Lynne Neagle AM: Good morning, everyone. Welcome to the Children, Young People and Education Committee this morning. I have received apologies for absence from Jack Sargeant, and I'm very pleased to welcomeVikki Howells, who is substituting for Jack this morning. Can I ask whether there are any declarations of interest from Members, please? No. Okay. Thank you. Item 2 this morning is our last evidence session on theChildren (Abolition of Defence of Reasonable Punishment) (Wales) Bill, and I'm really pleased to welcome back Julie Morgan AM, Deputy Minister for Health and Social Services; Karen Cornish, who is deputy director ofthe children and families division; and Emma Gammon, who is the lawyer working on the Bill. So, thank you all for coming. If you're happy, we'll go straight into questions because we've got lots of ground that we wantto cover, and the first questions are from Janet Finch-Saunders.Janet Finch-Saunders AM: Good morning. Thank you, Chair. Good morning, Deputy Minister. Of those individuals who responded to our writtenconsultation in a personal capacity, nearly 70 per cent do not support this Bill. We also heard a clear message from the parents we met last week who oppose this Bill that, as parents, they understand clearly thedifference between child abuse and a light smack from a loving parent. How would you like to respond to that?Julie Morgan AM: Thank you very much, Janet, for that question. I think I'd like to start by saying that childabuse is not the issue that the Bill is trying to address. What the Bill is trying to do is prohibit all forms of physical punishment, and that is in order to protect children's rights and to ensure that children have the sameprotection from physical punishment as adults. But I do understand that people have different views, and that's why this process has been so important—for us to hear what your views are and what parents' views are.I know that, often, people use different euphemisms really to make light of physical punishment. I've heard expressions used such as a 'light smack' or a 'loving smack' or a 'tap', and really there can be differentinterpretations of what is a 'light smack', what is a 'loving smack', and that doesn't really cover the issue of the frequency of such actions being taken. But I would say that, however mild it seems to be, the UnitedNations Committee on the Rights of the Child recognises that any physical punishment of children, however minor, is incompatible with their human rights, and why should a big person hit a little person? That's beenthe sort of mantra, really, that has taken me through supporting this legislation—that it just seems wrong to me that there is something in the law that could mean that there could be an excuse for that happening. Ibelieve we shouldn't have anything in the law that defends the physical punishment of children, and I don't think we should be defining acceptable ways of hitting or punishing children, because I think it does send aconfused message to children. It says, 'It's okay for me to hit you, but don't you hit anybody else.' I think it causes confusion. So, I'm confident that updating the law will make it much clearer for parents and peopleworking with children—and, of course, I'm sure, as you'll have heard from the evidence you've taken, that people who work with children are overwhelmingly in support of this legislation, and the representative surveysthat we've carried out show support for the Bill's principles.Janet Finch-Saunders AM: Thank you, Deputy Minister. Last week, during the workshop, a few parents—predominantly all of them, actually—said that they usea gentle tap or smacking as part of a toolkit of ways to deal with challenging behaviour or, sometimes, for the safety of the child or, indeed, to carry out the parenting of a child. How do you intend to work with parentsgoing forward, given the finite resources that social care and social services have? I know from the responses we've received to the consultation that parents themselves who have to parent 24 hours a day, seven daysa week, they are really, on the scale of things, very upset about this. How do you intend to try and get your message across to those parents on removing what they consider to be part of their toolkit when raisingchildren? How do you intend to deal with that aspect?Julie Morgan AM: Well, first of all, I want to say, as I've said in most evidence sessions, that I completely accept that bringing up children is hard. It's very difficult;many of us have done it and we know how tough it can be. But we don't think that there is any place for physical punishment in bringing up children. There's a whole range of other ways that you can help parents bringup children, and advice you can give them of different methods to use. But, the clear message of this Bill is that we don't want any physical punishment; we don't think it's the right thing to do, and we believe that weare supported by many people in that view.Janet Finch-Saunders AM: Thank you.Lynne Neagle AM: You've got other questions, Janet.Janet Finch-Saunders AM: Okay. Oh, yes. Several consultation responses refer tostatistics from Sweden, which they say show that child-on-child violence actually increased by 1,791 per cent between 1984 and 2010, following the ban on physical punishment in 1979. What is your view on thesefigures and how can we be certain that this Bill won't lead to other long-term negative outcomes in Wales?Julie Morgan AM: Well, I'm aware of the debate surrounding the interpretation of the different statistics fromSweden. What's happened, really, in the academic research is that different academics are focused on different figures to support their views, and the methodological ways of doing it makes it quite difficult to havecausation. I was very encouraged that a recent study of 88 countries concluded that if a country prohibits corporal punishment, the result is association with less youth violence, and this is one of the largestcross-national analyses of youth violence, with more than 400,000 participants. So, there is other evidence, very widespread evidence, which looks at a whole range of people, that is in contrast to the Swedishevidence. But, evidence in this field is mixed and we have considered a wide range of research and reviews, but ultimately the decision is one that is based on our commitment to children's rights.Janet Finch-SaundersAM: Okay, thank you.Lynne Neagle AM: Do you want question 3?Janet Finch-Saunders AM: I can do it, yes. The Bill's explanatory memorandum says that 'there is no definitive evidence that "reasonable" physicalpunishment causes negative outcomes for children'. However, we have heard from Equal Protection Network Cymru that international evidence could not be clearer and that they found the Wales Centre for PublicPolicy's report, on which the explanatory memorandum is based, very confusing and very frustrating, and that it didn't tie in with what they knew. How would you respond to those viewpoints?Julie Morgan AM: We werevery keen to get as balanced research as we possibly could, and we didn't want to just put forward views that we thought agreed with our point of view. So, we were trying to give a balanced point of view, but we didcommission the Wales Centre for Public Policy to do an independent literature review and we're honestly reporting to you what they said. But they did make it clear, again, which I think I've said in previous evidencesessions, that all physical punishment, under all conditions, is potentially harmful to children. And certainly, there is no peer-reviewed research that says that physically punishing a child is going to improve things, hasfavourable outcomes. So, I understand what Equal Protection Network Cymru are saying, because there is a lot of very strong evidence, but we're giving you the evidence that we had from the research that wecommissioned.Lynne Neagle AM: Thank you. We've got some questions now from Suzy on implementation.Suzy Davies AM: Thank you, Chair. I've just got a couple of questions on this balance between the steps thatwill be needed to implement this Bill and the impact that it'll actually have. You've probably heard in evidence that we've received that there are still some concerns out there about how agencies might address maliciousreporting; some detail about how the public interest test might be applied further along the line; what's going to happen with out-of-hours provision from social services, and so on. There are still, from our perspective,quite a few things that are unknown about the effect on our public services in particular of the implementation of this Bill. Would you agree that perhaps we should know a little bit more about that before we proceedwith supporting the Bill?Julie Morgan AM: Well, it's very difficult, bringing in this legislation that hasn't been done before. It's very difficult to gauge the impact, and we've covered that, I know, in previous discussions.But I think it's very important to say that we are not creating a new offence. The Bill is removing a defence to an offence of common assault. And I think it's an interesting point to make that, in Ireland, they introducedsimilar legislation through an amendment to a Bill, and had no detailed preparation for bringing in the Bill, and in fact there's no evidence that this has caused any difficulties, and no significant negative impacts orincrease in workload. But in any case, we have our implementation group, which is going to address many of these issues. This met on 14 May. That was the first meeting. You see, I think we do have to take a balancebetween assuming this Bill is going to go through and what we can actually do. We can't presume that the Assembly will accept this Bill, so we have to be staged in what we do. But we had the first strategicimplementation group on 14 May, and we had representatives from the police, the police and crime commissioners, the Crown Prosecution Service, the Association of Directors of Social Services Cymru, the Associationof Directors of Education in Wales, the Welsh Local Government Association, the legal profession and the third sector. They're all there, and they're all very keen to make this legislation work and to look at theimplications of it. I'd just like to say how grateful I am for all those organisations giving their time and commitment. They've set up four work streams, looking at parenting advice and support; data collection, evaluationand monitoring; operations, procedures and processes; and out-of-court disposals and diversions. These groups will be taking forward this work and will be looking at many of those issues that you've mentioned, andwill also be updated on the progress of the awareness strategy that we will be bringing in. I'm really confident that the legislation will be implemented in a very practical and workable way, because we do have thecommitment of all these agencies, and there's been a huge amount of preparation done in the Welsh Government to prepare for this in a way that, I have to say, hasn't been done in some of the other countries—as Imentioned, in Ireland. So, as much preparation as could be done is being done and has been done, but we really now see that the implementation group is taking forward all these issues, and obviously those agenciesthat are taking part in the implementation group are, on the whole, in support of the principles of this Bill.Suzy Davies AM: Well, thank you for that, Minister, but the way I look at this is that you've already said that, ifthis Bill passes—and it will pass; it's in enough manifestos to pass, so the question is what type of Bill is going to pass—and if there is a gap of, let's say, two years before anything is implemented, and theimplementation group is doing the work that you've described—and we're very relieved to hear that—why is this Bill being introduced now when that implementation group hasn't really come up with a strategy thatcould help persuade people about what implementing this Bill would look like in real life? You're asking the Welsh public to take a bit of a chance on this.Julie Morgan AM: I think we have, as far as possible, looked atinternational evidence where this legislation has been introduced. It's different for different countries, so I know it's difficult to get anything that's absolutely linked. But I don't agree that it's a bit of a chance, really. Ithink we are preparing very well and very carefully. As the team who have been working on this have worked through the preparation for the Bill, lots of issues have arisen as they've done that, and so you have to dothat, I think, alongside the actual practical implications with the groups that are coming together, and I think the point at which we've done that is probably just about right, really.Suzy Davies AM: Okay. I hope this isn'tgoing on to somebody else's questions, but accepting what you say, would you then be open to accepting amendments to the face of the Bill that would clarify the position for the Welsh public on certain things that maybe of concern to them, which have been fed through to us? I'm not suggesting anything specific, but—.Julie Morgan AM: No, no. I mean, the position is that it is a very simple, one-clause Bill. We want to keep it assimple as possible, but I'm certainly prepared to consider any issues that come up, and I think that's been the case all along. Although our preference is to keep it simple.Suzy Davies AM: I understand that. It's justwhat's going to work as a bit of law here, isn't it? And then just finally from me, and you've made the point to a degree, that, of course, not all countries are like Wales. If we look at Ireland, and New Zealand's the onewe've been looking at an awful lot, which are the most similar, their work hasn't really been in place for that long, and one of the things that, I think, you're going to need to be able persuade us of is that if the culturechange to which we've already referred is going in one way anyway, and if it continues to go in that direction, that this Bill will have had a causal effect. I'm trying to establish whether the culture change is going tohappen anyway, whether or not we pass this legislation.Julie Morgan AM: Well, it does look as if a culture change is happening in any case, but the culture change will never really move, I think, as most of us want it, ifthere is legislation that does appear to condone the use of physical punishment, and having this reasonable punishment in law means that happens. So, I think, passing the legislation by itself will certainly not doeverything—Suzy Davies AM: No. And you'll be aware that this is to go with it. I get that, but—Julie Morgan AM: You've got to have—. And I think the research has all shown you've got to have an awareness campaignrunning along with it. That is shown. And in the other countries we've looked at, I don't think an awareness campaign was actually carried out because we are planning a really big awareness campaign because we thinkit's absolutely fair to the Welsh public, as you said, that they absolutely know what we're doing and everybody's aware of it. So, I think it is—.Suzy Davies AM: Okay. Well, can I just finish—?Julie Morgan AM: I know thepoint you're making. You're saying that this would happen in any case, maybe.Suzy Davies AM: I'm suggesting it.Julie Morgan AM: But if you've got a bit of legislation there on the Bill, it will always mean that for a veryminority group of parents, they will feel that they have got the right to use physical punishment against their child, and I just think it's something we should get rid of. I think it's an anachronism and it's something weshould—. And I think Wales has been very strong on children's rights. We've got rid of physical punishment in schools, child minders, regulated care settings. And, of course, the other point that I don't think we sayenough about is that it's not just parents; it's people in loco parentis who are working in leisure centres or religious establishments or any of those unregulated settings who also have this defence. So, it's last bit in thejigsaw, really, to have it quite clear that we want to treat our children with respect and dignity and I think this will move us towards that.Suzy Davies AM: Okay. Well, it's the argument you've made before. I think whatI was trying to get to is: how are we going to prove that this piece of legislation has worked effectively? It's about the data capture, I guess.Julie Morgan AM: Yes.Suzy Davies AM: What are you going to do to make surethat you acquire evidence in the future to show that this has worked, or potentially not worked? I'd be surprised if that was the case, but—. Because, of course, that has an implication then on the resources for thevarious people you'll be asking to collect the data.Julie Morgan AM: Yes. I think that's very important because we need to know what is the effect of the legislation we'll be bringing in. So, we will be having ongoingevaluation, we will be bringing in an independent body to evaluate. We have got ongoing monitoring and we've got ongoing monitoring surveys looking at what are the views of the public. So, yes—Suzy Davies AM: It'llbe directly linked to the Bill, then, rather than that broad culture change.Julie Morgan AM: The monitoring, asking the views of the public, is generally about issues related to the Bill. The views of parents about whetherthis legislation—Suzy Davies AM: Sorry, I don't want to labour this point.Julie Morgan AM: And awareness. How aware they are.Suzy Davies AM: Basically, we need a question, 'Has this Bill stopped you smacking yourchild?' That's the core question. So, phrase it differently, yes?Julie Morgan AM: Yes. Well, we are in the surveys asking how many people feel that they do smack their child, but this is any physical punishment, actually,not just smacking—Suzy Davies AM: And it's for the future, not for now.Julie Morgan AM: —and how many, actually, are doing that. And it is consistently going down, as you said.Suzy Davies AM: Thank you. I don'twant to take it any further.Lynne Neagle AM: Thank you. We're going to move on to explore some of the issues around social services now with questions from Dawn Bowden.Dawn Bowden AM: Thank you, Chair.Morning, Minister. When the Association of Directors of Social Services Cymru came in, they were saying to us that they would encourage people to report any instances, anything that they see around somebodysmacking a child. That leads on to the question about whether in fact social services, then, would change their thresholds for intervention if there were more cases being referred to them. Are you fairly confident, areyou certain, that that wouldn't happen, or do you think there is a danger that social services might actually say, 'Well, actually, if we're getting all these referrals, we need to think again about when and if we intervene',and the thresholds could become a bit lower?Julie Morgan AM: Well, as you know, social services already receive and investigate reports of children being physically punished—any sort of range of physicalpunishment—and they use standard procedures to determine how to proceed, but that's done on a case-by-case basis; it's made on the individual case element. And, of course, there is a distinction between reasonablepunishment and child neglect or abuse. And if this legislation is enacted, a significant proportion of the incidents of physical punishment will not require any response under the child protection procedures, and we do notexpect the threshold of significant harm to change. And I know you took evidence from the ADSS, and I know Sally Jenkins gave evidence, who is one of the lead practitioners, and I understood she said: 'In terms ofthresholds for children's services, we would not be anticipating a huge number of referrals to us. There may be a small number of referrals that come through. What we know from other nations is that it will peak andthen settle. We recognise that's likely to happen.' So, I think—Dawn Bowden AM: So, it's the threshold for intervention that's the key, really, isn't it, rather than—?Julie Morgan AM: Yes, they don't see thatchanging.Dawn Bowden AM: So, they don't see that changing.Julie Morgan AM: No, no. And we don't see that changing.Dawn Bowden AM: Okay, that's fine. The police, when they came in to give evidence, talked aboutthe need for the multi-agency safeguarding hubs. And what we also heard is that it's a bit inconsistent across the country. And I think you acknowledged that as well. Do you think the implementation of the Bill, and itseffectiveness, is going to be dependent on us having consistently effective multi-agency safeguarding hubs right the way across the country?Julie Morgan AM: No. The effective implementation of the Bill does notdepend on MASHs, as we call them for short, because bodies, social services, already work closely with the police on a day-to-day basis, really, and they have indicated their willingness to do so, and there are alreadywell-established mechanisms in place that enable this joint working to take place. I know that the MASHs are only in certain areas, and I know that it's—. I think they're probably very good to have, actually, and very


Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}Marketing: {vocalsound}Project Manager: {vocalsound}Marketing: {vocalsound} Hmm .Project Manager: Okay . Good morning everybody . Um I'm glad you could all come . I'm reallyexcited to start this team . Um I'm just gonna have a little PowerPoint presentation for us , for our kick-off meeting . My name is Rose Lindgren . I I'll be the Project Manager . Um our agenda today is we are gonna do alittle opening and then I'm gonna talk a little bit about the project , then we'll move into acquaintance such as getting to know each other a little bit , including a tool training exercise . And then we'll move into theproject plan , do a little discussion and close , since we only have twenty five minutes . First of all our project aim . Um we are creating a new remote control which we have three goals about , it needs to be original ,trendy and user-friendly . I'm hoping that we can all work together to achieve all three of those . Um so we're gonna divide us up into three {vocalsound} compa three parts . First the functional design which will be uhfirst we'll do individual work , come into a meeting , the conceptional design , individual work and a meeting , and then the detailed design , individual work and a meeting . So that we'll each be doing our own ideas andthen coming together and um collaborating . Okay , we're gonna get to know each other a little bit . So um , what we're gonna do is start off with um let's start off with Amina . Um Alima ,Industrial Designer: Alima.Project Manager: sorry , Alima .Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} {vocalsound}Project Manager: Um we're gonna do a little tool training , so we are gonna work with that whiteboard behind you . Um introduceyourself , um say one thing about yourself and then draw your favourite animal and tell us about it .Industrial Designer: Okay . Um I don't know which one of these I have to bring with me .Project Manager: Probablyboth .Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Right , so , I'm supposed to draw my favourite animal . I have no drawing skills whatsoever . But uh let's see , introduce myself . My name is Alima Bucciantini . Um I'm from thestate of Maine in the US . I'm doing nationalism studies , blah , blah , blah , and I have no artistic talents .Project Manager: How do you spell your name ?Industrial Designer: A_ L_ I_ M_ A_ .Project Manager: Thanks.Industrial Designer: Oh , and I guess I'm the Industrial Designer on this project . So let's see if I can getMarketing: {vocalsound} {vocalsound}Industrial Designer: um here . I will draw a little turtle for you all . Notnecessarily 'cause it's my absolute favourite animal , but just that I think they're drawable . And you have the pretty little shell going on . Some little eyes . Happy . There you go . That's a turtle .Marketing: Yes .ProjectManager: So what are your favourite characteristics ?Industrial Designer: Um . I I like the whole having a shell thing .Project Manager: Mm .Industrial Designer: It's quite cool carry your home around where you go ,um quite decorative little animals , they can swim , they can , they're very adaptable , they carry everything they need with them , um and they're easy to draw .Project Manager: {vocalsound} Excellent .UserInterface: {vocalsound}Project Manager: {vocalsound} Shall we just go around the table ?User Interface: Uh Okay . Well , my name is Iain uhProject Manager: Mm .User Interface: and I'm the User Interface Designerfor the project . Um . And I'll try and draw my favourite animal .Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} No ,User Interface: I'll {disfmarker} I should leave that one on thereIndustrial Designer: you can erase the turtle ,UserInterface: shouldn't I {vocalsound} before I callously rub it off .Industrial Designer: it's alright .Project Manager: Might be nice to have them all up there at same time .User Interface: {vocalsound} Um I'm not gonnadraw it quite to scale um .Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}User Interface: {vocalsound} Is that at least identifiable ?Industrial Designer: Snake .Marketing: Well .Project Manager: EmIndustrial Designer: Well ,UserInterface: It's a whale {vocalsound} , yes .Industrial Designer: snake ? {vocalsound} It's w {vocalsound}User Interface: {vocalsound} Thanks .Marketing: Oh my god , it's better than what I'm gonna be able to do.User Interface: {vocalsound} Um and , yeah , the reason I like whales is 'cause uh they're {disfmarker} well , first of all they're quite intelligent um and also they're they're kind of mysterious , like we don't really knowmuch about them or or understand how they work , how they form groups . And I just find them interesting animals .Marketing: Take my contraptions with me . Alright , I'm Jessy . I'm from around D_C_ ish sort of inthe U_S_ . And we're gonna keep the deep sea sort of theme going on , {gap} animal . Don't really know how to draw this . Just where can I {disfmarker} Mm . Mm . Maybe if I do the water ,Industrial Designer:{vocalsound}Marketing: but how ? Sort of give an idea . {vocalsound} I have no idea how one would explain this . Mm maybe with some whiskers . Briefly , it's supposed to be a seal .Project Manager:{vocalsound}Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}Marketing: You can imagine it in the water . I like them , because they are like playful and silly sort of have a good time . Not gonna try and pretend like I can get anybetter than that . {vocalsound}Project Manager: Mm 'kay . Mm 'kay ? I'm Rose and I'm Project Manager , {vocalsound} from California . Um . Hmm . {vocalsound} S {vocalsound}Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Oh,Marketing: It's definitely significantly harder once you are doing it .Industrial Designer: a cat .Project Manager: Um it's actually a coyote .Industrial Designer: Yeah .Project Manager: Let's see . Let's see ,IndustrialDesigner: Right .Marketing: {vocalsound} That's impressive .Project Manager: let's give it a little bit of a snout , I don't know , some teeth .Industrial Designer: That's {disfmarker}Project Manager: Yeah .IndustrialDesigner: That's pretty impressive .User Interface: Cool . {vocalsound}Project Manager: {vocalsound} Oh dear . {vocalsound} Yes .Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}Project Manager: I live um I live right across thestreet from an open space in California . We have coyotes howl all the time . So I really enjoy their their singing , you they're really beautiful animals . Mm . {vocalsound} Okay um , moving on to slightly more seriousstuff . We're gonna talk about project finances . Um we have a couple {vocalsound} we'd like to sell it for about twenty five Euro with the profit aim of um fifteen million Euro um from our sales and because this is such{disfmarker} this is for television it's a {disfmarker} we have a market range of Internet , like it's an international market range , we don't have to worry about specifics . Um in order to make a profit of this magnitude ,we need to um be able to produce each one at a maximum of twelve fifty Euro . So we're selling it for twice what we'd like to produce it for . Okay um , just to generate a little bit of discussion about the project um , Icould {disfmarker} I'd like to hear about your experiences using ro remote controls , um your first ideas about um creating a new r remote control , what would be the best um like you {disfmarker} what are thefeatures that you really like what are the features that you don't like , etcetera , so {disfmarker}Marketing: Um I hate when there's like four different buttons and you have to press to actually turn on the T_V_ like youhave to do one for the power of the T_V_ and then like another one to get the actual screen on and something else to get it all going , I don't know . Now they keep combining all different remotes together , and I don'tknow if I necessarily like that 'cause I feel like you end up with multimedia overload .User Interface: {vocalsound}Marketing: I just wanna watch the T_V_ {vocalsound} um .Project Manager: Hmm .Marketing:{vocalsound} Always gets lost . Some sort of like device to help you find it .User Interface: I've used , I've used remote controls , for things like T_V_ and the C_D_ player and video recorder and I I guess they'rethey're pretty neat neat little tools uh . You don't have to get up and walk across the room to change a channel .Project Manager: Mm .User Interface: So especially if you're someone really lazy like me they they'repretty nice . Um . I find them {disfmarker} they can be a bit annoying , especially , like you know if I'm watching T_V_ I have have to have three separate remote controls of {disfmarker} in front of me , you know ,one for the T_V_ , one for the digital box , one for m the video recorder as well . Um . And also they tend to they tend to be a bit confusing , they've got too many buttons on them uh too too sort of too sort ofcomplicated when all I really wanna do is switch on and off , change the channel , change the volume .Industrial Designer: Yeah um . I agree with having too many remotes around . My dad has a whole drawer at homeof remotes for various things , and I don't know how to work half of them um . What's important for me , I guess , is that it's easy to use and that there's not too many buttons , they are not too small , you know youknow you need to n to know what you're doing . And one thing I particularly like is if you are not um sort of moving it around to get it to work with the infra-red .Marketing: Yeah .Industrial Designer: Um , I think thereis a way around that ,User Interface: Yeah .Industrial Designer: but I know in my residence right now the the television you sort of have to walk all around the room to get it to turn on ,Project Manager: {vocalsound}Mm-hmm .Industrial Designer: so i it's just simpler just to just turn around the T_V_ itself , and I think that's {disfmarker} if we're gonna make a remote control , it should actually work for what it's doing . So{disfmarker}Marketing: What about like batteries and things like that , like are there some remotes that don don't require like batteries or do all remotes require batteries ?Project Manager: {vocalsound} Um I wouldimagine all of them ,Industrial Designer: I know .Project Manager: but we could {disfmarker} but it's possible we could use like a lithium battery um that would last a lot longer than like double A_s .Industrial Designer:Yeah , something that doesn't {disfmarker}Marketing: Mm-hmm .Project Manager: Um like tho those are the batteries that are used in a lot of um M_P_ three players now and that kind of thing . Um .Marketing:Mm-hmm .Industrial Designer: Mm .Project Manager: Um . Okay , it seems we have a little bit of a conflict over um to uh combining all the remotes cont together versus having f five different remotes . So um like yousaid you don't like having all the buttons on one on one remote , and yet you don't wanna have five remotes . So how do we work with that ?Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Yeah .User Interface: Mm .IndustrialDesigner: Could we get something that just has {disfmarker} No doesn't have all the buttons that you need to program the video recorder or program s other things that I'm not very coherent about , but that just hasyour major buttons for {disfmarker} that work for everything , you know volume control , on , off ,Project Manager: Mm-hmm .Industrial Designer: channel changing .Marketing: And maybe that spatially divides it , soit's like if you're looki if you're trying to get the T_V_ on that's , you know , like the top thing on the remote , I dunno if d be vertical or horizontal in terms of how we're gonna make it , but if it's like all the T_V_ stuffwas here ,Industrial Designer: Yeah .Marketing: then all the V_C_R_ stuff was here , all the {disfmarker} whatever else we have programmed into it it's all just in its separate place and not like all the on buttonstogether ,Project Manager: Mm .Industrial Designer: N that way {disfmarker} Yeah .Marketing: 'cause then you like , I don't even know what I'm turning on .Project Manager: Mm .Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}Yeah , and if um if you'd save the more complicated functions maybe for separate remotes that you wouldn't need to use every day .Marketing: {vocalsound} Mm-hmm .Project Manager: Okay , so maybe have like oneremote that has the main functions on , off , channel changing , volume , and another rote remote with all the special things .Industrial Designer: Um .Project Manager: Because that is one thing that um remotes tendto have buttons that the T_V_s no longer have as well .Industrial Designer: Yeah .Project Manager: So like you have to have them somewhere ,Industrial Designer: Mm .User Interface: Yeah .Project Manager: 'causeyou're gonna m need those special functions occasionally . Um but not necessarily on the m the normal remote .Industrial Designer: Right .User Interface: Can I ask , are we designing a remote control for a televisiononlyProject Manager: {vocalsound} Good question .User Interface: um , and if if this device is just to be used for the television would we even technically be possible to include video recorder functions on it ?ProjectManager: {vocalsound} I don't know that yet .User Interface: Um or should we just stick to just stick to having television television related buttons on it ?Industrial Designer: Mm .Project Manager: It's a good question .Um . {vocalsound} I'll look into that .Marketing: Mm-hmm hmm .Project Manager: If I can .User Interface: {vocalsound}Marketing: I think it's just T_V_ , I mean , if it {disfmarker} if we're taking it just {gap} newproduct a new television remote control that's not like {vocalsound} doesn't say .Industrial Designer: Mm yeah .Marketing: You know , things might be more advanced than that . {vocalsound}Project Manager: Mm.User Interface: {vocalsound} So we should {disfmarker} maybe we should assume that i t it's just a television that we're wanting to control .Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}User Interface: Well , I mean I suppose itwould be nice to have {vocalsound} playing and record and stop buttons on it for the video recorder as well I I don't know if that works technologically or not .Industrial Designer: Yes . I guess we have to define whatwhat we're aiming for . If it's just a television then that {disfmarker} it's a bit simpler , 'cause there's less buttons that would even need to be on it .User Interface: Yeah .Marketing: It's an idea with the buttons beingreally {gap} .Industrial Designer: Large . If you have older people or people like me that aren't very co-ordinated hand-eye , it's really quite important that you are not pressing a small like teeny mobiles phone sizebuttons , if we can help it .Marketing: Yeah .Project Manager: Mm .User Interface: Yeah .Project Manager: Okay . 'Kay sounds like we've had a good little discussion for our first ideas . Mind if we move on ? PsIndustrialDesigner: {vocalsound}Project Manager: mm okay .User Interface: 'Kay .Marketing: Mm-hmm .Project Manager: Um now our next meeting starts in thirty minutes . I believe we've actually been only working on thisthis one for about twenty , so we can continue discussing more new ideas if you'd like um ,Industrial Designer: Hmm .Project Manager: but this is just a breakdown of what we'll be doing individually . Um the industrialdesign , Alima will be doing um the working design .Industrial Designer: Yeah .Project Manager: Um the User Interface Designer , that's for {gap} . Technical functions , I guess like keeping in mind the buttons thing ,the size of the buttons . Um user requirements um , so you'll be hearing about different trends , uh about different things that people need , um I guess kind of the same uh discussion that we've been having , we'll getfrom the actual consum s consumers .Marketing: Mm-hmm .Project Manager: Mm 'kay um . And you will get specific instructions sent by your personal coach . I realised in this past one we we didn't have much , we justwanted to get a little brain-storming done . Um so very exited to see all your animals and how {disfmarker} what wonderful um artists we all are {vocalsound} um .User Interface: {vocalsound}Project Manager: Anyquestions ?Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}User Interface: What we're gonna be discussing at the next meeting ? Do we know that ?Project Manager: I haven't gotten an agenda yet , um I'll put that together . I'msure as we'll each get our own instructionUser Interface: Right .Project Manager: and then um because what we gonna do is first our individual actions and then we'll come back together . So I'm sure we'll all have moreconcrete things to contribute next timeUser Interface: Yep .Industrial Designer: 'Kay .User Interface: Yep .Industrial Designer: I'm sure we'll be busy .User Interface: {vocalsound}Project Manager: Mm 'kay um I'll typeup mi minutes and probably email those out to all of you . Um just including all the things that we talked about . Um .User Interface: Okay . Can you e-mail your slides as well ? Is that possible ?Project Manager: Yes , Iyes , I think I can . Mm-hmm .User Interface: CoolProject Manager: I'll just attach it to an email . And you're you're number two ,Industrial Designer: I'm two .Project Manager: three , four ?Marketing: I'm four .ProjectManager: Is that correct ? Okay .Industrial Designer: Alright .Project Manager: Excellent . It was lovely meeting you all .User Interface: 'KayProject Manager: Just make sure you keep checking the company web siteand the emails . {vocalsound}Industrial Designer: 'Kay .Project Manager: Let me see if I can do that right now .


Project Manager: {vocalsound} Alright , yeah . {gap} crack on {gap} . Okay so we'll start off with a quick overview of the minutes . I think to sum up the last meeting , would be to say um the requirements that we'veum set out . Those are we were going to go for what seemed to be a fairly minimal design based on uh a small joystick , {vocalsound} L_C_D_ and a couple of other buttons for navigation um with power being Isuppose one of the main single purpose buttons . Um we were also going to use {gap} novelty of being able to locate the remote control again via a small transmitter with any luck , the idea to try and separate us andalso because of the minimal design um looks like we'll be able to be fairly adventurous in the actual physical shape of our remote control with any luck . Um that pretty much sums up the last one . So we'll just crack on, um like to maybe start with the Industrial Designer if it's possible .Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Uh uh okay .Project Manager: Um uh the con today is the concep today .Industrial Designer: I'll just{disfmarker}Project Manager: This uh meeting is the conceptual design phase and is um {disfmarker} Sorry about this . {gap} . And is to cover things like um what the parts might be made of , um , can we uhoutsource these from elsewhere , um will we have to construct any items ourselves ?Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Uh I have a presentation {gap} I just saved it in the uh the folder .Project Manager: Yeah , okaywell I'll just uh I'll load it up then . Um {vocalsound} . Which one do yIndustrial Designer: Uh .Project Manager: Oh , interface concept ?User Interface: Yeah , that's me .Project Manager: That's you . We've got trendwatching , that's you .Industrial Designer: It's uh {disfmarker} Components design .Project Manager: Components design .Industrial Designer: {gap} .Project Manager: Okay .Industrial Designer: Alright . {vocalsound}So {disfmarker} {vocalsound} Uh . The case uh le that's what I wrote first of all , could be plastic our plastic . Uh but later on {gap} we found out that um it can be rubber as well , or titanium or even wood . So uh wedecide what it's gonna be . Probably plastic . Uh we need the infra-red transmitter . Get that off the shelf . Uh joystick we'll probably if we're gonna use it , um could be plastic w or rubber even as well . Um{vocalsound} if you go on to the next slide . Uh {disfmarker} {vocalsound} If you go on to f uh findings , it's like two or three slides down .Project Manager: Okay .Industrial Designer: Right . So , this is what I foundwe can use . Uh three different types of batteries . Um can either use a hand dynamo , or the kinetic type ones , you know that they use in watches , or else uh a solar powered one .Project Manager: Okay . Now,Industrial Designer: Um .Project Manager: the kinetic one , we've {disfmarker} 'cause that's the ones where like you {disfmarker} the movement causes it .Marketing: Cost is {disfmarker} Yeah .Industrial Designer:{vocalsound} Yeah .Project Manager: Um the bat uh the battery for a a watch wouldn't require a lot of power , would be my one query .User Interface: Mm .Project Manager: Is a kinetic one going to be able to supplyenough power ?User Interface: There's also a watch moves around a great deal more .Project Manager: Do you think ?Industrial Designer: Uh .Marketing: {vocalsound} Yeah .Project Manager: WIndustrial Designer:Yeah , I don't think it would . Um . And solar cells , I dunno about that .Marketing: {gap} yeah .Industrial Designer: Uh . We should probably just use conventional batteries . Um , just like in usual remote controls.Project Manager: Which I suppose as well would allow us to go off the shelf again , you'd say ?Industrial Designer: Um . Yeah . Um . {vocalsound} And these are three different types of {disfmarker} or two differenttypes {disfmarker} three different types of shapes you can have . Uh one is a flat one , and then more original ones are single curved one or one with a double curved . Um {vocalsound} the materials are tha there asyou can see , but uh you can't have a titanium one for a double curved ,Project Manager: {vocalsound}Marketing: Titanium , the really strong metal , titanium ?Industrial Designer: uh which would be {disfmarker}Yeah ,Marketing: Is it not also it's expensive ?Industrial Designer: and light . Uh , i think so as well , yeah .Project Manager: Um . Um .Industrial Designer: They make mountain bikes out of that , don't they . So it'sreally light as well .Project Manager: Curious . Um , I don't know if you'd be able to off the top of your head or not , the single curved and double curved , would you be able to give an example ?Industrial Designer: Um. {vocalsound} T yeah .Project Manager: Um could you maybe draw something ? I you don't doesn't have to be perfect , it's just 'cause I'm not quite sure if I understand the difference between the two .IndustrialDesigner: Uh . Well for a curved , well I was thinking to {disfmarker} f for to sit in your {disfmarker} the palm of your hand . Uh maybe like this , with the uh joy pad here . Joystick here . And maybe um an okaybutton around here , so that the thumb can uh use it quite easily . Um I don't exactly {vocalsound} {disfmarker} Double curved . It probably means {disfmarker} this is probably double curved . Uh whereas a singlecurved would be like that . I guess . Or not necessarily .Project Manager: So it might literally just be {disfmarker}Marketing: Two curves {gap} .Project Manager: okay .Industrial Designer: Yeah like that . Whereas thisis two curves . Um {vocalsound} so I guess that's what they mean by uh double curve .Project Manager: Alright .Industrial Designer: Um which obviously {disfmarker} it looks better than the single curve , but uh youcan't have it in titanium , which is uh a nice material . {vocalsound} UhProject Manager: Mm .Industrial Designer: and for the buttons , um it can have the scroll wheel which they use in mouses for com P_C_s . Uh butum it requires a more expensive chip to use , and if you wanna use L_C_D_ it's even more expensive . So you have to decide , there's trade-offs there . Um {vocalsound} if you want the buttons to be {disfmarker} ohyeah , if you have a double curve uh control and it's rubber , then you have these rubber buttons as well . But {vocalsound} you're gonna ha I reckon you're gonna have to have uh key a number keypad anyway for theamount of channels these days . You wouldn't want to just have to scroll through all the channels to get to the one you want . You wanna enter just the number of it , if you know it . So um I reckon we're gonna have tohave a number keypad anyway . Do you think ?Project Manager: Okay , that was definitely something we can talk about . Um so you've got a little bit about the the chip that we might require as well ?IndustrialDesigner: Yeah . So , depends where gonna spend the money if you want the f fancy L_C_D_ display .Project Manager: Um , do you have any idea so far , like when we're saying that we'd need an advanced chip for anL_C_D_ , does that in shoot the cost up by a drastic amount ? Or ?Marketing: Need an advanced chip for the L_C_D_ . Is that {disfmarker} did I {disfmarker}Project Manager: Well I think compared to say just pressing{gap} buttons .Industrial Designer: Yep .Marketing: Advanced , like three eight six advance .Project Manager: {gap} if you press a button that sends a certain transmission through the infra-red , whereas I think ifwe're controlling the L_C_D_ we definitely require a much more powerful chip . Just compared to the chip you would use for pushing buttons I think is the the point being made .Marketing: Okay . Okay , sure .UserInterface: Mm .Project Manager: If I've not over-stepped . Yeah ?Industrial Designer: Yeah iProject Manager: Okay , um should I go on , or go back ?Industrial Designer: Um {disfmarker} {vocalsound}Marketing: Mm ,if we only have twelve Pounds fifty , twelve Euros , not even twelve Pounds . Twelve Euros , what's that , like eight pounds or something like that , nine Pounds ?Project Manager: Well we'd also be relying on the um thebulk buying in producement and such . I assume .Marketing: Okay , that's good point .Project Manager: We have to look into the costs of those . So , sorry .Industrial Designer: Uh the previous slides just explain what'sin the internal components of the uh remote control . If you go to the one before that uh so it just says what it does , translate the key press into an infra-red signal and this is received by the T_V_ . Uh the chip justneeds to detect the signal or detect the key press and then uh it'll send it to the tr the amplifier .Project Manager: Okay .Industrial Designer: And uh then the next slide just shows how the uh copper wires uh interactwith the buttons , the rubber buttons , uh to uh get sent to the chip . So that's just how the control works inside . Um we have to decide on what buttons we're gonna use .Project Manager: Okay .Industrial Designer:{gap} .Project Manager: Um . {gap} . So in the information that you've been supplied , how feasible would you say that the idea of using an L_C_D_ looks ?Industrial Designer: Um {disfmarker} I think we can do it if{vocalsound} uh we use conventional batteries and not have solar cells or kinetic . Um and then maybe use single curved uh case . Because we might need it to be curved for the uh thumb to use the joyst joystickeasily . Um and then you'll need the advanced chip obviously for the L_C_D_ .Project Manager: Um I mean that sounds like quite a good requirement to me . Um conventional battery would seem to make sense .UserInterface: Mm-hmm .Project Manager: Um I'm not sure if there's any cost differences between single and double curved and I'm {disfmarker} I don't know about anybody else , but plastic or rubber as a traditional formof casing would seem to be a good way forward ? {gap} .User Interface: Mm . Um I'm actually gonna be bold and go oo go straight for rubber um for reasons I'll go into uh in more detail .Project Manager: Okay.Marketing: I also have a preference for rubber .Project Manager: Okay , well um {disfmarker}Marketing: Based on my research .Project Manager: Yeah , well will we move on to user interface , and {disfmarker}UserInterface: {gap} .Project Manager: yeah ? Um sorry ,User Interface: Mm .Project Manager: as long as {disfmarker} were you ? Yeah . Okay .Industrial Designer: Yep I'm finished .Project Manager: Um {gap} and d d dinterface concept .User Interface: Yep . Now I'm gonna have to work between the uh the slides and the uh {vocalsound} and the white boardProject Manager: Yeah .User Interface: 'cause I actually I have some fairlyconcrete things this time . Uh um I was given a an H_T_M_L_ file giving um various ideas from uh from other previous remote control designs , and pretty much decided to just dump them all . I wasn't very impressedby them and they didn't seem to re uh nothing I saw seemed to meet the sorts of design specifications that we're going for today . Um so what I ra rather than looking at other remotes , uh ra oomp be better to simplylook at the human hand . Um and try and f um and try and figure out a way of laying out the elements we've already decided on , um so that if r a if {vocalsound} so that the finger is e each finger or thumb is whereverit needs to be already . Um so uh next slide , if you please . Um and what we've basically decided on was the the um the joy uh the joystick , two function buttons and the L_C_D_ , just keep it paired down to theabsolute minimum . I don't actually think we need the um the numeric keypad because if you m because one of the menus that we could have available um {vocalsound} v via via the L_C_D_ is one where you scrollthrough channels , so if there's something f {vocalsound} and be bear in mind since this isn't meant to work for umMarketing: {gap} digital .User Interface: f f f {vocalsound} for di for digital or um or for {vocalsound}or for cable , whatever ,Industrial Designer: Ah , okay .User Interface: you're basically looking at four or five terrestrial channels , and then um your V_C_ uh and then the channel through your V_C_R_ and or D_V_D_player . And or um {gap} box . So it's not {vocalsound} I'm not really excessively concerned about that . You must have two two modes , basic mode , where um the joystick's uh left right {vocalsound} left right forchannels , up down for volume , um and the uh uh and the menu mode for uh further functions . Um now the reason I was particularly interested in using rubber for this is that if we're going to have a highly ergonomicdesign , um it needs to be ergonomic for left or right handed people . Um , so youProject Manager: Can I just jump in slightly there ?User Interface: Mm-hmm .Project Manager: That would suggest the double curveddesign's probably going to be most appropriate , then .User Interface: Yes , absolutely .Project Manager: {gap} okay .User Interface: Um , basi {vocalsound} basically what I {vocalsound} basically what the{vocalsound} what {gap} be having um , I would say , the the whole thing articulated at two points , so that if you if you're handing it from a lef uh left or right handed user you can adjust it so that the um the L_C_{vocalsound} the L_C_D_ and the uh {disfmarker} {vocalsound} The joystick would be in the right place . And {vocalsound} also this is {gap} a rather nicer de uh design gimmick that the {vocalsound} the um youknow the whole thing you know {vocalsound} it should have sort of organic feel to itProject Manager: Mm .User Interface: that it should be , you know , soft to touch and can be moved around all nice . Um okayProjectManager: Okay .User Interface: on to {vocalsound} on to the next uh to the next slide .Project Manager: Um , yeah . Just to let you know we'll probably be quite tight for time as well ,User Interface: Okay .ProjectManager: because I think you've probably got a lot you'd like to say , I guess .User Interface: Yeah , 'kay basically um {vocalsound} {disfmarker} I can add pretty pictures to this . The um {disfmarker} Assuming thehand {vocalsound} the hand to be in about sort of this position , um {gap} hol uh holding the remote , the um the joystick unit should rest over the uh the joint of the f of the uh four finger so that it's directly accessiblefor the thumb . Um and it would need t there would need to be a {disfmarker} it would need to be articulated just below that so that it could be switched around for uh left or right handed users . So . You then have agrip section that can be more or less the same irrespective of handedness . You just have big {vocalsound} two big buttons that cover most of the area so it can {vocalsound} in the upper part , one for the four finger ,one for the middle finger . Um , and that {disfmarker}Marketing: Is this the joystick ?User Interface: Th {vocalsound} this part here is the joystick . This would be the actual grip . Probably where you'd want to havethe battery as well .Marketing: Okay .User Interface: That would be probably the bulkiest part . And you then have , at the uh at the bottom , the L_C_D_ , and this would need to be articulated as well . And basicallyI'd want this to rest here , right at the base of the wrist . So it would fit just nicely in the hand . And again , this part could be rotated , so it can {disfmarker} {vocalsound} So {vocalsound} so so that it can be adjustedto either left or right handed user . Um {disfmarker} So the t uh the top function button in basic mode would be the on off switch and menu mode would be the enter button . And then the bottom function buttonsswitches between between modes . Um now programming it {vocalsound} actually thi this is one thing I've found with um the replacement remote control . Programming them can be a right pain . So I thought th thesimplest way around that would be to have um a cable to connect it to the computer some {vocalsound} some fair iv {gap} fairly fairly simple software on the computer just so that you {disfmarker} on your {gap}computer just so that you could um pr {vocalsound} program it at a rather {vocalsound} in a rather more comfortable interface . And you could download programs for it from uh for uh T_V_s from all sort of mainmanufacturers . Um though you {disfmarker} i it would be necessary to have uh have a m uh have a {vocalsound} ha have a mode for programming it without the computer , uh just in case there are there are stillpeople left out there who don't have them yet . Um . But uh . Yeah .Marketing: Mm .User Interface: That's that's my idea .Project Manager: Okay . {vocalsound} Excellent , right . Um {vocalsound} uh .Marketing: Mm .'Kay .Project Manager: File open .Marketing: {vocalsound} We go .Project Manager: Trend watching .Marketing: {vocalsound} Okay . {vocalsound} So uh to gather my research , two basic methods . We compared uhwhether people want the remote control to do a lot of stuff or they want it to look cool . And then we we research uh fashion trends in Europe , what's what's the new black ,Project Manager: {vocalsound} Okay.Marketing: you know , as it goes . {vocalsound} Next slide please . Uh we found , in order of importance , people want the remote control to look cool more than they want it to to be cool . As in they want it to do a lotof good s they want it to look like it does a lot , and if it does do a lot that's a bonus , but they don't care so much , you know . {vocalsound} They want it to be {disfmarker} that's sounds a bit like a contradiction .Technology technical {disfmarker} technologically innovative . People want it to be that , but s still they care more about the way it looks than what it does . So like the interface is really important . {vocalsound} Andeasy to use , it it just so happens that uh from the second point to the third point is twice as important {disfmarker} I mean the second point is twice as important as the third point . People want it {disfmarker} I is ithas to be cooler than easy to use , you know , if it has the newest features , even if it's difficult to use , {gap} prefer it to have the newest features . And if it's easy to use that's a bonus . {vocalsound} The fashion ,now this is seems a bit odd to me , but fruit and veg is the new is the new black for furniture , for clothes , for shoes . How that relates to a remote control I don't know .Project Manager: {vocalsound}Marketing: But I Isee {vocalsound} I come on to that in the next in the next slide . Spongy . I've als I've been saying everything's the new black . Well spongy's the new black as well . So we have the choice between rubber and plastic .If it's the type of rubber that you can squeeze , you know , it's spongy , then {disfmarker} can I skip the rest ?Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Oh yeah , I forgot to mention that . The uh rubber material is the type ofstress ball material , not just normal rubber .Marketing: Okay . Okay , soIndustrial Designer: {vocalsound} Forgot to say that .Marketing: kinda spongy material .Project Manager: Okay .Marketing: So um so mypersonal opinion ? {vocalsound} Um we want something fancy and techni technologically innovative , obviously . But what we what we need is something that looks like it's from the future that looks cool , that's that'sdifferent , you know , that's {disfmarker} everyone has a white remote control , black remote control , you need something cool . Like , titanium is cool but it's expensive . And maybe it's a bit of overkill for a remotecontrol . Um now the fruit and veg options , either we we go in that direction or we stay totally away from it . Um {vocalsound} I mean the research did come up with fruit and veg , so maybe it is important for{disfmarker} it's the up to the interface guy . So if we stay away from it , s you know stay away from it , but if we're gonna go along with it then it doesn't necessarily have to be like an apple or something like that , ora kiwi fruit . It could be something like , I say potato peeler but I'm sure you guys have a have a much cooler idea than I do . So I think cool is the key . {vocalsound} Few questions about a spongy remote control . I'venever seen one before . I've seen plastic remote controls . I think maybe they were {disfmarker} I don't know , back in the day when they first came up with remote controls , they had a reason for it beingProjectManager: Mm-hmm .Marketing: sturdy , you know . For being strong and sturdy . So um if we want something strong and sturdy , I say stay with plastic or titanium , but if we go with spongy , we can stress that youcan drop this as many times as you want , it doesn't matter , it's spongy material , it's not gonna break , you know . I just don't know how the L_E_D_ and the lights are gonna fit into a spongy material because it's notgonna be completely squeezable . So how do things fit it ? And if we are gonna use spongy , we can say it's long lasting , you know it's damage resistant and stuff like that , so . So just to summarise , people want stuffthat's cool , that's that looks like it's cool , and if it is cool then that's a bonus {gap} doesn't have to be um people like fruit and veg . We can either go down that alley or stay totally away from it . People like spongy


PhD E: OK .Professor B: OK , so {pause} We {disfmarker} we had a meeting with , uh {disfmarker} with Hynek , um , in {disfmarker} in which , uh , uh , Sunil and Stephane , uh {vocalsound} summarized where theywere and {disfmarker} and , uh , talked about where we were gonna go . So that {disfmarker} that happened sort of mid - week . Uh .PhD E: D did {disfmarker} did you guys get your code pushed together ?PhD D:Oh , yeah . Yeah . It 's {disfmarker} it 's {disfmarker} it 's {disfmarker} it was updated yesterday ,PhD E: Cool .PhD D: right ?PhD A: Yeah .PhD D: Yeah .PhD A: You probably received the mail .PhD E: Oh , right , Isaw {disfmarker} I saw the note .PhD A: Yeah .PhD E: Mm - hmm .Professor B: What was the update ?PhD A: What was the update ? So there is th then {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} all the new features that go in.Professor B: Yeah .PhD A: The , um , noise suppression , the re - synthesis of speech after suppression . These are the {disfmarker}PhD E: Is the , um {disfmarker} the CVS mechanism working {pause} well ?PhD A:Yeah .PhD E: Are {disfmarker} are people , uh , up at OGI grabbing code uh , via that ?PhD D: Uh , I don't think {disfmarker} I don't think {disfmarker}PhD E: Or {disfmarker} ?PhD A: I don't know if they use it , but.PhD D: Yeah , I I don't think anybody up there is like {pause} working on it right now .PhD E: Uh - huh . Mmm .Professor B: I think it more likely that what it means is that when Sunil is up there {vocalsound} he willgrab it .PhD D: Yeah . Yeah . So right now nobody 's working on Aurora there .PhD E: Yeah .Professor B: They 're {disfmarker} Yeah . They 're working on a different task .PhD E: I see . I see .PhD D: Yeah .PhD E: OK.Professor B: But what 'll happen is {disfmarker} is he 'll go back up there and , uh , Pratibha will come back from {disfmarker} from , uh , the east coast . Uh .PhD E: Mm - hmm .Professor B: And , uh {disfmarker}and {disfmarker} and I guess actually , uh , after Eurospeech for a little bit , uh , he 'll go up there too . So , actually everybody {vocalsound} who 's working on it {comment} will be up there for at least a little while .So they 'll remotely access it {vocalsound} from there .PhD E: So has {disfmarker} Has anybody tried remotely accessing the CVS using , uh , uh , SSH ?Professor B: Yeah . PhD A: Um , I don't know if Hari did that or{disfmarker} You dPhD D: I {comment} can actually do it today . I mean , I can just log into {disfmarker}PhD E: Have you tried it yet ?PhD D: No , I didn't . So I I 'll try it today .PhD E: OK .Professor B: Good idea.PhD A: Actually I {disfmarker} I tried wh while {disfmarker} when I installed the {pause} repository , I tried from Belgium .Professor B: Yeah .PhD D: Yeah .PhD A: I logged in there and I tried {pause} to import{disfmarker}PhD E: Yeah ? It worked good ?PhD A: Yeah , it works .PhD E: Oh , good !PhD A: But it 's {disfmarker} So , right now it 's the mechanism with SSH .PhD D: Oh .PhD E: Great !PhD A: I don't {pause} s Ididn't set up {disfmarker} You can also set up a CVS server {pause} on a new port . It 's like well {pause} uh , a main server , or d You can do a CVS server .PhD E: Yeah . Right . Then that 's using the CVS passwordmechanism and all that ,PhD A: But . Yeah , right .PhD E: right ?PhD A: But I didn't do that because I was not sure about {pause} security problems . I {disfmarker} I would have to {disfmarker}PhD E: So w when youcame in from Belgian {disfmarker} {comment} Belgium , using SSH , uh , was it asking you for your own {pause} password into ICSI ? So if yo you can only do that if you have an account at ICSI ?PhD A: Right . Yeah.PhD E: OK .PhD A: Yeah .PhD E: Cuz there is an {disfmarker} a way to set up anonymous CVS right ?PhD A: Yeah , you ha in this way you ca you have to set up a CVS server but then , yeah , you can access it .PhD E:So that {disfmarker} Oh , OK .PhD A: you {disfmarker} you can set up priorities .PhD E: So the anonymous mechanism {disfmarker}PhD A: You can access them and mostly if you {disfmarker} if y the set the server isset up like this .PhD E: OK . Because a lot of the open source stuff works with anonymous CVS and I 'm just wondering {disfmarker} Uh , I mean , for our transcripts we may want to do that .PhD A: Mm - hmm.Professor B: Yeah .PhD E: Uh .Professor B: Yeah , for this stuff I don't think we 're {pause} quite up to that . I mean , we 're still so much in development .PhD E: Mm - hmm . Yeah ,Professor B: We want to have justthe insiders .PhD E: yeah , yeah . Oh , I wasn't suggesting for this . I 'm {pause} thinking of the Meeting Recorder {comment} stuffProfessor B: Yeah .PhD E: but . Yeah . OK . Cool .Professor B: Yeah . So , uh{disfmarker}PhD E: What 's new ?Professor B: Well , I mean , I think maybe the thing to me might be {disfmarker} I me I 'm sure you 've just been working on {disfmarker} on , uh , details of that since the meeting ,right ? And so {disfmarker}PhD A: Mmm , since the meeting , well , I {disfmarker} I 've been {disfmarker} I 've been train training a new VAD and a new {pause} feature net .Professor B: That was {disfmarker} thatwas Tuesday . OK .PhD A: So they should be ready . Um .Professor B: But I guess maybe the thing {disfmarker} since you weren't {disfmarker} yo you guys weren't at that {disfmarker} that meeting , might be just{disfmarker} just to , um , sort of recap , uh , the {disfmarker} the conclusions of the meeting .PhD A: Mm - hmm .PhD E: Oh , great .Professor B: So .PhD E: You 're talking about the meeting with Hynek ?Professor B:Yeah . Cuz that was sort of , uh {disfmarker} we {disfmarker} we 'd sort of been working up to that , that {disfmarker} that , uh , he would come here this week and {disfmarker} and we would sort of{disfmarker}PhD E: Uh - huh .Professor B: Since he 's going out of town like now , and I 'm going out town in a couple weeks , uh , and time is marching , sort of , given all the mu many wonderful things we could beworking on , what {disfmarker} what will we actually focus on ?PhD E: Mm - hmm .Professor B: And , uh {disfmarker} and what do we freeze ? And , you know , what do we {disfmarker} ? So , um . I mean , this{pause} software that these guys created was certainly a {disfmarker} a key part . So then there 's something central and there aren't at least a bunch of different versions going off in {disfmarker} in ways that{pause} differ {pause} trivially . Uh , um , and , um ,PhD E: Yeah . That 's {disfmarker} that 's nice .Professor B: and then within that , I guess the idea was to freeze a certain set of options for now , to run it , uh , aparticular way , and decide on what things are gonna be experimented with , as opposed to just experimenting with everything . So keep a certain set of things constant . So , um . Uh , maybe describe roughly what{disfmarker} what we are keeping constant for now , or {disfmarker} ?PhD A: Yeah . Well . So we 've been working like six weeks on {disfmarker} on the noise compensation and we end up with something that seemsreasonable . Um .PhD E: Are you gonna use {disfmarker} which of the two techniques ?PhD A: So finally it 's {disfmarker} it 's , um , Wiener filtering on FFT bins . And it uses , uh , two steps , smoothing of the transferfunction , the first step , that 's along time , which use recursion . And {vocalsound} after this step there is a further smoothing along frequency , which use a sliding window of twenty FFT bins . Mmm . And , uh{disfmarker}PhD E: So this is on the {disfmarker} uh , before any mel scaling has been done ?PhD A: Yeah , yeah .PhD E: This is {disfmarker}PhD A: It was {disfmarker}Professor B: This {disfmarker} this smoothingis done on the estimate , um , of what you 're going to subtract ? Or on the thing that has already had something subtracted ?PhD A: Yeah . Uh , {vocalsound} it 's on the transfer function . So {disfmarker}Professor B:Oh , it 's on the transfer function for the Wiener filter .PhD A: Yeah .Professor B: Yeah , OK .PhD A: Yeah , so basically we tried {vocalsound} different configuration within this idea . We tried u u applying this on melbands , having spectral subtraction instead of wiener filtering . Um . Well , finally we end up with {pause} this configuration that works , uh , quite well . So we are going to fix this for the moment and work on the otheraspects of {vocalsound} the whole system .PhD E: Mm - hmm .PhD A: So {disfmarker}Professor B: Actually , let me int eh , Dave isn't here to talk about it , but let me just interject . This module , in principle , i I mean, you would know whether it 's {vocalsound} true in fact , is somewhat independent from the rest of it . I mean , because you {disfmarker} you re - synthesize speech , right ?PhD A: Mm - hmm .Professor B: So , um .Uh , well you don't {disfmarker} I guess you don't re - synthesize speech , but you could {disfmarker}PhD A: We {disfmarker} we do not foProfessor B: Uh , but you could .PhD A: Well {disfmarker} well , we do , butwe don't {disfmarker} don't re - synthesize . In {disfmarker} in the program we don't re - synthesize and then re - analyze once again . We just use the clean FFT bins .Professor B: But you have a re - synthesizedthing that you {disfmarker} that 's an {disfmarker} an option here .PhD A: This is an option that {disfmarker} then you can {disfmarker} Yeah .Professor B: Yeah , I gu I guess my point is that , um , i in some of thework he 's doing in reverberation , one of the things that we 're finding is that , uh , it 's {disfmarker} it 's {disfmarker} for the {disfmarker} for an artificial situation , we can just deal with the reverberation and histechniques work really well . But for the real situation uh , problem is , is that you don't just have reverberation , you have reverberation in noise . And if you don't include that in the model , it doesn't work very well .So in fact it might be a very nice thing to do , to just take the noise removal part of it and put that in front of what he 's looking at . And , uh , generate new files or whatever , and {disfmarker} and , uh , uh{disfmarker} and then do the reverberation part .PhD A: Mm - hmm .Professor B: So it 's {disfmarker}PhD D: Mmm .Professor B: Anyway .PhD E: So Dave hasn't {pause} tried that yet ?Professor B: No , no . He 's{disfmarker} I mean , ePhD E: I guess he 's busy with {disfmarker}Professor B: Yeah , prelims , right .Grad C: Pre - prelim hell .Professor B: Yeah .PhD E: Yeah .Professor B: So .PhD E: Yeah .Professor B: Uh , but{disfmarker} but , you know , that 'll {disfmarker} uh , it 's clear that we , uh {disfmarker} we are not {disfmarker} with the real case that we 're looking at , we can't just look at reverberation in isolation because theinteraction between that and noise is {disfmarker} is considerable . And that 's I mean , in the past we 've looked at , uh , and this is hard enough , the interaction between channel effects and {disfmarker} and , uh{disfmarker} and additive noise , uh , so convolutional effects and {disfmarker} and additive effects . And that 's hard enough . I mean , I don't think we really {disfmarker} I mean , we 're trying to deal with that . In asense that 's what we 're trying to deal with in this Aurora task . And we have , uh , the , uh , uh , LDA stuff that in principle is doing something about convolutional effects . And we have the noise suppression that 'sdoing something about noise . Uh , even that 's hard enough . And {disfmarker} and the on - line normalization as well , in that s category . i i There 's all these interactions between these two and that 's part of whythese guys had to work so hard on {disfmarker} on juggling everything around . But now when you throw in the reverberation , it 's even worse , because not only do you have these effects , but you also have somelong time effects . And , um , so Dave has something which , uh , is doing some nice things under some conditions with {disfmarker} with long time effects but when it 's {disfmarker} when there 's noise there too , it 's{disfmarker} it 's {disfmarker} it 's pretty hard . So we have to start {disfmarker} Since any {disfmarker} almost any real situation is gonna have {disfmarker} uh , where you have the microphone distant , is going tohave both things , we {disfmarker} we actually have to think about both at the same time .PhD E: Hmm .Professor B: So , um {disfmarker} So there 's this noise suppression thing , which is sort of worked out and then, uh , maybe you should just continue telling what {disfmarker} what else is in the {disfmarker} the form we have .PhD A: Yeah , well , {vocalsound} the , um , the other parts of the system are the {disfmarker} theblocks that were already present before and that we did not modify a lot .Professor B: So that 's {disfmarker} again , that {disfmarker} that 's the Wiener filtering , followed by , uh {disfmarker} uh , that 's done at theFFT level . Then {disfmarker}PhD A: Yeah , th then the mel filter bank ,Professor B: Mm - hmm .PhD A: then the log operation ,Professor B: Mm - hmm .PhD A: Mmm .Professor B: The {disfmarker} the {disfmarker}the filtering is done in the frequency domain ?PhD A: Yeah .Professor B: Yeah , OK . And then the mel and then the log , and then thePhD A: Then the LDA filter ,Professor B: LDA filter .PhD A: mmm , then thedownsampling ,Professor B: And then uh downsample ,PhD A: DCT ,Professor B: DCT ,PhD A: then , um , on - line normalization ,Professor B: on - line norm ,PhD A: followed by {pause} upsampling . Then finally , wecompute delta and we put the neural network also .Professor B: Right , and then in parallel with {disfmarker} an {disfmarker} a neural net . And then following neural net , some {disfmarker} probably someorthogonalization .PhD A: Yeah .Professor B: Uh {disfmarker} Um .PhD A: And finally frame dropping , which um , {vocalsound} would be a neural network also , used for estimated silence probabilities . And the inputof this neural network would be somewhere between log {pause} mel bands or one of the earlier stages of the processing .Professor B: Mm - hmm . So that 's sort of {disfmarker} most of this stuff is {disfmarker} yeah, is operating parallel with this other stuff .PhD A: Mm - hmm .Professor B: Yeah . So the things that we , um , uh , I guess we sort of {disfmarker} uh , There 's {disfmarker} there 's some , uh , neat ideas for{vocalsound} V A So , I mean , in {disfmarker} I think there 's sort of like {disfmarker} There 's a bunch of tuning things to improve stuff . There 's questions about {pause} various places where there 's an exponent ,if it 's the right exponent , or {pause} ways that we 're estimating noise , that we can improve estimating noise . And there 's gonna be a host of those . But structurally it seemed like the things {disfmarker} the mainthings that {disfmarker} that we brought up that , uh , are {disfmarker} are gonna need to get worked on seriously are , uh , uh , a {disfmarker} {vocalsound} a significantly better VAD , uh , putting the neural net on, um , which , you know , we haven't been doing anything with , the , uh , neural net at the end there , and , uh , the , uh , {vocalsound} opening up the second front . Uh .PhD E: The other half of the channel?Professor B: Yeah , yeah , I mean , cuz we {disfmarker} we have {disfmarker} we have , uh , uh , half the {disfmarker} the , uh , data rate that they allow .PhD E: That what you mean ?Professor B: And , uh , so theinitial thing which came from , uh , the meeting that we had down south was , uh , that , um , we 'll initially just put in a mel spectrum as the second one . It 's , you know , {pause} cheap , easy . Uh . There 's aquestion about exactly how we do it . We probably will go to something better later , but the initial thing is that cepstra and spectra behave differently ,PhD E: Mm - hmm .Professor B: so . Um , {comment} I think TonyRobinson used to do {disfmarker} I was saying this before . I think he used to do mel , uh , spectra and mel cepstra . He used them as alternate features . Put them together .PhD E: Hmm .Professor B: Uh .PhD E: So ifyou took the system the way it is now , the way it 's fro you 're gonna freeze it , and it ran it on the last evaluation , where it would it be ?PhD A: Mm - hmm . It , uh ,PhD E: In terms of ranking ?PhD A: Ri - right now it's second .PhD D: Second . PhD A: Um .PhD E: Mm - hmm .Professor B: Although you {disfmarker} you know , you haven't tested it actually on the German and Danish , have you ?PhD A: No , we didn't . No , um.Professor B: Yeah .PhD E: So on the ones that you did test it on it would have been second ?Professor B: Yeah . Would it {disfmarker} I mean {disfmarker} But {disfmarker} When you 're saying second , you 'recomparing to the numbers that the , uh {disfmarker} that the best system before got on , uh {disfmarker} also without German and Danish ?PhD A: Yeah , yeah .Professor B: Yeah , OK .PhD D: And th the rankingactually didn't change after the German and Danish . So , yeah .Professor B: Well ranking didn't before , but I 'm just asking where this is to where theirs was without the German and Danish ,PhD A: Yeah .PhD D: Yeah.PhD A: Mmm .PhD D: Yeah .Professor B: right ?PhD D: Yeah , yeah .Professor B: So .PhD E: Where {disfmarker} where {disfmarker} where were we actually on the last test ?Professor B: Oh , we were also espessentially second , although there were {disfmarker} there were {disfmarker} I mean , we had a couple systems and they had a couple systems . And so , I guess by that {pause} we were third , but I mean , therewere two systems that were pretty close , that came from the same place .PhD E: Uh - huh . I see . OK .Professor B: Uh , so institutionally we were {disfmarker} {vocalsound} we were second , with , uh , the third{disfmarker} third system .PhD E: We 're {disfmarker} so this second that you 're saying now is system - wide second ?Professor B: See {disfmarker} Uh , no I think it 's also institutional , isn't it ?PhD E: Stillinstitutionally second ?Professor B: Right ? I mean , I think both of their systems probably {disfmarker}PhD A: Uh , we are between their two systems . SoProfessor B: Oh , are we ?PhD A: I {disfmarker} It is a triumph.PhD D: Yeah .Professor B: Is it ?PhD D: Their {disfmarker} their first system is fifty - four point something . And , uh , we are fifty - three point something .PhD A: But everything is {pause} within the range of one{disfmarker} one percent .PhD D: And their second system is also fifty - three point something . Yeah , one percent .Professor B: Yeah , so {disfmarker} so basically they 're all {disfmarker} they 're all pretty close.PhD E: Oh , wow !PhD A: So .PhD E: That 's very close .PhD D: Yeah .PhD E: Yeah .Professor B: And {disfmarker} and , {vocalsound} um , you know , in some sense we 're all doing fairly similar things . Uh , I mean ,one could argue about the LDA and so forth but I {disfmarker} I think , you know , in a lot of ways we 're doing very similar things . But what {disfmarker} what {disfmarker}PhD E: So how did they fill up this{disfmarker} all these {disfmarker} these bits ? I mean , if we 're uProfessor B: Um , why are we using half ? Well , so you could {disfmarker} you cPhD E: Yeah . Or how are they using more than half , I guess maybeis what I {disfmarker}Professor B: Yeah , so I {disfmarker} I think {disfmarker} uh , you guys are closer to it than me , so correct me if I 'm wrong , but I {disfmarker} I think that what 's going on is that in{disfmarker} in both cases , some kind of normalization is done to deal with convola convolutional effects . Uh , they have some cepstral {pause} modification ,PhD A: Mm - hmm .Professor B: right ? In our case wehave a couple things . We have the on - line normalization and then we have the LDA RASTA . And {pause} they seem to comple complement each other enough and be different enough that they both seem to help{disfmarker} help us . But in any event , they 're both doing the same sort of thing . But there 's one difference . The LDA RASTA , uh , throws away high modulation frequencies . And they 're not doing that .PhD E: Soth So {disfmarker}Professor B: So that if you throw away high modulation frequencies , then you can downsample .Grad C: Get down .PhD E: I see . I see .Professor B: So {disfmarker}PhD E: So what if you didn't{disfmarker} So do you explicitly downsample then ? Do we explicitly downsample ?Professor B: Yeah .PhD A: Yeah .PhD E: And what if we didn't do that ? Would we get worse performance ?PhD A: Um {pause} Yeah ,not better , not worse .Professor B: I think it doesn't affect it , does it ?PhD E: I see . OK .Professor B: Yeah . So I think the thing is , since we 're not evidently throwing away useful information , let 's try to put in someuseful information .PhD E: Yeah . Yeah .Professor B: And , uh , so I {disfmarker} you know , we {disfmarker} we 've found in a lot of ways for quite a while that having a second stream uh , helps a lot . So that 's{disfmarker} that 's put in , and you know , it may even end up with mel spectrum even though I 'm saying I think we could do much better , just because it 's simple .PhD E: Mm - hmm .Professor B: Um . And you