Lynne Neagle AM: Good morning, everyone, and welcome to the Children, Young People and Education Committee. We've received apologies for absence from Janet Finch-Saunders. I'd like to take this opportunity towelcome Suzy Davies to the committee, and to thank Mark Reckless and Darren Millar, who have left us, for their service and hard work as members of the committee. Can I ask whether there are any declarations ofinterest, please? No. Okay. We will move on then to our evidence session on our inquiry into the impact of Brexit on higher and further education. I'm very pleased to welcome Kirsty Williams, Cabinet Secretary forEducation, and Eluned Morgan AM, Minister for Welsh Language and Lifelong Learning. Can I just ask you to introduce your officials for the record, please?Kirsty Williams AM: Bore da, Lynne, and thank you for theinvitation to join you. Eluned and I are joined this morning by Huw Morris, who's the group director at SHELL—skills, higher education and lifelong learning—and Marie Knox, who is deputy director, overseeing Europeantransition.Lynne Neagle AM: Okay, thank you very much, and thank you for coming. We'll go straight into questions, then, and the first questions are from Suzy Davies.Suzy Davies AM: Thank you. I'd like to ask youboth, if that's okay, a little bit about preparedness. But if I could start with higher education, I understand that—I don't know, it must be about 18 months ago now—Ken Skates told another committee in this place thatthere had been nine sector analyses done. Presumably, one of those was HE, because of the—well, Welsh Government had a presence, and still does, in Brussels, related to higher education. Apparently, those have nowbeen superseded by work that's been done by Cardiff University. I don't know if you've got any comments on that research, or whether it's been brought to your attention yet.Kirsty Williams AM: Well, Suzy, followingthe vote, I was very keen that we work very closely with colleagues in higher education and further education, to get an understanding from on the ground about the potential impact. So, in terms of preparedness, westarted that group in the September, and that work from that group, which includes both HE and FE, has been instrumental in helping the Government form its views, which were articulated in the Government's WhitePaper, 'Securing Wales' Future'. There has been ongoing work being done—as the debate in London and Europe becomes a little bit more clear, then it becomes a little less clear, and then a little bit more clear, but,bearing in mind the difficulties of working in an ever-changing field, we have been refining those approaches. Each institution has been looking at their own institution, because, as you can imagine, although we have anoverview of the sector, the challenges are very different for individual institutions—so their exposure, for instance, to the number of European Union students that they have at their college, or the work that they mightbe doing with Horizon 2020, or their success—and there has been considerable success in the HE field in securing structural funds for various projects—the exposure and the potential impact of leaving the EU, in a 'nodeal' or in a 'deal' scenario, is very, very different. But I don't know if, Huw, you want to talk any further.Suzy Davies AM: Maybe just to use the 'no deal' scenario is probably the easiest, isn't it?Kirsty Williams AM: The'no deal'?Suzy Davies AM: Well, yes, because that's the worst-case scenario, so let's look at that one.Huw Morris: As the Cabinet Secretary mentioned, the higher education Brexit working group's been meeting sinceSeptember 2016 and has been looking at that in general. More recently, when the prospect of no deal became talked about, officials have been visiting individual institutions to talk to them about their preparedness forthat. As you'll be aware, the funding for much of the activity is secured, we believe, even under a 'no deal' scenario, until December 2020; that's a letter we had from the Chief Secretary to the Treasury. I think theresearch you're referring to may be research that Cardiff University has been doing with the Bevan Foundation and others. I know there's a report due to be launched later today. We have been doing our own researchand looking at the impact on HE, FE and apprenticeship providers.Suzy Davies AM: Well, that's really helpful because my understanding was that this Cardiff University research had superseded all those nine sectoranalyses.Huw Morris: That may be true for the economy brief. Certainly, there are published papers by Max Munday and a team at Cardiff University on the impact of Brexit on the Welsh economy, but for HE and FE andapprenticeship provision, it's as the Cabinet Secretary outlined.Suzy Davies AM: So, are there any formal risk assessments that are available for us to scrutinise, for example? For HE and FE for that matter.KirstyWilliams AM: Well, the Higher Education Funding Council for Wales have been doing some specific work; I can't comment on how wide they would want that to be shared. We have been doing some broad analysis, as Isaid, for the sector, looking at what we can do to mitigate the risk, bearing in mind that each institution is an autonomous institution, a principle that they guard really jealously, and rightly so. So, we have been, as Huwsaid, because the prospect of a 'no deal' has become, perhaps, more to the forefront, officers have been visiting each institution to try and make sure and to satisfy us, as people who fund part of their activity, that theyhave their own plans in place to deal with these scenarios. We continue to work alongside them to push the issues that we can help them with. So, for instance, we continue to work with officials in Westminster aroundErasmus+ provision in a 'no deal' scenario, what a UK stand-alone project would look like, the impacts of a 'no deal' on Horizon 2020. So, we look at the broader picture and we are encouraging continually individualinstitutions to make sure that they themselves are looking at their specific needs within that.Suzy Davies AM: Well, if there is something that's shareable, I'm sure we'd be very pleased to see it—Kirsty Williams AM:Anything that we've got—Suzy Davies AM: —particularly with FE, actually, because, of course, we haven't got a HEFCW for FE; you're doing that regulation yourself. I'd expect to see that type of work evidencedsomewhere from within Welsh Government, and we would be able to see that then.Eluned Morgan AM: So, if I could just make some points on FE. We've been actively engaging with the FE sector. We've spoken toevery one of the colleges about how they see things developing. I think it's quite a different response than what is going to be happening in HE.Suzy Davies AM: Yes, because the student thing isn't such an issue, isit?Eluned Morgan AM: You've got to remember that the FE colleges are much more anchored within their communities, they're much more localised, and so, for example, the number of EU students in these colleges issignificantly lower. The number of staff in these colleges—I think they've analysed that there are only about 71 people. So, we're keeping in touch with them and we're letting them know what we are being told in termsof the Home Office settled status and what we can do to protect those 71. But that's a much bigger issue, I think, for higher education.Suzy Davies AM: What are they telling you about European social fund funding,though, because, as you say, they're locally anchored—the impact on FE of ESF funding is probably more significant than the issues we're talking about with higher education. How are you finding this out? Is thisthrough one-to-one conversations?Eluned Morgan AM: We are engaging with them all, and, obviously, we're engaging with ColegauCymru, who've done their own analysis, and what we found, in particular, is that thereal problems are probably in relation to ESF funding and apprenticeships. But what you've got to remember is that that link between apprenticeships and the local work community is absolutely crucial. So, if—SuzyDavies AM: Yes, that's why I asked.Eluned Morgan AM: —the economy nosedives, or if there's an issue that we see—just the dislocation of companies in those areas as a result of Brexit—then that will inevitably have animpact on the number of apprenticeships that will be on offer. So, it's those kinds of things, but at the moment I think it's worth pointing out that about £15 million a year goes into the FE sector just in relation toapprenticeships.Suzy Davies AM: Can I just come back finally on that, before handing over? In both your areas of responsibility, there's going to be an impact on Welsh Government in how it responds to that, as well.Can you tell me a little bit about the European transition team, which I think is about building resilience within the Welsh Government to deal with the impacts of Brexit? Is that a formal arrangement you have withofficials? I don't really know much about this team, but it seems to meet fortnightly to get Welsh Government ready for Brexit, so could you just give us some clues on this?Marie Knox: Yes, in terms of the Europeantransition team, that's the central co-ordinating group that pulls together all the leads in each department who are pulling together the work on European transition. So, I attend that group in relation to higher educationand further education, and, obviously, other representatives in terms of agriculture, transport, the economy, et cetera.Suzy Davies AM: It's great that you're on that group, but what does it actually do? That's the bit Iwasn't sure about.Marie Knox: I guess it provides the governance structure for the Welsh Government as a whole in relation to European transition. So, individual departments do their own work, and the Europeantransition team provides the governance structure, and, also, they lead on the discussions with the Department for Exiting the European Union, No. 10, the Joint Ministerial Committee—those kinds of ministerialarrangements.Suzy Davies AM: Thank you. I've had enough time, I think.Lynne Neagle AM: Llyr.Llyr Gruffydd AM: I'll ask my questions in Welsh, if I may. This discussion between HEFCW and higher education, thesechallenges in terms of how ready they are for the changes to come, and the work that the Government is doing with FE, I suspect, is happening at an organisational level. So, I just want to hear a little about where thestudent voice comes into that discussion and where the engagement happens in terms of the students.Kirsty Williams AM: So, we have a close working relationship with the National Union of Students. I meet with themregularly, and officials are in constant touch with the student voice. They have been very clear, and I think there is a huge amount of consensus between the Welsh Government, what the universities are asking for andwhat the students are asking for. You'll have seen, only earlier this week, the very powerful campaign by NUS Wales about the importance of Erasmus+ arrangements. There is a huge amount to be gained for Welshstudents and young people participating in the Erasmus programme. Many of us, I know, have had the opportunity to study abroad as part of our own studies, and there's a lot to be gained from it. We've been veryclear from the outset, as have the sector and the student voice, about the importance of participation in that scheme.  NUS are also very concerned that there should be no negative impact on the quality of faculty. OurHE institutions, to a greater extent than FE, have faculty staff from the EU—it runs at about 11 per cent. That adds great diversity and strength to the quality of teaching within our institutions. Clearly, that is a concernfor students. They want to have the best teachers, they want access to the best learning opportunities, and we've been very clear about the importance of providing security and stability for those staff, making sure wesend very clear messages that they're very welcome and we value their contribution. NUS, again, also value the diversity in the student population. Again, as far as we've been able to, we've been able to give messagesabout the security of funding for European students for the next academic year. I wish I could go further, but that's out of my hands. We're working to the limits of what I feel comfortable in being able to guaranteewithout further guarantees from Westminster. So, we've been working closely with the student voice, and I think, Llyr, what's very clear is there is a consensus about what is important across the Government, theinstitutions and student voice. So, that is making sure we send very clear messages about Wales's institutions being open for business and that we welcome both EU and international students, that we value thecontribution of faculty, and that we want to be able to continue in Horizon 2020. That's especially important if we're looking at attracting postgraduate work and postgraduate students into our system, as well asErasmus+. The issue of post-study work visas, again, is very important. As I said, there's a consensus, I think, between the Government, the institutions and the students about what we need the UK Government toachieve for us.Lynne Neagle AM: Before we move on to student recruitment, it's increasingly the view of many experts that we're heading for a 'no deal' Brexit. Can I ask both of you what specific plans you've put inplace in the event of such a 'no deal' Brexit happening and us crashing out next spring?Eluned Morgan AM: Well, I think it's really difficult for us to prepare for a 'no deal' Brexit, but obviously we need to think throughvery carefully what that might look like, and I think that scenario planning is starting to happen. I think it's very different, again, for FE compared to HE. So, in relation to FE, what we do have is funding—ESFfunding—which the UK Government has said that they will underwrite until 2020. So, in March next year, if there is no deal, the immediate impact on FE is unlikely to hit in the way that we may have feared. Theproblem then becomes: what exactly is the deal with the EU in future, because we will have some kind of relationship, and what that impact will be on the broader economy and our ability to work with companieslocally, and industries, to provide that link between training needs? So, the colleges, basically, are providing the training for lots of the apprenticeships, and so if the number of companies reduces, then that is likely tohave an impact. So, there are specific sectors that we are more concerned about than others. Farming is obviously one that we are concerned about, because that could have a difference in terms of day one of no deal.If your markets are not there, that could be quite an immediate impact. Health and social care—obviously, we are concerned that there are a number of people who work in that sector who are EU citizens. What is theimpact? Are they going to feel unwelcome? Are they likely, then, to return home? Where will that skills gap, therefore, be? So, that's a problem for us. Construction is already an issue for us in terms of skills shortages.So, one of the things we're doing is we've developed these regional skills partnerships where we ask local employers, 'What is it that you need in terms of skills development?' and we are now asking further educationcolleges to respond to that need. So, rather than them just getting people through the college system, who are easy to get in because they're doing courses that they're excited about, let's try and encourage them to docourses where we know there are skills shortages. So, that is a new structure that we've developed that is already having an impact; there's a £10 million project there. So, we're already putting things in place for thosesituations. In manufacturing, obviously, if there's no deal, the rules of origin, that could have an immediate impact. Just-in-time—we could have real problems in terms of dislocation there; and hospitality and tourism.So, those are the sectors we have most concerns about, and all of them have very strong links to the FE sector.Kirsty Williams AM: From the HE perspective, from a point of principle, we just have to keep workingtowards some kind of deal. Although the prospect of no deal, maybe, has risen up the agenda, we have got to be consistent in our messages to the Westminster Government: we need a deal. Wales cannot afford tocrash out of the EU without a deal. If that worst-case scenario was to happen, because of the underwrite guarantee, actually, for European regional development fund and European social fund programmes in the HEsector, it would be business as usual. And because of the current underwrite guarantee, the forthcoming bids for Erasmus and Horizon 2020 would be covered, but they would be the last applications that could be made.You'll be aware that there are some proposals for an extension to that guarantee, but from my understanding and our understanding of it, that would only give us third-country status for Horizon 2020 and Erasmus.What that does mean is that we would have limited access to the Horizon 2020 programme, and if you look at the activity that is currently being undertaken by the Welsh HE sector under that programme, that wouldmean that we'd probably lose about 50 per cent of that work, because that's the split between the bits we would still be able to access and what we are currently accessing. As I've already said, we have made aguarantee for EU student support for the next academic year, but, without clarity from the Treasury, I don't think it would be prudent of me to commit Welsh Government to anything further than that. So, we continueto push the message that a 'no deal' would be catastrophic. What can we do? You'll be aware that we have been working with Universities Wales to access resources under the European transition fund, under the GlobalWales programme, to look to boost international marketing of the HE sector and to talk about the strengths that we have in the sector. And we continue to look at other opportunities within the EU transition pot ofmoney to assist the universities and the FE sector in that regard. We also continue to look to respond to the Reid review proposals, about how we can beef up our own research and continue to engage with UK Researchand Innovation to make sure that, with any research money that comes out of that negotiation, Wales is in a competitive position to be able to bid successfully for that.Lynne Neagle AM: Okay, thank you. We're going tomove on, then, to talk about student recruitment. I'm going to, because we've got a lot of questions, appeal for brief questions and answers that are as concise as possible, please. Hefin.Hefin David AM: How does theWelsh Government account for the fact that EU student applications in Wales this year—that Wales is the only country in the UK to have seen a significant drop?Kirsty Williams AM: Okay, well, I think the first thing toremember is that we will not get a full picture of student recruitment until, first of all, November and then the true picture, because some institutions, as you would know, have two admissions dates—we won't get thefull picture until the spring. I think it was inevitable, given the change in Government policy with regard to student support, which had previously allowed European students to benefit from a tuition fee grant, and giventhe fact that that option is no longer available to them, that that has had an impact on EU recruitment, and there's no point trying to hide from that.Hefin David AM: So, together with leaving the EU, that's adouble-whammy effect that's hitting Wales harder than the rest of the UK.Kirsty Williams AM: It just puts us in the same position as EU students applying to England, but it was inevitable. This was looked at byDiamond. It was anticipated that this could be a consequence of the change in policy, and I think we see that reflected in the initial figure, although, as I said, we won't get the true picture until the first census inNovember, and then, ultimately, the final picture in the spring.Hefin David AM: How concerned are you by that?Kirsty Williams AM: Clearly, we want our universities to be able to attract students from both the EU andfrom around the world. The fact that the tuition fee grant arrangements may have had an impact on European Union students at this stage does not preclude the fact that Wales, up until now, has been successful inrecruiting international students. So, the change in the fee regime should not be a barrier to the recruitment of international students, because, actually, international students outside of the EU make up a biggerproportion of students not from the UK who come to our institutions.Hefin David AM: That's a fair point, but it's unfortunate timing, though, isn't it?Kirsty Williams AM: I think, from a public policy point of view andmoving towards a sustainable way of funding our HE sector, then both my priority and, I would say, the priority of the institutions was to see the implementation of Diamond, which is what we have done.Hefin David


Grad B: Grad D: How many batteries do you go through ?Grad B: Thank you .Professor C: Alright .PhD A: Sure .Professor C: Good . Yeah . OK so , let 's get started . Nancy said she 's coming and that means she will be. Um . My suggestion is that Robert and Johno sort of give us a report on last week 's adventures uh to start . So everybody knows there were these guys f uh from Heidelber - uh , uh , actually from uh DFKI uh , part ofthe German SmartKom project , who were here for the week and , I think got a lot done .Grad E: Yeah , I think so too . Um . The {disfmarker} we got to the point where we can now speak into the SmartKom system ,and it 'll go all the way through and then say something like " Roman numeral one , am Smarticus . " It actually says , " Roemisch einz , am Smarticus , "Grad B: OK .Grad E: which means it 's just using a Germansythesis module for English sentences .Grad B: OK .Grad E: So uh ,Professor C: It doesn't know " I " .Grad B: OK .Grad E: Um , the uhGrad B: Oh , Am Spartacus . "Grad D: " I am Sm - I am Smarticus " is what it 'ssaying .PhD A: Right .Grad B: Verstehe . OK .Grad D: I gueGrad E: The uh sythesis is just a question of um , hopefully it 's just a question of exchanging a couple of files , once we have them . And , um , it 's not goingto be a problem because we decided to stick to the so - called concept to speech approach . So I 'm {disfmarker} I 'm {disfmarker} I 'm going backwards now , so " synthesis " is where you sort of make this{disfmarker} uh , make these sounds , and " concept to speech " is feeding into this synthesis module giving it what needs to be said , and the whole syntactic structure so it can pronounce things better , presumably .Then , just with text to speech .Grad B: Mm - hmm .Grad E: And , uh , Johno learned how to write XML tags . Uh , and did write the tree adjoining grammar for some {disfmarker} some sentences . No , right ?Grad D:Yeah .Grad E: Yeah , for a couple {disfmarker}Grad D: So . Bu - Uh , i The way the uh , the dialogue manager works is it dumps out what it wants to know , or what it wants to tell the person , to a {disfmarker} er inXML and there 's a conversion system for different uh , to go from XML to something else . And th so , the knowledge base for the system , that generates the syntasti syntactic structures for the ge generation is uh , ina LISP - like {disfmarker} the knowledge base is in a LISP - like form . And then the thing that actually builds these syntactic structures is something based on Prolog . So , you have a {disfmarker} basically , a goal andit , you know , says " OK , well I 'm gonna try to do the Greet - the - person goal ,Grad B: Mm - hmm .Grad D: so it just starts {disfmarker} uh , it binds some variables and it just decides to , you know , do somesubscold . Basically , it just means " build the tree . "Grad B: OK .Grad D: And then it passes the tree onto , uh , the ge the generation module .Grad E: But I think that the point is that out of the twelve possibleutterances that the German system can do , we 've already written the {disfmarker} the syntax trees for three or four .Grad D: We yeah . So , the syntax trees are very simple . It 's like most of the sentences in onetree ,Grad B: Mm - hmm .Grad D: and instead of , you know , breaking down to , like , small units and building back up , they basically took the sentences , and basically cut them in half , or you know , into thirds orsomething like that , and made trees out of those . And so uh , uh Tilman wrote a little tool that you could take LISP notation and generate an XML , uh , tree . Uh , S what do ca structure from the {disfmarker} fromthe LISP . And so basically you just say , you know , " noun goes to " , you know , Er , nah , I don't re I 've never been good at those . So there 's like the VP goes to N and those things in LISP , and it will generate foryou .Grad B: OK . N , N , V yeah , OK . Alright .Grad E: And because we 're sticking to that structure , the synthesis module doesn't need to be changed . So all that f fancy stuff , and the Texas speech version of it ,which is actually the simpler version , is gonna be done in October which is much too late for us . So . This way we {disfmarker} we worked around that . The , uh {disfmarker} the system , um {disfmarker} I can showyou the system . I actually want , at least , maybe , you should be able to start it on your own . If you wanna play around with it , in th in the future . Right now it 's brittle and you need to ch start it up and then makets twenty changes on {disfmarker} on {disfmarker} on {disfmarker} on seventeen modules before they actually can stomach it , anything . And send in a {disfmarker} a {disfmarker} a couple of side queries on somedummy center set - up program so that it actually works because it 's designed for this seevit thing , where you have the gestural recognition running with this s Siemens virtual touch screen , which we don't have here.Grad B: Mm - hmm .Grad E: And so we 're doing it via mouse , but the whole system was designed to work with this thing and it was {disfmarker} It was a lot of engineering stuff . No science in there whatsoever , butit 's working now , and um , that 's the good news . So everything else actually did prove to be language independent except for the parsing and the generation .Grad D: Why {disfmarker} I had {disfmarker} I did needto chan generate different trees than the German ones , mainly because you know like uh , the gerund in {disfmarker} in German is automatically taken care of with just a regular verb ,Grad E: You have to switch it on.Grad B: Mm - hmm .Grad D: so I 'd uh have to add " am walking , "Grad B: OK .Grad D: or I 'd have to add a little stem for the " am " , when I build the {disfmarker} built the tree .Grad B: OK . Yeah , I noticed thatum , that some of the examples they had , had you know , non - English word orders and so on , you know . And then all that good stuff . So .Professor C: Alright .Grad D: Yeah .Grad B: Like .Professor C: So it might beworth , Keith , you looking at this ,Grad B: Yeah .Professor C: umGrad B: I {disfmarker} I still don't {disfmarker} I still don't really understand e like {disfmarker}Grad D: Well Tilman sGrad B: I mean we sort of say ,um {disfmarker} You know , I {disfmarker} I still don't exactly understand sort of the information flow uh in {disfmarker} in this thing , or what the modules are and so on . So , you know , like just that such - and -such module uh um decides that it wants to achieve the goal of greeting the user , and then magically it sort of sProfessor C: Yeah {disfmarker}Grad B: I mean , how does it know which syntactic structure to pull out ,and all that ?Professor C: I thi Yeah . So . I think it 's not worth going over in the group ,Grad B: R uh Sure .Professor C: but sort of when you get free and you have the time uh either Robert or Johno or I can walk youthrough it .Grad B: Yeah , soon . OK .Professor C: And you can ask all the questions about how this all fits together .Grad B: That 's fine .Professor C: It 's eee {comment} messy but once you understand it youunderstand it . It 's {disfmarker} it 's {disfmarker} There 's nothing really complicated about it .Grad B: OK .Grad E: No .Grad B: And I remember one thing that {disfmarker} that came up in the talk last Wednesday .Um , was this , I {disfmarker} I think he talked about the idea of like , um {disfmarker} He was talking about these lexicalized uh , uh , tree adjoining grammars where you sort of {disfmarker} for each word you , um{disfmarker}Grad D: OK , you know how to do it ?Grad B: For each lexical item , the lexical entry says what all the uh trees are that it can appear in . And of course , that 's not v That 's the opposite of constructional .That 's , you know , that 's {disfmarker} that 's HPSG or whatever .Professor C: Right .Grad B: You know ?Professor C: Right . Now , we 're {disfmarker} we 're not committed for our research to {pause} do any ofthose things .Grad B: Yeah . Mm - hmm .Professor C: So uh we are committed for our funding .Grad B: Right .Professor C: OK ? to {pause} uh {disfmarker}Grad B: Make our stuff fit to that .Professor C: Yeah , to{disfmarker} n no , to just get the dem get the demos they need .Grad B: Uh - huh .Professor C: OK ? So between us all we have t to get th the demos they need . If it turns out we can also give them lots more thanthat by , you know , tapping into other things we do , that 's great .Grad D: You should probably move the microphone closer to your face .Grad B: Mm - hmm .Professor C: But i it turns out not to be in an any of thecontractsGrad D: There 's like a little {disfmarker} The twisty thing , you can move it with .Grad B: OK .Professor C: and , s deliberately . So , the reason I 'd like you to understand uh what 's going on in this demosystem is not because it 's important to the research . It 's just for closure . So that if we come up with a question of " could we fit this deeper stuff in there ? " or something . You know what the hell we we 're talkingabout fitting in .Grad B: Right . OK .Professor C: So it 's just , uh in the sam same actually with the rest of us we just need to really understand what 's there . Is there anything we can make use of ? Uh , is thereanything we can give back , beyond th the sort of minimum requirements ? But none of that has a short time fuse .Grad B: OK .Professor C: So th the demo the demo requirements for this Fall are sort of taken care ofas of later this week or something . And then {disfmarker} So , it 's probably fifteen months or something until there 's another serious demo requirement .Grad B: Oh OK .Professor C: That doesn't mean we don't thinkabout it for fifteen months ,Grad B: Right .Professor C: but it means we can not think about it for six months .Grad B: Right , yeah .Professor C: So . The plan for this summer uh , really is to step back from the appliedproject ,Grad E: Right .Professor C: keep the d keep the context open , but actually go after the basic issues .Grad B: Hmm . Oh OK .Professor C: And , so The idea is there 's this uh , other subgroup that 's worryingabout formalizing the nota getting a notation . But sort of in parallel with that , uh , the hope is tha in particularly you will work on constructions in English Ge - and German for this domain ,Grad B: Mm - hmm.Professor C: but y not worry about parsing them or fitting them into SmartKom or any of the other {disfmarker} anything lik any other constraints for the time being .Grad B: Yeah . OK . Got it .Professor C: It 's hardenough to get it semantically and syntactically right and then {disfmarker} and get the constructions in their form and stuff .Grad B: Yeah .Professor C: And , I don I don't want you f feeling that you have to somehowmeet all these other constraints .Grad B: Right , OK .Professor C: Um . And similarly with the parsing , uh we 're gonna worry about parsing uh , the general case you know , construction parser for general constructions. And , if we need a cut - down version for something , or whatever , we 'll worry about that later .Grad B: OK .Professor C: So I 'd like to , for the summer turn into science mode .Grad B: OK .Professor C: And I assumethat 's also , uh , your plan as well .Grad B: So I mean , the {disfmarker} the point is that like the meetings um so far that I 've been at have been {disfmarker} sort of been geared towards this demo ,Professor C:Right . Yeah . Yeah .Grad B: and then that 's going to go away pretty soon .Professor C: But {disfmarker} but we we 're switGrad B: OK .Professor C: Right .Grad B: And then we 'll sort of shift gears a Fairlysubstantially ,Professor C: Yeah .Grad E: It 's {disfmarker}Professor C: Yeah .Grad B: huh ?Professor C: Yeah .Grad E: It 's got . What I {disfmarker} what I think is {disfmarker} is a good idea that I can {disfmarker}can show to anyone who 's interested , we can even make a {disfmarker} sort of an internal demo , and I {disfmarker} I show you what I do ,Grad B: Mm - hmm .Grad E: I speak into it and you hear it talk ,Grad B: OK.Grad E: and I can sort of walk f through the information . So , this is like in half hour or forty - five minutes . Just fun .Grad B: OK .Grad E: And so you {disfmarker} when somebody on the streets com comes up to youand asks you what is SmartKom so you can , sort of , give a sensible answer .Grad B: Right . OK .Professor C: So , c sh we could set that up as actually an institute wide thing ? Just give a talk in the big room , and{disfmarker} and so peo people know what 's going on ? when you 're ready ?Grad E: Absolutely .Professor C: Yeah I mean , that 's the kind of thing {disfmarker} That 's the level at which you know we can just li inviteeverybody and say " this is a project that we 've been working on and here 's a demo version of it " and stuff like that .Grad B: Yeah .Grad E: OK . Well d we {disfmarker} we do wanna have all the bugs out b where youhave to sort of pipe in extra XML messages from left and right before you 're {disfmarker}Grad B: Uh - huh .Professor C: Indeed .Grad E: Yeah . OK . Makes sense .Professor C: But any so that {disfmarker} e e It 'sclear , then , I think . Actually , roughly starting uh let 's say , nex next meeting , cuz this meeting we have one other thing to tie up besides the trip report .Grad B: Yeah . OK .Professor C: But uh starting next meetingI think we want to flip into this mode where {disfmarker} Uh . I mean there are a lot of issues , what 's the ontology look like ,Grad B: Mm - hmm .Professor C: you know what do the constructions look like , what 's theexecution engine look like , mmm lots of things .Grad B: Mm - hmm .Professor C: But , more focused on uh an idealized version than just getting the demo out . Now before we do that , let 's get back in {disfmarker}Oh ! But , it 's still , I think , useful for you to understand the demo version enough , so that you can {disfmarker} can see what {disfmarker} what it is that {disfmarker} that uh it might eventually get retro - fitted intoor something .Grad B: Yeah . OK , right .Professor C: And Johno 's already done that , uh , looked at the dem uh the {disfmarker} looked at the SmartKom stuff .Grad D: Wa uh {disfmarker} To some de uh what{disfmarker} what part of th the SmartKom stuff ?Professor C: Well , the parser , and that stuff .Grad D: Oh yeah {disfmarker} yeah .Professor C: OK . Anyway . So , the trip {disfmarker} the report on these{disfmarker} the last we we sort of interrupted you guys telling us about what happened last week .Grad B: Yeah . It 's alright .Grad E: Um . {vocalsound} Well it was just amazing to {disfmarker} to see uh how{disfmarker} how instable the whole thing is ,Professor C: Maybe you 're done , then .Grad E: and if you just take the {disfmarker} And I g I got the feeling that we are {pause} the only ones right now who have arunning system . I don't know what the guys in Kaiserslautern have running because e the version {disfmarker} that is , the full version that 's on the server d does not work . And you need to do a lot of stuff to make itwork . And so it 's {disfmarker} And even Tilman and Ralf sort of said " yeah there never was a really working version that uh did it without th all the shortcuts that they built in for the uh October @ @ version " . So we're actually maybe ahead of the System Gruppe by now , the system {disfmarker} the integration group . And it was , uh {disfmarker} It was fun to some extent , but the uh the outcome that is sort of of scientificinterest is that I think both Ralf and Tilman {disfmarker} um , I know that they enjoyed it here , and they r they {disfmarker} they liked , uh , a lot of the stuff they saw here , what {disfmarker} what we have beenthinking about , and they 're more than willing to {disfmarker} to um , cooperate , by all means . And um , part of my responsibility is uh to use our internal " group - ware " server at EML , make that open to all of usand them , so that whatever we discuss in terms of parsing and {disfmarker} and generating and constructions w we {disfmarker} we sort of uh put it in there and they put what they do in there and maybe we caneven um , get some overlap , get some synergy out of that . And um , the , uh {disfmarker} If I find someone at {disfmarker} in EML that is interested in that , um I {disfmarker} I may even think that we could look{disfmarker} take constructions and {disfmarker} and generate from them because the tree adjoining grammars that {disfmarker} that Tilman is using is as you said nothing but a mathematical formalism . And youcan just do anything with it , whether it 's syntactic trees , H P S G - like stuff , or whether it 's construction . So if you ever get to the generation side of constructing things and there might be something of interestthere , but in the moment we 're of course definitely focused on the understanding , um , pipeline .Professor C: Anyth - any other {vocalsound} {comment} uh repo visit reports sort of stories ? uh we {disfmarker} sowe now know I think , what the landscape is like .Grad B: Mm - hmm .Professor C: And so we just push on and {disfmarker} and uh , do what we need to do . And one of the things we need to do is the um , and this Ithink is relatively tight {disfmarker} tightly constrained , is to finish up this belief - net stuff . So . Uh . And I was going to switch to start talking about that unless there 're m other more general questions . OK so here's where we are on the belief - net stuff as far as I understand it . Um . Going back I guess two weeks ago uh Robert had laid out this belief - net , missing only the connections . Right ? That is {disfmarker} {comment}So , he 'd put all th all the dots down , and we went through this , and , I think , more or less convinced ourselves that at least the vast majority of the nodes that we needed for the demo level we were thinking of ,were in there . Yeah {comment} we may run across one or two more . But of course the connections weren't . So , uh Bhaskara and I went off and looked at some technical questions about were certain operations sortof legitimate belief - net computations and was there some known problem with them or had someone already uh , solved you know how to do this and stuff . And so Bhaskara tracked that down . The answer seems tobe uh , " no , no one has done it , but yes it 's a perfectly reasonable thing to do if that 's what you set out to do " . And , so the current state of things is that , again , starting now , um we 'd like to actually get arunning belief - net for this particular subdomain done in the next few weeks . So Bhaskara is switching projects as of the first of June , and uh , he 's gonna leave us an inheritance , which is a uh {disfmarker} hopefullya belief - net that does these things . And there 're two aspects to it , one of which is , you know , technical , getting the coding right , and making it run , and uh stuff like that . And the other is the actual semantics .OK ? What all {disfmarker} you know , what are the considerations and how and what are the ways in which they relate . So he doe h he doesn't need help from this group on the technical aspects or if he does uh we 'lldo that separately .Grad B: Mm - hmm .Professor C: But in terms of what are the decisions and stuff like that , that 's something that we all have to work out . Is {disfmarker} is that right ? I mean that 's {disfmarker}that 's both you guys ' understanding of where we are ?Grad E: Absolutely .Professor C: OK .Grad G: So , I guess , um {disfmarker} Is there like a latest version of the belief - net {disfmarker} of the proposed belief -net ? Like {disfmarker}Grad E: We had um decided {disfmarker}Grad G: like {disfmarker}Grad E: Um . Well , no , we didn't decide . We wanted to look into maybe getting it , the visualization , a bit clearer , but I thinkif we do it , um , sort of a paper version of all the nodes and then the connections between them , that should suffice .Grad G: Mm - hmm . Yeah , that should be fine .Professor C: Yeah I mean , that 's a separateproblem .Grad D: Yeah , I {disfmarker}Professor C: We do in the long run wanna do better visualization and all that stuff .Grad E: Yeah .Professor C: That 's separable , yeah .Grad D: I did look into that , uh in terms of, you know , exploding the nodes out and down agProfessor C: Yep . Right .Grad D: JavaBayes does not support that . I can imagine a way of hacking at the code to do that . It 'd probably take two weeks or so toactually go through and do it ,Professor C: Not {disfmarker} not at this point .Grad D: and I went through all the other packages on Murph - Kevin Murphy 's page ,Professor C: Right .Grad D: and I couldn't find thenecessary mix of free and uh with the GUI and , with this thing that we want .Professor C: Well , we can p If it 's {disfmarker} If we can pay {disfmarker} Yeah . If you know it 's paying a thousand dollars or somethingwe can do that . OK ? So {disfmarker} so don't view free as {disfmarker} as a absolute constraint .Grad D: OK . OK , so then I 'll go back and look at the ones on the list that {disfmarker}Professor C: OK . And you canask Kevin .Grad E: But {disfmarker}Grad G: Yeah .Grad D: Mmm .Grad E: But {disfmarker}Grad G: Yeah , the one that uh people seem to use is uh Hugin or whatever ?Professor C: Hugin , yeah that 's free .Grad G:


Project Manager: {vocalsound}Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} {vocalsound}Project Manager: {vocalsound}Industrial Designer: Okay .Project Manager: Okay everyone's ready .User Interface: Hello .ProjectManager: So we are here for uh for uh functional design .User Interface: {gap}Project Manager: Okay ? So we are here for the functional design meeting mm {vocalsound} so first I will show the agenda so we will uh Iwill take notes during this meeting so I will try to summarise it and put that summary in the shared folder if you want to look at it afterwardsUser Interface: {vocalsound}Project Manager: so then uh each of you will uhlead a presentation on the task that has been required last time so user requirement specification , technical function design and working design . Then I will uh present you some new project requirements I receivedfrom uh the management board . Then we will take uh the decision on on the remote control uh needed functions and then I will assign you the task for the next part of the meeting . Of the {disfmarker} of the process .So uh who want to start the the presentation of what they did ?Industrial Designer: F do you want to start ?User Interface: Make a start yeah .Project Manager: You can start .User Interface: So . {vocalsound}ProjectManager: {vocalsound}User Interface: Cable , camera .Project Manager: You have uh PowerPoint ?User Interface: Should be in my {disfmarker} in their folder no ?Project Manager: Ah yeah maybe there . Okay .UserInterface: Up .Project Manager: Who are you ? {vocalsound}User Interface: Um at three I think .Project Manager: {vocalsound}User Interface: No ? {vocalsound} Mm .Project Manager: Ouch . And {disfmarker}UserInterface: {vocalsound}Industrial Designer: Okay . {vocalsound}Project Manager: We have a technical problem uh .User Interface: Do we think w s in the {disfmarker} in the wrong folder maybe ? {vocalsound} It ispossible .Project Manager: You put it on {disfmarker}Industrial Designer: No .User Interface: It was somewhere in something like this . I don't remember the name actually must be something like messenger AMI orsomething .Industrial Designer: What do you have in short cut ?User Interface: Go up .Industrial Designer: Participant two .User Interface: Yeah go up .Project Manager: Yeah .User Interface: Again . No . Go back.Project Manager: You have no {disfmarker}User Interface: Uh maybe messenger AMI . Messenger .Project Manager: Over . Okay .User Interface: No . There is nothing .Project Manager: There's no {disfmarker} Wehave a technical problem .User Interface: Let's go and check .Industrial Designer: Yeah .User Interface: I'll go and check .Industrial Designer: Otherwise , could you just describe by hand ?User Interface: Okay.Industrial Designer: With the the whiteboard ?Project Manager: If you remember yeahUser Interface: Yeah . Yeah .Project Manager: but that's {disfmarker}User Interface: So uh . Basically {vocalsound} what we wanthere is a remote control right .Project Manager: Yeah .User Interface: {vocalsound} So um the question well first of all what to control . So {vocalsound} most people want to have a a remote for their hi-fi and T_V_and stuff like that .Industrial Designer: Mm-hmm .User Interface: And {disfmarker} but other people want th also remotes for {vocalsound} controlling uh and toys like robotic pets and little robots and stuffIndustrialDesigner: Mm-hmm .User Interface: and other people also want to have remotes for controlling um whole house .Project Manager: Yeah .Industrial Designer: Mm-hmm .User Interface: Yeah , so there's a project I thinkcalled X_ house or something like that that does that , uh you can integrate your remote with uh computers stuff . So {vocalsound}Industrial Designer: Mm-hmm .User Interface: there is one {disfmarker} that is onething . The other is the the finder feature yeah by whistling or whatever . Uh if you have the finder feature then you can also haveIndustrial Designer: Okay .User Interface: uh at the same time as {disfmarker} andgeneral voice commands if you want yeah . {vocalsound} So I think it should be a package in that case .Industrial Designer: Mm-hmm .User Interface: Uh so the user interface will consist of two parts . {vocalsound}One is the voice command part and on one is the actual buttons part . {vocalsound} Uh and th the buttons part would be uh a set of buttons for choosing devices , a set of buttons for special navigation in space,Industrial Designer: Mm-hmm . Mm-hmm .User Interface: a set of buttons for {vocalsound} linear access of medium and a set of buttons for random access .Project Manager: Okay .User Interface: Yeah ?IndustrialDesigner: What do you mean by linear access then ?User Interface: Like a video tape goes forward , backwards , uh fast and stuff yeah .Industrial Designer: Ah .Project Manager: Okay so special navigation , linearaccess , random accessUser Interface: Um .Project Manager: and there's a fourth one no ?User Interface: Mm ?Project Manager: So the better now for special navigation ?User Interface: Yeah . For special navigation forexample you might have a T_V_ in the menu and you going to change yeah ?Project Manager: Okay . Then linear accessUser Interface: Uh .Project Manager: then random access .User Interface: Mm . Yeah and alsoparameter changing .Project Manager: Ah yeah parameter okay .User Interface: {vocalsound} So if there are common parameters maybe we should put special buttons for that umProject Manager: Okay .UserInterface: or maybe we could have everything uh generic but uh there are a lot of uh remotes on the market right now and {vocalsound} basically this is most of the {disfmarker} almost everybody has this stuff.Project Manager: Okay . Okay and and voice command did you uh {disfmarker}User Interface: Voice command w we could specify anything . We could assign any button {disfmarker} a command to any button , if wehave enough processing power ,Project Manager: Okay . Okay .User Interface: I guess so . {vocalsound} Yeah .Project Manager: Okay .User Interface: Yeah .Project Manager: So that's uh that close your investigations?User Interface: Yeah .Project Manager: Okay .User Interface: Uh yeah I think so .Project Manager: Okay .User Interface: Not so far .Project Manager: Maybe we can have a look at the user requirements with{disfmarker}Marketing: Yeah . {vocalsound} Um I dunno if you can open the {disfmarker}Project Manager: I dunno if I can open it . Maybe you can sMarketing: uh m is not here .Project Manager: It's{disfmarker}Marketing: Uh in {disfmarker} yeah okay .Project Manager: Messenger no ?Marketing: No . In document {gap} . Mm computer yeah .Project Manager: In which folder ?User Interface: Where did you put it?Marketing: Here . Here .Project Manager: {vocalsound} Short-cut to AMI shared folder ?User Interface: {gap} mm .Marketing: But it's not {disfmarker} Um .Project Manager: Maybe you can send it to me by email .Just to participant one . At AMI .Marketing: Mm-hmm . Yeah , I can do that .Project Manager: I will try to show it to everyone , that would be more comfortable .Marketing: Okay . Um .Project Manager: You send it?Marketing: {vocalsound} It's participant one ?Project Manager: Yeah . Uh this is this email .User Interface: I'm designing the user interface . {vocalsound}Marketing: Okay . You can uh .Project Manager: Okay . Somaybe I can switch slides when you {disfmarker} whenever you ask ,Marketing: Yeah .Project Manager: that will be more convenient . So okay , functional requirements .Marketing: Okay so you can {disfmarker} youcan go . Okay so {vocalsound} in our usability lab we observed the remote control use among one hundred subjectsProject Manager: Mm .Marketing: and the subjects also filled a questionnaireProject Manager: Yeah.Marketing: okay ? And here I have the results so you can see that um seventy five per cent of users find most remote controls ugly so we have to find something to make them more {vocalsound} more nice , morekind . Eighty per cents of users would spend more money when the remote control would look fancy . {vocalsound} Eighty hundred per cent of users would spend more money when the remote control would look{disfmarker}Project Manager: {vocalsound}User Interface: {vocalsound}Marketing: oh {disfmarker} to {disfmarker} it's not good . {vocalsound} So okay .Project Manager: We can just keep doing that ?Marketing: Soit's not in theory {disfmarker} but I I can I can say yeah . {vocalsound}Project Manager: Yeah .Marketing: Fifty f uh seventy five per cent of users say they s zap a lot . So mm {vocalsound} we have to have a remotecontrol uh very um {vocalsound} out for that . {vocalsound} Uh the buttons have {disfmarker} are to be um uh uh like you say resist resisting to to shocks .Project Manager: Okay .Marketing: {vocalsound} Um andfifty per cents of users say they only use uh {vocalsound} ten per cents of but of the buttons in the {disfmarker} in the remote control .Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}Project Manager: Okay .Marketing: So all thebuttons we we have to put are {disfmarker} have to to have um a use a real useProject Manager: Okay .Marketing: and not only or {disfmarker}Project Manager: Okay , so fewer buttons maybe would be good?Marketing: Yeah . F not many buttons , and uh and uh uh u useable buttons {vocalsound} .Project Manager: Okay .User Interface: But what kind of remote controls did you look at ?Marketing: Sorry ?User Interface:What kind of task was it ? It was a T_V_ ?Marketing: Yeah . Uh {vocalsound} most for most is T_V_ .Project Manager: Yeah . Yeah but in fact we {disfmarker} it it seems that we are going to make a T_V_ remotecontrol according to new requirements I received from the managementUser Interface: Huh .Project Manager: bo I will present them in the following .User Interface: Uh-huh . Ah ! Good .Marketing: {vocalsound} 'Kayyou can go so .Project Manager: Okay .Marketing: So there are other frustrations expressed by users , so they said uh they lost uh often the remote control in in the room so they want to have a way to {vocalsound}toProject Manager: Yeah . To find it .Marketing: to find it .Project Manager: Yeah .Marketing: Um and um lot of the time they {disfmarker} it takes too much time to learn how to use a new remote control .ProjectManager: Yeah .Marketing: So they want something s really very simple and uh easy to use .Industrial Designer: Mm-hmm .Project Manager: Okay .Marketing: And uh remote controls are bad forProject Manager: Whatis her other side ?Marketing: R_S_I_ {vocalsound} um {disfmarker}User Interface: Other side yeah , yo wa your wristMarketing: I dunno .Project Manager: {vocalsound}User Interface: It i can become painful you canhave tendonditis .Project Manager: Oh yeah ?User Interface: Yeah .Project Manager: I did not knew that .User Interface: If you also {gap} up on a computer in a strange position .Project Manager: Okay so you{disfmarker} we have to make it uh more ergonomic yeah .User Interface: Ergonomic . But uh {vocalsound} .Marketing: Yeah .User Interface: Have to say ha ha . {vocalsound}Project Manager: {vocalsound} It's yourjob {vocalsound}Marketing: {vocalsound}Project Manager: Oh . {vocalsound}Marketing: {vocalsound} Uh .Project Manager: Uh sorry {vocalsound} got a message from Microsoft . {vocalsound}Industrial Designer:{vocalsound}Marketing: {vocalsound} Okay um before that I I have some some {vocalsound} some thing {vocalsound} uh to say before um {disfmarker}Project Manager: Yeah . Yeah yeah .Marketing: {vocalsound}We know that uh the user use uh a lot their um remote control um to to change channel .Project Manager: Yeah .Marketing: {vocalsound} Um and um to to change uh volume selection of the {disfmarker}ProjectManager: Okay .Marketing: and uh and not uh a lot for setting {disfmarker} for setting the the channels and uh thing things like that .Project Manager: Yeah .Industrial Designer: Mm-hmm .Project Manager: Okay .UserInterface: Mm-hmm .Marketing: So it's better to put uh uh uh something very easy to set and uh and {disfmarker}Project Manager: Yeah . This function should be very uh accessible .Marketing: Very accessible yes.Project Manager: Yeah , okay . This is the main function okay .Marketing: That's right . {vocalsound} So then we asked some questions to themProject Manager: Yeah .Marketing: and um we asked this question if theyprefer an L_C_D_ screen or on their remultific function remotes controlProject Manager: Yeah .Marketing: and if they mm pay more for speech recognition in remote controlProject Manager: Yeah .Marketing: and youcan go {vocalsound} we have here the results ofUser Interface: The first question .Marketing: of the questions . So you know that umProject Manager: {vocalsound}Marketing: {vocalsound} for the younger it's veryimportantProject Manager: To have L_C_D_ and voice .Marketing: to have the s yes and speech recognition . And uh and the others is not so important but uh we know that uh uh people between fifteen and twenty fiveare people who watch a lot T_V_ and uh who who wh can use a lot this uh .Project Manager: Okay .Marketing: So maybe we we can have a speech recognition in .Project Manager: Yeah maybe this this is important.Marketing: Yeah .Project Manager: Moreover th maybe those uh like those teenager customer could advice their parents to buy this equipment and so we can {disfmarker}User Interface: Mm .Project Manager: wehave to take care of that point of view I think or so .Marketing: Mm .Project Manager: Yeah .Marketing: Okay and if there is th the conclusion now . So as we say before , I think uh um a remote control lightening in thedark it's it's a good thing .Project Manager: Okay .Marketing: Uh not to many mud buttons like we we said before ,Project Manager: Yeah .Marketing: e easy to use uh a way to find it easily in the room and uh uhresistant to to shock and to to {disfmarker}Industrial Designer: Mm-hmm .Project Manager: Okay .Marketing: {vocalsound} An I s no , yeah .Project Manager: {vocalsound} Okay these are the user requiMarketing:{vocalsound} I dunno if you see something else important or {disfmarker}Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}Project Manager: {vocalsound}Industrial Designer: I'm just thinking of some thing .Project Manager: Yeah.Marketing: Mm .Industrial Designer: Um {disfmarker} We want to have a {disfmarker} no , I don't know if this is a good idea . We want to have a a general remote control for everything .Project Manager: No no no .We {disfmarker} w it seems that we no want to have a T_V_ remote control . From the management board I receive an email .User Interface: Mm .Industrial Designer: Okay . Yeah .Project Manager: Cos it would becostly uh and and also it it would take more time to develop to have a a general generic remote control .Industrial Designer: Yeah . Yeah yeah . Yeah .User Interface: Mm {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} it's not true I think. The the second claim that you put .Industrial Designer: No no . {vocalsound}Project Manager: That it would be too long to develop .User Interface: Yeah .Marketing: {vocalsound}User Interface: I think that should bethe same .Project Manager: Oh yeah . Because I received that email from management board and they seems to tell that that if we want to be on the market as early as possible we should uh focus on T_V_ more whereit seems that the market is more important . So maybe it's a good decision . I dunno . What's your opinion ?User Interface: I have uh I've no idea I mean I should know a bit more about how fast we can uh design it.Marketing: {vocalsound}User Interface: I don't think {disfmarker}Project Manager: {vocalsound}Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}Marketing: {vocalsound}User Interface: Uh yeah .Industrial Designer: Finish tonight.Project Manager: {vocalsound}User Interface: Yeah . Okay . Yeah .Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} But basically yeah maybe I can continue with my presentation , it would be al you {disfmarker} you{disfmarker}Project Manager: Okay .User Interface: Yeah .Marketing: Yeah .Industrial Designer: but I think we have some technical problem or so . So I'm just going to describe briefly what we do in the remote control.Project Manager: Maybe you can go to the whiteboard if you have some drawings to doIndustrial Designer: If fact {disfmarker}Project Manager: I don't know .Industrial Designer: Yeah but {disfmarker}Marketing: Mm.Industrial Designer: Do I have {disfmarker} oh yeah .Project Manager: {vocalsound}Industrial Designer: Now I have enough cables .User Interface: Like a {disfmarker} you feel a bit like a dog with this stuff .ProjectManager: {vocalsound}Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Okay so I'm just going to describe {disfmarker} in fact for for a remote control this is quite easy . We just have {disfmarker}Project Manager:{vocalsound}User Interface: {vocalsound}Industrial Designer: sorry , I'm going {vocalsound}Project Manager: Okay .User Interface: {vocalsound}Project Manager: Are you okay ? {vocalsound}Industrial Designer:Like that . I'm just going to describe . Basically we have a a battery a power supply here . After that we just have um user interface . Let's say that um something like that , which could be um a L_C_D_ let's say or uman array of push button , something like that . Push button or a L_C_D_ . After that we we feed that into um uh an electronic chip . So I say U_C_ and I feed that to uh L_E_D_ which is uh infrared {disfmarker} umwhich is a an infrared um component . And so what we {disfmarker} for for myself this {disfmarker} for for us this is quite easy .Project Manager: U_C_ is the central unit ?Industrial Designer: Yeah .Project Manager:Okay yeah .Industrial Designer: Y it's a {disfmarker} it's {disfmarker} this just a chip which does all the um numericalProject Manager: Computation .Industrial Designer: numerical computation according to yourdisplay .Project Manager: Okay .Industrial Designer: And so for us uh this is quite easy . We just need to take {disfmarker} to define what we want to do when the user interface um wants something and after that wejust do the coding to s and send that to to to the {disfmarker} not the {disfmarker} to the television .Project Manager: Okay .Industrial Designer: So for us this is quite easy .Project Manager: Okay so this is quite easy. There is not that much constraints .Industrial Designer: Yeah . Um we just have to define the processing power that we need uh especially if we want to do some uh speech recognition , in that case that mean that weare going to use more for simple {disfmarker}User Interface: {vocalsound} This will {disfmarker} think this will take more time to develop also .Industrial Designer: Yeah of course of course .User Interface: Yeah .{vocalsound}Industrial Designer: And um but for a standard one this is really easy . It's a question of one month and so on sUser Interface: Soon .Project Manager: To have a {disfmarker} you s you speak about withvoi voice control ?Industrial Designer: No no no no ,Project Manager: Standard button one .Industrial Designer: I say {disfmarker} yeah {disfmarker} standard uh standard remote control takes maybe uh one month toto do that .User Interface: Yeah . So the only time problem is the sp voice recognition .Marketing: {vocalsound}Industrial Designer: Yeah .User Interface: Yeah .Industrial Designer: Definitely .User Interface: Yeah.Project Manager: So do you have any idea of how long it would take to have voice recognition now ?User Interface: {vocalsound} Ten years .Industrial Designer: I would say {vocalsound} .Project Manager:{vocalsound} {vocalsound}User Interface: {vocalsound}Industrial Designer: I would say uh about eight months to have the first results .Project Manager: {vocalsound} Okay so i it's a bit long yeah .IndustrialDesigner: Yeah . I can {disfmarker} Um .Project Manager: One month for the standard one with button .Industrial Designer: Yeah .Project Manager: Even if we have a L_C_D_ display ?Industrial Designer: Yeah even . Imean that this is really standard devices now . Um eight . For uh speech recognition .Project Manager: Okay yeah . Okay so we can take this into account . So who think it would be good to go for uh like speechrecognition ?User Interface: But we don't have time to market .Project Manager: {vocalsound} Yeah it will .Industrial Designer: And also {disfmarker} how much uh I thinkUser Interface: I think we should contactmanagement .Industrial Designer: during the kickoff meeting you say that we we shouldn't {disfmarker} we shouldn't go up to twelve point five Euro per unitMarketing: {vocalsound}Project Manager: Euros . Yeah ,yeah .Industrial Designer: so how many units should we sell to have a {disfmarker}User Interface: Well . Uh {disfmarker}Project Manager: Well each unit is is sell uh twenty five Euros .Industrial Designer: Yeah but


Grad A: Yeah , I think I got my mike on . OK . Let 's see .Professor B: OK . Ami , do yours then we 'll open it and I think it 'll be enough .Grad A: Mmm {disfmarker} Doesn't , uh {disfmarker} It should be the other way. Yeah , now it 's on .PhD F: Right . OK .Professor B: OK . So , we all switched on ?Grad A: We are all switched on , yeah .Professor B: Alright . Anyway . So , uh , before we get started with the , uh , technical part , Ijust want to review what I think is happening with the {disfmarker} our data collection .PhD F: We are all switched on .Professor B: So {disfmarker} {vocalsound} Uh , probably after today , {vocalsound} thatshouldn't come up in this meeting . Th - this {disfmarker} this is s should be im it isn't {disfmarker} There 's another thing going on of gathering data , and that 's pretty much independent of this . But , uh , I just wantto make sure we 're all together on this . What we think is gonna happen is that , uh , in parallel starting about now {vocalsound} we 're gonna get Fey {vocalsound} to , where you 're working with me and Robert ,draft a note that we 're gonna send out to various CogSci c and other classes saying , " here 's an opportunity to be a subject . Contact Fey . " And then there 'll be a certain number of um , hours during the week whichshe will be available and we 'll bring in people . Uh , roughly how many , Robert ? We d Do we know ?Grad C: Um , fifty was our {disfmarker} sort of our first {disfmarker}Professor B: OK . So , we 're looking for a totalof fifty people , not necessarily by any means all students but we 'll s we 'll start with {disfmarker} with that . In parallel with that , we 're gonna need to actually do the script . And , so , I guess there 's a plan to have ameeting Friday afternoon Uh , with {disfmarker} uh , Jane , and maybe Liz and whoever , on actually getting the script worked out . But what I 'd like to do , if it 's O K , {vocalsound} is to s to , as I say , start therecruiting in parallel and possibly start running subjects next week . The week after that 's Spring Break , and maybe we 'll look for them {disfmarker} some subjects next doorGrad C: Yeah .Professor B: or {pause}iGrad C: Yeah . Also , Fey will not be here during spring break .Professor B: Oh , OK , then we won't do it .Grad C: So .Professor B: OK . So that 's easy . Um . So , is {disfmarker} Is that make sense to everybody ?GradC: Yeah . Also , um , F {vocalsound} both Fey and I will , um , {vocalsound} do something of which I may , eh {disfmarker} kindly ask you to {disfmarker} to do the same thing , which is we gonna check out our socialinfrastructures for possible subjects . Meaning , {vocalsound} um , kid children 's gymnastic classes , pre - school parents and so forth . They also sometimes have flexible schedules . So , if you happen to be sort of in anon - student social setting , and you know people who may be interested in being subjects {disfmarker} We also considered using the Berkeley High School and their teachers , maybe , and get them interested in stuff.Professor B: That 's a good idea .Grad C: And , um . So that 's as far as our brainstorming was concerned .Professor B: Oh , yeah . The high school 's a great idea .Grad C: So . But I {disfmarker} I will just make a firstdraft of the , uh , note , the " write - up " note , send it to you and Fey and then {disfmarker}Professor B: And why don't you also copy Jane on it ?Grad C: And , um , Are we {disfmarker} Have we concurred that , uh ,these {disfmarker} these forms are sufficient for us , and necessary ?Professor B: Uh , th I think they 're necessary . This {disfmarker} The permission form .Grad C: Mmm .Professor B: Uh , there has to be one ,GradC: Nuh . N .Professor B: and I think we 're just gonna use it as it is , and {pause} UmGrad C: N . You happy with that ?Professor B: Well , yeah . There 's one tricky part about , um , they have the right um I The lastparagraph {comment} " if you agree to participate you have the opportunity to have anything excised which you would prefer not to have included in the data set . " OK ? Now that , we had to be included for this otherone which might have , uh , meetings , you know , about something .Grad C: Mm - hmm .Professor B: In this case , it doesn't really make sense . Um , so what I 'd like to do is also have our subjects sign a waiversaying " I don't want to see the final transcript " .Grad C: Mm - hmm .Professor B: And if they don't {disfmarker} If they say " no , I 'm not willing to sign that " , then we 'll show them the final transcript . But , um.Grad C: Yep . Makes sense .Professor B: That , uh {disfmarker} yeah , so we might actually , um S i Jane may say that , " you know , you can't do this " , uh , " on the same form , we need a separate form . " Butanyway . I 'd {disfmarker} I 'd {disfmarker} I 'd like to , e e um , add an a little thi eh {disfmarker} a thing for them to initial , saying " nah , do I don't want to see the final transcript . "Grad C: Mm - hmm .ProfessorB: But other than that , that 's one 's been approved , this really is the same project , uh , rec you know . And so forth . So I think we just go with it .Grad C: Yeah . Yeah . OK . So much for the data , except that withMunich everything is fine now . They 're gonna {vocalsound} transcribe . They 're also gonna translate the , uh , German data from the TV and cinema stuff for Andreas . So . They 're {disfmarker} they all seem to behappy now , {vocalsound} with that . So . w c sh should we move on to the technical sides ?Professor B: Yep .Grad C: Well I guess the good {disfmarker} good news of last week was the parser . So , um Bhaskara andI started working on the {disfmarker} {vocalsound} the parser . Then Bhaskara went to class and once he came back , um , {vocalsound} it was finished . So . It , uh {disfmarker} I didn't measure it , but it was aboutan hour and ten minutes .Grad D: Yep .Grad C: And , um {disfmarker} and now it 's {disfmarker} We have a complete English parser that does everything the German parser does .Grad D: Something like that.Professor B: Which is {vocalsound} not a lot . But {disfmarker}Grad D: That 's the , uh , point .Grad C: The {disfmarker} uh , that 's not a lot .Professor B: OK .Grad D: Yes .Professor B: Right .Grad C: And um .GradE: What did you end up having to do ? I mean , wha Was there anything {pause} interesting about it at all ?Grad C: Well , if you , eh {disfmarker}Grad D: We 'll show you .Professor B: Yeah , we can show us ,Grad E:or are we gonna see that ?Professor B: right ?Grad C: Well , w w We d The first we did is we {disfmarker} we tried to {disfmarker} to do {disfmarker} change the {disfmarker} the " laufen " into " run " , {vocalsound}or " running " , {vocalsound} or " runs " .Professor B: Yep .Grad C: And we noticed that whatever we tried to do , it no effect .Grad E: Mm - hmm .Grad C: And we were puzzled .Grad E: OK .Grad C: And , uh , thereason was that the parser i c completely ignores the verb .Grad E: Mm - hmm .Grad C: So this sentence {disfmarker} sentence is {disfmarker} parses the p the same output ,Grad E: Hmm . Interesting parserproperty .Grad C: um , even if you leave out , um , all {disfmarker} all of this .Grad E: I see . Yeah .Grad C: So it 's basically feature film and TV .Grad E: TodayGrad C: That 's what you need .Grad E: OK .Grad C: If{disfmarker} if you 'd add {disfmarker} add Today and Evening , it 'll add Time or not .Grad E: And the {disfmarker} t and the time , right ?Grad C: So it {disfmarker} i it does look at that .Grad E: OK .Grad C: But allthe rest is p simply frosting on the cake , and it 's optional for that parser .Grad E: True .Professor B: So , you can sho You {disfmarker} you {disfmarker} Are {disfmarker} are you gonna show us the little templates?Grad C: And {disfmarker}Grad E: SGrad C: Yeah . We ar we can sh er {disfmarker} I can show you the templates . I {disfmarker} I also have it running here ,Grad E: The former end g " Oh , I see . Uh - huh .Grad C:so if I {vocalsound} do this now , um , {vocalsound} you can see that it parsed the wonderful English sentence , " Which films are on the cinema today {pause} evening ? " But , um .Professor B: Well , that sounds{disfmarker}Grad C: Uh do don't worry about it .Professor B: No iGrad C: It could be " this evening , which {disfmarker} which films are on the cinema " , or " running in the cinema , which {disfmarker} " uh , " todayevening " , uh i " Is anything happening in the cinema this evening ? "Grad E: OK . OK . Key words , e basically .Professor B: WellGrad C: Ge - elaborate , or , more or less , {vocalsound} uh {disfmarker}Professor B:Actually , it 's a little tricky , in that there 's some allowable German orders which aren't allowable English orders and so forth . And it is order - based . So it {disfmarker} it {disfmarker} Isn't it ?Grad C: No .Grad D: No.Professor B: Oh . So it {disfmarker} it doe I it {disfmarker} These {disfmarker} u these optional elements ,Grad C: It is not {disfmarker}Professor B: it 's {disfmarker} it 's actually a set , not a sequence ?Grad C:Yeah . We were {disfmarker} I was afraid that , um {disfmarker}Professor B: Oh !Grad E: So it really is key word matching , basically .Professor B: Really a seGrad C: Um .PhD F: e yeah . Mm - hmm .Professor B: Oh ,wow .Grad C: Um , I mean , these sentences are just silly .Grad E: Hmm .Grad C: I mean , uh , d these were not the ones we {disfmarker} we actually did it . Um . What 's an idiomatic of phrasing this ? Which films are{pause} showing ?Grad D: Are pl playing at the cinema ?Grad C: playing ?Grad D: Yeah .Grad E: Tonight ?Grad D: I changed that file , actually , where it 's on my account .Grad E: This {disfmarker} this evening ?PhDF: Actually , you would say , " which films are on tonight ? "Grad D: You want to get it ? Or {disfmarker} is {disfmarker} di was it easy to get it ?Grad C: Um . I have no net here .Grad D: Oh , OK .Professor B: Do I?Grad C: OK . So . Wonderful parse , same thing . Um .Professor B: Right .Grad C: Except that we d w we don't have this , uh , time information here now , which is , um {disfmarker} Oh . This {disfmarker} are thereserve . Anyways . {vocalsound} So . Um . These are the {disfmarker} sort of the ten different sentence types that the uh {disfmarker} {vocalsound} the parser was able to do . And it still is , now in English.Professor B: Yeah .Grad E: Mm - hmm .Grad C: And , um {disfmarker} Sorry . And , um you have already to make it a little bit more elaborate , right ?Grad D: Yeah , I mean I changed those sentences to make it , uh ,more , uh , idiomatic . And , of course , you can have i many variations in those sentences , they will still parse fine . So , in a sense it 's pretty broad .Professor B: OK .Grad C: OK . So , if you want to look at thetemplates , {vocalsound} {vocalsound} they 're conveniently located in a file , " template " . Um , and this is what I had to do . I had to change , @ @ {comment} " Spielfilm " to " film " , uh , " Film " to " movie " ,cinem " Kino " to " cinema " {disfmarker} to " today " {disfmarker} heu " heute " to " today " ,Grad E: Huh .Grad C: evening {disfmarker} " Abend " to " evening "Professor B: Capitalized as wellGrad A: Hmm .Grad C:And , um .Professor B: Y iGrad D: One thing I was wondering , was , those functions there , are those things that modify the M - three - L basically ?Grad C: Yep .Grad D: OK .Grad C: And that 's {disfmarker} that 's thenext step ,Professor B: pGrad C: but we 'll get to that in a second .Professor B: Oh .Grad C: And so this means , um , " this " and " see " are not optional . " Want I like " is all maybe in there , but may also not be inthere .Professor B: So {disfmarker} so , the point is , if it says " this " and " see " , it also will work in " see " and " this " ?Grad E: SProfessor B: In the other order ?Grad C: Yeah .Professor B: with those two key words?Grad C: Should we try it ?Professor B: " This is the one I want to see " or whatever .Grad C: OK . " Action watch " ,Grad D: Hmm .Grad C: whatever . Nothing was specialfi specified . except that it has some referencesto audio - visual media here .Grad D: AV medium .Grad C: Where it gets that from {disfmarker}Grad D: Yeah .Grad C: It 's correct , but I don't know where it gets it from .Grad D: " See " .Grad C: Oh , " see " . Yeah .Yeah . Yep . OK .Grad D: I mean it 's sort of {disfmarker}Grad C: And " see this " {comment} is exactly the same thing .Professor B: OK , so it is set - based . Alright .Grad D: One thing I was wondering was ,{vocalsound} those percentage signs , right ? So , I mean , why do we even have them ?Grad C: Yep .Grad D: Because {disfmarker} if you didn't have them {disfmarker}Grad C: Uh , I 'll tell you why . Because it givesa {disfmarker} you a score .Grad E: Mm - hmm .Grad C: And the value of the score is , v I assume , I guess , the more of these optional things that are actually in there , the higher the r score {vocalsound} it is .GradD: Oh . OK . So that 's the main purpose . Alright .Grad E: It 's a match .PhD F: Right .Grad E: Mm - hmm .Professor B: OK .Grad C: So we {disfmarker} we shouldn't belittle it too much . It 's doing something , somethings , and it 's very flexible . I 've just tried toGrad E: Mm - hmm .Grad C: be nice .PhD F: Right .Professor B: No , no . Fine .Grad E: Right {disfmarker} Yeah .Professor B: Yeah , yeah , yeah , flexible it is .PhD F: But{disfmarker}Grad C: OK . {vocalsound} Um , let 's hope that the generation will not be more difficult , even though the generator is a little bit more complex . Uh but we 'll {disfmarker} Mmm , that means we mayneed two hours and twenty minutes rather than an hour ten minutes ,Professor B: Alright .Grad C: I hope .Grad D: Right .Grad C: And the next thing I would like to be able to do , and it seems like this would not be toodifficult either , is {vocalsound} to say , " OK let 's now pretend we actually wanted to not only change the {disfmarker} {vocalsound} the mapping of {disfmarker} of , uh , words to the M - three - L but we alsowanted to change {disfmarker} add a new sentence type and and make up some {disfmarker} some new M - three - L {disfmarker} s "Professor B: Yep . So That 'd be great . It would be a good exercise to just see{vocalsound} whether one can get that to run .Grad C: See th Mm - hmm . {vocalsound} Yep . And , um ,Grad D: So , that 's {disfmarker}Grad C: that 's {disfmarker} shouldn't be too tough .Grad D: Fine , yeah .Yeah , so where are those {disfmarker} those functions " Action " , " Goodbye " , and so on , right ? Are they actually , um , {vocalsound} Are they going to be called ? Um , are they present in the code for the parser?Grad C: Yeah . I think what it does , it i i it does something sort of fancy . It loads um {disfmarker} It has these style sheets and also the , um , schemata . So what it probably does , is it takes the , uh , {vocalsound}um {disfmarker} Is this where it is ? This is already the XML stuff ? This is where it takes its own , um , syntax , and converts it somehow . Um . Where is the uh {disfmarker}Grad D: What are you looking for ?Grad C:Um , where it actually produces the {disfmarker} the XML out of the , uh , parsed {pause} stuff .Grad D: Oh , OK .Grad C: No , this is not it . Uh . I can't find it now . You mean , where the {disfmarker} where the acthow the action " Goodbye " maps into something {disfmarker}Grad D: Yeah .Grad A: Yeah , where are those constructors defined ?Grad D: Oh .Grad C: Nope .Grad D: No , that 's not it .Grad C: Yeah . This is sort ofwhat happens . This is what you would need to {disfmarker} to change {disfmarker} to get the , uh , XML changed . So when it encounts encounters " Day " , {vocalsound} it will , uh , activate those h classes in the{disfmarker} in the XML stuff But , um {disfmarker} I saw those actions {disfmarker} uh , the " Goodbye " stuff somewhere . Hmm , hmm , hmm , hmm , hmm .Grad A: Grep for it ?Grad C: Yeah . Let 's do that . Oh.Grad D: Mmm . M - three - L dot DTD ?Grad C: Yep .Grad D: That 's just a {pause} specification for the XML format .Grad C: Yep . Well , we 'll find that out . So whatever {disfmarker} n this does {disfmarker} I meanthis is , basically , looks l to me like a function call , right ?Professor B: Hmm ? Oh , yeah .Grad C: And , um {disfmarker} So , whenever it {disfmarker} it encounters " Goodbye " , which we can make it do in a second ,hereGrad A: That function automatically generates an initialized XML structure ?Grad C: IGrad D: I think each of those functions act on the current XML structure , and change it in some way , for example , by adding a{disfmarker} a l a field to it , or something .Professor B: y Yeah . They also seem to affect state ,Grad C: Mm - hmm .Professor B: cause some of them {disfmarker} there were other actions uh , that {disfmarker} thats seemed to step {disfmarker} state variables somewhere ,Grad D: Right .Professor B: like the n s " Discourse Status Confirm " . OK . So that 's going to be a call on the discourseGrad C: Yep .Professor B: and{vocalsound} confirm that it 's {disfmarker}Grad C: W we Mm - hmmGrad D: Oh , you mean that 's not going to actually modify the tree ,Professor B: I think that 's right .Grad C: eGrad D: but it 's going to change theevent .Professor B: I think it 's actually {disfmarker} That looks like it 's state modification .Grad D: Oh . Oh .Grad C: e mmm Um , well i There is a feature called " Discourse - Status " ,Grad D: When there 's a feature.Professor B: Yeah .Grad C: And so whenever I just say , " Write " , it will {disfmarker} it will put this in here .Professor B: Oh , so it always just {disfmarker} Is it {disfmarker} So it {disfmarker} Well , go back , then ,cuz it may be that all those th things , while they look like function calls , are just a way of adding exactly that to the XML .Grad C: h Yep .Professor B: Uh - huh ! I 'm not {disfmarker} I 'm not sure .Grad C: So , this{disfmarker}Professor B: e I 'm not sure {disfmarker} e that {disfmarker}Grad C: Um {disfmarker} well , we {disfmarker} we 'll see , when we say , let 's test something , " Goodbye " , causes it to c to createbasically an " Action Goodbye - End - Action " .Professor B: Right .Grad C: Which is a means of telling the system to shut down .Professor B: Right .Grad C: Now , if we know that " Write " produces a " Feature Discourse- Status Confirm Discourse - Status " . So if I now say " Write , Goodbye , " it should do that . It sho it creates this ,Grad D: Mm - hmm .Professor B: Right .Grad C: " Confirm Goodbye " .Professor B: Yep .Grad D: Rightthere . But there is some kind of function call , because how does it know to put Goodbye in Content , but , uh , Confirm in Features ?Grad C: Oh . It d it {disfmarker} n That 's because {disfmarker}Grad D: So So , it 'snot just that it 's adding that field .Professor B: Right .Grad D: It 'sProfessor B: Absolutely . Good point .Grad D: OK .Professor B: It 's {disfmarker} it 's {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} It 's under what sub - type you 'redoing it . Yeah .Grad C: Mm - hmm . Yeah .Grad A: It 's mystery functions .Grad C: Well , sometimes it m Sometimes , iGrad D: Well , they 're defined somewhere , presumably .Professor B: Yeah , each is {disfmarker}S so that 's funny .Grad C: When it {disfmarker}Professor B: You bury the s the state in the function Alright .Grad C: it {disfmarker}Grad A: Well , it just automatically initializes things that are common , right?Professor B: UhGrad A: So it 's just a shorthand .Professor B: Yeah .Grad C: For example {disfmarker} Oh , this is German . Sorry . e So , now , this , it cannot do anymore . Nothing comes out of here .Grad A: A " nota number " is a value . Awesome .Grad C: So , it doesn't speak German anymore , but it does speak English . And there is , here , a reference {disfmarker} So , this tells us that whatever is {disfmarker} has the ID "zero " is referenced here {disfmarker} by @ @ {comment} the restriction seed and this is exa " I want {disfmarker} " What was the sentence ?Professor B: " I want two seats here . "Grad C: " need two seats here . "Nuh . " And where is it playing ? " There should also be a reference to something , maybe . Our d This is re um Mmm . Here , we change {disfmarker} and so , we {disfmarker} Here we add something to the Discourse -Status , that the user wants to change something that was sort of done before And , uh {disfmarker} and that , whatever is being changed has something to do with the cinema .Grad A: So then , whatever takes this M- three - L is what actually changes the state , not the {disfmarker} Yeah , OK .Professor B: No , right , the Discourse Maintainer ,Grad A: Yeah .Professor B: yeah . I see . And it {disfmarker} and it runs around lookingfor Discourse Status tags , and doing whatever it does with them . And other people ignore those tags . Alright . So , yeah . I definitely think it 's {disfmarker} {vocalsound} It 's worth the exercise of trying to actuallyadd something that isn't there .Grad C: Hmm ?Professor B: Uh DiscGrad C: Sort of get a complete understanding of the whole thing .Professor B: Yeah , a kid understanding what 's going on . Then the next thing wetalked about is actually , {vocalsound} um , figuring out how to add our own tags , and stuff like that .Grad C: OK . Point number two . I got the , uh , M - three - L for the routes today . Uh , so I got some more . This is