Project Manager: Okay , all set ? Welcome to the conceptual design meeting .User Interface: Uh , okay .Industrial Designer: Yes .Project Manager: The agenda .The opening . I'll again be the secretary and make minutes , take minutes , uh and it will be three presentations , just like the last meeting . So um ,{vocalsound} who wants to start off ? Technical uh designer again ?User Interface: {vocalsound} Again .Project Manager: Okay .User Interface: Hmm .ProjectManager: Uh , yeah . Uh , before we begin it , I want to say I've I've put the minutes of the uh second meeting in the shared folder , but they're still not uh quiteokay . It uh it uh still some technical difficulties so the the first part of the minutes are very hard to read , because there are two documents that uh were layeredover each other .User Interface: Mm-hmm .Marketing: {vocalsound}Project Manager: So {disfmarker}Marketing: Okay .Project Manager: But uh , from now on Iwon't use my pen anymore , so will be p just {vocalsound} ordinary keyboard .User Interface: {vocalsound}Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}Marketing:{vocalsound}User Interface: Uh , may be better , yeah .Marketing: Keyboard work . Yeah .Project Manager: I think it {gap} will will be more uh easy for you toread the minutes .User Interface: Yeah .Marketing: Alright .Industrial Designer: Okay , when we talk about uh components design , um it's really about thematerial and the {disfmarker} and uh uh really the stuff we build uh the remote controls of . Um , a remote control consist of uh components and the componentsof a remote control consist of uh properties and material . We have to choose th uh these uh wisely and it could affect uh uh a kind of grow of {disfmarker} in uhin buying uh the remote controls . Um , the components of a remote control are of course uh the case . Uh the properties of the case , um it has to be solid uh inhard material like uh hard plastic uh with soft rubber for uh falling and and uh uh {disfmarker} yeah , it feels uh good in your hand .Marketing:{vocalsound}Industrial Designer: Mm the buttons has to be uh solid too , and the material is soft rubber . Uh I've got a uh email from the possibilities of RealReaction . Um uh they're telling me that um when we build uh a remote control of um of plastic or rubber , the uh buttons have to be uh rubber too . Mm{disfmarker} It's okay . Yeah . I when we use a rubbled {disfmarker} a doubled curved case , we must use a rubber push-buttons to {disfmarker} uh the therubber double-curved case is a is a t uh three-dimensional uh curve in the in the design , which is uh necessary when we want to be trendy . Uh {disfmarker}UmUser Interface: Oh .Industrial Designer: the energy source , uh I've got a lot of possibilities for that too . Um , uh the basic battery , which I thi prefer becauseof its uh its non uh non-depending of of of uh um {disfmarker} Uh here you have to have a hand uh {disfmarker} yeah , kinetic uh energy . Also in uh this one ,like in the watches , but a remote control can lie on a table for a day , and then you push uh a button and {disfmarker} so you don't have to uh walk with it allthe all the time . Mm , solar cells are also uh a bit weird for uh remote controls .Marketing: {vocalsound} {vocalsound}Project Manager: {vocalsound}{vocalsound}Industrial Designer: Um uh also the case material , uh I think that plastic is the is the best with rubber , because uh wood or titanium would also bea bit weird .User Interface: Oh titanium is probably trendy , I think . {gap} .Marketing: That's true , I guess . Yeah .User Interface: Well , maybe a little bitexpensive .Marketing: {vocalsound}User Interface: I don't know .Industrial Designer: Uh , they don't tell anything about the cost of uh titanium .Marketing: Huh.Industrial Designer: Um the chip {disfmarker} uh the chip set uh and the board is uh all off the shelf . Also , the speaker in the remote control , when we want toretrieve it . Um , the base station is also off the shelf , all the materials and the components are uh just available in uh in our uh factory . Mm , I've told about uhthe three first points . Mm , the simple electronical chip uh is is available uh with the LED transmitter uh transmitter . Uh , it's all uh off the shelf and even thespeaker and the wireless retriever are all uh available in our company . Um , another possibility . I uh yeah , I looked up on was uh the L_C_D_ displays . Couldbe uh something special to our uh remote control , and it's possible , but it only cost a bit more , but maybe it can be uh within the limits of twenty five Euros.Project Manager: Twelve and a half . Actually {disfmarker}Industrial Designer: Ah yeah .Marketing: Yeah .User Interface: Yeah , production cost .IndustrialDesigner: {vocalsound} I th I got an email with uh some examples and it {disfmarker} these were were the most trendiest one .User Interface:{vocalsound}Industrial Designer: You see uh a covers , which can be {disfmarker}Project Manager: What are those , t tooth uh brushes , or soUser Interface:{vocalsound}Industrial Designer: Um , I don't know . Um {disfmarker}Marketing: {vocalsound}Project Manager: But it's actually kind of uh {disfmarker}UserInterface: I {disfmarker}Project Manager: well , it resembles the design I had in mind for this projIndustrial Designer: Yes .Project Manager: You know the thecartoonish {vocalsound} Alessi kind of design .Marketing: Yep .Industrial Designer: Yes , maybe we can uh bri uh bring a couple of uh couple of types of uh{disfmarker}Project Manager: And we can we can steal their ideas .Marketing: {vocalsound}Industrial Designer: maybe a kind of uh whole uh um a whole set ofuh different uh remote controls .Project Manager: Huh .Industrial Designer: Maybe we can bring a whole line uh with uh with a {gap} huge variety of uhProjectManager: Well , it's a possibility , too .Industrial Designer: uh house uh stuff .User Interface: Different colours also .Industrial Designer: Like uh {vocalsound}maybe radios and uh television also uh in this in this {disfmarker} in the same style , but {disfmarker}Project Manager: Uh-uh .Marketing: {vocalsound} Yeah ,that'll be for the future , I guess .Project Manager: Okay .User Interface: {vocalsound} Yeah . {vocalsound}Project Manager: {vocalsound} Next time we're here. {vocalsound}Industrial Designer: Yes , because we have to uh {disfmarker} we have to {disfmarker} {vocalsound} we have to bring the logo and all the stuffuh back into it .Marketing: {vocalsound} Yeah . {vocalsound}Project Manager: Oh , okay .Marketing: Yeah . Definitely .Project Manager: Okay .User Interface:{vocalsound} Okay .Industrial Designer: Thank you . {vocalsound}Marketing: Alright .User Interface: {gap} uh {disfmarker}Marketing: {vocalsound} Yeah .That's okay .User Interface: Ah .Marketing: {vocalsound}User Interface: Well , I shall go to the next slide . UmMarketing: {vocalsound}User Interface: um , I stilldon't have any information about user requirements .Marketing: {vocalsound}User Interface: I was thinking about just uh the basic functions and I got uh{disfmarker}Project Manager: Oh , we decided upon that in the last meeting . Didn't we ?User Interface: Yeah , but but then wh I don't know when there are newuser requirements .Project Manager: Oh , okay . Well , tha I didn't receive any new requirements or somethiUser Interface: I ha I ha I have the I have{disfmarker}Project Manager: Just {disfmarker}User Interface: nothing .Project Manager: no , but we decided to use only b basic functions only .User Interface:Well , I have here a couple of basic functions I could think of .Project Manager: Okay .User Interface: I dunno if they're {disfmarker} maybe a little bit more , but{disfmarker}Project Manager: Well we {disfmarker} maybe we can think of that later . W just {disfmarker}User Interface: Yeah .Project Manager: these are theones you already summed up in the {disfmarker}User Interface: Yeah , I I uh {vocalsound} well , I pointed them out here , just to make it a little bit easier.Project Manager: Okay .User Interface: Um Another function uh is {disfmarker} of course we already discuss it on the side . Um , I don't know what costs of it .Uh , I've no idea about it . Uh , I was also looking for what you said , for {disfmarker} I got an email uh uh about uh L_C_D_ in in in front of the remote control .I don't know if that's a good idea , or maybe it's a little bit too much for twelve and a half . Production .Project Manager: Yeah .User Interface: If we got alreadyuh something like a base .Industrial Designer: Uh-huh .Project Manager: That might get redundant also maybe . I don't know what kind of information it would{disfmarker}User Interface: Yeah , I don't know . I d I uh ju I was just thinking about it . Then I got a pop-ups to go to the meeting . But {disfmarker}Marketing:Mm yeah .Project Manager: Yeah . Yeah , it's okay .Industrial Designer: Maybe we can bring t uh uh teletext to the t {vocalsound} to the remote control .{vocalsound}User Interface: The remote control .Marketing: {vocalsound} Then you {disfmarker}Project Manager: {vocalsound}User Interface: {vocalsound}{gap} a little uh too {disfmarker} {vocalsound} A little bit {disfmarker}Marketing: and then you've got a flag s {vocalsound} Very big R_C_ . Yeah .ProjectManager: Okay . {vocalsound} That's not {disfmarker} {vocalsound} It was not a good idea .User Interface: A little bit too big , I think . Exactly .IndustrialDesigner: {vocalsound}Marketing: {vocalsound}Project Manager: Okay .User Interface: Um , yeah . Well , the functions are are not more to discuss , I think.Project Manager: No . No .User Interface: It's it's just the base things we already discussed that the {disfmarker} no V_C_R_ or that kind of{disfmarker}Marketing: No .User Interface: uh , so that's very easy . Um {disfmarker}Project Manager: But you do mention the next and previous uh button.User Interface: Mm-hmm .Project Manager: {gap}User Interface: Well , that's next channel . I mean {gap} next channel .Marketing: Next channel , previouschannel .Project Manager: Oh , okay , o okay okay .User Interface: Uh {disfmarker} Um {disfmarker} oh , I I got an email with {disfmarker} {vocalsound} withan uh a remote control with a base .Project Manager: Huh .User Interface: So , it's uh just an idea . And I um {disfmarker} {vocalsound} uh thinked of thebutton sizes and I'm not sure uh if they have to be big or uh just small {disfmarker} {vocalsound}Industrial Designer: But you're the expert .{vocalsound}Marketing: I think it depends on the function .User Interface: Well , I'm not a e I'm the expert for user-friendly , but not for trendiness .ProjectManager: Mm-hmm .User Interface: Maybe it {disfmarker} {vocalsound}Marketing: Well , if you save uh {disfmarker} Perhaps uh s tiny buttons aren'tuser-friendly , then we wouldn't im implement that of course .Project Manager: {vocalsound} {vocalsound}User Interface: {vocalsound} Well uh {vocalsound}{disfmarker}Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}Marketing: {vocalsound}User Interface: okay , that's your point . Um , yeah . Yeah , okay .Marketing:{vocalsound}User Interface: Yeah , I've nothing to {vocalsound} sIndustrial Designer: {vocalsound}Project Manager: Well , w when we only use basic functions ,we have the possibility to make the buttons larger .Marketing: Oh , that's right .User Interface: Uh , with a little bit larger , yeah .Marketing: Yeah .User


Project Manager: {vocalsound} Wouldn't wanna be Project Manager . {vocalsound} Uh , what we going to do .Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}Marketing:{vocalsound}Project Manager: Um , once again I'm uh gonna take minutes . So , um no presentation for me . Uh , first we have a prototype presentation by G_and G_ .User Interface: {vocalsound}Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}Project Manager: {vocalsound} Afterwards some uhUser Interface: Yo .Marketing: J_ andJ_ . {vocalsound}Project Manager: eval eval evaluIndustrial Designer: Evaluation .Project Manager: evaluationUser Interface: Evaluation criteria .Marketing:Evaluation .Project Manager: s {vocalsound} sorry .Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}Project Manager: Uh evaluation crit criteria . Uh , in combination with thefinance I um {vocalsound} uh I received uh a an uh an Excel uh fileUser Interface: {vocalsound}Marketing: Hmm .Project Manager: which we have to fill in lateron . Um , you see . Uh , and then we must see uh if we uh stay under the twelve and a half Euro .Marketing: Hmm . Interesting . Ah , okay .Project Manager: So ,that's uh that's a bigUser Interface: {vocalsound} Oops .Marketing: {vocalsound} Cool . {vocalsound}Industrial Designer: Mm-hmm . That's gonna be t problem.Project Manager: l so let's uh wait it uh umMarketing: {vocalsound} {vocalsound} {vocalsound}Project Manager: we have we have must {disfmarker} uh ,UserInterface: Some creative uh {disfmarker}Project Manager: we must have uh some time for that uh because it will be uh {disfmarker} yeah , quite a lot ofmathematics .User Interface: Oh . Yeah .Project Manager: And after that , uh uh an evaluation of uh the process how we uh how we have done it here with theSMARTboard , with the with our laptops , with the {disfmarker} all uh all this . And uh afterwards , uh we closing . Once again , forty minutes , so uh let's start.User Interface: Ok okay .Project Manager: I would g give the word to um G_ and G_ for the prototype presentation .User Interface: Shall I give a shortintroduction and then uh {disfmarker}Industrial Designer: Yeah , well sure .Marketing: J_ and J_ .Project Manager: J_ and J_ .User Interface: Okay .{vocalsound} J_ and J_ , okay .Marketing: Jane and Jane .Project Manager: {vocalsound}Marketing: 'Kay guys , take it away .User Interface: Take it away.Industrial Designer: Hi .Project Manager: {vocalsound} {vocalsound}Marketing: {vocalsound}User Interface: Um , this was our first concept . We decided to usea single touch-screen . So , we've worked out this concepts , how to how to hold it , where to put the buttons and and stuff . And um , well , we began with uhwith a form of shape , that is uh is easy to hold w in one hand , left or right handed .Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}User Interface: So , we made i it a little bitless thick and uh it has some ar artistic meaning . No ? This uh isn't nothing . {vocalsound}Marketing: {vocalsound}Project Manager: {vocalsound}UserInterface: Idea maybe uh is better .Project Manager: {vocalsound}User Interface: Um well , during the meeting I showed you the concept of uh placing thebuttons on top , usable with your thumb , and uh the menu structure , uh if necessary , with your other hand , so it's just gonna hold it easily .Project Manager:{vocalsound}User Interface: And it has to be acce accessible with your uh other hand too , of course .Project Manager: {vocalsound} {vocalsound}UserInterface: So we began uh working out a concept .Industrial Designer: Yeah , uh well , and as you saw , we would just have the basic remote with the panelL_C_D_ uh screen . Well , these would be the main buttons , h you could uh change them later on in your own profile if you want to . But , well it's standard theywill be delivered with this kind of uh set-up . We have the {gap} more advanced menu uh setting right here . We have the sub-menus and stu stuff . We made atop {disfmarker} oh , or a front view . Just so like you wanna uh back view . As you can see , this uh {disfmarker} there , there are uh two uh weird bumps in it.Marketing: {vocalsound}Project Manager: {vocalsound}Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} This is for uh the added uh effect of uh well uh y youth and dynamic .And uh this is for the artistic effect .Project Manager: {vocalsound}Industrial Designer: Well , what we figured is uh we'll show you a picture {gap} later on {gap}you have more b a better idea after that . But , idea is for to stay in balance with these two uh {disfmarker} with these two .Marketing: Hmm .IndustrialDesigner: And so when you put it on the table , it will just {gap} lay down . It won't {vocalsound} uh roll around or stuff . But it will lie more in your hand like anold telephone maybe , or like these old uh phones .Project Manager: Mm .Industrial Designer: Y you you may get the idea . So thi this is about uh how we figuredit should be . The s panel we g you would hide with some more uh rubber layers , like we discussed early on . Uh , you would s you wouldn't see the uh straightpanel , but more fluidly and round .User Interface: Yeah , the panel just uh of course goes like this .Industrial Designer: Yeah .User Interface: But the overlayinglayer is uh a little bit uh curved and stuff .Project Manager: No , okay .Marketing: Okay .Industrial Designer: And uh , in these bumps you could actually uh {gap}put some electronics uh that would {disfmarker} you can make a more thinner uh design ,Marketing: Yeah .Industrial Designer: and that would actually look verynice , yeah .User Interface: Yeah .Industrial Designer: And uh , about the colour , what have {disfmarker}User Interface: Yeah . Oh , we added that this um canbe held with your hands for this {disfmarker} maximum is om yeah , one and a half centimetres . So , you have room here for your battery and maybe evenother um electronic chips . S and you can just be the the layer of the touchscreen and some {disfmarker} have some wires underneath it to make it as uh thin aspossible in the middle for good grip .Marketing: Okay . Hmm .Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Yeah , f uh , as colours , do you do you have the picture in uh{disfmarker}User Interface: Yeah .Industrial Designer: Oh yeah . Now , well this is the idea about uh the bumps . Uh , you can see there's a v a very uh youthfuluh dynamic uh exterior . It uh {disfmarker} you just want to hold it you uh you are young and uh dynamic like us .Marketing: 'S l {disfmarker} it's like an uhEaster egg .User Interface: Yeah .Industrial Designer: Yeah , it's like an e but this is for children . We we want a more adult version . But , this is like a remotecontrol for children .Marketing: {vocalsound}Project Manager: It's called a weemote {vocalsound}Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} {gap} . A weemote.Marketing: Weemote .Project Manager: Weemote .Industrial Designer: Yeah . Hey , that's actually a brilliant uh marketing stand .User Interface:{vocalsound}Project Manager: {vocalsound}User Interface: Yeah . {vocalsound}Industrial Designer: Uh , but {vocalsound} {disfmarker}Marketing:{vocalsound} Wait what I w got in mind . {vocalsound}Project Manager: {vocalsound}User Interface: {vocalsound}Industrial Designer: So this actually basic theidea . We we just want to build a more uh adult vers adult version of of this .Project Manager: Yeah , I can imagine that .Marketing: Mm-hmm .IndustrialDesigner: {vocalsound} And and for colours , we we figured starting with basic colours like uh white or metallic grey . Those are the technological colours actually,User Interface: Yeah . It would be best to to appeal to a broad public and make the covers exchangeable ,Industrial Designer: so it dUser Interface: so the youngpeople will buy an orange and a red and blue and a purple ,Industrial Designer: Or blue or whatever .User Interface: but when the o older people uh go in theshop and they see uh an orange um remote control , it would be less appealing than a white one . And young people , we think , are a little bit more flexible,Marketing: Hmm .User Interface: they think , ah I'll buy for a couple of Euros some noi nice hip uh {disfmarker}Marketing: Hmm . Maybe it's an idea to sell itwithout a cover , so that you can pick a cover in the in the shop .User Interface: Well , um I think a cover is necessary , 'cause als otherwise you'll just have theL_C_D_ screen .Marketing: Yeah , okay . Yeah , okay .User Interface: So , there must be some cheap standard cover , um maybe white or something ,Marketing:Hmm . Mm .User Interface: that's could comes with it and you can buy , so we can make extra money .Project Manager: Yeah , but uh you d you mustn't forgetthat uh our target aim is younger people .Marketing: Oui okay .Project Manager: Uh , we had decided to uh put uh some flashy fruity colours in it , uh and uh inthe survey from uh Milan and Paris uh it uh it came out that uh uh the d the older people are uh more willing to uh to spend money on extra features . So I thinkuh it will be a better idea to have some uh flashy fruity colours as as a standard ,User Interface: Okay . The other way around , you mean .Industrial Designer:{gap} Oh yeah .Project Manager: and for the people who uh really want uh a more sophisticated , more traditional look , they're willing to pay uh that .UserInterface: Uh-huh .Project Manager: They want uh {disfmarker} {vocalsound} they want more luxury stuff ,Industrial Designer: Yeah .Project Manager: but theyhave the money to do it and they want to b to buy that .User Interface: Mm-hmm .Project Manager: So , maybe it's an idea to put that as an extra and not as astandard .User Interface: Okay .Marketing: Yeah .Industrial Designer: Yeah . Yeah , maybe {disfmarker} yeah , perhaps you're right . Uh , I I would I wouldactually agree with this sounds logical .User Interface: Okay , yeah .Marketing: An another idea . Uh , maybe we could uh develop a cover uh with wood style.Project Manager: Yeah .Marketing: {vocalsound} They'll please the elder users as well .Project Manager: Yeah .User Interface: Well yeah , a colour of{disfmarker} a wood style , a white c and uh a couple of h hip uh fruity colours .Project Manager: {vocalsound} Yeah .User Interface: And lea uh l deliveredstandard with a fruity colour , but not too not too much .Industrial Designer: Nah . Yeah .Marketing: Yes . Not not too uh {disfmarker} yeah .User Interface: Thisis banana and mango , not not purple or p orange and yellow .Marketing: Yeah , exactly .Project Manager: Yeah . But , the mai I think th uh the standard must besome kind of uh uh attractive flashy colours .Marketing: Yeah . Or blue or {disfmarker}Project Manager: Not too , but w a little ,User Interface: Ah . Mm-hmm.Project Manager: because that's our aim .Industrial Designer: Yeah ,User Interface: Yeah .Industrial Designer: li like like this like this .Project Manager: Yeah.Industrial Designer: This isn't this isn't too much , is it ?User Interface: Yeah , okay . No . Yeah .Industrial Designer: I fMarketing: {gap} .Project Manager: Well ,the buttons don't have to be uh all uh all of {gap}Industrial Designer: Yeah . {vocalsound} The buttons ,Marketing: Well I I I think so .Industrial Designer: I{disfmarker} {vocalsound}Marketing: Yeah , except for the buttons it's {disfmarker} it could be a standard model .Project Manager: yeah . It {disfmarker} Yeah.User Interface: Okay .Industrial Designer: Yeah , uh something like this would be nice .Project Manager: Okay .User Interface: Okay .Industrial Designer: Okay ,


Lynne Neagle AM: Good morning, everyone, and welcome to the Children, Young People and Education committee this morning. We've received apologies forabsence from Siân Gwenllian and there is no substitute this morning. Can I ask if Members have got any declarations of interest they'd like to make, please? No?Okay. Thank you. Item 2 this morning, then, is a further session on our follow-up on our 'Mind over matter' report. I'm very pleased to welcome Carol Shillabeer,who is chief executive of Powys Teaching Health Board, and who manages the Together for Children and Young People programme. Thank you very much forattending, and thank you for the written update that you provided in advance to the committee. We've got a lot of ground that we want to cover this morning, soif it's okay we'll go straight into questions. If I can just start and ask you if you're satisfied with the progress that's been made since the programme wasestablished in 2015.Carol Shillabeer: Thank you very much for that question, Chair. I've got to say 'yes', in many regards. So, the key focus of the programme inthe early stages was about improving access to specialist child and adolescent mental health services. We developed the windscreen model—or we lifted thewindscreen model. Other models that are very similar have been talked about as well, and our big focus was on ensuring that we could make immediate progressaround access to specialist CAMHS. It's some years ago now since this committee did the original report, and obviously Healthcare Inspectorate Wales and theWales Audit Office had done reports in the past, and I think there was a need for a programme that could focus on action. You'll see in the written update that wecovered quite a large number of areas, and so therefore had to make a prioritisation. The prioritisation was at the specialist CAMHS end. We have provided thecommittee with a red, amber or green rating of where we feel that we were, and that was just before submission of the evidence. Overall I would say we havemade progress. I recognise you recognise that in your 'Mind over matter' report, and that is pleasing. What I would say, though, is that there's a still a lot to bedone. Certainly over the last nine months or so, we've seen a real momentum around the whole-school approach work, which we're not actually leading now as aprogramme, although we facilitated the workshop held in September. But that's got a real momentum, and the absolute priority now is the early help andenhanced support part of the work moving forward, and I'm sure we will come on to that in more detail. But we know there is more community workforce inspecialist CAMHS, we know we're seeing children in a shorter time frame, and we know we're accepting more referrals, so our indicators are telling us we aremaking progress.Lynne Neagle AM: Thank you. And you referred to the work on the whole-school approach, which is very welcome, and I recognise that theprogramme has been involved in driving that as well. But I'm sure you'll also recognise the emphasis that the committee has placed on this being a whole-systemapproach to children and young people's mental health, and we feel very strongly that if any of the areas get out of balance, then it will jeopardise the progress inother parts of the programme. Are there any particular areas where you feel you haven't made enough progress that you'd like to draw the committee's attentionto?Carol Shillabeer: This is maybe about what the programme's done, but really around the broader sense as well. I'm going to be very straight and say weshould have made more progress on psychological therapies. I'm disappointed that we haven't. I'm assured that we've got capacity in place now and the drive inplace to get the Matrics Cymru framework developed for children and young people. I've had discussions with the national psychological therapies committee,who have owned this, and we're working together more on this area. That's not to say for one minute that health boards and local areas haven't been working onpsychological therapy service provision and changing the models, but that is an area we should have made, I think, earlier progress on. There's been a generalreflection from myself and the Together for Children and Young People programme board over the phase of the programme. I think we started very strongly; Ithink we probably had a bit of a lull in the middle, if I'm truthful about that—we had a change of personnel, and we really gathered a momentum over the lastyear or 18 months, and that has helped to push us from a focus on specialist CAMHS into that whole-school approach. But, if I could just agree with yourcomments about the whole system, it has to be the whole system and that's why the real focus now on early help and enhanced support is critical. If I can justsay, in case I don't get a chance to say this later, I was delighted to see the focus on youth work yesterday, because what is clear is for that part, the early helpand enhanced support, this isn't just about the NHS and it's not just about education, it's about every part of the system, really, which does make it morecomplex. But I just wanted to say that I think that youth work has perhaps not have the recognition that it's needed and yesterday was a positive step.LynneNeagle AM: Okay, thank you. We've got some questions now on early help and enhanced support from Janet Finch-Saunders.Janet Finch-Saunders AM: Thankyou. Good morning. In terms of local primary mental health support services, what is your understanding of the issues leading to some health boards not meetingthe Mental Health (Wales) Measure 2010 targets for assessment and therapy for children and young people, and how much of this is due to an increase indemand?Carol Shillabeer: Yes, thanks very much. So, it's important to say, I think, at the outset, just by way of reminder, that the target, quite rightly, changedfor children and young people. The target changed some years ago for adults, so it was only right that there was an equalisation around children. So, the serviceswere working, a couple of years ago, with significant demand and then a change in the standard. I think you're absolutely right; your question alludes to the factthat some health boards are struggling to maintain the full performance around seeing children, particularly within the 28 days. I would say—. And we've hadsome discussion about whether the impact of the mental health Measure has actually drawn perhaps some of the workforce, the staff, who would have beenworking at that earlier stage in local primary mental health, into a bit more of the secondary element, which is why the review being undertaken by the NHSdelivery unit into primary care CAMHS is so critical, because, actually, if we don't have—and I believe we don't have—enough capacity in that part of the system,then referrals will move towards the more specialist end of this. So, I think we will have seen, by the evidence submission, that demand has increased, not just inWales but in the UK, and it has increased significantly. We are doing reasonably well at meeting that demand—so, we have more contacts, more staff, shorteraccess times, so that is a good news story. We've not got it completely sustained at this stage, and therefore the focus of the delivery unit's primary care CAMHSreport is what more can we do in that part of the system to help to see children and young people or provide consultation and liaison to others and support peopleat that level of intervention.Janet Finch-Saunders AM: Thank you. I know, from my own experience as a constituency AM, I have families who tell me that theycan't get into the early interventions and eventually things just become so—they end up in the more specialist ones and believe that that's—. And I don't like toput it in resource terms, but it's false economy in terms of the impact on the child and the family, but, obviously, in terms of cost as well. Do you find that that's acommon theme across Wales?Carol Shillabeer: Yes. I think that the thrust of that is absolutely right. So, we absolutely need to see children and families at theearliest intervention and that's why this is a whole system, not compartmentalised. I think there have been really good attempts in a couple of areas of thatgreater reach out and that earlier help—hot clinics and those sorts of initiatives that help people not to get in a long queue for specialist CAMHS, but can besupported, often by telephone, at that earlier stage. My sense of where we go next, in terms of, you know, you talk about early help and enhanced support for allthe 'missing middle', as you referred to it in your report, is to make sure we've got a fully joined-up, multi-agency team approach to that. And I think that willneed some resourcing to support that, yet to be fully determined. But yesterday's announcement about youth work, the Government's commitment to primarycare, CAMHS, et cetera—that's all going to be very helpful to prevent those young people having to go into specialist CAMHS. And just a final note on that, if Imay—at the beginning of the programme, we had a report from Hafal called 'Making Sense' and there were 10 key asks, if you like, of the system and the servicefrom young people who had experience of the service. They said, 'Please don't medicalise it'—I'm paraphrasing now, of course—'Please don't medicalise it; pleasefocus on supporting teachers and others who can support us at an earlier stage and then, when we really need help, please ensure that it is there at that morespecialist level.' That's been a bit of a guiding principle for the programme. So, that reflects the questions that you were asking, really.Janet Finch-Saunders AM:Thank you. What are the outcomes of the stakeholder workshop held last week on early help and enhanced support? And how are the actions going to be takenforward and implemented? And also, given that the Together for Children and Young People programme comes to an end in October of this year, who, in yourview, is best placed to forward this work stream, and what will be the biggest challenges? It's a bit of a long question, so, break it up however you like.CarolShillabeer: That's absolutely fine.Janet Finch-Saunders AM: And what will be the biggest challenges that they will face?Carol Shillabeer: Yes, I think that'shelpfully laid out in three stages. So, you're absolutely right, there was a highly successful workshop last week really focusing on early help and enhancedsupport. It brought all of the agencies together, which was—and actually had a bit of a waiting list, apparently, for places. So, there was a lot of demand and a lotof interest in this. In relation to the next steps, there is a planning group reflection in early July, in terms of the outcomes of the workshop or the outputs of theworkshop, and there are three commitments that have been made to this stage. One is that we develop those values-led approaches that will bring multipleagencies together to have that common purpose. The second one is to develop the ingredients for successful working in this area, and then, thirdly, to determineor propose priorities and sequencing of next steps. So, that's the next stage of that. I'm pretty sure we'll come on shortly—or hopefully—to the potential of theregional partnership boards. There is some work that we are doing as a programme with the children's commissioner in terms of working more with the regional


Project Manager: Okay Right {vocalsound} Um well this is the kick-off meeting for our our project . Um {vocalsound} and um this is just what we're gonna bedoing over the next twenty five minutes . Um so first of all , just to kind of make sure that we all know each other ,Marketing: Mm-hmm .Project Manager: I'mLaura and I'm the project manager . {vocalsound} Do you want to introduce yourself again ?Marketing: Great .Industrial Designer: Hi , I'm David and I'msupposed to be an industrial designer .Project Manager: Okay .Marketing: And I'm Andrew and I'm uh our marketingUser Interface: Um I'm Craig and I'm UserInterface .Marketing: expert .Project Manager: Great . Okay . {vocalsound} Um so we're designing a new remote control and um {disfmarker} Oh I have torecord who's here actually . So that's David , Andrew and Craig , isn't it ? And you all arrived on time . Um yeah so des uh {vocalsound} design a new remotecontrol . Um , as you can see it's supposed to be original , trendy and user friendly . Um so that's kind of our our brief , as it were . Um and so there are threedifferent stages to the design . Um I'm not really sure what what you guys have already received um in your emails . What did you get ?Industrial Designer: Um ,I just got the project announcement about what the project is {vocalsound} .Project Manager: Mm-hmm .Industrial Designer: Designing a remote control.Marketing: Mm-hmm .Industrial Designer: That's about it , didn't get anything else .Marketing: Mm-hmm . Yeah , that's that's it .Project Manager: Is that whateverybody got ?Industrial Designer: Did you get the same thing ?User Interface: Yeah .Project Manager: Okay .Marketing: Yeah .Project Manager: Um . So we'regonna have like individual work and then a meeting about it . And repeat that process three times . Um and at this point we get try out the whiteboard over there. Um . {vocalsound} So uh you get to draw your favourite animal and sum up your favourite characteristics of it . So who would like to go first ?Marketing: I willgo . That's fine .Project Manager: Very good . {vocalsound}Marketing: Alright . So {disfmarker} {vocalsound} {vocalsound} This one here , right ?ProjectManager: Mm-hmm .Marketing: Okay . Very nice . Alright . My favourite animal is like {disfmarker} {vocalsound} {vocalsound} A beagle .Project Manager:{vocalsound}Marketing: Um charac favourite characteristics of it ? Is that right ?Project Manager: Yeah . Yeah .Marketing: Uh , right , well basically um highpriority for any animal for me is that they be willing to take a lot of physical affection from their family . And , yeah that they have lots of personality and uh be fitand in robust good health .Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}Marketing: So this is blue . Blue beagle . My family's beagle .Project Manager: Right .Marketing:{vocalsound}Project Manager: Lovely . {vocalsound}User Interface: {gap} Well , my favourite animal would be a monkey .Project Manager:{vocalsound}Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}User Interface: {vocalsound} Then they're small cute and furry , and uh when planet of the apes becomes real ,{vocalsound} I'm gonna be up there with them .Marketing: {vocalsound}Industrial Designer: Cool .Project Manager: Right .User Interface: {vocalsound}{vocalsound}Industrial Designer: There's too much gear . {vocalsound}Project Manager: You can take as long over this as you like , because we haven't got anawful lot to discuss .Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}Project Manager: Ok oh we do we doUser Interface: {vocalsound}Project Manager: Don't feel like you're ina rush , anyway .Industrial Designer: Okay .Marketing: I coulda told you a whole lot more about beagles .Project Manager: Ach {gap} why not{disfmarker}Marketing: Boy , let me tell you . {vocalsound}Project Manager: We might have to get you up again then .User Interface: {vocalsound}ProjectManager: I don't know what mine is . I'm gonna have to think on the spot now .Marketing: Impressionist .Project Manager: {vocalsound}User Interface:{vocalsound}Industrial Designer: Can't draw . {vocalsound}User Interface: {vocalsound}Industrial Designer: Um .Project Manager: Is that a whale ?{vocalsound}Industrial Designer: Yeah . Um , well anyway , I don't know , it's just the first animal I can think off the top of my head . Um . Yes . Big reason is'cause I'm allergic to most animals . Allergic to animal fur ,Project Manager: Ah .Industrial Designer: so um fish was a natural choice . Um , yeah , and I kind oflike whales . They come in and go {vocalsound} eat everything in sight . {vocalsound}User Interface: {vocalsound}Marketing: {vocalsound}Industrial Designer:And they're quite harmless and mild and interesting .Marketing: {vocalsound} Alright . Mm .Project Manager: Okay . God , I still don't know what I'm gonna writeabout . Um .Marketing: Superb sketch , by the way .Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Tail's a bit big , I think . {vocalsound}Project Manager: I was gonnachoose a dog as well .Marketing: {vocalsound}Project Manager: But I'll just draw a different kind of dog .Marketing: Yep .Project Manager: M my favourite animalis my own dog at home . {vocalsound} Um {disfmarker} That doesn't really look like him , actually . He looks more like a pig , actually . Ah well .Marketing: I seea dog in there .Project Manager: Do you ?User Interface: {vocalsound}Project Manager: Oh that's very good of you .Marketing: Yep . {vocalsound} Now I see arooster .Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}Project Manager: {vocalsound}User Interface: {vocalsound}Project Manager: Uh .Marketing: What kind is it ?ProjectManager: Um he's a mixture of uh various things . Um and what do I like about him , um {disfmarker} That's just to suggest that his tail wags .Marketing:{vocalsound}Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}Project Manager: Um he's very friendly and cheery and always pleased to see you , and very kind of affectionateand um {vocalsound} uh and he's quite quite wee as well so you know he can {disfmarker} doesn't take up too much space .Marketing: {vocalsound}ProjectManager: Um and uh {disfmarker} And he does a funny thing where he chases his tail as well ,Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}Project Manager: which is quiteamusing , so {disfmarker}Marketing: Is he aware that th it's his own cha tail he's chasing ?Project Manager: It is . I think it is . He only does it after he's had hisdinnerMarketing: {vocalsound}Project Manager: and um he'll just all of a sudden just get up and start chasing his tail 'round the living room .Industrial Designer:{vocalsound} It's an after dinner dog then .Marketing: Hmm .Project Manager: Yeah , so uh {disfmarker}Marketing: Probably when he was little he got lots ofattention for doing it and has forever been conditioned .Project Manager: Yeah , maybe . Maybe . {vocalsound} Right , um where did you find this ?Marketing:{vocalsound}Project Manager: Just down here ? Yeah .Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}Project Manager: Okay . {vocalsound} Um what are we doing next ? Uhum . Okay , uh we now need to discuss the project finance . Um so according to the brief um we're gonna be selling this remote control for twenty five Euro , umand we're aiming to make fifty million Euro . Um so we're gonna be selling this on an international scale . And uh we don't want it to cost any more than uh twelvefifty Euros , so fifty percent of the selling price .Marketing: 'Kay . Um , can we just go over that again ?Project Manager: Sure .Marketing: Uh , so bas at twelAlright , yeah . Okay . So cost {disfmarker} like production cost is twelve fifty ,Project Manager: All together .Marketing: but selling price is {disfmarker} is thatwholesale or retail ? Like on the shelf .Project Manager: Um I dunno . I imagine {disfmarker} That's a good question .Marketing: Our sale our sale anyway.Project Manager: I imagine it probably is our sale actuallyMarketing: Yeah , okay okay .Project Manager: because it's probably up to the the um the retailer to uhsell it for whatever price they want . Um .Marketing: Okay . Mm-hmm .Project Manager: But I {disfmarker} I don't know ,Marketing: Alright .Project Manager: Imean do you think the fact that it's going to be sold internationally will have a bearing on how we design it at all ?Marketing: Yes . {vocalsound}Project Manager:Think it will ? Um .Marketing: Mm-hmm . Mm-hmm .Project Manager: {vocalsound} Hmm .Marketing: Well right away I'm wondering if there's um th th uh , likewith D_V_D_ players , if there are zones .Project Manager: Oh yeah , regions and stuff , yeah .Marketing: Um f frequencies or somethingProject Manager: Yeah .Okay .Marketing: um as well as uh characters , um different uh keypad styles and s symbols .Industrial Designer: Hmm .Project Manager: Yeah . Well for aremote control , do you think that will be {disfmarker}Marketing: Um .Project Manager: I suppose it's depends on how complicated our remote control is.Marketing: I don't know . Yeah .Industrial Designer: It does make sense from maybe the design point of view 'cause you have more complicated characters likeEuropean languages , then you need more buttons .Project Manager: Yeah , yeah .Marketing: Yeah .Industrial Designer: So , possibly .Marketing: Yeah .ProjectManager: Okay .Marketing: And then a and then al the other thing international is on top of the price . I'm thinking the price might might appeal to a certainmarket in one region , whereas in another it'll be different , so {disfmarker}Project Manager: What , just like in terms of like the wealth of the country?Marketing: Just a chara just a characteristic of the {disfmarker}Project Manager: Like how much money people have to spend on things like ?Marketing: Just{disfmarker} Or just like , basic product podi positioning , the twenty five Euro remote control might be a big hit in London , might not be such a big hit in Greece, who knows ,Project Manager: Aye , I see what you mean , yeah .Marketing: something like that , yeah .Project Manager: Marketing . Good marketing thoughts.Marketing: {vocalsound} Yep .Project Manager: Oh gosh , I should be writing all this down . Um .Marketing: Right away I'm making some kind of assumptionsabout what what information we're given here ,Project Manager: Mm .Marketing: thinking , 'kay trendy probably means something other than just basic ,ProjectManager: Yeah .Marketing: something other than just standard . Um so I'm wondering right away , is selling twenty five Euros , is that sort of the {disfmarker}thi is this gonna to be like the premium product kinda thing or {disfmarker}Project Manager: Yeah , yeah . Like how much does , you know , a remote controlcost .Marketing: Uh-huh .Project Manager: Well twenty five Euro , I mean that's um that's about like eighteen pounds or something , isn't it ? Or no , is it as muchas that ?Marketing: Mm-hmm .Project Manager: Sixteen seventeen eighteen pounds .Marketing: Yep . Yeah , I'd say so , yeah .Project Manager: Um , I dunno ,I've never bought a remote control , so I don't know how how good a remote control that would get you . Um .Marketing: No . Yeah , yeah . {vocalsound}ProjectManager: But yeah , I suppose it has to look kind of cool and gimmicky .Marketing: Mm-hmm .Project Manager: Um right , okay . Let me just scoot on ahead here. Okay . Um well d Does anybody have anything to add to uh to the finance issue at all ? ThinMarketing: Do we have any other background information on like


Lynne Neagle AM: Good morning, everyone. Welcome to the Children, Young People and Education Committee this morning. I've received no apologies forabsence. Can I ask Members if there are any declarations of interest, please? No. Okay, thank you. Item 2 this morning is our scrutiny session on Estyn's annualreport 2018-19. I'm very pleased to welcome Meilyr Rowlands, Her Majesty's Chief Inspector, Estyn; Jassa Scott, strategic director at Estyn; and Claire Morgan,strategic director at Estyn. Thank you all for attending. We're looking forward to hearing what you've got to say. We'll go straight into questions from SuzyDavies.Suzy Davies AM: Bore da. Good morning, everybody. Thank you for the papers upfront, in which you say that the most striking feature of the educationsystem, looking forward, of course is the curriculum and the change that that's bringing. How can we be sure that, during this period of change, standards don'tslip? And also, from the point of view of scrutiny, will we be back in a situation where we're being told, 'You can't compare one set of results against the previousyear's results, because of the nature of the change'?Meilyr Rowlands: Bore da, bawb. Thank you for the invitation to come here. I think that's a good question. Ithink any kind of major educational reform has got risks attached to it, particularly if those changes were made too quickly. I think this process of reform hasbeen going on in the background for a few years now, so I think there is a track record of standards and provision not slipping. We've seen small incrementalimprovements. So, overall, I think we can be fairly confident that standards won't slip during this period of preparation.Suzy Davies AM: Can I just ask: is thatbased on your evidence around primary schools, where the sort of ethos that we've seen in the curriculum has been already articulated through the foundationphase?Meilyr Rowlands: The track record I'm talking about is across the board, so it's very difficult to think of anything that's actually got worse over the lastthree or four years, so it's difficult to say that standards of provision is slipping. It might not be improving as quickly as we would like, but the purpose of majorcurriculum and, more generally, educational reform is to make sure that we do get a more substantial sort of improvement. I think we should congratulate theprofession for the work they've been doing. A large number of schools and teachers and leaders have been part of preparing the new curriculum and all theassociated work, as well as doing the day job. I think their commitment and their engagement with curriculum reform, and engagement with wider educationreform, is to be congratulated. So, I think going forward, we must make sure that that is continued; that this process that's called co-construction—engaging withthe profession, making sure that they're behind all the changes—continues. I think that's what's going to make sure that we don't see any slippage.Suzy DaviesAM: Okay, and on that point of comparing year on year, we will be able to make those comparisons legitimately then?Meilyr Rowlands: Yes, certainly, in terms ofour inspection outcomes and our inspection work, yes.Suzy Davies AM: Okay. That's great, thank you. Can I just ask you then about the difference inpreparedness between primary and secondary schools, which I've just mentioned previously, and also what your views are on the impact of funding for schools onthat as well? Because we're in a situation where a number of primary schools have got surplus funds, sometimes that's because of end of year additional fundsjust being magicked up, but there is a serious worry that so many secondary schools are in deficit and that, overall, secondary schools are in deficit. Is there acorrelation between those two positions, that secondary schools may be less ready for this than primary schools?Meilyr Rowlands: I think it's probably true to saythat secondary schools have a greater challenge than primary schools generally in terms of preparedness for the new curriculum. I think that's why we welcomedthe phasing in of the new curriculum. With any sort of education reform, you've got that danger of people wanting to see change as soon as possible on the onehand, and on the other hand you need time to pilot things, to make sure that people have the right professional learning and make sure that there's opportunityfor evaluation and thinking and so forth. So, we've got to get that balance right.Suzy Davies AM: Sorry, that could be difficult to do if a school doesn't havemoney to create that space, couldn't it?Meilyr Rowlands: Yes. You raised two issues, I think. One, about the difference between primary and secondary: I thinkwhat I'm saying there is I think the fact that the new curriculum is going to be brought in for all the years in primary, but it's going to be phased in year by yearfor secondary is a recognition of that difference. In terms of funding, probably everyone in this room, and certainly me included, would like to see more money forthe education system—any educationalist would like to see that. But, you know, that is a decision for local and central Government to decide how much they canafford. I think there is an argument for saying that the funding has become more challenging for schools over time.Suzy Davies AM: Can I ask, just to keep it ontrack, are you finding that that's having an impact on secondary schools particularly—their ability to make space to get their heads around the curriculum?MeilyrRowlands: I don't think you can make that straightforward correlation. But if you do look at surpluses and reserves, they have been more or less constant forprimary schools over a long period of time, but they have declined for secondary schools. So, I think there probably is an argument for saying that we need tolook at the funding of secondary schools in particular because, overall, they're in deficit now. So, I think there is an argument for looking at that. The other thingthat's worth saying about funding is that even a small decrease in real terms can be disproportionately time consuming to manage. So, you know, if you have alarge school and you have to maybe make one member of staff redundant, it can have a real big effect on the morale in the school. But also the time it takes forthe headteacher and the senior staff to make those decisions can take their eye off the educational ball because they're looking at these financial and staffingissues.Suzy Davies AM: Okay, thank you. Siân might develop that a little bit further on. The final question from me is: there's a general concern about thenumber of teachers that we have in the system at the moment, particularly at secondary level and in particular subjects as well. How do you think we canimprove that? What impact is it likely to have on the ability of secondary schools to really get a grip on this?Meilyr Rowlands: Obviously, the most importantresource for the education system is the teachers. So, it is a concern that recruitment is getting more and more difficult and that targets for initial teacher trainingare not being hit. And we're not seeing them hit, if I remember correctly, even in primary, let alone secondary. So, there is a challenge, and I think we've got tolook at this in the round. We've got to make sure that we have both a long-term strategy and a shorter term strategy for this. So, long term, we've got to makesure that education is an attractive option for young people and more mature people to want to go into. So, that is partly to do with workload and staff well-being.I think there's a general acceptance now that that needs to be higher up on the agenda, that people need to take that seriously, and there's work going onregarding the workload issue.Suzy Davies AM: I suppose what I'm coming to, and I will finish with this, Chair, is, we're asking our existing workforce to undertakea fair bit of continuous professional development—let's call it that—in order to get ready for this curriculum when they've barely got time for lunch as it is. Do youthink that's going to have an impact on the ability of secondary schools to get to grips with this, albeit that there'll be a phasing in?Meilyr Rowlands: Yes. I think itwill have an effect, but I think it'll have a positive effect. I think the new curriculum, one of the things about the new curriculum is that it re-professionalises theprofession. It gives back agency and ownership to teachers. I think it's really important. And one of the reasons why teaching maybe hasn't been that attractive aprofession is that teachers in the past have just been delivering a set curriculum, and now they've got a much more creative part in deciding for themselves howto teach something and what to teach. So, I think that is a very important part of attracting intelligent people into the profession.  There are short-term things weneed to do, of course, as well. I think we need to have a much more varied set of routes into teaching, so I welcome some of the part-time Open Universitycourses, for example. So, there are lots of ways—we were talking about maybe converting people from primary into secondary, particularly in Welsh-medium,where there's a shortage. So, all those kinds of varied routes, I think, into teaching, are important as well.Suzy Davies AM: Degree apprenticeships,potentially.Meilyr Rowlands: Yes, I think it's well worth exploring that. Yes.Suzy Davies AM: Lovely. Thank you. Thank you, Chair.Lynne Neagle AM: Okay. SiânGwenllian now has some questions on secondary schools causing concern. Siân.Sian Gwenllian AM: Yes. Just before going on to that, just to pick up on that lastpoint that you made about the shortage of teachers and losing teachers during the first year of their training. Has Estyn done any themed work on that particularissue, or do you intend to do anything on that? Also, looking at the financial incentives and how they compare with the situation in England, for example; do weneed, perhaps, to think about financial incentives, not just for specific subjects, but for going to schools where there are particular issues, perhaps?MeilyrRowlands: Well, yes, there are currently discussions ongoing between us and the Government about working in those early years for teachers. It's possible thatwe will be undertaking work in the near future on that. I know that Professor Mick Waters is looking at this currently, and we've had the discussion with him. AndI think we would welcome the opportunity to look at this particular period. Now, we are, of course, looking at initial teacher training, but we haven't looked at thefirst couple of years for many a year.Sian Gwenllian AM: Right, thank you very much. And for your information, I've commissioned a piece of work on thatparticular issue, and that work will be published in due course. So, I hope to have a discussion with you about that.Meilyr Rowlands: Thank you very much.Yes.Sian Gwenllian AM: In terms of the secondary schools, that’s where the problem lies, isn’t it, rather than the primary sector. How much of a concern is it toyou that children’s chances of going to a secondary school that is good or better appear to be 50:50, and that, indeed, over 10 per cent of secondary schools arejudged to be failing and 12 per cent are under Estyn review? How much of a concern is that to you?Meilyr Rowlands: Well, it is of concern to us, of course. I hopethat we will have an opportunity to talk about the positive aspects of the education system in Wales, because there are a number of good things we can report


Professor B: Is it starting now ?PhD E: Yep .Professor B: So what {disfmarker} what {disfmarker} from {disfmarker} what {disfmarker}Grad A: Hello ?ProfessorB: Whatever we say from now on , it can be held against us , right ?PhD E: That 's right .Professor B: and uhGrad A: It 's your right to remain silent .Professor B:Yeah . So I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} the problem is that I actually don't know how th these held meetings are held , if they are very informaland sort of just people are say what 's going onPhD E: Yeah .Professor B: andPhD E: Yeah , that 's usually what we do .Professor B: OK .PhD E: We just sorta goaround and people say what 's going on , what 's the latest uh {disfmarker}Professor B: Yeah . OK . So I guess that what may be a {disfmarker} reasonable is if Iuh first make a report on what 's happening in Aurora in general , at least what from my perspective .PhD E: Yeah . That would be great .Professor B: And{disfmarker} and uh so , I {disfmarker} I think that Carmen and Stephane reported on uh Amsterdam meeting ,PhD D: Uh oProfessor B: which was kind ofinteresting because it was for the first time we realized we are not friends really , but we are competitors . Cuz until then it was sort of like everything was likewonderful and {disfmarker}PhD E: Yeah . It seemed like there were still some issues ,Professor B: Yeah .PhD E: right ? that they were trying to decide ?ProfessorB: There is a plenty of {disfmarker} there 're plenty of issues .PhD E: Like the voice activity detector ,Professor B: Well and what happened was that they realizedthat if two leading proposals , which was French Telecom Alcatel , and us both had uh voice activity detector . And I said " well big surprise , I mean we couldhave told you that {pause} n n n four months ago , except we didn't because nobody else was bringing it up " .PhD E: Right .Professor B: Obviously FrenchTelecom didn't volunteer this information either , cuz we were working on {disfmarker} mainly on voice activity detector for past uh several monthsPhD E: Right.Professor B: because that 's buying us the most uh thing . And everybody said " Well but this is not fair . We didn't know that . " And of course uh the{disfmarker} it 's not working on features really . And be I agreed .PhD E: Right .Professor B: I said " well yeah , you are absolutely right , I mean if I wish thatyou provided better end point at speech because uh {disfmarker} or at least that if we could modify the recognizer , uh to account for these long silences ,because otherwise uh that {disfmarker} that {disfmarker} th that wasn't a correct thing . " And so then ev ev everybody else says " well we should {disfmarker}we need to do a new eval evaluation without voice activity detector , or we have to do something about it " .PhD E: Right .Professor B: And in principle I{disfmarker} uh I {disfmarker} we agreed .PhD E: Mm - hmm .Professor B: We said uh " yeah " . Because uh {disfmarker} but in that case , uh we would like tochange the uh {disfmarker} the algorithm because uh if we are working on different data , we probably will use a different set of tricks .PhD E: Right .ProfessorB: But unfortunately nobody ever officially can somehow acknowledge that this can be done , because French Telecom was saying " no , no , no , now everybodyhas access to our code , so everybody is going to copy what we did . " Yeah well our argument was everybody ha has access to our code , and everybody alwayshad access to our code . We never uh {disfmarker} uh denied that . We thought that people are honest , that if you copy something and if it is protected{disfmarker} protected by patent then you negotiate , or something ,PhD E: Yeah . Right .Professor B: right ? I mean , if you find our technique useful , we arevery happy .PhD E: Right .Professor B: But {disfmarker} And French Telecom was saying " no , no , no ,PhD E: Mm - hmm .Professor B: there is a lot of littletricks which uh sort of uh cannot be protected and you guys will take them , " which probably is also true . I mean , you know , it might be that people will takeuh uh th the algorithms apart and use the blocks from that . But I somehow think that it wouldn't be so bad , as long as people are happy abou uh uh uh honestabout it .PhD E: Yeah .Professor B: And I think they have to be honest in the long run , because winning proposal again {disfmarker} uh what will be available this {disfmarker} will be a code . So the uh {disfmarker} the people can go to code and say " well listen this is what you stole from me "PhD E: Mm - hmm.Professor B: you know ?PhD E: Right .Professor B: " so let 's deal with that " .PhD E: Right .Professor B: So I don't see the problem . The biggest problem ofcourse is that f that Alcatel French Telecom cl claims " well we fulfilled the conditions . We are the best . Uh . We are the standard . " And e and other people don'tfeel that , because they {disfmarker} so they now decided that {disfmarker} that {disfmarker} is {disfmarker} the whole thing will be done on well - endpointeddata , essentially that somebody will endpoint the data based on clean speech , because most of this the SpeechDat - Car has the also close speaking mike andendpoints will be provided .PhD E: Mm - hmm . Ah .Professor B: And uh we will run again {disfmarker} still not clear if we are going to run the {disfmarker} if weare allowed to run uh uh new algorithms , but I assume so . Because uh we would fight for that , really . uh but {disfmarker} since uh u u n u {disfmarker} atleast our experience is that only endpointing a {disfmarker} a mel cepstrum gets uh {disfmarker} gets you twenty - one percent improvement overall and twenty- seven improvement on SpeechDat - CarPhD E: Hmm .Professor B: then obvious the database {disfmarker} uh I mean the {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} the{disfmarker} uh the baseline will go up . And nobody can then achieve fifty percent improvement .PhD E: Right .Professor B: So they agreed that uh there will bea twenty - five percent improvement required on {disfmarker} on uh h u m bad mis badly mismatched {disfmarker}PhD E: But wait a minute , I thought theendpointing really only helped in the noisy cases .Professor B: It uh {disfmarker}PhD E: Oh , but you still have that with the MFCC .Professor B: Y yeah .PhD E:OK .Professor B: Yeah but you have the same prob I mean MFCC basically has an enormous number of uh insertions .PhD E: Yeah . Right . Yeah . Yeah . Yeah.Professor B: And so , so now they want to say " we {disfmarker} we will require fifty percent improvement only for well matched condition , and only twenty -five percent for the serial cases . "PhD E: Hmm .Professor B: And uh {disfmarker} and they almost agreed on that except that it wasn't a hundred percent agreed. And so last time uh during the meeting , I just uh brought up the issue , I said " well you know uh quite frankly I 'm surprised how lightly you are making thesedecisions because this is a major decision . For two years we are fighting for fifty percent improvement and suddenly you are saying " oh no we {disfmarker} wewill do something less " , but maybe we should discuss that . And everybody said " oh we discussed that and you were not a mee there " and I said " well a lot ofother people were not there because not everybody participates at these teleconferencing c things . " Then they said " oh no no no because uh everybody isinvited . " However , there is only ten or fifteen lines , so people can't even con you know participate . So eh they agreed , and so they said " OK , we will discussthat . " Immediately Nokia uh raised the question and they said " oh yeah we agree this is not good to to uh dissolve the uh uh {disfmarker} the uh {disfmarker}the criterion . "PhD E: Mm - hmm .Professor B: So now officially , Nokia is uh uh complaining and said they {disfmarker} they are looking for support , uh I thinkQualComm is uh saying , too " we shouldn't abandon the fifty percent yet . We should at least try once again , one more round . "PhD E: Mm - hmm .Professor B:So this is where we are .PhD E: Mm - hmm .Professor B: I hope that {disfmarker} I hope that this is going to be a adopted .PhD E: Hmm .Professor B: NextWednesday we are going to have uh another uh teleconferencing call , so we 'll see what uh {disfmarker} where it goes .PhD E: So what about the issue of umthe weights on the {disfmarker} for the different systems , the well - matched , and medium - mismatched and {disfmarker}Professor B: Yeah , that 's what{disfmarker} that 's a g very good uh point , because David says " well you know we ca we can manipulate this number by choosing the right weights anyways . "So while you are right but {disfmarker} uh you know butPhD E: Mm - hmm .Professor B: Uh yeah , if of course if you put a zero {disfmarker} uh weight zero on amismatched condition , or highly mismatched then {disfmarker} then you are done .PhD E: Mm - hmm .Professor B: But weights were also deter already decideduh half a year ago . So {disfmarker}PhD E: And they 're the {disfmarker} staying the same ?Professor B: Well , of course people will not like it . Now{disfmarker} What is happening now is that I th I think that people try to match the criterion to solution .PhD E: Mm - hmm .Professor B: They have solution .Now they want to {vocalsound} make sure their criterion is {disfmarker}PhD E: Right .Professor B: And I think that this is not the right way .PhD E: Yeah.Professor B: Uh it may be that {disfmarker} that {disfmarker} Eventually it may ha may ha it may have to happen . But it 's should happen at a point whereeverybody feels comfortable that we did all what we could .PhD E: Mm - hmm .Professor B: And I don't think we did .PhD E: Mm - hmm .Professor B: Basically , Ithink that {disfmarker} that this test was a little bit bogus because of the data and uh essentially {pause} there were these arbitrary decisions made , and{disfmarker} and everything . So , so {disfmarker} so this is {disfmarker} so this is where it is . So what we are doing at OGI now is uh uh uh working basicallyon our parts which we I think a little bit neglected , like noise separation . Uh so we are looking in ways is {disfmarker} in uh which {disfmarker} uh with whichwe can provide better initial estimate of the mel spectrum basically , which would be a l uh , f more robust to noise , and so far not much uh success .PhD E:Hmm .Professor B: We tried uh things which uh a long time ago Bill Byrne suggested , instead of using Fourier spectrum , from Fourier transform , use thespectrum from LPC model . Their argument there was the LPC model fits the peaks of the spectrum , so it may be m naturally more robust in noise . And Ithought " well , that makes sense , " but so far we can't get much {disfmarker} much out of it .PhD E: Hmm .Professor B: uh we may try some standardtechniques like spectral subtraction and {disfmarker}PhD E: You haven't tried that yet ?Professor B: not {disfmarker} not {disfmarker} not much . Or even I wasthinking about uh looking back into these totally ad - hoc techniquesPhD E: Hmm .Professor B: like for instance uh Dennis Klatt was suggesting uh the one way touh deal with noisy speech is to add noise to everything .PhD E: Hmm !Professor B: So . {comment} I mean , uh uh add moderate amount of noise to all data.PhD E: Oh !Professor B: So that makes uh th any additive noise less addi less a a effective ,PhD E: I see .Professor B: right ? Because you already uh had the


Grad F: OK .PhD C: Adam , what is the mike that , uh , Jeremy 's wearing ? Grad F: It 's the ear - plug mike .Postdoc A: Ear - plug .PhD E: That 's good .PhD C: Isthat a wireless , or {disfmarker} ? Oh .Grad F: No .Grad G: It 's wired .Professor B: Oh !Postdoc A: Is that {disfmarker} Does that mean you can't hear anythingduring the meeting ?Grad D: It 's old - school .Grad F: Huh ? What ? Huh ?Professor B: Should we , uh , close the door , maybe ?Grad F: It {disfmarker} it 's afairly good mike , actually .Professor B: So it 's {disfmarker} Yeah . Huh .Grad F: Well , I shouldn't say it 's a good mike . All I really know is that the signal levelis OK . I don't know if it 's a {disfmarker} the quality .Professor B: Well , that 's aGrad F: Ugh ! So I didn't send out agenda items because until five minutes agowe only had one agenda item and now we have two . So . {vocalsound} And , uh .Professor B: OK . So , just to repeat the thing bef that we said last week , itwas there 's this suggestion of alternating weeks on {vocalsound} more , uh , automatic speech recognition related or not ? Was that sort of {pause} the division?Grad F: Right .Professor B: So which week are we in ?Grad F: Well {disfmarker} We haven't really started , but I thought we more {disfmarker} we more or lessdid Meeting Recorder stuff last week , so I thought we could do , uh {disfmarker}Professor B: I thought we had a thing about speech recognition last week too.PhD C: Yeah .Grad F: But I figure also if they 're short agenda items , we could also do a little bit of each .Professor B: Yeah .Grad F: So . I seem to be havingdifficulty getting this adjusted . Here we go .Professor B: OK .Grad F: So , uh , as most of you should know , I did send out the consent form thingies and , uh , sofar no one has made any {disfmarker} Ach ! {comment} {comment} any comments on them . So , no on no one has bleeped out anything .Professor B: Um .Yeah .Grad F: So . I don't expect anyone to . But .Professor B: Um . {vocalsound} So , w what follows ? At some point y you go around and get people to signsomething ?Grad F: No . We had spoken w about this beforeProfessor B: Yeah , but I 've forgotten .Grad F: and we had decided that they have {disfmarker} theyonly needed to sign once . And the agreement that they already signed simply said that we would give them an opportunity . So as long as we do that , we 'recovered .Professor B: And how long of an opportunity did you tell them ?Grad F: Uh , July fifteenth .Professor B: July fifteenth . Oh , so they have a plenty of time, and yGrad F: Yep .Professor B: Given that it 's that long , um , um {disfmarker} Why was that date chosen ? You just felt you wanted to {disfmarker} ?Grad F:Jane told me July fifteenth . So , that 's what I set it .Postdoc A: Oh . I just meant that that was {pause} the release date that you had on the {pause} data.Professor B: Oh , OK .Grad F: Oh . I {disfmarker} I didn't understand that there was something specific .Postdoc A: I , uh {disfmarker} I thought{disfmarker}Grad F: You {disfmarker} y you had {disfmarker}Professor B: I don't {disfmarker}Grad F: I had heard July fifteenth , so that 's what I put .PostdocA: Mm - hmm .Professor B: No , the only {disfmarker} th the only {pause} mention I recall about that was just that July fifteenth or so is when {vocalsound} thismeeting starts .Grad F: So .Postdoc A: That 's right . That 's why .Professor B: Oh , I see .Postdoc A: You said you wanted it to be available then .Professor B: OK.Postdoc A: I didn't mean it to be the hard deadline .Professor B: Right .Postdoc A: It 's fine with me if it is , or we cou But I thought it might be good to remindpeople two weeks prior to thatProfessor B: wPostdoc A: in case , uh {disfmarker} you know , " by the way {pause} this is your last {disfmarker} "Professor B:Right .Postdoc A: Uh . Yeah .Professor B: We probably should have talked about it , cuz i because if we wanna be able to give it to people July fifteenth , ifsomebody 's gonna come back and say " OK , I don't want this and this and this used " , uh , clearly we need some time to respond to that . Right ?Grad F: Yeah .As I said , we {disfmarker} I just got one dateProfessor B: Yeah .PhD H: Damn !Grad F: and that 's the one I used .Professor B: Yeah .Grad F: So . But I can senda follow - up . I mean , it 's almost all us . I mean the people who are in the meeti this meeting was , uh , these {disfmarker} the meetings that {disfmarker} in{disfmarker} are in set one .PhD C: Was my {disfmarker} was my response OK ?Postdoc A: That 's right .PhD C: I just wrote you {disfmarker} replied to theemail saying they 're all fine .Grad F: Right . I mean , that 's fine .PhD C: OK , good .Grad F: I {disfmarker} we don't {disfmarker} My understanding of what we{pause} had agreed upon when we had spoken about this months ago was that , uh , we don't actually need a reply .PhD C: That makes it easy .Grad F: We justneed to tell them that they can do it if they want .Professor B: OK . I just didn't remember , but {disfmarker}Grad F: And so no reply is no changes .Postdoc A:And he 's got it so that the default thing you see when you look at the page is " OK " .Professor B: OK .Postdoc A: So that 's very clear all the way down the page ," OK " . And they have two options they can change it to . One of them is {pause} " censor " , and the other one is " incorrect " . Is it {disfmarker} is{disfmarker} your word is " incorrect " ?Grad F: Right .Postdoc A: Which means also we get feedback on {pause} if {pause} um , there 's something that they wthat needs to be {pause} adjusted , because , I mean , these are very highly technical things . I mean , it 's an added , uh , level of checking on the accuracy ofthe transcription , as I see it . But in any case , people can agree to things that are wrong .Grad F: Well {disfmarker}Postdoc A: So .Grad F: Yeah . The reason Idid that it was just so that people would not censor {disfmarker} not ask to have stuff removed because it was transcribed incorrectly ,Postdoc A: And the reasonI liked it was because {disfmarker}Grad F: as opposed to , uh {disfmarker}Postdoc A: was because it , um {disfmarker} it gives them the option of , uh , beingable to correct it .Grad F: Right .Postdoc A: Approve it and correct it . And {pause} um . So , you have {pause} it nicely set up so they email you and , uh{disfmarker}Grad F: When they submit the form , it gets processed and emailed to me .Postdoc A: Mm - hmm . Mm - hmm . And I wanted to say the meetingsthat are involved in that set are Robustness and Meeting Recorder .Grad F: So .Postdoc A: The German ones will be ready for next week . Those are three{disfmarker} three of those . A different set of people . And we can impose {disfmarker}PhD C: The German ones ?Postdoc A: Uh , well .PhD H: Yeah . Those{disfmarker} uh {disfmarker}Professor B: NSA .Postdoc A: OK . I spoke loosely . The {disfmarker} the German , French {disfmarker} Sorry , the German ,{vocalsound} Dutch , and Spanish ones .PhD E: Spanish . Yeah .Grad F: Mm - hmm .PhD C: Oh , those are the NSA meetings ?PhD E: The non - native{disfmarker}PhD H: Those are {disfmarker}Postdoc A: Yeah . Uh - huh .Professor B: German , Dutch , Swiss and Spanish .PhD C: Oh , oh ! OK .PhD E: The allnon - native {disfmarker}Postdoc A: That 's {disfmarker} that 's {disfmarker} that 's rGrad F: Mm - hmm .PhD H: Uh - huh .PhD C: OK . I 'd {disfmarker} IdPostdoc A: Yeah . {pause} It 's the other group .Professor B: I It was the network {disfmarker} network services group .PhD C: OK .Postdoc A: Uh - huh . Yeah, exactly . Yeah .Professor B: Yeah .Postdoc A: I didn't mean to {pause} isolate them .Professor B: Otherwise known as the German , Dutch , and Spanish.Postdoc A: Yeah . Sorry . It was {disfmarker} it was not the best characterization .Grad F: Mm - hmm .Postdoc A: But what {disfmarker} {vocalsound} what Imeant to say was that it 's the other group that 's not {disfmarker} n no m no overlap with our present members . And then maybe it 'd be good to set an explicitdeadline , something like {pause} a week {pause} before that , uh , J July fifteenth date , or two weeks before .Professor B: I mean , I would suggest we discuss{disfmarker} I mean , if we 're going to have a policy on it , that we discuss the length of time that we want to give people ,Grad F: Mm - hmm .Professor B: sothat we have a uniform thing . So , tha that 's a month , which is fine . I mean , it seems {disfmarker}PhD C: Twelve hours .Grad F: Well , the only thing I said inthe email is that {pause} the data is going to be released on the fifteenth . I didn't give any other deadline .Postdoc A: Mm - hmm .Grad F: So my feeling is ifsomeone after the fifteenth says , " wow I suddenly found something " , we 'll delete it from our record . We just won't delete it from whatever 's already beenreleased .Postdoc A: Hmm . That 's a little bit difficult .Grad F: What else can we do ?Postdoc A: Yeah .Grad F: If someone says " hey , look , I {pause} foundsomething in this meeting and {pause} it 's libelous and I want it removed " . What can we do ?Postdoc A: Well . {pause} That 's true .Grad F: We have toremove it .Postdoc A: I {disfmarker} I agree with that part , but I think that it would {disfmarker} it , uh {disfmarker} we need to have , uh , a {disfmarker} a{disfmarker} a message to them very clearly that {vocalsound} beyond this date , you can't make additional changes .Professor B: I mean , um , I {disfmarker}I {disfmarker} {vocalsound} i I think that somebody might {pause} request something even though we say that . But I think it 's good to at least start someplace like that .Postdoc A: Mm - hmm . Good .Professor B: So if we agreed , {vocalsound} OK , how long is a reasonable amount of time for people to have{disfmarker} if we say two weeks , or if we say a month , I think we should just say that {disfmarker} say that , you know , i a as {pause} um , {vocalsound} "per the {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} the , uh , page you signed , you have the ability to look over this stuff " and so forth " and , uh , because we w " these , uh{disfmarker} I would {disfmarker} I would imagine some sort of generic thing that would say " because we , uh , will continually be making these things available{vocalsound} to other researchers , uh , this can't be open - ended and so , uh , uh , please give us back your response within this am you know , within thisamount of time " , whatever time we agree upon .Grad F: Well , did you read the email and look at the pages I sent ?Professor B: Did I ? No , I haven't yet . No ,just {disfmarker}Grad F: No . OK , well why don't you do that and then make comments on what you want me to change ?Professor B: No , no . I 'm not sayingthat you should change anything . I I 'm {disfmarker} what I 'm {disfmarker} what I 'm {disfmarker} {vocalsound} I 'm trying to spark a discussion hopefullyamong people who have read it so that {disfmarker} that you can {disfmarker} {vocalsound} you can , uh , decide on something .Postdoc A: Mm - hmm.Professor B: So I 'm not telling you what to decide .Postdoc A: Mm - hmm .Professor B: I 'm just saying you should decide something ,Postdoc A: OK .ProfessorB: and then {disfmarker}Grad F: I already did decide something , and that 's what 's in the email .Postdoc A: Yeah , yeah . OK , so {disfmarker}Grad F: And ifyou disagree with it , why don't you read it and give me comments on it ?Postdoc A: Yeah . Well {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I think that there 's one missing line


Project Manager: Hello again .User Interface: Hello .Industrial Designer: Hi . {vocalsound}Marketing: Hey , Project Manager .Project Manager: {vocalsound}UserInterface: Um , Project Manager , I have something to tell you .Project Manager: Mm yeah .User Interface: I have a little problems with my laptop .ProjectManager: Okay .User Interface: And uh s s s so I had a little less time to complete .Project Manager: Okay .User Interface: No , a little problem , uh {vocalsound}big problem . I just thought {disfmarker}Marketing: What was it , problem ?User Interface: Um , it didn't work anymore . {vocalsound}Marketing: The laptop?User Interface: The entire Windows uh {disfmarker}Marketing: It hang {disfmarker} hung .User Interface: It it hung . {vocalsound}Project Manager:{vocalsound}Marketing: Ha-ha . Oh . Project Manager .Project Manager: {vocalsound} Yes . {vocalsound} Yes .Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}Marketing:You're our Project Manager .Project Manager: {vocalsound} Your project manager . {vocalsound}Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}User Interface:{vocalsound}Project Manager: Welcome to the conceptual design meetingIndustrial Designer: {vocalsound} {vocalsound}Marketing: {vocalsound}ProjectManager: for Real Reaction .Marketing: {vocalsound}Project Manager: Uh , hello again . Uh it's uh the same as the last time . Uh uh , also this time there will beuh three presentations .Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}Project Manager: And we um must uh reach a decision on uh the remote control concepts . Um uh , andat the end , uh I uh , when I finish it off I have some uh input from uh a master class I uh {vocalsound} visited . {vocalsound} {gap} information .{vocalsound}Marketing: {vocalsound}Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}User Interface: During lunch , yeah .Marketing: Master .User Interface: He's the master ,yeah . {vocalsound} {vocalsound}Project Manager: {vocalsound}Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}Project Manager: The the the the the concepts on uh{disfmarker} we uh {disfmarker} where we uh must reach a decision on . Um uh , our {disfmarker} from uh are of two sorts .Marketing: Master of{disfmarker}Project Manager: Components concepts and user interface concepts . Uh , the first one is uh really about the the the the the total package uh withuh {disfmarker} Well , we have decided to do a {disfmarker} do the uh {disfmarker} with a touch-screen that must be a case around it so uh it won't be uh uh asbreakable . Uh how how about the energy ? Can you uh can you reload it or uh just have batteries which you must exchange ? Uh , the user interface concept .Uh , with the type and uh the the supplements . So uh where to put what button . {vocalsound} And uh uh I would say uh {disfmarker} Jans , can you begin?Industrial Designer: Yeah , sure .Project Manager: Okay .Marketing: {vocalsound}Project Manager: At the end , uh {disfmarker} I will take notes uh and at theend of the minutes uh will uh be at the shared folder .Industrial Designer: Okay . Uh , let me see . I think it's this one . Ha .User Interface: Wow .IndustrialDesigner: Right . Uh , well , I'll be talking about the components .Marketing: {vocalsound}Industrial Designer: Uh , what I did was I reviewed previously useditems uh by uh two two uh different uh age groups .Project Manager: Mm-hmm .Industrial Designer: Uh below forty five and above . And uh I just uh watch whatthe differences are and I checked uh , well , what what d do we want , and {gap} how can we uh d aim a at uh the target group . Well uh what I found was that asenior um {disfmarker}Project Manager: {vocalsound}Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} senior citizens uh {disfmarker} {vocalsound}Marketing: {vocalsound}I'm sorry . {vocalsound}Industrial Designer: Ye Ah , it's {vocalsound} it's okay .Marketing: Okay . Go on . {vocalsound}Industrial Designer: Uh {disfmarker}{vocalsound} They , well , they like more the {disfmarker} they like the traditional materials , like wood and and such more .Marketing: {vocalsound}IndustrialDesigner: Wood and chrome .Project Manager: {vocalsound}Industrial Designer: And uh uh they like uh straightforward shapes . Um , uh they they they they likeluxurious uh styles , where whereas the young and dynamic , they like a more uh soft materials . Think of the Teletubbies , for instance .Project Manager:{vocalsound}Industrial Designer: Uh uh , soft and fluffy and colourful and {disfmarker}Marketing: {vocalsound}Industrial Designer: Well uh , shapes are curvedand round .Marketing: {vocalsound}Industrial Designer: Y y you get {vocalsound} the picture . And uh they like sports and gaming , and that gives them uh thevitality . Uh , so w well uh , firsProject Manager: One one little question .Industrial Designer: Yes .Project Manager: Um about the the material .IndustrialDesigner: Yeah .Project Manager: Uh a soft material for a remote control ?Industrial Designer: No , I'll I'll get to that .Project Manager: Okay . Yeah .IndustrialDesigner: You you'll see . Yeah .Project Manager: Thank you . {vocalsound}Industrial Designer: Uh , well f first off , let's start start with the energy . W I uh I hada choice between uh a few different uh sources .Project Manager: Mm-hmm .Industrial Designer: But uh the two basic sources that I found were the best possiblewere the battery uh versus kinetic . Uh kinetic , that's when you move something , then uh it gets energy . I figured , well that's ki kinda high-tech , when whenyou have a remote control that well , when you pick it up , it has power . That would be actually very nice , uh I figured .Project Manager: Oh .IndustrialDesigner: Well , we could also use a battery , that's a bit {disfmarker}Marketing: Yeah but when the power gets low , you have to shake it or something ?ProjectManager: {vocalsound}User Interface: {vocalsound}Industrial Designer: Yeah . Yeah yeah , you c just you have to shake it around a little bit .Marketing: Uh ,and uh uh {disfmarker}Industrial Designer: And then then it d then it has some more uh energy .Project Manager: {vocalsound}Marketing: Hmm .IndustrialDesigner: Well , y you could just go for a battery . Or you can go for both ?User Interface: Oh , have you considered the option of using a solar panel ?IndustrialDesigner: Yeah , I actually did . But uh the thing is about solar panel is you have to have l uh light . Well , sunlight preferably .User Interface: W {gap} nah.Industrial Designer: Uh , and you you could you could use normal light , but uh you wouldn't get the same amount of energy that you would from a battery orsomething .User Interface: Mm . Yeah .Industrial Designer: Uh for uh ultimate b uh {vocalsound} n uh use of uh solar panels , you could actually use uh{disfmarker} you could use uh solar panels , but uh you ha you'd have to implement them into uh the remote control , leaving you uh a bit less space for theinterface .Marketing: Mm yeah . It's too less space .User Interface: Yeah .Industrial Designer: So uh {disfmarker} so i i it it wo what's actually {disfmarker} I I cjust in f I've figured it out that well , uh seeing that you'll always be uh within the l uh distance of T_V_ , and the {disfmarker} from T_V_ there comes a a awhole bunch of light . So it would actually power itself uh from a T_V_ .Marketing: {vocalsound}User Interface: Yeah .Industrial Designer: But , well you just takeup all the space , and you wouldn't uh have the full amount of power actually used .User Interface: Okay .Project Manager: But you prefer kinetic ?IndustrialDesigner: So {disfmarker} I I prefer kinetic because it's uh {disfmarker} well , the costs aren't that much higher , and um , ju just a bit more high-tech than thana normal battery .Project Manager: Okay . Yeah , but you don't move a a remote control too much .Industrial Designer: I mean , if {disfmarker} No , but uh dWell , you pick it up and you press buttons and y well , you {disfmarker}Project Manager: And that's enough to to keep the energy level uh{disfmarker}Industrial Designer: Yeah , well uh actually it is .Project Manager: Okay .Industrial Designer: And it it {disfmarker} if it isn't , you just shake it a bitand and add add with power up again .Marketing: {vocalsound}Project Manager: {vocalsound}User Interface: Yeah .Industrial Designer: But , what l what Jareksaid , you could you could use a battery that you'd just keep it on the recharging whenever it moves . And for rest , you'd just add juice on the battery .ProjectManager: Okay .Marketing: And when the battery doesn't work , I usually shake it too . So {disfmarker}Project Manager: {vocalsound} Thank you , Tim .{vocalsound}User Interface: {vocalsound}Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Exactly . {vocalsound}Marketing: {vocalsound} Like slamming on it . {vocalsound}It's exactly the same . {vocalsound}Industrial Designer: And so that {disfmarker} Uh {disfmarker} {vocalsound} Uh well ,User Interface: {vocalsound}IndustrialDesigner: f furthermore , you you {disfmarker} we {gap} {disfmarker} uh checked uh the cases .Marketing: {vocalsound}Project Manager:{vocalsound}Industrial Designer: We have uh different options uh concerning the cases . You ha I {disfmarker} you sim uh you simply add a basic uh standarduh model uh {disfmarker} it was kind of square and uh I figured that's a bit boring . So you you {disfmarker} we could go for uh the single curved or the doublecurved . Um , single curve , it's just a {disfmarker} well , uh , you know , it's just uh a nice curve . Or but but you could go in a in an double curves . And that's{gap} like several different dimensions .Project Manager: Yeah .Industrial Designer: That gives you an whole new uh effecProject Manager: Dynamic dynamiclook ?Marketing: Hmm .Industrial Designer: Yeah , that gives you a younger and uh more high-tech look , I f I figured . But , that uh we'll discuss later.Marketing: But , are you going to draw it ?Industrial Designer: What ?User Interface: Th th yeah . Yeah .Industrial Designer: You want me to draw in three-D_?Marketing: The {disfmarker} Yeah . Yeah .Project Manager: {vocalsound}Marketing: Uh , I c I can't imagine .Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Uh , yeah , I caI ca I could I could show you . I could show you .Marketing: I can't imagine how how how it looks like .User Interface: {vocalsound}Industrial Designer: Well uhlet's say y uh you uh {disfmarker}Marketing: Yeah .Industrial Designer: Let's say that's your standard uh {disfmarker}Marketing: Design .User Interface: Yeah.Industrial Designer: That's a bit your d standard design . But you could actually go like uh something like this .Marketing: Mm-hmm .Industrial Designer: Andthen uh in three-D_ effect you could go {disfmarker} {vocalsound}User Interface: Um {disfmarker} {vocalsound}Marketing: Uh {disfmarker}Project Manager:{vocalsound} {vocalsound}Industrial Designer: So y you you just {disfmarker} Yeah , this is a {disfmarker} this {vocalsound} bit uh difficulty in{disfmarker}Marketing: {vocalsound}User Interface: {vocalsound}Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} I didn't take a major in art . So {disfmarker} {vocalsound}But but you could have uh uh a whole new uh the back back the the the depth , you could you could uh just play around a bit with .Marketing: Oh , okay . Okay.Industrial Designer: You you don't have to use standard uh {disfmarker}Marketing: Oh , okay .Project Manager: A little artistic .Industrial Designer: Yeah you