User Interface: {vocalsound}Industrial Designer: Okay . {vocalsound} Yeah . That's okay . That's okay .Marketing: {vocalsound}Industrial Designer: Okay .Project Manager: Am I starting now ? Anytime ? Oh sorry .'Kay , um . Alright , welcome back fro to the second meeting . And um I hope you had a productive last thirty minutes .User Interface: {vocalsound}Project Manager: Um , and um , I'll be taking minutes on this one ,and um {disfmarker} Being hooked up to the PowerPoint for this meeting isn't very necessary for uh myself , because it'll be more about uh , what you guys are bringing to the meeting today . Um , so , the firstpresentation we'll be looking at is Poppy's presentation . And , um {disfmarker} So , sorry ? So , um , take it away Poppy .Industrial Designer: Okay . Um , do I need to {disfmarker} {gap}Project Manager: It's , it'splugged in . So , um {disfmarker}Industrial Designer: plugged in .User Interface: F_ eight , w . Function F_ eight .Industrial Designer: F_ okay . Function F_ eight . Sorry about this guys .Project Manager: No problem.User Interface: {gap}Industrial Designer: 'Kay . {gap} is on . Right . {gap} Okay . I will take this time just to apologise .User Interface: {vocalsound}Industrial Designer: I , I only , uh , received my emails later on .'Cause I was too busy carried away doing my own thing ,Marketing: {vocalsound}Industrial Designer: which is not obviously not a very good part of a team-working thing .User Interface: {vocalsound}IndustrialDesigner: But there we go .Project Manager: I'm sure it's fine .Industrial Designer: Um , so I was looking at how we're going to go about the working design , and what we actually need to do , and what the remotecontrol needs to do . And it needs to um allow a person to have a portable desi device , so they can control the television from wherever they are . They don't need to actually manually touch the television set . So , itgives them much more flexibility , and allows them to be where they want to be . Um , from {disfmarker} Uh , on a functional side of things , we found out that wh from our previous meeting , we decided that there'recertain points that will make our product unique . Um , one is the visibility in the dark , which was um Genevieve's idea . So we need to think about how we could bring this in um technically . And we could useilluminated buttons , which we are all familiar with when we're using a mobile phone , or um something fam familiar . A automatically , um lights up at first touch . Or we could use fluorescent materials which would justum take in the light during the day , and then as soon as they go off they would glow in the dark . Um , also we could use um an alarm . So if we lost the um remote control , perhaps there could be a button on thetelevision set itself , which you could press , and then an alarm from the handset would sound where it was , hopefully in the room . Maybe behind a cushion or somewhere .Project Manager: {vocalsound}UserInterface: {vocalsound}Industrial Designer: Um , so that would work . Um , oop . Go back there . Um , another thing I think we d missed out on on the last meeting was the fact that we should consider theenvironmental impact of our design . Um , from previous researches I've carried out on other projects , um we've learnt about smart materials where um um specific alloys of metals have a shape memory .UserInterface: {vocalsound}Marketing: {vocalsound}Industrial Designer: So they can be heated and um and cooled , and they change the shape of um the metal . So , for example , a screw that's holding somethingtogether could expand and it would force all the components apart . So um , the benefits of this for our product would be that when it came to the end of its product life , if it was heated , um everything would springapart . So , all the um individual components could be easily separated , and then some could be reused , some could be recycled , and I think that would be very important for products now . Especially 'cause there'smuch uh responsibility for all the um companies who are coming up with like new designs . 'Cause all , we all know that our resources are being limited , and we have to be very environmentally conscious .ProjectManager: Right , um , one question . This , um , self-destructible uh metal , it allows for recycling materials ?Industrial Designer: Yeah .Project Manager: So that , um , someone could have this product for as long asthey felt that they wanted it , and then once they contribute it , then that company can break down the part , the parts better ?Industrial Designer: Um {disfmarker} And then {disfmarker} Yeah . Yeah they would , umyou would make the , the product as you normally would , apart from the , the bits that hold it all together would be made out of this shape-memory alloy . And that's the part that would um allow all the other parts tobe separated at the end . I mean , the user would return the p product to the company , 'cause it's the product's responsibility to get rid of what they've made . Um , and then the company could then just use , makeuse of this shape-memory alloys to split up the components ,Project Manager: Yeah .Industrial Designer: and then either reuse some bits , and other bits which are obviously gonna wear out with time , or not usable ,they might be like be able to put into scrap metal . Something like the case , if it's scratched or something , you would want to reuse it , but you might be able to melt it down and reuse it again somewhere else .ProjectManager: Mm-hmm . Would we be the company that would break down these , or uh metals ? Or would we contribute to another group ?Industrial Designer: You could {disfmarker} we could probably empl em employa , a side company or something to do that for us . But it would be our responsibility to get that done and to dispose of the products that we made . For a certain percentage at least .Project Manager: Alright .IndustrialDesigner: Not every , not a hundred percent of everything we produce ,Project Manager: Okay . This sounds like a really great idea .Industrial Designer: but {disfmarker}Project Manager: One thing we have to consideris our uh one hundred percent um turnover goal that we have for our financial sector .Industrial Designer: Yeah . Yeah .Project Manager: Um , so we'll have to investigate how much that will cost us , cost the company,Industrial Designer: Yeah .Project Manager: um 'cause it sounds very labour-intensive . You would have to hire a number of people , and it might be more expensive .Industrial Designer: Well I {disfmarker} the fact ofthe shape-memory alloys is that they , they don't need to be manually de um deconstructed . Like , you don't have to individually um unscrew all the screws . Because of this , their properties are smart material .ProjectManager: Mm-hmm .Industrial Designer: All you need is just the heat , so they self-destruct themselves .Project Manager: Alright . We'll still have to investigate the financial implications .Industrial Designer: So Isuppose it does need like high contact , yeah , you know high uh quality machinery , and very specific machinery , but {disfmarker}Project Manager: Alright . I like the environmental approach . Um , we'll have to see ifthat can meet our financial goals as well .Industrial Designer: Yeah . Okay . Um also there is um components . This'll be how it uh will actually work . But I haven't put this plan together yet .Project Manager: I'm sorry ,could you {disfmarker}Industrial Designer: There we goProject Manager: Those were um {disfmarker}Industrial Designer: . Sorry , should I go back . This would actually show the circuit diagram . Although I haven'tcome up with the final circuit yet .Project Manager: Okay .Industrial Designer: So I just {gap} put all those components in .Project Manager: So those are what , um , we'll c construct the remote . Those are all the{disfmarker}Industrial Designer: Yeah . I it just shows what sort of energy source . It could be a battery , like rechargeable probably . Um , an' yeah , well how the infrared will actually be sent through the chip to bereceived by the chip on the television set itself .Project Manager: Alright . Great .Industrial Designer: Okay ? So , now is it F_ eight again to escape ? Or escape ? There we go . Okay .Project Manager: Alright . Thankyou very much . And , um , the next presenter will be Tara .Industrial Designer: Thank you .User Interface: {vocalsound}Industrial Designer: There you go Tara .User Interface: Thanks . Can you see ?Marketing: Oh ,{vocalsound}User Interface: Do you think {disfmarker} Is it uh , function eight yeah ?Project Manager: Yeah .Industrial Designer: Function F_ eight .Marketing: {vocalsound} Function F_ eight .Project Manager:Function F_ eight . Sorry .Industrial Designer: The one at the top .User Interface: Oh right . Okay .Marketing: That looks right .Project Manager: Yeah .User Interface: Okay . I'm the User {vocalsound} um UserInterface Designer . Uh , the technical functions design of the apparatus is the effect the apparatus should have . Um , in this case it's the function of the remote control , which is to send messages to the television ,television set . By taking inspiration from other similar designs , we'll try and come up with an original trendy remote control , which is sellable international . There're two functional design options . A multifunctionalremote control , which can be used for several entertainment devices . And a single function remote control , used specifically for the television . {vocalsound}Marketing: I'm sorry , what was that last one .Multifunctional and {disfmarker}User Interface: Sorry . Um , a single function just for the television itself .Marketing: Ch Oh , I see .User Interface: Yeah . Um , multifunctional controls can be difficult to use , as themultitude of buttons can be confusing . A single function remote control is simpler to use , but it means you have to have other remote controls for your other entertainment devices .Marketing: 'Kay .User Interface: Um, I think that a single function remote control would be preferable , because it's easier to use . It'd be more compatible with a range of television sets , making it more internationally sellable . Um , it will make anoriginal design more obtainable , as we have less functional necessities to include in the design . And it would be more profitable as it would be more simplistic . And less functions would have to be included . So it wouldbe cheaper to make . And probably more sellable just because it's more compatible with a r a wider range of devices . Does anyone have any questions ? {vocalsound}Marketing: {vocalsound} So as far as we know ,um , a single function television remote control is us usable internationally ?User Interface: Well , it's just that , when we're creating it , we're , we have to make it um compatible with different brands of devices.Marketing: {gap} Right .User Interface: And it would be easier to make it compatible with just different brands of television devices rather than other ent ,Marketing: D_V_D_s and V_C_R_ ?User Interface: yeah,Project Manager: Right .Marketing: Okay .User Interface: other entertainment devices .Project Manager: Does everyone agree with this ? Does anyone object and , and find the multifunctional might be a better way togo ?Industrial Designer: Um , {vocalsound} I was just wondering about the , what , what Genevieve said before , about having like some hidden controls like having the outer casing . And that would probably , um , I d, well well what you said before about it being a more profitable simplistic design . I suppose having that would complicate it a lot more .User Interface: Yeah . Yeah .Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} And limit thedesign {gap} . Do you think ?Marketing: Yeah , I think I agree with the single design thing for now , because we're trying to do so much , that if we're trying to make a unique , user-friendly , dadada , and it's also multialso multifunctional , um , we're gonna go over budget for one thing .Industrial Designer: Yeah . Yeah . That's true . Yeah .User Interface: Yeah .Marketing: So {disfmarker}Project Manager: Mm-hmm .User Interface:Yeah . And with this we'll have more room in the budget probably to make a more original design .Industrial Designer: Yeah .Marketing: Mm-hmm .User Interface: We'll have more money to go into the design side of it.Project Manager: Yeah .Industrial Designer: Okay . Yeah .Project Manager: Alright . Sounds great .Marketing: Mm , 'kay .Project Manager: Alright , well , um ,Marketing: {vocalsound}Project Manager: are you readyfor your presentation Genevieve ?Marketing: Yes I am .Project Manager: Fabulous . Except you're not hooked up to the {disfmarker}Marketing: Oh ,User Interface: {vocalsound}Marketing: I'm not hooked up , butother than that , completely ready . {vocalsound}Project Manager: {vocalsound} Great .Marketing: Okay . Okay . Oh . I just lost my microphone .Project Manager: {gap} No problem ,Marketing: Just a moment .ProjectManager: we can {disfmarker}Marketing: Okay . So I'll be discussing the functional requirements of this remote control . Um , and I'll give you a little briefing on what that means exactly . Um , if you all remember fromthe email we got before our very first uh kick-off meeting , with the coffee machine ? The functional requirements of that was to produce hot coffee quickly . Um , so what I'll be talking about now is the equivalent for aremote control . Um , so basically what needs and desires are to be fulfilled . Um , I've done some marketing research , a lot of interviews with remote control users , um , and some internet research . And I'll show youmy findings . Oh , and firstly I wanted to remind you about our company motto and purpose . So we believe in providing international market with fashionable products . Um , hence our motto , we put the fashion inelectronics . So I think that should be our priority here . Um , and we should also be looking to trends in clothing and interior design . Not just in electronic fashion . So that it's something that fits in the household.Project Manager: I'm sorry , what was that last thing that you just said ?Marketing: Um , we should be looking towards trends in both clothing and interior design .Project Manager: Mm-hmm .Marketing: Any trendsthat are going on in , in the public , even media ,Industrial Designer: Mm .Marketing: you know who's famous , what T_V_ shows are being watched ,Industrial Designer: Yeah .Marketing: um , to influence our remotecontrol . Okay , so the findings . Um , seventy five percent of users of remote controls find them ugly . Which is a , quite a significant number .Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}Marketing: Um , the other twenty fivepercent didn't specify if they love them or found them , you know , neutral . Eighty percent of users would spend more money when a remote control would look fancy . Current remote controls do not match well theoperating behaviour of the user .Project Manager: I'm sorry , that eighty percent of users would spend more money when a remote control would look fancy . You mean that they would spend more money on afancy-looking remote control ?Marketing: Yeah , they're willing , they're willing to spend money on a remote control with personality .Project Manager: Okay .Marketing: As opposed to your basic , you know , oval black, all same size button remote control .Industrial Designer: Mm . Yeah .Marketing: Um , so it is something that people care about . It's not , it's not ignored in the household . Um , seventy five percent of remote controlusers said that they zap a lot . Zapping meaning they go through channels a lot .Industrial Designer: Mm-hmm .Marketing: They're you know thumb-masters . Um , and fifty percent of users say they only use tenpercent of the buttons . That A very small amount . Thought that was interesting .Project Manager: Alright , so it might be very appealing if , um , we have very concise buttons .Industrial Designer: Mm . {gap} thesingle function .Project Manager: And another thing with um lots of surfing , we'd probably have to work on something that could be um a lot more durable ,Industrial Designer: Yeah .Project Manager: because I findwith um channel-changers that , um , a lot of the numbers get rubbed down if they're printed on the button .Marketing: Yes .Industrial Designer: Yeah that's a good point .User Interface: Yeah . Yeah .Marketing: Andactually to go with that , I'm gonna give you some statistics on the uh relevancy of the buttons , how much they're used . And uh how important the uh users find them . So the power button , obviously , in an hour isonly used once . Hopefully the person's not turning on and off the T_V_ . Um , but the relevance of that button is nine out of ten . So people wanna be able to turn on the T_V_ with the remote control . Um , as opposedto standing up and turning on the television set . Channel selection is used a hundred and sixty eight times on average per hour .Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}Marketing: That's a huge amount . This is the mostimportant button . Um , so obviously when commercials come on they're changing it , so as you said we want a durable button that's not gonna run down . Relevance of that button , our users found was uh ten , ten outof ten . Uh , ditto for volume selection , so ten out of ten . And it's used on average four times an hour . Not as much as channel selection , but still significant . Um , audio settings is used on average zero point eighttimes an hour . Relevance is two . Screen settings , which means brightness , colour etcetera , zero point five times an hour . Um , and relevance of one point five . We're getting to specific statistics here . Teletext , um, now I'm not too clear on what that is . I don't know if you can help me . Flipping pages .User Interface: It's um {disfmarker}Marketing: Is that {disfmarker}Industrial Designer: It's like the news . Or like information.User Interface: It has {disfmarker} T_V_ has like information , it has information on holidays , the news , entertainment .Project Manager: Yeah .Industrial Designer: The {disfmarker}Project Manager: It's um{disfmarker}Industrial Designer: and what's on .Marketing: So like a running banner , underneath {disfmarker}Project Manager: No it's a button that you press , and then you , uh , like a menu pops up .User Interface:No , li Yeah .Project Manager: I haven't used it beforeUser Interface: Yeah .Project Manager: but {disfmarker}Marketing: Oh .Industrial Designer: It's like {disfmarker}User Interface: And you have page numbers likefor the menu , and you press the page numbers with your remote , and it , it'll come up .Industrial Designer: It's like very basic internet . Sort of ,Marketing: Okay .User Interface: Very basic internet , yeah .IndustrialDesigner: um {disfmarker}User Interface: But you have {disfmarker}Marketing: Okay . Like tells you the weather , and {disfmarker}User Interface: Yeah . But you have no interaction back with it , you know.Marketing: Okay .User Interface: Like the internet you can send emails and {disfmarker} You've no interaction .Industrial Designer: Yeah , it's just information that um , like television timetables , what's on , what's onnow , what's on next , on every channel , and {disfmarker}Marketing: Right .User Interface: Yeah .Marketing: Alright . Well I guess I'm not with it , because I wasn't {disfmarker} But it's , it's being used fourteen timesan hour . Um , and has a r a high relevance of six point five . So it looks like something that we're gonna want to do some research on and include on our remote control .User Interface: Yeah .Industrial Designer: Yeah.Marketing: Um , channel settings . Zero point zero one times an hour . Relevance of three . Channel settings .User Interface: Uh , probably just tuning in the channels , would it be ?Marketing: P Sorry . Changing thechannels ?User Interface: Tuning them in at the very start . You know if you get a new T_V_ set , you tune in all the channels ,Industrial Designer: To get the right reception and picture , I suppose .User Interface: doyou th do you think ?Marketing: Oh , okay .User Interface: Yeah . Yeah .Marketing: Yeah . Okay .Project Manager: Mm .Marketing: Um , so it's not used very often , but people still find it relevant . Okay . Um , biggestfrustrations of uh the people that we interviewed . Remote controls are often lost somewhere . So that was already discussed by Poppy . How we could have a , an alarm system so that people can find it . Um , takes toomuch time to learn how to use a new remote control .Industrial Designer: {gap}Marketing: So it should be very user-friendly , you know . People know what to do very quickly . Um , remote controls are bad for R_S_I_. {vocalsound} {gap}Industrial Designer: Repetitive strain injury .User Interface: Repeti Uh .Marketing: Ah .Industrial Designer: I think .Marketing: Is that what it is ? People with arthritis and such ?Project Manager:That's rather sad . {vocalsound}Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}User Interface: {vocalsound} {vocalsound}Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}Marketing: Um , maybe ourIndustrial Designer: Oh , I'm guessing that's


Project Manager: Okay . {vocalsound} Well , let's start . What are we doing ? Oops . {vocalsound}User Interface: Hmm .Industrial Designer: Ah , pinball .Project Manager: {vocalsound} Okay . Okay . Not doing.Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}User Interface: {vocalsound}Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}Marketing: Mm . Ah . Hey . {vocalsound} Ah .Project Manager: Uh {disfmarker}User Interface: Oh .Marketing: Now Ihave my screen back too . {vocalsound}Project Manager: Very good .Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}Project Manager: {vocalsound} Okay .Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}Marketing: Yeah .Project Manager:{vocalsound} {gap} we have presentations . So first , it's your turn .Industrial Designer: {gap}User Interface: Mine . Oh , great .Project Manager: {vocalsound} Yeah . Isn't it amazing . {vocalsound}IndustrialDesigner: Huh . {vocalsound}Marketing: {vocalsound} Yeah . Very interesting .User Interface: Uh {disfmarker}Marketing: {vocalsound}Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}User Interface: {vocalsound}Project Manager:Industrial Designer . Interface concept .User Interface: {vocalsound} Yes , well uh let's uh talk about the interface uh concept . Uh , first I'll uh I'll uh discuss the buttons we just chose , uh show you some samples , uhuh discuss some colours and design maybe , already . And uh my personal preferences . {vocalsound} Well we chose the power button to switch the television on and off . The bu uh the mute button to switch thevolume on and o on and off . The channels buttons , one to nine , and uh off uh uh zero to nine , and the uh button to choose uh higher channels than nine . Uh the volume and channel quadrants , uh left and right , upand down arrows , to uh do the volume and channel . And the menu menu button to man manipulate the L_C_D_ uh display . Um , I found some uh interesting uh uh samples . Examples .Industrial Designer:{vocalsound}User Interface: Um , well uh what's pretty standard is uh that it's {disfmarker} that they're all pretty uh uh high uh {disfmarker}Marketing: Large .User Interface: Yeah . Yeah . Large and and and prettythin and uh and long .Marketing: A lot {disfmarker} a lot of buttons buttons .User Interface: Um , power buttons are mostly at the top uh left or right . Um , well we see the the the same uh arrows . Like there . And uh{disfmarker} Yeah , well arrow b buttons can be blue . And what's interesting is the the the icons on the buttons . Some buttons have icons like the play and stop , but we don't use that . But uh , these we we have tochoose the right icons , or or letters . Uh this is the V_ for volume , but they're both uh a V_ .Project Manager: {vocalsound}User Interface: So it's it's not really very uh clear what's the function of that .Marketing: Yeah.User Interface: Um {disfmarker} Yeah . So , that's {disfmarker}Project Manager: {vocalsound} Can you go back one page ? For the uh menu , what do we use for that ? We don't have buttons for the menu .UserInterface: Uh , well {disfmarker}Project Manager: Or we may have to use channel of the volume and channel {gap} .User Interface: Yeah . I thought that was our uh idea .Project Manager: Okay . But {gap} uh{disfmarker}User Interface: So , uh how {disfmarker}Project Manager: You have to put it on the {disfmarker}User Interface: Like this .Project Manager: Yeah .User Interface: Or or this . And that the menu button isokay .Project Manager: Yeah but , has to be clear that you can use the arrows .User Interface: {vocalsound} Yeah , okay .Marketing: Yes .User Interface: Uh , so the {disfmarker} The icons on the arrows , as well , youmean .Project Manager: Mm-hmm . Yes . The second one .User Interface: Yeah . Uh , well that's something to uh think about . {vocalsound}Project Manager: Okay .Industrial Designer: Uh , maybe I'll have somethingin my uh presentation . And you will see it .User Interface: Okay .Marketing: Okay . {vocalsound}User Interface: Um , well I don't I don't know if we have to discuss this already , or in the next uh meeting .IndustrialDesigner: {vocalsound}User Interface: But uh , as we have to uh to to design the the case and the whole uh remote control in our uh our our corporate uh company uh uh colours and the logo , I would uh recommend ayellow case . Uh , round edges . The logo at the bottom . And uh , well maybe each each uh set of buttons uh has uh has his own colour . So , it's good . Uh , recognisable . K so , I think .Project Manager: {vocalsound}Not too much colours .User Interface: Uh , no . Not too much .Project Manager: No , it's not flower power .User Interface: But uh {disfmarker} No , no , no . But this has to be has to be trendy and uh {disfmarker} and{gap} {disfmarker} {vocalsound}Project Manager: S okay .User Interface: Uh , yeah so good uh good icons on the buttons , and uh and big buttons is my uh personal uh opinion .Project Manager: Okay .UserInterface: That was that .Project Manager: Thank you . So , you're next .Industrial Designer: I'm next , okay . {vocalsound} Yes . No . Here we go .Marketing: {vocalsound}Project Manager: {vocalsound}{vocalsound}Industrial Designer: Uh , at first we will uh I will f uh say something about what younger people want ,Marketing: {gap} Okay .Project Manager: {vocalsound}Marketing: Mm-hmm .Industrial Designer: ouruh group w uh w uh we want to uh sell our remote controls to . And then , I'll discuss what my opinion is about the costs , about uh what battery is in it , what kind of buttons also . First uh , the younger people , theywant like soft mat uh materials and primary colours . Like , totally yellow , totally red . Uh , so it's visible . Uh , the shapes are curved and round , like uh you also said . Maybe it's nice to uh get a remote control not likeall the other ones , straight and uh flat and long . But to give him the shape of your hand , so you {disfmarker} it's easier to use or something like that . But that's just an idea . And then , I'll have to discuss about thecosts uh of all the things for the remote control . The battery , there are few options . Uh , I think the best option is to use uh the basic battery . So , everybody can buy it uh at the at the supermarket . Or use uh a k uhkinetic battery like uh within a watch . When you uh shake it a few times , it it's loaded . Uh , the the form of the remote control , I think it's also nice {gap} have it curved . And maybe like it's hand-shaped . Uh , so uhyou take it here in your hand and here are the buttons . Uh material , you use plastic . Hard plastic uh because uh {gap} it won't have to burst uh like in the {disfmarker} in one time . And also rubber because theyounger people like that , what we see in the research . Uh the push-buttons . We have one new thing uh discovered . It's a scroll push uh thing like a mouse . Maybe it's uh easy to use uh for the channels . When youwant to go m move up , you just scroll up and click on the button , if you wanna see the next , uh if you wanna see that channel . And also for the mouse , uh for the volume , it's also uh easy to use . Just scroll a bit up, scroll a bit down . And that's also easy just w when you have a thing like this , and you get it here . You can do it with your thumb . And with your l left hand you can uh push the buttonsMarketing: Hmm .IndustrialDesigner: uh if you {gap} push uh channel one , you can see channel one . The electrics um with a scroll push uh button , we must use regular uh chips . There are also uh simple chips . They are uh cheaper . Um , butthen we have just a basic uh uh remote control , and I think there are a lot of those uh things , and people won't buy it any more . They have seen enough of it . And you have also advanced um chips . But that's withthe L_C_D_ uh screen . And the costs will increase a lot more . And I think our budget is too low to use and an L_C_D_ , and the chip who is more expensive . And maybe it's also then uh thoughtful if we u uh use uh asum different kind of uh shapes for the {disfmarker} for remote control , that we then use the primary colours . Like , you get a yellow uh remote control , red one , blue one , et cetera . You have any more questionsabout this ? I think the main thing is we look at the costs .Marketing: Yep .Project Manager: Hmm .Industrial Designer: And not too basic , not a basic remote control , who everybody already has .Marketing: Yeah . But, thi i uh {disfmarker} This is with an L_C_D_ ? No ,Industrial Designer: Not with an L_C_D_ .Marketing: not .Project Manager: No , isn't .Industrial Designer: No .Project Manager: But the L_C_D_ is easy when you usethe scroll uh buttons . Then you can scroll , you see what number , and then you push .Industrial Designer: Yeah . But then , what I say , the costs will uh get a lot higher .Project Manager: But then it's not easy to usescroll uh wheel . If you don't {disfmarker}Industrial Designer: Th then you'll see it on the television .Project Manager: Hmm , yes . But then . Yeah , then you go one down one up . When you scroll .Industrial Designer:but l when you see a menu uh on the television , it's like you see uh one to twenty , you go uh uh s scroll up , and push number tw twenty . YeahProject Manager: but like we said before , it has to be used on everytelevision . Yeah So you may not be uh {disfmarker}Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}Project Manager: No . The television must do that . So {disfmarker}Industrial Designer: Mm-hmm . Yeah , I think the youngerpeople will have newer televisions , which can provide our uh remote control .Project Manager: Yeah but young people have to have all their uh room . And mostly they are smaller . So {disfmarker}Industrial Designer:Yes . But that won't be a problem . I think .Project Manager: Most the times that are not advanced televisions .Industrial Designer: No , but then we'll get to the regular uh remote controls .Marketing:{vocalsound}Industrial Designer: And I think , what I said , everybody has them uh has them already . And they go to a uh supermarket and buy them uh for two Euros . Uh , and ge and get the most cheapest uh thing. And I think we must look further to uh to devel d develop something news .Project Manager: Okay .Marketing: Uh , can you give an indication in b uh in the cost difference between uh the chip with L_C_D_ or without?Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} I got it on my screen and it was uh higher . But I don't know uh how much higher . {vocalsound}Marketing: 'Cause it {disfmarker}Project Manager: That's important .Marketing: Ithink if we have an L_C_D_ , it will also sell a lot better .Industrial Designer: That's true .Marketing: And that might uh bring back the costs uh {disfmarker}Industrial Designer: But then we'll {disfmarker} I think wemust discuss who {disfmarker} uh what will be better . If we have a better shape of the um remote control , or better options on it . With a scroll menu , a w scroll thing , and a L_C_D_ . And then a flat um remotecontrol . Or , a more hand-shaped remote control , with scroll , without L_C_D_ .Project Manager: Yeah . Maybe you can look how how much it is for the L_C_D_ .Industrial Designer: I can uh look on my uh{disfmarker} {vocalsound}Project Manager: {vocalsound} It's very important .Industrial Designer: {gap} Uh {disfmarker} Note that the push-button requires a simple chip chip . A scroll wheel requires minimally aregular chip , which is a higher price range . The display requires a advanced chip , which is which in turn is more expensive than the regular chip .Project Manager: Yeah , more expensive . But how much ?UserInterface: {vocalsound}Industrial Designer: Doesn't say . {vocalsound}Project Manager: {vocalsound} Oh .User Interface: Hmm .Marketing: Huh .Project Manager: Okay .Industrial Designer: That's from mymanufacturing division .Project Manager: Okay .Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}Marketing: 'Kay . {vocalsound}Project Manager: {vocalsound} Well , thank you .Industrial Designer: Yes ?Marketing: My turn ?ProjectManager: Next .Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}Marketing: {vocalsound} Mm . So {disfmarker} So {disfmarker} Yeah . So , my uh presentation is about trend-watching . Uh , I did some trend-watching . It's veryimportant to uh keep up with latest trends . {vocalsound} 'Cause if you don't , you won't sell . So , well how we did do that ? Uh , well we made an investigation of the market , by Trendwatchers . They uh watch in uhcities like uh Paris and Milan . Of course , well known for their uh trend {disfmarker} uh trends . And well , uh what did you find ? Uh , we have two groups , young and trendy , and the old and rich . Well th and theyoung and trendy , they uh they starting to like uh fruit and vegetables uh as a theme for n uh clothes , shoes , and also uh products . And um , material ? That should feel {disfmarker} have uh a spongy feeling . Andto get a feeling for what it is , uh here is an image of it . Then the old and rich . They like uh dark colours , and simple , recognisable shapes .Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}Marketing: And um , they also like uhfamiliar material , uh especially wood . Now , another picture .User Interface: {vocalsound}Marketing: To get a feeling for this . Well , uh then already come to my personal preferences . We uh aim at the youngermarket . So , we should also be uh look at their uh trends . However , with trends it's always if there's {disfmarker} it's now . It it it might last one year , and next year it be {disfmarker} uh can be totally different .And I think we want to sell our product for longer than one year . So , we m must not just only look at what the trend is now , as it might be totally different next year . So , that's uh one thing to keep in mind.Industrial Designer: Changing covers . {vocalsound}User Interface: {vocalsound}Marketing: {vocalsound}Project Manager: {vocalsound}Marketing: Yeah . Any questions ?Industrial Designer: Nope .Project Manager:No . It's clear .User Interface: No .Project Manager: So now , it's uh {disfmarker} {vocalsound} Ah , let's see . Now , w we have to decide {vocalsound} Well , we have to decide on the concept . So , we have to look at{disfmarker} 'S next . Components and user interface concept . So {disfmarker} Now , we have to make some concept . Maybe one of you can paint it on the board . First , uh user interface .Industrial Designer: Uh ,uh-uh . How w how we how we make it ? Uh {disfmarker}Project Manager: Yes , a concept on uh {disfmarker} {vocalsound}Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}Marketing: {vocalsound}Project Manager: Just{disfmarker}Industrial Designer: Shouldn't we first discuss about like what w we all {disfmarker}Marketing: Yeah .Project Manager: {vocalsound} Yeah , but maybe we can paint it . Uh , what do we want ?IndustrialDesigner: Yeah , but if I paint with {disfmarker}Project Manager: I'll paint . Okay .Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}Marketing: {vocalsound}Project Manager: Well {disfmarker}Marketing: Mm .Project Manager:Something like this ? Or {disfmarker} Shapes or {disfmarker} What do we need ?User Interface: Mm , yes . What ?Marketing: Can make several uh concepts .Project Manager: Yes , okay .Marketing: We have this , andwe had the idea of an um a more uh uh uh like sh in the shape of your hand .Project Manager: Okay .Industrial Designer: More like something {disfmarker}Marketing: Yeah I I I uh {disfmarker} yes . {vocalsound}UserInterface: {vocalsound}Industrial Designer: M like {disfmarker} Yeah I can't dr I can't draw it .Project Manager: And you have to .Industrial Designer: Uh {disfmarker} {vocalsound}Marketing: {vocalsound}UserInterface: {vocalsound}Industrial Designer: I have to .Project Manager: Yeah .Industrial Designer: I'm not a designer . It's more {gap} three D_ . Like , um when you have a part here . This is the remote control . Andthen you have something like th this under it . So , it's easier to get it like this .User Interface: Mm .Project Manager: {vocalsound} {gap}User Interface: {vocalsound} Yeah .Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}{vocalsound} It's like a gun . {vocalsound}Marketing: Yeah .User Interface: {vocalsound}Marketing: A g {vocalsound}Project Manager: So , it has to be soft ?Marketing: Mm . {gap} .Industrial Designer: And it has tobe soft , yeah .Project Manager: Okay . And uh , the buttons ?Industrial Designer: So , you can squeeze in it and {disfmarker} Sorry ?Project Manager: Buttons .Industrial Designer: Buttons on top of it . And here . Thescrolling . You can do it with your thumb .Project Manager: {vocalsound} No , it won't .Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}User Interface: But but i that's the only scroll uh button on it then ?Industrial Designer: But nowwe use one scroll button and the other one is here . One till uh uh zero till nine .User Interface: Yeah , okay .Project Manager: But , well there one for the sound and one for the channels .User Interface: But but how{disfmarker}Industrial Designer: And the bMarketing: Yeah .Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}User Interface: Yeah . How {disfmarker}Industrial Designer: Yeah ? Or two buttons .User Interface: Okay .ProjectManager: Uh , two scroll uh wheels .Marketing: And i if we go to uh {disfmarker} {vocalsound}Industrial Designer: If uh {disfmarker} 'Kay c If we do {disfmarker} If we use one , then we'll have just a switch on it ,and you'll just switch it , and now it's the sound to switch backUser Interface: Mm .Marketing: {vocalsound}Project Manager: That's th that's more difficult .Marketing: But if we have uh a me Yeah .Project Manager: It'sbetter in {disfmarker}Marketing: If we have a menu , uh how do we uh choose other options ?Industrial Designer: with the menu uh button . And then you also can scroll uh scroll in it . Just not like all the other ones ,with uh this thing , and uh here an arrow , here an arrow , here an arrow , here an arrow .Marketing: Yeah .Industrial Designer: Because uh , from h hundred uh {gap} remote controls , ninety nine have it .ProjectManager: But if we don't have a L_C_D_ we don't have a menu .User Interface: Yeah .Industrial Designer: Uh , then we have it on the T_V_ , the menu .Marketing: Uh-uh .Project Manager: Yeah , but {vocalsound}again maybe th How do we know the T_V_ can handle it ?Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}User Interface: {vocalsound}Project Manager: You don't know . So , there's no menu .Industrial Designer: I don't know . It'slike some sort of uh teletext option , but we don't have teletext . {vocalsound}Project Manager: No . So you can't use it .Industrial Designer: And if we put an L_C_D_ thing on it , then the costs will uh be much higher.Project Manager: Okay , we make two concepts . One with L_C_D_ . One without L_C_D_ .Industrial Designer: 'Kay . But you all like this kind of thing . Uh {disfmarker}Project Manager: Good concept . But{disfmarker}Industrial Designer: With the scroll button .Project Manager: That's one .Industrial Designer: And and this one has to be soft .Marketing: Uh-uh .Industrial Designer: And this has to be harder , becausewhen it falls , it mu mu must not burst . Or some kind of rubber around it .User Interface: Mm-hmm .Project Manager: It's one . Two . Number two .User Interface: And you can and you can uh make the the powerbutton as a trigger .Project Manager: {vocalsound}User Interface: Like uh {disfmarker} {vocalsound}Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Yeah . Yeah .User Interface: {vocalsound} {gap}Industrial Designer:{vocalsound} Ah that's nice .User Interface: {vocalsound}Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Here . Trigger . {vocalsound}Marketing: {vocalsound}Project Manager: No . {vocalsound} But when you handle it , you putit on and off .User Interface: Just to uh {disfmarker} {vocalsound}Project Manager: It's not good to use .Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}Project Manager: {vocalsound} Yeah , but {vocalsound} I'll zap .UserInterface: Oh , like a {vocalsound} {gap}Marketing: {vocalsound}Project Manager: {vocalsound} Fuck . Out . {vocalsound}User Interface: {vocalsound} Yeah .Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}Project Manager: No ,it's not good .Marketing: Yeah .Project Manager: {vocalsound} Now , second concept . One with L_C_D_ , one without L_C_D_ . Then uh {disfmarker} Paint it . {vocalsound}User Interface: {vocalsound}IndustrialDesigner: Paint it ?Marketing: {vocalsound}User Interface: {vocalsound}Industrial Designer: With the scroll thing on , like this ?Project Manager: One with two scroll buttons and one with without . Yeah . Uh , one witha with a menu , and one without a menu .Industrial Designer: So ?Project Manager: And the one with with a menu has an L_C_D_ .Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Draw it . {vocalsound}Project Manager:{vocalsound} Unbelievable .Marketing: {vocalsound}Project Manager: Do I have to do everything . Blank . You have {disfmarker} {vocalsound} Not so difficult .Marketing: {vocalsound} Yeah .User Interface: But ifyou put {disfmarker} push the the menu button {disfmarker}Project Manager: Uh , that's the menu . There for the L_C_D_ screen .User Interface: Yeah , wh what {disfmarker} Yes , but you don't know which of the


Lynne Neagle AM: Okay, good morning, everyone. Welcome to the Children, Young People and Education Committee. We've received no apologies for absence. Can I ask Members whether there are any declarations ofinterest, please? No. Okay. Thank you. Item 2 this morning is our evidence session with the Cabinet Secretary for Education for our inquiry into the status of the Welsh baccalaureate qualification. I'm very pleased towelcome Kirsty Williams AM, Cabinet Secretary for Education; Kevin Palmer, who is deputy director, pedagogy, leadership and professional learning; and Andrew Clark, deputy director, further education andapprenticeships division. So, thank you all for attending, and we're looking forward to hearing what you've got to say. If you're happy, Cabinet Secretary, we'll go straight to questions.Kirsty Williams AM: Ofcourse.Lynne Neagle AM: And the first questions are from Julie Morgan.Julie Morgan AM: Thank you very much, Chair, and bore da. I was going to ask some general questions about the value of the baccalaureate.Could you give us your views on how the Welsh bac is valued by learners and teachers?Kirsty Williams AM: Bore da, Julie, and thank you very much for your question. Firstly, I'd like to begin by saying that I as theCabinet Secretary value the qualification very much indeed. I believe that it helps ensure that we are able to give our young people in Wales a broad and balanced curriculum, recognising the need to develop knowledgeand skills in core subjects but recognising also that the purpose of education is to help prepare our children for further study and the world of work, and I believe that the skills challenge element of the baccalaureatedoes just that. I meet with young people and teachers all the time who tell me about the positive experiences they have had studying for the Welsh bac, and much of that was evidenced in Qualifications Wales's reviewinto the Welsh baccalaureate. They did focus group work with a representative sample, and many of the learners expressed the fact that they have enjoyed studying for the qualification and have gained a great dealfrom it. I meet regularly with individuals who have been able to use their bac to successfully gain a place at university, so I believe there's a huge value for Welsh young people being able to study this particularqualification alongside the more traditional qualifications that perhaps we're all used to. I think the challenge is that, given that many people are very familiar with what a GCSE is and, as parents, we will know what thatis and many of us will have done—some of us are so old we'll have done O-levels. We know what those traditional qualifications look like, and therefore a new qualification—there's always a job of work to do tocommunicate that, if people aren't used to it, but I value it hugely. I think that, whilst there is always room for improvement—and, of course, you'll be aware of the review that Qualifications Wales undertook and thathas suggested ways in which we can further improve and refine the qualification, but I think it is a valuable piece of work for Welsh young people to undertake.Julie Morgan AM: It's great that you've been aroundlistening to learners and what they have said about it. Have you had any negative feedback?Kirsty Williams AM: Well, occasionally, of course, we do have concerns raised with us, and those concerns are similar to theones that have been raised in the Qualifications Wales review. So, for instance, we sometimes have concerns about how some students balance the Welsh bac with other qualifications they may be taking. Someteachers feed back around the workload issues associated with the Welsh baccalaureate. For some students, there may be concerns about the nature of the Welsh bac and whether that can impact negatively on theirwell-being. And, obviously, that's why Qualifications Wales have undertaken this piece of work so that we can refine, if necessary, that qualification and how we continue to look at how we ensure my belief that takingthe Welsh bac should be the norm for students but also recognising that, in some cases, there needs to be flexibility to ensure that the well-being of the student is not compromised.Julie Morgan AM: And so would yousay that it's valued by learners more or less at key stage 4 or post 16?Kirsty Williams AM: Well, I think that, as I said, the vast majority of students I meet report very positively about the opportunities that are affordedfor studying at that level. Occasionally, we hear from students who I believe think that in studying the subject they may be compromising their chances because they want to do additional A-levels, and I'm sure we'llcome on to, later on, whether universities, and whether the Russell Group universities in particular, value the qualification. But I feel that there are particular strengths. And I think what's really important, and, intalking to universities, since the qualification became graded, rather than just a pass/fail qualification—I think that added rigour since 2015 has been particularly important in ensuring that there's real value in studentsundertaking that work.Julie Morgan AM: And what about the effect that the leadership in the school has on the way that the bac is received? Have you—?Kirsty Williams AM: As always, Julie, leadership is crucial, andstudents' experiences can be very coloured by the attitude towards the teacher delivering that particular course. And, therefore, we need to continue, alongside the WJEC and Qualifications Wales, to ensure that theWelsh bac is communicated to children in a positive way, the benefits are explained to children and their parents, and, also, we need to ensure that those who are tasked with teaching Welsh bac in their schools orcolleges feel confident in their ability to do so and to ensure that students have a really positive experience of that qualification, because if you're being taught by someone who is telling you, 'Oh, I don't know why we'rehaving to do this', then, obviously that's going to colour how you feel about it. And, if I'm honest, I recently attended a youth forum, where young people from the county were discussing all sorts of issues—everythingfrom the environment to their experience in school—and I was struck by the group of year 12 and year 13 students. I specifically asked them about the bac—I always take the opportunity to ask them about theirexperience of the baccalaureate. One school, the group of students said, 'It's fantastic. We really enjoy it. It's really valuable. I'm learning a lot.' Students from a school seven miles away—just seven miles away—said,'Oh, I don't know why we're having to do this.' And I suspect that that has got more to do with how that is being delivered in their institutions than it has about the quality of the qualification. So, we need to keepensuring that those who are tasked with this see it as important, communicate that to students, and have the confidence and the ability to deliver a really positive experience.Julie Morgan AM: I think our experiences inthe committee are very similar. Within the same room, actually, we've had two completely different sets of views. So, what do you intend to do to try to ensure that there's consistent support and enthusiasm for thebac from the leaders?Kirsty Williams AM: Well, first of all, we have the design group of Qualifications Wales looking to address some of the issues that arose out of the report around ensuring that, especially from ateacher workload perspective, it's not too onerous in terms of assessment. So, there's that to do to make sure that we're not asking children to duplicate and do things over and over and over again, which, of course, forany of us, would be wearing and we would question to the value of. So, there's the design group looking at the qualification itself. We are ensuring, as part of our professional learning for teachers that—. There areexisting opportunities via the regional consortia for support for teaching of the qualification. The WJEC has resources and support available, but we will look, as we roll out our national approach to professional learning,at that the professional learning needs of those already in the system are addressed. Of course, our accreditation for our new initial teacher education is predominantly addressed at being able to deliver the newcurriculum, but, if you think about the elements of 'Successful Futures' and the skills and the knowledge and the pedagogy associated with that, it's very much in line with the Welsh baccalaureate challenge certificate.So, actually, there are opportunities via initial teacher education as well, and we continue to need to look to work with our partners to be able to reinforce why this is a worthwhile qualification. And I have to say I thinkthe best people to do that—. It's not me. I'd like to see past students of the Welsh baccalaureate being able to talk about their own experiences and why it's made a difference to them. I come across individuals forwhom their place at university has been secured by that Welsh baccalaureate, and, all of a sudden, if that's what's got you your place, it becomes a lot more valuable than perhaps it was six months before. We need tomake sure that students are aware, and teachers and school leaders are aware, of the importance that this qualification has.Lynne Neagle AM: Suzy, did you have a supplementary?Suzy Davies AM: Yes. I've got one onIT, but I'll leave that one. I just want to go back to Julie's question about whether there was a different perspective or a different sense of value for students who are post 16 and those who are pre 16. When one of thecollege leaders here was asked whether he had people coming to him in his FE college who've been through the pre-16 bac and had heard evidence or had stories of, basically, those children cobbling together their bacin the last four weeks of term before they got there, he said that yes, that is his experience. Does that worry you at all, because, of course, the whole purpose of bac is to teach skills over a period of time, and itspurpose cannot be fulfilled by getting it all done in the last term of—which year am I in?—year 11, in order to satisfy the curriculum?Kirsty Williams AM: Yes. Obviously, that's not the experience that we would wantyoung people to have, and, as someone who has had a daughter just finish year 11, that's certainly not the experience that my daughter had in her particular school, and I have another daughter who has just gone intoyear 10, where the Welsh bac has started in year 10 and it is a a two-year course in which elements are undertaken. Obviously, we will need to address, as part of the design group and the work that QualificationsWales is doing, how that is playing out in individual schools. But that would not be a positive experience; we want this to be taken in exactly the same way as we would expect a GCSE to be taught over a period of twoyears. But, Andrew, I don't know if there's anything you'd like to add from the college perspective.Andrew Clark: I think it is variable. I think that it will depend on the feeder schools to the colleges and it'll depend uponthe delivery models that are in existence in those schools. It's been around as a qualification now for about a decade, I think. There have been differences in the way that the subject has been—sorry, not the subject,the qualification has been delivered. And I think it'll be helped by a recent review by Qualifications Wales, because they're doing a survey at the moment as to different delivery models in different locations, and that,perhaps, will inform more even practice as we move forwards.Suzy Davies AM: Yes, and Estyn and consortia are looking at it as well. I don't want to cut across questions, so, thank you.Andrew Clark: No, but it's aknown issue, if you like, that various people are attempting to address and bring a more uniform mode of delivery across the nation.Suzy Davies AM: Okay, thank you.Lynne Neagle AM: We've got some more detailedquestions now on understanding, from Siân Gwenllian.Sian Gwenllian AM: Just to drill down rather deeper into the issue of the variability in the way in which the Welsh bac is provided, could you explain why you thinkthat this inconsistency is happening, and then what the impact of the inconsistency and variability is on the value that learners attach to the bac and their understanding of it?Kirsty Williams AM: I think the variabilitycan be perhaps explained by the fact that it's a new type of qualification, the fact that different schools have adopted it at different rates—Sian Gwenllian AM: Ten years?Kirsty Williams AM: Well, as I said, over thattime, there were some early adopters who have done it in a certain way, there are some people who've come later to it, who may be doing it in a different way. And, as I said, it's quite a different departure fromtraditional O-levels, from GCSE-type subjects, where there is a programme of work and a syllabus. So, it is a different nature of qualification, and, therefore, as Andrew has just alluded to, schools have approached it ina different way. We are alert to that and Qualifications Wales, crucially, is alert to that, and we are looking to ensure greater consistency in how it is delivered in individual schools. We're also aware, in the schoolsetting, in pre 16, there are some concerns about the onerousness of the workload associated with the evaluation of the students' work. Now, clearly, there is a difference between onerous and rigorous. We wrote thequalification to be a rigorous qualification for the students, but we don't want it to be jeopardised by the evaluation of it being too onerous. So, there's that balance to be struck. Again, that's one of the issues that thedesign group and Qualifications Wales are looking at. That process is a really important process, so there is the design group, but working alongside the design group, who they are testing the messages and testing theirthoughts with, is a stakeholder group, and there is also a practitioners group. So, that work by the design group is being tested with those people who have an interest: business, for instance, the world of work—is thisqualification really giving students the skills that are valued by potential employers?—but it's also testing its thinking with the practitioners, those people who will be charged with the delivery of the qualification, and Ithink that's really important to be able to get an understanding of the challenges of making sure there's a consistency, and what are the barriers to that, and what steps need to be taken to ensure a greater level ofconsistency in delivery.Sian Gwenllian AM: Is there a correlation between consistency in general? Because we know that there's polarisation in the secondary school sector between the good schools and the not-so-goodschools. And is there a correlation between—if the schools are good according to Estyn, or excellent, are they also good, excellent at delivering the bac? Is it a fundamental inconsistency across the sector that's causingthis inconsistency?Kirsty Williams AM: I don't know. I don't have that data to hand, but, of course, from next year, the bac will be a dedicated performance measure for schools. So, actually, we will be lookingspecifically at completion of the bac as part of the wider set of school performance measures. So perhaps we will be in a better position once that's formally established to be able to track progress.Sian Gwenllian AM:Because some of the evidence we've heard is that if the leadership is good around the bac in the school, well, everything else follows from that. So, it makes sense to me that it could be.Kirsty Williams AM: Absolutely.As I said, I don't have the figures to hand, but, as I said, from next year, the bac actually becomes a formal part of the performance measures for schools.Sian Gwenllian AM: Fine. I'll turn, therefore, to theunderstanding of employers of the Welsh bac and the skills challenge certificate. From the evidence that we've had, it appears that there is a problem in this area, that is, employers generally don't value thequalification. Is that your experience, and how can we improve that? How can we elicit more engagement from employers of all sizes with the value of the baccalaureate?Kirsty Williams AM: Well, the first thing to say ismy understanding of the development of the bac is that employers' voices were reflected and they were part of the process that drew up the qualification in the first place. You'll be aware of the review by QualificationsWales that found that many employers say that the skills that are developed through the baccalaureate are exactly the kinds of skills that they want young people to be acquiring whilst at school, that put them in a goodplace for looking for employment later. I would agree with you, Siân, and not just in terms of the bac, there are lots of reasons why we need greater working between education and employers. I sit down with employerorganisations to try and explore better ways in which we can work together—everything from ensuring that children have work experience opportunities through to, for instance, what more some of our companies coulddo to take up governors' roles, for instance, in our local schools, so that employer voice and that business voice are heard at a school management level. I think these things are really important. It's something that'ssometimes difficult. There are some excellent examples of really good practice where local employers work really closely with schools. I think of Sony in Bridgend doing a really, really, really good job working with theirlocal schools. In other areas, where you haven't got such a big employer, it can be difficult, can't it, for a small business that is trying to do their small business to think about, 'Oh my goodness, I've got to do somethingto help improve the education system as well.' So, I'm always looking at new ways in which we can get that working together. As I said, the Qualifications Wales design group has a stakeholder group that is helpingthem with their review into the qualification at the moment, but there are really good examples where employers and other organisations are working together. We also need to continue, I think, to communicate moreclearly with employers the nature of the qualification. Again, because it's relatively new, and the brands of the GCSE and A-level are so strong, people know what they are, unless you've either done the Welsh bacyourself or you have a son or a daughter, or a grandson or granddaughter who has gone through the process, you're probably going to be less familiar, and we need to continue to work together with the WJEC andQualifications Wales as a Government to better communicate the value of the qualification.Sian Gwenllian AM: So, you agree that there is a specific piece of work that needs to be done around employers and that theGovernment should be leading that.Kirsty Williams AM: Yes, and we are working closely with, as I said, Qualifications Wales to develop a joint communication plan, and we continue, as I said, as part of QualificationsWales's review into the nature of the qualification—employers' voices are being heard as part of that particular piece of work. But more generally, yes, I think there's more that we can do to better engage employerswith the education system in lots and lots of different ways.Sian Gwenllian AM: Okay. Thank you.Kirsty Williams AM: Not just on the Welsh bac.Lynne Neagle AM: Just before we move off this section, the variability thatthe committee has seen has been quite pronounced, really. We've been to a school where they've got a passionate and dedicated Welsh bac school leader, but then we've spoken to other schools where it's tagged on toa variety of teachers' roles, and that clearly has an impact on the way it's being taught. You said in your answer to Siân that you're trying to ensure more consistency in the delivery of it, and you referred to theperformance measures; are the performance measures the main vehicle by which you're going to ensure consistency, or are you planning to issue any more guidance to schools on how it should be delivered on theground?Kirsty Williams AM: We will need to reflect the work that Qualifications Wales is undertaking. Professional learning, I think, has a role to play as well as performance measures. So it's not just one thing that wecan do that will change this, it is a number of things—everything from the communications plan to making sure that teachers who find themselves responsible for delivering this feel confident and have had theprofessional learning opportunities to give them the skills so that they do a great job in delivering a positive experience to students. The performance measures, of course, as we know—sometimes in schools, it is thosethat make schools focus on something. So there's a wide variety of ways in which I think we can look to ensure more consistency. But, in the end, I think it is professional learning and teacher training, ITE, that willmake the biggest difference.Lynne Neagle AM: Okay. And just on understanding, one of the things the young people in Crickhowell told us was that they thought the name should be changed. They felt that it wasn't


Project Manager: Uh 'kay . So {disfmarker}Marketing: So so so .User Interface: Put on your mic .Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} So you forgot how this works again ?User Interface: Boss .Project Manager: Yep.Industrial Designer: {gap} Boss .Marketing: Maybe . Maybe maybe maybe .Project Manager: Okay so we're here to talk about the detailed design of the product , 'kay ?User Interface: Yep .Project Manager: And here'sthe agenda for this meeting . Uh I'm just gonna open , say a few boring words to start with again , and start taking minutes afterwards . You guys are gonna give us a presentation of our wonder product that I can seesome demonstrations of over there . Looks cool . And then we're gonna evaluate it .Marketing: {vocalsound} BraUser Interface: {vocalsound}Project Manager: Then we're gonna talk about finance , and I've got alovely Excel spreadsheet that I knocked up in the last five minutes for this . And uhIndustrial Designer: {vocalsound} Hmm you knocked it up ?Project Manager: yep . And {vocalsound} we're gonna evaluate theproduct and close .User Interface: {vocalsound}Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}Project Manager: Got forty minutes to do this in . We should be fine . Let's try and keep this one on schedule .User Interface: Alright.Project Manager: So {disfmarker}Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}Project Manager: {vocalsound} Your thing is in {disfmarker} where is it ? Is it in {disfmarker}User Interface: Three , three .Industrial Designer: Thithird third third . The end product thingy . Yeah .Project Manager: Who wants it ?User Interface: Pedro can have it .Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}User Interface: I like {disfmarker}Industrial Designer: {gap} .UserInterface: I'll help talk .Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Um yeah so what we ended up with . Production costs estimated by our manufacturing department and um the research department , which is us , is uh fifteenpoint eight Euros ,User Interface: {vocalsound}Industrial Designer: someone forgot the {vocalsound} units thereUser Interface: Unit price .Industrial Designer: yeah , uh unit price {disfmarker} unit production pricecost thing . Um we implemented the basic functions , which is just T_V_ functions plus the locator , which was one of the marketing things , cradle , scroll wheel for uh the {vocalsound} the channels , and uh weimplemented the f the the way of putting the new and revolutionary zapping , your favourite channels functionality , in the scroll .Project Manager: Zapping your favourite channels , eh ?Industrial Designer: Yeah .UserInterface: Scrolling through your favourites list .Project Manager: Oh okay okay .Industrial Designer: Zapping you know zapping .Project Manager: Ah 'kay okay , that's favourites .Industrial Designer: Maybe it's just aPortuguese thing {vocalsound} . And um yeah that was the result .Project Manager: Ah 'kay . I like the the the the logo on there as well .Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}User Interface: It's very prominent{vocalsound} .Project Manager: It is very prominent . So this is the {disfmarker}User Interface: So {vocalsound} here I'll give you the {disfmarker} so this is the cradle unit , and this is the actual remote itself . Um sothe scroll bar is {disfmarker} or the scroll wheel is this this green little scrolly guy here , um and then the volume controls are here and here .Project Manager: Okay .User Interface: Uh you've got the keypad which isthe numbers uh f from zero to nine and then ten . This is the power button . Uh we have our um {vocalsound} we have the enter button and uh what was the other button here ? This is the teletext .Industrial Designer:Start s the the start uh to to toUser Interface: The programme button ,Industrial Designer: programme yeah .Project Manager: Ah , okay I see .User Interface: yeah the programme button . So this bl this button will beused both for the favourites and for programming {vocalsound} your uh the um the type of television you wanna use . So um the plastic is the white area of this {disfmarker} of the model here , and the red area is likea rubber covering .Project Manager: It's pretty cool .User Interface: So you can see that when it lays like this or like this {disfmarker} and the buttons are all gonna be rubber , so it's pretty hard to actually damage itum {disfmarker}Project Manager: Is that {disfmarker} could that be easy to {disfmarker} for the scroll wheel to be rotated if it lands on it ?User Interface: Yeah that might be a possible a mi uh possible problem , butif you drop it {disfmarker}Industrial Designer: Not helping {vocalsound} .Project Manager: {vocalsound}User Interface: yeah {vocalsound} .Project Manager: Oh well I guess it depends on the stiffness a little of it.User Interface: Yeah and it depends on if it's sliding , but I think it's pretty ergonomic . You can feel it .Project Manager: Mm . Feels good .Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}Project Manager: I take it that this is gonnabe slightly lighter in the final design as well .User Interface: Yeah of course . Well this is clay {vocalsound} .Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}Project Manager: {vocalsound} Yeah it's kinda cool . You have to reach alittle bit don't you .User Interface: Yeah the the power button is a bit of a reach , but I think we might scale down the final model a bit .Project Manager: Ah yeah that wouldn't make sense .User Interface: {vocalsound}These {disfmarker} this is a bit larger than it would be , but {disfmarker}Project Manager: It's cool . I'm impressed .Industrial Designer: Don't have no one to handle that .User Interface: {vocalsound}Project Manager:And hold it so {vocalsound} {disfmarker}Marketing: Mm that's {disfmarker}Project Manager: wh what's the marketing perspective ?Marketing: oh that's {disfmarker} oh I like it . I mean you guys gave me more than Iwas asking for , so I'm happy because we've got some really marketable features in this . Yeah I think it's good . Good good good job .User Interface: Mm Pedro can demonstrate the the paging ability .IndustrialDesigner: Yeah . So you ha you have like the the base station with um the little button for the where's my remote .User Interface: Beep beep beep .Marketing: {vocalsound} Uh plaUser Interface:{vocalsound}Industrial Designer: The locator function .Marketing: I'm haProject Manager: {vocalsound} Okay .Marketing: It's great . That's great . It's a great feature .User Interface: Um beep beep beep{vocalsound}Project Manager: Mm it's impressing .Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Wicked isn't it ? {vocalsound}Project Manager: {vocalsound} So let me get it ,User Interface: so {vocalsound}Project Manager: if Ipress this button {disfmarker}User Interface: beep beep beep {vocalsound}Project Manager: I see . That's pretty cool . Hang on . {vocalsound}User Interface: beep beep beep {vocalsound} be shut up .{vocalsound}Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}Marketing: So you can take this ho take this home with you tonight and you can push that and he'll be across town {disfmarker}User Interface: Beep beep beep{vocalsound}Project Manager: {vocalsound} {vocalsound} I plan to do that as well .User Interface: okay . Um no no no tha that's alriProject Manager: {vocalsound} So the the two blue {disfmarker} are are those forthe the it to charge off of {disfmarker} in ?User Interface: Exactly that's exactly what those are for .Project Manager: Ah okay okay .User Interface: And um there's one other feature that we were debating , but wedecided to go against it , is um {disfmarker} you couldIndustrial Designer: {vocalsound}Project Manager: {vocalsound}User Interface: beep beep beep {vocalsound} {disfmarker}Industrial Designer:{vocalsound}User Interface: we were thinking that it might be interesting to have a trigger button here because you have this finger {disfmarker}Project Manager: Yeah {vocalsound} it's the right shape isn't it ?UserInterface: it it's it kinda feels like there should be something there , but we couldn't figure out what button is important enough to put there . And we we don't wanna accidentally be hitting the power button like that so{disfmarker}Project Manager: But maybe if you had a trigger plus the scroll then that would get past the the problem of it landing and scrolling ,User Interface: Mm .Project Manager: 'cause then it would need to be hiton both sides {gap} .User Interface: Right . So maybe in a final design phase we might tweak that a little bit ,Project Manager: Okay .User Interface: but {disfmarker}Marketing: Uh , I can see that .Project Manager:But it's definitely got options for like different types of models and things as well based on that , hasn't it ?User Interface: Mm-hmm .Marketing: Yep I like . Good job .Project Manager: So is that the the final colourscheme as well or ?Marketing: {vocalsound} No no .User Interface: Oh no this is {vocalsound} just what we had to work with at the time .Project Manager: Okay .User Interface: So we'll leave the colour scheme up tothe marketing people .Project Manager: The {disfmarker} hmm .User Interface: {vocalsound} Careful .Project Manager: It came off . The scroll wheels , {gap} a problem with them not being sort of {disfmarker}UserInterface: {vocalsound}Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}Project Manager: I don't think the user interface guy wants to touch it anymore .Marketing: Well I mean of course , I mean {disfmarker}User Interface:{vocalsound}Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}Marketing: My my s my suggestion is we're gonna go go to the silvers and blacks like most of the televisions .Project Manager: Mm .Marketing: You know some blend ofsilvers and blacks .User Interface: {vocalsound} Beep beep beep . {vocalsound}Project Manager: {vocalsound} Okay enough of that .Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}Project Manager: Well i it's cool guys . 'Kay so arewe done with the this presentation ?User Interface: Yeah .Industrial Designer: Ja .Project Manager: Okay . {vocalsound}Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}User Interface: {vocalsound}Project Manager: Now now .UserInterface: {vocalsound}Marketing: So you're not gonna find my uh my folder up there I gotta do mine up at the board .Project Manager: Have you ? Okay .Marketing: Yeah yeah . So {vocalsound} {disfmarker}ProjectManager: Can I not get your get at stuff from your shared folder now ?Marketing: No it's not in there because I had the computer problem and I I I cou I couldn't create it .Project Manager: Oh I see I see .Marketing: Icouldn't create it in the PowerPoint ,Project Manager: {vocalsound}Marketing: and I think I've got this really strange cable . So what I had , basically going from the PowerPoint format , is that uh yeah yeah I like this alot . Is this one of the tests is to see how we can adapt to s changing situations in the in the meeting room ?Project Manager: {vocalsound}Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Nah .User Interface:{vocalsound}Marketing: So what we had is we had the method . That's not how you spell method , is it ?User Interface: No way .Project Manager: {vocalsound}Marketing: No A_ {vocalsound} . {gap} . {vocalsound}So this doesn't go so fast this way . And when I speak about method I speak about the marketing of the product huh . And uh to me with this product we got uh {disfmarker} we got {vocalsound} basically three thingsto market . We've got the features , we have the uh characteristics , and we have the {vocalsound} I I don't know what we would call the other part {disfmarker} what we call you know the the {vocalsound} the corpcorporate {disfmarker} Help me . The the corporation stands behind the product , okay . So the features I think {vocalsound} we got the scroll , we've got the uh the locator , we've got the durability , we've got thedependability ,Industrial Designer: It fell off .Marketing: we've got you know the features that make this a unique product . UmUser Interface: Beep beep beep .Marketing: {vocalsound} the characteristics I talk about ,we have reliability , we have comfort , we have ergonomics , we have environmentally s sensitive . Uh and the corporation , we're talking about {disfmarker} we're we're a new we're a new company . We're wanting tomake a name for ourself . We're wanting you to uh find our product so we're gonna give you a good product at a fair price . One thing I would want to to see is uh is can we can we get a lifetime uh guarantee on thisproduct , a normal use guarantee , which means that this product , for the for the life of of {disfmarker} the life use , if it should have a technical problem , that we could re replace it at no cost ? That was something Iwould be interested in . Um so {vocalsound} yeah without uh going into great details , we have a we have a product , it has the features and the characteristics , and the background , I believe , to make it marketable Ibelieve at a cost of of of thirty thirty five to to fifty Euros . We're gonna be competitive , and we're gonna we're gonna have a market niche . Um wProject Manager: Do you {disfmarker} would you a argue that thatwe're better going for the higher cost than bringing it down into twenty f five as we probably could , but lowering our profit margins ?Marketing: That that would be uh that would be I think a decision best made bycorporate um I I m for my evaluation , based on what our competition is , I th I think that that we can go after this and and and go after more of the uh exclusivity sense than the mass market sense .Project Manager:Mm-hmm . Mm 'kay .Marketing: But I'm sh I'm sure open to to market this in either direction . But you guys came up with a great product , and at that cost I think it uh {disfmarker} there's nobody else that's puttingthis this combination of of ingredients together . The only limitations I see to this is that we're focused on television only . Uh that's the only that's the only drawback I see to this . But with all of these other features Ithink people c {vocalsound} one thing I'm I'm hoping for is people are not gonna even notice . There's gonna be somebody going home and say oh sh this thing doesn't work for my D_V_D_ and my {disfmarker} but Ilike these other things , so they keep it , they don't take it back .Project Manager: And we're actually quite open to be able to expand the product for a later version with those features quite simply anyway , aren't we ?Th there's no fundamentally different technology to do that .Marketing: {vocalsound} Well one of one of the thoughts that I had is can can this unit be be produced in a way that makes it upgradable ?Project Manager:Hmm .Marketing: You know uh like like a um a sim card in a in a um in a telephone . You know is there a card in th can we make a card and so after {vocalsound} {disfmarker}Industrial Designer: W we need we needwe need s some more buttons if it would to work on some other stuff , but {disfmarker}User Interface: Mm-hmm .Marketing: Mm-hmm , but you follow what I'm s I'm sIndustrial Designer: We we w yeah we could getanother version of it that actually works . But uh {disfmarker}Marketing: Yeah 'cause if if we can make this unit upgradable then we're {disfmarker} {vocalsound} yeah but then we talk about changing the warrantyconcept and everything , but that's that was just an idea I had . Uh to me the only additions {disfmarker}Project Manager: Yeah , the plus there's the the risk of making it unusable as well , or making it less{disfmarker} b because at the moment it's actually very straightforward to look at all the buttons , you know what they do , it's very simple , and it just works .Marketing: Yeah .Project Manager: Mm there's a risk ofthat .Marketing: Yep . But anyway that's uh {disfmarker}Project Manager: Okay so we can talk about finance now . So I have a little spreadsheet for us where {disfmarker} I I was wondering , you {disfmarker} whenyou talked about the fifteen point eight Euros , I was wondering how you came up with that figure ?User Interface: Well , that was just just our technical team added up the um production costs of the individual units.Marketing: {vocalsound}Project Manager: Okay so I have bit of a spreadsheet here for this . {vocalsound} NowUser Interface: Oh .Industrial Designer: Very co very colf colourful .Project Manager: I've made a f fewassumptions here in that I'm assuming that our power adaptor we can make for a cost of four Euros ,User Interface: {vocalsound} Uh-huh .Project Manager: equivalent to solar cells , which I think is probably fairconsidering that we have in-house manufacturing of power adaptors already .User Interface: Uh-huh .Project Manager: Uh {vocalsound} and I'm assuming that the locator beacon , the you know the {disfmarker}UserInterface: Yeah .Marketing: Mm-hmm .Industrial Designer: beep beep beep .Project Manager: {vocalsound} Can be made for {disfmarker} it sounded different that time {disfmarker} uh can be made for a similar priceto uh an L_C_ display ,User Interface: Oh , sorry . {vocalsound}Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}Project Manager: uh an uh {gap} {disfmarker} {vocalsound} Uh do you think that's fair coming from a {disfmarker} mthe manufacturing ?User Interface: Yeah um I do think we that we we {vocalsound} uh don't need the events chip on print , we only need the uh the regular chip on print ,Project Manager: {gap} . Okay .UserInterface: so there may have been a m miscalculation in there .Project Manager: Yep . Okay . So we're down to sixteen point four , yeah .User Interface: And we and we have a single-curved uh {disfmarker}ProjectManager: Is that a single-curved rather than a double-curved ?User Interface: Uh I think that {disfmarker}Project Manager: We're not entirely sure what single-curve versus double-curMarketing: {vocalsound} We'vegot a we've got a curve and a droop . I don't know whether that {vocalsound} .User Interface: It's single-curved ,Project Manager: You think ? OkayUser Interface: yeah .Project Manager: I'm {gap} convinced . But wesave one Euro that way , yeah ? So we come {disfmarker} bring it down to {disfmarker} {vocalsound} Fifteen point four .User Interface: See it's a little bit more than f single-curved . So yeah it's fifteen point eight ,that's where we came up with it {vocalsound} .Project Manager: {vocalsound} Well hang on .Marketing: {vocalsound}Project Manager: Do don't speak so {disfmarker} it's in here , in that {vocalsound}User Interface:Okay .Project Manager: w do we have any {disfmarker} we have special form don't we ?User Interface: Yeah we do .Industrial Designer: Yeah .Project Manager: So that's {disfmarker} yeah .User Interface: Ah . Whatdo you know {vocalsound} .Project Manager: But the the the {disfmarker} we haven't talked about any special colour though uh I don't thUser Interface: {vocalsound} Oh it's {vocalsound} a that's not very special ,it's pretty {disfmarker}Project Manager: if we're going for greys and silvers then I don't think we're {disfmarker} {vocalsound} O okay so we're {disfmarker}User Interface: {vocalsound} If th {vocalsound} .ProjectManager: Push-button , scroll wheel , we're {disfmarker} basically we have uh thIndustrial Designer: We don't {disfmarker}Project Manager: is this intended to be a button as well or just a scroll ?User Interface: That'sa scroll .Industrial Designer: It's a scroll .Project Manager: Just a scroll ? It's not one of the scrolls where , for example , with this one you could push it down to be a button ?User Interface: Uh no we just use it as ascroll .Marketing: Ooh .Project Manager: Okay then we have fifteen point eight Euros .User Interface: It was a pretty accurate estimate I would say .Project Manager: {vocalsound} It wasn't bad .Industrial Designer:Yes .User Interface: {vocalsound} Yeah {vocalsound} .Industrial Designer: We're wicked . Awesome .Project Manager: Okay so we're on to the {disfmarker}User Interface: S 's kind of s frighteningly accurate{vocalsound} .Industrial Designer: Yeah .Project Manager: We're on to the pat-on-the-back part of the presentation , where we have a look at the criterias th that Paul {vocalsound} the criterion criteria that Paul hashas given us {vocalsound} , and we can use that to tell {disfmarker} How's it going ? {vocalsound} Anyone got any thoughts ?User Interface: What ?Project Manager: How how have we done today ?User Interface: Ithink we did pretty well .Project Manager: I think we did pretty well too .Industrial Designer: Yeah .Project Manager: That looks pretty spectacular .Marketing: No , I think we come up with a with a attractive marketableum product and and concept .Project Manager: Any other chang uh thoughts ? Okay so th th what about um room for creativity ?Marketing: {vocalsound}Project Manager: Is it the {gap} .Industrial Designer: That wasmm-hmm {disfmarker}User Interface: Sh I think there was plenty of room .Project Manager: I {vocalsound}Industrial Designer: Yeah .Project Manager: I think we we ended up being quite creative there .UserInterface: We got a couple innovative iMarketing: YeahUser Interface: Couple innovative ideas .Marketing: well we we we kinda broke {vocalsound} {disfmarker} we kinda at least adjusted every every criteria they