Grad A: Why ?Grad D: Um .Grad E: I 'm known . I {disfmarker}Grad A: No , cuz she already told me it , before she told you .Grad E: No , she told me a long timeago . She told me {disfmarker} she told me like two weeks ago .Grad A: Oh , well , it doesn't matter what time .Grad B: OK . You know how to toggle the displaywidth {pause} function {disfmarker}Grad A: Well maybe she hadn't just started transcribing me yet .Grad D: Wow .Grad A: Anyway .Grad D: What is it ?Grad E:Let me explain something to you .Grad D: Um ,Grad E: My laugh is better than yours .Grad D: there .Grad A: I beg to differ .Grad B: Yo .Grad D: Um , OK .GradA: But you have to say something genuinely funny before you 'll get an example .Grad E: Yeah .Grad D: The thing is I don't know how to get to the next page .Here .Grad E: No . You should be {disfmarker} at least be self - satisfied enough to laugh at your own jokes .Grad D: Actually I thought {disfmarker}Grad A: No ,it 's a different laugh .Grad D: There .Grad A: Ooh , wow !Grad D: How weird .Grad E: Oh ! Holy mackerel .Grad A: Wow . Whoa !Grad D: What ? ! Oh . OK . Iwasn't even doing anything . {vocalsound} OK .Grad A: Uh .Grad E: Eva 's got a laptop , she 's trying to show it off .Grad D: That was r actually Robert 's idea .But anyhow . UmProfessor F: O K . So , here we are .Grad E: Once again .Professor F: Once again , right , together . Um , so we haven't had a meeting for awhile , and {disfmarker} and probably won't have one next week , I think a number of people are gone . Um , so Robert , why don't you bring us up to date onwhere we are with EDU ?Grad B: Um , uh in a {disfmarker} in a smaller group we had uh , talked and decided about continuation of the data collection . So Fey 'stime with us is almost officially over , and she brought us some thirty subjects and , t collected the data , and ten dialogues have been transcribed and can belooked at . If you 're interested in that , talk to me . Um , and we found another uh , cogsci student who 's interested in playing wizard for us . Here we 're gonnamake it a little bit more complicated for the subjects , uh this round . She 's actually suggested to look um , at the psychology department students , becausethey have to partake in two experiments in order to fulfill some requirements . So they have to be subjected , {vocalsound} {comment} before they can actuallygraduate . And um , we want to design it so that they really have to think about having some time , two days , for example , to plan certain things and figure outwhich can be done at what time , and , um , sort of package the whole thing in a {disfmarker} in a re in a few more complicated um , structure . That 's for thedata collection . As for SmartKom , I 'm {disfmarker} the last SmartKom meeting I mentioned that we have some problems with the synthesis , which as of thismorning should be resolved . And , so ,Professor F: Good .Grad B: " should be " means they aren't yet , but {disfmarker} but I think I have the info now that Ineed . Plus , Johno and I are meeting tomorrow , so maybe uh uh , when tomorrow is over , we 're done . And ha n hav we 'll never have to look at it again Maybeit 'll take some more time , to be realistic , but at least we 're {disfmarker} we 're seeing the end of the tunnel there . That was that . Um , the uh , uh I don'tthink we need to discuss the formalism that 'll be done officially s once we 're done . Um , something happened , in {disfmarker} on Eva 's side with the PRM thatwe 're gonna look at today , and um , we have a visitor from Bruchsal from the International University . Andreas , I think you 've met everyone except Nancy.Grad A: Sorry . Hi . Hi .Grad C: Yeah .Grad B: Hi . Hi .Grad A: So when you said " Andreas " I thought you were talking about Stolcke .Grad B: And , um ,Grad A:Now I know that we aren't , OK .Grad B: Andy , you actually go by Andy , right ? Oh , OK .Grad C: Yeah .Grad B: Eh {disfmarker}Grad C: Cuz there is anotherAndreas around ,Grad A: Hmm .Grad C: so , to avoid some confusion .Grad B: That will be {pause} Reuter ? Oh , OK .Grad C: Yeah .Grad B: So my scientificdirector of the EML is also the dean of the International University , one of his many occupations that just contributes to the fact that he is very occupied . And ,um , the {disfmarker} um , he @ @ might tell us a little bit about what he 's actually doing , and why it is s somewhat related , and {disfmarker} by uh usingmaybe some of the same technologies that we are using . And um . Was that enough of an update ?Professor F: I think so .Grad B: In what order shall weproceed ?Grad D: OK .Grad B: Maybe you have your on - line {disfmarker}Grad D: Uh , yeah , sure . Um , so , I 've be just been looking at , um , Ack ! What areyou doing ? Yeah . OK . Um , I 've been looking at the PRM stuff . Um , so , this is , sort of like the latest thing I have on it , and I sorta constructed a couple ofclasses . Like , a user class , a site class , and {disfmarker} and you know , a time , a route , and then {disfmarker} and a query class . And I tried to simplify itdown a little bit , so that I can actually um , look at it more . It 's the same paper that I gave to Jerry last time . Um , so basically I took out a lot of stuff , a lot ofthe decision nodes , and then tried to {disfmarker} The red lines on the , um , graph are the um , relations between the different um , classes . Like , a user haslike , a query , and then , also has , you know um , reference slots to its preferences , um , the special needs and , you know , money , and the user interest . Andso this is more or less similar to the flat Bayes - net that I have , you know , with the input nodes and all that . And {disfmarker} So I tried to construct thedependency models , and a lot of these stuff I got from the flat Bayes - net , and what they depend on , and it turns out , you know , the CPT 's are really big , if Ido that , so I tried to see how I can do , um {disfmarker} put in the computational nodes in between . And what that would look like in a PRM . And so I ended upmaking several classes {disfmarker} Actually , you know , a class of {disfmarker} with different attributes that are the intermediate nodes , and one of them islike , time affordability money affordability , site availability , and the travel compatibility . And so some of these classes are {disfmarker} s some of theseattributes only depend on stuff from , say , the user , or s f just from , I don't know , like the site . S like , um , these here , it 's only like , user , but , if you lookat travel compatibility for each of these factors , you need to look at a pair of , you know , what the um , preference of the user is versus , you know , what typeof an event it is , or you know , which form of transportation the user has and whether , you know , the onsite parking matters to the user , in that case . And thatmakes the scenario a little different in a PRM , because , um , then you have one - user objects and potentially you can have many different sites in {disfmarker}in mind . And so for each of the site you 'll come up with this rating , of travel compatibility . And , they all depend on the same users , but different sites , andthat makes a {disfmarker} I 'm tr I w I wa have been trying to see whether the PRM would make it more efficient if we do inferencing like that . And so , I guessyou end up having fewer number of nodes than in a flat Bayes - net , cuz otherwise you would {disfmarker} c well , it 's probably the same . But um , No , youwould definitely have {disfmarker} be able to re - use , like , {vocalsound} um , all the user stuff , and not {disfmarker} not having to recompute a lot of thestuff , because it 's all from the user side . So if you changed sites , you {disfmarker} you can , you know , save some work on that . But , you know , in the casewhere , it depends on both the user and the site , then I 'm still having a hard time trying to see how um , using the PRM will help . Um , so anyhow , using thoseintermediate nodes then , this {disfmarker} this would be the class that represent the intermediate nodes . And that would {disfmarker} basically it 's justanother class in the model , with , you know , references to the user and the site and the time . And then , after you group them together this {disfmarker} nothe dependencies would {disfmarker} of the queries would be reduced to this . And so , you know , it 's easier to specify the CPT and all . Um , so I think that 'sabout as far as I 've gone on the PRM stuff .Professor F: WellGrad D: Right .Professor F: No . So y you didn't yet tell us what the output is .Grad D: The output.Professor F: So what decisions does this make ?Grad D: OK . So it only makes two decisions , in this model . And one is basically how desirable a site is meaning, um , how good it matches the needs of a user . And the other is the mode of the visit , whether th It 's the EVA decision . Um , so , instead of um , {vocalsound}doing a lot of , you know , computation about , you know , which one site it wants of {disfmarker} the user wants to visit , I 'll come {disfmarker} well , try tocome up with like , sort of a list of sites . And for each site , you know , where {disfmarker} h how {disfmarker} how well it fits , and basically a rating of howwell it fits and what to do with it . So . Anything else I missed ?Professor F: So that was pretty quick . She 's ac uh uh Eva 's got a little write - up on it that uh ,probably gives the {disfmarker} the details to anybody who needs them . Um , so the {disfmarker} You {disfmarker} you didn't look at all yet to see if there 'sanybody has a implementation .Grad D: No , not yet , um {disfmarker}Professor F: OK . So one {disfmarker} so one of the questions , you know , about these PR Ms isGrad D: Mm - hmm .Professor F: uh , we aren't gonna build our own interpreter , so if {disfmarker} if we can't find one , then we uh , go off and dosomething else and wait until s one appears . Uh , so one of the things that Eva 's gonna do over the next few weeks is see if we can track that down . Uh , thepeople at Stanford write papers as if they had one , but , um , we 'll see . So w Anyway . So that 's a {disfmarker} a major open issue . If there is an interpreter ,it looks like you know , what Eva 's got should run and we should be able to actually um , try to solve , you know , the problems , to actually take the data , anddo it . Uh , and we 'll see . Uh , I actually think it is cleaner , and the ability to instantiate , you know , instance of people and sites and stuff , um , will help in theexpression . Whether the inference gets any faster or not I don't know . Uh , it wouldn't surprise me if it {disfmarker} if it doesn't .Grad D: Mm - hmm .ProfessorF: You know , it 's the same kind of information . I think there are things that you can express this way which you can't express in a normal belief - net , uh ,without going to some incredible hacking of {disfmarker} sort of rebuilding it on the fly . I mean , the notion of instantiating your el elements from the ontologyand stuff fits this very nicely and doesn't fit very well into the extended belief - net . So that was one of the main reasons for doing it . Um . I don't know . So , uh, people who have thought about the problem , like Robert i it looked to me like if {comment} Eva were able to come up with a {vocalsound} you know , valuefor each of a number of uh , sites plus its EVA thing , that a travel planner should be able to take it from there . And {disfmarker} you know , with some otherinformation about how much time the person has and whatever , and then plan a route .Grad B: Um - hmm , um , {vocalsound} well , first of all uh , uh , great


Lynne Neagle AM: Good morning, everyone. Welcome to the Children, Young People and Education Committee. We've received apologies for absence fromMichelle Brown and Jack Sargeant; there are no substitutions. Can I ask if Members have any declarations of interest, please? No. Okay. We'll move on, then, toitem 2, which is our scrutiny of the 'Healthy Weight: Healthy Wales' draft strategy, and I'm very pleased to welcome Dr Frank Atherton, the Chief Medical Officerfor Wales, and Nathan Cook, who is the head of the healthy and active branch at Welsh Government. Thank you, both, for attending this morning. We're verymuch looking forward to hearing what you've got to say. If you're happy, we'll go straight into questions. If I can just start by asking about the fact that 'HealthyWeight: Healthy Wales' is an all-age strategy, really, and how confident you are that it will deliver for children and young people.Dr Frank Atherton: Well, we'revery confident. I mean, it has to, quite clearly. We do need to think about the present generation, the problems faced by the current generation. We have highprevalence of overweight and obesity among adults—we know that, and we can't walk away from that because that's translating into demand on health services.But we have to take a focus, a future generation's focus, almost, on the next generation. I don't write off the current generation, we can't afford to do that, butwe do need to think about what can we do that would be different for the next generation so that they don't get into the sorts of problems that we're currentlyseeing with overweight and obesity. We know that the consequences of that for our young people are going to be enormous if we don't do something andsomething quite soon. We know that overweight children go on to become overweight adults, unfortunately, and that brings all the consequences of multipledisease issues—diabetes is often cited—cancer risk et cetera. So, we have to focus on children, and, in fact, during the consultation, we've been very clear thatwe need to engage with children and young people as well. Perhaps we'll get into that at some point, Chair, but, yes, I can give you that assurance.Lynne NeagleAM: Okay, thank you. What my follow-up question, really, is: can you just tell us what kind of engagement you've had with children and young people to informthe draft strategy?Dr Frank Atherton: Well, Nathan may be able to influence some of the detail, but in broad terms, we have discussed with young people in anumber of fora. In fact, I was delighted that we had a young person, Evie Morgan, a schoolgirl from mid Wales, who came to the joint launch on the consultation.She met the Minister there and gave a very good personal account of her views on obesity and overweight. We've been visiting a number of schools during theconsultation process. I'm visiting a school, either this week or next week, at Treorchy, to talk with teachers and young people there. Obviously, we're hopeful thatschools and young people will contribute to the consultation as well. So, we've had quite good input, I would say, from children and young people. There is alwaysmore we can do we and we want to hear those voices.Nathan Cook: I was going to say, we've also had a session with youth ambassadors as well, and what we'veactually produced for the consultation is not just the children and young people's version, but also a toolkit in terms of getting schools really engaged andinvolved in terms of the work that we want them to do to feed into this as well. So, we've already had some really good responses from a lot of youth group andschools already.Lynne Neagle AM: And you've got a structured programme, have you, to roll that out? Okay. Thank you. We've got some questions now onleadership, and the first questions are from Siân Gwenllian.Sian Gwenllian AM: Good morning. I'll be speaking in Welsh. The Minister for health said yesterday, inanswering a question from me on the Chamber floor, that you gave him advice not to have a target in terms of reducing obesity among children. Could youconfirm that that's what your advice was and tell us why you don't think that a target is needed?Dr Frank Atherton: My advice was not that we don't need atarget—we may well need a target, and that's one of the issues we need to consult on—but that the target that had been adopted in England and in Scotland tohalve the prevalence of obesity in children was more aspirational than deliverable, and that if we are to choose a target in Wales, then we need to balancedeliverability with challenge. We need a challenging environment. So, there is something about performance management, because I would be looking to not justthe health system but the health and care system and to public services boards to think about how they're delivering on this, and I think we can use targets tothat. But they are one tool in the box that I would think we could use, and part of the consultation is to ask that question—'If we are to go down a route in Walesof choosing a target, what might that look like?'Sian Gwenllian AM: Okay. So, to be clear, you're not ruling out that maybe we would need a target.Dr FrankAtherton: It's certainly something that we could consider in terms of the final strategy.Sian Gwenllian AM: And is that your opinion too?Nathan Cook: Yes.SianGwenllian AM: Okay. Well, that is contrary to what I was told yesterday on the floor of the Chamber by the Minister, but there we go. I'm glad to hear that you'renot ruling out having a target, because without a target, without something to aim for, how do we know that we're getting there?Dr Frank Atherton: I think yourpoint about evaluation is really important. Whatever we produce at the end of this process—and we're looking to produce a final strategy towards the autumn—wedo need to have a strong evaluation. So, some metrics in there, it would seem, would be appropriate, but what those are, what the nature of those are, do weframe them as targets or ambitions—that's the point we need to consult on.Sian Gwenllian AM: Okay. And the other point, of course, is the investment. If theGovernment is going to be successful in terms of the aim of reducing childhood obesity, then it needs to fund and support the actions. Have you made anassessment of the level of investment needed to implement this plan?Dr Frank Atherton: Resourcing will be important. We currently do make investments in anumber of areas that relate to child health generally, and, of course, obesity and overweight in particular. So, the question of resourcing is important. Now, wecan't quantify an absolute amount of resource that will be needed to deliver until we know exactly what's going to come out of the consultation and what actionswe might want to deliver to a greater degree in Wales. A figure of £8 million to £10 million a year has been banded around as a broad kind of area of what wemight need to invest, but that would need to be drawn from existing programmes. We need to look at existing programmes, how effective they are. Can we makethem more effective? Can we get better value from them? And there may well be a case for new investment, and that's a question, of course, that would need tobe discussed with Ministers when we're producing the final strategy.Nathan Cook: But I think a key consideration as well is we already know there is investmentacross health boards in some kind of obesity-related services. So, I think what we really need to think about across Wales is how we can drive greater scale, howwe can look at current programmes in terms of making sure that they're better evaluated, and how we can make sure that we're also drawing up on the existingresources and capacity out there as well.Sian Gwenllian AM: And does the level of investment depend on what the target is—what the goal is?Dr Frank Atherton: Idon't think you can necessarily just link the two. The issue of resourcing is one that's there irrespective of whether we choose to put a target in place.SianGwenllian AM: But how would we know that it's being used effectively if there isn't something to aim for?Dr Frank Atherton: Which brings you back to thequestion about evaluation. We need proper evaluation of the various programmes that we have.Sian Gwenllian AM: Yes, but without a target, how can youproperly evaluate? If you don't know what you're trying to do, how can you properly evaluate? Anyway, you're open to suggestions about having a target, whichis great. Would you agree that Government could use the revenue that's being produced through the levy on soft drinks towards some of these efforts to—?DrFrank Atherton: Well, of course, there are some consequentials that are coming to the Welsh Government as part of the levy on sugary soft drinks. That funding,of course, is less than we had anticipated, and that reflects, actually, a success story because industry is reformulating, and so the amount of sugar in soft drinksis already starting to decrease, which is a good thing. But to your question: should we use the funding? Well, of course we should use funding. I'm not personallyin favour of hypothecation, I think I'm more interested in the totality of resource that goes into public health programmes than into marginal resource. There are,of course, a number of initiatives that we currently fund through the general revenue. And when I think about obesity, I don't just think about the relatively smallmarginal amounts of money that come in through whatever source, but I think about the totality of the £7 billion we spend in health and social care and how wecan divert and channel some of that towards broad prevention initiatives in general, and towards tackling being overweight and obesity in particular.SianGwenllian AM: You're saying that it's less than expected. Could you give us any kind of figure?Dr Frank Atherton: I'm sorry, could you repeat the question?SianGwenllian AM: You say that there is less money that's come in through these consequentials from the levy, can you mention some sort of figure?Dr FrankAtherton: The figure that I have in mind is about £56 million that's coming in in terms of revenue over a two-year period. But I'd have to confirm that with thecommittee. What the anticipated—. When the sugar levy was first brought in, there was some modelling at UK level about what level of revenue that would bring,but it was based on the amount of sugar that was currently then in drinks and the fact that the sugar has reduced in drinks, I mean, the total amount available tothe UK is less and hence our consequentials are less. Nathan may have some precise figures.Nathan Cook: Yes, I was going to say, there was a mid-year reportdone where the levy has raised £150 million to date since coming into force in April, and the original forecast was £520 million a year. So, I think that shows theamount of work that's been done by industry around reformulation.Sian Gwenllian AM: And the consequentials of that? That is the consequential—£150million.Nathan Cook: On a UK level.Sian Gwenllian AM: Yes, so what's the Welsh consequential?Lynne Neagle AM: Fifty-six.Sian Gwenllian AM: Fifty-six? Gosh,that sounds a lot. Anyway, it's a good sum of money and you're talking about investing £8 million to £10 million. So, obviously, you know, we can be moreambitious because there is money in that pot if that money was ring-fenced for this particular scheme.Dr Frank Atherton: Well, the resource is going to be a real


Professor B: OK So uh today we 're looking at a number of uh things we 're trying and uh fortunately for listeners to this uh we lost some of it 's visual but um gottables in front of us . Um what is {disfmarker} what does combo mean ?PhD C: So combo is um a system where we have these features that go through anetwork and then this same string of features but low - pass filtered with the low - pass filter used in the MSG features . And so these low - pass filtered goesthrough M eh {disfmarker} another MLP and then the linear output of these two MLP 's are combined just by adding the values and then there is this KLT . Umthe output is used as uh features as well .Professor B: Um so let me try to restate this and see if I have it right . There is uh {disfmarker} there is the features uhthere 's the OGI features and then um those features um go through a contextual {disfmarker} uh l l let 's take this bottom arr one pointed to by the bottomarrow . Um those features go through a contextualized KLT . Then these features also uh get um low - pass filteredPhD C: Yeah . Yeah so yeah I could perhapsdraw this on the blackboardProfessor B: Sure . Yeah . Yeah .PhD C: Yeah .PhD D: The graph , yeah another one .Professor B: Yeah , that 's good .PhD C:Professor B: SoPhD C: So we have these features from OGI that goes through the three paths .Professor B: Yeah . Three , OK .PhD C: The first is a KLT usingseveral frames of the features .Professor B: Yeah . Yeah .PhD C: The second path is uh MLP also using nine frames {disfmarker} several frames offeaturesProfessor B: Yeah . Uh - huh .PhD C: The third path is this low - pass filter .Professor B: Uh - huh .PhD C: Uh , MLPProfessor B: Aha ! aha !PhD C: Addingthe outputs just like in the second propose the {disfmarker} the proposal from {disfmarker} for the first evaluation .Professor B: Yeah ? Yeah . Yeah .PhD C: Andthen the KLT and then the two together again .Professor B: No , the KLT . And those two together . That 's it .PhD D: Two HTK .Professor B: OK so that 's{disfmarker} that 's this bottom one .PhD C: Um . So this is {disfmarker} yeahProfessor B: And so uh and then the {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} the one at thetop {disfmarker} and I presume these things that uh are in yellow are in yellow because overall they 're the best ?PhD C: Yeah that 's the reason , yeah.Professor B: Oh let 's focus on them then so what 's the block diagram for the one above it ?PhD C: For the f the f first yellow line you mean ?Professor B: Yeah.PhD C: Yeah so it 's uh basically s the same except that we don't have this uh low - pass filtering so we have only two streams .PhD D: Step .PhD C: Well . There's {disfmarker} there 's no low {disfmarker} low - pass processing used as additional feature stream .Professor B: Mm - hmm . Mm - hmm .PhD C: UmProfessorB: Do you e um they mentioned {disfmarker} made some {disfmarker} uh when I was on the phone with Sunil they {disfmarker} they mentioned someweighting scheme that was used to evaluate all of these numbers .PhD C: Yeah . Uh actually the way things seems to um well it 's uh forty percent for TI - digit ,sixty for all the SpeechDat - Cars , well all these languages . Ehm the well match is forty , medium thirty five and high mismatch twenty - five . Yeah .Professor B:Um and we don't have the TI - digits part yet ?PhD C: Uh , no .Professor B: OK .PhD C: But yeah . Generally what you observe with TI - digits is that the resultare very close whatever the {disfmarker} the system .Professor B: OK . And so have you put all these numbers together into a single number representing that?PhD C: Yeah .Professor B: I mean not {disfmarker}PhD C: Uh not yet .Professor B: OK so that should be pretty easy to do and that would be good{disfmarker}PhD C: No . Mmm yeah , yeah .Professor B: then we could compare the two and say what was better .PhD C: Mmm . Yeah .Professor B: Um and howdoes this compare to the numbers {disfmarker} oh so OGI two is just the top {disfmarker} top row ?PhD D: Yeah .PhD C: So yeah to {disfmarker} actually OGItwo is the {disfmarker} the baseline with the OGI features but this is not exactly the result that they have because they 've {disfmarker} they 're still made somechanges in the featuresProfessor B: OK .PhD C: and {disfmarker} well but uh actually our results are better than their results . Um I don't know by how muchbecause they did not send us the new resultsProfessor B: OK .PhD C: UhProfessor B: Uh OK so the one {disfmarker} one place where it looks like we 're messingthings up a bit is in the highly mismatched Italian .PhD C: Yeah . Yeah .Professor B: AnPhD C: Yeah there is something funny happening here because{disfmarker} yeah .Professor B: Yeah .PhD C: But there are thirty - six and then sometimes we are {disfmarker} we are {disfmarker} we are around forty - twoandProfessor B: Now upPhD C: butProfessor B: Uh so one of the ideas that you had mentioned last time was having a {disfmarker} a second um silence detection.PhD C: Yeah . So there are some results herePhD D: For the Italian .PhD C: uh so the third and the fifth line of the tablePhD D: For this one .Professor B: So filtis what that is ?PhD C: Filt , yeahPhD D: Yeah .PhD C: Um yeah so it seems f for the {disfmarker} the well match and mismatched condition it 's uh it bringssomething . Uh but uh actually apparently there are {disfmarker} there 's no room left for any silence detector at the server side because of the delay . UhwellProfessor B: Oh we can't do it . Oh OK .PhD C: No .PhD D: For that {disfmarker} for that we {disfmarker}Professor B: Oh .PhD C: UhProfessor B: Too bad .Good idea , but can't do it .PhD C: Yeah .Professor B: OK .PhD C: Except I don't know because they {disfmarker} I think they are still working well .Professor B:Uh - huh .PhD C: Uh t two days ago they were still working on this trying to reduce the delay of the silence detector so but yeah if we had time perhaps we couldtry to find uh some kind of compromise between the delay that 's on the handset and on the server side . Perhaps try to reduce the delay on the handset and{disfmarker} but well hmm For the moment they have this large delay on the {disfmarker} the feature computation and so we don'tProfessor B: OK . So Alrightso for now at least that 's not there you have some results with low - pass filter cepstrum doesn't have a huge effect but it {disfmarker} but it looks like it youknow maybe could help in a couple places .PhD C: I thProfessor B: Uh little bit .PhD C: Yeah .Professor B: Um and um um Yeah and uh let 's see What else did wehave in there ? Uh I guess it makes a l um at this point this is I {disfmarker} I guess I should probably look at these others a little bit uh And you {disfmarker}you yellowed these out uh but uh uh Oh I see yeah that {disfmarker} that one you can't use because of the delay . Those look pretty good . Um let 's see thatone Well even the {disfmarker} just the {disfmarker} the second row doesn't look that bad right ? That 's just uh yeah ?PhD C: Yep .Professor B: And{disfmarker} and that looks like an interesting one too .PhD D: Mmm yeah .Professor B: UhPhD C: Actually the {disfmarker} yeah the second line is uh prettymuch like the first line in yellow except that we don't have this KLT on the first {disfmarker} on the left part of the diagram . We just have the features as theyare .Professor B: Mm - hmm .PhD C: UmProfessor B: Yeah . Yeah so when we do this weighted measure we should compare the two cuz it might even come outbetter . And it 's {disfmarker} it 's {disfmarker} it 's a little {disfmarker} slightly simpler .PhD C: Mm - hmm . Yeah .Professor B: So {disfmarker} so there 's{disfmarker} so I {disfmarker} I would put that one also as a {disfmarker} as a maybe . Uh and it {disfmarker} yeah and it 's actually {vocalsound} does{disfmarker} does significantly better on the uh uh highly mismatched Italian , so s and little worse on the mis on the MM case , but uh Well yeah it 's worse thana few thingsPhD C: Mm - hmm .Professor B: so uh let 's see how that c that c c see how that comes out on their {disfmarker} their measure and {disfmarker}are {disfmarker} are we running this uh for TI - digits or uhPhD C: Yeah .Professor B: Now is TI di {disfmarker} is is that part of the result that they get for theuh development {disfmarker} th the results that they 're supposed to get at the end of {disfmarker} end of the month , the TI - digits are there also ?PhD C:Yeah . Yeah . It 's included , yeah .Professor B: Oh OK . OK . And see what else there is here . Um Oh I see {disfmarker} the one {disfmarker} I was lookingdown here at the {disfmarker} the o the row below the lower yellowed one . Uh that 's uh that 's with the reduced uh KLT size {disfmarker} reduceddimensionality .PhD C: Mm - hmm ? Yeah . Yeah .Professor B: What happens there is it 's around the same and so you could reduce the dimension as you weresaying before a bit perhaps .PhD C: Yeah , it 's {disfmarker} it 's significantly worse well but {disfmarker} Mm - hmm .Professor B: It 's significantly worse{disfmarker} it 's {disfmarker} it 's uh it 's {disfmarker} it 's mostly worse .PhD C: Exc - except for the HMPhD D: For many a mismatch it 's worse .PhD C:butProfessor B: Yeah . But it is little . I mean not {disfmarker} not by a huge amount , I don't know . What are {disfmarker} what are the sizes of any of thesesets , I {disfmarker} I 'm {disfmarker} I 'm sure you told me before , but I 've forgotten . So {disfmarker} you know how many words are in uh one of these testsets ?PhD C: UhPhD D: I don't remember .Professor B: About ?PhD C: Um it 's {disfmarker} it depends {disfmarker} well {disfmarker} the well matched isgenerally larger than the other sets and I think it 's around two thousand or three thousand words perhaps , at least .PhD D: Ye But words {disfmarker} well word{disfmarker} I don't know .PhD C: Hmm ? The words , yeah . S sentences .PhD D: Sentences .PhD C: Some sets have five hundred sentences , so .PhD D: Yeah.Professor B: So the {disfmarker} so the sets {disfmarker} so the test sets are between five hundred and two thousand sentences , let 's sayPhD C: Mmm.Professor B: and each sentence on the average has four or five digits or is it {disfmarker} most of them longer orPhD C: Yeah .PhD D: Yeah for the Italian evenseven digits y more or lessPhD C: It {disfmarker} it d Seven digits .PhD D: but sometime the sentence have only one digit and sometime uh like uh the numberof uh credit cards , something like that .Professor B: Mm - hmm . Right , so between one and sixteen . See the {disfmarker} I mean the reason I 'm asking is{disfmarker} is {disfmarker} is we have all these small differences and I don't know how seriously to take them , right ?PhD C: Mm - hmm ?Professor B: So uh iif {disfmarker} if you had uh just you know {disfmarker} to give an example , if you had uh um if you had a thousand words then uh a {disfmarker} a tenth of apercent would just be one word ,PhD C: Yeah .Professor B: right ? So {disfmarker} so it wouldn't mean anything .PhD D: Yeah .Professor B: OhPhD C: Yeah.Professor B: um so um yeah it be kind of {disfmarker} I 'd kind of like to know what the sizes of these test sets were actually .PhD C: Yeah .PhD D: The size thatwe have ?PhD C: We could {disfmarker} we could run {disfmarker} run some kind of significance testsProfessor B: Yeah since these {disfmarker} well also just


Project Manager: Okay . Uh good afternoon . This is our third meeting already .Marketing: Good afternoon .Project Manager: I hope you enjoyed your lunch .{vocalsound} I did anyway . {vocalsound} Um let's see . Presentation three . Okay this is um the second phase uh we're going to discuss today . It's theconceptual design meeting . And a few points of interest in this meeting um are the conceptual specification of components . Uh conceptual specification of design. And also trend-watching . Um these are hopefully the points you addressed in uh your pre uh presentations you're going to show me in a few minutes . Um butfirst I'll show you the agenda . Uh first the opening . Then we have three presentations . Uh after that we have to come to a decision on remote control concepts .How we're going to make it . And then we're closing . We have about forty minutes . Uh so I suggest let's get started . Uh did someone encounter any problemsduring the preparation ? No ?User Interface: No .Project Manager: Everything fine ?Marketing: {gap}Project Manager: That's nice . Then a little uh thing aboutthe last meeting . Uh these are the points um we agreed on . The requirements and the target market . Uh requirements are uh teletext , docking station , audiosignal , small screen , with some extras that uh button information . And we are going to use default materials . Um does somebody have any comments on theserequirements ? Maybe ? No ? These are just the the things we thought of , so maybe if you figured something else or thought of something else , just let me know. And maybe we can uh work it out . And we're going to target uh sixty to to eighty year old customers . So now everybody knows what we're do we're doing , umI suggest let's get started with the presentations . So shall we keep the same uh line-up as uh last time ?Marketing: Sure .Project Manager: Okay .Marketing: I'llstart off then .Project Manager: Good luck . {vocalsound}Marketing: Doh . 'Kay I'm uh gonna inform you about the trend-watching I've done over the past fewdays . Um we've done some market research . We distributed some more enquetes , questionnaires . And um besides that um I deployed some trend-watchers toMilan and Paris to well get all of the newest trends . And I've consulted some additional trend-watch trend-watchers , after the original trend-watchers return ,about what the the best design would be . Um okay these are some overall findings . Um most important thing is the fancy design . Um the research indicatedthat that was by far the most important factor . Um innovativeness was about half as important as the fancy design . By innovativeness this means um functionswhich are not featured in other remote controls . Um about half of , half as important as the innovativeness was the was easy to use . Um for our um group ,we're focusing on the people of sixty to eighty y years old , this is um , these factors are slightly more equal . 'Kay these are some more group specific findings .Uh the older people prefer dark colours . Uh they like recognisable shapes , and familiar material . And our surveys have indicated that especially wood is prettymuch the material for older people . Um this is , this image will give you a little bit of an impression about um the look-and-feel that um the remote should have .Um this leads us to some personal preferences . Uh the remote control and the docking station should uh blend in in the in the room . Um so this would mean nouh eye-catching designs . Just keep it simple and {disfmarker} Well the docking station and small screen would be our main points of interest , because thiswould be the {disfmarker} These would uh be the innovativeness in the remote control . So this would be very important that we {vocalsound} at least includethese features . Um well the trend-watchers I consulted advised that it b should be , the remote control and the docking station should be telephone-shaped . Soyou could imagine that uh the remote control will be standing up straight in the docking station . This is not really {disfmarker} This is pretty much a new shapeto uh older people . So they would prefer uh a design where the remote control just lies flat in the docking station . So it would be kinda more telephone-shaped .Um besides that we would advise um to bring two editions , one with a wood-like colour and maybe feel , and one with a grey-black colour . The wood-like for themore uh exclusive people . People with more money . Uh the grey-black colour for well people with less means . That would be all .Project Manager: Okay . Thankyou . Any questions about the the trends ?Marketing: Any questions ?Project Manager: MaybUser Interface: Mm no .Project Manager: No ? Okay , we go on to thenext one .User Interface: {gap}Project Manager: {vocalsound}User Interface: Um {vocalsound} 'kay um yeah . {gap} uh some uh research uh a about umdesigning of an interface . Um the uh last meeting uh we had a about um uh using a f few buttons . So uh um uh that's w what I what I want to uh uh to do in uhour design . So um finding an attractive uh way to control uh the remote control . Um the uh {disfmarker} I found some uh something about uh speech uhrecognition . So maybe uh we can uh use uh that . Um {disfmarker} Uh and uh using a little uh display . So um findings . Um yeah just um we have just to focuson the primary um functions . So uh only uh buttons uh for uh sound , um for uh on-off , um uh shifting u up uh sa uh ca channel or uh down shifting down . Umuh let's see . Um yeah and {disfmarker} Uh {gap} we uh need some uh new a attractive functions uh uh which attract uh uh people for using it . So uh it's uh likea speak uh speech uh recognition and um a special button for selecting uh subtitles . Just uh what we uh mentioned uh last uh meeting . Um and yeah overall umuser-friendly . So uh using uh large large buttons . Um {disfmarker} It's uh possible to uh uh to make um quite cheap uh system for uh speech uh recognition .Um you can think about um uh when you lost your um remote control , you can uh call it and um it gives an um sig signal . So uh uh yeah . And and uh for uhshifting up a sen uh c ch channel or uh for um uh putting out uh sound or something , you can uh just give a sign uh say um sound off or {disfmarker} A and uhyeah . Television uh put the sound off uh put the sound off uh . Um {disfmarker} Let's see . Uh yeah . I was thinking about the special uh button for uh subtitles ,um just one button to keep it uh simple . Uh one push on the button uh you get uh uh small uh subtitles . Um double push push um , if double click , um so uhyou get uh big uh subtitles , for uh people uh um uh which c f uh who can't uh read small uh subtitles . So uh {disfmarker} Um {disfmarker} Yeah and w we haveto keep uh in general buttons uh so um we've got um the buttons we have to use . The on-off , sound on-off , sound higher or lower , um the numbers , uh zeroto uh uh nine . Um the general buttons m more general b one button for shifting up and shifting down uh channel . Um also we want to uh use a little d display uhfor um for displaying the uh the functions of the buttons . And um we can uh build in a function f which uh shows the channel or some uh which the t television ison . So um made a little uh picture of uh it . Um {disfmarker} See . Um yeah . Just um we can put uh the on-off button uh over in this uh corner , um almost uh eall uh remote controls uh are using a on-off button on that place . Um so uh people uh will uh recognise uh um the button .Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}UserInterface: So um {disfmarker} D display uh of it , it's uh just a small display . Uh um you can put it uh on top . Um it's uh most uh uh place where people uh ,most of {gap} looks at . So uh um and a special uh button for shifting up uh and uh shifting down uh channel , um it's uh on place where um the thumb of of the{disfmarker} So you you can uh easily uh shift up or shift down . Um it's uh quite uh handy place . So um and uh all the f functions for subtitle uh one button , uhfor sound uh {disfmarker} Uh and uh for our design , um uh we have to discuss about it uh I think uh so uh the form of it so {disfmarker}Project Manager: Okay.User Interface: And that's it .Project Manager: Uh thank you . {vocalsound}Industrial Designer: Okay . About the components design . Um for the energy sourcewe can use a basic battery or , a as an optional thing , a kinetic energy , like in a watch , which you just shake and it produces energy . But if we choose for thatoption , the docking station would c become obsolete . So I don't think it's really an option . Uh for the casing , uh the uh manufacturing department can deliveruh a flat casing , single or double curved casing . It's really up the the design that we're gonna use . It's uh doesn't uh imply any technical restrictions . Uh as acase supplement , we could um , I thought of that l later , uh a rubber uh belt , like a anti-slip . Uh for the b buttons , we can use plastic or rubber . And thechip-set , um it says simple here , but it should be advanced , because we're using an L_C_D_ uh screen . And as uh the trend-watcher presentation showed , umpeople like wood , but it raises the price and it doesn't really fit the image , unless we would start two product lines . Form should follow function overall . Um wellthe kinetic energy source is rather fancy . But depends on what we want . I think we should disc discuss that . Um for the case , uh the supplement and thebuttons , it really depends on the designer . And the chip-set uh really should be advanced because otherwise uh it would really be a simple uh remote control .And that's it .Project Manager: Okay . Thank you . So that brings us to the discussion about our concepts . Mm .Marketing: {vocalsound}Project Manager: 'Kay .So these are the points we have to discuss . Um first I think we can talk about the energy source , since that's um has a pretty big influence on production price ,uh and image .User Interface: {gap}Project Manager: Uh so uh f I think first of all we have to see uh it is possible to introduce kinetic energy in our budget , Ithink .Industrial Designer: Yes w there there are four options . We could use the basic normal battery .Project Manager: Yeah .Industrial Designer: Uh a handdynamo .Project Manager: {vocalsound} Okay {gap} . {vocalsound}Industrial Designer: But I don't think that's {vocalsound} really an option .User Interface:{vocalsound}Industrial Designer: You don't wanna swing before you can watch television .Marketing: {vocalsound}Project Manager: {vocalsound} Yeah.Industrial Designer: Uh solar cells . But not every room is very lightUser Interface: Mm .Industrial Designer: so it's not a very good option .Project Manager: No.Industrial Designer: Or the kinetic energy .Project Manager: Yeah . Okay .Marketing: And how exactly does the kinetic energy work ?Industrial Designer: Well yyou basically shake your remote , and then it powers up .Marketing: You just {disfmarker} You use it and it works .User Interface: {vocalsound}IndustrialDesigner: Yeah .Project Manager: Yeah .User Interface: Nah .Marketing: Okay . Well personally I don't think that older people like to shake their remote controlbefore they use it .User Interface: {vocalsound}Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Yeah . That's true .Marketing: And besides that you mentioned it would makethe docking station obsolete .Industrial Designer: Oh .Marketing: And I think our docking station could be one of the marketing issues with which we can um get


PhD A: OK , we 're going .PhD D: Damn .Professor C: And uh Hans - uh , Hans - Guenter will be here , um , I think by next {disfmarker} next Tuesday or so .PhDB: Oh , OK .PhD D: Mm - hmm .Professor C: So he 's {disfmarker} he 's going to be here for about three weeks ,PhD B: Oh ! That 's nice .PhD A: Just for a visit?Professor C: and , uh {disfmarker} Uh , we 'll see .PhD A: Huh .Professor C: We might {disfmarker} might end up with some longer collaboration or something.PhD A: Cool .Professor C: So he 's gonna look in on everything we 're doingPhD D: Mm - hmm .Professor C: and give us his {disfmarker} his thoughts . And so it'll be another {disfmarker} another good person looking at things .PhD B: Oh . Hmm .Grad E: Th - that 's his spectral subtraction group ?Professor C: Yeah ,GradE: Is that right ?Professor C: yeah .Grad E: Oh , OK . So I guess I should probably talk to him a bit too ?Professor C: Oh , yeah . Yeah . Yeah . No , he 'll bearound for three weeks . He 's , uh , um , very , very , easygoing , easy to talk to , and , uh , very interested in everything .PhD A: Really nice guy .Professor C:Yeah , yeah .PhD B: Yeah , we met him in Amsterdam .Professor C: Yeah , yeah , he 's been here before .PhD B: Oh , OK .Professor C: I mean , he 's{disfmarker} he 's {disfmarker} he 's {disfmarker} he 's {disfmarker}PhD A: Wh - Back when I was a grad student he was here for a , uh , uh {disfmarker} ayear or {comment} n six months .PhD B: I haven't noticed him .Professor C: N nine months .PhD A: Something like that .Professor C: Something like that .PhDA: Yeah .Professor C: Yeah . Yeah . He 's {disfmarker} he 's done a couple stays here .PhD B: Hmm .Professor C: Yeah .PhD A: So , um , {vocalsound}{comment} I guess we got lots to catch up on . And we haven't met for a couple of weeks . We didn't meet last week , Morgan . Um , I went around and talked toeverybody , and it seemed like they {disfmarker} they had some new results but rather than them coming up and telling me I figured we should just wait a weekand they can tell both {disfmarker} you know , all of us . So , um , why don't we {disfmarker} why don't we start with you , Dave , and then , um , we can go on.Grad E: Oh , OK .PhD A: So .Grad E: So , um , since we 're looking at putting this , um {disfmarker} mean log m magnitude spectral subtraction , um , into theSmartKom system , I I did a test seeing if , um , it would work using past only {comment} and plus the present to calculate the mean . So , I did a test , um ,{vocalsound} where I used twelve seconds from the past and the present frame to , um , calculate the mean . And {disfmarker}PhD A: Twelve seconds{disfmarker} Twelve {disfmarker} twelve seconds back from the current {pause} frame , is that what you mean ?Grad E: Uh {disfmarker} Twelve seconds , um ,counting back from the end of the current frame ,PhD A: OK , OK .Grad E: yeah . So it was , um , twen I think it was twenty - one frames and that worked out toabout twelve seconds .PhD A: Mm - hmm .Grad E: And compared to , um , do using a twelve second centered window , I think there was a drop in performancebut it was just a slight drop .PhD A: Hmm !Professor C: Mm - hmm .Grad E: Is {disfmarker} is that right ?Professor C: Um , yeah , I mean , it was pretty{disfmarker} it was pretty tiny . Yeah .Grad E: Uh - huh . So that was encouraging . And , um , that {disfmarker} that {disfmarker} um , that 's encouraging for{disfmarker} for the idea of using it in an interactive system like And , um , another issue I 'm {disfmarker} I 'm thinking about is in the SmartKom system . Sosay twe twelve seconds in the earlier test seemed like a good length of time , but what happens if you have less than twelve seconds ? And , um {disfmarker} SoI w bef before , um {disfmarker} Back in May , I did some experiments using , say , two seconds , or four seconds , or six seconds . In those I trained the modelsusing mean subtraction with the means calculated over two seconds , or four seconds , or six seconds . And , um , here , I was curious , what if I trained themodels using twelve seconds but I f I gave it a situation where the test set I was {disfmarker} subtracted using two seconds , or four seconds , or six seconds .And , um {disfmarker} So I did that for about three different conditions . And , um {disfmarker} I mean , I th I think it was , um , four se I think {disfmarker} Ithink it was , um , something like four seconds and , um , six seconds , and eight seconds . Something like that . And it seems like it {disfmarker} it {disfmarker}it hurts compared to if you actually train the models {comment} using th that same length of time but it {disfmarker} it doesn't hurt that much . Um , u usuallyless than point five percent , although I think I did see one where it was a point eight percent or so rise in word error rate . But this is , um , w where , um , evenif I train on the , uh , model , and mean subtracted it with the same length of time as in the test , it {disfmarker} the word error rate is around , um , ten percentor nine percent . So it doesn't seem like that big a d a difference .Professor C: But it {disfmarker} but looking at it the other way , isn't it {disfmarker} what you're saying that it didn't help you to have the longer time for training , if you were going to have a short time for {disfmarker}Grad E: That {disfmarker} that 'strue . Um ,Professor C: I mean , why would you do it , if you knew that you were going to have short windows in testing .Grad E: WaPhD A: Yeah , it seems likefor your {disfmarker} I mean , in normal situations you would never get twelve seconds of speech , right ? I 'm not {disfmarker} e uPhD B: You need twelveseconds in the past to estimate , right ? Or l or you 're looking at six sec {disfmarker} seconds in future and six in {disfmarker}Professor C: Yeah .Grad E: Um , ttwelve sProfessor C: No , total .Grad E: N n uh {disfmarker} For the test it 's just twelve seconds in the past .PhD B: No , it 's all {disfmarker} Oh , OK .PhD A: Isthis twelve seconds of {disfmarker} uh , regardless of speech or silence ? Or twelve seconds of speech ?Grad E: Of {disfmarker} of speech .PhD A: OK .PhD B:Mm - hmm .Professor C: The other thing , um , which maybe relates a little bit to something else we 've talked about in terms of windowing and so on is , that ,um , I wonder if you trained with twelve seconds , and then when you were two seconds in you used two seconds , and when you were four seconds in , you usedfour seconds , and when you were six {disfmarker} and you basically build up to the twelve seconds . So that if you have very long utterances you have the best,Grad E: Yeah .Professor C: but if you have shorter utterances you use what you can .Grad E: Right . And that 's actually what we 're planning to do inProfessorC: OK . Yeah .Grad E: But {disfmarker} s so I g So I guess the que the question I was trying to get at with those experiments is , " does it matter what modelsyou use ? Does it matter how much time y you use to calculate the mean when you were , um , tra doing the training data ? "Professor C: Right . But I mean theother thing is that that 's {disfmarker} I mean , the other way of looking at this , going back to , uh , mean cepstral subtraction versus RASTA kind of things , isthat you could look at mean cepstral subtraction , especially the way you 're doing it , uh , as being a kind of filter . And so , the other thing is just to design afilter . You know , basically you 're {disfmarker} you 're {disfmarker} you 're doing a high - pass filter or a band - pass filter of some sort and {disfmarker} andjust design a filter . And then , you know , a filter will have a certain behavior and you loo can look at the start up behavior when you start up with nothing .GradE: Mm - hmm .Professor C: And {disfmarker} and , you know , it will , uh , if you have an IIR filter for instance , it will , um , uh , not behave in the steady - stateway that you would like it to behave until you get a long enough period , but , um , uh , by just constraining yourself to have your filter be only a subtraction ofthe mean , you 're kind of , you know , tying your hands behind your back because there 's {disfmarker} filters have all sorts of be temporal and spectralbehaviors .Grad E: Mm - hmm .Professor C: And the only thing , you know , consistent that we know about is that you want to get rid of the very low frequencycomponent .Grad E: Hmm .PhD B: But do you really want to calculate the mean ? And you neglect all the silence regions {comment} or you just use everythingthat 's twelve seconds , and {disfmarker}Grad E: Um , you {disfmarker} do you mean in my tests so far ?PhD B: Ye - yeah .Grad E: Most of the silence has beencut out .PhD B: OK .Grad E: Just {disfmarker} There 's just inter - word silences .PhD B: Mm - hmm . And they are , like , pretty short . ShorGrad E: Pretty short.PhD B: Yeah , OK .Grad E: Yeah .PhD B: Yeah . Mm - hmm . So you really need a lot of speech to estimate the mean of it .Grad E: Well , if I only use six seconds, it still works pretty well .PhD B: Yeah . Yeah . Uh - huh .Grad E: I saw in my test before . I was trying twelve seconds cuz that was the best {pause} in my testbeforePhD B: OK .Grad E: and that increasing past twelve seconds didn't seem to help .PhD B: Hmm . Huh .Grad E: th um , yeah , I guess it 's something I needto play with more to decide how to set that up for the SmartKom system . Like , may maybe if I trained on six seconds it would work better when I only had twoseconds or four seconds , and {disfmarker}Professor C: Yeah . Yeah . And , um {disfmarker}Grad E: OK .Professor C: Yeah , and again , if you take this filteringperspective and if you essentially have it build up over time . I mean , if you computed means over two and then over four , and over six , essentially what you 'regetting at is a kind of , uh , ramp up of a filter anyway . And so you may {disfmarker} may just want to think of it as a filter . But , uh , if you do that , then , um, in practice somebody using the SmartKom system , one would think {comment} {disfmarker} if they 're using it for a while , it means that their first utterance ,instead of , you know , getting , uh , a forty percent error rate reduction , they 'll get a {disfmarker} uh , over what , uh , you 'd get without this , uh , um , policy, uh , you get thirty percent . And then the second utterance that you give , they get the full {disfmarker} you know , uh , full benefit of it if it 's this ongoingthing .PhD A: Oh , so you {disfmarker} you cache the utterances ? That 's how you get your , uh {disfmarker}Professor C: Well , I 'm saying in practice , yeah,Grad E: MPhD A: Ah . OK .Professor C: that 's {disfmarker} If somebody 's using a system to ask for directions or something ,PhD A: OK .Professor C: you know, they 'll say something first . And {disfmarker} and to begin with if it doesn't get them quite right , ma m maybe they 'll come back and say , " excuse me ? "PhDA: Mm - hmm .Professor C: uh , or some {disfmarker} I mean it should have some policy like that anyway .PhD A: Mm - hmm .Professor C: And {disfmarker}and , uh , uh , in any event they might ask a second question . And it 's not like what he 's doing doesn't , uh , improve things . It does improve things , just notas much as he would like . And so , uh , there 's a higher probability of it making an error , uh , in the first utterance .PhD A: What would be really cool is if youcould have {disfmarker} uh , this probably {disfmarker} users would never like this {disfmarker} but if you had {disfmarker} could have a system where ,


Project Manager: Um we are {disfmarker} So the meeting will have about the same format as the last time . So {gap} switching over I've just left uh my first twoscreens {gap} .User Interface: Mm-hmm .Project Manager: Um {vocalsound} mailed you the minutes of the last meeting uh just to save time .User Interface:Okay . Cool .Project Manager: {vocalsound} Um and is there any questions you have that arised from last meeting that are particularly bothering you ? NUserInterface: Mm um . No , I don't think so .Project Manager: No ? Okay , cool .Industrial Designer: No .Project Manager: Then we shall start with a presentationfrom Raj .Marketing: Yeah . {vocalsound} Hi , me Raj , again . Uh in this meeting I I'm going to discuss about the trend watching , uh how these trends is goingto affect our market potential and how important is this . So we have to look on this . First of all methodology . The met methodology to find out the trend wasincl uh was done in a way {disfmarker} {vocalsound} We have done a rec not only a recent remote control market survey , but we also considered the latest frefashion trends of the market , because we think that this is also a factor which will affect our sales and profit . So what are our findings ? In our {vocalsound} uhin our findings we have seen that {disfmarker} when we did our remote control market survey we found that uh people l uh people do have preference for thofancy mobi uh f remote controls which look and feel very good , rather than having a functional look and feel uh good . So this sh this clearly indicates theirpreference for the design their outlook of the remote controls . So we should take into uh we should consider this factor as the most important factor , becausethis factor is twice as important , the second factor which is further ti twice the as important as the sec as uh the third factor . So this factor becomes the mostimportant factor in our surv uh uh in our mark uh means in take {disfmarker} in designing our rem uh remote controls .User Interface: The last one is the mostimportant one , is it ?Marketing: No the first one is theUser Interface: Oh , sorry .Marketing: uh the outlook of the mobile , the it should have a fancy outlook,Project Manager: {gap}User Interface: Okay .Marketing: the fancy design uh rather than just having a functional look and feel good , it should have a fancy lookand foo feel good .User Interface: Okay .Marketing: The second most important aspect is that remote control should be a technologically uh innovative . We musthave some technological advancement in the remote control tha rather than just putting it as it is as the other remo uh remote controls are . So it uh should betechnologically innovative like glow-in-the-dark or speech recognition , something like that .Project Manager: {vocalsound}Marketing: So that indicates ourtechnological advancement . And the third most important aspect in the ta to take into consideration is that it should be easy to use ,User Interface: Mm-hmm.Marketing: like it shouldn't be too much co complicated ,User Interface: Mm-hmm .Marketing: there shouldn't be too many buttons on this mobi uh remotecontrol , it shouldn't be too complicated uh like this way . And it should be uh {disfmarker} and customers should be provided with manuals that is easy tounderstand in their local language , something . So that they could know how to use these remote controls . When we did uh f fashions uh , recent fashion uh{disfmarker} our recent fashion update shows that {disfmarker}User Interface: {vocalsound} Sorry .Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}Marketing: Ah yeah ?{vocalsound}User Interface: I was just reading fruit and vegetables .Project Manager: {vocalsound}User Interface: Hard to know how we are going toincorporate that . {vocalsound}Marketing: Y yeah uh yeah , we have to , because uh d you can see how people have related their clothes , shoes , {gap} andeverything with fruits and vegetables ,Project Manager: {gap}User Interface: {vocalsound}Marketing: because the g world is now changing it's trend towardsorganic , becoming more and more organic ,User Interface: Okay . Yeah .Industrial Designer: We should make a big sponge lemon ,Marketing: becoming{disfmarker} {vocalsound}Industrial Designer: and then it'd be it would be yellow .Marketing: Yeah . {vocalsound}Project Manager: {vocalsound}User Interface:Yeah .Industrial Designer: It's {disfmarker}Marketing: So {disfmarker} {vocalsound}User Interface: Th that's very good .Industrial Designer: Yeah .Marketing:Yeah . So something like that we we should do .User Interface: Glow-in-the-dark . Okay .Marketing: And people uh the f feel of the material is expected to bespongy rather than just having a plastic look , hard look .Industrial Designer: Mm . {vocalsound}User Interface: Well , that's good .Marketing: {vocalsound} Yeah. Yeah .User Interface: That's what we kind of predicted anyway .Marketing: So so that they could play with it while handi uh while handling it . So that shouldalso be taken into consideration .User Interface: Okay . Okay .Marketing: So these are my views .User Interface: Okay .Marketing: So {disfmarker}UserInterface: Okay , the spongy , not real spongy , you can {vocalsound} {disfmarker}Marketing: No it ca {vocalsound} y a {gap} {disfmarker}User Interface: Doyou think like rubber would be good or does it really want to be like gel kind of stuff ?Marketing: The rubber which is good for health and which is quite disposablethat we can take into coUser Interface: Okay . Quite disposable .Marketing: Yeah . 'Cause we It shouldn't be have any harm to the environment also ,UserInterface: Okay .Marketing: because our company is very well {gap} for taking all these concerns into consideration ,Project Manager: Alright , okay .UserInterface: Oh okay .Marketing: so we don't want to have any harm to the society ,User Interface: Uh-huh . Okay .Marketing: so {disfmarker}Project Manager:Fashion .User Interface: {vocalsound}Project Manager: {vocalsound} Mm 'kay .User Interface: Cool .Marketing: So that's all . {vocalsound}Project Manager:Fruit and veg , well there you go .User Interface: {vocalsound}Project Manager: Just what I think of when I think of a remote control . {vocalsound}{vocalsound}User Interface: Mm .Industrial Designer: {gap}User Interface: A remote control ? Yeah .Marketing: {vocalsound} {gap}User Interface: And werethere any factors that weren't important in the survey , that they said we don't want ?Marketing: S uh we didn't find out any such point .User Interface: Or was itjust {disfmarker} Okay . {vocalsound}Marketing: Uh yes , there could be , but we couldn't find out any , so {disfmarker}Project Manager: Mm-mm-mm-mm.User Interface: Cool .Project Manager: Mm-mm-mm-mm-mm .User Interface: F_ , what is it ? Um .Project Manager: Function F_ eight .User Interface: {gap}yeah .Project Manager: Hmm .User Interface: Okay .Industrial Designer: {gap}Marketing: Yeah . {gap}Project Manager: {gap}Marketing: Oh no , {vocalsound}{gap} .User Interface: No signal . Is that {gap} ?Industrial Designer: No , it's got it's got it .Marketing: Yeah , uh yeah , uh yeah .Industrial Designer:{gap}Marketing: {gap} Yeah . {vocalsound}Project Manager: {vocalsound} Excuse me .User Interface: Okay , and then F_ five , right ?Project Manager: Uh ,yeah {gap} .User Interface: Okay . Um okay , so the interface concept um . Yeah . The interface specification , what people {disfmarker} um how they interactwith it basically , I think . Um so the method , we looked at existing designs , what are the {disfmarker} what's good about them , what's bad about them , um Ilooked at their flaws , so we're going to look at their flaws , everything . Um and what {vocalsound} the survey told us and what we think would be good , so a bitof imagination .Project Manager: Mm 'kay .User Interface: {vocalsound} Uh the findings , I've got some pictures to show you as well .Project Manager:{vocalsound} {gap} either . {vocalsound}Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}Marketing: Hmm .User Interface: {vocalsound} Yeah . {vocalsound} Okay , so mostremote controls use graphical interface , where you um have got s buttons and you point it rather than having the output as a a stream of text or something.Project Manager: Uh okay .User Interface: Um and we also found that there's inconsistent layout , which makes it confusing . So I think for our remote control{disfmarker} There is some inconsistency already in {disfmarker} ec existing in {disfmarker} between remote controls , but I think standard kind of um shapeand uh play and those kind of but buttons like the the top right for on and off or something ,Project Manager: Right , okay . Yeah .User Interface: I think , peoplefind that important,'cause then it's easy to use .Project Manager: {vocalsound}User Interface: And we've got some pictures of some uh new remote controls toshow you .Project Manager: Excellent .User Interface: Do I press Escape F_ five ? Or just {disfmarker}Project Manager: Uh no just escape should uh{disfmarker}User Interface: Escape , okay . Um , oh I still haven't got my glasses on . Yeah , okay . So these are the {disfmarker} some of the pictures ofexisting ones .Project Manager: {vocalsound}Industrial Designer: Wow .User Interface: I'll just walk you through them . This one is a voice recognition .ProjectManager: 'Kay .User Interface: And that's the kind of idea we're going for .Project Manager: Looks pretty complicated .User Interface: There's um an L_C_D_thing , which we thought could {disfmarker} I thought could get a bit confusing and a bit expensive as well for us .Project Manager: Right , okay .User Interface:This one is {disfmarker} got a kind of scroll like a mouse ,Project Manager: Mm-hmm , like the middle button .User Interface: which {disfmarker} Yeah .ProjectManager: Okay .User Interface: Um and {disfmarker} But I'm not exactly sure how you'd use that ,Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}Project Manager: Ah it'skinda like scrolling {disfmarker}User Interface: like would the computer come {disfmarker}Project Manager: uh right , well , if I s if I'm thinking of the right one ,I've got the same thing in front of my monitor , you scroll it and the when you reach the sort of um {vocalsound} menu item that you require , you press themiddle of the scroll .User Interface: Uh-huh , that's like the L_C_D_ one ,Project Manager: Right , okay .User Interface: is it ? But the one below that has got like{vocalsound} a little scroll function on the side . But I presume that the functions must come up on the T_V_ screen .Marketing: {vocalsound} Yeah .ProjectManager: Yeah , presumably .User Interface: I think that's what that is . So these are just a few ideas . Again that's just quite boring shape , grey , looks quitespace-agey , but too many buttons , I think on that one .Industrial Designer: Uh it looks threatening .Project Manager: Yeah , looks like uh looks like somethingout of a jet . {vocalsound}User Interface: Yeah , it does look kind of dangerous .Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} It looks like yeah {gap} .Marketing: Hmm.User Interface: Um this one I thought was really cool . It's w it's got the programmability function that we talked about .Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}UserInterface: You can put it in there , it's for your kids , and it's quite an organic shape and the little circle around there is pretty cool .Project Manager: Okay .User


Project Manager: Okay . Uh first of all I'll start with the costs ,Marketing: {gap} .Project Manager: because that's going to influence our design .User Interface:{vocalsound} Oh no .Marketing: Oh , {gap} . {vocalsound}Project Manager: If you {disfmarker} Don't know if you al already had a look or not ?User Interface:No n I I already did it .Industrial Designer: Did you do your questionnaire already ?Marketing: No .User Interface: It's not much . It's just one question .ProjectManager: Because we have a problem .Industrial Designer: Uh {disfmarker}Marketing: Oh . {vocalsound}Project Manager: If you look closely , you can see .UserInterface: Yeah .Industrial Designer: It wants {disfmarker}Project Manager: Um I already took the liberty to make some suggestions . {gap} . {gap} .{vocalsound} At the moment we have fifteen buttons , one L_C_D_ screen , one advanced chip-on-print . We use a uh sensor , that's for the speech . Uh we usekinetic energy . And we wanted uh the buttons in a special colour . Okay . What's the first thing we should drop ? The special colour of the buttons ?UserInterface: No that's that's for the trendy uh feel and look . So {disfmarker}Project Manager: Okay . Uh {disfmarker}Industrial Designer: Yeah but everything is.Project Manager: Should we switch to a hand dynamo ?User Interface: {vocalsound}Project Manager: Uh that's the still the same idea as the kinetic energybecause you have to use it and do things .Marketing: No .User Interface: Yeah , b but {disfmarker}Marketing: Yeah but young people like that .Project Manager:Batteries ?Marketing: So just do normal battery .Project Manager: Batteries .User Interface: I think the battery option .Industrial Designer: Just a normal batterythen , yeah .Marketing: Yeah .Project Manager: {gap} .Marketing: It has to be twelve and a half .Project Manager: Yeah .Marketing: Or not ? {vocalsound}UserInterface: Oh . {vocalsound}Project Manager: So {disfmarker}Industrial Designer: Oh my goodness .Project Manager: You're going to redesign something.Marketing: {vocalsound}User Interface: Oh no .Project Manager: Okay , so we're at twenty five .Marketing: Uh , yeah . {vocalsound}Project Manager:{vocalsound} Um {disfmarker} Do we keep the shape doubly curved or g do we go for single curved ?Industrial Designer: Well I guess i we'll have to go forsingle curve then . I mean we have to drop on everything .Project Manager: Mm-hmm . {vocalsound} Uh {disfmarker}Marketing: But we can keep it singlecurved with uh top view still curved , but from the side it's it's flat ,Industrial Designer: Yeah .Marketing: and the screen screen is just {disfmarker} Well you justhave to hold it like this then . So {disfmarker}Project Manager: {vocalsound} Yeah . Um {disfmarker}Industrial Designer: How about {disfmarker} Sorry .ProjectManager: Uh another option I saw was to drop the buttons one through nine , so you can't directly access a channel , but instead use only the up and downarrows . That would skip nine buttons and four and a half Euros .Industrial Designer: That's what I was thinking .User Interface: Yeah .Marketing: Alright .ProjectManager: Yeah ?Industrial Designer: A aMarketing: Let's do it then . Yeah .Project Manager: Uh then we have left {disfmarker}User Interface: But we don't haveany basic options any more .Marketing: {gap} we {disfmarker} {vocalsound}Project Manager: Uh yeah . We do .Industrial Designer: And uh 'cause then theydon't have to n They don't need special colour as well .Marketing: F_ eight .Project Manager: They don't need special colours . Fine . That's more like it.Marketing: {vocalsound} Yeah .User Interface: {vocalsound}Project Manager: {vocalsound} You were saying something .Industrial Designer: That was exactlymy point . Like let's drop all the buttons , and just make oneProject Manager: Yeah .Industrial Designer: {disfmarker} I mean we're gonna use the L_C_D_screen anyway . So we'll just have to use it for everything .Project Manager: Mm-hmm . Yeah .Industrial Designer: And then you can make an overview ofchannels in the screen , and select a channel , click {disfmarker}Project Manager: Yeah , some more menu options . Yeah . Okay so maybe we can drop few morebuttons .Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}Project Manager: But um {disfmarker} Now let's look .User Interface: Yeah we c could {disfmarker} We only need thethe the the the menu arrow arrow button uh thing . Everything you can do with with the menu . So {disfmarker} With the display .Industrial Designer:{vocalsound}Project Manager: Mm-hmm .Industrial Designer: Yeah we need one integrated button for everything then .User Interface: Yeah .Marketing: Thejoystick .Project Manager: {vocalsound} Uh {disfmarker}Industrial Designer: Yeah . Kind of . I was {disfmarker} Because {disfmarker}Marketing:{vocalsound}Project Manager: Yeah , scroll-wheel , push-button uh {disfmarker}Industrial Designer: Yeah . If you if you go to {disfmarker}Marketing:Integrated scroll-wheel push-button , yeah .Industrial Designer: If you go to our uh view , like you {disfmarker} if you are in the sound system there , uh andyou wanna adjust the treble for instance ,Project Manager: Yeah . Yeah .Industrial Designer: this is just uh an example ,Project Manager: Mm-hmm .IndustrialDesigner: y y you wanna see a bar on which you can adjust it from zero to ten for example .Project Manager: Mm-hmm . Mm-hmm .Industrial Designer: But youwant a sound preview of how it's gonna sound ,Project Manager: Yeah .Industrial Designer: right ? So you wanna click on it , activate it , whe and when you moveit , hear the difference of the treble coming out or going into the sound .Project Manager: Yeah .Industrial Designer: So you'll you'll need a a kind of a joystick uhbutton .Marketing: Yeah or or the integrated scroll-wheel push-button .Industrial Designer: Yeah .Marketing: So that's kind of on your mouse and then you canclick it , adjust it , click again and then you're out of it .Industrial Designer: Exactly .Marketing: But you still {disfmarker} But you then still need to have{disfmarker} Well you can use the scroll-wheel as well for um maybe for the channels . But you still um {disfmarker}Industrial Designer: Yeah it's r Yeah.Marketing: You still have to have some some button in the menu to go back .User Interface: So you do one inte You can do one integrated scroll-wheelpush-button .Marketing: Yeah .User Interface: And then just drop all the other buttons .Project Manager: Uh yeah .Marketing: Well not all .User Interface: But butth the cost of one integrated button is far more than a few extra push-buttons .Marketing: Not s not sound I guess .Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} No .ProjectManager: Yeah . It's uh {disfmarker} One integrated button is five times the cost of a normal button .Marketing: {vocalsound}User Interface: Yeah .Marketing:Mm .Project Manager: So {disfmarker}User Interface: So we have to to make it s uh more uh {disfmarker} It has to be {disfmarker}Project Manager: You couldalso drop j three more of these , without losing much functionality . You just drop the Okay and the Back .Marketing: Yeah . Wh wh what what what is the what isthe uh sample sensor sample speaker ?Project Manager: Oh , that's for the speech .Marketing: Speech recognition .Project Manager: Yeah .User Interface: Coulddrop the speech recognition . {vocalsound}Marketing: Right .Project Manager: S s Drop speech recognition ?Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} No but{disfmarker}Project Manager: Yeah that's possible . {vocalsound}User Interface: We we dIndustrial Designer: Yeah it's it's expensive , but uh we neverconsidered the possibilities of uh speech recognition . 'Cause it can take the function of a lot of uh uh buttons .Project Manager: Buttons .Marketing: Buttons.Project Manager: That's not very easy to use .User Interface: Yeah .Industrial Designer: IMarketing: No , it can be disturbed by by noise andIndustrial Designer:No .Project Manager: {vocalsound}Industrial Designer: Yeah but lets just say that the speech recognition works .Marketing: stuff like that . Let let let me seewhat's more what's more popular . I guess the the screen was more popular than um than the speech recognition .User Interface: Yeah .Marketing: I have to lookon that . Let me see . {vocalsound} Uh well no I was wrong .Project Manager: {vocalsound}Marketing: There are more people who like speech recognition thanan L_C_D_ screen .Project Manager: Yep . Okay . Because if you d lose the L_C_D_ screen , we {vocalsound} need a lot of {disfmarker}Marketing: But if it{disfmarker} {vocalsound} But it it {disfmarker} it's a it's a both a hypersUser Interface: We lose our whole concept .Project Manager: Yeah .User Interface: Uhso {disfmarker} No we just {disfmarker}Project Manager: We need a lot of extra buttons .Marketing: No , but {disfmarker}User Interface: We keep the L_C_D_.Marketing: Well we Yeah we keep the screen . I mean it's it's about the same . Eight one to ninety one percent , uh sixty six to seventy six .Project Manager:OkayIndustrial Designer: We uh we we haven't really integrated this {disfmarker} the speech into the system ,Project Manager: so we drop the speech .IndustrialDesigner: so we can might as well s drop that . {gap}Project Manager: And drop it yeah ?User Interface: Yeah .Marketing: Yeah . Let's drop the speech .ProjectManager: Okay . S Fo Four less Euros . So we still have three and a half Euro to lose .User Interface: {vocalsound}Marketing: Sixteen Euros .Industrial Designer:{vocalsound} We need to lose some buttons .Marketing: But y yProject Manager: Yeah if you lose the the Back , the Okay button {disfmarker} Uh v let's say weonly have the four arrows , and the Menu button .Marketing: Yeah . Yeah .Project Manager: Then you're {disfmarker}Marketing: And then and then use um{disfmarker}Project Manager: {vocalsound} Oh and the power button we have also .Marketing: The the {disfmarker} Okay . And the menu button does alsodoes the okay function then .Project Manager: Yeah .Marketing: And then when you in the menu {disfmarker}Project Manager: So that's one Euro .Marketing: Sso so you activate the menu .User Interface: If we do uh two integrated scroll-wheel push-buttons , we can drop all the the push-buttons .Project Manager:{vocalsound} Yeah . Yeah ? And {gap} {disfmarker}User Interface: With with one uh integrated button we can uh do the whole menu thing . With the other , wecan do the the channel , the volume , et cetera .Marketing: Yeah yeah . {vocalsound} Yeah . {gap} .Project Manager: That would save zero point two Euroscompared to {disfmarker} No .User Interface: No it's three Euros . No ? Um {disfmarker}Project Manager: Yeah . To This together is more expensive than{disfmarker} Oof , it's almost the same as t keeping this .User Interface: No it's it's n Yeah . Yeah yeah yeah . {vocalsound}Project Manager: And we can dropthese two .Marketing: Well okay .User Interface: It's the {disfmarker}Marketing: For example if you have f f four buttons , {vocalsound} channel up and down ,uh volume left right {disfmarker}Project Manager: Volume .Marketing: Okay , I've {disfmarker} I think we have to keep that .Project Manager: And the powerbutton .Marketing: And then {disfmarker} and the power button . So that's five .Project Manager: That's the basic .Marketing: That's basic . That that's what you


Project Manager: Okay . Oh , that's not gonna work . {vocalsound} Oh , alright . {vocalsound} Okay . Okay . Um alright .Marketing: Uh , uh , um .ProjectManager: I'll just put that there . Uh as you all know we're here to create a brand new fantastic remote . Uh I'm Nick Debusk , I'm the Project Manager . Uh we'lljust get started with everyone kind of letting each other know who they are and what you're doing , what your what your role is um . Go ahead .Marketing: Okay. {vocalsound} I am Corinne Whiting and I will be the Marketing Expert and in each of the three phases I will have a different role . In the function design phase Iwill be talking about user requirement specification , and this means what needs and desires are to be fulfilled , and I'll be doing research to figure this out . Inthe conceptual design phase I will be dealing with trend watching and I'll be doing marketing research on the web . And then finally in the um detailed designphase I will be doing product evaluation and so I will be collecting the requirements and ranking all the requirements to see how we did .Project Manager: 'Kay.User Interface: Hiya , I'm Ryan . Um I'm the User Interface Designer . Um likewise I've three different roles for each stage of design . Um the functional design islooking at the tex technical functions of a remote control . Um in the concept design , the user interface , how the user reacts with the the product . And thedetailed design um {vocalsound} sort of like the user interface design , what they might be looking for , uh things like fashions , what makes wha how we'regonna make it special . That's about it .Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Right . {vocalsound} I'm Manuel and I'm the Industrial Designer in in this project um .In the functional design phase I'm {disfmarker} I'll be dealing mostly with the requirements , um we'll discuss what the prog what functions the the product hasto fulfil and so and so on . Um I suppose we'll work pretty much together on that one . Um um in the conceptual design um I'll be pro mostly dealing withproperties and materials um of our product .User Interface: Yeah .Industrial Designer: And uh the detailed design {disfmarker} in the detailed design I'll beconcerned with the look and feel of the product itself , um so we're pretty much working together obviously on the design front here . Okay . {vocalsound}ProjectManager: Okay . Um so we've got our opening , our our agenda is the opening , uh acquaintance which we've kinda done . Uh tool training , project plandiscussion and then closing .User Interface: {vocalsound}Marketing: {vocalsound}Project Manager: Uh grand total of twenty five minutes we have here . Um sowe are putting together a new remote control . Um we want it to be something original . Um of course we're a {disfmarker} not only a electronics company but afashion um conscious electronics company , so we want it to be trendy um and we want it to be easy to use . {vocalsound} Um we've got the functional design ,conceptual design and detailed design um which basically is is the three of you um . And w uh {vocalsound} well um functional design um . Um do we have{disfmarker} um any ideas of of {disfmarker} {vocalsound} maybe d let's just throw out some ideas of what kind of remote control we want to have , and thenwe can go into how we're gonna design it and and how we're gonna do the detailing on it .User Interface: Yeah . Well uh s function of remote control is just just{disfmarker} you know , change channels is its main function .Project Manager: So we want it to be um a T_V_ remote or {disfmarker} I I mean do we want it toto do other things besides just be a a television remote ?User Interface: Oh right . I suppose you c try make it a universal remoteProject Manager: 'Kay .UserInterface: for {disfmarker} could work on all sort of electrical products in in one person's house . But , you know , they all sorta have the same role changingchannels , volumes and then programming .Marketing: Mm .Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}Project Manager: Mm-hmm . 'Kay .Industrial Designer: Mm .UserInterface: I think they all work on the same prin principle as well sorta like {disfmarker} I don't actually know . {gap} But is it just infra-red ? Is that standard?Project Manager: I I think {disfmarker} yeah , yeah , r universal remote .User Interface: Ye yeah .Project Manager: Um this is my first uh go-round withcreating a remote control ,Marketing: Huh . {vocalsound}Project Manager: so {disfmarker}Marketing: {vocalsound} Ours too . {vocalsound}User Interface:{vocalsound}Project Manager: {vocalsound} I think we're all in the same boat here . {vocalsound} Um {disfmarker}User Interface: Um one thing I thought ofwith the remote control is you always lose 'em .Project Manager: Okay .User Interface: So if there's a g a way of finding it quite easily , I thought that'd be quitegood quite a good feature .Marketing: Mm . ChProject Manager: So we should we should set our remote control up to where it has a uhMarketing: Like a trackingdevice ? {vocalsound}Project Manager: like a tracking device or or like a a {disfmarker}User Interface: Oh you can get those key {disfmarker} well you couldwhistle or make a noiseProject Manager: It makes a noise ,User Interface: and it'd beep .Project Manager: there's a button on the T_V_ that you pressIndustrialDesigner: Mm , mm .Project Manager: and {disfmarker}User Interface: Yeah .Marketing: Mm .Industrial Designer: Right .Project Manager: 'Kay .Marketing: Begood .Industrial Designer: So {disfmarker}User Interface: Generally , all remotes are sort of quite similar in their appearance .Project Manager: Yeah . Do wewant {disfmarker}User Interface: Just long .Project Manager: so they're kinda like long and rectangular .User Interface: {vocalsound} Yeah .Project Manager: Dowe want something crazy ?User Interface: Black usually .Project Manager: You know , we want something new that's gonna stand out .User Interface: Yeah.Marketing: Lot more modern .Project Manager: A m a modern {disfmarker} so our remote should be {disfmarker}User Interface: I think so . Maybe sortaspherical or something . A ball .Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}Marketing: Maybe like user-friendly , like a littleUser Interface: Yeah .Marketing: you know ,where you can use both hands , like a little keyboard type thing .User Interface: People {disfmarker}Industrial Designer: Mm .User Interface: I thought maybe ,because people always tend to throw a remote control about the place to one another {disfmarker} if it was in a ball ,Project Manager: 'Kay .User Interface: andmaybe the actual controls are inside or something .Marketing: Mm .Project Manager: Um .Industrial Designer: Well there are of course certain restrictions , youcan't have it be any form and fulfil all functions at the same time ,User Interface: Yeah .Industrial Designer: so there are always the {disfmarker} somerestrictions we have to apply here . Um however um one question is how stable is that thing supposed to be , that refers to the material , pretty much um . Whatare we gonna build that thing out of ?Marketing: Mm .Industrial Designer: How sturdy is it gonna be ? Do we want it to last longer or rather have people whatever, have to buy one every half a year ?Project Manager: {vocalsound} Okay so {disfmarker} yeah , so we want it to be sturdy ,User Interface: Yeah .ProjectManager: we want it to to hold up to somebody's child , you know , throwing it across the room or , as you said , people kinda throw it , so ball-shaped , uh youknow , if it were ball-shaped maybe ,User Interface: Yeah .Project Manager: then it {disfmarker}User Interface: It could be cased on the outside and t everythingcould be inside .Project Manager: 'Kay . Um so we want it to be modern , fun , sturdy , um {disfmarker} So our form and our function . Um we want it to be umeasy to find . {vocalsound} Um {disfmarker} {vocalsound} What else {disfmarker} it {disfmarker} what else do we want it to to do ? So we want it to beuniversal . It's something that we're supposed to sell for about twenty five Euros um and you know , goals for profits are I think somewhere around uh fiftymillion Euros , what they wanna make on it , so .Marketing: Mm . Also since we're partners of the International Remote Control Association , maybe we wannamake it something that would globally appeal .Project Manager: 'Kay .Marketing: That's more on the research end , but {disfmarker} the marketing .ProjectManager: So marketing , you know , how {disfmarker} maybe uh marketing , you could s find out what is the most universally um appealing {vocalsound}remote control out there .Marketing: {vocalsound} Yeah .Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}Marketing: And maybe as far as design goes , maybe we could havedifferent ones for different target audiences ,Project Manager: 'Kay .Marketing: 'cause maybe one won't apply to all of the countries we're targeting .UserInterface: Ye Small .Industrial Designer: Right .Project Manager: Um {disfmarker} {vocalsound} Do you guys have any ideas for what it should look like ? Maybewe could draw it up on the on the board over there . Some ideas ? We want it to be a b a ball ,User Interface: {gap} I'd {disfmarker} I could draw sorta the ballidea .Project Manager: you know , we'll draw up we'll draw up the ball and maybe th um where the buttons are located .User Interface: My original idea was justsimply sort of a sphere , where maybe you {disfmarker} this is where it's connected together , and then when you open it out , it could fol it could be maybe flip ,like a flip phone , and then when you fold it out the middle {disfmarker} Maybe a hinge that'll have to be the strongest part of it . If that {disfmarker} if we diduse a hinge , or if it was just two parts ,Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}User Interface: and then you'd have just sorta you you you know , your buttons . Thingis inside I think , sometimes remotes have too many buttons , so maybe as simple as possible , um as few buttons inside as possible . Um , I dunno , what's theidea for . Just something {disfmarker} maybe if you ha if it had like if some kind of like light or something or lights around it . It's looking a bit like something outof Star Wars at the moment though , to be fair .Marketing: {vocalsound}Project Manager: {vocalsound}User Interface: {vocalsound} But yeah .Marketing:Futuristic . {vocalsound}Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}User Interface: That was that was a sorta simple idea I hadProject Manager: Uh-huh .User Interface:and then you know you could {gap} about {disfmarker} Right , it would almost be like a ball . So that was just just an idea I had . I don't know whether anybodyelse has other ideas ?Industrial Designer: Right . One problem you'd get with this design is um {disfmarker} the ball is a nice idea because of it's stability really,User Interface: Yeah .Industrial Designer: but of course , since it's a ball , it'll roll , so we'd have to have it flat on one side at least , down here somewhere ,UserInterface: Yeah . Maybe f yeah .Industrial Designer: take away that part . That's one of the big issues . Also also you risk the hinges here . That's that's um aproblem .User Interface: Yeah , that's g that's a good idea . Yeah . The idea {disfmarker} it didn't have to necessarily be f a hinge ,Industrial Designer:{vocalsound} That's that's {vocalsound} interesting of course ,User Interface: that was just one idea though .Industrial Designer: but that's of course a weak