PhD B: We 're , I mean {pause} we {disfmarker} We didn't have a house before .Professor D: Yeah . Yeah .PhD E: OK .Professor D: We 're on again ? OK .PhD A: Mm - hmm . That is really great .Grad H: Yeah , so if{pause} uh {disfmarker} {pause} So if anyone hasn't signed the consent form , please do so .PhD A: That 's terrific .PhD B: Oh , yeah !Professor D: OKGrad H: The new consent form . The new and improved consentform .PhD A: Now you won't be able to walk or ride your bike , huh ?Professor D: OK .Postdoc F: Uh .PhD B: Right .Professor D: OK .Grad H: And uh , shall I go ahead and do some digits ?Professor D: Uh , we weregonna do that at the end , remember ?Grad H: OK , whatever you want .Professor D: Yeah . Just {disfmarker} just to be consistent , from here on in at least , that {disfmarker} {pause} that we 'll do it at the end .PhDB: The new consent form .Grad H: It 's uh {disfmarker} {pause} Yeah , it doesn't matter . OK .Professor D: OK Um Well , it ju I mean it might be that someone here has to go ,Postdoc F: Testing , one , two , three.Professor D: and {disfmarker} Right ? That was {disfmarker} that was sort of the point . So , uh {pause} I had asked actually anybody who had any ideas for an agenda {pause} to send it to me and no one did . So,Grad H: So we all forgot .Professor D: Uh ,Postdoc F: From last time I wanted to {disfmarker} Uh {pause} {pause} The {disfmarker} An iss uh {pause} one topic from last time .Professor D: Right , s OK , so one itemfor an agenda is uh {pause} Jane has some uh {vocalsound} uh some research to talk about , research issues . Um {pause} and {pause} Uh , Adam has some short research issues .Grad H: And I have some {pause}short research issues .Professor D: Um , I have a {pause} list of things that I think were done over the last three months I was supposed to {vocalsound} {vocalsound} send off , uh {pause} and , um {pause} I{disfmarker} I sent a note about it to uh {disfmarker} to Adam and Jane but I think I 'll just run through it {pause} also and see if someone thinks it 's inaccurate or {pause} uh insufficient .PhD A: A list that you haveto send off to who ?Professor D: Uh , to uh uh , IBM .PhD A: Oh .Professor D: OK . They 're , you know {disfmarker}PhD E: Professor D: So . Um , So , uh {pause} so , I 'll go through that . Um , {pause} And ,Anything else ? {pause} anyone wants to talk about ?PhD A: What about the , um {disfmarker} your trip , yesterday ?Professor D: No . OK . Um . Sort of off - topic I guess .PhD A: Oh , OK .Professor D: Cuz that 's{pause} Cuz that was all {disfmarker} all about the , uh {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I can chat with you about that {pause} off - line . That 's another thing . Um , And , Anything else ? Nothing else ?Uh , there 's a {disfmarker} I mean , there is a {disfmarker} {pause} a , um {pause} uh {pause} telephone call tomorrow , {pause} which will be a conference call {pause} that some of us are involved in {pause} foruh a possible proposal . Um , we 'll talk {disfmarker} we 'll talk about it next week if {disfmarker} if something {disfmarker}Grad H: Do you want me to {pause} be there for that ? I noticed you C C ' ed me , but Iwasn't actually a recipient . I didn't quite know what to make of that .Professor D: Uh Well , we 'll talk {disfmarker} talk about that after our meeting . OK .Grad H: OK .Professor D: Uh , OK . So it sounds like the{disfmarker} the three main things that we have to talk about are , uh this list , uh Jane and {disfmarker} Jane and Adam have some research items , and , other than that , anything , {pause} as usual , {pause}anything goes beyond that . OK , uh , Jane , since {disfmarker} since you were sort of cut off last time why don't we start with yours , make sure we get to it .Postdoc F: OK , it 's {disfmarker} it 's very {pause} eh{disfmarker} it 's {pause} very brief , I mean {disfmarker} just let me {disfmarker} just hand these out . Oops .Grad H: Is this the same as the email or different ?PhD C: Thanks .Postdoc F: It 's slightly different . I{disfmarker} {pause} basically the same .Grad H: OK .PhD A: Same idea ?Postdoc F: But , same idea . So , if you 've looked at this you 've seen it before , so {pause} Basically , {vocalsound} um {pause} as you know, uh {pause} part of the encoding {pause} includes a mark that indicates {pause} an overlap . It 's not indicated {pause} with , um {pause} uh , tight precision , it 's just indicated that {disfmarker} OK , so , It 'sindicated to {disfmarker} to {disfmarker} so the people know {pause} what parts of sp which {disfmarker} which stretches of speech were in the clear , versus being overlapped by others . So , I {pause} used thismark and , um {pause} and , uh {pause} uh , {pause} divided the {disfmarker} I wrote a script {pause} which divides things into individual minutes , {pause} of which we ended up with forty {pause} five , and alittle bit . And , uh {pause} you know , minute zero , of course , is the first minute up to {pause} sixty seconds .PhD C: OK .Postdoc F: And , um {pause} What you can see is the number of overlaps {pause} and then{pause} to the right , {pause} whether they involve two speakers , three speakers , or more than three speakers . And , {pause} um {pause} and , what I was looking for sp sp specifically was the question of {pause}whether they 're distributed evenly throughout or whether they 're {pause} bursts of them . Um . And {pause} it looked to me as though {disfmarker} uh , you know {disfmarker} y this is just {disfmarker} {pause} eh{disfmarker} eh , this would {disfmarker} this is not statistically {pause} verified , {pause} but it {pause} did look to me as though there are bursts throughout , rather than being {pause} localized to a particularregion . The part down there , where there 's the maximum number of {disfmarker} {pause} of , um {pause} overlaps is an area where we were discussing {pause} {vocalsound} whether or not it would be useful toindi to s to {pause} code {pause} stress , {pause} uh , sentence stress {pause} as possible indication of , uh {pause} information retrieval . So it 's like , {pause} you know , rather , {pause} lively discussion there.Professor D: What was {disfmarker} what 's the {disfmarker} the parenthesized stuff {pause} that says , like {disfmarker} e the first one that says six overlaps and then two point eight ?Postdoc F: Oh , th{vocalsound} {pause} That 's the per cent .Professor D: Mmm .Postdoc F: So , six is , uh {pause} two point eight percent {pause} of the total number of overlaps in the {pause} session .PhD E: Mm - hmm .ProfessorD: Ah .PhD C: Mm - hmm .Postdoc F: At the very end , this is when people were , {pause} you know , packing up to go basically , there 's {pause} this final stuff , I think we {disfmarker} {pause} I don't rememberwhere the digits {pause} fell . I 'd have to look at that . But {pause} the final three there are no overlaps at all . And {pause} couple times there {pause} are not .PhD E: Mm - hmm .Postdoc F: So , i it seems like itgoes through bursts {pause} but , um {pause} that 's kind of it .PhD E: Mm - hmm .Postdoc F: Now , {pause} Another question is {pause} is there {disfmarker} are there {pause} individual differences in whether you're likely to be overlapped with or to overlap with others . And , again {pause} I want to emphasize this is just one {pause} particular {pause} um {disfmarker} {pause} one particular meeting , and also there 's beenno statistical testing of it all , but {pause} I , um {pause} I took the coding of {pause} the {disfmarker} I , you know , my {disfmarker} I had this script {pause} figure out , um {pause} who {pause} was the firstspeaker , who was the second speaker involved in a two - person overlap , I didn't look at the ones involving three or more . And , um {pause} {pause} this is how it breaks down in the individual cells of {pause} whotended to be overlapping most often with who {disfmarker} who else , and {pause} if you look at the marginal totals , which is the ones on the right side and across the bottom , you get {pause} the totals for anindividual . So , {vocalsound} um {pause} If you {pause} look at the bottom , those are the , um {pause} numbers of overlaps in which {pause} um {pause} Adam was involved as the person doing the overlappingand if you look {disfmarker} I 'm sorry , but you 're o alphabetical , that 's why I 'm choosing you And then if you look across the right , {pause} then {pause} that 's where he was the {pause} person who was the spfirst speaker in the pair {pause} and got overlap overlapped with by somebody .PhD A: Hmm !PhD E: Mm - hmm .Postdoc F: And , {pause} then if you look down in the summary table , {pause} then you see that , um{pause} th they 're differences in {pause} whether a person got overlapped with or {pause} overlapped by .Grad H: Is this uh {pause} just raw counts or is it {disfmarker}Postdoc F: Raw counts .Grad H: So it wouldbe interesting to see how much each person spoke .PhD B: Mm - hmm .PhD C: Yeah .PhD E: Yeah {vocalsound} YeahPostdoc F: Yes , very true {disfmarker} very trueGrad H: Normalized to how much{disfmarker}Postdoc F: it would be good to normalize with respect to that . Now on the table I did {pause} take one step toward , uh {pause} away from the raw frequencies by putting , {pause} uh {pause}percentages . So that the percentage of time {pause} of the {disfmarker} of the times that a person spoke , {pause} what percentage {pause} eh , w so . Of the times a person spoke and furthermore was involved in atwo two - person overlap , {vocalsound} {vocalsound} what percentage of the time were they the overlapper and what percent of the time were they th the overlappee ? And there , it looks like you see somedifferences , um , {pause} that some people tend to be overlapped {pause} with more often than they 're overlapped , but , of course , uh i e {vocalsound} this is just one meeting , {pause} uh {pause} there 's nostatistical testing involved , and that would be {pause} required for a {disfmarker} for a finding {pause} of {pause} any {pause} kind of {pause} scientific {pause} reliability .Professor D: S so , i it would bestatistically incorrect to conclude from this that Adam talked too much or something .Grad H: No {disfmarker} no actually , that would be actually statistically correct ,Professor D: Yeah , yeah .Postdoc F: No , no , no.PhD E: Yeah , yeah . Yeah , yeah .Grad H: butPostdoc F: Yeah , that 's right .Professor D: Yeah . Excuse me .Postdoc F: That 's right . And I 'm {pause} you know , I 'm {disfmarker} I don't see a point of singlingpeople out ,Professor D: B I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I rather enjoyed it , but {disfmarker} but thisPostdoc F: now , this is a case where obviously {disfmarker}PhD A: But the numbers speak for themselves .PhD E:He 's {disfmarker} Yeah , yeah , yeah .Postdoc F: Well , {vocalsound} you know , it 's like {disfmarker} I 'm not {disfmarker} I 'm not saying on the tape who did {pause} better or worseGrad H: Yes , that 's right , soyou don't nee OK .Professor D: Sure .Postdoc F: because {pause} I don't think that it 's {disfmarker} I {pause} you know , and {disfmarker} and th here 's a case where of course , human subjects people would say besure that you anonymize the results , {pause} and {disfmarker} and , so , might as well do this .Professor D: Yeah .Grad H: Yeah , when {disfmarker} this is what {disfmarker} This is actually {disfmarker} when Janesent this email first , is what caused me to start thinking about anonymizing the data .Postdoc F: Well , fair enough . Fair enough .Professor D: Yeah .Postdoc F: And actually , {pause} you know , the point is not aboutan individual , it 's the point about {pause} tendencies toward {pause} you know , different styles , different speaker styles .Professor D: Oh sure .Postdoc F: And {pause} it would be , you know {pause} of course ,{pause} there 's also the question of what type of overlap was this , and w what were they , and i and I {disfmarker} and I know that I can distinguish at least three types and , probably more , I mean , the{vocalsound} general {pause} {vocalsound} cultural idea which w uh , the conversation analysts originally started with in the seventies was that we have this {vocalsound} strict model where politeness involves thatyou let the person finish th before you start talking , and {pause} and you know , I mean , {pause} w we know that {disfmarker} {pause} an and they 've loosened up on that too s in the intervening time , that{pause} that that 's {disfmarker} that 's viewed as being {pause} a culturally - relative thing , I mean , {pause} that you have the high - involvement style from the East Coast where people {vocalsound} will overlapoften as an indication of interest in what the other person is saying . AndGrad H: Uh - huh .PhD B: Exactly !Postdoc F: Yeah , exactly !PhD E: YeahPostdoc F: Well , there you go . Fine , that 's alright , that 's OK . And{disfmarker} and , {pause} you know , in contrast , so Deborah {disfmarker} d and also Deborah Tannen 's {pause} thesis she talked about differences of these types , {pause} that they 're just different styles , and it's um {pause} you {disfmarker} you can't impose a model of {disfmarker} {pause} there {disfmarker} of the ideal being no overlaps , and {pause} you know , conversational analysts also agree with that , so it 's{pause} now , universally {pause} a ag agreed with . And {disfmarker} and , als I mean , I can't say universally , but anyway , the people who used to say it was strict , {pause} um {pause} now , uh {pause} don't . Imean they {disfmarker} they {pause} also {pause} {vocalsound} you know , uh {pause} uh , ack acknowledge the influence of {pause} sub of subcultural norms and {pause} cross - cultural norms and things . So ,um Then it beco {pause} though {disfmarker} so {disfmarker} just {disfmarker} just superficially to give {pause} um {pause} a couple ideas of the types of overlaps involved , I have at the bottom several that Inoticed . So , {pause} {vocalsound} uh , there are backchannels , like what Adam just did now and , um {pause} {vocalsound} um , anticipating the end of a question and {pause} simply answering it earlier , andthere are several of those in this {disfmarker} in these data where {disfmarker}PhD B: Mm - hmm .Postdoc F: because we 're {pause} people who 've talked to each other , um {pause} we know {pause} basicallywhat the topic is , what the possibilities are and w and we 've spoken with each other so we know basically what the other person 's style is likely to be and so {vocalsound} and t there are a number of places wheresomeone just answered early . No problem . And places {pause} also which I thought were interesting , where two or more people gave exactly th the same answer in unison {disfmarker} different words of course butyou know , the {disfmarker} basically , {pause} you know everyone 's saying " yes " or {disfmarker} you know , or ev even more sp specific than that . So , uh , the point is that , um {pause} {vocalsound} overlap 'snot necessarily a bad thing and that it would be im {pause} i useful to subdivide these further and see if there are individual differences in styles with respect to the types involved . And that 's all I wanted to say onthat , {pause} unless people have questions .Professor D: Well , of course th the biggest , {pause} um {pause} result here , which is one we 've {disfmarker} {pause} we 've talked about many times and isn't new tous , but which I think would be interesting to show someone who isn't familiar with this {vocalsound} {pause} is just the sheer number of overlaps .Grad H: Yep .Professor D: That {disfmarker} that {disfmarker} Right? {pause} that {disfmarker} that , umPhD E: Yes , yes !Postdoc F: Oh , OK {disfmarker} interesting .PhD E: Yeah .Professor D: here 's a relatively short meeting , it 's a forty {disfmarker} {pause} forty plus minute{pause} {vocalsound} meeting , and not only were there two hundred and fifteen overlaps {vocalsound} {pause} but , {pause} uh I think there 's one {disfmarker} {pause} one minute there where there{disfmarker} where {disfmarker} where there wasn't any overlap ?Grad H: Hundred ninety - seven .Professor D: I mean , it 's {disfmarker} {pause} {vocalsound} uh throughout this thing ?PhD A: It 'd be interesting{disfmarker}Professor D: It 's {disfmarker} You have {disfmarker}Postdoc F: Well , at the bottom , you have the bottom three .PhD E: Yeah .Grad H: S n are {disfmarker}Postdoc F: So four {disfmarker} four minutesall together with none {disfmarker} none .PhD A: But it wProfessor D: Oh , so the bottom three did have s stuff going on ? There was speech ?Postdoc F: Yes , uh - huh . Yeah . But just no overlaps .Professor D: OK , soif {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} this {disfmarker}PhD A: It 'd be interesting to see what the total amount of time is in the overlaps , versus {disfmarker}Postdoc F: Yes , exactly and that 's {disfmarker} that 's whereJose 's pro project comes in .PhD E: Yeah , yeah , I h I have this that infor I have th that information now .PhD G: I was about to ask {disfmarker}PhD A: Yeah .PhD C: Yeah .PhD B: Hmm .Professor D: Oh , about howmuch is it ?PhD E: The {disfmarker} the duration of eh {disfmarker} of each of the overlaps .Professor D: O oh , what 's {disfmarker} what 's the {disfmarker} what 's the average {pause} length ?PhD E: M I{disfmarker} I haven't averaged it now but , uh {pause} I {disfmarker} I will , uh I will do the {disfmarker} the study of the {disfmarker} {pause} with the {disfmarker} with the program with the {disfmarker} uh ,the different , uh {pause} the , nnn , {pause} distribution of the duration of the overlaps .Professor D: You don't know ? OK , you {disfmarker} you don you don't have a feeling for roughly how {pause} much it is ?Yeah .PhD E: mmm , {pause} Because the {disfmarker} the uh , @ @ is @ @ .Professor D: Yeah .PhD E: The duration is , uh {pause} the variation {disfmarker} the variation of the duration is uh , very big on thedatPhD A: Mm - hmm .Postdoc F: I suspect that it will also differ , {pause} depending on the type of overlap {pause} involved .PhD E: but eh {disfmarker}Professor D: Oh , I 'm sure .PhD E: Yeah .Postdoc F: Sobackchannels will be very briefPhD E: Because , on your surface eh {pause} a bit of zone of overlapping with the duration eh , overlapped and another very very short .Postdoc F: and {disfmarker}Professor D: Yeah .Yeah .PhD E: Uh , i probably it 's very difficult to {disfmarker} to {disfmarker} because the {disfmarker} the overlap is , uh on is only the {disfmarker} in the final " S " of the {disfmarker} of the {disfmarker} the finthe {disfmarker} the end {disfmarker} the end word of the , um {pause} previous speaker {vocalsound} with the {disfmarker} the next word of the {disfmarker} the new speaker .PhD A: Mm - hmm .PhD E: Um , Iconsidered {pause} that 's an overlap but it 's very short , it 's an " X " with a {disfmarker} and {disfmarker} the idea is probably , eh {pause} when eh {disfmarker} when eh , we studied th th that zone , eh {pause}{pause} eh , we h we have eh eh {pause} confusion with eh eh noise .PhD A: Mm - hmm .PhD E: With eh {pause} that fricative sounds , but uh {pause} I have new information but I have to {disfmarker} to study.Professor D: Yeah . Yeah , but I {disfmarker} I 'd {disfmarker} {vocalsound} uPhD G: Can I {disfmarker}Professor D: go ahead .Postdoc F: Yeah .PhD G: You split this by minute , um {pause} so if an overlapstraddles {pause} the boundary between two minutes , that counts towards both of those minutes .Postdoc F: Yes . Mm - hmm . Actually , um {vocalsound} um {pause} actually not . Uh , so {pause} le let 's thinkabout the case where {vocalsound} A starts speaking {pause} {vocalsound} and then B overlaps with A , {pause} and then the minute boundary happens . And let 's say that {vocalsound} after that minute boundary ,{vocalsound} um {pause} B is still speaking , {pause} and A overlaps {pause} with B , that would be a new overlap . But otherwise {pause} um , let 's say B {pause} comes to the conclusion of {disfmarker} of thatturn without {pause} anyone overlapping with him or her , in which case there would be no overlap counted in that second minute .PhD G: No , but suppose they both talk simultaneously {vocalsound} {pause} both a{disfmarker} a portion of it is in minute one and another portion of minute two .Postdoc F: OK . In that case , um {pause} my c {pause} the coding that I was using {disfmarker} {vocalsound} since we haven't ,{pause} uh {pause} incorporated Adam 's , uh {pause} coding of overlap yets , the coding of Yeah , " yets " is not a word . Uh {vocalsound} since we haven't incorporated Adam 's method of handling overl overlapsyet {vocalsound} um {pause} then {pause} that would have fallen through the cra cracks . It would be an underestimate of the number of overlaps because , um {pause} I wou I wouldn't be able to pick it up from the


Project Manager: Alright ? Alright . Thank you for coming to this third meeting of the uh uh design group . Um I think we uh made some definite progress at the last one um and come up with some interesting uh uh wsuggestions for our our new remote control . Um I'll again very quickly uh just present some notes of that meeting . Um {vocalsound} the the the problem with existing remote controls , we felt , was that they're uglyum and that people are prepared to pay a premium for something better . Um they've got lots of buttons on them that uh people don't use and find difficult to learn . Um and people lose them . And {vocalsound} We wethought that f for our our new uh uh remote control that everybody will want to rush out and buy , um {vocalsound} that we're {disfmarker} {vocalsound} we should look at speech recognition rather than r rather thanbuttons , and that if we have any buttons they should be very few of them and only for those functions that are actually identified that that people use . That {disfmarker} um {vocalsound} we want to go for uh a longlasting battery that we gua we guarantee for the life of the uh uh the product and a shape that will be instantly recognisable , A_ um as uh a trendy remote control , and and B_ as uh a Real Reaction product . So that wuh when people are uh happy with that , they will they will want to buy uh everything else from us . Uh {disfmarker} {vocalsound} Okay . So again um , I'll {disfmarker} we'll have the three three presentations fromthe the the three of you and then uh we'll we'll make a a final a final uh decision . Um and the the decisions that we need to to make today , finally , are um what energy source we want to use , whether i it is practicalto use uh um a a a long lasting one . And uh I I think our discussion was around the fact that uh if we're gonna go for uh a long lasting power supply , then basically it's uh sealed for life and uh if anybody does manageto run one down , we'll we'll give them another one . And uh it it'll be uh , you know , prominently displayed as part of the th the advertising literature that it's um um , you know , for life , guaranteed for life . Um{vocalsound} now the the the internal chip um {disfmarker} and uh this is where I need uh uh Kate's expert adviceIndustrial Designer: {vocalsound}Project Manager: and given that {vocalsound} th this has to to go tomarket as quickly as possible um d d do we go for a custom designed chip ? Or or do we buy one off the shelf and and programme it ourselves ? Uh I mean I'm I'm I'm n not an expert on these things , but presumably ,there must be loads of 'em already on the market that we can modify .Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}Project Manager: But uh that that's uh that's your area of expertise . And then the uh , you know , the the overalldesign of the case uh is is is Kendra's field and uhUser Interface: {vocalsound}Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}Project Manager: {vocalsound} we we had some discussions last time as as to uh how we might goforward and we'll we'll finalise those uh da today . Um and thi this is all linked in with the the the user interface , whether we p um {vocalsound} go for voice , buttons , or or a bit of both . Uh and then uh , you know , ffor the next meeting Kate will be looking at the the the s the look , feel and design , Kendra the uh ho how the the user actually uses it and and Andrew of course the the product evaluation . And uh Kate and Kendra willbe producing a a model for us to uh to look at .Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}User Interface: {vocalsound}Project Manager: Uh so , if if we can have the the three presentations again please , and uh um p perhapsyou'd like to start uh k .Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Okay . Um {disfmarker}Project Manager: Kate . Oh I'm sorry , oh sorry .Industrial Designer: Um p there we go .Project Manager: {vocalsound}IndustrialDesigner: {vocalsound} 'Kay , I'll just be talking about the components design . And {disfmarker} {vocalsound} Okay , basically I just uh looked at what exactly do remotes do . Uh basically they wait for you to press akey or give a voice command and then this is translated uh into uh light signals which are then seen by the T_V_ . Uh the materials we're gonna need to look at {disfmarker} uh the two big ones are the integratedcircuit chip and the battery and the in integrated circuit chip uh works in conjunction with a a diode transistor or resonator , uh two more resistors and a capacitor and the battery works in conjunction with a resistor anda capacitor . Um . {vocalsound} Uh basically what happens is you'll press a number or give a voice command and this creates a a connection within the the remote that allows the chip {disfmarker} the chip then sensesthis connection and produces a signal in a Morse code format . This signal's sent to the transistor which amplifies it and then sends it on to the light emitting diode and uh {disfmarker} which is then trai changed into ainfrared light which is sent to the T_V_ and sort of seen by the T_V_ and which uh changes the channels . {vocalsound} Um . Oh . {vocalsound} Uh cool . {vocalsound} Uh so as for how we should end up uh using thisin our remote uh t couple of main questions are the buttons . Uh y the fewer buttons you have , I guess the fewer internal connections and internal codes you're gonna need . Um however uh to n not have buttons or touse a voice commands instead of buttons might make these connections more difficult and uh raise the production cost . That's something we should think about . Also we have to work within the company constraints ,and the company has informed me via email that uh they're experts at pushbuttons and that seems to be the most uh cost-effective way of producing it . Um also with battery connections the company has some limitson the batteries we can use , so I was thinking perhaps a combination of solar cells with a back-up basic battery and somehow between the combination of that two we might be able to come up with something that uhwill last the the lifetime or the five to ten years and we could still keep that original idea . {vocalsound} Um we also need to look at the chips , uh v custom-designed versus off the shelf , and the custom-designed willgive us much more flexibility and enable us to incorporate the voice function that we all uh seem to have agreed upon . Um , however that's gonna cost more , but uh the off the shelf is gonna be uh cheaper and it'sgonna be {disfmarker} allow us to produce it quicker and get out there faster , but it's going to be less flexible with the features , especially things like uh voice activation , which haven't really been used much onremotes , so there's not really chips out there that would be easy to uh to convert ,Project Manager: {vocalsound} Okay ,Industrial Designer: so if we were uh definitely gonna go with the the voice option we'd probablyhave to design um our own chip . {vocalsound} And that pretty much sums it up .Project Manager: so how um {disfmarker} sorry , can you uh just put that one back up again , please ? Um .Industrial Designer: Mm .Oh yep , sorry . {vocalsound} Yep .Project Manager: Uh d d d {vocalsound} okay , I mean uh inevitably a b a custom design chip is gonna be more expensive . Do we do we know uh by how much ?Industrial Designer:Mm . {vocalsound} Um I don't actually have any price information , no . {vocalsound}Project Manager: And and do we know how long it'll take to uh develop a a custom chip .Industrial Designer: Um it {disfmarker} alot longer than an off the shelf chip . Oh w yeah , we did {disfmarker} the the problem is the the the voice technology is not really highly developed ,Project Manager: Right ,Industrial Designer: it's sort of still still in anex experimental form ,Project Manager: okay .Industrial Designer: uh so it would uh {disfmarker} it's hard to predict the time . {vocalsound}Project Manager: Right , I think we need to make a a decision here . Uhgiven that the company wants this on the market quickly and cheaply ,Industrial Designer: Mm .Project Manager: that would appear to uh effectively constrain us to an existing chip and thus therefore conventionalbutton technology . Um uh now before we go round everybody else , does anybody um h have any have anyti ha anything to say about that ?User Interface: I {disfmarker} I just have a question about that . Um does itmake a difference if there are just a few commands , for example if you um can pre-programme in like numbers one through ten and pre-programme say , you know , nine channels and then just use the voicerecognition to say channel one and then you've programmed in say B_B_C_ four as your channel one , as your favourite , it's like to have a certain number of favourites umIndustrial Designer: W just to to incorporatethe voice activation in it is is sorta the trick .User Interface: and that wIndustrial Designer: Once you've got the whole voice chip in there , then it's pretty much the the world {disfmarker} the the sky is your limit ,UserInterface: Okay . Then it doesn't matter . Okay .Industrial Designer: but to actually {disfmarker} the the big step is to actually get the voice activation chips in there and working .User Interface: Okay .Project Manager:Cause uh I {vocalsound} must say I find it slightly surprising given that , you know , mobile phones incorporate voice activated dialling . So uh um I meanUser Interface: Yeah .Project Manager: I d d for slightlydifferent {disfmarker} well no , I mean , it's if you you {disfmarker} speak somebody's name and it'll dial the number for you , so uh bu I mean the this this information is from {disfmarker} is {disfmarker} this is theinternal company information , is it ?Industrial Designer: Uh bits of it , yeah .Project Manager: So uh {disfmarker}User Interface: Of course mobile phones do tend to be more expensive ,Industrial Designer: Yes , aswell .Project Manager: {vocalsound}User Interface: you know , hundred and fifty pounds or something . As opposed to the twenty Euros , twenty five Euros .Project Manager: Yeah , mm true , again but if it's withoutany without any uh p price informations that's uh difficult to uhIndustrial Designer: {vocalsound}Project Manager: uh decide .User Interface: Yeah .Marketing: {vocalsound} Also lots of mobile phones have got a lot oftechnology in them , not just that , so .Industrial Designer: Mm .Project Manager: Yeah , that's that's right . It's like {disfmarker} it's it's {disfmarker} you can't {disfmarker} 'cause mobile phones are expensive , youcan't say it's the voice recognition bit that is .User Interface: {vocalsound} Yeah .Project Manager: But we don't know . Um . {vocalsound} I mean uh I su i I mean if {disfmarker} given that the um the technology isnot well developed and and given that it's it's never been done before , um th th the double risk , uh perhaps we ought to uh stick to uh to buttons , since the last thing we want to do is present a product that doesn'twork . Um . Thoughts ?User Interface: Well , another thought I {disfmarker}Marketing: Would {disfmarker}User Interface: oh , sorry , go ahead .Marketing: Oh I was just gonna say mayb maybe it sh like um{disfmarker} maybe we can like cut corners somewhere else to bring in over cost .Project Manager: {vocalsound} I mean do w do we think that the voice technology is fundamental to the project ?Industrial Designer:Uh it's fundament well I mean I guess it it's something we've discussed uh since the the sort of the beginning , so I th I think in in our in our minds it's it's fundamental , but I don't know that the uh the upper echelonsof the company would necessarily agree with that , so I think you have to {disfmarker}Project Manager: I mean I think we {disfmarker} {gap}User Interface: Oh yeah .Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}ProjectManager: Mm .Industrial Designer: Hm .User Interface: {gap} Okay .Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}User Interface: Well , I kinda think if we're gonna have the voice recognition for part of it , then maybe we shouldhave it for the whole thing .Project Manager: Yeah , I I I I I think that's uh {disfmarker}Industrial Designer: Mm .User Interface: And we've been talking about it the whole time .Project Manager: Yeah , yeah .IndustrialDesigner: Mm , mm .User Interface: Anyway , I'm I'm incli kinda inclined to say that we should just go for it .Project Manager: Mm , right , okay .Industrial Designer: Mm .Marketing: Uh yeah , {gap} it's the secondmost important aspect to users that the device should be technologically innovative .Project Manager: {gap}User Interface: Yeah .Marketing: From uh my presentation show , so .Project Manager: Yeah , it should be{disfmarker}Marketing: Uh technologically innovative .Project Manager: Right , okay , so .Industrial Designer: No ,Project Manager: Fine . Okay .Industrial Designer: that sounds good . Mm .Project Manager: I it willhave voice recognition um uhIndustrial Designer: Mm . Cool .User Interface: Okay .Project Manager: if if that means uh if that means we can't afford buttons but I mean b b {vocalsound} {disfmarker}IndustrialDesigner: {vocalsound} Um {disfmarker}Project Manager: second question , do we need the five buttons for channel change , up down , {vocalsound} volume up down and on off , just as a a backup or just so thatpeople can uh j j just sit there pressing buttons ?User Interface: Yeah .Industrial Designer: Yeah , I I would say we do , yeah .User Interface: I think so .Project Manager: Right . Okay . Sorry , d did you want to sayanything ? No ?Industrial Designer: Uh nope ,Project Manager: Okay .Industrial Designer: that was it , that was it .Project Manager: Shall we move rapidly on to uh Kendra ?Industrial Designer: Okay .User Interface:Okay .Project Manager: Uh um ra rapidly move the cable over .User Interface: {vocalsound} Let's see .Project Manager: Mm . Oh good .User Interface: Oh . Yes . Is it gonna work ?Project Manager: Mm yeah ,IndustrialDesigner: Yeah , it's thinking about it .Project Manager: it'll get there . Yep .User Interface: Okay . Okay ,Industrial Designer: Yeah .User Interface: so I did some research on the internet and um {vocalsound} what{vocalsound} {disfmarker} you know , the interf user interface are just aspects that are seen by users , um commands and mechanisms for the operation , and there're just kind of a variety of choices . Um findings , soa lot of times they tend to look clutteredProject Manager: Mm-hmm .User Interface: and these were just a couple examples of um different kinds that are a little bit more unusual .Project Manager: Mm , yeah .UserInterface: There're some special ones available , like this one right here ,Project Manager: Uh-huh .User Interface: which is marketed towards children , um different designs ,Project Manager: Alright .User Interface:and one of the things that n we need to watch out for is a V_ in volume because people some {vocalsound} Bring a little picture of what I thought ours could look like {vocalsound} .Industrial Designer:{vocalsound}User Interface: So just kind of minimise the clutter ,Project Manager: Mm-hmm .User Interface: avoid too many buttons and also um {vocalsound} one of the things that people have used is a slide button, like you have on a mouse , that possibly we could use that on the sides for volume , for example , have the slide button on the side ,Marketing: Mm .User Interface: and then you can pre-programme the channels , thevoice recognition and then the voice response sample locator .Project Manager: {vocalsound} Mm yeah . Sorry y y yeah , {vocalsound} if I can interrupt you . Well d {vocalsound} p 'kay , do you wanna say anythingabout um slide controls ?Industrial Designer: Mm .Project Manager: I mean I think the reason everybody uses pushbuttons is that they're they're si simple , cheap and reliable .Industrial Designer: Uh {disfmarker}{vocalsound} Uh I think they're they're about the same cost really . I I mean , I think it's just sort of {disfmarker} the the {vocalsound} {disfmarker} there's a lot of slide buttons out there . I think it's pretty much thesame sort of connection . Mm yeah . {vocalsound}Project Manager: Okay , fair enough , fine .User Interface: Just because I n for example if I'm using a mouse I like to be able to slide it up and downIndustrialDesigner: Mm .User Interface: so I thought it might be good for volume to just be able to kind of roll it and then have the up and downProject Manager: Yeah . Good , good .User Interface: and then the{disfmarker}Project Manager: Yeah .User Interface: this is my great little drawing .Project Manager: So three three {disfmarker} there's three buttons on a slider .Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}Project Manager:Three buttons , channel up channel up down and {disfmarker}User Interface: Y yes , yes .Marketing: Well , if you g if you if you got a channel up down , we can have a slider in that as well . Because if it {disfmarker} ifyou noUser Interface: {gap}Marketing: if you notice on the thing it it kind of like has got kind of {disfmarker} if you you know it s kind of like sticks , if you know what I mean , up like one unit , if you see what I mean.Industrial Designer: Mm .User Interface: Yeah .Marketing: So it kinda goes up one , then y like you can keep rolling it up , but it's like like like like a cog or something .Project Manager: Uh-huh .Marketing: So youkinda take it up one at a time .Project Manager: Okay . Um {disfmarker}User Interface: The only advantage I was thinking of to having the buttons , like the buttons on one side for the channel , and then the slider isthat if you're just holding in your hand , and you pick it up , it's easy to n s know , okay , this is just the volume and this is the channel .Marketing: DProject Manager: Mm-hmm .Marketing: {vocalsound} Oh .ProjectManager: This one on the one side and one {disfmarker}Marketing: {vocalsound} Uh you could you could {vocalsound} as l as like a mouse you could {disfmarker}Project Manager: yeah . Okay .Industrial Designer: Yeyeah , 'cause I've definitely picked up remotes and like meant to change the channel and turn the volume , or vice versa ,Project Manager: Yeah .User Interface: Yeah .Project Manager: Yeah .Industrial Designer: so it'dbe kinda good to have them be {disfmarker} feel completely different . You'd know what you were fiddling with .Project Manager: Yeah ,Industrial Designer: Yeah .Project Manager: or {disfmarker} yeah uh th th the{disfmarker} I mean thi this is what the {disfmarker}User Interface: That was {disfmarker}Marketing: Yeah , like the shape of it almost like a mouse , with a {disfmarker}Project Manager: we have to come up with isthe the actual shape that people can ins instantly pick it up and and know know uh know what it's going to do .Industrial Designer: Mm .User Interface: Yeah .Project Manager: Okay , so we we're looking at sliders forboth a {disfmarker} uh volume and channel changeUser Interface: Um wellProject Manager: of one sort .User Interface: I was thinking kind of just for the volume ,Project Manager: Just for the volume , uh .IndustrialDesigner: Mm .User Interface: but what what do you guys think ?Marketing: Dep I dunno if it {disfmarker}User Interface: We could {disfmarker}Marketing: depending on the final shape of it , 'cause you could havelike , I dunno , {gap} it looks like you can c control the volume with your thumb ,User Interface: {vocalsound} Yeah , yeah .Marketing: and then you could control the buttons with your fingers .Project Manager: Fingers,Industrial Designer: Yeah ,Project Manager: yeah .Industrial Designer: 'cause if {disfmarker} yeah , in that kinda position the fingers would be better for pressing and the {disfmarker} that for rolling ,Project Manager:It {disfmarker} yeah , I mean it it it seems to me that uh it uh it al also has the advantage that it it {disfmarker} the two are clearly different ,User Interface: BIndustrial Designer: just the way it would{disfmarker}User Interface: Yeah .Industrial Designer: Mm yeah , yeah , yeah .User Interface: Yeah .Project Manager: um that there's no no possibility of uh confusing the two .Marketing: Oh yeah , yeah .ProjectManager: So okay . Right so uhUser Interface: I'm just gonna pass this along .Project Manager: that's {disfmarker} sorry is that that all you want to say at the moUser Interface: Yes .Project Manager: okay , fine.Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}User Interface: Yeah . {vocalsound}Marketing: {vocalsound}Project Manager: Mm right .Marketing: {gap}Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}Marketing: Here we go .Project Manager:Right .Marketing: {vocalsound} Uh yeah , this is my report on trend watching .Project Manager: Mm-hmm .Marketing: The data's come off internet uh from executive summary for us on the top three things wanted bythe consumer . And we got reports from Paris , Milan on new fashions .Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}Marketing: And uh the most important aspect is the l the look {disfmarker} it has to look fancy , look andfeelProject Manager: Mm-hmm .Marketing: uh instead of the current functional look and feel . This is a st well I was gonna say yeah twice as important as the second aspect ,Project Manager: Mm .Marketing: which is


Lynne Neagle AM: Good morning, everyone. Welcome to the Children, Young People and Education Committee this morning. I've received apologies for absence from Siân Gwenllian, and I'm very pleased to welcomeHelen Mary Jones, who is substituting for Siân today. Can I ask whether Members want to declare any interests, please? Can I just, then, place on record that I have got a son who was about to do A-levels, so isaffected by the exam decision? We'll move on, then, to our substantive item today, which is an evidence session with the Welsh Government around the impact of the coronavirus pandemic on education in Wales. I'mvery pleased to welcome Kirsty Williams, Minister for Education; Steve Davies, who is director of the education directorate; Huw Morris, who is the group director, skills, higher education and lifelong learning; and RobOrford, who is the chief scientific adviser for health. Thank you all for coming. We know that this is a really difficult and pressurised time for everyone, and we appreciate your attendance. Minister, I understand youwanted to make an opening statement today.Kirsty Williams AM: Yes, if that's okay, Chair. As you know, it's not usually my practice to do that, but I think it is important today. COVID-19 coronavirus is one of the mostsignificant issues that the Welsh Government and the people of Wales have dealt with in recent times. Dealing with the impacts of this pandemic is extremely challenging. Things are changing on an hourly basis, and wehave to make decisions quickly to ensure public safety. But I would like to assure you that our aim, and my aim, and my main concern as the education Minister is to protect all staff and pupils in our schools and othereducational settings. But we also have a duty to ensure continuing and continuity of education. Public health is clearly the priority here, but that does not change our belief that no child should miss out on any education,unless absolutely necessary. So, the decision to close all schools from tomorrow for statutory education provision was not taken lightly, but I believe it was necessary, given the advice and recommendations that we hadreceived from a public health perspective and the situation that was developing on the ground. From next week, schools will have a new purpose. They will help support those most in need, including people involved inthe immediate response to the coronavirus outbreak, and I'm working with my colleagues in the Cabinet, with Government officials and our partners in local government to develop and finalise these plans. The keyareas that we're looking at are supporting and safeguarding the vulnerable and ensuring continuity of learning. This includes all of those who benefit from free school meals and children with additional learning needs. Ican confirm that all maintained schools in Wales already have access to a range of digital tools that can support distance learning through the world-class Hwb digital learning platform, including virtual classrooms andvideo-conferencing facilities. A guide on what tools are available and how schools can use them has been developed and is being promoted widely. Yesterday, I announced that, whilst there are no easy choices, we haveagreed that the best way forward is not to proceed with the summer exam series. Learners due to sit these exams will be awarded a fair grade to recognise their work, drawing on a range of information that is available,and I will announce further details shortly, but I felt it necessary to give early certainty to students and to staff. I would like to put on record my thanks to everyone working in education settings for the hard work thatthey have put in over the last few months in dealing with the virus and ensuring that pupils have been able to continue to learn. We need to continue to do this work together, as we face the continuing challenges posedby the coronavirus. Diolch yn fawr.Lynne Neagle AM: Thank you very much, Minister, for that statement. We'll go to questions from Members now, and I've got some questions from Dawn Bowden.Dawn Bowden AM:Thank you, Chair. Can I thank you, Kirsty, for your statement and the really difficult decisions that you've been having to make? You've already indicated in your statement this morning that these decisions are nottaken lightly, and we understand that that is the case across Government. So, thank you for what you've been doing. You've outlined a little bit further there in your statement to us this morning about the new purpose.I take from what you're saying that you haven't really developed that yet in terms of exactly what that is going to look like. You've talked about the children of key workers, free school meals, additional learning needs.Is there anything else you can tell us about that at the moment and how you might staff the schools in those particular areas?Kirsty Williams AM: Thank you, Dawn. So, you're absolutely right, our priority now is tooperationalise, with colleagues in local government and schools, a practical response. And I have to say, we're working to timescales that I would have hoped to have avoided, but given the fact that we're having tomake these decisions quite quickly, I hope that you will understand that perhaps where we start on Monday might change when we have more time and more opportunities to develop programmes going forward. Stevewill be able to give you more details of the practical work that has already been going on, but our expectation will be that schools will be playing an important part in providing safe and secure places for children of thoseon the front-line response to dealing with the coronavirus to attend, and work is already under way with local authorities and individual schools on what that will look like for the emergency situation on Monday. Ourother priority is indeed free school meals, and, again, where we eventually end up might be a different place to where we are on Monday. Again, we're responding to the emergency situation that there will be familiesthat were expecting a free school meal on Monday, and, again, individual schools and local authorities are developing those plans at pace to be able to provide an emergency response as we work out a longer term planto deal with the situation. The same thing also goes for additional learning needs, and attending to the needs of that particular group of learners. So, those conversations began a few days ago. I had the opportunity tomeet with the First Minister and Andrew Morgan, the leader of the Welsh Local Government Association, yesterday to talk about what local government could do, and what they were already doing. Those plans in someplaces are already quite developed, and are now working at pace, but I hope you will understand that where we start on Monday is the emergency response, and that work will develop as we go forward. But, Steve,perhaps you could—? Because Steve was the one making all those phone calls and doing the practical operational stuff, rather than me. Steve.Steve Davies: In short, the new purpose is to meet the needs of particulargroups of children and young people. In some cases, some of the response to supporting free school meals, in the short term in particular, we may use the schools as part of that, and I'm certain that will happen insome cases. The second area is looking at how we support the children of key workers. Now, there is still work to be done on identifying exactly the categories of key workers, but I think it's really encouraging that inmy discussions yesterday—I spoke with all 22 directors of education, and the examples we're picking up in their work with schools is they're already ahead of the curve in working with schools. So, schools haveidentified the number of children with health workers. It will grow, and we will need to look at that range. Then, the third area is vulnerable children. They're vulnerable sometimes in terms of education other than atschool, vulnerable in terms of mental health, and for those children, as well as having an experience that we want to be planned, some have compared it to a snow day, particularly on Monday, when you're puttingsomething together in the short term, but it will not be a formal curriculum that those children would normally go through. So, the range of activities—some will be focused on educational activities, some will be cultural,some will be sporting, and that plan will be developed on the basis of the age range of children, which in some cases may go from extremely young children up to those at the age of 16 in our all-through schools, butthere will be a planned set of activities to cater for those children. What we are doing currently—I have staff back at Cathays Park who are in touch and working with directors of education to ensure that schools over thenext two days will have been able to identify, at least at the earlier stage, in terms of health workers, the type and numbers of people. There are already schools who have informed us, and local authorities, of theirplans for these activities to be starting next week, which is quite amazing, actually, given where we are. But we are expecting, and we're writing to schools today, that during the course of next week, headteachers to bein schools, and with their staff, taking into consideration the health guidance as to which staff should or should not be in, and in that period from next Monday through the two-week period, to Easter, we expect staff tobe both planning for delivery post Easter, but also, as I said, building on and reflecting the good practice that's already in place for schools that have engaged in activities, and I'm sure a number of them will be invitingand enabling those children to come in on Monday. So, Monday will be a challenge for some, and not all will be delivering it, but we will be working so that we can get as much as possible delivered for those groups overthe next two weeks, and particularly to have resilient programmes post Easter for the groups of children in those three categories that I said.Dawn Bowden AM: Those that have been identified. Can I just clarify onething? One of the identified vulnerable groups would clearly be children on the at-risk register. They would be included.Steve Davies: Yes, definitely. Vulnerable children, yes.Kirsty Williams AM: In our discussions, wehave asked local government to be working with the social services departments and individual schools to identify those children who may be in that situation. We know that, for some children, being at school is part oftheir safeguarding arrangements, and obviously we will need to be able to respond to those needs.Steve Davies: I wrote specifically yesterday to all directors of education to be assured that, for those children, theregister is up to date and the plans are in place. I'm working with Albert Heaney my colleague, the director for social services, who is meeting with the 22 directors of social services today to look to ensure that we arejoined up in ensuring none of these children fall through the gap.Lynne Neagle AM: Okay. I've got a supplementary from Hefin, and then Suzy.Hefin David AM: A very quick and simple question: how are you going tocommunicate this to parents? There's a bigger picture and it's changing all the time, as you said. The Welsh Government have a route to communication. The most helpful thing I've seen is that Public Health Wales havea single website with information regarding the wider issue of the virus. How will this then be cascaded to schools, because there's obviously a time lag? So, have you considered how this is going to be communicateddirectly to parents?Kirsty Williams AM: We're using all of our platforms of communication to get these messages across. So, we're using the more informal methods of communication, but are relying on a systematicapproach via individual directors and through to individual schools. Welsh Government already has a dedicated website page with all of the relevant information about coronavirus. We're looking, as quickly as we can, tohave a frequently asked education questions page that we can update. Understandably, people are communicating to us on Twitter asking questions. It is impossible for the communications team here to be able torespond individually to every single person that is sending Facebook messages and sending tweets, so the best way we can do that is to collate the types of questions people are asking and then to be able to have afrequently updated question and answer page to try to respond to that. With regard to parents, for instance, we're aware of schools that have already sent a questionnaire out last night to parents saying, 'Do youconsider yourself to be a key worker? Do you work in the NHS? Please let us know by tomorrow so we can put arrangements in place for your children.' So, schools are already taking the initiative and having thoseconversations with parents about what their needs will be. And, as I said, Hefin, will it be perfect on Monday? No. It won't be perfect by Monday, because we're working to such constrained timescales. But we willcontinue to build that resilience. We also have to think about systems that look at what might the epidemic do and have systems of resilience that may work next week, given the situation we find ourselves in withpublic health advice at the moment. But that public health advice may change. Therefore, have we got a system that will be resilient in those circumstances? These are some of the challenges that we're having tograpple with. So, as I said, what happens on Monday might look very different to where we are if schools are still off in May. So, I hope people will understand that we are working in those kinds of scenarios.LynneNeagle AM: Suzy, you had a supplementary.Suzy Davies AM: Yes, just on this question of vulnerable children, I'm just wondering how much discretion teachers are going to have in including individual children who maynot be obviously under social services' care or on a risk register or whatever. Teachers know their pupils and, very sensitively, they could include people who may not be obviously in need.Kirsty Williams AM: We wouldabsolutely respect the professional judgment of individual headteachers to be able to have those conversations with their directors. As you said, quite rightly, they are the individuals who know their children best andknow which children, perhaps, will need this extra support. We will put no constraints on those teachers trying to do that work.Suzy Davies AM: Okay. The second part of my question is: there were going to be Easterholidays anyway, weren't there? What was going to happen about free-school-meal children during that period? Has that gone out of the window now, the normal holiday provision for children? Because that's not therenormally, is it, except in separate—Kirsty Williams AM: We do find ourselves in a strange situation. My understanding is what we're trying to work to is that we would have ongoing provision and not to make somestrange, 'You get this for two weeks, then you don't get it for two weeks, and then you're back in.' My understanding is, in England, that is what they're going to do. We're trying to create a system where it will beseamless and it will not necessarily matter that two of those weeks were formally holidays. It won't matter to those nurses and doctors who will need to be in work during those weeks. We're trying to create a systemthat will run uniformly. That's our policy goal at the moment.Lynne Neagle AM: Helen Mary.Helen Mary Jones AM: Just briefly, building on Suzy's question, one particular group of children and young people that I hopewill be eligible to be included in the potentially vulnerable category is young carers. For some of them, they may not be able to come into school because the people they're caring for may have to be excluded because oftheir conditions. But I think that, for other young carers, coming to school is an absolute lifeline, because they're working at home. So, I don't know if it's appropriate for you to specifically mention those in discussionswith local authorities, but it's a group of young people who, again, may not be vulnerable in other ways, but because of their caring responsibilities they may need school. And the other group—and this, I suppose, goesback to Suzy's point about teachers knowing their young people—is the children who may be living in situations where they're at risk of witnessing domestic abuse. Again, these may very well not be children who are inany formal contact with social services, but being at home may be really not a good place for them to be. So, again, I'd put in an appeal for that to be something that perhaps can be raised with schools. If a teacher isworried about what a child's circumstances are like at home, whether they can be, as you said, Kirsty, included as one of the—. They may not be formally identified, but if the teacher knows that they're at risk, or thereis an instinct that they're at risk, they might be able to be included in children who are allowed to take advantage of this special provision you're making at this difficult time.Kirsty Williams AM: We will certainly raisethose issues. We have to do that in the context of what is deliverable, and we also have to do that in the context of the public health advice that we are receiving as well. One of the reasons why schools are closing is tohelp manage this disease. We know that the ability for school closures to make a contribution to that diminishes if we have significant children in school still. So, we will take these issues into consideration, butremembering this is part of an epidemic mitigation plan. Rob is the expert on that, not me.Rob Orford: Yes, absolutely. This is a rapidly-evolving problem and the scale is something that we haven't seen in 100 years,and so we're having to evolve and iterate things as we go. Next week, I think, will look different to this week. So, it kind of is what it is. We've all got a role to play, and schools certainly have a significant role to play inbreaking those chains of transmission. Areas that we're worried about are displacement activities. If we close the schools, then people collect at others' houses. We need to send a really clear message that you're allpart of the solution, and the things that you do by distancing yourselves from your friends and your family are really important for us to get on top of this outbreak. The more that we can do that, the easier it will bewhen we go forward.Helen Mary Jones AM: I'm sure that that's true, but I'm sure that we wouldn't be wanting a child who's in a very pressured environment with perhaps a very difficult relationship between mum anddad—. It may be very important for those children to be out of that for some of the time. Hopefully, we're talking about relatively small numbers, but I just—.Kirsty Williams AM: We will look at vulnerability in a holisticway.Lynne Neagle AM: Janet, you had a supplementary.Janet Finch-Saunders AM: Thank you, Chair, and good morning, Minister, and your team. Can I just put on record my thanks for all that you're having to endureat this moment? I think it's fair to say you have the support of Assembly Members and, indeed, our communities. Now, the question I have: if Cylch Meithrin have to close, where will they get money from to pay theirstaff? Because, currently, thankfully, there's support for businesses.Lynne Neagle AM: Janet, we're not doing Cylch Meithrin at the moment; we are sticking with schools, as we discussed in advance. Dawn.DawnBowden AM: Can I just get some clarity, Steve, around what you were saying in terms of next week? Because I think the practical applications of this—and I understand that you don't know all of this yet, I understandthat—the practical applications are what is coming to us, obviously, with constituents saying, 'Well, what's going to happen to that?' Just so that I can be clear, are you saying that, at this stage, every headteacher willbe in school on Monday, as will all their staff?Steve Davies: Within the scope of the guidance in terms of their health, the expectation—and this will be conveyed in letters by the Minister today, to be made clear—is thatthey are closing for the majority of pupils, but our expectation within the guidance is that the headteacher with their staff will be coming in; for some to start the delivery of what we just described, but that will probablybe small numbers, but more importantly to plan to ensure that, after the formal Easter period, which is school holidays, the schools are geared to cater for the range of pupils that we've been discussing.Dawn BowdenAM: So, would you anticipate—again, I know this is all a bit 'if and when', and it depends on the changing nature of the advice, but from what you're saying, I think we can probably anticipate that, as we go forward,there will probably be fewer schools opening and operable—that we may be moving those children on to fewer sites. Would that possibly—?Kirsty Williams AM: That is a potential. So, we already know that one of ourlocal authorities already has identified a strategic pattern of schools that they will want to operate in this way. That local authority has already chosen those locations, and is already having communications with how


Marketing: Right first time this time . Nu There we go . It's not that complicated , but I get it wrong every time . {vocalsound}Industrial Designer: Okay so we are just waiting for Matthew {gap} .Marketing: ForMatthew , yep .Project Manager: Mm . Uh {disfmarker} So I suggest we start the meeting uh without Matthew uhMarketing: Mm-hmm .Industrial Designer: Mm 'kay .Project Manager: he's uh obviously late for somereason . {vocalsound} Good . Um . Today uh we will uh talk about uh conceptual design . I hope uh you both did some uh some work uh concerning a uh conceptual design .Marketing: Mm-hmm .Project Manager: Umthis will be the uh agenda for the meeting uh {gap} . Uh I will take some minutes uh again .Marketing: Mm-hmm .Project Manager: Um we will have the presentations of y of you different team members ,Marketing:Yep .Industrial Designer: Yep .Project Manager: and then try to come to decisions uh about the concepts uh you have presented . So and that uh will uh {disfmarker}Industrial Designer: Mm-hmm .Project Manager: wehave some uh forty minutes uh to complete this uh .Marketing: Mm-hmm .Project Manager: So um who has the fir do you ha Anna do you have your presentation ready ?Marketing: I have a presentation , I'm justmaking this {disfmarker}Industrial Designer: Yeah I think {disfmarker} {vocalsound} yeah the {disfmarker} Matthew it is it's important that Matthew yeah is hereProject Manager: Okay . AhIndustrial Designer:because it's really a a team uh project with a teamProject Manager: there is Matthew .Industrial Designer: and if someone is not here then we cannot {disfmarker}User Interface: Sorry .Industrial Designer: but it's okay{vocalsound} it's good . {vocalsound}Marketing: Okay I'll just email you this file , my presentation .Project Manager: So . Good . Do {gap} presentation ready ?Marketing: Mm-hmm I'm just emailing it to you .ProjectManager: Oh okay .Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}User Interface: So {disfmarker}Project Manager: So did you manage uh {disfmarker}User Interface: Yeah I sent you the slides , you didn't see them ?ProjectManager: Oh yes I see him , good yes .User Interface: Okay . {gap} .Project Manager: No .User Interface: {vocalsound} So {disfmarker} {vocalsound} 'Kay .Marketing: Okay it should've gone through to you .UserInterface: {vocalsound}Project Manager: Okay mm yes I have it .User Interface: {vocalsound}Marketing: Mm-hmm . Okay so this is just a presentation on uh the trends that we're gonna use to make the product standout from the rest of the products out there at the moment . Um can I just put this on ? So we have to work out a way {disfmarker} what we can do with our product to make it stand out and make it so people wannabuy it . Um . This is {disfmarker} to do this I will not remove my microphone . {vocalsound} We basically used um some focus group surveys which I went through with you last time , the main results of that , and umsome research on the current design um and fashion trends that are out there at the moment um ,Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}Marketing: and as part of this {disfmarker} The important aspects that came outwere things that we've already discussed really . The most important by far was the look and feel of it . It needs to be something that's very different from everything else out there . It needs to stand out {vocalsound}. It needs to be not functional like the rest of the things out there at the moment . Most people find remote controls boring at the moment , we need to have something that looks interesting , that looks exciting , thatwill stand out . People will wanna buy it . Um {disfmarker} That was twice as i important as the next item on here which is that it has to be technologically innovative {disfmarker} has to have something else , apartfrom just the look of it . People have to then think about it and say {gap} got something there that I want . That's a really cool feature , and it has to make them wanna buy it again . Third on the list , and againinnovative was twice as important as this last um aspect , it has to be easy to use . So they have to be able to {disfmarker} be able to look at it and have some intuitive idea of how to use it um . Drawing on the fashiontrends at the moment , uh fruit and vegetables um . This is basically talking about just the the feel of it , so probably not the smell of it , but the bright colours , um eye-catching , really bold designs , and a spongy feel.User Interface: {vocalsound}Project Manager: Mm .Industrial Designer: Mm-hmm .Project Manager: Mm .Marketing: Um I had a talk to the design people about this , but having a remote that's tactile , that feelsdifferent , that would be really cool . That would make it stand out . Um .Project Manager: Hmm .Industrial Designer: So can you repeat and be more precise about what you just said ?Project Manager: Spongy feel?Industrial Designer: Uh about the feeling yeah uh yoMarketing: WellUser Interface: {vocalsound} You can {disfmarker}Marketing: ma make it not necessar sp spongy is the current thing . Spongy is the currenttexture , but basically there are no reports no remotes at the moment which are spongy or tactile at all , so if we make it like maybe furry or soft or something , that'll be something that sets it apart ,IndustrialDesigner: Okay .Project Manager: Mm .Marketing: rather than just bare plastic which they all are at the moment .Industrial Designer: Yeah .Project Manager: Okay .Marketing: So as far as the design goes , the verymost important aspect was the design , to the customers . So going with the fruit and vegetable idea , we've got the bright colours , so makes it stand out , the oranges and the the bright yellows and the florescentcolours , part of the fruit and vegetables um . Going back to the idea of taking inspiration from mobile phones , they've all got those {disfmarker} a lot of them have the changeable covers , so they can choose whatcolour the outside is . That's one way of looking at it um . Textured feel we just talked about . Maybe it's another way of doing that .Project Manager: Mm-hmm .Marketing: So if it's part of the the changeable coversthen may maybe they can choose a different texture , a spongy one or a soft one or something like that . So they can choose it li as they want to to maybe {disfmarker} to fit in with their decor in their living room , orjust what they like , their sports team or whatever .Industrial Designer: Yeah that's a very good idea , yeah . Yeah .Marketing: Um and yeah , still taking the inspiration from the mobile phone design so functionality ,the way the mobile phones work , the way the keypad looks . Also just the way that a lot of industrial design is going into mobile phones at the moment . They're big selling items . People put a lot of thought into that sowe can leverage off that , and we can start using some of their ideas . Um back to technological in in innovation , not quite as important , but still a big issue . Um we talked about having a way of finding a remotecontrol if it's been lost , uh that's one thing we could look at . There are other aspects like L_C_D_ screens and speech recognition which weren't {disfmarker} I don't think , in my personal opinion , gonna be worth theextra expense and the extra effort that will go into them . I think we're better doing something basic like thisIndustrial Designer: Mm-hmm .Marketing: which is very important and very {disfmarker} will be a really coolfeature to put in . And {disfmarker} {gap} use . I had no real specific ideas for this , maybe we just , the basic idea of having your core functions big and at the top maybe , by themselves ,Project Manager: Mm . YeswellMarketing: and then {disfmarker}Project Manager: maybe Matthew can can give some more information on the {disfmarker}Marketing: yeahUser Interface: Yeah .Marketing: {disfmarker} and then th th the finerdetails of buttons you don't use as much either hidden away or completely separate .Project Manager: Mm .Marketing: Yep {vocalsound} and that's the presentation .User Interface: Voila .Project Manager: Okay good ,that's very clear .User Interface: Yeah .Industrial Designer: Yeah very clear .Project Manager: 'Kay . Um . Uh {disfmarker}Marketing: So does anyone have any comments or ideas on that ? I think you{disfmarker}Project Manager: Maybe we yes well we maybe {vocalsound} can decide later on um {vocalsound} the l the the look and feel of uh I've {disfmarker} it was a good idea maybe to to {disfmarker}IndustrialDesigner: To let the people choose , {gap} you mean ?Project Manager: Yes the the the there are changeable covers ,Industrial Designer: Yeah .Project Manager: but on the other hand I I don't know whether mysuperiors would be so glad with it because {vocalsound} you have to introduce a complete uh uh new l line of uh of suppliesMarketing: Hmm .Project Manager: uh it would be uh very complicated uh organisational{disfmarker}Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}Marketing: Well we're selling so many units of this . This is gonna be a mass marketed product , we can afford to have two or three different designs at least .ProjectManager: Hmm . Mm-hmm .Industrial Designer: Yeah a range of uh yeah , a set of three , four different aspects .Marketing: Mm mm .Project Manager: Yes . Mm-hmm .Industrial Designer: Sure that fits the{vocalsound} {disfmarker}Project Manager: Yes {gap} and of course it will be a we we get a {disfmarker} if it works we can get uh after-salesMarketing: Mm .Project Manager: I mean that would {gap} would be verygood I mean those covers could go for for three , five Euro {vocalsound} .Industrial Designer: Yeah .Marketing: Mm .Project Manager: That's a very good idea um {disfmarker} And then uh maybe uh we can go a thMatthew's presentation becauseUser Interface: YeahMarketing: Mm-hmm .User Interface: sProject Manager: the {disfmarker}User Interface: then we could discuss later like {disfmarker} we can put all ideas together.Project Manager: Together indeed uh ,Marketing: Mm .User Interface: It should be easier with that .Project Manager: because you ma might have some some information on the the easy to use ,Industrial Designer:Yeah yeah I agree .Marketing: Mm-hmm , yeah .Project Manager: what you were already mentioning .User Interface: Yeah .Industrial Designer: Yeah .User Interface: So {disfmarker}Industrial Designer: And your partis very related to mineUser Interface: Yeah .Industrial Designer: because when you suggest something then it has to be integrated inside .User Interface: Yeah so {vocalsound} I'll I'll go with that actuallyMarketing:Mm-hmm .User Interface: so um {vocalsound} {disfmarker} Okay so m so {vocalsound} then the the idea of uh having a remote is generally you have uh different keys and uh different structures , different forms ,and uh they could be like buttons and um they could be of uh a varying sizes if you want to to uh basically emphasize a particular key more than the other , and uh maybe like you can have different colours for examplehaving the r red for the on off switching on and off the button . So this this is the general trend to ha the method they do . {vocalsound}Industrial Designer: Yeah .Marketing: Mm-hmm .User Interface: So what I havefound was that uh currently uh the {gap} they are mostly that the T_V_ , V_C_R_ , music system operated ones actually , and they are very specific to each other , but there are some common keys for example if youwant to follow the V_C_R_ and if you want to follow the uh g uh s some uh soundtrack on the w w see they have the common thing actually you can haveMarketing: Mm .User Interface: and uh {vocalsound}{disfmarker} There is also um a speech recognition to store channel information , names , like {disfmarker} You can basically {disfmarker} if you have a multiple functionality , say T_V_ , V_C_R_ or something I say itto the T_V_ and the {gap} T_V_ , and you can programme the keys if you want to , certain keys are even the channel information {vocalsound} .Marketing: Mm . Mm . I like the idea though of having speechrecognition for like the n the name of a channel like B_B_C_ , rather than having to remember the the number of it on the keypad . That's a good idea .User Interface: Yeah yeah so you you you can just uh because uhas more and more channels come then you have more and more problems to remember the v v exact channel numbers ex exactly ,Industrial Designer: {gap} .Marketing: Mm .Industrial Designer: Yeah .User Interface:even if you arrange it by {disfmarker} however you arrange it , you still have the problem to remember exactly which channel you want to {disfmarker}Marketing: Hmm . Mm . Yeah I really like that idea .IndustrialDesigner: So what functionalities do you suggest for that ? For facing this problem ?User Interface: So it it it's like it {gap} limited one . In the present market I saw it that says something like they are looking for{vocalsound} eighty word thing , eighty word ,Marketing: Mm-hmm .User Interface: which shouldn't be th that difficult to implement , like eighty to hundred word . Basically you want you don't want to store all thechannels in the remote control ,Marketing: Mm .User Interface: you want to st store your favourite channel .Marketing: Maybe ten channels , yeah at the most .User Interface: Yeah some ten twelve channel information. You know you don't want to st store all the hundred channel information into that .Industrial Designer: Okay .Marketing: Mm .User Interface: And uh basically uh it depends like the remote with L_C_D_ display forbrowsing because you have multiple functionalities for example you are watching a movie , and uh uh you are {vocalsound} having a universal remote control and you want to uh you don't know really whichfunctionality is {gap} now , so I am using the T_V_ so every time I use it , it could be like , for example I can use a simple toggle switch , and a display , so I press it so the display says , okay , I'm in T_V_ or D_V_D_or whatever it is , instead of having three keys separately for four keys ,Marketing: Mm-hmm .Industrial Designer: Mm-hmm . Oh yeah yeah yeah mm .User Interface: to model the functionalities will increase actually,Marketing: Mm .Industrial Designer: Mm .User Interface: and for you and you might want {vocalsound}Marketing: Mm .User Interface: you don't want separate keys for all of them . You can't . And uh well there canbe children friendly where you can programme your remote so that they they are not allowed uh to browse certain channels which you can block them , and you can operate them . So these are the things presentlywhich are seen in the market scenarios at present .Industrial Designer: Mm-hmm .User Interface: I personally would look at {vocalsound} things like having a u universal remote , is uh um is a good idea , like insteadof having {gap} unusual ones for all of them you can think of having , um with multiple functionality possibly with speech recognition .Marketing: Mm-hmm .User Interface: I got a mail from the the coffee machineinterface unit that uh they have uh integrated the s speech recognition into a into the coffee machine ,Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}Marketing: Mm bUser Interface: and so if you say hello coffee machine , it say hiJoe , or something like that , you know , and uh {disfmarker}Marketing: But a coffee machine , there's not too many words they'd be using with that it's a it's a small vocabulary .User Interface: {vocalsound} Yeah youyou won't be using it , so it's a limited vocabulary mm thing , and very isolated wordMarketing: Mm . Mm .User Interface: and it's uh it is interesting , and basically storing the channel through voice or other ways ofprogramming your keys , on the display for the browsingMarketing: Mm .User Interface: which is again {disfmarker} and maybe having something like a blinking thing , like uh it could indicate you're uh {disfmarker} itit could indicate what is cal like the uh whether uh you you have enough battery in your in your uh remote , the blinking .Marketing: Mm .Industrial Designer: Yeah .User Interface: At the same time , if it's a dark room ,it can be used to locate the remote alsoMarketing: {vocalsound}User Interface: {vocalsound} {gap} or {disfmarker}Industrial Designer: And you want okay {disfmarker} for coming back to one pointMarketing: Twothirty five supposed to finish .Industrial Designer: y you want to let the user to programming the keys ? Some of them ?User Interface: Yeah you can let them to do that .Industrial Designer: And uh isn't that toodifficult for the {disfmarker} we want w I don't know if we still want the um R_C_ to be easy to use ,Marketing: Hmm .Industrial Designer: that's the {gap} compromise .User Interface: N no but the {disfmarker} if yougive {disfmarker} it d depends on the easiness like the user how much effort he can put .Industrial Designer: Yeah .Marketing: Hmm .User Interface: Like for example uh I would like to store in certain way , so if youwant to give the full freedom to the userMarketing: Mm .User Interface: or you want to keep some constraints and let the user use it with that constraint .Industrial Designer: Yeah .Marketing: Yeah . Mm . I think youcan do it both ways .User Interface: So it deIndustrial Designer: Yeah .Marketing: You can have it so it's easy {gap} they can pick it up and use it straight away without doing anythi without customizing it ,IndustrialDesigner: A standard .Marketing: or if they want to they have the option of using these extra features .Industrial Designer: Yeah .Project Manager: Um yes but but I do {vocalsound} {disfmarker}User Interface: So{disfmarker}Industrial Designer: Yeah .Project Manager: maybe you can {vocalsound} give a hand to us because I I'm not sure whether that that we can implement that for twelve Euro and fifty cents .User Interface:{vocalsound} So {disfmarker}Marketing: Hmm .Project Manager: I'm sorry to have {disfmarker} {vocalsound} Every time I have to come down on this price againMarketing: Hmm .Project Manager: to {vocalsound}so this might be a little limiting for your creativity ,Marketing: Hmm .Project Manager: but it's it's it's the real {disfmarker} {vocalsound} We have to consider it . S so {vocalsound}Industrial Designer: Yeah .ProjectManager: do we think these ideas {vocalsound} an and my uh sp speech recognition , I mean maybe it's possible for for twelve Euro but then then it will be at cost of other functionality we might implement like the uhuh the the the furry uh {vocalsound} uh case of the {disfmarker}Marketing: Mm . Hmm .Industrial Designer: Mm-hmm yeah like {vocalsound} I would say that for programming uh keys , you said , uh it could be uheasily uh done within the the package of twel twelve Euros ,User Interface: Yeah .Project Manager: Mm .User Interface: Yeah .Industrial Designer: but for the A_S_R_ system , uh I'm not sure if it's feasible to havethisUser Interface: We well we can still look at {disfmarker} we can talk with the coffee unitIndustrial Designer: We {vocalsound}User Interface: and you can uh check how much how much they {disfmarker}{vocalsound}Industrial Designer: Exactly yeah i if if it's a low vocabulary it's already implemented ,User Interface: yeah yeahMarketing: Mm .User Interface: yeah .Industrial Designer: and w how much it's cost , maybewith a f cheap chip .User Interface: Maybe we can come {vocalsound} we we can talk to them , and we can come with that ,Project Manager: Mm mm .User Interface: you know .Industrial Designer: Yeah .UserInterface: And also well you can think of having uh since you have a {disfmarker} you know something {gap} maybe if you added little bit of {gap} display , you might need the {disfmarker} to che keep checking thebattery , so you really need a some {vocalsound} kind of indicator ,Marketing: Hmm .User Interface: so it could be a blinking option of L_E_D_ {vocalsound}Project Manager: Hmm .User Interface: it could actually beused to detect also .Industrial Designer: Yeah .User Interface: If it's in a dark room you can basically detect it also .Marketing: Mm . Hmm .Project Manager: Hmm .Industrial Designer: Yeah {vocalsound} .Marketing: Ilike the idea too of being able to use the remote in the dark ,Project Manager: Mm .User Interface: So {disfmarker}Marketing: so either having the buttons so you can feel the difference between them or if they if theylight up or something .User Interface: No actually {vocalsound} i if i it is like {disfmarker} you know it tells you um , it can be for two purposes ,Marketing: Mm .User Interface: like if you have an L_C_D_ display and allthose things it's not going to be the standard remote ,Marketing: Mm . Hmm .User Interface: which is having uh which need just uh six six volt uh th sorry three volts um of D_C_ .Marketing: Mm .User Interface: It mayneed more actually , so y you you may need to check your battery usage it {disfmarker} and then you need that , some functionality to indicate the battery limit .Industrial Designer: Mm .Marketing: Hmm .User