Project Manager: So we come to the third meetings . I have {gap} good .Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}Project Manager: Um so in the last meeting we have discussed the functional design and now we will talkabout the conceptual design . So we will talk about some specific details .Industrial Designer: Okay so I think I will do my presentation on the components concept so can you please uh open uh {disfmarker} I'mparticipant two .Project Manager: This {disfmarker}Industrial Designer: Components design .Project Manager: {gap}Industrial Designer: Okay so uh the first thing uh I have done is to to made a review together withthe uh manufactural uh department and have which components was uh available to build a remote control . So for energy sources we have we have to choose between the solar energy , hand dynamo and uh kineticum well uh kinetic uh technique {vocalsound} to to store the energy .User Interface: {vocalsound}Marketing: {vocalsound}Industrial Designer: We also um {vocalsound} we also can put a regular battery in the in theremote control . Now {disfmarker}Project Manager: Uh this is what we have decided in the last meeting . But if we use battery {disfmarker}Industrial Designer: Yeah b uh f well uh I meant uh by by battery I meant uhI will not have a uh a wire between the remote control and the energy source but uh I didn't fou we didn't decide yet which kind of battery we will put inside the the remote . So uh it's a point to discuss . Then uh thecase material we have uh uh also several choices , like wood , rubber , titanium or latex . {vocalsound} But uh well it's not a a re uh well a real issue for the {vocalsound} {disfmarker} from the technical uh point ofview . Concerning the interface uh we can we can put mm just simple buttons or scrolls or buttons uh much more complicated , but it also requires that the chip to process the button is more complicated so .UserInterface: Mm .Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} And uh this is the last point , the choice of chips . So what I have f found is that I think basic battery or kinetic uh energy uh collection is the is the better way toprovide energy because I think solar energy wi won't work {vocalsound} in a cluttered uh {vocalsound} uh environment .User Interface: Mm .Industrial Designer: So um so I think we can start with these two mainthings . For the case uh well uh I think that uh titanium is um is a good choice because it's trendy and it's uh it's uh well it's modern and uh user are are are {disfmarker} mm will be uh very happy to have a{vocalsound} a a nice remote . For the interface uh I think that we can ach achieve uh all the desired functionalities by s just uh using uh rubber buttons , simple buttons and th thus this allow to use a regular chip{vocalsound} that are uh well cheaper . {vocalsound}User Interface: Mm .Industrial Designer: And s so uh we can move to the next slide .User Interface: Sorry .Industrial Designer: Yeah .User Interface: What is thissingle curved {disfmarker} what does it mean ?Industrial Designer: Well uh uh i i it's uh it's the the shape of the um of the remote .User Interface: So it's it's not {disfmarker}Industrial Designer: You you will have the{disfmarker} well um the the curve will fit into your hand when you grab the {disfmarker}User Interface: Yo l yeah . When you hold on it , it is comfortable to hold .Industrial Designer: Yeah . It's more confog fcomfortable that if these uh it's completely flat .User Interface: Okay . Yeah . And the battery , is it kind of a rechargeable or it doesn't matter ?Industrial Designer: Yeah the um that's the point . The kinetic one is uh yyou can recharge uh by the um {disfmarker}User Interface: That that's what it means by kinetic .Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Yeah and by {disfmarker} well by just by moving the ar uh your arm the mm well theremote will uh accumulate energy .User Interface: Okay . Mm-hmm . Okay .Industrial Designer: But I d I don't know it's {disfmarker} if it is feasible because I don't know if yet if if the user will move enough to providethe remote um all the necessary energy .User Interface: Mm . {vocalsound} Mm . Okay . Yeah . Yeah . We we might check with our R_ and D_ department to see if they have this product {vocalsound} ready for market. {vocalsound}Industrial Designer: Yeah . {vocalsound} And {disfmarker} yeah and so can you go to the next slide please . So and uh that's uh that summarize well what I have said .User Interface: Mm mm .{vocalsound} {vocalsound} WhaIndustrial Designer: So uh you're right we can uh see in our uh R_ and D_ uh {vocalsound} if the kinetic metal is sufficient to provide enough energy .User Interface: Ah the department. Mm .Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} That's it .User Interface: Uh {disfmarker} So I um keep in touch with the R_ and D_ department .Industrial Designer: Oh yeahUser Interface: {vocalsound}Industrial Designer:I take care , it's all right .User Interface: {vocalsound} So the titanium case is the normal case that {disfmarker} I'll show you some pictures that I have and you tell me whether they are titanium case or not .IndustrialDesigner: {vocalsound} All right . Yeah .User Interface: 'Cause I am not very sure , plastic , titanium or whatever . There's another point I want to make , is that the uh {disfmarker} well you've seen them I le na mypresentation that um I point out some {disfmarker} why buttons are not the mm not the only ways you can {vocalsound} use {disfmarker} Yeah . Yeah , maybe nIndustrial Designer: {vocalsound}Project Manager: Wewill , okay .User Interface: {vocalsound}Project Manager: Three .User Interface: Yeah . {vocalsound} So the user interface is uh i it uses the aspect uh of a computer system , a programme which can be seen or heardor otherwise perceived by the human userProject Manager: {gap}User Interface: and the commands and mechanism the user uses to control its operation and input data . So you s this gives you the ways to input dataand we have uh {disfmarker} we are more {disfmarker} we emphasise more on the graphical user interface here . The idea is to represent buttons as figures , diagrams , symbols and on so you you can easily whenyou look at the symbols you understand what it is doing .Project Manager: What's the function of this button .User Interface: Yeah . Yeah . So .Project Manager: I think it makes the the interface really {disfmarker}UserInterface: Ea easy to use . So next one .Project Manager: Graphical user interface {gap} .User Interface: {gap} function five . So I can use the button , the mouse maybe .Project Manager: A graphical user interfaceemphasise the use of pictures .User Interface: Yeah . So next line . So the {disfmarker} here are some examples . So they cluster the buttons together . They group them into col they colour them and uh they havedifferent forms as well . Mm but this interface are kind of confusing . Uh basically there are too many buttons . Right . Next one .Industrial Designer: Yeah .User Interface: So some people are propose voice recognitionand so {disfmarker} ah by the way I receive an email from the from one our departments saying that the voice recognition has been used in the coffee machine {vocalsound} for this by a companyIndustrial Designer:{vocalsound}User Interface: when you tell the {disfmarker} you say good morning coffee machine and the machine are reply to you . So I just got an email saying that .Industrial Designer: Mm-hmm mm mm .UserInterface: And it seems like this voice recognition technology is ready to be used so we might consider that , supposedly .Industrial Designer: Yeah fine .User Interface: {vocalsound} The next one . Mm so somebody{disfmarker} some people use uh some people use a spinning wheel th with the L_C_ display so instead of using the mm buttons you have a L_C_D_ screen and then there you can u you can use that as buttons , youcan use that as real {disfmarker} so so that could be an option as well . Touch screen , I mean .Project Manager: Yeah .User Interface: Next one . And some people propose a scroll button . Integrated with push buttonsor you may have scroll button instead of p just the push button . Like the one we have here . Uh , next one . So mmProject Manager: Mm-hmm .User Interface: so there are a few aspects that I collected here . So sbasically this deals with special users , children , handicapped people , old people , and uh mm and prog basically they are programmable , specially for children . And uh mm {disfmarker} yeah yeah . And then theyalso secure uh covers , to protect uh secure and hidden programming and battery covers that will protect your settings . So {disfmarker} But we don't have to integrate all these complicated features . I'm just sayingthat the {disfmarker} currently in the market there are there are control there are remote controllers f {gap} customisable for different people . Yeah , so that's the point . The next one . And uh you see this is the onewhere you have the protection cover . Mm maybe useful for children , they migh you you they only see the buttons outside . And for adults wh where you have more control you can see the one inside . So the adultsmight wanna have a key to lock that to pr so children will not touch the button inside .Industrial Designer: Yeah .User Interface: Yeah .Industrial Designer: S a good idea .User Interface: The next one .IndustrialDesigner: {vocalsound}User Interface: So this guy {disfmarker} this is another company that provides big buttons . At {disfmarker} I see that that is useful for old people and then you don't get it lost . But for ourproduct we don't need a big one because you have voice recognition e eventually with use .Industrial Designer: Yeah .User Interface: And you can call your remote controller if you don't know where it is .IndustrialDesigner: {vocalsound}User Interface: {vocalsound} T_V_ remote controller where are you ?Project Manager: {vocalsound}User Interface: And then , he will beeps and to say that I am here , {vocalsound} forexample .Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}Project Manager: {gap} We should include speech synthesis in this case , no ?User Interface: Is it possible ?Industrial Designer: Yeah .Marketing: Yeah .User Interface: Uh ?{vocalsound}Industrial Designer: Yeah but uh as Norman say if uh there is uh already a commercial product available who t who do this we we can check uh to integrate it i into our uh new remote control .Marketing:Yeah .User Interface: Yeah . Yeah . Yeah . Yeah . And uh , this is another one where you can uh {disfmarker} the the the part that's a V_ standing for the volume . So there's a up arrow and a down arrow . But you thesee that in the V_ , the V_ appears to be the down arrow on the top {disfmarker} on the top up arrow {disfmarker} {vocalsound} if you {disfmarker}Project Manager: Mm-hmm .User Interface: up arrow there's a V_like as as if it's turning down so it's confusing interface , so I wanna avoid this kind of thing in the design .Industrial Designer: Yeah yeah .User Interface: And here are {disfmarker} is uh here is a s short summary thatI summary that I compiled after the findings I found . Big buttons are convenient , voice recognition helps , push buttons , scroll buttons , spinning wheels can be used as navigation tools . And uh user customisable isimportant and finally simplicity simplicity is the key . Yeah . So {vocalsound} we have many concepts thereIndustrial Designer: Hmm . {vocalsound}User Interface: but we have to choose later on which ones areimportant to be used .Industrial Designer: Yeah .User Interface: And basically uh {disfmarker}Industrial Designer: Well I {vocalsound} I think you it's it's it's fine you have uh reviewed all all the possibilitiesUserInterface: Yeah .Industrial Designer: but uh uh well uh i if we consider that uh the user interface is displayed on the T_V_ screen I don't think we nee uh we need much buttons in the remoteProject Manager: {gap}UserInterface: Mm-hmm .Industrial Designer: since we we just have to navigate and to have a okay or enter key or things like that ,User Interface: Yeah . Mm .Industrial Designer: because uh adding wheels or scrolls uhmakes the thing more complicated and more expensive also , so .User Interface: Mm . Okay .Project Manager: Or maybe we can include the user manual in the in the remote control {gap} and we should have just abutton like help and you say uh and you ik you press the button help and maybe you see the the user m might in the in the T_V_ .Industrial Designer: Yeah . That's a good idea .Marketing: {vocalsound}IndustrialDesigner: To have a help button .User Interface: A help button .Project Manager: Yeah .User Interface: So you are display on the screen .Industrial Designer: Yeah .Project Manager: On T_V_ T_V_ screen .UserInterface: So {disfmarker} on the T_V_ screen .Industrial Designer: On the T_V_ screen . On the T_V_ screen the uh how to use your remote .Project Manager: So just you push the buttonUser Interface: Okay . Okay .Okay .Project Manager: and we will {disfmarker}Marketing: Oh .User Interface: So that eliminates all the complicated documentation {gap} ,Project Manager: Yeah .User Interface: okay . So wiMarketing: But peopleare often enough looking at the help ,Project Manager: If the if {disfmarker}Marketing: once they see the help button they say oh this is a complicated stuff .Project Manager: {vocalsound} No {vocalsound} In the casewhere they need help , in the case where they need help .Industrial Designer: Uh yeah . {vocalsound}Marketing: {vocalsound} It's a psychology .Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} In a marketing point of view.Marketing: {vocalsound} Okay .User Interface: Yeah .Marketing: And let us see what the market demands .Project Manager: Yeah .Marketing: We could just go to my presentation .Industrial Designer: But{disfmarker} uh wel well I think {disfmarker}Project Manager: It's just for user customizable , for kids or old people .Marketing: Yeah that's right .User Interface: Mm .Project Manager: So {disfmarker}Marketing: Imean it just showed us the remote with an cap which could be used for kids and if you remove the {disfmarker}Project Manager: So it's the same {disfmarker}Marketing: Same remote with some {disfmarker}ProjectManager: Can be used by both kids and old people .Marketing: Both yeah .User Interface: Mm . {vocalsound} Well uh what I s propose is that uh you know a remote controller , i {vocalsound} it could be a cube,Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}User Interface: is uh a small device that uh looks like a cube and maybe you can just change the {vocalsound} um the buttons , if you ch turn one side you get one one buttons , youturn the other side you get the other buttons , so for maybe new generation people who get used to the computer they want lots of controls . {vocalsound}Project Manager: Maybe for kids , kids they like uh t no l theylike to {disfmarker}User Interface: Small {disfmarker}Industrial Designer: Uh well .User Interface: Yeah .Industrial Designer: So le le let's see what uh what {vocalsound} people want .User Interface: Let's see themarket demand .Project Manager: {vocalsound}Marketing: And then we can decide what what we can {disfmarker} yeah .User Interface: What what {gap} market {disfmarker} yes yes .Project Manager:{gap}Marketing: So we just made an marketing survey of what people need from our remotes and how it could be special from the other remotes . And we got the best on the responses from the questionnaires . Uh wealso have some prizes for the most creative solutions . And we found the following solutions which we could {disfmarker} which would be helpful for our design . So seventy percent of the users , they find their remotecontrols very ugly , they don't find it pleasant to use in the size or usage or anything . And eighty percent of the people they are always l I mean they are willing to spend more money if the remote control would lookfancy . And the current remote controls do not match well the operating behaviour of the user . And seventy five percent of the users said they zap a lot .Project Manager: Yeah . {vocalsound}Marketing: And fiftypercent say they use only ten percent of the buttons ,Project Manager: Mm-hmm .Industrial Designer: Yeah .Marketing: so the rest of the ninety percent of the buttons they're not used most of the times .UserInterface: Yeah . Yes .Marketing: So this were the findings which we found . And also they cited frustrations with the present remote controls . Most of {disfmarker} fifty percent of the time the remote controls are lostsomewhere in the room and people are always searching for them {vocalsound} rather than watching the T_V_ .User Interface: Yeah .Marketing: And by the time they found the remote control the program is finished.Industrial Designer: Yeah .Marketing: So {vocalsound} they're frustrated a lot {vocalsound}User Interface: {vocalsound}Marketing: And um if the remote control is too complicated it takes much time to learn thefunctionality of it .User Interface: Mm .Industrial Designer: Mm , the functionalities yeah .Marketing: So you can just see the percentage , fifty percent people they responded that they always lose their remotes andthirty four percent they say that it's quite difficult to learn if it's too complex .Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Yeah .Marketing: So keeping in view all these findings and the frustrations I think this should be thesolution for them . We should have an L_C_D_ on the rem remote control .User Interface: Oh .Industrial Designer: Well mm w well I I I don't really see the advantage of having uh L_C_D_ on the on the remote controlif we have a a a big screen and uh display on the screen .User Interface: Big screen .Industrial Designer: It's {disfmarker}Marketing: Mm-hmm ?Industrial Designer: yeah of course it's fancy trendy and so on but it's it'sexpensive to produce {vocalsound} and it's not really {disfmarker}Marketing: I mean as our survey says that people are willing to pay more if their remotes are fancy .Industrial Designer: Yeah .Marketing: So if wehave a L_C_D_ on the remote , rather than looking onto the T_V_ you just look into a remote and navigate it . It's the same menu as we have saw that iPod remote control .User Interface: Mm yeah .IndustrialDesigner: {vocalsound} Yeah yeah .User Interface: Mm . The thing {vocalsound} {disfmarker}Marketing: We just {vocalsound} play aroundIndustrial Designer: Yeah but when you play with the iPod you don't have{vocalsound} a big screen in front of you , sProject Manager: You can use this screen instead of the big se screen ,User Interface: Yeah . Yeah .Marketing: Yeah .User Interface: Yeah .Project Manager: instead of usethe {disfmarker} yeah .User Interface: If you re-use the existing screen , we element {disfmarker} eliminate the L_C_D_ , after all the L_C_D_ just to displayProject Manager: Hmm .User Interface: and if you have thecolourful screen you can make the display colourful , fancy , as fancy as the one on the L_C_D_ ,Marketing: Yeah .User Interface: maybe even better .Industrial Designer: Yeah .User Interface: So{disfmarker}Marketing: I mean this were the points which we got from the market demands .User Interface: Yeah .Industrial Designer: Yeah . Yeah yeah .User Interface: Yeah .Marketing: SoIndustrial Designer: So I thI I {vocalsound} well I think we we can focus on the uh on the fancy look on the uhUser Interface: Yeah . More on a fancy design .Marketing: {vocalsound} Yeah that's fine .Industrial Designer: on the speechrecognition if the technology is availableMarketing: Yeah . I mean that's {disfmarker}User Interface: {vocalsound} Yeah .Industrial Designer: but well I think L_C_D_ will uh will uh make us spend a lot of money for notso big results .User Interface: Mm . Remember we have a s budget for the cost of producing the remote controller .Marketing: Mm-hmm .Project Manager: But {disfmarker} Yeah .User Interface: Yeah . So i is{disfmarker}Marketing: Uh yeah we have uh {disfmarker}Project Manager: {gap}User Interface: so the thing is you can find out how much an L_C_D_ will cost and then we'll decide again . {vocalsound}Marketing:{vocalsound} I mean that should be found out by the Industrial Designers . {vocalsound}Project Manager: {vocalsound}Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}User Interface: Uh maybe you can find out the price and tell usnext time {gap} . Is i if iIndustrial Designer: So price of uh L_C_D_ display .User Interface: Yeah .Industrial Designer: And {disfmarker}Marketing: And it's always good to have an voice recognition for the remotecontrols .User Interface: Yeah . And also the cost for the speech recognition .Project Manager: Mm . It's for {disfmarker}User Interface: Ask our R_ and D_ department .Industrial Designer: Yeah .Project Manager: it'sjust for small vocabulary . We {disfmarker} it's not {disfmarker}User Interface: Yeah .Marketing: Yeah it's o only for a limited vocabulary ,Project Manager: yeah .User Interface: Yeah . And hoMarketing: say eighty


Project Manager: Okay , welcome to the detailed design meeting . Again , I'm gonna take minutes . Oh , we're gonna have a prototype presentation first .User Interface: {gap}Project Manager: Uh , who's gonna givethe prototype presentation ? You two guys ? Okay . Go ahead .Industrial Designer: Yes . {vocalsound} {gap}User Interface: {gap} .Marketing: {vocalsound} {vocalsound} {gap} . {vocalsound}User Interface: {gap}coffee .Marketing: {vocalsound}Industrial Designer: 'Kay , we've made a prototype . Um , we've got uh {vocalsound} uh our aspects from the last meeting . Uh , especially we looked at the form , material and thecolour . Um , we've uh drawn here the p prototype . The logo is uh is uh {vocalsound} is pretty uh {vocalsound} obvious to see on the on the remote control ,User Interface: {vocalsound} {vocalsound}IndustrialDesigner: but it is necessary when you want to build your uh company f to a level higher . Um , {vocalsound} our interface elements , there are shown in the in the drawing . Maybe you can uh point them uh{disfmarker} The functions .User Interface: Uh , well the uh {disfmarker} all the functions are discussed uh {disfmarker} I think the most of the functions are uh uh obvious . Uh , it's a little bit . Uh , power button . Uhthen the the the nine uh channels .Project Manager: {vocalsound}User Interface: Uh the volume uh uh at the side , and the other side is the programmes . And then we had uh just uh two buttons , we place them inthe middle , uh the menu , and for the teletextProject Manager: Oh no , the the the mute button misses now .User Interface: {vocalsound} {disfmarker} I thought that was thMarketing: Alright , I {disfmarker}ProjectManager: Do y do you {disfmarker}User Interface: Oh , the mute button .Project Manager: did we want to have a m mute button ?Industrial Designer: But uh that {disfmarker}Marketing: Yeah .Industrial Designer: It'suh here then , in the middle .User Interface: Yeah .Project Manager: Huh .Marketing: Alright , and uh you gotta point out which is the volume um uh button and which is the programme button .Industrial Designer: Yes ,umUser Interface: {vocalsound} Well , yeah mo uh moIndustrial Designer: we've discUser Interface: Yeah , well most of them are right-handed .Industrial Designer: Most of the usersMarketing: Yeah , but you yougotta make it clear on the {disfmarker} on {disfmarker}User Interface: Yeah well , I don't have time in uh anymore on the {disfmarker}Industrial Designer: Yes , y there there will be a p a little a little P_ on that and alittle uh {disfmarker} yeah .Marketing: Yeah , and a and a triangle on that .User Interface: Oh yeah , just progr programme above , I think .Marketing: Yes . Next to that I kinda miss a zero actually .User Interface:{vocalsound}Project Manager: {vocalsound} Wait , there's {disfmarker} was one thing I wanted to ask .Marketing: {vocalsound}Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}User Interface: {vocalsound}Marketing:{vocalsound}Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}Project Manager: Uh , there are different ways for remote controls to uh {vocalsound} do uh likeMarketing: {vocalsound}Project Manager: uh d I call it teens andtwenties . Uh , y th th th the two numbers .Industrial Designer: Yes .Marketing: All n no , that's um {vocalsound} kinda dependent on the television .User Interface: Yeah , true , yeah .Industrial Designer: It's atelevision . Yes .Project Manager: Yeah , but do we have {disfmarker} do we need extra buttons ,User Interface: Uh {disfmarker}Project Manager: {vocalsound} for example some uh some have to {disfmarker}UserInterface: Uh I think so .Marketing: I think {disfmarker}Industrial Designer: Yes , yes , you have you have a lot of standard buttons that has to be uh on it , uh th with the one and a double uh uh{disfmarker}Marketing: Yeah , I think you should add {disfmarker} {vocalsound}User Interface: Zero ?Marketing: A cross , or whatever . Yeah , line .Project Manager: Yeah , but you don't you don't actually need them,User Interface: May maybe here ?Industrial Designer: yes .Project Manager: becau b l a lot of remote controls work that y when y that you when you fir you push the one first , then you have a couple of seconds{disfmarker}User Interface: Yeah . And then a second .Marketing: No , that's dependent on the television .Project Manager: No , I don't think so .Industrial Designer: Yes , you have televisions , then you have to , youknow , you have to uh press {disfmarker}Marketing: I do know so .User Interface: Is it depending on television ?Project Manager: Nah , I don't think so really ,Marketing: Yeah .Project Manager: because you have a{disfmarker} I know some remote controls that don't have these buttons , but you still can , know , obviously you can still select the twenty {disfmarker} uh a number in the twenty or in the ten .Industrial Designer:Yes , but but a lot {disfmarker} uh {disfmarker}Marketing: Yes , but uh uh no uh remote control nowadays are um {disfmarker} {vocalsound} they come with the television . Or actually , the other way around .ProjectManager: No , I think {disfmarker} uh I really think it's nMarketing: But {disfmarker} {vocalsound}Project Manager: because you can {disfmarker} when when you put a button on it with like one and uh then a dash ,it's the same thing as when you just push the one ,Marketing: Yeah .Project Manager: because it i it first gives you the functionality of that that uh separate button you also had to uh apply .Industrial Designer: Yes ,butMarketing: Yeah , well {disfmarker} but su {vocalsound} If {disfmarker}Industrial Designer: some televisions don't accept uh that that {disfmarker}Project Manager: Yeah , because that's i it's for television . It'sexact the same thing .Industrial Designer: No , no , but sMarketing: No no no . So some television respond differently . Look , if uh i iProject Manager: No , listen listen . When you push the button , the remote controlgives a signal . I in th in the first place it gives a signal which it would also send when you put a separate button on it .Marketing: Yes . Yes , that's true .Project Manager: The one with dash , that signal gi and when ywhe when you don't push another button on the remote control within five seconds , then the remote control gives a signal for channel one .User Interface: Yeah . True .Marketing: No {disfmarker}Project Manager: Ithink it works that way , really .Marketing: No , it it it works uh if you haven't got uh a special button for it , uh if you push a one , then on your television there will appear a one and a a line , which is an empty space.Project Manager: {vocalsound} Yeah , but it's exact the same {gap} that w would appear when you put a separate button {disfmarker} push a separate button .Industrial Designer: Yes , but some some old televisionsuh you have to uh click on uh a special button , uh then you go to a a next level , you can push two buttons .Project Manager: Yeah , but you don't underst uh you don't understand my point .Marketing: Yep .{vocalsound} True .Project Manager: I think it's exact the same thing when yIndustrial Designer: You want {disfmarker} Yes , but some television don't support it .Project Manager: No , but then they would a wouldalso support that button , because it's the same thing .User Interface: But the exProject Manager: Listen , with {disfmarker} that that's that special but button {gap} you're talking about , eh ? That's just a signal torecei ju they send a t signal to the v tv T_V_ that they have to put a one in {disfmarker} on your screen and a dash , which you can pu so you can uh still put another number on it . When you don't have that separatebutton , and you push y one , it's exactly the same thing . Do y you {disfmarker} the remote control gives that same signal as it would give when you only had {disfmarker}Industrial Designer: No ,Marketing: No , ssome some televisions need the input first uh and and you cIndustrial Designer: a remote can {disfmarker}Project Manager: Yeah .Industrial Designer: Yes ,Project Manager: But you give the input .Industrial Designer:so they need {disfmarker} no , they need {disfmarker}Project Manager: You push the one . That's the same thing as the button with the one and it {disfmarker}Marketing: No , that's not true .Project Manager: yes it itis .Marketing: It's simply not true . It's simply not true .Project Manager: Think about it .User Interface: Yeah .Industrial Designer: No ,User Interface: You uh you can wai when you push the one you can show on thetelly a one and just a dash , and then wait uh two uh seconds or something {disfmarker}Industrial Designer: but uh {disfmarker}Marketing: Uh {disfmarker}Project Manager: And it's the same thing what happens anda g remote control gives another signal after five seconds that is just one .Marketing: No , remote control doesn't give signal after five seconds . Remote control is a stupid thing . If you push a button , it sends itimmediately to to the television .Project Manager: Yeah , that's true . Yeah , but I m uh but it's {disfmarker} I I know for sure that some televisions that w th th the remote control supplied , only ha has the c thesebuttons with a one and a dash and a two and a dash , but when you use a bu a n remote control that doesn't sport these buttons , it still works .Industrial Designer: Yeah , it {disfmarker}Project Manager: But okay , wewe'll implMarketing: No , definitely not . Definitely not .User Interface: We'll discuss them in the usability lab .Project Manager: No , we'll apply them then for now .User Interface: Uh eva evaluation .Marketing:{vocalsound}User Interface: I don't know uh I don't know if if it's it's necessary .Project Manager: Yeah , app just apply them next to the zero , the one and the two .User Interface: Yeah ?Project Manager: Yeah , Ithink so . Yeah , for now , if we don't know for sure whether {disfmarker} {vocalsound}User Interface: {vocalsound} Okay .Industrial Designer: And the button for the SCART uh audio video uh external input.Marketing: Yes .User Interface: Ach .Project Manager: Yeah but {disfmarker}Marketing: Uh , you can access that uh via zero , and then minus , I guess .Project Manager: okay . {vocalsound} What I said about uh theremote control sending another signal , that that might not be true ,Marketing: Yeah .User Interface: Yeah .Project Manager: but I still think i it it {disfmarker} all T_V_s in some ways support it , I don't know . I thinkit's more c is m maybe we don't {disfmarker} uh we both don't really understand how it i how it really works ,Industrial Designer: No , no .Project Manager: but I think there's more to in than wha than what you justsaid .Industrial Designer: Uh , remote control sends one signal at one button uh press .Project Manager: I do think that uh m T_V_s support mur multiple kind of remote controls . MIndustrial Designer: Uh , some{disfmarker} N some televisions when when you want to go further than uh ten {disfmarker}Project Manager: Th won't work wi with uh {disfmarker}Industrial Designer: No , you have to you have to uh give thetelevision uh two or more signals .Project Manager: to have that special button .Industrial Designer: When you uh press one button , you give one signal . And the older televisions need more signals to go a level higher. But {disfmarker}Project Manager: Okay , well we'll see .Marketing: Yep .Industrial Designer: When you make the technology that that it will uh give more signals , it could work , but {disfmarker} Just a basic idea ofof of the most uh {disfmarker} most y most common uh and simple uh operations on the remote .Marketing: Okay . I kinda miss the docking station .User Interface: Yeah . {vocalsound}Industrial Designer: Yes . It'shere on the {disfmarker} {vocalsound}User Interface: {vocalsound}Marketing: {vocalsound}User Interface: {vocalsound} Well it {disfmarker}Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}User Interface: yeah , uh there'snothing {disfmarker} I think it's pretty basic ,Industrial Designer: We came uh {disfmarker}User Interface: the the {disfmarker} there's no fuIndustrial Designer: Yes .User Interface: there's one there's one button,Marketing: No nothing really trendy about it .User Interface: that's wha there's there's there's one function and that's n the one button when you want to find it .Industrial Designer: But maybe we can maybe we canmake the docking station uh uh a bit standard for for uh the other products we sell ,Marketing: The button .Industrial Designer: because Real {vocalsound} Real Reaction sells more products than only remote controls .So maybe we can uh use the docking station , for example , uh M_P_ three players or or uhMarketing: Yep .Industrial Designer: uh hearing devices .Marketing: I think that's very difficult , because of different shapes ofuh uh devices .Industrial Designer: Yes , but when you put that same volt voltages on it , you can put uh {disfmarker} when the when the when uh o the the the lowest part of it , when it's o the same as the otherproducts , you can put it all on the same uh {disfmarker}Marketing: {vocalsound} Yeah , of course . Mm-hmm . Well it it got it {disfmarker} it has got to fit into the shape , of course .Industrial Designer: Yes , but wecan make {disfmarker}Marketing: The technology and the voltage can be the same . That's uh that's true . But uh i if you all make the m having a bottom like this , then they all fit .Industrial Designer: No , we canmake uh make the most lowest part all the same .Marketing: Yeah , that's true , but uh {disfmarker}Industrial Designer: When when the the recharger has a has a bit what points out , we can place all on top of it . Justhave to be big enough for the biggest {disfmarker}Marketing: Yes , but uh I I g Shouldn't it fall then ? It {disfmarker} isn't going to fall down ? {vocalsound} That's a bit uh {disfmarker}Industrial Designer: No , whenyou make it large enough no it it will not .Marketing: yeah , I think {disfmarker}Industrial Designer: But then it's a little bit {disfmarker}Marketing: No , but if if {disfmarker} like this , I'll I'll point it out , if you got uh aa a base a base like this ,Industrial Designer: But it's just an idea .Marketing: I won't draw it really . If you got a base which is uh as big as this {disfmarker}Industrial Designer: But it's flat it's flat as as this , so we canp make all the products as flat as this .User Interface: You can . But i i i it's backwards .Marketing: Yeah sure , but if you got if you got a tiny player , it can {disfmarker} {vocalsound}Industrial Designer: Yes , but whenyou make uh uh a bit of big {gap} {disfmarker}User Interface: But it's it's backwards . It's leaning . It's leaning backwards , I think , in the in the docking station .Marketing: Yeah . Uh , wha what you could do if you uh{disfmarker} from the bottom {disfmarker}User Interface: That's text . {vocalsound}Marketing: oh , right , help .Project Manager: But {disfmarker}User Interface: {vocalsound}Marketing: Uh , you could make like ahole in it , you know , of uh {disfmarker} in in the {disfmarker}Industrial Designer: Yes , little holer {disfmarker} littler {disfmarker} Uh , little products go deeper in it .Marketing: Yeah . That i that is possible , yep.Project Manager: Well let's ha let's talk about the docking station later , because uh maybe we have we have to uh consider the docking station anyway , because we have some uh cost issues {vocalsound} still tocome .Marketing: Yeah , sure , you're right .Industrial Designer: Yes . And uh uhMarketing: Oh .Project Manager: But we have to look n I don't know .Industrial Designer: the f the look and feel would be great on this uhremote control , because uh you always uh will uh pick up the remote control in the in the smallest uh area .Marketing: I don't like the colours . Mm-hmm .Project Manager: Yeah .Industrial Designer: Then your uh leftthumb of uh {disfmarker} your right thumb is uh near the programme uh button , which is the most common used uh function , and all the other buttons are available for your uh thumb .Project Manager: Okay.Industrial Designer: So it's it's it's really good design .Marketing: Yeah . Alright .Project Manager: Yes . That's it ?Industrial Designer: Yes , uh on the side uh there will be a strip of rubber , and in the middle uh there isuh a hard uh a hard material , a bit hard plastic with a light uh behind it .Marketing: The light . Okay . And other lights ?Project Manager: I think added lights are gonna be a problem too .Industrial Designer: Yes , wecan make also n neon lights on it , or or the buttons that can make uh light on it .Marketing: No , o on the on the front . Yeah , okay . Maybe the uh the logo .Industrial Designer: Yes .User Interface: {gap} lights?Industrial Designer: But , it will also uh uh use batteries ,Marketing: Yeah , why not ?Industrial Designer: and do we want to {disfmarker}Marketing: Of course .Project Manager: Okay . For now , uh this is uh is goodenough .User Interface: Mm .Project Manager: Yeah , what was uh on the {disfmarker}Marketing: Okay .Industrial Designer: The {disfmarker} all the aspects of the interface buttons were uh {disfmarker}ProjectManager: Okay , but in the {disfmarker} oh yeah , the colour , because we're gonna use uh one colour for the the plastic enclosure and one colour for the rubber , isn't it ? Then we're gonna do the buttons in the i arewe're gonna have rubber buttons .Industrial Designer: Yes .Project Manager: And they're be a {disfmarker} {gap} they'll be in the same colour as the rubber on the side .User Interface: Yeah .Industrial Designer: Yes.Marketing: Uh , in the same colour as the side .User Interface: Yeah . Yeah . Yeah .Marketing: Yeah , I think I think that'll be good .Project Manager: Okay . And I think we should use a a darker colour for the umplastic , and maybe some more m brighter and flashy stuff {disfmarker}Industrial Designer: Yes , maybe we can use on the on the lights on the side we can use uh uh multiple uh lights ,Marketing: Yes .IndustrialDesigner: so it will uh {disfmarker}Project Manager: Yeah , we'll talk about the lights later . 'Cause I also don yeah ,Industrial Designer: Yes .Marketing: Yep .Project Manager: it's depends on the costs and such . Butuh , and we have to agree uh upon the exact colours ,Marketing: Yeah .Project Manager: but may I dunno if that's important , but we'll talk about that later . Okay , for now this is this is okay .Marketing: We will.Project Manager: Um , the next p y you gonna give a presentation too ? Uh , I have to see the agenda .Industrial Designer: No .Marketing: Well , uh yeah , I I'm gonna do something right there , yeah .IndustrialDesigner: {gap}User Interface: {vocalsound}Project Manager: Detail design .Marketing: We gotta do that on the right {vocalsound} {disfmarker} the most {disfmarker} right-most screen , because the leftmost{disfmarker}Project Manager: Evaluation criteria .Marketing: Yep , that's me .Project Manager: Okay .User Interface: Okay .Marketing: Alright . I will be needing that image , so leave it please . Um {disfmarker} Goaway . Right , we're gonna evaluate that design according to a few points . {vocalsound} Um , we g the four of us are going to do that um together .Project Manager: {vocalsound}Marketing: I wanna have a colour overhere , come on . Right , the remote {vocalsound} is not ugly , a bit weird sentence , but the positive things has to be on the left , so I {vocalsound} said not ugly instead of ugly .User Interface: {vocalsound}Marketing:Uh , what would you say , we we gotta give points to uh to all of these to evaluate uh that design , and please forget the drawing skills of these guys .User Interface: {vocalsound}Project Manager: Okay .IndustrialDesigner: {vocalsound}Marketing: {vocalsound} The remote control is not ugly . How do you feel ?Project Manager: Yeah , I think four maybe would be appropriate , because it's {disfmarker} Yeah , maybe it reallydepends on taste . Uh , I mean it's kind of {gap} , our design . It's {disfmarker}Marketing: Yes .Project Manager: so if maybe a lot of people find it really ugly , you know , o other people find it really cool .IndustrialDesigner: Yeah .Marketing: Background colour .Project Manager: I don't know or uh I don't know how you {disfmarker} Casting . Yeah .Industrial Designer: I think I think the the fronts will give it a more uh uh uh lessuglier uh side , because you can uh make it in your own {disfmarker}Marketing: How do you guys feel ? The different designs .Industrial Designer: yes , you can make it in your own uh {disfmarker}Marketing: Yes.User Interface: Yeah .Industrial Designer: more to your own personality or or house style .Marketing: Okay .Project Manager: Yeah , but we d we didn't {disfmarker} we're we're not planning to use fronts , I believe.Marketing: No , not not fronts , but different designs .Project Manager: With a colour a co a colours . Oh , okay .User Interface: No , not fronts . Different designs . Different colours maybe , yeah .Industrial Designer:Yes .Marketing: And that's still uh uh , yeah , is is uh is a little personal touch , I guess .Project Manager: Okay , but {disfmarker} Oh , maybe we should do three or something that w you know , our


Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}Project Manager: So in last meeting we have discussed the conceptual design and we asked you to prepare a prototype for the for the remote control .User Interface: {vocalsound}Okay .Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}Marketing: {vocalsound}Project Manager: {vocalsound} So {gap} . {vocalsound} So let's see the {disfmarker} what did you prepare .User Interface: Yeah , so can you go outto the shared folder ? Mm the shared folder .Project Manager: Sh share folder for th your presentation ?User Interface: Yes . We have a presentation .Project Manager: Because I have here {disfmarker}IndustrialDesigner: {vocalsound}User Interface: {vocalsound} Uh {disfmarker} {gap} So I got the participant uh three . W uh {vocalsound} . Three . It's the final design , yeah .Project Manager: Okay just one {gap} .IndustrialDesigner: {vocalsound}User Interface: {vocalsound} S so so I discussed with Guillaume .Industrial Designer: Mm . {vocalsound} Yeah .User Interface: Right . {vocalsound} And uh {vocalsound} so we have{vocalsound} {disfmarker} and we we are both agreed on some two versions of the prototypes , because we were no not decided whether we wanted to have an L_C_D_ or not because it's too expensive . So we comeup with two versions . One with and one without L_C_D_s . Um but both comes with a charger and then detachable and uh or {gap} control module . And detachable big buttons for all people um . So {vocalsound}.Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} S okay so I'll show you the the two prototypes {vocalsound} . Here we have the first one with the beautiful uh L_C_D_ um display . You you can s here . And you can uh just umbrowse into the the navigation menu by uh joystick joystick-like uh button .User Interface: Mm .Industrial Designer: You can uh choose the direction and if you just push on it it's considered like a enter function .UserInterface: Mm . Mm-hmm .Industrial Designer: You have on the mm on the side here the microphone for the {vocalsound} for the speech recognition system here .User Interface: {vocalsound}Industrial Designer: Andhere the the switch that control if you want {disfmarker}Project Manager: Why you why you you put it in the the side ?Industrial Designer: Well I I I think uh it's the {disfmarker}Project Manager: It's not a good placemaybe {gap} .Industrial Designer: Yeah but {disfmarker}User Interface: No i i it's the all around camer uh microphone isn't it . The the microphone picks up the speeches from anywhere .Industrial Designer: Yeah.Marketing: Is it an only a single mic or a microphone array ?Industrial Designer: Well so it's a microphone array .User Interface: {vocalsound}Project Manager: Oh it's very costly , microphone array {vocalsound}.Marketing: Mm-hmm .Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} NoUser Interface: Yeah {vocalsound}Industrial Designer: it's just a single microphone , and you {disfmarker} I I think uh we we put it here because I thinkwhen you when you are browsing your L_C_D_ you will be close to {disfmarker}User Interface: Mm .Marketing: Yeah .Industrial Designer: well it's better to to to place it here th than here , for instance .User Interface:Yeah {vocalsound} yeah .Marketing: Okay .Industrial Designer: And here is a little switch that control if you want the the speaker uh recognition system to um to be on or off . And uh so this remote control comes upwith its charger .Project Manager: How much does it cost this one ?Industrial Designer: Well this this prototype is um made for about uh well fi fi fifteen fifteen dollarsUser Interface: For the {disfmarker}ProjectManager: Fifteen dollars ?User Interface: Yeah .Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} fifteen dollars ,Project Manager: Ah it's above it's above the budget .Industrial Designer: but uh well it's not it's not uh {disfmarker}yeah , but uh it's just a prototype and if we uh if we optimises the um the uh {disfmarker} voila .Marketing: The cost would be le reduced .Industrial Designer: Yeah the {gap} and the the production costs we we canachieve uh about ten dollars . {gap}User Interface: Mm . Hmm .Project Manager: How many b battery is there ?Industrial Designer: How many , excuse me ?Project Manager: Battery .Industrial Designer: Well uh fbattery , we use uh about uh {disfmarker}User Interface: Is it n the two A_A_s batteries in it .Industrial Designer: Yeah .User Interface: A_A_ rechargeable batteries .Industrial Designer: Rechargeable of course ,UserInterface: Yeah rechargeable batteries .Industrial Designer: because we have the charger .User Interface: We have the charger so it's no problem .Industrial Designer: Yeah and you just {disfmarker}Project Manager:So one one battery ?Industrial Designer: On uh yeah one battery .Marketing: Is that two or one ?User Interface: {vocalsound}Project Manager: It's kinetic reserve .User Interface: {vocalsound} Actually uh it's a flexiblething .Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}Marketing: {vocalsound}User Interface: You just n uh {disfmarker}Marketing: Now what is the whole day rating for that ?Industrial Designer: The {disfmarker} excuse me?Marketing: Whole day's rating .User Interface: {vocalsound}Marketing: What type of battery ?Industrial Designer: Oh yeah it's just a r uh simple battery a rechargeable uh {disfmarker}User Interface: Yeah yeah.Industrial Designer: if you uh like it's exist .Marketing: Something like a two A_ , A_ three size batteries ?Industrial Designer: Yeah .User Interface: Yeah {vocalsound} .Marketing: Mm-hmm .Industrial Designer: Soand if you want to charge the battery you just put the remote control like that to plug in the the chargerUser Interface: Yeah . Yeah .Industrial Designer: and uh leave it uh alone , it's alright .User Interface: Mm .{vocalsound} At uh {vocalsound} yeah .Industrial Designer: Then the next time you pick it , ohProject Manager: {vocalsound}Industrial Designer: it works {vocalsound} .User Interface: I forgot to tell you there is onlya single button there , b this button {disfmarker}Industrial Designer: Yeah just explain the button uh Norman .User Interface: yeah alright . This button is like the mouse {disfmarker} is like a joystick ,IndustrialDesigner: {vocalsound}User Interface: you can move in three hundred and sixty degrees of direction so you can make a turn and it {disfmarker} the additi functions associated to all the actions you ma you have a clickyou have a double click all in a single button {vocalsound} .Project Manager: Mm .Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}User Interface: You can move up , down , left , right , or you can do a swing . So a swing to the left ,a swing to the right defines other functions . So even though it's a single button , but it is pretty s flexible because of the three hundred and sixty degree movement {vocalsound} .Marketing: And the L_C_D_ is this one, on the remote ?User Interface: Yeah . This is the version y that comes with L_C_D_ .Industrial Designer: Yep .Marketing: Yeah .User Interface: Here I present another version without the L_C_D_ .Industrial Designer:{vocalsound}Project Manager: I think it's not a good idea because after maybe one or two months of function is {gap} getting destroyed .User Interface: Mm .Project Manager: If youUser Interface: Uh okay this is newprototype uh {vocalsound} .Project Manager: {gap} {disfmarker}Industrial Designer: Yeah it's {disfmarker}Project Manager: {vocalsound}Industrial Designer: So we have the the second version also with the differentuh button configuration . The second version is also simpler , we d uh we had just uh I have to put the microphone also {vocalsound} .User Interface: {vocalsound} Yeah yeah .Marketing: {vocalsound}IndustrialDesigner: So basically th it's the same uh {disfmarker}Marketing: Uh-huh and also the switch .Project Manager: {vocalsound}Industrial Designer: yeah {vocalsound} .Marketing: {vocalsound} Okay .IndustrialDesigner: Basically it's the same uh things uh uh as uh I presented before . But here we have uh we have uh four buttons for navigation . Press one button uh acting as a a enter button .User Interface: Mm .{vocalsound}Industrial Designer: So um yeah according to what you said it's more robust to the user .Project Manager: Mm-hmm .User Interface: {vocalsound}Marketing: Mm-hmm .Industrial Designer: And uh it'salso cheaper to produce . We can produce uh such remote control for about uh four dollars . {vocalsound}Project Manager: No four dollars , it's {vocalsound} {gap} good . {gap}User Interface: {vocalsound}Marketing:And I think you forgot a point here to have an button to find the charger ,User Interface: Oh noMarketing: because that's a major that's a {disfmarker}User Interface: th actually th we'll come to that point in our{disfmarker}Industrial Designer: Yeah it's it's it's embed in the uh speech recognition system .User Interface: Yeah .Marketing: OkayIndustrial Designer: So {disfmarker}Marketing: and if you disable speech recognitionsystem then ?User Interface: W w I'll I'll come to that point later on .Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} so Norman will explain to you {vocalsound} .Marketing: Mm hmm hmm hmm hmm hmm .Project Manager: Andwe will we will serve the charger with this ?User Interface: Yeah .Marketing: Okay .Industrial Designer: Yeah yeah of course mm {gap} .User Interface: Th they {vocalsound} either these with the {disfmarker} uh thethe charger anyProject Manager: With the remote control .User Interface: in either versions you they they ha they use the same charger yeah .Project Manager: Okay so the price of the charger included in the{disfmarker}User Interface: Uh it's a standard module so you should get it for a cheap price uh {vocalsound} .Project Manager: {vocalsound}Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} {vocalsound} Thank thank you{vocalsound} .Project Manager: Mm-hmm . {vocalsound}Industrial Designer: And so mm-hmm .User Interface: It's that same charger that you can use for the hand-phone but uh again depends on the types . I thinkwe have to investigate more on that , but {vocalsound} {disfmarker}Project Manager: The price should be below twelve and a half Euro .User Interface: {vocalsound} Yeah . YeahProject Manager: Well that's{disfmarker} so {disfmarker}User Interface: but as the Marketing Manager says , people is willing to {disfmarker} people are willing to pay more for good design .Project Manager: We have we have just {vocalsound}{disfmarker}Marketing: Yeah people are willing to pay more ,User Interface: {vocalsound}Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}Marketing: but the company is not willing to invest more at the moment .Project Manager:The price of selling is twenty five Euros .User Interface: Yeah . Yeah . Mm-hmm .Project Manager: And the price of production {disfmarker}User Interface: {vocalsound}Industrial Designer: Alright please uh go onNorman with the special features {vocalsound} .Marketing: Or uh {disfmarker}User Interface: Yeah we'll we'll come up to that , the the the thing that makes this the controller cheap is that it is modular so you wantmore function you pay more . If you want less function i i if you want a reasonable price you pay for the functions that you add on to the system ,Marketing: {vocalsound}User Interface: so is uh modular .ProjectManager: That's for this basis function and if you want more you pay more .User Interface: Yeah yeah ,Project Manager: {gap}User Interface: for example the L_C_D_ , you can take it you can put it {disfmarker} put itback in , or you can use the other one ,Marketing: Something like customised . YeahProject Manager: Yeah .User Interface: or {vocalsound} the speech recogniser with the microphone yeah yeah .Industrial Designer:{vocalsound}User Interface: You want a microphone to put in the {vocalsound} speech recogniser you don't wan you pay less for the system you see {vocalsound} .Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}Project Manager:Okay .Marketing: Mm hmm hmm hmm .Project Manager: {gap}User Interface: So {disfmarker}Marketing: Hmm okay .User Interface: It's pretty flexible in the yeah price {vocalsound} .Industrial Designer: {gap} Youalso have the the the two other modules for the parental controlProject Manager: But {disfmarker}User Interface: Uh yeah yeah you should present that .Industrial Designer: that that you ca you can add up{vocalsound} to the {disfmarker} to your remote controlMarketing: And this is other one ?User Interface: {vocalsound}Industrial Designer: i i if you uh if you want to to have more more power on what you do , and uhwhich channel you want to choose and so on .User Interface: {vocalsound} Yeah .Industrial Designer: H here is just the the the module for the kids and th if the parents want to watch T_V_ , up {disfmarker} they comeup with their modules ,Marketing: Mm hmm hmm hmm .Industrial Designer: they just plug in itUser Interface: Yeah {vocalsound}Industrial Designer: and they can have all the control they want here .User Interface:Mm .Industrial Designer: We also have this module for uh old people with big buttons , clearly labelled ,User Interface: Hmm . {vocalsound}Industrial Designer: and it acts like the previous one ,User Interface: Yeah.Industrial Designer: you just plug in and it works .User Interface: {vocalsound} Yeah {vocalsound}Marketing: Mm-hmm .User Interface: the i the idea the the conceptual idea is that simplicity and powerful . Simplicitymeaning that we have few buttons , powerful is that all the controls with {vocalsound} the one you saw we saw earlier in the meetings with lots of buttons n but here you only have few buttons but you retain the mmthe same powerful functionalities . But in addition with simplicity . So that's the best idea , the cond that that's our uh an innovation um uh i in this uh design here {vocalsound} .Project Manager: Mm-hmm .UserInterface: Okay now we come to other important features that I did not tell you . The first one is the speech recogniser , again it's detachable or add-on . And then we also have security feature for example this here{disfmarker} oop {vocalsound}Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}User Interface: it's very robust {gap} , it doesn't break and the material , what's the material again ?Industrial Designer: The titaniumProject Manager:Titanium .Industrial Designer: and so it's very uh {disfmarker}User Interface: Again uh and the battery life is uh is an is an endurable one , again because this is A_A_ batteries you can choose the types of battery youwant .Marketing: Yeah that's fine .User Interface: Lithium-ion may be a good one , but you can replace it with cheaper one , again you pay for what you get , and then um y the other p points are robust andmisplacement reminder . So when you finish watching your T_V_ {vocalsound} and you the you t you turn off the T_V_ , uh and then there's this message coming out that uh please put that back to the charger , so sothat's the {disfmarker} or is it {disfmarker}Marketing: Okay .User Interface: that's the reminder part . Yeah and um {disfmarker} And it also use a programmable channel and vocabulary , so we didn't define thevocabulary so it's up to the user to defineMarketing: Mm hmm hmm hmm .User Interface: so {disfmarker} sorry ? {vocalsound}Project Manager: {vocalsound}Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}Marketing:{vocalsound}User Interface: And then uh because of the chil because children are using the device so we have also a a {gap} of T_V_ programmes by genre , and this can be used by the adult or by the children . Soinstead of choosing the channel you are choosing the T_V_ contents of the night . So it's pretty powerful , and that's that's why the num buttons are reduced , because of this feature . Yeah . And {vocalsound} and forthe materials that is cheap to produce I think uh it's quite clear from {disfmarker} yeah {vocalsound} .Project Manager: {gap}User Interface: And also like the {gap} and the fancy designs yeah .Project Manager: Whatwhat's {disfmarker}User Interface: Maybe we can improve more on the design but {vocalsound}Project Manager: Maybe yeah .Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}Project Manager: What's the price to p to produce ?UserInterface: {disfmarker} uh this is the {vocalsound} {disfmarker}Industrial Designer: Well so the price to produce {disfmarker} For uh the simplest one , say we start from four dollars to produce such a device .ProjectManager: With with with the charge ?Industrial Designer: Uh it's about it {disfmarker} The {disfmarker} without without the chargerMarketing: With the charger ?Project Manager: Okay .User Interface: Yeah{vocalsound}Industrial Designer: it's about uh well two dollars to produce uh the microphone and speech recognition systems .User Interface: {vocalsound}Industrial Designer: Two dollars for the uh for the add-onmodules , and finally three dollars for the charger . So if you uh sum up uh everything wi with the L_C_D_ {vocalsound} , which costs two dollar , you have two plus four plus four plus two plus two .User Interface:{vocalsound} Yeah .Project Manager: We don't have charger . {vocalsound} {vocalsound}Marketing: {vocalsound} I think we can use Excel {vocalsound} .Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} It's about {vocalsound}{disfmarker}Project Manager: We don't have all the options {vocalsound} .Industrial Designer: so the total cost if you if you want all the fuct functionalities will be about uh fifteen dollars .Project Manager: Charger wedon't have charger here either .User Interface: {vocalsound} Yeah .Project Manager: No it'sIndustrial Designer: But it's just if you want all functionalities .Project Manager: it's below the the the budget .User Interface:Yeah {vocalsound} .Industrial Designer: Excuse me ?Project Manager: It's below the bu the budget .User Interface: {vocalsound}Marketing: Yeah it's a nice inputProject Manager: We {disfmarker}Marketing: but wehave an other inputs from the l public demands .Project Manager: {gap}Marketing: I think we will just have a rough look and then we can make our statements , and we can finalise the product based on this discuUserInterface: Yeah .Industrial Designer: Yeah .Marketing: I think we can just go to my presentation then . We can wind up . Or we could uh come to some f uh final conclusions .User Interface: {vocalsound}Marketing: Sothe marketing made an evaluation criteria and these were some of the findings , and uh in the market the people are not really interested with L_C_D_ , without L_C_D_ , with speech recognition interface , or withoutspeech recognition interface , but most of the people what they are interested is {disfmarker} first thing is , they want to have an fancy look and feel , it should be very fancy with colourful and uh very handy to hold.User Interface: {vocalsound} Mm .Marketing: And the second thing is it should be much more technologically innovative .User Interface: {vocalsound}Marketing: Of course in that we could put L_C_D_ or recognitionto be more technologically innovative . And the third one is easy to use .User Interface: Mm .Industrial Designer: Well I think that the technical in innovation is is in the product itself since we haven't yet a remote whoare allowing to to choose interactively with the T_V_ screen uh uh with just four buttons .Marketing: Okay and if we go to the next slide , here you can find {disfmarker} these are the latest fashion updates , and so this{disfmarker} in Paris and Milan {gap} they have detected this trends that the this year it's going to be an year of fruit and vegetable , so people are really interested to see if they have an remote in the shape of thefruit or a vegetable , or whatever they like .User Interface: Spongy spongy . Mm mm .Marketing: So I think it should be much more customised to make a different uh shapes .User Interface: Mm {vocalsound} mm.Marketing: And the second thing is , and if the material , they really do not want it to be very hard , as in the case of very pl plastic or titanium , it should be somewhat spongy .User Interface: But the the problem isthat uh {vocalsound} {disfmarker} is it robust to mishandling ?Industrial Designer: Okay .User Interface: We have {disfmarker} you should find a material that is robust at the same time spongy {vocalsound}.Industrial Designer: A sponge . {vocalsound}Marketing: Yeah so uh {vocalsound} so finally we have these three criterias .User Interface: Spongy {vocalsound} .Marketing: One is fancy look , second is innovative , andthird is easy to use .User Interface: {vocalsound}Marketing: {vocalsound} So these are the f uh three criteria on which we are going to build our remote .User Interface: Mm-hmm .Marketing: So {disfmarker} and wehave an evaluation criteria for each one of these ,Industrial Designer: Hmm .Marketing: say that we have a seven point scale , from one to seven ,User Interface: Mm-hmm .Marketing: and for each of the product youcould just give me the scale according to this .User Interface: Mm .Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}Marketing: So now you have with L_C_D_ and without L_C_D_ ,User Interface: Mm .Marketing: so on this scale , if it


Project Manager: So welcome . The first kick-off meeting . What shall we do ? First the opening , then the rest . What are we going to do . We m have to make a new remote control .Industrial Designer:{vocalsound}Project Manager: It has to be original , trendy and user-friendly . So we will get back th on that . First we have to make a functional design . After that we have to make a conceptual design , and then afterthat a detailed design . So we'll discuss that later . First we have a look at {gap} . So first to {disfmarker} we have to make a small painting . What have {disfmarker} do we have to do . First you can save thedocuments . We have to do that every time we make something . You can print it . No . And we have to use {vocalsound} the pen and the eraser . So {disfmarker} Now . We all have to use this one .IndustrialDesigner: {vocalsound}Project Manager: You have to make your own favourite animal .Marketing: {vocalsound}Project Manager: So I'll make an example .Marketing: Yep .Project Manager: First don't touch that things.Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}Project Manager: {vocalsound} You can use the pen . And then you can make {vocalsound} um something .Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Nice .Marketing: {vocalsound}{vocalsound}Project Manager: {vocalsound} Um you can change some things .Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}Project Manager: Um format , line , and change it . {gap} {disfmarker} {vocalsound} {vocalsound} Andyou can change the colour .User Interface: {vocalsound}Marketing: {vocalsound}Industrial Designer: An elephant . {vocalsound}Project Manager: {vocalsound} So that's it . {vocalsound}User Interface:{vocalsound}Marketing: {vocalsound}Project Manager: So {disfmarker} So and after it you have to save it .Marketing: {vocalsound}Project Manager: Now we can make a new one .Marketing: Okay .Project Manager:You have to paint now . {vocalsound} So you're next .Marketing: Oh . {vocalsound}User Interface: {vocalsound}Industrial Designer: 'Kay .Marketing: Well we will try . Where it going ?Industrial Designer: {gap} .UserInterface: Hmm . That's uh strange . {vocalsound}Industrial Designer: {gap} .Project Manager: What is going on ?Industrial Designer: {gap} pop-ups .Project Manager: What are you {disfmarker} What ?Marketing:Hmm .Project Manager: {vocalsound}Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}Marketing: {vocalsound}Project Manager: {gap} .Marketing: {vocalsound}Industrial Designer: What is this , Pictionary .Marketing:{vocalsound}Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}Marketing: Uh {disfmarker}Project Manager: Um {disfmarker}Industrial Designer: Uh a bird .Project Manager: Is a {disfmarker} It is a {disfmarker} It is a{disfmarker}Industrial Designer: Bird .Project Manager: A duck .Marketing: {vocalsound}Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}Marketing: Mm .Project Manager: {vocalsound}Marketing: So {disfmarker} Now save?Project Manager: Yes .Industrial Designer: Yeah .Project Manager: Hmm .Marketing: Now uh blank ?Project Manager: Blank , yes .User Interface: Yeah .Marketing: Yeah .Project Manager: Okay next one .{vocalsound}Marketing: {vocalsound}User Interface: Okay . Let's try this . Uh {disfmarker}Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Whoo .Marketing: Yeah , yeah .User Interface: {vocalsound} Um . Mm-hmm . Mm .ProjectManager: {vocalsound} Oh . {vocalsound}Industrial Designer: Oh not . Oh . {vocalsound}User Interface: {vocalsound}Marketing: {vocalsound}Industrial Designer: Okay . Okay . Yeah . No problem .Marketing:{vocalsound}Industrial Designer: Shit happens . {vocalsound}Marketing: {vocalsound} {vocalsound} I'm not getting anything uh on my screen now . Okay .Industrial Designer: A parrot . Ish .Marketing: Wow . Oh.Project Manager: {vocalsound}Marketing: {vocalsound}Industrial Designer: He did it before .Marketing: {vocalsound}User Interface: {vocalsound}Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}Marketing: {vocalsound}IndustrialDesigner: {vocalsound}Project Manager: {vocalsound}User Interface: Uh {disfmarker}Project Manager: {vocalsound} {vocalsound}Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}User Interface: No , no . Yeah . Okay .Marketing:{vocalsound} Nice .Project Manager: Very good .Industrial Designer: Oh .User Interface: Uh blank .Industrial Designer: Thank you .Project Manager: {vocalsound} {vocalsound}User Interface: {vocalsound}Marketing:{vocalsound}Project Manager: Okay . Very good . So um you can always go back . {gap} So {disfmarker}Marketing: {vocalsound}Project Manager: {vocalsound} That's it . So that was two . Now next . The budget .The b Uh we will sell the t at twenty five Euros . And we have only twenty of twelve and a half Euro to make it . So {vocalsound} now we have to think about what we will make . First I wanna hear from you . Uh whatare your experiences with remote controls . So {disfmarker}Industrial Designer: Uh I will start .Project Manager: F first {gap} .Industrial Designer: Uh {disfmarker} {gap}Marketing: {vocalsound}Industrial Designer:Big one , they are uh not easy to use . Um I have one set and uh a remote control , when I dropped it , uh it broke . So that won't be uh our goal , I think .User Interface: No .Industrial Designer: And uh g big buttons ,{vocalsound} m uh that's easier to use than uh {disfmarker} I think . Not all the small buttons , you don't know {disfmarker}Project Manager: Is this positive or negative , that uh big buttons ?Industrial Designer: Bigbuttons , positive .Project Manager: Positive .Industrial Designer: All all small buttons like when you have uh like a hundred buttons on your remote control , you won't know what they're working for .Project Manager:Okay . What are your experiences ?User Interface: Uh well I think the the the goal of a remote control is that it's it it has an influence on the T_V_ set .Project Manager: Mm .User Interface: And that it controls thechannels and the the volume . And uh I I I think it's positive if there's a a LED uh uh a LED on the corner of the of the remote . So that you know it s it still has batteries on it {disfmarker} in it . And that if you push thebutton the LED uh gives a light , and uh and you see that it's working . And uh yeah . Uh {disfmarker}Project Manager: So and do they always have that ?User Interface: Yeah , but {disfmarker} No no no . But I{disfmarker} my my experience is that it it it's convenient to have that .Project Manager: It's easy to you .User Interface: Yeah . Yeah .Project Manager: Okay . 'Kay .Marketing: Uh at home we have a T_V_ , a video uhrecorder , a D_V_D_ player , and a satellite receiver . We have uh four distinctive remote controls for that .Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Thank you .Marketing: That's not really ea easy .Industrial Designer: Helpalso . {vocalsound} Thank you .Marketing: So it would be nice if we have one for all . And we also had a remote control for our radio set . But um i it it had a lot of buttons on it , and you didn't know which one waswhat . And it was uh uh v {vocalsound} not easy to use . So we n barely used it .Project Manager: Okay so they have too much . So next .User Interface: Hmm .Project Manager: For our own remote control we have tothink how do we make it . So what ideas do you have for it , for the new remote control ? What what does it have to have ? {vocalsound}Industrial Designer: The weight . Not not too heavy .Project Manager: Not tooheavy . Yes .Industrial Designer: Not much buttons .Project Manager: Yeah .Industrial Designer: Bust-free . That when you drop it , it won't break . Like uh some kind of rubber on it . Or hard uh hard plastic . Uhbuttons not too small . Uh something like when you uh lose your uh remote control , sometimes it happen . Uh it between the couch and you can't find it .Project Manager: Yes .Industrial Designer: When you push a buta button on the T_V_ , then you hear some {gap} {disfmarker} uh some sort of bleep .User Interface: {vocalsound}Project Manager: Like a phone .Industrial Designer: And then you uh , hey there there's remotecontrol .Project Manager: Okay .Marketing: Yeah .Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}User Interface: {vocalsound} Yeah .Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}Project Manager: So ,Industrial Designer: Next .ProjectManager: that's {gap} .User Interface: Yeah well that's {disfmarker} that are good ideas . Uh {disfmarker} Yeah well the LED on the corner , that that indicates that it's working . If you push a button . Um{disfmarker} Yeah . And looking on the budget , not too expensive uh material . So probably plastic or something . Uh {disfmarker}Project Manager: Okay .Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}Marketing: Yeah I think ituh {disfmarker} from a marketing point of view , it also has to look nice . Or you won't sell it .Project Manager: Yes .Marketing: And um yeah uh on our website we can see what products we already have . And it shouldwork with as many uh as possible of them .Project Manager: Okay . This is {disfmarker} It has to be compatible with other things .Marketing: Yes .Project Manager: Okay .Industrial Designer: I have one more idea .Just popped up .Project Manager: Yes ?Industrial Designer: Uh it it won't take a lot of batteries . So you don't {disfmarker} won't have to change the batteries uh once a week or uh once every two weeks .ProjectManager: No battery use . So more ideas ?User Interface: Mm no .Project Manager: No okay . It's only the first ideas . So {vocalsound} uh what are we going to do now is {disfmarker} Next meeting is in half an h hour. Uh {disfmarker} {vocalsound} Okay . Next meeting , half an hour . Um , what you have to do . Well look on your {gap} . And {disfmarker} Next instructions you'll get in your email . So {disfmarker} This is the firstmeeting . See you later in half an hour .User Interface: Yes .Industrial Designer: Okay . Thank you .Marketing: Okay .


Lynne Neagle AM: Good morning, everyone. Welcome to the Children, Young People and Education Committee. We've received apologies for absence from Suzy Davies, and I'm very pleased to welcome Angela Burns,who is substituting for Suzy this morning. We've also received apologies from Dawn Bowden. Can I also welcome Siân Gwenllian to the meeting? Siân is joining us from her constituency office via video-conference. CanI ask Members if they've got any declarations of interest, please? Hefin.Hefin David AM: Apologies. I'm currently registered as an associate lecturer at Cardiff Metropolitan University, although I haven't done any workfor them for some time.Lynne Neagle AM: Okay. Thank you very much. We'll move on, then, to item 2 this morning, which is our evidence session on the higher education new academic year allocations. I'm verypleased to welcome David Blaney, who is chief executive of the Higher Education Funding Council for Wales, and Bethan Owen, who is deputy chief executive of HEFCW. Thank you, both, for attending this morning.We're looking forward to hearing what you've got to say. If you're happy, we'll go straight into questions from Members, and the first questions are from Angela Burns.Angela Burns AM: Good morning. Thank you verymuch, indeed. I just wanted to talk about, really, the financial sustainability of the higher education sector because, as we know, there's been all sorts of things going on in the press. So, can I just start with, actually,quite a technical question and ask you what the financial indicators look like for the universities here in Wales, and are there particular indicators that are really flashing warning signals to you?Dr David Blaney: Well,shall I just start with a couple of contextualising comments and Bethan can come in then with some detail? It's undeniably the case there are financial challenges facing our universities. They result from three maincauses: one is the impact of the demographic dip of 18-year-olds, which is deeper and longer in Wales than it is elsewhere in the UK. There are increased pension costs and, actually, increased costs generally. And, ofcourse, we also have current uncertainty as a result of the Augar review in England, and whether that might play into Wales, and also Brexit. These challenges are not unique to Wales; the majority of the UK universitiesare actually taking out cost one way or another. So, this is not a Welsh issue. Before the Diamond review of fees and funding in Wales, there was a pre-existing funding gap in resource between England and Wales, andeven now, that's still the case. So, Welsh higher education institutions are approximately £40 million worse off than they would be in the English system. That's a challenge, and that is a result from a political decision toinvest in students, and that's fine. The money's gone into the system but it hasn't gone into universities, necessarily. So, these are serious challenges for institutions to manage, but I think it is a managed situation.We're not seeing a crisis; we are seeing some real challenges, and there is a distinction, I think, between—. We have to understand, though, that taking out cost to balance the books has a detrimental effect on thecapacity. Obviously it impacts on the people who lose their jobs immediately, but there's a medium to longer term impact on the capacity of the system to deliver for Wales. They are taking out capacity; they're notcutting at fat now, they're cutting out core capacity. And so, the range of the curriculum, the range of research and innovation, the range of the contribution that universities can make will be diminished by that. Andagainst that backdrop, the introduction of the Diamond reforms is hugely important—delivery of that is going to be really important—and we are really pleased to see the Minister able to meet her commitments inrespect of that. The Diamond money is coming in. This forthcoming year will be the first year we see an increase in the resource, through us, to higher education. And the projections in future years are better still, andthat will be extremely important. The performance of the sector is very good; we had the national student survey results out yesterday. Wales is still the best in the UK, which is excellent. We have the best impact fromresearch in Wales across the UK. So, all of that is very positive, but that is also being done at some cost. There are some very tired staff in universities, and we've seen some stuff in the press recently about some of theimpact of stress there as well.Angela Burns AM: Can I bring you back to the financial element of that? Can I just ask a question: what are the university reserves looking like at present?Dr David Blaney: Here, I refer tomy learned friend.Bethan Owen: The reserves are a measure. There's a difference between the distributable reserves—I don't have those numbers before me, but looking at reserves, what is more important are thosereserves that are available as cash or liquid cash. So, universities have reserves, but a large amount of that is tied up in their estates, so they're not immediately realisable. So, one of the key measures that we'relooking at, which is even more important than surpluses and deficit, is the operating cash that our universities are generating at the moment. When we look at operating cash in 2017-18, they were generating, as apercentage of income, about 7.6 per cent, which contrasts with nearly 10 per cent for the same year for English institutions. And that represents their capacity to generate surplus cash to meet their costs, which now,increasingly, include the costs of servicing their borrowings. So, again, because capital funding has not been as available to universities as it was, they've invested in their estates and that's largely been funded byborrowings. The costs of those borrowings have to be met on an annual basis, so that's becoming an increasing proportion of the operating cash that universities have.Angela Burns AM: I just asked that questionbecause I know that about four years ago, the universities were sitting on substantial reserves and were less than keen to deploy them back into actually using them for the students—it was more about building up thewar chest, if you like, of the universities. And I just really wanted to have an understanding of how that picture might have changed over the last four years and are they actually skinnier cats now, rather thanbefore.Bethan Owen: We can get you that analysis, but even four years ago, I think the definition of exactly what's meant by reserves, it's really important to look at what are distributable reserves as opposed to theassets that universities have.Angela Burns AM: Yes, I do understand the difference.Bethan Owen: And, there are also differences in the way that universities have secured funding for investing in their estates. So, forexample, Cardiff University have had a bond rather than borrowing, which you draw down as you're spending. So, in the short term, the reserves of Cardiff will appear as though they have significant cash balances, butall of those are restricted for investment in the estate and, over the next two or three years, will be utilised for that.Angela Burns AM: So, overall, you're painting a picture of a sector that's under a significant degree offinancial stress, and this is obviously using your key financial indicators. Do you monitor each and every university, or do you wait for them to come back and tell you what their situation is?Bethan Owen: We monitor,we receive forecasts, five-year forecasts, and we meet frequently with all our universities now. It varies, depending on the risks of the universities, as to how frequently we meet, but we're actually meeting with everyuniversity because even the forecast that we received last July, the changes, even in the 12-month period, are significant enough for us to need a better understanding of what the latest position is. The forecasts, if Ijust run through—. We had a sector that, in 2017-18, had a deficit. Although it had a turnover and income of £1.5 billion, which had increased, nonetheless it had a small deficit of 0.4 per cent of income in 2017-18,which was an improvement on the deficit the year before of 1.7 per cent, but notably, again, the sector in England were looking at surpluses of 3 per cent to 4 per cent in the same period. The forecasts that we had thistime last year were indicating that, for 2018-19, we should have a sector that's roughly in a break-even position, but that has to be caveated with waiting for new forecasts in July, where there will have to be areflection of the pension costs, and there have been significant changes in pension costs, both for the teachers' pension scheme and the universities' superannuation scheme as well, and those will be significantcosts that universities have to build into their forecasts at a time when their income, certainly their fee income, is not increasing, and that is the challenge.Angela Burns AM: Are we going to lose any universities in thenext couple of years?Dr David Blaney: I don't think so. As I said earlier on, we're not seeing a crisis, we're seeing really challenging circumstances for institutions to manage. At the moment, our sense is they aremanaging them, so one of the things we try to do is to make sure that, insofar as we can see it, we are making sure that the institutions are alert to the challenges they're facing, and are actually engaging thosechallenges properly, and we are seeing that at the moment. So I think what we will see if the pressure continues unabated is more costs being taken out, so more jobs being lost, more capacity being lost, but that's notthe same as falling over. I don't see people falling over. There is always the possibility of structural change within the sector, and that might be one of the solutions that institutions think about, but it's not a policyposition, and it's not always a good short-term response to crisis anyway, actually. But I think, as I say, we're in a managed situation, but the challenges are quite acute. But I don't see an institution falling over in theforeseeable future.Angela Burns AM: When you talk about structural change, are you referring to the fact that certain offshoots or divisions might close? I bring this up because I'm the Assembly Member for CarmarthenWest and South Pembrokeshire, and I have had multiple representations from students, and their parents, who are about to go to Lampeter and who've been told that courses are being restructured, there's a massivestaff loss, and they have concerns about whether the three-year commitment they're about to make to a course is going to be able to be sustained. So I am trying to drill down a little bit, because I think it's only fair forthe students to know what they're up against, and also it's a bit like in the great depression—you can start a run on something, can't you? Because if enough people believe it, then suddenly enough people will stopgoing to what is an excellent little university, really top-quality in medieval literature, in archaeology. And I'm just talking about one, but I know there are problems in other universities around Wales, so I just wonderedif you could comment on that and also what processes you as HEFCW might have in place to protect any student who does find themselves in a situation where their course appears to be disappearing before theireyes.Dr David Blaney: So, there's quite a lot in that question, actually. Let me try not to forget any of the elements. First of all, your comment about causing a run is a serious consideration. So, if we look at the debatethat happened in the Senedd last week, from my reading of the transcript, it was actually quite a balanced debate where pretty much every contributor made reference to the contribution that higher education ismaking. There was reference to the national student survey scores, and in many ways Wales is the best place in the UK to come and be a student, because you are looked after properly in Wales. But there was also aperfectly legitimate exploration of whether or not there's a crisis, and if you look at the way in which that was represented in the media, the crisis bit stuck and the rest of it didn't. At the point where the sector is tryingvery hard to recruit students, it's really quite unhelpful that you get that sort of representation. So we do need to make sure, I think, all of us, that we try to avoid a situation where there can be media amplification of aproblem that's not actually as acute as the media are portraying it, and that is very harsh. I'm not being critical of the political process here, but it has ripples and we do need to be careful that we don't start a run onthis. In terms of the specifics at Lampeter, we understand that there are no plans to close any of the departments, and there certainly will not be plans to pull the rug out from under continuing students. That is just notwhat institutions do. So there's an absolute obligation on them to meet their commitments, and that's a contractual obligation anyway, so it's a legal obligation. But we also have a quality machinery that we operatewhere we would expect institutions to be able to demonstrate that they've put in place appropriate arrangements to ensure that students can finish their programmes of study. So they're not going to be recruitingstudents to programmes that they're not planning to continue—they just are not going to do that. And if you think about it in a market context, it would be suicidal for a university to treat their students like that.AngelaBurns AM: But I have to ask these questions because the auditor was very clear that there was a material uncertainty in Trinity Saint David's financial plans.Dr David Blaney: Yes, I understand that, so let’s come back tothe material uncertainty. [Interruption.] No, I understand, and that's fine. What I'm hoping to try and express is that we have absolute confidence that the institutions will not do the dirty on their students. They willlook after their students and if they're recruiting to programmes, they are recruiting to programmes that they are planning to run, and run through to completion. And the expectations that we place on them in terms ofour quality assurance machinery is precisely that—when they are engaged in portfolio change, they have to look after the interest of the students that they currently have. In terms of our oversight and monitoring, ourprimary consideration, again, is the interest of the students. They are the people who have, in many ways, least influence over what happens in terms of the way an institution is managed. Although, they do have avoice and, actually, the arrangements for the student voice in Wales are, again, better than elsewhere in the UK. But, nonetheless, we do not wish to see students becoming innocent victims of difficulties ofmanagement and financing. And so that is our primary consideration when we're looking at these institutions. Our institutional risk review process is fundamentally designed to make sure that institutions are grapplingwith their problems before they become a crisis. So, we have machinery, which has 70/80 different factors and hundreds of questions that we ask twice a year, to interrogate the performance of the institutions and tomake sure that we are seeing them managing the issues that they're facing. So, it's not the challenges you face, it's the way you face your challenges—it's a cliché—and, at the moment, they are managing them, but ifwe were in any way concerned that they weren't, the people who are most at risk in that context are the students and we will be intervening to make sure that they were cited, and we do intervene when we haveto.Angela Burns AM: Well, following on from what you said, I've just got two really specific technical questions, then, to ask, because you said that you look across the whole scope to make sure that they are meeting allof their correct liquidity ratios and so on. So, considering how much is invested in their estates, are you happy that each university's estates strategy and its financing is prudent and has appropriate governing-bodyoversight in place?Dr David Blaney: Yes, so the estates strategies that institutions operate are overseen by either the full governing body or relevant sub-committees in respect of every institution, so there is propergovernance oversight. And in all of those instances, there is staff and student engagement as well in the strategic approach on estates. So, the machinery is in place—Angela Burns AM: Because it's the big thing thatdrives most of university borrowing, isn't it?Dr David Blaney: Indeed, it is.Angela Burns AM: So, if our universities are on a sticky wicket, we just need to know that the borrowing that they're undertaking is absolutelyprudently assessed and is appropriate. So, as long as you're content, if I can hear you say that—[Laughter.]Dr David Blaney: Okay. We're content on two fronts: one is that the governance machinery within theinstitutions is structured appropriately to look at that, but also that if the institutions are wanting to engage in anything other than relatively trivial borrowing, they have to get our consent as well. And what we don't dois second-guess everything, but what we do do is make sure that the governing body, or its relevant committees, have been asking the right questions. So, there are two bits to this.Angela Burns AM: Andthen—sorry.Bethan Owen: Can I just add to that, then?Angela Burns AM: Yes, of course.Bethan Owen: In asking for the forecasts, we have reinforced this year the importance of universities looking at differentscenarios. So, to be looking at the demographic and maybe in the past, where there's potentially been growth in the system and universities have built that into their forecast, we have explicitly asked this year that weare provided—not just the governing body—with the scenario where there is no growth in the income. That's not the core forecast, but a scenario, so that it's quite clear how reliant the forecasts are on that growth, andif that growth doesn't come through, what the contingency plans are for ensuring that all the cost commitments can be met. And we should probably just differentiate between—we have a role before borrowings areentered into, but all the best forecasts in the world can never quite predict, certainly what's happened in the last two years, probably, in universities. So, there are significant borrowings that are now committed to andthe key measures we are looking at are universities' capacity to meet their covenants and their repayments under those borrowings, because that's essential for maintaining their liquidity.Angela Burns AM: Whichactually, neatly, thank you, brings me to my last question, which is: have any universities broken those loan covenants or been close to breaking them, unable to pay their borrowings as and when they fall due?BethanOwen: There was a significant change in accounting standards in 2015, financial reporting standard 102, so most universities had to renegotiate their covenants, but it was because the accounts were looking verydifferent. The accounting standards brought about changes in how income was recognised and how some service concession arrangements, largely student accommodation arrangements, and pension costs,significantly, were recognised in the accounts. So, most universities have had to renegotiate covenants, but we're not aware of any who've had to renegotiate due to covenant breaches, other than one which theUniversity of Wales Trinity Saint David disclosed in their financial statements—that they did need to renegotiate their financing arrangements, which they have done earlier this year, and they have now negotiated newcovenants. It's a core part of financial management in universities now that you manage your relationship with your lender as well as with us. Breaching covenants in themselves is different to doing that with yourlender being unaware and the factors being within your control. So, again, from that perspective, we have the covenants built into our forecasts, we require the forecasts to show how the university are planning to bewithin their covenants. The nature of those covenants vary, but most of them require a measure of cash flow, a ratio between the cash generated and the cost of debt, so there is close monitoring that is requiredbecause of the borrowing in the system, as well as our ongoing monitoring as well.Angela Burns AM: Thank you, Bethan.Lynne Neagle AM: Thank you. Just before we move on to Hefin David, can I just ask you whatyour view, then, is on the statement included by auditors in the accounts of Trinity Saint David that there is material uncertainty?Bethan Owen: Yes, I'll pick up on that. The material uncertainty largely relates—there isa note in the accounts that explains the factors that are being taken into account, but it largely relates to some significant cash receipts that have been subject to timing delays and the fact that the timing of these isessentially outside the control of the institution. The main delay relates to the receipt of funding for the Egin project, which was due to be received from the Swansea city deal. That funding has been delayed, but the