Project Manager: Okay . Right . Conceptual design meeting . Right . Okay , so {disfmarker} Right well um from the last meeting {vocalsound} I was trying tosend you the minutes , but uh it didn't work out too well , so maybe in sort of um quick summary of the last uh meeting , I can quickly give you what we what wehad .User Interface: {vocalsound}Project Manager: Uh right , so {disfmarker} Wishing I hadn't closed the damn {disfmarker} Right so we had the fact that we'regonna have the the logo uh the company logo in its uh colour scheme incorporated onto the the device the remote device . We had uh made our decisions aboutuh made our decisions about uh the device itself , that it was gonna be simple to make it uh enable us to complete the project in time . We're gonna have uheffectively two pages , a front page which had the uh features that the uh the customers most wanted , and then the uh the backup features on the second pageso that it could uh meet the technical requirements . And the customers wouldn't have to look at them too often , only as and when required . So . So basicallywhat decisions uh have we uh made ? Uh have there been any uh changes ?Industrial Designer: I think we all have a presentation again ,Project Manager: Right.Industrial Designer: so if we go through those and then umMarketing: Yeah .Project Manager: Three presentation , yeah .Industrial Designer: {gap} . Shall I gofirst again ? {gap}Project Manager: So {disfmarker} Yeah , fine .Marketing: Okay .Industrial Designer: I see {gap} this a little more smoothly than the last one .{vocalsound}Project Manager: {vocalsound}Industrial Designer: Okay right , let's get started . Um basically the uh for the {disfmarker} Um I'll {gap} backactually . For the components design , um next step is basically the the way the remote's gonna work is still the same idea as before . We still have the userinterface which is all the buttons we're gonna incorporate . Then there is a chip and still the sender . So um yes {gap} including the power s supply as well . UmI'll go on to my findings in each of these areas . Uh first in the power supply , we have the option of just the standard battery , um . {vocalsound} There's adynamo . Any of you think of kind of like the the old torches which you wind up {gap} um . There's a kinetic option , which if any of you've seen those newwatches which you kind of you power up by waving around , um it just requires a small amount of movement which would mean the batteries wouldn't have to bereplaced . Um that's one option ,Marketing: Mm-hmm .Industrial Designer: but I think that was gonna cost a little more . And then there's solar cells . Um as afinal option . For the buttons , we have um an integrated push button , which is {disfmarker} Oh just to say all all these are um supplied by Real Reaction . So Iguess for the ease of for quickness and ease we should take them from at least like one of these options .Project Manager: Okay .Industrial Designer: Um so forthe buttons there's an integrated push button , which I guess is just the same as the standard ones . This says it's uh similar to uh the button on the mouse for anormal {disfmarker} for like uh like modern computer . Um there's a scroll wheel which is {disfmarker} you know the new mouse has just got like the centresection which you can scroll up and down , which may be for the volume .Project Manager: Mm-hmm .Industrial Designer: You could do do that .Marketing:Mm-hmm .Industrial Designer: Um one issue for the buttons is , depending on which material we use , if we use rubber buttons then it requires a rubber case , sowe have to take that into consideration . Um moving on to the printed sProject Manager: What would be the cost do do we know ?Industrial Designer: Um that'son the next {disfmarker}Project Manager: {gap}Industrial Designer: I th I think the there wasn't too much difference in the cost , that that related to the actualbuttons , but it does affect the printed circuit board . Um which is the next section . Basically for the circuit board which is the middle , it's just {disfmarker} see itdown there the chips like the like the workings of the actual um of the remote .Project Manager: Mm-hmm .Industrial Designer: The firm supplies a simple , aregular and an advanced um circuit board . And there's different prices according to each . So if we've got the scroll wheel for one of the buttons , that wouldrequire a slightly more advanced circuit board than if we just had a standard um push button .Project Manager: Mm-hmm .Industrial Designer: Um one final thingwe came up with was some information on the speech recognition . There's a small unit available through the company um which obviously would be an extracost , but it wouldn't affect the size of the remote too much . Um and I guess that would require a more advanced circuit board , so there is an extra price in thatsense . There is th sorry an extra cost in that sense . Um going to my personal preferences , um I thought possibly for power we could use kinetic um which is theidea of the watches um that you move you move the remote around to power it up . And this would avoid batteries running out , having to replace batteries andsuch like . Um for the buttons , I thought we'd probably get away with just having the standard um push buttons rather than the scroll wheel . Um and for thecircuit board , again depends on which features we want in the actual in the remote . So if we wanted the scroll wheel and wanted the voice recognition , um thenwe'd have to get a a more costly circuit board . And that's it .Marketing: 'Kay .Project Manager: {gap} with the printed circuit boards you were going for the{disfmarker}User Interface: Thanks . {vocalsound}Industrial Designer: Um i it kind of depends um if we're gonna have the speech recognition , we'd have toprobably get an advanced one . I'm guessing .Project Manager: Mm-hmm .Industrial Designer: Uh but I don't know , so that is something I'll have to look into.Project Manager: But are we going f R right .Industrial Designer: Um that's a that's a decision for all of us . Um .Project Manager: So are we able to make thatdecision now in a sense that this is the point at which we're discussing that issue ,Industrial Designer: Yeah yeah . We decide . Yeah .Marketing: Mm-hmm.Project Manager: so would it not be best to {disfmarker} rather than {disfmarker} I mean one way is to do each of the presentations and then make decisionsgoing back to the various presentations as they were . The other way would be to do the presentationMarketing: Mm-hmm .Project Manager: and then make thedecision at that point in time .Industrial Designer: Um . Maybe wUser Interface: Yeah , that's probably a better one , to discuss it straight away .Project Manager:'Cause at that point then you've got the details up there , so if we wanted to know for instance that the scroll wheel required the regular {gap} and what requiredadvance . Then if we were able to see that down then we could make the decision at that point in timeIndustrial Designer: Um .Project Manager: and then thatwould be the end of that issue . Does that make sense ?Industrial Designer: Yes .User Interface: {vocalsound} Um I have a lot of the information there.Marketing: Mm-hmm .User Interface: It might not be very clear .Industrial Designer: Is there {disfmarker}User Interface: Unless you want to plug it back in toyours .Industrial Designer: Um . We could do , yeah . Um yeah we should {gap} .Project Manager: {vocalsound}Industrial Designer: As I say it only specifiedthat we need a more advanced circuit board for the scroll wheel ,Project Manager: Mm-hmm .Industrial Designer: it didn't {disfmarker} The voice recognitioncame as a separate piece of information . Um .Project Manager: No the scroll wheel required the regular , so the {disfmarker}Industrial Designer: Yeah if if you{gap} down um . It's just this bit at the bottom which I've highlighted ,Project Manager: Hmm .Industrial Designer: but the scroll wheel requires a mini mminimally a regular chip ,Project Manager: {vocalsound}Industrial Designer: which is in the higher price range .Project Manager: Okay . The display requires anadvanced chipUser Interface: I think the scroll wheel um {disfmarker}Project Manager: the display requires an advanced chip which in turn is more expense.Industrial Designer: Also the display's for something else which we decided against . Um but that bit {disfmarker}Project Manager: Okay .Industrial Designer:And note that the push button just requires a simple chip , so that would keep the price down .Project Manager: Down .User Interface: Yeah , and if we're goingfor sleek and sexy , I think a scroll wheel is maybe a bit kinda bulky ?Marketing: Mm-hmm .User Interface: I I've got um pictures well I've seen pictures with itkind of sticking off the side of it ,Project Manager: Right . Okay .User Interface: and they don't really look great .Industrial Designer: 'Kay . So maybe just asimple push button , and that would cut costs on the {disfmarker}Project Manager: So . So we're going for p Okay . So {gap} is um {disfmarker}Marketing: Soare we going for the w are we going for the simple one , are we ?User Interface: Yeah , a simple pushbuttons .Project Manager: Simple push button .{vocalsound}Marketing: Okay .Industrial Designer: {gap} Did everyone get this on the speech recognition ? The um it was basically what we said before , theidea that you record in a set message , and then it picks up that message um and replies to you .Project Manager: Mm-hmm .Marketing: Yeah .IndustrialDesigner: So it is basically the concept we discussed before . Um but then we don't know for sure whether it would require a more complicated circuit board.Marketing: {gap}Industrial Designer: I'm guessing it would , but {gap} got like the definite information . Maybe we should go on what we're certain of ratherthan {disfmarker}Project Manager: So if we go for the simple push button , so effectively we're going for the simple printed circuit board are we ? Or are wegoing for the regular ?Industrial Designer: Um if it's just the push button then it just needs the simple circuit board .Project Manager: Mm-mm . But is there anyother {disfmarker} {vocalsound} I mean okay , that's true for the {disfmarker} for for that element , but we have to take all {gap} el elements intoconsideration . And so if there is one element that requires the more expensive one , or say the regular one , or the more advanced , then that would have to bethe same for all of them . SMarketing: Mm .User Interface: Hmm . But {disfmarker}Marketing: I suppose we need we need to find out what circuit board thatrequires , maybe before we {gap} m make a decision .Project Manager: Right .User Interface: But the way that I interpret that um it doesn't seem to send out asignal to the telly , it just {disfmarker} it's like a parrot just rep reply replying to your message .Project Manager: Mm-hmm .Marketing: Oh yeah , I suppose so ,yeah .Industrial Designer: So maybe that would be something separate , yeah .User Interface: So I don't think it would effect our circuit board .Project Manager:No .Marketing: Yeah .Industrial Designer: Okay , so we'd have a simple circuit boardProject Manager: {vocalsound}Industrial Designer: and that would be anextra that would be in addition to it .User Interface: Yeah .Industrial Designer: Oh that makes sense .User Interface: And I don't think you could really perform


Grad D: Channel one .PhD G: Test .PhD E: Hello .Grad D: Channel three .PhD G: Test .PhD A: Uh - oh .Professor F: So you think we 're going now , yes ? OK ,good . Alright Going again Uh {disfmarker} So we 're gonna go around as before , and uh do {disfmarker} do our digits . Uh transcript one three one one dashone three three zero . {comment} three two three {comment} four seven six five {comment} five three one six two four one {comment} six seven {comment}seven {comment} eight {comment} nine zero nine four zero zero three {comment} zero one five eight {comment} one seven three five three {comment} twosix eight zero {comment} three six two four three zero seven {comment} four {comment} five zero six nine four {comment} seven four {comment} eight fiveseven {comment} nine six one five {comment} O seven eight O two {comment} zero nine six zero four zero zero {comment} one {comment} two {comment}Uh {disfmarker} Yeah , you don't actually n need to say the name .Grad C: OK , {vocalsound} this is Barry Chen and I am reading transcriptProfessor F: That 'llprobably be bleeped out .Grad C: OK .Professor F: So . That 's if these are anonymized , but {vocalsound} Yeah {disfmarker}Grad C: Oh . {comment} OK.Professor F: uh {disfmarker} I mean {disfmarker} not that there 's anything defamatory about uh {disfmarker} eight five seven or {vocalsound} or anything ,butGrad C: OK .Professor F: Uh , anyway . Uh {disfmarker} so here 's what I have for {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I was just jotting down things I think th w thatwe should do today . Uh {disfmarker} This is what I have for an agenda so far Um , We should talk a little bit about the plans for the uh {disfmarker} the fieldtrip next week . Uh {disfmarker} a number of us are doing a field trip to uh Uh {disfmarker} OGI And uh {disfmarker} mostly uh First though about the logisticsfor it . Then maybe later on in the meeting we should talk about what we actually you know , might accomplish . Uh {disfmarker}Grad C: OK .Professor F: Uh , inand {pause} kind of go around {disfmarker} see what people have been doing {disfmarker} talk about that , {pause} a r progress report . Um , Essentially . Um{disfmarker} And then uh {disfmarker} Another topic I had was that uh {disfmarker} uh {disfmarker} Uh {disfmarker} Dave here had uh said uh " Give mesomething to do . " And I {disfmarker} I have {disfmarker} I have uh {disfmarker} failed so far in doing that . And so maybe we can discuss that a little bit . Ifwe find some holes in some things that {disfmarker} that {disfmarker} someone could use some help with , he 's {disfmarker} he 's volunteering to help .PhD A:I 've got to move a bunch of furniture .Professor F: OK , always count on a {vocalsound} serious comment from that corner . So , um , uh , and uh , then uh ,talk a little bit about {disfmarker} about disks and resource {disfmarker} resource issues that {disfmarker} that 's starting to get worked out . And then ,anything else anybody has that isn't in that list ? Uh {disfmarker}Grad D: I was just wondering , does this mean the battery 's dying and I should change it?Professor F: Uh I think that means the battery 's O K . {disfmarker}PhD A: Let me see .Professor F: d {disfmarker} do youGrad D: Oh OK , so thPhD A: Yeah ,that 's good . You 're alright ?Grad D: Cuz it 's full .Professor F: Yeah . Yeah .Grad D: Alright .Professor F: Yeah . Yeah . It looks full of electrons . OK . Plenty ofelectrons left there . OK , so , um , uh . OK , so , uh , I wanted to start this with this mundane thing . Um {disfmarker} Uh {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I{disfmarker} it was {disfmarker} it was kind of my bright idea to have us take a plane that leaves at seven twenty in the morning .Grad C: Oh , yeah , that 'sright .Professor F: Um . Uh {vocalsound} this is uh {disfmarker} The reason I did it uh was because otherwise for those of us who have to come back the sameday it is really not much of a {disfmarker} of a visit . Uh {disfmarker} So um the issue is how {disfmarker} how {disfmarker} how would we ever accomplishthat ? Uh {disfmarker} what {disfmarker} what {disfmarker} what part of town do you live in ?Grad C: Um , I live in , um , the corner of campus . The , um ,southeast corner .Professor F: OK . OK , so would it be easier {disfmarker} those of you who are not , you know , used to this area , it can be very tricky to get tothe airport at {disfmarker} at uh , you know , six thirty . Um . So . Would it be easier for you if you came here and I drove you ? Yeah ? Yeah , yeah , OK .PhD G:Yeah , perhaps , yeah .Grad C: Yeah . Sure .PhD E: Yeah .Professor F: OK , so if {disfmarker} if everybody can get here at six .PhD E: At six .Professor F: Yeah , I'm afraid we need to do that to get there on time .Grad C: Six , OK .Professor F: Yeah , so . Oh boy . Anyway , so .PhD A: Will that {pause} be enough time?Professor F: Yeah . Yeah , so I 'll just pull up in front at six and just be out front . And , uh , and yeah , that 'll be plenty of time . It 'll take {disfmarker} it{disfmarker} it {disfmarker} it won't be bad traffic that time of day and {disfmarker} and uhPhD A: I guess once you get past the bridge {pause} that thatwould be the worst .PhD B: Yeah , Oakland .Professor F: Going to Oakland .PhD A: Yeah .Grad C: Oakland .PhD A: Once you get past the turnoff to the {pause}Bay Bridge .Professor F: Bridge oh , the turnoff to the bridgePhD A: Yeah .Professor F: Won't even do that .PhD B: Yeah .Professor F: I mean , just go downMartin Luther King .PhD A: Yeah . OK . Mm - hmm .Professor F: And then Martin Luther King to nine - eighty to eight - eighty ,PhD A: Yeah .Professor F: and it 's{disfmarker} it 'd take us , tops uh thirty minutes to get there .PhD A: Oh , I {disfmarker}Professor F: So that leaves us fifty minutes before the plane{disfmarker} it 'll just {disfmarker} yeah . So Great , OK so that 'll It 's {disfmarker} I mean , it 's still not going to be really easy but {disfmarker} wellParticularly for {disfmarker} for uh {disfmarker} for Barry and me , we 're not {disfmarker} we 're not staying overnight so we don't need to bring anythingparticularly except for {vocalsound} uh {disfmarker} a pad of paper and {disfmarker} {vocalsound} So , and , uh you , two have to bring a little bitGrad C: OK.Professor F: but uh {disfmarker} you know , don't {disfmarker} don't bring a footlocker and we 'll be OK So .Grad C: s So just {disfmarker}Professor F: W you're staying overnight . I figured you wouldn't need a great big suitcase , yeah .PhD G: Oh yeah . Yeah .Professor F: That 's sort of {pause} {vocalsound} onenight . So . Anyway . OK .Grad C: So , s six AM , in front .Professor F: Six AM in front .Grad C: OK .Professor F: Uh , I 'll be here . Uh {disfmarker} I 'll{disfmarker} I 'll {disfmarker} I 'll {disfmarker} I 'll give you my phone number , If I 'm not here for a few m after a few minutes thenGrad C: Wake you up.Professor F: Nah , I 'll be fine . I just , uh {disfmarker} it {disfmarker} for me it just means getting up a half an hour earlier than I usually do . Not {disfmarker}not {disfmarker} not a lot ,Grad C: OK . Wednesday .Professor F: so OK , that was the real real important stuff . Um , I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I figuredmaybe wait on the potential goals for the meeting uh {disfmarker} until we talk about wh what 's been going on . So , uh , what 's been going on ? Why don't westart {disfmarker} start over here .PhD G: Um . {vocalsound} Well , preparation of the French test data actually .Professor F: OK .PhD G: So , {vocalsound} itmeans that um , well , it is , uh , a digit French database of microphone speech , downsampled to eight kilohertz and I 've added noise to one part , with the{disfmarker} actually the Aurora - two noises . And , @ @ so this is a training part . And then {pause} the remaining part , I use for testing and {disfmarker}with other kind of noises . So we can {disfmarker} So this is almost ready . I 'm preparing the {disfmarker} the HTK baseline for this task . And , yeah .ProfessorF: OK Uh , So the HTK base lines {disfmarker} so this is using mel cepstra and so on , or {disfmarker} ? Yeah . OK .PhD G: Yeah .Professor F: And again , I guessthe p the plan is , uh , to uh {disfmarker} then given this {disfmarker} What 's the plan again ?PhD G: The plan with {pause} these data ?Professor F: With{disfmarker} So {disfmarker} So {disfmarker} Does i Just remind me of what {disfmarker} what you were going to do with the {disfmarker} what {disfmarker}what {disfmarker} what {disfmarker} what 's {disfmarker} y You just described what you 've been doing . So if you could remind me of what you 're going to bedoing .PhD G: Yeah .Professor F: Oh , this is {disfmarker} yeah , yeah .PhD G: Uh , yeah .Grad C: Tell him about the cube .PhD G: Well . The cube ? I should tellhim about the cube ?Grad C: Yeah .Professor F: Oh ! Cube . Yeah .PhD G: Yeah .PhD E: Fill in the cube .PhD G: Uh we {disfmarker} actually we want to , mmm ,Uh , {vocalsound} uh , analyze three dimensions , the feature dimension , the {pause} training data dimension , and the test data dimension . Um . Well , whatwe want to do is first we have number for each {pause} uh task . So we have the um , TI - digit task , the Italian task , the French task {pause} and the Finnishtask .Professor F: Yeah ?PhD G: So we have numbers with {pause} uh {disfmarker} systems {disfmarker} I mean {disfmarker} I mean neural networks trainedon the task data . And then to have systems with neural networks trained on , {vocalsound} uh , data from the same language , if possible , with , well , using amore generic database , which is phonetically {disfmarker} phonetically balanced , and . Um .Professor F: So - so we had talked {disfmarker} I guess we hadtalked at one point about maybe , the language ID corpus ?PhD G: Yeah . So .Professor F: Is that a possibility for that ?PhD G: Ye - uh {disfmarker} {pause}Yeah , but , uh these corpus , w w there is a CallHome and a CallFriend also , The CallFriend is for language ind identification . Well , anyway , these corpus are alltelephone speech . So , um . {vocalsound} This could be a {disfmarker} {pause} a problem for {disfmarker} Why ? Because uh , uh , the {disfmarker} theSpeechDat databases are not telephone speech . They are downsampled to eight kilohertz but {disfmarker} but they are not {vocalsound} uh with telephonebandwidth .Professor F: Yeah . That 's really funny isn't it ? I mean cuz th this whole thing is for {pause} developing new standards for the telephone .Grad C:Telephone .Professor F: Yeah .PhD G: Yeah , but the {disfmarker} the idea is to compute the feature before {pause} the {disfmarker} before sending them tothe {disfmarker} Well , {pause} you don't {disfmarker} do not send speech , you send features , computed on th the {disfmarker} {pause} the device ,ProfessorF: Mm - hmm . Yeah , I know , but the reason {disfmarker}PhD G: or {disfmarker} Well .Professor F: Oh I see , so your point is that it 's {disfmarker} it 's{disfmarker} it 's uh {disfmarker} the features are computed locally , and so they aren't necessarily telephone bandwidth , uh or telephone distortions .PhD G:So you {disfmarker} Yeah . Yeah .PhD A: Did you {pause} happen to find out anything about the OGI multilingual database ?Professor F: Yeah , that 's wh that 'swh that 's what I meant .PhD G: Yeah , it 's {disfmarker}Professor F: I said {disfmarker} @ @ , there 's {disfmarker} there 's {disfmarker} there 's an OGI


Lynne Neagle AM: Good afternoon, everyone. Welcome to the first virtual meeting of the Children, Young People and Education Committee. In accordance withStanding Order 34.19, I determine that the public are excluded from the committee's meeting, in order to protect public health. In accordance with StandingOrder 34.21, notice of this decision was included in the agenda for this meeting, which was published last Friday. This meeting is, however, being broadcast liveon Senedd.tv, with all participants joining via video conference. A record of the proceedings will be published as usual. Aside from the procedural adaptationrelating to conducting proceedings remotely, all other Standing Order requirements for committees remain in place. The meeting is bilingual, and simultaneoustranslation from Welsh to English is available. Can I remind all participants that the microphones will be controlled centrally, so there's no need to turn them onand off individually? Can I ask whether there are any declarations of interest, please? No. Okay. Thank you. Can I just then, again, note for the record that, if, forany reason, I drop out of the meeting, the committee has agreed that Dawn Bowden AM will temporarily chair while I try to rejoin? Item 2, then, this afternoon isan evidence session with the Welsh Government on the impact of the coronavirus epidemic on education in Wales. I'm very pleased to welcome Kirsty WilliamsAM, Minister for Education, Steve Davies, director of the education directorate, and Huw Morris, who is group director, skills, higher education and lifelonglearning. Can I welcome you all and thank you for attending? Minister, I understand you'd like to make a short opening statement.Kirsty Williams AM: Thank youvery much, Lynne. And indeed, if I could just begin by, once again, putting on the record my gratitude to everyone who is helping us get through this pandemic.There are a vast number of people who are keeping our school hubs open, looking after vulnerable children, and the children of key workers. Because of them,and their efforts, those key workers are able to carry on their critical roles in responding to COVID-19. I am extremely proud of the way that members of theschool community have gone above and beyond. They have kept their schools open out of hours, over the weekends, on bank holidays, and Easter. And it isreally heartening and humbling to see the way that they have responded to this crisis. And there are teachers, teaching assistants, and many others, who arehelping our children and their parents to keep learning at home. I know that home schooling isn't easy, so I want to say also thank you to parents and carers fortheir efforts at this time. By keeping their children at home, they are helping us to keep people safe, and reducing pressure on our education system, and on ourNHS. Be in no doubt, we are facing many challenges because of this pandemic. My primary concern is, and always will be, the health and well-being of ourchildren, of our young people, and of all the staff in our education settings. And I am very grateful to everyone who is supporting us in these endeavours. Thankyou very much—diolch yn fawr. And I'm now happy to answer questions that members of the committee may have this afternoon.Lynne Neagle AM: Thank youvery much, Minister. I'm sure that the committee echoes the heartfelt thanks you have just given then. The first questions we've got this afternoon are from HefinDavid.Hefin David AM: Good afternoon, Minister. With regard to your five principles, which you've set out today, regarding when schools will reopen, they're veryclear that they require a judgment from you. So could you outline when you think that schools might reopen?Kirsty Williams AM: Thank you, Hefin. I am veryclear that schools will move to a new phase—because, already, schools are open in many settings; we will move to a new phase when it is safe to do so and whenI have advice from the chief medical officer and the chief scientific officer that it is safe to do so. I have made very clear in my statement that that is notimminent. I know that in some cases there has been speculation that a return to normal could be with us quite shortly. I'm clear that a return to normal is notimminent, and therefore I'm not in a position to give a date as to when we will see more schools opening up to more children.Hefin David AM: Have you beengiven any indication at all by the chief medical officer as to when, in the longer term, it might be?Kirsty Williams AM: No, I have not been given a date. What Ihave done today is publish the principles that will aid me in, as you said, me making a decision. So, clearly, we will be relying on the advice of our medical andscientific advisers, but the principles are very clear. Firstly, we will need to consider any decision to have more children returning to school in the context of thesafety and the physical and the emotional well-being of children and young people and the staff. Obviously, I can't make a decision regarding education inisolation. It will have to be taken in the context of the wider Welsh Government response to dealing with this pandemic. Thirdly, it is absolutely crucial in makingany decisions that we have clearly communicated that to parents and to staff, on the information that we have used to reach any decisions, to build confidence forparents and professionals, but also to give them time to plan. It will be impossible to move quickly to new ways of working. And we also have to look at—and it'sbeen paraphrased quite a lot today—if we are looking at certain groups of children accessing more education within a school setting, which groups they should be.And, finally, how do we operationalise that? How do we make those settings as safe as they possibly can be, and how do we tackle some of the difficult challengesof everything from ensuring that we have adequate numbers of workforce available, to the very real questions about how you would do social distancing in thecontext of education, school transport issues, how you would avoid people gathering at the school gate, for instance? So, there are very practical issues thatwould need to be considered and thought through very, very carefully before we could return, before what we could see is a move from where we are now to thenext phase of education, and new approaches to what schooling may look like. But, again, I must be absolutely clear to you, members of the committee, and topeople watching: it is not feasible, in this sense, that we would move from where we are now to what all of us would regard as normal education and what theoperation of schools looked like before the start of this pandemic.Hefin David AM: So, what is clear from what you've said is that it's going to be phased return. Iwould assume that would be the most vulnerable—perhaps additional learning needs pupils would return first. Just reading some of the things that you've saidtoday, can you answer that question? And can I also ask: you said that guiding principle No. 3 will be having the confidence of parents, staff and students, basedon evidence and information, so they can plan ahead. What will that evidence and information be, and how will you know that you've got the confidence ofparents to return?Kirsty Williams AM: Well, as I said, primarily, we will need to take a lead from our scientific and medical advisers. I want to also say that we areobviously working on a four-nation basis and keeping in very close contact with my counterparts in Northern Ireland, Scotland and England. But we're alsolooking beyond the United Kingdom to approaches to education in the face of this pandemic. Members are aware that we as a nation are a member of the AtlanticRim Collaboratory. So, recently I was able to talk to educationalists and Ministers in Iceland, other parts of Europe, North America, South America and Australia.So, we're also looking at best international evidence in this regard. And, clearly, we will need to be very clear, as today is an attempt to be very clear with parentsand our teaching professionals, and the unions that represent them, about the basis of that evidence.Hefin David AM: And could I just ask, with regard to theprinciples, do they then apply to further education and universities?Kirsty Williams AM: Well, of course, when we are discussing these challenges, we are doingthat with our colleagues in both the school sector but also our colleagues in the FE sector, and we're in close contact with colleagues in higher education to sharethinking on these matters.Hefin David AM: But these principles don't apply in those circumstances; these are principles for schools only.Kirsty Williams AM: Theseprinciples are applying to both, and our work in this area is applying to both schools and FE colleges. Clearly, universities, as independent institutions, wewouldn't be able to dictate to. But I want to be absolutely clear: we are working with representatives of the HE sector to include them in this work. And I havereceived, not assurances, but from discussions that I've had with Universities Wales and vice-chancellors, they are very keen to be kept apprised of theseapproaches, because they may well wish to implement something similar within their own institutions.Lynne Neagle AM: Okay. I've got a couple ofsupplementaries now; firstly, from Suzy Davies, and then I'm going to go to Siân Gwenllian. Suzy. No, we can't hear Suzy. Suzy? No. I'll go to Siân, then, andthen I'll come back to Suzy. Siân.Hefin David AM: Chair, I don't think my microphone is muted.Sian Gwenllian AM: Okay. I'll move on to my question to KirstyWilliams. Now, it is clear that any decisions that need to be taken on reopening schools would have to be made in the context of all of the other issues that theWelsh Government has to take into account. And it is entirely clear that the approach of Government towards testing hasn't been sufficiently developed for us toeven start to think about removing restrictions. So, wouldn't it be dangerous, if truth be told, to start to discuss reopening schools when we haven't had thenecessary testing in place for the majority of the population? And doesn't it convey a mixed message that we're starting to relax some of these restrictions when,in reality, the restrictions are still in place and still need to be in place robustly?Kirsty Williams AM: First of all, thank you very much, Siân, for that importantquestion. Can I be absolutely clear, and I thought I had been pretty clear in answering Hefin David, that we are not relaxing any of the restrictions with regard toeducation? As I said to Hefin, it is not imminent that we would see a further phase in the next stage of education here in Wales. What I have done today is toprovide clarity on the nature of the principles that I would use when coming to any discussion. It is the responsibility of me, as the Minister, and indeed of thewider Government, to begin to think about planning for the future. But I have been absolutely clear: we are not moving to an imminent change in how educationis operating at the moment. And I'm also very, very clear that should we be given the opportunity to see more children in our schools, I will only do that when itis safe for me to do so, when I've been advised by the CMO that I am able to do that, and we have given sufficient time and planning to the sector to respond. Itis not going to be easy, and we will need to give them, as a sector, time to be able to address. But if I have not been clear enough, let me say it again: we are not


Lynne Neagle AM: Good morning, everyone, and welcome to this morning's Children, Young People and Education Committee. We've received no apologies forabsence. Can I ask Members who are present if they wish to declare any interests? Okay, thank you. Item 2 this morning is our final evidence session for ourinquiry into targeted funding to improve educational outcomes. I'm very pleased to welcome Kirsty Williams AM, Cabinet Secretary for Education; Steve Davies,director of the education directorate; and Ruth Conway, deputy director, support for learners division. Welcome to all of you, and thank you for your attendanceand also for the paper that you've provided in advance. If you're happy, we'll go straight into questions, and the first questions are from Llyr Gruffydd.LlyrGruffydd AM: Bore da. I just want to start by asking some questions around the targeting of the pupil development grant because, clearly, we've had a lot ofevidence around this apparent blurring of eligibility to an extent. I'm just wondering how comfortable you are that the money is being targeted appropriatelybecause, clearly, it's being targeted more widely than just those eligible for free school meals, from some of the evidence we've had, but also that it seems to bepredominantly focused on low-attaining frees—pupils who are eligible for free school meals.Kirsty Williams AM: Thank you, Llyr. I think it's important to beabsolutely clear that when it comes to individual interventions, those individual interventions should only be targeted at those children who are eligible for freeschool meals. But in some cases, schools may use their PDG funding to provide a universal intervention, but we would want to—in challenge advisers' discussionsin schools—we'd want to have evidence that that universal intervention would have a disproportionate effect on the outcomes for children on free school meals.So, for instance, if I give you an example in your own region, Llyr: at Brynteg County Primary School in Wrexham, if you look at that primary school in Wrexham,their results for free-school-meal children at the end of their primary school period in school are equivalent to their non-free-school-meal counterparts. So, thereis no differentiation in those results. One of the things that they've used their PDG for is to really focus on the concept of growth mindset in school. So, that's auniversal thing that they've trained all the teachers in, but what we know is that that has a disproportionate effect on those children who are on free school meals.So, if you're familiar with the concept of a growth mindset, it's about really challenging learners to think that, 'I can do things. If sometimes I fail, I pick myselfup, I'm more resilient.' Now, that has been, as I said, trained to all the teachers in the school—it's an ethos for the whole school—but we have seen that theimpact on the free-school-meal children has been even greater, and now they're at the same level. So, that's the important distinction. Individual intervention perchild has to be targeted at those children who are eligible for free school meals, but sometimes a school will employ a whole-school approach to train their staff,for instance, and that, then, has to demonstrate it has a disproportionate effect on free school meals. So, growth mindset; it may be attachment disorder trainingfor staff, for instance, where we know it's of benefit to everybody, but will have particular benefits for that cohort of students. With regard to more able andtalented, you know, Llyr, that this is an area of concern for me, generally, within the Welsh education system; that we've not been particularly good atidentifying, supporting and driving attainment for those children. I'm absolutely clear that PDG needs to be used for those children who are eligible to drivepotential, whatever the potential of that child is, including more able and talented. And again, I'll give you an example that has been seen as good practice inPembrokeshire: a window on the world bus, again paid for by schools. I don't know if you're aware of it.Llyr Gruffydd AM: We've heard about that.Kirsty WilliamsAM: Oh, you've heard about it; well, it's a really good example the window on the world. And, again, that's very much targeted at raising aspirations and givingchildren who are more able and talented, who are eligible for PDG, those experiences, and to really push them. So, yes, I'm absolutely clear that PDG shouldn'tjust be seen to be getting individuals to the average. For those children who are more able and talented, it should be used to support them—Llyr Gruffydd AM:And we all share those aspirations, I'm sure, and you pointed to examples of good practice, but of course, it's not universal, is it, so what I'm asking is: do youthink that the guidance is sufficient as it is? Do you think that there's a great enough awareness of how the PDG should be used at the coalface? And also, are youconfident that consortia and others have the measures in place to be able to demonstrate that it is being used properly?Kirsty Williams AM: I think, if we look atwhat Estyn has said about PDG, it does actually recognise that the PDG is being used to push more able and talented children, but as always with the system,Llyr, it's whether we can be sure that that is strategic and that it's happening across all of our schools. So, you're—Llyr Gruffydd AM: But not just in relation tomore able and talented, I'm referring to the eligibility and the targeting.Kirsty Williams AM: Oh, the eligibility. You'll be aware that, on the advice of Sir Alasdair,we have employed and appointed new PDG regional advisers, and I think their role is going to be absolutely crucial in spreading that good practice across theregion, whether that's use of PDG for more able and talented, or ensuring that PDG is used in the appropriate way. So, that's there to provide strategic overalladvice. And obviously, we have been very clear with regional challenge advisers, in the relationship and the conversations they're having with individual schools,that they're really challenging their schools about the use of PDG, not just in terms of targeting, but the programmes, what the money is being spent on, whetherthere is an evidence base for that and whether we are clear on impact. So, I think the new regional advisers are going to be crucial in enabling us to ensure moreconsistent practice across the regions.Llyr Gruffydd AM: So, are you content that eligibility for free school meals is the best measure, really, of identifying whichpupils to target?Kirsty Williams AM: Llyr, in the absence of anything better. I'll be the first person to say that maybe it's not as absolutely focused, but in theabsence of anything different to identify a proxy for need, I think it's probably the best that we've got at present. And we will continue to have discussions withlocal government about whether there are different ways. We have to be mindful. Some of the policy levers in this area are out of my hands, so if we look at theroll-out of universal credit, for instance, we've got officials working very hard at the moment to try and understand what universal credit is going to mean andwhere we are going to be able to identify relative need, going forward. We haven't had any additional resource as a result of this, but we're very mindful that,potentially, this has an impact, going forward. And, officials are working all of the time, I must say, in conjunction with the department in England, to understandtheir thinking in this area so that we are in a position to make some decisions about what a notional eligibility for free school meals will look like going forward,but before I make any decisions, I want to assure everybody that there will be a full public consultation on that.Llyr Gruffydd AM: Okay. Finally for now, on thisissue of once a year, in January, if you're eligible for free school meals, then you're in that group for that year. We've had some quite strong evidence about howdifficult that makes longer term planning for a number of schools and we've also been pointed in the direction of what's happened in England with the Ever 6, andI'm just wondering whether you're giving any thought to maybe changing that a little bit.Kirsty Williams AM: Well, we're certainly giving thought to flexibility. Inconversations with Alasdair, who is our independent adviser on this agenda, and individual schools, we're actively giving thought to greater flexibility and maybelonger term projections, so that schools know, for a number of years ahead, what their allocation will be. There are advantages to that system, because you couldgive that flexibility, you could give that long-term approach, but then, how do you make that responsive if a school suddenly has more children? We do know that,actually, the number of free-school-meal pupils is dropping. But there can be changes, you know, regional working in areas of north Wales in tourism, or maybein other areas at Christmas time, parents are able to get a period of work. So, how can we create a more flexible system? We're actively looking at that at themoment. I wouldn't use it as an Ever 6 concept, but as an 'Ever 2' concept. We have looked at Ever 6, and I'm going to be absolutely blunt with you: to introducean Ever 6 concept for Wales would mean in the region of identifying an additional £40 million. I'm going to be absolutely straight and blunt with you: we're not ina position at the moment to be able to identify an additional £40 million to introduce an Ever 6. But issues around flexibility, certainly, are actively underconsideration. In fact, we'll be having a discussion later on today about decisions, going forward, for the next two years.Llyr Gruffydd AM: Thank you.LynneNeagle AM: Darren on this.Darren Millar AM: It's just a very brief point in response to the £40 million price ticket that you just put on that. That's, of course,assuming that you maintain the current level of PDG, yes? So, if you reduced the level of PDG slightly, but made it available to more individuals, if you like, viaallocating it in a different way, then that £40 million price ticket wouldn't be there, would it?Kirsty Williams AM: I was asked a question about had Iever considered an Ever 6. We have looked at that, we've priced that up. I have to make decisions in the envelope of resources that are available to me. Wecould, indeed, change the way in which we allocate PDG money, but we have to do it within the envelope that is available to me, over £90 million. That's asignificant level of investment, but, of course, as always, Darren, we could cut the amount per pupil, but that might have quite challenging swings in allocations.What we have done—because what I am clear on is that there was evidence to suggest that in the secondary sector, a great deal of PDG was being focused onyears 10 and 11, especially year 11, in catch-up provision, and you'll be aware, because we've said this in evidence to the committee in the papers, we've set achallenge to secondary schools to say, 'Actually, the majority of your PDG allocation has to be used in key stage 3.' Now, we have to balance the needs, the moralhazard of turning round to children in years 10 and 11 and saying, 'We're not going to provide catch-up opportunities for you,' because, clearly, those childrenneed that support. But the evidence and the advice that we're receiving is: actually, strong focus on early years, primary and key stage 3, if we get that right,should negate the need for spending money on catch-up at years 10 and 11. That's why we, in our advice to local authorities and schools, say that we want to see


Grad C: Hmm . Testing channel two .Grad E: Two , two . Grad C: Two .Grad E: Two . Oh .Grad D: Hello ?Grad B: Hmm ? Yeah Thank You . OK Well , so Ralf andTilman are here .Professor F: OK . Great . Great .Grad B: Made it safely .Professor F: So the {disfmarker} what w we h have been doing i they would like us all toread these digits . But we don't all read them but a couple people read them .PhD A: OK .Professor F: Uh , wanna give them all with German accents today or{disfmarker} ?Grad B: Sure .Professor F: OK .Grad B: OK and the way you do it is you just read the numbers not as uh each single , so just like I do it .PhD A:Mm - hmm .Grad B: OK . First you read the transcript number . Turn .Grad D: OK , uh {disfmarker} What 's {disfmarker}Professor F: OK . Let 's be done withthis .PhD A: OK .Professor F: OK . this is Ami , who {disfmarker} And this is Tilman and Ralf .PhD A: Hi . Uh - huh . Nice to meet you .Grad D: Hi .Professor F: Hi .OK . So we 're gonna try to finish by five so people who want to can go hear Nancy Chang 's talk , uh downstairs .PhD A: Hmm .Professor F: And you guys are ggiving talks on tomorrow and Wednesday lunch times ,PhD A: Yes .Grad D: Mmm .Professor F: right ? That 's great . OK so , do y do you know what we 're gonnado ?Grad B: I thought two things uh we 'll introduce ourselves and what we do . And um we already talked with Andreas , Thilo and David and some lines of codewere already written today and almost tested and just gonna say we have um again the recognizer to parser thing where we 're working on and that should be noproblem and then that can be sort of developed uh as needed when we get {disfmarker} enter the tourism domain . em we have talked this morning with the{disfmarker} with Tilman about the generator .PhD A: SGrad B: and um There one of our diligent workers has to sort of volunteer to look over Tilman 's shoulderwhile he is changing the grammars to EnglishPhD A: Mm - hmm .Grad B: because w we have {disfmarker} we face two ways . Either we do a syllableconcatenating um grammar for the English generation which is sort of starting from scratch and doing it the easy way , or we simply adopt the ah um more in -depth um style that is implemented in the German system and um are then able not only to produce strings but also the syntactic parse uh not parse not thesyntactic tree that is underneath in the syntactic structure which is the way we decided we were gonna go because A , it 's easier in the beginningPhD A: Mm -hmm .Grad B: and um it does require some {disfmarker} some knowledge of {disfmarker} of those grammars and {disfmarker} and {disfmarker} and some linglinguistic background . But um it shouldn't be a problem for anyone .Professor F: OK So That sounds good . Johno , are you gonna have some time t to do that uhw with these guys ?Grad E: Sure .Professor F: cuz y you 're the grammar maven .Grad E: OK .Professor F: I mean it makes sense ,Grad E: Yeah .Professor F:doesn't it ? Yeah Good . OK . So , I think that 's probably the {disfmarker} the right way to do that . And an Yeah , so I {disfmarker} I actually wanna f to findout about it too , but I may not have time to get in .Grad B: the {disfmarker} the ultimate goal is that before they leave we {disfmarker} we can run through theentire system input through output on at least one or two sample things . And um and by virtue of doing that then in this case Johno will have acquired theknowledge of how to extend it . Ad infinitum . When needed , if needed , when wanted and so forth .Professor F: OK that sounds great .Grad B: And um also umRalf has hooked up with David and you 're gonna continue either all through tonight or tomorrow on whatever to get the er parser interface working .Grad D:Mmm .Grad B: They are thinning out and thickening out lattices and doing this kind of stuff to see what works best .Grad D: Mmm , yep .Professor F: Great . So ,you guys enjoy your weekend ?PhD A: Yes , very much so .Grad D: Yeah , very muchProfessor F: OK , before {disfmarker} before you got put to work ?Grad D:YeahProfessor F: Great . OK , so that 's {disfmarker} Sort of one branch is to get us caught up on what 's going on . Also of course it would be really nice to knowwhat the plans are , in addition to what 's sort of already in code .PhD A: Yes .Professor F: and we can d I dunno w w was there uh a time when we were set up todo that ? It probably will work better if we do it later in the week , after {pause} we actually understand uh better what 's going on .PhD A: Yes .Grad D: Hmm.PhD A: Yeah .Professor F: So when do you guys leave ?PhD A: Um we 're here through Sunday ,Grad D: OhPhD A: so All through Friday would be fine .ProfessorF: Oh , OK , so {disfmarker} OK , So {disfmarker} so anyt we 'll find a time later in the week to uh get together and talk about {pause} your understanding ofwhat SmartKom plans are .PhD A: Mm - hmm .Professor F: and how we can change them .PhD A: Yes . Sure .Professor F: Uh ,Grad B: Should we already set adate for that ? Might be beneficial while we 're all here .Professor F: OK ? um What {disfmarker} what does not work for me is Thursday afternoon . I can doearlier in the day on Thursday , or {pause} um {pause} most of the time on Friday , not all .Grad B: Thursday morning sounds fine ?Professor F: Wha - but ,Johno ,PhD A: Mm - hmm .Professor F: what are your constraints ?Grad E: um Thursday afternoon doesn't work for me , but {disfmarker}Grad B: Neither doesThursday morning , no ?Grad E: Uh Thursday morning should be fine .PhD A: OK .Professor F: Eleven ? Eleven on Thursday ?Grad E: I was just thinking I w I will{pause} have {pause} leavened by eleven .Professor F: Right . Right . This is then out of deference to our non - morning people .PhD A: Mm - hmm . OK . So ateleven ?Grad D: Hmm .PhD A: Thursday around eleven ? OK .Professor F: Yeah . And actually we can invite um Andreas as well .Grad B: Uh he will be inWashington , though .Professor F: Oh that 's true . He 's off {disfmarker} off on his trip already .Grad B: but um David is here and he 's actually knows everythingabout the SmartKom recognizer .Professor F: Thilo . OK well yeah maybe we 'll see if David could make it . That would be good .Grad B: OK so facing to{disfmarker} to what we 've sort of been doing here um well for one thing we 're also using this room to collect data .PhD A: Yeah obviously .Grad B: um um Notthis type of data ,PhD A: Oh , OK .Grad B: no not meeting data but sort of {disfmarker} sort ah our version of a wizard experiment such not like the ones inMunich but pretty close to it .PhD A: Mm - hmm .Grad B: The major difference to the Munich ones is that we do it via the telephonePhD A: OK .Grad B: eventhough all the recording is done here and so it 's a {disfmarker} sort of a computer call system that gives you tourist informationPhD A: Mm - hmm .Grad B: tellsyou how to get places . And it breaks halfway through the experiment and a human operator comes on . and part of that is sort of trying to find out whetherpeople change their linguistic verbal behavior when first thinking they speak to a machine and then to a human .PhD A: Yeah .Grad B: and we 're setting it up sothat we can {disfmarker} we hope to implant certain intentions in people . For example um we have first looked at a simple sentence that " How do I get to thePowder - Tower ? " OK so you have the {disfmarker} castle of HeidelbergPhD A: OK .Grad B: and there is a tower and it 's called Powder - Tower .PhD A: Oh , OK. Yeah .Grad B: and um so What will you parse out of that sentence ? Probably something that we specified in M - three - L , that is @ @ {comment} " action goto whatever domain , object whatever Powder - Tower " .Grad D: Mmm .Grad B: And maybe some model will tell us , some GPS module , in the mobile scenariowhere the person is at the moment . And um we 've sort of gone through that once before in the Deep Mail project and we noticed that first of all what are{disfmarker} I should 've brought some slides , but what our {disfmarker} So here 's the tower . Think of this as a two - dimensional representation of the tower. And our system led people here , to a point where they were facing a wall in front of the tower . There is no entrance there , but it just happens to be the closestpoint of the road network to the geometric center Because that 's how the algorithm works . So we took out that part of the road network as a hack and then itfound actually the way to the entrance . which was now the closest point of the road network toPhD A: Yeah .Grad B: OK , geometric center . But what weactually observed in Heidelberg is that most people when they want to go there they actually don't want to enter , because it 's not really interesting . They wannago to a completely different point where they can look at it and take a picture .PhD A: Oh , OK .Grad D: Hmm .PhD A: Yeah .Grad B: And so what uh uh a s you slet 's say a simple parse from a s from an utterance won't really give us is what the person actually wants . Does he wanna go there to see it ? Does he wanna gothere now ? Later ? How does the person wanna go there ? Is that person more likely to want to walk there ? Walk a scenic route ? and so forth . There are allkinds of decisions that we have identified in terms of getting to places and in terms of finding information about things . And we are constructing {disfmarker}and then we 've identified more or less the extra - linguistic parameters that may f play a role . Information related to the user and information related to thesituation . And we also want to look closely on the linguistic information that what we can get from the utterance . That 's part of why we implant these intentionsin the data collection to see whether people actually phrase things differently whether they want to enter in order to buy something or whether they just wannago there to look at it . And um so the idea is to construct uh um suitable interfaces and a belief - net for a module that actually tries to guess what the underlyingintention {pause} was . And then enrich or augment the M - three - L structures with what it thought what more it sort of got out of that utterance . So if it canmake a good suggestion , " Hey ! " you know , " that person doesn't wanna enter . That person just wants to take a picture , " cuz he just bought film , or " thatperson wants to enter because he discussed the admission fee before " . Or " that person wants to enter because he wants to buy something and that you usuallydo inside of buildings " and so forth . These ah these types of uh these bits of additional information are going to be embedded into the M - three - L structure inan {disfmarker} sort of subfield that we have reserved . And if the action planner does something with it , great . If not you know , then that 's also somethingum that we can't really {disfmarker} at least we {comment} want to offer the extra information . We don't really {disfmarker} um we 're not too worried .PhD A:Mm - hmm .Grad D: Hmm .Grad B: I mean {disfmarker} t s Ultimately if you have {disfmarker} if you can offer that information , somebody 's gonna s dosomething with it sooner or later . That 's sort of part of our belief .Grad E: What was he saying ?Grad B: Um , for example , right now I know the GIS from emailis not able to calculate these viewpoints . So that 's a functionality that doesn't exist yet to do that dynamically ,PhD A: Mm - hmm .Grad B: but if we can offer it


Project Manager: Okay . Hello everyone . {vocalsound} {vocalsound}Industrial Designer: Hi .User Interface: Hi .Marketing: Hi .Project Manager: Um how uh howwe doing ?Industrial Designer: Yeah , good .Project Manager: Uh first we going uh over the minutes of the last meeting , more or less .User Interface: Mm-hmm.Project Manager: Um in the last meeting uh the marketing manager had presented uh her method of working , meaning gathering i suggestions from everyoneto see how she best could market uh this this product at the {disfmarker} within the budget uh that was given . Uh in general {vocalsound} the idea is that itshould be something that is not difficult to use . Um it's also an item that people lose a lot . So we should address that . And , of course , it should be something ss that is very simple to use . In addition to that to make it sell , of course , uh the marketing manager w wishes that it be very attractive ,Marketing:{vocalsound}Project Manager: or like she says put some sizzle into it in one way or another so that the people are buying it now because , in particular withsmaller items , that's a very important fact , 'cause um if they say , well , I go home and think about it , that won't work . Um also mentioned was it should be uh{disfmarker} it should have a very short learning curve . And maybe it could be sold by using a slogan .Industrial Designer: Hmm .Project Manager:{vocalsound} Our technical manager has then said that she feels it should have a chipMarketing: {vocalsound}Project Manager: that has infra-red bits and it hasan interface controls w interface that controls the chip . Therefore , messages uh will be controlled in the same manner . There should be extra features like lidbuttons , maybe a beep . If too many buttons are pressed , mm uh uh child lock um and uh maybe a display clock so that people could um {disfmarker} youcould see the time , you know , what show they want to watch . Also mentioned was uh maybe different shapes . So the components of the thing should bebutton , bulbs , infra infra-red bulbs , battery , chips , wires , and maybe some kind of a holder uh for the for the uh item . Francino who is our umUser Interface:Interface designer .Project Manager: interface designer um uh has mentioned that the {disfmarker} that it , of course , should have an on-off button , and alsohas mentioned an interesting feature that it should have maybe a channel lock . Particularly with maybe small children that they couldn't uh watch a channel thatis undesirable . It should be compact . Her personal favourite was it should be T-shaped . And maybe have an anar alarm-clock . And the material should possiblybe not of non-allergic nature . Uh the different systems uh that exist are infra-red or radio-waves . Uh maybe it should have uh electri electrici electricity savingfeature .Marketing: {vocalsound} {vocalsound}Project Manager: And {vocalsound} even possibly a timer to {disfmarker} so that people can program{vocalsound} their favourite uh uh program on th right from the remote .User Interface: Yes .Project Manager: Uh are we all in agreement that that's about whatwe discussed last time ? Okay .User Interface: Yes .Industrial Designer: Yeah .Marketing: Yeah , I think that pretty much is it . Yeah . Mm-hmm .Project Manager:{vocalsound} Okay , then we {disfmarker} I'm looking for three presentations . And uh I don't know whether the order matters much uh , I don't I don't think so, so whoever w wants {disfmarker}User Interface: Okay , I can start first .Project Manager: Yeah , okay .User Interface: Okay . Now my slide , please .{vocalsound}Project Manager: Okay , your slides . Okay . Oh , come on , close already .Marketing: {vocalsound}Project Manager: And that's number two , right?User Interface: Three .Project Manager: Three .User Interface: Participant three . Yes . Okay .Project Manager: Okay .User Interface: Now as an interfacedesigner , I would give more emphasis on the interface , how the remote looks like so that it is sellable , it is attractive to customers . Next , please . Okay . Nowthe function of a remote is to send messages to the television . This messages could be uh switch on-off message or switch to next channel message or swappingthe channels or switching onto a particular channel , like you can have the numbers one , two , three , four , up to nine .Project Manager: Nine what ? Ninechannel uh switches ?User Interface: Pardon me ?Project Manager: Nine channel switches ? Is {disfmarker} Yeah . Mm-hmm . Mm-hmm .User Interface: Yes ,nine numbers . And then you have swapping of uh buttonProject Manager: Mm-hmm .User Interface: by which {disfmarker} using which you can swap thechannels if you don't want to see the third channel you can swap it to the fourth channel or vice versa . Then it should have a next button , and next buttonchannel by which you can keep on uh v uh mm eh scrolling the channels one by one .Project Manager: Mm-hmm .Industrial Designer: Going to the nex next.Project Manager: Mm-hmm .User Interface: Next slide , please .Project Manager: Mm-hmm .User Interface: Then you should have a button which should whichca which can be used for increasing or decreasing the volume .Project Manager: Mm-hmm .User Interface: Then , there should be a button which can givesubtitles for a particular program which is going on a television . For example , if you are watching a French program and you would like to have a subtitles inEnglish , then there should be a channel which can trigger this mechanism in the television so that the user can see uh the {gap} the subtitles on the screen.Marketing: {vocalsound}Project Manager: Mm-hmm .User Interface: Then there should d uh there should be some buttons which can control features like thecolour , colour of the picture , the contrast , sharpness , brightness of the picture . Now there should be a memory switch . There should be a mute button .Suddenly if if if uh uh viewer he gets a telephone call , and if he want he doesn't want to switch off the uh T_V_ , but he he can reduce the sound , he can bringthe volume down and he can watch {disfmarker} he can uh {disfmarker} while talking he can watch the T_V_ . Now the most important feature I would like tohave in my remote would be the speech recognition feature . It's an integrated progra programmable sample sensor speaker unit . So a remote can be th can beuh designed which can have the voice recognisers , you can record your own voiceProject Manager: Mm-hmm .User Interface: which can be recognised by asvoice recogniser in the television , for example , if you want to see {disfmarker} we if you want to see the ninth channel if you say just say ninth channel , uh thnow the the {disfmarker} uh yeah , the remote will {disfmarker} automatically it will switch to the ninth channel .Marketing: {vocalsound}Project Manager:Mm-hmm . Mm-hmm .User Interface: So the T_V_ will have some recogniser which will recognise the user's voice and accordingly it will change its functionalities.Project Manager: Mm-hmm . Mm-hmm .User Interface: So this is one of the very important feature a remote control can have . So this is one one of theinterface which can be created .Project Manager: Mm-hmm .User Interface: A very simple interface which has all the t uh uh important features .Project Manager:Mm-hmm .User Interface: Then , please , next slide .Project Manager: Mm-hmm .User Interface: Then , these are some of the remotes which are different inshape and colour , but they have many buttons .Project Manager: Mm-hmm .User Interface: So uh sometimes the user finds it very difficult to recognise whichbutton is for what function and all that . So you can you can design an interface which is very simple , and which is user-friendly . Even a kid can use that .ProjectManager: Mm-hmm .User Interface: So can you go on t t uh to the next slide . Yeah , so this is one of the interface or one of the remote which has this vi voicerecogniser .Project Manager: Mm-hmm .Marketing: {vocalsound}User Interface: And this has multi-purpose use , it can be used for T_V_ , it can be used forcable-satellite , it can be used for V_C_R_ , D_V_D_s and audio . And this has in-built voice recogniser .Project Manager: {vocalsound}User Interface: Can you goon to the next slide ? Yeah , now this is an interface for a chil uh for a remote uh uh which a child can use .Project Manager: Mm-hmm .User Interface: Uh this isuser-friendly , it's very attractive and uh children can use it as well as they can play with it . And this comes with different colours , different shapes .IndustrialDesigner: Mm .Project Manager: Mm-hmm .User Interface: And this this uh child uh interface has minimum buttonsMarketing: {vocalsound}User Interface: andall the important uh buttons are there in this small , compact , attractive child interface . Next slide , please . Now this is a big over-sized remote which cannot bemisplaced or it's impossible to misplace .Project Manager: {vocalsound}Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}Marketing: {vocalsound}Project Manager:{vocalsound}Marketing: You don't know me .User Interface: {vocalsound} {gap} {vocalsound} {gap} this . {vocalsound}Marketing: {vocalsound} I could losethat in a minute . {vocalsound}User Interface: {vocalsound}Project Manager: {vocalsound}User Interface: So this is {disfmarker} {vocalsound} No this is a verybig , you cannot {vocalsound} misplace it anywhere .Marketing: {vocalsound}User Interface: {vocalsound} So this is a jumbo universal remote control and it'simpossible to im misplace or lose . {vocalsound}Marketing: {vocalsound}Project Manager: Mm-hmm .User Interface: This i this is one such interface which canbe created . {vocalsound} And the personal preference {vocalsound} uh would be a spe uh uh to incorporate speech recognisers uh which will respond to user'svoice for a particular uh function .Marketing: {vocalsound}Project Manager: Mm-hmm . Right .User Interface: Thank you , that's {disfmarker}Project Manager:Mm-hmm . Okay , thank you very much . Uh any comments on uh her presentation ?Marketing: Well , um looks like we still have quite a choice of things outthere .Industrial Designer: Mm-hmm .Marketing: Um what uh {vocalsound} I'm {disfmarker} No suggestion's bad .User Interface: Mm yes .Marketing: But uhwe're gonna have to narrow it down a little more . I don't think that we can get uh {disfmarker} The T-shape is good , the child one is good , the too big tomisplace , I think it's just funny .User Interface: Okay . {vocalsound}Marketing: {vocalsound} Um I don't think that's gonna be our impulse purchase at thecheckout counter .Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}Project Manager: Yeah , I I th I think {disfmarker}User Interface: Okay . {gap} {vocalsound}Marketing: It'sit's gonna be a little bit too unwieldy .User Interface: {vocalsound}Project Manager: No , I think the these are her presentations , but uh as far as the decisionmaking we getting to that after afterMarketing: Yeah mm . Mm-hmm . Have to come back to that later . Okay .User Interface: We can .Project Manager: but if{disfmarker} I just wanted to know whether anybody had any any anything to add to her presentation .Marketing: No , I think her presentation was good , andshe really explored all the options . Yeah .Project Manager: Mm right . Mm-hmm . Ho who wants to go next um ? Mm-hmm . Okay ,Industrial Designer: Yeah ,


Project Manager: Hello , uh this meeting we are it's fo should be focused on the conceptual design of the remote control .Marketing: Hello .Industrial Designer:Mm-hmm .User Interface: Hello .Project Manager: Um the goal of this meeting is to reach a decision at the end on the concept and I think the last time we talkedabout an a lot and we had a rough idea of what is going to be , but uh in th at the end of this meeting we have to to reach a decision . So , uh we will have againthree presentation , from all of you , and uh I hope it will be fast because I would like to have time to for long discussion and and decisions . So , who wants tostart ? Okay .User Interface: I sMarketing: Okay .User Interface: No , no , you you can start .Project Manager: So start , uhMarketing: Okay , I'll start . Can youopen my presentation ,Project Manager: {vocalsound}Marketing: please .Project Manager: Uh . {gap}Marketing: I'm number four .Project Manager: This one?Marketing: Trend . Yep . Can you pass the mouse , please . {vocalsound} Oh okay , that's fine .Project Manager: Turn .Marketing: Okay . Um so basically I justwant to presented to you {disfmarker} present to you some recent results we've had from um looking at uh um some remote control market research and somefashion trends around the world . Um the fashion trends we got from talking to our our contacts in the fashion industry based in Paris and Milan . {vocalsound}Um {vocalsound} so f from our market research basically we've come to the conclusion that a fancy look and feel , um as opposed to a functional look and feel ,is our number one priority . Um fancy is is is is the , you know , highest priority .Project Manager: Hmm .Industrial Designer: Hmm .Marketing: Secondly um thatour remote control needs to be techn technologically innovative . Um so this is t number two priority but it's two times less important as the fancy criteria . Umand third thirdly the easiness of use is is the um is is important as well , but again two times less important as the technologically innovativeness of the remotecontrol . {vocalsound} From our f fashion people in Paris and Milan , um we've discovered that this year um fruit the fruit and vegetable motif will be the mostimportant thing in in clothes , shoes and furniture . So , {vocalsound} I'm pretty confident that our remote control fits into the furniture category . And also umthe feel of material this year um is expected to be spongy .Project Manager: Okay .Marketing: Um so hopefully our remote control reflects that s in some way.Industrial Designer: What does it mean , spongy ?Marketing: Uh sort of um squishy .Industrial Designer: Like soft , or something ?Marketing: Um . Yeah soft,Project Manager: {vocalsound}Marketing: like a uh like a sponge .Project Manager: Like a sponge . {vocalsound} Yeah .Marketing: {vocalsound} I don't know .Yeah .Industrial Designer: Okay . I will see .Marketing: Um so in conclusion , we need a our remote control needs to be something that's really fancy , um has lotsof technolog tech technology in it . {vocalsound} Um somehow would be good to have it related to fruit and vegetables with a spongy feel .Project Manager:{vocalsound}Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Okay .User Interface: {vocalsound}Marketing: And that it's easy to use and from our last meeting our you knowFabian told us that w you know one of the requirements is that we have to reflect the look and feel of our {disfmarker} of th the Real Reaction company . Um.Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}Project Manager: {vocalsound} Yeah , uh yeah .Marketing: {vocalsound} That's it .Project Manager: Easy to use , is it uh a asmuch as important than technology or fancy thing . It's less important , right ?Marketing: Less important .Project Manager: Yeah yeah .Marketing: So umfanciness first and then two ti you know , half as important as that is technology technology ,Project Manager: Okay .Marketing: and half important as technologyis easy to use . So .Project Manager: {gap} So , Hamed , can you {gap} .User Interface: Yeah . The second one . Could you please show the presentationnumber three .Project Manager: Mm-hmm .Industrial Designer: I think the biggest struggle will be the easy to use feature .Project Manager: {vocalsound} Um .Number ?Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} We'll see .User Interface: Yeah .Project Manager: Three .User Interface: Three .Project Manager: This one ?{vocalsound}User Interface: {vocalsound} Yes . {gap} Just Could you please check if it is the first one or the second . Uh , n n no , it's the first one . The secondone .Project Manager: So it's not this one .User Interface: Uh yeah . Okay . {gap} Okay . So I am going to talk about {disfmarker} a little bit about how thisremote control should be appear to be more easy to use . I think uh I think the feature easy to use is more important than being fancy , but okay , we can discussabout it uh later . Um {vocalsound} generally , generally uh this remote control uh uh should be should be something , in my opinion , uh the first feature is justto be easy to use . So , the more frequent buttons should be larger , they should be placed in a good position uh uh inside the remote control . And uh s uh I canconclude like this , that we shouldn't need to learn how to use it . It should be {disfmarker} we shouldn't need to es open a a t book and uh start reading and uhlearning how to use this uh this uh remote control . {vocalsound} Okay . So what I found out that uh as I said uh I think it's better to put uh more frequent uh uhuh ke uh buttons which are used more in the middle of the remote control , and they should be bigger in size . Uh the shape of remote control should be in a waywhich can {disfmarker} which should be taken easily in hand . It should not be completely like uh a cube . It should be it should have round edge , so uh then it'seasier .Industrial Designer: Exactly .User Interface: And maybe uh just like some toys , some joystick which is easier to take inside the hand . And uh also f uh uhm because because customers doesn't like to buy lots of battery , it should not uh consume lots of energy . Okay . And my personal p uh preference is uh , as Isaid , uh just putting this buttons in a special places and covered some buttons which are not used uh that much like settings button , like mobile phone . Usuallysome mobile phone cover the dialling number part , so we can cover these buttons which are not used or uh number buttons for the for the for the can channels ,and just put uh volume change or s ch can uh channel change buttons uh uh in the remote control . And if the user needed to do some more complex task uh hehe can open the cover and then change settings or something like this . Uh . And also uh I think if we put some some some some some buttons inside of theremote control it can be used easier . Not on remote control . I dunno if I can explain well . But uh just inside . For example , a sliding or rolling uh uh d uh stuff ,if we put it inside then we can easily manipulate with uh thumb . So it can be another uh preference . And uh I dunno but uh I think usage of a speech recogn uh rrecogniser can be good . I know that it consumes lots of energy , but if we do it in some way that it asleeps when there is no sound and when it detects somesound it may consume less energy . And I think it's good because it's something new and usually young people like something new . So it may not be very usefulbut because it's new , people may buy it . Uh I personally think there should be a big difference between uh between something . Otherwise they prefer to buysomething which is coming from a famous company , or . Okay . That's mine .Project Manager: Okay . {gap}Industrial Designer: Uh okay , so good news fromme uh uh for me from Hamed , but bad news from Bob obviously , because spongy design , I don't like it as {gap} {disfmarker}Marketing: {vocalsound}ProjectManager: {vocalsound}Industrial Designer: Okay , so could you please , Fabien , open it .Project Manager: Yeah .Marketing: {vocalsound}Industrial Designer:I'm person two . And which one , uh probably the first one . I'm not sure but check the first one . I {disfmarker} Most of the things I have to write myself on theboard , but {disfmarker}Project Manager: This one , yeah .Industrial Designer: Yeah , that's it . Just {disfmarker} It's only this slide ? Yeah . This this is just uhone thing I wanted to mention and show you that I just uh I just found this , that our company uh developed a s a seven f seven fingers or I'll just{disfmarker}Marketing: Inch .Industrial Designer: Yeah , seven seven inch T_ {disfmarker} T_F_T_ screen , which is good news for us , since we wanted toinclude a display there . Uh so I I probably draw it down raw scheme .Project Manager: Oh , {gap} .Industrial Designer: This is this is the stuff that I can use to{disfmarker}Project Manager: Oops .Industrial Designer: Okay , so the {disfmarker} this will be like the overall scheme or overall requirements from theengineering point of view . Uh first thing is uh this will be the overall shape , no uh I'm not speaking about the real shape of the device , but the shape of theinside of the device . So there will be some circuit uh for the power . So , say power circuit here . Uh the main energy will be taken from batteries that we can uhuh {disfmarker} And if we decide to use the speech recognition stuff there , we must use additional source of energy , which I found the best is to use the solarcells which can which can uh supply everything . I was computing all the all the things related to the speech recognition , and it's okay to use just uh two batteriesand solar cells , so . So no problem . There can be also solar cell . Uh the main board with all the circuits will take at least seven to seven centimetres , so this ismy like hard requirement for the guys from the design .User Interface: Mm-hmm .Industrial Designer: So at least seven to seven . It depends where you put yourscreen , because the screen is uh seven inch , so it depends on you where where you put it .Marketing: {vocalsound}Industrial Designer: It doesn't matter . Umit's just one cord from from the main board to the screen which can be elsewhere . So this will be T_F_T_ . And on the main board we have the um interface tothe microphone , which is somewhere , say here . Interface to the microphone . Then the graphical card uh for the T_F_T_ and the third unit is the I_R_ . Thegood news is that we can uh we decided to use the infra-red unit because our company has also developed the chip for communication by the infra-red , includingall the stuff inside , so it will be very cheap for us . So infra-red here . So the {disfmarker} once again the overall requirements , seven to seven centimetres forthe board , which has to be {disfmarker} which can be spongy but has to be this size , and the T_F_T_ which is seven inches . Um I have to check what I wantedto {disfmarker} Uh from my point of view I don't care about the about the material used for the overall des uh ov all the device .Project Manager: Can you fit anyuh for example a T_F_T_ or any electronic device in a spongy thing , or is there any problem for that ? For example , put electronic card on a spongy thing , I canI can imagine it could be a problem .Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} A all these things in in uh in this box are okay to put in in any shape , basically .ProjectManager: Yep .Industrial Designer: But we have to take care of the T_F_T_ . Well , sponginess . Maybe it a good feature , since it takes {disfmarker} if it's around


The Chair (Hon. Anthony Rota (NipissingTimiskaming, Lib.)): I call this meeting to order. Welcome to the 13th meeting of the House of Commons SpecialCommittee on the COVID-19 Pandemic. This will be a hybrid meeting. Some members will be participating via video conference and some will be participating inperson. In order to ensure that those joining the meeting via video conference can be seen and heard by those in the chamber, two screens have been set up oneither side of the Chairs chair, and members in the chamber can listen to the floor audio or to interpretation using the earpieces at their desks. Before speaking,please wait until I recognize you by name, and please direct your remarks through the chair. For those joining via video conference, I would like to remind you toleave your mike on muteMr. Ziad Aboultaif (Edmonton Manning, CPC): I have a point of order.The Chair: Can the member wait for the point of order until wefinish the introduction?Mr. Ziad Aboultaif: There is so much noise in the background over there, Mr. Chair.The Chair: That is a very good point of order. I want toremind everyone that when we speak, it is picked up. We have amazing speakersand an amazing Speaker, but that's a whole other storyand amazingmicrophones in the chamber, and they do pick up everything. I know there was some chatter going on in the background. I want to make sure everyone is awareof that. Mr. Aboultaif, that was a very good point of order. I appreciate that. For those joining us via video conference, I would like to remind you to leave yourmikes on mute when you're not speaking. Also, please note that if you want to speak in English, you should be on the English channel, and if you want to speak inFrench, you should be on the French channel. Should you wish to alternate between the two languages, you should change the channel to the language that youare speaking each time you switch languages. Should members participating by video conference wish to request the floor outside their designated speakingtimes, they should activate their mic and state that they have a point of order. Those in the Chamber can rise in the usual way. Please note that today'sproceedings will be televised. I understand that there are no ministerial announcements for today, so we'll continue to the presentation of petitions, for a periodnot exceeding 15 minutes. I would like to remind members that any petition presented during a meeting of the special committee must have already beencertified by the clerk of petitions. For members participating in person, we ask that they please come and drop the signed certificate off at the table once thepetition is presented. The first petition goes to Mr. Manly, who is joining us via video conference.Mr. Paul Manly (NanaimoLadysmith, GP): Thank you, Mr. Chair.This is a petition that calls on the government to deal with helping our honey bees. They are crucial to our food system. They provide hundreds of billions ofdollars worth of services to commercial agricultural crops and other ecological services every year, and the European Union has put heavy restrictions on thechemicals that are affecting them, the neonicotinoids. This petition calls on the Government of Canada, for the sake of bees and our food security, to followEurope's lead and adhere to the precautionary principle by banning the use of neonicotinoids in Canada.The Chair: The next presenter of petitions will be Mr.Genuis, who is very parliamentary and dressed from the waist up, I understand.Mr. Garnett Genuis (Sherwood ParkFort Saskatchewan, CPC): Thank you, Mr.Chair, and that is all you need to see for the moment. Canadians are horrified by the military report on the conditions of long-term care in Ontario. It raises bigquestions about the choices facing seniors in certain situations, which is what makes this first petition particularly timely. I am tabling a petition related to BillC-7, the government's euthanasia bill, which seeks to dramatically remove safeguards that the government said were vital only a short time ago. When somepeople are living in deplorable conditions, we cannot truly speak of them as having a choice of when they ought to die. Especially in light of that new information,I commend this petition for the consideration of members of the House. The second petition is in support of Bill S-204 on organ harvesting and trafficking, putforward in the Senate. The bill would make it a criminal offence for a person to go abroad and receive an organ without the donor's consent. This bill seeks tocombat the horrific practice of forced organ harvesting and trafficking.The Chair: The next petition presenter will be Ms. May.Ms. Elizabeth May (SaanichGulfIslands, GP): Thank you, Mr. Chair, and greetings from SaanichGulf Islands. The petition I'm presenting today is petition e-2509, which has been duly certified. Itrelates to what I think many of us will regard as the real heroes of the last few months. In this pandemic, there have often been very underpaid and overworkedfront-line workers who receive minimum wage and nothing more, and who are of course deemed essential services. The petitioners have asked the governmentto implement a wage supplement as a temporary measure to bring the wages for those who are in contact with the general public and working in what has beendeemed an essential service to no less than $20 an hour, in light of their service and the risks they're taking for all of us.The Chair: We have a point of order fromMs. Harder.Ms. Rachael Harder (Lethbridge, CPC): Mr. Chair, the honourable member who just spoke brought up a great point yesterday. She said that when wepresent petitions, we are simply supposed to give one or two sentences before putting them on the table. I believe that was more than one or two sentences.TheChair: I want to remind honourable members that when they are presenting petitions, they should be very concise with the prcis that they give up front, asopposed to going on for a long time. Now we will proceed to statements by members for a period not exceeding 15 minutes, and each statement will be for oneminute. We will start with Mr. Fonseca.Mr. Peter Fonseca (Mississauga EastCooksville, Lib.): Thank you, Mr. Chair. Today I am honoured to recognize the youth inmy riding of Mississauga EastCooksville who are part of the 52nd Mississauga Scouts. For over a decade, I've had the great opportunity to join the Scouts everyyear during the month of May for the door-to-door food drives. This year has been a lot different, owing to the COVID situation, but our Scouts are not used tosaying the word impossible. David Chant, head leader for their cub pack, reached out to share that the youth have found innovative ways to engage ourcommunity through a virtual food bank. I say a big thank you to Scout leaders like David, who are strong role models for our youth, teaching them theimportance of leadership, kindness and giving back. I've always been amazed with the support within our community for the Scouts' food drive. David and hisgroup of Scouts raised over $46,000 worth of food last year for the Mississauga Food Bank and The Compass. Again, I give a huge virtual high-five to all of ouryoung Scouts, who have taken the lead with lots of compassion and care.The Chair: We'll now go on to Mr. Richards.Mr. Blake Richards (BanffAirdrie, CPC): May24 to May 31 is Tourism Week in Canada. This annual celebration is a time for us to recognize the contributions and experiences of Canada's tourism industry.This is a very important industry, and this year's Tourism Week is a little different from what it normally is. The ongoing coronavirus crisis has closed provincialand international borders to recreational travel, and tourism operators from coast to coast have been among the first and hardest hit due to thegovernment-mandated lockdowns. Clear criteria regarding border reopenings and health and safety requirements will allow hospitality and tourism businesses tosufficiently prepare to reopen. This includes rehiring employees, ordering supplies and putting together tour packages and marketing plans. Operators do notneed to be set back any further because of a lack of clarity around reopening. While this Tourism Week is not a celebration like the one we had expected, Ianticipate next year's celebration to be a celebration of an even stronger and more successful tourism industry in Canada.  The 1.8 million Canadians whose jobsdepend on a thriving tourism sector are counting on it.   Bonne semaine to tourism.The Chair: We'll go on to Mr. Rogers.Mr. Churence Rogers(BonavistaBurinTrinity, Lib.): Mr. Chair, Monday was a sad day in my riding of BonavistaBurinTrinity, and indeed our entire province. Please join me as I offersincere condolences to the families of the men who lost their lives at sea in a tragic accident off the coast of St. Lawrence in Placentia Bay.  Ed Norman, his sonScott Norman and his nephew Jody Norman all tragically lost their lives while fishing for crab this past Monday. A fourth man, family friend Isaac Kettle, was alsowith them. After a courageous search mission by Canadian Coast Guard auxiliary members and the Department of National Defence and Provincial Airlines, he isunfortunately still missing. We grieve with the entire town of St. Lawrence as they mourn this tragic loss of life. Mr. Chair, I am sure the entire province ofNewfoundland and Labrador, this parliamentary family and Canadians from coast to coast to coast join me in thinking of these men, along with their friends andfamilies, during this difficult time. Thank you, Mr. Chair.The Chair: We'll now continue with Mr.Simard.Mr. Mario Simard (Jonquire, BQ): Thank you, Mr.Chair. Iwould like to speak to you today about a solid man who unfortunately passed away on May25. We were greatly saddened to learn about the death ofFrancisDufour. This builder of Quebec's political history drew his last breath at the age of91, late Sunday night. Mr.Dufour was the archetypal proudrepresentative of my region who spent his entire life in Jonquire. He first became involved in the Alcan employee's union in Arvida, then continued his civicinvolvement at the municipal level as mayor, then in the Quebec National Assembly as the member for Jonquire. He will be remembered as a man with deep tiesto his community, a man of integrity, a people person, who dedicated himself to serving citizens and advancing the independence movement in Quebec. Onbehalf of the people of the riding of Jonquire and all the people of Quebec, I offer my most sincere condolences to FrancisDufour's family and loved ones. Thankyou.The Chair: We are continuing with MartinezFerrada.Ms. Soraya Martinez Ferrada (Hochelaga, Lib.): Thank you, Mr.Chair. The pandemic has greatly affectedMontreal East, particularly the riding of Hochelaga, which I represent. Today, I'd like to recognize the exceptional work of all the volunteers and organizations inHochelaga that are helping the more vulnerable populations, including Anonyme, CAP St-Barnab, CARE Montral, the Cuisine collective Hochelaga-Maisonneuve,Bouffe Action, the Centre Communautaire Hochelaga, Chic Resto Pop, Jojo Dpannage, Groupe d'Entraide de Mercier-Ouest and many others. I'd like toacknowledge the commitment of the merchants who have rolled up their sleeves, including the Coop Couturires Pop, to make masks. I'd especially like to