Project Manager: So uh good morning .User Interface: Morning .Marketing: Morning .Project Manager: I see you all find your places .Industrial Designer: Morning .Project Manager: Is everybody sitting on the right place? Yeah ?Marketing: Yep .Project Manager: I guess so . So {disfmarker} Let's see . First I will introduce myself . I don't know if uh {disfmarker} if everybody knows me , so I'm Bart ,Marketing: My name's Frank .ProjectManager: hello . Hello .User Interface: I'm {gap} .Project Manager: Bart . Hello . Hello . Bart .Industrial Designer: {gap}Project Manager: Welcome .Marketing: Thank you .Project Manager: Uh let's see . Uh let's startoff um with a little presentation . Uh Now first I'll tell you a little bit about the setting . You can see there are a few cameras here . They'll record uh our actions and you'll have wires and microphones that will recordyour voice . Uh there are also some microphones there but th um you don't have to pay a lot of attention on those , because it will uh disappear when you don't attend to it . So is there a project documents folder ?There are some notes in it already I see , some documents . Uh I'll start with the presentation kick off . Is being modified by the administrator . Uh okay {vocalsound} .User Interface: {vocalsound}Marketing:{vocalsound} Hmm , that's interesting .Project Manager: Let's do it read only . Well I don't know if you've noticed , but uh we're working for Real Reaction . Uh it's a company in uh electronics . We put fashion inelectronics , uh we make it work , uh we put a lot of effort in design and in the product itself . I'm Bart {gap} the project manager so I'll direct you through the project . This is our agenda . {vocalsound} Uh we haveour opening acquaintance , tool training , project plan description closing .Marketing: {vocalsound}Project Manager: Uh maybe I can sit down , then I can take some notes or {disfmarker} Let's see . Maybe you cantake the minutes once in a while .Marketing: Sure .Project Manager: I dunno it's not a lot of work , but just uh if you hear something uh you can write down , just write it down . Uh as you can see uh it's the opening ,aquaintance tool training . Aquaintance is a point we've done a bit . Um have you all seen the corporate website already ? Yeah .User Interface: Yep .Marketing: Yep . Visit it .Project Manager: Have you seen any flawsin it ? I think I found one . {vocalsound} No ?User Interface: Hmm ?Marketing: Can't say I paid much attention to it ,Project Manager: I can see if it works this way . No , it doesn't work here .Industrial Designer:{vocalsound}User Interface: {vocalsound}Project Manager: Okay no problem . But um on the corporate information side there's a th uh {disfmarker} there was Real Remote instead of Real Reaction .Marketing: Ohyeah .Project Manager: Real Remote is not really the company we're {disfmarker} we are , but it's just a little {gap} fault .User Interface: Okay . Yeah .Project Manager: Um okay , what are we going to do ?{vocalsound} Uh our project aim is as you can see a new remote control . It has to be original , trendy , and user friendly . So these are uh the points why uh we also hired you . {vocalsound} We've got the MarketingExpert for uh the trendy and user friendly look .Marketing: Okay .Project Manager: And Industrial Designer uh there's also user friendly and a bit original . {vocalsound} And we've got our User Interface Designer .UserInterface: Yep .Project Manager: He's also uh {disfmarker} That's about the new remote control . Uh project method um is uh there are three phases we are going through . First is functional des uh design , individualwork , meetings . After the functional design , then the conceptual design and the detailed design . {vocalsound} I had some role indications on here . But I think you know it already by yourself . The IndustrialDesigner is going to work on the working design , uh components design and a bit of the look and feel design . Uh the User Interface Designer is going to do the technical function design , user interface concept anduser interface design . {vocalsound} And the marketing expert is doing a little bit of user requirement specification , trend watching and project {disfmarker} uh product ev evaluation . So that's a bit what you're goingto do . But that will be all worked out in uh other meetings .Marketing: {vocalsound}Project Manager: Then we've got our first tool training . {vocalsound} We are going to work with a lot of high-tech tools here , so it'sab it's handy if we have a little bit of training first . As you can see we've got the smart boards here and here in the white board . Um in the white board here there's a little tool bar on this side . Here are some functions. You can save . N uh these functions we don't have anything to do with , only undo , you can undo a little uh piece of drawing . A blank new document for each person . Uh select a pen , eraser . Capture we don't haveto do anything with . Uh then we've got our pen . This pen . It's really funny because you can draw with it on this page um in the {disfmarker} think it is form of .Marketing: 'Kay .Project Manager: You can also selectthe current colour and the line width . But then first you have to select the pen function .User Interface: Hmm .Project Manager: But we're going to work with it in a minute . So okay . Uh that's very simple and it's easyto uh draw your findings and drawings on there . {vocalsound} Uh then a short thing about documents . We've got our shared folder , project {gap} project {disfmarker} what was it ? Project documents {gap} I think .But all you will found that already because there are a lot of documents in it already , so it will be okay . And these are available on the smart boards as well , so if you have a document you wanna show , just open itfrom the folder .User Interface: Okay . Yeah .Project Manager: Here is a simple tool bar . It's what I just said , it's save , print , move back or forward one page . You can switch between the different drawings . Andthen we're going to try out the white board .Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}Project Manager: {vocalsound} So as you can see we g all {vocalsound} going to draw a animal . {vocalsound} Just to uh uh just to get abit familiar with it .User Interface: {vocalsound}Project Manager: {vocalsound} {vocalsound} Mouse wasn't running away . {vocalsound}Marketing: {vocalsound}User Interface: {vocalsound}Marketing: That wasinteresting .Project Manager: Is everybody {disfmarker} is anybody playing with the mouse ? No .Marketing: {vocalsound} Innocent .Project Manager: Okay . {vocalsound}User Interface: {vocalsound}ProjectManager: We're going to uh draw animal . {vocalsound} And uh just sum up a few of its favourite characteristics .Marketing: {vocalsound}Project Manager: Um the only thing we have to uh look after is that we usedifferent colours , and different line width .Marketing: {vocalsound} {vocalsound}Project Manager: Uh there's {disfmarker} I can start from now . I will . You can use this pen by holding it like a like a little child .Because if you hold it like this , the sensors will get blocked and then the drawing won't get good .User Interface: Okay .Marketing: 'Kay .Project Manager: Another thing is you have to be uh a bit slow . 'Cause if you'regoing to draw like really fast then um the pen won't hold up . So we choose form of current colour uh I think grey is appropriate . Then the line width . I think seven will be nice . Now you'll see my drawing capabilities.User Interface: {vocalsound}Project Manager: These are not very much , but uh {disfmarker} Uh , see you have to do it real slow . {vocalsound} Oh {gap}Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}Project Manager:{vocalsound}User Interface: {vocalsound}Marketing: {vocalsound}User Interface: Sure .Project Manager: Ah I was trying to draw a dolphin ,User Interface: {vocalsound} {vocalsound}Project Manager: but I think hisnose has to be a little bit {disfmarker}Marketing: {vocalsound}User Interface: {vocalsound}Project Manager: But it's close .Marketing: I'm thinking about a swordfish .Project Manager: So what {disfmarker} yeah it's{disfmarker} this is bit of the swordfish .User Interface: Yeah . Yeah .Marketing: {vocalsound}Project Manager: Yeah , he hasn't got an eye .User Interface: {gap} {vocalsound}Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}Mm-hmm .Project Manager: Woah . {vocalsound} Now we've got another function . We've got the eraser .Marketing: {vocalsound} {vocalsound} .Project Manager: {vocalsound} And then you can undo this easily.Marketing: Meat .Project Manager: Ah it's okay .User Interface: {vocalsound}Project Manager: And I've got to write down a few of its characteristics . Uh is {disfmarker} They've got no text tool , no . Uh .{vocalsound} Okay .User Interface: {vocalsound}Marketing: {vocalsound}Project Manager: This is typically a undo action , I think . {vocalsound}Marketing: Yeah . {vocalsound}Project Manager: Pen . Maybe you haveto hold it a bit upside-down . I think that's it because if you wan ar are going to do it like this then it will be a stripe . But I don't know , I'm just trying . {vocalsound} {vocalsound} This is not my work ,IndustrialDesigner: {vocalsound}Marketing: {vocalsound}Project Manager: okay .Marketing: Hmm .Project Manager: Maybe you have to use {disfmarker} Oh .Marketing: {vocalsound}Project Manager: Uh . I think it's a{disfmarker} it wants to draw a {disfmarker} another animal ? I don't know . It lives for the fun . So {disfmarker} It's my characteristic uh characteristic about the dolphin . It lives for the fun . So now I'm gonna handover the pen on the new blank sheet to you .User Interface: Okay .Marketing: Okay . {vocalsound}User Interface: {vocalsound}Project Manager: Go ahead .Marketing: Thank you . Okay . Gonna use a different linewidth . And I'm gonna draw in black . There . 'Kay , I'm not much of an artist , but here we go .Project Manager: Maybe it's easier to draw the smaller line width , I think . Because this is going a lot better than uh I did.User Interface: Hmm .Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}User Interface: A sheep .Marketing: Mm .Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}Marketing: {vocalsound} Okay .User Interface: {vocalsound}Project Manager:{vocalsound}Marketing: This is my um {disfmarker} Hmm . Sheep .Project Manager: It's nice . {vocalsound}Marketing: With of courseProject Manager: {vocalsound} Uh .Marketing: little blue dot they always getsprayed on their butts .Project Manager: {vocalsound} It's a real dead sheep ,User Interface: {vocalsound}Marketing: There .Project Manager: yeah . {vocalsound} For recognition ,Marketing: Yeah .{vocalsound}Project Manager: yeah , I see . {vocalsound} Um maybe you can also write your name somewhere .Marketing: 'Kay .Project Manager: On just a {disfmarker}Marketing: They are {disfmarker}ProjectManager: {vocalsound}Marketing: Come on . You have to go really slow when you're writing .Project Manager: Yeah .Marketing: They're brilliant animal animals .User Interface: {vocalsound}Industrial Designer:{vocalsound} {vocalsound}Marketing: And that's just a little me thingy . So . Guess I'll pass the pen to our User Interface Designer .Project Manager: Nice .User Interface: Okay . Um I'm just gonna draw its uh head ,but mm {disfmarker} Let's see . Mm . Uh . {gap} Okay . {vocalsound}Project Manager: {vocalsound} Sweet . {vocalsound}User Interface: {vocalsound} Yeah .Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}Marketing: Interesting.User Interface: You know what that is ? Or who ?Industrial Designer: Garfield .Marketing: A rabbit ?User Interface: Ah okay , yeah .Marketing: Garfield . Yeah .User Interface: Just a {disfmarker} Mm . Guess . So uh{disfmarker} {vocalsound} Yeah . That's enough . {vocalsound} Um , you say a blank ,Project Manager: Yeah , just a blank sheet .User Interface: or {disfmarker} Okay .Industrial Designer: Well I was gonna draw acat too , so .Project Manager: {vocalsound}User Interface: {vocalsound}Industrial Designer: I'll just try something else .Project Manager: No . {vocalsound}Industrial Designer: Something different than Garfield .UserInterface: {vocalsound}Industrial Designer: Mine is a bit more skinny . {vocalsound}Project Manager: Yeah , it's pretty skinny cat . {vocalsound}User Interface: {vocalsound}Marketing: Yeah . {vocalsound}IndustrialDesigner: {vocalsound} But uh {disfmarker}Marketing: And the most interesting tail .Project Manager: Is your cat , or did you find him on the street ? {gap} {vocalsound}Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}UserInterface: {vocalsound}Marketing: {vocalsound}Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Well , it's supposed to be a cat . I like cats because uh they are uh independent .Project Manager: Ah . {vocalsound}IndustrialDesigner: The pen . So .Project Manager: Okay . That's pretty clear . So everybody knows how to work with the white board now ? So if you have any ideas or if you wanna draw anything on the white board , justaskMarketing: Yeah .Industrial Designer: The pen . {vocalsound}Project Manager: and go ahead . It's pretty uh easy .Marketing: {vocalsound}Project Manager: {vocalsound} 'Kay .User Interface: {vocalsound}ProjectManager: S {gap}Marketing: We're being haunted .Project Manager: haunted white board . {vocalsound} So we've got the tool uh introduction . We move along to the project finance .Marketing: {vocalsound}ProjectManager: Um as you can see , we um for our remote control , a selling price is uh twenty five Euros . Our selling price . Uh our profit aim is fifty million Euros . Uh that's the least we have to get from our remote controls, so we have to work together to reach our aims . Uh we can do it international , so we have to focus on different kind of users , different kind of cultures , and different kind of trends as well . Um but that's all in thelater stadium . Our production cost um can be maximal twelve and a half Euros , so that's also a point we have to keep in mind , that we won't make remote controls with small televisions inside , and stuff like that . Itwon't work . So just try to remember these points . Selling price twenty five , profit aims fifty million um , but more important is the int international market we're trying to focus on . And production cost uh maximaltwelve and a half Euros . So that's leads us to our little discussion . We've got about five or ten minutes left for discussion . So I'm gonna sit down , I think . It's easier .Marketing: Yeah , you got a message .ProjectManager: I've got a message . Five minutes . Okay ,User Interface: Five minutes , okay .Project Manager: that's uh good timing . {vocalsound} {gap}Marketing: So just on a side note , why is it my laptop is only givingme a black screen ?User Interface: Mm ?Project Manager: Uh maybe you have to say the magic word . {vocalsound}User Interface: {vocalsound}Marketing: {vocalsound} Yeah . Right .Project Manager: Does it doanything ?Marketing: No .Project Manager: Maybe you have to just clap it down ? Mm back up again . No slide show . Hmm .Marketing: It's off now .Project Manager: It's off . Now you have to put it back o Oh yeah .You'll be okay , I think .Marketing: Well , it was on , but {disfmarker}Project Manager: Well it's those laptops . {vocalsound}Marketing: Ah , there we are .Project Manager: Nice . Okay . {vocalsound} But so mm doeseverybody has um experiences with uh remote controls , and I mean not the ordinary mote controls , but also a little bit different ones ? Like you can use for other ?Marketing: {vocalsound}User Interface: Mm . Ohreally ?Project Manager: No ?User Interface: Huh .Project Manager: You ? {vocalsound}User Interface: It's a {disfmarker}Industrial Designer: No , me neither .Marketing: Well , we have a kind of broad T_V_ at home ,and a D_V_D_ player , so we got like a lot of remote controls , one for the T_V_ , one for the video recorder , one for the D_V_D_ player .Project Manager: Ah yeah .Marketing: And I think it's {disfmarker} it would bebest to just make one remote control that can operate them all .Project Manager: Yep . YeahUser Interface: Sure . Yeah .Project Manager: I've I've got one at home . And you can uh program I think eight differentdevices in it , and you can use it for your television , anything else .User Interface: Okay , yeah . Yeah .Project Manager: And it also operates on infra-red , so you have to got the little device inside your room , and thenyou can operate it from the third or th or second floor .User Interface: Okay , yeah .Marketing: OhProject Manager: So that's pretty handy when you have a video recorder or D_V_D_ player downstairs and you've got alink to your T_V_ on the second floor . So that's a pretty handy umMarketing: really .User Interface: Hmm . Oh . Mm-hmm .Marketing: Yeah .Project Manager: thing . {vocalsound} Um but only the I think that if youcan put different kind of devices in one remote control , it makes it a lot easier as well . It's uh {disfmarker}Marketing: Yeah .User Interface: Oh .Project Manager: That's good to remember .Marketing: So I think youcan take minutes again .Project Manager: Yeah , that's nice , I think . {vocalsound}Marketing: Since it's your job .Project Manager: So we've {disfmarker} we want different functionsMarketing: Yeah .Project Manager:uh and we can maybe see if we can do something with the infra-red . But I don't know if that will exceed the production costs . So that uh that's something we have to find out , I think .User Interface: Mm .Marketing:Yeah . But that would be really good if we could do that . {vocalsound}Project Manager: And other functions for a remote control ? Maybe we can make it uh uhUser Interface: Mm-hmm .Marketing: Um . Think it has tobe shock proofUser Interface: Sure , yeah .Marketing: 'causeProject Manager: Shock proof .Marketing: my remote control tends to fall a lot .User Interface: Waterproof , or uh {disfmarker}Project Manager:{vocalsound} Sure .User Interface: Uh , you never no know uh ,Marketing: So {disfmarker}User Interface: I w I mean uh {disfmarker}Project Manager: Waterproof . Okay . So these are our um a few things we canthink of . Um I will put the minutes from this meeting uh in our project folder .User Interface: 'Kay .Marketing: Yeah , one other little thing . Thought it might be handy to put a battery status display on it .ProjectManager: That's a {disfmarker}Marketing: So you can seeProject Manager: battery stays .User Interface: Okay , yeah .Marketing: how much is left in the battery . But they'll also really drag up the production costs , sothink we'll have to see about that too .Project Manager: Yeah .User Interface: Mm .Project Manager: Uh .Marketing: But maybe just a little LED , I don't know .Project Manager: That's an idea as well . Other ideas ?Quick ideas .Industrial Designer: Nope .User Interface: Mm .Industrial Designer: They were all mentioned ,Project Manager: Okay .User Interface: Yeah .Industrial Designer: so {disfmarker}Project Manager: Anyquestions about this uh presentation ? Kick off presentation .Marketing: Um . Nope , don't think so .Project Manager: No ?User Interface: {gap}Project Manager: Okay , then I'll put the minutes from this meeting in theproject folder , and then we can all work . Finish meeting now . {vocalsound} Okay . {vocalsound}Marketing: Okay .Project Manager: And we can all work uh on our own projects . {vocalsound}Marketing: Aye sir.Project Manager: Okay then I'll meet you in about a half an hour , I think .Marketing: Half an hour .Industrial Designer: Okay .Project Manager: So good luck . {vocalsound} {vocalsound}User Interface: Okay.Marketing: Okay .User Interface: Yep .


Project Manager: {vocalsound}Marketing: {vocalsound}Project Manager: Okay . Good afternoon again .User Interface: {vocalsound}Project Manager: So we should have our final meeting about the detail designed of{disfmarker} detail design of the product of the remote control . Um {vocalsound} So here is the agenda for today . Uh uh just going to go quickly through the minutes of the last last uh meeting then we have a ppresentation of prototype of you two , sounds interesting . And we'll have um {vocalsound} presentation of evaluation crit criteria by ou our Marketing Experts . Then we'll have to go through finance evaluation of the ofthe cost of the thing and um hopefully uh we should fit the target o tw of twelve point five uh uh Euro . {vocalsound} Okay . So let's go . Uh if I go quickly through the minutes of the last meeting . {vocalsound} So wewent through th uh w we took this following decisions . No L_C_D_ , no speech recognition technology , okay , we went through a b to a banana look and feel for the remote control . We went through the use of wheelsand but buttons . {vocalsound} And also the use of a basis station for battery ch charging and uh also to um call the to call the mot mote remote control when it is lost . Okay . Um . Good . So guys let {gap} this uhwonderful thing .Industrial Designer: Okay so we can go to the slides .Project Manager: {vocalsound} Oh yeah . Sorry . Um .Industrial Designer: Yeah . Number three . Oh number two sorry .Project Manager: Which is{gap} {disfmarker}Industrial Designer: So final design . Final design . Okay so Michael you can go ahead .User Interface: Yeah so uh following our decision to uh make a yellow {disfmarker} well to make abananaProject Manager: Yeah can you show it to the the camera maybe .User Interface: remote {disfmarker} okay so we actually have a {disfmarker}Industrial Designer: You can pull it out first , maybe .UserInterface: We've {disfmarker} well first first of all we made a an attractive {vocalsound} base station uh with a banana leaf uh look and feel um and uhProject Manager: Mm-hmm . {vocalsound}User Interface: bana sit{disfmarker} the banana sits in there k you know nicely weighted so that it's not gonna tip over and um this is the remote itself , it's kind of it's it's ergonomic , it fits in the hand uh rather well . We've got the two uh{vocalsound} uh scroll wheels here which you know one on the the left for the uh volume and the one on the right for for the channel and uh underneath {vocalsound} we have the uh the turbo button which is in like anice uh trigger position for you know for pressing quite naturally .Project Manager: What's the use uh of the t turbo button already ?User Interface: This is when you when you uh are scrolling the uh {disfmarker}through the channels you can tell it to to skip th past channels that you {disfmarker} quickly rather thProject Manager: Ah yeah yeah an then you stop when you stop it stops .User Interface: Yeah . Well when you stopscrolling the wheel it stops . But normally with uh {disfmarker} it will just uh s stay on each station briefly so you can see the the picture .Industrial Designer: Uh {disfmarker}Project Manager: Uh-huh .IndustrialDesigner: And we we do have one more functionality . If you take the banana as such and uh you press the turbo button , so it switch ons the switch ons the T_V_ .User Interface: The T_V_ yeah .Project Manager:Which one ?User Interface: The s the turbo button .Industrial Designer: The turbo button .Project Manager: Okay .User Interface: So rather than having uh an extra button for um for the on off switch you just use theturbo button .Industrial Designer: Additional button .Marketing: What this button for ?User Interface: This is a teletext button . So once you press that then you get teletextMarketing: Okay .User Interface: and you canuse the the channel selector scroll wheel as uh {disfmarker}Project Manager: To navigate it through th through teletext .User Interface: To navigate yeah .Marketing: But if you want to go to page seven hundred?Industrial Designer: That's right , that's right .User Interface: Yeah .Project Manager: {gap} with the wheel it's easy .Marketing: How manUser Interface: Well then you can you you have like a little uh numberselection thing , you press the {gap} the the teletext button uh to move between uh the fields and then you can just scroll the number back and forth so you have s you go {disfmarker} you scroll to seven and thenzero zero and then you can uh {disfmarker}Marketing: I don't understand it . Can you repeat it ? {vocalsound}User Interface: {vocalsound} Well you can you can press press the teletext buttonIndustrial Designer:{vocalsound}User Interface: and then you then you can you can fIndustrial Designer: So then then both the scroll buttons they are for teletext browsing .Marketing: Yeah .Industrial Designer: And you canteleMarketing: Ah okay okay . Okay . Okay okay .Industrial Designer: yeah ,User Interface: Mm uh {disfmarker}Industrial Designer: once you press the teletext button then the scroll buttons they are more for teletext ,they are no more for channel or vol volume .Marketing: Okay . I see . I see . Okay . Okay .Industrial Designer: Yeah .User Interface: {vocalsound} And this is the uh the infrared uh port .Industrial Designer: That's right.User Interface: Also the top of the banana .Project Manager: Excellent .User Interface: So . And then we haveIndustrial Designer: Yeah .User Interface: in the uh in the base station we have the the button at the frontfor uh for calling the uh the banana .Project Manager: Calling . Excellent .Industrial Designer: Yeah .Project Manager: And the the leaves plays the roles of of antennas ?User Interface: Actually they do .ProjectManager: Oh .User Interface: That's that's yeah that's uh that's form and function in the one in the one uh object .Industrial Designer: Yeah . So it always means , whatever the rays goes by they they get reflected andthen you are having a better coverage .User Interface: {vocalsound}Industrial Designer: It's like antennas .User Interface: Yeah . So .Marketing: {gap}User Interface: But yeah that's um that's just like {disfmarker}that's an attractive um base station .Project Manager: Great . {vocalsound}User Interface: {vocalsound} So .Project Manager: So , what else ?User Interface: Okay .Industrial Designer: And for the power source we arehaving solar cells and rechargeable batteries and this and uh the basis station is going to have the input from the mm power line for for charging the batteries .Marketing: {vocalsound} Is it really weight ? Is it light or{disfmarker}Industrial Designer: It is very light .Project Manager: Yeah , they're light .User Interface: It's it's uh it's about the weight of a banana .Marketing: Okay .Project Manager: {vocalsound}Marketing: Okay.User Interface: You know , to give you the correct look and feel .Project Manager: {gap}Industrial Designer: Yeah .Marketing: OkIndustrial Designer: And we have put these different colours so that people don'tmistake them mistake it as a banana .User Interface: {vocalsound}Industrial Designer: Otherwise it's you know a child comes and so {disfmarker}Marketing: Okay . Yeah yeah yeah , I see . I under I understand .UserInterface: I think a child would try to eat it anyway , so maybe we shouldIndustrial Designer: Yeah .User Interface: consider that . {gap} maybe health and safety aspects .Project Manager: Ah yeah .IndustrialDesigner: Mm-hmm .User Interface: {gap}Industrial Designer: Oh we didn't think of that yet . Yeah .User Interface: Yeah .Project Manager: So for the power source , apparently you still {disfmarker} you you want touse both solar cells and batteries .Industrial Designer: Oh yeah that's right .Project Manager: Uh you mean {disfmarker} okay . So {disfmarker}User Interface: I don't really know if the solar cells are actually necessaryany more if you have a recharging base station .Project Manager: Yeah , where are going to {disfmarker} where are you are you going to place them ?Industrial Designer: Mm-hmm mm-hmm . It'll It'll be always at topsomewhere at there .User Interface: If I was gonna place them I'd put them on the on the top here since that's like uh the black bitProject Manager: You have enough surface ? You {gap} {disfmarker}User Interface:but yeah I don't I really don't think it's necessary to have the solar cells anymore .Industrial Designer: Yeah because now we are having rechargeable batteriesProject Manager: Okay .User Interface: Mm .IndustrialDesigner: so that that is {gap} .Project Manager: What will be the autonomy ? Roughly ?User Interface: The what sorry ?Project Manager: The autonomy . Autonomy .User Interface: What do you mean ?ProjectManager: Uh I mean how long does i how how how long can it be held off a station ?Marketing: How long the {disfmarker} how long the bit the batteries long .User Interface: Ah . Ah . A long time .Project Manager:Yeah . A long {disfmarker} {vocalsound}User Interface: {vocalsound} No no no ,Industrial Designer: Eight to ten eight to ten hours .Marketing: {vocalsound}User Interface: it can {disfmarker} it should be weeks.Industrial Designer: N most {disfmarker} no most of the time it's not being used .Project Manager: Yeah , so it's {disfmarker}User Interface: Yeah but y people don't like to put it back in the base station all the timepeople leave wanna leave it on the couch so {disfmarker}Industrial Designer: So when when you are making it on {disfmarker}Project Manager: It's used only when you {disfmarker}Industrial Designer: Mm .Mm-hmm . No eight or eight or ten hours of working .User Interface: Ah , okay .Industrial Designer: If you are just leaving like that it'll be much longer .User Interface: Okay .Project Manager: Yeah . F weeks .UserInterface: Yeah .Industrial Designer: Yeah . That's right .Project Manager: Right . Next slide ?Industrial Designer: Yeah . And we are having the speakers regular chip for control . Pricing is {disfmarker} was a factor sothat's why we have gone for a regular chip only not the advanced chip . And uh that's it .Project Manager: Okay . {gap} Okay . Those really sounds very good .Industrial Designer: That's right .Project Manager:{vocalsound} Nothing else to add ?User Interface: It seems to be falling over .Marketing: I l yeah .Project Manager: Yeah .Marketing: I like I like it . Maybe the the thing that convince me the less is the {vocalsound}the multifunctional buttons . Looks a bit {disfmarker}Industrial Designer: You want to have more functional buttons ?Marketing: Looks a bit puzzled uh I dunno how to say {vocalsound} that .Industrial Designer: Youare not convinced .Marketing: You {disfmarker} the the b the buttons change h h their function depending if y it's teletext or not {disfmarker}Industrial Designer: Not not many , we we want to keep it simple . So thatthis button fo is for teletext which is usually also the case , that usually there is a teletext button and once you press that , the channel buttons , they baco become the scrolling buttons .Marketing: And the volumebutton will will become {disfmarker}Industrial Designer: It's up to you , means .Project Manager: Well in fact b both will be {disfmarker} could be useful , navigating through teletext .Industrial Designer: Now that{disfmarker} Means let's say this this can move the the larger digits and this can move the smaller digits .User Interface: Or can move between positions in the in the number .Industrial Designer: That's right .ProjectManager: Yeah .Marketing: And what about people who want to use digits ? Butto real buttons ?Project Manager: Wow .Industrial Designer: Yeah . So there was there was a constraint that the surface area which wehave on this banana on one side because of the shape .Marketing: {vocalsound}Industrial Designer: So we are targeting a segment which is which is just very trendy kind of thing , they they don't care about thebuttons any more . And anyway {disfmarker}Marketing: Okay . Because have you thought about configuration and all this kind of uh stuff ?User Interface: It's all automatic .Marketing: It's all automatic .User Interface:Yep .Project Manager: {vocalsound}User Interface: {vocalsound}Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}Marketing: {vocalsound} Okay . {vocalsound} Okay yeah it's fine .Project Manager: Very good uh yeah{disfmarker}Marketing: W we are living in a wonderful world . {vocalsound}Project Manager: {vocalsound} you th yeah .User Interface: Uh . {vocalsound}Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}Project Manager:{vocalsound} Bananas everywhere .Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}Project Manager: Okay , so {disfmarker} {vocalsound}Marketing: Automatically configure {gap} . {vocalsound}Project Manager:{vocalsound}Marketing: {vocalsound}Project Manager: So we have to go through now evaluations .Industrial Designer: Evalua yeah .Marketing: Yeah .Project Manager: {vocalsound} So your slides are ready?Marketing: SProject Manager: Uh you're four I think .Marketing: Yeah .Project Manager: So this is one , which one is this one ?Marketing: Yeah .Project Manager: {vocalsound} {vocalsound}Marketing: Okay . I{vocalsound} I const I constructed a a list of criteria based on the on the general user requirements . And each criteria is {vocalsound} will be evaluated it's uh logical criteria so we must users must say i if it's true or is{disfmarker} or if it's false in a in a scale ranging from zero to seven .Industrial Designer: Why this strange factor of seven ?Marketing: Because i I'm sorry . Sorry .Industrial Designer: Usually I have seen that scalesare from one to ten .Marketing: Ah yeah . It's from {disfmarker} sorry , it's from one to seven . It's from from one to seven sorry . Because it should be an even it should be an even uh scale ,Industrial Designer: Okay.Project Manager: Num number {disfmarker}Industrial Designer: Okay . Mm-hmm .Marketing: and five is too short and nine is too long .Industrial Designer: Okay .Marketing: {vocalsound} I'm a I I'm{disfmarker}Industrial Designer: Okay fine , got the idea .Project Manager: So to have {disfmarker} in order to have enough granularity {disfmarker}Marketing: Sorry ?Project Manager: it's in order to have enoughgranularity in the evaluation .Marketing: Yeah yeah .Industrial Designer: Okay .Marketing: The variance is mi it's is minimal .Project Manager: Okay .Industrial Designer: Okay , okay , great .Marketing: I'm umanswering your question .Industrial Designer: Okay . Yeah yeah .Marketing: Okay .Industrial Designer: Go ahead .Marketing: {vocalsound} And that's the criteria I I found more useful . I think I sh I {vocalsound} Icould write the criteria in the on the whiteboard ?Industrial Designer: Mm-hmm . Sure .Marketing: And we all four could rangeIndustrial Designer: Okay . Yeah yeah . Yeah .Marketing: could evaluate the{disfmarker}Project Manager: Okay .Marketing: {gap}Industrial Designer: So you can say fancy , handy . Handy .Marketing: Okay let's let's evaluate if it's fancy or {disfmarker}Industrial Designer: Yeah , it's fancy ,according to me .Marketing: Seven but {disfmarker} {vocalsound}User Interface: {vocalsound}Project Manager: Yeah , six .Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}Project Manager: S seven .Industrial Designer: Seven .Seven by me .Project Manager: Six .Marketing: I would say seven .Industrial Designer: Okay .Marketing: It's quite fancy .Industrial Designer: So you can add seven plus six plus seven plus {disfmarker}User Interface:{vocalsound}Project Manager: No , wait .User Interface: Yeah uh five .Project Manager: What do you say seven ? Five ?Industrial Designer: Five .User Interface: Five , maybe maybe maybe six it's it's I guess it's{disfmarker}Project Manager: Okay , six point five .User Interface: yeah .Project Manager: Handy ?User Interface: {vocalsound}Industrial Designer: Again I'll give seven .Project Manager: Seven .User Interface: I'dgive it a six like I'd I think it's probably more handy than my current remote , 'cause of the scroll wheelsMarketing: Six .Industrial Designer: Yep .User Interface: but maybe loses the point for not having you know theextra buttons when you reall if you do need them for some reason but you know you can always use your other remote .Project Manager: So seven , seven ,Industrial Designer: Seven for me .Project Manager: six ,UserInterface: Yeah .Marketing: Six .Project Manager: six point five . Functional . {vocalsound} {vocalsound}User Interface: {vocalsound}Industrial Designer: I'll give five .Project Manager: Four .Marketing: I would say{disfmarker} {vocalsound}Project Manager: {vocalsound}Industrial Designer: {gap}User Interface: Well it depends when you say functional , do you mean it does what we want it to do , or d does what it does , youknow , can it make you coffee ?Marketing: Everything arProject Manager: {vocalsound} Uh for a remote control , does he have all the {gap}User Interface: You know .Marketing: Mm everything {disfmarker}UserInterface: {vocalsound} Yeah . Yeah . {gap}Project Manager: you could expect .Marketing: It's compared to the allIndustrial Designer: That's right .Marketing: remote controls .User Interface: That's before{disfmarker}Industrial Designer: That's right . The standards . What is available in the market off the shelf .User Interface: Yeah . I have to say four .Marketing: Actually I don't know what are the r the real specificationof a of a universal remote controUser Interface: Well it's not a universal remote . Remember we're focus we're supposed to focus just on T_V_s .Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} We {disfmarker}Marketing: Ah it's notan univer but it's for all kind of T_V_s ?Project Manager: Yeah .User Interface: Well all T_V_s but only T_ {disfmarker} only T_V_s I guess .Project Manager: {vocalsound} So it's universal but for T_V_s . {vocalsound}So s uh four ?Marketing: Yeah .Industrial Designer: Five .Project Manager: Five ?User Interface: Four .Project Manager: Four .Marketing: Four . Four .Industrial Designer: So four point two ?User Interface: Just four.Project Manager: Four .Industrial Designer: {gap} four . {vocalsound}User Interface: {vocalsound} Obviously there are some outliers so {disfmarker}Marketing: So four ?Project Manager: {vocalsound} {vocalsound}Okay cool ? Cool device .Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}Marketing: {vocalsound}Industrial Designer: There I'll give it seven .Project Manager: {vocalsound}Marketing: It means cool features , like new featuresactually .Industrial Designer: That's right .User Interface: {vocalsound} Which {disfmarker}Industrial Designer: For a T_V_ the most important feature which I felt was the locator which is a cool feature . And then thescroll buttons are again cool features . We don't have L_C_D_ for it but that we decided we don't want to have .Project Manager: Yeah . Seven .Marketing: I would say five .User Interface: I'll say five .Project Manager:Six .Industrial Designer: Mm-hmm . Seven .Project Manager: Plus six , I say {disfmarker} I said seven .User Interface: Yeah .Project Manager: So it's six .User Interface: S yeah .Marketing: You said seven ?{vocalsound}Project Manager: Yeah .User Interface: 'Cause it's five five seven seven so {disfmarker}Industrial Designer: Okay .User Interface: Uh , okay , definitely easy to use .Industrial Designer: Definitely seven.User Interface: Seven .Project Manager: Seven . Seven . And you ? Outl you are not lik outlier .Marketing: Five . {vocalsound}User Interface: {vocalsound}Project Manager: Seven {vocalsound}Industrial Designer:{vocalsound}Project Manager: {vocalsound} Okay okay okay okay .Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Okay .Marketing: Sorry , I have them {disfmarker}User Interface: Alright , now here's the sixty million Dollarquestion ,Project Manager: {vocalsound}User Interface: well , twenty five twenty five Euro question .Project Manager: Of course I'll buy the {gap} banana . {gap}User Interface: What do you what do you guys reckon?Marketing: {vocalsound} Of cour Of course the most difficult question for the end . {vocalsound}Project Manager: Well {disfmarker}Industrial Designer: I'll say five .User Interface: Hmm .Industrial Designer: I'll sayfive .Project Manager: Twenty five Euros . {vocalsound} Cheap .Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}Marketing: I find it quite cheap {vocalsound} actually .User Interface: {vocalsound}Marketing: I dunno . If i i itdepends , if you live in in Switzerland or you live in {disfmarker}Project Manager: Yeah , so the target price is for all Europe , or only for rich countries ? {vocalsound} It's more targeting U_K_ or{disfmarker}Marketing: I don't know . Wha the initial specifications were for the whole all Europe or {disfmarker}User Interface: {vocalsound} Uh {disfmarker}Project Manager: So this is selling costs , not productioncosts .User Interface: Yeah . Yeah .Marketing: Yeah this is the the initial specifications .Project Manager: Yeah yeah sure . Um {disfmarker} Five .Marketing: I would say six . It's quite cheap actually .User Interface: I'd


Grad A: Why ?Grad D: Um .Grad E: I 'm known . I {disfmarker}Grad A: No , cuz she already told me it , before she told you .Grad E: No , she told me a long time ago . She told me {disfmarker} she told me like twoweeks ago .Grad A: Oh , well , it doesn't matter what time .Grad B: OK . You know how to toggle the display width {pause} function {disfmarker}Grad A: Well maybe she hadn't just started transcribing me yet .Grad D:Wow .Grad A: Anyway .Grad D: What is it ?Grad E: Let me explain something to you .Grad D: Um ,Grad E: My laugh is better than yours .Grad D: there .Grad A: I beg to differ .Grad B: Yo .Grad D: Um , OK .Grad A:But you have to say something genuinely funny before you 'll get an example .Grad E: Yeah .Grad D: The thing is I don't know how to get to the next page . Here .Grad E: No . You should be {disfmarker} at least beself - satisfied enough to laugh at your own jokes .Grad D: Actually I thought {disfmarker}Grad A: No , it 's a different laugh .Grad D: There .Grad A: Ooh , wow !Grad D: How weird .Grad E: Oh ! Holy mackerel .GradA: Wow . Whoa !Grad D: What ? ! Oh . OK . I wasn't even doing anything . {vocalsound} OK .Grad A: Uh .Grad E: Eva 's got a laptop , she 's trying to show it off .Grad D: That was r actually Robert 's idea . But anyhow. UmProfessor F: O K . So , here we are .Grad E: Once again .Professor F: Once again , right , together . Um , so we haven't had a meeting for a while , and {disfmarker} and probably won't have one next week , I thinka number of people are gone . Um , so Robert , why don't you bring us up to date on where we are with EDU ?Grad B: Um , uh in a {disfmarker} in a smaller group we had uh , talked and decided about continuation ofthe data collection . So Fey 's time with us is almost officially over , and she brought us some thirty subjects and , t collected the data , and ten dialogues have been transcribed and can be looked at . If you 'reinterested in that , talk to me . Um , and we found another uh , cogsci student who 's interested in playing wizard for us . Here we 're gonna make it a little bit more complicated for the subjects , uh this round . She 'sactually suggested to look um , at the psychology department students , because they have to partake in two experiments in order to fulfill some requirements . So they have to be subjected , {vocalsound} {comment}before they can actually graduate . And um , we want to design it so that they really have to think about having some time , two days , for example , to plan certain things and figure out which can be done at what time, and , um , sort of package the whole thing in a {disfmarker} in a re in a few more complicated um , structure . That 's for the data collection . As for SmartKom , I 'm {disfmarker} the last SmartKom meeting Imentioned that we have some problems with the synthesis , which as of this morning should be resolved . And , so ,Professor F: Good .Grad B: " should be " means they aren't yet , but {disfmarker} but I think I havethe info now that I need . Plus , Johno and I are meeting tomorrow , so maybe uh uh , when tomorrow is over , we 're done . And ha n hav we 'll never have to look at it again Maybe it 'll take some more time , to berealistic , but at least we 're {disfmarker} we 're seeing the end of the tunnel there . That was that . Um , the uh , uh I don't think we need to discuss the formalism that 'll be done officially s once we 're done . Um ,something happened , in {disfmarker} on Eva 's side with the PRM that we 're gonna look at today , and um , we have a visitor from Bruchsal from the International University . Andreas , I think you 've met everyoneexcept Nancy .Grad A: Sorry . Hi . Hi .Grad C: Yeah .Grad B: Hi . Hi .Grad A: So when you said " Andreas " I thought you were talking about Stolcke .Grad B: And , um ,Grad A: Now I know that we aren't , OK .Grad B:Andy , you actually go by Andy , right ? Oh , OK .Grad C: Yeah .Grad B: Eh {disfmarker}Grad C: Cuz there is another Andreas around ,Grad A: Hmm .Grad C: so , to avoid some confusion .Grad B: That will be {pause}Reuter ? Oh , OK .Grad C: Yeah .Grad B: So my scientific director of the EML is also the dean of the International University , one of his many occupations that just contributes to the fact that he is very occupied . And ,um , the {disfmarker} um , he @ @ might tell us a little bit about what he 's actually doing , and why it is s somewhat related , and {disfmarker} by uh using maybe some of the same technologies that we are using .And um . Was that enough of an update ?Professor F: I think so .Grad B: In what order shall we proceed ?Grad D: OK .Grad B: Maybe you have your on - line {disfmarker}Grad D: Uh , yeah , sure . Um , so , I 've bejust been looking at , um , Ack ! What are you doing ? Yeah . OK . Um , I 've been looking at the PRM stuff . Um , so , this is , sort of like the latest thing I have on it , and I sorta constructed a couple of classes . Like , auser class , a site class , and {disfmarker} and you know , a time , a route , and then {disfmarker} and a query class . And I tried to simplify it down a little bit , so that I can actually um , look at it more . It 's the samepaper that I gave to Jerry last time . Um , so basically I took out a lot of stuff , a lot of the decision nodes , and then tried to {disfmarker} The red lines on the , um , graph are the um , relations between the differentum , classes . Like , a user has like , a query , and then , also has , you know um , reference slots to its preferences , um , the special needs and , you know , money , and the user interest . And so this is more or lesssimilar to the flat Bayes - net that I have , you know , with the input nodes and all that . And {disfmarker} So I tried to construct the dependency models , and a lot of these stuff I got from the flat Bayes - net , andwhat they depend on , and it turns out , you know , the CPT 's are really big , if I do that , so I tried to see how I can do , um {disfmarker} put in the computational nodes in between . And what that would look like in aPRM . And so I ended up making several classes {disfmarker} Actually , you know , a class of {disfmarker} with different attributes that are the intermediate nodes , and one of them is like , time affordability moneyaffordability , site availability , and the travel compatibility . And so some of these classes are {disfmarker} s some of these attributes only depend on stuff from , say , the user , or s f just from , I don't know , like thesite . S like , um , these here , it 's only like , user , but , if you look at travel compatibility for each of these factors , you need to look at a pair of , you know , what the um , preference of the user is versus , you know ,what type of an event it is , or you know , which form of transportation the user has and whether , you know , the onsite parking matters to the user , in that case . And that makes the scenario a little different in a PRM, because , um , then you have one - user objects and potentially you can have many different sites in {disfmarker} in mind . And so for each of the site you 'll come up with this rating , of travel compatibility . And ,they all depend on the same users , but different sites , and that makes a {disfmarker} I 'm tr I w I wa have been trying to see whether the PRM would make it more efficient if we do inferencing like that . And so , Iguess you end up having fewer number of nodes than in a flat Bayes - net , cuz otherwise you would {disfmarker} c well , it 's probably the same . But um , No , you would definitely have {disfmarker} be able to re -use , like , {vocalsound} um , all the user stuff , and not {disfmarker} not having to recompute a lot of the stuff , because it 's all from the user side . So if you changed sites , you {disfmarker} you can , you know ,save some work on that . But , you know , in the case where , it depends on both the user and the site , then I 'm still having a hard time trying to see how um , using the PRM will help . Um , so anyhow , using thoseintermediate nodes then , this {disfmarker} this would be the class that represent the intermediate nodes . And that would {disfmarker} basically it 's just another class in the model , with , you know , references to theuser and the site and the time . And then , after you group them together this {disfmarker} no the dependencies would {disfmarker} of the queries would be reduced to this . And so , you know , it 's easier to specifythe CPT and all . Um , so I think that 's about as far as I 've gone on the PRM stuff .Professor F: WellGrad D: Right .Professor F: No . So y you didn't yet tell us what the output is .Grad D: The output .Professor F: Sowhat decisions does this make ?Grad D: OK . So it only makes two decisions , in this model . And one is basically how desirable a site is meaning , um , how good it matches the needs of a user . And the other is themode of the visit , whether th It 's the EVA decision . Um , so , instead of um , {vocalsound} doing a lot of , you know , computation about , you know , which one site it wants of {disfmarker} the user wants to visit , I'll come {disfmarker} well , try to come up with like , sort of a list of sites . And for each site , you know , where {disfmarker} h how {disfmarker} how well it fits , and basically a rating of how well it fits and what to dowith it . So . Anything else I missed ?Professor F: So that was pretty quick . She 's ac uh uh Eva 's got a little write - up on it that uh , probably gives the {disfmarker} the details to anybody who needs them . Um , sothe {disfmarker} You {disfmarker} you didn't look at all yet to see if there 's anybody has a implementation .Grad D: No , not yet , um {disfmarker}Professor F: OK . So one {disfmarker} so one of the questions , youknow , about these P R Ms isGrad D: Mm - hmm .Professor F: uh , we aren't gonna build our own interpreter , so if {disfmarker} if we can't find one , then we uh , go off and do something else and wait until s oneappears . Uh , so one of the things that Eva 's gonna do over the next few weeks is see if we can track that down . Uh , the people at Stanford write papers as if they had one , but , um , we 'll see . So w Anyway . Sothat 's a {disfmarker} a major open issue . If there is an interpreter , it looks like you know , what Eva 's got should run and we should be able to actually um , try to solve , you know , the problems , to actually takethe data , and do it . Uh , and we 'll see . Uh , I actually think it is cleaner , and the ability to instantiate , you know , instance of people and sites and stuff , um , will help in the expression . Whether the inference getsany faster or not I don't know . Uh , it wouldn't surprise me if it {disfmarker} if it doesn't .Grad D: Mm - hmm .Professor F: You know , it 's the same kind of information . I think there are things that you can expressthis way which you can't express in a normal belief - net , uh , without going to some incredible hacking of {disfmarker} sort of rebuilding it on the fly . I mean , the notion of instantiating your el elements from theontology and stuff fits this very nicely and doesn't fit very well into the extended belief - net . So that was one of the main reasons for doing it . Um . I don't know . So , uh , people who have thought about the problem ,like Robert i it looked to me like if {comment} Eva were able to come up with a {vocalsound} you know , value for each of a number of uh , sites plus its EVA thing , that a travel planner should be able to take it fromthere . And {disfmarker} you know , with some other information about how much time the person has and whatever , and then plan a route .Grad B: Um - hmm , um , {vocalsound} well , first of all uh , uh , greatlooks , mu much cleaner , nnn , nnn , Certain {disfmarker} certain beauty in it , so , um , if beauty is truth , then , uh we 're in good shape . But , the um , as , uh , mentioned before we probably should look at t thedetails . So if you have a write - up then uh , I 'd love to read itGrad D: Mm - hmm .Grad B: and uh {disfmarker} because , um , i Can you go all the way back to the {disfmarker} the very top ?Grad D: Yeah .Grad B:Um , {vocalsound} uh these {disfmarker} @ @ {comment} these {disfmarker} w w when these are instantiated they take on the same values ? that we had before ?Grad D: I can't really see the whole thing .Grad B:or are they {disfmarker} have they changed , in a sense ?Grad D: Well I think I basically leave them to similar things .Grad B: Uh - huh .Grad D: Some of the things might {disfmarker} that might be different , maybelike {disfmarker} are that the hours for the site .Grad B: Hmm .Grad D: And , eventually I meant that to mean whether they 're open at this hour or not .Grad B: Uh - huh .Grad D: And status would be , you know ,more or less like , whether they 're under construction , and {disfmarker} and {disfmarker} or stuff like that .Grad B: And the , uh , other question I would have is that presumably , from the way the Stanford peopletalk about it , you can put the probabilities also on the relations . If {disfmarker}Grad D: Which is the structural uncertainty ?Professor F: Yeah . Yeah , I {disfmarker} that 's {disfmarker} That I think was actually inthe previous {disfmarker} the Ubenth stuff . I don't remember whether they carried that over to this or not ,Grad A: Mmm .Professor F: uh , structural uncertainty .Grad B: It 's sort of in the definition or {disfmarker}in the {disfmarker} in Daphne 's definition of a PRM is that classes and relations ,Professor F: OK .Grad B: and you 're gonna have CPT 's over the classes and their relations .Professor F: Alright .Grad B: Moreuncertainty , or {disfmarker} or {disfmarker}Professor F: Uh ,Grad B: I should say .Grad D: I remember them learning when , you know , you don't know the structure for sure ,Professor F: Yeah .Grad D: but I don'tremember reading how you specifyGrad B: Yeah , that would be exactly my question .Professor F: Right .Grad D: wh to start with . Yeah .Grad B: Well {disfmarker}Grad D: Yeah .Professor F: Yeah . So , uh , the{disfmarker} the plan is {disfmarker} is when Daphne gets back , we 'll get in touch and supposedly , um , we 'll actually get s deep {disfmarker} seriously connected to {disfmarker} to their work andGrad B: Yep.Professor F: somebody 'll {disfmarker} Uh , you know {disfmarker} If it 's a group meeting once a week probably someone 'll go down and , whatever . So , we 'll actually figure all this out .Grad B: OK . OK . Then Ithink the w {vocalsound} long term perspective is {disfmarker} is pretty clear . We get rocking and rolling on this again , once we get a package , if , when , and how , then this becomes foregroundedGrad D: Mm -hmm .Grad B: profiled , focused , again .Grad E: Designated ?Grad A: Of course .Grad B: And um , until then we 'll come up with a something that 's {disfmarker} @ @ {comment} that 's way more complicated for you. Right ?Grad D: OK .Grad B: Because this was laughingly easy , right ?Grad D: Actually I had to take out a lot of the complicated stuff , cuz I {disfmarker} I made it really complicated in the beginning , and Jerry waslike , {vocalsound} " this is just too much " .Professor F: Yeah . So , um , you could , from this , go on and say suppose there 's a group of people traveling together and you wanted to plan something that somehow ,with some Pareto optimal uh , {vocalsound} uh , thing for {disfmarker}Grad A: That 's good . That 's definitely a job for artificial intelligence .Professor F: uh , or {disfmarker}Grad A: Except for humans can't reallysolve it either , so .Grad B: Well that 's not {disfmarker} not even something humans {disfmarker} yeah .Professor F: Right . Right . Well that 's the {disfmarker} that would {disfmarker} that would be a {disfmarker}uh , you could sell it , as a {disfmarker}Grad A: Yeah .Professor F: OK , eh you don't have to fight about this , just give your preferences to the {disfmarker}Grad A: And then you can blame the computer .Professor F:w Exactly .Grad A: So .Grad B: Hmm . But what does it {disfmarker} uh {disfmarker} Would a pote potential result be to {disfmarker} to split up and never talk to each other again ? You know .Grad A: That should beone of them .Grad B: Yeah .Professor F: Yeah . Right .Grad E: That 'd be nice .Grad A: Mmm .Professor F: Anyway . So . So there i there are some {disfmarker} some u uh , you know , uh , elaborations of this that youcould try to put in to this structure , but I don't think it 's worth it now . Because we 're gonna see what {disfmarker} what else uh {disfmarker} what else we 're gonna do . Anyway . But uh , it 's good , yeah and{disfmarker} and there were a couple other ideas of {disfmarker} of uh , things for Eva to look at in {disfmarker} in the interim .Grad B: Good . Then , we can move on and see what Andreas has got out his sleeve . OrAndy , for that matter ?Grad C: OK . So uh , uh , well , thanks for having me here , first of all . Um , so maybe just a {disfmarker} a little background on {disfmarker} on my visit . So , uh , I 'm not really involved inany project , that 's uh {disfmarker} that 's relevant to you uh , a at the moment , uh , the {disfmarker} the reason is really for me uh , to have an opportunity to talk to some other researchers in the field . And{disfmarker} and so I 'll just n sort of give you a real quick introduction to what I 'm working on , and um , I just hope that you have some comments or , maybe you 're interested in it to find out more , and{disfmarker} and so I 'll be uh , happy to talk to you and {disfmarker} and uh , I 'd also like to find out some more and {disfmarker} and maybe I 'll just walk around the office and and then {disfmarker} and ask some{disfmarker} some questions , uh , in a couple days . So I 'll be here for uh , tomorrow and then uh , the remainder of uh , next week . OK , so , um , what I started looking at , uh , to begin with is just uh , contentmanagement systems uh , i i in general . So um , uh what 's uh {disfmarker} Sort of the state of the art there is to um {disfmarker} uh you have a bunch of {disfmarker} of uh documents or learning units or learningobjects , um , and you store meta - data uh , associate to them . So there 's some international standards like the I - triple - E , uh {disfmarker} There 's an I - triple - E , LON standard , and um , these fields are prettystraightforward , you have uh author information , you have uh , size information , format information and so on . Uh , but they 're two uh fields that are um , more interesting . One is uh you store keywords associatedwith the uh {disfmarker} with the document , and one is uh , you have sort of a , um , well , what is the document about ? So it 's some sort of taxonomic uh , ordering of {disfmarker} of the {disfmarker} of the units .Now , if you sort of put on your semantic glasses , uh you say , well that 's not all that easy , because there 's an implicit um , uh , assumption behind that is that uh , all the users of this system share the sameinterpretation of the keyword and the same interpretation of uh , whichever taxonomy is used , and uh , I think that 's a {disfmarker} that 's a very {disfmarker} that 's a key point of these systems and they sort ofalways brush over this real quickly without really elaborating much of that and uh {disfmarker} As a matter of fact , the only thing that m apparently really works out so far are library ordering codes , which are very ,very coarse grain , so you have some like , science , biology , and then {disfmarker} But that 's really all that we have at the moment . So I think there 's a huge , um , uh need for improvement there . Now , what thisuh {disfmarker} a standard like this would give us is we could um , sort of uh with a search engine just query uh , different repositories all over the world . But we can't really {disfmarker} Um , so what I 'm{disfmarker} what I try to do is um , to have um , uh {disfmarker} So . So the scenario is the following , you you 're working on some sort of project and you encounter a certain problem . Now , what {disfmarker}what we have at our university quite a bit is that uh , students um , try to u program a certain assignment , for example , they always run into the same problems , uh , and they always come running to us , and they 'llsay why 's it not {disfmarker} it 's not working , and we always give out the same answer , so we thought , well , it 'd be nice to have a system that could sort of take care of this , and so , what I want to build isbasically a {disfmarker} a smart F A Q system . Now , what you uh need to do here is you need to provide some context information which is more elaborate than " I 'm looking for this and this and this keyword . " So .And I think that I don't need to tell you this . I 'm {disfmarker} I 'm sure you have the same {disfmarker} when {disfmarker} when somebody utters a sentence in a certain , uh , context it , and {disfmarker} and thesame sentence in another context makes a huge difference . So , I want to be able to model information like , um , so in the {disfmarker} in the context of {disfmarker} in the context of developing distributed systems, of a at a computer science school , um , what kind of software is the person using , which homework assignment is he or she working on at the moment , um , maybe what 's the background of that student 's um ,


Lynne Neagle AM: Good morning, everyone. Welcome to the Children, Young People and Education Committee. We've received apologies for absence from Michelle Brown and Jack Sargeant; there are no substitutions.Can I ask if Members have any declarations of interest, please? No. Okay. We'll move on, then, to item 2, which is our scrutiny of the 'Healthy Weight: Healthy Wales' draft strategy, and I'm very pleased to welcome DrFrank Atherton, the Chief Medical Officer for Wales, and Nathan Cook, who is the head of the healthy and active branch at Welsh Government. Thank you, both, for attending this morning. We're very much lookingforward to hearing what you've got to say. If you're happy, we'll go straight into questions. If I can just start by asking about the fact that 'Healthy Weight: Healthy Wales' is an all-age strategy, really, and howconfident you are that it will deliver for children and young people.Dr Frank Atherton: Well, we're very confident. I mean, it has to, quite clearly. We do need to think about the present generation, the problems faced bythe current generation. We have high prevalence of overweight and obesity among adults—we know that, and we can't walk away from that because that's translating into demand on health services. But we have totake a focus, a future generation's focus, almost, on the next generation. I don't write off the current generation, we can't afford to do that, but we do need to think about what can we do that would be different for thenext generation so that they don't get into the sorts of problems that we're currently seeing with overweight and obesity. We know that the consequences of that for our young people are going to be enormous if wedon't do something and something quite soon. We know that overweight children go on to become overweight adults, unfortunately, and that brings all the consequences of multiple disease issues—diabetes is oftencited—cancer risk et cetera. So, we have to focus on children, and, in fact, during the consultation, we've been very clear that we need to engage with children and young people as well. Perhaps we'll get into that atsome point, Chair, but, yes, I can give you that assurance.Lynne Neagle AM: Okay, thank you. What my follow-up question, really, is: can you just tell us what kind of engagement you've had with children and youngpeople to inform the draft strategy?Dr Frank Atherton: Well, Nathan may be able to influence some of the detail, but in broad terms, we have discussed with young people in a number of fora. In fact, I was delightedthat we had a young person, Evie Morgan, a schoolgirl from mid Wales, who came to the joint launch on the consultation. She met the Minister there and gave a very good personal account of her views on obesity andoverweight. We've been visiting a number of schools during the consultation process. I'm visiting a school, either this week or next week, at Treorchy, to talk with teachers and young people there. Obviously, we'rehopeful that schools and young people will contribute to the consultation as well. So, we've had quite good input, I would say, from children and young people. There is always more we can do we and we want to hearthose voices.Nathan Cook: I was going to say, we've also had a session with youth ambassadors as well, and what we've actually produced for the consultation is not just the children and young people's version, butalso a toolkit in terms of getting schools really engaged and involved in terms of the work that we want them to do to feed into this as well. So, we've already had some really good responses from a lot of youth groupand schools already.Lynne Neagle AM: And you've got a structured programme, have you, to roll that out? Okay. Thank you. We've got some questions now on leadership, and the first questions are from SiânGwenllian.Sian Gwenllian AM: Good morning. I'll be speaking in Welsh. The Minister for health said yesterday, in answering a question from me on the Chamber floor, that you gave him advice not to have a target interms of reducing obesity among children. Could you confirm that that's what your advice was and tell us why you don't think that a target is needed?Dr Frank Atherton: My advice was not that we don't need atarget—we may well need a target, and that's one of the issues we need to consult on—but that the target that had been adopted in England and in Scotland to halve the prevalence of obesity in children was moreaspirational than deliverable, and that if we are to choose a target in Wales, then we need to balance deliverability with challenge. We need a challenging environment. So, there is something about performancemanagement, because I would be looking to not just the health system but the health and care system and to public services boards to think about how they're delivering on this, and I think we can use targets to that.But they are one tool in the box that I would think we could use, and part of the consultation is to ask that question—'If we are to go down a route in Wales of choosing a target, what might that look like?'Sian GwenllianAM: Okay. So, to be clear, you're not ruling out that maybe we would need a target.Dr Frank Atherton: It's certainly something that we could consider in terms of the final strategy.Sian Gwenllian AM: And is that youropinion too?Nathan Cook: Yes.Sian Gwenllian AM: Okay. Well, that is contrary to what I was told yesterday on the floor of the Chamber by the Minister, but there we go. I'm glad to hear that you're not ruling out havinga target, because without a target, without something to aim for, how do we know that we're getting there?Dr Frank Atherton: I think your point about evaluation is really important. Whatever we produce at the end ofthis process—and we're looking to produce a final strategy towards the autumn—we do need to have a strong evaluation. So, some metrics in there, it would seem, would be appropriate, but what those are, what thenature of those are, do we frame them as targets or ambitions—that's the point we need to consult on.Sian Gwenllian AM: Okay. And the other point, of course, is the investment. If the Government is going to besuccessful in terms of the aim of reducing childhood obesity, then it needs to fund and support the actions. Have you made an assessment of the level of investment needed to implement this plan?Dr Frank Atherton:Resourcing will be important. We currently do make investments in a number of areas that relate to child health generally, and, of course, obesity and overweight in particular. So, the question of resourcing isimportant. Now, we can't quantify an absolute amount of resource that will be needed to deliver until we know exactly what's going to come out of the consultation and what actions we might want to deliver to a greaterdegree in Wales. A figure of £8 million to £10 million a year has been banded around as a broad kind of area of what we might need to invest, but that would need to be drawn from existing programmes. We need tolook at existing programmes, how effective they are. Can we make them more effective? Can we get better value from them? And there may well be a case for new investment, and that's a question, of course, thatwould need to be discussed with Ministers when we're producing the final strategy.Nathan Cook: But I think a key consideration as well is we already know there is investment across health boards in some kind ofobesity-related services. So, I think what we really need to think about across Wales is how we can drive greater scale, how we can look at current programmes in terms of making sure that they're better evaluated,and how we can make sure that we're also drawing up on the existing resources and capacity out there as well.Sian Gwenllian AM: And does the level of investment depend on what the target is—what the goal is?DrFrank Atherton: I don't think you can necessarily just link the two. The issue of resourcing is one that's there irrespective of whether we choose to put a target in place.Sian Gwenllian AM: But how would we know thatit's being used effectively if there isn't something to aim for?Dr Frank Atherton: Which brings you back to the question about evaluation. We need proper evaluation of the various programmes that we have.SianGwenllian AM: Yes, but without a target, how can you properly evaluate? If you don't know what you're trying to do, how can you properly evaluate? Anyway, you're open to suggestions about having a target, which isgreat. Would you agree that Government could use the revenue that's being produced through the levy on soft drinks towards some of these efforts to—?Dr Frank Atherton: Well, of course, there are someconsequentials that are coming to the Welsh Government as part of the levy on sugary soft drinks. That funding, of course, is less than we had anticipated, and that reflects, actually, a success story because industry isreformulating, and so the amount of sugar in soft drinks is already starting to decrease, which is a good thing. But to your question: should we use the funding? Well, of course we should use funding. I'm not personallyin favour of hypothecation, I think I'm more interested in the totality of resource that goes into public health programmes than into marginal resource. There are, of course, a number of initiatives that we currently fundthrough the general revenue. And when I think about obesity, I don't just think about the relatively small marginal amounts of money that come in through whatever source, but I think about the totality of the £7 billionwe spend in health and social care and how we can divert and channel some of that towards broad prevention initiatives in general, and towards tackling being overweight and obesity in particular.Sian Gwenllian AM:You're saying that it's less than expected. Could you give us any kind of figure?Dr Frank Atherton: I'm sorry, could you repeat the question?Sian Gwenllian AM: You say that there is less money that's come in throughthese consequentials from the levy, can you mention some sort of figure?Dr Frank Atherton: The figure that I have in mind is about £56 million that's coming in in terms of revenue over a two-year period. But I'd haveto confirm that with the committee. What the anticipated—. When the sugar levy was first brought in, there was some modelling at UK level about what level of revenue that would bring, but it was based on the amountof sugar that was currently then in drinks and the fact that the sugar has reduced in drinks, I mean, the total amount available to the UK is less and hence our consequentials are less. Nathan may have some precisefigures.Nathan Cook: Yes, I was going to say, there was a mid-year report done where the levy has raised £150 million to date since coming into force in April, and the original forecast was £520 million a year. So, Ithink that shows the amount of work that's been done by industry around reformulation.Sian Gwenllian AM: And the consequentials of that? That is the consequential—£150 million.Nathan Cook: On a UK level.SianGwenllian AM: Yes, so what's the Welsh consequential?Lynne Neagle AM: Fifty-six.Sian Gwenllian AM: Fifty-six? Gosh, that sounds a lot. Anyway, it's a good sum of money and you're talking about investing £8 million to£10 million. So, obviously, you know, we can be more ambitious because there is money in that pot if that money was ring-fenced for this particular scheme.Dr Frank Atherton: Well, the resource is going to be a realissue that we need to address, and I think as Nathan has said, there is funding of various initiatives currently in the system, and we need to look at that and make that as effective as possible. Will there be a need forsome additional resource? There may well be, and that's a question that we'll have to look at in terms of the strategy when we develop it and have a discussion with Ministers about the level of resourcing.Lynne NeagleAM: Can I just ask on that before Siân moves on? What assessment have you made of how that money is being spent in other UK nations? Because my understanding is that the money is being used in other UK nationsto directly impact on obesity. Have you given any consideration to—? As I understand it, that money now is being dispersed around a plethora of programmes, including the transformation programme, and what I foundvery odd, really, was vaccination, which is surely the core business of the NHS. Have you got any view on that?Dr Frank Atherton: I'm not sure I understand your point, Chair, in terms of the link between theconsequentials from—. Are you talking about the consequentials from the sugar levy or are you talking about—?Lynne Neagle AM: Yes, because in other nations, it is being used to directly impact on initiatives to tackleobesity, whereas, we've kind of put it here in Wales into the general pot and it's being used to fund a plethora of different things.Dr Frank Atherton: Well, that cuts to what I was talking about. My preference—it's apersonal view—is that hypothecation doesn't really help us too much. I mean, what we need to look at is whether the programmes, the sorts of programmes that are being funded in England, or indeed in Scotland, areworking effectively, and if they are, are they being delivered here in Wales? We have looked very carefully at the plans that England and Scotland have for tackling obesity and overweight, and we've made a comparisonwith what we're doing in Wales, and our ambition in Wales is to go further than those nations, in many ways. But I come back to the point that just linking the hypothecation of a relatively small amount of resource islikely to be less impactful than asking a question of public services boards and of the health system, indeed, about how much money, overall, are we putting into prevention.Lynne Neagle AM: No, I recognise that, and Ithink we're talking about additional resource. Suzy.Suzy Davies AM: I was just wondering whether you thought that there was a useful psychological link on the part of the public between saying, 'Here's a sugar levy',and 'It's going to be used to help children and adults stay healthier.' Going into a pot, it actually makes it quite difficult to explain the purpose of the tax in the first place. So, I take your overall point, but in terms of thepeople who we're trying to help in all this, actually creating a direct link might be quite helpful.Dr Frank Atherton: You may be right. I'm not a behavioural psychologist. We'd have to ask—Suzy Davies AM: Neither am I.I'm a person who eats a lot of sugar. [Laughter.]Dr Frank Atherton: Your point's taken.Suzy Davies AM: Thank you.Lynne Neagle AM: Thanks. Siân.Sian Gwenllian AM: The last question from me, about partnershipworking. You're putting an emphasis on the whole-system approach in implementing the plan, how are you going to create a system that co-ordinates action and drives change across relevant partners, avoiding asituation where it's everyone's role, but nobody's responsibility? How are you going to avoid that?Dr Frank Atherton: It's a very important question, and one of the four strands in the consultation is exactly related tothat, around leadership and drive nationally. I'm not interested in producing a strategy that sits on a shelf. If you look around the world, there are plenty of obesity strategies. You may notice, by the way, that we'vechosen not to talk about an obesity strategy but a healthy weight strategy, because I think having a positive construct is really quite important to us here in Wales. But leadership will be really important, and we willneed some sort of structure to lead this, to provide oversight. I'm not a great believer in creating new structures, so we do need something that will give that drive, but the leadership comes from the top down. We needpolitical commitment to this, and that's why I welcome the input from this committee. So, that needs to be assured. And then we need to make sure that the public sector generally is engaged in this, but it goes waybeyond the public sector, of course, because we have to work with industry, and we have to work with communities, and we have to work with the public on this. So we need to think about our governance system forthis and how we drive it forward. Interestingly, we had quite a large discussion two days ago between health and social care, but also involving the third sector and some members of the public, around how can we driveprevention more generally. It wasn't specifically on obesity, but of course obesity came up because it's such a pressing issue. This question of governance was discussed quite extensively, and we do have governancesystems, of course, in Wales. We have public services boards, we have regional partnership boards, and how we can get those aligned behind this common agenda is really important. But I'd like to see—and I know I'ma public health professional, so I know that only maybe 10 per cent, 15 per cent, possibly 20 per cent of what makes and keeps us healthy as individuals and as communities can be driven through the health system;but I would like the system to step up and take these kinds of issues more seriously as well. So I'd be looking for local leadership through directors of public health and indeed through chief executives to work with theirpublic services boards on this. So, we'll need some sort of national oversight, absolutely, but we need local ownership and local leadership, too.Lynne Neagle AM: Thank you. We've got some questions now from JanetFinch-Saunders.Janet Finch-Saunders AM: Thank you, Chair. Delivery of the plan will be led by a national implementation board that will be accountable to Ministers. Which Minister do you believe it should beaccountable to, or, given the complexity of obesity, should the board be directly accountable to the First Minister?Dr Frank Atherton: Ultimately, the First Minister will be responsible for this and will want to have astrong oversight of this. It is often framed as a health issue, and the Minister, Vaughan Gething, has a strong personal commitment to this, I know. We've talked extensively with him and with sports and recreationcolleagues about that, so there's a link there. It does cut across all portfolios, and so this is an issue that I have discussed with Cabinet, and that collective ownership is really important, and will be, because it can't justsit in one domain. I think what you do need to have is you do need to have a lead organisation or a lead ministry, and I would see health as—I work within health, so I'm perhaps biased, but I would see health asleading this, but it needs broad ownership across Government.Janet Finch-Saunders AM: I know my colleague Siân Gwenllian mentioned earlier targets and things, but I know in Wales we're not too good at collectingdata. What data is currently available on childhood obesity and what metrics will be used to measure progress against the plan's objectives?Dr Frank Atherton: Well, of course, our main data source is the childmeasurement programme, which collects information on children entering school aged four or five. That's our main source of information. If we look at that data, it shows us—. Well, I'm sure you're familiar with thestatistics, but it'll be just under a third of children at that age who are overweight or obese—Janet Finch-Saunders AM: Could I just ask—sorry to interrupt—how up to date is that?Dr Frank Atherton: The last survey wasjust last year.Nathan Cook: The data was published last week.Dr Frank Atherton: Yes, the lastest data was out last week.Janet Finch-Saunders AM: It is pretty up to date.Dr Frank Atherton: So, it's pretty up to date,and what it shows—. It's not getting radically worse—there's always statistical variation in these things—but it's not getting any better. And, for the first time last year, we did look at the question not just of childrenwho were overweight or obese, but we actually singled out the proportion who are obese, severely obese. So we have a figure for that for the first time, which is about 12 per cent, which is quite shocking, in away.Janet Finch-Saunders AM: It is shocking.Dr Frank Atherton: So, that's our main source of information. Does that answer your question?Janet Finch-Saunders AM: Yes, but how will any gaps in your data beaddressed?Dr Frank Atherton: Well, one of the questions that are often asked is: could we measure more on a longitudinal basis? By that I mean in England, for example, children are measured at school entry and thenagain at year 11—at age 11 or 12., that kind of age group. And so you do have a longitudinal view over time of what's happening to children. I think that would be helpful to us in Wales, and it's one of the questions inthe consultation about whether we should expand that. Obviously, that would have significant resource implications, not just for the funding, but also for schools and for the system to deliver it. But it's something thatmaybe would help us in terms of better understanding and better evaluation—the point that was made earlier.Nathan Cook: And the other data we do have is the millennium cohort study, which has been released, for