Lynne Neagle AM: Good afternoon. Can I welcome Members to the virtual meeting of the Children, Young People and Education Committee this afternoon? Inaccordance with Standing Order 34.19, I've determined that the public are excluded from the committee's meeting, in order to protect public health. Inaccordance with Standing Order 34.21, notice of this decision was included in the agenda for this meeting, which was published last Thursday. This meeting is,however, being broadcast live on Senedd.tv, with all participants joining via video-conference. A record of proceedings will be published as usual. Aside from theprocedural adaptation related to conducting proceedings remotely, all other Standing Order requirements for committees remain in place. The meeting isbilingual, and simultaneous translation from Welsh to English is available. Can I remind everyone that the microphones will be controlled centrally, so there's noneed to turn them on and off individually? We've received apologies for absence from Hefin David AM, and there is no substitution. Can I ask Members if there areany declarations of interest, please? No. Okay, thank you. Can I just note for the record that if for any reason I drop out of the meeting, the committee hasagreed that Dawn Bowden AM will temporarily chair while I try to rejoin? Moving on, then, to item 2 this afternoon, which is an evidence session with the WelshGovernment in relation to the impact of the coronavirus pandemic on health and social services as they relate to children and young people in Wales. I'm verypleased to welcome Vaughan Gething AM, the Minister for Health and Social Services; Julie Morgan AM, Deputy Minister for Health and Social Services; AlbertHeaney, deputy director general of the health and social services group; Nicola Edwards, deputy director, childcare, play and early years; Jean White, chiefnursing officer; and Tracey Breheny, who is deputy director of mental health, substance misuse and vulnerable groups. Thank you all very much for yourattendance today—we appreciate your time. We've got lots of questions that we'd like to cover, which we'll go straight into, with questions from SiânGwenllian.Sian Gwenllian AM: Good afternoon. How much do we understand about how this virus impacts children and young people, and their role intransmitting the virus? And how important is it that this is considered in the Welsh Government's exit strategy, especially in the context of reopeningschools?Vaughan Gething AM: Okay. I think it's fair to say that our understanding is developing across all age ranges about the virus and its impact. It's still thecase that children and young people are less likely to be affected significantly by COVID-19 than people with a range of healthcare conditions, and in particularthe age grade that we've seen, and that's underpinned the advice we've given to the whole population about self-isolation by people in age categories, as well asthe extremely vulnerable group we advise to shield. We still don't understand everything about the role that children have to play in the transmitting of the virus,and this is one of the difficulties we face. Because in cold and flu, children transmit the virus and they're also susceptible, in particular to the flu, as well; that'swhy we have a childhood immunisation programme for the flu as well. We do know that there's some developing evidence about what's called a Kawasaki-likesyndrome, but that's affecting very small numbers of children. We have one possible case in Wales—a child who's in critical care—but that isn't confirmed. That'sstill a developing knowledge base. So, the rest of the world is still trying to understand that too. But the generals still apply—that children are less likely to beaffected than older people, but can nevertheless still become unwell, and that's, if you like, one of the few positives in this condition. But as I say, we're stilllearning, so I won't try and present a fully accurate or finalised picture of knowledge in this area.Sian Gwenllian AM: And in terms—[Inaudible.]Vaughan GethingAM: Chair. Sorry. Excuse me, Chair. Sorry—with apologies to the Member, my translation stopped after a while, so I heard the first part translated, and then itjust fell off. I'm really sorry, but I didn't want to try to answer a different question to the one that may be being asked, and don't think that's fair to the Memberor other members of the committee.Lynne Neagle AM: Can we check that translation is back on, please, and maybe Siân could repeat her question?VaughanGething AM: I can hear it, yes.Lynne Neagle AM: Okay, Siân, would you mind repeating that, please?Sian Gwenllian AM: Not at all. I was discussing NHS services,including critical care services, and I was asking whether there is sufficient capacity in place to manage any increase. We, of course, hope that there won't be anyincrease, but should there be an increase, particularly in paediatric cases of coronavirus—let's say such a thing were to happen and this rare syndrome that youmentioned did emerge here in Wales—do we have the capacity in place to deal with these, and with the impact of coronavirus more generally onchildren?Vaughan Gething AM: At this point in time, the answer is 'yes', and there is always a significant caveat, though, and the 'but' that comes in there is thatdespite the fact that we've got a plan for surge capacity in paediatric care—. So, when we increased critical care right across the national health service, we ofcourse looked at paediatric care as part of that as well. So, we can flex up our capacity. But the challenge in all of that this is—it's part of my caution and theGovernment's caution about moves out of lockdown. So, it's much easier to go into lockdown than to come out of it, and I know you heard evidence from theMinister for Education last week about the approach that she wants to take and the principles behind doing that. So, actually, we'll need to think carefully about ifwe are reopening schools, even on a limited basis, what that then does to the circulation of coronavirus within that group of children as well as within the widercommunity, and then to try to understand whether the current capacity we have planned for in surge capacity is still going to be enough, because, actually, oneof the real success stories of the first stage of the fight with coronavirus is that we haven't had our critical care capacity filled up. It's been extended, and theextension has meant that we haven't been overtopped. If we hadn't done that, we definitely would have been. And we'll need to carry on testing ourselves andseeing what's happening and looking at the evidence and making sure that the plan we already have got that we published for paediatric critical care is still fit forpurpose, and again to reconsider if we need to do things differently. But that's part of the difficulty of being a Minister at the moment—you don't know everythingthat's coming, and on this disease in particular, we do know that we're still learning with each passing day.Lynne Neagle AM: [Inaudible.]—Siân?Sian GwenllianAM: Hello. Yes, those are the questions I had on that section.Lynne Neagle AM: Okay. Lovely. Thank you very much. Right, we'll move on now then to somequestion on access to health services from Dawn Bowden.Dawn Bowden AM: Thank you, Chair. Minister, just some concern that you will have heard about interms of parents and carers maybe not taking their children into the healthcare system for other conditions while the coronavirus pandemic is with us. How areyou monitoring that situation at the moment and have you had to look at your own commutation strategy in relation to that?Vaughan Gething AM: We've had tolook at some specifics around communication, so challenges about not just different languages, but about how we get messages to people in a very differentenvironment, and it's really challenging. So, for example, our health visitor service has absolutely not stopped. We've had to think about the way it works, and Ihad this conversation earlier this week with the chief nurse. But the bigger challenge are parents refusing to engage with the service. I understand people's fearand anxiety, but that then means that their family, and in particular their child, isn't getting the sort of proactive care that we would want them to have. So,there's a real concern both at the professional leadership end and for the chief nurse and for Ministers as well about how we can get through. That's actuallyabout rebuilding people's confidence in the service, and that isn't straightforward because there's a broader concern about coronavirus still circulating. But I thinkfor us it's really important to reiterate that we have thought again about how to provide the service. We've thought about how to protect staff and families andthe very clear message to parents is to please make sure that when health and care professionals are calling to help and support your family, please discuss yourconcerns with them. We're doing even more remotely, via telephone and online as well. There are times you need to be physically in the same place, for exampleon routine vaccinations, because we certainly haven't stopped that programme either, and I really wouldn't want to see that one of the unintended consequencesof what we've done is that if parents don't engage with that service, we could potentially see a rise in other diseases. We're all, I think—not just you in yourconstituency, but others who are on this call and others as well—seeing an occasional reappearance of measles, and that's because people didn't engage with thevaccination programme. I don't want, either myself or a different health Minister in the future, to be sat here talking about how in years to come the failure toengage in a vaccination programme has led to clearly avoidable but significant harm to children and young people and the communities they live in.Lynne NeagleAM: Thank you. Jean, you wanted to come in.Vaughan Gething AM: You need to unmute yourself. Oh, no—Professor Jean White: Thank you. I just want to add towhat the Minister said. So, I approached the immunisation lead in Public Health Wales to see exactly what has been happening recently and they said at the verybeginning of the outbreak parents were very reluctant about coming forward for their routine immunisations, but recently, through lots of energy from theimmunisation clinics and the leads within it reaching out to families, that trend seems to have turned and there's now a much better attendance. One of the mostimportant things we can do to protect our children is to make sure they have their vaccinations. So, yes, there was a bit of a downturn, but it does seem to beimproving at the moment. Thank you.Dawn Bowden AM: Okay, thank you. And that answered my second question, Chair, so I'm happy to leave it there. Thankyou.Lynne Neagle AM: Okay, thank you very much. We're going to go on now to some questions about mental health from Siân Gwenllian. Siân.Sian GwenllianAM: It's a cause of great concern to us all, of course, in terms of the impact of this crisis on mental health and well-being among our children and young people.So, what assessment has the Government undertaken of the impact on these aspects in young people and what work is being done to understand the impact ofthe pandemic? What longer term measures will be put in place and what support services will be put in place?Vaughan Gething AM: Again, I think it's helpful that


Project Manager: So {disfmarker} Hello . {vocalsound}Marketing: Good afternoon . Sorry I'm a little late .Project Manager: No problem .Marketing: Got stuck inthe traffic .Project Manager: Okay . {vocalsound}User Interface: {vocalsound}Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}Project Manager: That's possible on uh this timeof day . Starts at three o'clock . Uh {disfmarker} {vocalsound}Marketing: Yeah .Project Manager: Uh , let me see . Our fourth and last meeting . There he is . Yes. Okay this our last meeting . In this meeting we will discuss our final design . And we will do some evaluation about the , not only the product , but also theproject . And then we're going to close the project today as well . So after this you will be uh free to go and uh spend all your money . {vocalsound}UserInterface: {vocalsound}Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}Marketing: {vocalsound} {vocalsound}Project Manager: And this uh design , detailed design meetinguh we will discuss uh the look-and-feel of the design , the usability interface design , and we will do the product evaluation . Um , in order to do that we have thisagenda . We'll have the prototype presentation first . Then we will set up some evaluation cri um criteria . {vocalsound} Then we will look at the finance . Uh wewill have to see if everything we wanna do is also possible within our budget . Because everything costs money , and the more functions you wanna have themore money it will cost . So we have to see if it fits within the twelve and a half Euro per remote . But we will see that later . Then we will do the project uhevaluation , and the closing after that .Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}Project Manager: We've got forty minutes . So we will be finished at half past three . Butfirst um we will do the {disfmarker} this is prototype presentation . So , if some yeah if somebody wants step forward .Industrial Designer: Okay . Well this iswhat me and Richard came up with . The default spot for the on-off button . The mute button just below that . Then there's the volume and channel selectors .Simple plus-minus button . Uh we thought of a help button . If you hold it and you press another button , uh the help goes to the L_C_D_ screen . Then there'sthe zero to {disfmarker} one to zero buttons . A button for teletext . A button for the subtitles . And the company logo . So it's rather simple prototype . And uhwe'll have to see from testing uh how the users take it .Project Manager: Okay .Marketing: Um , {vocalsound} is this the moment where we ask or can askquestions about the functionality ?User Interface: So {disfmarker} Yeah . Yeah .Industrial Designer: Sure uh just pop in at any time .Marketing: Um , whenyou're in teletext there usually are buttons where you just you just press it and you g go to the next teletext page .User Interface: Uh , that's just uh the normaluh as th as the normal uh remote controls uh {disfmarker} So um {disfmarker} You put it uh {disfmarker} you um came in uh page uh one hundred . Now youcan use the normal uh one to zero buttons .Marketing: Mm-hmm .User Interface: And you {disfmarker} But you can also uh use the um button th for uhchanging the the channel . S so uh the shifting uh button . Uh for uh yeah shif shifting up in uh on t on t uh teletext , and shifting uh down . So{disfmarker}Marketing: Okay . Okay . Um {disfmarker} Yeah .Project Manager: Okay . Uh but um I thought in a few meetings earlier we uh uh tried to keep it uhsimple . Uh just a few buttons and large buttons .User Interface: Oh yeah ?Project Manager: But uh I think these are altogether quite a quite a few buttons . SoI'm wondering if we if we neely {disfmarker} really need all of those buttons .User Interface: {vocalsound} {vocalsound}Industrial Designer: I think if you lookat most controls , they've got more buttons than this .Project Manager: That's right .User Interface: Yeah .Industrial Designer: And well the on-off button , it's it'sa necessity .Project Manager: Yeah .User Interface: Yeah .Industrial Designer: You can't drop that one . The volume and channel buttons , you need youobviously need those those .Project Manager: Yeah .Industrial Designer: The mute button could be replaced uh by pressing the volume-down button twice . So wecould cancel that one . I think the help button really is necessaryUser Interface: Yeah yeah .Industrial Designer: because there's no other way to know whensomeone wants to know what a button does .Project Manager: Mm .User Interface: Uh , or you can build in uh when you press uh one button uh uh{disfmarker}Project Manager: Long time . Yeah .User Interface: Yeah .Project Manager: If you put {disfmarker}User Interface: But m Yeah . We disc discuss thatalready . But uh we think uh old people uh don't know that uh option . So uh they just put in uh put {vocalsound} press uh the button and uh{disfmarker}Project Manager: Yeah . Okay .Industrial Designer: Well , {vocalsound} you can't leave out the number buttons I guess .Project Manager: Yeah.User Interface: And uh {disfmarker}Project Manager: Uh teletext and subtitles are yeah necessary .Industrial Designer: And {disfmarker} {vocalsound}UserInterface: Oh .Industrial Designer: Yeah .Marketing: Yeah .Project Manager: Okay .Industrial Designer: So it's rather basic already .Marketing: Yeah . Think so .That's what I pointed out earlier . If you just make a control for just the T_V_ there's just not much to gain here .Project Manager: Yep .User Interface: Yeah.Project Manager: Okay . So we had somebody about th interfa Something about the design of the buttons there ?Industrial Designer: Yeah , they're{disfmarker}Project Manager: Just n normal plain buttons .User Interface: Yeah . Yeah ,Industrial Designer: It's rather hard to draw on the white-board .UserInterface: it {disfmarker}Industrial Designer: But they're supposed to be equal sized , round , with a with a little logo on it for the for the volume , the thetriangle and stuff .Project Manager: Yeah . 'Kay .User Interface: Yeah yeah . Just to recognise it , so uh {disfmarker}Industrial Designer: Just for recognition.User Interface: Uh yeah and now we don't need uh LEDs or um {disfmarker} Y uhProject Manager: No .User Interface: s some uh remote controls uh do it also,Project Manager: No .User Interface: but um uh because we use the little display we don't uh have to use it . Uh so {disfmarker}Project Manager: Yeah . Okay.Industrial Designer: So and for the materials we've just chosen for rubber buttons . With a a different colour than the case .User Interface: Nay .ProjectManager: Yep .Industrial Designer: So they jump out .Project Manager: Okay .Industrial Designer: And uh that's about it .Project Manager: That's nice . Thenbecause we only have thirty minutes left , I will move on to the finance part , which is pretty exciting , to see if it's all possible what we wanna do . And I can tellyou that we're going to have a pretty hard time producing this for twelve and a half Euros .Marketing: {vocalsound}User Interface: Mm .Project Manager: If wesee {disfmarker} I don't know if I've filled in correctly , so just correct me if you see uh something wrong . I counted two batteries . But maybe we can also useone . I don't know if it's possible .Marketing: Since it rechargeable .Project Manager: It's rechargeable . That's right .User Interface: Yeah we can u just uh {gap}{disfmarker}Project Manager: Okay . That's two Euros off . {vocalsound}User Interface: 'Kay . {vocalsound}Project Manager: We need the advanced chip . Sothere's not much to uh {vocalsound} to save there .Industrial Designer: Yep .Project Manager: {vocalsound} Here we have the single curves . Uh we can see thatthe difference between uncurved and the single curved is one Euro . Um ,User Interface: Mm .Project Manager: I don't know , but I think the single curved isgood for design , and also for the display to have a prominent place on the remote control .User Interface: Yeah .Project Manager: I think we have to keep that.Industrial Designer: Yes .User Interface: Yeah .Project Manager: Then we have the case material supplements . It's plastic . It's the cheapest one we need . Sothat's uh not much to save either . But then the biggest costs are the buttons . So maybe we really should try to discard some buttons to uh keep our costs low.User Interface: Okay .Project Manager: Because you have to {disfmarker} we will have to get the twelve and a half Euros at the end . Um ,User Interface: Yeah.Project Manager: so if we {disfmarker} Let's fir first count the buttons we have now .User Interface: Uh {disfmarker} Sixteen , I believe so .Project Manager:Because I {disfmarker} {vocalsound} Sixteen . Nah , that will be even more then . Eighteen Euros . So ,User Interface: Uh seventeen . Uh with the help button.Project Manager: seventeen .Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}Marketing: Um {disfmarker}Project Manager: Okay , including the help ?Industrial Designer: Yep.Marketing: Damn .Project Manager: Yeah . Uh seventeen .User Interface: Yeah .Project Manager: I think we can uh discard the help and the mute button uh bypressing down volume long , or pressing down a a number long .Marketing: {vocalsound}User Interface: {gap} .Industrial Designer: Yep .Project Manager: Thatsaves us uh one Euro already . 'Cause then we have got fifteen I think ?Industrial Designer: Yeah .Marketing: Wouldn't {disfmarker}Project Manager: Fifteenbuttons .Marketing: Yeah . No . That wouldn't be an option .Project Manager: And this is {disfmarker}Marketing: Uh , d I assume you'd count the volume andchannel thingies for two buttons each , right ?Project Manager: No those are one , I think .User Interface: Yeah . Where did uh {disfmarker}{vocalsound}Marketing: Well , think actually there're two buttons ,User Interface: Uh , it's just one button .Marketing: aren't they ?User Interface: But , um{disfmarker} Yeah . There were uh two uh for one big button . But they are uh more expensive than the small ones . Uh , yeah . So {disfmarker}ProjectManager: Yeah but th it's not stated in this files .User Interface: It's just a {gap} .Project Manager: So maybe we can we can even make one button with thevolume and the channel in one , by pressingMarketing: Well I was thinking , maybe you could just integrate three of those numbers to one button .ProjectManager: That's possibility as well .Marketing: That would cut the cost .Project Manager: So {disfmarker} And it's good for the design as well . So you can make{disfmarker} Uh let's see . If you make this {disfmarker} {vocalsound} Looks a bit like uh a cross . {vocalsound} Plus . Min .User Interface: But I don't don'tknow if if it's cheaper .Project Manager: Uh s yeah channel .User Interface: So uh ,Project Manager: Yeah wUser Interface: we've still got four buttons , but justum {disfmarker} So {disfmarker}Project Manager: Yeah th I think they count uh the materials .User Interface: You got uh not not a butt button itself , but uh onthe um {disfmarker}Project Manager: Yeah on the chip there . Yeah .User Interface: Yeah . On the chip you've got still uh four uh four buttons .IndustrialDesigner: Yeah .Marketing: Mm-hmm .Project Manager: That's right . That's right .User Interface: So {disfmarker}Project Manager: But I think because we havethe advanced chipMarketing: Yeah .Project Manager: {vocalsound} we can just count this as one button .User Interface: Yeah , but {disfmarker}Marketing:


Grad A: OK , we 're on .Professor B: Yeah .Grad A: So , I think this is gonna be a pretty short meeting because I have four agenda items , three of them wererequested by Jane who is not gonna be at the meeting today .  So . {vocalsound} The uh first was transcription status . Does anyone besides Jane know what thetranscription status is ?PhD F: Um , sort of , I do , peripherally .PhD C: Is that English ?PhD F: Um {disfmarker} Well first of all with IBM I got a note from Brianyesterday saying that they finally made the tape for the thing that we sent them a {pause} week or week and a half agoPhD D: That 's our system .Grad A: Ugh!PhD F: and that it 's gone out to the transcribers and hopefully next week we 'll have the transcription back from that .Grad A: C can I have a pen ?PhD F: Um{disfmarker} Jane seems to be um moving right along on the transcriptions from the ICSI side . She 's assigned , I think probably five or six m more meetings.PhD C: Yeah , I think we 're up to MR thirteen or something .PhD D: Mmm .PhD F: Yeah , so um , I guess she 's hired some new transcribersPhD D: Speaking{disfmarker}Grad E: Which meetings is she transcribing ?PhD F: and {disfmarker} Um well we 've {disfmarker} we 've run out of E D Us because a certainnumber of them are um , sort of awaiting to go to IBM .Grad E: OK .PhD C: For IBM , yeah .PhD D: Hmm .Grad E: OK .PhD F: and the rest are in process beingtranscribed uh here .PhD D: So does she have transcribers right now who are basically sitting idle because there 's no data back from IBMGrad E: So we 're doingsome in parallel .Grad A: Yep .PhD F: No .Grad A: No , no .PhD F: Oh no no .Grad A: We haven't done that process .PhD D: no ?PhD F: No . We 're not waiting onthem .Grad A: So . They ' r they 're doing the full transcription process .PhD D: Oh . Oh , OK .Grad E: So they 're just doing their own thing until {disfmarker}PhDF: Yeah .PhD D: Because I {disfmarker} I need to ask Jane whether it 's {disfmarker} it would be OK for her {disfmarker} um , s some of her people totranscribe uh some of the initial data we got from the SmartKom data collection , which is these short like five or seven minute sessions .PhD F: We 're doing it inparallel , yeah .Grad E: OK .PhD C: Yep .PhD D: Um and we want it {disfmarker} You know , we need {disfmarker} The {disfmarker} Again , we {disfmarker} wehave a similar uh logistic set - up where we are supposed to send the data to MunichGrad A: Right .PhD D: and get it transcribed and get it back . But to getgoing we would like some of the data transcribed right away so we can get started .Grad A: Yep , sounds familiar .PhD D: And so um I wanted to ask Jane if{disfmarker} if uh , you know , maybe one of their transcribers could {disfmarker} could do {disfmarker} I mean since these are very short , that should reallybe uh ,Professor B: Mm - hmm .PhD D: um {disfmarker} It 's {disfmarker}PhD C: There 's only two channels . So it 's only {disfmarker} Yeah .PhD D: Yeah .PhDC: As the synthesis doesn't have to be transcribed I think .PhD D: It 's only two {disfmarker} Right , sPhD C: So .PhD D: Yeah . So {disfmarker} So it 's basicallyone channel to transcribe . And it 's {disfmarker} One session is only uh like seven {disfmarker}Professor B: So that should have ma many fewer {disfmarker}And it 's also not uh a bunch of interruptions with people and all that ,PhD D: Right . And some of it is read speech , so we could give them the {disfmarker} thething that they 're readingProfessor B: right ? So . Yeah .PhD D: and they just may {disfmarker}Grad A: Make sure it 's right .PhD C: Yep .PhD D: And so um ,um , I guess since she 's {disfmarker} I was gonna ask her but since she 's not around I {disfmarker} maybe I 'll {disfmarker}Professor B: Yeah , well it certainlyseems {disfmarker}PhD D: Uh if {disfmarker} if that 's OK with you to {disfmarker} to , you know , get that stuff uh {disfmarker} to ask her for that , then I 'lldo that .Professor B: Yeah . Yeah , if we 're held up on this other stuff a little bit in order to encompass that , that 's OK because I I um , I mean I still have highhopes that the that the IBM pipeline 'll work out for us , so it 's {disfmarker}PhD D: Yeah . OK , yeah .Professor B: Yeah .PhD D: Alrighty .PhD F: Oh , yeah , andalso related to the transcription stuff , so I 've been trying to keep a web page uh up to date f showing what the current status is of the trans of all the things we've collected and what stage each meeting is in , in terms of whether it 's {disfmarker}Grad A: Can you mail that out to the list ?PhD F: Mm - hmm , yeah I will . I{disfmarker} That 's the thing that I sent out just to foo people saying can you update these pagesGrad A: Oh , OK , OK .PhD F: and so that 's where I 'm puttingit but I 'll {disfmarker} I 'll send it out to the list telling people to look at it .Grad A: Yeah , I haven't done that . So . I have lots of stuff to add that 's just in myown directory .PhD F: Yeah .Grad A: I 'll try to get to that . OK . So Jane also wanted to talk about participant approval , but I don't really think there 's much totalk about . I 'm just gonna do it . And uh , if anyone objects too much then they can do it instead .Professor B: You are going to {disfmarker}Grad A: I 'm gonnasend out to the participants , uh , with links to web pages which contain the transcripts and allow them to {pause} suggest edits . And then bleep them out.Professor B: OK .Grad A: For the ones that we have . Um {disfmarker}PhD C: So but it 's just transcripts , not the {disfmarker} not the audio ?Grad A: Nope ,they 'll have access to the audio also .PhD C: OK , yeah , yep . Ah .Grad A: I mean that 's my intention . Because the transcripts might not be right .PhD C: Yeah.PhD F: So {disfmarker}Grad A: So you want people to be able to listen to them .PhD C: Yeah .PhD F: So , um the audio that they 're gonna have access to , willthat be the uncompressed version ? Or will you have scripts that like uncompress the various pieces and {disfmarker}Grad A: Oh , that 's a good point . That 's agood point . Yeah , it 's {disfmarker} it 's probably going to have to be the uncompressed versions because , uh , uh , it takes too long to do random accessdecompression .PhD F: Hmm . Yeah , I was just wondering because we 're uh running out of the un - backed - up disk space onGrad A: Well , that was the otherpoint .PhD F: Oh , was that another one ?Grad A: Yep , that 's another agenda item .PhD F: OK . I 'll wait .Grad A: So , uh {disfmarker} But that is a good pointso we 'll get to that , too . Um , DARPA demo status , not much to say . The back - end stuff is working out fine . It 's more or less ready to go . I 've added somestuff that uh indes indexes by the meeting type MR , EDU , et cetera and also by the user ID . So that the front - end can then do filtering based on that as well .Uh {disfmarker} The back - end is uh , going more slowly as I s I think I said before just cuz I 'm not much of a Tcl - TK programmer . And uh Dave Gelbart sayshe 's a little too busy . So I think Don and I are gonna work on that and {disfmarker} and you and I can just talk about it off - line more .Grad E: Right .Grad A:But uh {pause} the back - end was pretty smooth .Professor B: OhGrad A: So I think , we 'll have something . It may not be as {disfmarker} As pretty as wemight like , but we 'll have something .Professor B: I wondered whe when we would reach Dave 's saturation point . He 's sort of been {disfmarker} beenvolunteering for everythingGrad A: Yeah .Professor B: and {pause} and uh {disfmarker}PhD D: Mm - hmm .Professor B: O K . Finally said he was too busy . Iguess we reached it .Grad A: Yeah , he {disfmarker} he actually {disfmarker} he volunteered but then he s then he retracted it . So . Oh well . Um{disfmarker}Grad E: And , also um , I was just showing Andreas , I got um an X Waves kind of display , and I don't know how much more we can do with it{disfmarker} with like the prosodic stuff where we have like stylized pitches and signals and the transcripts on the bottomGrad A: Oh , cool .Grad E: so , rightnow it 's just an X Waves and then you have three windows but I don't know , it looked pretty nice and I 'm sure it {disfmarker} think it has potential for a littlesomething ,Grad A: For a demo ?Grad E: yeah , for a demo .Grad A: Yeah , sounds good .Grad E: So {disfmarker}Professor B: OK , so again , the issue is{disfmarker} For July , the issue 's gonna be what can we fit into a Windows machine , uh , and so on , but {disfmarker}Grad E: Oh . OK .Grad A: So it might justbe slides .Grad E: Yeah , OK .PhD C: Well {disfmarker} {pause} Yeah .Grad E: Well , we 'll see , um {disfmarker}PhD C: I 've been putting together uhTranscriber things for Windows so i And I installed it on Dave Gelbart 's PC and it worked just fine . So hopefully that will work .PhD D: Really ? So is that{disfmarker} Because there 's some people um {disfmarker} It would be cool if we could uh get that to work uh at {disfmarker} at SRIPhD C: Yeah . Yep .PhD D:because the um {disfmarker}Grad A: Well Transcriber is Tcl - TK , very generic with Snack ,PhD D: we have m m We have more Windows machines to run the{disfmarker}PhD C: Yeah .Grad A: so basically anything you can get Snack to run on , it will work .PhD D: Right .PhD C: Yeah . Yeah but {disfmarker} But theproblem is the version Transcriber works with , the Snack version , is one point six whatever and that 's not anymore supported . It 's not on {disfmarker} on theweb page anymore . But I just wrote an email to {disfmarker} to the author of {disfmarker} to the Snack author and he sent me to one point six whateverlibraryGrad A: Well I thought it was packaged with Transcriber ?PhD C: and so it works . Yeah , but then you can't add our patches and then the {disfmarker} thenew version is {disfmarker} is totally differentGrad A: Oh .PhD C: a and in {disfmarker} yeah , in terms of {disfmarker} of the source code .Grad A: Ah .PhD C:You {disfmarker} you can't find the Tcl files anymore . It 's some whatever wrapped thingPhD D: Mmm .PhD C: and you can't {disfmarker} you can't access thatso you have to install {disfmarker} First install Tcl then install Snack and then install the Transcriber thing and then do the patches .Grad A: Patch . Ugh !PhD D: I{disfmarker} I wonder if {disfmarker} if we should contribute our changes back to the authors so that they maintain those changes along {disfmarker}PhD C:Yeah . Yeah .Grad A: We have {disfmarker} Yeah b it 's just hasn't made it into the release yet .PhD D: We have ? Oh . Oh , OK .PhD F: So did you um put the uh{disfmarker} {vocalsound} the NT version out on the uh Meeting Recorder page ? Or {disfmarker}PhD C: No , I haven't done that yet . I 'm {disfmarker} ohNope . But I definitely will do that .Professor B: So , can some of the stuff that Don 's talking about somehow fit into this Uh , mean you just have a set ofnumbers that are associated with the {disfmarker}Grad E: Yeah .PhD C: So {disfmarker}Grad E: Yeah , it 's basically ASCII files or binary files , whateverrepresentation . Just three different {disfmarker} It 's a waveform and just a stylized pitch vector basically so it 's {disfmarker}PhD D: So {disfmarker} So{disfmarker} Well {disfmarker}Grad E: I mean we could do it in Matl - {comment} I mean you could do it in a number of different places I 'm sure .PhD D: But{disfmarker} But it would be cool if the Transcriber interface had like another window for the {disfmarker} you know , maybe above the waveform where it would


Project Manager: Okay um , welcome to our detailed design meeting . I'm pretty excited . Let's start it's approximately fifteen forty or something like that . Okayum the agenda {disfmarker} we're gonna do an opening and then um I'll talk about the minutes from the last meeting , what we d discussed um , then we'll havethe prototype presentation and a look at the evaluation criteria . We'll look at the finances and finally a {disfmarker} do a production evaluation and close . So ,starting off with the um last {disfmarker} the last one , oh I don't have it here um , but we talked about energy , we're gonna use a kinetic battery um , we wantto use a simple chip , because we're not gonna need a a shuffle um , we're gonna need a scroll um , we're choosing a latex case w in fruity colours that's curvedand um we're using push buttons uh with a supplement of an on-screen menu . And it sounded like we had set um like eight or nine buttons , including fivepre-set channels . Okay ? Let's do the look and feel design presentation first .User Interface: Right , do you wanna start ?Industrial Designer: Right , well wemade three different prototypes and I guess we'll start with with this one . Um we have our colours not {disfmarker} are not fixed , but this is the general shape .Um it's {disfmarker} you hold it sort of either like like this in your left hand or you switch it over and uh it's easily adaptable to either hand . You can push thebuttons with your thumb like a mobile phone , or you can push them with your index finger of your other hand , or even {disfmarker} I mean there's a wholevariety , you can hold it like this and press it with your same index finger . Uh we have the on off button at the tip , very visible , very big . We have our up anddown buttons , which are also gonna be our channel selectors , and we have our little menu button here . If you push {disfmarker} if you're just pushing thesenormally , they're the menu buttons , if {disfmarker} uh the volume buttons rather . If you press select once , they become channel changing buttons . If wepress select three times , the menu with the other features and pro possibly also with your T_V_ channel choices shows up , and you have your five presets downhere . Um if people wanna grab hold of that , see how it feels in your hand . That's our number one prototype . Um do you wanna present the potato ,ProjectManager: {gap} like a little lightning in it .Industrial Designer: or shall I present the Martian ?User Interface: Okay ,Project Manager: The little lightning bolt in it ,very cute .User Interface: um {disfmarker} What {disfmarker} We call that one the rhombus ,Marketing: I could {disfmarker}Project Manager: The v therhombus rhombus ?User Interface: uh the rhombus .Industrial Designer: That's the rhombus , yep .User Interface: Um this one is known as the potato , uhit'sIndustrial Designer: {vocalsound}User Interface: it's a {vocalsound}Marketing: {vocalsound}User Interface: how can I present it ? It's an ergonomic shape ,so it it fits in your hand nicely . Um it's designed to be used either in your left hand or or in your right hand . Um I've gone here just for just for four buttons onthis one . Um the two blue buttons here are for adjusting the volume . So you've got volume up and volume down on the other side here . Um the red ones arefor uh changing channels , channel up and channel down and that's um moves between your favourite channels that you've selected . Uh this middle button herebrings up the on-screen menu and when you're working in the on-screen menu you use the other four buttons to navigate around the menu system and themiddle button uh to select and that's basically it , that's the potato .Project Manager: Um on , off ?User Interface: Uh that would be one of your channels ,basically ,Project Manager: Okay .User Interface: so like channel zero would be t to switch switch the machine off ,Project Manager: Yeah we turn it off .UserInterface: yeah .Marketing: Could the middle button of the on-screen menu function as a power button ?User Interface: Um not really ,Industrial Designer:{gap}User Interface: it would make it hard to turn the machine off , to turn your T_V_ off .Project Manager: Mm-hmm .Industrial Designer: If you pressed andheld it maybe .User Interface: Yeah yeah , that that'd be one way of doing it , yeah . That'd work , yeah .Marketing: If you like held it down , that would be on off.Industrial Designer: Yeah . On off , that's a possibility , yeah .Project Manager: Okay .Industrial Designer: And then finally we have um the Martian or the pear ,either way . Um it's a bit different , just a little bit more of a creative feel . Uh you have the on off toggle stem on the top . {vocalsound} We have the five presetseeds {vocalsound} .Project Manager: {vocalsound}Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} And then you have on the sides to make it a little bit morethree-dimensional , you have your channel changing , volume changing buttons and your menu button right here in the middle . So , that's for your considerationas well , plus it's an interesting talking point to have standing up .User Interface: Let's pass .Industrial Designer: We figured it could stand up like this on yourtable , if you wanted it to , if I made the bot the bottom flat . {vocalsound}Project Manager: Uh-huh . {vocalsound}Marketing: Sorry , what's the yellow one inthe middle ,Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Uh the menu select button . {vocalsound}Marketing: I forgot .Project Manager: {gap} Very interesting .{vocalsound} I think that one's my favourite .Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}User Interface: So that's {disfmarker} So that's our three prototypes . Umbasically , in terms of making decisions , what we'd need to do is first of all decide on a form uh which of the three different shapes we want , then decide whatkind of button layout we want , how many buttons , and then to choose what colours we want to make the buttons and if we wanna put any text on the device ,like label on the buttons or put a brand name or or a logo on it or whatever .Marketing: {vocalsound}Project Manager: Mm-hmm .Industrial Designer: We werewe were thinking that normally we'd go for fruity colours , but maybe we're also thinking that your sort of middle aged man , for an example customer , might notwant a fruity coloured remote , so m maybe we'd have one version that's a bit toned down ,Project Manager: Mm 'kay .Industrial Designer: maybe with with lesscontrasts on it . Yeah , something still a little bright to make it hard to lose , but {disfmarker}User Interface: Would {disfmarker} Yeah , but we don't want it tolook like a kids' toy {gap} .Industrial Designer: {gap} yeah .Project Manager: Now that was one thing that we brought up over email . I don't know if you pickedup your email , but um the f the um feature that we considered for it not getting lost .User Interface: Yeah .Industrial Designer: Right . Well we were we weretalking about that a little bit when we got that email and we think that each of these are so distinctive , that it {disfmarker} it's not just like another piece oftechnology around your house . It's gonna be somewhere that it can be seen .Project Manager: Mm-hmm .Industrial Designer: So we're we're not thinking thatit's gonna be as critical to have the loss {disfmarker}Marketing: But if it's like under covers or like in a couch you still can't see it .Project Manager: It's really{disfmarker} Would it be very difficult to um just have an external device that like I dunno , you tape to your to your T_V_ um that when you press it you ha alittle light beep goes off ? Do you think that would be conceptually possible ?Industrial Designer: I think {disfmarker}User Interface: I think it would be difficulttechnologically ,Project Manager: Mm-hmm .User Interface: because if your if your remote's lost it's probably under the settee and in that case you can't youcan't send an infrared sing signal to it to find it ,Project Manager: Mm .User Interface: s so it's {disfmarker} I'm not quite sure how it would workProject Manager:That's true , mm 'kay .Industrial Designer: Yeah .User Interface: and then I wonder if it's if it's more just a gimmick then anything else . Uh I mean ho how manytimes do you really , seriously lose your remote control and would would a device like that actually help you to find it ?Industrial Designer: There might besomething that you can do in the circuit board and the chip to make it make a noise or something , but it would take a lot more development than we have thisafternoon .Project Manager: Mm-hmm . Okay , that's a fair evaluation . Getting lost . Um we {disfmarker} so we do we've decided not to worry about that fornow . Okay 'cause {disfmarker} well , the designs are very bright , so you're right , they're gonna stick out , but um {disfmarker}Industrial Designer: So d dopeople have a preference as far as feel and functionality ? Um .Marketing: I feel like this is simil {vocalsound} or it's sort of what already exists so if we're tryingto think of something sort of like new and fun , even though this is like what you're init I'm initially drawn to , just 'cause it's like comfortable and like notdifferent . I sort of like this one , like I I don't know why , it just it's like small but still sort of like cute looking , I dunno . But I also like the b the side buttons onthat one , like I think that's kind of neat .Project Manager: Mm-hmm .Marketing: But I dunno how much any of this has to do with the fashionable , sort of coollooking thing that we also need to focus on {vocalsound} .Project Manager: Could we maybe have like an extra button on the top for on off ? So then w wewouldn't have to have like a dual function ?Industrial Designer: Mm yeah ,User Interface: Yeah , it's possible , yeah , yeah .Marketing: Ah ,Industrial Designer:that's good , that's good .Marketing: there we go .Industrial Designer: Here , stick it on .User Interface: {vocalsound} Put an extra the button on {gap}{vocalsound} .Marketing: {vocalsound}Project Manager: Sure .Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}Project Manager: Um uh why don't we do a product evaluationusing your criteria , if you've developed some ?Marketing: Well do we w {vocalsound} like I think we're supposed to have one that we do it for .Project Manager:Oh okay . Okay .Marketing: That was {vocalsound} {disfmarker}Industrial Designer: So where {disfmarker}Marketing: I was a little vague on what exactly I'msupposed to do , but let me {disfmarker} I have to like write something on the whiteboard , so .Project Manager: Okay . Do you need thisIndustrial Designer:{vocalsound}Project Manager: or just write on the white board ?Marketing: No , I actually don't have like a PowerPointy thing ,Project Manager: Okay .IndustrialDesigner: Right .Marketing: 'cause I think it would be redundant .Industrial Designer: Okay .Marketing: I dunno .Project Manager: It's kind of like uh like ajoystick kind of thing ,Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Ooh .Project Manager: you know ,User Interface: {vocalsound} Cool .Project Manager: kinda push it{vocalsound} .Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Hey .Project Manager: 'Kay .Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}Project Manager: Maybe a little smaller than that{gap} .Industrial Designer: No , I kinda like it .User Interface: {vocalsound}Industrial Designer: That's hard to miss .User Interface: It makes look more fruity aswell .Project Manager: Oh it does ,Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}Project Manager: it's kind of like {disfmarker}Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}


Grad B: So I guess this is more or less now just to get you up to date , Johno . This is what , uh ,Grad C: This is a meeting for me .Grad B: um , Eva , Bhaskara ,and I did .Grad D: Did you add more stuff to it ? {pause} later ?Grad B: Um . Why ?Grad D: Um . I don't know . There were , like , the {disfmarker} you know ,@ @ and all that stuff . But . I thought you {disfmarker} you said you were adding stuffGrad B: Uh , no .Grad D: but {pause} I don't know .Grad B: This is{disfmarker} Um , Ha ! Very nice . Um , so we thought that , {vocalsound} We can write up uh , an element , and {disfmarker} for each of the situation nodesthat we observed in the Bayes - net ? So . What 's the situation like at the entity that is mentioned ? if we know anything about it ? Is it under construction ? Or isit on fire or something {pause} happening to it ? Or is it stable ? and so forth , going all the way um , f through Parking , Location , Hotel , Car , Restroom , @ @{comment} Riots , Fairs , Strikes , or Disasters .Grad C: So is {disfmarker} This is {disfmarker} A situation are {disfmarker} is all the things which can behappening right now ? Or , what is the situation type ?Grad B: That 's basically {pause} just specifying the {disfmarker} the input for the {disfmarker} w what'sGrad C: Oh , I see y Why are you specifying it in XML ?Grad B: Um . Just because it forces us to be specific about the values {pause} here ?Grad C: OK .Grad B:And , also , I mean , this is a {disfmarker} what the input is going to be . Right ? So , we will , uh {disfmarker} This is a schema . This is {disfmarker}Grad C:Well , yeah . I just don't know if this is th l what the {disfmarker} Does {disfmarker} This is what Java Bayes takes ? as a Bayes - net spec ?Grad B: No , becauseI mean if we {disfmarker} I mean we 're sure gonna interface to {disfmarker} We 're gonna get an XML document from somewhere . Right ? And that XMLdocument will say " We are able to {disfmarker} We were able to observe that w the element , um , @ @ {comment} of the Location that the car is near . " Sothat 's gonna be {disfmarker} {vocalsound} {comment} Um .Grad C: So this is the situational context , everything in it . Is that what Situation is short for , shisituational context ?Grad B: Yep .Grad C: OK .Grad B: So this is just , again , a an XML schemata which defines a set of possible , uh , permissible XML structures, which we view as input into the Bayes - net . Right ?Grad C: And then we can r {pause} uh possibly run one of them uh transformations ? That put it into theformat that the Bayes n or Java Bayes or whatever wants ?Grad B: Yea - Are you talking {disfmarker} are you talking about the {disfmarker} the structure ?GradC: Well it {disfmarker}Grad B: I mean when you observe a node .Grad C: When you {disfmarker} when you say {pause} the input to the {pause} v Java Bayes ,{comment} it takes a certain format ,Grad B: Um - hmm .Grad C: right ? Which I don't think is this . Although I don't know .Grad B: No , it 's certainly not this .Nuh .Grad C: So you could just {disfmarker} Couldn't you just run a {disfmarker}Grad B: XSL . {comment} Yeah .Grad C: Yeah . To convert it into the JavaBayes for format ?Grad B: Yep .Grad C: OK .Grad B: That 's {disfmarker} That 's no problem , but I even think that , um {disfmarker} I mean , once{disfmarker} Once you have this sort of as {disfmarker} running as a module {disfmarker} Right ? What you want is {disfmarker} You wanna say , " OK , giveme the posterior probabilities of the Go - there {pause} node , when this is happening . " Right ? When the person said this , the car is there , it 's raining , andthis is happening . And with this you can specify the {disfmarker} what 's happening in the situation , and what 's happening with the user . So we get{disfmarker} After we are done , through the Situation we get the User Vector . So , this is a {disfmarker}Grad C: So this is just a specification of all the possibleinputs ?Grad B: Yep . And , all the possible outputs , too . So , we have , um , for example , the , uh , Go - there decision nodeGrad C: OK .Grad B: which has twoelements , going - there and its posterior probability , and not - going - there and its posterior probability , because the output is always gonna be all the decisionnodes and all the {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} a all the posterior probabilities for all the values .Grad C: And then we would just look at the , eh , Struct that wewanna look at in terms of if {disfmarker} if we 're only asking about one of the {disfmarker} So like , if I 'm just interested in the going - there node , I wouldjust pull that information out of the Struct that gets return that would {disfmarker} that Java Bayes would output ?Grad B: Um , pretty much , yes , but I think it's a little bit more complex . As , if I understand it correctly , it always gives you all the posterior probabilities for all the values of all decision nodes . So , whenwe input something , we always get the , uh , posterior probabilities for all of these . Right ?Grad C: OK .Grad B: So there is no way of telling it t not to tell usabout the EVA {pause} values .Grad C: Yeah , wait I agree , that 's {disfmarker} yeah , use {disfmarker} oh , uh {pause} Yeah , OK .Grad B: So {disfmarker}so we get this whole list of {disfmarker} of , um , things , and the question is what to do with it , what to hand on , how to interpret it , in a sense . So y you saidif you {disfmarker} " I 'm only interested in whether he wants to go there or not " , then I just look at that node , look which one {disfmarker}Grad C: Look atthat Struct in the output ,Grad B: Yep .Grad C: right ?Grad B: Look at that Struct in the {disfmarker} the output , even though I wouldn't call it a " Struct " . But.Grad C: Well i well , it 's an XML Structure that 's being res returned ,Grad B: Oh . Mm - hmm .Grad C: right ?Grad B: So every part of a structure is a " Struct " .Yeah .Grad C: Yeah , I just uh {disfmarker} I just was {disfmarker} abbreviated it to Struct in my head , and started going with that .Grad B: That element orobject , I would say .Grad C: Not a C Struct . That 's not what I was trying to kGrad B: Yeah .Grad C: though yeah .Grad B: OK . And , um , the reason is{disfmarker} why I think it 's a little bit more complex or why {disfmarker} why we can even think about it as an interesting problem in and of itself is{disfmarker} Um . So . The , uh {disfmarker} Let 's look at an example .Grad C: Well , w wouldn't we just take the structure that 's outputted and then runanother transformation on it , that would just dump the one that we wanted out ?Grad B: Yeah . w We 'd need to prune . Right ? Throw things away .Grad C: Well, actually , you don't even need to do that with XML .Grad B: NoGrad C: D Can't you just look at one specific {disfmarker}Grad B: Yeah , exactly . The{disfmarker} @ @ {comment} Xerxes allows you to say , u " Just give me the value of that , and that , and that . " But , we don't really know what we 'reinterested in {pause} before we look at the complete {disfmarker} at {disfmarker} at the overall result . So the person said , um , " Where is X ? " and so , wewant to know , um , is {disfmarker} Does he want info ? o on this ? or know the location ? Or does he want to go there ? Let 's assume this is our {disfmarker}our question .Grad C: Sure .Grad B: Nuh ? So . Um . Do this in Perl . So we get {disfmarker} OK . Let 's assume this is the output . So . We should con be able toconclude from that that {disfmarker} I mean . It 's always gonna give us a value of how likely we think i it is that he wants to go there and doesn't want to gothere , or how likely it is that he wants to get information . But , maybe w we should just reverse this to make it a little bit more delicate . So , does he wannaknow where it is ? or does he wanna go there ?Grad C: He wants to know where it is .Grad B: Right . I {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I tend to agree . And if it 's{disfmarker} If {disfmarker}Grad C: Well now , y I mean , you could {disfmarker}Grad B: And i if there 's sort of a clear winner here , and , um {disfmarker}and this is pretty , uh {disfmarker} indifferent , then we {disfmarker} then we might conclude that he actually wants to just know where , uh t uh , he does wantto go there .Grad C: Uh , out of curiosity , is there a reason why we wouldn't combine these three nodes ? into one smaller subnet ? that would just basically be{pause} the question for {disfmarker} We have " where is X ? " is the question , right ? That would just be Info - on or Location ? Based upon {disfmarker}GradB: Or Go - there . A lot of people ask that , if they actually just wanna go there . People come up to you on campus and say , " Where 's the library ? " You 'regonna say {disfmarker} y you 're gonna say , g " Go down that way . " You 're not gonna say " It 's {disfmarker} It 's five hundred yards away from you " or " It's north of you " , or {disfmarker} " it 's located {disfmarker} "Grad C: Well , I mean {disfmarker} But the {disfmarker} there 's {disfmarker} So you just havethree decisions for the final node , that would link thes these three nodes in the net together .Grad B: Um . I don't know whether I understand what you mean .But . Again , in this {disfmarker} Given this input , we , also in some situations , may wanna postulate an opinion whether that person wants to go there now thenicest way , use a cab , or so s wants to know it {disfmarker} wants to know where it is because he wants something fixed there , because he wants to visit t it orwhatever . So , it {disfmarker} n I mean {disfmarker} a All I 'm saying is , whatever our input is , we 're always gonna get the full output . And some{disfmarker} some things will always be sort of too {disfmarker} not significant enough .Grad C: Wha Or i or i it 'll be tight . You won't {disfmarker} it 'll be hardto decide .Grad B: Yep .Grad C: But I mean , I guess {disfmarker} I guess the thing is , uh , this is another , smaller , case of reasoning in the case of anuncertainty , which makes me think Bayes - net should be the way to solve these things . So if you had {disfmarker} If for every construction ,Grad B: Oh !GradC: right ? you could say , " Well , there {disfmarker} Here 's the Where - Is construction . " And for the Where - Is construction , we know we need to l look atthis node , that merges these three things togetherGrad B: Mm - hmm .Grad C: as for th to decide the response . And since we have a finite number ofconstructions that we can deal with , we could have a finite number of nodes .Grad B: OK . Mm - hmm .Grad C: Say , if we had to y deal with arbitrary language ,it wouldn't make any sense to do that , because there 'd be no way to generate the nodes for every possible sentence .Grad B: Mm - hmm .Grad C: But since wecan only deal with a finite amount of stuff {disfmarker}Grad B: So , basically , the idea is to f to feed the output of that belief - net into another belief - net .GradC: Yeah , so basically take these three things and then put them into another belief - net .Grad B: But , why {disfmarker} why {disfmarker} why only those three? Why not the wholGrad C: Well , I mean , d For the Where - Is question . So we 'd have a node for the Where - Is question .Grad B: Yeah . But we believe that allthe decision nodes are {disfmarker} can be relevant for the Where - Is , and the Where {disfmarker} How - do - I - get - to or the Tell - me - something - about.Grad C: You can come in if you want .Grad B: Yes , it is allowed .Grad C: As long as y you 're not wearing your h your h headphones . Well , I do I {disfmarker}


The Chair (Hon. Anthony Rota (NipissingTimiskaming, Lib.)): I call this meeting to order. Welcome to meeting number 22 of the House of Commons SpecialCommittee on the COVID-19 Pandemic. A reminder to all members that in order to avoid issues with sound, members participating in person should not also beconnected to the video conference. For those joining via video conference, I would like to remind you that, when speaking, you should be on the same channel asthe language you are speaking. As usual, please direct your remarks through the chair. I understand we don't have any ministerial announcements today, so we'llproceed to presenting petitions. I would like to remind members that any petition presented during a meeting of the special committee must have already beencertified by the clerk of petitions. For members participating in person, we ask that they please come and drop the signed certificate off at the table once thepetition is presented. The first petition will be presented by Ms.May.Ms. Elizabeth May (SaanichGulf Islands, GP): Mr. Chair, it's an honour to rise in meetingnumber 22 of the COVID-19 committee, otherwise known as something like the House of Commons. I'm here to present two petitions containing hundreds ofsignatures on the issue of the treatment of Falun Gong practitioners by the People's Republic of China, particularly the practice that's alleged of involuntary organharvesting. The petitioners ask the Government of Canada to condemn this practice and to publicly call for an end to the persecution of Falun Gong in the People'sRepublic of China. The second petition is from residents throughout SaanichGulf Islands concerned about what was, at the time this petition was submitted, afuture problem. It remains an issue, and I present it on behalf of petitioners who wish the Government of Canada not to put public funds into purchasing ormaintaining the Trans Mountain pipeline or towards any expansion of the pipeline.The Chair: Next we'll go to Ms. Kwan.Ms. Jenny Kwan (Vancouver East, NDP):Mr. Chair, I rise to table two petitions. The first petition deals with the COVID-19 situation. The petitioners note the pandemic is having a devastating impact onmany Canadians nationwide, especially those who have low to modest income, small business gig workers, freelancers, artists, film industry workers, non-salariedworkers and individuals on fixed incomes such as seniors and those on disability. It further notes that rent, mortgage and utility payments are due at the end ofeach month, putting countless Canadians at risk of losing their housing. It is paramount there be safe self-isolation opportunities for all individuals in this country.To that end, the petitioners are calling for the government to immediately enact a nationwide rent freeze, eviction freeze, mortgage freeze and utility freeze,enforce mortgage deferrals for homeowners without penalty or interest charges from financial institutions and provide direct assistance in the form of a monthly,universal, direct payment of $2,000 per month for all, with an additional $250 per child immediately. The second petition deals with the Trans Mountain pipelineexpansion. These petitioners join the hundreds of thousands of people who are opposed to the expansion. Trans Mountain, in building the pipeline, brings massiveenvironmental and economic risk with no substantial benefit to British Columbia or to local residents. Approximately 40,000 barrels of oil have already leakedfrom existing Kinder Morgan pipelines, including two major spills in Burnaby since 2007. I might note, Mr. Chair, that just this past weekend there was yetanother spill to the tune of 1,195 barrels here in British Columbia. There is no known scientific technology to clean up the bitumen when there is a spill, and thenumber of tankers would go from eight to 34 per month into the Burrard Inlet. It puts at risk many residential neighbourhoods and the traditional territories of atleast 15 first nations.The Chair: May I interrupt for a moment, Ms. Kwan. I want to remind all members in the House that when presenting a petition, the idea isto be as concise as possible. Ms. Kwan, I'll let you wrap up, please.Ms. Jenny Kwan: Thank you, Mr. Chair. The petitioners are calling for the government toimmediately act to prevent this new oil pipeline from proceeding through British Columbia.The Chair: Thank you. We'll now go to Mr. Genuis.Mr. Garnett Genuis(Sherwood ParkFort Saskatchewan, CPC): Mr. Chair, I have four petitions to present today. The first petition reflects the outrage of my constituents at theever-expanding order in council from the government banning more and more firearms. In particular, the petitioners highlight the failure of the government to acton the issue of illegal guns. The petitioners note that virtually all violent crimes committed in Canada, including the recent shooting in Nova Scotia, involve illegalfirearms in the hands of those who are already not permitted to possess them. The petition has two asks. First of all, it asks that we reverse the order in councilbanning certain firearms, but also that we propose measures that will effectively address the illegal use of firearms by criminals while respecting the rights oflaw-abiding citizens. It also asks that we ensure that substantial changes to firearms laws in future actually be made by Parliament, not by the government actingin an unaccountable manner. The second petition deals with Bill C-8, which is the government's bill around conversion therapy. The petitioners support efforts toban conversion therapy. They express concern about problems in the wording of the definition used in the legislation. They're asking the government to supportamendments to fix the definition to address the issue of conversion therapy and ensure that the definition is correct and doesn't criminalize certain forms ofcounselling that individuals may voluntarily enter into. The third petition is regarding Bill S-204, a bill in the Senate that seeks to make it a criminal offence for aperson to go abroad to receive an organ without consent, dealing especially with the horrific practice of forced organ harvesting and trafficking in China. Thepetitioners are supportive of Bill S-204 and want to see it move forward. The final petition is with respect to Bill C-7. There's been much discussion in this Houseabout the need to do better in terms of long-term care. Rather than working to do better in long-term care, unfortunately we've seen the government removingvital safeguards in the area of euthanasia. I think our focus should be on assisting life rather than removing safeguards that are required in association with theeuthanasia regime. The petitioners are particularly concerned about the government's plan to remove a 10-day reflection period that normally takes place. Thatperiod can already be waived under certain circumstances, but Bill C-7 proposes to remove it entirely as well as reduce the number of witnesses involved. Thepetitioners are quite concerned about what's going on in Bill C-7 and call for it to be stopped or amended.The Chair: Presenting petitions. We'll proceed tostatements by members. We'll start off with Mr. Manly.Mr. Paul Manly (NanaimoLadysmith, GP): Mr. Chair, we are in the midst of a global pandemic and aneconomic shock. Recent events have ripped open the wound of systemic racism in our country. Racialized and marginalized communities have beendisproportionally affected by the pandemic. Thousands of seniors in long-term care facilities have died. It is clear that we need system change. In the past,governments have bailed out banks and corporations because they were too big to fail. It is time to bail out humanity and the planet. No one will be immune fromthe threat of climate change and mass extinction. Both are the result of the exploitation of the natural world in the name of the economy. Humans created theeconomy. We can choose to change it. We must protect our environment or perish. COVID-19 has demonstrated that together we can take courageous action forthe common good. We need to do the same for the climate crisis, because humanity and our planet are too big to fail.The Chair: We'll now go to Mr.Spengemann.Mr. Sven Spengemann (MississaugaLakeshore, Lib.): Mr. Speaker, today marks World Elder Abuse Awareness Day. Underestimated andunder-reported, elder abuse exists across the world. At risk of neglect and assault, many of the most vulnerable older persons reside in our long-term carefacilities. They are the seniors who have built our country and shaped our communities, who have shown us resilience, courage and selflessness, who have madeus stronger, and whose work and teachings continue to inspire us. They are parents and grandparents, brothers and sisters, friends and mentors. We have notbeen there for them in the same way they've been there for us throughout their lives. The Canadian Forces report, alongside the climbing disproportionate deathtoll in our long-term care facilities, has reconfirmed the ugly, indefensible reality of elder abuse and neglect in Canada. In my community, we mourn the deaths of68 seniors from one long-term care facility alone, Camilla Care. We must make the same unwavering commitment to older persons as they have shown to us. Wemust protect and uphold their human rights. We must do better.The Chair: Before proceeding, I just want to bring up to the members in the background that wewant to keep it as simple and as parliamentary as possible in keeping it neutral. We'll now move to Mr. Barrett.Mr. Michael Barrett (LeedsGrenvilleThousandIslands and Rideau Lakes, CPC): During these trying times, the residents of LeedsGrenvilleThousand Islands and Rideau Lakes have risen to the challenge.They've made sacrifices and gone above and beyond to make the lives of their neighbours better and to keep our communities safe. It would be impossible to listeveryone who has emerged as a community hero, but I'd like to highlight a few, like Lily, an eight-year-old from Elgin who raised funds for her local food bank bybuilding and selling squirrel picnic tables, and Louise Boardman from Spencerville who's making masks for long-term care facilities and selling others in support ofthe Breast Cancer Action centre. The Knights of Columbus in Prescott raised funds and are distributing some $27,000 in support of charitable groups throughoutthe region. The Knights of Columbus in Kemptville are working overtime operating the local food bank. Who can forget our top-notch health care workers likeHannah and Mary at the Brockville COVID-19 testing centre? It is the people of LeedsGrenvilleThousand Islands and Rideau Lakes that make it so great. Toeveryone working to make a difference and to all of our essential workers, thank you.The Chair: Next is Mr. Anandasangaree.Mr. Gary Anandasangaree(ScarboroughRouge Park, Lib.): Mr. Chair, the Indian Act enshrined racism into Canadian law in 1876, and, through residential schools, the child welfare system,our legal system and our police, we criminalized and tore apart indigenous peoples. The deaths of Chantel Moore and Rodney Levi and the assault on Chief AllanAdam are recent examples of systemic racism within the RCMP. Sadly, the RCMP leadership has failed to acknowledge this reality and its root causes. These samesystems negatively impact black Canadians. Anti-black racism has resulted in more young black men being jailed, children being streamed or excluded from


Project Manager: Afternoon guys . It's gonna be {gap} .Marketing: Rock and roll .Project Manager: Oh . {vocalsound} {gap} 'Kay .Marketing: So do we need tore-train Mike on how to put his mic on ?Project Manager: We may do .Industrial Designer: Think sMarketing: Okay , can he get it all by himself this time ?ProjectManager: I dunno , I'm feeling like a big boy .Industrial Designer: Mm . ProMarketing: {gap}Industrial Designer: Probably not , 'cause he's 'S been listening to{gap} too much .Marketing: So {disfmarker}Industrial Designer: He's getting retarded . Yay .Marketing: I believe I can fly .User Interface: Alright well we gotsome exciting stuff for you guys .Industrial Designer: Or not .User Interface: Or not . {vocalsound}Industrial Designer: Yeah .Marketing: Just what I needed wassomething exciting . Remember , I'm an old man .Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}Project Manager: 'Kay , ready to go ?User Interface: All ready .ProjectManager: 'Kay so we've got our conceptual design meeting .Industrial Designer: Apparently I'm old as well .Project Manager: Hopefully we've all got excitingideas now .Marketing: Thirty's really young , eh ?User Interface: {vocalsound} We do .Project Manager: Uh k exciting ideas . 'Kay so here's our agenda ouragenda . UmIndustrial Designer: {vocalsound}Project Manager: I'm gonna open . I'm gonna talk for a bit about what we're gonna do . I'm gonna take somenotes . We're gonna all do a presentation , and then hopefully we're gonna make some decisions now . {vocalsound} Yep . {vocalsound} Well when I sayhopefully , we have to . SoUser Interface: Alright .Project Manager: I'm gonna let you guys talk before we make decisions . And does anyone really want to gofirst ?User Interface: I guess I'll go first .Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}Project Manager: You p two ?User Interface: Yeah .Project Manager: What's{disfmarker}User Interface: Component , I think . Yeah .Project Manager: Components design .User Interface: Yep that's it .Industrial Designer: Presented byname . {vocalsound}User Interface: My name is {vocalsound} .Project Manager: {vocalsound} Your name is name ?Marketing: Jose he man is .User Interface:My name is name .Project Manager: Huh hi name .Industrial Designer: My name is Inigo Montoya .Project Manager: {vocalsound}Industrial Designer: You killedmy father .User Interface: {vocalsound} Sorry I did this in a bit of a rush .Industrial Designer: Prepare to die . {vocalsound}Marketing: N name .ProjectManager: Right . {vocalsound}User Interface: So so here's a look inside your really old-looking remote control . Um you've got {vocalsound} a printed{vocalsound} a printed uh circuit board here , and you've got all these buttons which kinda press down little rubber {vocalsound} nubbies into these little holesthat activate {disfmarker}Marketing: {vocalsound}Project Manager: We've all broke a remote control ri um s yeah . {vocalsound}User Interface: Yeah we've allbroken a remote control .Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}Marketing: {vocalsound} I've {disfmarker}User Interface: So you've also got um {disfmarker} you'vegot your chip here , your batteries here , and some sorta electronics . Um {disfmarker}Marketing: I just love you tech guys , huh .Industrial Designer: Yeahthere's a thingy and a dingy and {disfmarker}Project Manager: {vocalsound} You press this and it does thUser Interface: Well {vocalsound}{disfmarker}Marketing: {vocalsound} Yeah y do jabber {vocalsound}User Interface: so you've got {disfmarker} here's here's a transistor , and this amplifiesyour signal ,Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}User Interface: um you've got the L_E_D_ here on the end of the uh uh on the end of the printed circuit board . Umyou've got a couple diodes here for I don't know who and whatnot {vocalsound} .Project Manager: {vocalsound} I dunno who and whatnot .User Interface: So{disfmarker} {vocalsound} exactly .Industrial Designer: Nah .User Interface: So um we've got a {disfmarker} i in this in this uh drawing he uh in this examplehere , this is a eighteen pin um uh chip {vocalsound} I dunno .Marketing: P Yeah .User Interface: Uh it's two double A_ batteries .Industrial Designer:{vocalsound}User Interface: This is pretty standard remote . So here are options for our power sources . You can use a basic battery , which we've alreadydiscussed , um {vocalsound} th our tech department also said we have the option of doing some kind of hand dynamo where maybe you crank it or somethinglike that .Project Manager: {vocalsound} 'Kay . {vocalsound}Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} I wanna change that {vocalsound} .User Interface: I don't knowif that's really {vocalsound}Marketing: {vocalsound} I I gotta I gotta flashlight , and uh {disfmarker}User Interface: I don't know we got some qu crazy guysdown there in that department so {vocalsound} {disfmarker}Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}Project Manager: Okay .User Interface: You shake it .Marketing:yeah but it's interesting 'cause you shake it like this {vocalsound} .User Interface: {vocalsound} Yeah .Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}Marketing: Like this{vocalsound} .User Interface: So that's the next bullet is the um the kinetic provision of energy ,Marketing: And that's on the camera {vocalsound} .IndustrialDesigner: {vocalsound}User Interface: so it's like that flashlight where you have to shake it {vocalsound} .Marketing: Yeah .Project Manager: 'Kay .UserInterface: Uh we've got solar cells , which I don't think is a very good idea because um you could not use your remote at night {vocalsound} which doesn't makea lot of sense .Project Manager: Mm 'kay .User Interface: And finally we've got our cradle o our power cradle idea .Project Manager: Okay so we basically havebattery versus cradle here ?User Interface: M battery versus cradle I think is {disfmarker} yeah .Project Manager: Okay .Industrial Designer: I like the kinetic.Project Manager: So we have battery versus cradle {vocalsound} {disfmarker}Marketing: I g I I figured you would . Yes . {vocalsound} Yeah .User Interface: Itcould be fun {vocalsound} .Project Manager: It's actually a novel thing because you could sell it a as a novelty , just to be actually serious for a minute here ,UserInterface: Yeah .Project Manager: you could {disfmarker}User Interface: Well it is it is more uh {disfmarker} I mean it is more eco-friendly than the than thecradle 'cause you're still using power off the grid with the cradle . So umProject Manager: Mm . Hmm .User Interface: our case design . We have uh choices inmaterials and choices in the general shapes that we can do . Our material choices are a plastic latex um ty or plastic , a rubber latex type thing , uh wood , ortitanium . If we go with titanium we're gonna be uh limited in the amount of shapes we can do because it's tough to shape the titanium , and uh {disfmarker}Yeah persProject Manager: Wood wood would ge would give us a little bit of a marketing niche , wouldn't it .User Interface: I think wood i{vocalsound}Marketing: {vocalsound} It it it {disfmarker}Project Manager: Nah .User Interface: I I can't see anybody wanting to use a wooden remote , it's justanti-technology really , you know .Marketing: Uh .Project Manager: Okay . Hmm .Marketing: Uh uh to me in a marketing sense it's not it's not relative . We canwe can o we can uh accentuate whatever {disfmarker} whatever product you put in there we can find a way to accentuate it .User Interface: Right .ProjectManager: Okay .User Interface: And what we may be able to do , and I think this might be the best option is to combine some {disfmarker} a couple of these .Um my recommendation personally would be to do some kind of a plastic inner shell with a like a rubber outer shell , to make it um to mak uh like a thick plasticinner shell and a t um kind of a {disfmarker} to have that rubber outer shell to make it more durable , and also maybe i I think it feels a little better than theplastic .Project Manager: 'Kay . Do you get a good grip on the rubber ? Yeah okay . {vocalsound}User Interface: Yeah um {disfmarker}Marketing: And if youmake it from that super rubber , when you drop it on the floor it can bounce right back up in your hand .User Interface: Yeah .Marketing: You don't even need tolean down to get it .User Interface: The advantages of working with plastic and rubber is {disfmarker} w we we'll have a lot more um options just in terms ofshapeIndustrial Designer: {vocalsound}Marketing: {vocalsound}User Interface: because you can extrude plastic in basically any shape you want . So um{disfmarker} and then we can cover you know the breakable bits with rubber yeah so um {disfmarker}Project Manager: Okay .User Interface: But basically theseare {vocalsound} curved and double-curved I I believe that the tech department , in their um {vocalsound} in their {vocalsound} message to me , that theywere referring to the number of th curves in the bottom . I have no idea exactly what they're talking about ,Project Manager: Okay .User Interface: but that'swhat they told me , {vocalsound} uncurved , flat , curved , or double-curved .Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}User Interface: I would guess this like this penwould be kinda like a double-curved , where it's curved on m m multiple axes , right ? I think curved means just curved in one axis and double-curved is curved intwo axesProject Manager: Okay .User Interface: or surfaces . I have no idea .Project Manager: I think it might mean something like that sorta shape because adouble curve rather than a {disfmarker}Marketing: Mm-hmm yeah that's {disfmarker} yeah that's what I see .Project Manager: yeah that's what {gap} .UserInterface: Oh okay oh like a wave , okay .Marketing: Yeah that's what I see also .User Interface: Alright that makes sense okay . Um okay , with the interface wehave the following options , we can u we can use push buttons , we can use a scroll wheel with an integrated push button , and L_C_D_ display ,Marketing: Ooh.User Interface: or multiple scrolling wheels . Um so these are all options that the user interface guy can uh {disfmarker} has at his disposal to put together auser interface .Project Manager: Okay .User Interface: For electronics , we have these very technical um {vocalsound} descriptions here . A simple chip , which isthe least expensive , but I have no numbers to give you ,Project Manager: {vocalsound}User Interface: a regular chip , which is {vocalsound} like the mediumporridge {disfmarker} the {vocalsound} medium expense uh {disfmarker}Project Manager: {vocalsound} D do we have actually any concept of what thedifference is between a simple chip and an advanced chip ?User Interface: Yes the difference is , with a simple chip {disfmarker} a simple chip will operate{disfmarker} oh why doesn't this scroll up ? Previous previous , okay . A simple chip is required to operate push buttons .Project Manager: Okay .User Interface:Um {vocalsound} an advanced chip is required to to operate um the L_C_D_ display , and it didn't say specifically , but I I have a hunch that a regular chip isgonna be the scroll wheel and the multiple scroll wheels .Project Manager: Okay .User Interface: So but yeah .Project Manager: Yeah that makes sense . Sopresentation from {disfmarker} I guess design would go best . Next .User Interface: That's the end of my presentation .Project Manager: Technical functions or


Marketing: Just put it on the deskt {gap} desktop .Project Manager: No on the desktop you'll find you should find that there's a project documents link . A wellactually just there .Marketing: Project documents ,Project Manager: Yeah . That's it .Marketing: yeah .Project Manager: If you dump it in there .Marketing: What'syour username ?Project Manager: Your username .Marketing: What's your username and password ? Mm-hmm . Sorry .Project Manager: Okay .Marketing: Okay. There we go .Project Manager: Excellent . Right . Hopefully that's us ready to uh to go . So . Functional design meeting . We'll have to flesh out some of the uhstuff . Um we'll start with the minutes of the last meeting . Not a lot thankfully to say . We introduced ourselves , discussed the possibility of a macro facility ,interac interacting the T_V_ a bit more , um mentioning of bar-code , joystick for user manipulation , um and ergonomics of the remote control as well . Um it'scome to my attention the following . Teletext has become outdated due to the populat popularity of the internet . Remote control should only be used for theT_V_ . Um due for uh time to market and possibly also cost issues . Um also key is the corporate image should stay recognisable , um f uh your colour and sloganof course is down at the bottom there . Um . Now . Just to say quickly uh I would have thought that only being used for a television the macro facility may nownot be required .User Interface: Mm .Project Manager: Um or at l its functionality would have been of limited use . So to the point in my opinion anyway that itmight not be worth pursuing . Um if anybody disagrees we can uh definitely say so . Um and hopefully we'll just crack on and we'll get everything going . Um I'dlike to if possible hear from our Marketing Expert first , to help us gain an idea of where we're going to go .Marketing: 'Kay .Project Manager: So um I'll just loadup your presentation from here if you want .Marketing: Sure . Um , sh would you like to {vocalsound} I'll just do it from here .Project Manager: Yep . Sorry . Uh .Is yours the {disfmarker}Marketing: Um , try second one maybe . Try it , yeah maybe .Project Manager: Oh sorry . Okay , right .Marketing: Yeah . Okay . Oh , Ithought I put in my last name , I guess not , but {gap} .Project Manager: Uh if you {disfmarker} that's all right . If you {disfmarker} do you want me to justcycle through it for you or ?Marketing: Okay . {vocalsound} Oh yeah , that'd be fine , that'd be great .Project Manager: Yeah ?Marketing: Okay . Functionalrequirement by me Ebenezer . {vocalsound}Project Manager: Okay .Marketing: Okay , so um we did some research , we asked one hundred people their opinionson remote controls . We asked some uh open ended questions , just , what are your opinions on the remote control , got a lot of re responses , and we askedsome very specific questions , and we got a lot of good feedback . Please bear in mind this is only a hundred people , so even when the groups are divided intofifteen to twenty five , twenty five to thirty five , there's only maybe ten people {vocalsound} fifteen people in each group .Project Manager: Okay .Marketing:Okay . {vocalsound} So we got {disfmarker} some the bad stuff we got , remotes are often lost . I often lose my remote control , the back of the couch , someplace , and even if it's not lost permanently , it takes me a few minutes to find it . {vocalsound} Most buttons are not used any more , like you said , teletext isoutdated now . I remember trying to load a D_V_D_ player recently , and there were so many buttons , it took me I don't know maybe ten minutes to to gothrough each button , 'cause you have to press the shift button to access the yellow buttons , you know there's just a lot of stuff that no one really uses . And ifthey do , not very often . Takes too long to master the remote control . I've seen some remote controls that are big , they have a lot of buttons , you have to holddown more than one key at one time to do something , they're just not great to use . We just got a lot of bad complaints about remote controls , people do notlike remote controls . Some of the good stuff we got . Between the age of uh fifteen and twenty five , most people would be willing to pay extra for voicerecognition software . Now don't get excited yet , I've got more to say on that . Most people'd be willing to pay for that um most people want remote controls tobe pretty , they want it to be fancy , th they they want it to be different , everybody has a white remote control with black buttons , and a red button and a greenbutton , not everybody wants that . {vocalsound} {vocalsound} Finally , my opinion .Project Manager: Yep .Marketing: The voice recognition thing is cool . Anduh voice recognition , the software , open source software exist already . It's a bit sketchy at some times , uh , you're not gonna get good always accurate results, but for a very fixed number of words , you know you have , how many different words can you have for a remote control , up , down , left , right , channel five ,channel seven , you know , how many , you can't have that many words . For a fixed vocabulary it works quite well . I'm pretty sure people would buy it . Butafter a while people may wanna return it , because {vocalsound} if you have to to say som I mean most people use a remote control for switching to channels ,and they say they do that about ninety eight percent of the time . Using the remote control , ninety eight percent of the time for changing channels , and that'sfor flickering through channels . So if you have to say up , up , up , up , if you have to do that all the time , then people might get a bit fed up with that and theymay return it . {vocalsound} However , {vocalsound} oh , because the voice recognition software exists already , there's no need to spend money on researchand development , but this does mean the need for microphones in the in the remote control , which is an unusual feature in my opinion . But if we do have thevoice recognition thing , there's a lot of stuff that you can uh get rid of . See , you could {disfmarker} there're two options . Either you have voice recognition byitself , which I think is a bit impractical for like night time if you wanna be watching television and you wanna be quiet , or I don't know you have a visitor cominground and the remote's only trained for you , it's a bit impractical to have just voice recognition by itself . So you can have voice recognition and a regular remote. But imagine you got rid of the regular remote part , then you can design the remote to look any way you want it to look , because there are no restrictions onphysical size , or shape , it it could be as fancy as you want it to be , you know , it could be like a lollipop or something like that , something weird like that . Aslong as the voice recognition stuff works , that's that's fine .Project Manager: Okay , yep .Marketing: So we have the three birds , we have the design , that{vocalsound} we have the the fancy bit , right , the voice recognition's fancy , it's cool , it's different , it's radical , so , and then we have an extra bit I don'tremember {vocalsound} so I'm pretty sure people will buy the remote , but is it practical to have a voice recognition system in a remote control , I think is a bigquestion . Um , will people will people be willing to wait for the the period that it'll take to train the remote , 'cause I think it will the remote will uh get better overtime with the same user user , but for the first week or for the first two weeks are you willing to wait , are you willing to have a bad remote control .{vocalsound} And uh what if you have visitors come round , they stay the night , they wanna use the T_V_ , they can't use the remote because they speakdifferently to you . Um , how do you account for regional accents and stuff like that . Uh , will people return the remote control , {vocalsound} I think a lot ofyoung people will buy the remote control , if they have the money , you know , so ,Project Manager: Mm-hmm . If you could uhMarketing: do our audience havethe money , but would they return it after a while because it's not as fast as pressing a button , it's not a practical . So . These are things I think we shouldconsider .Project Manager: sorMarketing: I think it's cool ,Project Manager: if you could speed it up a bit , yeah . If you could uh speed it up a bit please , yeah.Marketing: I'm sorry ? Sure .Project Manager: Sorry .Marketing: I'm about to end , yeah .Project Manager: Cool .Marketing: I think it's cool but there aredefinitely some considerations .Project Manager: Okay . Excellent .Marketing: So , yeah .Project Manager: Right . Um . Hear from the {vocalsound} UserInterface Designer now I think might be an idea .User Interface: Okay .Project Manager: Um , you've got your presentation now ,Industrial Designer:{vocalsound} How did {disfmarker} where did {disfmarker}User Interface: Yeah , it's in the it's in the folderProject Manager: is it on the {disfmarker}IndustrialDesigner: where did you get all your in information {gap} ?User Interface: yeah .Project Manager: is it ? Okay .Marketing: There was uh a website , uh ,IndustrialDesigner: Oh .Project Manager: {vocalsound} Technical functions ?Marketing: right here .Industrial Designer: Ah , okay .User Interface: Mm .Project Manager:No . Yeah . Okay .User Interface: Okay , this is a {vocalsound} brief run through of the um of the technical functions of the remote . As um is uh the the thepresentation is uh already slightly obsolete because I {vocalsound} had in mind something that would uh be i be aimed at controlling multiple devices but uhthere's still stuff of relevance , soProject Manager: Okay .User Interface: press on . I've looked at {vocalsound} looked at a num {vocalsound} uh couple of otheruh remote control models just for an idea of basic design principles . Um and wasn't really satisfied by what I saw I have to say so this is more sort of springboardfor uh how these could be improved on . {vocalsound} Um um basically the job of the device is to send commands to an appliance , in this case the television set. Um to save you getting off your backside . Um and there's two main trends in th in the sort of design practice . On the one hand {disfmarker} and this uh thisparticularly relates to its sort of earliest models where with you know i so so many buttons on it so about the size of the television set . Um giving you everypossible function that the that the device has , the remote control controls . And most of these functions are not going to be used , it creates a rather userunfriendly interface . And on the other hand there's a user focused approach that pares things down to just what {vocalsound} what is most likely to get used .Um {vocalsound} With uh {disfmarker} a and a and of course there is a certain amount of sort of loss of function here obviously , but mostly that's relativelyperipheral functions . And so you go for something that's fairly intuitive to use , and um well f the for the most part for T_V_ remote it's uh tha that would bechannel control and volume . Um and if you {vocalsound} if you if you are wanting to incorporate uh control of a D_V_ {vocalsound} D_V_D_ or uh {vocalsound}V_C_R_ presumably into that then there's a play , pause , stop , rewind , fast-forward , record , so forth . Um . My own view is that we should definitely be goingfor a user focused design . Um but uh the pro {vocalsound} I think the problem with a lot of the sort of user focused designs that are about is that they sort of