Grad A: OK . We seem to be recording .Professor G: Alright !Grad A: So , sorry about not {disfmarker}Professor G: We 're not crashing .PhD D: Number four.Grad A: not pre - doing everything . The lunch went a little later than I was expecting , Chuck .PhD E: Hmm ?Professor G: OK .PhD B: Chuck was telling toomany jokes , or something ?Grad A: Yep . Pretty much .PhD E: Yeah .Professor G: OK . {vocalsound} Does anybody have an agenda ?Grad A: No .Postdoc F: Well, I 'm {disfmarker} I sent a couple of items . They 're {disfmarker} they 're sort of practical .Professor G: I thought {pause} somebody had .Postdoc F: I don'tknow if you 're {disfmarker}Professor G: Yeah , that 's right .Postdoc F: if {disfmarker} if that 's too practical for what we 're {pause} focused on .Grad A: Imean , we don't want anything too practical .Professor G: Yeah , we only want th useless things .Grad A: Yeah , that would be {disfmarker}Professor G: Yeah .No , why don't we talk about practical things ?Postdoc F: OK .Professor G: Sure .Postdoc F: Well , um , I can {pause} give you an update on the {pause}transcription effort .Professor G: Great .Postdoc F: Uh , maybe {nonvocalsound} raise the issue of microphone , uh , um procedures with reference to the{pause} cleanliness of the recordings .Professor G: OK , transcription , uh , microphone issues {disfmarker}Postdoc F: And then maybe {nonvocalsound} ask , thuh , these guys . The {disfmarker} we have great {disfmarker} great , uh , p steps forward in terms of the nonspeech - speech pre - segmenting of the signal.Professor G: OK .Grad A: Well , we have steps forward .PhD C: Yeah .Postdoc F: Well , it 's a {disfmarker} it 's a big improvement .PhD C: I would prefer this.Professor G: Yes . Yeah , well . OK . Uh {disfmarker}PhD D: We talk about the {disfmarker} {vocalsound} the results ofProfessor G: You have some{disfmarker} Yeah .Grad A: I have a little bit of IRAM stuffProfessor G: OK .PhD D: use {disfmarker}Grad A: but {pause} I 'm not sure if that 's of generalinterest or not .Professor G: Uh , bigram ?Grad A: IRAM .PhD D: IRAM .Professor G: IRAM .Grad A: IRAM , bigram ,Professor G: Well , m maybe .PhD D: Bi -Bigram .Grad A: you know .Professor G: Yeah , let 's {disfmarker} let 's see where we are at three - thirty .PhD B: Hmm .Professor G: Um {disfmarker}PhD B:Since , uh {disfmarker} since I have to leave as usual at three - thirty , can we do the interesting stuff first ?Postdoc F: I beg your pardon ?Professor G: Well{disfmarker}PhD C: Which is {disfmarker} ?Grad A: What 's the interesting stuff ?Postdoc F: I beg your pardon ?PhD D: Yeah .Professor G: Yeah . Th - now youget to tell us what 's the interesting part .PhD E: Please specify .Professor G: But {disfmarker}PhD B: Well , uh , I guess the work that 's been {pause} done onsegmentation would be most {disfmarker}PhD C: Yeah .Postdoc F: I think that would be a good thing to start with .PhD B: Yeah .Professor G: OK . Um , and , um, {vocalsound} the other thing , uh , which I 'll just say very briefly that maybe relates to that a little bit , which is that , um , uh , one of the suggestions thatcame up in a brief meeting I had the other day when I was in Spain with , uh , Manolo Pardo and {vocalsound} Javier , uh , Ferreiros , who was {pause} herebefore , was , um , why not start with what they had before but add in the non - silence boundaries . So , in what Javier did before when they were doing , um{disfmarker} h he was looking for , uh , speaker change {pause} points .PhD D: Mm - hmm .Professor G: Um . As a simplification , he originally did this onlyusing {pause} silence as , uh , a {pause} putative , uh , speaker change point .PhD C: Yeah .Professor G: And , uh , he did not , say , look at points where youwere changing broad sp uh , phonetic class , for instance . And for Broadcast News , that was fine . Here obviously it 's not .PhD D: Yeah .Professor G: And , um ,so one of the things that they were pushing in d in discussing with me is , um , w why are you spending so much time , uh , on the , uh , feature issue , uh , whenperhaps if you sort of deal with what you were using beforePhD D: Uh - huh .Professor G: and then just broadened it a bit , instead of just ta using silence asputative change point also {disfmarker} ?PhD D: Nnn , yeah .Professor G: So then you 've got {disfmarker} you already have the super - structure withGaussians and H - you know , simple H M Ms and so forth . And you {disfmarker} you might {disfmarker} So there was a {disfmarker} there was a little bit of a{disfmarker} a {disfmarker} a {disfmarker} a difference of opinion because I {disfmarker} I thought that it was {disfmarker} it 's interesting to look at whatfeatures are useful .PhD D: Yeah .Professor G: But , uh , on the other hand I saw that the {disfmarker} they had a good point that , uh , if we had something thatworked for many cases before , maybe starting from there a little bit {disfmarker} Because ultimately we 're gonna end up {vocalsound} with some s su kind ofstructure like that ,PhD D: Yeah .Professor G: where you have some kind of simple HMM and you 're testing the hypothesis that , {vocalsound} uh , there is achange .PhD D: Yeah .Professor G: So {disfmarker} so anyway , I just {disfmarker} reporting that .PhD D: OK .Professor G: But , uh , uh {disfmarker} So . Yeah, why don't we do the speech - nonspeech discussion ?Postdoc F: Yeah . Do {disfmarker} I {disfmarker} I hear {disfmarker} you {disfmarker} you didn't{disfmarker}PhD C: Speech - nonspeech ? OK .Postdoc F: Uh - huh . Yeah .PhD C: Um , so , uh , what we basically did so far was using the mixed file to{disfmarker} to detect s speech or nonspeech {pause} portions in that .Professor G: Mm - hmm .PhD C: And what I did so far is I just used our old Munichsystem , which is an HMM - ba based system with Gaussian mixtures for s speech and nonspeech . And it was a system which used only one Gaussian for silenceand one Gaussian for speech . And now I added , uh , multi - mixture possibility for {disfmarker} {vocalsound} for speech and nonspeech .Professor G: Mm -hmm . Mm - hmm .PhD C: And I did some training on {disfmarker} on one dialogue , which was transcribed by {disfmarker} Yeah . We {disfmarker} we did anons s speech - nonspeech transcription .PhD D: Jose .PhD C: Adam , Dave , and I , we did , for that dialogue and I trained it on that . And I did some pre -segmentations for {disfmarker} for Jane . And I 'm not sure how good they are or what {disfmarker} what the transcribers say . They {disfmarker} they can useit or {disfmarker} ?Postdoc F: Uh , they {disfmarker} they think it 's a terrific improvement . And , um , it real it just makes a {disfmarker} a world of difference.Professor G: Hmm .Postdoc F: And , um , y you also did some something in addition which was , um , for those in which there {nonvocalsound} was , uh , quietspeakers in the mix .PhD C: Yeah . Uh , yeah . That {disfmarker} that was one {disfmarker} one {disfmarker} one thing , uh , why I added more mixtures for{disfmarker} for the speech . So I saw that there were loud {disfmarker} loudly speaking speakers and quietly speaking speakers .Professor G: Mm - hmm .PhDC: And so I did two mixtures , one for the loud speakers and one for the quiet speakers .Grad A: And did you hand - label who was loud and who was quiet , ordid you just {disfmarker} ?PhD C: I did that for {disfmarker} for five minutes of one dialogueGrad A: Right .PhD C: and that was enough to {disfmarker} to trainthe system .PhD B: W What {disfmarker} ?PhD D: Yeah .PhD C: And so it {disfmarker} it adapts , uh , on {disfmarker} while running . So .PhD B: What kind of ,uh , front - end processing did you do ?PhD C: Hopefully .PhD D: OK .PhD C: It 's just our {disfmarker} our old Munich , uh , loudness - based spectrum on melscale twenty {disfmarker} twenty critical bands and then loudness .PhD B: Mm - hmm .PhD C: And four additional features , which is energy , loudness , modifiedloudness , and zero crossing rate . So it 's twenty - four {disfmarker} twenty - four features .PhD B: Mmm .Professor G: Mm - hmm .Postdoc F: And you alsoprovided me with several different versions ,PhD C: Yeah .Postdoc F: which I compared .PhD C: Yeah .Postdoc F: And so you change {nonvocalsound}parameters . What {disfmarker} do you wanna say something about the parameters {nonvocalsound} that you change ?PhD C: Yeah . You can specify{vocalsound} the minimum length of speech or {disfmarker} and silence portions which you want . And so I did some {disfmarker} some modifications in thoseparameters , basically changing the minimum {disfmarker} minimum {pause} length for s for silence to have , er to have , um {disfmarker} yeah {disfmarker}to have more or less , uh , silence portions in inserted . So .Grad A: Right . So this would work well for , uh , pauses and utterance boundaries and things like that.PhD D: Yeah .PhD C: Yeah . Yeah .Grad A: But for overlap I imagine that doesn't work at all ,PhD C: Yeah .PhD D: Yeah .Grad A: that you 'll have plenty of ssections that are {disfmarker}PhD C: Yeah .PhD D: Yeah .PhD C: That 's it . Yeah .Postdoc F: Mm - hmm , mm - hmm .PhD D: Yeah .Grad A: But{disfmarker}Postdoc F: That 's true . But {nonvocalsound} it {disfmarker} it saves so much time {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} the {nonvocalsound}transcribersProfessor G: Um {disfmarker}Grad A: Yep .Postdoc F: just enormous , enormous savings . Fantastic .Professor G: That 's great . Um , just qu onequickly , uh , still on the features . So {vocalsound} you have these twenty - four features .PhD C: Yeah .Professor G: Uh , a lot of them are spectral features . Isthere a {disfmarker} a transformation , uh , like principal components transformation or something ?PhD C: No .Grad A: Yeah . It was IS two .PhD C: No . W wwe {disfmarker} originally we did thatProfessor G: Just {disfmarker}PhD C: but we saw , uh , when we used it , uh , f for our close - talking microphone , which{disfmarker} yeah , for our {disfmarker} for our recognizer in Munich {disfmarker} we saw that w it 's {disfmarker} it 's not {disfmarker} it 's not so necessary .It {disfmarker} it works as well f with {disfmarker} with {disfmarker} without , uh , a LDA or something .Professor G: OK . OK . No , I was j {pause} curious.PhD C: Yeah .Postdoc F: Mm - hmm .Professor G: Yeah , I don't think it 's a big deal for this application ,PhD C: Yeah .PhD D: Right .Professor G: but{disfmarker} but {disfmarker} Yeah , it 's a {disfmarker}Postdoc F: Mm - hmm . OK . But then there 's another thing that also Thilo 's involved with , which is ,um {disfmarker} OK , and {disfmarker} and also Da - Dave Gelbart . So there 's this {disfmarker} this problem of {disfmarker} and w and {disfmarker} so wehad this meeting . Th - the {nonvocalsound} {disfmarker} also Adam , before the {disfmarker} the {disfmarker} before you went away . Uh we , um{disfmarker} regarding the representation {nonvocalsound} of overlaps , because at present , {nonvocalsound} {vocalsound} um , because {nonvocalsound} ofthe limitations of {vocalsound} th the interface we 're using , overlaps are , uh , not being {nonvocalsound} encoded by {nonvocalsound} the transcribers in ascomplete {nonvocalsound} and , uh , detailed a way as it might be , and as might be desired {disfmarker} I think would be desired in the corpus ultimately


Marketing: {vocalsound} That went well , thank you .Project Manager: That's great .Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} 'Kay .Marketing: Perfect .Project Manager:Alright , let me just PowerPoint this up . {vocalsound} {vocalsound} {vocalsound} Right so um this meeting will be about the conceptual design , don't ask me sprecisely what conceptual design is , it's just something important that we need to do . Um , think of it {disfmarker} 's kind of uh turning the abstract into slightlymore concrete . In this meeting ideally we'll come to some final decisions on what we're gonna do for the prototype . Um . Right so um , apologies for the lastmeeting , it was brought to my attention that I did not make the roles clear enough , um , so I will attempt to do so more accurately in this particular meeting .Um , fair enough , thanks for the input , 's always good . Um . So , basically all we're gonna do is have some presentations again much like last time , um , andgonna go through you , uh whoever wants to go first is f fine by me um and we'll collate what we know about um what we discussed in the last meeting , possibledirections . {vocalsound} And then we'll make some more decisions on um basic uh firm up our idea on how we want this remote control to look and work . So ,perfect . So , without th further ado , whoever wants to go first is free to .Industrial Designer: I'll go first .Project Manager: Alright Nathan ,Marketing: Go ahead.Project Manager: take it away . It is Nathan right ? I'm not calling you the wrong name over and over again ?Industrial Designer: No Nathan's fine .Marketing:{vocalsound}Project Manager: {vocalsound} Good .Industrial Designer: It's either Nathan or participant two .Project Manager: {vocalsound}Marketing:{vocalsound}User Interface: {vocalsound} Mister participant two that is . {vocalsound}Industrial Designer: Uh .Project Manager: {vocalsound}Marketing: Nice.Industrial Designer: Okay . Um ,Project Manager: Nice .Industrial Designer: basically what I'm gonna have to talk to you about today is um component designand it's been brought to my attention that we may be somewhat limited as to what we can do because of what our manufacturer offers ,Project Manager: Mm.Industrial Designer: so {disfmarker} Basically what I'm gonna be doing is talking to you about that . Um , components of a remote control , okay . We've alreadykind of gone over this but we're gonna have to get into more detail and probably have to reach some conclusions some time soon . Energy source , um , ourmanufacturer offers a variety of energy sources , your standard battery , solar cells . Our manufacturer didn't say anything about lithium so we might have tolook {disfmarker} if we do go that route , we might have to look elsewhere . Um , and also there's a kinetic energy possibility . Basically , it's like a um{disfmarker} the idea of moving the remote would create enough energy to keep it running . So that's one possibility but I don't know whether that would bepowerful enough to illuminate a touch screen .Project Manager: Hmm .Industrial Designer: So we'll have to look into that .Marketing: Mm .Industrial Designer:Um , the case , we have a few options , plastic , rubber or wood . Um and then as far as the way it's shaped , we can do standard boring flat , which we probablydon't wanna do , curved or very sexy double curved .Project Manager: What kind of th thickness are we looking at ?Industrial Designer: Um , I imagine that wecould specify . Um , I don't see any reason to go outside of the convention of three or four millimetres . Yeah .Project Manager: Okay , brilliant .IndustrialDesigner: Um , the buttons , there are multiple scroll buttons available from our manufacturer , but to use those we'd have to use more chips , um and that wouldcost us more . And if we do go with the rubber doubled curved case um we'll have to use rubber push buttons because the other buttons aren't compatible withthat .Project Manager: Hmm .Industrial Designer: Um and just a little note there ,Marketing: Right .Industrial Designer: touch screen equals many chips whichequals many Euro .Project Manager: {vocalsound}Marketing: {vocalsound} Right . Nice .Industrial Designer: Um , one thing that I noticed was that mostremotes operate on a infrare on the infrared part of the spectrum . So you notice when you push a button on a remote you can't see anything coming out of it butin fact there is light coming out of the remote and you know the television can detect that . And if you were to record {disfmarker} if you were to make a videorecording you could actually see the light . Uh one thing that I thought might be interesting was to use part {disfmarker} use visible light coming out of theremote , just kind of as a fun gimmick .Project Manager: Hmm .Industrial Designer: So you could actually see something coming out of the remote when youpushed it .Marketing: Interesting .Industrial Designer: Course it'd have to be a part of the spectrum that wouldn't damage the human eye or anything like that.Project Manager: {vocalsound} M Maybe {disfmarker}User Interface: {vocalsound}Marketing: Mm . Good call .Project Manager: is there an option that we canhave that off or on so a person can select like {disfmarker}Industrial Designer: Yeah .Marketing: Choose it .Industrial Designer: I am sure that we could do that .Um , of course {disfmarker}Project Manager: Yeah I like the idea , it's a good idea .Industrial Designer: Yeah , just as a fun gimmick .Project Manager: Yeah.Industrial Designer: Just to set us apart a little bit . Um , and then on to the circuit board that we're gonna use , also known as the chip . Uh , we really don'thave any way around the T_A_ one one eight three five .Project Manager: {vocalsound}User Interface: {vocalsound}Industrial Designer: Um findings , okay ,we're very limited by what our current manufacturers can offer , um and my question to all of you is , should we look to other manufacturies or should we justmake do with what we have available ?User Interface: Interesting question .Industrial Designer: 'S a bit of a challenge question .Project Manager: Mm .UserInterface: Yes .Marketing: Well I'd say shop around but with our time constraints , is that really a feasible option ?Project Manager: Mm .Industrial Designer:Right , that's my concern too . Um , if we do go the lithium battery route then we'll have to go outside our current manufacturer . My personal preference is{disfmarker} I'll just throw my cards on the table , uh I think we should probably go the solar battery route , just to kinda keep with the environmentally friendlytheme that we have going on . Uh , I like the idea of the visible light signalling , that's something to set us apart and uh I was thinking about {disfmarker} I wasthinking of ways that we could produce the remote in a variety of different case materials to suit different tastes . So we're not so confined by one style and saysome {disfmarker} you know , say our {disfmarker} the one {disfmarker}Marketing: Right .Industrial Designer: if we just go with one and it doesn't go over wellthen we're in a bad situation .Project Manager: Mm .Marketing: Right .Project Manager: Can we do marketing piloting too ? Try to see what kind {disfmarker}before we launch {disfmarker} can we see how they're received ?Marketing: Um {disfmarker} It's an option , uh but actually there's {disfmarker} I've got someresearch already on like what we're looking at and trends in casing right nowProject Manager: Okay . Okay .Marketing: which actually might even come into playbeforehand ,Project Manager: Okay , perfect .Marketing: it may help us decide for now . Temporarily anyway .Project Manager: Great , thank you very muchNathan .Industrial Designer: Oh yeah , you're welcome .Project Manager: That's perfect , so I guess that makes sense for you to take it from here .Marketing:{vocalsound} I guess so , 'cause I found some interesting things . {vocalsound}Project Manager: {vocalsound}Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}User Interface:{vocalsound} Did you ? {vocalsound}Marketing: You waiting for me ? {vocalsound}Project Manager: Fascinating , compelling even .Marketing: I know , what ateaser ain't it . Um . {vocalsound} Right . SoUser Interface: {vocalsound}Marketing: current market trends . Screen . Um , basically I was looking at what's goingon in the remote control market right now and what's going on in other design fields , to see sort of what's what's trendy , what's new , what's happening . Um ,remote control right now {disfmarker} basically everybody says they want newer , fancier , more exciting {disfmarker} they're sick of this boring , normal ,functional , um {disfmarker} that we need innovative design options and there needs to be an easy user interface . Um the challenge is that current trends rightnow , across the board in fashion , in furniture , in technology , is a very organic fruit and vegetable kind of thing .User Interface: {vocalsound}Project Manager:{vocalsound}User Interface: {vocalsound}Project Manager: {vocalsound}User Interface: {vocalsound}Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}Marketing: Now I'm notsaying we should have , you know , tomato shaped remote controls or anything , but I think it is possible maybe to use um natural colours , like if wood is anoption , that whole organic , sleek , clean ,Industrial Designer: Mm .Marketing: v line thing may be something we can look into . Different skin options , or if wecan't afford this touch plate thing , or touch face screen interface um , maybe having the b images be specific , like you could choose your menu bullets tobeProject Manager: {vocalsound} Tomatoes . {vocalsound}Marketing: a different shapeIndustrial Designer: {vocalsound}User Interface:{vocalsound}Marketing: or {vocalsound} okay , not the example I would choose , but you know what I mean to t sort of {disfmarker} and th apparently the feelof the next couple of years is spongy ,Project Manager: {vocalsound}Industrial Designer: Mm . {vocalsound}User Interface: {vocalsound} I like it , I like it .{vocalsound}Marketing: uh not something I I've come up with a {gap} though if we can get around to getting piloting , I thought maybe a casing option like uhnot like a skin , but like a holder almost if you could do like um , leather options or wood options or something {disfmarker}Industrial Designer: Hmm . I shouldhave mentioned this um . As far as the rubber that we can use {disfmarker} we can use a rubber as part of the case ,Marketing: Mm-hmm .Industrial Designer: ithas a consistency of those stress balls .User Interface: Yes .Marketing: Mm . {vocalsound}Project Manager: Slick , slick .User Interface: Fabulous .Marketing:Might be an interesting way to go . Um , yeah so something to sit on for now . So overall I think we should stick with what we're finding , everyone's looking foreasy to use , technologically innovative and this fancy new {disfmarker} I think perhaps the double curve thing and maybe this rubber option is our best way togo for right now .Industrial Designer: Mm .Marketing: {vocalsound} Um .Project Manager: Interface , oh the interface graphics for the um{disfmarker}Marketing: {vocalsound} Yeah . Um . Well I d but then if the touch screen thing isn't gonna work out for us that's really a non-issue .ProjectManager: Yeah .Industrial Designer: I like the idea of of rubber too because it's {disfmarker} tends to be associated with being durable , something that you can


Professor A: OK .Grad B: OK we 're on and we seem to be working .PhD C: Yes .Professor A: OK .Grad B: We didn't crash {disfmarker} we 're not crashinganymorePhD C: One , two , three , four , fGrad B: and it really bothers me .Professor A: Yeah ?PhD C: No crashing .PhD G: I do . I crashed when I started thismorning .Grad B: You crashed {disfmarker} crashed this morning ? I did not crash this morning .PhD C: Yeah ?Professor A: Oh ! Well maybe it 's just , you know, how many t u u u u how many times you crash in a day .PhD G: Really ? Yeah . Maybe , yeah .Professor A: First time {disfmarker} first time in the day , youknow .PhD G: Or maybe it 's once you 've {pause} done enough meetings {comment} it won't crash on you anymore .PhD E: Yeah .PhD C: No ?Postdoc F: Yeah.PhD G: It 's a matter of experience .PhD E: Yeah .Professor A: Yeah .Postdoc F: Self - learning , yeah .Professor A: That 's {disfmarker} that 's great .PhD G:Yeah .Professor A: Uh .PhD C: Yeah .Professor A: Do we have an agenda ? Liz {disfmarker} Liz and Andreas can't sh can't {disfmarker} uh , can't come .Grad B:I do .Professor A: So , they won't be here .Grad B: I have agenda and it 's all me .PhD G: Did {disfmarker}Grad B: Cuz no one sent me anything else .PhD G: Didthey send , uh , the messages to you about the meeting today ?Grad B: I have no idea but I just got it a few minutes ago .PhD G: Oh .Grad B: Right when youwere in my office it arrived .PhD G: Oh . OK , cuz I checked my mail . I didn't have anything .Grad B: So , does anyone have any a agenda items other than me ?I actually have one more also which is to talk about the digits .Professor A: Uh , right , so {disfmarker} so I {disfmarker} I was just gonna talk briefly about theNSF ITR .PhD C: Mm - hmm . Yeah .Grad B: Oh , great .Professor A: Uh , and then , you have {disfmarker}Postdoc F: Can wProfessor A: I mean , I won't saymuch , but {disfmarker} {comment} uh , but then , uh , you said {disfmarker} wanna talk about digits ?Grad B: I have a short thing about digits and then uh Iwanna talk a little bit about naming conventions , although it 's unclear whether this is the right place to talk about it . So maybe just talk about it very briefly andtake the details to the people who {disfmarker} for whom it 's relevant .Professor A: Right .PhD C: Yeah .Postdoc F: I could always say something abouttranscription . I 've been {disfmarker} {vocalsound} but {disfmarker} but {disfmarker} uh , well {disfmarker}Professor A: Well if we {disfmarker} Yeah , weshouldn't add things in just to add things in . I 'm actually pretty busy today ,Postdoc F: Yeah .Professor A: so if we can {disfmarker} {comment} {vocalsound}we {disfmarker}Postdoc F: Yeah , yeah , yeah .Professor A: a short meeting would be fine .Postdoc F: This does sound like we 're doing fine , yeah . That won'tdo .Grad B: So the only thing I wanna say about digits is , we are pretty much done with the first test set . There are probably forms here and there that aremarked as having been read that weren't really read . So I won't really know until I go through all the transcriber forms and extract out pieces that are in error .So I wa Uh . Two things . The first is what should we do about digits that were misread ? My opinion is , um , we should just throw them out completely , andhave them read again by someone else . You know , the grouping is completely random ,PhD C: Uh - huh .Grad B: so it {disfmarker} it 's perfectly fine to put a{disfmarker} a group together again of errors and have them re - read , just to finish out the test set .Postdoc F: Oh ! By {disfmarker} throw them outcompletely ?Grad B: Um , the other thing you could do is change the transcript to match what they really said . So those are {disfmarker} those are the twooptions .PhD C: Yeah .Postdoc F: Mm - hmm .Professor A: But there 's often things where people do false starts . I know I 've done it , where I say {disfmarker}say a {disfmarker}Grad B: What the transcribers did with that is if they did a correction , and they eventually did read the right string , {comment} you extractthe right string .PhD G: Oh , you 're talking about where they completely read the wrong string and didn't correct it ?PhD E: Yeah .Grad B: Yeah . And didn'tnotice . Which happens in a few places .PhD E: Yeah .PhD G: Ah .PhD C: Yeah .Grad B: So {disfmarker} so {disfmarker}Postdoc F: Well , and s and you 'retalking string - wise , you 're not talking about the entire page ?Grad B: Correct .PhD E: Yeah .Postdoc F: I get it .Grad B: And so the {disfmarker} the twooptions are change the transcript to match what they really said , but then {disfmarker} but then the transcript isn't the Aurora test set anymore . I don't thinkthat really matters because the conditions are so different . And that would be a little easier .PhD G: Well how many are {disfmarker} how {disfmarker} howoften does that happen ?Grad B: Mmm , five or six times .PhD G: Oh , so it 's not very much .Grad B: No , it 's not much at all .PhD G: Seems like we should justchange the transcriptsPhD E: Yeah .Grad B: OK .PhD G: to match .Professor A: Yeah , it 's five or six times out of {pause} thousands ?PhD C: Yeah .Grad B: Fourthousand .Professor A: Four thousand ?PhD C: Four thous Ah ! Four thousand .PhD G: Yeah , it 's {disfmarker}Professor A: Yeah , I would , uh , {vocalsound} takdo the easy way ,PhD G: Yeah .Professor A: yeah .Grad B: OK .PhD C: Yeah .Professor A: It {disfmarker} it 's kinda nice {disfmarker} I mean , wh who knowswhat studies people will be doing on {disfmarker} on speaker - dependent thingsPhD C: Mmm .Professor A: and so I think having {disfmarker} having it all{disfmarker}PhD C: Yeah .Professor A: the speakers who we had is {disfmarker} is at least interesting .PhD G: So you {disfmarker} um , how many digits havebeen transcribed now ?Grad B: Four thousand lines . And each line is between one and about ten digits .PhD G: Four thousand lines ?Grad B: I didn't{disfmarker} I didn't compute the average . I think the average was around four or five .Professor A: So that 's a couple hours of {disfmarker} of , uh , speech ,probably .PhD G: Wow .Grad B: Yep . Yep .Professor A: Which is a yeah reasonable {disfmarker} reasonable test set .PhD C: Mm - hmm .PhD G: Mm - hmm.Grad B: And , Jane , I do have a set of forms which I think you have copies of somewhere .Postdoc F: Mm - hmm . Yeah , true .Grad B: Oh you do ? Oh OK ,good , good .Postdoc F: Mm - hmm . Mm - hmm .Grad B: Yeah , I was just wond I thought I had {disfmarker} had all of them back from you . And then the otherthing is that , uh , the forms in front of us here that we 're gonna read later , were suggested by LizPostdoc F: No , not yet .Grad B: because she wanted to elicitsome different prosodics from digits . And so , uh , I just wanted people to , take a quick look at the instructionsPhD C: Mm - hmm . PhD E: Eight eight two twotwo nine .Grad B: and the way it wa worked and see if it makes sense and if anyone has any comments on it .Professor A: I see . And the decision here , uh , wasto continue with uh the words rather than the {disfmarker} the numerics .Grad B: Uh , yes , although we could switch it back . The problem was O and zero .Although we could switch it back and tell them always to say " zero " or always to say " O " .Postdoc F: Oh {disfmarker}Professor A: Or neither .PhD C: Yeah.Professor A: But it 's just two thing {disfmarker} ways that you can say it .Grad B: Mm - hmm .Professor A: Right ?Grad B: Sure .Postdoc F: Oh .Professor A: Um{disfmarker} um ,PhD E: Yeah .Professor A: that 's the only thought I have because if you t start talking about these , you know u tr She 's trying to get atnatural groupings , but it {disfmarker} there 's {disfmarker} there 's nothing natural about reading numbers this way .Grad B: Right .Professor A: I mean if yousaw a telephone number you would never see it this way .Grad B: The {disfmarker} the problem also is she did want to stick with digits . I mean I 'm speakingfor her since she 's not here .Professor A: Yeah .Grad B: But , um , the other problem we were thinking about is if you just put the numerals , {comment} theymight say forty - three instead of four three .PhD E: Yeah .PhD G: Mmm .PhD C: Yeah .PhD E: Yeah .PhD C: Yeah .Postdoc F: Well , if there 's space , though ,between them . I mean , you can {disfmarker} With {disfmarker} when you space them out they don't look like , uh , forty - three anymore .PhD E: Yeah .GradB: Well , she and I were talking about it ,Professor A: Yeah .Grad B: and she felt that it 's very , very natural to do that sort of chunking .Professor A: She 's right. It 's {disfmarker} it {disfmarker} it 's a different problem . I mean it 's a {disfmarker} it 's a {disfmarker} it 's an interesting problem {disfmarker} I mean , we've done stuff with numbers before , and yeah sometimes people {disfmarker} If you say s " three nine eight one " sometimes people will say " thirty - nineeighty - one " or " three hundred {disfmarker} three hundred eighty - nine one " , or {disfmarker} I don't think they 'd say that ,PhD C: Yeah .Professor A: but{disfmarker} but thGrad B: Not very frequentlyProfessor A: no {disfmarker}Grad B: but , {vocalsound} they certainly could .Professor A: But {disfmarker} Yeah. Uh , th thirty - eight ninety - one is probably how they 'd do it .Grad B: So . I mean , this is something that Liz and I spoke aboutProfessor A: But {disfmarker} Isee .Grad B: and , since this was something that Liz asked for specifically , I think we need to defer to her .Professor A: Mm - hmm .PhD C: Yeah .Professor A: OK. Well , we 're probably gonna be collecting meetings for a while and if we decide we still wanna do some digits later we might be able to do some different verdifferent versions ,Grad B: Do something different ,Professor A: but this is the next suggestion ,Grad B: yeah .Professor A: so . OK . OK , so uh e l I guess , let me, uh , get my {disfmarker} my short thing out about the NSF . I sent this {disfmarker} actually this is maybe a little side thing . Um , I {disfmarker} I sent towhat I thought we had , uh , in some previous mail , as the right joint thing to send to , which was " M {disfmarker} MTG RCDR hyphen joint " .Grad B: It was .Joint . Yep .Professor A: But then I got some sort of funny mail saying that the moderator was going to {disfmarker}Grad B: It 's {disfmarker} That 's becausethey set the one up at UW {disfmarker}Postdoc F: Grad B: that 's not on our side , that 's on the U - dub {comment} side .Professor A: Oh .Grad B: And so U -UW set it up as a moderated list .Postdoc F: Yeah .Professor A: Oh , OK .Grad B: And , I have no idea whether it actually ever goes to anyone so you might justwanna mail to MariProfessor A: No {disfmarker} no , th I got {disfmarker} I got , uh , little excited notes from Mari and Jeff and so on ,Grad B: and{disfmarker}Professor A: so it 's {disfmarker}Grad B: OK , good .Professor A: Yeah .Grad B: So the moderator actually did repost it .Professor A: Yeah .Grad B:Cuz I had sent one earlier {disfmarker} Actually the same thing happened to me {disfmarker} I had sent one earlier . The message says , " You 'll be informed "and then I was never informed but I got replies from people indicating that they had gotten it , so .Professor A: Right .Grad B: It 's just to prevent spam.Professor A: I see . Yeah so O {disfmarker} OK . Well , anyway , I guess {disfmarker} everybody here {disfmarker} Are y are {disfmarker} you are on that list ,


Project Manager: Okay . Everybody ready ?Marketing: Okay .Industrial Designer: Yeah .Project Manager: Uh I think the first thing we do is introduceourselvesMarketing: I think so .Project Manager: and everybody's name and what your function is ?Marketing: Yeah , that's a good plan .Project Manager: Somaybe we start with you ?User Interface: Okay . Yeah , my name is Francina . And I'm uh an user interface {disfmarker} my role is uh {disfmarker} the mainresponsibility is user interface .Project Manager: Mm-hmm .User Interface: And my role is to design uh a television remote control .Project Manager: Mm-hmm .Okay .Marketing: And I'm a marketing person . I wanna figure out how to sell them .Project Manager: Mm-hmm . And your name is ?Marketing: My name isEileen .Project Manager: Okay .Industrial Designer: Yeah . Uh I'm Jeanne-Oui . Um uh my role is industrial designer and my responsibilities are uh uh um dealwith the {vocalsound} technical-functional designs and specifications of user interface and dealing with user interface design .Project Manager: Very good . Andas you already know I am Betty . I am the project manager for today . So why don't we look at the presentation {vocalsound} to see what we really are supposedto do . {vocalsound} Um .Marketing: Okay .Project Manager: {vocalsound} Yes y opening , acquaintance , tool training {disfmarker} well , the tools are , I think, we already {disfmarker} I guess the tool is really our {disfmarker} the computer , as far as I can see .Marketing: Mm-hmm .Project Manager: Uh we get inseach of us will get instructions and we'll take it from there . Project plan , that falls under the same heading pretty much . Um , I don't think we have any greatdiscussion at this point .Marketing: No .Project Manager: Um . Here is what this thing should be . This thing we are gonna um uh design is a new remote control .Uh should be original {vocalsound} , trendy , and , of course , user friendly .Marketing: Mm-hmm . {vocalsound} {vocalsound}Project Manager: So maybe youwanna make some notes of that .Marketing: Okay .Project Manager: Okay ?Marketing: Mm-hmm .Project Manager: All right . {vocalsound} Here is what thefunctional design is supposed to achieve . Um . That is it's gonna be individual work and then at the meeting we'll discuss what uh we have come up with . Thesame goes for the conceptual design , there will be individual work whic and then discussion afterwards . Detailed design , same thing basically .Marketing: Mm'kay so {disfmarker} Three different types of design that we're gonna be concerned with okay .Project Manager: Mm-hmm . Mm-hmm .Marketing: Functional ,conception and detailed .Project Manager: I can't write with this thing . {vocalsound}Marketing: {vocalsound} Maybe we should redesign it . {vocalsound}ProjectManager: {vocalsound} Yes . {vocalsound}Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}Marketing: After we've finished the remote control we'll get to that .ProjectManager: {vocalsound} Yeah , okay . All right ? Then , tool training try out the white board , participant can draw their favourite animal . Does anybody want togo and see how the white board works ? So that in case we have to , in the next meeting , present something on the white board . You wanna go Eileen and{disfmarker}Marketing: Okay , I'll see what I can do .Project Manager: Whether you {disfmarker} without hanging yourself . {vocalsound}Marketing: See if I rSee if I remember how to draw a kitty cat or a rabbit or something . {vocalsound}User Interface: {vocalsound}Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}Marketing:{vocalsound}Project Manager: And remember you have to press so it works .Marketing: So that it will record okay .Project Manager: Mm-hmm .Marketing: Umuh um traditional kitty cat .Project Manager: {vocalsound} Fat , a fat cat . {vocalsound}User Interface: {vocalsound}Marketing: {vocalsound} I've a very fat cat.Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} {vocalsound}Project Manager: {vocalsound}Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}Marketing: {vocalsound} And it likes to sit likethat .Project Manager: Okay .Marketing: Okay .Project Manager: And you're Francine , right ? Would you like s like just to see um how it feels , so that you have alittle idea ?User Interface: Yes , I'm Francina . Yes , sure . {vocalsound}Project Manager: In {disfmarker}Marketing: Am I supposed to wipe off that or{disfmarker}Project Manager: No , no . No , that's okay .User Interface: No , Okay .Marketing: okay .Project Manager: I don't know , we'll get to that later.Marketing: Okay .User Interface: What should I draw ? {vocalsound}Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} {vocalsound} Snake .User Interface: I'm going to draw asnake . {vocalsound}Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}Project Manager: {vocalsound} Okay .User Interface: How does it look like ? {vocalsound}IndustrialDesigner: {vocalsound}Marketing: Uh , okay .Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}Project Manager: {vocalsound} Okay .Marketing: I hope the kitty cat is hungry'cause I don't like snakes . {vocalsound}Project Manager: {vocalsound}User Interface: {vocalsound}Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} {vocalsound}ProjectManager: Here's the project finance uh which , of course , we all have to think about when we design this thing . Um selling price is supposed to be twenty fiveEuro . Uh profit aim for the company is fifty million Euro ,Marketing: Mm-hmm . {vocalsound}Project Manager: the market range unlimited meaninginternationalMarketing: Okay .Project Manager: and the production cost should not exceed {disfmarker} hopefully should be less than twelve fifty Euro.Marketing: Mm 'kay that should keep everybody on their toes and challenged .Project Manager: Mm-hmm .Marketing: Profit . Um is fifty mm .Project Manager:So these are all things , of course , to remember with the budget and when you design {vocalsound} to materials , cost , etcetera . Now , uh the discussion Iguess is um does anyone of you have experience with remote control ?Marketing: Oops .Project Manager: I exp I s 'cause we we use 'em {disfmarker} we use'em , right , everyday .Industrial Designer: Yeah , of course , using remote control . Yeah .User Interface: Yes .Project Manager: And um now having used aremote control for years does anybody already have like an idea like things you didn't like with it , things you would like to change , things you would like toimprove with this thing ye any first ideas ? Would you like it to be smaller , bigger ,Industrial Designer: Uh .Project Manager: have more have more buttons on itor maybe clearly {disfmarker} better marked buttons , you know , things like that ?User Interface: Yeah , I {disfmarker}Industrial Designer: Yeah .UserInterface: Yes , I I feel that all the remote should be very compact .Industrial Designer: Yeah .Project Manager: Small , right . Mm-hmm .User Interface: Yeah ,those which we get here nowadays it's very long .Project Manager: Mm-hmm .User Interface: And um and it should have multi-purpose . Like uh the remotecontrol which we use for T_V_ , it shou uh it should be used f uh for some other purpose also , like controlling the uh temperature inside the house or forair-conditioners , or for heating system .Project Manager: Mm-hmm .Industrial Designer: Audio player . Oh . Okay .Project Manager: So it should be amulti-functional uh gadget that would um control all your household uh uh machines basically .User Interface: Yes , exactly Yes .Industrial Designer: Hmm .UserInterface: Yes .Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Divides us {disfmarker}User Interface: Yeah . Exactly .Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Yeah . Yeah.Marketing: {vocalsound} At um twelve fifty Euros per {disfmarker} {vocalsound}User Interface: {vocalsound}Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}ProjectManager: Well .Marketing: Well who knows if we get a really good designer maybe we can do that .Industrial Designer: Yeah .Marketing: {vocalsound} Wecertainly can try to {disfmarker} I agree with her that to market something successfully it should do some more things .Project Manager: It should be somethingnew {disfmarker} it should be s it it should do something different than than just what we have .Marketing: That's right .Project Manager: Now , of course , theother thing to think there is maybe the design .User Interface: Yeah .Industrial Designer: Yeah , of course .User Interface: Yeah , design should be , yeah{disfmarker} it should be different . All the {disfmarker} almost all the remotes {disfmarker}Project Manager: Like trendy no like f for earlier we saw maybe itshould be something trendy you know . Maybe it should {disfmarker} different colours or materials or you know .User Interface: Yes , exactly .IndustrialDesigner: Yeah , maybe ten {disfmarker} I do yeah , coloursUser Interface: Are different shapes .Industrial Designer: and al shapes also . Yeah .User Interface:Yes .Project Manager: Um so yeah shapes right , you know , like kidney shape feels better in your hand or something , you know .User Interface: Yes .IndustrialDesigner: Yeah of course yeah .Marketing: Yeah okay , friendly shape , that would help .Project Manager: Yeah .Marketing: I think another thing that would helpis um if it beeps when you clap ,Project Manager: Yes .Marketing: because I think one of the big things that happens is people lose them . They can't find it.Project Manager: {vocalsound} That is true ,User Interface: {vocalsound}Project Manager: because they put a newspaper or they put it behind a plant or , weyou know , whatever .Marketing: {vocalsound}Industrial Designer: Yeah . {vocalsound}Project Manager: And and they {disfmarker} suddenly the phone ringsand they want to turn the T_V_ off and they say , where the hell is my {vocalsound} my remote control yeah ?Marketing: Mm-hmm .Industrial Designer:{vocalsound}Project Manager: Well or yeah or if it's really , if it's really in a dark spot that it gives out a a sound or a signal .Marketing: So some {disfmarker}{vocalsound}Industrial Designer: Yeah , some beep or something like that ,Project Manager: Yeah . Mm-hmm .User Interface: Or a bMarketing: Uh so , so it'sreally the beep or , or a light should blink .Industrial Designer: so that we can go {disfmarker}Project Manager: So if lost {disfmarker} If lost uh signal with bthrow signal , you know .User Interface: Should haIndustrial Designer: Yeah .User Interface: A fluorescent signal , yeah .Marketing: Mm 'kay .Industrial Designer:Yeah , maybe it should have a light so that we can , we can just recognise where it is .Project Manager: Exactly , I mean just {vocalsound} that's what I'm saying.Industrial Designer: Yeah , yeah . May not be beep .Project Manager: I'm just saying throw signal meaning just whether it's a beep or whether a light or{disfmarker}Industrial Designer: Beep or uh it's a light , maybe it's a light .Marketing: And do you think a good c c um clue for that is that it would respond to aclap or it would respond to your voice or it would respond {disfmarker} what what should you have to do to make it beep or blink ?Project Manager: Okay , my{disfmarker} my idea is maybe that the minute it's really hidden , in in other words if it's like in a dark spot , uh meaning you know like a newspaper is on top , asweater is on top or it it's behind a plant , at that moment it's it's like , it's like um , what you call it {disfmarker} a light s sensors , you know ?Marketing:


Project Manager: Uh fourth meeting . {vocalsound}User Interface: We have to do what ?Project Manager: Some extra deciding .Industrial Designer:{vocalsound} W what ? Alri alright . We'll see .Project Manager: {vocalsound} Well {disfmarker}User Interface: Oh .Project Manager: {gap} I'll show you thenotes again . Very interesting .Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}Project Manager: Well you'll you two will uh present us your prototype .Industrial Designer: Yeah.Project Manager: Then um {disfmarker} I guess that's your bit ? I I didn't s see anything about it ,Marketing: Yeah .Project Manager: so {vocalsound} I alreadyuh thought you uh you were {gap} to do that .Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}Project Manager: So the you're uh {gap} .Marketing: {vocalsound}ProjectManager: I'll show you how we're going to do with financing this uh design .User Interface: Mm .Industrial Designer: Yeah , that's important too . Yeah .{vocalsound}Project Manager: And then we'll evaluate , after after we have redesigned it .User Interface: {vocalsound} Bit late . {vocalsound}Project Manager:Because uh well we'll see about the costs . Um we'll uh evaluate our p our uh production and then uh we can close .Industrial Designer: Alright .Project Manager:Well the finance uh we'll do later , so um firstly uh {vocalsound} I'll show you the notes . {vocalsound} I don't think it's very interesting . {vocalsound}UserInterface: I think it is .Project Manager: Oh nei . Uh no . {vocalsound} Alright . This is copy paste . So {disfmarker}Industrial Designer: From me of course , yeah.Project Manager: Of course . You had some very strange layout .Industrial Designer: Well from us all , yeah , from all of us . Yeah . {vocalsound} It's a nicechorus , yeah .Project Manager: {vocalsound} Well um {disfmarker}User Interface: {vocalsound}Marketing: {vocalsound}Project Manager: We ge we wentthrough the agenda ,Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}Project Manager: and well we had some uh some presentations from you three . And uh I summarisedwhat you said to us . So uh I don't think it's very interesting and go through it again .Industrial Designer: Repeat it yeah . Alright .Project Manager: So uh{disfmarker} This is what we decided . It's also copy paste from what we made together . So we still know that .Marketing: Okay .Project Manager: And then uhwe can we can uh use the time better . Well uh next you two will uh present uh the pot prototype for us .Industrial Designer: Alright , we both uh will ?ProjectManager: Yeah .Industrial Designer: Or one of us will ?User Interface: {vocalsound} Alright .Industrial Designer: Uh {disfmarker}User Interface: No you go andI'll uh supplement you .Industrial Designer: Alright . If I make mistakes uh you'll uh {disfmarker}User Interface: {vocalsound} Yeah .Project Manager: Correct .{vocalsound}Industrial Designer: Right . Uh well this is our design .Marketing: {vocalsound}Industrial Designer: Uh it's pretty uh much uh like uh Mike draw uhdrew uh the in the during the last meeting . With uh the different uh perspectives of it . Uh we'll begin uh with the front . We have of course uh the the roundshape uh the round uh basic shape . Um with uh the upper part being the front . Th So there's this part um {vocalsound} which is made of hard plastic , the front. And uh we're we're using different colours . Of course for the launch we use the basic ugly colours ,Project Manager: {vocalsound} Yeah .Industrial Designer:and later we'll put out uh more interesting covers with different patterns and pictures and everything .Project Manager: Mm-hmm .Industrial Designer: Butbasically , different colours , bright colours not black , too dark . Fancy colours . {vocalsound} Um then we have uh the lower part {vocalsound} of the of thedevice . Uh which is of course um part of the back actually , because it's also titanium . You can see it also on the on the on the side view , that only this part isthe front , and the rest of it , the under uh the under side uh of it , yeah , the back side and the lower part of the front is of course titanium made of titanium ,and has the titanium colour of course , the look . Um then we have uh on back on the front uh the logo in the upper corner ,Project Manager: Mm .IndustrialDesigner: uh which is uh made uh which is also part of the back , part of the titanium uh titanium part .User Interface: Yeah , it's a double R_ , but{disfmarker}Industrial Designer: Yeah ?User Interface: It's a double R_ .Industrial Designer: It's a double R_ . Yeah the logo {disfmarker}User Interface: But{vocalsound} it's very difficult to to draw that in {disfmarker} Yeah .Project Manager: Yeah , alright .Industrial Designer: Uh uh it's difficult to draw so small , butit's our double R_ uh logo is in there .Project Manager: Okay . Yeah .Industrial Designer: Um so that's the logo in the upper lef uh right corner . Then we have thebuttons . Uh it's difficult to draw again the little oval or round {disfmarker} I think oval will be better for the for the d for the different uh channel buttons .UserInterface: Oval yeah .Project Manager: Alright .Industrial Designer: So {gap} uh oval , n those are here . And then we have the m The mUser Interface: Channelup and volume ?Industrial Designer: Yeah the the con the the the , yeah , the t volume and the channel controls uh in the middle here . Um um with kind of arrowshapes , which makes it also a bit more exciting than basic round or um uh {vocalsound} uh square buttons . And also here are the two uh buttons we agreed on. We have the Okay button . Oh nei we uh the Okay button's here in the middle of the of the operators , of the channel and uh volume um changers .ProjectManager: Mm-hmm .User Interface: Yeah .Industrial Designer: And then we've here the Menu button and the {disfmarker}Project Manager: Alright .UserInterface: Menu for the L_C_D_ screen .Industrial Designer: And the video button . The {disfmarker}Project Manager: So {disfmarker}Marketing: Mm right .UserInterface: {vocalsound}Industrial Designer: Yeah . And of course this low part , this is the L_C_D_ screen .Project Manager: 'Kay .Industrial Designer: Uh this iswhat we made of it . You can make uh suggestions uh if you want .Project Manager: Well if I look at it , the side the side view {disfmarker}User Interface: Well ,at the back {disfmarker} {vocalsound}Industrial Designer: Maybe we maybe we should finish first uh our talkUser Interface: Yeah .Industrial Designer: and thenyou can add suggestions .Project Manager: Oh yeah alright . Yeah {gap} .Industrial Designer: Maybe I I don't want to {disfmarker} {vocalsound} I don't want tosuppress you but n I'll uh finish this uh quick .Project Manager: {gap}Industrial Designer: Um okay I've had everything I guess on the front ?User Interface: Nothe back . With the logo and our uh l uh {disfmarker}Industrial Designer: Yeah the back . Yeah . {vocalsound} We thought about {disfmarker} Yeah , uh theback is of course totally titanium . {vocalsound} And we thought about the logo big in the middle .Project Manager: Mm-hmm .Industrial Designer: Just so againthe double R_ . We have then the logo on front and on the back .Marketing: Mm-hmm .Industrial Designer: Maybe that's too muchProject Manager: Okay.Industrial Designer: but you have to say uh say that if you think that way .User Interface: No I don't think {disfmarker} And the {disfmarker}IndustrialDesigner: And the company slogan , we thought in a kind of arc shape uh above the logo .Project Manager: Yeah .Marketing: Yeah .Industrial Designer: That'sbasically what we were thinking about ,Project Manager: {vocalsound} Okay .Industrial Designer: and {disfmarker}Project Manager: WUser Interface: And aboutthe side view um {disfmarker} This the front won't be as thick ,Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}User Interface: but again th the the drawing technique makes itvery difficult to to really uh {disfmarker}Project Manager: Well I see , but {disfmarker}Industrial Designer: Oh and uh before I forget . Yeah the the voice , ofcourse ,Project Manager: Well . Yeah I see it .Industrial Designer: the voice recorder is uh at the bottom .Project Manager: Yes .Industrial Designer: And you canrecord it uh using , yeah , the the the back of the f w device .Marketing: {vocalsound}Project Manager: When I look at uh when I look at this side view , I think wwhen I have that in my hand , it's terrible .User Interface: Well , it won't be visible . Mm ?Project Manager: If if you look if if this this is thick , and this is thin , thth then it that it lies over your hands . But {disfmarker}Industrial Designer: Why ? {vocalsound} Well it fits uh it it it it fits the hand , {vocalsound}UserInterface: Yeah .Industrial Designer: mean uh the the the the {disfmarker}Project Manager: Well what what what I what I agree is that when uh when um youhave such of uh an arc in the middle , so that the the a the ends and the fronts is a bit thicker , so th then it falls over your hands .Marketing: Yeah , I agree .UserInterface: {gap} If y {vocalsound} If you handle a remote , you you usually don't have your hand straight like this .Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} In themiddle in the {disfmarker}User Interface: You you have it a bit uh {disfmarker} Yeah .Marketing: It depends on the size . If it's kinda small , this is is great . Butif it's it's larger , then you want to grab it .Project Manager: And how large is it ?User Interface: Yeah .Marketing: Yeah , that's the question .Industrial Designer:That's the question .Project Manager: {vocalsound}User Interface: {vocalsound}Industrial Designer: Uh well {disfmarker} Yeah . H What do you suggest I meanwe do ? {gap} This was Mike's prototype ,Project Manager: Well uh {disfmarker}Marketing: {vocalsound}Industrial Designer: and y you seemed to agreed on it.Project Manager: Well the sides I haven't seen yet , uh {gap} ?Industrial Designer: But now you have a totally different {gap} .User Interface: Well , they laythere all the time .Industrial Designer: The size ? Yeah well the size doesn't really matter w I mean {disfmarker}Project Manager: They the the the the the sideview ,Industrial Designer: Side ? Uh oh the side ?Project Manager: we didn't uh {disfmarker}Industrial Designer: W we we he drew the s the side ,User Interface:Yeah yeah .Industrial Designer: but you d you weren't paying attention as usual .Project Manager: {vocalsound}User Interface: {vocalsound}Industrial Designer:Well any case , we'll discuss it now . Uh I think uh this is a pretty good uh good idea {gap} .Marketing: Yeah , I agree with the L_C_D_ screen . You have it inyour palm like this , and you can watch uh watch the screen . And if you have it li in the middle , your hand might be over it .Project Manager: Yeah .UserInterface: {vocalsound}Industrial Designer: But you you hold it like this .User Interface: Yeah you you don't you don't grab it ,Industrial Designer: You're notholding it like this or something .User Interface: you you {disfmarker} {vocalsound}Industrial Designer: You , yeah , y How do you call it ? Yeah .ProjectManager: {vocalsound}Industrial Designer: Well y y y you don't have it like this .Project Manager: No no no .Industrial Designer: You have it more like this .UserInterface: {vocalsound}Industrial Designer: {gap} You you you're using buttons this way , or if you're right-handed , this way .Marketing: Like you're holdingyour telephone .Project Manager: Yep .User Interface: Yeah .Industrial Designer: So you {disfmarker} Yeah . So {disfmarker}Marketing: Because if you have a


Project Manager: Okay . So , now um , {vocalsound} last time . Can you uh {vocalsound} push the button ? {vocalsound} One time please . So {disfmarker}{vocalsound} I'm still the secretary . Now uh , I ask you to presentate the prototype . One of your {disfmarker} you two .User Interface: {vocalsound}IndustrialDesigner: I don't care . {vocalsound}User Interface: Oh this , you mean ?Project Manager: Yes . The prototype .Industrial Designer: Huh ?User Interface: Yes ,well uh this is it . {vocalsound}Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}Marketing: {vocalsound} This is it .Project Manager: Well , thank you . Uh , now{disfmarker}User Interface: It's uh it's uh it's yellow . And uh , this is rubber . And and and this too . TheProject Manager: {vocalsound}User Interface: the sides.Project Manager: Yes .User Interface: And the rest is hard plastic . And uh {disfmarker} We uh we had some uh {vocalsound} {disfmarker} We had a new idea{vocalsound} that that this can uh can be uh uh turned inside .Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}User Interface: And then it covers the {disfmarker} thesebuttonsProject Manager: Okay .User Interface: until here or something .Marketing: Yes .User Interface: And then you can still use the the power button and themute and the the joystick .Project Manager: Mm-hmm .User Interface: So , you can still operate uh all the things . Because you don't always use the menu . Andthen it can break .Project Manager: Okay . And the buttons ?User Interface: Uh , well uh {disfmarker}Industrial Designer: Big . {vocalsound}User Interface: Bigbuttons . And everything is blue , except the power button . And the mute . Of uh {disfmarker} yeah , and the mute and the the other button . {vocalsound}Yeah . Channel higher channel button .Industrial Designer: {gap} .Marketing: Yeah .Project Manager: And the joystick is for the volume and the channels .UserInterface: Uh , yes . Yes ,Industrial Designer: Yes .User Interface: that's uh {disfmarker} {vocalsound}Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}User Interface: Veryobvious .Project Manager: {vocalsound}Industrial Designer: Up is channel up . Down is channel down . To the right is volume up . To the left is volume down.User Interface: Yeah .Project Manager: Okay , so if joystick and L_C_D_ . What's the R_R_ {gap} d {vocalsound}User Interface: R_R_'s the l the the the thecompany uh logo .Industrial Designer: The R_R_ ?Project Manager: Okay . Very good .Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}Project Manager: So , we have{disfmarker}Marketing: That's on the rub rubber part .User Interface: Uh , yes . Yes . That's about here .Project Manager: So , what they say on the side is putfashion there . Yes . It's good .User Interface: Oh .Project Manager: So , that's it . That's prototype .Marketing: Yeah ?Project Manager: Now , the finance .{vocalsound} We don't know if it's {disfmarker} th it {disfmarker} if it's okay .Marketing: Alright . {vocalsound}Project Manager: So , I'm gonna look.Marketing: Do we {disfmarker}Project Manager: We have {disfmarker}Marketing: Do we change the {disfmarker}Project Manager: Sorry ?Marketing: Do wechange the the order ? Or are we going to uh ev evaluate it first ?Project Manager: Finance is um {disfmarker} Yeah it's {disfmarker} No , first uh {disfmarker}Yes . We have to evaluate the product yet .Marketing: Okay .Project Manager: Sorry .Marketing: That's uh um {disfmarker} {gap} That can be none . Um , wegonna do the evaluation now , together . But I have uh a introduction how it works . So , it will come up . Uh-oh . Okay . Um , yeah . Well , we uh {disfmarker}uh , I have um thinked a few evaluation uh criterias , uh based on um our marketing strategy , on uh the latest trends , on user preferences . Uh , we have aseven point scale from uh true , as well . To false , seven ? And on base of each c uh criteria , we need to um give a rating . We can uh {disfmarker} Well , it looklike this . But we gonna uh do it here , they said . {vocalsound} So , you hope found out how to do it with a Word document . Yeah . Okay , yeah . Yeah . Um ,well uh we have the Word documentProject Manager: {vocalsound}Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}Project Manager: Criteria .Marketing: You {disfmarker}{gap} So we open up that blank here . Um {disfmarker} {vocalsound} Think I can {disfmarker} Uh , what this just an example . So , this not very important .But um , if I can get a number in here . Hmm .Project Manager: No , it's okay .Marketing: Well , uh we can't do that .Industrial Designer: I'll get it .ProjectManager: Oh , it's okay .Marketing: Um , so uh you have to think of it as uh the remote control is techno technologically innovative . Uh , and then we have to uhagree on the rating together . And in the end , we will c uh count an average of all rating . The first uh on each item .Project Manager: What do you think?Marketing: Yeah , I think it's uh {disfmarker} {vocalsound} Uh , well technologically using , it's not uh {disfmarker} it doesn't contain many new features . Onlythe L_C_D_ . So , it {disfmarker} Um , I think I will give it a {disfmarker} yeah , yeah , yeah {gap} , a four . Hmm .Industrial Designer: I think the scroll-buttonis something also uh new . What uh {disfmarker} not anoth uh ,Marketing: {vocalsound}Industrial Designer: not a lot of uh {disfmarker} a lot of uh remotecontrols have . I think technologically I'll give it an seven . Si six six .Project Manager: {gap} Yeah .Industrial Designer: Sorry , six .Marketing: So now i I thinkyou uh see it {gap} um its statement .Industrial Designer: Oh , true or false .Marketing: And you {gap} true or false .Industrial Designer: Oh , uh I'll I'll give ituh a t a two .Marketing: And true is one . So , yeah . Yeah .Project Manager: Two .Industrial Designer: Sorry .Project Manager: You ?User Interface: Three.Project Manager: Me too . So it's a three .Marketing: 'Kay . Um , well {disfmarker} It's a one . {vocalsound} The first item . So , okay the second item . Um , thisproduct is for all sorts of customers .User Interface: Mm {disfmarker}Marketing: Well , it's a statement which uh I disagree with , because we uh really aim uh atat young market and I think the way it looked uh c uh totally in yellow , it's not uh really aimed for all customers . It doesn't look like that .Project Manager: Soit's a {disfmarker}Marketing: That's uh a six .Industrial Designer: Five .User Interface: Mm , four .Project Manager: Yes , it's for the younger g group . So it's uhhalf half of the people .User Interface: Yeah , but it's it's {disfmarker}Project Manager: So I think it's four .User Interface: Yeah . I mean it still has l large buttonsand not m many buttons .Project Manager: No .User Interface: So {disfmarker} I mean , the colours are for young people ,Industrial Designer: Mm-hmm .UserInterface: butProject Manager: Yes . So , I think it's four .User Interface: older {disfmarker}Marketing: {vocalsound}User Interface: Yeah .Industrial Designer:Maybe version uh three point O_ uh {disfmarker} {vocalsound} has other colours . {vocalsound}Marketing: {vocalsound}User Interface: {vocalsound} Yeah .Maybe .Project Manager: Okay . Give it a four .Industrial Designer: Four .Project Manager: Yep .Marketing: Four . Uh , okay . Mm .Project Manager: We put thefashion in electronics .Marketing: That's uh the motto of our company . Yeah , well do we do this with uh this product ? I um {disfmarker} Yeah . I think if we dothis , as it's uh uh c uh it's really orientates on the design . Um , so I would give it a two .Industrial Designer: Me too a two , because only the battery is not uhtechin uh technologically high standard . But the rest of it is . So , I think a two .Project Manager: {vocalsound}User Interface: Yes . Two .Project Manager: Uh , Isay uh a five .Marketing: Two .Project Manager: It's not fashion , it's new . It must be a fashion . But it isn't .Industrial Designer: It {disfmarker} it will be fashion.Project Manager: Yes . It w If it's not a fashion we can put it in it . So , it must be a fashion . I think it's a five .Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}ProjectManager: {vocalsound}Marketing: Uh {disfmarker} {vocalsound} Okay .User Interface: Then make it th three .Marketing: Okay . Yes , I'll think of that too.Project Manager: No . Oh .Industrial Designer: 'Kay . Three is okay .Marketing: Yeah , agree ?Project Manager: I use my feet though . {vocalsound}UserInterface: {vocalsound}Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Oh , we'll wait outside .Marketing: {vocalsound}Project Manager: {vocalsound}Marketing:{vocalsound} A three .Project Manager: Okay .User Interface: {vocalsound}Marketing: Yeah okay .Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}Project Manager:{vocalsound}Marketing: The next element um is the product looks good . Well personally , I do not prefer a um remote control that's fully in yellow . So , I wouldgive this a five .Industrial Designer: I give it a one . {vocalsound}User Interface: {vocalsound}Marketing: {vocalsound}User Interface: {gap} . Yes , a one . Ilike it .Project Manager: Well , I say three . So , counting then is two and a half . {vocalsound}Marketing: We have to do our uh {disfmarker}Industrial Designer:Say two .Marketing: Two or three ?Project Manager: Okay , two .Industrial Designer: Two .Marketing: Two . Okay .Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}ProjectManager: {vocalsound}Marketing: So , well we gonna do the next part . Uh , yep . Uh uh , the next statement . It has not too much buttons . Um , yeah , I I haveuh said is not because uh a low number is better . And in the end we calculate an average . So , um that's why it's a negative in it . Um , well this one of our aimsnot have too much buttons . So , um uh did we uh do that ? Well , uh if we go to {vocalsound} uh this fashion , I {disfmarker} We still have caused uh a lot of uhbuttons for the numbers . But you can you can go for that . And um that way , you don't have a lot of buttons over . So , I would give this a two .IndustrialDesigner: One .Project Manager: {vocalsound} You ?User Interface: One . {vocalsound}Project Manager: Me too . One .Marketing: One . {vocalsound} Um , but{vocalsound} where where is the {gap} ?Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}Project Manager: Next , six . It does not get lost easily .Marketing: So {disfmarker}Yeah , did we implement uh the sound ?Industrial Designer: {vocalsound} Uh {disfmarker} {vocalsound}User Interface: Yes . {vocalsound}Marketing:{vocalsound}Industrial Designer: Just a small thing . {vocalsound}Project Manager: No , we did not . So , but can it get lost if it's such a thing ?User Interface:Yeah , but uh {disfmarker} Yeah .Industrial Designer: Ah . Yellow .Project Manager: I don't think so .Marketing: {vocalsound}Industrial Designer: Looks like apistol .Project Manager: Yes . Not a not a normal shapes . So {disfmarker}Industrial Designer: Uh {disfmarker} It won't get between uh the pillows uh on thecouch .Project Manager: No . It won't get lost .Marketing: Yeah .Project Manager: So {disfmarker}Industrial Designer: Uh {disfmarker}Marketing: It won't.Project Manager: A one ? {vocalsound}User Interface: Yeah .Industrial Designer: Yeah , o one .Project Manager: Okay , a one .Marketing: One .Project Manager:Next .Marketing: Okay , um well we aimed for the younger market .Project Manager: {gap}Marketing: Uh yeah , did we achieve that . I think with the way itlooks and um it is designed , I will give it a two .Project Manager: Yeah me {disfmarker} {gap}Industrial Designer: Yeah . Me too .Project Manager: That was our


Project Manager: {vocalsound} So um nice to see you again . Uh . So , uh . Tod uh for this meeting I will take the notes and do the minutes . Uh so we will seeour three presentations . Um we will start with the uh Manager Expert wi who will talk about uh user re requirements , whats user needs and what it desire forthis devi device .Marketing: Okay , can I have the laptop over here , or ?Project Manager: Yep . Oh , I don't think so . I think you have to come here .Marketing:Okay . Have to get up . {vocalsound}Project Manager: I dunno . I think it should stay .Marketing: Excuse me .Industrial Designer: Yeah , that's it .ProjectManager: {gap}Marketing: {vocalsound} Okay .Project Manager: Should stay in the square here . {vocalsound}Marketing: Okay .Project Manager: Oh , maybe.Marketing: Okay , so basically I'm gonna present some findings of a study we conducted uh into uh what users want in this remote control .Project Manager: Oh, you can put it here . Oh that's okay , it's jusMarketing: Um so first of all we {disfmarker} what we did is we um conducted a an experiment with a hundred testsubjects . Um we put them in a in our um usability laboratory and got them to , you know , um play with remote controls , and also to complete , after they'ddone that , to complete a questionnaire uh to tell us what they like and what they don't like in remote controls . {vocalsound} {vocalsound} So basically um themajor things we found out was that um basically users don't like the look and feel of of most remote controls that are currently on the market . Um they , youknow , seventy five percent of the people we we uh did the experiments on , found that rem remote the remote controls that they'd used in the past were ugly .Completely ugly . Um they they didn't match the operating behaviour of the user , that is , you know , the the way users use remote controls when they'rewatching T_V_ . Um , that the layout of the remote controls didn't match they way that they used it . Um and thirdly they say that w half of the users that we umtested said that they only used ten percent of the buttons that uh are on remote controls . Um so we collect we also some collected some usage statistics uhbased on how these test subjects were using their remote control . And from this we basically came up with the figure that the channel buttons , the channelselection buttons are the most {disfmarker} by far the most used buttons on the remote control . Um and you can see they're used a hundred and sixty eighttimes per hour on average , um , while the user's watching T_V_ .Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}Project Manager: {vocalsound}Marketing: Um the closestbutton that was used , well the cl the button that was used that was closest to the channel button was the teletext button , um which was used fourteen times perhour , followed by the volume button , which was four times per hour , um , all the other , all the other um buttons , such as ch um audio and picture selectionum configuration buttons and things were used , you know , l approx well less than or equal to one times per hour . Um we also asked users um which buttonshad the most importance to them , you know , which which buttons they felt were the most important buttons on on the remote control . And basically they came{disfmarker} they said the channel , volume , and power buttons had the highest relevance to users , um note that only power was very infrequently used , itonly had a b a a fr usage frequency of about one times per hour , but users ranked it as having a very very high relevance . Um and the audio and picture settingshad a very {disfmarker} that well the users thought that um w the audio and picture settings were very uh weren't very important to them um , and they usedthem very infrequently a as well . {vocalsound} So we asked users what what um frustrates them the most about um current remote controls . And fifty percentof the users said that uh what frustrates them is losing the remote control um somewhere in the room and not being able to find it . Um {vocalsound} they alsosaid that it um it takes a lot of time to learn a new remote control , especially when there's many buttons and it's a , you know , a c a a unintuitive interface . Umand then thirdly , they {disfmarker} some users commented on the fact that the the you know the way that you have to hold and press buttons on a remotecontrol ar are bad and um cause u repetitive strain injury . {vocalsound} We also asked some users about some specific features that they'd like to see in the{disfmarker} on the remote control . In particular , do they want an L_C_D_ d display , and secondly , do they think speech recognition uh is a useful feature tohave on a remote control .Project Manager: {vocalsound}Marketing: Um basically our findings are that um amongst a younger age groups uh the answer is umvoverwhelmingly yes . They want these features , they want these high technology features .Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}Marketing: Um for instance , ninetyone percent of pe of people aged between fifteen and twenty five said yes , they want these features . Whereas um {vocalsound} the the trend was as users asusers um became older and older uh they were less likely to want these sort of features in a um in a remote control . So I guess it depends on where we'refocusing our our market . Um and as our company motto is putting fashion in electronics , um I think we're focusing on the younger younger um targetdemographic , and so maybe we should think about adding these sort of high technology features into our remote control .Project Manager: Hmm .Marketing:That's my dic that's my presentation . Thank you .Project Manager: Thank you .Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}User Interface: Okay .Project Manager: So , ummaybe now we can talk about a user interface and uh about the technical function of this device . So uh Pet Peter , can you talk say something about that?Industrial Designer: Well , okay , yeah . Yeah , but the user user interface is responsible .Project Manager: No .User Interface: B you think uh I I'm UserInterface Manager .Project Manager: Ah .Industrial Designer: Okay , so {gap} .Marketing: {vocalsound}Project Manager: {vocalsound} Sorry , I'm {disfmarker}Sorry . Sorry .User Interface: {vocalsound} Okay . Okay .Project Manager: {gap}User Interface: If I could go there with this cable .Industrial Designer: You'rescaring me with L_C_D_ man . And speech recognition in remote unit , it will be very e expensive .Marketing: {vocalsound} Yeah , it's true , but , you know ,they're features that users want ,Industrial Designer: {vocalsound}Marketing: so it's {disfmarker}Industrial Designer: Yeah .Marketing: And our production costof twelve fifty Euros per per unit is fairly high I think ,User Interface: {gap}Industrial Designer: Yeah .Marketing: so I think we can afford to to add these sort offeatures into our remote .Industrial Designer: At least we have couple of months t to work on it so so it will be cheaper finally . {vocalsound}User Interface:{vocalsound} Sh okay . {gap}Marketing: It is true .User Interface: Where's delete button ? Okay . Oh I'm sorry . {vocalsound} {gap}Industrial Designer:{vocalsound}Project Manager: {gap}User Interface: {gap} Okay .Marketing: That's the wrong one , I think .Project Manager: Yeah , it's still Bob Morris .UserInterface: Oh . Presentation three ?Project Manager: {vocalsound} Yeah you should have put yes .Industrial Designer: Because you cancelled it . Yeah .ProjectManager: Click on yes .User Interface: Oh . {vocalsound}Project Manager: {gap} yeah .Industrial Designer: Yep .User Interface: Okay , so here is mypresentation about technical function design . I will talk about different components and s of system and how they react together . Okay , uh , first what is aremote control ? Simply it's a device , as you know , for uh , for sending some commands by some waves to uh another device to to tell different commands uhwith this device . And the main idea we don't use any cable and we can rec react simpler with the device . Uh i it has different blocks , different blocks . Uh first isremote control have sh ha should have some electric circuits uh making interface with uh keyboard and uh r reading uh keyboard and reading the keyboard uhcommands . And then inter then make uh these keyboard commands , uh in interpret these int uh keyboard commands . And then there should be uh anelectronic circuit making uh electronic signals according to these commands and uh finally there is a transmitter which is a cord or a a diode making uh making uhwaves to transmit through the air and uh uh this air this uh wave uh will be received by the by the other device like a television or whatever , to uh r to realise thecommand . Okay , {vocalsound} uh about {disfmarker} what I found about uh different uh these different blocks are uh , usually there are two different methodsuh to {disfmarker} for designing a remote control . They are based on infra-red uh waves or uh uh radio waves .Industrial Designer: You still want me thepresentation .User Interface: There are two different uh uh solutions I mean . This is uh this can be uh uh the the differences the th between different kind ofwaves , infra-red or radio waves . And uh also as uh I understood , and uh I think it was a part of uh Bob , uh uh presentation , people prefer to have uh to haveuh the remote control with less button . So for the electronic part , working and interfacing , with button , we should we should try to t try to design a remotecontrol having uh some some simpler buttons or some rolling buttons to just to just to search between different options , and showing o something on T_V_ andputting less lesser stuff on the uh on the remote control . And uh personal preferences , uh uh uh uh certainly a remote control with {disfmarker} uh working withradio waves is uh preferred because uh you can pr you can take it in any direction and you don't need to tune it any way . And uh uh again , using bigger buttonsand less number of buttons are also preferred , as I see . Okay . That was my presentation .Marketing: Okay . I have a question .User Interface: Uh-huh.Marketing: Do you think radio waves um will interfere with other appliances in the home ?User Interface: Uh , I don't think so , because uh we can make uh weca we can make this wave in a specific frequency . So they can be in a range which is not inter interfering with the {vocalsound} with other devices inside thehome .Marketing: Okay .Project Manager: So can we use any any frequency ?Industrial Designer: Yeah , it should be okay {gap} .Project Manager: We have theright to use any frequency ?User Interface: Uh no but as I know , there is a range for uh for this uh f for for uh for this stuff , for designing this circuit . We can wecan we can tune our uh transmitter to work in this range , and for this range we don't need to ask any permission .Project Manager: Okay . And what happen withuh radio waves when two neighbours have the same {disfmarker} have our remote control , for example ? And so do they have the same frequency , or ?UserInterface: Uh for this I'm not uh I I don't know the solution , but one solution can be something like putting uh p password or something inside the wave , so theonly your T_V_ can understand itProject Manager: Okay . A kind of identification {gap} ,User Interface: Yeah , identification code inside the


Lynne Neagle AM: Good morning, everyone. Welcome to the Children, Young People and Education Committee. We've received apologies for absence from SuzyDavies and there is no substitute. Janet Finch-Saunders is joining us from the Assembly offices in Colwyn Bay via video conference. Can I ask Members if thereare any declarations of interest, please? No. Okay. Item 2, then, this morning is a post-legislative scrutiny session on the Higher Education (Wales) Act 2015. I'mvery pleased to welcome Kirsty Williams AM, Minister for Education, and Huw Morris, who is director of the skills, higher education and lifelong learning group inWelsh Government. Thank you, both, for attending, and thank you for the paper that you provided in advance. I will just start the questioning by asking whetheryou are planning to repeal the 2015 higher education Act, or will it be amended by the post-compulsory education and training Bill?Kirsty Williams AM: Thank youvery much, Chair. I'm very pleased to be with the committee again this morning, although it's in slightly unusual circumstances. As a piece of post-legislativescrutiny, this was a Bill that was taken forward by a different Minister in a different administration, but I think it is really valuable work in the context of thequestion you just set out: what can we learn from the implementation of this piece of legislation as we move forward with our reform journey and with thisGovernment and my proposals to introduce a new commission for tertiary education? There is much, at the moment, that lies within the 2015 Act that we willlook to bring forward into the new legislation, but there are certainly experiences—and I'm sure we'll come on to some of the evidence that has been receivedabout what's worked, what perhaps hasn't worked—that we all want to reflect on and be mindful of as we take forward the new Bill, including the report of thiscommittee as part of it. So, it is our intention that this Bill will be superceded by the new PCETR Bill.Lynne Neagle AM: Okay, thank you. We've got a series ofquestions now from Siân Gwenllian.Sian Gwenllian AM: Good morning. Do you believe that the Act has fulfilled all the Government's objectives? Where are theweaknesses?Kirsty Williams AM: Diolch yn fawr, Siân. As I've said, it's a bit difficult to place myself in the mind of the previous Minister when this legislation wasfirst envisaged and then taken through. You'll be aware that there were four main reasons for the introduction of the Bill: around regulation of institutions inWales; safeguarding the contribution made to public good arising from Welsh Government's financial support for the sector; maintaining a focus on fair access;and preserving and protecting the principle of institutional autonomy. I think the evidence that has been received by the committee to date shows that there aredifferent views about the effectiveness of whether all four strategic aims have been achieved. I think those strategic aims are still really, really important andcertainly will underpin our thought process going forward, but we have to recognise the higher education and research Bill across the border in England, theimplementation of new student support measures in Wales, as well as the report that was done by Ellen Hazelkorn, I think, means it is appropriate that we moveforward with different proposals, not just regulation of the HE sector but the post-compulsory sector as a whole. We will look to see what we can do to strengthenor whether there is more that we need to do to achieve those four objectives, because I think those four objectives are still very, very relevant. But we have tohave legislation now that is fit for the circumstances we currently find ourselves in and, hopefully, futureproofs us for how we want to see the sector develop inthe future.Sian Gwenllian AM: Do you feel perhaps that the legislation itself hasn't been strong enough, and that you then have had to drive some of theseobjectives through the annual remit letter, rather than through legislation, and that's why the strengthening is required?Kirsty Williams AM: Certainly, I see theremit letter as a really, really important way in which national priorities and the priorities of an elected Government can be clearly stated, communicated to theHigher Education Funding Council for Wales, and then HEFCW use their powers to ensure that that happens. So, certainly, I see the remit letter as being a veryimportant mechanism for ensuring, as I said, that those national priorities are clearly articulated, and then change happens.Sian Gwenllian AM: Has the currentlegislation been framed around institutional autonomy so that it's not possible for institutions to fulfil any national outcomes, and is that going to be an element ofthe new Bill?Kirsty Williams AM: Well, certainly, the 2015 Act contains numerous provisions that protect universities' privileges and autonomy. And that's reallyimportant, and those are principles that I am committed to in any legislation that I bring forward. We'll certainly be looking to see how we can carry thoseprotections into the forthcoming Bill, but, at the same time, we do have to ensure appropriate regulation and accountability of institutions for their public fundingand the privileges that they enjoy. And I think there are a number of ways in which that can happen. We have a very positive working relationship with the HigherEducation Funding Council for Wales, and I am very fortunate to have a very positive working relationship with the sector. The remit letters are a really importantway in which we can lay out those national priorities. I don't think there's anything in the legislation per se that prevents those national priorities being articulatedand being acted upon.Sian Gwenllian AM: I don't think that's what HEFCW has said in their evidence. They've said that the Bill has been framed in a way whereit's not possible for institutions to fulfil any requirements. You're talking about the remit letter; maybe you need to have that discussion there, but, in terms of theBill itself, you can't make them fulfil any national outcomes. Shouldn't there be a discussion looking to move in a direction where there are national outcomesbeing set through legislation, because there is public money going into that?Kirsty Williams AM: Well, I don't know whether we need national outcomes throughlegislation, because those national priorities, potentially, will change over time. What is really important, and what we will be seeking to do in the new legislation,is look to move to a system of outcome agreements. So, there is a very clear expectation that the commission will have, in regulating the sector, andco-ordinating and funding the sector, to create a system of outcome agreements, where those outputs will reflect national priorities, and that's one of the thingsthat we've consulted on, and will look to take forward in the new legislation.Sian Gwenllian AM: Okay. That's clear enough. What about private providers? TheAct, or the Act as it stands, makes it a requirement for a regulated institution to be a charity, and that means it's not possible to regulate alternative privateproviders under the Act, even though they can provide higher education in Wales. What is your view on this, and will the new legislation continue with therequirement of being a charity?Kirsty Williams AM: Okay. So, I think, first of all, it's important to make the distinction between the scale of private providers, andwhat could be termed as 'unregulated providers' in the Welsh system, as opposed to the English system. And I think that's a really important distinction to make.So, currently, under the current legislation, unregulated providers can only access Welsh Government student support if they're designated on a case-by-casebasis. So, we do have a circumstance where—and a process in place, to manage this. So, we have a specific designation policy, which is operated on our behalf byHEFCW. Only six organisations were designated on a case-by-case basis in the 2018-19 academic year, so the scale here is small. Three of those were furthereducation colleges. So, when we talk about a private provider, perhaps people would have a view of a private university, but, actually, three of those were FEcolleges, which we would all be familiar with. And the three private providers were the Centre for Alternative Technology, the training arm of the Church in Walesand the Newport and District Group Training Association. All three of those are actual charities. So, in order for their courses to be specifically designated, thethree crucial questions that those providers have to answer are: quality—is what they’re providing to students of a good quality; the financial viability of theinstitution, again, to try to protect the interests of the students who may find themselves embarking on a course in an institution that isn’t viable; as well as theircontribution to private—sorry, not to private good—public good. And we are considering how that part of the sector will be regulated in the forthcominglegislation. But, Huw, I don't know if there's anything else to add?Huw Morris: Well, just to say that there are a very small number of private providers, as theMinister has outlined, and, in comparison with England, where I think the last figures said that there were between 300 and 400 private providers in England, youget a sense of the differences that exist there. And, if you look at what happened over recent years, it has been those small private providers across the UK whohave been most financially challenged and a number of them have stopped their operations, with consequences for the students. So, we’ve been keen to putstudents at the front of things to make sure that the institutions that they’re enrolling with are strong and have good quality.Sian Gwenllian AM: Okay. So, whatyou're saying is that you will continue with a charitable status, or not—Kirsty Williams AM: At this stage—Sian Gwenllian AM: —or are you still thinking aboutit?Kirsty Williams AM: Well, at this stage, I think the charitable status will continue to be an important part of what we will take forward.Sian Gwenllian AM: Justturning finally to part-time fees and postgraduate fees, do you have an intention to regulate this part in the new legislation?Kirsty Williams AM: I have to say that,at present, we've not identified an urgent reason to designate these courses as qualifying courses for the purposes of a fee limit. And there are a number ofreasons for that. Actually, the current Act—the 2015 Act—does not permit the fee regulation of postgraduate courses, other than PGCE courses for IT purposes. Inthe case of part-time courses, I'm currently content that fee levels are not exceeding the amount of student support made available by the Welsh Government.So, I think we are, at this moment, relaxed about that, and there are some difficulties around deciding and introducing fee limits on postgraduate courses. I thinkwhat's really important to me is the success at the moment of attracting people to postgraduate and part-time study in Wales, as a result of our reforms tostudent finance. But, clearly, we'll need to keep that under review. But, at this current moment, the Act precludes fee regulation in some areas and there's not apressing policy need that we've identified to date.Lynne Neagle AM: Okay. Thank you. Okay, we're going to move on now to some questions about the level ofambition in the higher education Act and any lessons for the PCET Bill, from Janet Finch-Saunders.Janet Finch-Saunders AM: Thank you. To what extent has the