The Chair (Hon. Anthony Rota (NipissingTimiskaming, Lib.)): I call this meeting to order. Welcome to the 12th meeting of the House of Commons SpecialCommittee on the COVID-19 Pandemic. This will be the first hybrid meeting of the committee. Some members will be participating via videoconference and somewill be participating in person. This follows the order made by the House on May26,2020. Members who have already participated in a virtual meeting of thespecial committee may actually not notice any change, except for the fact that some members are also participating from the floor of the House. An additionalrubric, that of statements by members, was also added to the proceedings of the committee. In order to ensure that those joining the meeting via videoconference can be seen and heard by those in the chamber, two screens have been set up in the chamber on either side of the Speakers chair. Soundamplification for virtual interventions will be available, and members in the chamber can listen to the floor sound or interpretation using the earpieces on theirdesks. Before speaking, please wait until I recognize you by name. Please also direct your remarks through the Chair. Thank you. For those of you joining viavideo conference, I would like to remind you to leave your mike on mute when you are not speaking. Also, please note that if you want to speak in English, youshould be on the English channel. If you want to speak French, you should be on the French channel. Should you wish to alternate between the two languages,you should change the channel to the language that you are speaking each time you switch languages. Should members participating by videoconference need torequest the floor outside their designated speaking times, they should activate their microphone and state that they have a point of order. Those in the chambercan simply rise in the usual way. Please note that today's proceedings will be televised in the same way as a typical sitting of the House. Next we'll move on toministerial announcements. I understand that there are no ministerial announcements today, so we'll move on to petitions. We'll be presenting petitions for aperiod not exceeding 15 minutes. I would like to remind members that any petition presented during a meeting of the special committee must have already beencertified by the clerk of petitions. For members participating in person, we ask that they please come and drop the signed certificates off at the table once thepetitions are presented. First on our list for presenting petitions is Ms. May, who is joining us virtually.Ms. Elizabeth May (SaanichGulf Islands, GP): Mr. Chair,what an honour to be the first voice coming to you from the screens on either side of the Speaker of the House. I speak to you from SaanichGulf Islands on thetraditional territory of the WSNEC people. Hych'ka Siem. I'm presenting a petition, number 431-00215, and it has been certified. The petitioners call on thisHouse to take note of the fact that Canada is the only country with a universal health care system that does not include the provision of necessary prescriptionmedications. They note that the system across Canada is a patchwork that leaves three million Canadians unprepared and uninsured to be able to purchasenecessary medications. They call on the House assembled to put in place a system of universal national pharmacare, bringing down the cost of drugs through bulkpurchasing. I think I'll call that a summary, Mr. Chair. Thank you very much.The Chair: The next petition will be presented by Mr. Genuis.Mr. Garnett Genuis(Sherwood ParkFort Saskatchewan, CPC): Thank you very much, Mr. Chair. I'm pleased to be presenting two petitions before the committee today. The firstpetition is in support of Bill S-204. This Senate public bill, been put forward by Senator Salma Ataullahjan in the Senate, would make it a criminal offence forsomeone to go abroad to receive an organ for which there has not been consent. It also has a mechanism by which somebody could be deemed inadmissible toCanada for being involved in the horrible practice of forced organ harvesting and trafficking. This bill has been before various Parliaments for over 10 years, andpetitioners are hopeful that this Parliament will be the one that finally takes action to address forced organ harvesting and trafficking. The second petition is putforward by folks who are concerned about Bill C-7, particularly the efforts by the government through Bill C-7 to remove vital safeguards that are currentlyassociated with Canada's euthanasia regime. Petitioners are not happy about the fact that the government is trying to eliminate the 10-day reflection period andremove other safeguards that only four short years ago the government thought were essential for the euthanasia and assisted suicide system that they wereputting in place. The petitioners call on the government to address that, and they are not supportive of these particular efforts to remove vital safeguards fromthat regime. Thank you very much.The Chair: Is anyone else presenting petitions? Seeing none, we'll move on to statements by members. We will now proceedto Statements by Members for a period not exceeding 15minutes. Each statement will be for one minute. The first will be from Mr.Samson. Mr.Samson, you havethe floor.Mr. Darrell Samson (SackvillePrestonChezzetcook, Lib.): Good afternoon, everyone. It's an honour to be presenting an S. O. 31. This spring has been adifficult one for Nova Scotia and the communities of SackvillePrestonChezzetcook. While residents have banded together to tackle the challenges presented byCOVID-19, we have also had to mourn the passing of three remarkable local women: RCMP Constable Heidi Stevenson, well known by many in Cole Harbour andthe surrounding areas; our own Sub-Lieutenant Abbigail Cowbrough, who was based out of 12 Wing Shearwater; and Captain Jenn Casey of the Canadian ForcesSnowbirds. All three women died in the line of duty in separate tragic events while serving our country. These three brave women, who served with honour onland, at sea and in the air, represent the absolute best of us. Heidi, Abbigail and Jenn were inspirational and will not be forgotten. Thank you.The Chair: Next we'llgo to Mr. Bezan.Mr. James Bezan (SelkirkInterlakeEastman, CPC): Thank you, Mr. Chair. Canada needs a prime minister who will create jobs and opportunity, butinstead we have a prime minister who is piling up crippling national debt. Yesterday the PBO predicted the federal deficit this year will hit over $252 billion. That isalmost equivalent to an average year of government spending before the Liberal government. After five years with this debt, Prime Minister, Canada's nationaldebt is set to hit $1 trillion, with almost nothing to show for it. Industries from coast to coast are either closed or are struggling. Canadian workers need anddeserve a prime minister who supports our energy sector and gets our natural resources and agriculture products to market, who supports small business and willmake our tax system encourage job creation and growth, and who will bring advanced manufacturing jobs to Canada and keep the automotive industry growing.Most importantly, we need a Conservative prime minister who will get the government finances under control after the massive debt left by this primeminister.The Chair: Next we'll go to Mr. Anandasangaree.Mr. Gary Anandasangaree (ScarboroughRouge Park, Lib.): Mr. Chair, I speak today with a very heavyheart. Since the COVID-19 outbreak, we've seen a disproportionate number of deaths in long-term care homes. I'm thankful for the Canadian Armed Forces whowere deployed to the Altamont care home in my riding and four other facilities across the GTA. The CAF have brought forward horrifying allegations in theoperation of these homes. They include residents being given expired or improper doses of medication; not being cleaned or changed for a prolonged period oftime; being forcibly fed, causing choking; being bed-bound for weeks; receiving inadequate nutrition, and much more. Mr. Chair, I call upon Premier Ford to placethese five homes under a mandatory management order and to appoint a third party manager to address and rectify these violations. I also call upon the Premierto undertake an independent public inquiry into the tragedy we face in long-term care facilities across Ontario. Finally, Mr. Chair, we need to work with theprovinces and territories to set national standards of care for the most vulnerable in our society. We can and must do better. Thank you, Mr. Chair.The Chair: Wehave a point of order. Go ahead, Ms. May.Ms. Elizabeth May: Thank you, Mr. Chair. I hesitate to interrupt colleagues, but I'm concerned about the petitionpractice, which, as I understand it, is to summarize a petition but not make a speech. I felt one of our colleagues was trespassing on our usual rules.The Chair: Iwill remind honourable members that when a petition is presented, we're expected to give a prcis and make it as concise as possible. Thank you. Mr.Champoux,you have the floor.Mr. Martin Champoux (Drummond, BQ): Mr.Chair, I would like to recognize the resilience of Quebeckers concerned for their jobs or theirbusinesses during the COVID-19 crisis. They need us to plan for after the crisis, and we must do so now. To do so, we need the proper information. We need toknow the status of the public finances. That is why the Bloc Qubcois is demanding that the government present an economic update, and that it do so beforeJune17. This is not about making a spectacle. Everyone knows that the deficit will be huge. We had to provide the people with support and we all agree on that.But we have to know to what extent. We also have to know where we are starting from so that we can plan where we are going. This is about respecting thepublic, because they are the ones who will be paying the bill. In closing, I would like to remind the government that one group is not really contributing to thepublic purse at the moment. I am talking about the tech giants, the GAFAM group, that have never before been used to the extent that they are now, and that arestill not paying a cent in tax in Canada. The Liberals promised to correct this injustice. Now is a great time for them to do so.The Chair: We'll now go to Ms.Sidhu.Ms. Sonia Sidhu (Brampton South, Lib.): Mr. Chair, this week is National Paramedic Services Week. I want to take this opportunity to thank the Peel regionpolice, paramedic and firefighting services for keeping Bramptonians safe. In my riding, organizations have stepped up to help our community. Organizations suchas the Khalsa Aid Society, the Interfaith Council of Peel, the Brampton YMCA, the Prayer Stone Peoples Church, Unity in the Community, Ste. Louise OutreachCentre, Knights Table, the Yogi Divine Society, Vraj Community Service, Regeneration Brampton and many more have made our community stronger during thisdifficult time. I also have to address the report that came out yesterday from our brave Canadian Armed Forces. Like many Canadians, I was shocked by thisreport from the long-term care centres, including one in my riding. The examples of abuse described in the report are unacceptable. Our seniors deserve dignityand respect. We must find a solution. We need to fix this.The Chair: We'll now go to Mrs. Stubbs.Mrs. Shannon Stubbs (Lakeland, CPC): Mr. Chair, Canada's oil


Project Manager: Okay . So welcome back .Marketing: {vocalsound}Project Manager: What do {gap} {disfmarker} do we have to do ? {vocalsound}Marketing:{gap} .Project Manager: So first . I want to say I'm the secretary , so I make the minutes . You find them in your {disfmarker} in the map in the From the group. There's the minutes from the first meeting . You'll find the next minutes also there . Then {vocalsound} I wanna hear from you , what you've done . And afterthat I have some new product requirements . So {disfmarker} And after that we have to make decisions , what we will do . And then we're ready . We have fortyminutes for this meeting . After that we'll have lunch . So first I wanna ask the {disfmarker} {vocalsound} Industrial Designer to tell what he did . So{disfmarker}Industrial Designer: That's my task . Okay . Uh I've {disfmarker} Where have I put it ? My Documents or not ? Hmm . I've save it on my computer ,my presentation .Project Manager: Yeah on your computer , or the {disfmarker}Industrial Designer: But where ?Project Manager: What's the name ?IndustrialDesigner: Uh uh uh {disfmarker}Project Manager: What's the name of it ?Industrial Designer: It was about the working of the remote control .Project Manager:It's the technical function or the functional requirements .Industrial Designer: Nope .Project Manager: {vocalsound}Industrial Designer: Not a {gap} of{disfmarker} Wait . The working design . But I've saved it .Project Manager: Working design .Industrial Designer: But now I don't know where it is . Hmm.Project Manager: Working design . What is this ? Product documents .Industrial Designer: Yeah . And I import this until {disfmarker}Project Manager: On thedesktop . Up . {gap} up . Up . Up .Industrial Designer: One more .Project Manager: Up .Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}Project Manager: Yes . My Documents .Nope .Industrial Designer: What the fuck is this ?Project Manager: Gone . {vocalsound} Well you {disfmarker} Um {disfmarker} Nah . Nah , nah , nah .IndustrialDesigner: {vocalsound}Project Manager: PowerPoint . Working design .Industrial Designer: Yeah that's the empty one .Project Manager: {vocalsound} And{disfmarker}Industrial Designer: I had one .Project Manager: Presentation of working design .Industrial Designer: Uh-huh . Open it . Okay here it is .ProjectManager: Save as {gap} .Marketing: {vocalsound}Project Manager: Uh it's {disfmarker}Marketing: Desktop .Project Manager: Project {gap} .IndustrialDesigner: Project .Marketing: Yeah . Okay . Well .Project Manager: Save .Industrial Designer: Okay .Project Manager: Very good .Industrial Designer: A little laterbut here it is .Marketing: {gap}Project Manager: Okay . So {disfmarker} {vocalsound}Marketing: {vocalsound}Industrial Designer: So okay . It's a little difficultwhat I'm gonna tell you . It's about the working of the remote control . I just had an half an hour j to study itUser Interface: {vocalsound}Industrial Designer:and {vocalsound} I don't get it .Marketing: {vocalsound} Make it .Project Manager: Now have ten minutes to tell it .Industrial Designer: Ten minutes to tell it .Okay . I think it will be a few minutes and {disfmarker}Project Manager: Okay .Industrial Designer: First uh I will tell you something about the findings , what Idiscovered about the remote control . The working bout it {disfmarker} uh of it . Uh then I'll have uh some kind of map , and it's the top of the remote control .With a little bit of science , uh you {disfmarker} I will show that uh in in a few minutes . And then uh what I'll think about it . First , the findings . The remotecontrol is a very difficult uh thing to uh to explain to just all of you wh who haven't seen a remote control uh inside . Uh there's a lot of uh plastic on it ,Marketing:{vocalsound}Industrial Designer: um because its uh not so expensive . And there are uh a lot of uh wires , uh which um connect the components in it , thebattery , and there are um switches and things like that . There's a lot of small uh electronics . So it won't be um uh too expensive to build it . Only twelve Eurofifty I think uh we will make it . Now {gap} {disfmarker} And here I have the top of the remote control . Uh here's some kind of chip . Uh on top of this , thereare uh the numbers . Uh you have all on your remote control . And uh the teletext uh button . And uh here's the battery . And when you push the button , it willuh will be sent to the chip . And the chip will um send it to all kind of sub-components . That's what I said , it's very difficult .Project Manager:{vocalsound}Industrial Designer: And after that it will be sent to the infrared . And that will send it to your television . That's a short h uh how it works . Uh Ithink I can uh make it uh difficult , but we all {vocalsound} we all don't get it . My preferences ? It's uh {disfmarker} it won't be uh {disfmarker} We shouldn'tmake it too big . Uh also for the cost , uh we should only put one battery on it . A long-lasting battery . Uh also for the cost , uh use only plastic . Not othermaterials . Also because of the cost , uh not too much buttons on it . We can also make uh a button uh with a {gap} {disfmarker} menu uh button . And then umthat that you will see it on the T_V_ . And on the T_V_ you can uh switch into the menu .User Interface: Mm-hmm .Industrial Designer: That's {disfmarker} Ithink it's easier . And the bleep signal , y uh you told us . Uh but we can also use it uh a bleep like something , when the battery's empty , then there is a bleep .Then you'll have to change it in a in a week or something . And also the bleep , when {disfmarker} what I told you about uh when you lost it , and you push abutton , and then you hear bleep bleep , and we will find it . This is uh just uh {disfmarker}Project Manager: Oh oh . Two questions .Industrial Designer: Yeah .Yeah .Project Manager: The battery . You say one battery is cheaper . Why ?Industrial Designer: If we w if we use only just one uh small pen-light , then it will becheaper than when we use two .Project Manager: Yeah but when you use two , you can use it two times longer .Industrial Designer: Yeah but then we'll have tomake the um remote control uh long lasting .Project Manager: Okay so it's the size of the remote control .Industrial Designer: {gap} Just {disfmarker} Yeah.Project Manager: Okay and the buttons . When you use it on the television , you've {disfmarker} you need the television , wh which can use it .IndustrialDesigner: Yeah . But uh I think this {disfmarker} our remote control is for the televisions we uh we sell in our company ?Project Manager: Okay .IndustrialDesigner: Or is it also for other company {disfmarker} uh for other televisions ?Project Manager: I think we have to use it also on other televisions though.Industrial Designer: Then this is an option . {vocalsound}Project Manager: So {disfmarker}Industrial Designer: Maybe just a menu button to use it on ourtelevisions . And then we make it easier uh for our televisions . And on the other tele televisions , you can also use it , but then we won't use theProject Manager:Yeah but I don't {disfmarker} I think it {disfmarker} {vocalsound} They are two different things though . We have to choose one . It has to work on o uh alltelevisions .User Interface: Mm .Industrial Designer: Yeah ? Okay . Then I think uh the menu button uh will only work on the newer televisions . And we will uhlook forward and don't make a remote control which for the older televisions .Marketing: Hmm .Project Manager: Okay .Industrial Designer: And I just uh haveone more idea . Uh maybe it's one of your tasks . But {disfmarker} Uh , to have a trendy remote control , we can also um make something like the Nokia ummobile phones . To change covers . So if you have uh a trendy half with all red , uh yellow and something . And then you can put a red cover on it .Marketing:Hmm .Industrial Designer: And also different things .Project Manager: Yeah . Good idea .Industrial Designer: Yes .Marketing: Will this will this add to the cost?Industrial Designer: Uh then it won't be {disfmarker} uh will have just one cover on the uh original one . And then you can buy the covers .Marketing: Yes butyou have to m uh be able to change it . D does it make it more difficult to design ?Industrial Designer: I think it will be a little more difficult , but not too much.Project Manager: Mm-hmm .Marketing: Not much . 'Kay .Industrial Designer: Just like with the Nokia uh mobile phones .Project Manager: Yeah but there aremuch more Nokia telephones than um these ones .Industrial Designer: Just one .Project Manager: {vocalsound}Industrial Designer: Yeah but then we'll have toto just um put five covers on it , and see if it works . If it won't works then we'll get something else . Then we uh won't g uh go further with it .Project Manager:Yeah but are their profits bigger than their cost ?Industrial Designer: Uh a p a {disfmarker} {vocalsound} a cover made in uh in China , it it won't be I guess soexpensive I think .Project Manager: Yeah but there are also design cost . I don't think {disfmarker} When you have a remote control , do you change the cover ?Would you change the cover ?Industrial Designer: Maybe . I wi I won't .Project Manager: No .Industrial Designer: But maybe I think trendy people or like childrenwhere you can paint on it , and uh the the children think , oh this is my remote control , uh I made a picture on it . Uh {disfmarker}Project Manager: N yeah but{disfmarker} I think that too less people would change it for good profit . So {disfmarker}Industrial Designer: Yeah . Okay . And the other people ? What do youthink about it ? {vocalsound}Marketing: Um {disfmarker}User Interface: Yeah it's a good idea . But {disfmarker} If if it {disfmarker} Yeah , I don't {disfmarker}I'm not sure if it will make profit enough to uh {disfmarker}Industrial Designer: Okay .Project Manager: {gap}User Interface: But it's uh yeah it's uh original idea. {vocalsound}Project Manager: Yes it is but I don't think we have to do it .User Interface: No .Industrial Designer: Okay .Marketing: Mm .Industrial Designer:You're the Project Manager . {vocalsound}Project Manager: Okay .Marketing: {vocalsound}Project Manager: {vocalsound}Industrial Designer: Yes . That's it.Project Manager: That's clear . {vocalsound} Okay thank you . So now the User Interface Designer .User Interface: Oh . That's me . Uh {disfmarker} Come on .{gap} . Ah .Marketing: Yeah .User Interface: Yes well uh uh I shall give a short talk about the the technical function design .Industrial Designer:{vocalsound}User Interface: {vocalsound} Um I thought the the the technical function design was uh to uh {disfmarker} for a remote control to to to have someinfluence on the T_V_ set . Uh both audio and vide video uh in a cordless way . No cords attached . And uh well , it all by pushing a button on the remote . Thatwas from my own experience and uh and uh the previous meeting . Uh I find some uh some interesting quotes on the web . Uh well the same idea here . Uhmessage to the television . And uh and and and well basic uh operations like on and off , and uh switching channels , and uh {disfmarker} and maybe uh teletextor something like that . Uh well these are two uh remotes , and that's our uh our dilemma I think . Uh {disfmarker} We just heard from the Industrial Designerhow uh difficult it is . But uh shall we make a basic remote control , uh just uh swapping channels and volume and uh power button and well nothing much more .


Project Manager: Okay uh Agnes , you can help me for the slide when {gap}User Interface: Yep . Sure .Project Manager: okay . Okay , welcome back . I hope uhyou have a fresh head and a fresh time . How t now the meeting actually we gathering here to discuss about the functional design meeting . Okay , and uh we'llissue some information from uh all of you . And it's in the , I think uh , in the sharing folder . And uh I will invite uh the Christine and the Ed and uh Agnes todiscuss about on the various subjects . So can you go to the next slide ? Yeah uh the agenda of the meeting is opening . Then uh I'm going to talk about uh theproject management , what I'm going to do , and uh , of course , I'm doing the project management and secretary both , okay , to take the minutes of themeeting . And there are three presentations . One is uh new project requirements . And the second one about uh decision on remote control functions . And uhfinally we are closing . Uh and the meeting time will be uh forty minutes , so you have to be very quick . And I have come up with the {disfmarker} managementcome with the new proposal , okay , and I have to discuss a few points on this . Uh both says new insights in the aim of your project . Uh the one is uh theteletext becomes uh outmoded , okay because if uh because of the computer systems and the new technology . So we don't need to consider really about theteletext all in our new project design . And the second one is about uh the remote control . Should be used only for the T_V_ . That's what our uh managementsays . And the third point , it's very very important to establish our uh marketing or uh corporate image , okay , with this new project or new product . Okay .{vocalsound} So I will invite uh {disfmarker} Agnes , can you go to the third slide ?User Interface: No , this is the third slide .Project Manager: Okay , {gap} . So, I'll invite uh Christine to discuss about uh the functional design .Industrial Designer: 'Kay , do you wanna open the {disfmarker}User Interface: Sure . Um .You're participant sIndustrial Designer: I'm number two .User Interface: Two ?Project Manager: {vocalsound}Industrial Designer: That's it .User Interface: Doyou want the mouse , or do you want me to {disfmarker}Industrial Designer: I'll do the notes . Yeah , thanks .Project Manager: {vocalsound}Industrial Designer:So um well I I figured uh we should um identify some user requirements , and from my experience , I wanna uh , and from {vocalsound} research I did , uh thethe device has to turn the television on and off the first time you press on the big button , you can't uh can't have like uh waffling on this point , you know .ProjectManager: {vocalsound}Industrial Designer: Really have {disfmarker} It needs to be able y y have to be able to find it . Because one of the biggest problems withremote controls is finding them . So uh , I also , since we have to establish our corporate image on the basis of this new product , thought we better look at thingsthat are popular and um ex go beyond those , and , as I said in the first meeting , um {vocalsound} and then uh we might wanna talk eventually about thematerials that are appropriate to use in uh in the construction , especially in the the uh the outside of the productProject Manager: {vocalsound}IndustrialDesigner: so that it gives the appearance , and it is reliable , and so forth . {vocalsound} I did a little history on uh the the uh remote controls and when theywere invented and so forth , so , I guess this guy Zenith uh created the Flashmatic , which I kinda like the idea , 'cause it made me think of um um maybe theremote control made a big flash when uh you turn the T_V_ on and off , that might be interesting . And um {vocalsound} so it was highly directional flash lightthat uh you could turn the picture on and off , and the sound on and off , and change channels c so I think um those are still requirements we have today , uhfifty years later .Project Manager: {vocalsound}User Interface: Mm-hmm .Industrial Designer: And uh it was really a pioneering innovation , but it was uhsensitive to the sun , so that uh it would get {disfmarker} would start off by the {disfmarker} you'd get {disfmarker} it would easily cause um problems . So , uhI {disfmarker} in addition to uh looking at the um {vocalsound} uh the functional requir so all these devices are examples of where uh mm {disfmarker} they{vocalsound} represent examples that are available today {vocalsound} {vocalsound} which I think the one in the middle is r um really uh something to keep inmind .Marketing: Fantastic . {vocalsound}User Interface: {vocalsound} {vocalsound}Industrial Designer: It'd be easy to find . And um it would uh y you'd{vocalsound} {disfmarker} you could throw it at things if if the T_V_ didn't turn on and off , you could use it for something else . And since I'm not really um{vocalsound} Industrial Designer , I didn't really know what to do with this slide . But um {vocalsound} I just {vocalsound} took some {vocalsound} different uhschematics and I put them into this , and I guess this is what a slide might look like if you were drawing a circuit board . {gap} I don't know why um we wereasked to do this . So , uh {vocalsound} personal preferences , {vocalsound} umUser Interface: {vocalsound}Industrial Designer: I think we could uh I I'm reallythinking outside the box here , and I think that we should consider perhaps having an an an a a size uh {vocalsound} {disfmarker} a remote control that changesin size depending on the user preference .User Interface: {vocalsound}Industrial Designer: So something that's very very flexible and inflatable and then youcould shrink it . I think um it could either be {disfmarker} you could go either one extreme , be very colourful , or you could make it clear , and um kind of blendin with things , so you didn't have to um {vocalsound} uh have a problem with the th the decoration of the {disfmarker} of the user's home . Um I think uh itneeds to be waterproof , because uh sometimes they fall into cupsProject Manager: {vocalsound}Industrial Designer: and , you know , it might be out by theswimming pool or something like that . Um {vocalsound} if you uh mi one of {disfmarker} one of my requirements was about needs t to tell you when it's doneits job or not , because half the time , I keep pushing on the remote control , and I don't know if it's actually understood my message , so I think it should giveyou some sort of an oral cue . And uh , course I never wanna replace the battery . {vocalsound} So ,Marketing: {vocalsound}Industrial Designer: that's{disfmarker} those are my f preferences , and that's my presentation .Project Manager: Yeah , let me uh interrupt you uh if you can add other facility , otherfeature , like uh unbreakable .Industrial Designer: Yes .Project Manager: Okay , because uh especially today , you know , you have the family and the kids ,UserInterface: {vocalsound}Project Manager: okay , and the kids throw it and they they play with their remotes and {gap} .Industrial Designer: Run over it with a car.Project Manager: Yes . Okay , so if you can add the feature , okay , for your uh fabric whatever in your outline design okay , with unbreakable , okay , I thinkthat will give a lot of advantage for our product , if I'm not wrong . Maybe you can uh add it in that .Industrial Designer: Good idea . Good idea , I'll I'll uh um{disfmarker} Yes , very good .Project Manager: Okay , uh thank you Christine , and uh uh any questions or uh clarifications , or any discussion on the functionaldesign ?User Interface: Do you have any preconceived ideas in terms of materials ? 'Cause , for example , in the unbreakable thing , doing something plasticwould be harder ,Industrial Designer: Hmm .User Interface: whereas having something like , I dunno , steel or titanium isn't really economically viable .{vocalsound}Industrial Designer: Titanium . Titanium would be {vocalsound} be heavy , too ,Marketing: Titanium . {vocalsound}Industrial Designer: wouldn't it?User Interface: Yeah .Industrial Designer: No , I haven't really um {disfmarker} I wanted feedback , I think we need to rate {disfmarker} rank these , but we'llsee what your uh personal preferences are and your thoughts .User Interface: Yeah . Sure , yeah . No , I just wondering whether {disfmarker} that you had anysort of {disfmarker}Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} I like titanium . It's light .User Interface: Yeah .Industrial Designer: Uh {vocalsound} yeahMarketing:Expensive .User Interface: {vocalsound} The marketing comes out . {vocalsound}Industrial Designer: but uh who who said {disfmarker} who said we were,Marketing: {vocalsound}Project Manager: Yes .Industrial Designer: you know , nobody told me how mu what our financial objective is , so um{disfmarker}Project Manager: {vocalsound} Yeah so {disfmarker}Industrial Designer: It'd be hard to inflate something ou made out of titanium though{vocalsound} .Project Manager: Yeah the the {disfmarker} I'm sorry because uh the last meeting we supposed to discuss about the financial thing .UserInterface: {vocalsound}Marketing: {vocalsound}Project Manager: Uh let me go quickly , maybe if I can go back {vocalsound} . I know the project plan and thebudget . So I can close this , {gap} not sure . Was in uh {disfmarker} S This . So let me see where is this file .User Interface: That's Christine's .Project Manager:This is Christine . {vocalsound}User Interface: And that's mine , I think .Project Manager: That's yours , okay . Saving .Marketing: {vocalsound} {gap}UserInterface: In modified .Marketing: I don't know ,Project Manager: Okay , uhMarketing: I think verbally we can {disfmarker} we can pretty much sell .ProjectManager: I will {disfmarker} I will send you a mail , okay ? The project may be the the project aim , okay . At the end of the day , the company uh wants to makeat least uh the fifty million Euro . Okay , and uh of course the price will be very reasonable on the the sales side . Okay , that maybe Eddie will talk to you aboutuh how much uh the price and uh what's uh {disfmarker} how much its cost for the manufacturing and how much it's going to be {disfmarker} we sell in themarket . Okay . Then uh you can come back with your feedback . And I I have one {disfmarker} maybe the suggestion or opinion . This remote control , okay , itcan be for like universal , to use for any T_V_ . Okay , and it will be slim , okay , and uh {disfmarker}Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Not fat ?Project Manager:Not fat .Industrial Designer: Not fat , huh .Project Manager: Okay .Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Might be hard to find , though .Project Manager: Yep . Butlet's try it , okay , with the different uh {disfmarker} the designs , okay , the functional designs .Marketing: Hmm .Industrial Designer: Oh , okay .ProjectManager: Okay ? So any other questions ?Marketing: Uh from her side , I don't think uh there's too many more questions .Project Manager: Okay . Thank youChristine for uh time being ,Marketing: If you can come to the {disfmarker}Project Manager: so then uh Ed , so can you tell about {disfmarker}Marketing: Okay ,from the marketing {disfmarker} yeah , from the marketing side , just to to give an idea what the management is looking for , I was looking for a a remotecontrol to have a sUser Interface: S 'scuse me for one sec .Marketing: I have a sales price of twenty-five Euro , with a production price of uh twelve and a half


Lynne Neagle AM: Okay. Good morning, everyone. Welcome to the Children, Young People and Education Committee. We've received apologies for absence fromSuzy Davies and Jack Sargeant and I'm very pleased to welcome Jayne Bryant back, who is substituting for Jack today. Are there any declarations of interestfrom Members, please? No. Okay, thank you. Item 2, then, this morning, is our sixth scrutiny session on the Children (Abolition of Defence of ReasonablePunishment) (Wales) Bill. I'm very pleased to welcome our witnesses this morning: Sally Jenkins, who is chair of All Wales Heads of Children’s Services and ishere representing the Association of Directors of Social Services; Alastair Birch, who is senior system leader for equalities and safeguarding at PembrokeshireCounty Council, who is here representing the Association of Directors of Education Wales; and Councillor Huw David, who is the Welsh Local GovernmentAssociation spokesperson for health and social care and leader of Bridgend County Borough Council. So, thank you all for attending this morning. We're verypleased to have you here. We've got a lot of ground to cover, so, if you're happy, we'll go straight into questions and I'll start just by asking about your generalsupport for the Bill, which is outlined in the evidence. Can you just explain why you think the current law is ineffective or unclear?Alastair Birch: Bore da—bore da,bawb. So, I'm Alastair Birch. The statement, really, from ADEW is that the rights of the child should be educated and achieved, really, under the United NationsConvention on the Rights of the Child. The current legislation has been criticised, obviously, by the UN concerning the defence of reasonable punishment stillbeing within our current legislation. So, we will always—ADEW will always—advocate that the rights of the child be upheld, so that is really the fundamentalaspect in terms of the statement from ADEW, and the position of ADEW is that the rights of the child are fundamental in this process. And there are certainarticles—. I know that the Rights of Children and Young Persons (Wales) Measure 2011 made sure that article 3 and article 4, article 12 and article 37 were afocus in terms of making sure that the best interests of the child were put first, that children expressing their views and opinions was a priority. And we know, forsafeguarding purposes, that the express opinions of the child and the voice of the child are a fundamental aspect of any safe environment, whether it be a schoolor college. So, that is—the position is really following that legal position under the Rights of Children and Young Persons (Wales) Measure.Lynne Neagle AM: Okay,thank you. Nothing to add at this stage, no?Sally Jenkins: I'll just add, on behalf of ADSS and on behalf of children's services and social services more widely, forus, this is not a change in our position, this is not new; this is a position that we, on behalf of the leaders of social services across Wales, have taken over manyyears, going back 20, 25 years. I think what we would say is that we really welcome this Bill and we welcome the proposed change for the clarity it wouldbring—the clarity that it would bring for children, for parents and for professionals. I think what we would recognise is that this is a very little-used piece oflegislation, so it's rare, it's not as if this is something that is going to cast great change across the scene for children and families in Wales, but what it will do isrepresent a change in the reality of how we care and nurture our children. I would echo absolutely what Alastair has said in terms of the rights of the child, butequally, in terms of all of our policies in Wales in terms of promoting well-being for children, this has to be key. So, for us, this is about a natural progression ofchange in how we care for our children in Wales. For children's services at the very sharp end of this world, for us, it brings a true clarity. This continues with anambiguity in how we treat our children and how we care for our children, and the shift for us brings that very much needed clarity.Lynne Neagle AM: Okay, thankyou. The committee has already heard different views about whether there's clear evidence that physical punishment is harmful to children. What evidence doesthe work of social services provide about whether physical punishment is actually harmful?Sally Jenkins: Obviously, what you'll all be aware of is that, as part ofthe consultation for this Bill, the Public Policy Institute did a further piece of research to look at the impact of physical punishment on children. A number of thingsthat we know—we know from across the world that the evidence is that introducing legislation or changing legislation in this way improves children's positionswithin their families. What we know is that children themselves, as Alastair has already referred to, really find physical punishment demeaning and harmful, andfor children it is an emotionally damaging experience. Now, there may be disagreement about that, there will be different views on that, but that's the voice of thechild in this debate. The voice of the child is very clear that physical punishment is for them harmful. I think what we would also say is that, in the world that wework in, it's part of a continuum, and, whilst this is an element of how children are cared for, what we see is a continuum where an acceptance of how we treatchildren in a particular way perpetuates throughout our work. By changing this, it helps that shift to that absolute recognition that our children must be cared forin a way that is physically safe in all dimensions for them.Lynne Neagle AM: Okay, thank you. We've had evidence from the equal protection network that thereasonable punishment defence undermines child protection and fails to protect children because it permits an arbitrary level of violence, which invades children'sphysical integrity, making it a potential pathway to more serious physical or sexual abuse, and you did refer to that just now. Is there anything you want to addon that?Sally Jenkins: I would echo that. I think there is something in this that is about our culture, about how we see our children. It is about how we see oursmallest and most vulnerable people, and if it is acceptable it opens the door to those other, more extreme versions of violence, which then complicates the issuefor us. This is about clarity, and, whilst there is an argument that this is a small episode for a child, it's not a small episode for a child, it is a major episode for achild, and I think absolutely, as you said, the potential for it then to lead on, and over gradation and time to increase the risk for children, is clearly there.LynneNeagle AM: Okay, thank you. The final question from me: your written evidence emphasises the need for greater clarity around the definition of what constitutescorporal punishment, but that contrasts with what we've been told by the children's commissioner and the equal protection network, who've emphasised theimportance of simplicity in the Bill. How do you respond to that view, and is what you're calling for essential to be on the face of the Bill?Sally Jenkins: It's notessential for it to be on the face of the Bill. What we would like to see is discussion within the implementation phase for that nuancing. Absolutely agree in termsof simplicity—I think that is really important—and I've already mentioned clarity. What we don't want to do is further confuse the position. We know that thelegislation in different countries has done that, and there are ways that you can do it, but what we would welcome is an opportunity during the implementationphase for discussion.Lynne Neagle AM: Okay. Thank you.Huw David: And, as a principle, obviously we would welcome full involvement, and we know there's thecommitment from Welsh Government to full involvement in the implementation, because, as with every piece of legislation, implementation is the most importantpart, and we would want to ensure there is that commitment to a major awareness-raising campaign, and there is that from Welsh Government, because we needto take families, carers and parents with us on this. Also we need to ensure that there is that support available to parents and carers that do sometimes strugglewith parenting, and that needs to be a universal offer across Wales. If we're to progress with this, that has to be an option that is offered to every parent inWales.Lynne Neagle AM: Okay. Thank you.Sally Jenkins: Local authorities have already been very heavily involved in terms of looking at this Bill and exploringwhat the issues are and the discussions and looking at what the implications from a local authority perspective will be, as Huw describes, both in terms of theawareness raising, early support and intervention and prevention services for families against the backdrop of the current issues that we have in localgovernment, but also awareness raising—because absolutely it is key that families come with us on this journey. This is not an imposition. This is embracing aculture and a value system for our children.Lynne Neagle AM: Okay, thank you. I've got some questions now from Dawn Bowden on the implementation of theBill.Dawn Bowden AM: Thank you, Chair. So, you've pre-empted me, Huw.Huw David: Right. Sorry. I've got good eyesight; I can't see—. [Laughter.]DawnBowden AM: You've already said, obviously, that you're looking towards working with Welsh Government in terms of its implementation. What's been your role sofar in terms of the implementation of the Bill—local authorities generally, now? Have you had a role? Has Welsh Government been involving you in discussionsaround the introduction of the Bill so far?Huw David: Yes. So, obviously we were consulted—a key consultee—but also our officials have worked very closely withWelsh Government officials to make sure this is implemented successfully, if it is progressed.Sally Jenkins: Our involvement with this, from a social servicesperspective, goes back over two years, directly in working towards this point, never mind the history in terms of work towards this area. But, very directly inrelation to this Bill, we were first involved at least two years ago, to recollect, and that was in a series of workshops with other agencies, for example Children andFamily Court Advisory and Support Service Cymru and the police, and looking in real depth at what the implications would be for us as agencies to look at whatthe likely trajectory would be in terms of our pathways for referral into our services and what that might mean for us. And then particularly, for example, withCAFCASS Cymru in relation to private law, what the fallout might be, and then what, if anything—and that's the discussion that we need to have—that couldmean for children's services in particular, given the pressures that we're already under. So, we've been in constant, I suppose, involvement in terms of the Billalready, as part of the consultation, in terms of the focus groups and in terms of direct work with Welsh Government officials to take this forward. And we areabsolutely committed to continuing with that work.Dawn Bowden AM: Okay. You touched there on the pressures that you're already under, which we fullyappreciate, but you also mentioned in answers to Lynne Neagle earlier on that you welcomed the Bill in terms of its clarity. So, are you confident that the Bill canbe implemented without any major impact on your capacity to deal with it?Sally Jenkins: We've done—. A number of local authorities—my own included, Newport


PhD B: OK . We 're on .Grad E: Hello ?Professor A: OK , so uh {vocalsound} had some interesting mail from uh Dan Ellis . Actually , I think he {disfmarker} he{vocalsound} redirected it to everybody also so uh {vocalsound} the PDA mikes uh have a big bunch of energy at {disfmarker} at uh five hertz uh where thiscame up was that uh I was showing off these wave forms that we have on the web and {disfmarker} and uh {vocalsound} I just sort of hadn't noticed this , butthat {disfmarker} the major , major component in the wave {disfmarker} in the second wave form in that pair of wave forms is actually the air conditioner .GradC: Huh .Professor A: So . So . I {vocalsound} {vocalsound} I have to be more careful about using that as a {disfmarker} as a {disfmarker} {vocalsound} as agood illustration , uh , in fact it 's not , of uh {disfmarker} {vocalsound} of the effects of room reverberation . It is isn't a bad illustration of the effects of uh roomnoise . {vocalsound} on {disfmarker} on uh some mikes uh but So . And then we had this other discussion about um {vocalsound} whether this affects thedynamic range , cuz I know , although we start off with thirty two bits , you end up with uh sixteen bits and {vocalsound} you know , are we getting hurt there ?But uh Dan is pretty confident that we 're not , that {disfmarker} that quantization error is not {disfmarker} is still not a significant {vocalsound} factor there .So . So there was a question of whether we should change things here , whether we should {vocalsound} change a capacitor on the input box for that or whetherwe shouldPhD B: Yeah , he suggested a smaller capacitor , right ?Professor A: Right . But then I had some other uh thing discussions with himPhD B: For the PDProfessor A: and the feeling was {vocalsound} once we start monk monkeying with that , uh , many other problems could ha happen . And additionally we{disfmarker} we already have a lot of data that 's been collected with that , so .PhD B: Yeah .Professor A: A simple thing to do is he {disfmarker} he{disfmarker} he has a {disfmarker} I forget if it {disfmarker} this was in that mail or in the following mail , but he has a {disfmarker} a simple filter , a digitalfilter that he suggested . We just run over the data before we deal with it .PhD B: Mm - hmm .Professor A: um The other thing that I don't know the answer to ,but when people are using Feacalc here , uh whether they 're using it with the high - pass filter option or not . And I don't know if anybody knows .Grad E: Um .{vocalsound} I could go check .Professor A: But . Yeah . So when we 're doing all these things using our software there is {disfmarker} um if it 's {disfmarker} ifit 's based on the RASTA - PLP program , {vocalsound} which does both PLP and RASTA - PLP {vocalsound} um then {vocalsound} uh there is an option therewhich then comes up through to Feacalc which {vocalsound} um allows you to do high - pass filtering and in general we like to do that , because of things likethis and {vocalsound} it 's {disfmarker} it 's pretty {disfmarker} it 's not a very severe filter . Doesn't affect speech frequencies , even pretty low speechfrequencies , at all , but it 'sPhD B: What 's the {pause} cut - off frequency it used ?Professor A: Oh . I don't know I wrote this a while agoPhD B: Is it like twenty?Professor A: Something like that .PhD B: Yeah .Professor A: Yeah . I mean I think there 's some effect above twenty but it 's {disfmarker} it 's {disfmarker} it 's{disfmarker} it 's mild . So , I mean it probably {disfmarker} there 's probably some effect up to a hundred hertz or something but it 's {disfmarker} it 's prettymild . I don't know in the {disfmarker} in the STRUT implementation of the stuff is there a high - pass filter or a pre pre - emphasis or something in the{disfmarker}PhD F: Uh . I think we use a pre - emphasis . Yeah . Yeah .Professor A: So . We {disfmarker} we {disfmarker} we want to go and check that in i foranything that we 're going to use the P D A mike for . {vocalsound} uh He says that there 's a pretty good roll off in the PZM mikes so {vocalsound} we don'tneed {disfmarker} need to worry about them one way or the other but if we do make use of the cheap mikes , {vocalsound} uh we want to be sure to do that{disfmarker} that filtering before we {vocalsound} process it . And then again if it 's uh depending on the option that the {disfmarker} our {disfmarker} oursoftware is being run with , it 's {disfmarker} it 's quite possible that 's already being taken care of . uh But I also have to pick a different picture to show theeffects of reverberation . uhPhD B: Did somebody notice it during your talk ?Professor A: uh No .PhD B: Huh .Professor A: Well . uh Well . If they made outputthey were {disfmarker} they were , you know {disfmarker} they were nice .PhD B: Didn't say anything ?Professor A: But . {vocalsound} I mean the thing is itwas since I was talking about reverberation and showing this thing that was noise , it wasn't a good match , but it certainly was still uh an indication of the factthat you get noise with distant mikes . uh It 's just not a great example because not only isn't it reverberation but it 's a noise that we definitely know what to do.PhD B: Mm - hmm .Professor A: So , I mean , it doesn't take deep {disfmarker} {vocalsound} a new {disfmarker} bold new methods to get rid of uh five hertznoise , so .PhD B: Yeah .Professor A: um {vocalsound} uh But . So it was {disfmarker} it was a bad example in that way , but it 's {disfmarker} it still is{disfmarker} it 's the real thing that we did get out of the microphone at distance , so it wasn't {vocalsound} it w it w wasn't wrong it was inappropriate . So .{vocalsound} So uh , but uh , Yeah , someone noticed it later pointed it out to me , and I went " oh , man . Why didn't I notice that ? "PhD B: Hmm .Professor A:um . So . {vocalsound} um So I think we 'll change our {disfmarker} our picture on the web , when we 're @ @ . One of the things I was {disfmarker} I mean , Iwas trying to think about what {disfmarker} what 's the best {vocalsound} way to show the difference an and I had a couple of thoughts one was , {vocalsound}that spectrogram that we show {vocalsound} is O K , but the thing is {vocalsound} the eyes uh and the {vocalsound} the brain behind them are so good atpicking out patterns {vocalsound} from {disfmarker} from noise {vocalsound} that in first glance you look at them it doesn't seem like it 's that bad uh becausethere 's many features that are still preserved . So one thing to do might be to just take a piece of the spec uh of the spectrogram where you can see{vocalsound} that something looks different , an and blow it up , and have that be the part that 's {disfmarker} just to show as well . You know .PhD B: Mm -hmm . Mm - hmm .Professor A: i i Some things are going to be hurt . um {vocalsound} Another , I was thinking of was um {vocalsound} taking some spectralslices , like uh {disfmarker} like we look at with the recognizer , and look at the spectrum or cepstrum that you get out of there , and the {disfmarker} the uh ,um , {vocalsound} the reverberation uh does make it {disfmarker} does change that . And so maybe {disfmarker} maybe that would be more obvious .PhD B:Hmm .Grad C: Spectral slices ?Professor A: Yeah .Grad C: W w what d what do you mean ?Professor A: Well , I mean um all the recognizers look at frames . Sothey {disfmarker} they look at {disfmarker}PhD B: So like one instant in time .Professor A: Yeah , look at a {disfmarker}Grad C: OK .Professor A: So it 's , yeah, at one point in time or uh twenty {disfmarker} over twenty milliseconds or something , {vocalsound} you have a spectrum or a cepstrum .Grad C: OK.Professor A: That 's what I meant by a slice .Grad C: I see .Professor A: Yeah . And {vocalsound} if you look at {disfmarker}PhD B: You could just {disfmarker}you could just throw up , you know , uh {vocalsound} the uh {disfmarker} some MFCC feature vectors . You know , one from one , one from the other , and then, you know , you can look and see how different the numbers are .Professor A: Right . Well , that 's why I saying either {vocalsound} {vocalsound} Well , eitherspectrum or cepstrumPhD B: I 'm just kidding .Professor A: but {disfmarker} {vocalsound} but I think the thing is you wanna {disfmarker} PhD B: I don't meana graph . I mean the actual numbers .Professor A: Oh . I see . Oh . That would be lovely , yeah .PhD B: Yeah . " See how different these {vocalsound} sequencesof numbers are ? "Professor A: Yeah . Or I could just add them up and get a different total .PhD B: Yeah . It 's not the square .Professor A: OK . Uh . What else{disfmarker} wh what 's {disfmarker} what else is going on ?PhD F: Uh , yeah . Yeah , at first I had a remark why {disfmarker} I am wondering why the PDA isalways so far . I mean we are always meeting at the {vocalsound} beginning of the table and {vocalsound} the PDA 's there .Professor A: Uh . I guess cuz wehaven't wanted to move it . We {disfmarker} we could {disfmarker} {vocalsound} we could move us ,PhD F: Yeah ?Professor A: and .PhD F: OK .Grad E: That 'sright .PhD F: Well , anyway . Um . Yeah , so . Uh . Since the last meeting we 've {disfmarker} we 've tried to put together um {vocalsound} the clean low - passum downsampling , upsampling , I mean , Uh the new filter that 's replacing the LDA filters , and also {vocalsound} the um delay issue so that {disfmarker} Weconsidered th the {disfmarker} the delay issue on the {disfmarker} for the on - line normalization . Mmm . So we 've put together all this and then we haveresults that are not um {vocalsound} {vocalsound} very impressive . Well , there is no {vocalsound} real improvement .Professor A: But it 's not wer worse andit 's better {disfmarker} better latency ,PhD F: It 's not {disfmarker}Professor A: right ?PhD F: Yeah . Yeah . Well . Actually it 's better . It seems better when welook at the mismatched case but {vocalsound} I think we are like {disfmarker} like cheated here by the {disfmarker} th this problem that {vocalsound} uh insome cases when you modify slight {disfmarker} slightly modify the initial condition you end up {vocalsound} completely somewhere air somewhere else in the{disfmarker} in the space , {vocalsound} the parameters .Professor A: Yeah .PhD F: So . Well . The other system are for instance . For Italian is at seventy -eight {vocalsound} percent recognition rate on the mismatch , and this new system has eighty - nine . But I don't think it indicates something , really . I don't{disfmarker} I don't think it means that the new system is more robustProfessor A: Uh - huh .PhD F: or {disfmarker} It 's simply the fact that {disfmarker} Well.Professor A: Well , the test would be if you then tried it on one of the other test sets , if {disfmarker} if it was {disfmarker}PhD F: YProfessor A: Right . So thiswas Italian , right ?PhD F: Yeah . Yeah .Professor A: So then if you take your changesPhD F: It 's similar for other test setsProfessor A: and then {disfmarker}PhDF: but I mean {vocalsound} from this se seventy - eight um percent recognition rate system , {vocalsound} I could change the transition probabilities for the{disfmarker} the first HMM and {pause} it will end up to eighty - nine also .Professor A: Uh - huh .PhD F: By using point five instead of point six , point four{vocalsound} as in the {disfmarker} the HTK script .Professor A: Uh - huh . Yeah .PhD F: So . Well . That 's {disfmarker}PhD B: Yeah . Yeah I looked at um


Industrial Designer: 'S to do now is to decide how to fulfil what your stuff is ,Marketing: Yeah .Industrial Designer: so in that sense {disfmarker}Project Manager:Okay .Marketing: Yeah , sure .Industrial Designer: so it does kind of make sense , yeah .Project Manager: Okay , well {disfmarker}Marketing: It kinda does makesense , doesn't it , because when we get into the end of meeting we're kind of {vocalsound} talking about action and design as opposed to background .IndustrialDesigner: Yep .Project Manager: Okay .Marketing: Everything I have is kinda background .Project Manager: Okay we all ready to go ?Industrial Designer: Yep.Project Manager: Well how um on the {disfmarker} in this meeting then if we um {disfmarker} I'll just just recap on the minutes from the last meeting . And weuh decided onIndustrial Designer: Yep .Project Manager: decided on our our target group being fifteen to thirty five ,Marketing: {vocalsound} Mm-hmm .ProjectManager: and we decided that it was gonna be non-rechargeable battery-powered , that we're gonna group our audio-visual and other functions into into thosecategories , um {vocalsound} . And I told you guys about the three new requirements about ignoring teletext , ignoring everything except the T_V_ , and tryingto incorporate the the uh corporate colour and slogan . Um so that was the last meeting .Industrial Designer: Mm-hmm .Project Manager: Is there anything{disfmarker} have I forgotten anything ?Industrial Designer: No .Project Manager: Is that everything ?Marketing: Uh that sounds {gap} .Project Manager: Okay .Um so if we have the three presentations , and then if you have anything to kind of {disfmarker} that you know you're gonna want to discuss , maybe just makea note of it , and we'll have all the discussion at the end . That might be a better idea this time .Marketing: Sure .Project Manager: And so if we start off uh withAndrew and then Craig and then David ,Marketing: Okay .Project Manager: if that's alright .Marketing: Sure .Industrial Designer: Yep .Project Manager: Um andthen after that we'll have to make some decisions about stuff , right {vocalsound} .Marketing: Yeah , cool .Project Manager: So if you wanna take this.Marketing: Why don't I get that {vocalsound} ? Hmm .Project Manager: {vocalsound} Screwed in quite tightly . Uh what did {disfmarker} uh how did we leave itwith speech recognition now ? We {disfmarker} did we say we were gonna try {disfmarker} maybe incorporate it but we hadn't made a definite decision on that?Industrial Designer: Mm-hmm .Project Manager: Right . Oh I should also point out that um the you know the kind of final objective of this meeting is to reach adecision on the concepts of the product .Marketing: Okay . {vocalsound}Project Manager: So um {vocalsound} that's kind of the end result hopefully .Marketing:Okay . Um alright so c is it function F_ eight ?Project Manager: {vocalsound} Uh-huh . Hopefully appear in a wee second .Marketing: Hmm . Come on . I think it'sworking .Project Manager: Up there we go .Marketing: Okay great s so let me just start this . {vocalsound} Okay great . So um {vocalsound} uh s move on .Uh-huh {disfmarker} oh where'd it all go ?Project Manager: {vocalsound} Oh no .Marketing: It's not good . Okay lemme just see where I can find it . This looksmore like it . I think I just opened up the template .Project Manager: Oh right .Marketing: Sorry about that . Okay alright so let's have a look here .ProjectManager: Here we go .Marketing: Okay so this was the method that um I've taken . Uh basically what I wanna do here , before we get into it uh too far , is I wantto show you all the background information I have that I think we need to acknowledge if we want this to be successful .Project Manager: Okay .Marketing: Anduh and then sorta g go through some of the way that I've dealt with that information , and then sort of bring us all together into it to see {disfmarker} sorta seehow this fits in with the overall vision . Um so I've tried to take a whole lot of market research and summarise it for us , and then ide identify uh trends that areare sort of in sync and are important to our our uh p project plan that we have so far , and then uh initiate a kind of discussion on design options so that it sortahelps us to to narrow in on on aspects that will inform other uh other elements of the of the project . Does that make sense , tha that sort of strategy ?IndustrialDesigner: Yep .Project Manager: Mm-hmm .Marketing: I thought that that will impact on the rest of what we do , so that's why I suggested we get in this .ProjectManager: Aye a fair point definitely .Marketing: Okay so out of um different uh figures and ratings ob uh of people in general , um consumers in general , thenumber one thing that was found was that uh the br t television remote control , a fancy look and feel , okay , and not , it specified , not a functional look or orfeel , uh b f f fancy .Project Manager: Okay .Marketing: Um however , this is where we kinda have to be very , I think , creative about it . Number two was that itbe innovative . Okay so that tells me that we have to find a way to be innovative without a adding just unnecessary um sort of functional bits to it . Uh and thirdpriority uh for ease of use , so again that kind of gives us a general picture of how it has to be , um {vocalsound} quite user friendly while still having technology .So it {disfmarker} I'll just say right away as a bit of a foreshadowing into how we proceed with this in terms of m marketing , is that I think um {vocalsound}what we should think about is how the um {vocalsound} about how the innovation uh contributes to the look and feel , and not so much to the functionality of it.Project Manager: {vocalsound} Aye right .Marketing: For example like when you pick it up and push it like it all lights up or something , you know what I mean ,like , or it's got something else to it that just seems innovativeProject Manager: Uh-huh .Marketing: because obviously the thing that {disfmarker} the messagehere is ease of use . So how do you make innovation make something more {vocalsound} more easy to use ? Well that's I guess where we're gonna go with this.Project Manager: Okay .Marketing: Okay then there's the other aspect of the back the the market um research I have here is on fashion style , okay , which aswe've agreed is a priority . Uh top European fashion trend um {vocalsound} that I read about says there's this emerging theme of fruit and vegetables , okay,Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}Project Manager: {vocalsound}Marketing: especially in clothes and furniture . And when I first saw that I thought hmm , welldo we want to actually try and think about this trend and how we add something to it , or we get right into it , or we completely steer away from it ,ProjectManager: Okay okay .Marketing: do you know what I mean ? So my my feeling is that we w do want to observe this trend , but we want to think also about thefact that it sort of has to fit in with something which is not specifically electronics . Um 'cause I think what we're in what we're in is partly sort of home decor ,partly something like a computer , um {vocalsound} so I think we might wanna be careful about how you know how quickly we create like a remote control in theshape of an apple or something ,Project Manager: {vocalsound}Marketing: I think that would be pushing it .Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}Marketing: Andthen in terms of m material trends are for things to be soft and spongy and sort of , you might say ergonomic or or friendly to handle , which is {disfmarker}which also in indicated that last year this was this was not the case . So um probably a lot of the competition on the market will be still in last year's mode , so ifwe try and really capitalise on that , I think that'll be in our favour . Um {disfmarker} So these this is the summary of everything . Um style is number one uhthing in the in the market of who we're selling to . Uh innovative design technology's also a must in that it's seen {disfmarker} it'd be seen to be uh cutting edge ,uh but ease of use t has to be insured throughout . That was like the number three thing . And then at the end there are vibrant natural colours um that's the wayI interpreted it anyway , softness in materials , shape , and function , and so I've written at written at the bottom to give us sort of a context of discussion , MaciPods ,Project Manager: Mm-hmm .Marketing: something which is , I'd have to say very high-tech , ten gigabytes , whatever , but when you hold it in your handthere's like no buttons .Project Manager: Mm that's true , yeah .Marketing: You know what a Mac iPod is ? I'm thinking however Mac iPod is sort of last year'sbecause it's very hard and sort of glassy and glossy , so I'm thinking if we imagine that we're taking some of the features of a Mac iPod and we're then making it smore of like a more of like a comfortable type of {disfmarker} or more of like a {disfmarker} {vocalsound} maybe more vibrant to friendly thing to have . Umand then so this is w with all that information what I'm what I'm suggesting in this slide here is that we we take these ideas , and as we get into more the moreum {vocalsound} techni like sort of production side of things , that we think about shape , materials , and themes or series that go throughout . Sort of like a{disfmarker} I dunno like um we think of some kind of a thin theme that unifies it all , that we agree on , uh sorta like a marketing identity . Um {disfmarker}Does that make sense ? Yeah . So {vocalsound} so like I threw out a few ideas there just to kinda get us thinking along those lines like lemon , lime , I dunno ,green colours , pe whatever , it's just an idea , 'cause I'm thinking that some of these ideas will seem quite coherent if we use them in terms of their {disfmarker}what people associate this {disfmarker} them with in terms of texture , shape , colours , things like that .Project Manager: Mm 'kay . Great .Marketing: Like umthe ones the ones which I'm most fond of in terms of giving like a theme to it would be like um like lemon or something like that , you know something which is ,like you see a lot in in other areas . Like I see lots of websites and things that seem to associate with like lemon and lime and {disfmarker}Project Manager: Okay.Marketing: So anyway it's just just an idea .Project Manager: Yeah .Marketing: I'm thinking maybe we could incorporate some of these features into a fairly um{disfmarker} {vocalsound} into something which is {disfmarker} which seems to have something to it which is almost gimmicky because like um like somethingto do with like lighting within it . Like you know just within the simple sense , when you pick up a phone and touch a button it uh lights up , q usually the buttonslight up .Project Manager: Ah .Marketing: How can we build on that ? Maybe like it could light up in different colours or something or or people could buy the buythe control and then it comes with different like covers or something so .Project Manager: Okay .Marketing: Anyway those are {disfmarker} that's all I have,Project Manager: That's great .Marketing: but uh hopefully we can we can revisit those ideas when we get into {disfmarker}Project Manager: Uh-huh . Okaygreat .Marketing: {gap}Project Manager: Um thank you for that . Uh Craig do you wannaMarketing: Yep .Project Manager: uh plug yours in then ?User Interface:Is it working ?Project Manager: {vocalsound} Mm . Not quite .Marketing: Did you press F_ eight ?Industrial Designer: It's probably not sending . Yeah .Project


Lynne Neagle AM: Good morning, everyone. Welcome to the Children, Young People and Education Committee. We've received apologies for absence from JulieMorgan, and I'm very pleased to welcome David Rees, who is substituting for her today. Can I ask Members whether there are any declarations of interest,please? No. Okay. Thank you very much. Item 2 this morning, then, is a session with the Minister for Children and Social Care on the Welsh Government'schildcare offer. So, I'm very pleased to welcome Huw Irranca-Davies, Minister for Children and Social Care, also Jo-Anne Daniels, director for communities andtackling poverty, and Owain Lloyd, deputy director for childcare, play and early years. So, thank you, all, for your attendance. If you're happy, we'll go straightinto questions from Members, and the first questions come from Hefin David.Hefin David AM: Good morning, Minister. How has it gone in the early implementerlocal authority areas, and is it something of a mixed bag?Huw Irranca-Davies AM: It's gone well, but I'm glad we've done it through this process of earlyimplementer, actually piloting it, because we're learning lessons as we go along. It has gone well. It's been encouraging, to the extent that we're at the pointwhere we're expanding—we've made announcements on expanding some of the early implementer areas so we can learn more lessons. But, in terms of whatwe're learning, one is the bureaucracy around the current approach that we're taking, because it's being done on the seven early implementers. So, we're askingparents to come in, provide their wage slips, provide the birth certificates, and so on. You're dealing sometimes with parents and families with complex issues andcomplex backgrounds, so it's difficult. And the burden of administration on that is falling to each pilot area. In one case, it's a whole authority, but it's onlyone—that's in Blaenau Gwent. In others, it's smaller areas. So, we're also hitting those—. The other big challenge we're hitting is communication. So, we'rehaving parents, generally, who are outside the areas entirely saying, 'Why haven't we got this yet? Can we please get into it?', which is encouraging. But theother thing we're having is people who are within pilot authorities, where it doesn't extend to the whole authority, saying, 'Well, hold on now, we think we qualifyfor something under universal care, we think we qualify for something on tax credits. Why don't we qualify for this?' 'Well, you're not in the pilot area.' So, we'relearning about these things, but the biggest one, I have to say, is the administrative burden, and I think that's interesting in how we take this forward for a widerroll-out.Hefin David AM: What is the administrative burden? What specifically is that?Huw Irranca-Davies AM: It is that sheer burden on each local authority, andeach pilot area, to administer a scheme where we are asking parents to prove eligibility, to bring in documents to prove their eligibility, to make adjustments as itgoes forward based on what their changing work patterns are, what their salary slips say. It's incredibly bureaucratic. So, yesterday, when we made thestatement following the announcement of the introduction of the Childcare Funding (Wales) Bill, we made clear that our preferred option, as put within thatframework Bill, is actually to build on, and to learn from the lessons as well, the model of the HM Revenue and Customs type of model, where you actuallyhave—and this, by the way, is supported by local authority providers out there—one system that is a centralised system, where there is clarity, that is handled,that has elements of information sharing between Government departments, such as the Department for Work and Pensions, and so on, so that the work is donefor the parents, and the work is done for the local authorities; much cleaner, much simpler.Hefin David AM: How confident are you that you can achieve that by2020?Huw Irranca-Davies AM: We are very confident. But, as I say, I'm more confident in the fact that we're actually piloting it, and phasing this in, because Ithink we've learned from some of the experiences elsewhere, including just over the border in England, where they have a different version of a childcare offer,but they've gone for it in a big-bang approach. And it has led to technical issues, it's led to volume issues, where their anticipation of how many people would buyinto it was overwhelmed by the numbers who actually then came forward for it, and the complexity, I have to say, of individual family situations, whereas whatwe are doing, Hefin, is taking this forward very, very carefully. Each roll-out, each expansion that we're doing of the pilot is not—and I know this has caused somepeople to come back and say, 'Why can't we all have it now?' It's because we're only rolling out to areas where we now need to learn a lesson about whether it'srurality or, as it will be within densely urban areas, where the cost might be slightly higher, and that's allowing us to have the confidence that we'll have it. We'veexpanded the whole offer across Gwynedd—the whole of Gwynedd, Anglesey and Caerphilly. Flintshire now have a cross-authority offer. Rhondda Cynon Taf isanticipating doing this by September. Swansea is planning to do it, they tell us, in due course—in short order—as well. So, we have the confidence now that, withthat learning going on from different pilot areas, we'll have the full roll-out by 2020.Hefin David AM: Is it true to say that, in the early adopter areas, the intensityof demand for the services is not spread evenly across?Huw Irranca-Davies AM: Absolutely.Hefin David AM: And why is that? Is that going to cause a problemacross Wales?Huw Irranca-Davies AM: No, it won't cause a problem. If we were doing this tomorrow, it would cause a problem, but what we're learning isthat there are some economic issues and then there are some cultural issues. So ,there are issues to do with—. It's not capacity, by the way. We're not finding aproblem here with capacity, whether it's in English language provision or whether it's in Welsh language provision, whether it's in children with complex needs,we're not finding that as an issue. But what we are finding is, for example, one of the well-known ones—and I've spoken about this before—is that, in some of thesouth Wales Valleys constituencies, there is a family tradition of doing childcare within the families. I've done it myself. Grandparents, aunts, uncles and so onprovide free, unregistered, unlicensed childcare of a sort. Now that isn't what the scheme is about, by the way, I have to say. So, some of the aspects arecultural, but what we're also doing alongside this, whilst looking at the capacity and looking at how we learnt from the pilot roll-out, is that communicationwith parents and providers and local authorities as well. So, we have a whole programme running alongside it. It's about communicating what the offer is,how simple it is to get invovled in this and where they go to, and, critically, I think, how we do that national roll-out would be important as well.Hefin David AM:So, given the point you've made about grandparents and family, wouldn't it be sensible, then, to offer a subsidy to grandparents to provide this kind of care?HuwIrranca-Davies AM: Unregistered grandparents?Hefin David AM: Well, through some kind of analysis of that.Huw Irranca-Davies AM: Well, we don't think so andthere are good reasons behind this.Hefin David AM: Is it because you say that they wouldn't be registered as carers for their own family member?HuwIrranca-Davies AM: Yes, but there's a deeper reason behind that registration as well. The childcare offer isn't only to just provide childcare; it's the wideraspects that come with this. This childcare offer ties into the foundation years offer. There's an element of education linked to the childcare offer—there's that10 hours of the early education foundation years as well. The two tie together. So, there's an issue here with quality, about socialisation and how children learn inan environment, as opposed to purely—as great as all our grandparents and aunts and uncles are—simply child-minding. That's one important distinction. So,the focus of this scheme is very much on registered licensed providers, which could be, by the way—because we do have them, and we're discussing this at themoment internally and with the Professional Association for Childcare and Early Years and others—grandparents who are actually registered and inspected by thecare inspectorate? We're having those discussions.Hefin David AM: How many of them are there?Huw Irranca-Davies AM: We don't think there is a huge number,but we're trying to bottom this out at the moment. We haven't got the exact number, but we don't think they are huge numbers, but there are, in ourconstituencies, registered, licensed, inspected grandparents who look after other people's children in a little group of four or five or six or seven, but also theirown grandchildren.Hefin David AM: So, they're a kind of grandparents club.Huw Irranca-Davies AM: Yes. Now that, I would say to you—and I know that Darrenraised this on the floor yesterday as well—is markedly different in the nature of it, because it's registered and licensed, than simply informal grandparents oraunts or uncles. I say that as well because we also get people who will say to us, 'I don't want to be paid for looking after my grandchildren; I look after mygrandchildren because I look after them'.Hefin David AM: And what about the view, given that you said that capacity wasn't an issue, of the National DayNurseries Association, which says that Wales has the most fragile childcare sector in Great Britain?Huw Irranca-Davies AM: I don't agree we have the mostfragile, but the childcare offer gives us an opportunity to make it more resilient and more robust. We know from the early piloting, and as we roll it out, that thereis the immense diversity within the childcare sector, and we're talking about everything from those very small terraced homes that have been licensed andregistered to take six or seven children, to large, complex environments that perhaps are on maintained premises within school premises, provided by a voluntaryor third sector organisation. So, there's immense complexity and we know that that differs across Wales, and we also know there's immense regional variation inthe scale and the type of childcare offer. What the roll-out allows us to do, backed by £60 million of capital money behind it, in terms of capital development ofchildcare facilities, backed by a 10-year workforce development plan for childcare—and bear in mind this is bolted in as part of our foundational economyapproach as well—that means, by 2020, we get to the point where we're putting the money into the capital development but also to the workforce development,because in some areas we're finding it's not to do with lack of provision and facilities, it's to do with lack of staff. In other areas, we're finding there are plenty ofstaff but not the adequate facilities. We've got to get it right.Hefin David AM: That's fair enough, but is it realistic to think that there's going to be capacity growthin the next two to three years to deliver the product? Is that realistic to think that that foundational sector can provide that level of staffing?Huw Irranca-DaviesAM: Yes, I think it is, absolutely, because, again, what we're finding is we've got several things going on at once in terms of how we monitor and assess the


User Interface: Okay .Industrial Designer: Or you get it . Okay .User Interface: No I don't think so it has to be like that yeah and you have to adjust the length .Okay , and then .Project Manager: {vocalsound} So we uh {disfmarker} we will wait for Anna , a few minutes .User Interface: Yeah , s yeah , um .IndustrialDesigner: {vocalsound} Mm {vocalsound} . Yours is well {disfmarker} {vocalsound}User Interface: I think you can put anywhere you want , actually . IthinIndustrial Designer: Yeah but the the mic should not {disfmarker}User Interface: It's not a directional mic , anyway .Project Manager: I think it should worklike this .Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}User Interface: Uh .Project Manager: So I will try to get my presentation running .User Interface: Yeah .IndustrialDesigner: Yeah .Project Manager: Mm .Industrial Designer: Mm . Can't help you with that .User Interface: Last .Project Manager: It's no matter .IndustrialDesigner: Okay , it's y yeah .Project Manager: No problem . Ah yes .Industrial Designer: Right .User Interface: Okay .Industrial Designer: Then press uh alUserInterface: Okay .Industrial Designer: This .Project Manager: I don't know .Industrial Designer: You know ?Project Manager: Just try .User Interface: 'Kay .ProjectManager: On this normal {disfmarker}Industrial Designer: Oh oh .User Interface: Alt F_ five .Project Manager: Good . Doesn't appear on the screen here.Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Right well {disfmarker}Project Manager: Oh .Industrial Designer: Wow . Amazing . It's working {vocalsound} .ProjectManager: Okay . Thank you . {vocalsound} Uh .Marketing: Hold that . Okay .Project Manager: Yes and you can put can clip it uh on your {disfmarker}Marketing:Okay . Mm .Project Manager: Somewhere . So , {vocalsound} good morning , everyone . Um {disfmarker} Welcome at uh {disfmarker} at the kick off meeting ofour uh latest project .Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}Project Manager: I hope you all have been uh updated about it .Industrial Designer: Yeah .ProjectManager: Good .User Interface: So . Yes .Project Manager: So w we will try to structure this uh meeting with an a with an agenda uh as presented here . Um afterthe opening we will tr get acquainted to each other .User Interface: {vocalsound}Project Manager: See what our roles are in this project . So , um {disfmarker}We have been provided with uh some uh w technical tools to uh {disfmarker} to communicate and to well , learn from each other's plans uh as I can say um so wwe will also try to uh to get acquainted to this tools so they are also new to me I don't know whether you worked with them before . Um then we will come to theuh to the to the actual project plan . You all know I hope {vocalsound} how it's about uh the uh new r remote control we are going going to design .Marketing:Mm-hmm .User Interface: Total .Project Manager: Uh then we will uh discuss uh , well , how it should be and uh {disfmarker} wh what uh what our new productshould look lite {disfmarker} like . And uh well then uh after some twenty five minutes I hope uh we can end this meeting . So . Um basically this is about a uh anew c remote control . Um {disfmarker} We {disfmarker} When you design a new product you of {disfmarker} uh you of course want it to be original . Be uh{disfmarker} we want to be distinguished , mm ? People uh want to uh when they look at the shelf want to think , well that's the product I I need . So it needs tobe trendy . I mean trendy is what people want , so then I w they will buy our product . But then , uh , it also should work uh user friendly and uh otherwisepeople uh uh well it will not be uh be rated very well in consumer uh articles and like that .Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}Project Manager: So , the generaloutline of uh new project will be we first uh go through a functional design phase . Um {disfmarker} You all get uh um certain task uh in this uh in this phase anduh then we will meet again and uh discuss this functional design . And the same holds for the uh ph two phases uh after this , the conceptual design and afterthat a a more detailed design in which the the final project should get its definite shape . Alright , but first we will do some uh tool training . In all in front of youuh you see uh the uh notebooks and w uh n note blocks and we have here a a {disfmarker} a {disfmarker} a white-board .User Interface: WhiteboMarketing:Mm-hmm .Project Manager: And um well it should work uh {disfmarker} I've read it from my uh from some colleague that it should work with some kind oftoolbar . I didn't find out yet how it work , but maybe one of you did , so {disfmarker} Um {disfmarker}Industrial Designer: Under documents in the sharedfolder . Okay .Project Manager: Yes . Do {disfmarker} Do we have to say something about that ? I I I'm not fully updated about this shared folder uh .IndustrialDesigner: Yeah , I guess we'll have a shared folder uh with documents that we can share . And uh , yeah .Project Manager: Yes well we will then find out ho howit works .Industrial Designer: Yes .Project Manager: Um . Well , this seems to me , yes , some computer program but I didn't find it yet . So , we'll come to thatlater . So , uh now we will try out the white-board we have here . So , I would suggest uh {disfmarker}Industrial Designer: Each of us is going .Project Manager:Well , yes , um we uh we should try to t to draw on it and then well it should be smart some way . I {disfmarker} {vocalsound} I'm not really sure how this works, but {disfmarker}Industrial Designer: Okay , shall I start ?Marketing: Mm . Yeah .Project Manager: Yes ,User Interface: Yeah ,Project Manager: a good idea Mael.User Interface: you can start it you know .Marketing: I think for us it's just like a normal whiteboard , but they'll be recording what we write down .IndustrialDesigner: So , iUser Interface: No they will record through that . There's a sensor over thereMarketing: Mm . Mm .User Interface: which is going to record thestrokes that you make .Marketing: But for us it's just like a normal whiteboard .Project Manager: Okay .User Interface: Yeah .Project Manager: 'Kay .UserInterface: {vocalsound}Industrial Designer: But it's {disfmarker}Marketing: {vocalsound}Industrial Designer: Actually , I think I cannot go with uh{disfmarker}Project Manager: You {disfmarker} you {disfmarker} D doesn't it work ? Maybe someo Maybe {disfmarker} maybe Anna , maybe you can start.Marketing: Mm-hmm .Industrial Designer: Yeah .Project Manager: Then he can maybe find out to get his cord right .Marketing: I have to draw .Project Manager:So um {disfmarker} L Why don't you draw uh {vocalsound} your favourite animal on on th on the white-board .Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}Marketing: Mmy {disfmarker} my favourite animal . {vocalsound} Sorry this is all tangled up here .Project Manager: Oh , I see uh {disfmarker}Marketing: That's better .UserInterface: Yeah .Marketing: {vocalsound}Project Manager: Yeah . Yes . Mm . So draw it . We will try to guess what it is . {vocalsound}Marketing: Mm-hmm .{vocalsound} I'm a very bad drawer .Project Manager: {vocalsound}Marketing: Weird . Um . You're not gonna be able to guess from my drawing . I'm a baddrawer . Okay .Project Manager: Mm .Marketing: They're ears , by the way .User Interface: 's a cat .Marketing: No . Um close though . Okay so {disfmarker} likea pet animal .Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Okay .Marketing: {vocalsound} Like a cat .User Interface: Yeah .Project Manager: It's like a cat , so I guess it's acat . {vocalsound}Marketing: No , not a cat though .Project Manager: What is this now ?User Interface: Ah you forget about it .Industrial Designer: You're on theknife .User Interface: Yeah , uh I think it's fine . I just don't want to carry it off . Man , this wires , eh ? We need a wireless microphone .Industrial Designer:{vocalsound}User Interface: You know ? Pro specially we should next project we should take l like that .Marketing: Okay . So .Project Manager: So ,Marketing:It's not a cat ,Project Manager: that's the cat .Marketing: it's a dog .Project Manager: Oh .User Interface: So .Industrial Designer: Mael .Project Manager: It's adog .Marketing: Yes .Project Manager: So but that's also kind of cat ,User Interface: OhProject Manager: isn't it ?User Interface: the dog doesn't have a tail?Marketing: {vocalsound} It's got a tail then .Project Manager: B bo both predators .User Interface: Yeah , sure , yeah .Marketing: Yeah yeah .User Interface: Ithought so . The dogs have a tail .Marketing: So do cats .Project Manager: So , thank you . Uh d did you uh work out cord ?Industrial Designer:{vocalsound}User Interface: {vocalsound}Marketing: And you guessed cats without a tail . {vocalsound}User Interface: Yeah .Industrial Designer: Yeah , I thinkI will go without {disfmarker} without it ,Marketing: Okay .Project Manager: Okay .Industrial Designer: right ?User Interface: It'll still not extend , right ? It's notup to that .Marketing: Okay , there you go . So what favourite characteristics . Uh . Dogs are always friendly and loyal and fun . A horse ?User Interface: It's ahorse .Marketing: {vocalsound} This is why you're the designer . And I'm marketing . {vocalsound}Project Manager: Yes . Yes , yes this is {disfmarker} Yesdefinitely a horse . Yes . Oh very good . So {disfmarker}Marketing: Ah {vocalsound}Project Manager: I suppose it {disfmarker}User Interface: Ah I think you canput that .Marketing: Mm-hmm . That's it . {vocalsound} A blue and black zebra {vocalsound} .User Interface: {vocalsound} {vocalsound}Marketing:{vocalsound}Project Manager: Yes . Can {disfmarker} you can meet them in Africa , I think . Yes . Very good . So {disfmarker}Marketing: The very rare bluezebras . Yes .User Interface: {gap} I'll tell to get it off my {disfmarker}Project Manager: Ma Matthew ?User Interface: Uh ? Mm-hmm .Project Manager: So{disfmarker}Marketing: You got a lot of room here .Project Manager: Maybe {disfmarker}Marketing: You can probably reach .User Interface: Oh y it's not forthat .Marketing: No ?User Interface: No .Project Manager: I hope you have some space in your uh the horse of uh Mael .User Interface: Okay . Yeah . So whatshould I draw ? Mm . He has already to do cat .Marketing: I took a dog . {vocalsound}Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}Marketing: Um . A mouse ?ProjectManager: This looks likes a cat who has been driven over . {vocalsound}Marketing: {vocalsound} Okay .Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Yeah .{vocalsound}Project Manager: {vocalsound}Industrial Designer: And we should sum up its favourite charas characteristics , right ?Marketing: Mm-hmm .{vocalsound}Project Manager: Yes , the moustache .Industrial Designer: So {disfmarker}Project Manager: That's {disfmarker} that's definitely a cat .Marketing:Mm-hmm .Industrial Designer: Uh yeah . And i Th They like to sleep , that's why you said you they are like this .Project Manager: {vocalsound} It's quite , youknow {disfmarker} relaxed situation .Marketing: {vocalsound}Industrial Designer: Yeah . {vocalsound}Project Manager: Yes .Marketing: Mm-hmm .ProjectManager: {vocalsound} Yes , okay . {vocalsound}Marketing: {vocalsound}Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} She has the small legs .Project Manager: Th thankyou , Matthew .Industrial Designer: Yeah . {vocalsound} Thank you , Matthew .Marketing: {vocalsound} It's a very big rat . Or a very small cat .