Project Manager: Hi Kate . {vocalsound} Okay , carry on .Industrial Designer: Just just carry on .{vocalsound}Project Manager: {vocalsound} Alright um this is the beginning of the third meeting , theconceptual design meeting . Um our agenda should be um that we're opening the meeting , I have{disfmarker} the minutes from the previous meeting are on the shared f drive at this point . Um and weshould each have a presentation to make . Um we have certain decisions to make and we have fortyminutes total . It's twenty five after two at the moment , so forty minutes is five after three ,{vocalsound} um which I'll be keeping an eye on the clock for us . Okay . {vocalsound} Um there are thedecisions we have to turn to , but we'll come back to them in a minute after I take us to the minutes ofthe previous meeting . Right um as we remember , I opened the meeting , the four of us were present ,the meeting {disfmarker} the first meeting's minutes were reviewed and approved . Um Sarah , youpresented a marketing research report um which pretty much rep represented that fifteen to thirty fiveyear olds uh it has to be hand-held , power , channel , volume , number keys , possibly a speechrecognition . And then Steph did a second presentation um that those functions plus streamlining themwith big user-friendly keys that were easy to use . I think all of us agreed with those things . Katepresented a working design of {disfmarker} going after {disfmarker} going over the basics on thewhiteboard um that it should be a simple mass-produced device , because of the twelve and a half Pencecost . Um but we did talk about possibly using rechargeable batteries and having a docking place as aselling point . Um and the new requirements that it for {disfmarker} be for T_V_ only um and that itinclude the l so slogan and colour of the uh corporate design be included . Um {vocalsound} thecorporate image . So we agreed that the target market would be fifteen to thirty five with more moneythan sense , that were decision makers . Alternatively it would be a manufacturer to enclose it with theT_V_ , but it still should meet those parameters . Um and that the function we agreed was volume ,power , numbers , enter , channels , a way to move between channels , easy to use and hand-held .{vocalsound} Um at that point we agreed that Sarah would look at the current cost of competition , whatwhat do the current ones sell for . Um and Steph was gonna look at ec ergonomics . Kate was gonna lookat cost and feasibility of the various possibilities that we discussed . And I was to type up these minutesand work on the final report . Is this a fair presentation of what our last meeting was ?User Interface:Yeah .Industrial Designer: Mm-hmm .User Interface: Yes .Project Manager: Okay . Right . So we're readyto close that and go back to our {disfmarker} That one . Right . We're up to the point of the {disfmarker}Go back . Um {vocalsound} the three presentations . So we're going to pull the plug on me and turn toSarah . Is that okay ? Is that alright with everybody else ?Industrial Designer: Mm-hmm .{vocalsound}User Interface: Yep .Project Manager: Especially since Kate asked to be last . {vocalsound}Sarah , I'm sorry if I misspelled your name , I didn't know whether it was S_A_R_A_ or {vocalsound}S_A_R_H_ .Marketing: {vocalsound} {vocalsound} I respond to either .Project Manager: You respond towhatever you get , huh ? {vocalsound}Marketing: No worries .Project Manager: Okay . Um , did you doyour {disfmarker} Hit {disfmarker}User Interface: Yeah , {gap}Project Manager: Ah , there it is . Ta-da.Marketing: Okay , first thing I want to address is um one of the points that Florence brought up , whichwas uh current cost of the competition devices , similar to the ones that Stephanie uh showed us and andthey're uh twenty to sixty Euros , depending on uh branding .User Interface: Right .Marketing: Some ofthem that have a higher brand recognition are on the more expensive end . But I think that with thecurrent um price that we're searching for , we're well within , even on the lower end , of the uh of themarket .Project Manager: Mm 'kay .Marketing: But I'm going to move on to more interesting um{vocalsound} more vibrant things . {vocalsound} So , I investigated the remote control market ingreater detail , and my uh {disfmarker} the theme of what I was to work on was uh trend watch .UserInterface: {vocalsound}Marketing: And {vocalsound}Project Manager: 'Kay .User Interface:{vocalsound}Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Sorry . {vocalsound}User Interface:{vocalsound}Marketing: {vocalsound}Project Manager: {vocalsound}User Interface:{vocalsound}Industrial Designer: I'm glad to see the marketing budget is being so well spent on


Project Manager: That should hopefully do the trick , um . 'Kay . Sorry about the small delay . Falling alittle bit behind schedule . And that's uh fifteen twenty five . Okay . So just to try and roughly go overwhat we agreed in the last one , um we're gonna go for something uh uh how was it ? Uh The new black ,I believe .Marketing: {gap} .Project Manager: Um something that looks good 'cause that seems to be inpreference to actual functionality in the end , though we should never avoid functionality , of course . Uhmany of our components are gonna be standard , off the shelf , but it seemed like we were gonna requireat least an advanced chip and we were still very much for the idea of using an L_C_D_ display . Um otherthings were we were hoping to use rubber , most likely gonna be double curved , etcetera . Okay . So umdue to your hard work , we might as well let the uh two designers go first , and uh show us the prototype.User Interface: Okay , it's a {disfmarker}Project Manager: Quite how the best way to do this is , I'm notsure ,Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}User Interface: {gap} I think if we both step upProject Manager:but {disfmarker}User Interface: and uh outline our ideas . Okay . Now do {disfmarker} uh doing theprototype gave us a bit more insight into the ergonomics of the design . Um for one thing , it turned outthat the only point at which it needs to be articulated for handedness is um is h i is down here for the uhL_E_D_ . As it turned out , the whole thing transfers from the right to left hand fairly well from the pointof view of operating the uh function buttons and joystick , though it might be an idea to be able to aadjust the positions for the base of the joystick just a little bit for uh {disfmarker}Project Manager: Okay.User Interface: {gap} ju just a thought . You could simply have a slightly ovoid shaped joystick thatcould then just be turn uh twisted round , so that the uh sticky uh so that the bit that sticks out a bitmore is on one side or the other . But as you as you see with the uh {vocalsound} with holding it in theleft hand , the L_ uh the L_C_D_ is nowhere useful , so that would need to be articulated uh if we'regoing to retain {gap} ergonomic design . Um now I I got your note about uh keeping the cost down.Project Manager: I'm afraid yeah .User Interface: Yeah .Project Manager: We'll go into that a bit more,User Interface: {gap} this design could be done with um with uh plastic casing .Project Manager: butplease go on .User Interface: Though I would recommend around the grip part here in the middle ,having maybe just a rubber grip over that which would allow for a slightly more sort of bio-morphic form ,and a bit more ergonomic as well . As for the um as for the single curve , um well this edge and this edge, like I say it would be nice to have some curvature to it , but it's not absolutely necessary . Really thecurve that's most needed is the underside so that the jo so that the joystick rests over the the edge ofthe hand like this . Um and you have the uh transmitter here and a wee speaker for the uh for the uh forthe uh fi uh for the remote control finder . So .Project Manager: {vocalsound}User Interface: Any furthercomments ?Industrial Designer: Um obviously it's gonna be bulkier than how it looks , because it's gonnabe flat on one side , so the L_C_D_ will be s sticking down like this , won't it ?User Interface: Mm-hmm .Yeah .Industrial Designer: 'Cause it {disfmarker} you can't get it curved .User Interface: Yeah , I meantheIndustrial Designer: Uh because of costs .User Interface: uh {disfmarker} Yeah .Industrial Designer:And it's plastic as well , so it won't be as comfortable on the hand .User Interface: Yeah . I mean with thewith the rubber design it could i you know it could pretty much mould very much to the to the user's hand.Project Manager: Mm .User Interface: One nice wee feature if we could if we could still do the rubber , Ithough of was to have {gap} the uh rubber extend beyond the end of the uh {vocalsound} of the rigidsubstructure . So it has a wee sort of tail that you just drape over your wrist so it stays in position nicely.Project Manager: {vocalsound}User Interface: Mm . Lovely . Um .Industrial Designer: Yeah , {gap} .{vocalsound}Project Manager: Okay , yeah . Great . Um .Marketing: Right . Yeah I've got a {disfmarker}if you load up my evaluation document .Project Manager: Yeah , okay {gap} .User Interface: Okay.Project Manager: Excellent work .Marketing: Mm .Project Manager: Um .Marketing: Uh evaluation .{vocalsound} Basic point uh have a list of criteria that we need to rate the prototype by . {vocalsound}Um then we will {disfmarker} it's a seven s um seven seven step kinda evaluation process . So um notseven steps , seven scale . So after we've finished doing all the ratings for each criteria , we average thatand that will give us some type of uh confidence in our prototype . And uh the criteria {gap} based on


The Chair (Hon. Anthony Rota (NipissingTimiskaming, Lib.)): I call this meeting to order. Welcome to the14thmeeting of the House of Commons Special Committee on the COVID-19 Pandemic.  This will be ahybrid meeting. Some members will be participating via video conference and some will be participatingin person. In order to ensure that those joining the meeting via video conference can be seen and heardby those in the chamber, two screens have been set up on either side of the Speaker's chair, andmembers in the chamber can listen to the floor audio or to interpretation using their earpiece at theirdesk. Before speaking, please wait until I recognize you by name, and please direct your remarks throughthe chair. For those joining via video conference, I would like to remind you to leave your mike on mutewhen you are not speaking. Also, please note that if you want to speak in English, you should be on theEnglish channel. If you want to speak French, you should be on the French channel. Should you wish toalternate between the two languages, you should change the channel to the language that you arespeaking each time you switch languages. Should members participating by video conference need torequest the floor outside their designated speaking times, they should activate their mic and state thatthey have a point of order. Those in the Chamber can rise in the usual way. Please note that today'sproceedings will be televised in the same way as a typical sitting of the House. We'll now proceed toministerial announcements. I understand that there are none. Now we'll proceed to the tabling ofdocuments. Mr.LeBlanc has a document he wants to table. Go ahead, Mr.LeBlanc.Hon. Dominic LeBlanc:Mr. Chair, I have the honour to table, in both official languages, a report entitled "Democracy Matters,Debates Count: A report on the 2019 Leaders' Debates Commission and the future of debates in Canada.Mr. Chair, on behalf of all of us, I want to thank the Right Honourable David Johnston for his continuedservice.The Chair: Good. We'll now proceed to the presenting of petitions, for a period not exceeding 15minutes. I would like to remind members that any petition presented during a meeting of the specialcommittee must have already been certified by the clerk of petitions. For members participating inperson, we ask that you please come to the front and drop off your certificate at the table once thepetition has been presented. In presenting petitions, the first presenter today is Mr. Genuis.Mr. GarnettGenuis (Sherwood ParkFort Saskatchewan, CPC): Thank you, Mr. Chair. I'm pleased to be presenting apetition in support of Bill S-204. This is a bill in the Senate, put forward by Senator Salma Ataullahjan. Itwould make it a criminal offence for a person to go abroad and receive an organ for which there has notbeen consent by the donor. It also creates a mechanism by which someone could be deemed inadmissibleto Canada if they were involved in organ harvesting and trafficking. This bill is designed to confront andaddress the horrific practice by which, in certain casesfor instance, inside Chinaminority communities ordissidents may be targeted and have their organs removed as they're killed and used for transplantation.Petitioners are supportive of Bill S-204, and they want to see it passed as soon as possible.The Chair: Ournext petition will go to Mr. Viersen.Mr. Arnold Viersen (Peace RiverWestlock, CPC): Mr. Chair, I ampresenting a petition today signed by Canadians who are concerned that Bill C-7 removes safeguardsfrom the current euthanasia regime, including the mandatory 10-day waiting period. Mr. Chair, thesepeople who are signing this petition would like to see an improvement in assisted living, not assisteddying.The Chair: We'll now go to Ms. Zahid.Mrs. Salma Zahid (Scarborough Centre, Lib.): Thank you, Mr.Chair. I would like to present an e-petition signed by over 40 people. It asks that the Government ofCanada recognize the Republic of Somaliland as an autonomous state that may result in foreigninvestments, direct access of development aid, foreign aid for disaster relief and infrastructuredevelopment investment loans.The Chair: Now we'll proceed to Statements by Members for a period notexceeding 15 minutes. Each statement will be for a maximum of one minute. I remind members that ifthey exceed that time limit, they will be interrupted.  Our first statement goes to Monsieur El-Khoury.Mr.Fayal El-Khoury (LavalLes les, Lib.): Mr.Chair, I thank the government for the way it has managed thisglobal crisis and its impact on Canadians. It has acted in a robust, rapid and very effective way. OurPrime Minister has been awarded the medal of honour, courage and humanity worldwide. Canada is oneof the few countries that has acted in the best interests of its citizens and maintained their dignity in


Sian Thomas: Bore da. Unfortunately, the Chair, Lynne Neagle, is unable to attend today's meeting.Therefore, in accordance with Standing Order 17.22, I call for nominations for a temporary Chair, for theduration of the meeting.Julie Morgan AM: I nominate John Griffiths.Sian Thomas: Any furthernominations? I therefore declare that John Griffiths has been appointed temporary Chair, and I invite himto chair for the duration of today's meeting.John Griffiths AM: Thank you very much. I thank theMembers for that. Welcome, everyone, to this meeting of the Children, Young People and EducationCommittee. The first item on our agenda today is apologies, substitutions, declarations of interest.Obviously, Lynne Neagle isn't able to be with us today. We haven't received any other apologies. Arethere any declarations of interest? No. We will move on then to item 2 on our agenda, the continuation ofour inquiry into targeted funding to improve educational outcomes, and evidence session 8. And I'm verypleased to welcome Estyn here this morning to give evidence to the committee. Would you like tointroduce yourselves for the record, please?Meilyr Rowlands: Meilyr Rowlands, chief inspector.ClaireMorgan: Claire Morgan, strategic director.Simon Brown: Simon Brown, strategic director.John GriffithsAM: Okay. Thank you. And welcome again. If it's okay, we'll move straight into questions—we have quitea number of questions to get through this morning. Firstly, Llyr.Llyr Gruffydd AM: Thank you, Chair, andgood morning. I just want to start by asking about your perception of how schools are using the pupildevelopment grant funding, and to what extent they are genuinely targeting that funding exclusivelytowards children eligible for free school meals.Meilyr Rowlands: Thank you for the question. This granthas been targeted far better by now than it was originally. Estyn has made several reports regarding theeffectiveness of the grant, and, really, going back to before this specific grant, to a similar grant, calledRAISE. At the start of this grant, the funding was often spent on tackling underachievement, rather thandealing with the underachievement of children who are eligible for free school meals specifically. But,over a period of time, we have seen that it is targeted much better by now. That's not to say that thetargeting is working perfectly still, and I think that we are seeing examples where the targeting isn'tgoing just to children who receive free school meals. Schools sometimes interpret poverty in a slightlywider way than that. In terms of what schools are doing with the grant, we have given evidence to you ofthe kinds of things that they are doing. They are tracking progress of pupils, they are trying to improveattendance, they are trying to work with families and the community in general, they're doing workspecifically to improve how children are doing in exams, in key stage 4, specifically—a lot of funding isbeing spent on that—improving the confidence of students, taking students on extra-curricular activities,improving literacy and numeracy. Those are the kinds of activities they're being used for.Llyr GruffyddAM: Because the research by Ipsos MORI and the Wales Institute of Social and Economic Research, Dataand Methods has shown that there is some kind of blurring—I think that's the term that they use—interms of who is eligible. But you are relatively comfortable with the fact that there is sufficient targetinghappening. You referred to the fact that it is used, perhaps, to reach a slightly wider cohort than justthose who are eligible for free school meals, but you do feel that that balance, from your experience, isacceptable.Meilyr Rowlands: Yes, certainly, it has improved a great deal. When I was looking at thisinitially, the targeting wasn’t happening at all. It was being spent on children who were underachieving,and one of the things that we did notice in the first report was that much more funding was being spenton boys than girls. And, of course, that raised the question immediately that it wasn't being spent thenon children who are eligible for free school meals, because those numbers are equal. So, it wasn’t, but ithas improved. There is a discussion about who exactly should have it and whether free school meals isthe best definition. So, I think that schools are perhaps not following that exactly, but within the spirit ofthe grant, I think I’m fairly comfortable. There is a specific question—I don’t know if you are going to askthis—regarding more able and talented pupils.Llyr Gruffydd AM: That's where I was going next.MeilyrRowlands: So, if there is a cohort of pupils who are missing out on this, they are the more able andtalented pupils who receive free school meals. There are a number of reasons for this, I think. One ofthem is that there’s still some feeling that less able children should be receiving this grant, children who


Grad A: OK . We seem to be recording .Professor G: Alright !Grad A: So , sorry about not{disfmarker}Professor G: We 're not crashing .PhD D: Number four .Grad A: not pre - doing everything .The lunch went a little later than I was expecting , Chuck .PhD E: Hmm ?Professor G: OK .PhD B: Chuckwas telling too many jokes , or something ?Grad A: Yep . Pretty much .PhD E: Yeah .Professor G: OK .{vocalsound} Does anybody have an agenda ?Grad A: No .Postdoc F: Well , I 'm {disfmarker} I sent acouple of items . They 're {disfmarker} they 're sort of practical .Professor G: I thought {pause}somebody had .Postdoc F: I don't know if you 're {disfmarker}Professor G: Yeah , that 's right .PostdocF: if {disfmarker} if that 's too practical for what we 're {pause} focused on .Grad A: I mean , we don'twant anything too practical .Professor G: Yeah , we only want th useless things .Grad A: Yeah , thatwould be {disfmarker}Professor G: Yeah . No , why don't we talk about practical things ?Postdoc F: OK.Professor G: Sure .Postdoc F: Well , um , I can {pause} give you an update on the {pause} transcriptioneffort .Professor G: Great .Postdoc F: Uh , maybe {nonvocalsound} raise the issue of microphone , uh ,um procedures with reference to the {pause} cleanliness of the recordings .Professor G: OK ,transcription , uh , microphone issues {disfmarker}Postdoc F: And then maybe {nonvocalsound} ask , thuh , these guys . The {disfmarker} we have great {disfmarker} great , uh , p steps forward in terms ofthe nonspeech - speech pre - segmenting of the signal .Professor G: OK .Grad A: Well , we have stepsforward .PhD C: Yeah .Postdoc F: Well , it 's a {disfmarker} it 's a big improvement .PhD C: I wouldprefer this .Professor G: Yes . Yeah , well . OK . Uh {disfmarker}PhD D: We talk about the {disfmarker}{vocalsound} the results ofProfessor G: You have some {disfmarker} Yeah .Grad A: I have a little bit ofIRAM stuffProfessor G: OK .PhD D: use {disfmarker}Grad A: but {pause} I 'm not sure if that 's ofgeneral interest or not .Professor G: Uh , bigram ?Grad A: IRAM .PhD D: IRAM .Professor G: IRAM .GradA: IRAM , bigram ,Professor G: Well , m maybe .PhD D: Bi - Bigram .Grad A: you know .Professor G:Yeah , let 's {disfmarker} let 's see where we are at three - thirty .PhD B: Hmm .Professor G: Um{disfmarker}PhD B: Since , uh {disfmarker} since I have to leave as usual at three - thirty , can we dothe interesting stuff first ?Postdoc F: I beg your pardon ?Professor G: Well {disfmarker}PhD C: Which is{disfmarker} ?Grad A: What 's the interesting stuff ?Postdoc F: I beg your pardon ?PhD D: Yeah.Professor G: Yeah . Th - now you get to tell us what 's the interesting part .PhD E: Please specify.Professor G: But {disfmarker}PhD B: Well , uh , I guess the work that 's been {pause} done onsegmentation would be most {disfmarker}PhD C: Yeah .Postdoc F: I think that would be a good thing tostart with .PhD B: Yeah .Professor G: OK . Um , and , um , {vocalsound} the other thing , uh , which I 'lljust say very briefly that maybe relates to that a little bit , which is that , um , uh , one of the suggestionsthat came up in a brief meeting I had the other day when I was in Spain with , uh , Manolo Pardo and{vocalsound} Javier , uh , Ferreiros , who was {pause} here before , was , um , why not start with whatthey had before but add in the non - silence boundaries . So , in what Javier did before when they weredoing , um {disfmarker} h he was looking for , uh , speaker change {pause} points .PhD D: Mm - hmm.Professor G: Um . As a simplification , he originally did this only using {pause} silence as , uh , a{pause} putative , uh , speaker change point .PhD C: Yeah .Professor G: And , uh , he did not , say , lookat points where you were changing broad sp uh , phonetic class , for instance . And for Broadcast News ,that was fine . Here obviously it 's not .PhD D: Yeah .Professor G: And , um , so one of the things thatthey were pushing in d in discussing with me is , um , w why are you spending so much time , uh , on the, uh , feature issue , uh , when perhaps if you sort of deal with what you were using beforePhD D: Uh -huh .Professor G: and then just broadened it a bit , instead of just ta using silence as putative changepoint also {disfmarker} ?PhD D: Nnn , yeah .Professor G: So then you 've got {disfmarker} you alreadyhave the super - structure with Gaussians and H - you know , simple H M Ms and so forth . And you{disfmarker} you might {disfmarker} So there was a {disfmarker} there was a little bit of a{disfmarker} a {disfmarker} a {disfmarker} a difference of opinion because I {disfmarker} I thoughtthat it was {disfmarker} it 's interesting to look at what features are useful .PhD D: Yeah .Professor G:But , uh , on the other hand I saw that the {disfmarker} they had a good point that , uh , if we had


Marketing: {vocalsound} That went well , thank you .Project Manager: That's great .Industrial Designer:{vocalsound} 'Kay .Marketing: Perfect .Project Manager: Alright , let me just PowerPoint this up .{vocalsound} {vocalsound} {vocalsound} Right so um this meeting will be about the conceptual design ,don't ask me s precisely what conceptual design is , it's just something important that we need to do .Um , think of it {disfmarker} 's kind of uh turning the abstract into slightly more concrete . In thismeeting ideally we'll come to some final decisions on what we're gonna do for the prototype . Um . Rightso um , apologies for the last meeting , it was brought to my attention that I did not make the roles clearenough , um , so I will attempt to do so more accurately in this particular meeting . Um , fair enough ,thanks for the input , 's always good . Um . So , basically all we're gonna do is have some presentationsagain much like last time , um , and gonna go through you , uh whoever wants to go first is f fine by meum and we'll collate what we know about um what we discussed in the last meeting , possible directions .{vocalsound} And then we'll make some more decisions on um basic uh firm up our idea on how we wantthis remote control to look and work . So , perfect . So , without th further ado , whoever wants to gofirst is free to .Industrial Designer: I'll go first .Project Manager: Alright Nathan ,Marketing: Go ahead.Project Manager: take it away . It is Nathan right ? I'm not calling you the wrong name over and overagain ?Industrial Designer: No Nathan's fine .Marketing: {vocalsound}Project Manager: {vocalsound}Good .Industrial Designer: It's either Nathan or participant two .Project Manager:{vocalsound}Marketing: {vocalsound}User Interface: {vocalsound} Mister participant two that is .{vocalsound}Industrial Designer: Uh .Project Manager: {vocalsound}Marketing: Nice .IndustrialDesigner: Okay . Um ,Project Manager: Nice .Industrial Designer: basically what I'm gonna have to talkto you about today is um component design and it's been brought to my attention that we may besomewhat limited as to what we can do because of what our manufacturer offers ,Project Manager: Mm.Industrial Designer: so {disfmarker} Basically what I'm gonna be doing is talking to you about that . Um, components of a remote control , okay . We've already kind of gone over this but we're gonna have toget into more detail and probably have to reach some conclusions some time soon . Energy source , um ,our manufacturer offers a variety of energy sources , your standard battery , solar cells . Ourmanufacturer didn't say anything about lithium so we might have to look {disfmarker} if we do go thatroute , we might have to look elsewhere . Um , and also there's a kinetic energy possibility . Basically ,it's like a um {disfmarker} the idea of moving the remote would create enough energy to keep it running. So that's one possibility but I don't know whether that would be powerful enough to illuminate a touchscreen .Project Manager: Hmm .Industrial Designer: So we'll have to look into that .Marketing: Mm.Industrial Designer: Um , the case , we have a few options , plastic , rubber or wood . Um and then asfar as the way it's shaped , we can do standard boring flat , which we probably don't wanna do , curvedor very sexy double curved .Project Manager: What kind of th thickness are we looking at ?IndustrialDesigner: Um , I imagine that we could specify . Um , I don't see any reason to go outside of theconvention of three or four millimetres . Yeah .Project Manager: Okay , brilliant .Industrial Designer: Um, the buttons , there are multiple scroll buttons available from our manufacturer , but to use those we'dhave to use more chips , um and that would cost us more . And if we do go with the rubber doubledcurved case um we'll have to use rubber push buttons because the other buttons aren't compatible withthat .Project Manager: Hmm .Industrial Designer: Um and just a little note there ,Marketing: Right.Industrial Designer: touch screen equals many chips which equals many Euro .Project Manager:{vocalsound}Marketing: {vocalsound} Right . Nice .Industrial Designer: Um , one thing that I noticedwas that most remotes operate on a infrare on the infrared part of the spectrum . So you notice whenyou push a button on a remote you can't see anything coming out of it but in fact there is light comingout of the remote and you know the television can detect that . And if you were to record {disfmarker} ifyou were to make a video recording you could actually see the light . Uh one thing that I thought mightbe interesting was to use part {disfmarker} use visible light coming out of the remote , just kind of as afun gimmick .Project Manager: Hmm .Industrial Designer: So you could actually see something coming


Professor A: OK .Grad B: OK we 're on and we seem to be working .PhD C: Yes .Professor A: OK .Grad B:We didn't crash {disfmarker} we 're not crashing anymorePhD C: One , two , three , four , fGrad B: and itreally bothers me .Professor A: Yeah ?PhD C: No crashing .PhD G: I do . I crashed when I started thismorning .Grad B: You crashed {disfmarker} crashed this morning ? I did not crash this morning .PhD C:Yeah ?Professor A: Oh ! Well maybe it 's just , you know , how many t u u u u how many times you crashin a day .PhD G: Really ? Yeah . Maybe , yeah .Professor A: First time {disfmarker} first time in the day ,you know .PhD G: Or maybe it 's once you 've {pause} done enough meetings {comment} it won't crashon you anymore .PhD E: Yeah .PhD C: No ?Postdoc F: Yeah .PhD G: It 's a matter of experience .PhD E:Yeah .Professor A: Yeah .Postdoc F: Self - learning , yeah .Professor A: That 's {disfmarker} that 's great.PhD G: Yeah .Professor A: Uh .PhD C: Yeah .Professor A: Do we have an agenda ? Liz {disfmarker} Lizand Andreas can't sh can't {disfmarker} uh , can't come .Grad B: I do .Professor A: So , they won't behere .Grad B: I have agenda and it 's all me .PhD G: Did {disfmarker}Grad B: Cuz no one sent meanything else .PhD G: Did they send , uh , the messages to you about the meeting today ?Grad B: I haveno idea but I just got it a few minutes ago .PhD G: Oh .Grad B: Right when you were in my office itarrived .PhD G: Oh . OK , cuz I checked my mail . I didn't have anything .Grad B: So , does anyone haveany a agenda items other than me ? I actually have one more also which is to talk about the digits.Professor A: Uh , right , so {disfmarker} so I {disfmarker} I was just gonna talk briefly about the NSFITR .PhD C: Mm - hmm . Yeah .Grad B: Oh , great .Professor A: Uh , and then , you have{disfmarker}Postdoc F: Can wProfessor A: I mean , I won't say much , but {disfmarker} {comment} uh ,but then , uh , you said {disfmarker} wanna talk about digits ?Grad B: I have a short thing about digitsand then uh I wanna talk a little bit about naming conventions , although it 's unclear whether this is theright place to talk about it . So maybe just talk about it very briefly and take the details to the people who{disfmarker} for whom it 's relevant .Professor A: Right .PhD C: Yeah .Postdoc F: I could always saysomething about transcription . I 've been {disfmarker} {vocalsound} but {disfmarker} but {disfmarker}uh , well {disfmarker}Professor A: Well if we {disfmarker} Yeah , we shouldn't add things in just to addthings in . I 'm actually pretty busy today ,Postdoc F: Yeah .Professor A: so if we can {disfmarker}{comment} {vocalsound} we {disfmarker}Postdoc F: Yeah , yeah , yeah .Professor A: a short meetingwould be fine .Postdoc F: This does sound like we 're doing fine , yeah . That won't do .Grad B: So theonly thing I wanna say about digits is , we are pretty much done with the first test set . There areprobably forms here and there that are marked as having been read that weren't really read . So I won'treally know until I go through all the transcriber forms and extract out pieces that are in error . So I waUh . Two things . The first is what should we do about digits that were misread ? My opinion is , um , weshould just throw them out completely , and have them read again by someone else . You know , thegrouping is completely random ,PhD C: Uh - huh .Grad B: so it {disfmarker} it 's perfectly fine to put a{disfmarker} a group together again of errors and have them re - read , just to finish out the test set.Postdoc F: Oh ! By {disfmarker} throw them out completely ?Grad B: Um , the other thing you could dois change the transcript to match what they really said . So those are {disfmarker} those are the twooptions .PhD C: Yeah .Postdoc F: Mm - hmm .Professor A: But there 's often things where people do falsestarts . I know I 've done it , where I say {disfmarker} say a {disfmarker}Grad B: What the transcribersdid with that is if they did a correction , and they eventually did read the right string , {comment} youextract the right string .PhD G: Oh , you 're talking about where they completely read the wrong stringand didn't correct it ?PhD E: Yeah .Grad B: Yeah . And didn't notice . Which happens in a few places .PhDE: Yeah .PhD G: Ah .PhD C: Yeah .Grad B: So {disfmarker} so {disfmarker}Postdoc F: Well , and s andyou 're talking string - wise , you 're not talking about the entire page ?Grad B: Correct .PhD E: Yeah.Postdoc F: I get it .Grad B: And so the {disfmarker} the two options are change the transcript to matchwhat they really said , but then {disfmarker} but then the transcript isn't the Aurora test set anymore . Idon't think that really matters because the conditions are so different . And that would be a little easier.PhD G: Well how many are {disfmarker} how {disfmarker} how often does that happen ?Grad B: Mmm ,


Project Manager: Okay . Everybody ready ?Marketing: Okay .Industrial Designer: Yeah .Project Manager:Uh I think the first thing we do is introduce ourselvesMarketing: I think so .Project Manager: andeverybody's name and what your function is ?Marketing: Yeah , that's a good plan .Project Manager: Somaybe we start with you ?User Interface: Okay . Yeah , my name is Francina . And I'm uh an userinterface {disfmarker} my role is uh {disfmarker} the main responsibility is user interface .ProjectManager: Mm-hmm .User Interface: And my role is to design uh a television remote control .ProjectManager: Mm-hmm . Okay .Marketing: And I'm a marketing person . I wanna figure out how to sell them.Project Manager: Mm-hmm . And your name is ?Marketing: My name is Eileen .Project Manager: Okay.Industrial Designer: Yeah . Uh I'm Jeanne-Oui . Um uh my role is industrial designer and myresponsibilities are uh uh um deal with the {vocalsound} technical-functional designs and specificationsof user interface and dealing with user interface design .Project Manager: Very good . And as you alreadyknow I am Betty . I am the project manager for today . So why don't we look at the presentation{vocalsound} to see what we really are supposed to do . {vocalsound} Um .Marketing: Okay .ProjectManager: {vocalsound} Yes y opening , acquaintance , tool training {disfmarker} well , the tools are , Ithink , we already {disfmarker} I guess the tool is really our {disfmarker} the computer , as far as I cansee .Marketing: Mm-hmm .Project Manager: Uh we get ins each of us will get instructions and we'll take itfrom there . Project plan , that falls under the same heading pretty much . Um , I don't think we have anygreat discussion at this point .Marketing: No .Project Manager: Um . Here is what this thing should be .This thing we are gonna um uh design is a new remote control . Uh should be original {vocalsound} ,trendy , and , of course , user friendly .Marketing: Mm-hmm . {vocalsound} {vocalsound}ProjectManager: So maybe you wanna make some notes of that .Marketing: Okay .Project Manager: Okay?Marketing: Mm-hmm .Project Manager: All right . {vocalsound} Here is what the functional design issupposed to achieve . Um . That is it's gonna be individual work and then at the meeting we'll discusswhat uh we have come up with . The same goes for the conceptual design , there will be individual workwhic and then discussion afterwards . Detailed design , same thing basically .Marketing: Mm 'kay so{disfmarker} Three different types of design that we're gonna be concerned with okay .Project Manager:Mm-hmm . Mm-hmm .Marketing: Functional , conception and detailed .Project Manager: I can't writewith this thing . {vocalsound}Marketing: {vocalsound} Maybe we should redesign it .{vocalsound}Project Manager: {vocalsound} Yes . {vocalsound}Industrial Designer:{vocalsound}Marketing: After we've finished the remote control we'll get to that .Project Manager:{vocalsound} Yeah , okay . All right ? Then , tool training try out the white board , participant can drawtheir favourite animal . Does anybody want to go and see how the white board works ? So that in case wehave to , in the next meeting , present something on the white board . You wanna go Eileen and{disfmarker}Marketing: Okay , I'll see what I can do .Project Manager: Whether you {disfmarker}without hanging yourself . {vocalsound}Marketing: See if I r See if I remember how to draw a kitty cat ora rabbit or something . {vocalsound}User Interface: {vocalsound}Industrial Designer:{vocalsound}Marketing: {vocalsound}Project Manager: And remember you have to press so it works.Marketing: So that it will record okay .Project Manager: Mm-hmm .Marketing: Um uh um traditional kittycat .Project Manager: {vocalsound} Fat , a fat cat . {vocalsound}User Interface: {vocalsound}Marketing:{vocalsound} I've a very fat cat .Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} {vocalsound}Project Manager:{vocalsound}Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}Marketing: {vocalsound} And it likes to sit like that.Project Manager: Okay .Marketing: Okay .Project Manager: And you're Francine , right ? Would you likes like just to see um how it feels , so that you have a little idea ?User Interface: Yes , I'm Francina . Yes ,sure . {vocalsound}Project Manager: In {disfmarker}Marketing: Am I supposed to wipe off that or{disfmarker}Project Manager: No , no . No , that's okay .User Interface: No , Okay .Marketing: okay.Project Manager: I don't know , we'll get to that later .Marketing: Okay .User Interface: What should Idraw ? {vocalsound}Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} {vocalsound} Snake .User Interface: I'm going todraw a snake . {vocalsound}Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}Project Manager: {vocalsound} Okay


Project Manager: Uh fourth meeting . {vocalsound}User Interface: We have to do what ?ProjectManager: Some extra deciding .Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} W what ? Alri alright . We'll see.Project Manager: {vocalsound} Well {disfmarker}User Interface: Oh .Project Manager: {gap} I'll showyou the notes again . Very interesting .Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}Project Manager: Well you'll youtwo will uh present us your prototype .Industrial Designer: Yeah .Project Manager: Then um{disfmarker} I guess that's your bit ? I I didn't s see anything about it ,Marketing: Yeah .ProjectManager: so {vocalsound} I already uh thought you uh you were {gap} to do that .Industrial Designer:{vocalsound}Project Manager: So the you're uh {gap} .Marketing: {vocalsound}Project Manager: I'llshow you how we're going to do with financing this uh design .User Interface: Mm .Industrial Designer:Yeah , that's important too . Yeah . {vocalsound}Project Manager: And then we'll evaluate , after afterwe have redesigned it .User Interface: {vocalsound} Bit late . {vocalsound}Project Manager: Because uhwell we'll see about the costs . Um we'll uh evaluate our p our uh production and then uh we can close.Industrial Designer: Alright .Project Manager: Well the finance uh we'll do later , so um firstly uh{vocalsound} I'll show you the notes . {vocalsound} I don't think it's very interesting . {vocalsound}UserInterface: I think it is .Project Manager: Oh nei . Uh no . {vocalsound} Alright . This is copy paste . So{disfmarker}Industrial Designer: From me of course , yeah .Project Manager: Of course . You had somevery strange layout .Industrial Designer: Well from us all , yeah , from all of us . Yeah . {vocalsound} It'sa nice chorus , yeah .Project Manager: {vocalsound} Well um {disfmarker}User Interface:{vocalsound}Marketing: {vocalsound}Project Manager: We ge we went through the agenda ,IndustrialDesigner: {vocalsound}Project Manager: and well we had some uh some presentations from you three .And uh I summarised what you said to us . So uh I don't think it's very interesting and go through itagain .Industrial Designer: Repeat it yeah . Alright .Project Manager: So uh {disfmarker} This is what wedecided . It's also copy paste from what we made together . So we still know that .Marketing: Okay.Project Manager: And then uh we can we can uh use the time better . Well uh next you two will uhpresent uh the pot prototype for us .Industrial Designer: Alright , we both uh will ?Project Manager: Yeah.Industrial Designer: Or one of us will ?User Interface: {vocalsound} Alright .Industrial Designer: Uh{disfmarker}User Interface: No you go and I'll uh supplement you .Industrial Designer: Alright . If Imake mistakes uh you'll uh {disfmarker}User Interface: {vocalsound} Yeah .Project Manager: Correct .{vocalsound}Industrial Designer: Right . Uh well this is our design .Marketing: {vocalsound}IndustrialDesigner: Uh it's pretty uh much uh like uh Mike draw uh drew uh the in the during the last meeting .With uh the different uh perspectives of it . Uh we'll begin uh with the front . We have of course uh thethe round shape uh the round uh basic shape . Um with uh the upper part being the front . Th So there'sthis part um {vocalsound} which is made of hard plastic , the front . And uh we're we're using differentcolours . Of course for the launch we use the basic ugly colours ,Project Manager: {vocalsound} Yeah.Industrial Designer: and later we'll put out uh more interesting covers with different patterns andpictures and everything .Project Manager: Mm-hmm .Industrial Designer: But basically , different colours, bright colours not black , too dark . Fancy colours . {vocalsound} Um then we have uh the lower part{vocalsound} of the of the device . Uh which is of course um part of the back actually , because it's alsotitanium . You can see it also on the on the on the side view , that only this part is the front , and the restof it , the under uh the under side uh of it , yeah , the back side and the lower part of the front is ofcourse titanium made of titanium , and has the titanium colour of course , the look . Um then we have uhon back on the front uh the logo in the upper corner ,Project Manager: Mm .Industrial Designer: uh whichis uh made uh which is also part of the back , part of the titanium uh titanium part .User Interface: Yeah ,it's a double R_ , but {disfmarker}Industrial Designer: Yeah ?User Interface: It's a double R_ .IndustrialDesigner: It's a double R_ . Yeah the logo {disfmarker}User Interface: But {vocalsound} it's very difficultto to draw that in {disfmarker} Yeah .Project Manager: Yeah , alright .Industrial Designer: Uh uh it'sdifficult to draw so small , but it's our double R_ uh logo is in there .Project Manager: Okay . Yeah.Industrial Designer: Um so that's the logo in the upper lef uh right corner . Then we have the buttons .


Project Manager: Okay . So , now um , {vocalsound} last time . Can you uh {vocalsound} push thebutton ? {vocalsound} One time please . So {disfmarker} {vocalsound} I'm still the secretary . Now uh ,I ask you to presentate the prototype . One of your {disfmarker} you two .User Interface:{vocalsound}Industrial Designer: I don't care . {vocalsound}User Interface: Oh this , you mean ?ProjectManager: Yes . The prototype .Industrial Designer: Huh ?User Interface: Yes , well uh this is it .{vocalsound}Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}Marketing: {vocalsound} This is it .Project Manager: Well, thank you . Uh , now {disfmarker}User Interface: It's uh it's uh it's yellow . And uh , this is rubber . Andand and this too . TheProject Manager: {vocalsound}User Interface: the sides .Project Manager: Yes.User Interface: And the rest is hard plastic . And uh {disfmarker} We uh we had some uh {vocalsound}{disfmarker} We had a new idea {vocalsound} that that this can uh can be uh uh turned inside.Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}User Interface: And then it covers the {disfmarker} thesebuttonsProject Manager: Okay .User Interface: until here or something .Marketing: Yes .User Interface:And then you can still use the the power button and the mute and the the joystick .Project Manager:Mm-hmm .User Interface: So , you can still operate uh all the things . Because you don't always use themenu . And then it can break .Project Manager: Okay . And the buttons ?User Interface: Uh , well uh{disfmarker}Industrial Designer: Big . {vocalsound}User Interface: Big buttons . And everything is blue ,except the power button . And the mute . Of uh {disfmarker} yeah , and the mute and the the otherbutton . {vocalsound} Yeah . Channel higher channel button .Industrial Designer: {gap} .Marketing:Yeah .Project Manager: And the joystick is for the volume and the channels .User Interface: Uh , yes .Yes ,Industrial Designer: Yes .User Interface: that's uh {disfmarker} {vocalsound}Industrial Designer:{vocalsound}User Interface: Very obvious .Project Manager: {vocalsound}Industrial Designer: Up ischannel up . Down is channel down . To the right is volume up . To the left is volume down .UserInterface: Yeah .Project Manager: Okay , so if joystick and L_C_D_ . What's the R_R_ {gap} d{vocalsound}User Interface: R_R_'s the l the the the the company uh logo .Industrial Designer: TheR_R_ ?Project Manager: Okay . Very good .Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}Project Manager: So , wehave {disfmarker}Marketing: That's on the rub rubber part .User Interface: Uh , yes . Yes . That's abouthere .Project Manager: So , what they say on the side is put fashion there . Yes . It's good .UserInterface: Oh .Project Manager: So , that's it . That's prototype .Marketing: Yeah ?Project Manager: Now, the finance . {vocalsound} We don't know if it's {disfmarker} th it {disfmarker} if it's okay .Marketing:Alright . {vocalsound}Project Manager: So , I'm gonna look .Marketing: Do we {disfmarker}ProjectManager: We have {disfmarker}Marketing: Do we change the {disfmarker}Project Manager: Sorry?Marketing: Do we change the the order ? Or are we going to uh ev evaluate it first ?Project Manager:Finance is um {disfmarker} Yeah it's {disfmarker} No , first uh {disfmarker} Yes . We have to evaluatethe product yet .Marketing: Okay .Project Manager: Sorry .Marketing: That's uh um {disfmarker} {gap}That can be none . Um , we gonna do the evaluation now , together . But I have uh a introduction how itworks . So , it will come up . Uh-oh . Okay . Um , yeah . Well , we uh {disfmarker} uh , I have umthinked a few evaluation uh criterias , uh based on um our marketing strategy , on uh the latest trends ,on user preferences . Uh , we have a seven point scale from uh true , as well . To false , seven ? And onbase of each c uh criteria , we need to um give a rating . We can uh {disfmarker} Well , it look like this .But we gonna uh do it here , they said . {vocalsound} So , you hope found out how to do it with a Worddocument . Yeah . Okay , yeah . Yeah . Um , well uh we have the Word documentProject Manager:{vocalsound}Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}Project Manager: Criteria .Marketing: You {disfmarker}{gap} So we open up that blank here . Um {disfmarker} {vocalsound} Think I can {disfmarker} Uh ,what this just an example . So , this not very important . But um , if I can get a number in here . Hmm.Project Manager: No , it's okay .Marketing: Well , uh we can't do that .Industrial Designer: I'll get it.Project Manager: Oh , it's okay .Marketing: Um , so uh you have to think of it as uh the remote control istechno technologically innovative . Uh , and then we have to uh agree on the rating together . And in theend , we will c uh count an average of all rating . The first uh on each item .Project Manager: What do


Project Manager: {vocalsound} So um nice to see you again . Uh . So , uh . Tod uh for this meeting I willtake the notes and do the minutes . Uh so we will see our three presentations . Um we will start with theuh Manager Expert wi who will talk about uh user re requirements , whats user needs and what it desirefor this devi device .Marketing: Okay , can I have the laptop over here , or ?Project Manager: Yep . Oh , Idon't think so . I think you have to come here .Marketing: Okay . Have to get up . {vocalsound}ProjectManager: I dunno . I think it should stay .Marketing: Excuse me .Industrial Designer: Yeah , that's it.Project Manager: {gap}Marketing: {vocalsound} Okay .Project Manager: Should stay in the square here. {vocalsound}Marketing: Okay .Project Manager: Oh , maybe .Marketing: Okay , so basically I'm gonnapresent some findings of a study we conducted uh into uh what users want in this remote control .ProjectManager: Oh , you can put it here . Oh that's okay , it's jusMarketing: Um so first of all we {disfmarker}what we did is we um conducted a an experiment with a hundred test subjects . Um we put them in a inour um usability laboratory and got them to , you know , um play with remote controls , and also tocomplete , after they'd done that , to complete a questionnaire uh to tell us what they like and what theydon't like in remote controls . {vocalsound} {vocalsound} So basically um the major things we found outwas that um basically users don't like the look and feel of of most remote controls that are currently onthe market . Um they , you know , seventy five percent of the people we we uh did the experiments on ,found that rem remote the remote controls that they'd used in the past were ugly . Completely ugly . Umthey they didn't match the operating behaviour of the user , that is , you know , the the way users useremote controls when they're watching T_V_ . Um , that the layout of the remote controls didn't matchthey way that they used it . Um and thirdly they say that w half of the users that we um tested said thatthey only used ten percent of the buttons that uh are on remote controls . Um so we collect we also somecollected some usage statistics uh based on how these test subjects were using their remote control . Andfrom this we basically came up with the figure that the channel buttons , the channel selection buttonsare the most {disfmarker} by far the most used buttons on the remote control . Um and you can seethey're used a hundred and sixty eight times per hour on average , um , while the user's watching T_V_.Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}Project Manager: {vocalsound}Marketing: Um the closest button thatwas used , well the cl the button that was used that was closest to the channel button was the teletextbutton , um which was used fourteen times per hour , followed by the volume button , which was fourtimes per hour , um , all the other , all the other um buttons , such as ch um audio and picture selectionum configuration buttons and things were used , you know , l approx well less than or equal to one timesper hour . Um we also asked users um which buttons had the most importance to them , you know ,which which buttons they felt were the most important buttons on on the remote control . And basicallythey came {disfmarker} they said the channel , volume , and power buttons had the highest relevance tousers , um note that only power was very infrequently used , it only had a b a a fr usage frequency ofabout one times per hour , but users ranked it as having a very very high relevance . Um and the audioand picture settings had a very {disfmarker} that well the users thought that um w the audio and picturesettings were very uh weren't very important to them um , and they used them very infrequently a aswell . {vocalsound} So we asked users what what um frustrates them the most about um current remotecontrols . And fifty percent of the users said that uh what frustrates them is losing the remote control umsomewhere in the room and not being able to find it . Um {vocalsound} they also said that it um it takesa lot of time to learn a new remote control , especially when there's many buttons and it's a , you know ,a c a a unintuitive interface . Um and then thirdly , they {disfmarker} some users commented on the factthat the the you know the way that you have to hold and press buttons on a remote control ar are badand um cause u repetitive strain injury . {vocalsound} We also asked some users about some specificfeatures that they'd like to see in the {disfmarker} on the remote control . In particular , do they want anL_C_D_ d display , and secondly , do they think speech recognition uh is a useful feature to have on aremote control .Project Manager: {vocalsound}Marketing: Um basically our findings are that um amongsta younger age groups uh the answer is umv overwhelmingly yes . They want these features , they want


Lynne Neagle AM: Good morning, everyone. Welcome to the Children, Young People and EducationCommittee. We've received apologies for absence from Suzy Davies and there is no substitute. JanetFinch-Saunders is joining us from the Assembly offices in Colwyn Bay via video conference. Can I askMembers if there are any declarations of interest, please? No. Okay. Item 2, then, this morning is apost-legislative scrutiny session on the Higher Education (Wales) Act 2015. I'm very pleased to welcomeKirsty Williams AM, Minister for Education, and Huw Morris, who is director of the skills, higher educationand lifelong learning group in Welsh Government. Thank you, both, for attending, and thank you for thepaper that you provided in advance. I will just start the questioning by asking whether you are planningto repeal the 2015 higher education Act, or will it be amended by the post-compulsory education andtraining Bill?Kirsty Williams AM: Thank you very much, Chair. I'm very pleased to be with the committeeagain this morning, although it's in slightly unusual circumstances. As a piece of post-legislative scrutiny,this was a Bill that was taken forward by a different Minister in a different administration, but I think it isreally valuable work in the context of the question you just set out: what can we learn from theimplementation of this piece of legislation as we move forward with our reform journey and with thisGovernment and my proposals to introduce a new commission for tertiary education? There is much, atthe moment, that lies within the 2015 Act that we will look to bring forward into the new legislation, butthere are certainly experiences—and I'm sure we'll come on to some of the evidence that has beenreceived about what's worked, what perhaps hasn't worked—that we all want to reflect on and be mindfulof as we take forward the new Bill, including the report of this committee as part of it. So, it is ourintention that this Bill will be superceded by the new PCETR Bill.Lynne Neagle AM: Okay, thank you.We've got a series of questions now from Siân Gwenllian.Sian Gwenllian AM: Good morning. Do youbelieve that the Act has fulfilled all the Government's objectives? Where are the weaknesses?KirstyWilliams AM: Diolch yn fawr, Siân. As I've said, it's a bit difficult to place myself in the mind of theprevious Minister when this legislation was first envisaged and then taken through. You'll be aware thatthere were four main reasons for the introduction of the Bill: around regulation of institutions in Wales;safeguarding the contribution made to public good arising from Welsh Government's financial support forthe sector; maintaining a focus on fair access; and preserving and protecting the principle of institutionalautonomy. I think the evidence that has been received by the committee to date shows that there aredifferent views about the effectiveness of whether all four strategic aims have been achieved. I thinkthose strategic aims are still really, really important and certainly will underpin our thought process goingforward, but we have to recognise the higher education and research Bill across the border in England,the implementation of new student support measures in Wales, as well as the report that was done byEllen Hazelkorn, I think, means it is appropriate that we move forward with different proposals, not justregulation of the HE sector but the post-compulsory sector as a whole. We will look to see what we cando to strengthen or whether there is more that we need to do to achieve those four objectives, because Ithink those four objectives are still very, very relevant. But we have to have legislation now that is fit forthe circumstances we currently find ourselves in and, hopefully, futureproofs us for how we want to seethe sector develop in the future.Sian Gwenllian AM: Do you feel perhaps that the legislation itself hasn'tbeen strong enough, and that you then have had to drive some of these objectives through the annualremit letter, rather than through legislation, and that's why the strengthening is required?Kirsty WilliamsAM: Certainly, I see the remit letter as a really, really important way in which national priorities and thepriorities of an elected Government can be clearly stated, communicated to the Higher Education FundingCouncil for Wales, and then HEFCW use their powers to ensure that that happens. So, certainly, I see theremit letter as being a very important mechanism for ensuring, as I said, that those national priorities areclearly articulated, and then change happens.Sian Gwenllian AM: Has the current legislation been framedaround institutional autonomy so that it's not possible for institutions to fulfil any national outcomes, andis that going to be an element of the new Bill?Kirsty Williams AM: Well, certainly, the 2015 Act containsnumerous provisions that protect universities' privileges and autonomy. And that's really important, and


Project Manager: Okay . Right . Conceptual design meeting . Right . Okay , so {disfmarker} Right wellum from the last meeting {vocalsound} I was trying to send you the minutes , but uh it didn't work outtoo well , so maybe in sort of um quick summary of the last uh meeting , I can quickly give you what wewhat we had .User Interface: {vocalsound}Project Manager: Uh right , so {disfmarker} Wishing I hadn'tclosed the damn {disfmarker} Right so we had the fact that we're gonna have the the logo uh thecompany logo in its uh colour scheme incorporated onto the the device the remote device . We had uhmade our decisions about uh made our decisions about uh the device itself , that it was gonna be simpleto make it uh enable us to complete the project in time . We're gonna have uh effectively two pages , afront page which had the uh features that the uh the customers most wanted , and then the uh thebackup features on the second page so that it could uh meet the technical requirements . And thecustomers wouldn't have to look at them too often , only as and when required . So . So basically whatdecisions uh have we uh made ? Uh have there been any uh changes ?Industrial Designer: I think we allhave a presentation again ,Project Manager: Right .Industrial Designer: so if we go through those andthen umMarketing: Yeah .Project Manager: Three presentation , yeah .Industrial Designer: {gap} . ShallI go first again ? {gap}Project Manager: So {disfmarker} Yeah , fine .Marketing: Okay .IndustrialDesigner: I see {gap} this a little more smoothly than the last one . {vocalsound}Project Manager:{vocalsound}Industrial Designer: Okay right , let's get started . Um basically the uh for the {disfmarker}Um I'll {gap} back actually . For the components design , um next step is basically the the way theremote's gonna work is still the same idea as before . We still have the user interface which is all thebuttons we're gonna incorporate . Then there is a chip and still the sender . So um yes {gap} includingthe power s supply as well . Um I'll go on to my findings in each of these areas . Uh first in the powersupply , we have the option of just the standard battery , um . {vocalsound} There's a dynamo . Any ofyou think of kind of like the the old torches which you wind up {gap} um . There's a kinetic option , whichif any of you've seen those new watches which you kind of you power up by waving around , um it justrequires a small amount of movement which would mean the batteries wouldn't have to be replaced . Umthat's one option ,Marketing: Mm-hmm .Industrial Designer: but I think that was gonna cost a little more. And then there's solar cells . Um as a final option . For the buttons , we have um an integrated pushbutton , which is {disfmarker} Oh just to say all all these are um supplied by Real Reaction . So I guessfor the ease of for quickness and ease we should take them from at least like one of these options.Project Manager: Okay .Industrial Designer: Um so for the buttons there's an integrated push button ,which I guess is just the same as the standard ones . This says it's uh similar to uh the button on themouse for a normal {disfmarker} for like uh like modern computer . Um there's a scroll wheel which is{disfmarker} you know the new mouse has just got like the centre section which you can scroll up anddown , which may be for the volume .Project Manager: Mm-hmm .Industrial Designer: You could do dothat .Marketing: Mm-hmm .Industrial Designer: Um one issue for the buttons is , depending on whichmaterial we use , if we use rubber buttons then it requires a rubber case , so we have to take that intoconsideration . Um moving on to the printed sProject Manager: What would be the cost do do we know?Industrial Designer: Um that's on the next {disfmarker}Project Manager: {gap}Industrial Designer: I thI think the there wasn't too much difference in the cost , that that related to the actual buttons , but itdoes affect the printed circuit board . Um which is the next section . Basically for the circuit board whichis the middle , it's just {disfmarker} see it down there the chips like the like the workings of the actualum of the remote .Project Manager: Mm-hmm .Industrial Designer: The firm supplies a simple , a regularand an advanced um circuit board . And there's different prices according to each . So if we've got thescroll wheel for one of the buttons , that would require a slightly more advanced circuit board than if wejust had a standard um push button .Project Manager: Mm-hmm .Industrial Designer: Um one final thingwe came up with was some information on the speech recognition . There's a small unit available throughthe company um which obviously would be an extra cost , but it wouldn't affect the size of the remote toomuch . Um and I guess that would require a more advanced circuit board , so there is an extra price in


Grad D: Channel one .PhD G: Test .PhD E: Hello .Grad D: Channel three .PhD G: Test .PhD A: Uh - oh.Professor F: So you think we 're going now , yes ? OK , good . Alright Going again Uh {disfmarker} Sowe 're gonna go around as before , and uh do {disfmarker} do our digits . Uh transcript one three oneone dash one three three zero . {comment} three two three {comment} four seven six five {comment}five three one six two four one {comment} six seven {comment} seven {comment} eight {comment}nine zero nine four zero zero three {comment} zero one five eight {comment} one seven three five three{comment} two six eight zero {comment} three six two four three zero seven {comment} four{comment} five zero six nine four {comment} seven four {comment} eight five seven {comment} ninesix one five {comment} O seven eight O two {comment} zero nine six zero four zero zero {comment}one {comment} two {comment} Uh {disfmarker} Yeah , you don't actually n need to say the name.Grad C: OK , {vocalsound} this is Barry Chen and I am reading transcriptProfessor F: That 'll probablybe bleeped out .Grad C: OK .Professor F: So . That 's if these are anonymized , but {vocalsound} Yeah{disfmarker}Grad C: Oh . {comment} OK .Professor F: uh {disfmarker} I mean {disfmarker} not thatthere 's anything defamatory about uh {disfmarker} eight five seven or {vocalsound} or anything ,butGrad C: OK .Professor F: Uh , anyway . Uh {disfmarker} so here 's what I have for {disfmarker} I{disfmarker} I was just jotting down things I think th w that we should do today . Uh {disfmarker} Thisis what I have for an agenda so far Um , We should talk a little bit about the plans for the uh{disfmarker} the field trip next week . Uh {disfmarker} a number of us are doing a field trip to uh Uh{disfmarker} OGI And uh {disfmarker} mostly uh First though about the logistics for it . Then maybelater on in the meeting we should talk about what we actually you know , might accomplish . Uh{disfmarker}Grad C: OK .Professor F: Uh , in and {pause} kind of go around {disfmarker} see whatpeople have been doing {disfmarker} talk about that , {pause} a r progress report . Um , Essentially .Um {disfmarker} And then uh {disfmarker} Another topic I had was that uh {disfmarker} uh{disfmarker} Uh {disfmarker} Dave here had uh said uh " Give me something to do . " And I{disfmarker} I have {disfmarker} I have uh {disfmarker} failed so far in doing that . And so maybe wecan discuss that a little bit . If we find some holes in some things that {disfmarker} that {disfmarker}someone could use some help with , he 's {disfmarker} he 's volunteering to help .PhD A: I 've got tomove a bunch of furniture .Professor F: OK , always count on a {vocalsound} serious comment from thatcorner . So , um , uh , and uh , then uh , talk a little bit about {disfmarker} about disks and resource{disfmarker} resource issues that {disfmarker} that 's starting to get worked out . And then , anythingelse anybody has that isn't in that list ? Uh {disfmarker}Grad D: I was just wondering , does this meanthe battery 's dying and I should change it ?Professor F: Uh I think that means the battery 's O K .{disfmarker}PhD A: Let me see .Professor F: d {disfmarker} do youGrad D: Oh OK , so thPhD A: Yeah ,that 's good . You 're alright ?Grad D: Cuz it 's full .Professor F: Yeah . Yeah .Grad D: Alright .Professor F:Yeah . Yeah . It looks full of electrons . OK . Plenty of electrons left there . OK , so , um , uh . OK , so , uh, I wanted to start this with this mundane thing . Um {disfmarker} Uh {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I{disfmarker} it was {disfmarker} it was kind of my bright idea to have us take a plane that leaves atseven twenty in the morning .Grad C: Oh , yeah , that 's right .Professor F: Um . Uh {vocalsound} this isuh {disfmarker} The reason I did it uh was because otherwise for those of us who have to come back thesame day it is really not much of a {disfmarker} of a visit . Uh {disfmarker} So um the issue is how{disfmarker} how {disfmarker} how would we ever accomplish that ? Uh {disfmarker} what{disfmarker} what {disfmarker} what part of town do you live in ?Grad C: Um , I live in , um , the cornerof campus . The , um , southeast corner .Professor F: OK . OK , so would it be easier {disfmarker} thoseof you who are not , you know , used to this area , it can be very tricky to get to the airport at{disfmarker} at uh , you know , six thirty . Um . So . Would it be easier for you if you came here and Idrove you ? Yeah ? Yeah , yeah , OK .PhD G: Yeah , perhaps , yeah .Grad C: Yeah . Sure .PhD E: Yeah.Professor F: OK , so if {disfmarker} if everybody can get here at six .PhD E: At six .Professor F: Yeah , I'm afraid we need to do that to get there on time .Grad C: Six , OK .Professor F: Yeah , so . Oh boy .


Lynne Neagle AM: Good afternoon, everyone. Welcome to the first virtual meeting of the Children, YoungPeople and Education Committee. In accordance with Standing Order 34.19, I determine that the publicare excluded from the committee's meeting, in order to protect public health. In accordance withStanding Order 34.21, notice of this decision was included in the agenda for this meeting, which waspublished last Friday. This meeting is, however, being broadcast live on Senedd.tv, with all participantsjoining via video conference. A record of the proceedings will be published as usual. Aside from theprocedural adaptation relating to conducting proceedings remotely, all other Standing Order requirementsfor committees remain in place. The meeting is bilingual, and simultaneous translation from Welsh toEnglish is available. Can I remind all participants that the microphones will be controlled centrally, sothere's no need to turn them on and off individually? Can I ask whether there are any declarations ofinterest, please? No. Okay. Thank you. Can I just then, again, note for the record that, if, for any reason,I drop out of the meeting, the committee has agreed that Dawn Bowden AM will temporarily chair while Itry to rejoin? Item 2, then, this afternoon is an evidence session with the Welsh Government on theimpact of the coronavirus epidemic on education in Wales. I'm very pleased to welcome Kirsty WilliamsAM, Minister for Education, Steve Davies, director of the education directorate, and Huw Morris, who isgroup director, skills, higher education and lifelong learning. Can I welcome you all and thank you forattending? Minister, I understand you'd like to make a short opening statement.Kirsty Williams AM:Thank you very much, Lynne. And indeed, if I could just begin by, once again, putting on the record mygratitude to everyone who is helping us get through this pandemic. There are a vast number of peoplewho are keeping our school hubs open, looking after vulnerable children, and the children of key workers.Because of them, and their efforts, those key workers are able to carry on their critical roles inresponding to COVID-19. I am extremely proud of the way that members of the school community havegone above and beyond. They have kept their schools open out of hours, over the weekends, on bankholidays, and Easter. And it is really heartening and humbling to see the way that they have responded tothis crisis. And there are teachers, teaching assistants, and many others, who are helping our childrenand their parents to keep learning at home. I know that home schooling isn't easy, so I want to say alsothank you to parents and carers for their efforts at this time. By keeping their children at home, they arehelping us to keep people safe, and reducing pressure on our education system, and on our NHS. Be in nodoubt, we are facing many challenges because of this pandemic. My primary concern is, and always willbe, the health and well-being of our children, of our young people, and of all the staff in our educationsettings. And I am very grateful to everyone who is supporting us in these endeavours. Thank you verymuch—diolch yn fawr. And I'm now happy to answer questions that members of the committee may havethis afternoon.Lynne Neagle AM: Thank you very much, Minister. I'm sure that the committee echoes theheartfelt thanks you have just given then. The first questions we've got this afternoon are from HefinDavid.Hefin David AM: Good afternoon, Minister. With regard to your five principles, which you've set outtoday, regarding when schools will reopen, they're very clear that they require a judgment from you. Socould you outline when you think that schools might reopen?Kirsty Williams AM: Thank you, Hefin. I amvery clear that schools will move to a new phase—because, already, schools are open in many settings;we will move to a new phase when it is safe to do so and when I have advice from the chief medicalofficer and the chief scientific officer that it is safe to do so. I have made very clear in my statement thatthat is not imminent. I know that in some cases there has been speculation that a return to normal couldbe with us quite shortly. I'm clear that a return to normal is not imminent, and therefore I'm not in aposition to give a date as to when we will see more schools opening up to more children.Hefin David AM:Have you been given any indication at all by the chief medical officer as to when, in the longer term, itmight be?Kirsty Williams AM: No, I have not been given a date. What I have done today is publish theprinciples that will aid me in, as you said, me making a decision. So, clearly, we will be relying on theadvice of our medical and scientific advisers, but the principles are very clear. Firstly, we will need toconsider any decision to have more children returning to school in the context of the safety and the


Lynne Neagle AM: Good morning, everyone, and welcome to this morning's Children, Young People andEducation Committee. We've received no apologies for absence. Can I ask Members who are present ifthey wish to declare any interests? Okay, thank you. Item 2 this morning is our final evidence session forour inquiry into targeted funding to improve educational outcomes. I'm very pleased to welcome KirstyWilliams AM, Cabinet Secretary for Education; Steve Davies, director of the education directorate; andRuth Conway, deputy director, support for learners division. Welcome to all of you, and thank you foryour attendance and also for the paper that you've provided in advance. If you're happy, we'll go straightinto questions, and the first questions are from Llyr Gruffydd.Llyr Gruffydd AM: Bore da. I just want tostart by asking some questions around the targeting of the pupil development grant because, clearly,we've had a lot of evidence around this apparent blurring of eligibility to an extent. I'm just wonderinghow comfortable you are that the money is being targeted appropriately because, clearly, it's beingtargeted more widely than just those eligible for free school meals, from some of the evidence we've had,but also that it seems to be predominantly focused on low-attaining frees—pupils who are eligible for freeschool meals.Kirsty Williams AM: Thank you, Llyr. I think it's important to be absolutely clear that when itcomes to individual interventions, those individual interventions should only be targeted at those childrenwho are eligible for free school meals. But in some cases, schools may use their PDG funding to provide auniversal intervention, but we would want to—in challenge advisers' discussions in schools—we'd want tohave evidence that that universal intervention would have a disproportionate effect on the outcomes forchildren on free school meals. So, for instance, if I give you an example in your own region, Llyr: atBrynteg County Primary School in Wrexham, if you look at that primary school in Wrexham, their resultsfor free-school-meal children at the end of their primary school period in school are equivalent to theirnon-free-school-meal counterparts. So, there is no differentiation in those results. One of the things thatthey've used their PDG for is to really focus on the concept of growth mindset in school. So, that's auniversal thing that they've trained all the teachers in, but what we know is that that has adisproportionate effect on those children who are on free school meals. So, if you're familiar with theconcept of a growth mindset, it's about really challenging learners to think that, 'I can do things. Ifsometimes I fail, I pick myself up, I'm more resilient.' Now, that has been, as I said, trained to all theteachers in the school—it's an ethos for the whole school—but we have seen that the impact on thefree-school-meal children has been even greater, and now they're at the same level. So, that's theimportant distinction. Individual intervention per child has to be targeted at those children who areeligible for free school meals, but sometimes a school will employ a whole-school approach to train theirstaff, for instance, and that, then, has to demonstrate it has a disproportionate effect on free schoolmeals. So, growth mindset; it may be attachment disorder training for staff, for instance, where we knowit's of benefit to everybody, but will have particular benefits for that cohort of students. With regard tomore able and talented, you know, Llyr, that this is an area of concern for me, generally, within theWelsh education system; that we've not been particularly good at identifying, supporting and drivingattainment for those children. I'm absolutely clear that PDG needs to be used for those children who areeligible to drive potential, whatever the potential of that child is, including more able and talented. Andagain, I'll give you an example that has been seen as good practice in Pembrokeshire: a window on theworld bus, again paid for by schools. I don't know if you're aware of it.Llyr Gruffydd AM: We've heardabout that.Kirsty Williams AM: Oh, you've heard about it; well, it's a really good example the window onthe world. And, again, that's very much targeted at raising aspirations and giving children who are moreable and talented, who are eligible for PDG, those experiences, and to really push them. So, yes, I'mabsolutely clear that PDG shouldn't just be seen to be getting individuals to the average. For thosechildren who are more able and talented, it should be used to support them—Llyr Gruffydd AM: And weall share those aspirations, I'm sure, and you pointed to examples of good practice, but of course, it's notuniversal, is it, so what I'm asking is: do you think that the guidance is sufficient as it is? Do you thinkthat there's a great enough awareness of how the PDG should be used at the coalface? And also, are you


Grad C: Hmm . Testing channel two .Grad E: Two , two . Grad C: Two .Grad E: Two . Oh .Grad D: Hello?Grad B: Hmm ? Yeah Thank You . OK Well , so Ralf and Tilman are here .Professor F: OK . Great . Great.Grad B: Made it safely .Professor F: So the {disfmarker} what w we h have been doing i they would likeus all to read these digits . But we don't all read them but a couple people read them .PhD A: OK.Professor F: Uh , wanna give them all with German accents today or {disfmarker} ?Grad B: Sure.Professor F: OK .Grad B: OK and the way you do it is you just read the numbers not as uh each single ,so just like I do it .PhD A: Mm - hmm .Grad B: OK . First you read the transcript number . Turn .Grad D:OK , uh {disfmarker} What 's {disfmarker}Professor F: OK . Let 's be done with this .PhD A: OK.Professor F: OK . this is Ami , who {disfmarker} And this is Tilman and Ralf .PhD A: Hi . Uh - huh . Niceto meet you .Grad D: Hi .Professor F: Hi . OK . So we 're gonna try to finish by five so people who want tocan go hear Nancy Chang 's talk , uh downstairs .PhD A: Hmm .Professor F: And you guys are g givingtalks on tomorrow and Wednesday lunch times ,PhD A: Yes .Grad D: Mmm .Professor F: right ? That 'sgreat . OK so , do y do you know what we 're gonna do ?Grad B: I thought two things uh we 'll introduceourselves and what we do . And um we already talked with Andreas , Thilo and David and some lines ofcode were already written today and almost tested and just gonna say we have um again the recognizerto parser thing where we 're working on and that should be no problem and then that can be sort ofdeveloped uh as needed when we get {disfmarker} enter the tourism domain . em we have talked thismorning with the {disfmarker} with Tilman about the generator .PhD A: SGrad B: and um There one ofour diligent workers has to sort of volunteer to look over Tilman 's shoulder while he is changing thegrammars to EnglishPhD A: Mm - hmm .Grad B: because w we have {disfmarker} we face two ways .Either we do a syllable concatenating um grammar for the English generation which is sort of startingfrom scratch and doing it the easy way , or we simply adopt the ah um more in - depth um style that isimplemented in the German system and um are then able not only to produce strings but also thesyntactic parse uh not parse not the syntactic tree that is underneath in the syntactic structure which isthe way we decided we were gonna go because A , it 's easier in the beginningPhD A: Mm - hmm .GradB: and um it does require some {disfmarker} some knowledge of {disfmarker} of those grammars and{disfmarker} and {disfmarker} and some ling linguistic background . But um it shouldn't be a problemfor anyone .Professor F: OK So That sounds good . Johno , are you gonna have some time t to do that uhw with these guys ?Grad E: Sure .Professor F: cuz y you 're the grammar maven .Grad E: OK .ProfessorF: I mean it makes sense ,Grad E: Yeah .Professor F: doesn't it ? Yeah Good . OK . So , I think that 'sprobably the {disfmarker} the right way to do that . And an Yeah , so I {disfmarker} I actually wanna fto find out about it too , but I may not have time to get in .Grad B: the {disfmarker} the ultimate goal isthat before they leave we {disfmarker} we can run through the entire system input through output on atleast one or two sample things . And um and by virtue of doing that then in this case Johno will haveacquired the knowledge of how to extend it . Ad infinitum . When needed , if needed , when wanted andso forth .Professor F: OK that sounds great .Grad B: And um also um Ralf has hooked up with David andyou 're gonna continue either all through tonight or tomorrow on whatever to get the er parser interfaceworking .Grad D: Mmm .Grad B: They are thinning out and thickening out lattices and doing this kind ofstuff to see what works best .Grad D: Mmm , yep .Professor F: Great . So , you guys enjoy your weekend?PhD A: Yes , very much so .Grad D: Yeah , very muchProfessor F: OK , before {disfmarker} before yougot put to work ?Grad D: YeahProfessor F: Great . OK , so that 's {disfmarker} Sort of one branch is toget us caught up on what 's going on . Also of course it would be really nice to know what the plans are ,in addition to what 's sort of already in code .PhD A: Yes .Professor F: and we can d I dunno w w wasthere uh a time when we were set up to do that ? It probably will work better if we do it later in the week, after {pause} we actually understand uh better what 's going on .PhD A: Yes .Grad D: Hmm .PhD A:Yeah .Professor F: So when do you guys leave ?PhD A: Um we 're here through Sunday ,Grad D: OhPhDA: so All through Friday would be fine .Professor F: Oh , OK , so {disfmarker} OK , So {disfmarker} soanyt we 'll find a time later in the week to uh get together and talk about {pause} your understanding of


Project Manager: Okay . Hello everyone . {vocalsound} {vocalsound}Industrial Designer: Hi .UserInterface: Hi .Marketing: Hi .Project Manager: Um how uh how we doing ?Industrial Designer: Yeah ,good .Project Manager: Uh first we going uh over the minutes of the last meeting , more or less .UserInterface: Mm-hmm .Project Manager: Um in the last meeting uh the marketing manager had presenteduh her method of working , meaning gathering i suggestions from everyone to see how she best couldmarket uh this this product at the {disfmarker} within the budget uh that was given . Uh in general{vocalsound} the idea is that it should be something that is not difficult to use . Um it's also an item thatpeople lose a lot . So we should address that . And , of course , it should be something s s that is verysimple to use . In addition to that to make it sell , of course , uh the marketing manager w wishes that itbe very attractive ,Marketing: {vocalsound}Project Manager: or like she says put some sizzle into it inone way or another so that the people are buying it now because , in particular with smaller items , that'sa very important fact , 'cause um if they say , well , I go home and think about it , that won't work . Umalso mentioned was it should be uh {disfmarker} it should have a very short learning curve . And maybeit could be sold by using a slogan .Industrial Designer: Hmm .Project Manager: {vocalsound} Ourtechnical manager has then said that she feels it should have a chipMarketing: {vocalsound}ProjectManager: that has infra-red bits and it has an interface controls w interface that controls the chip .Therefore , messages uh will be controlled in the same manner . There should be extra features like lidbuttons , maybe a beep . If too many buttons are pressed , mm uh uh child lock um and uh maybe adisplay clock so that people could um {disfmarker} you could see the time , you know , what show theywant to watch . Also mentioned was uh maybe different shapes . So the components of the thing shouldbe button , bulbs , infra infra-red bulbs , battery , chips , wires , and maybe some kind of a holder uh forthe for the uh item . Francino who is our umUser Interface: Interface designer .Project Manager:interface designer um uh has mentioned that the {disfmarker} that it , of course , should have an on-offbutton , and also has mentioned an interesting feature that it should have maybe a channel lock .Particularly with maybe small children that they couldn't uh watch a channel that is undesirable . Itshould be compact . Her personal favourite was it should be T-shaped . And maybe have an anaralarm-clock . And the material should possibly be not of non-allergic nature . Uh the different systems uhthat exist are infra-red or radio-waves . Uh maybe it should have uh electri electrici electricity savingfeature .Marketing: {vocalsound} {vocalsound}Project Manager: And {vocalsound} even possibly a timerto {disfmarker} so that people can program {vocalsound} their favourite uh uh program on th right fromthe remote .User Interface: Yes .Project Manager: Uh are we all in agreement that that's about what wediscussed last time ? Okay .User Interface: Yes .Industrial Designer: Yeah .Marketing: Yeah , I think thatpretty much is it . Yeah . Mm-hmm .Project Manager: {vocalsound} Okay , then we {disfmarker} I'mlooking for three presentations . And uh I don't know whether the order matters much uh , I don't I don'tthink so , so whoever w wants {disfmarker}User Interface: Okay , I can start first .Project Manager: Yeah, okay .User Interface: Okay . Now my slide , please . {vocalsound}Project Manager: Okay , your slides .Okay . Oh , come on , close already .Marketing: {vocalsound}Project Manager: And that's number two ,right ?User Interface: Three .Project Manager: Three .User Interface: Participant three . Yes . Okay.Project Manager: Okay .User Interface: Now as an interface designer , I would give more emphasis onthe interface , how the remote looks like so that it is sellable , it is attractive to customers . Next , please. Okay . Now the function of a remote is to send messages to the television . This messages could be uhswitch on-off message or switch to next channel message or swapping the channels or switching onto aparticular channel , like you can have the numbers one , two , three , four , up to nine .Project Manager:Nine what ? Nine channel uh switches ?User Interface: Pardon me ?Project Manager: Nine channelswitches ? Is {disfmarker} Yeah . Mm-hmm . Mm-hmm .User Interface: Yes , nine numbers . And thenyou have swapping of uh buttonProject Manager: Mm-hmm .User Interface: by which {disfmarker} usingwhich you can swap the channels if you don't want to see the third channel you can swap it to the fourthchannel or vice versa . Then it should have a next button , and next button channel by which you can


Project Manager: Hello , uh this meeting we are it's fo should be focused on the conceptual design of theremote control .Marketing: Hello .Industrial Designer: Mm-hmm .User Interface: Hello .Project Manager:Um the goal of this meeting is to reach a decision at the end on the concept and I think the last time wetalked about an a lot and we had a rough idea of what is going to be , but uh in th at the end of thismeeting we have to to reach a decision . So , uh we will have again three presentation , from all of you ,and uh I hope it will be fast because I would like to have time to for long discussion and and decisions .So , who wants to start ? Okay .User Interface: I sMarketing: Okay .User Interface: No , no , you you canstart .Project Manager: So start , uhMarketing: Okay , I'll start . Can you open my presentation ,ProjectManager: {vocalsound}Marketing: please .Project Manager: Uh . {gap}Marketing: I'm number four.Project Manager: This one ?Marketing: Trend . Yep . Can you pass the mouse , please . {vocalsound} Ohokay , that's fine .Project Manager: Turn .Marketing: Okay . Um so basically I just want to presented toyou {disfmarker} present to you some recent results we've had from um looking at uh um some remotecontrol market research and some fashion trends around the world . Um the fashion trends we got fromtalking to our our contacts in the fashion industry based in Paris and Milan . {vocalsound} Um{vocalsound} so f from our market research basically we've come to the conclusion that a fancy look andfeel , um as opposed to a functional look and feel , is our number one priority . Um fancy is is is is the ,you know , highest priority .Project Manager: Hmm .Industrial Designer: Hmm .Marketing: Secondly umthat our remote control needs to be techn technologically innovative . Um so this is t number two prioritybut it's two times less important as the fancy criteria . Um and third thirdly the easiness of use is is theum is is important as well , but again two times less important as the technologically innovativeness ofthe remote control . {vocalsound} From our f fashion people in Paris and Milan , um we've discoveredthat this year um fruit the fruit and vegetable motif will be the most important thing in in clothes , shoesand furniture . So , {vocalsound} I'm pretty confident that our remote control fits into the furniturecategory . And also um the feel of material this year um is expected to be spongy .Project Manager: Okay.Marketing: Um so hopefully our remote control reflects that s in some way .Industrial Designer: Whatdoes it mean , spongy ?Marketing: Uh sort of um squishy .Industrial Designer: Like soft , or something?Marketing: Um . Yeah soft ,Project Manager: {vocalsound}Marketing: like a uh like a sponge .ProjectManager: Like a sponge . {vocalsound} Yeah .Marketing: {vocalsound} I don't know . Yeah .IndustrialDesigner: Okay . I will see .Marketing: Um so in conclusion , we need a our remote control needs to besomething that's really fancy , um has lots of technolog tech technology in it . {vocalsound} Umsomehow would be good to have it related to fruit and vegetables with a spongy feel .Project Manager:{vocalsound}Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Okay .User Interface: {vocalsound}Marketing: And thatit's easy to use and from our last meeting our you know Fabian told us that w you know one of therequirements is that we have to reflect the look and feel of our {disfmarker} of th the Real Reactioncompany . Um .Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}Project Manager: {vocalsound} Yeah , uh yeah.Marketing: {vocalsound} That's it .Project Manager: Easy to use , is it uh a as much as important thantechnology or fancy thing . It's less important , right ?Marketing: Less important .Project Manager: Yeahyeah .Marketing: So um fanciness first and then two ti you know , half as important as that is technologytechnology ,Project Manager: Okay .Marketing: and half important as technology is easy to use . So.Project Manager: {gap} So , Hamed , can you {gap} .User Interface: Yeah . The second one . Could youplease show the presentation number three .Project Manager: Mm-hmm .Industrial Designer: I think thebiggest struggle will be the easy to use feature .Project Manager: {vocalsound} Um . Number ?IndustrialDesigner: {vocalsound} We'll see .User Interface: Yeah .Project Manager: Three .User Interface: Three.Project Manager: This one ? {vocalsound}User Interface: {vocalsound} Yes . {gap} Just Could youplease check if it is the first one or the second . Uh , n n no , it's the first one . The second one .ProjectManager: So it's not this one .User Interface: Uh yeah . Okay . {gap} Okay . So I am going to talk about{disfmarker} a little bit about how this remote control should be appear to be more easy to use . I thinkuh I think the feature easy to use is more important than being fancy , but okay , we can discuss about it


The Chair (Hon. Anthony Rota (NipissingTimiskaming, Lib.)): I call this meeting to order. Welcome to the13th meeting of the House of Commons Special Committee on the COVID-19 Pandemic. This will be ahybrid meeting. Some members will be participating via video conference and some will be participatingin person. In order to ensure that those joining the meeting via video conference can be seen and heardby those in the chamber, two screens have been set up on either side of the Chairs chair, and membersin the chamber can listen to the floor audio or to interpretation using the earpieces at their desks. Beforespeaking, please wait until I recognize you by name, and please direct your remarks through the chair.For those joining via video conference, I would like to remind you to leave your mike on muteMr. ZiadAboultaif (Edmonton Manning, CPC): I have a point of order.The Chair: Can the member wait for thepoint of order until we finish the introduction?Mr. Ziad Aboultaif: There is so much noise in thebackground over there, Mr. Chair.The Chair: That is a very good point of order. I want to remindeveryone that when we speak, it is picked up. We have amazing speakersand an amazing Speaker, butthat's a whole other storyand amazing microphones in the chamber, and they do pick up everything. Iknow there was some chatter going on in the background. I want to make sure everyone is aware of that.Mr. Aboultaif, that was a very good point of order. I appreciate that. For those joining us via videoconference, I would like to remind you to leave your mikes on mute when you're not speaking. Also,please note that if you want to speak in English, you should be on the English channel, and if you want tospeak in French, you should be on the French channel. Should you wish to alternate between the twolanguages, you should change the channel to the language that you are speaking each time you switchlanguages. Should members participating by video conference wish to request the floor outside theirdesignated speaking times, they should activate their mic and state that they have a point of order.Those in the Chamber can rise in the usual way. Please note that today's proceedings will be televised. Iunderstand that there are no ministerial announcements for today, so we'll continue to the presentationof petitions, for a period not exceeding 15 minutes. I would like to remind members that any petitionpresented during a meeting of the special committee must have already been certified by the clerk ofpetitions. For members participating in person, we ask that they please come and drop the signedcertificate off at the table once the petition is presented. The first petition goes to Mr. Manly, who isjoining us via video conference.Mr. Paul Manly (NanaimoLadysmith, GP): Thank you, Mr. Chair. This is apetition that calls on the government to deal with helping our honey bees. They are crucial to our foodsystem. They provide hundreds of billions of dollars worth of services to commercial agricultural cropsand other ecological services every year, and the European Union has put heavy restrictions on thechemicals that are affecting them, the neonicotinoids. This petition calls on the Government of Canada,for the sake of bees and our food security, to follow Europe's lead and adhere to the precautionaryprinciple by banning the use of neonicotinoids in Canada.The Chair: The next presenter of petitions will beMr. Genuis, who is very parliamentary and dressed from the waist up, I understand.Mr. Garnett Genuis(Sherwood ParkFort Saskatchewan, CPC): Thank you, Mr. Chair, and that is all you need to see for themoment. Canadians are horrified by the military report on the conditions of long-term care in Ontario. Itraises big questions about the choices facing seniors in certain situations, which is what makes this firstpetition particularly timely. I am tabling a petition related to Bill C-7, the government's euthanasia bill,which seeks to dramatically remove safeguards that the government said were vital only a short timeago. When some people are living in deplorable conditions, we cannot truly speak of them as having achoice of when they ought to die. Especially in light of that new information, I commend this petition forthe consideration of members of the House. The second petition is in support of Bill S-204 on organharvesting and trafficking, put forward in the Senate. The bill would make it a criminal offence for aperson to go abroad and receive an organ without the donor's consent. This bill seeks to combat thehorrific practice of forced organ harvesting and trafficking.The Chair: The next petition presenter will beMs. May.Ms. Elizabeth May (SaanichGulf Islands, GP): Thank you, Mr. Chair, and greetings fromSaanichGulf Islands. The petition I'm presenting today is petition e-2509, which has been duly certified.