Project Manager: Is everyone ready to start ?Industrial Designer: Yeah . {vocalsound}User Interface: Yeah .Marketing: {vocalsound} Yes .Project Manager: Okay. Great . Well , welcome to the third meeting of conceptual design . I'll just get the PowerPoint presentation up and running . Okay . Um , on the agenda for this ,um , for this particular meeting , we'll have your three presentations on what you've done since our last meeting , after we came up with um some general ideasof our design . And , um , then we have to make some key decisions on , on our remote control concept , and how we're gonna make it , what uh materials we'regonna use , and that sort of thing .Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}Project Manager: The meeting will be forty minutes long .Industrial Designer: Okay .ProjectManager: And um we will once again have Poppy as our first presenter .Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Okay .Project Manager: Alright , and I will switch upPowerPoint .Industrial Designer: Thank you .Project Manager: Okay .Industrial Designer: Should be just loading . {vocalsound} Okay . Oh , although I can't see iton my screen . That says go here . Okay . I've been doing some research into the different components that we could use , um what's available to us f to actuallymake the remote control . Um , first of all we have to look at how the remote control is actually made , and what is it happens inside the casing , which is moreyour field . Um , thes main internal feature is a circuit board , which contains all the elec electronics and also the contacts with the power source .Marketing:{vocalsound}Industrial Designer: Which is not necessarily a battery , as we're about to see . Um , there are several components of , um , the circuit board thatwe need to consider , where we'll be getting them from , what they'll be made of . Um , including the integrated circuit , which is also known as the chip . Which iswhere all the main information is uh contained . Um , diodes , transistors , resonators , resistors , and capacit capacitors all need to be considered as well . Um ,and all their positioning in the circuit .Project Manager: Um {disfmarker} Are they all included , like mandatorily , or r are these different options ?IndustrialDesigner: Uh , these , they're all different options , they're all separate , apart from the chip , which we will probable decide whether we buy a simple , a regular ,advanced .Project Manager: Yeah .Industrial Designer: We can go into that later . Um , all the other things are individual components that we'd have to get inseparately , and work out the most , like , effective um circuit , including all the wires and everything like that . And the L_E_D_ of course , that's a light emittingdiode . So , we could , so we've got flex flexibility with colours and things , with that as well .Project Manager: Mm .Industrial Designer: Okay , there are lots ofdifferent possibilities for the energy source . We could use a basic battery , but that brings with it , like they need to be recharged and the bulk , the size of it aswell . And they're not so great to dispose of , environmentally . {vocalsound} There's a hand-powered dynamo which is a sort of thing that was used for torchesfifty years ago . A bit out of date . Kinetic energy is something that's been recently developed .Project Manager: Um {disfmarker} What is a hand-powereddynamo ?Industrial Designer: Um , where you manually charge up the power .Project Manager: Just every , every once in a while ?Industrial Designer: Like youwind up something .Project Manager: Just every once in a while or constantly ?Industrial Designer: Sorry ? Yeah . Every once in a while I thinkProject Manager:Alright . It'd be kind of strange to always be cranking it I think .Industrial Designer: . But it's {disfmarker} Yeah . It would be like going a step back in time .UserInterface: {vocalsound} Yeah .Industrial Designer: I don't think it would really be with kind of cutting edge technology .Project Manager: No .{vocalsound}Marketing: {vocalsound}Industrial Designer: Whereas kinetic energy is a new idea that's being used by some watches and other devices , whereyou just shake the device and it gives it power . I mean , the kinetic energy is transformed into power to make the circuit work . Um , or there's solar power ,which we've been considering inside a building , which is where it's gonna be used , might not be quite so useful .Project Manager: Right .Industrial Designer: But, good to look into , renewable energy , always the way . Um , lots of considerations for the case , like what sort of shape it would be , curved or flat . That's got alot to do with the ergonomics . Like how it's comfortable and s sits in the hand . We don't want something that's huge and you can't pick up . Or too small . Or tooslidy . I know I've had a remote control before which you couldn't tell which was the front and the back ,User Interface: {vocalsound}Industrial Designer: 'causeit had so many buttons on , and the shape was so symmetrical that I'd be pressing like a volume button instead of the on button .Marketing: Mm .IndustrialDesigner: Because you can't really see which way round it is .Project Manager: Right .Industrial Designer: Um , we also can choose what materials {disfmarker}um , the {disfmarker} we could use metal , we could use rubber which might be more um ideal for the anti-R_S_I_ . It's like the same sort of rubber that's usedin stress balls and things like that , so it's very like soft , not so stressful on your hands .Project Manager: Mm-hmm .Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Wood.Project Manager: {vocalsound}Industrial Designer: Um , again , stepping back in time again there .User Interface: {vocalsound}Industrial Designer: I don'tthink that's quite up to date with what we're looking for here .Project Manager: Yeah .Industrial Designer: Um , titanium is not gonna be possible , even though itjust it beyond our budget really . But , would've been maybe for future projects . Um right our choice for buttons as well . We've developed some {disfmarker}we've got some good advances in technology , with our research team have found some uh new multiple um option scroll buttons . I think that was brought upfor , um , {disfmarker} they're basically quite a flexible design , modern , you don't have to use individual buttons . You can just slide up and down . I'm surewe're all quite familiar with those on mobiles or computer laptop pads .Project Manager: Mm-hmm .User Interface: Yeah .Project Manager: Um one thing with thescroll buttons though . It , it {disfmarker}Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}Project Manager: we would have to have an L_C_D_ umIndustrial Designer: Yeah .That's true .Project Manager: display , and the glow in the dark thing might be difficult .Industrial Designer: And that would lead to an advanced {disfmarker}yeah . If we have {disfmarker} yeah . We're going on to that later with the advanc with the L_C_D_ that means we'd need a really advanced chip .ProjectManager: Yeah .Industrial Designer: And it's unlikely that that's gonna be in our budget .Marketing: Mm-hmm .Industrial Designer: Um , also we've got theintegrated pushbutton , which is what we're most familiar with . It's the most straightforward . But you can in like incorporate that with a scroll button as well .{gap} . Got decisions to make there . And this is what I was just saying before . Linked in the different {disfmarker} depends on what type of buttons we haveand the inputs . Um simple would go with the pushbutton . Um , regular you could link with the scroll button . And the advanced we'd have to go with a L_C_D_ sdisplay .Project Manager: Right .Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} My personal preferences ? I think we could go for the kinetic energy source . I don't , I thinkthat's quite um an advanced kind of technology . It's not been seen before , so it could be quite a , a novelty factor , attractive as well . And also energy saving'cause you're producing the energy , you don't need an external sort of battery supply or solar panels . You just give it a shake .Project Manager: Yeah .IndustrialDesigner: {vocalsound} Sounds brilliant to me .Project Manager: Uh .Industrial Designer: Rubber casing I thing would probably the best , if we're going for theanti-R_S_I_ and like more choice with um aesthetics . Like it could be pretty much any colour we want . Um , and gives you , yeah , more flexibility there . Andprobably the regular chip as opposed to the simple ,Marketing: {vocalsound}Industrial Designer: then we could possibly have the scroll and the push , but noL_C_D_ , 'cause we probably can't afford that one .Project Manager: Yeah . Um , one concern with the rubber casing is that it would be rubber encapsulating all ofthese {vocalsound} chips and diodes and delicate technology asIndustrial Designer: Mm-hmm .Project Manager: like as the exterior . This is the one thing that'sprotecting its innards .Industrial Designer: I think that would , uh there would be an in sort of more internal casing . And the rubber would just be the , what's incontact with the human .Project Manager: Yeah . Another thing is it might be more difficult {disfmarker} if it's a rubber exterior {gap} talking about putting oninterchangeable plates .Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Yeah .Project Manager: Um , is it {disfmarker}Industrial Designer: Yeah .Marketing: Mm-hmm .ProjectManager: I don't see how a like a rubber plate going on top it would stay there . Like if it was sort of like a clip-on plastic plate . It would work that way .IndustrialDesigner: Maybe if the , um , if it was just kind of a , more of a rubber coating which was on to a case .User Interface: WIndustrial Designer: So , it was kind of ,the whole thing would be removable .User Interface: Like plastic with rubber , kind of on topIndustrial Designer: Yeah .Project Manager: Yeah .IndustrialDesigner: Like {disfmarker} I can't think of what .User Interface: Well , there's , there is a certain phone that has like a rubber casing ,Project Manager: Yeah.Industrial Designer: Yeah . Or like an {disfmarker}User Interface: b like a Nokia it is .Marketing: Mm-hmm .Industrial Designer: you can get sort of outer casingfor iPods and something , that's just {disfmarker} it's protective as well .User Interface: It's {disfmarker} yeah .Project Manager: Yeah .Marketing: Like the skin?Industrial Designer: It , it stops it , I mean ,Marketing: Yeah .Industrial Designer: it would reduce the impact if it was dropped or something , as well , 'cause itwouldn't damage itself so easily .Project Manager: Yeah .User Interface: {vocalsound}Project Manager: Alright . So maybe the {disfmarker}Industrial Designer: Ithink i maybe a mixture of both there , maybe .Marketing: Okay .Project Manager: Yeah .Industrial Designer: Yeah .Marketing: So the actual remote would behard plastic and the casings rubber .Industrial Designer: And then {disfmarker} yeah . Yeah .User Interface: Yeah .Marketing: Okay .Project Manager: Yeah.Marketing: And the buttons obviously are rubber .Industrial Designer: Yeah .User Interface: Yeah .Marketing: Okay .Project Manager: Yeah .Marketing:{vocalsound}Project Manager: That sounds good . I , um , is it possible to put designs onto this type of rubber ?Industrial Designer: As far as I know . It shouldbe .Project Manager: Okay ,Marketing: {vocalsound}Project Manager: we'll just say yeah . {vocalsound}User Interface: {vocalsound}Project Manager: Yes , justwhy not .Industrial Designer: Yeah . Yeah , yeah . {vocalsound}Project Manager: {vocalsound} Alright . I like the kinetic energy source idea .Industrial Designer:


Project Manager: Uh it fell off . One , two , three , four , yeah , we're ready . Okay . Welcome to this second meeting . Um it's now quarter after twelve and we'regiven forty minutes um for this meeting . This is a meeting on functional design . Um and I wanna welcome you all and thank you all for doing some research inbetween . Um I did {disfmarker} took the minutes from the first meeting and I'll show them to you in a moment . Um I know each of you have a presentation andum in thinking about the forty minutes , I thought it would take only like three minutes for the previous minutes , um each of you having about seven minutes ormaybe a little more , maybe a little less for your pre presentations and a little discussion , because there's {disfmarker} I happen to have been told there weresome new project requirements and we have to make some uh decision on what functions it will have . Okay ? Is this ap everybody agree with this ?IndustrialDesigner: Oops .User Interface: Yes .Marketing: Yes .Project Manager: Okay . Um and after the meeting there'll be things to be done and as you can see it sayswe get to get lunch , um and then some more individual work and then putting minutes away and individual actions . {vocalsound} Um but uh now for theminutes of the first meeting . And go to that one . Um as you can see it was this earlier today . Um Kate , Steph , Sarah and myself in our four capacities werepresent . I opened the meeting , the product was developed uh and reviewed , and we talked about the financial end of it . Um and it had some implications , umthe four million sales target and new ideas of not too many buttons , bright colours and some of the influence of the Japanese . And we closed early so you couldthen proceed with your research and getting your reports together for tod this meeting {vocalsound} Anybody have any questions on those minutes ? Are theycomplete , did they discuss everything that we covered last time ? 'Kay .Industrial Designer: Uh I think so ,Project Manager: Did I miss something ?IndustrialDesigner: we we we talked about the the individual roles that we each had as well .Marketing: Mm-hmm .Project Manager: Yeah . I'm afraid I incorporated{vocalsound} that when I said who was present , but {disfmarker} yes , we did ,Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Okay .Project Manager: and we did a little bitof uh team building of uh of making the pictures ,Marketing: {vocalsound} Okay , I accept the minutes .Project Manager: but I didn't think those wereappropriate to the minutes necessarily . So um as a group I think we've {disfmarker} are {disfmarker} they're accepting the minutes . And uh {disfmarker} okay.Marketing: Is that what we're supposed to say ?Project Manager: Yeah .User Interface: Yeah , I do .Project Manager: Good . Um , then we'll move to the threepresentations . Okay ?Marketing: Okay .Project Manager: Okay . Mm we need to move this . Who wants to go f first ? {vocalsound} That's as far as it goes .UserInterface: Uh not really meant to touch those microphones . Oh it doesn't have any on , does it ? That's fine .Marketing: Excellent , thank you .IndustrialDesigner: Oy , big loop under the table .Project Manager: She said we didn't need to screw it in .Marketing: Okay . Okay , that looks good .Project Manager: It'sdoing its thing . There we are .Marketing: Alright . Thank you very much . Um . One of the the biggest issues I found about um from last meeting was the factthat we need to sell four million of these um remote controls and I think that this is an opportunity to really take Real Reaction in the direction of of similar{disfmarker} of handheld tools that have been used and are used by many of us and to kind of bring the remote control into the si same realm as an accessibleum useful electronic device , as opposed to something that is lost in the couch and what have you . So um my main goal here is to re-envision the remote controlin in this context and to think about menu functionality and current technology and the fact that it could be interactive with other tools . Um some of the researchuh in the market has shown that people really are not happy with remote controls as they are now , and um that means we do need to make some decisionsabout what what keys or or buttons on the on the remote control to perhaps keep and and what ones to discard . And if we devote some energy into this , I thinkthe um recent productions of Real Reaction , the I go everywhere power and the high definition D_V_D_ players {disfmarker} although it makes immediate senseto {vocalsound} have our remote control interact with these , I think we can also use this as a platform to make it interact with other tools . And um in fact Ithink the high definition D_V_D_ players and all of this will come along in the uh {disfmarker} will only benefit from the positive feedback {vocalsound} from ourwell designed tool . So again , most uh users really dislike the current look and feel of remote controls . Um {vocalsound} fifty percent {disfmarker} I think of allthese uh numbers the most important is fifty percent of user say they only use ten percent of the buttons . And eighty percent of users , and if we think about this{vocalsound} there are a lot of uh television , D_V_D_ , stereo remote control users out there , eighty percent would spend more money on a remote control thatlooks fancy .Industrial Designer: Could {disfmarker} can I ask where these figures come from , is this market research we've {disfmarker}Marketing: Um it wasmarket research and there were a hundred people in the room , so eighty out of a hundred said they would spend more money .Project Manager: Now in between, as the Project Manager , they sent me an email from the powers that beIndustrial Designer: Mm-hmm .Project Manager: um that teletext is outdatedumMarketing: Mm-hmm .Project Manager: and the internet is coming in as important , but that they want this remote control to only be for T_V_ um withincorporating the corporate image , colour and slogan .Marketing: Mm-hmm . {vocalsound} Well I think we can {disfmarker} I I think we can really focus on thisremote and and again bring the Real Reaction um brand in in and and get some positive marketing for our other tools , even if we directly don't um advertise{vocalsound} for the I go everywhere line .Project Manager: Mm .Marketing: So an interesting um element was the would you pay more for speech recognitionquestion . So these market research uh uh questionnaires {vocalsound} looked into your your uh concern about technologyProject Manager: Hmm .IndustrialDesigner: {vocalsound}Marketing: and s specifically wanted to find out information about speech recognition .Project Manager: Okay .Marketing: Now the earlyadopters , those of us who grew up with technology and uh luck lucky for us have the uh cash to to pay for it , the young age group without the mortgages andresponsibilities , ninety one percent of them {vocalsound} would pay more for speech recognition in a remote control . Very interesting , I I leave this up to thegroup to decide if we wanna use this uh if {disfmarker} and you know , the the designers ,Project Manager: Mm .Marketing: but ninety one percent , fifteen totwenty five {disfmarker}Project Manager: Is that a large enough target market to target it ?Marketing: Well , I I I think {disfmarker} especially in terms ofgrowth , I think this would be a very smart group to target . I mean s three quarters of the next age group , twenty five to thirty five are interested , and uh withthe technologies improving , if we can get these uh {disfmarker}Project Manager: In real numbers , does the ninety one percent and the seventy six percenttranslate to ex in excess of the four million ?Marketing: {vocalsound} Yeah . To {disfmarker} {vocalsound} Um yes .Project Manager: Or eight million.Marketing: Yes . But would you pay more and does it work and is it approachable and and did I know that it was it was an {disfmarker}Project Manager: Hmm.Marketing: that's a that's a very good question .Project Manager: {vocalsound} Yeah .Industrial Designer: Um {disfmarker}Marketing: I don't know if speechrecognition should be um should be included ,Project Manager: Mm .Marketing: but I think it's an interesting {disfmarker} I think that maybe shows more aboutuh being open to technology .Project Manager: Mm .User Interface: Uh it definitely needs uh a lot more researchMarketing: Shall I go back ?User Interface: onlike how much more it would be and any , you know , existing examples ,Marketing: Yeah , yeah .User Interface: and what reactions to them have been , andthat sort of thing .Marketing: Yeah .Industrial Designer: How d I'm wondering how how ou how our target price compares with the the typical price of thesethings . I expect an Industrial Designer should know that , but if we're aiming to to build this thing for twelve Euros fifty , um is that a lot or a little ?Marketing:Exactly . I mean I I I uh did not receive any information on that , but I think the competition , sussing out what other people are doing and what's in the pipelineis very very important , because um there is a question about do you want an L_C_D_ screen and and that wasn't responded to , but uh some of the largerremotes do have screens where you can navigate , you know , so it turns into something {disfmarker} uh perhaps you all have seen uh the Osbournes whereOzzy Osbourne is is attempting to manage his super entertainment system with something that looks like a uh a small tray .Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Shsurely he's in the wrong age group .Marketing: You know ,Project Manager: {vocalsound} {vocalsound}Marketing: it's {disfmarker} I a and I think , you know{disfmarker}Industrial Designer: He must be w one of a s small population . {vocalsound}Marketing: {vocalsound} No , no ,Project Manager: Mm .Marketing:you {disfmarker} Kate , you're exactly right there . {vocalsound} But I think the key is to get the early adopters , people who are familiar with technology andand uh they'll be {disfmarker}Project Manager: But we're not looking at whether they're early adopters on that screen ,Marketing: Uh , mm .Project Manager:that's looking at age groups .Marketing: Exactly . I {vocalsound} yes , and I'm making and I'm making the the uh uh leap that people who are familiar{disfmarker} younger people are l are more familiar with technology than than older people . Or comfortable ,Project Manager: Leap . {vocalsound} Hmm . Mm.Marketing: you know , um so {disfmarker}Project Manager: Okay , you had the other power channel .Marketing: I think the most important thing is an attractivestreamlined remote control and to be extraordinarily reductionist , power , channel , volume and everything else is is uh up to the designers . {vocalsound} Andthis is this is also supported by the market research .Project Manager: Okay .Marketing: {vocalsound} Thank you . That's my contribution .Project Manager:Alright . And we'll turn to the next presentation . I think she said we don't need to screw it in , just stick it in . And then press , what ? F F_N_ and F_ eight . Nextto the control button on the bottom , and then F_ eight at the top .User Interface: Yeah , press them .Project Manager: And then w be patient . {vocalsound}UserInterface: Yeah , here we go .Project Manager: Tada .Industrial Designer: And if you want it to go into slide show mode , it's that little button there .User


Postdoc B: Alright .Professor C: So , uh {disfmarker}Grad F: Um , so I wanted to discuss digits briefly , but that won't take too long .Professor C: Oh good . Right. OK , agenda items , Uh , we have digits , What else we got ?PhD A: New version of the presegmentation .Professor C: New version of presegmentation .PostdocB: Um , do we wanna say something about the , an update of the , uh , transcript ?PhD G: Yeah , why don't you summarize the {disfmarker}Professor C: Updateon transcripts .PhD G: And I guess that includes some {disfmarker} the filtering for the , the ASI refs , too .Postdoc B: Mmm .Professor C: Filtering for what ?PhDG: For the references that we need to go from the {disfmarker} the {pause} fancy transcripts to the sort of {nonvocalsound} brain - dead .Postdoc B: It 'll{disfmarker} it 'll be {disfmarker} basically it 'll be a re - cap of a meeting that we had jointly this morning .Professor C: Uh - huh .PhD G: With Don , as well.Postdoc B: Mm - hmm .Professor C: Got it . Anything else more pressing than those things ? So {disfmarker} So , why don't we just do those . You said yourswas brief , so {disfmarker}Grad F: OK . OK well , the , w uh as you can see from the numbers on the digits we 're almost done . The digits goes up to {pause}about four thousand . Um , and so , uh , we probably will be done with the TI - digits in , um , another couple weeks . um , depending on how many we read eachtime . So there were a bunch that we skipped . You know , someone fills out the form and then they 're not at the meeting and so it 's blank . Um , but those arealmost all filled in as well . And so , once we 're {disfmarker} it 's done it would be very nice to train up a recognizer and actually start working with this data .PhDD: So we 'll have a corpus that 's the size of TI - digits ?Grad F: And so {disfmarker} One particular test set of TI - digits .PhD D: Test set , OK .Grad F: So , I{disfmarker} I extracted , Ther - there was a file sitting around which people have used here as a test set . It had been randomized and so onPhD D: Grad F: andthat 's just what I used to generate the order . of these particular ones .PhD D: Oh ! Great . Great .Professor C: So , I 'm impressed by what we could do , Is takethe standard training set for TI - digits , train up with whatever , you know , great features we think we have , uh for instance , and then test on uh this test set.Grad F: Um {disfmarker}Professor C: And presumably uh it should do reasonably well on that , and then , presumably , we should go to the distant mike , and itshould do poorly .PhD D: Yeah .Professor C: And then we should get really smart over the next year or two , and it {disfmarker} that should get better .Grad F:Right . And inc increase it by one or two percent , yeah .Professor C: Yeah , {vocalsound} Yeah .Grad F: Um , but , in order to do that we need to extract out theactual digits .Professor C: Right .Grad F: Um , so that {disfmarker} the reason it 's not just a transcript is that there 're false starts , and misreads , and miscuesand things like that . And so I have a set of scripts and X Waves where you just select the portion , hit R , um , it tells you what the next one should be , and youjust look for that . You know , so it {disfmarker} it 'll put on the screen , " The next set is six nine , nine two two " . And you find that , and , hit the key and itrecords it in a file in a particular format .Professor C: So is this {disfmarker}Grad F: And so the {disfmarker} the question is , should we have the transcribers dothat or should we just do it ? Well , some of us . I 've been do I 've done , eight meetings , something like that , just by hand . Just myself , rather . So it will nottake long . Um {disfmarker}Professor C: Uh , what {disfmarker} what do you think ?Postdoc B: My feeling is that we discussed this right before coffee and I thinkit 's a {disfmarker} it 's a fine idea partly because , um , it 's not un unrelated to their present skill set , but it will add , for them , an extra dimension , it might bean interesting break for them . And also it is contributing to the , uh , c composition of the transcript cuz we can incorporate those numbers directly and it 'll be amore complete transcript . So I 'm {disfmarker} I think it 's fine , that part .Grad F: There is {disfmarker} there is {disfmarker}Professor C: So you think it 's fineto have the transcribers do it ?Postdoc B: Mm - hmm .Professor C: Yeah , OK .Grad F: There 's one other small bit , which is just entering the information which ats which is at the top of this form , onto the computer , to go along with the {disfmarker} where the digits are recorded automatically .PhD D: Good .Professor C:Yeah .Grad F: And so it 's just , you know , typing in name , times {disfmarker} time , date , and so on . Um , which again either they can do , but it is , you know, firing up an editor , or , again , I can do . Or someone else can do .Postdoc B: And , that , you know , I 'm not , that {disfmarker} that one I 'm not so sure if it's into the {disfmarker} the , things that , I , wanted to use the hours for , because the , the time that they 'd be spending doing that they wouldn't be able to beputting more words on .Professor C: Mmm .Postdoc B: But that 's really your choice , it 's your {disfmarker}PhD D: So are these two separate tasks that canhappen ? Or do they have to happen at the same time before {disfmarker}Grad F: No they don't have {disfmarker} this {disfmarker} you have to enter the databefore , you do the second task , but they don't have to happen at the same time .PhD D: OK .Grad F: So it 's {disfmarker} it 's just I have a file whi which hasthis information on it , and then when you start using my scripts , for extracting the times , it adds the times at the bottom of the file . And so , um , I mean , it 'seasy to create the files and leave them blank , and so actually we could do it in either order .PhD D: Oh , OK .Grad F: Um , it 's {disfmarker} it 's sort of nice tohave the same person do it just as a double - check , to make sure you 're entering for the right person . But , either way .Professor C: Yeah . Yeah just by way ofuh , uh , a uh , order of magnitude , uh , um , we 've been working with this Aurora , uh data set . And , uh , the best score , on the , nicest part of the data , thatis , where you 've got training and test set that are basically the same kinds of noise and so forth , uh , is about , uh {disfmarker} I think the best score wassomething like five percent , uh , error , per digit .PhD A: Per digit .Professor C: So , that {disfmarker}Grad F: Per digit .Professor C: You 're right . So if you weredoing {pause} ten digit , uh , recognition , {vocalsound} you would really be in trouble . So {disfmarker} So the {disfmarker} The point there , and this is uh carnoise uh , uh things , but {disfmarker} but real {disfmarker} real situation ,PhD D: Mm - hmm .Professor C: well , " real " , Um , the {disfmarker} uh there 's onemicrophone that 's close , that they have as {disfmarker} as this sort of thing , close versus distant . Uh but in a car , instead of {disfmarker} instead of having aprojector noise it 's {disfmarker} it 's car noise . Uh but it wasn't artificially added to get some {disfmarker} some artificial signal - to - noise ratio . It was justpeople driving around in a car . So , that 's {disfmarker} that 's an indication , uh that was with , many sites competing , and this was the very best score and soforth , so . More typical numbers likePhD D: Although the models weren't , that good , right ? I mean , the models are pretty crappy ?Professor C: You 're right . Ithink that we could have done better on the models , but the thing is that we got {disfmarker} this {disfmarker} this is the kind of typical number , for all of the ,uh , uh , things in this task , all of the , um , languages . And so I {disfmarker} I think we 'd probably {disfmarker} the models would be better in some than inothers . Um , so , uh . Anyway , just an indication once you get into this kind of realm even if you 're looking at connected digits it can be pretty hard .PhD D:Hmm .Postdoc B: Hmm . It 's gonna be fun to see how we , compare at this . Very exciting . s @ @ .Professor C: Yeah .PhD D: How did we do on the TI - digits?Grad F: Well the prosodics are so much different s it 's gonna be , strange . I mean the prosodics are not the same as TI - digits , for example .Professor C: Yeah.Grad F: So I 'm {disfmarker} I 'm not sure how much of effect that will have .PhD D: H how do {disfmarker}PhD G: What do you mean , the prosodics ?Grad F:Um , just what we were talking about with grouping . That with these , the grouping , there 's no grouping at all , and so it 's just {disfmarker} the only sort ofdiscontinuity you have is at the beginning and the end .PhD G: So what are they doing in Aurora , are they reading actual phone numbers ,Grad F: Aurora I don'tknow . I don't know what they do in Aurora .PhD G: or , a {disfmarker} a digit at a time , or {disfmarker} ?Professor C: Uh , I 'm not sure how {disfmarker}PhDG: Cuz it 's {disfmarker}Professor C: no , no I mean it 's connected {disfmarker} it 's connected , uh , digits ,PhD G: Connected .Professor C: yeah . But .Grad F:But {disfmarker} Right .PhD G: So there 's also the {disfmarker} not just the prosody but the cross {disfmarker} the cross - word modeling is probably quitedifferent .PhD D: H HowGrad F: But in TI - digits , they 're reading things like zip codes and phone numbers and things like that ,PhD G: Right .PhD D: do we doon TI - digits ?Grad F: so it 's gonna be different . I don't remember . I mean , very good , right ?Professor C: Yeah , I mean we were in the .Grad F: One and ahalf percent , two percent , something like that ?Professor C: Uh , I th no I think we got under a percent , but it was {disfmarker} but it 's {disfmarker} but Imean . The very best system that I saw in the literature was a point two five percent or something that somebody had at {disfmarker} at Bell Labs , or . Uh , but. But , uh , sort of pulling out all the stops .Grad F: Oh really ?Postdoc B: s @ @ . It s strikes me that there are more {disfmarker} each of them is moreinformative because it 's so , random ,Grad F: OK . Alright .PhD D: Hmm .Professor C: But I think a lot of systems sort of get half a percent , or three - quarters apercent ,Grad F: Right .Professor C: and we 're {disfmarker} we 're in there somewhere .Grad F: But that {disfmarker} I mean it 's really {disfmarker} it 's{disfmarker} it 's close - talking mikes , no noise , clean signal , just digits , I mean , every everything is good .Professor C: Yeah .PhD G: It 's the beginning oftime in speech recognition .Grad F: Yes , exactly .Professor C: Yeah .Grad F: And we 've only recently got it to anywhere near human .PhD G: It 's like the , singlecell , you know , it 's the beginning of life ,PhD D: Pre - prehistory .PhD G: yeah .Grad F: And it 's still like an order of magnitude worse than what humans do.PhD G: Right .Professor C: Yeah .Grad F: So .Professor C: When {disfmarker} When they 're wide awake , yeah . Um ,Grad F: Yeah . After coffee .Professor C:after coffee , you 're right . Not after lunch .Grad F: OK , so , um , what I 'll do then is I 'll go ahead and enter , this data . And then , hand off to Jane , and thetranscribers to do the actual extraction of the digits .Professor C: Yeah . Yeah . One question I have that {disfmarker} that I mean , we wouldn't know the answerto now but might , do some guessing , but I was talking before about doing some model modeling of arti uh , uh , marking of articulatory , features , with overlapand so on .Grad F: Hmm .Professor C: And , and , um , On some subset . One thought might be to do this uh , on {disfmarker} on the digits , or some piece of


Grad D: And we already got the crash out of the way . It did crash , so I feel much better , earlier .Professor F:  Yeah .Postdoc E: Interesting . Hmm .Professor F:Will you get the door , and {disfmarker} ? Grad D: OK , so um .Professor F: OK . You collected an agenda , huh ?Grad D: I did collect an agenda . So I 'm gonnago first . Mwa - ha - ha ! It shouldn't take too long .Postdoc E: Yeah .Grad D: Um , so we 're pretty much out of digits . We 've gone once through the set . Um ,so the only thing I have to doProfessor F: No there 's only ten .Grad D: Yeah , that 's right . so I {disfmarker} I just have to go through themProfessor F: Well ,OK .Grad D: and uh pick out the ones that have problems , and either correct them or have them re - read . So we probably have like four or five more forms tobe read , to be once through the set . I 've also extracted out about an hour 's worth . We have about two hours worth . I extracted out about an hour 's worthwhich are the f digits with {disfmarker} for which whose speaker have speaker forms , have filled out speaker forms . Not everyone 's filled out a speaker form .So I extracted one for speakers who have speaker forms and for meetings in which the " key " file and the transcript files are parsable . Some of the early keyfiles , it looks like , were done by hand , and so they 're not automatically parsable and I have to go back and fix those . So what that means is we have about anhour of transcribed digits that we can play with . Um , Liz {disfmarker}Professor F: So you think two {disfmarker} you think two hours is the {disfmarker} is thetotal that we have ?Grad D: Yep , yeah .Professor F: And you think we th uh , I {disfmarker} I didn't quite catch all these different things that are not quite right ,but you think we 'll be able to retrieve the other hour , reasonably ?Grad D: Yes , absolutely .Professor F: OK .Grad D: So it 's just a question of a little hand -editing of some files and then waiting for more people to turn in their speaker forms . I have this web - based speaker form , and I sent mail to everyone whohadn't filled out a speaker form , and they 're slowly s trickling in .Professor F: So the relevance of the speaker form here , sGrad D: It 's for labeling the extractedaudio files .Professor F: Oh , OK .Grad D: By speaker ID and microphone type .Professor F: Wasn't like whether they were giving us permission to use their digitsor something .Grad D: No , I spoke with Jane about that and we sort of decided that it 's probably not an issue that {disfmarker} We edit out any of the errorsanyway . Right ? So the there are no errors in the digits ,Professor F: Yeah .Grad D: you 'll always read the string correctly . So I can't imagine why anyone wouldcare . So the other topic with digits is uh , Liz would like to elicit different prosodics , and so we tried last week with them written out in English . And it just didn'twork at all because no one grouped them together . So it just sounded like many many more lines instead of anything else . So in conversations with Liz and uhJane we decided that if you wrote them out as numbers instead of words it would elicit more phone number , social security number - like readings . The problemwith that is it becomes numbers instead of digits . When I look at this , that first line is " sixty one , sixty two , eighteen , eighty six , ten . " Um , and so thequestion is does anyone care ? Um , I 've already spoken with Liz and she feels that , correct me if I 'm wrong , that for her , connected numbers is fine ,PostdocE: Mm - hmm .Grad D: as opposed to connected digits . Um , I think two hours is probably fine for a test set , but it may be a little short if we actually wanna dotraining and adaptation and all that other stuff .Professor F: Yeah Um , do um you want different prosodics , so if you always had the same groupings youwouldn't like that ? Is that correct ?PhD G: Well , we actually figured out a way to {disfmarker}Grad D: Yeah , the {disfmarker} the {disfmarker}PhD G: the{disfmarker} the groupings are randomly generated .Professor F: No but , I was asking if that was something you really cared about because if it wasn't , itseems to me if you made it really specifically telephone groupings that maybe people wouldn't , uh , go and do numbers so much . You know if it if it 's{disfmarker}PhD A: Uh {disfmarker}PhD G: I think they may still do it , um ,Professor F: Maybe some , but I probably not so much .PhD B: What about putting ahyphen between the numbers in the group ?PhD G: And {disfmarker}Professor F: Right ? So if you {disfmarker} if {disfmarker} if you have uhGrad D: Six dashone , you mean ?Professor F: if you go six six six uh dash uh two nine three one .PhD G: I {disfmarker} well OK {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} it might help , Iwould like to g get away from having only one specific grouping .Professor F: That 's what I was asking , yeah .PhD G: Um , so if that 's your question ,ProfessorF: Yeah .PhD G: but I mean it seems to me that , at least for us , we can learn to read them as digitsPostdoc E: Yeah .PhD G: if that 's what people want . I{disfmarker} I 'mPostdoc E: Yeah .PhD G: don't think that 'd be that hard to read them as single digits .Postdoc E: I agree .PhD G: Um , and it seems like thatmight be better for you guys since then you 'll have just more digit data ,Grad D: Right .PhD G: and that 's always a good thing .Grad D: Yep .PhD G: It 's a littlebit better for me too because the digits are easier to recognize . They 're better trained than the numbers .Grad D: So we could just , uh , put in the instructions "read them as digits " .Professor F: Right .PhD G: Right . Right , read them as single digits , so sixty - one w is read as six one ,Postdoc E: Mm - hmm .PhD G: andif people make a mistake we {disfmarker}Grad D: How about " O " versus " zero " ?Professor F: I mean , the other thing is we could just bag it because it 's{disfmarker} it 's {disfmarker} it 's - I 'm not worrying about it I mean , because we do have digits training data that we have from uh from OGI . I 'm sorry ,digits {disfmarker} numbers training that we have from OGI , we 've done lots and lots of studies with that . And um .PhD G: But it 's nice to get it in this roomwith the acousProfessor F: Yeah .PhD G: I mean {disfmarker} for {disfmarker} it 's {disfmarker}Professor F: No , no , I guess what I 'm saying is thatGrad D:Just let them read it how they read it .Professor F: to some extent maybe we could just read them {disfmarker} have them read how {disfmarker} how they readit and it just means that we have to expand our {disfmarker} our vocabulary out to stuff that we already have .PhD G: Right . Well that 's fine with me as long as{disfmarker} It 's just that I didn't want to cause the people who would have been collecting digits the other way to not have the digits .Professor F: Yeah . Wecan go back to the other thing later .PhD G: So {disfmarker}Professor F: I mean we s we {disfmarker} we 've {disfmarker} We can do this for awhilePhD G: OK.Professor F: and then go back to digits for awhile , or um . Do yo I mean , do you want {disfmarker} do you want this {disfmarker} Do you need training data oradaptation data out of this ?PhD G: OK .Professor F: How much of this do you need ? with uh the {disfmarker}PhD G: It 's actually unclear right now . I justthought well we 're {disfmarker} if we 're collec collecting digits , and Adam had said we were running out of the TI forms , I thought it 'd be nice to have them ingroups , and probably , all else being equal , it 'd be better for me to just have single digitsProfessor F: OK .PhD G: since it 's , you know , a recognizer 's gonnado better on those anyway , um , and it 's more predictable . So we can know from the transcript what the person said and the transcriber , in general .ProfessorF: OK , well if you prePhD G: But if they make mistakes , it 's no big deal if the people say a hundred instead of " one OO " . and also w maybe we can just letthem choose " zero " versus " O " as they {disfmarker} as they like because even the same person c sometimes says " O " and sometimes says " zero " indifferent context ,Professor F: Yeah .PhD G: and that 's sort of interesting . So I don't have a Specific need cuz if I did I 'd probably try to collect it , you know ,without bothering this group , but If we can try it {disfmarker}Grad D: OK so {disfmarker} so I can just add to the instructions to read it as digits not asconnected numbers .Postdoc E: Mm - hmm .PhD G: Right , and you can give an example like , you know , " six {disfmarker} sixty - one would be read as six one" .Grad D: Right .Postdoc E: Mm - hmm . And i actually it 's no more artificial than what we 've been doing with words .PhD G: And I think people will get it.Postdoc E: I 'm sure people can adapt to this , read it single .PhD G: Right , right .Postdoc E: The spaces already bias it toward being separated .PhD G: It 's justeasier to read .Postdoc E: And I know I 'm gonna find this easier than words .PhD G: Right .Grad D: Oh yeah , absolutely , cognitively it 's much easier .PhD G:OK I also had a hard {disfmarker} hard time with the words ,Professor F: Yeah .PhD G: but then we went back and forth on that . OK , so let 's give that atryGrad D: OK . And is the spacing alright or do you think there should be more space between digits and groups ?Professor F: OK .PhD G: and {disfmarker}GradD: Or is that alright ?PhD G: I mean what do other people think cuz you guys are reading {comment} them .Postdoc E: I think that i it 's fine .Grad D: OK.Postdoc E: I it {disfmarker} it {disfmarker} to me it looks like you 've got the func the idea of grouping and you have the grou the idea of separationPhD G: OK.Postdoc E: and , you know , it 's just a matter of u i the instructions , that 's all .PhD G: Great . OK .Grad D: And I think there are about ten different goupingpatternsProfessor F: Let 's try it .PhD G: Well let 's give it a try .Grad D: isn't that right , Liz ? That we did .PhD G: Righ - right , and you just {disfmarker} they're randomly {nonvocalsound} generated and randomly assigned to digits .Postdoc E: I did {disfmarker} Mm - hmm .Professor F: So we have{disfmarker}Postdoc E: Go ahead .Professor F: Sorry , I {disfmarker} I was just gonna say , so we have in the vicinity of forty hours of {disfmarker} ofrecordings now . And you 're saying two hours , uh , is digits , so that 's roughly the ratio then ,Grad D: Yep .Professor F: something like twenty {disfmarker}twenty to one . Which I guess makes {disfmarker} makes sense . So if we did another forty hours of recordings then we could get another couple hours of this.Grad D: Right .Professor F: Um , yeah like you say , I think a couple hours for a {disfmarker} for a {disfmarker} for a test {disfmarker} test set 's OK . It 'd benice to get , you know , more later because we 'll {disfmarker} we might use {disfmarker} use this up , uh , in some sense ,Postdoc E: Mm - hmm .Grad D: Right.Professor F: but {disfmarker} but uh {disfmarker}Postdoc E: Yeah , I also would like to argue for that cuz it {disfmarker} it seems to me that , um , there 's areal strength in having the same test replicated in {disfmarker} a whole bunch of times and adding to that basic test bank .Grad D: Right .Postdoc E: Hmm ? Cuzthen you have , you know , more and more , u chances to get away from random errors . And I think , um , the other thing too is that right now we have sort of astratified sample with reference to dialect groups , and it might be {disfmarker} there might be an argument to be made for having uh f for replicating all of the


Project Manager: Hi Kate . {vocalsound} Okay , carry on .Industrial Designer: Just just carry on . {vocalsound}Project Manager: {vocalsound} Alright um this isthe beginning of the third meeting , the conceptual design meeting . Um our agenda should be um that we're opening the meeting , I have {disfmarker} theminutes from the previous meeting are on the shared f drive at this point . Um and we should each have a presentation to make . Um we have certain decisionsto make and we have forty minutes total . It's twenty five after two at the moment , so forty minutes is five after three , {vocalsound} um which I'll be keepingan eye on the clock for us . Okay . {vocalsound} Um there are the decisions we have to turn to , but we'll come back to them in a minute after I take us to theminutes of the previous meeting . Right um as we remember , I opened the meeting , the four of us were present , the meeting {disfmarker} the first meeting'sminutes were reviewed and approved . Um Sarah , you presented a marketing research report um which pretty much rep represented that fifteen to thirty fiveyear olds uh it has to be hand-held , power , channel , volume , number keys , possibly a speech recognition . And then Steph did a second presentation um thatthose functions plus streamlining them with big user-friendly keys that were easy to use . I think all of us agreed with those things . Kate presented a workingdesign of {disfmarker} going after {disfmarker} going over the basics on the whiteboard um that it should be a simple mass-produced device , because of thetwelve and a half Pence cost . Um but we did talk about possibly using rechargeable batteries and having a docking place as a selling point . Um and the newrequirements that it for {disfmarker} be for T_V_ only um and that it include the l so slogan and colour of the uh corporate design be included . Um {vocalsound}the corporate image . So we agreed that the target market would be fifteen to thirty five with more money than sense , that were decision makers . Alternativelyit would be a manufacturer to enclose it with the T_V_ , but it still should meet those parameters . Um and that the function we agreed was volume , power ,numbers , enter , channels , a way to move between channels , easy to use and hand-held . {vocalsound} Um at that point we agreed that Sarah would look atthe current cost of competition , what what do the current ones sell for . Um and Steph was gonna look at ec ergonomics . Kate was gonna look at cost andfeasibility of the various possibilities that we discussed . And I was to type up these minutes and work on the final report . Is this a fair presentation of what ourlast meeting was ?User Interface: Yeah .Industrial Designer: Mm-hmm .User Interface: Yes .Project Manager: Okay . Right . So we're ready to close that and goback to our {disfmarker} That one . Right . We're up to the point of the {disfmarker} Go back . Um {vocalsound} the three presentations . So we're going to pullthe plug on me and turn to Sarah . Is that okay ? Is that alright with everybody else ?Industrial Designer: Mm-hmm . {vocalsound}User Interface: Yep .ProjectManager: Especially since Kate asked to be last . {vocalsound} Sarah , I'm sorry if I misspelled your name , I didn't know whether it was S_A_R_A_ or{vocalsound} S_A_R_H_ .Marketing: {vocalsound} {vocalsound} I respond to either .Project Manager: You respond to whatever you get , huh ?{vocalsound}Marketing: No worries .Project Manager: Okay . Um , did you do your {disfmarker} Hit {disfmarker}User Interface: Yeah , {gap}Project Manager:Ah , there it is . Ta-da .Marketing: Okay , first thing I want to address is um one of the points that Florence brought up , which was uh current cost of thecompetition devices , similar to the ones that Stephanie uh showed us and and they're uh twenty to sixty Euros , depending on uh branding .User Interface: Right.Marketing: Some of them that have a higher brand recognition are on the more expensive end . But I think that with the current um price that we're searchingfor , we're well within , even on the lower end , of the uh of the market .Project Manager: Mm 'kay .Marketing: But I'm going to move on to more interesting um{vocalsound} more vibrant things . {vocalsound} So , I investigated the remote control market in greater detail , and my uh {disfmarker} the theme of what Iwas to work on was uh trend watch .User Interface: {vocalsound}Marketing: And {vocalsound}Project Manager: 'Kay .User Interface: {vocalsound}IndustrialDesigner: {vocalsound} Sorry . {vocalsound}User Interface: {vocalsound}Marketing: {vocalsound}Project Manager: {vocalsound}User Interface:{vocalsound}Industrial Designer: I'm glad to see the marketing budget is being so well spent on {vocalsound} {gap} . {vocalsound}Marketing:{vocalsound}Project Manager: {vocalsound}Marketing: {vocalsound} I know that you all are a distance from cutting edge marketing research ,IndustrialDesigner: {vocalsound}Marketing: so you know , I'm just gonna try to cloak it in really professional terms here . What's hot , fruit and veg . Spongy .IndustrialDesigner: {vocalsound}User Interface: {vocalsound}Marketing: And this is all over the catwalks , Paris , Milan , and I'm talking about clothing , furniture , shoes. {vocalsound}Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}Marketing: This is really interesting change from past years ,Project Manager: Mm .User Interface:{vocalsound}Marketing: because it is much more organic , um some would say approachable . {vocalsound} And I think if we're to refashion our view of what wewant in a remote control , we should perhaps think about incorporating technologically interesting fabrics and some of the bold colours into a simple handset . So. {vocalsound} I also did a little research on um {vocalsound} what again are the most important priorities in uh decision making about uh purchasing . Fancy .Functional is out . And f the fancy , and that's exactly the term , I'm I'm thinking polished , elegant , {vocalsound} you know , kind of innovative , but a cut above. This is twice as important as the next finding , which is technologically innovative . This is interesting , 'cause I think in the last meeting we were talking abouttechnology as being so important , but maybe what's innovative is having it simple with um with uh technologically {vocalsound} superior fabrics or uh , youknow , designed in interesting substances . Ease of use . Again , pretty low , I mean it's the top three , but each of the uh fancy and technologically innovative arefar more important . So I think we should cloak the streamlined remote control device in a series of {vocalsound} fruit {vocalsound} fruit themed sleeves .UserInterface: {vocalsound}Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} {vocalsound} I think that's a good idea . Don't you ? {vocalsound}Marketing: {vocalsound} Y yeah ,you know {disfmarker}Project Manager: It sounds like the the uh covers that they use for the remote , you know , your t your cell phone .User Interface: Yes.Marketing: Exactly . {vocalsound} Exactly . I was thinking though that instead of having something uh like patterned , you know , so , you know , somethingsimilar to a summer dress . {gap} you know , it would have like fruit and veg , is that we actually make these spongy .Project Manager: Mm .Marketing: Theycould be {disfmarker} ini initially I thought we could start with kind of um fruit that would suit kind of uh a long uh hand-held , so banana , pineapple and pear .Um it could actually {disfmarker} the sleeve could {vocalsound} take up a lot of the {vocalsound} development and the remote control , we'd just need to getreductionist on it . {vocalsound}User Interface: {vocalsound} {vocalsound}Marketing: They could be interchangeable , they're spongy , that goes back toergonomic , and the youngsters love 'em , fun for the whole family , everyone can have their own . So what we're talking about is changing . this concept .Everyone has a T_V_ remote , but then we add in the fact that they could each have their own individual fruit .User Interface: {vocalsound}Marketing:{vocalsound} That's what's hot on the catwalks . {vocalsound} So , this is my {disfmarker} This is what I'm thinking .Project Manager: Hmm .User Interface:{vocalsound} {vocalsound}Project Manager: Uh-huh mm . In most families , don't {disfmarker} isn't the remote {disfmarker} is a remote .Marketing: Y yeah ,but I think I think what this would allow is perhaps a person in the family who had the most opinion about it {disfmarker} we all need a remote ,Project Manager:Mm .Marketing: but the person who is really perhaps active in personalising , I'm thinking the teenager , the {disfmarker} someone fifteen to thirty five would goout and get this additional thing the same way as you mentioned that people would get the cell phone covers .User Interface: {vocalsound} So when your dad'ssitting there , overriding your decision , going no we're gonna watch this , you can bring out your own remote and be like zap , no we're gonna watch this.Marketing: {vocalsound} Yeah . W and {vocalsound} plus I think {disfmarker}Project Manager: Mm . Well actually some households do have three and fourT_V_sMarketing: {vocalsound} Uh yeah .User Interface: {gap}Project Manager: and they would have a remote for each one ,Marketing: Yeah .Project Manager:so .Marketing: Yeah . So this is an idea and I I {disfmarker} you know , this is exactly what the research has uh has shown . So I really open this up to uh anyother feedback . This {vocalsound} spongy fruit and veg .Industrial Designer: Yeah , I I think we're gonna have some trouble when we get down to thecomponent design on this .Marketing: Thanks . {vocalsound} Alright .Project Manager: Hmm .Industrial Designer: Spongy is gonna be difficult , I'm afraid .UserInterface: Yep . {vocalsound} And as for as for um well budgeting as well , if we're gonna have lots of different interchangeable components .Project Manager:Hmm . {vocalsound}Marketing: {vocalsound} I I just have my ear to the market , guys . {gap} {disfmarker}User Interface: {vocalsound} Is this {gap} to themarket {gap} ?Industrial Designer: Yeah , I mean basically we can make these things out of wood , titanium , plastic or rubber . I suppose rubber is the closestto spongy ,Marketing: Is spongiest , yeah .Industrial Designer: yeah .Marketing: That would add {disfmarker}Industrial Designer: I was thinking titanium myself.User Interface: I was thinking titanium , I was thinking it's just {disfmarker} I have been influenced by pictures of iPods , and they're also minimalist and shiny.Marketing: Mm-hmm . {vocalsound} They are and they they would fulfil the uh first um priority , which is fancy . I think many of us would associate those withfancy . Something else we could do is uh call it something that's fruit and veg oriented . We could call it uh {disfmarker} {vocalsound} The name .ProjectManager: Are we talking about the device itself or the c or a cover for the device that would be an interchangeable cov cover as a separate product ?Marketing:{vocalsound} Well it would be uh a a very simple product that would have a spongy sleeve that would be interchangeable . So {disfmarker}Project Manager:Perhaps perhaps that desi that particular suggestion needs to go back to managementUser Interface: Yeah , but it's kind of pointless , isn't it ?Project Manager:


Project Manager: That should hopefully do the trick , um . 'Kay . Sorry about the small delay . Falling a little bit behind schedule . And that's uh fifteen twenty five. Okay . So just to try and roughly go over what we agreed in the last one , um we're gonna go for something uh uh how was it ? Uh The new black , I believe.Marketing: {gap} .Project Manager: Um something that looks good 'cause that seems to be in preference to actual functionality in the end , though we shouldnever avoid functionality , of course . Uh many of our components are gonna be standard , off the shelf , but it seemed like we were gonna require at least anadvanced chip and we were still very much for the idea of using an L_C_D_ display . Um other things were we were hoping to use rubber , most likely gonna bedouble curved , etcetera . Okay . So um due to your hard work , we might as well let the uh two designers go first , and uh show us the prototype .User Interface:Okay , it's a {disfmarker}Project Manager: Quite how the best way to do this is , I'm not sure ,Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}User Interface: {gap} I think ifwe both step upProject Manager: but {disfmarker}User Interface: and uh outline our ideas . Okay . Now do {disfmarker} uh doing the prototype gave us a bitmore insight into the ergonomics of the design . Um for one thing , it turned out that the only point at which it needs to be articulated for handedness is um is h iis down here for the uh L_E_D_ . As it turned out , the whole thing transfers from the right to left hand fairly well from the point of view of operating the uhfunction buttons and joystick , though it might be an idea to be able to a adjust the positions for the base of the joystick just a little bit for uh {disfmarker}ProjectManager: Okay .User Interface: {gap} ju just a thought . You could simply have a slightly ovoid shaped joystick that could then just be turn uh twisted round , sothat the uh sticky uh so that the bit that sticks out a bit more is on one side or the other . But as you as you see with the uh {vocalsound} with holding it in theleft hand , the L_ uh the L_C_D_ is nowhere useful , so that would need to be articulated uh if we're going to retain {gap} ergonomic design . Um now I I gotyour note about uh keeping the cost down .Project Manager: I'm afraid yeah .User Interface: Yeah .Project Manager: We'll go into that a bit more ,User Interface:{gap} this design could be done with um with uh plastic casing .Project Manager: but please go on .User Interface: Though I would recommend around the grippart here in the middle , having maybe just a rubber grip over that which would allow for a slightly more sort of bio-morphic form , and a bit more ergonomic aswell . As for the um as for the single curve , um well this edge and this edge , like I say it would be nice to have some curvature to it , but it's not absolutelynecessary . Really the curve that's most needed is the underside so that the jo so that the joystick rests over the the edge of the hand like this . Um and you havethe uh transmitter here and a wee speaker for the uh for the uh for the uh fi uh for the remote control finder . So .Project Manager: {vocalsound}User Interface:Any further comments ?Industrial Designer: Um obviously it's gonna be bulkier than how it looks , because it's gonna be flat on one side , so the L_C_D_ will be ssticking down like this , won't it ?User Interface: Mm-hmm . Yeah .Industrial Designer: 'Cause it {disfmarker} you can't get it curved .User Interface: Yeah , Imean theIndustrial Designer: Uh because of costs .User Interface: uh {disfmarker} Yeah .Industrial Designer: And it's plastic as well , so it won't be ascomfortable on the hand .User Interface: Yeah . I mean with the with the rubber design it could i you know it could pretty much mould very much to the to theuser's hand .Project Manager: Mm .User Interface: One nice wee feature if we could if we could still do the rubber , I though of was to have {gap} the uh rubberextend beyond the end of the uh {vocalsound} of the rigid substructure . So it has a wee sort of tail that you just drape over your wrist so it stays in positionnicely .Project Manager: {vocalsound}User Interface: Mm . Lovely . Um .Industrial Designer: Yeah , {gap} . {vocalsound}Project Manager: Okay , yeah . Great .Um .Marketing: Right . Yeah I've got a {disfmarker} if you load up my evaluation document .Project Manager: Yeah , okay {gap} .User Interface: Okay .ProjectManager: Excellent work .Marketing: Mm .Project Manager: Um .Marketing: Uh evaluation . {vocalsound} Basic point uh have a list of criteria that we need torate the prototype by . {vocalsound} Um then we will {disfmarker} it's a seven s um seven seven step kinda evaluation process . So um not seven steps , sevenscale . So after we've finished doing all the ratings for each criteria , we average that and that will give us some type of uh confidence in our prototype . And uhthe criteria {gap} based on Real Reactions' kinda goals and policies , marketing strategies , and also those I put together from the user requirements phase . 'Kay. Um if you flip the {disfmarker} {vocalsound} So , those are the criteria . And uh perhaps I could have put 'em a bit better , but you notice a few things thatwe've totally abandoned , which means {vocalsound} that uh the product will score very badly on some of those points .Project Manager:{vocalsound}Marketing: {vocalsound} Put it mildly . So we have um true ? One , t Seven , eight , oh . Fourth . Okay , so we have to go through each point . If weimagine it's actually straight , and just give it a a score . So um how well would you say the prototype is uh how well have we realised the dream of being able tostop remotes from from being lost , or to be able to find them once they are lost . I mean , uh is the homing thing still {disfmarker} the locator , is that still{disfmarker}User Interface: Yeah , that's still part of the design .Marketing: Sure . And Adam , we can keep that in ?Project Manager: Yeah , I believe so . So Imean I don't think anybody could actually stop a remote being lost ,Marketing: Okay .Project Manager: 'cause that would mean doing something about thehuman element ,Marketing: {vocalsound} Sure .Project Manager: but I'd like to think that we've done something about finding the damn thing once we have.Marketing: TUser Interface: Mm . Mm . And making it a bright colour helpsMarketing: Sure .User Interface: with the {disfmarker} personally I would have gonefor purple {gap} . {vocalsound}Project Manager: {vocalsound}Marketing: Mm . Bright colour . So we still have that noise thing , yeah ?User Interface: Mm-hmm.Marketing: Os on a scale of one to seven , how would you guys rate it for finding {gap} finding it once it's lost ?User Interface: I'd say number one .Marketing:Number one ?Industrial Designer: One . Yeah . {vocalsound}Marketing: Okay . Number number one for the first criteria .User Interface: I think w if it was justthe sounder then th {gap} I mean something I've found with uh w w with say tr trying to find uh a cordless phone or a m mobile , you can hear it , but you can'tquite pin it dow pin down where it is .Marketing: Yeah you can tell what room the mobile is {disfmarker}User Interface: BuIndustrial Designer: What about{disfmarker} what if the the volume on the T_V_'s turned up massively and uh you just wanna turn down the volume {gap} can't find remote . Suppose youhave to go to the T_V_ and do it manually . Mm .Marketing: Yeah .User Interface: Yeah .Project Manager: Mm . UmMarketing: Yeah .Industrial Designer: Like yyou wouldn't hear the speaker {gap} .Marketing: Mm-hmm .Project Manager: just before we go through all of the steps here , um well what we'll do isMarketing:You wanna say something ?Project Manager: um if we can look at the criteria you're gonna evaluate , and then we'll come back to the product evaluation if that'salright .Marketing: That's fine .Project Manager: Yeah , is that {disfmarker}Marketing: Oh that's that's fine .Project Manager: Um so is there anything here thatyou that you wanted to cover as in the criteria that you've covered ? And then we'll come back pretty much promptly to this .Marketing: What do you mean cr isthere anything I wanna {disfmarker}Project Manager: I is there any of these criteria that need any explaining ? Or is there anything that yous thought tha reallywould stand out compared to the others ?Marketing: Um , a few . {vocalsound} Something I neglected from my initial research is that Real Reactions has a a goalstrategy that all of the products be inspired by material fashion , and clothing fashion . That is why fruit and veg being popular in the home and in clothing wasimportant and they want all their products to be somehow inspired by current trends in fashion . So they say we put the fashion in electronics , well they reallymean it they they're very big on fashion ,Project Manager: Okay .Marketing: so . That's this bit right here . And uh this bit is this one easy to use for visitors or foranybody ? I guess it's just the same as saying easy to use interface , so it's kinda condensed into one . And we can come back to it , you said .Project Manager:Okay .Marketing: So .Project Manager: No and which we will do very very shortly . Um . Okay . Slight problem we had was that we have an amazing four Eurosover budget for what we were hoping to do . Um most of it stems from the use of the L_C_D_ which I think in the end accounted for about half of our expenditurebecause of course we required a chip as well . Um the only way to get this down was either to ditch the a L_C_D_ , at which point we've removed a large part ofhow we were gonna interface , {gap} require more buttons , etcetera . Or what we did was that we um we as in I as I was quickly going over it was altering theactual structure . Um changing it to plastic and a solid unit with a single curve design would allow us to come back into the um proposed costs and we're justscraping it in , we've got point two of a Euro left over there . So we're just managing it really . Even then as well , um there was no criteria technically defined fora joystick so I've used what I think's appropriate . With any luck that won't mean that we've incurred more cost than we can actually afford to . It blows a lot ofour really good ideas kind of slightly to one side , for example the possibility of having a U_S_B_ connection is definitely not viable now . Um .Marketing: Differentlanguages ?Project Manager: That should still be viable . We've got an advanced chip , we've got the use of the L_C_D_ . So being able to communicate inmultiple languages is still very much a possibility .Marketing: Yeah . {vocalsound}Project Manager: Um but what's something we need to decide on is how we'regonna go from here . {vocalsound} We do need to try and come up with an idea which could be continued with other people if need be . Um . We can I can bringthe excel up sheet up and uh show you if you wish um . I really think as m much as it pains me is that we might have to go with plastic and some kind of soliddesign , possibly meaning that the L_C_D_ wouldn't be in this perfect place . It might be s stuck like slightly between what would be good for left handed andwhat would be good for a right handed person .User Interface: Mm-hmm I suppose o one thing that could be done is h {vocalsound} is have it um circular andhave it s {vocalsound} so that the uh the pink {gap} actually goes a bit over the pinkie finger . Mm .Project Manager: Okay .Marketing: Mm .User Interface: So


The Chair (Hon. Anthony Rota (NipissingTimiskaming, Lib.)): I call this meeting to order. Welcome to the 14thmeeting of the House of Commons SpecialCommittee on the COVID-19 Pandemic.  This will be a hybrid meeting. Some members will be participating via video conference and some will be participating inperson. In order to ensure that those joining the meeting via video conference can be seen and heard by those in the chamber, two screens have been set up oneither side of the Speaker's chair, and members in the chamber can listen to the floor audio or to interpretation using their earpiece at their desk. Beforespeaking, please wait until I recognize you by name, and please direct your remarks through the chair. For those joining via video conference, I would like toremind you to leave your mike on mute when you are not speaking. Also, please note that if you want to speak in English, you should be on the English channel.If you want to speak French, you should be on the French channel. Should you wish to alternate between the two languages, you should change the channel tothe language that you are speaking each time you switch languages. Should members participating by video conference need to request the floor outside theirdesignated speaking times, they should activate their mic and state that they have a point of order. Those in the Chamber can rise in the usual way. Please notethat today's proceedings will be televised in the same way as a typical sitting of the House. We'll now proceed to ministerial announcements. I understand thatthere are none. Now we'll proceed to the tabling of documents. Mr.LeBlanc has a document he wants to table. Go ahead, Mr.LeBlanc.Hon. Dominic LeBlanc: Mr.Chair, I have the honour to table, in both official languages, a report entitled "Democracy Matters, Debates Count: A report on the 2019 Leaders' DebatesCommission and the future of debates in Canada. Mr. Chair, on behalf of all of us, I want to thank the Right Honourable David Johnston for his continuedservice.The Chair: Good. We'll now proceed to the presenting of petitions, for a period not exceeding 15 minutes. I would like to remind members that anypetition presented during a meeting of the special committee must have already been certified by the clerk of petitions. For members participating in person, weask that you please come to the front and drop off your certificate at the table once the petition has been presented. In presenting petitions, the first presentertoday is Mr. Genuis.Mr. Garnett Genuis (Sherwood ParkFort Saskatchewan, CPC): Thank you, Mr. Chair. I'm pleased to be presenting a petition in support of BillS-204. This is a bill in the Senate, put forward by Senator Salma Ataullahjan. It would make it a criminal offence for a person to go abroad and receive an organfor which there has not been consent by the donor. It also creates a mechanism by which someone could be deemed inadmissible to Canada if they were involvedin organ harvesting and trafficking. This bill is designed to confront and address the horrific practice by which, in certain casesfor instance, inside Chinaminoritycommunities or dissidents may be targeted and have their organs removed as they're killed and used for transplantation. Petitioners are supportive of Bill S-204,and they want to see it passed as soon as possible.The Chair: Our next petition will go to Mr. Viersen.Mr. Arnold Viersen (Peace RiverWestlock, CPC): Mr. Chair, Iam presenting a petition today signed by Canadians who are concerned that Bill C-7 removes safeguards from the current euthanasia regime, including themandatory 10-day waiting period. Mr. Chair, these people who are signing this petition would like to see an improvement in assisted living, not assisted dying.TheChair: We'll now go to Ms. Zahid.Mrs. Salma Zahid (Scarborough Centre, Lib.): Thank you, Mr. Chair. I would like to present an e-petition signed by over 40people. It asks that the Government of Canada recognize the Republic of Somaliland as an autonomous state that may result in foreign investments, direct accessof development aid, foreign aid for disaster relief and infrastructure development investment loans.The Chair: Now we'll proceed to Statements by Members for aperiod not exceeding 15 minutes. Each statement will be for a maximum of one minute. I remind members that if they exceed that time limit, they will beinterrupted.  Our first statement goes to Monsieur El-Khoury.Mr. Fayal El-Khoury (LavalLes les, Lib.): Mr.Chair, I thank the government for the way it hasmanaged this global crisis and its impact on Canadians. It has acted in a robust, rapid and very effective way. Our Prime Minister has been awarded the medal ofhonour, courage and humanity worldwide. Canada is one of the few countries that has acted in the best interests of its citizens and maintained their dignity inthese uncertain times. While addressing Canadians, our right honourable Prime Minister showed us leadership, the importance of transparency, and integrity. Hekept us united. His top priority was saving lives, along with finding realistic solutions regarding the economic impact on our daily life. Because of his outstandingleadership, we're admired across the world, which is another distinguished privilege of being Canadian. Thank you, Mr. Chair.The Chair: We'll now go to Mr.Epp.Mr. Dave Epp (Chatham-KentLeamington, CPC): COVID-19 has emptied food banks across Canada, even in an agricultural community like Chatham-Kent, soWes Thompson and James Rasmussen, along with Alysson Storey, Randi Bokor, Maureen Geddes, Chris and Terry Johnston, Jason King, Fannie Vavoulis andBrent Wilken, grew an idea into the community's largest-ever food drive. Project manager Morna McDonald estimates that over 3,000 volunteers ended uphelping in the May 16 Miracle. Residents put non-perishable foodstuffs on their doorsteps, with drop-off centres organized for rural areas. Volunteer groupstravelled predetermined routes while maintaining physical distancing. The community collected an amazing 678,000 pounds of food. They accidentally exceededby over 20% the record in the Guinness World Records book for collected food in a single day. Chatham-Kent has restocked their food banks and reaffirmed theircommunity pride. It's an honour to represent such a community.The Chair: We'll now go to Mr. Sarai. We have a point of order from Mr. d'Entremont.Mr. Chrisd'Entremont (West Nova, CPC): As much as I like seeing my friends on the big screens, there are no big screens yet, so we don't know who's on and who's noton. I was wondering if there was going to be a TV coming up soon here, Mr. Chair.The Chair: There is a technical issue, and it is being worked on. We're workingon it as we go through. The other alternative is that we suspend until we fix it. If it's okay, we'll just continue. I think we can all hear the members who arespeaking. This is one of the realities of a virtual or hybrid system. Our next statement will go to Mr. Sarai.Mr. Randeep Sarai (Surrey Centre, Lib.): Thank you, Mr.Chair, and mabuhay to all the Filipino Canadians across this country. In June across Canada we recognize Filipino Heritage Month to raise awareness andcelebrate the Filipino community. Here in Surrey Centre, and across Canada, the Filipino community makes important contributions to our cities and has helpedshape Canada into the vibrant multicultural society that we all know and love today. Now more than ever, during these challenging times we must come togetheras Canadians to celebrate the rich heritage and history of our Filipino neighbours. Throughout June, please join me in celebrating our fellow citizens of Filipinodescent by recognizing all the incredible ways in which they have contributed to making Canada a better place for all of us. Happy Filipino Heritage Month. Thankyou, Mr. Chair.The Chair: Mr.Perron.Mr. Yves Perron (BerthierMaskinong, BQ): Good afternoon, Mr.Chair. Today is World Milk Day, and I would like to recognizethe exceptional work and dedication shown by everyone in the industry. They ensure we have a nutritious, high quality product every day. Let's take part in thelocal consumption movement and rediscover the exceptional products of our dairy producers and processors. Enjoy the yogurts, cheeses and other productsbecause it's true that milk is good. I would also like to thank BrunoLetendre, outgoing chair of the Producteurs de lait du Qubec, and I congratulate the new chair,DanielGobeil. The dairy industry has been sacrificed several times in trade agreements. The government's broken promises are piling up. The payment ofcompensation is still uncertain. Action must be taken. The first step must be the direct allocation of import quotas to processors, and the second must be the fullpayment of the promised compensation. We demand a formal commitment from the government.The Chair: We'll now continue with Mr.Iacono.Mr. Angelo Iacono(Alfred-Pellan, Lib.): Mr.Chair, June is Italian Heritage Month. The situation is special this year, since Italy has been hard hit by COVID-19, with more than30,000deaths. Like me, many Italian Canadians still have family and friends in Italy, and the news has sometimes been very difficult to take, yet that has notdetracted from the great co-operation that exists between Canada and Italy.  Today I would like to highlight the solidariet italiana in our community. During thepandemic, Canadians of Italian descent have been united to support anziani, our famiglie and our amici in Italy by participating in the fundraising campaignCOVID-19 AiutiAMO lItalia to support the Italian Red Cross response activities. I send a special salute to to my cugino Giuseppe, who is still on the road torecovery from COVID-19. The Chair: We'll continue with Mr. Kram.Mr. Michael Kram (ReginaWascana, CPC): Mr. Chair, I would like to acknowledge all of theorganizations in Saskatchewan and across Canada that are working hard to help small businesses adapt to the challenges of the current pandemic. In particular, Iwould like to thank the Regina Downtown Business Improvement District, or RDBID. As soon as the pandemic hit, RDBID launched a daily electronic newsletter tokeep their members informed of support programs, local initiatives and local success stories. They have used their social media channels on a daily basis topromote takeout and delivery services, online and curbside services offered by restaurants and retailers. They have also launched a number of their owninitiatives to help businesses access e-commerce. Through persistent communication and a lot of long hours, RDBID has helped businesses in downtown Reginato weather the storm. Because of their hard work, downtown Regina will come through this pandemic better than ever.The Chair: Mr.Lauzon now has the floor.Mr.Stphane Lauzon (ArgenteuilLa Petite-Nation, Lib.): Mr.Chair, high-speed Internet will be to the 21stcentury what electricity was to the 20th: an essential service.We are currently experiencing a drastic change in our morals, our consumption patterns and our socialization habits. We are turning to the Internet to read thenews, contact our friends and complete our purchases. Isolation associated with COVID-19 has only accelerated this trend. Unfortunately, not all regions ofCanada have reliable, affordable, high-speed access. I would like to reassure the citizens of my riding about the efforts that we are making as a government, but


Sian Thomas: Bore da. Unfortunately, the Chair, Lynne Neagle, is unable to attend today's meeting. Therefore, in accordance with Standing Order 17.22, I call fornominations for a temporary Chair, for the duration of the meeting.Julie Morgan AM: I nominate John Griffiths.Sian Thomas: Any further nominations? I thereforedeclare that John Griffiths has been appointed temporary Chair, and I invite him to chair for the duration of today's meeting.John Griffiths AM: Thank you verymuch. I thank the Members for that. Welcome, everyone, to this meeting of the Children, Young People and Education Committee. The first item on our agendatoday is apologies, substitutions, declarations of interest. Obviously, Lynne Neagle isn't able to be with us today. We haven't received any other apologies. Arethere any declarations of interest? No. We will move on then to item 2 on our agenda, the continuation of our inquiry into targeted funding to improve educationaloutcomes, and evidence session 8. And I'm very pleased to welcome Estyn here this morning to give evidence to the committee. Would you like to introduceyourselves for the record, please?Meilyr Rowlands: Meilyr Rowlands, chief inspector.Claire Morgan: Claire Morgan, strategic director.Simon Brown: Simon Brown,strategic director.John Griffiths AM: Okay. Thank you. And welcome again. If it's okay, we'll move straight into questions—we have quite a number of questions toget through this morning. Firstly, Llyr.Llyr Gruffydd AM: Thank you, Chair, and good morning. I just want to start by asking about your perception of how schoolsare using the pupil development grant funding, and to what extent they are genuinely targeting that funding exclusively towards children eligible for free schoolmeals.Meilyr Rowlands: Thank you for the question. This grant has been targeted far better by now than it was originally. Estyn has made several reportsregarding the effectiveness of the grant, and, really, going back to before this specific grant, to a similar grant, called RAISE. At the start of this grant, the fundingwas often spent on tackling underachievement, rather than dealing with the underachievement of children who are eligible for free school meals specifically. But,over a period of time, we have seen that it is targeted much better by now. That's not to say that the targeting is working perfectly still, and I think that we areseeing examples where the targeting isn't going just to children who receive free school meals. Schools sometimes interpret poverty in a slightly wider way thanthat. In terms of what schools are doing with the grant, we have given evidence to you of the kinds of things that they are doing. They are tracking progress ofpupils, they are trying to improve attendance, they are trying to work with families and the community in general, they're doing work specifically to improvehow children are doing in exams, in key stage 4, specifically—a lot of funding is being spent on that—improving the confidence of students, taking students onextra-curricular activities, improving literacy and numeracy. Those are the kinds of activities they're being used for.Llyr Gruffydd AM: Because the research byIpsos MORI and the Wales Institute of Social and Economic Research, Data and Methods has shown that there is some kind of blurring—I think that's the termthat they use—in terms of who is eligible. But you are relatively comfortable with the fact that there is sufficient targeting happening. You referred to the fact thatit is used, perhaps, to reach a slightly wider cohort than just those who are eligible for free school meals, but you do feel that that balance, from your experience,is acceptable.Meilyr Rowlands: Yes, certainly, it has improved a great deal. When I was looking at this initially, the targeting wasn’t happening at all. It was beingspent on children who were underachieving, and one of the things that we did notice in the first report was that much more funding was being spent on boys thangirls. And, of course, that raised the question immediately that it wasn't being spent then on children who are eligible for free school meals, becausethose numbers are equal. So, it wasn’t, but it has improved. There is a discussion about who exactly should have it and whether free school meals is the bestdefinition. So, I think that schools are perhaps not following that exactly, but within the spirit of the grant, I think I’m fairly comfortable. There is a specificquestion—I don’t know if you are going to ask this—regarding more able and talented pupils.Llyr Gruffydd AM: That's where I was going next.Meilyr Rowlands:So, if there is a cohort of pupils who are missing out on this, they are the more able and talented pupils who receive free school meals. There are a number ofreasons for this, I think. One of them is that there’s still some feeling that less able children should be receiving this grant, children who are underachieving.Schools don’t always identify underachievement of those more able children. It seems that they are doing okay, but if they were given more support, they woulddo even better.Llyr Gruffydd AM: So, is it a lack of awareness of the nature of the grant, and that the individual has to be targeted rather than just those who areunderachieving? Is that the problem? Or is it the regime that focuses on exam results and the need to draw those pupils who are underachieving up, rather thanincentivising those who are achieving to achieve better?Meilyr Rowlands: A bit of both, I'd say. And the third factor is identifying children who are more able. Ithink that we have a bit of work to do in that regard. I was in a conference for headteachers last week, where there was new data being discussed, and that datashowed the progress of children from a certain point, year 6 tests. I think that kind of data will be very useful, because what that data can do is help secondaryschools to identify more able children and that they are underachieving. Even though they're doing quite well, that kind of value-added data is very useful. So, Ithink that that will help as well.Llyr Gruffydd AM: Thank you.John Griffiths AM: Mark, did you want to pursue these matters further?Mark Reckless AM: Yes. I justwanted to ask about the more able and talented stream. It was good to read in your report an increased emphasis on this and to see your awareness of itsimportance in the PDG as well. Can I just ask—? Would you look at one area regarding schools' engagement with the Seren network, particularly for the moreable and talented, and what more Estyn can do through its inspection criteria and otherwise to encourage this from schools?Meilyr Rowlands: Well, I think Estynhas always been very strongly focused on improving the performance of more able pupils. For example, in last year's annual report I raised it, and a lot of thedebate around this now, I think, was generated by some of the things I've said in previous annual reports. We gave a lot of evidence to the—. Paul Flynn, I think,did the—no, who did the report? Paul Murphy did the report. So, we gave evidence to that. And on Seren, I'm particularly proud that my alma mater, JesusCollege, is a very strong supporter of the Seren work. So, I'm personally quite interested in the work of Seren. And we look at the performance of more ablepupils in all our inspections. It's a particular part of our inspection framework—looking at the relative performance of different groups. So, we look at the differentperformance of boys and girls, free school meals and non-free school meals, ethnic minorities, but we also look at the performance of more able pupils inparticular, and we question schools about how they provide for the more able pupils, and we've referred to Seren in several of our inspection reports.MarkReckless AM: And where schools work particularly hard to engage with Seren and take up opportunities from that and push as many pupils as appropriate to workwith that, is that something that you would recognise within your inspection reports? And, on the other side, where schools don't do that, is that something youwould pull them up on?Meilyr Rowlands: Yes, we've done that. We've done it in several reports.Claire Morgan: Throughout our inspections, we are looking for bestpractice, because part of our strategy is always to identify where there are weaknesses, but actually to point schools in the direction of where they can find asolution. So, capturing different approaches to more able and talented is part of the role of inspection.Mark Reckless AM: Thank you.Llyr Gruffydd AM: Justbriefly, you touched earlier on using the measure of those who are eligible for free school meals as a way to identify children from disadvantaged backgrounds sothat you can target this funding. Varied evidence has been given to us on this. Do you have an opinion on whether that's the best way?Meilyr Rowlands: Itcertainly is a good way of doing it. There is a strong correlation between children who underachieve and that measure, so it is a strong measure. But, there isscope to discuss how exactly it does work. For example, some people say that if you have received free school meals for a period of time and now you're notreceiving them, then perhaps you should still be receiving the funding for a period of time, for example. So, there are ways of fine-tuning that measure, I think.It's worth considering those approaches.John Griffiths AM: Thanks for that. We move on now to Michelle.Michelle Brown AM: Thank you. Good morning, everyone.You've reported that the proportion of schools making effective use of the PDG remains around two thirds of secondary and primary schools, meaning that a thirdare still not using that PDG effectively. Why do you think this is?Meilyr Rowlands: I think that sort of proportion broadly corresponds to the schools that don'thave particularly good leadership. I think, ultimately, all of these sorts of initiatives come down to strong leadership and effective leadership—that they know howto organise and use those grants effectively. One of the shortcomings that we often identify is evaluation—that money has been spent on a particular way of usingthe grant, but it has not been evaluated well. So, I think quite a lot of it is to do with generic leadership skills. But those are some of the specific shortcomings todo with evaluation.Michelle Brown AM: Are there any patterns by region or type of school in that?Meilyr Rowlands: I don't think there's any patterns that we'veidentified in terms of region.Claire Morgan: As Meilyr said, it's very strongly linked to leadership capacity.Michelle Brown AM: Okay. Thank you. What are the mosteffective uses of PDG, from your point of view? Is there something in particular that you think that schools should be focusing on?Meilyr Rowlands: I think there'sa lot of evidence on what constitutes good practice in this area. There's the Welsh Government guidance, there's our guidance, there's a lot of research—theSutton Trust toolkit—and they're the sorts of things I mentioned earlier. I think that more attention does need to be given to the community-focused element ofthis work. So, schools do a lot of things that they are in control of—the things I mentioned earlier: things like improving attendance, offering extra-curricularactivities, literacy and numeracy support, tracking pupils—all those sorts of things. But an important element of this, I think, is engaging with the learners, butalso with parents and the community. I think what we've found is that the most effective schools—the ones that really do make a big difference to this cohort of