Project Manager: Okay . Uh first of all I'll start with the costs ,Marketing: {gap} .Project Manager: because that's going to influence our design .User Interface: {vocalsound} Oh no .Marketing: Oh , {gap} .{vocalsound}Project Manager: If you {disfmarker} Don't know if you al already had a look or not ?User Interface: No n I I already did it .Industrial Designer: Did you do your questionnaire already ?Marketing: No .UserInterface: It's not much . It's just one question .Project Manager: Because we have a problem .Industrial Designer: Uh {disfmarker}Marketing: Oh . {vocalsound}Project Manager: If you look closely , you can see .UserInterface: Yeah .Industrial Designer: It wants {disfmarker}Project Manager: Um I already took the liberty to make some suggestions . {gap} . {gap} . {vocalsound} At the moment we have fifteen buttons , oneL_C_D_ screen , one advanced chip-on-print . We use a uh sensor , that's for the speech . Uh we use kinetic energy . And we wanted uh the buttons in a special colour . Okay . What's the first thing we should drop ?The special colour of the buttons ?User Interface: No that's that's for the trendy uh feel and look . So {disfmarker}Project Manager: Okay . Uh {disfmarker}Industrial Designer: Yeah but everything is .Project Manager:Should we switch to a hand dynamo ?User Interface: {vocalsound}Project Manager: Uh that's the still the same idea as the kinetic energy because you have to use it and do things .Marketing: No .User Interface: Yeah ,b but {disfmarker}Marketing: Yeah but young people like that .Project Manager: Batteries ?Marketing: So just do normal battery .Project Manager: Batteries .User Interface: I think the battery option .IndustrialDesigner: Just a normal battery then , yeah .Marketing: Yeah .Project Manager: {gap} .Marketing: It has to be twelve and a half .Project Manager: Yeah .Marketing: Or not ? {vocalsound}User Interface: Oh .{vocalsound}Project Manager: So {disfmarker}Industrial Designer: Oh my goodness .Project Manager: You're going to redesign something .Marketing: {vocalsound}User Interface: Oh no .Project Manager: Okay , sowe're at twenty five .Marketing: Uh , yeah . {vocalsound}Project Manager: {vocalsound} Um {disfmarker} Do we keep the shape doubly curved or g do we go for single curved ?Industrial Designer: Well I guess i we'llhave to go for single curve then . I mean we have to drop on everything .Project Manager: Mm-hmm . {vocalsound} Uh {disfmarker}Marketing: But we can keep it single curved with uh top view still curved , but fromthe side it's it's flat ,Industrial Designer: Yeah .Marketing: and the screen screen is just {disfmarker} Well you just have to hold it like this then . So {disfmarker}Project Manager: {vocalsound} Yeah . Um{disfmarker}Industrial Designer: How about {disfmarker} Sorry .Project Manager: Uh another option I saw was to drop the buttons one through nine , so you can't directly access a channel , but instead use only the upand down arrows . That would skip nine buttons and four and a half Euros .Industrial Designer: That's what I was thinking .User Interface: Yeah .Marketing: Alright .Project Manager: Yeah ?Industrial Designer: AaMarketing: Let's do it then . Yeah .Project Manager: Uh then we have left {disfmarker}User Interface: But we don't have any basic options any more .Marketing: {gap} we {disfmarker} {vocalsound}Project Manager:Uh yeah . We do .Industrial Designer: And uh 'cause then they don't have to n They don't need special colour as well .Marketing: F_ eight .Project Manager: They don't need special colours . Fine . That's more like it.Marketing: {vocalsound} Yeah .User Interface: {vocalsound}Project Manager: {vocalsound} You were saying something .Industrial Designer: That was exactly my point . Like let's drop all the buttons , and just makeoneProject Manager: Yeah .Industrial Designer: {disfmarker} I mean we're gonna use the L_C_D_ screen anyway . So we'll just have to use it for everything .Project Manager: Mm-hmm . Yeah .Industrial Designer: Andthen you can make an overview of channels in the screen , and select a channel , click {disfmarker}Project Manager: Yeah , some more menu options . Yeah . Okay so maybe we can drop few more buttons .IndustrialDesigner: {vocalsound}Project Manager: But um {disfmarker} Now let's look .User Interface: Yeah we c could {disfmarker} We only need the the the the the menu arrow arrow button uh thing . Everything you can dowith with the menu . So {disfmarker} With the display .Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}Project Manager: Mm-hmm .Industrial Designer: Yeah we need one integrated button for everything then .User Interface: Yeah.Marketing: The joystick .Project Manager: {vocalsound} Uh {disfmarker}Industrial Designer: Yeah . Kind of . I was {disfmarker} Because {disfmarker}Marketing: {vocalsound}Project Manager: Yeah , scroll-wheel ,push-button uh {disfmarker}Industrial Designer: Yeah . If you if you go to {disfmarker}Marketing: Integrated scroll-wheel push-button , yeah .Industrial Designer: If you go to our uh view , like you {disfmarker} if youare in the sound system there , uh and you wanna adjust the treble for instance ,Project Manager: Yeah . Yeah .Industrial Designer: this is just uh an example ,Project Manager: Mm-hmm .Industrial Designer: y y youwanna see a bar on which you can adjust it from zero to ten for example .Project Manager: Mm-hmm . Mm-hmm .Industrial Designer: But you want a sound preview of how it's gonna sound ,Project Manager: Yeah.Industrial Designer: right ? So you wanna click on it , activate it , whe and when you move it , hear the difference of the treble coming out or going into the sound .Project Manager: Yeah .Industrial Designer: So you'llyou'll need a a kind of a joystick uh button .Marketing: Yeah or or the integrated scroll-wheel push-button .Industrial Designer: Yeah .Marketing: So that's kind of on your mouse and then you can click it , adjust it , clickagain and then you're out of it .Industrial Designer: Exactly .Marketing: But you still {disfmarker} But you then still need to have {disfmarker} Well you can use the scroll-wheel as well for um maybe for the channels .But you still um {disfmarker}Industrial Designer: Yeah it's r Yeah .Marketing: You still have to have some some button in the menu to go back .User Interface: So you do one inte You can do one integrated scroll-wheelpush-button .Marketing: Yeah .User Interface: And then just drop all the other buttons .Project Manager: Uh yeah .Marketing: Well not all .User Interface: But but th the cost of one integrated button is far more than afew extra push-buttons .Marketing: Not s not sound I guess .Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} No .Project Manager: Yeah . It's uh {disfmarker} One integrated button is five times the cost of a normal button.Marketing: {vocalsound}User Interface: Yeah .Marketing: Mm .Project Manager: So {disfmarker}User Interface: So we have to to make it s uh more uh {disfmarker} It has to be {disfmarker}Project Manager: Youcould also drop j three more of these , without losing much functionality . You just drop the Okay and the Back .Marketing: Yeah . Wh wh what what what is the what is the uh sample sensor sample speaker ?ProjectManager: Oh , that's for the speech .Marketing: Speech recognition .Project Manager: Yeah .User Interface: Could drop the speech recognition . {vocalsound}Marketing: Right .Project Manager: S s Drop speechrecognition ?Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} No but {disfmarker}Project Manager: Yeah that's possible . {vocalsound}User Interface: We we dIndustrial Designer: Yeah it's it's expensive , but uh we never consideredthe possibilities of uh speech recognition . 'Cause it can take the function of a lot of uh uh buttons .Project Manager: Buttons .Marketing: Buttons .Project Manager: That's not very easy to use .User Interface: Yeah.Industrial Designer: IMarketing: No , it can be disturbed by by noise andIndustrial Designer: No .Project Manager: {vocalsound}Industrial Designer: Yeah but lets just say that the speech recognition works .Marketing:stuff like that . Let let let me see what's more what's more popular . I guess the the screen was more popular than um than the speech recognition .User Interface: Yeah .Marketing: I have to look on that . Let me see .{vocalsound} Uh well no I was wrong .Project Manager: {vocalsound}Marketing: There are more people who like speech recognition than an L_C_D_ screen .Project Manager: Yep . Okay . Because if you d lose theL_C_D_ screen , we {vocalsound} need a lot of {disfmarker}Marketing: But if it {disfmarker} {vocalsound} But it it {disfmarker} it's a it's a both a hypersUser Interface: We lose our whole concept .Project Manager:Yeah .User Interface: Uh so {disfmarker} No we just {disfmarker}Project Manager: We need a lot of extra buttons .Marketing: No , but {disfmarker}User Interface: We keep the L_C_D_ .Marketing: Well we Yeah wekeep the screen . I mean it's it's about the same . Eight one to ninety one percent , uh sixty six to seventy six .Project Manager: OkayIndustrial Designer: We uh we we haven't really integrated this {disfmarker} thespeech into the system ,Project Manager: so we drop the speech .Industrial Designer: so we can might as well s drop that . {gap}Project Manager: And drop it yeah ?User Interface: Yeah .Marketing: Yeah . Let's dropthe speech .Project Manager: Okay . S Fo Four less Euros . So we still have three and a half Euro to lose .User Interface: {vocalsound}Marketing: Sixteen Euros .Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} We need to lose somebuttons .Marketing: But y yProject Manager: Yeah if you lose the the Back , the Okay button {disfmarker} Uh v let's say we only have the four arrows , and the Menu button .Marketing: Yeah . Yeah .Project Manager:Then you're {disfmarker}Marketing: And then and then use um {disfmarker}Project Manager: {vocalsound} Oh and the power button we have also .Marketing: The the {disfmarker} Okay . And the menu button doesalso does the okay function then .Project Manager: Yeah .Marketing: And then when you in the menu {disfmarker}Project Manager: So that's one Euro .Marketing: S so so you activate the menu .User Interface: If wedo uh two integrated scroll-wheel push-buttons , we can drop all the the push-buttons .Project Manager: {vocalsound} Yeah . Yeah ? And {gap} {disfmarker}User Interface: With with one uh integrated button we canuh do the whole menu thing . With the other , we can do the the channel , the volume , et cetera .Marketing: Yeah yeah . {vocalsound} Yeah . {gap} .Project Manager: That would save zero point two Euros comparedto {disfmarker} No .User Interface: No it's three Euros . No ? Um {disfmarker}Project Manager: Yeah . To This together is more expensive than {disfmarker} Oof , it's almost the same as t keeping this .User Interface:No it's it's n Yeah . Yeah yeah yeah . {vocalsound}Project Manager: And we can drop these two .Marketing: Well okay .User Interface: It's the {disfmarker}Marketing: For example if you have f f four buttons ,{vocalsound} channel up and down , uh volume left right {disfmarker}Project Manager: Volume .Marketing: Okay , I've {disfmarker} I think we have to keep that .Project Manager: And the power button .Marketing:And then {disfmarker} and the power button . So that's five .Project Manager: That's the basic .Marketing: That's basic . That that's what you need anyway . And then for the menu , um you can have a button thatactivates menu . Or d or do we just integrate an an an scroll-wheel with a push-button . And then if the moment you use the scroll-wheel , the the the menu gets activated , and then you can scroll , choose an option ,click on it , it goes into an feature . Click on it again , selects features , scroll , adjust it . Click again , it's okay . Then you only need one button to move back . Or or under each option , you set a {disfmarker} you setan a screen thing what says back , and you select that one , click again , and you go one step back . And in that menu , scroll , click , one step back .User Interface: {vocalsound}Marketing: So that then you need fivebuttons , and one integrated scroll-wheel push-button .Project Manager: Yep . Okay th that's {disfmarker}Marketing: But we can't drop three buttons .Industrial Designer: Which {gap} {disfmarker} That's even{disfmarker}Marketing: But I see that's {disfmarker}Project Manager: Yeah that's one Euro more expensive .Marketing: Yeah .Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}Marketing: So {gap} {disfmarker} {vocalsound} that'snot a good idea .Project Manager: That's not an option .Marketing: Because which buttons do we have now ? Those five which I mentioned , and then menu , and then {disfmarker}Project Manager: Menu , power.Marketing: Yeah . F of the four things ?Project Manager: Four arrows ?Marketing: Yeah , th power .Project Manager: Power . Uh {disfmarker}Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Yeah , if you if you go to eight{disfmarker}Marketing: {vocalsound} Which more ?Industrial Designer: I don't know how to {disfmarker}Project Manager: Yeah . Okay . So four arrows ?Marketing: Yeah .Project Manager: Uh power I believe?Marketing: Power . Th Yeah that's five .Project Manager: {vocalsound} Uh {disfmarker} We have a Back and a Okay button .Marketing: Yeah , okay that's seven ,Project Manager: And the Menu .Marketing: and one toactivate the menu , yeah . So okay that's eight . Well we can't reduce that . We we keep the display .Project Manager: Yeah , and even if we drop three buttons from here , we still have to make some adjustmentsaround here . So {disfmarker}Marketing: Oh , well okay . Yeah .Project Manager: {vocalsound}Industrial Designer: Yeah , we need the chip for the for the L_C_ display .Marketing: {vocalsound}Project Manager: TheL_C_D_ ? Yeah .User Interface: Let's make the {disfmarker} Let's make the case plastic .Marketing: Yeah well we need the advanced {disfmarker}Project Manager: Then I rather make it wood .Marketing: Instead ofrProject Manager: Because then also it's good in the market with the forty five plus uh people .User Interface: Yeah .Industrial Designer: Yeah . True .Marketing: Yeah but but that's not our market .User Interface: But{disfmarker}Project Manager: No that {disfmarker} maybe not . But maybe it's better than plastic anyway .Marketing: Ah no , hard plastic . {vocalsound}User Interface: Plastic with a with a special colour .IndustrialDesigner: {vocalsound} Oh .User Interface: A woo wood uh wood uh wood colour .Marketing: Yeah , plastic with special colour .Project Manager: Yeah ? {vocalsound}Marketing: {vocalsound} No but I I{disfmarker}Project Manager: Yeah okay uh {disfmarker}User Interface: {vocalsound} That's an option . {vocalsound}Marketing: Because we have to use the special colour anyway . You forgot that .User Interface:Yeah .Project Manager: Yep . Yeah , yeah .User Interface: So we do one one sMarketing: {vocalsound} So let's go for the plastic .User Interface: Yeah .Project Manager: Yeah , okay . Plastic .Marketing: And since it'snot kinetic , it doesn't have to flip around that much ?Project Manager: Uh that's easy because plastic is free . {vocalsound}Industrial Designer: Hmm .Project Manager: {vocalsound}User Interface: Hmm .Marketing:We still have problem of two Euros .Project Manager: Yeah , okay . Uh if we dropped uh {disfmarker}Marketing: {vocalsound}User Interface: No the buttons , those are really needed .Project Manager: Yeah ?UserInterface: Yeah th th it's it's uh {disfmarker}Marketing: Yeah we can't drop them .User Interface: An advanced chip-on-print . {vocalsound}Project Manager: {vocalsound} You still need that .Industrial Designer: Yeahuh {disfmarker}Marketing: {vocalsound} Do we really need that advanced chip for an L_C_D_ display ?Industrial Designer: You {disfmarker} uh uh {disfmarker} Yeah . So the other option would be to go for the thesample speaker , and {disfmarker} Which can use a regular chip , wh which is six Euros in total .Project Manager: {vocalsound} SIndustrial Designer: That doesn't matter .Marketing: Oh . I rather keep I rather keepthe display .Project Manager: No , I keep the re Yeah . Yeah . Because we already designed for it . So {disfmarker}Industrial Designer: Well yeah .Marketing: So the only option is an hand dynamo .Industrial Designer:Exactly .User Interface: {vocalsound} Oh that {disfmarker}Project Manager: Yeah and something else .Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Yeah but the {disfmarker}Marketing: Oh no tha Oh that's one Euro , right.Industrial Designer: uh can't we f uh fit all the buttons in an intreg integrated scroll push-button ? 'Cause that will save us one and a half Euro already . And then if wMarketing: And then integrated s Yeah but thatwould make it not so easy to use .Project Manager: No y you would recMarketing: I mean it's not that important , easy to use , but {disfmarker}Project Manager: Then you have {disfmarker}Industrial Designer: Ththen we have to scroll through a lot of menus to be able to get where you want , huh ?Project Manager: Then you still need two additional buttons I believe .Industrial Designer: And uh {disfmarker}Marketing: Yeah.Project Manager: For the volume .Industrial Designer: Yeah d at l Yeah . At least one for power .Project Manager: You can use those {disfmarker} Yeah .User Interface: But the {disfmarker}Project Manager: Oh yeahand power . That's three buttons and this would cost {disfmarker}Industrial Designer: Oh . Yeah it's just as expensive as what we have now .User Interface: But the integrated uh button ? How many func functions canit uh have ?Project Manager: Yeah . Three . Up , down , Okay .Industrial Designer: Yeah endlessly . I mean it can be a power button as soon as it powered on .User Interface: Okay .Industrial Designer: You can go intoyou in you main menu ,Marketing: You you press it for like three seconds .Industrial Designer: you can choose uh flip channel , uh you can choose sound options , any options .Marketing: Then then then you should doeverything in the menu . On the screen .Industrial Designer: Yeah .Project Manager: Yeah , okay . It would save enough {disfmarker}Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Maybe we should . 'Cause we don't have moneyand w we want the screen .Project Manager: Yeah you can choose this , drop these , then we have a half Euro left .Marketing: Yeah . {vocalsound}Project Manager: {vocalsound} So we can maybe still use powerbutton .Marketing: {vocalsound} Yeah , but we'd {disfmarker} {vocalsound} Alright .Project Manager: Yeah .Industrial Designer: I guess we have to .Marketing: It s it saves us four Euros and it costs us two and a half. So let's see , we we drop the price by one and a half .Project Manager: Yeah . You see ?Industrial Designer: We'll we'll be on {disfmarker}Marketing: But we still have thirteen left .Project Manager: Oh still{disfmarker} Yeah ? Oh then I miscalculated . Oh yeah .Marketing: Thirteen . So still half . {vocalsound}Project Manager: {vocalsound} Shit . Drop the special colour . {vocalsound}Marketing: There goes the special co{vocalsound}User Interface: {vocalsound} Oh no .Marketing: Well {disfmarker} {vocalsound} That would make it less appealing . So that's no option .Project Manager: {vocalsound} 'Kay . What else ? Uncurved ?UserInterface: No no , it has to be um curved .Marketing: We sure about the advanced chip we need for the display ?Project Manager: Yeah .Industrial Designer: Yeah it says right here .Project Manager: {vocalsound} Theymade it very easy for us . {vocalsound}User Interface: Okay .Marketing: Well yeah . {vocalsound} {gap} yeah . We made it hard for ourselves with the display , but it's a cool feature .Project Manager: Ah , I don'tthink I can s uh persuade the management to say , this is better for the market so you sell more than {disfmarker} {vocalsound}Marketing: {vocalsound}User Interface: Okay . Wh what we could do is um{disfmarker} drop the the special colour , and uh do the special colour for the buttons .Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Yeah .Project Manager: Buttons . That's {disfmarker} Oh yeah since we only have one button.User Interface: Yeah . {vocalsound}Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}Project Manager: {vocalsound}Marketing: Yeah but I mean what is meant by special colour ?Project Manager: I just m I don't {disfmarker} I think{disfmarker}User Interface: Just something else than than black or white I think .Project Manager: Uh yeah it's {disfmarker} I think it's grey , regular .Marketing: S yeah . Alright .Project Manager: Grey and rubber.Industrial Designer: But we definitely want the thing to be a special colour though .Project Manager: Of plastic .User Interface: Yeah .Marketing: Yeah .Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Damn .Marketing: So I ratherhave an hand dynamo {vocalsound} than than drop the colour .Project Manager: {vocalsound}User Interface: {vocalsound}Industrial Designer: Yeah and then {vocalsound} {disfmarker}Project Manager: Yeah


Project Manager: Okay . Oh , that's not gonna work . {vocalsound} Oh , alright . {vocalsound} Okay . Okay . Um alright .Marketing: Uh , uh , um .Project Manager: I'll just put that there . Uh as you all know we're hereto create a brand new fantastic remote . Uh I'm Nick Debusk , I'm the Project Manager . Uh we'll just get started with everyone kind of letting each other know who they are and what you're doing , what your what yourrole is um . Go ahead .Marketing: Okay . {vocalsound} I am Corinne Whiting and I will be the Marketing Expert and in each of the three phases I will have a different role . In the function design phase I will be talkingabout user requirement specification , and this means what needs and desires are to be fulfilled , and I'll be doing research to figure this out . In the conceptual design phase I will be dealing with trend watching and I'llbe doing marketing research on the web . And then finally in the um detailed design phase I will be doing product evaluation and so I will be collecting the requirements and ranking all the requirements to see how wedid .Project Manager: 'Kay .User Interface: Hiya , I'm Ryan . Um I'm the User Interface Designer . Um likewise I've three different roles for each stage of design . Um the functional design is looking at the tex technicalfunctions of a remote control . Um in the concept design , the user interface , how the user reacts with the the product . And the detailed design um {vocalsound} sort of like the user interface design , what they mightbe looking for , uh things like fashions , what makes wha how we're gonna make it special . That's about it .Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Right . {vocalsound} I'm Manuel and I'm the Industrial Designer in in thisproject um . In the functional design phase I'm {disfmarker} I'll be dealing mostly with the requirements , um we'll discuss what the prog what functions the the product has to fulfil and so and so on . Um I supposewe'll work pretty much together on that one . Um um in the conceptual design um I'll be pro mostly dealing with properties and materials um of our product .User Interface: Yeah .Industrial Designer: And uh thedetailed design {disfmarker} in the detailed design I'll be concerned with the look and feel of the product itself , um so we're pretty much working together obviously on the design front here . Okay .{vocalsound}Project Manager: Okay . Um so we've got our opening , our our agenda is the opening , uh acquaintance which we've kinda done . Uh tool training , project plan discussion and then closing .User Interface:{vocalsound}Marketing: {vocalsound}Project Manager: Uh grand total of twenty five minutes we have here . Um so we are putting together a new remote control . Um we want it to be something original . Um ofcourse we're a {disfmarker} not only a electronics company but a fashion um conscious electronics company , so we want it to be trendy um and we want it to be easy to use . {vocalsound} Um we've got the functionaldesign , conceptual design and detailed design um which basically is is the three of you um . And w uh {vocalsound} well um functional design um . Um do we have {disfmarker} um any ideas of of {disfmarker}{vocalsound} maybe d let's just throw out some ideas of what kind of remote control we want to have , and then we can go into how we're gonna design it and and how we're gonna do the detailing on it .UserInterface: Yeah . Well uh s function of remote control is just just {disfmarker} you know , change channels is its main function .Project Manager: So we want it to be um a T_V_ remote or {disfmarker} I I mean do wewant it to to do other things besides just be a a television remote ?User Interface: Oh right . I suppose you c try make it a universal remoteProject Manager: 'Kay .User Interface: for {disfmarker} could work on all sortof electrical products in in one person's house . But , you know , they all sorta have the same role changing channels , volumes and then programming .Marketing: Mm .Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}ProjectManager: Mm-hmm . 'Kay .Industrial Designer: Mm .User Interface: I think they all work on the same prin principle as well sorta like {disfmarker} I don't actually know . {gap} But is it just infra-red ? Is that standard?Project Manager: I I think {disfmarker} yeah , yeah , r universal remote .User Interface: Ye yeah .Project Manager: Um this is my first uh go-round with creating a remote control ,Marketing: Huh .{vocalsound}Project Manager: so {disfmarker}Marketing: {vocalsound} Ours too . {vocalsound}User Interface: {vocalsound}Project Manager: {vocalsound} I think we're all in the same boat here . {vocalsound} Um{disfmarker}User Interface: Um one thing I thought of with the remote control is you always lose 'em .Project Manager: Okay .User Interface: So if there's a g a way of finding it quite easily , I thought that'd be quitegood quite a good feature .Marketing: Mm . ChProject Manager: So we should we should set our remote control up to where it has a uhMarketing: Like a tracking device ? {vocalsound}Project Manager: like a trackingdevice or or like a a {disfmarker}User Interface: Oh you can get those key {disfmarker} well you could whistle or make a noiseProject Manager: It makes a noise ,User Interface: and it'd beep .Project Manager: there'sa button on the T_V_ that you pressIndustrial Designer: Mm , mm .Project Manager: and {disfmarker}User Interface: Yeah .Marketing: Mm .Industrial Designer: Right .Project Manager: 'Kay .Marketing: Be good.Industrial Designer: So {disfmarker}User Interface: Generally , all remotes are sort of quite similar in their appearance .Project Manager: Yeah . Do we want {disfmarker}User Interface: Just long .Project Manager: sothey're kinda like long and rectangular .User Interface: {vocalsound} Yeah .Project Manager: Do we want something crazy ?User Interface: Black usually .Project Manager: You know , we want something new that'sgonna stand out .User Interface: Yeah .Marketing: Lot more modern .Project Manager: A m a modern {disfmarker} so our remote should be {disfmarker}User Interface: I think so . Maybe sorta spherical or something .A ball .Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}Marketing: Maybe like user-friendly , like a littleUser Interface: Yeah .Marketing: you know , where you can use both hands , like a little keyboard type thing .User Interface:People {disfmarker}Industrial Designer: Mm .User Interface: I thought maybe , because people always tend to throw a remote control about the place to one another {disfmarker} if it was in a ball ,Project Manager:'Kay .User Interface: and maybe the actual controls are inside or something .Marketing: Mm .Project Manager: Um .Industrial Designer: Well there are of course certain restrictions , you can't have it be any form andfulfil all functions at the same time ,User Interface: Yeah .Industrial Designer: so there are always the {disfmarker} some restrictions we have to apply here . Um however um one question is how stable is that thingsupposed to be , that refers to the material , pretty much um . What are we gonna build that thing out of ?Marketing: Mm .Industrial Designer: How sturdy is it gonna be ? Do we want it to last longer or rather havepeople whatever , have to buy one every half a year ?Project Manager: {vocalsound} Okay so {disfmarker} yeah , so we want it to be sturdy ,User Interface: Yeah .Project Manager: we want it to to hold up tosomebody's child , you know , throwing it across the room or , as you said , people kinda throw it , so ball-shaped , uh you know , if it were ball-shaped maybe ,User Interface: Yeah .Project Manager: then it{disfmarker}User Interface: It could be cased on the outside and t everything could be inside .Project Manager: 'Kay . Um so we want it to be modern , fun , sturdy , um {disfmarker} So our form and our function . Umwe want it to be um easy to find . {vocalsound} Um {disfmarker} {vocalsound} What else {disfmarker} it {disfmarker} what else do we want it to to do ? So we want it to be universal . It's something that we'resupposed to sell for about twenty five Euros um and you know , goals for profits are I think somewhere around uh fifty million Euros , what they wanna make on it , so .Marketing: Mm . Also since we're partners of theInternational Remote Control Association , maybe we wanna make it something that would globally appeal .Project Manager: 'Kay .Marketing: That's more on the research end , but {disfmarker} the marketing .ProjectManager: So marketing , you know , how {disfmarker} maybe uh marketing , you could s find out what is the most universally um appealing {vocalsound} remote control out there .Marketing: {vocalsound} Yeah.Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}Marketing: And maybe as far as design goes , maybe we could have different ones for different target audiences ,Project Manager: 'Kay .Marketing: 'cause maybe one won't apply toall of the countries we're targeting .User Interface: Ye Small .Industrial Designer: Right .Project Manager: Um {disfmarker} {vocalsound} Do you guys have any ideas for what it should look like ? Maybe we could drawit up on the on the board over there . Some ideas ? We want it to be a b a ball ,User Interface: {gap} I'd {disfmarker} I could draw sorta the ball idea .Project Manager: you know , we'll draw up we'll draw up the balland maybe th um where the buttons are located .User Interface: My original idea was just simply sort of a sphere , where maybe you {disfmarker} this is where it's connected together , and then when you open it out ,it could fol it could be maybe flip , like a flip phone , and then when you fold it out the middle {disfmarker} Maybe a hinge that'll have to be the strongest part of it . If that {disfmarker} if we did use a hinge , or if it wasjust two parts ,Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}User Interface: and then you'd have just sorta you you you know , your buttons . Thing is inside I think , sometimes remotes have too many buttons , so maybe assimple as possible , um as few buttons inside as possible . Um , I dunno , what's the idea for . Just something {disfmarker} maybe if you ha if it had like if some kind of like light or something or lights around it . It'slooking a bit like something out of Star Wars at the moment though , to be fair .Marketing: {vocalsound}Project Manager: {vocalsound}User Interface: {vocalsound} But yeah .Marketing: Futuristic .{vocalsound}Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}User Interface: That was that was a sorta simple idea I hadProject Manager: Uh-huh .User Interface: and then you know you could {gap} about {disfmarker} Right , itwould almost be like a ball . So that was just just an idea I had . I don't know whether anybody else has other ideas ?Industrial Designer: Right . One problem you'd get with this design is um {disfmarker} the ball is anice idea because of it's stability really ,User Interface: Yeah .Industrial Designer: but of course , since it's a ball , it'll roll , so we'd have to have it flat on one side at least , down here somewhere ,User Interface: Yeah .Maybe f yeah .Industrial Designer: take away that part . That's one of the big issues . Also also you risk the hinges here . That's that's um a problem .User Interface: Yeah , that's g that's a good idea . Yeah . The idea{disfmarker} it didn't have to necessarily be f a hinge ,Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} That's that's {vocalsound} interesting of course ,User Interface: that was just one idea though .Industrial Designer: but that's ofcourse a weak point , yeah .User Interface: Yeah .Marketing: {vocalsound}Project Manager: How would we go about um making you know {disfmarker} getting rid of our weak points ? What {disfmarker} I mean wouldwe just have a flat spot on the bottom of the ball ?User Interface: {vocalsound}Marketing: {vocalsound}Project Manager: {vocalsound} Not to put you on the spot ,Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} E No no ,ProjectManager: but {disfmarker}Industrial Designer: uh uh {vocalsound} .Project Manager: What did you say your title was again ?Industrial Designer: N nMarketing: {vocalsound}Project Manager: You're the the IndustrialDesigner .Industrial Designer: Uh , I'm your Industrial Designer ,Marketing: {vocalsound}Industrial Designer: so i b well ,Project Manager: {vocalsound}Industrial Designer: the point is that {vocalsound} well maybe{disfmarker} I dunno . The shape is perhaps not the most ideal .Project Manager: Okay .Industrial Designer: As as stable as it is , there must be a compromise between um stability and design here , so .User Interface:Well I I suppose that things become {gap} design . But I mean iMarketing: Mm-hmm . {vocalsound}User Interface: I was trying to think of like the design of others . I can't think of anything other than a long rectanglefor remote ,Project Manager: {vocalsound} Yeah .User Interface: maybe small , sort of fatter ones , but there's nothing being done sort of out of left field , yeah .Project Manager: It's not new , it's not innovative , it's{disfmarker} you know , everybody does long remote because it's easy ,User Interface: Yeah .Project Manager: it's it's stable um .Marketing: 'Kay , I'll draw something . {vocalsound}Project Manager: So if{disfmarker} {vocalsound}Marketing: What ? {vocalsound}Project Manager: no , go ahead .Marketing: My idea was just to have it be kind of like a keyboard type shape , you know , like video gamesUser Interface:Yeah .Marketing: l so . But maybe {disfmarker} I mean that would be kinda big and bulky . We could also try to do the hinge thing , so it could like flip out that way . I don't know . {vocalsound} That's my idea .UserInterface: I think definitely doing something differentMarketing: Yeah .User Interface: is a good idea .Industrial Designer: Mm .User Interface: I mean maybe design something , that's sort of like {vocalsound} supposenot everybody's everybody's hand's the same , but something that would maybe fit in the hand easier .Project Manager: Something with a grip .Marketing: Mm . Yeah .User Interface: Yeah , with a grip .ProjectManager: {vocalsound} Yeah . Because even {disfmarker} I suppose even with the ballUser Interface: It still might be hard to {disfmarker}Project Manager: it's {disfmarker}User Interface: it still not the ho easiestthing to hold , yeah .Project Manager: it might not be the easiest to hold onto um .Industrial Designer: Mm .Project Manager: So perhaps the the joystick {disfmarker} the the keyboard idea might work better .UserInterface: Like {disfmarker} yeah .Project Manager: But then again , people like to use one hand to flip and one hand to hold their soda , so maybe maybe we {disfmarker}User Interface: Yeah .Marketing:{vocalsound} True .User Interface: It's d yeah . I think it's definitely got to be a a one-handed a one-handed job .Marketing: Mm .Project Manager: I feel like I'm just shooting everything down here .User Interface:{vocalsound}Marketing: {vocalsound} That's fine .Project Manager: Uh {vocalsound} um {disfmarker}Marketing: You're the boss , you're {vocalsound} allowed to .Industrial Designer: Well with the one-handed designyou also have the the problem of the size w 'cause you know from cell phones , they can be too small . So if the remote is too small it {disfmarker}Marketing: Yeah .Project Manager: Yeah .Industrial Designer: if it'ssmall it probably looks better , but may not be th as functional . So for that there's {disfmarker}Project Manager: Okay , soIndustrial Designer: So {disfmarker}Project Manager: unfortunately we've got about fiveminutes here {vocalsound} to come up with our um remote control idea and start rolling with it . Um we've talked about our experiences with remote control and um we've got a couple ideas um . Let's see here . Whatif we had what if we had not only um {disfmarker} say we went with the ball the ball function um , but maybe we give it sort of grips along the side s um to make it easier to hold on to . So you know um s so it's easierto hold onto that way .User Interface: Yeah .Project Manager: Course that'll then remove some of our our ball . Unless this unless this part were raised , so say the cover flips over and covers that part . So the grip is{disfmarker} No , that wouldn't work either um . But if we're gonna make it flat on the bottom , then that eliminates our ball anyways . So if it were flat on the bottom and then had the sorta grips on the side here Iguess , um and then {vocalsound} flat uh {disfmarker} And then we have the problem with the hinge . So if we're flat on the bottom , it's not gonna roll away , it'll stay where we want .Industrial Designer: Thequestion is also , I dunno , d do you really always want to open that thing when you have to use it ?Project Manager: Mm , that's true .Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} It's probably going to lie around opened all thetime anyway , so I don't know if a lid is a good idea . From stabil stability point of view uh it certainly is , but also you have to face it and take into account the more of these things break by accident , uh the more wesell . So it's {disfmarker} don't make it too stable {vocalsound} uh .Project Manager: So we don't have it flip open . We just have a ball {disfmarker}User Interface: But then maybe to go back to the to th s somethingalong those things then .Industrial Designer: To the other design .Project Manager: Okay , so then we forget the ball .Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} It looks cool . {vocalsound}Marketing: {vocalsound} Looks coolthough .Project Manager: {vocalsound} It looks cool , but it's really not {disfmarker} it's not functional um .Marketing: Yeah .Industrial Designer: Uh {vocalsound} functional .Project Manager: So we've got our sort ofkeyboard kind . What if we flipped it around here , so that it were um {disfmarker} Sorry , that doesn't look anything like what you {vocalsound} had there . Um so it's up and down , you hold it this way .UserInterface: Yeah .Project Manager: Course then it's it's like the rectangular {vocalsound} again , only with a couple of jutting out points . {vocalsound}Marketing: {vocalsound}Industrial Designer: Right . Right .ProjectManager: But it's one-handed um .Industrial Designer: Question is what makes those game pads functional ? W I think that's pretty much the form for full hand . So it's a round shape underneath that makes it comfy,Project Manager: Yeah .Industrial Designer: right ,Marketing: Mm .Industrial Designer: makes it nice , so that's the essential part . Except for that I think we'll not {disfmarker} probably not get a get away from somelonger design .Project Manager: Yeah . {vocalsound}Marketing: Right .Industrial Designer: 'Cause you also have to know which way around to point this thing .Project Manager: Yeah ,Industrial Designer: You know ,allProject Manager: because it doesn't have a cord , like joysticks do .Industrial Designer: that dif batteries {disfmarker} right , and {disfmarker} Batteries go weak as well , so um after a while you have to point ittowards the uh towards the equipment you wanna control with it , right ? So , have to m show which is the front , which is the back .Project Manager: Is it possible to have it to where it would work with a like a sensoron either side ? So that either way you're pointing it it would work .Industrial Designer: I suppose you could do that . O of course the more technology you stick in that , the more it'll cost , so .Project Manager: Moreexpensive and {disfmarker} yeah .Industrial Designer: Course you can do that .Project Manager: {vocalsound} 'Kay . Um {disfmarker}Industrial Designer: I mean of course it'll be evident after a while or {disfmarker}if you look at it , it'll it'll be evident which way around to point it , since you have the the numbers and the and the {vocalsound} the buttons and stuff ,Project Manager: True .Industrial Designer: but um it's ratherabout an instinctual thing ,User Interface: Put it {disfmarker}Industrial Designer: like you just grab it , you don't have to s look at it , you know , which way around to point it . Otherwise the design of {disfmarker} orthe the point of putting two sensors on both sides um would probably work .User Interface: Even if you designed it {disfmarker} in some {disfmarker} in a way that you know , isn't a rectangle , but still pointed in adirection that had definite points . So if that's your thing and you got something like that instead ,Marketing: Yeah . {vocalsound}User Interface: and there's your s you kn you know which way you're gonna pointing it.Project Manager: 'Kay .User Interface: Um {disfmarker}Marketing: Sorry to interrupt , but we have a warning to finish .Project Manager: Are we out of time ?Industrial Designer: Mm .Marketing: Yeah .ProjectManager: Okay , well , just to finish up , should we s go with this plan , start making some {disfmarker} Are good ideas , what are not .Industrial Designer: Let's .User Interface: Does it say {disfmarker} what does itsay for nIndustrial Designer: Obviously {disfmarker}User Interface: it says on there what we need to do for the next meeting , I think .Project Manager: Uh . Must finish now , so .User Interface: TProject Manager: And


Gareth Rogers: Good morning, and welcome to today's meeting of the Children, Young People and Education Committee. Unfortunately, the Chair is unable to attend today, so in accordance with Standing Order 17.22 Icall for nominations for a temporary Chair for the duration of today's meeting.Julie Morgan AM: I nominate John Griffiths.Gareth Rogers: Thank you.Darren Millar AM: I'll second that nomination.Gareth Rogers: Asthere's only one nomination, I declare that John Griffiths has been appointed as temporary Chair. Thank you, John.John Griffiths AM: Okay. Thank you all very much, and item 1 on our agenda today is introductions,apologies, substitutions and declarations of interest. We've received apologies from Hefin David and Lynne Neagle. There are no substitutions. Are there any declarations of interest? No. We will move on then to item 2,and our inquiry into the impact of Brexit on higher and further education, and our first evidence session. I'm very pleased to welcome the Higher Education Funding Council for Wales here today, and Dr David Blaney aschief executive, and Bethan Owen, director of institutional engagement. Welcome to you both. Thanks for coming along to give evidence today. If it's okay with you, we'll move straight to questions, and JulieMorgan.Julie Morgan AM: Good morning. Bore da. I wondered if we could start off with you telling us what evidence you can see that the Brexit process has had any impact on Welsh higher education so far.Dr DavidBlaney: Can I preface the response by just reminding you that we are, by contract and by role, apolitical, and a lot of the judgments about the impact of Brexit essentially reflect where people sit politically in terms ofwhether they think it's a good thing or a bad thing? We're not going to go there, obviously, today, so we'll stick to the facts as we can see them, and hopefully we'll be able to help you, but there are areas where we areunable to help. That's part of the reason.John Griffiths AM: We certainly do not expect you to enter the political fray in any way.Dr David Blaney: Thank you. But even in terms of your assessment of whether this isgoing to be a good thing or a bad thing, a good impact or a bad impact, some of that inevitably in the end becomes a matter of your politics on it, so we will be as careful as we can be on that. In terms of the impact ofBrexit on higher education, clearly, the significance here is about the contribution that higher education can make to Wales. So, we fund provision; we don't fund providers, technically, although obviously there's notmuch provision without providers. So, we are interested in the sustainability of higher education providers, but fundamentally the issue is: what does the HE system in Wales do for Wales, and what impact might Brexithave on the capacity of the system to continue to deliver for Wales? So, we know that universities make annually about £5 billion of impact; 50,000 jobs. Of course, in Wales, all of that economic impact is really verysignificant, and uncertainty about the relationships and the arrangements with Europe is one of the most significant issues confronting university management at the moment. That has an impact in a number of ways.We can identify at the moment the extent to which the HE sector in Wales is exposed to sources of income that are located from the EU, so EU students, structural funds, and EU research funding, and so on, from theEU. We can identify some of that, but, actually, what happens in the future is much harder to be clear about. We are beginning to see some impact in terms of applications from EU students and I'll ask Bethan to sharesome details on that in a moment. We're also beginning to pick up, only anecdotally, some signs that there are increasing difficulties in the UK sector, and the Welsh sector as part of that, in playing in some of the EUcollaborative research activities. And that, I think, just reflects the extent to which EU partners consider that British partners might be a stable partner as we go through this transition period. We don't have data onthat—that's anecdotal—but there are signs that some of those relationships are beginning to become a little bit more difficult. In terms of the financial impact of that, clearly, if it is accepted that the UK is a netcontributor to the EU then, presumably, some of the money—we're almost immediately straight into politics if you're not careful—but some of the money will be available back to the UK, and the extent to which Walesbenefits or not from that returned money is a function of the political relationship between the Welsh Government and Her Majesty's Government. It's not necessarily the case that Wales will always lose out in thatrelationship, but that will become a matter of politics. There's a broader dimension, which is about the economic impact of Brexit on the UK economy and how much tax revenue there is and all of that. I think it's veryhard for us to be definitive about how that's going to play out. I think that depends on the deal and how it all unfolds over the next several years. But we can certainly anticipate some turbulence and exactly how thatplays for institutions remains to be seen. We can touch later on on the extent to which they are sighted on this and preparing for it. So, in terms of recruitment, Bethan.Bethan Owen: This is based on theUCAS applications and the report that was published at the end of June, 30 June. The European Union-domiciled applicants to Wales have decreased by 8 per cent, which contrasts with a 2 per cent increase for Englishinstitutions, and non-EU—so international students, not from Europe—have also decreased by 9 per cent to Welsh institutions, again contrasting with a 7 per cent increase in England. So, those are the signs ofchanges.John Griffiths AM: Okay. Could I then just ask you what you see as the main pressures on the Welsh higher education sector at the moment?Bethan Owen: The funding position would be the main pressure. Therecommendations made by Sir Ian Diamond in his review of higher education funding and student finance are in the process of being implemented, and the changes to the student finance arrangements will take effectfrom this September. However, the recommendations for re-establishing funding at Welsh institutions are expected to take quite a bit longer. That funding, when it returns to institutions, is intended to re-establishfunding for higher cost provision, both full time and part time; reinstate funding for innovation; and maintain, at the very least, the research funding in real terms. Universities, in the meantime, are trying to minimisethe cost reductions that they're making in order to maintain the infrastructure, so that when the funding comes they can get the best value out of it. We have announced our funding allocations for 2018-19. For theresearch and teaching grant, though, we are still funding at a lower level—£12.5 million less—then the starting point for the Diamond report, the 2015-16 starting report. But we expect to be able to start introducingfunding from 2019-20 to make a start on implementing Diamond. And it's probably important to note that the Diamond recommendations predated Brexit, therefore the challenges introduced by Brexit are in addition tothose that the Diamond report was addressing. The other pressures relate to student recruitment. I mentioned the EU and international students. There is also the start of a reduction, both in Welsh-domiciled andEnglish-domiciled applications to Wales. Enrolments are obviously the key important number, which we'll see later. And the other pressures include pay and pension costs, not least the issues around the universitiessuperannuation scheme pension fund, where there's potentially a significant increase in cost. Increased student expectations for modern facilities and infrastructure bring a requirement for capital expenditure andborrowing, which bring their own pressures. And finally, the uncertainty about potential consequences that could arise from the review in England of fees and funding—the Augar review.John Griffiths AM: In terms ofEuropean Union students and enrolment, is Wales forecast to do less well than England and, if so, why might that be?Bethan Owen: They are not forecasting it. It's very difficult until the enrolments are made, and it'salso very hard to see—the data that we see is the UCAS data. Institutions also recruit directly, so until we see the actual recruitment—. I think the arrangements that have changed from 2018-19 also impact on EUstudents. So, now, they have to find the full fee, whereas previously they were getting the grant in the same way as Welsh students. So, I'm speculating that that might be having an impact as well on EU students'appetite to come.John Griffiths AM: Okay. First of all Llyr, then Mark.Llyr Gruffydd AM: Well, that's straight into what I was going to ask, really, about what you think the factors are that led to this 8 per cent or 9 percent drop in EU students applying to study in Wales, where we see a 2 per cent increase in England. Is that it, or are there other things that you've taken into account? What's your assessment of the reasons behindthis?Dr David Blaney: It's very difficult to be definitive about the reasons, but I think there are probably two. The one that Bethan has already indicated, which is the change in student support arrangements for EUstudents, will have an effect of perturbation. That's probably relatively temporary—let's hope it is—as that settles down because, actually, the deal for EU students coming into Wales is no worse than that coming intoEngland. Ours would be better because the fee level is slightly lower, but we do struggle in Wales in terms of the Anglocentric nature of the media and so on. So, getting the messages out is a challenge. The otherdimension is that when you're in a highly competitive recruitment market, you have to do what you can to look attractive. Part of that is about being able to invest in facilities, and particularly buildings and kit, and therelative levels of investment between Wales and England over quite a long period of time now probably have an impact on that. Certainly, anecdotally I know, from my own family, that a lot of the choices have beenmade in terms of the state of repair of campuses and so on. There's something rational about that, isn't there? If you've got a system that is relatively better invested, then you're likely to have a better studentexperience because the resources are likely to be better. So, that's not irrational. We saw a sort of similar but opposite effect when the £9,000 fee maximum limit came in, and some institutions, mostly inEngland—there was one in Wales—chose to pitch their fee levels really quite low, relative to that £9,000, and caught a cold in the student recruitment market because fee levels denote quality in the student mind. So,the price sensitivities work quite differently. So, again, if you've got a relatively better invested part of the system, then that might well be one of the reasons why it looks more attractive.Llyr Gruffydd AM: That latterfactor would affect the whole of the cohort, not just the international recruitment, of course.Dr David Blaney: Indeed. Yes, indeed. The implementation of the Diamond recommendations is crucial to that because that'sre-balancing where the policy of investment goes.John Griffiths AM: Okay. And Mark.Mark Reckless AM: If I heard you correctly earlier, you said that the applications from non-EU students were also down by 8 per centor 9 per cent. So, forgive me a certain scepticism about the explanation of the fall in the EU students being that they did get the fee grant and now they do not. If that's the explanation, why are we seeing the same fallin non-EU applications?Dr David Blaney: Well, I think the Welsh domiciled are also now having to face the prospect of finding a loan for the whole of the fee. So, that would potentially account for that. There's also ademographic dimension here with the downturn in the 18-year-old school-leaver profile, and that actually is happening in Wales at a slightly later point than in England.Mark Reckless AM: But this is non-EU students,and I think you said, Bethan, an 8 per cent or 9 per cent fall in them as well.Dr David Blaney: International non-EU. I beg your pardon. I misunderstood.Bethan Owen: There's also a mix effect. I gave a number thatwas for all English institutions that there will be differential impacts on.Mark Reckless AM: All English or all Welsh?Bethan Owen: Well, I contrasted the Welsh position with the English position where they were seeinggrowth. If you look, then—and we don't have the detailed information, but, again, what UCAS publish is some analysis by tariff. They analyse by type of institution—in other words, the grades that you need to get intoinstitutions—and there is a trend for growth being in the higher tariff institutions. So, there's a mix effect in there as well, and I think there's undoubtedly an element of perception of how welcome overseas andinternational students are, and that's something that we know the sector are working on with Government.Mark Reckless AM: Why would that affect Wales more than England? Do you think there's been perhaps toogreat a negativity about Brexit in the sector?Bethan Owen: I think it's the mix of institutions that we have. So, we only have sector information published at the moment. When we look at the mix of institutions that wehave, we will probably see a differential impact between Cardiff University and others.John Griffiths AM: Okay, Mark? Sorry, David, did you want to add anything?Dr David Blaney: I was just going to say that we wouldexpect to see quite differential performance in the English sector, so the overall numbers are being brought up by substantial increased performance with some of that sector, and it's a question of how many of that typeof institution you have in Wales.Mark Reckless AM: So, performance is increasing amongst the English universities, but not amongst the Welsh, you think.Dr David Blaney: I think performance is increasing, butincreasing substantially with some of the English sector, not all of it. So, you get an average for the sector that is increased performance, but actually the stronger players within that sector, with the strongerinternational profiles, are bringing that up, and we have fewer in Wales that have that sort of presence.John Griffiths AM: Okay. Darren.Darren Millar AM: Would it be fair to say, then, that the universities over theborder in England are better at selling themselves internationally than our Welsh institutions? Or is it just this fact that we've got fewer very high tariff universities versus the English market?Dr David Blaney: I suspect,and this is speculation—I suspect that it's a bit of both. I think some of it is to do with the mix of different types of institution. I would then come back to the point I was making about the Anglocentric nature of the UKmedia. If you're looking overseas, I think Wales has to work harder to penetrate the consciousness.Darren Millar AM: But, forgive me, don't international students just look at the UK as a whole? How are we comparingto Scotland, for example, or Northern Ireland, in terms of their universities? Do you have a comparative figure for Scottish universities?Bethan Owen: I haven't got that one with me for now, but there will be one in thedata.Dr David Blaney: Yes, we could get that.Bethan Owen: Again, it's a combination of being part of the UK but differentiating, and the ability to differentiate the strengths of Wales, so attracting those students toWales specifically, on top of the UK draw.Dr David Blaney: So, in terms of the efforts that have been made, there's a programme now that is being run by the sector in Wales—it's 'Study in Wales'. It's relatively recent;you could argue that we could have got there earlier. But that is a determined collective effort to present Wales as a good place to study, with particular messages about what distinguishes studying in Wales fromstudying more broadly in the UK. In a sense, that is responding to the need to increase the presence of Wales in an international market. So, that sort of initiative I think is very good, very welcome. It will take a whileto actually have an impact, but I think that's exactly the sort of work the sector need to be doing more of.Mark Reckless AM: What are those messages on why prospective students should study in Wales?Dr DavidBlaney: One of them in particular is relative safety. We know that one of the considerations, particularly for parents of overseas students, is are they going to go to a safe environment, and we know that the perceptionof international students who study in Wales is that this is a comfortable and safe place to be. That's partly a function of the size of our larger cities—quite a lot smaller than many of the cities in England. So, that's a keymessage. Being part of a UK system is also an important message there as well. So, we've got a UK-quality system, a UK degree, and the strength of that brand is available in Wales, but it's available in a way that issafer and more supportive, I think is the messaging that's coming through.John Griffiths AM: Okay. We'd better move on, I think, hadn't we? Darren, then.Darren Millar AM: I just wonder to what extent you have beenable to plan in your financial forecasts for the next few years ahead for the potential impacts of Brexit. What have you built in, if anything?Bethan Owen: In terms of our funding, we receive our funding annually, but thesector provides us with financial forecasts, and we use those for monitoring sustainability. So, the last full forecasts that we had were in July 2017. We are due to receive a full forecast at the end of this month, and weobviously have updated information from institutions.Darren Millar AM: And they're three-year forecasts that come through to you, aren't they?Bethan Owen: They are four plus the current year. So, we've got numbersto 2019-20 at the moment, and expect to go to 2020-21.Darren Millar AM: And what are the universities expecting? What do they anticipate?Bethan Owen: Well, for 2017-18, which is the year we're about to end now,they were expecting £38 million income from European students, and approximately £91 million from the various European programme funding sources, and that's about 8 per cent of the total income—£1.5 billion—ofthe sector. The forecasts are assuming that that continues, albeit that institutions have various scenarios that they have for all sorts of scenarios that we can all speculate on, and, as I mentioned earlier, the balancingact of maintaining infrastructure and resources and staff in the short term is where we are at the moment, or where the sector is at the moment. And there are also signs that the banks and lending institutions arebecoming a bit more risk-averse in providing borrowing to institutions, and of more differentiation between individual institutions being made than has possibly been the case in the past. The sector made an operatingdeficit, again looking at all Welsh institutions collectively last year, 2016-17, of £17 million. That's before other gains and losses. And we're expecting a similar collective level of deficit for this financial year, if not slightlyhigher. Now, these are managed deficits and we are not currently seeing critical short-term cash availability issues in the sector. However, the increase in funding from Diamond is a key part of enabling the sector toreturn to longer-term financial sustainability. Short-term challenges can be met if there's a reasonable prospect of future funding. You can manage in the short-term, but there comes a point when the big costreductions and infrastructure reductions have to be made. And, again, having mentioned the pressures on pay, pensions and other challenges, it is difficult to gauge whether, if those factors come into play as well, someof these cost reductions may have to be made before funding comes in to replace—either Diamond funding or the European replacement funding.Darren Millar AM: So, would it be fair to say that, in terms of the fundingarrangements, and, in terms of the student numbers, one reason why we've got this recruitment problem is this lack of investment in the capital infrastructure that we've seen in recent years because of the financingarrangements from the Welsh Government, and the fee regime that we had previously, and the student finance regime that we had previously, not getting more cash into our Welsh universities perhaps, and that, overthe next few years, there's going to have to be much more significant investment in capital if we're to raise the game and be more competitive, yes?Bethan Owen: Yes, that would be fair to say.Darren Millar AM: So, towhat extent are they planning for more capital investment in those financial strategies that they've been preparing and presenting to you?Bethan Owen: They are all planning for capital investment. They are in differentpositions in terms of capacity to borrow and the assumptions. This year, 2018-19, is the first time that we've had capital funding in our remit letter—so, we've got £10 million of capital funding, which is very welcome,


Grad B: what things to talk about .Grad F: I 'm {disfmarker} What ? Really ? Oh , that 's horrible ! Disincentive !Grad A: OK , we 're recording .Grad F: Hello ?Grad B: Check check {pause} check check .Grad D: Uh ,yeah .Grad F: Hello ? Which am I ?Professor C: Oh right .Grad B: Alright . Good .Grad F: Channel fi OK . OK . Are you doing something ? OK , then I guess I 'm doing something . So , um , So basically the result of mmuch thinking since the last time we met , um , but not as much writing , um , is a sheet that I have a lot of , like , thoughts and justification of comments on but I 'll just pass out as is right now . So , um , here . If youcould pass this around ? And there 's two things . And so one on one side is {disfmarker} on one side is a sort of the revised sort of updated semantic specification .Grad D: Um {disfmarker} The {disfmarker} wait.Grad F: And the other side is , um , sort of a revised construction formalism .Grad E: This is just one sheet , right ?Grad D: Ah ! Just one sheet .Grad F: It 's just one sheet .Grad D: OK .Grad F: It 's just a {disfmarker}Nothing else .Grad D: Front , back .Grad F: Um , Enough to go around ? OK . And in some ways it 's {disfmarker} it 's {disfmarker} it 's very similar to {disfmarker} There are very few changes in some ways from whatwe 've , um , uh , b done before but I don't think everyone here has seen all of this . So , uh , I 'm not sure where to begin . Um , as usual the disclaimers are there are {disfmarker} all these things are {disfmarker} it's only slightly more stable than it was before .Grad E: Mm - hmm .Grad F: And , um , after a little bit more discussion and especially like Keith and I {disfmarker} I have more linguistic things to settle in the next fewdays , um , it 'll probably change again some more .Grad E: Yeah .Grad F: Um , maybe I will {disfmarker} let 's start b let 's start on number two actually on the notation , um , because that 's , I 'm thinking , possibly alittle more familiar to , um {disfmarker} to people . OK , so the top block is just sort of a {disfmarker} sort of abstract nota it 's sort of like , um , listings of the kinds of things that we can have . And certain things thathave , um , changed , have changed back to this . There {disfmarker} there 's been a little bit of , um , going back and forth . But basically obviously all constructions have some kind of name . I forgot to include thatyou could have a type included in this line .Professor C: What I was gonna {disfmarker} Right .Grad F: So something like , um {disfmarker} Well , there 's an example {disfmarker} the textual example at the end hasclausal construction . So , um , just to show it doesn't have to be beautiful It could be , you know , simple old text as well . Um , there are a couple of {disfmarker} Uh , these three have various ways of doing certainthings . So I 'll just try to go through them . So they could all have a type at the beginning . Um , and then they say the key word constructionProfessor C: Oh , I see .Grad F: and they have some name .Professor C: So{disfmarker} so the current syntax is if it s if there 's a type it 's before constructGrad F: Yeah , right .Professor C: OK , that 's fine .Grad F: OK , and then it has a block that is constituents . And as usual I guess all theconstructions her all the examples here have only , um , tsk {comment} one type of constituent , that is a constructional constituent . I think that 's actually gonna turn out to m be certainly the most common kind . Butin general instead of the word " construct " , th here you might have " meaning " or " form " as well . OK ? So if there 's some element that doesn't {disfmarker} that isn't yet constructional in the sense that it mapsform and meaning . OK , um , the main change with the constructs which {disfmarker} each of which has , um , the key word " construct " and then some name , and then some type specification , is that it 's{disfmarker} it 's pro it 's often {disfmarker} sometimes the case in the first case here that you know what kind of construction it is . So for example whatever I have here is gonna be a form of the word " throw " , or it's gonna be a form of the word , you know , I don't know , " happy " , or something like that . Or , you know , some it 'll be a specific word or maybe you 'll have the type . You 'll say " I need a p uh spatial relationphrase here " or " I need a directional specifier here " . So - uh you could have a j a actual type here . Um , or you could just say in the second case that you only know the meaning type . So a very common example ofthis is that , you know , in directed motion , the first person to do something should be an agent of some kind , often a human . Right ? So if I {disfmarker} you know , the um , uh , run down the street then I{disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I run down the street , it 's typed , uh , " I " , meaning category is what 's there . The {disfmarker} the new kind is this one that is sort of a pair and , um , sort of skipping fonts andwhatever . The idea is that sometimes there are , um , general constructions that you know , that you 're going to need . It 's {disfmarker} it 's the equivalent of a noun phrase or a prepositional phrase , or somethinglike that there .Grad E: Mm - hmm .Grad F: And usually it has formal um , considerations that will go along with it .Professor C: Mm - hmm .Grad F: And then uh , you might know something much more specificdepending on what construction you 're talking about , about what meaning {disfmarker} what specific meaning you want . So the example again at the bottom , which is directed motion , you might need a nominalexpression to take the place of , you know , um , " the big th " , you you know , " the big {disfmarker} the tall dark man " , you know , " walked into the room " .Grad E: Mm - hmm .Grad F: But because of the nature ofthis particular construction you know not just that it 's nominal of some kind but in particular , that it 's some kind of animate nominal , and which will apply just as well to like , you know , a per you know , a simpleproper noun or to some complicated expression . Um , so I don't know if the syntax will hold but something that gives you a way to do both constructional and meaning types . So . OK , then I don't think the ,{comment} um {disfmarker} at least {disfmarker} Yeah . {comment} None of these examples have anything different for formal constraints ? But you can refer to any of the , um , sort of available elements and scope, right ? which here are the constructs , {comment} to say something about the relation . And I think i if you not if you compare like the top block and the textual block , um , we dropped like the little F subscript . The Fsubscripts refer to the " form " piece of the construct .Professor C: Good .Grad F: And I think that , um , in general it 'll be unambiguous . Like if you were giving a formal constraint then you 're referring to the formalpole of that . So {disfmarker} so by saying {disfmarker} if I just said " Name one " then that means name one formal and we 're talking about formal struc {comment} Which {disfmarker} which makes sense . Uh ,there are certain times when we 'll have an exception to that , in which case you could just indicate " here I mean the meaningful for some reason " . Right ? Or {disfmarker} Actually it 's more often that , only to handlethis one special case of , you know , " George and Jerry walk into the room in that order " .Grad E: Mm - hmm .Grad F: So we have a few funny things where something in the meaning might refer to something in theform . But {disfmarker} but s we 're not gonna really worry about that for right now and there are way We can be more specific if we have to later on . OK , and so in terms of the {disfmarker} the relations , you know ,as usual they 're before and ends . I should have put an example in of something that isn't an interval relation but in form you might also have a value binding . You know , you could say that , um , you know , " name -one dot " , t you know , " number equals " , you know , a plural or something like that .Grad E: Mm - hmm .Grad F: There are certain things that are attribute - value , similar to the bindings below but I mean they 'rejust {disfmarker} us usually they 're going to be value {disfmarker} value fillers , right ? OK , and then again semantic constraints here are just {disfmarker} are just bindings . There was talk of changing the name ofthat . And Johno and I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} you {disfmarker} you and I can like fight about that if you like ? but about changing it to " semantic {pause} n effects " , which I thought was a little bit too order -biasedGrad B: Well {disfmarker} ThGrad F: and " semantic bindings " , which I thought might be too restrictive in case we don't have only bindings . And so it was an issue whether constraints {disfmarker} um , therewere some linguists who reacted against " constraints " , saying , " oh , if it 's not used for matching , then it shouldn't be called a constraint " . But I think we want to be uncommitted about whether it 's used formatching or not . Right ? Cuz there are {disfmarker} I think we thought of some situations where it would be useful to use whatever the c bindings are , for actual , you know , sort of like modified constraining purposes.Professor C: Well , you definitely want to de - couple the formalism from the parsing strategy . So that whether or not it 's used for matching or only for verification , I {disfmarker}Grad E: Yeah .Grad F: Yeah , yeah .It 's used shouldn't matter , right ? Mm - hmm .Professor C: s For sure . I mean , I don't know what , uh , term we want to useGrad F: Mm - hmm .Professor C: but we don't want to {disfmarker}Grad F: Yeah , uh ,there was one time when {disfmarker} when Hans explained why " constraints " was a misleading word for him .Professor C: Yep .Grad F: And I think the reason that he gave was similar to the reason why Johnothought it was a misleading term , which was just an interesting coincidence . Um , but , uh {disfmarker} And so I was like , " OK , well both of you don't like it ?Professor C: It 's g it 's gone .Grad F: Fine , we canchange it " . But I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I 'm starting to like it again .Grad B: But {disfmarker}Grad F: So that that 's why {disfmarker} {comment} That 's why I 'll stick with it .Grad A: Well , you know what?Grad F: So {disfmarker}Grad A: If you have an " if - then " phrase , do you know what the " then " phrase is called ?Professor C: ThGrad F: What ? Con - uh , a consequent ?Grad A: Yeah .Grad F: Yeah , but it 's notan " if - then " .Grad A: No , but {disfmarker}Professor C: I know . Anyway , so the other {disfmarker} the other strategy you guys could consider is when you don't know what word to put , you could put no word,Grad F: Mm - hmm .Professor C: just meaning . OK ? And the then let {disfmarker}Grad E: Yeah .Grad F: Yeah , that 's true .Grad B: So that 's why you put semantic constraints up top and meaning bindings down{disfmarker} down here ?Grad F: Oh , oops ! No . That was just a mistake of cut and paste from when I was going with it .Grad B: OK .Professor C: OK .Grad F: So , I 'm sorry . I didn't mean {disfmarker} that one 'san in unintentional .Grad B: So this should be semantic and {disfmarker}Grad F: Sometimes I 'm intentionally inconsistentGrad B: Grad F: cuz I 'm not sure yet . Here , I actually {disfmarker} it was just a mistake.Grad B: Th - so this definitely should be " semantic constraints " down at the bottom ?Grad E: Sure .Grad F: Yeah .Grad B: OK .Grad F: Well , unless I go with " meaning " but i I mean , I kind of like " meaning " betterthan " semantic "Grad B: Or {disfmarker}Professor C: Oh , whatever .Grad F: but I think there 's {pause} vestiges of other people 's biases .Professor C: Or {disfmarker} wh That - bGrad F: Like {disfmarker}ProfessorC: Right . Minor {disfmarker} min problem {disfmarker}Grad F: Minor point .Professor C: OK .Grad E: Extremely .Grad F: OK , um , so I think the middle block doesn't really give you any more information , ex than thetop block . And the bottom block similarly only just illus you know , all it does is illustrate that you can drop the subscripts and {disfmarker} and that you can drop the , um {disfmarker} uh , that you can give dualtypes . Oh , one thing I should mention is about " designates " . I think I 'm actually inconsistent across these as well . So , um , strike out the M subscript on the middle block .Professor C: Mm - hmm .Grad F: Sobasically now , um , this is actually {disfmarker} this little change actually goes along with a big linguistic change , which is that " designates " isn't only something for the semantics to worry about now .Professor C:Good .Grad F: So we want s " designates " to actually know one of the constituents which acts like a head in some respects but is sort of , um , really important for say composition later on . So for instance , if someother construction says , you know , " are you of type {disfmarker} is this part of type whatever " , um , the " designates " tells you which sort of part is the meaning part . OK , so if you have like " the big red ball " ,you know , you wanna know if there 's an object or a noun . Well , ball is going to be the designated sort of element of that kind of phrase .Grad E: Mmm .Grad F: Um , there is a slight complication here which is thatwhen we talk about form it 's useful sometimes to talk about , um {disfmarker} to talk about there also being a designated object and we think that that 'll be the same one , right ? So the ball is the head of the phrase, " the r the {disfmarker} " , um , " big red ball " , and the entity denoted by the word " ball " is sort of the semantic head in some ways of {disfmarker} of this sort of , um , in interesting larger element .Professor C: Aa and the {disfmarker} Yeah . And there 's {disfmarker} uh there 's ca some cases where the grammar depends on some form property of the head . And {disfmarker} and this enables you to get that , if I understandyou right .Grad E: Yeah .Grad F: Mm - hmm .Grad E: Yeah .Grad F: Right , right .Grad E: That 's the idea .Professor C: Yeah yeah .Grad E: Yeah .Grad F: And , uh , you might be able to say things like if the head has togo last in a head - final language , you can refer to the head as a p the , you know {disfmarker} the formal head as opposed to the rest of the form having to be at the end of that decision .Professor C: Right .Grad F: Sothat 's a useful thing so that you can get some internal structural constraints in .Professor C: OK , so that all looks good . Let me {disfmarker} Oh , w Oh . I don't know . Were you finished ?Grad F: Um , there was a listof things that isn't included but you {disfmarker} you can {disfmarker} you can ask a question . That might @ @ it .Professor C: OK . So , i if I understand this the {disfmarker} aside from , uh , construed and all thatsort of stuff , the {disfmarker} the differences are mainly that , {vocalsound} we 've gone to the possibility of having form - meaning pairs for a typeGrad F: Mm - hmm .Professor C: or actually gone back to ,Grad F:Right .Professor C: if we go back far enough {disfmarker}Grad F: Well , except for their construction meaning , so it 's not clear that , uh {disfmarker} Well , right now it 's a c uh contr construction type and meaningtype . So I don't know what a form type is .Professor C: Oh , I see . Yeah , yeah , yeah . I 'm sorry , you 're right .Grad F: Yeah .Professor C: A construction type . Uh , that 's fine . But it , um {disfmarker}Grad F: Right. A well , and a previous , um , you know , version of the notation certainly allowed you to single out the meaning bit by it . So you could say " construct of type whatever designates something " .Professor C: Yeah.Grad F: But that was mostly for reference purposes , just to refer to the meaning pole . I don't think that it was often used to give an extra meaning const type constraint on the meaning , which is really what we wantmost of the time I think .Professor C: Mm - hmm .Grad F: Um , I {disfmarker} I don't know if we 'll ever have a case where we actually h if there is a form category constraint , you could imagine having a triple therethat says , you know {disfmarker} that 's kind of weird .Professor C: No , no , no , I don't think so . I think that you 'll {disfmarker} you 'll do fine .Grad E: I {disfmarker}Professor C: In fact , these are , um , as long as{disfmarker} as Mark isn't around , these are form constraints . So a nominal expression is {disfmarker} uh , the fact that it 's animate , is semantic . The fact that it 's n uh , a nominal expression I would say on mostpeople 's notion of {disfmarker} of f you know , higher form types , this i this is one .Grad F: Mm - hmm .Grad E: Yeah .Grad F: Right , right .Professor C: And I think that 's just fine .Grad E: Yeah , yeah .Grad F: Whichis fine , yeah .Professor C: Yeah .Grad E: It 's {disfmarker} that now , um , I 'm mentioned this , I {disfmarker} I don't know if I ever explained this but the point of , um , I mentioned in the last meeting , {comment}the point of having something called " nominal expression " is , um , because it seems like having the verb subcategorize for , you know , like say taking as its object just some expression which , um , designates anobject or designates a thing , or whatever , um , that leads to some syntactic problems basically ? So you wanna , you know {disfmarker} you sort of have this problem like " OK , well , I 'll put the word " , uh , let 'ssay , the word " dog " , you know . And that has to come right after the verbGrad F: Mm - hmm .Grad E: cuz we know verb meets its object . And then we have a construction that says , oh , you can have " the "preceding a noun . And so you 'd have this sort of problem that the verb has to meet the designatum .Professor C: Right .Grad E: And you could get , you know , " the kicked dog " or something like that , meaning "kicked the dog " .Professor C: Right .Grad E: Um , so you kind of have to let this phrase idea in thereProfessor C: That I {disfmarker} I have no problem with it at all .Grad E: but {disfmarker} It - itProfessor C: I thinkit 's fine .Grad E: Yeah .Grad F: Yeah . Right , n s you may be {disfmarker} you may not be like everyone else in {disfmarker} in Berkeley ,Grad E: Yeah . Yeah .Grad F: but that 's OK .Grad E: I mean , we {disfmarker}we {disfmarker} we sort of thought we were getting away with , uh {disfmarker} with , a pGrad F: Uh , we don't mind either , so {disfmarker}Grad E: I mean , this is not reverting to the X - bar theory of {disfmarker}of phrase structure .Professor C: Right .Grad E: But , uh ,Grad F: Right .Grad E: I just know that this is {disfmarker} Like , we didn't originally have in mind that , uh {disfmarker} that verbs would subcategorize for aparticular sort of form .Grad F: Mm - hmm .Professor C: But they do .Grad E: Um , but they does .Grad F: Well , there 's an alternative to thisGrad E: At least in English .Grad F: which is , um {disfmarker} The questionwas did we want directed motion ,Professor C: Yeah .Grad F: which is an argument structure construction {disfmarker}Professor C: Mm - hmm .Grad E: Yeah .Grad F: did we want it to worry about , um , anything morethan the fact that it , you know , has semantic {disfmarker} You know , it 's sort of frame - based construction . So one option that , you know , Keith had mentioned also was like , well if you have more abstractconstructions such as subject , predicate , basically things like grammatical relations ,Grad E: Mm - hmm .Grad F: those could intersect with these in such a way that subject , predicate , or subject , predicate , subject ,verb , ob you know , verb object would require that those things that f fill a subject and object are NOM expressions .Professor C: Right .Grad F: And that would be a little bit cleaner in some way . But you know , fornow , I mean ,Professor C: Yeah . But it {disfmarker} y y it 's {disfmarker} yeah , just moving it {disfmarker} moving the c the cons the constraints around .Grad F: uh , you know . M moving it to another place , right.Grad E: Yeah .Professor C: OK , so that 's {disfmarker}Grad F: But there does {disfmarker} basically , the point is there has to be that constraint somewhere , right ?Professor C: Right .Grad F: So , yeah .Professor C:And so that was the {disfmarker}Grad F: Robert 's not happy now ?Grad A: No !Grad F: Oh , OK .Professor C: OK , and sort of going with that is that the designatum also now is a pair .Grad F: Yes .Professor C: Insteadof just the meaning .Grad F: Mm - hmm .Professor C: And that aside from some terminology , that 's basically it .Grad F: Right .Professor C: I just want to b I 'm {disfmarker} I 'm asking .Grad E: Mm - hmm .Grad F:Yep .Grad E: Yeah .Grad F: Yeah , um , the un sort of the un - addressed questions in this , um , definitely would for instance be semantic constraints we talked about .Professor C: Yeah .Grad F: Here are just bindingsbut , right ? we might want to introduce mental spaces {disfmarker} You know , there 's all these things that we don't {disfmarker}Professor C: The whole {disfmarker} the mental space thing is clearly not here .GradF: Right ? So there 's going to be some extra {disfmarker} you know , definitely other notation we 'll need for that which we skip for now .Grad E: Mm - hmm .Professor C: By the way , I do want to get on that as soon