going to be brought in for all the years in primary, but it's going to be phased in year by year for secondary is arecognition of that difference. In terms of funding, probably everyone in this room, and certainly me included, would like to see more money for the education system—any educationalist would like to see that. But, youknow, that is a decision for local and central Government to decide how much they can afford. I think there is an argument for saying that the funding has become more challenging for schools over time.Suzy DaviesAM: Can I ask, just to keep it on track, are you finding that that's having an impact on secondary schools particularly—their ability to make space to get their heads around the curriculum?Meilyr Rowlands: I don't thinkyou can make that straightforward correlation. But if you do look at surpluses and reserves, they have been more or less constant for primary schools over a long period of time, but they have declined for secondaryschools. So, I think there probably is an argument for saying that we need to look at the funding of secondary schools in particular because, overall, they're in deficit now. So, I think there is an argument for looking atthat. The other thing that's worth saying about funding is that even a small decrease in real terms can be disproportionately time consuming to manage. So, you know, if you have a large school and you have to maybemake one member of staff redundant, it can have a real big effect on the morale in the school. But also the time it takes for the headteacher and the senior staff to make those decisions can take their eye off theeducational ball because they're looking at these financial and staffing issues.Suzy Davies AM: Okay, thank you. Siân might develop that a little bit further on. The final question from me is: there's a general concernabout the number of teachers that we have in the system at the moment, particularly at secondary level and in particular subjects as well. How do you think we can improve that? What impact is it likely to have on theability of secondary schools to really get a grip on this?Meilyr Rowlands: Obviously, the most important resource for the education system is the teachers. So, it is a concern that recruitment is getting more and moredifficult and that targets for initial teacher training are not being hit. And we're not seeing them hit, if I remember correctly, even in primary, let alone secondary. So, there is a challenge, and I think we've got to look atthis in the round. We've got to make sure that we have both a long-term strategy and a shorter term strategy for this. So, long term, we've got to make sure that education is an attractive option for young people andmore mature people to want to go into. So, that is partly to do with workload and staff well-being. I think there's a general acceptance now that that needs to be higher up on the agenda, that people need to take thatseriously, and there's work going on regarding the workload issue.Suzy Davies AM: I suppose what I'm coming to, and I will finish with this, Chair, is, we're asking our existing workforce to undertake a fair bit ofcontinuous professional development—let's call it that—in order to get ready for this curriculum when they've barely got time for lunch as it is. Do you think that's going to have an impact on the ability of secondaryschools to get to grips with this, albeit that there'll be a phasing in?Meilyr Rowlands: Yes. I think it will have an effect, but I think it'll have a positive effect. I think the new curriculum, one of the things about the newcurriculum is that it re-professionalises the profession. It gives back agency and ownership to teachers. I think it's really important. And one of the reasons why teaching maybe hasn't been that attractive a profession isthat teachers in the past have just been delivering a set curriculum, and now they've got a much more creative part in deciding for themselves how to teach something and what to teach. So, I think that is a veryimportant part of attracting intelligent people into the profession.  There are short-term things we need to do, of course, as well. I think we need to have a much more varied set of routes into teaching, so I welcomesome of the part-time Open University courses, for example. So, there are lots of ways—we were talking about maybe converting people from primary into secondary, particularly in Welsh-medium, where there's ashortage. So, all those kinds of varied routes, I think, into teaching, are important as well.Suzy Davies AM: Degree apprenticeships, potentially.Meilyr Rowlands: Yes, I think it's well worth exploring that. Yes.SuzyDavies AM: Lovely. Thank you. Thank you, Chair.Lynne Neagle AM: Okay. Siân Gwenllian now has some questions on secondary schools causing concern. Siân.Sian Gwenllian AM: Yes. Just before going on to that, justto pick up on that last point that you made about the shortage of teachers and losing teachers during the first year of their training. Has Estyn done any themed work on that particular issue, or do you intend to doanything on that? Also, looking at the financial incentives and how they compare with the situation in England, for example; do we need, perhaps, to think about financial incentives, not just for specific subjects, but forgoing to schools where there are particular issues, perhaps?Meilyr Rowlands: Well, yes, there are currently discussions ongoing between us and the Government about working in those early years for teachers. It'spossible that we will be undertaking work in the near future on that. I know that Professor Mick Waters is looking at this currently, and we've had the discussion with him. And I think we would welcome the opportunityto look at this particular period. Now, we are, of course, looking at initial teacher training, but we haven't looked at the first couple of years for many a year.Sian Gwenllian AM: Right, thank you very much. And for yourinformation, I've commissioned a piece of work on that particular issue, and that work will be published in due course. So, I hope to have a discussion with you about that.Meilyr Rowlands: Thank you very much.Yes.Sian Gwenllian AM: In terms of the secondary schools, that’s where the problem lies, isn’t it, rather than the primary sector. How much of a concern is it to you that children’s chances of going to a secondary schoolthat is good or better appear to be 50:50, and that, indeed, over 10 per cent of secondary schools are judged to be failing and 12 per cent are under Estyn review? How much of a concern is that to you?MeilyrRowlands: Well, it is of concern to us, of course. I hope that we will have an opportunity to talk about the positive aspects of the education system in Wales, because there are a number of good things we can reportalso. The primary sector, the special sector, post-16—there are many sectors that are doing well, and I think a story that's particularly positive this year is that we have seen pupil referral units improving. We have seenexamples of excellent practice in that sector for the first time in many a year, and we've also seen excellent practice in independent special schools, which is also a sector—. Because these are two sectors where thereare very, very vulnerable children in attendance. So, I think that's very encouraging. But, you're right, of course, the biggest concern for the system, I would say, is secondary schools, and that is an issue of leadership,and also of the quality of the teaching and learning. Those are the recommendations that we make most often in our inspection reports. So, I believe that there is a need to find a long-term solution, as I mentionedpreviously, and also a short-term solution to this problem. In the long term, to improve the quality of teaching and learning—well, that’s the main aim of the new curriculum. So, I am confident that that strategy is theright strategy. It will take time, as we mentioned previously; it will take longer in secondary schools, and that's for a number of reasons, and I have discussed the challenges that are additional for secondary schools inprevious annual reports. So, there are many reasons why secondary schools find it more difficult, possibly, than primary schools. The children themselves are older and they have greater challenges. Life is morecomplicated for them, possibly. It’s more difficult to engage with the parents of older children than younger children, and that’s an important factor. That’s one of the reasons why I believe it’s important that we do havecommunity schools that ensure that the parents are part of the school’s life and take an interest in the education of their children. We also know that qualifications take a very prominent role in secondary schools’mindsets, and, in some cases, perhaps excessively so. So, we need to ensure that those qualifications are reformed as a result of the reform of the curriculum, and, of course, Qualifications Wales is carrying out thatwork currently. And also, we need to change the measures that we use to measure the schools’ successes. Now, there is work ongoing on that as well. But there are all kinds of variations and differences between theprimary and secondary sectors. In primary schools, for example, the greatest and most obvious difference, I would say, is that you’ve got one teacher who looks after a child for a whole year, and that teacher canidentify the needs of the pupil very well over a period of time, getting to know the child and, possibly, the family very well. It’s much more complicated for secondary school to do that; there have to be systems put inplace for that. So, there are many long-term things that we need to respond to. But in the short term, what is important is that those schools that cause concern receive much more support, and that is why I am gladand do welcome what's being piloted currently, which is a system of supporting these schools, the multi-agency approach, that is. So, that is something that we have been calling for for quite a long period of time andpiloted ourselves a few years ago. So, I'm very glad that we are doing this in secondary schools throughout Wales. I believe there are about 12 schools that are in that pilot scheme.Sian Gwenllian AM: You saidpreviously that it's a cause of concern for you that these schools that are failing or underachieving are not identified early enough. Are there signs that that's improving?Meilyr Rowlands: Well, one of the things that'svery positive about this pilot scheme is that it's not just the schools that are officially causing concern that are a part of the pilot scheme, that is, the schools that we have identified, through inspections, as needing tobe put in a statutory category. So, there are schools involved in the pilot scheme that the authorities and the consortia have identified themselves as schools that are at risk of causing concern. I believe that it's fair tosay that we have not reached a point yet where we have a system of agreed criteria in relation to identifying these schools yet. I think that there has been initial work that has been commissioned or that is about toarrive in relation to that, and the types of measures you would expect us to take account of would be dissatisfaction from parents, staff leaving, a change in leadership. We use surveys with the children, for instance,and that gives you quite a good idea of whether a school is possibly facing difficulties. So, there's not one single criteria alone that will tell you, 'This is a school that is at risk of causing concern', but taken together,having a set of criteria that everyone has agreed would be a good way of monitoring schools, I believe.Sian Gwenllian AM: Okay. Well, we'll be coming on to that middle tier later on, and perhaps that's where theproblem lies, namely that if there isn't an agreed system from consortia and yourselves, perhaps that's where the focus needs to be.Meilyr Rowlands: I would say that it's not the identification of the schools that is thegreatest problem. The greatest problem is ensuring that there is support for them and that the support is multi-agency support, where all the agencies that support these schools are working together.Sian GwenllianAM: Well, how long does it take, therefore, for a school to move from an improvement category, in terms of special measures, to be escalated then? Because one sees sometimes that there's an excellent school, andwithin five years' time, it's in the red. So, there's a great deal of variance in that.Meilyr Rowlands: Well, that would be something quite unusual—to move from excellent to red.Sian Gwenllian AM: Yes, well, gradually,perhaps.Meilyr Rowlands: Yes. Perhaps Claire can respond to this.Claire Morgan: On average, secondary schools that are in need of special measures take just over two years, on average. Some are shorter; some arequite a considerable amount longer. It's a little less for schools that go into significant improvement. With primary schools, of course, it's much shorter because the issues are far less complex; it's easier to bring aboutimprovements in teaching. When you've got large numbers of staff, you've got large secondary schools, it takes time to actually bring about those improvements, but it is a long time, just over two years, when youthink that some pupils, maybe in key stage 4 for the two years—. Certainly, we want to see schools coming out of category much quicker, and this is where the multi-agency approach certainly is a positive step. Allpartners involved in supporting the school are involved in these improvement boards. They focus on bringing about improvement in the areas of the school that are weakest, and it is the responsibility of everybodyinvolved—that is: ourselves, the regions, local authorities, the schools themselves and their governing bodies—to look at how they can best support the school to bring about that improvement. So, it's getting anagreement on what the issues are, and then planning the support so that we avoid duplication, but that we support the school in the areas they need more support. And we hope that this then will accelerate theimprovement of the schools that find themselves in category. But, as Meilyr already said, there are some schools involved in that particular pilot that are at danger of causing serious concern. So, the pilot is trying outthose two different approaches as well.Sian Gwenllian AM: Okay, thank you. And just finally from me, for the time being at least, the financial situation; we've spoken about that already this morning. If you could—. Iffunding was injected into the system tomorrow, say, what would you spend it on? What aspects would benefit from that additional funding?Meilyr Rowlands: Were you asking about something specific there?SianGwenllian AM: In the schools themselves, if you were a school leader, what would you—Meilyr Rowlands: Oh, if I were a school leader.Sian Gwenllian AM: Yes. How would you use any additional funding that would flowinto the school?Meilyr Rowlands: It's difficult to make that decision, because every school is different. It is important, of course, that leaders do have the power and the ability to make those decisions themselves. But,certainly, in the short term, the type of thing I would have thought would be to prepare for the new curriculum. That means freeing up teachers to think about what the new curriculum means to them. The schools thathave been a part of developing the curriculum have been in a fortunate position in that they've had plenty of time to think about this. So, it's now time—and this was the chief message of my annual report this year—forevery school in Wales to start to think. Because I think that the new curriculum is truly an opportunity to take a forward step in terms of how we teach and learn within schools. But that means that time is needed forschools to think this through and, in that thinking, to contact the community, to talk to their children as well, to see what the community in its broader sense would like to see being in the new curriculum, because it'sup to every school. Although the new curriculum sets a framework, it is up to each and every school to decide what they're going to teach, and what they're teaching in order to prepare their young people for this newworld that we have in the twenty-first century. Therefore, to give you a somewhat superficial answer, I would be setting time aside for the training of teachers.Jassa Scott: Can I just add one thing there? I think what


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And I said "well big surprise , I mean we could have told you that {pause} n n n four months ago , except we didn't because nobody else was bringing it up " .PhD E: Right .Professor B: Obviously French Telecom didn't volunteerthis information either , cuz we were working on {disfmarker} mainly on voice activity detector for past uh several monthsPhD E: Right .Professor B: because that 's buying us the most uh thing . And everybody said "Well but this is not fair . We didn't know that . " And of course uh the {disfmarker} it 's not working on features really . And be I agreed .PhD E: Right .Professor B: I said " well yeah , you are absolutely right , I mean ifI wish that you provided better end point at speech because uh {disfmarker} or at least that if we could modify the recognizer , uh to account for these long silences , because otherwise uh that {disfmarker} that{disfmarker} th that wasn't a correct thing . " And so then ev ev everybody else says " well we should {disfmarker} we need to do a new eval evaluation without voice activity detector , or we have to do somethingabout it " .PhD E: Right .Professor B: And in principle I {disfmarker} uh I {disfmarker} we agreed .PhD E: Mm - hmm .Professor B: We said uh " yeah " . Because uh {disfmarker} but in that case , uh we would like tochange the uh {disfmarker} the algorithm because uh if we are working on different data , we probably will use a different set of tricks .PhD E: Right .Professor B: But unfortunately nobody ever officially can somehowacknowledge that this can be done , because French Telecom was saying " no , no , no , now everybody has access to our code , so everybody is going to copy what we did . " Yeah well our argument was everybody hahas access to our code , and everybody always had access to our code . We never uh {disfmarker} uh denied that . We thought that people are honest , that if you copy something and if it is protected {disfmarker}protected by patent then you negotiate , or something ,PhD E: Yeah . Right .Professor B: right ? I mean , if you find our technique useful , we are very happy .PhD E: Right .Professor B: But {disfmarker} And FrenchTelecom was saying " no , no , no ,PhD E: Mm - hmm .Professor B: there is a lot of little tricks which uh sort of uh cannot be protected and you guys will take them , " which probably is also true . I mean , you know , itmight be that people will take uh uh th the algorithms apart and use the blocks from that . But I somehow think that it wouldn't be so bad , as long as people are happy abou uh uh uh honest about it .PhD E: Yeah.Professor B: And I think they have to be honest in the long run , because winning proposal again {disfmarker} uh what will be available th is {disfmarker} will be a code . So the uh {disfmarker} the people can go tocode and say " well listen this is what you stole from me "PhD E: Mm - hmm .Professor B: you know ?PhD E: Right .Professor B: " so let 's deal with that " .PhD E: Right .Professor B: So I don't see the problem . Thebiggest problem of course is that f that Alcatel French Telecom cl claims " well we fulfilled the conditions . We are the best . Uh . We are the standard . " And e and other people don't feel that , because they{disfmarker} so they now decided that {disfmarker} that {disfmarker} is {disfmarker} the whole thing will be done on well - endpointed data , essentially that somebody will endpoint the data based on clean speech ,because most of this the SpeechDat - Car has the also close speaking mike and endpoints will be provided .PhD E: Mm - hmm . Ah .Professor B: And uh we will run again {disfmarker} still not clear if we are going to runthe {disfmarker} if we are allowed to run uh uh new algorithms , but I assume so . Because uh we would fight for that , really . uh but {disfmarker} since uh u u n u {disfmarker} at least our experience is that onlyendpointing a {disfmarker} a mel cepstrum gets uh {disfmarker} gets you twenty - one percent improvement overall and twenty - seven improvement on SpeechDat - CarPhD E: Hmm .Professor B: then obvious thedatabase {disfmarker} uh I mean the {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} uh the baseline will go up . And nobody can then achieve fifty percent improvement .PhD E: Right .Professor B: So they agreedthat uh there will be a twenty - five percent improvement required on {disfmarker} on uh h u m bad mis badly mismatched {disfmarker}PhD E: But wait a minute , I thought the endpointing really only helped in thenoisy cases .Professor B: It uh {disfmarker}PhD E: Oh , but you still have that with the MFCC .Professor B: Y yeah .PhD E: OK .Professor B: Yeah but you have the same prob I mean MFCC basically has an enormousnumber of uh insertions .PhD E: Yeah . Right . Yeah . Yeah . Yeah .Professor B: And so , so now they want to say " we {disfmarker} we will require fifty percent improvement only for well matched condition , and onlytwenty - five percent for the serial cases . "PhD E: Hmm .Professor B: And uh {disfmarker} and they almost agreed on that except that it wasn't a hundred percent agreed . And so last time uh during the meeting , Ijust uh brought up the issue , I said " well you know uh quite frankly I 'm surprised how lightly you are making these decisions because this is a major decision . For two years we are fighting for fifty percentimprovement and suddenly you are saying " oh no we {disfmarker} we will do something less " , but maybe we should discuss that . And everybody said " oh we discussed that and you were not a mee there " and I said" well a lot of other people were not there because not everybody participates at these teleconferencing c things . " Then they said " oh no no no because uh everybody is invited . " However , there is only ten or fifteenlines , so people can't even con you know participate . So eh they agreed , and so they said " OK , we will discuss that . " Immediately Nokia uh raised the question and they said " oh yeah we agree this is not good to touh dissolve the uh uh {disfmarker} the uh {disfmarker} the criterion . "PhD E: Mm - hmm .Professor B: So now officially , Nokia is uh uh complaining and said they {disfmarker} they are looking for support , uh I thinkQualComm is uh saying , too " we shouldn't abandon the fifty percent yet . We should at least try once again , one more round . "PhD E: Mm - hmm .Professor B: So this is where we are .PhD E: Mm - hmm .Professor B:I hope that {disfmarker} I hope that this is going to be a adopted .PhD E: Hmm .Professor B: Next Wednesday we are going to have uh another uh teleconferencing call , so we 'll see what uh {disfmarker} where itgoes .PhD E: So what about the issue of um the weights on the {disfmarker} for the different systems , the well - matched , and medium - mismatched and {disfmarker}Professor B: Yeah , that 's what {disfmarker}that 's a g very good uh point , because David says " well you know we ca we can manipulate this number by choosing the right weights anyways . " So while you are right but {disfmarker} uh you know butPhD E: Mm -hmm .Professor B: Uh yeah , if of course if you put a zero {disfmarker} uh weight zero on a mismatched condition , or highly mismatched then {disfmarker} then you are done .PhD E: Mm - hmm .Professor B: Butweights were also deter already decided uh half a year ago . So {disfmarker}PhD E: And they 're the {disfmarker} staying the same ?Professor B: Well , of course people will not like it . Now {disfmarker} What ishappening now is that I th I think that people try to match the criterion to solution .PhD E: Mm - hmm .Professor B: They have solution . Now they want to {vocalsound} make sure their criterion is {disfmarker}PhD E:Right .Professor B: And I think that this is not the right way .PhD E: Yeah .Professor B: Uh it may be that {disfmarker} that {disfmarker} Eventually it may ha may ha it may have to happen . But it 's should happen ata point where everybody feels comfortable that we did all what we could .PhD E: Mm - hmm .Professor B: And I don't think we did .PhD E: Mm - hmm .Professor B: Basically , I think that {disfmarker} that this test wasa little bit bogus because of the data and uh essentially {pause} there were these arbitrary decisions made , and {disfmarker} and everything . So , so {disfmarker} so this is {disfmarker} so this is where it is . So whatwe are doing at OGI now is uh uh uh working basically on our parts which we I think a little bit neglected , like noise separation . Uh so we are looking in ways is {disfmarker} in uh which {disfmarker} uh with which wecan provide better initial estimate of the mel spectrum basically , which would be a l uh , f more robust to noise , and so far not much uh success .PhD E: Hmm .Professor B: We tried uh things which uh a long time agoBill Byrne suggested , instead of using Fourier spectrum , from Fourier transform , use the spectrum from LPC model . Their argument there was the LPC model fits the peaks of the spectrum , so it may be m naturallymore robust in noise . And I thought " well , that makes sense , " but so far we can't get much {disfmarker} much out of it .PhD E: Hmm .Professor B: uh we may try some standard techniques like spectral subtractionand {disfmarker}PhD E: You haven't tried that yet ?Professor B: not {disfmarker} not {disfmarker} not much . Or even I was thinking about uh looking back into these totally ad - hoc techniquesPhD E: Hmm .ProfessorB: like for instance uh Dennis Klatt was suggesting uh the one way to uh deal with noisy speech is to add noise to everything .PhD E: Hmm !Professor B: So . {comment} I mean , uh uh add moderate amount of noiseto all data .PhD E: Oh !Professor B: So that makes uh th any additive noise less addi less a a effective ,PhD E: I see .Professor B: right ? Because you already uh had the noise uh in a {disfmarker}PhD E: Right.Professor B: And it was working at the time . It was kind of like one of these things , you know , but if you think about it , it 's actually pretty ingenious . So well , you know , just take a {disfmarker} take a spectrumand {disfmarker} and {disfmarker} and add of the constant , C , to every {disfmarker} every value .PhD E: Well you 're {disfmarker} you 're basically y Yeah . So you 're making all your training data more uniform.Professor B: Exactly . And if {disfmarker} if then {disfmarker} if this data becomes noisy , it b it becomes eff effectively becomes less noisy basically .PhD E: Hmm .Professor B: But of course you cannot add too muchnoise because then you 'll s then you 're clean recognition goes down , but I mean it 's yet to be seen how much , it 's a very simple technique .PhD E: Mm - hmm .Professor B: Yes indeed it 's a very simple technique ,you just take your spectrum and {disfmarker} and use whatever is coming from FFT , {pause} add constant ,PhD E: Hmm .Professor B: you know ? on {disfmarker} onto power spectrum . That {disfmarker} that{disfmarker} Or the other thing is of course if you have a spectrum , what you can s start doing , you can leave {disfmarker} start leaving out the p the parts which are uh uh low in energy and then perhaps uh onecould try to find a {disfmarker} a all - pole model to such a spectrum . Because a all - pole model will still try to {disfmarker} to {disfmarker} to put the {disfmarker} the continuation basically of the {disfmarker} ofthe model into these parts where the issue set to zero . That 's what we want to try . I have a visitor from Brno . He 's a {disfmarker} kind of like young faculty . pretty hard - working so he {disfmarker} so he 's{disfmarker} so he 's looking into that .PhD E: Hmm .Professor B: And then most of the effort is uh now also aimed at this e e TRAP recognition . This uh {disfmarker} this is this recognition from temporal patterns .PhDE: Hmm ! What is that ?Professor B: Ah , you don't know about TRAPS !Grad A: Hmm .PhD E: The TRAPS sound familiar , I {disfmarker} but I don't {disfmarker}Professor B: Yeah I mean tha This is familiar like sort ofbecause we gave you the name , but , what it is , is that normally what you do is that you recognize uh speech based on a shortened spectrum .PhD E: Mm - hmm . Mm - hmm .Professor B: Essentially L P - LPC , melcepstrum , uh , everything starts with a spectral slice . Uh so if you s So , given the spectrogram you essentially are sliding {disfmarker} sliding the spectrogram along the uh f frequency axisPhD E: Mm - hmm.Professor B: and you keep shifting this thing , and you have a spectrogram .PhD E: Mm - hmm .Professor B: So you can say " well you can also take the time trajectory of the energy at a given frequency " , and whatyou get is then , that you get a p {pause} vector .PhD E: Mm - hmm .Professor B: And this vector can be a {disfmarker} a {disfmarker} s assigned to s some phoneme . Namely you can say i it {disfmarker} I will{disfmarker} I will say that this vector will eh {disfmarker} will {disfmarker} will describe the phoneme which is in the center of the vector . And you can try to classify based on that .PhD E: Hmm .Professor B: And you{disfmarker} so you classi so it 's a very different vector , very different properties , we don't know much about it , but the truth is {disfmarker}PhD E: Hmm . But you have many of those vectors per phoneme,Professor B: Well , so you get many decisions .PhD E: right ? Uh - huh .Professor B: And then you can start dec thinking about how to combine these decisions . Exactly , that 's what {disfmarker} yeah , that 's what itis .PhD E: Hmm . Hmm .Professor B: Because if you run this uh recognition , you get {disfmarker} you still get about twenty percent error {disfmarker} uh twenty percent correct . You know ,PhD E: Hmm .Professor B:on {disfmarker} on like for the frame by frame basis , so {pause} uh {disfmarker} uh so it 's much better than chance .PhD E: How wide are the uh frequency bands ?Professor B: That 's another thing . Well c currentlywe start {disfmarker} I mean we start always with critical band spectrum . For various reasons . But uh the latest uh observation uh is that you {disfmarker} you {disfmarker} you are {disfmarker} you can get quite abig advantage of using two critical bands at the same time .Grad A: Are they adjacent , or are they sProfessor B: Adjacent , adjacent .Grad A: OK .Professor B: And the reasons {disfmarker} there are some reasons forthat . Because there are some reasons I can {disfmarker} I could talk about , will have to tell you about things like masking experiments which uh uh uh uh yield critical bands , and also experiments with release ofmasking , which actually tell you that something is happening across critical bands , across bands . And {disfmarker}PhD E: Well how do you {disfmarker} how do you uh convert this uh energy over time in a particularfrequency band into a vector of numbers ?Professor B: It 's uh uh uh I mean time T - zero is one number , {pause} time tPhD E: Yeah but what 's the number ? Is it just the {disfmarker}Professor B: It 's a spectralenergy , logarithmic spectral energy ,PhD E: it 's just the amount of energy in that band from f in that time interval .Professor B: yeah . Yes , yes . Yes , yes .PhD E: OK .Professor B: And that 's what {disfmarker} that's what I 'm saying then , so this is a {disfmarker} this is a starting vector . It 's just like shortened f {pause} spectrum , or something . But now we are trying to understand what this vector actually represents ,PhD E:Mm - hmm .Professor B: for instance a question is like " how correlated are the elements of this vector ? " Turns out they are quite correlated , because I mean , especially the neighboring ones , right ? They{disfmarker} they represent the same {disfmarker} almost the same configuration of the vocal tract .PhD E: Yeah . Yeah . Mm - hmm .Professor B: So there 's a very high correlation . So the classifiers which use thediagonal covariance matrix don't like it . So we 're thinking about de - correlating them .PhD E: Hmm .Professor B: Then the question is uh " can you describe elements of this vector by Gaussian distributions " , or towhat extent ? Because uh {disfmarker} And {disfmarker} and {disfmarker} and so on and so on . So we are learning quite a lot about that . And then another issue is how many vectors we should be using ,PhD E:Hmm .Professor B: I mean the {disfmarker} so the minimum is one .PhD E: Mm - hmm .Professor B: But I mean is the {disfmarker} is the critical band the right uh uh dimension ? So we somehow made arbitrarydecision , " yes " . Then {disfmarker} but then now we are thinking a lot how to {disfmarker} uh how to use at least the neighboring band because that seems to be happening {disfmarker} This I somehow start tobelieve that 's what 's happening in recognition . Cuz a lot of experiments point to the fact that people can split the signal into critical bands , but then oh uh uh so you can {disfmarker} you are quite capable ofprocessing a signal in uh uh independently in individual critical bands . That 's what masking experiments tell you . But at the same time you most likely pay attention to at least neighboring bands when you are makingany decisions , you compare what 's happening in {disfmarker} in this band to what 's happening to the band {disfmarker} to {disfmarker} to {disfmarker} to the {disfmarker} to the neighboring bands . And that 'show you make uh decisions . That 's why the articulatory events , which uh F F Fletcher talks about , they are about two critical bands . You need at least two , basically . You need some relative , relative relation .GradA: Hmm .Professor B: Absolute number doesn't tell you the right thing .PhD E: Hmm .Professor B: You need to {disfmarker} you need to compare it to something else , what 's happening but it 's what 's happening inthe {disfmarker} in the close neighborhood . So if you are making decision what 's happening at one kilohertz , you want to know what 's happening at nine hundred hertz and it {disfmarker} and maybe at elevenhundred hertz , but you don't much care what 's happening at three kilohertz .PhD E: So it 's really w It 's sort of like saying that what 's happening at one kilohertz depends on what 's happening around it . It 's sort ofrelative to it .Professor B: To some extent , it {disfmarker} that is also true . Yeah . But it 's {disfmarker} but for {disfmarker} but for instance , {vocalsound} th uh {vocalsound} uh what {disfmarker} what uhhumans are very much capable of doing is that if th if they are exactly the same thing happening in two neighboring critical bands , recognition can discard it .PhD E: Mm - hmm .Professor B: Is what 's happening{disfmarker}PhD E: Hmm .Grad A: Hey !Professor B: Hey ! OK , we need us another {disfmarker} another voice here .PhD E: Hey Stephane .Professor B: Yeah , I think so . Yeah ?PhD E: Yep . Sure . Go ahead.Professor B: And so so {disfmarker} so for instance if you d if you a if you add the noise that normally masks {disfmarker} masks the uh {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} the signal right ?PhD E: Mm - hmm .ProfessorB: and you can show that in {disfmarker} that if the {disfmarker} if you add the noise outside the critical band , that doesn't affect the {disfmarker} the decisions you 're making about a signal within a critical band.PhD E: Hmm .Professor B: Unless this noise is modulated . If the noise is modulated , with the same modulation frequency as the noise in a critical band , the amount of masking is less . The moment you {disfmarker}


Grad F: OK .PhD C: Adam , what is the mike that , uh , Jeremy 's wearing ? Grad F: It 's the ear - plug mike .Postdoc A: Ear - plug .PhD E: That 's good .PhD C: Is that a wireless , or {disfmarker} ? Oh .Grad F: No.Grad G: It 's wired .Professor B: Oh !Postdoc A: Is that {disfmarker} Does that mean you can't hear anything during the meeting ?Grad D: It 's old - school .Grad F: Huh ? What ? Huh ?Professor B: Should we , uh ,close the door , maybe ?Grad F: It {disfmarker} it 's a fairly good mike , actually .Professor B: So it 's {disfmarker} Yeah . Huh .Grad F: Well , I shouldn't say it 's a good mike . All I really know is that the signal level isOK . I don't know if it 's a {disfmarker} the quality .Professor B: Well , that 's aGrad F: Ugh ! So I didn't send out agenda items because until five minutes ago we only had one agenda item and now we have two . So .{vocalsound} And , uh .Professor B: OK . So , just to repeat the thing bef that we said last week , it was there 's this suggestion of alternating weeks on {vocalsound} more , uh , automatic speech recognition related ornot ? Was that sort of {pause} the division ?Grad F: Right .Professor B: So which week are we in ?Grad F: Well {disfmarker} We haven't really started , but I thought we more {disfmarker} we more or less did MeetingRecorder stuff last week , so I thought we could do , uh {disfmarker}Professor B: I thought we had a thing about speech recognition last week too .PhD C: Yeah .Grad F: But I figure also if they 're short agenda items ,we could also do a little bit of each .Professor B: Yeah .Grad F: So . I seem to be having difficulty getting this adjusted . Here we go .Professor B: OK .Grad F: So , uh , as most of you should know , I did send out theconsent form thingies and , uh , so far no one has made any {disfmarker} Ach ! {comment} {comment} any comments on them . So , no on no one has bleeped out anything .Professor B: Um . Yeah .Grad F: So . Idon't expect anyone to . But .Professor B: Um . {vocalsound} So , w what follows ? At some point y you go around and get people to sign something ?Grad F: No . We had spoken w about this beforeProfessor B: Yeah ,but I 've forgotten .Grad F: and we had decided that they have {disfmarker} they only needed to sign once . And the agreement that they already signed simply said that we would give them an opportunity . So as longas we do that , we 're covered .Professor B: And how long of an opportunity did you tell them ?Grad F: Uh , July fifteenth .Professor B: July fifteenth . Oh , so they have a plenty of time , and yGrad F: Yep .Professor B:Given that it 's that long , um , um {disfmarker} Why was that date chosen ? You just felt you wanted to {disfmarker} ?Grad F: Jane told me July fifteenth . So , that 's what I set it .Postdoc A: Oh . I just meant thatthat was {pause} the release date that you had on the {pause} data .Professor B: Oh , OK .Grad F: Oh . I {disfmarker} I didn't understand that there was something specific .Postdoc A: I , uh {disfmarker} I thought{disfmarker}Grad F: You {disfmarker} y you had {disfmarker}Professor B: I don't {disfmarker}Grad F: I had heard July fifteenth , so that 's what I put .Postdoc A: Mm - hmm .Professor B: No , the only {disfmarker}th the only {pause} mention I recall about that was just that July fifteenth or so is when {vocalsound} this meeting starts .Grad F: So .Postdoc A: That 's right . That 's why .Professor B: Oh , I see .Postdoc A: You saidyou wanted it to be available then .Professor B: OK .Postdoc A: I didn't mean it to be the hard deadline .Professor B: Right .Postdoc A: It 's fine with me if it is , or we cou But I thought it might be good to remind peopletwo weeks prior to thatProfessor B: wPostdoc A: in case , uh {disfmarker} you know , " by the way {pause} this is your last {disfmarker} "Professor B: Right .Postdoc A: Uh . Yeah .Professor B: We probably shouldhave talked about it , cuz i because if we wanna be able to give it to people July fifteenth , if somebody 's gonna come back and say " OK , I don't want this and this and this used " , uh , clearly we need some time torespond to that . Right ?Grad F: Yeah . As I said , we {disfmarker} I just got one dateProfessor B: Yeah .PhD H: Damn !Grad F: and that 's the one I used .Professor B: Yeah .Grad F: So . But I can send a follow - up . Imean , it 's almost all us . I mean the people who are in the meeti this meeting was , uh , these {disfmarker} the meetings that {disfmarker} in {disfmarker} are in set one .PhD C: Was my {disfmarker} was myresponse OK ?Postdoc A: That 's right .PhD C: I just wrote you {disfmarker} replied to the email saying they 're all fine .Grad F: Right . I mean , that 's fine .PhD C: OK , good .Grad F: I {disfmarker} we don't{disfmarker} My understanding of what we {pause} had agreed upon when we had spoken about this months ago was that , uh , we don't actually need a reply .PhD C: That makes it easy .Grad F: We just need to tellthem that they can do it if they want .Professor B: OK . I just didn't remember , but {disfmarker}Grad F: And so no reply is no changes .Postdoc A: And he 's got it so that the default thing you see when you look at thepage is " OK " .Professor B: OK .Postdoc A: So that 's very clear all the way down the page , " OK " . And they have two options they can change it to . One of them is {pause} " censor " , and the other one is " incorrect" . Is it {disfmarker} is {disfmarker} your word is " incorrect " ?Grad F: Right .Postdoc A: Which means also we get feedback on {pause} if {pause} um , there 's something that they w that needs to be {pause}adjusted , because , I mean , these are very highly technical things . I mean , it 's an added , uh , level of checking on the accuracy of the transcription , as I see it . But in any case , people can agree to things that arewrong .Grad F: Well {disfmarker}Postdoc A: So .Grad F: Yeah . The reason I did that it was just so that people would not censor {disfmarker} not ask to have stuff removed because it was transcribed incorrectly,Postdoc A: And the reason I liked it was because {disfmarker}Grad F: as opposed to , uh {disfmarker}Postdoc A: was because it , um {disfmarker} it gives them the option of , uh , being able to correct it .Grad F:Right .Postdoc A: Approve it and correct it . And {pause} um . So , you have {pause} it nicely set up so they email you and , uh {disfmarker}Grad F: When they submit the form , it gets processed and emailed to me.Postdoc A: Mm - hmm . Mm - hmm . And I wanted to say the meetings that are involved in that set are Robustness and Meeting Recorder .Grad F: So .Postdoc A: The German ones will be ready for next week . Thoseare three {disfmarker} three of those . A different set of people . And we can impose {disfmarker}PhD C: The German ones ?Postdoc A: Uh , well .PhD H: Yeah . Those {disfmarker} uh {disfmarker}Professor B: NSA.Postdoc A: OK . I spoke loosely . The {disfmarker} the German , French {disfmarker} Sorry , the German , {vocalsound} Dutch , and Spanish ones .PhD E: Spanish . Yeah .Grad F: Mm - hmm .PhD C: Oh , those arethe NSA meetings ?PhD E: The non - native {disfmarker}PhD H: Those are {disfmarker}Postdoc A: Yeah . Uh - huh .Professor B: German , Dutch , Swiss and Spanish .PhD C: Oh , oh ! OK .PhD E: The all non - native{disfmarker}Postdoc A: That 's {disfmarker} that 's {disfmarker} that 's rGrad F: Mm - hmm .PhD H: Uh - huh .PhD C: OK . I 'd {disfmarker} I dPostdoc A: Yeah . {pause} It 's the other group .Professor B: I It was thenetwork {disfmarker} network services group .PhD C: OK .Postdoc A: Uh - huh . Yeah , exactly . Yeah .Professor B: Yeah .Postdoc A: I didn't mean to {pause} isolate them .Professor B: Otherwise known as the German, Dutch , and Spanish .Postdoc A: Yeah . Sorry . It was {disfmarker} it was not the best characterization .Grad F: Mm - hmm .Postdoc A: But what {disfmarker} {vocalsound} what I meant to say was that it 's the othergroup that 's not {disfmarker} n no m no overlap with our present members . And then maybe it 'd be good to set an explicit deadline , something like {pause} a week {pause} before that , uh , J July fifteenth date , ortwo weeks before .Professor B: I mean , I would suggest we discuss {disfmarker} I mean , if we 're going to have a policy on it , that we discuss the length of time that we want to give people ,Grad F: Mm - hmm.Professor B: so that we have a uniform thing . So , tha that 's a month , which is fine . I mean , it seems {disfmarker}PhD C: Twelve hours .Grad F: Well , the only thing I said in the email is that {pause} the data isgoing to be released on the fifteenth . I didn't give any other deadline .Postdoc A: Mm - hmm .Grad F: So my feeling is if someone after the fifteenth says , " wow I suddenly found something " , we 'll delete it from ourrecord . We just won't delete it from whatever 's already been released .Postdoc A: Hmm . That 's a little bit difficult .Grad F: What else can we do ?Postdoc A: Yeah .Grad F: If someone says " hey , look , I {pause}found something in this meeting and {pause} it 's libelous and I want it removed " . What can we do ?Postdoc A: Well . {pause} That 's true .Grad F: We have to remove it .Postdoc A: I {disfmarker} I agree with thatpart , but I think that it would {disfmarker} it , uh {disfmarker} we need to have , uh , a {disfmarker} a {disfmarker} a message to them very clearly that {vocalsound} beyond this date , you can't make additionalchanges .Professor B: I mean , um , I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} {vocalsound} i I think that somebody might {pause} request something even though we say that . But I think it 's good to at least start some placelike that .Postdoc A: Mm - hmm . Good .Professor B: So if we agreed , {vocalsound} OK , how long is a reasonable amount of time for people to have {disfmarker} if we say two weeks , or if we say a month , I think weshould just say that {disfmarker} say that , you know , i a as {pause} um , {vocalsound} " per the {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} the , uh , page you signed , you have the ability to look over this stuff " and so forth "and , uh , because we w " these , uh {disfmarker} I would {disfmarker} I would imagine some sort of generic thing that would say " because we , uh , will continually be making these things available {vocalsound} toother researchers , uh , this can't be open - ended and so , uh , uh , please give us back your response within this am you know , within this amount of time " , whatever time we agree upon .Grad F: Well , did you readthe email and look at the pages I sent ?Professor B: Did I ? No , I haven't yet . No , just {disfmarker}Grad F: No . OK , well why don't you do that and then make comments on what you want me to change ?ProfessorB: No , no . I 'm not saying that you should change anything . I I 'm {disfmarker} what I 'm {disfmarker} what I 'm {disfmarker} {vocalsound} I 'm trying to spark a discussion hopefully among people who have read itso that {disfmarker} that you can {disfmarker} {vocalsound} you can , uh , decide on something .Postdoc A: Mm - hmm .Professor B: So I 'm not telling you what to decide .Postdoc A: Mm - hmm .Professor B: I 'mjust saying you should decide something ,Postdoc A: OK .Professor B: and then {disfmarker}Grad F: I already did decide something , and that 's what 's in the email .Postdoc A: Yeah , yeah . OK , so {disfmarker}GradF: And if you disagree with it , why don't you read it and give me comments on it ?Postdoc A: Yeah . Well {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I think that there 's one missing line .Professor B: Well , the one thing that I didread and that you just repeated to me {pause} was that you gave the specific date of July fifteenth .Grad F: Mm - hmm .Professor B: And you also just said that the reason you said that was because someone said it toyou . So what I 'm telling you {pause} is that what you should do is come up with a length of time that you guys think is enoughGrad F: Right .Professor B: and you should use that rather than {pause} this date thatyou just got from somewhere . That 's all I 'm saying .Grad F: OK .Professor B: OK ?Postdoc A: I ha I have one question . This is in the summer period and presumably people may be out of town . But we can make theassumption , can't we ? that , um , they will be receiving email , uh , most of the month . Right ? Because if someone {disfmarker}Professor B: It {disfmarker} well , it {disfmarker} well , you 're right . Sometimessomebody will be {pause} away and , uh , you know , there 's , uh {disfmarker} for any length of time that you {vocalsound} uh , choose {pause} there is some person sometime who will not {pause} end up reading it.Postdoc A: OK .Professor B: That 's {disfmarker} it 's , you know , just a certain risk to take .PhD H: S so maybe when {disfmarker} Am I on , by the way ?Grad F: I don't know . You should be .PhD H: Oh . Hello ?Hello ?Grad F: You should be channel B .PhD H: Oh , OK . Alright . So . The , um {disfmarker} Maybe we should say in {disfmarker} w you know , when the whole thing starts , when they sign the {disfmarker}{vocalsound} the agreement {vocalsound} that {disfmarker} you know , specify exactly uh , what , you know , how {disfmarker} how they will be contacted and they can , you know {disfmarker} they can be asked togive a phone number and an email address , or both . And , um , then {disfmarker}Postdoc A: We did that , I {disfmarker} I believe .PhD H: Right .PhD E: Yeah .PhD H: So . {vocalsound} A And , then , you know , sayvery clearly that if they don't {disfmarker} if we don't hear from them , you know , as Morgan suggested , by a certain time or after a certain {vocalsound} period after we contact them {vocalsound} that is implicitlygiving their agreement .Grad F: Well , they 've already signed a form .Postdoc A: And the form says {disfmarker}PhD E: And nobody {disfmarker} nobody really reads it anyway .PhD H: Right .Grad F: So . And the sand the form was approved by Human Subjects ,PhD H: Says that . Right .Postdoc A: Uh , the fPhD H: Well , if that 's i tha if that 's already {disfmarker} if {disfmarker}Grad F: so , eh , that 's gonna be a little hard tomodify .Postdoc A: Well , the form {disfmarker} Well , the form doesn't say , if {disfmarker} uh , you know , " if you don't respond by X number of days or X number of weeks {disfmarker} "PhD H: I see . Uh{disfmarker} Oh , OK . So what does it say about the {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} the process of {disfmarker} of , uh {disfmarker} {vocalsound} y the review process ?Postdoc A: It doesn't have a time limit . Thatyou 'll be provided access to the transcripts and then , uh , allowed to {pause} remove things that you 'd like to remove , before it goes to the general {disfmarker} uh , larger audience .PhD H: Oh , OK . Hmm . Right.Grad F: Here .Postdoc A: There you go .Grad F: You can read what you already signed .PhD H: Oh .PhD E: I guess when I {pause} read it , um {disfmarker}PhD H: OK .PhD E: I 'm not as diligent as Chuck , but I hadthe feeling I should probably respond and tell Adam , like , " I got this and I will do it by this date , and if you don't hear from me by then {disfmarker} " You know , in other words responding to your email {pause}once , right away , saying " as soon as you get this could you please respond . "Grad F: Right .PhD E: And then if you {disfmarker} if the person thinks they 'll need more time because they 're out of town or whatever ,they can tell you at that point ? Because {disfmarker}Grad F: Oh , I just {disfmarker} I didn't wanna do that , because I don't wanna have a discussion with every person {pause} if I can avoid it .PhD E: Well , it 's{disfmarker}Grad F: So what I wanted to do was just send it out and say " on the fifteenth , the data is released ,Postdoc A: Mm - hmm .Grad F: if you wanna do something about it , do something about it , but that 'sit " .Postdoc A: I {disfmarker} I kind of like this .PhD E: Well {disfmarker}Postdoc A: Yeah .PhD E: OK . So , we 're assuming that {disfmarker}PhD H: Well , that 's {disfmarker} that would be great if {disfmarker} butyou should probably have a {pause} legal person look at this and {pause} make sure it 's OK . Because if you {disfmarker} if you , uh , do this {vocalsound} and you {disfmarker} then there 's a dispute later and , uh ,some {disfmarker} {vocalsound} you know , someone who understands these matters concludes that they didn't have , uh , you know , enough opportunity to actually {vocalsound} exercise their {disfmarker} theirright {disfmarker}PhD E: Or they {disfmarker} they might never have gotten the email , because although they signed this , they don't know by which date to expect your email . And so {pause} someone whosemachine is down or whatever {disfmarker} I mean , we have no {disfmarker}Professor B: Mm - hmm .PhD E: in internally we know that people are there ,Grad F: Well , OK . l Let me {disfmarker} Let me reverse this.PhD E: but we have no confirmation that they got the mail .Grad F: So let 's say someone {disfmarker} I send this out , and someone doesn't respond . Do we delete every meeting that they were in ?PhD E: Well ,then {disfmarker}Grad F: I don't think so .PhD E: It {disfmarker} we 're hoping that doesn't happen ,PhD H: No .PhD E: but that 's why there 's such a thing as registered mailGrad F: That will happen .PhD E: or{disfmarker}PhD H: That will happen .PhD E: Right .Grad F: That will absolutely happen . Because people don't read their email , or they 'll read and say " I don't care about that , I 'm not gonna delete anything " andthey don just won't reply to it .PhD H: Maybe {disfmarker} uh , do we have mailing addresses for these people ?Grad F: No . We have what they put on the speaker form ,PhD H: No .Postdoc A: Well {disfmarker}{comment} {vocalsound} Most {disfmarker}Grad F: which was just generic contact information .PhD H: Oh .Postdoc A: But the ones that we 're dealing with now are all local ,PhD H: Well , then {disfmarker}Postdoc A:except the ones who {disfmarker} I mean , we {disfmarker} we 're totally in contact with all the ones in those two groups .PhD H: Mmm . OK .Postdoc A: So maybe , uh , I {disfmarker} you know , that 's not thatmany people and if I {disfmarker} if , uh {disfmarker} i i there is an advantage to having them admit {disfmarker} and if I can help with {disfmarker} with processing that , I will . It 's {disfmarker} it 's {disfmarker}there is an advantage to having them be on record as having received the mail and indicating {disfmarker}Grad F: Yeah . I mean I thought we had discussed this , like , a year ago .Postdoc A: Yes , we did .Grad F: Andso it seems like this is a little odd for it to be coming up yet again .Postdoc A: You 're right . Well , I {disfmarker} you know . But sometimes {disfmarker}Professor B: Well , we {disfmarker} we haven't experienced itbefore .Grad F: So .Postdoc A: That 's right .Professor B: Right ? So {disfmarker}PhD E: You 'll either wonder {pause} at the beginning or you 'll wonder at the end .Postdoc A: Need to get it right .PhD E: I mean , there's no way to get around {disfmarker} I It 's pretty much the same am amount of work except for an additional email just saying they got the email .Postdoc A: Yeah .PhD E: And maybe it 's better legally to wonderbefore {disfmarker} you know , a little bit earlier than {disfmarker}Grad F: Well {disfmarker}Postdoc A: It 's much easier to explain {pause} this way .Grad F: OK . Well , why don't you talk {pause} tPostdoc A: T t tohave it on record .Grad F: Morgan , can you talk to our lawyer about it , and find out what the status is on this ? Cuz I don't wanna do something that we don't need to .Postdoc A: Yeah , but w Mmm .Grad F: Becausewhat {disfmarker} I 'm telling you , people won't respond to the email . No matter what you do , you there 're gonna be people who {pause} you 're gonna have to make a lot of effort to get in contact with .Postdoc A:Well , then we make the effort .Grad D: I mean , i it 's kGrad F: And do we want to spend that effort ?PhD H: Hmm .Postdoc A: We make the effort .Grad D: It 's kind of like signing up for a mailing list . They have opt inand opt out . And there are two different ways . I mean , and either way works probably , I mean .Postdoc A: Except I really think in this case {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I 'm agr I agree with Liz , that we need to be{pause} in the clear and not have to after the fact say " oh , but I assumed " , and " oh , I 'm sorry that your email address was just accumulating mail without notifying you " , you know .Professor B: If this is a purelyadministrative task , we can actually have administration do it .Postdoc A: Oh , excellent .Professor B: But the thing is that , you know , I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I think , without going through a whole expensivething with our lawyers , {vocalsound} from my previous conversations with them , my {disfmarker} my sense very {pause} much is that we would want something on record {pause} as indicating that they actuallywere aware of this .Postdoc A: Yes .Grad F: Well , we had talked about this beforeProfessor B: Mm - hmm .Grad F: and I thought that we had even gone by the lawyers asking about that and they said you have to s


Project Manager: Hello again .User Interface: Hello .Industrial Designer: Hi . {vocalsound}Marketing: Hey , Project Manager .Project Manager: {vocalsound}User Interface: Um , Project Manager , I have something totell you .Project Manager: Mm yeah .User Interface: I have a little problems with my laptop .Project Manager: Okay .User Interface: And uh s s s so I had a little less time to complete .Project Manager: Okay .UserInterface: No , a little problem , uh {vocalsound} big problem . I just thought {disfmarker}Marketing: What was it , problem ?User Interface: Um , it didn't work anymore . {vocalsound}Marketing: The laptop ?UserInterface: The entire Windows uh {disfmarker}Marketing: It hang {disfmarker} hung .User Interface: It it hung . {vocalsound}Project Manager: {vocalsound}Marketing: Ha-ha . Oh . Project Manager .Project Manager:{vocalsound} Yes . {vocalsound} Yes .Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}Marketing: You're our Project Manager .Project Manager: {vocalsound} Your project manager . {vocalsound}Industrial Designer:{vocalsound}User Interface: {vocalsound}Project Manager: Welcome to the conceptual design meetingIndustrial Designer: {vocalsound} {vocalsound}Marketing: {vocalsound}Project Manager: for Real Reaction.Marketing: {vocalsound}Project Manager: Uh , hello again . Uh it's uh the same as the last time . Uh uh , also this time there will be uh three presentations .Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}Project Manager: And weum must uh reach a decision on uh the remote control concepts . Um uh , and at the end , uh I uh , when I finish it off I have some uh input from uh a master class I uh {vocalsound} visited . {vocalsound} {gap}information . {vocalsound}Marketing: {vocalsound}Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}User Interface: During lunch , yeah .Marketing: Master .User Interface: He's the master , yeah . {vocalsound} {vocalsound}ProjectManager: {vocalsound}Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}Project Manager: The the the the the concepts on uh {disfmarker} we uh {disfmarker} where we uh must reach a decision on . Um uh , our {disfmarker} fromuh are of two sorts .Marketing: Master of {disfmarker}Project Manager: Components concepts and user interface concepts . Uh , the first one is uh really about the the the the the total package uh with uh {disfmarker}Well , we have decided to do a {disfmarker} do the uh {disfmarker} with a touch-screen that must be a case around it so uh it won't be uh uh as breakable . Uh how how about the energy ? Can you uh can you reload itor uh just have batteries which you must exchange ? Uh , the user interface concept . Uh , with the type and uh the the supplements . So uh where to put what button . {vocalsound} And uh uh I would say uh{disfmarker} Jans , can you begin ?Industrial Designer: Yeah , sure .Project Manager: Okay .Marketing: {vocalsound}Project Manager: At the end , uh {disfmarker} I will take notes uh and at the end of the minutes uhwill uh be at the shared folder .Industrial Designer: Okay . Uh , let me see . I think it's this one . Ha .User Interface: Wow .Industrial Designer: Right . Uh , well , I'll be talking about the components .Marketing:{vocalsound}Industrial Designer: Uh , what I did was I reviewed previously used items uh by uh two two uh different uh age groups .Project Manager: Mm-hmm .Industrial Designer: Uh below forty five and above . Anduh I just uh watch what the differences are and I checked uh , well , what what d do we want , and {gap} how can we uh d aim a at uh the target group . Well uh what I found was that a senior um {disfmarker}ProjectManager: {vocalsound}Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} senior citizens uh {disfmarker} {vocalsound}Marketing: {vocalsound} I'm sorry . {vocalsound}Industrial Designer: Ye Ah , it's {vocalsound} it's okay.Marketing: Okay . Go on . {vocalsound}Industrial Designer: Uh {disfmarker} {vocalsound} They , well , they like more the {disfmarker} they like the traditional materials , like wood and and such more .Marketing:{vocalsound}Industrial Designer: Wood and chrome .Project Manager: {vocalsound}Industrial Designer: And uh uh they like uh straightforward shapes . Um , uh they they they they like luxurious uh styles , wherewhereas the young and dynamic , they like a more uh soft materials . Think of the Teletubbies , for instance .Project Manager: {vocalsound}Industrial Designer: Uh uh , soft and fluffy and colourful and{disfmarker}Marketing: {vocalsound}Industrial Designer: Well uh , shapes are curved and round .Marketing: {vocalsound}Industrial Designer: Y y you get {vocalsound} the picture . And uh they like sports andgaming , and that gives them uh the vitality . Uh , so w well uh , firsProject Manager: One one little question .Industrial Designer: Yes .Project Manager: Um about the the material .Industrial Designer: Yeah .ProjectManager: Uh a soft material for a remote control ?Industrial Designer: No , I'll I'll get to that .Project Manager: Okay . Yeah .Industrial Designer: You you'll see . Yeah .Project Manager: Thank you .{vocalsound}Industrial Designer: Uh , well f first off , let's start start with the energy . W I uh I had a choice between uh a few different uh sources .Project Manager: Mm-hmm .Industrial Designer: But uh the two basicsources that I found were the best possible were the battery uh versus kinetic . Uh kinetic , that's when you move something , then uh it gets energy . I figured , well that's ki kinda high-tech , when when you have aremote control that well , when you pick it up , it has power . That would be actually very nice , uh I figured .Project Manager: Oh .Industrial Designer: Well , we could also use a battery , that's a bit{disfmarker}Marketing: Yeah but when the power gets low , you have to shake it or something ?Project Manager: {vocalsound}User Interface: {vocalsound}Industrial Designer: Yeah . Yeah yeah , you c just you haveto shake it around a little bit .Marketing: Uh , and uh uh {disfmarker}Industrial Designer: And then then it d then it has some more uh energy .Project Manager: {vocalsound}Marketing: Hmm .Industrial Designer: Well, y you could just go for a battery . Or you can go for both ?User Interface: Oh , have you considered the option of using a solar panel ?Industrial Designer: Yeah , I actually did . But uh the thing is about solar panel isyou have to have l uh light . Well , sunlight preferably .User Interface: W {gap} nah .Industrial Designer: Uh , and you you could you could use normal light , but uh you wouldn't get the same amount of energy thatyou would from a battery or something .User Interface: Mm . Yeah .Industrial Designer: Uh for uh ultimate b uh {vocalsound} n uh use of uh solar panels , you could actually use uh {disfmarker} you could use uh solarpanels , but uh you ha you'd have to implement them into uh the remote control , leaving you uh a bit less space for the interface .Marketing: Mm yeah . It's too less space .User Interface: Yeah .Industrial Designer: Souh {disfmarker} so i i it it wo what's actually {disfmarker} I I c just in f I've figured it out that well , uh seeing that you'll always be uh within the l uh distance of T_V_ , and the {disfmarker} from T_V_ there comes a aa whole bunch of light . So it would actually power itself uh from a T_V_ .Marketing: {vocalsound}User Interface: Yeah .Industrial Designer: But , well you just take up all the space , and you wouldn't uh have the fullamount of power actually used .User Interface: Okay .Project Manager: But you prefer kinetic ?Industrial Designer: So {disfmarker} I I prefer kinetic because it's uh {disfmarker} well , the costs aren't that much higher, and um , ju just a bit more high-tech than than a normal battery .Project Manager: Okay . Yeah , but you don't move a a remote control too much .Industrial Designer: I mean , if {disfmarker} No , but uh d Well , youpick it up and you press buttons and y well , you {disfmarker}Project Manager: And that's enough to to keep the energy level uh {disfmarker}Industrial Designer: Yeah , well uh actually it is .Project Manager: Okay.Industrial Designer: And it it {disfmarker} if it isn't , you just shake it a bit and and add add with power up again .Marketing: {vocalsound}Project Manager: {vocalsound}User Interface: Yeah .Industrial Designer: But, what l what Jarek said , you could you could use a battery that you'd just keep it on the recharging whenever it moves . And for rest , you'd just add juice on the battery .Project Manager: Okay .Marketing: And whenthe battery doesn't work , I usually shake it too . So {disfmarker}Project Manager: {vocalsound} Thank you , Tim . {vocalsound}User Interface: {vocalsound}Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Exactly .{vocalsound}Marketing: {vocalsound} Like slamming on it . {vocalsound} It's exactly the same . {vocalsound}Industrial Designer: And so that {disfmarker} Uh {disfmarker} {vocalsound} Uh well ,User Interface:{vocalsound}Industrial Designer: f furthermore , you you {disfmarker} we {gap} {disfmarker} uh checked uh the cases .Marketing: {vocalsound}Project Manager: {vocalsound}Industrial Designer: We have uhdifferent options uh concerning the cases . You ha I {disfmarker} you sim uh you simply add a basic uh standard uh model uh {disfmarker} it was kind of square and uh I figured that's a bit boring . So you you{disfmarker} we could go for uh the single curved or the double curved . Um , single curve , it's just a {disfmarker} well , uh , you know , it's just uh a nice curve . Or but but you could go in a in an double curves . Andthat's {gap} like several different dimensions .Project Manager: Yeah .Industrial Designer: That gives you an whole new uh effecProject Manager: Dynamic dynamic look ?Marketing: Hmm .Industrial Designer: Yeah ,that gives you a younger and uh more high-tech look , I f I figured . But , that uh we'll discuss later .Marketing: But , are you going to draw it ?Industrial Designer: What ?User Interface: Th th yeah . Yeah .IndustrialDesigner: You want me to draw in three-D_ ?Marketing: The {disfmarker} Yeah . Yeah .Project Manager: {vocalsound}Marketing: Uh , I c I can't imagine .Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Uh , yeah , I ca I ca I could Icould show you . I could show you .Marketing: I can't imagine how how how it looks like .User Interface: {vocalsound}Industrial Designer: Well uh let's say y uh you uh {disfmarker}Marketing: Yeah .IndustrialDesigner: Let's say that's your standard uh {disfmarker}Marketing: Design .User Interface: Yeah .Industrial Designer: That's a bit your d standard design . But you could actually go like uh something like this.Marketing: Mm-hmm .Industrial Designer: And then uh in three-D_ effect you could go {disfmarker} {vocalsound}User Interface: Um {disfmarker} {vocalsound}Marketing: Uh {disfmarker}Project Manager:{vocalsound} {vocalsound}Industrial Designer: So y you you just {disfmarker} Yeah , this is a {disfmarker} this {vocalsound} bit uh difficulty in {disfmarker}Marketing: {vocalsound}User Interface:{vocalsound}Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} I didn't take a major in art . So {disfmarker} {vocalsound} But but you could have uh uh a whole new uh the back back the the the depth , you could you could uh justplay around a bit with .Marketing: Oh , okay . Okay .Industrial Designer: You you don't have to use standard uh {disfmarker}Marketing: Oh , okay .Project Manager: A little artistic .Industrial Designer: Yeah you could{disfmarker} y It leaves more space for creativity .Project Manager: Okay .Industrial Designer: Uh that might be an idea ,Marketing: Okay .Industrial Designer: but {vocalsound} just a {disfmarker} Well , furthermore, uh well , uh plastic versus rubber ? You {disfmarker} We could choose uh what uh what's better , plastic um or rubber . I I ch prefer rubber because it feels uh {disfmarker} Yeah .Project Manager: It's soft .IndustrialDesigner: Yeah , it's soft and it's {disfmarker} that {disfmarker} {vocalsound} I like soft .Project Manager: {vocalsound} That's the material the younger people want uh , ain't it ?User Interface:{vocalsound}Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Yeah , yeah I mean uh plastic uh is {disfmarker} Plastic also has that cheap feeling to it , {vocalsound} like plastic uh {disfmarker} Your your {disfmarker} I usuallyassociate plastic with uh something that's cheap . Uh that's maybe just me , but {disfmarker} Uh , we could uh uh , oh , talk about it later . Uh furthermore , buttons . Uh traditional uh or a touch screen . Well , wediscussed it in a previous meeting , so I figured I'll just leave it at the L_C_D_ . And uh chip set , well uh if we are going to use traditional buttons , we could go uh with a simple chip set . But uh if we decide to go on a nuh um L_C_D_ screen , we would use an uh {disfmarker} we have to use an a advanced chip set . And that would bring uh the necessary costs with with it . So that's something we th have to keep in mind . If it isn't uhmanageable uh budget-wise , we'd have to go over to uh to sim to simple buttons .Marketing: Well , I think uh we're going to sell tell {disfmarker} ten millions of them . So uh I bet a big company in uh Korea or Taiwan, like uh Samsung , can give us uh a big discount on the chips , so {disfmarker}Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}User Interface: Yeah .Industrial Designer: Yeah . Yeah , probably .Marketing: U usually , chips are uharen't more expensive than one dollar .Industrial Designer: Yeah , probably , but {disfmarker} But uh yeah , that's that's {disfmarker}Marketing: So {disfmarker} {vocalsound} That that shouldn't be a real issue , Ithink .Industrial Designer: That shouldn't shouldn't be uh that big a issue . I'll I'll I'll just add , uh uh I put a big summary here , so we could discuss it a bit . Uh {gap} what i what are your ideas {gap} concerningbattery versus kinetic ?Marketing: {vocalsound}User Interface: Um , I think you should use kinetic as a back-up .Industrial Designer: Yeah , you you you should {disfmarker} we should {disfmarker}Marketing: Yeah , acombination .User Interface: A combination , yeah .Industrial Designer: A combination . Uh , {gap} you use the battery and w charge it up with kinetic . When you pick it up , it charges up .Marketing: Yeah . Like an uhaku uh {disfmarker}Industrial Designer: Yeah .Marketing: Acu uh , yeah .Industrial Designer: Yeah yeah , I know .User Interface: Okay . Yeah .Project Manager: Just like the watch from Seiko .Marketing: {vocalsound}Well , {gap} . Yeah .User Interface: Psycho-kinetic . {vocalsound} Yeah .Industrial Designer: Yeah , I con Exactly .Project Manager: Yeah .Industrial Designer: What uh what do you think ?Project Manager: I I uh Iwould prefer uh both uh too .Industrial Designer: You agree ?Project Manager: Yeah . Combine them .Industrial Designer: Yeah ? Both ?Marketing: Combine them .Industrial Designer: Okay . Uh , well that would bringthe m m some more costs , but I mean the {disfmarker}Marketing: {vocalsound} Okay . {vocalsound}Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Who cares , right .Project Manager: {vocalsound}Industrial Designer:{vocalsound} That's the Project Manager's problem . {vocalsound}User Interface: Buy a fifty cents battery and uh {disfmarker}Marketing: {vocalsound} Of course . Fifty cent . {vocalsound}Project Manager:{vocalsound} {gap} {vocalsound}Industrial Designer: Yeah , {vocalsound} well {disfmarker} {vocalsound} Fifty cent uh {disfmarker}User Interface: {vocalsound}Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Uh , why doesn't{disfmarker} And then we have single-curved versus double-curved .User Interface: Well maybe I have something in my presentation to uh to cope with that .Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} That {disfmarker}{gap} Okay . No , we'll we'll just wait and uh {disfmarker} Uh , plastic versus rubber . Any ideas ?Marketing: Rubber .Project Manager: Rubber . Yeah .Industrial Designer: Uh , rubber ?User Interface: Um , isn'tpossible to make combination with kind of rubber is {gap} or bendable remotes where you've got a {gap} .Industrial Designer: You {disfmarker}User Interface: Or do you think it {disfmarker}Industrial Designer: Uh ,I figured it will be m rather than hard {disfmarker}User Interface: Rubber casing , yeah .Industrial Designer: Nah , rubber c uh this is a casing , yeah . Rubber casing ,Marketing: Rather hard .Industrial Designer:because well if you use an uh d a touch-screen , uh it's just a casing uh around it . So um , you could go for plastic , but I figured {disfmarker}User Interface: Yeah .Marketing: Yeah .User Interface: Um , well d Maybe Ican ask it right now the question that I have .Industrial Designer: I I I would choose rubber .User Interface: Uh , is it possible uh of {disfmarker} is it necessary to make a touch-screen square ? It isn't , I think , yeah?Industrial Designer: Well , m I don't know . No .Marketing: Well , I think that touch-screens are generally square .Project Manager: Yeah .Industrial Designer: Yeah .Marketing: But it's the case you put around it thatmakes the shape .User Interface: We're {disfmarker} We put fashion in electronics ,Industrial Designer: That isn't {disfmarker}User Interface: so maybe we can uh {disfmarker}Marketing: Hmm ? Yeah okay , but ifyou have a square uh L_C_D_ screen , and you put a case around it that has uh like bulbs or that that covers part of the L_C_D_ screen .User Interface: Mm yeah .Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}User Interface:Mm-hmm .Industrial Designer: Yeah , that would cover it .Marketing: That {disfmarker}Industrial Designer: That that would solve the problem .User Interface: Oh , yeah . Okay , I I get it .Marketing: That's{disfmarker} it's custom customisable and {disfmarker}Project Manager: Mm yeah .Industrial Designer: So mm {disfmarker} Uh uh so uh so what are the opinions ? Uh rubber or plastic ? I I I prefer rubber .Marketing:Yeah , me too .Project Manager: Me too .User Interface: Okay .Project Manager: Yeah ?Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Yeah , you too ?User Interface: That's good .Industrial Designer: You sure ? You {gap} you youseemed to hesitate a bit .User Interface: Well , as long a as long as it's it's uh it's firm , and you don't uh {disfmarker} it's not bendable or something ,Project Manager: {vocalsound}Marketing: Mm yeah .UserInterface: I th I think that goes too far .Industrial Designer: Yeah , it it shouldn't it shouldn't flop over when you hold it in your hand uhProject Manager: Okay .User Interface: Oh . {vocalsound}Industrial Designer:{disfmarker} {vocalsound} {vocalsound} No , that that that that's gonna {disfmarker} The the chip set will hold it firm in place ,Marketing: {vocalsound} {vocalsound} {vocalsound}User Interface: Okay .IndustrialDesigner: and uh and and uh and a L_C_D_ screen also {disfmarker}User Interface: It might even bounce back when you drop it on the floor .Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Yeah it {vocalsound} m might it might.Project Manager: {vocalsound}User Interface: {vocalsound} Okay .Marketing: {vocalsound}Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Uh , tra uh traditional versus L_C_D_ , well I figured we we all set on that .Marketing:{vocalsound}Industrial Designer: And uh , then also the simple versus advanced . Well I figure if we go for L_ L_C_D_ , we we should have the advanced .Project Manager: Mm yeah .Industrial Designer: So thatshouldn't be a problem .Marketing: Yeah .Industrial Designer: Okay , well that's my uh {disfmarker}Project Manager: Thank you .Industrial Designer: Uh , you're welcome .Marketing: Can I uh do my thing ?ProjectManager: Yeah . Do your thing , Tim .Marketing: It uh {disfmarker} {vocalsound}User Interface: Do your thing . {vocalsound}Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} {gap} {vocalsound}Project Manager: Bring it on .{vocalsound}Marketing: {vocalsound} Expert map .User Interface: {vocalsound}Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}Marketing: Okay uh {disfmarker} Last weekProject Manager: {vocalsound}Marketing: I went to uhParis and Milan for some trend-watching .Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}Marketing: For marketing . Our research and development department and I went to Paris and Milan . In Paris and Milan , we uh askeddifferent people , uh differing in age and in income , uh the amount of money to spend , um {vocalsound} what they like in design uh and material nowadays . Findings . Our main audience , uh so that's people belowforty , uh prefer the following . At first , the colours of fruit .Project Manager: {vocalsound}Marketing: Very basic colours , like Janus explained . Um , fresh colours , uh green , red , uh strawberry red , uh yellow ,banana yellow .Project Manager: {vocalsound}Marketing: {vocalsound} Um , considering material , um {disfmarker} {vocalsound} Yeah . They like spongy material ,Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}User Interface:Spongeball .Marketing: like {disfmarker} yeah a sponge-ball .User Interface: {vocalsound}Marketing: Like a s soft material .Project Manager: Yeah .Marketing: Janus m uh mentioned it also . I think he did some uh