meeting_transcript,summary
"Sian Gwenllian AM: Thank you very much I would like to start just by looking in general at how the law currently stands and how do you think the law as it currently stands today and specifically in terms of reasonable punishment—how does that protect children 
Barry Hughes: Sorry can I just be clear ? How does the law as it presently stands protect children ? We have a range of offences created by the criminal law going back to the Offences Against the Person Act 1861 in the middle of the century before last which provide for offences of assault against a variety of people including in particular Acts such as the Children and Young Persons Act 1933 which provides for offences that are specific to children But the more general criminal legislation such as the Offences Against the Person Act does provide specifically for adults and children alike not to be subject to physical assault In respect of children in particular you will be aware that we have section 58 of the Children Act 2004 which does make it a defence for a person accused of assaulting a child to argue that it was a case where they were acting only so as to impose reasonable punishment upon the child That is a defence that is available for assault upon a child By way of contrast it is not available for an offence involving an adult In that regard it could be argued that children have fewer rights than adults 
Sian Gwenllian AM: Well a review was undertaken by the Government back in 2007 that stated that retaining the law in its current form—that that would be the best thing to do because there is no evidence that it is not working satisfactorily You are suggesting perhaps towards the end of your answer that there could be some change that is happened since 2007 
Barry Hughes: I think the law should reflect contemporary society and the law is evolutionary in nature and should be evolutionary in nature And just as if we go back 50 years there are types of behaviour that we might all have contemplated back then as being socially acceptable many of those types of behaviour are not now and the law has changed to reflect that We do not need to go back a very long way to find for example that there was no such offence as raping ones married wife and the law has changed to reflect the fact that that is simply not acceptable And from what I have seen of the research and I think back to the 2007 review to which you have just referred there is evidence within that review already that opinions are changing And I have seen research more current than that that suggests that young people find it less acceptable to use reasonable punishment in chastising a child than do people of an older generation Of course as we move forward in time the people who are young now are going to be the older adults of the future So one would hope that the law will change to reflect the way in which people behave within society 
Sian Gwenllian AM: thank you We have heard evidence as a committee that this proposed law would provide a much clearer legal framework—that is to take out this reasonable punishment defence that then would make things much clearer for parents and professionals Does the CPS have a view on that ? 
Barry Hughes: I think it will make things clearer I am not sure it will make them much clearer because if we get into some of the— It may be helpful to look at some examples at some stage And when it comes to prosecuting it is often the case that things are not just black and white there are multiple shades of grey in between We know that the Children Act did introduce a degree of clarity in that it removed the defence of reasonable chastisement for offences of causing actual bodily harm causing grievous bodily harm causing grievous bodily harm with intent and various incidents of child cruelty under the Children and Young Persons Act In that sense matters were clarified because up until that point it was not entirely clear There were a series of Court of Appeal cases that sought to clarify the law but that was at a time at the end of the 1990s the start of the 2000s when we had the European convention on human rights and we had a quickly developing body of case law And the Children Act was brought in to reflect the direction that the case law was moving in A decision was clearly made back then in the early 2000s not to include common assault in the same category as actual bodily harm grievous bodily harm et cetera So there was a decision made back then that it was appropriate to do that As we wind forward some 15 years I have seen the research that suggests that some people see that the present legislation and the way in which section 58 applies to reasonable chastisement for common assault of children—some people have interpreted that as saying that smacking is acceptable I do not think that it is what it says but there is a degree of confusion around that And the reason why I say it is not as simple as that is going back to my words a couple of minutes ago it is rarely a case of being black and white there are these degrees of grey And removing that defence does make life clearer 
Sian Gwenllian AM: What are the areas of grey that you refer to ? Can you give a few examples ? 
Barry Hughes: If you take an example—so one of the examples that I have heard discussed has been a child—a young child let us say a fiveyearold child by the side of a road—who darts to go out in the path of moving traffic The parent grabs hold of the child and pulls them back Now technically taking hold of the child at that point is an assault because it is an unwanted imposition of physical force But noones going to say that is anything like an assault that should come to the criminal courts Of course that would be utter nonsense There is no hostility it is simply taking hold of a child to protect them At that point the parent then seeks to admonish the child tells them off and smacks the child on the legs Now that would probably be seen under the present law as reasonable chastisement Probably But so much depends upon the circumstances whether this is something that happens frequently with the child the size of the child the parent the force of the slap the way in which it is imposed So that I would say sits at one end of the spectrum As we move towards the other end of the spectrum we might have repeated smacking shouting maybe hitting the child over the head as well So there is a spectrum of offending Towards one end of the spectrum we move much closer towards something that would be criminal in nature There will be a point at which it crosses the threshold from something that needs to be reported to the police and the police would take some form of action and then as we move through the tiers it will reach a stage where the police think this is a case that should be prosecuted and they would bring it to the Crown Prosecution Service for a charging decision We would then decide the most appropriate means of dealing with it And the absolute other end of the spectrum here is one where we decide it is an offence that we think is so serious that it should be charged and brought before a criminal court That would be very much towards the serious end of the spectrum of the type of behaviour that I have just described to you Does that help to illustrate that at one end it is relatively white and the other end it is relatively black but in the middle we have the shades of grey ? 
Sian Gwenllian AM: But that would mean that there could be more prosecutions at the softer end Because if you are removing this—we will probably come on to that 
Barry Hughes: Shall I address that in terms— ? So you are probably aware but forgive me if I just explain quickly anyway when we approach a file of material evidence submitted by the police we apply the code for Crown prosecutors which has a twostage test The first stage is whether there is sufficient evidence to provide a realistic prospect of conviction and the second stage is— And you only get to the second stage if the first stage is satisfied If there is not enough evidence we do not go on to consider whether it is in the public interest because we would not put an offence before the courts if we did not think there was a realistic prospect of conviction So we only get on to the public interest stage once the evidential stage is satisfied So to return to the point if we have an offence where let us say there is a light smack at the time the police apply the same code before they bring a case to us We do not always agree with the police generally we do but we do not always agree It is a matter for them whether they refer a matter to the Crown Prosecution Service So if a police officer takes witness statements in relation to that case—the light smacking on the leg—at present it is unlikely that would come to the CPS because they would look at it and say Reasonable chastisement provides for a defence If that defence is removed then obviously there is a greater possibility that it would be referred to the CPS I would like to think—and I think this is what will probably happen in practice—that the police would take a view that the evidential test may have been satisfied because the defence had been removed but it would not be in the public interest to prosecute It may be that the police decide that it is—it may have been two smacks three smacks so it moves towards the end of the spectrum that would suggest that matters are becoming rather more serious So it may be referred to the CPS for a charging decision We would then apply independently the same test and we would probably conclude that the evidential stage was met in that instance because the defence no longer exists which takes us on to considering the public interest In the circumstances that I have described every case is going to be unique on its own facts but in the circumstances that I have described if it is just a light smack and it is a oneoff and there is no history of this it would probably be the sort of offence we would decide it would not be in the public interest to prosecute 
Sian Gwenllian AM: But is not it creating a new grey area in terms of the police now having to decide whether repeated smacking is in the public interest to at least refer it to you to decide about that ? Do you know what I am saying ? 
Barry Hughes: If this Bill goes through then it will remove a defence which will make it likely that the police will give this more consideration for referral to the CPS than beforehand but it does not necessarily mean they will refer it because it will depend on the facts of each individual case","Barry Hughes first stated that children had fewer rights than adults and therefore the law should be enforced to defend physical assault. As such social behavior was not available now, the law should change to reflect that. The discussion then turned to talk about the legal framework and its prosecution."
"Sian Gwenllian AM: Thank you very much I would like to start just by looking in general at how the law currently stands and how do you think the law as it currently stands today and specifically in terms of reasonable punishment—how does that protect children 
Barry Hughes: Sorry can I just be clear ? How does the law as it presently stands protect children ? We have a range of offences created by the criminal law going back to the Offences Against the Person Act 1861 in the middle of the century before last which provide for offences of assault against a variety of people including in particular Acts such as the Children and Young Persons Act 1933 which provides for offences that are specific to children But the more general criminal legislation such as the Offences Against the Person Act does provide specifically for adults and children alike not to be subject to physical assault In respect of children in particular you will be aware that we have section 58 of the Children Act 2004 which does make it a defence for a person accused of assaulting a child to argue that it was a case where they were acting only so as to impose reasonable punishment upon the child That is a defence that is available for assault upon a child By way of contrast it is not available for an offence involving an adult In that regard it could be argued that children have fewer rights than adults","Barry thought that the legal framework would make things clearer for parents and professionals. But when it came to prosecuting, there was a degree of confusion and some cases were in the grey areas."
"Sian Gwenllian AM: But that would mean that there could be more prosecutions at the softer end Because if you are removing this—we will probably come on to that 
Barry Hughes: Shall I address that in terms— ? So you are probably aware but forgive me if I just explain quickly anyway when we approach a file of material evidence submitted by the police we apply the code for Crown prosecutors which has a twostage test The first stage is whether there is sufficient evidence to provide a realistic prospect of conviction and the second stage is— And you only get to the second stage if the first stage is satisfied If there is not enough evidence we do not go on to consider whether it is in the public interest because we would not put an offence before the courts if we did not think there was a realistic prospect of conviction So we only get on to the public interest stage once the evidential stage is satisfied So to return to the point if we have an offence where let us say there is a light smack at the time the police apply the same code before they bring a case to us We do not always agree with the police generally we do but we do not always agree It is a matter for them whether they refer a matter to the Crown Prosecution Service So if a police officer takes witness statements in relation to that case—the light smacking on the leg—at present it is unlikely that would come to the CPS because they would look at it and say Reasonable chastisement provides for a defence If that defence is removed then obviously there is a greater possibility that it would be referred to the CPS I would like to think—and I think this is what will probably happen in practice—that the police would take a view that the evidential test may have been satisfied because the defence had been removed but it would not be in the public interest to prosecute It may be that the police decide that it is—it may have been two smacks three smacks so it moves towards the end of the spectrum that would suggest that matters are becoming rather more serious So it may be referred to the CPS for a charging decision We would then apply independently the same test and we would probably conclude that the evidential stage was met in that instance because the defence no longer exists which takes us on to considering the public interest In the circumstances that I have described every case is going to be unique on its own facts but in the circumstances that I have described if it is just a light smack and it is a oneoff and there is no history of this it would probably be the sort of offence we would decide it would not be in the public interest to prosecute","The first stage was to check whether there was sufficient evidence submitted by the police to provide a realistic prospect of conviction. Only if the first stage was satisfied, the second stage came to be considered, which was in the public interest."
"Lynne Neagle AM: We have got some questions now on the divergence between the law in England and Wales from Dawn Bowden 
Dawn Bowden AM: Thank you Chair Hello The Assembly does not have any legislative competence to impose duties on the CPS as you know in the absence of the Secretary of States consent What are the implications for implementing the Bill in Wales for that ? 
Barry Hughes: Can I give you two examples ? One of the implications is this—and it is fairly obvious but it is still worth stressing—that the removal of the defence would mean that there would be more cases that would pass the evidential stage in Wales than there would be in England because the defence would still apply there That therefore raises issues in particular in terms of awareness of criminal offending for people from England who travel to Wales because it is fairly evident that there would be a defence available in England that is not available in Wales One of the examples that we talked about was if you consider a family on its way from England into Wales travelling to Barry Island for a holiday and troublesome children in the back of the car harsh words and a small smack on the leg delivered while they are on the M4 going past Bristol would be subject to a defence By the time we come over to this side of the water there would be no such defence for the same journey for the same act And so there are issues there in terms of the awareness of members of the public The second example that I will give you is that we already have within the United Kingdom a certain degree of divergence of laws and the example I will give to you is this : drink driving In England and Wales the limit for having micrograms of alcohol in your breath is 35 µg in 100 ml of breath Across the border in Scotland it drops to 22 µg So the same act— As you drive into Scotland you are probably to drive if you have got 34 µg by the time you get into Scotland you will not be And the consequences for you are significant because of course it is an offence in Scotland and not an offence in England but the punishment namely disqualification applies everywhere in the United Kingdom So we already have a degree of divergence of law and the CPS recognises this In our code we have a specific provision that takes account of the potential divergence of Welsh law We will issue policy guidance and charging standards to reflect any changes as they arise And we think that we are sufficiently flexible to take account of that 
Dawn Bowden AM: So would you see the necessity for a memorandum of understanding for instance or it being useful in these circumstances or are you quite satisfied that the current guidance code would cover that ? 
Barry Hughes: Well it is yet to move from a Bill into an Act so we would need to make sure that happened We know there would be a period of time perhaps as much as two years or maybe a little more while that takes place There will be a further series of awareness raising We have strategic implementation groups—Iwan sits on that group So we would build ourselves up to come up with the appropriate guidance according to the circumstances In terms of how we would approach it within the Crown Prosecution Service in CymruWales my approach would be along the lines of working with Kwame and his colleagues to make sure that the guidance that we issue nationally suits both England and Wales And when it comes to the practical application of the legislation in Wales we would almost certainly work on the basis that the number of offences—and we might want to get into the number of potential offences but my take on it is the number of offences is likely to be very small and we would probably have two or three specialists trained in this so that any case that comes through goes to people who have got a close network and can talk with each other— 
Dawn Bowden AM: And that would be primarily around the public interest issue I understand So you are obviously a key stakeholder in terms of this legislation and you are clearly very au fait with it and all its implications What is actually been your involvement with the Government as they have been developing this legislation ? 
Barry Hughes: My own personal involvement ? Iwan and colleagues have had some involvement on a more routine basis I met with a Minister and a Deputy Minister—I met with Huw IrrancaDavies a little while ago and I met with Julie Morgan a few months ago—to discuss the overall implications and then officials on both sides have been engaging with each other It has not been a very closeknit involvement but we have had enough involvement so that we have felt we have been able to offer views on how we would deal with the legislation 
Dawn Bowden AM: So you have been satisfied with the level of involvement that you have had 
Barry Hughes: Yes I do not feel that it is been too much nor do I feel we have been left on the side at all 
Dawn Bowden AM: Now we have just talked about the divergence of criminal law and this is probably the first time that there is been an obvious divergence between English and Welsh law and so we were then talking about the guidance were not we and whether that needs amending to reflect it But I think you were saying that you felt within the existing guidance it could be dealt with so you do not see a need to update or amend the guidance 
Barry Hughes: I think we would need to update the guidance and it goes back to the application of the evidential stage before the public interest stage On the evidential stage I doubt that we will need to do much other than to make people aware that the defence is not available in Wales in the same way that it is in England and we might have some lighttouch guidance around that When it comes to the public interest stage that is a little more specialist and I think we would need to develop more with respect to that 
Dawn Bowden AM: And are you satisfied that your staff in Wales—well and in England actually across the border—will be sufficiently aware of the divergence in this area of law ? 
Barry Hughes: Not as of the present day Give us a chance Laughter 
Dawn Bowden AM: But you would expect that to be something you would— 
Barry Hughes: Yes I have no doubt To an extent actually I think I would say that staff in Wales are aware of this already because in my role as chief Crown prosecutor I publish a monthly blog and we talk about the things we are doing so staff are aware I have discussed with staff and they have seen my blog and we have put it on our website : there have been engagements with the Welsh Government that this is a piece of work in which we are interested and that is under way So actually I am probably being unfair to myself I think most staff would probably be aware that we are involved in this and that it is something that at present may well happen 
Dawn Bowden AM: And does that mean that there would also be a similar need for the CPS in England to be aware of the changes ? 
Barry Hughes: They would need to be aware but not to the same extent We have regular interchange of prosecutors between England and Wales So in my office in Cardiff for example because we work digitally I have about 30 to 35 prosecutors who work for the CPS in London and they work exclusively on London cases But there are times when some of those prosecutors will prosecute at courts in Wales and then there may be an interchange they will come to work for us on secondment or they will come to work for us permanently We would need to make sure that those people were brought up to speed on the fact that there are some aspects of Welsh law that diverge from English law 
Dawn Bowden AM: That is helpful thank you My final question Chair is just whether you think there are any other significant crossborder issues that arise from this potential legislation 
Barry Hughes: In addition to those that I have mentioned probably not It boils down to the fact that there is a defence in England for assaults upon children that is not available in Wales if this Bill goes through and then it is dealing with the consequences of that 
Dawn Bowden AM: That is fine Thank you Chair 
Lynne Neagle AM: I have got a supplementary from Suzy and then Siân 
Suzy Davies AM: Thank you I was going to ask this question later but I think it fits in— I have forgotten what I was going to ask this is terrible Oh no that is right—obviously this Act is on a particular trajectory at the moment and it is due to be introduced before the end of this Assembly Do you think it would be better for us as scrutinisers of this Act if we could see the draft changes to CPS guidance on the public interest test before we make our final decision ? 
Barry Hughes: I honestly do not think that would necessarily be helpful I have had some discussions with Kwame who would have an involvement in this What we would envisage is that we would simply want to take the present public interest factors which are set out in my view very clearly in the code for Crown prosecutors and we would provide a degree of detail around those that relates more specifically to the issues that we are discussing here So it would be taking principles of generality and according them a degree of specificity And we would need to work that up as we go along and I think you would run a risk of putting the cart before the horse if I may put it like that 
Suzy Davies AM: It is just that personally I think the public interest test is critical in all this and it would really help us to understand what it could look like before we commit to a particular course of action in supporting or not supporting the Bill that was all But thank you anyway I take your point 
Sian Gwenllian AM: My point is about the criminal law in Wales and England diverging in this particular instance and we have been told that this is probably the first time it is happened Can you think of any other examples where that divergence has happened and does it actually set some kind of precedent in motion ? 
Barry Hughes: There are other offences in Wales that do not exist in England but they do not crop up very often So to give you examples there is an offence of putting an electronic collar on your pet—let us not stretch that into children Laughter But you know sometimes—I will be quiet But putting an electronic collar on your pet that administers a shock is an offence in Wales it is not an offence in England There are also offences around the picking of cockles in west Wales which is not an offence— So you can see there are some but I would argue that the fact that you drive across the border into Scotland and commit an offence that you will not commit in England is possibly more significant for the general public Of course the topic we are discussing here is of real relevance for the general public and you have heard evidence I know already that comes from people who are quite strongly in favour and people quite strongly against it One of the ways in which I have approached this is looking at it from the perspective of what the law is there for which is to set out in essence what is acceptable what is not acceptable It does not necessarily mean we need to use the law for that but it signifies how society views a certain behaviour I like to look at it from the perspective of the person who is being affected by this namely the child and the change in the law here would afford children a degree of protection that they do not presently have but which they do have when they attain the age of 16FootnoteLink So I looked at this— If I can give you another example I have had considerable dealings over the years with offences against residents in care homes and you will have seen Winterbourne View you will have seen recently up in Durham where we have adults who need to be looked after because of issues with their mental capacity and sometimes the carers become frustrated with them and they admonish them Sometimes they admonish them verbally and then that turns into physical admonishment In much the same way as children are vulnerable and are looked after and can be sometimes quite annoying—but there is a level of protection for an adult striking a child lightly under the present law that is not available to the same adult for striking that child when they turn 16 That seems to me to not necessarily fit with where we ought to be as a society 
Sian Gwenllian AM: Do you think that what we are doing in Wales will be emulated in England at some point ? 
Barry Hughes: Well it is certainly going through in parallel in Scotland and there are a great many other countries around the world that already have this including a large number of European countries Who knows ? Trying to get any legislation through Westminster at the moment—who knows ? Not tomorrow I would say","Barry Hughes indicated that the Bill would impact England and their people, although it needed a period. Moreover, Barry thought there was no cross-border issue from the potential legislation, and the draft changing to CPS guidance would not be helpful for scrutinisers to decide on the law in Wales."
"Lynne Neagle AM: We have got some questions now on the divergence between the law in England and Wales from Dawn Bowden 
Dawn Bowden AM: Thank you Chair Hello The Assembly does not have any legislative competence to impose duties on the CPS as you know in the absence of the Secretary of States consent What are the implications for implementing the Bill in Wales for that ? 
Barry Hughes: Can I give you two examples ? One of the implications is this—and it is fairly obvious but it is still worth stressing—that the removal of the defence would mean that there would be more cases that would pass the evidential stage in Wales than there would be in England because the defence would still apply there That therefore raises issues in particular in terms of awareness of criminal offending for people from England who travel to Wales because it is fairly evident that there would be a defence available in England that is not available in Wales One of the examples that we talked about was if you consider a family on its way from England into Wales travelling to Barry Island for a holiday and troublesome children in the back of the car harsh words and a small smack on the leg delivered while they are on the M4 going past Bristol would be subject to a defence By the time we come over to this side of the water there would be no such defence for the same journey for the same act And so there are issues there in terms of the awareness of members of the public The second example that I will give you is that we already have within the United Kingdom a certain degree of divergence of laws and the example I will give to you is this : drink driving In England and Wales the limit for having micrograms of alcohol in your breath is 35 µg in 100 ml of breath Across the border in Scotland it drops to 22 µg So the same act— As you drive into Scotland you are probably to drive if you have got 34 µg by the time you get into Scotland you will not be And the consequences for you are significant because of course it is an offence in Scotland and not an offence in England but the punishment namely disqualification applies everywhere in the United Kingdom So we already have a degree of divergence of law and the CPS recognises this In our code we have a specific provision that takes account of the potential divergence of Welsh law We will issue policy guidance and charging standards to reflect any changes as they arise And we think that we are sufficiently flexible to take account of that 
Dawn Bowden AM: So would you see the necessity for a memorandum of understanding for instance or it being useful in these circumstances or are you quite satisfied that the current guidance code would cover that ? 
Barry Hughes: Well it is yet to move from a Bill into an Act so we would need to make sure that happened We know there would be a period of time perhaps as much as two years or maybe a little more while that takes place There will be a further series of awareness raising We have strategic implementation groups—Iwan sits on that group So we would build ourselves up to come up with the appropriate guidance according to the circumstances In terms of how we would approach it within the Crown Prosecution Service in CymruWales my approach would be along the lines of working with Kwame and his colleagues to make sure that the guidance that we issue nationally suits both England and Wales And when it comes to the practical application of the legislation in Wales we would almost certainly work on the basis that the number of offences—and we might want to get into the number of potential offences but my take on it is the number of offences is likely to be very small and we would probably have two or three specialists trained in this so that any case that comes through goes to people who have got a close network and can talk with each other— 
Dawn Bowden AM: And that would be primarily around the public interest issue","Barry Hughes concluded two kinds of implications. First, the Bill would raise awareness for people from England who travel to Wales. Second, people in other areas might reflect on this defense as they did to the drink driving limit in Scotland."
"Suzy Davies AM: Thank you I was going to ask this question later but I think it fits in— I have forgotten what I was going to ask this is terrible Oh no that is right—obviously this Act is on a particular trajectory at the moment and it is due to be introduced before the end of this Assembly Do you think it would be better for us as scrutinisers of this Act if we could see the draft changes to CPS guidance on the public interest test before we make our final decision ? 
Barry Hughes: I honestly do not think that would necessarily be helpful I have had some discussions with Kwame who would have an involvement in this What we would envisage is that we would simply want to take the present public interest factors which are set out in my view very clearly in the code for Crown prosecutors and we would provide a degree of detail around those that relates more specifically to the issues that we are discussing here So it would be taking principles of generality and according them a degree of specificity And we would need to work that up as we go along and I think you would run a risk of putting the cart before the horse if I may put it like that 
Suzy Davies AM: It is just that personally I think the public interest test is critical in all this and it would really help us to understand what it could look like before we commit to a particular course of action in supporting or not supporting the Bill that was all But thank you anyway I take your point","Barry Hughes thought draft changes to CPS guidance would not necessarily be helpful to the scrutinisers, and simply wanted to take the present interest factors. Barry thought they needed to work for the principles of generality and a degree of specificity."
"Vikki Howells AM: Thank you I have got one further series of questions around outofcourt disposals which you have already mentioned briefly In your written evidence you say there is ongoing work exploring diversion rather than prosecution in respect of this Bill Firstly could you tell us a bit more about the work that is being done to explore this as an option ? 
Barry Hughes: We have been working with the National Police Chiefs Council Their lead is deputy chief constable Sara Glen She is responsible for developing the police approach to outofcourt disposals and simplifying the range of outofcourt disposals There is quite a range and life would be simpler and clearer to have fewer types of disposal with more clarity about what each one of them involved I must say this is primarily a matter for the police because there are a great many offences or reports of crime that do not reach the CPS because they are dealt with by way of an outofcourt disposal Any case that the police refer to us for a charging decision is going to be something— There is a document called the directors guidance on charging which is issued by the director of public prosecutions which sets out offences the police may charge and offences the CPS may charge Offences that the police refer to us for a charging decision will generally be offences where they feel that there should be a prosecution rather than an outofcourt disposal There may be cases where it is genuinely very difficult to assess what is the best approach in which case we will have a conversation with them a meaningful conversation about what is the best way to approach that particular case There will also be cases and we see these not that rarely where the police will bring a case to us for a prosecution on the basis that satisfies the evidential stage and satisfies the public interest stage and we take a different view on the public interest stage So we might say—for example it involves a 15yearold youth—we think that diversion from the criminal justice system is a better disposal and we decide not to prosecute We are not responsible for administering the outofcourt disposal or indeed monitoring compliance with that disposal if for example it has conditions attached such as repayment of the damage caused to a window or a front gate That is not our responsibility—that will fall to the police—but we can decide that an outofcourt disposal is a more appropriate disposal than a prosecution Does that help ? 
Vikki Howells AM: It does One final question on that then : creating a body of outofcourt disposals that are specific to this Bill—how would that actually work in practice do you think given the fact that the Assemblys legislative competence to make provision on the face of the Bill is limited ? 
Barry Hughes: The way I might see it is that clearly policings not devolved the CPS is not devolved—the way I might see this is that within Wales you could build an infrastructure that provides for a range of outofcourt disposals You can not direct the police or the CPS to point people towards that but if you build a good infrastructure it is more likely that people will be pointed in that direction 
Vikki Howells AM: And who would build that infrastructure in your opinion ? 
Barry Hughes: Somewhere within Wales—Welsh Government local authorities the police working in partnership It may be that the police and crime commissioners use some of their commissioning powers to work something up I am not the right person to answer that question 
Lynne Neagle AM: Thank you If I could just ask about awareness raising then : you mentioned the Bill in Scotland but that Bill includes a duty on the Government to raise awareness of the change There is no such duty proposed in this Bill Do you think that is right or should this committee be saying that there should be a similar duty imposed in Wales ? 
Barry Hughes: I am not sure it is for me to say whether there should be a duty or not I can however say that I think the greater the level of awareness the more likely it is that the Act if passed will achieve its intentions 
Lynne Neagle AM: thank you And in your written evidence you mentioned the fact that there is no indication of any plans for awareness raising in England and that if a person from England is being prosecuted in Wales as a result of this change a question could arise about the lack of knowledge about the different provisions that apply in Wales Can I ask what approach the CPS currently takes in Wales if a law is unintentionally broken by someone who is come from outside the UK for example ? 
Barry Hughes: It is straightforward : if someone comes to this country and commits an offence here—by this country I would say England or Wales I would treat them as one for these purposes—if someone comes from abroad and commits an offence that is not an offence in their country but is an offence here then I am afraid that ignorance of the law is no defence So raising awareness is important and I saw and I was pleased to see that the media publicity surrounding this proposed legislation which is now going through reached as far afield as New York and had widespread media coverage across England and Wales and I think the Government would be well placed here to take advantage of that willingness of the media to explore something which is potentially divisive and I think you have probably seen some of that Anything like that is a good story and a good story gets out there which means you are more likely to make people aware of it","Barry Hughes introduced their cooperated organizations the National Police Chiefs' Council and their work on the out-of-court disposals. Then, Hughes and Vikki Howells talked about the possibility of creating a body of out-of-court disposals specific to the Bill. Lastly, there was a short discussion about the duty around awareness raising."
"Vikki Howells AM: Thank you I have got one further series of questions around outofcourt disposals which you have already mentioned briefly In your written evidence you say there is ongoing work exploring diversion rather than prosecution in respect of this Bill Firstly could you tell us a bit more about the work that is being done to explore this as an option ? 
Barry Hughes: We have been working with the National Police Chiefs Council Their lead is deputy chief constable Sara Glen She is responsible for developing the police approach to outofcourt disposals and simplifying the range of outofcourt disposals There is quite a range and life would be simpler and clearer to have fewer types of disposal with more clarity about what each one of them involved I must say this is primarily a matter for the police because there are a great many offences or reports of crime that do not reach the CPS because they are dealt with by way of an outofcourt disposal Any case that the police refer to us for a charging decision is going to be something— There is a document called the directors guidance on charging which is issued by the director of public prosecutions which sets out offences the police may charge and offences the CPS may charge Offences that the police refer to us for a charging decision will generally be offences where they feel that there should be a prosecution rather than an outofcourt disposal There may be cases where it is genuinely very difficult to assess what is the best approach in which case we will have a conversation with them a meaningful conversation about what is the best way to approach that particular case There will also be cases and we see these not that rarely where the police will bring a case to us for a prosecution on the basis that satisfies the evidential stage and satisfies the public interest stage and we take a different view on the public interest stage So we might say—for example it involves a 15yearold youth—we think that diversion from the criminal justice system is a better disposal and we decide not to prosecute We are not responsible for administering the outofcourt disposal or indeed monitoring compliance with that disposal if for example it has conditions attached such as repayment of the damage caused to a window or a front gate That is not our responsibility—that will fall to the police—but we can decide that an outofcourt disposal is a more appropriate disposal than a prosecution Does that help ?",The National Police Chiefs' Council was responsible for developing the police approach to out-of-court disposals and simplifying the range of out-of-court disposals.
"Vikki Howells AM: It does One final question on that then : creating a body of outofcourt disposals that are specific to this Bill—how would that actually work in practice do you think given the fact that the Assemblys legislative competence to make provision on the face of the Bill is limited ? 
Barry Hughes: The way I might see it is that clearly policings not devolved the CPS is not devolved—the way I might see this is that within Wales you could build an infrastructure that provides for a range of outofcourt disposals You can not direct the police or the CPS to point people towards that but if you build a good infrastructure it is more likely that people will be pointed in that direction 
Vikki Howells AM: And who would build that infrastructure in your opinion ? 
Barry Hughes: Somewhere within Wales—Welsh Government local authorities the police working in partnership It may be that the police and crime commissioners use some of their commissioning powers to work something up I am not the right person to answer that question","Barry Hughes thought that the infrastructure can be built for a range of out-of-court disposals. It might be built by the Welsh Government, the police, and crime commissioners."
"Lynne Neagle AM: thank you We have got some questions now on the unintended consequences from Siân Gwenllian 
Sian Gwenllian AM: Yes we have discussed some of these already but for example under the new law or the proposed law would one unintended consequence be that if someone living in Wales who can not use the reasonable punishment defence—would their life prospects be different compared to those people in England who will be able to use that defence ? I think you have mentioned that in your written evidence 
Barry Hughes: Yes A simple answer : if somebody in Wales is convicted—so if it goes towards the end of the spectrum that is serious which results in a prosecution— It may be—the sort of circumstance I can see happening here is somebody who takes a principled stand and declines any form of outofcourt disposal and says Prosecute me We probably would end up prosecuting because it is a relatively serious offence So let us say it comes to court and let us say they end up being convicted of assaulting their child—in circumstances that would not have happened in England—then they would have a criminal conviction they would not have in England and that inevitably has an impact upon their life prospects But I think along the road there there would have been an element of choice 
Sian Gwenllian AM: And do you think that that would be an isolated incident ? 
Barry Hughes: Yes truly I believe an isolated incident I have said before that I would be very surprised if we even had referrals that reached double figures on these cases They are likely to be very limited When the CPS was asked to conduct a survey across all of England and Wales—this was the review in 2007—it spanned just over a twoyear period and there were 12 cases that were brought up at that stage Now I have to say I do not think that is entirely reliable but it is indicative We had a Freedom of Information Act request at one stage which threw up something like three cases in a year So if you think about that as being all of England and Wales—and we make up about 5 per cent of the volume of criminal prosecutions nationally—you can see why I might say the numbers are likely to be small for the reasons we have explored about getting past the evidential stage into the public interest 
Sian Gwenllian AM: Thank you for that In terms of thinking about another kind of unintended consequence in terms of managing performance and all of the targets that the police need to reach are we perhaps going to see some people going through the criminal justice system in an inappropriate way and contrary to the interests of the child because we need to reach some target in terms of performance measures ? 
Barry Hughes: I have to say I think that extremely unlikely In the CPS we do not have targets for securing convictions or not Clearly we prosecute if we think that there is a reasonable prospect a realistic prospect of conviction and it is in the public interest but we have no targets And I would also say because the numbers here are likely to be so small any assertion of looking to meet targets—it is a tiny tiny fragment of a drop in the ocean 
Sian Gwenllian AM: What about— ? There is a target for unsolved crimes or unsolved offences What if they fall into that category ? Is that an unintended consequence ? 
Barry Hughes: I am talking about something I do not have great knowledge of here There was at one stage a series of targets for the police that bore down upon cases that secure what was called a sanction detection which counted for Home Office figures That disappeared some years ago Some individual constabularies may still have targets but as far as I am aware we do not have a suite of national measures The police are required to report against this but we do not have targets And in my experience the police are much more sensible these days than they may have been 20 years ago in terms of trying to get cases charged in order to meet some notional target It is much less of an issue than it ever was—much 
Sian Gwenllian AM: We have mentioned this namely the risk of malicious reporting against parents involved in private family law cases This happens now of course Is that going to increase if we change the law ? 
Barry Hughes: There is greater potential for it to increase I think the numbers again will be tiny and dwarfed by the number of cases where we have to deal with the fallout between a relationship breakdown between partners—whether they be living within the same house or living in different houses Regrettably there are times when children are used as part of this ongoing dispute Getting into the subtleties of the father say smacking the child in a way that was reasonable chastisement or was not reasonable chastisement is probably part of a much bigger piece here I can see it potentially arising It is not something that would cause me concern simply because we already have a welldeveloped approach to dealing with the way in which we evaluate the evidence from parties who may well have a particular position that they want to reinforce sometimes through exaggeration of basic facts and sometimes through fabrication 
Sian Gwenllian AM: Are there any other unintended consequences that come to your mind if we introduce this law ? 
Barry Hughes: No I think we have had a pretty helpful canter through most of the circumstances here that might happen And I can not think of anything else off the top of my head 
Sian Gwenllian AM: Finally from me therefore—another issue in a way—the European convention on human rights Would not introducing the new law mean at some point that Wales could get itself into difficulty because there is a breach of the human rights convention ? And therefore England as well at some point 
Barry Hughes: Right How to approach that one ? In the 2007 review to which we have referred already the Government the then Government set out its position that it believes that section 58 in the way that it was drafted is compliant with the European convention There are various parties who would disagree with that but that was the then Governments position If Wales implements this legislation and it becomes part of the law then arguably Wales would be more in compliance with ECHR than not and England would be less so But nonetheless at present I have not seen any demurral from the position that was expressed in 2007 which is that they consider that the position that is been adopted with section 58 is compliant with the legislation It may well be tested by case law that is the way it is likely to happen Some of the changes in this arena were driven by case law—so that case I referred to Regina v H which was heard back in 2001 in the Court of Appeal was significant in helping shape the direction of travel towards section 58 
Sian Gwenllian AM: And that case law not necessarily would have to happen within the UK—that case law could come from other countries within the European Union 
Barry Hughes: It could but I would be a foolish man if I were to say what impact European jurisprudence might have upon us Laughter 
Suzy Davies AM: Inaudible—like common law jurisdictions would be 
Barry Hughes: Yes At this point in time that would be a bit of a punt 
Janet Finch-Saunders AM: Yes Suzys touched on this mildly but in written evidence you say that you do not consider that the costs of prosecuting cases made possible by the Bill will be of great significance to the Crown Prosecution Service and you are basing that from your evidence here today on the low numbers of prosecutions So we have been asked by individuals and we have had consultation responses from individuals who have argued that there is no point creating legislation if people are not prosecuted for breaching it What is your answer to that ? 
Barry Hughes: There is a huge body of legislation out there that outlaws certain offences and I think probably about— There are over— From memory—please never hold me to this—but from memory there are something like 10000 criminal offences we probably prosecute 5 per cent of those in any given year There are some offences on the statute— I have been prosecuting for 32 years now there are some offences that I have never come near and probably never will But nonetheless the fact those offences exist sets out in terms what is acceptable and what is not acceptable So we have various defences to do with Acts I remember seeing some about Antarctic stations and offences that might be committed there Well they are not something that we do but it sets out what is tolerant—what is tolerable sorry and what is not So the fact that we might not have many prosecutions is for me not a reason not to say that we should not signify that certain behaviour is or is not acceptable Clearly we do not wish to criminalise everything—that would be a nonsense—or to attempt to set the boundaries by almost micromanaging what individuals do and do not do The criminal law provides a general framework within which to operate which most people tend to understand So awareness is important and it comes back to that point 
Janet Finch-Saunders AM: Thank you And then the explanatory memorandum says there is a shortage of registered intermediaries who assist child witnesses during police interview and when giving evidence in court Is this a potential barrier to implementing this proposed law and are there any other potential barriers you want to raise ? 
Barry Hughes: No It is a potential barrier but I do not think it is a barrier There was a shortage of registered intermediaries in Wales and I know that the Ministry of Justice have taken action to deal with that and we have had a number of people who are now in a position to act as intermediaries Now of course if they were to decide not to do that anymore we may have a problem but in turn we would be looking to recruit more people into those positions So yes it has the potential to serve as a barrier but in practice I do not think it would be a barrier I think particularly given the very low numbers we are talking about we would be able to manage it I have got no significant concerns I have to say 
Lynne Neagle AM: Thank you Well we have come to the end of our time Can I thank you for attending the three of you and for your answers which have been fascinating and very clear and most helpful to the committee ? You will be sent a transcript following the meeting to check for accuracy Thank you again for your time in coming here today Diolch yn fawr 
Barry Hughes: Thank you It is been a pleasure 
Lynne Neagle AM: Item 3 then is papers to note Paper to note 1 is a letter from me to the Business Committee requesting an extension on the deadline for the Bill which has now been agreed Paper to note 2 is a letter from myself to the Deputy Minister for Health and Social Services requesting some further information from CAFCASS Cymru on the Bill Paper to note 3 is a letter from myself to the Minister for Education regarding Diamond reform implementation ahead of our scrutiny session on 4 July Are Members happy to note those ? Item 4 then Can I propose in accordance with Standing Order 1742 that the committee resolves to meet in private for the remainder of the meeting ? Are Members content ? Thank you","Barry Hughes explained a number of unintended consequences questioned. The first one was about the isolated incidences in Wales, and the second came to the targets in terms of performance measure. The following concerns included malicious reporting, the European convention on human rights, low numbers of prosecutions, and a shortage of registered intermediaries."
"Sian Gwenllian AM: Thank you for that In terms of thinking about another kind of unintended consequence in terms of managing performance and all of the targets that the police need to reach are we perhaps going to see some people going through the criminal justice system in an inappropriate way and contrary to the interests of the child because we need to reach some target in terms of performance measures ? 
Barry Hughes: I have to say I think that extremely unlikely In the CPS we do not have targets for securing convictions or not Clearly we prosecute if we think that there is a reasonable prospect a realistic prospect of conviction and it is in the public interest but we have no targets And I would also say because the numbers here are likely to be so small any assertion of looking to meet targets—it is a tiny tiny fragment of a drop in the ocean 
Sian Gwenllian AM: What about— ? There is a target for unsolved crimes or unsolved offences What if they fall into that category ? Is that an unintended consequence ? 
Barry Hughes: I am talking about something I do not have great knowledge of here There was at one stage a series of targets for the police that bore down upon cases that secure what was called a sanction detection which counted for Home Office figures That disappeared some years ago Some individual constabularies may still have targets but as far as I am aware we do not have a suite of national measures The police are required to report against this but we do not have targets And in my experience the police are much more sensible these days than they may have been 20 years ago in terms of trying to get cases charged in order to meet some notional target It is much less of an issue than it ever was—much","Barry Hughes stated that they did not have targets and only prosecuted with reasonable prospects. As for the police, there were no targets for the police anymore, except for some individuals."
"Janet Finch-Saunders AM: Thank you And then the explanatory memorandum says there is a shortage of registered intermediaries who assist child witnesses during police interview and when giving evidence in court Is this a potential barrier to implementing this proposed law and are there any other potential barriers you want to raise ? 
Barry Hughes: No It is a potential barrier but I do not think it is a barrier There was a shortage of registered intermediaries in Wales and I know that the Ministry of Justice have taken action to deal with that and we have had a number of people who are now in a position to act as intermediaries Now of course if they were to decide not to do that anymore we may have a problem but in turn we would be looking to recruit more people into those positions So yes it has the potential to serve as a barrier but in practice I do not think it would be a barrier I think particularly given the very low numbers we are talking about we would be able to manage it I have got no significant concerns I have to say 
Lynne Neagle AM: Thank you Well we have come to the end of our time Can I thank you for attending the three of you and for your answers which have been fascinating and very clear and most helpful to the committee ? You will be sent a transcript following the meeting to check for accuracy Thank you again for your time in coming here today Diolch yn fawr","Karen Cornish thought it was a potential barrier but not a substantial barrier. The Ministry of Justice had taken action to deal with it and there had had a number of people in the positions. However, it was true that the work required larger recruitment."
"Project Manager: The basic you thought of some evaluation crit criteria ? 
Marketing: my name is not name well I used the the documents And these were the most important criteria that is how the fashion guys state it Fancy look and feel So 
User Interface: So just walk through it step by step I mean is it fancy everything I believe I believe it is fancy 
Industrial Designer: I believe it is fancy too 
Marketing: but apparently we should not evaluate yet 
Project Manager: this these are the cr the criteria 
Marketing: I think these are the most important criteria 
Project Manager: the then we will switch to my presentation","The group thought the remote control should be fancy, innovative, easy to use, easy to find and spongy and evaluated the prototype with these criteria. Although they had brilliant ideas and designed a best remote control within their capacity, they just designed a product of high quality but low acceptance."
"Marketing: Is it easy to use ? 
Project Manager: I am not sure I am not sure 
User Interface: Well the voice recognition of course is hard to learn I think Well hard it is not for the for the e for the elderly They will not use it 
Industrial Designer: Well but there are two parts in this remote control What you see here is is the basic part Everybody can use it so that is easy to use That is for a novice user When you have a more advanced elaborate user well such a user really would like to explore all these additional functions So in that in that way it is advanced and I think it is easy to use for for both types of users 
User Interface: I think I think a three 
Industrial Designer: So It is maybe it is not very easy for 
User Interface: Would not give it more 
Project Manager: I am doubting doubting as well 
Marketing: Well the p the most important function is easy to use The the zapping channel switching volume But the more advanced functions are probably a bit harder 
Project Manager: two or three ? Three ? Wha wh what would be your guess ? I mean ease of use does not only apply to the most basic functions It is the it is it is overall Is the device easy to use ? 
Industrial Designer: that is right You are right in that but I I guess an advanced user will will find the voice recognition function easy to use",User Interface believed that voice recognition was hard to learn while Industrial Designer argued that the remote control had two parts and everyone could use the basic part. He also pointed out that an advanced user would like to explore additional functions.
"Project Manager: The remote control offers enough features Well Ruud what what do you think about it ? 
Marketing: Well the basic layout does not offem offer much but the voice recognition could add a lot So 
Industrial Designer: Basically it is it is completely programmable You can add very m much functionality by using the voice recognition mode So it is quite advanced 
Project Manager: What what we did not talk about is 
User Interface: but it ha does not has the digits I believe it is If you ask yourself it offers enough features I do not I do not think it is it has all the features a normal remote has 
Marketing: depends on what you implement in the speech feat 
Project Manager: Bec because you can we did not talk about it but you do have remote controls that are able to adapt another signal So you place a a regular remote control in front of the other one hit the one or the two or the three whatever and it r records the the the the signals 
Industrial Designer: Has the signals sent to it 
Project Manager: So you could enter any comment you like as long it is able to as long as our device is able to reproduce the infrared signal So I think th this this is a a remote control with a very high level of features Although there are i a few buttons but the inside is is quite advanced 
Industrial Designer: Yes But that that is its power I guess because a regular programmable remote control contains well really a lot of buttons At at least forty buttons So it is it is quite s complicated to get to get used to And this is quite s simple You can use your voice to to programme it It is 
Project Manager: let us give it a number I will give it a one For for the for this t type of market I think it is a one 
User Interface: I will give a two 
Industrial Designer: I will give it a one 
Marketing: I think think a one because v with a voice recognition you could add anything you want so that is like 
Industrial Designer: Yes I I have I think we have succe succeed in in developing a product that is actually quite good but not for this kind of market and not for this kind of price 
Project Manager: So high quality low acceptance",Marketing thought that the basic layout was mundane but the voice recognition was brilliant. User Interface added that it did not have the digits but had all the features a normal remote control had. Industrial Designer agreed but pointed out that they just design the best product within their capacity. Project agreed and concluded that it was of high quality but low acceptance.
"Project Manager: The production costs The costs are not under Can I this is the it is it is w way above above the the the twelve Euro fifty And what makes it very expensive is for example the solar cell So I guess we should skip that 
Industrial Designer: Well it is very expensive 
Project Manager: because it is not that important 
User Interface: Why does the price and and the s oh one exa 
Project Manager: the the price the the number of items and the the sum well this is what I would call our luxury model if you would if you look at the w w w what we could do to make it more to make it just between the twelve Euro fifty then I did the following changes Twelve Euro forty cents I came up with by leaving out the solar cells by not using the voice recognition feature because it is it is a four Euro addition to the price I believe pushbutton well It makes it the thirteen Pushbuttons are buttons are are not the most expensive but do add extra cost So th this design is not within our price model 
Industrial Designer: But I am afraid it is not complete Because we use spec specic special materials the last item And you have not added one item there So it is c way too expensive 
Project Manager: It is still too expensive 
User Interface: But that is that is only for the buttons 
Project Manager: I I guess if we leave the if we leave this one out 
User Interface: So the button we can use plastic 
Project Manager: And maybe not use the special form 
User Interface: And the pla And a plastic b just plastic buttons a plas instead of rubber 
Project Manager: It becomes a very dull remote control I know But it is the board decision And 
Industrial Designer: Well b basically it when when this is our only option we should even consider changing the casing because I think there is very little added value in an enhanced case with these dull functions 
Project Manager: I know Maybe we should look at an focus on another 
Industrial Designer: So Type of m maybe another market segment 
Project Manager: m maybe not not all that fancy but just way way more easy basic and m maximise the profits 
Industrial Designer: That is maybe that is better Maybe we could we should go for straight and simple but that is not what has been asked So we should kick the boards Well 
Project Manager: Although I think we but we could still make a remote control that ap applies more to young people by giving it another colour already so it is possible to make a device that attracts a little bit more to young people but I agree it is it is not a fancy hightech device Definitely not no It is not that innovative Or however you s pronounce that this is the wrong one So that means redesign We do not have the time o now to to redesign the product but we can evaluate the process and the satisfaction on how things went I am not sure if we need to evaluate the device first I guess 
Marketing: well since we are not going to manufacture it anyway 
Industrial Designer: Well maybe it is good to do it anyway because if we evaluate it we we can also determine if our objectives are good 
Project Manager: We l we can learn I agree","Project Manager revealed that it would cost 22 Euros at current standards so they should leave out some characteristics that could not add much value. Since it could be dull and simple without those characteristics, the group supposed that the selling price could be raised to 50 Euros."
"Project Manager: The production costs The costs are not under Can I this is the it is it is w way above above the the the twelve Euro fifty And what makes it very expensive is for example the solar cell So I guess we should skip that 
Industrial Designer: Well it is very expensive 
Project Manager: because it is not that important 
User Interface: Why does the price and and the s oh one exa 
Project Manager: the the price the the number of items and the the sum well this is what I would call our luxury model if you would if you look at the w w w what we could do to make it more to make it just between the twelve Euro fifty then I did the following changes Twelve Euro forty cents I came up with by leaving out the solar cells by not using the voice recognition feature because it is it is a four Euro addition to the price I believe pushbutton well It makes it the thirteen Pushbuttons are buttons are are not the most expensive but do add extra cost So th this design is not within our price model 
Industrial Designer: But I am afraid it is not complete Because we use spec specic special materials the last item And you have not added one item there So it is c way too expensive 
Project Manager: It is still too expensive 
User Interface: But that is that is only for the buttons 
Project Manager: I I guess if we leave the if we leave this one out 
User Interface: So the button we can use plastic 
Project Manager: And maybe not use the special form 
User Interface: And the pla And a plastic b just plastic buttons a plas instead of rubber 
Project Manager: It becomes a very dull remote control I know But it is the board decision And 
Industrial Designer: Well b basically it when when this is our only option we should even consider changing the casing because I think there is very little added value in an enhanced case with these dull functions 
Project Manager: I know Maybe we should look at an focus on another 
Industrial Designer: So Type of m maybe another market segment 
Project Manager: m maybe not not all that fancy but just way way more easy basic and m maximise the profits 
Industrial Designer: That is maybe that is better Maybe we could we should go for straight and simple but that is not what has been asked So we should kick the boards Well 
Project Manager: Although I think we but we could still make a remote control that ap applies more to young people by giving it another colour already so it is possible to make a device that attracts a little bit more to young people but I agree it is it is not a fancy hightech device Definitely not no It is not that innovative Or however you s pronounce that this is the wrong one So that means redesign We do not have the time o now to to redesign the product but we can evaluate the process and the satisfaction on how things went I am not sure if we need to evaluate the device first I guess 
Marketing: well since we are not going to manufacture it anyway 
Industrial Designer: Well maybe it is good to do it anyway because if we evaluate it we we can also determine if our objectives are good 
Project Manager: We l we can learn I agree",Project Manager revealed that it would be over budget so they had to make some changes. He proposed to reduce costs by leaving out solar cells and not using voice recognition. Then User Interface supposed that the buttons could be made of plastics and Industrial Designer proposed to make the remote control straight and simple.
"User Interface: That is price but w w 
Industrial Designer: well it is not it is not very expensive for a remote control that that has this functionality 
User Interface: No An original remote control of any TV kind a Phillips remote control y you pay 
Industrial Designer: Yes it is more than fifty Euros It is quite expensive yes 
User Interface: I kn I know from a few years ago it it it costed hundred Gilders 
Project Manager: Bu but well I know but you are paying for th for the brand because there are remote controls which control your stereo television DVD CD player for under twenty five Euros 
Industrial Designer: Yes Yes but you can you c Yes but you can learn this thing all these functions And it is easier to use because those remote controls do not offer voice recognition So I think it is worth its price","Since the prototype was over budget, Industrial Designer proposed to raise the selling price to 50 Euros. He thought it was not very expensive for a remote control that had this functionality."
"Project Manager: Kay so we will try to zip through this since we are short on time Welcome everybody hope your sessions went well so this is our functional design meeting we are going to consider user needs technical effects and the working design of our remote control I have been taking meetings on the minute minutes on the meetings and I will be putting them in the shared documents folder so if there is anything you need to refer to you can find them in there I I will get the ones up for next time they are not finished yet Right so can we have updates from everyone from what you have worked on just kind of a quick summary of anything interesting that you would like to share or discuss in this 
Marketing: And I can start if you want Mm Is there an order ? No We have not decided on an order 
Project Manager: No any any orders fine 
Marketing: First how do I put this I will just put the cable in Is that it ? Can you see ? Oh here So what happens it does not work ? 
Project Manager: It sh it takes a few seconds I think 
Industrial Designer: But sometimes you have to do it 
Marketing: Is it in the right thing ? 
Industrial Designer: it is like a three set setting cycle so press it a couple times hold down function and then press F eight 
Marketing: Oh wait You need to help me 
Project Manager: Uhhuh and then press function 
User Interface: Could you just plug it back into hers because she had 
Marketing: That is is that it ? 
Industrial Designer: The cable might be a little loose or something Oh you got it 
Project Manager: Oh Is it on ? 
Marketing: In order to see what the functional requirements were to be found a hundred people were tested in a usability laboratory through just their habits to n know their habits were observed and questionnaires were given out the findings in in some cases matched what we were talking about Custome Customers and users do not like the way remote controls look they do not like the way they feel they do not think they match their operating behaviour and an example is what we were talking about the buttons they only use ten per cent of the buttons so later on there is a study of the buttons that they use most and I think we should design according to these buttons Easy to lose and RSI I do not know what RSI means the person that did the questionnaire obviously did I do not have a clue according to the frequency of use and the relevance of each buttons I have made a list of the buttons that we should focus on in order of importance So the most important buttons are those to do with channel selection They are used about a hundred and sixty times per hour And so and and people like to zap a lot apparently so this is the order Channel selection teletext volume and power The other ones are the settings and they are used less than you know zero point eight to zero point five times per hour and this means that I think we can we could have like a a button for all the settings and then just one and then from there go on to the audio on the screen either on the remote or on the television about the screen and speech recognition some people are more willing than others to actually pay for that And if we look at the market f people from well from fifteen to thirty five year old year olds I do not really know how to describe this ninety one to seventy six percent of people in that age range are willing to pay more for this sort of product while people that are above thirty five years old years old go from thirty five percent to eight percent so people that are sixty five for example would not actually pay for this sort of thing I do not I do not know what the decision to be made is but I think that the people that actually do buy remotes m more are those like teenagers and young professionals and most likely but we should discuss this together And that is all I have to say about the matter Shall I what do I do ? Do I give this to someone else ? 
User Interface: Right So get this so now I need to press F eight what is it ? Kay What is function ? 
Project Manager: It is the little blue w it is the one th 
User Interface: Oh function I see it","Project Manager stated the meeting topic on function design. Firstly, Marketing concluded a study on user needs, including buttons for channel selection according to the frequency of use and the relevance of each button, and suggested targeting on the nineteen to thirty-five years old age group to design functions. Next, User Interface presented on the technical effect on what functions users need and how to make the best functions for users. Then, Industrial Designer presented the working design, including input a channel or volume setting and output the location function to the television."
"Project Manager: I guess we should make some kind of brainstorming see what we can 
User Interface: how it looks or like what it does ? 
Project Manager: wha what well probably our target group and how it is going to going to appeal to our target group and I do not know the the s the buttons and what it does and that sort of thing So 
User Interface: So Is our target group then people so do we want to go ahead and design this thing with the finder button ? 
Project Manager: I think that seems to Mm 
Industrial Designer: It is easy to implement 
Marketing: the the buzzer you mean","At the first beginning of the discussion, Industrial Designer mentioned that it would be easy to implement something like a buzzer to trace the remote location. Project Manager suggested a two-part package - on one hand, users could click the button on the TV to send out the signal; on the other hand, the remote base could beep probably so that users could know where the remote control has gone."
"User Interface: So then our target age group would be the nineteen to thirty five range 
Marketing: Well that is for speech recognition And screen That is only for speech recognition and screen 
Industrial Designer: I was thinking about that but I mean speech recognition is really hard to programme and also if the TV is on it is making sound and the people on the TV are talking and if somebody says like one then the TVs going to switch itself to channel one or it seems like a silly I am not sure how you would implement it 
Marketing: I just put the values in 
Project Manager: And if if you consider our budget it probably 
Marketing: But the screen is the same as what 
Industrial Designer: It is a cool idea but 
Project Manager: if you consider our budget to h have speech recognition programmed in every single remote might be a little pricey 
Marketing: I am happy with that","Marketing suggested the speech recognition design is for user groups aged from nineteen to thirty-five. Industrial Designer supplemented the feature design that if the TV is on and somebody says like one, then the TV would switch itself to channel one. However, Project Manager illustrated that considering the budget, to have the speech recognition programmed in every single remote might be expensive. And this ended up was commonly agreed by other group mates."
"Project Manager: So I mean the two remotes that you had shown r I do not remember who showed them you you did 
User Interface: That was that was me 
Project Manager: they are I mean one looked like it was for VCR type thing and the other looked like just television 
User Interface: I think w I think they are both sort of just like general remo they are both general remotes 
Project Manager: Oh really Because that that is something we have to decide is whether we want to have VCR capabilities 
Industrial Designer: Does anyone know if VCRs are the same across international ? so you would need like a whole different set of buttons for everybodys VCRs 
Marketing: It not VHS here ? 
Industrial Designer: other than that region and coding thing 
Project Manager: And and if we are if we are targeting young professionals and teenagers I mean it is going to be DVD type that is the the technology these days 
User Interface: So let us see if I can I think still though it should not be that hard to take like just reduce the number of buttons you know like because if you just have like one menu button that works like with a you know or you can just kind of scroll through the options you that come up on the TV 
Marketing: Well for sure we need the I think we can just design the channels ? I mean powers just a button and it is not used that much",Project Manager mentioned that the group needed to decide on the VCR capabilities and answered Industrial Designer's question on whether VCRs were the same across the world. So Industrial Designer suggested a whole different set of buttons for individual VCRs. Project Manager suggested DVD type if considering the target group as young professionals and teenagers.
Professor C: We we abandoned the lapel because they sort of were not too not too hot not too cold they were you know they were far enough away that you got more background noise and and so forth but they were not so close that they got quite the you know the really good No th they I mean they did not Wait a minute I m saying that wrong They were not so far away that they were really good representative distant mikes but on the other hand they were not so close that they got rid of all the interference So it was no did not seem to be a good point to them On the other hand if you only had to have one mike in some ways you could argue the lapel was a good choice precisely because it s in the middle There s some kinds of junk that you get with these things that you do not get with the lapel little mouth clicks and breaths and so forth are worse with these than with the lapel but given the choice we there seemed to be very strong opinions for getting rid of lapels,"The professor pointed out that the lapel microphones were too close, so they were not good representative microphones. There was strong agreement that mics capture breath and other non-voice sounds since they were common."
"PhD F: We So we just put in an order for about twelve new machines to use as sort of a compute farm And we ordered SUN Blade one hundreds and I m not sure exactly how long it will take for those to come in but in addition we are running So the plan for using these is we are running P make and Customs here and Andreas has sort of gotten that all fixed up and up to speed And he s got a number of little utilities that make it very easy to run things using P make and Customs You do not actually have to write P make scripts and things like that The simplest thing And I can send an email around or maybe I should do an FAQ on the web site about it or something 
Professor C: How about an email that points to the FAQ you know what I m saying ? 
PhD F: there s a command that you can use called `` run command `` `` Run dash command `` `` run hyphen command `` And if you say that and then some job that you want to execute it will find the fastest currently available machine and export your job to that machine and and run it there and it will duplicate your environment So you can try this as a simple test with the L S command So you can say `` run dash command L S `` and it will actually export that LS command to some machine in the institute and do an LS on your current directory So substitute LS for whatever command you want to run and And that s a simple way to get started using using this And so soon when we get all the new machines up e then we will have lots more compute to use Now th one of the nice things is that each machine that s part of the P make and Customs network has attributes associated with it attributes like how much memory the machine has what its speed is what its operating system and when you use something like `` run command `` you can specify those attributes for your program For example if you only want your thing to run under Linux you can give it the Linux attribute and then it will find the fastest available Linux machine and run it on that So You can control where your jobs go to a certain extent all the way down to an individual machine Each machine has an attribute which is the name of itself So you can give that as an attribute and it will only run on that If there s already a job running on some machine that you are trying to select your job will get queued up and then when that resource that machine becomes available your job will get exported there So there s a lot of nice features to it and it kind of helps to balance the load of the machines and right now Andreas and I have been the main ones using it and we are The SRI recognizer has all this P make customs stuff built into it 
Professor C: So as I understand you know he s using all the machines and you are using all the machines is the rough division of 
PhD F: Exactly you know I I sort of got started comment using the recognizer just recently and I fired off a training job and then I fired off a recognition job and I get this email about midnight from Andreas saying `` are you running two trainings simultaneously s my m my jobs are not getting run `` So I had to back off a little bit But soon as we get some more machines then then we will have more compute available So that s just a quick update about what we ve got So 
Grad G: I have I have a question about the parallelization ? So let s say I have like a thousand little little jobs to do ? how do I do it with `` run command `` ? I mean do 
PhD F: You could write a script which called run command on each sub job 
Grad G: huh A thousand times ? 
PhD F: right ? But you probably want to be careful with that because you do not want to saturate the network so you know you should you should probably not run more than say ten jobs yourself at any one time just because then it would keep other people 
Grad G: Oh too much file transfer and stuff 
PhD F: Well it s not that so much as that you know e with if everybody ran fifty jobs at once then it would just bring everything to a halt and you know people s jobs would get delayed so it s sort of a sharing thing so you should try to limit it to somet sometim some number around ten jobs at a time So if you had a script for example that had a thousand things it needed to run you would somehow need to put some logic in there if you were going to use `` run command `` to only have ten of those going at a time And then when one of those finished you would fire off another one 
Professor C: I remember I I forget whether it was when the Rutgers or or Hopkins workshop I remember one of the workshops I was at there were everybody was real excited cuz they got twenty five machines and there was some kind of P make like thing that sit sent things out So all twenty five people were sending things to all twenty five machines and and things were a lot less efficient than if you would just use your own machine 
PhD F: Yep exactly you have to be a little bit careful but you can also If you have that level of parallelization and you do not want to have to worry about writing the logic in in a Perl script to take care of that you can use P make and and you basically write a Make file that you know your final job depends on these one thousand things and when you run P make on your Make file you can give it the dash capital J and and then a number and that number represents how many machines to use at once And then it will make sure that it never goes above that I can get some documentation 
PhD D: So it it s it s not systematically queued I mean all the jobs are running If you launch twenty jobs they are all running Alright","PhD F explained that he mistakenly had run his tasks on all the available compute instances. There was not enough computational resources going around. New computers were coming soon, but people would have to learn to share until then. It was important not to saturate computational resources. He also told the team how to properly queue tasks."
"Professor C: So as I understand you know he s using all the machines and you are using all the machines is the rough division of 
PhD F: Exactly you know I I sort of got started comment using the recognizer just recently and I fired off a training job and then I fired off a recognition job and I get this email about midnight from Andreas saying `` are you running two trainings simultaneously s my m my jobs are not getting run `` So I had to back off a little bit But soon as we get some more machines then then we will have more compute available So that s just a quick update about what we ve got So 
Grad G: I have I have a question about the parallelization ? So let s say I have like a thousand little little jobs to do ? how do I do it with `` run command `` ? I mean do 
PhD F: You could write a script which called run command on each sub job 
Grad G: huh A thousand times ? 
PhD F: right ? But you probably want to be careful with that because you do not want to saturate the network so you know you should you should probably not run more than say ten jobs yourself at any one time just because then it would keep other people 
Grad G: Oh too much file transfer and stuff 
PhD F: Well it s not that so much as that you know e with if everybody ran fifty jobs at once then it would just bring everything to a halt and you know people s jobs would get delayed so it s sort of a sharing thing so you should try to limit it to somet sometim some number around ten jobs at a time So if you had a script for example that had a thousand things it needed to run you would somehow need to put some logic in there if you were going to use `` run command `` to only have ten of those going at a time And then when one of those finished you would fire off another one 
Professor C: I remember I I forget whether it was when the Rutgers or or Hopkins workshop I remember one of the workshops I was at there were everybody was real excited cuz they got twenty five machines and there was some kind of P make like thing that sit sent things out So all twenty five people were sending things to all twenty five machines and and things were a lot less efficient than if you would just use your own machine","The professor recalled that at a workshop at Hopkins or Rutgers, twenty-five participants were running their tasks on twenty-five machines. Things would have been better if they ran tasks on their own machine. He was adding to PhD F's remarks on students in the team doing a similar thing."
"PhD D: Mmm You We are playing we are also playing trying to put other spectral subtraction mmm in the code it would be a very simple spectral subtraction on the mel energies which I already tested but without the frame dropping actually and I think it s important to have frame dropping if you use spectral subtraction 
PhD F: Is it is spectral subtraction typically done on the after the mel scaling or is it done on the FFT bins ? Does it matter or ? 
PhD D: I d I do not know Well it s both both cases can i So some of the proposal we are doing this on the bin on the FFT bins others on the mel energies You can do both but I can not tell you what s which one might be better or I 
PhD A: I guess if you want to reconstruct the speech it may be a good idea to do it on FFT bins 
PhD D: I do not know but 
PhD A: But for speech recognition it may not I mean it may not be very different if you do it on mel warped or whether you do it on FFT So you are going to do a linear weighting anyway after that So it may not be really a big different 
PhD D: Well it gives something different but I do not know what are the pros and cons of both 
PhD A: The other thing is like when you are putting in a speech enhancement technique is it like one stage speech enhancement ? Because everybody seems to have a mod two stages of speech enhancement in all the proposals which is really giving them some improvement I mean they just do the same thing again once more And So there s something that is good about doing it I mean to cleaning it up once more 
PhD D: So maybe in my implementation I should also try to inspire me from this kind of thing 
Professor C: Well the other thing would be to combine what you are doing I mean maybe one or one or the other of the things that you are doing would benefit from the other happening first Right so he s doing a signal subspace thing maybe it would work better if you would already done some simple spectral subtraction or maybe vi maybe the other way around 
PhD A: So I ve been thinking about combining the Wiener filtering with signal subspace I mean just to see all some some such permutation combination to see whether it really helps or not 
Professor C: How is it I I guess I m ignorant about this how does I mean since Wiener filter also assumes that you are that you are adding together the two signals how is how is that differ from signal subspace ? 
PhD A: The signal subspace ? The The signal subspace approach has actually an in built Wiener filtering in it It is like a KL transform followed by a Wiener filter Is the signal is is a signal substrate 
Professor C: Oh oh OK so the difference is the KL 
PhD A: So the the different the c the the advantage of combining two things is mainly coming from the signal subspace approach does not work very well if the SNR is very bad It s it works very poorly with the poor SNR conditions and in colored noise 
Professor C: I see So essentially you could do simple spectral subtraction followed by a KL transform followed by a 
PhD A: Wiener filtering It s a it s a cascade of two s 
Professor C: Wiener filter in general you do not that s right you do not want to othorg orthogonalize if the things are noisy Actually that was something that Herve and I were talking about with the multi band stuff that if you are converting things to from bands groups of bands into cepstral coef you know local sort of local cepstral coefficients that it s not that great to do it if it s noisy 
PhD A: So that that s one reason maybe we could combine s some something to improve SNR a little bit first stage and then do a something in the second stage which could take it further 
PhD D: What was your point about about colored noise there ? 
PhD A: the colored noise the the v the signal subspace approach has I mean it it actually depends on inverting the matrices So it it ac the covariance matrix of the noise So if if it is not positive definite I mean it has a it s It does not behave very well if it is not positive definite ak It works very well with white noise because we know for sure that it has a positive definite 
Professor C: So you should do spectral subtraction and then add noise 
PhD A: So the way they get around is like they do an inverse filtering first of the colo colored noise and then make the noise white and then finally when you reconstruct the speech back you do this filtering again 
Professor C: I was only half kidding I mean if you sort of you do the s spectral subtraction that also gets rid and then you then then add a little bit l noise noise addition I mean that sort of what J JRASTA does in a way If you look at what JRASTA doing essentially i i it s equivalent to sort of adding a little adding a little noise in order to get rid of the effects of noise 
PhD D: So there is this And maybe we well we find some people so that agree to maybe work with us and they have implementation of VTS techniques so it s Vector Taylor Series that are used to mmm f to model the transformation between clean cepstra and noisy cepstra So Well if you take the standard model of channel plus noise it s it s a nonlinear eh transformation in the cepstral domain",The team was doing spectral subtraction with both scaling and GGT bins. There were pros and cons to both approaches. The professor suggested a simple spectral subtraction followed by a KL transformation. He also suggested using JRASTRA's technique which relied on adding some noise to get rid of noise. The team also suggested VTS techniques.
"PhD D: So there is this And maybe we well we find some people so that agree to maybe work with us and they have implementation of VTS techniques so it s Vector Taylor Series that are used to mmm f to model the transformation between clean cepstra and noisy cepstra So Well if you take the standard model of channel plus noise it s it s a nonlinear eh transformation in the cepstral domain And there is a way to approximate this using first order or second order Taylor Series and it can be used for getting rid of the noise and the channel effect 
Professor C: Who is doing this ? 
PhD D: w working in the cepstral domain ? So there is one guy in Grenada 
PhD B: in Grenada one of my friend 
PhD D: and another in pause Lucent that I met at ICASSP 
Professor C: Who s the guy in Grenada ? I do not know him 
PhD A: This VTS has been proposed by CMU ? Is it is it the CMU ? OK 
PhD B: Originally the idea was from CMU","PhD D brought up a VTS technique to do voice-unvoice which was developed by Jose Carlos Segura, who is a person from Grenada. The professor did not know him, but the inspiration for the VTS had come from CMU."
"Professor C: How is it I I guess I m ignorant about this how does I mean since Wiener filter also assumes that you are that you are adding together the two signals how is how is that differ from signal subspace ? 
PhD A: The signal subspace ? The The signal subspace approach has actually an in built Wiener filtering in it It is like a KL transform followed by a Wiener filter Is the signal is is a signal substrate 
Professor C: Oh oh OK so the difference is the KL 
PhD A: So the the different the c the the advantage of combining two things is mainly coming from the signal subspace approach does not work very well if the SNR is very bad It s it works very poorly with the poor SNR conditions and in colored noise 
Professor C: I see So essentially you could do simple spectral subtraction followed by a KL transform followed by a 
PhD A: Wiener filtering It s a it s a cascade of two s 
Professor C: Wiener filter in general you do not that s right you do not want to othorg orthogonalize if the things are noisy Actually that was something that Herve and I were talking about with the multi band stuff that if you are converting things to from bands groups of bands into cepstral coef you know local sort of local cepstral coefficients that it s not that great to do it if it s noisy","The professor could not see the advantage in combining the Wiener filter and the subspace. He later understood it would be a simple spectral subtraction, followed by a KL transform, followed by a Wiener filter."
"Professor E: Actually it This this maybe brings up another topic which is So we are done with that topic The other topic I was thinking of was the sta status on microphones and channels and all that 
Grad C: actually I I was going to say we need to pause talk about that too 
Professor E: Why why do not we do that 
Grad C: OK the new microphones the two new ones are in pause And they are being assembled as we speak I hope And I did not bring my car today so I m going to pick them up tomorrow and then the other question I was thinking about is well a couple things First of all if the other headsets are a lot more comfortable we should probably just go ahead and get them So we will have to evaluate that when they come in and get people s opinions on on what they think of them then the other question I had is maybe we should get another wireless Another wireless setup I mean it s expensive but it does seem to be pause better than the wired 
Professor E: So how many channels do you get to have in a wireless setup ? 
Grad C: well I m pretty sure that you can daisy chain them together so what we would do is replace the wired mikes with wireless So we currently have one base station with six wireless mike possibility of six wireless receivers and apparently you can chain those together And so we could replace our wired mikes with wireless if we bought another base station and more wireless mikes And So you know it s still it s fifteen minus six 
Professor E: So let s see we 
Grad C: Right ? So we could have up to nine 
Professor E: And right now we can have up to six 
Grad C: Right And we have five we are getting one more And it s about nine hundred dollars for the base station and then eight hundred per channel 
Professor E: Oh So so the only Beyond the mike the cost of the mikes the only thing is the base station that s nine hundred dollars Oh we should do it 
Grad C: OK OK so I will look into how you daisy chain them and and then just go ahead and order them 
PhD B: I do not quite understand how that how that works If So we are not increasing the number of channels OK 
Grad C: No we are just replacing the wired the two wired that are still working along with a couple of the wired that are not working one of the wired that s not working with a wireless I I guess three wireds work","The group discussed recording equipment issues, including the purchase of two additional headsets and the prospect of getting a new base station and a set of wireless microphones to replace those wired microphones currently in use."
"Grad C: along with a couple of the wired that are not working one of the wired that s not working with a wireless I I guess three wireds work 
Professor E: But we ve had more problems with that And that sort of bypasses the whole the whole Jimbox thing and all that And so we we seem to have a reliable way of getting the data in which is through the ra Sony radio mikes as long as we are conscious about the batteries That seems to be the key issue 
Grad C: Everyone s battery OK ? 
PhD B: I checked them this morning they should be 
Professor E: That s the only thing with them But the quality seems really good and I heard from UW that they are they are very close to getting their setup purchased They are they are they are buying something that you can just sort of buy off the shelf 
Grad C: Well we should talk to them about it because I know that SRI is also in the process of looking at stuff and so you know what we should try to keep everyone on the same page with that","Efforts will be made to ensure that recording conventions are consistent across ICSI, the University of Washington, and SRI."
"Postdoc F: Well so should we we do not wan want to do the recording status first or ? 
Grad C: Well we have about thirty two hours as of I guess a week and a half ago so we probably now have about thirty five hours 
Professor E: And and that s that s How much of that is digits ? It s that s including digits 
Grad C: I have not separated it out so I have no clue how much of that is digits 
Professor E: So So anyway there s at least probably thirty hours or something of There s got to be more than thirty hour 
Grad C: Of of non digits ? 
Professor E: i it could not of Of non digits 
Grad C: absolutely I mean the digits do not take up that much time 
Postdoc F: OK and the transcribers h I do not have the exact numbers but I pause think it would come to about eleven hours that are finished transcribing from them right now The next step is to that I m working on is to insure that the data are clean first and then channelized What I mean by clean is that they are spell checked that the mark up is consistent all the way throughout and also that we now incorporate these additional conventions that Liz requested in terms of pause in terms of having a s a systematic handling of numbers and acronyms which I had not been specific about for example i they will say `` ninety two `` And you know so how you could So if you just say `` nine two `` the there are many s ways that could have been expressed An and I just had them I I mean a certain number of them did put the words down but now we have a convention which also involves having it followed by a gloss th and things 
PhD B: one suggestion and you may already be doing this but I ve noticed in the past that when I ve gone through transcriptions and you know in in order to build lexicons and things if you just take all the transcriptions and separate them into words and then alphabetize them comment a lot of times just scanning down that list you will find a lot of pause inconsistencies and mis 
Postdoc F: You are talking about the type token frequency listings and I use those too Y you mean just pause on each on each line there s a one word right ? It s one token from the from the corpus those are e extremely efficient and I and I I agree that s a very good use of it 
PhD B: Oh so you already have that OK 
Postdoc F: Well that s that s a way that s You know the spell check basically does that but but in addition yes that s that s exactly the strategy I want to do in terms of locating these things which are you know colloquial spoken forms which are not in the lexicon 
PhD B: Mm Cuz a lot of times they will appear next to each other and 
Postdoc F: Exactly And then you ca then you can do a s 
PhD B: i in alphabetized lists they will appear next to each other and and so it makes it easier 
Postdoc F: Absolutely I agree That s a very good that s a very good suggestion And that was that s my strategy for handling a lot of these things in terms of things that need to be glossed I did not get to that point but So there are numbers then there are acronyms and then there s a he she wants the actually a an explicit marker of what type of comment this is so i curly b inside the curly brackets I m going to put either `` VOC `` for vocalized like cough or like laugh or whatever `` NONVOC `` for door slam and `` GLOSS `` for things that have to do with if they said a s a spoken form with this m this pronunciation error I already had that convention but I I have not been asking these people to do it systematically cuz I think it most ha most efficiently handled by by a a filter That was what I was always planing on So that you know you get a whole long list exactly what you are saying you get a whole list of things that say `` curly bracket laugh curly bracket `` then y you know it s it s You you risk less error if you handle it by a filter than if you have this transcriber ch laboriously typing in sort of a VOC space so man So many ways that error prone So I m I m going to convert that via a filter into these tagged subcategorized comments and same thing with you know we see you get a subset when you do what you are saying you end up with a s with you are collapsing across a frequency you just have the tokens and you can have a filter which more efficiently makes those changes But the numbers and acronyms have to be handled by hand because you know I mean jus","Approximately 32-35 hours of meeting data have been recorded, roughly 30 hours of which comprise non-digits recordings. The transcribers have begun performing digit extraction (see abstract for Bmr013) and should be finished within a few days. Approximately 11 hours of speech have been transcribed."
"Postdoc F: Well so should we we do not wan want to do the recording status first or ? 
Grad C: Well we have about thirty two hours as of I guess a week and a half ago so we probably now have about thirty five hours 
Professor E: And and that s that s How much of that is digits ? It s that s including digits 
Grad C: I have not separated it out so I have no clue how much of that is digits 
Professor E: So So anyway there s at least probably thirty hours or something of There s got to be more than thirty hour 
Grad C: Of of non digits ? 
Professor E: i it could not of Of non digits 
Grad C: absolutely I mean the digits do not take up that much time 
Postdoc F: OK and the transcribers h I do not have the exact numbers but I pause think it would come to about eleven hours that are finished transcribing from them right now The next step is to that I m working on is to insure that the data are clean first and then channelized What I mean by clean is that they are spell checked that the mark up is consistent all the way throughout and also that we now incorporate these additional conventions that Liz requested in terms of pause in terms of having a s a systematic handling of numbers and acronyms which I had not been specific about for example i they will say `` ninety two `` And you know so how you could So if you just say `` nine two `` the there are many s ways that could have been expressed An and I just had them I I mean a certain number of them did put the words down but now we have a convention which also involves having it followed by a gloss th and things 
PhD B: one suggestion and you may already be doing this but I ve noticed in the past that when I ve gone through transcriptions and you know in in order to build lexicons and things if you just take all the transcriptions and separate them into words and then alphabetize them comment a lot of times just scanning down that list you will find a lot of pause inconsistencies and mis 
Postdoc F: You are talking about the type token frequency listings and I use those too Y you mean just pause on each on each line there s a one word right ? It s one token from the from the corpus those are e extremely efficient and I and I I agree that s a very good use of it 
PhD B: Oh so you already have that OK 
Postdoc F: Well that s that s a way that s You know the spell check basically does that but but in addition yes that s that s exactly the strategy I want to do in terms of locating these things which are you know colloquial spoken forms which are not in the lexicon 
PhD B: Mm Cuz a lot of times they will appear next to each other and 
Postdoc F: Exactly And then you ca then you can do a s 
PhD B: i in alphabetized lists they will appear next to each other and and so it makes it easier 
Postdoc F: Absolutely I agree That s a very good that s a very good suggestion And that was that s my strategy for handling a lot of these things in terms of things that need to be glossed I did not get to that point but So there are numbers then there are acronyms and then there s a he she wants the actually a an explicit marker of what type of comment this is so i curly b inside the curly brackets I m going to put either `` VOC `` for vocalized like cough or like laugh or whatever `` NONVOC `` for door slam and `` GLOSS `` for things that have to do with if they said a s a spoken form with this m this pronunciation error I already had that convention but I I have not been asking these people to do it systematically cuz I think it most ha most efficiently handled by by a a filter That was what I was always planing on So that you know you get a whole long list exactly what you are saying you get a whole list of things that say `` curly bracket laugh curly bracket `` then y you know it s it s You you risk less error if you handle it by a filter than if you have this transcriber ch laboriously typing in sort of a VOC space so man So many ways that error prone So I m I m going to convert that via a filter into these tagged subcategorized comments and same thing with you know we see you get a subset when you do what you are saying you end up with a s with you are collapsing across a frequency you just have the tokens and you can have a filter which more efficiently makes those changes But the numbers and acronyms have to be handled by hand because you know I mean jus 
Grad C: You do not know what they could be 
Postdoc F: now TIMIT s clear pause and PLP is clear but there are things that are not so well known in or or have variant you you uses like the numbers you can say `` nine two `` or you can say `` ninety two `` 
Grad C: So how are you doing the 
Postdoc F: and I would handle the numbers individually 
Grad C: How are you doing the acronyms so if I say PZM what would it appear on the transcript ? 
Postdoc F: It would be separate The letters would be separated in space and potentially they will have a curly bracket thing afterwards e but I m not sure if that s necessary clarifying what it is so gloss of pause whatever I do not know if that s really necessary to do that Maybe it s a nice thing to do because of it then indicating this is a step away from i indicating that it really is intentional that those spaces are there and indicating why they are there to indicate that it s the you know comment enumerated or i it s not a good way of saying but it s it s the specific way of stating these these letters 
Grad C: Right So it sounds good 
Postdoc F: And so anyway the clean those are those things and then channelized is to then get it into this multichannel format And at that point then it s ready for use by Liz and Don But that s been my top priority beyond getting it tanel channelized the next step is to work on tightening up the boundaries of the time bins And Thilo had a e e a breakthrough with this this last week in terms of getting the channel based s s speech nonspeech segmentation up and running and I have not I have not been able to use that yet cuz I m working s re this is my top priority get the data clean and channelized 
Grad C: Have you also been doing spot checks Jane ? 
Postdoc F: Well you see that s part of the cleaning process I spent actually I have a segment of ten minutes that was transcribed by two of our transcribers and I went through it last night it s it s almost spooky how similar these are word for word And there are some differences in commas cuz commas I I left them discretion at commas","Efforts by speaker fe008 are in progress to ensure that transcripts are clean (i.e. spell checked), channelized, and conform to set conventions regarding the coding of numbers, acronyms, and explicit comments (e.g. door slams, coughs, and laughter). Subsequent efforts by speaker fe008 will be to tighten up boundaries on the time bins. Inter-annotator agreement was reported to be very good. Speaker mn014's multi-channel speech/non-speech segmenter is in use."
"Grad E: OK And so I ve tried to come up with some initial things one could observe so who is the user ? Everything that has user comes from the user model everything that has situation comes from the situation model A We should be be clear But when it comes to sort of writing down when you when you do these things is it here ? You sort of have to a write the values this can take And here I was really in some s sometimes I was really sort of standing in front of a wall feeling very stupid because this case it s pretty simple but as we will see the other ones for example if it s a running budget so what are the discrete values of a running budget ? So maybe my understanding there is too impoverished How can I write here that this is something a number that cr keeps on changing ? But OK Thus is understandable ? 
Professor B: You ve s have you seen this before at all Keith these belief net things ? 
Grad A: no but I think I m following it So far 
Grad E: So here is the the we had that the user s budget may influence the outcome of decisions There we wanted to keep sort of a running total of things 
Grad D: Is this like a number that represents how much money they have left to spend ? OK h well I mean how is it different from user finance ? 
Grad E: the finance is sort of here thought of as as the financial policy a person carries out in his life he is he cheap average or spendy ? And I did not come maybe a user I do not know I did not want to write greediness but 
Professor B: So Keith w what s behind this is actually a program that will once you fill all this in actually s solve your belief nets for you and stuff So this is not just a display this is actually a GUI to a simulator that will if we tell it all the right things we will wind up with a functioning belief net at the other end 
Grad E: And it s so simple even I can use it OK so here was OK I can think of people being cheap average or spendy or we can even have a a finer scale moderately cheap does not matter Agree there but here I was not sure what to write in","First, Grad E proposed a question about better discriminating the definition of user and situation models, and it was necessary to set values for the models. Then, they discussed the issues in terms of the user's running budget, which was vital for the outcome of decisions. They tried to design a set of terms to describe the user's financial policy, such as thrift, average, spendy, or more finer scale ones."
"Grad E: And here I was really in some s sometimes I was really sort of standing in front of a wall feeling very stupid because this case it s pretty simple but as we will see the other ones for example if it s a running budget so what are the discrete values of a running budget ? So maybe my understanding there is too impoverished How can I write here that this is something a number that cr keeps on changing ? But OK Thus is understandable ? 
Professor B: You ve s have you seen this before at all Keith these belief net things ? 
Grad A: no but I think I m following it So far 
Grad E: So here is the the we had that the user s budget may influence the outcome of decisions There we wanted to keep sort of a running total of things 
Grad D: Is this like a number that represents how much money they have left to spend ? OK h well I mean how is it different from user finance ? 
Grad E: the finance is sort of here thought of as as the financial policy a person carries out in his life he is he cheap average or spendy ? And I did not come maybe a user I do not know I did not want to write greediness but 
Professor B: So Keith w what s behind this is actually a program that will once you fill all this in actually s solve your belief nets for you and stuff So this is not just a display this is actually a GUI to a simulator that will if we tell it all the right things we will wind up with a functioning belief net at the other end 
Grad E: And it s so simple even I can use it OK so here was OK I can think of people being cheap average or spendy or we can even have a a finer scale moderately cheap does not matter Agree there but here I was not sure what to write in","The reason why they mentioned user budget was that they wanted to take this example to further discuss the value for user model. Also, user budget was an important factor for the outcomes of decisions. Then, they tried to decide which set of words could represent the budget better. Finally, they found that the words that could describe financial policy of users, such as user thrift, was appropriate."
"Grad E: so this might be What next ? 
Professor B: Well you tell me so in terms of the planner what s what s a good one to do ? 
Grad E: Well let s th this go there or not I think is a good one Is a very basic one So what makes things more likely that 
Professor B: Well the fir see the first thing is getting back to thing we left out of the other is the actual discourse So Keith this is going to get into your world because we are going to want to know you know which constructions indicate various of these properties s and so I I do not yet know how to do this I guess we are going to wind up pulling out discourse properties like we have object properties and we do not know what they are yet So that that the Go there decision will have a node from discourse and I guess why do not we just stick a discourse thing up there to be as a placeholder for 
Grad E: We we also had discourse features of course for the endpoint and so again re that s completely correct we have the user model the situation model here we do not have the discourse model here yet Much the same way as we did not we do not have the ontology here 
Professor B: Well the ontology we sort of said we would pull these various kinds of properties from the ontology like exhibiting selling and so forth So in some sense it s it s there But the discourse we do not have it represented at all yet 
Grad E: This be specific for second year ? And and we probably will have something like a discourse for endpoint 
Professor B: But if we do it will have the three values It will have the EVA values if if we have it 
Grad E: OK just for starters and here discourse 
Professor B: For Go there probably is true and false let s say That s what we talked about 
Grad E: well I think we are looking at the the little data that we have so people say how do I get to the castle and this usually means they want to go there So this should sort of push it in one direction however people also sometimes say how do I get there in order to find out how to get there without wanting to go there And sometimes people say where is it because they want to know where it is but in most cases they probably 
Professor B: but that does not change the fact that you are you want these two values 
Grad E: Oh true So this is sort of some external thing that takes all the discourse stuff and then says here it s either pause yep yay A or nay OK ? 
Professor B: And they will be a y a user Go there and maybe that s all I do not know 
Grad D: Situation Go there I mean because it s whether it s open or not But that now that kind of what s the word the that interacts with the EVA thing if they just want to view it then it s fine to go there when it s closed whereas if they want to 
Professor B: Right so that s that s where it starts getting to be essentially more interesting so what Bhaskara says which is completely right is if you know that they are only going to view it then it does not matter whether it s closed or not in terms of you know whether whether you want to go there 
Grad C: It does matter though if there s like a strike or riot or something 
Professor B: Absolutely there are other situational things that do matter 
Grad D: Right So that s what I said just having one situational node may not be enough because this that node by itself would not distinguish 
Professor B: Well i i it can have di various values but we eh you you are right it might not be enough 
Grad D: I mean see I m I m thinking that any node that begins with `` Go there `` is either going to be true or false 
Professor B: Ah I see that could be 
Grad A: Also that node I mean the Go there s S node would just be fed by separate ones for you know there s different things the strikes and the 
Grad D: Like situation traffic and so on 
Professor B: So so now the other thing that Bhaskara eh pointed out is what this says is that there sh should be a link and this is where things are going to get very messy from the endpoint decision maybe the t they are final re and I guess the very bottom endpoint decision to the Go there node And I do not worry about layout I mean then we will go we will go nuts but 
Grad D: Maybe we could have intermediate node that just the Endpoint and the Go there S node sort of fed into ? Right Because that s what we I mean that s why this situation comes up 
Professor B: Well the Go there actually the Endpoint node could feed feed into the Go there S That s right make that up t t to the Go there then and again we will have to do layout at some point but something like that Now it s going to be important not to have loops by the way really important in in the belief worl net world not to have loops 
Grad E: I was just going to How long does it take you to to compute 
Professor B: No it s much worse than that It if i loo it it it it it s not def i it s not well defined if you are there are loops 
Grad D: It things do not converge 
Professor B: you just you have to there are all sorts of ways of breaking it up so that there is not OK 
Grad E: but this is not this is this line is just coming from over here 
Professor B: no it s not a loop yet I m just saying we we in no in 
Grad D: Well but the good thing is we we could have loopy belief propagation which we all love","Grad E proposed the idea that Go-there decision was also worth thinking about. Professor B suggested that the decision could stick to the discourse properties as a placeholder. With regard to the lack of ontologies, Professor B thought that it could use the same properties like exhibiting and selling. Grad E doubted the choice of binary EVA values, but Professor B insisted that it was still necessary to make this choice. Then the group members discussed the layout of belief-nets, for example, the connection between Go-there nodes and other ones such as endpoints. And Professor B reminded me that the belief-nets should not have loops."
"Grad E: so this might be What next ? 
Professor B: Well you tell me so in terms of the planner what s what s a good one to do ? 
Grad E: Well let s th this go there or not I think is a good one Is a very basic one So what makes things more likely that 
Professor B: Well the fir see the first thing is getting back to thing we left out of the other is the actual discourse So Keith this is going to get into your world because we are going to want to know you know which constructions indicate various of these properties s and so I I do not yet know how to do this I guess we are going to wind up pulling out discourse properties like we have object properties and we do not know what they are yet So that that the Go there decision will have a node from discourse and I guess why do not we just stick a discourse thing up there to be as a placeholder for 
Grad E: We we also had discourse features of course for the endpoint and so again re that s completely correct we have the user model the situation model here we do not have the discourse model here yet Much the same way as we did not we do not have the ontology here 
Professor B: Well the ontology we sort of said we would pull these various kinds of properties from the ontology like exhibiting selling and so forth So in some sense it s it s there But the discourse we do not have it represented at all yet 
Grad E: This be specific for second year ? And and we probably will have something like a discourse for endpoint 
Professor B: But if we do it will have the three values It will have the EVA values if if we have it 
Grad E: OK just for starters and here discourse 
Professor B: For Go there probably is true and false let s say That s what we talked about 
Grad E: well I think we are looking at the the little data that we have so people say how do I get to the castle and this usually means they want to go there So this should sort of push it in one direction however people also sometimes say how do I get there in order to find out how to get there without wanting to go there And sometimes people say where is it because they want to know where it is but in most cases they probably 
Professor B: but that does not change the fact that you are you want these two values 
Grad E: Oh true So this is sort of some external thing that takes all the discourse stuff and then says here it s either pause yep yay A or nay OK ? 
Professor B: And they will be a y a user Go there and maybe that s all I do not know 
Grad D: Situation Go there I mean because it s whether it s open or not But that now that kind of what s the word the that interacts with the EVA thing if they just want to view it then it s fine to go there when it s closed whereas if they want to 
Professor B: Right so that s that s where it starts getting to be essentially more interesting so what Bhaskara says which is completely right is if you know that they are only going to view it then it does not matter whether it s closed or not in terms of you know whether whether you want to go there 
Grad C: It does matter though if there s like a strike or riot or something 
Professor B: Absolutely there are other situational things that do matter 
Grad D: Right So that s what I said just having one situational node may not be enough because this that node by itself would not distinguish 
Professor B: Well i i it can have di various values but we eh you you are right it might not be enough 
Grad D: I mean see I m I m thinking that any node that begins with `` Go there `` is either going to be true or false 
Professor B: Ah I see that could be 
Grad A: Also that node I mean the Go there s S node would just be fed by separate ones for you know there s different things the strikes and the 
Grad D: Like situation traffic and so on 
Professor B: So so now the other thing that Bhaskara eh pointed out is what this says is that there sh should be a link and this is where things are going to get very messy from the endpoint decision maybe the t they are final re and I guess the very bottom endpoint decision to the Go there node And I do not worry about layout I mean then we will go we will go nuts but 
Grad D: Maybe we could have intermediate node that just the Endpoint and the Go there S node sort of fed into ? Right Because that s what we I mean that s why this situation comes up 
Professor B: Well the Go there actually the Endpoint node could feed feed into the Go there S That s right make that up t t to the Go there then and again we will have to do layout at some point but something like that Now it s going to be important not to have loops by the way really important in in the belief worl net world not to have loops 
Grad E: I was just going to How long does it take you to to compute 
Professor B: No it s much worse than that It if i loo it it it it it s not def i it s not well defined if you are there are loops 
Grad D: It things do not converge 
Professor B: you just you have to there are all sorts of ways of breaking it up so that there is not OK 
Grad E: but this is not this is this line is just coming from over here 
Professor B: no it s not a loop yet I m just saying we we in no in 
Grad D: Well but the good thing is we we could have loopy belief propagation which we all love","Grad E first started the topic about Go-there decision, and then proposed the question about how to represent discourse. Though Professor B insisted on using true-and-false values, Grad E challenged Professor B's opinion by taking examples about whether people really wanted to go some place or not when they asked how to get there."
"Professor B: Alright so e we have to figure out some eh eh basically display hack or something to do this because anyway I I let me consi suggest that s a s not a first order consideration we have two first order considerations which is what are the influences A A and B how do they get combined mathematically how do we display them is an issue but 
Grad C: I do not I just do not think this has been designed to support something like that 
Grad D: I I mean it might soon if this is going to be used in a serious way like java base then it might soon be necessary to start modifying it for our purposes 
Professor B: Right and I that seems like a perfectly feasible thing to get into but we have to know what we want first OK so why do not you tell us a little bit about decision nodes and what what the choices might be for these ? 
Grad D: So Ah sorry I guess that s 
Grad C: You can technically wear that as you are talking 
Grad D: it s right I guess I can do that I guess this board works fine So recall the basic problem which is that you have a belief net and you have like a lot of different nodes all contributing to one node Right ? So as we discussed specifying this kind of thing is a big pain and it s so will take a long time to write down because for example if these S have three possibilities each and this has three possibilities then you know you have two hundred and forty three possibilities which is already a lot of numbers to write down So what helps us in our situation is that these all have values in the same set right ? These are all like saying EV or A right ? So it s not just a generalized situation like I mean basically we want to just take a combination of we want to view each of these as experts ea who are each of them is making a decision based on some factors and we want to sort of combine their decisions and create you know sorta weighted combination 
Grad E: ROVER All of their outputs combined to make a decision 
Grad D: So the problem is to specify the so the conditional property of this given all those right ? That s the way belief nets are defined like each node given its parents right ? So that s what we want we want for example P of let s call this guy Y and let s call these X one X two XN right So we want probability that Y equals you know for example E given that these guys are I will just refer to this as like X hat or something the co like all of them ? Given that for example the data says you know A V A E or something right ? So we would like to do this kind of combination 
Professor B: Alright so Is that I I just want to make sure everybody is with us before he goes on It s it s cl e is is it clear what he wants to compute ? 
Grad D: Right So right So Basically what we do not want to do is to for every single combination of E and V and A and every single letter E s give a number because that s obviously not desirable What we want to do is find some principled way of saying what each of these is and we want it to be a valid probability distribution so we want it to add up to one right ? So those are the two things that we need So what I guess what Jerry suggested earlier was basically that we you know view these guys as voting and we just take the we essentially take averages right ? So for example here two people have voted for A one has voted for V and one has voted for E so we could say that the probabilities are you know probability of being E is one over four because one person voted for E out of four and similarly probability of so this is probability of E s and then probability of A given all that is two out of four and probability of V is one out of four Right ? So that s step that s the that s the that s the basic thing Now Is that all OK ? 
Grad E: And that one outcome that s it s X X one voted for A X two voted for V 
Professor B: S so this assumes symmetry and equal weights and all this sort of things which may or may not be a good assumption 
Grad D: So step two is right So we ve assumed equal weights whereas it might turn out that you know some w be that for example what the the actual the verbal content of what the person said like what what might be somehow more important than the 
Grad C: X one matters more i than X two or 
Grad D: Right Sure so we do not want to like give them all equal weight so currently we ve been giving them all weight one fourth so we could replace this by W one W two W three and W four right ? And in order for this to be a valid probability distribution for each X hat we just need that the W s sum to one So they can be for example you know you you could have point one point three point two and point four say And that would be one So that also seems to work fine And 
Grad C: So I jus just to make sure I understand this so in this case we would still compute the average ? 
Grad D: You would compute the weighted average so the probability of E would be 
Grad C: OK so so it would be so in this case the probability that Y equals A would be comment W one times or A or let s see one full quarter times point one 
Grad D: so these numbers have been replaced with point one point three point two and point four So you can view these as gone OK So alright So this is step two So the next possibility is that we ve given just a single weight to each expert right whereas it might be the case that in certain situations one of the experts is more reliable and in certain situations the other expert is more reliable So the way this is handled is by what s called a mixture of experts so what you can have is you augment these diagrams like this so you have a new thing called `` H `` OK ? This is a hidden variable And what this is is it gets its input from X one X two X three and X four and what it does is it decides which of the experts is to be trusted in this particular situation Right ? And then these guys all come here OK So this is sightly more complicated So what s going on is that this H node looks at these four values of those guys and it decides in given these values which of these is not likely to be more reliable or most reliable So H produces some you know it produces a number either one two three or four in our situation right ? Now this guy he looks at the value of H say it s two and then he just selects the thing That s all there is to say I guess about it Right so you can have a mixture that 
Grad A: So so the function of the thing that comes out of H is very different from the function of the other inputs It s driving how the other four are interpreted OK 
Grad C: So H passes a vector on to the next node ? It could ? A vector of the weights as the se 
Grad A: Well a vector with three zero s and one one right ? 
Grad C: Oh it s basically to tell the bottom node which one of the situations that it s in or which one of the weighting systems 
Grad D: Right so I mean the way you desc 
Grad C: W I was just if you wanted to pay attention to more than one you could pass a w a weighting s system though too could not you ? OK 
Grad A: Does H have to have another input to tell it alpha beta whatever or is the that s determined by what the experts are saying like the type of situ OK OK OK I mean It it just seems that like without that that outside input that you ve got a situation where you know like if if X one says no you know a low value coming out of X on or i if X one says no then ignore X one you know I mean that seems like that would be weird 
Grad D: well could be things like if X two and X three say yes then i ignore X one also 
Grad A: right ? Oh OK OK Alright right 
Grad C: Oh The situations that H has are they built into the net or OK so they they could either be hand coded or learned or OK Based on training data OK So you specify one of these things for every one of those possi possible situations Oh","Professor B first emphasized the necessity of combining influences mathematically and asked Grad D to further explain the potential solutions. Then the students discussed the computation methods including weighted combination and mixture of experts, based on the mechanism of belief-nets. But there was no consensus on which method should be applied in belief-nets."
"Grad D: OK So alright So this is step two So the next possibility is that we ve given just a single weight to each expert right whereas it might be the case that in certain situations one of the experts is more reliable and in certain situations the other expert is more reliable So the way this is handled is by what s called a mixture of experts so what you can have is you augment these diagrams like this so you have a new thing called `` H `` OK ? This is a hidden variable And what this is is it gets its input from X one X two X three and X four and what it does is it decides which of the experts is to be trusted in this particular situation Right ? And then these guys all come here OK So this is sightly more complicated So what s going on is that this H node looks at these four values of those guys and it decides in given these values which of these is not likely to be more reliable or most reliable So H produces some you know it produces a number either one two three or four in our situation right ? Now this guy he looks at the value of H say it s two and then he just selects the thing That s all there is to say I guess about it Right so you can have a mixture that 
Grad A: So so the function of the thing that comes out of H is very different from the function of the other inputs It s driving how the other four are interpreted OK 
Grad C: So H passes a vector on to the next node ? It could ? A vector of the weights as the se 
Grad A: Well a vector with three zero s and one one right ? 
Grad C: Oh it s basically to tell the bottom node which one of the situations that it s in or which one of the weighting systems 
Grad D: Right so I mean the way you desc 
Grad C: W I was just if you wanted to pay attention to more than one you could pass a w a weighting s system though too could not you ? OK 
Grad A: Does H have to have another input to tell it alpha beta whatever or is the that s determined by what the experts are saying like the type of situ OK OK OK I mean It it just seems that like without that that outside input that you ve got a situation where you know like if if X one says no you know a low value coming out of X on or i if X one says no then ignore X one you know I mean that seems like that would be weird 
Grad D: well could be things like if X two and X three say yes then i ignore X one also 
Grad A: right ? Oh OK OK Alright right 
Grad C: Oh The situations that H has are they built into the net or OK so they they could either be hand coded or learned or OK Based on training data OK So you specify one of these things for every one of those possi possible situations Oh",Grad D first said that different experts were reliable in different situations and it was necessary to organically combine them to make the network adapt to diverse situations. The network could be divided into several parts and the network would decide which of the experts would be trusted in this particular situation. Grad D then answered other group members' questions about the layout of mixture of expert models and their detailed computation process.
"User Interface: so The first I will present the technical function design for user interface for our remote TV control I I will focus on user interface design so move to the next slide As we know our remote c rem remote TV control it is very has very soph sophisticated functions as we show from this picture There is a lot of functions Over I think over s twelve or twenty s functions of a remote TV control So how can we design a user interface with so sa with so many sophisticated functions ? let us move to next slide So I so we want to design elegant easy to use inter interface A very good example is Google As we know Google it is a very successful because his powerful function but with very easy to use user interface so move to next s slide So my job is to design a Google TV controller which I want to have sophisticated functions while with very easy to use user interface So That is the end of the talk the end of the presentation 
Project Manager: So you propose to to have the remote control which will be powerful many functions and very easy to use 
Marketing: So I do not know it is maybe difficult to have both 
Industrial Designer: To merge the two system huh 
Marketing: I mean the the one on the right does not look so simple 
Project Manager: You mean this one ? you have to learn the manual before using this remote control I suppose 
User Interface: But if we have very very good user interface it take less time for user to learn how to use it 
Industrial Designer: you maybe you have some international standards where you know if you can use one is the other are or almost the same so the sign 
Project Manager: Oh you mean for the pic pictograms or things like that ? 
Industrial Designer: For example I do not know here escape you know you have escape in computers you have so if you see escape you know that it should be the same 
Marketing: Oh it should The user should know 
Industrial Designer: So you have to The sh the user there for example the power off button it is something very international you know that So 
Project Manager: Go on go back and 
Industrial Designer: but the question is how to merge you know the Google system to the system alright 
Marketing: that is going to be the trick 
User Interface: That is my job It is not the easiest I have got to 
Project Manager: So you will propose us something which is so powerful and easy to use 
User Interface: Powerful and easy to use 
Marketing: So that is the point","Based on the presentations of the user interface designer, the industrial designer and the marketing expert which were about the product requirements, the project manager concluded that the new remote control should be powerful, easy to use, fashionable, recognizable and only for television. Furthermore, the remote control should use the Internet rather than teletext due to the spread of the Internet."
"User Interface: so move to the next slide As we know our remote c rem remote TV control it is very has very soph sophisticated functions as we show from this picture There is a lot of functions Over I think over s twelve or twenty s functions of a remote TV control So how can we design a user interface with so sa with so many sophisticated functions ? let us move to next slide So I so we want to design elegant easy to use inter interface A very good example is Google As we know Google it is a very successful because his powerful function but with very easy to use user interface so move to next s slide So my job is to design a Google TV controller which I want to have sophisticated functions while with very easy to use user interface So That is the end of the talk the end of the presentation 
Project Manager: So you propose to to have the remote control which will be powerful many functions and very easy to use 
Marketing: So I do not know it is maybe difficult to have both 
Industrial Designer: To merge the two system huh 
Marketing: I mean the the one on the right does not look so simple 
Project Manager: You mean this one ? you have to learn the manual before using this remote control I suppose 
User Interface: But if we have very very good user interface it take less time for user to learn how to use it 
Industrial Designer: you maybe you have some international standards where you know if you can use one is the other are or almost the same so the sign 
Project Manager: Oh you mean for the pic pictograms or things like that ? 
Industrial Designer: For example I do not know here escape you know you have escape in computers you have so if you see escape you know that it should be the same 
Marketing: Oh it should The user should know 
Industrial Designer: So you have to The sh the user there for example the power off button it is something very international you know that So","The user interface designer recommended to design a Google TV controller because Google was very successful for its powerful functions and friendly user interface. Also, to make the customers able to use the product without learning the manual, the industrial designer suggested applying some international standards such as some pictograms."
"Industrial Designer: because what I am thinking is how will you will connect the TV to internet so 
Marketing: I do not think it is part of the remote control design anyway It is maybe more in browsing 
Industrial Designer: but this this mean that your TV would be able to you know connect to internet you know surf the web 
User Interface: there is that box in o of it A pi There is that box in the TV so with the set box you you can connect internet with your TV It is It is not so popular now 
Industrial Designer: It is pop I do not think it is popular so that is the problem so You had i if you are designing a remote control for you know so if people do not have the technology 
Project Manager: So everybody is with the new requirements ?","The industrial designer expressed concern about how to connect TV to the Internet and the user interface designer said a set box would enable TV to surf the Internet. However, the technology was not very popular, which might be an obstacle for global usage of the product."
"Project Manager: So next I propose the Industrial User Interface to present things 
Industrial Designer: The rationale must be design or 
Project Manager: So Baba is the the Industrial Designer 
Industrial Designer: So we can move to the next slide As you all know you know m my job is to design you know to give an industrial design of the remote control So the re basically the remote control will be you know infrared control so the problem is how to relate the how to relate the remote control device like for example this one I h I am holding in my hand and the TV So this one is leather bu based but I propose a nifra infrared base you know so so for me I think that it is better it is bet it is better to control TV so you know so it is it will be cheaper and it is less technology than you know For the cheap price we have for the cheap price we want to 
Project Manager: So you mean that infrared control is a cheap technology ? 
Industrial Designer: I think it is cheaper than laser so 
Project Manager: Do y you know the requirements for the remote control ? Twelve nearly thirteen 
Marketing: What the cost is ? 
Industrial Designer: I think for the cost we want for the cost we want it is better to have Let us see You can move to the next slide so So the di the differen the findings you know what you find inside the re i the the system here inside it is just you know a bulb and an infrared bulb so here for example the infrared bulb will be here and the bulb it will be somewhere inside You can go to the next slide I have some kind of pictures you know here You have the b the bulb it is a blue the blue stuff here and the infrared and the infrared bulb it is the red stuff you know and so and you have the other subcomponent that are not really here so important so This is in fact some other component that are in between the electrical de the electronic device Look But here what I wanted to emphasise it is just you know the bulb and So and the next slide it is the last one it is So it is I think it should be wire wireless re remote con Because you know it is easier to manage and you know because you f the b the the battery problem can hold you know will you use a battery or the a wire to connected you Or maybe some kind of thing that we can have both but you know I at my side prefer a wireless so if you have some question I did not answer ? 
Marketing: What is the average price of this technology then ? 
Industrial Designer: Well the avera the average prices I think that this technology will cost I do not know around eight Euros so Or at least you know the 
User Interface: So what the wireless remote control ? There is a wire with remote control ? 
Industrial Designer: You would yes you can It is so so bres you have to decide how how you will you know put some energy inside so you can think about wireless or you know it is it is a question that we can raise so We can think that you know with the wire you know without a wire We can have both also 
Project Manager: So you think that a cable between the remote control and the TV will not be a good idea No it wou maybe it will be cheaper I do not know I just may maybe you making a solu 
Marketing: But this is what you would like to ask the user first and I do not think the user would be ready to have a I do not think well I do not think he would 
Industrial Designer: but some pa I always want to have you know sometime I want to have wire because you know 
Project Manager: but as Industrial Designer do you think that it will be feasible to have linked or to have link between the remote control and the television ? I am just asking you Do you think it will be cheaper ? 
Industrial Designer: I do not think it will be too much 
Project Manager: Could you answer please ? 
Industrial Designer: Have to think about the question you know because it is I think that you know you can always you know I think wha wha with the wire it is mm cheaper but you know the wireless it is more practical so 
Project Manager: but I think the wireless problem is more the David Jordans problem I think it is more your problem Mayb maybe you have just to to kind of research or try to ask people if they will like something wireless or not 
Marketing: that is my job That is the 
Industrial Designer: but it should be an agreement you know because even if you can think of the wireless it is it is it is the job of the the the g Graphical User Designer but you know If it is a lot cheaper and if you want to reach for example some the the money you have if you want to use so it can be good to have a wireless it it is a question 
Project Manager: just think of the usability 
User Interface: Design a wireless remote control 
Project Manager: Just think of the problem If when you have wireless remote control and if you lose it ? I think it is would be easier to have a link between the remote control and the television 
Marketing: Well that is actually one of the point ? True This you will see in my presentation then","The group reached the agreement to design an infrared-based controller because it was cheaper than a laser. Secondly, the industrial designer preferred a wireless remote control as it was easier to manage but the suggestion was doubted by the marketing and the project manager considering the cost and user requirements. Another thing was about the buttons. The marketing advised having less buttons because only ten percent of the buttons were actually in use and people tended to zap a lot."
"Industrial Designer: Well the avera the average prices I think that this technology will cost I do not know around eight Euros so Or at least you know the 
User Interface: So what the wireless remote control ? There is a wire with remote control ? 
Industrial Designer: You would yes you can It is so so bres you have to decide how how you will you know put some energy inside so you can think about wireless or you know it is it is a question that we can raise so We can think that you know with the wire you know without a wire We can have both also 
Project Manager: So you think that a cable between the remote control and the TV will not be a good idea No it wou maybe it will be cheaper I do not know I just may maybe you making a solu 
Marketing: But this is what you would like to ask the user first and I do not think the user would be ready to have a I do not think well I do not think he would 
Industrial Designer: but some pa I always want to have you know sometime I want to have wire because you know 
Project Manager: but as Industrial Designer do you think that it will be feasible to have linked or to have link between the remote control and the television ? I am just asking you Do you think it will be cheaper ? 
Industrial Designer: I do not think it will be too much 
Project Manager: Could you answer please ? 
Industrial Designer: Have to think about the question you know because it is I think that you know you can always you know I think wha wha with the wire it is mm cheaper but you know the wireless it is more practical so 
Project Manager: but I think the wireless problem is more the David Jordans problem I think it is more your problem Mayb maybe you have just to to kind of research or try to ask people if they will like something wireless or not 
Marketing: that is my job That is the 
Industrial Designer: but it should be an agreement you know because even if you can think of the wireless it is it is it is the job of the the the g Graphical User Designer but you know If it is a lot cheaper and if you want to reach for example some the the money you have if you want to use so it can be good to have a wireless it it is a question 
Project Manager: just think of the usability 
User Interface: Design a wireless remote control 
Project Manager: Just think of the problem If when you have wireless remote control and if you lose it ? I think it is would be easier to have a link between the remote control and the television","Firstly, the industrial designer said the wireless technology would cost 8 Euros which was higher than the manager's expectation. Secondly, whether the users would like to have a wireless control or not was unknown and the marketing would go to figure it out. Finally, having a link between the remote control and the television would prevent control from losing."
"Project Manager: Mm And just to have an idea do you think you as the User Interface Designer to would it be possible to have less buttons and still have the same functionality and to have powerful remote control you think it is possible ? 
User Interface: I think possible Because we can We can mix several function in one button So let us you then you have less buttons 
Project Manager: but do you think it will be easy to use ? 
User Interface: But I am not sure 
Project Manager: Because if you have many functions just for one button it would be quite difficult for the user to know 
Marketing: remember the user is not happy to read the 
User Interface: No you you can have a switch menu so you can 
Project Manager: but it has to be intuitive 
User Interface: well for example I think so Like for for example you can you can category the function i i into several classes Then for you can have a switch menu so you put the switch menu to it it tend to this kind of this category of functions Then you you put the switch button then it switch to another category of functions For example if you have remote control you you can rem you can control your TV and also you can control your recorder So there is a different functions but i if you you there is a button you can switch between control TV and control your recorder So we can has less buttons","The industrial designer recommended mixing several functions in one button by having a switch menu. For example, the category the functions into several classes and link switch menu to this kind of this category of functions."
"Marketing: Sorry for the functional recurrence So that is the standard method for marketing We had one hundred subjects we observe their remote control use in a lab and then after all the experiments they had to fill up a questionnaire and see what was or not for them So then it is some statistics about what we observed and what they answered actually seventy five percent of the users find m the most remote controls ugly so that is 
Project Manager: You mean the loo the look the outside ? 
Industrial Designer: The look how it look like 
Marketing: the the look is is bad for them so it is your job David maybe Then eighty percent of users would spend more money actually if if the remote controls were not so ugly So this is where we could have good market I guess if people are ready to pay more","Based on earlier experiments and questionnaires, the marketing found that seventy-five percent of the users thought most remote controls ugly. Thus, the group decided to make the product look fancy so that people would pay more. However, how to make remote control look fancy was a big problem because different people have different opinions about fancy. What's more, the project manager thought the product should be recognizable and attractive."
"User Interface: Because maybe a colourful is fancy for some people but maybe simple and uniform colourful is fancy for some for other peoples so 
Marketing: But this was first step and This was the first step 
Industrial Designer: I think the solution is to have many colours of you know instead of having one grey standard 
Project Manager: but I think it will increase the price of the production of the remote control If you need to have special colours for remote controls it will cost more 
User Interface: personalised colour Because you know 
Project Manager: it will cost little bit more 
User Interface: because maybe some people prefer a red remote control some people prefer black remote control 
Marketing: but this is what we would ask to the users so 
User Interface: Maybe we can have di di we can have several options so user can select which colour they prefer so","They thought in order to make the product look fancy, the product should have many colours instead of having one grey standard to meet different customers' needs."
"Project Manager: but I think it will increase the price of the production of the remote control If you need to have special colours for remote controls it will cost more 
User Interface: personalised colour Because you know 
Project Manager: it will cost little bit more 
User Interface: because maybe some people prefer a red remote control some people prefer black remote control 
Marketing: but this is what we would ask to the users so 
User Interface: Maybe we can have di di we can have several options so user can select which colour they prefer so 
Project Manager: but as soon as you speak about options it means that the price increases 
Marketing: remember it is twelve Euros 
Project Manager: and we do not really want the price to be too too high because we want to be able to produce it So we want something fancy as previously said Florent something very easy to use powerful and also as it is written here seventy five percent of users they zap lot so maybe just having many functions in one button is not that good if you want to zap a lot","The project manager agreed that the product should be good-looking but having many colours wasn't a good idea because it would increase the product cost. Also, the project manager thought the remote control should be marked with the image of the society so that one can recognize it at a glance."
"Mr. Paul Lefebvre (Sudbury, Lib.): Mr Chair I just want to say thank you to the industrious people of Sudbury who have risen to the challenge and joined forces in the face of COVID19 I am proud of all my constituents and all Canadians including first responders volunteers health care and essential workers local miners the farmers and produce growers who are feeding our families and local businesses who are staying connected with their staff I also salute all our homegrown innovations such as ProStitch and King Sportswear face masks Crosscut Distillery hand sanitizer Nobel Prize winner SNOLABs work on ventilators which earned a federal contract Vale Canadas 1 million in seed capital to small firms developing COVID19 health solutions and many more We are all in the same boat but we will get out of it together 
The Chair: We will now go to Mr Dalton 
Mr. Marc Dalton (Pitt MeadowsMaple Ridge, CPC): Mr Chair Pitt Meadows is one of Canadas most beautiful communities It is tucked in between the Fraser and Pitt rivers and is in the shadow of Golden Ears mountain Most of the area consists of farmland golf courses parks and conservation areas It also has Pitt Lake which is among the largest freshwater tidal lakes in the world Pitt Meadows history dates back thousands of years with Katzie First Nation In the 1900s Dutch immigrants drained and diked the marshes allowing for todays bumper crops of cranberries and blueberries It is hard to believe that this community is only a short commute to Vancouver and has one of the nations busiest general aviation airports Last weekend the community came together to celebrate Pitt Meadows Day a little differently because of COVID In a great show of community spirit from their front yards and balconies thousands of residents came out to cheer for first responders and essential workers as we paraded throughout the city I am thankful to have raised my family here taught in the schools and to now be the member of Parliament representing this wonderful community 
The Chair: We will now go to Mr Kelloway 
Mr. Mike Kelloway (Cape BretonCanso, Lib.): Mr Chair over the last few months I have watched constituents in my riding come together to look out for one another during these challenging times Regardless of how deep and painful this pandemic has been it continues to amaze me just how brightly the collective character of Cape BretonCanso shines through Whether it is someone like Glen Muise who delivers iPads to seniors homes so they can connect with loved ones teachers who deliver meals to students in need Liam and Lucus Sakalauskas two young boys who keep youth informed across the east coast or Rose Fitzgerald who delivered bouquets made from the remaining flowers from her shop to essential workers across her county constituents in Cape BretonCanso have stepped up to support their community and to support those in need Mr Chair as you know it is with great pride that I represent my constituents in Cape BretonCanso The people in Cape Breton and northeastern Nova Scotia care deeply about one another They know that as a community we are only as strong as our most vulnerable people and I can not help but be filled with joy when I see these gestures happening across my riding Thanks so much 
Ms. Sylvie Brub (AbitibiBaie-JamesNunavikEeyou, BQ): MrChair unacceptable incidents of police brutality against aboriginals have prompted former member Romeo Saganash whose commitment I commend to call for a commission of inquiry similar to the Viens commission in Quebec The Bloc is open to the idea but we should not wait for such an inquiry to be recommended to take action There are already potential solutions for taking action Commissions have been issuing reports for decades and Ottawa has been tabling them Last year alone the Viens report and the report stemming from the National Inquiry into Missing and Murdered Indigenous Women and Girls contained dozens of recommendations The federal government must work with indigenous peoples Quebec and the provinces to establish adequate funding for indigenous police forces Civilian ethics organizations should be created to oversee the RCMP Police officers and the general population must be better educated on indigenous realities and cultures Hundreds of pages must be written and actions taken to restore confidence in law enforcement so as to achieve the longoverdue reconciliation Let us take action 
The Chair: I give the floor to MrMacKinnon 
Mr. Steven MacKinnon (Gatineau, Lib.): MrChair on behalf of myself and my parliamentary colleagues I want to congratulate students from our high school class of 2020 We know that owing to the pandemic graduation celebrations will be different this year as students will be deprived of their prom their graduation ceremony and in some cases their goodbyes to friends and teachers I know how disappointed students from the high schools of duVersant LeCarrefour NicolasGatineau de lrablire Collge SaintAlexandre Collge Nouvelles Frontires Collge SaintJoseph PhilemonWright and other regional schools are not to be able to celebrate their five years of incredible efforts surrounded by their families and friends who were by their side on a daily basis However that takes nothing away from their accomplishment So when they receive their diploma here is what I will say to them : Surge ahead ! The future belongs to you Be ambitious follow your dreams and most importantly continue to change the Outaouais and the world ! The class of 2020 will be remembered for a long time 
The Chair: We will now go to Mr Morantz 
Mr. Marty Morantz (CharleswoodSt. JamesAssiniboiaHeadingley, CPC): Mr Chair I am delighted to rise to talk about the Bruce Oake Recovery Centre which is now under construction in my riding in Winnipeg This stateoftheart addictions recovery facility was made into a reality by Scott Anne and Darcy Oake in memory of their son and brother Bruce who passed away tragically from an accidental overdose in 2011 The Bruce Oake Recovery Centre will provide help to thousands of Manitobans to manage their addiction and reintegrate into the community I was proud to support this project when I voted for it during my time on Winnipeg City Council The addictions crisis in Canada needs action With approximately eight million Canadians suffering from addictions we need centres like these to help them recover so that no other family will face a heartbreaking loss due to addiction I want to congratulate the Oakes for their commitment to making recovery for many a reality Addictions affect us all and we all have a part to play in contributing to the solution 
The Chair: We will now go to Mr Jowhari 
Mr. Majid Jowhari (Richmond Hill, Lib.): Mr Chair I would like to recognize the compassion and generosity demonstrated in my riding of Richmond Hill Week after week residents and organizations have come together to support our most vulnerable during a time of great difficulty I want to thank the champions of the community who were generous enough to donate masks and other supplies as well as services I would also like to recognize the charities and care centres which upon receiving these donations redoubled their efforts to serve their communities Special thanks go to the Mon Sheong Foundation LongTerm Care Centre Divine Favour Senior Homecare the Community Home Assistance to Seniors the True Compassion Home Health centre Blue Door the Mosaic Interfaith Out of the Cold program Yellow Brick House Hill House Hospice Community Living York South and Parya Trillium Foundation for continuing to support the residents in my riding of Richmond Hill The compassionate generosity demonstrated by these donors and organizations makes me proud to represent my community in Parliament 
The Chair: We will now go to Madam Lalonde 
Mrs. Marie-France Lalonde (Orlans, Lib.): Thank you MrChair Usually at this time of the year I have the pleasure of being invited to the graduation ceremony of the grade12 students in Orlans However we will all have to adapt to a new reality this year I can not express enough how in these exceptional times I have witnessed the strength resilience and community spirit of our graduates I also know that a number of high schools have made significant efforts to celebrate the success of their graduating class Young graduate Maryanne Collard was amazed to see that people from her school the cole secondaire catholique BatriceDesloges had installed a sign in her garden to congratulate her on her academic success As we move forward we must not forget that youth in this country are our future We have a responsibility to be there for them and to believe in them We will not fail I thank the teachers the support staff and school management who are continuing to do their work Congratulations to all graduates of 2020 
The Chair: We will now go to Mr Vis 
Mr. Brad Vis (MissionMatsquiFraser Canyon, CPC): Mr Chair COVID19 has changed and challenged how we go about our daily lives For many this includes a shift to working from home or attending school remotely The sad reality is that even before the crisis hit most rural Canadians simply did not have access to a strong and stable Internet connection even though Internet is an essential service Those in underserved areas including many parts of MissionMatsquiFraser Canyon can not work from home and their children can not keep up with their classmates For many of my indigenous constituents Internet services are stuck in the 1990s because telecom companies do not want to serve them I along with my colleagues launched community consultations to address this critical issue and provide solutions We call on the government to outline and implement a concrete action plan to address Internet connectivity deficits between rural and urban Canada This is an issue I will continue to press on until results are achieved 
The Chair: We will now go to Mr McLeod 
Mr. Michael McLeod (Northwest Territories, Lib.): Mr Chair Canada has been awarded its firstever Equator Prize from the United Nations Development Programme Congratulations go to Lutsl K Dene First Nation and the Northwest Territory Mtis Nation with support from Deninu Kue First Nation and the Yellowknives Dene First Nation for the establishment of the Thaidene Nn territorial protected area It is 14000 square kilometres of the most beautiful land and waters you will find anywhere on earth I would also like to thank the previous minister of the environment for securing Canadas 79million commitment along with our visit to celebrate the new park last year The award is given to groups that have exemplified actions to protect critical ecosystems and biodiversity for generations to come and to show how indigenous peoples and local communities have confronted legacies of disadvantage and discrimination in support of their communities and the world at large Congratulations to Lutsl K 
The Chair: We will now go to Ms Falk 
Mrs. Rosemarie Falk (BattlefordsLloydminster, CPC): Mr Chair the Liberal government has tabled 87 billion in spending and allocated just four hours for Parliament to study debate and pass it The allocated time is wholly inadequate Canadians deserve to know how that money is being spent They deserve to know that this government spending was scrutinized and passed through the rigours of Parliament It is Canadian taxpayers of today and tomorrow who will have the responsibility to pay for this governments spending It is Canadian workers and businesses who will have to do the hard work of rebuilding our economy It is real Canadians who fall through the cracks when this Liberal governments programs fail to meet their intended goals A rubber stamp under the guise of health and safety is not democracy Canadians are owed better Just as we gather four days a week for a hybrid committee meeting parliamentarians can gather to do the full scope of the work that Canadians elected us to do 
The Chair: We now go to Mr Godin 
Mr. Jol Godin (PortneufJacques-Cartier, CPC): Thank you MrChair Our planet is dealing with the COVID19 pandemic Our daily lives have been turned upside down I am thinking of you our seniors valuable individuals who built our country You have gone through a very restrictive confinement You have had to sacrifice time spent with your families Our students also had to adapt Their school year was turned on its head Our graduating class especially saw their dream of a proper graduation vanish The future belongs to them They must follow their dreams I want to say to all the essential staff and the many support organizations that they are really changing things We have all taken on our important responsibility that of following the guidelines The results have been most compelling in my riding I want to say how proud I am to represent you here in the Canadian Parliament I thank each and everyone of you You are helping PortneufJacquesCartier flourish You have shown resilience creativity innovation and solidarity That is commendable Together we will get through this ordeal and come out stronger 
The Chair: We will now go to Ms Gazan 
Ms. Leah Gazan (Winnipeg Centre, NDP): Mr Chair today I rise to honour Justice 4 Black Lives Winnipeg led by women and nonbinary individuals who stood together and mobilized our city to state clearly that we will not stand by and stay silent in the face of police brutality We will not stand by in the face of systemic racism We will not stand by while we witness our bodies being abused by centuries of racism supported through legislation that has left us vulnerable at the hands of those who abuse their power We will speak out against police violence We will speak out against systemic racism We will join together to ensure that laws are instituted that are designed to protect us not abuse us We will call out those who abuse their power We will rise We will rise We will rise To all the women and nonbinary folks who are standing I say let us continue to sound our voices in solidarity and support of one another until indigenous and black lives are honoured and respected Our liberation is intertwined Solidarity 
Mrs. Claude DeBellefeuille (SalaberrySurot, BQ): MrChair this is not the time for governments to get complacent about COVID19 However the last few days have shown that we are once again dealing with a reckless Prime Minister First he locked down Parliament to avoid being accountable to the opposition while the economic recovery must be prepared He is refusing to provide an economic update even though the Parliamentary Budget Officer is calling for it We need to know how much flexibility we have in case of a second wave of the pandemic He is refusing to hold a first ministers meeting on unconditional health transfers The increase Quebec needs is for hiring health care staff before a second wave and not after it Finally today he is refusing to negotiate with any party to get his bill passed He is behaving as if he had a majority government This is not a time for recklessness Governing means anticipating I am asking the Prime Minister to pull himself together 
The Chair: We will now go to Mr Uppal 
Hon. Tim Uppal (Edmonton Mill Woods, CPC): Mr Chair I rise to give thanks and recognition to the contributions of many businesses and organizations across my riding of Edmonton Mill Woods that have stepped up in a major way during this pandemic I joined my friends in the Filipino community who partnered with Mill Woods Calvary Community Church to deliver care packages to seniors Varinder Bhullar and his Green Scholars of Alberta team and DilEPunjab restaurant provided thousands of free meals Sikh Youth Edmonton delivered free groceries to families seniors and students Edmonton Towing and its full team with Dukh Nivaran Gudwara prepared food packages for any truckers who were coming through Edmonton The Bhartiya Cultural Society Hindu temple provided free meals to anyone who needed them Punjab Insurance and The Punjab chain of restaurants provided free meals in downtown Edmonton The staff nurses and doctors of Grey Nuns Community Hospital in the heart of Mill Woods have been keeping people safe and healthy I want to thank our Mill Woods community as a whole for its continued strength resilience and compassion as we move forward together 
The Chair: We will now proceed to Mr Fonseca 
Mr. Peter Fonseca (Mississauga EastCooksville, Lib.): Mr Chair today is Portugal Day celebrated both in Portugal and around the world by Portuguese In Canada June has been recognized as Portuguese Heritage Month We are truly happy to recognize the great contributions made by Canadians of Portuguese descent This year is a difficult one though for all of us including our Portuguese diaspora community across the globe that is deeply affected by the COVID situation Our prayers and well wishes are with everyone I would like to take this opportunity to thank our luso community of over half a million members in Canada from coast to coast for staying strong during these difficult times Your warmth hard work and team spirit resonate well across my riding of Mississauga EastCooksville and globally As a Portuguese immigrant who came to Canada at the age of two with my family I know this year will be a lot different from previous years I encourage all of you to stay safe and enjoy a Portuguese meal and please continue to support our local businesses","Several members expressed their gratitude towards various groups such as first responders, working populations and different companies that have come together to help with the COVID crisis. Students whose education had undergone a radical change were highlighted and their fortitude appreciated. There was also a call to rally for disenfranchised groups such as rural residents, black lives movement and non-binary persons."
"Mrs. Rosemarie Falk (BattlefordsLloydminster, CPC): Mr Chair the Liberal government has tabled 87 billion in spending and allocated just four hours for Parliament to study debate and pass it The allocated time is wholly inadequate Canadians deserve to know how that money is being spent They deserve to know that this government spending was scrutinized and passed through the rigours of Parliament It is Canadian taxpayers of today and tomorrow who will have the responsibility to pay for this governments spending It is Canadian workers and businesses who will have to do the hard work of rebuilding our economy It is real Canadians who fall through the cracks when this Liberal governments programs fail to meet their intended goals A rubber stamp under the guise of health and safety is not democracy Canadians are owed better Just as we gather four days a week for a hybrid committee meeting parliamentarians can gather to do the full scope of the work that Canadians elected us to do 
The Chair: We now go to Mr Godin 
Mr. Jol Godin (PortneufJacques-Cartier, CPC): Thank you MrChair Our planet is dealing with the COVID19 pandemic Our daily lives have been turned upside down I am thinking of you our seniors valuable individuals who built our country You have gone through a very restrictive confinement You have had to sacrifice time spent with your families Our students also had to adapt Their school year was turned on its head Our graduating class especially saw their dream of a proper graduation vanish The future belongs to them They must follow their dreams I want to say to all the essential staff and the many support organizations that they are really changing things We have all taken on our important responsibility that of following the guidelines The results have been most compelling in my riding I want to say how proud I am to represent you here in the Canadian Parliament I thank each and everyone of you You are helping PortneufJacquesCartier flourish You have shown resilience creativity innovation and solidarity That is commendable Together we will get through this ordeal and come out stronger 
The Chair: We will now go to Ms Gazan 
Ms. Leah Gazan (Winnipeg Centre, NDP): Mr Chair today I rise to honour Justice 4 Black Lives Winnipeg led by women and nonbinary individuals who stood together and mobilized our city to state clearly that we will not stand by and stay silent in the face of police brutality We will not stand by in the face of systemic racism We will not stand by while we witness our bodies being abused by centuries of racism supported through legislation that has left us vulnerable at the hands of those who abuse their power We will speak out against police violence We will speak out against systemic racism We will join together to ensure that laws are instituted that are designed to protect us not abuse us We will call out those who abuse their power We will rise We will rise We will rise To all the women and nonbinary folks who are standing I say let us continue to sound our voices in solidarity and support of one another until indigenous and black lives are honoured and respected Our liberation is intertwined Solidarity 
Mrs. Claude DeBellefeuille (SalaberrySurot, BQ): MrChair this is not the time for governments to get complacent about COVID19 However the last few days have shown that we are once again dealing with a reckless Prime Minister First he locked down Parliament to avoid being accountable to the opposition while the economic recovery must be prepared He is refusing to provide an economic update even though the Parliamentary Budget Officer is calling for it We need to know how much flexibility we have in case of a second wave of the pandemic He is refusing to hold a first ministers meeting on unconditional health transfers The increase Quebec needs is for hiring health care staff before a second wave and not after it Finally today he is refusing to negotiate with any party to get his bill passed He is behaving as if he had a majority government This is not a time for recklessness Governing means anticipating I am asking the Prime Minister to pull himself together","The liberal of Government was accused of not allowing for adequate scrutiny of their spending. The Prime Minister was accused of locking down Parliament to avoid accountability, refusing to hold a first ministers meeting and refusing to negotiate to pass a bill."
"Ms. Sylvie Brub (AbitibiBaie-JamesNunavikEeyou, BQ): MrChair unacceptable incidents of police brutality against aboriginals have prompted former member Romeo Saganash whose commitment I commend to call for a commission of inquiry similar to the Viens commission in Quebec The Bloc is open to the idea but we should not wait for such an inquiry to be recommended to take action There are already potential solutions for taking action Commissions have been issuing reports for decades and Ottawa has been tabling them Last year alone the Viens report and the report stemming from the National Inquiry into Missing and Murdered Indigenous Women and Girls contained dozens of recommendations The federal government must work with indigenous peoples Quebec and the provinces to establish adequate funding for indigenous police forces Civilian ethics organizations should be created to oversee the RCMP Police officers and the general population must be better educated on indigenous realities and cultures Hundreds of pages must be written and actions taken to restore confidence in law enforcement so as to achieve the longoverdue reconciliation Let us take action 
The Chair: I give the floor to MrMacKinnon 
Mr. Steven MacKinnon (Gatineau, Lib.): MrChair on behalf of myself and my parliamentary colleagues I want to congratulate students from our high school class of 2020 We know that owing to the pandemic graduation celebrations will be different this year as students will be deprived of their prom their graduation ceremony and in some cases their goodbyes to friends and teachers I know how disappointed students from the high schools of duVersant LeCarrefour NicolasGatineau de lrablire Collge SaintAlexandre Collge Nouvelles Frontires Collge SaintJoseph PhilemonWright and other regional schools are not to be able to celebrate their five years of incredible efforts surrounded by their families and friends who were by their side on a daily basis However that takes nothing away from their accomplishment So when they receive their diploma here is what I will say to them : Surge ahead ! The future belongs to you Be ambitious follow your dreams and most importantly continue to change the Outaouais and the world ! The class of 2020 will be remembered for a long time 
The Chair: We will now go to Mr Morantz 
Mr. Marty Morantz (CharleswoodSt. JamesAssiniboiaHeadingley, CPC): Mr Chair I am delighted to rise to talk about the Bruce Oake Recovery Centre which is now under construction in my riding in Winnipeg This stateoftheart addictions recovery facility was made into a reality by Scott Anne and Darcy Oake in memory of their son and brother Bruce who passed away tragically from an accidental overdose in 2011 The Bruce Oake Recovery Centre will provide help to thousands of Manitobans to manage their addiction and reintegrate into the community I was proud to support this project when I voted for it during my time on Winnipeg City Council The addictions crisis in Canada needs action With approximately eight million Canadians suffering from addictions we need centres like these to help them recover so that no other family will face a heartbreaking loss due to addiction I want to congratulate the Oakes for their commitment to making recovery for many a reality Addictions affect us all and we all have a part to play in contributing to the solution 
The Chair: We will now go to Mr Jowhari 
Mr. Majid Jowhari (Richmond Hill, Lib.): Mr Chair I would like to recognize the compassion and generosity demonstrated in my riding of Richmond Hill Week after week residents and organizations have come together to support our most vulnerable during a time of great difficulty I want to thank the champions of the community who were generous enough to donate masks and other supplies as well as services I would also like to recognize the charities and care centres which upon receiving these donations redoubled their efforts to serve their communities Special thanks go to the Mon Sheong Foundation LongTerm Care Centre Divine Favour Senior Homecare the Community Home Assistance to Seniors the True Compassion Home Health centre Blue Door the Mosaic Interfaith Out of the Cold program Yellow Brick House Hill House Hospice Community Living York South and Parya Trillium Foundation for continuing to support the residents in my riding of Richmond Hill The compassionate generosity demonstrated by these donors and organizations makes me proud to represent my community in Parliament 
The Chair: We will now go to Madam Lalonde 
Mrs. Marie-France Lalonde (Orlans, Lib.): Thank you MrChair Usually at this time of the year I have the pleasure of being invited to the graduation ceremony of the grade12 students in Orlans However we will all have to adapt to a new reality this year I can not express enough how in these exceptional times I have witnessed the strength resilience and community spirit of our graduates I also know that a number of high schools have made significant efforts to celebrate the success of their graduating class Young graduate Maryanne Collard was amazed to see that people from her school the cole secondaire catholique BatriceDesloges had installed a sign in her garden to congratulate her on her academic success As we move forward we must not forget that youth in this country are our future We have a responsibility to be there for them and to believe in them We will not fail I thank the teachers the support staff and school management who are continuing to do their work Congratulations to all graduates of 2020 
The Chair: We will now go to Mr Vis 
Mr. Brad Vis (MissionMatsquiFraser Canyon, CPC): Mr Chair COVID19 has changed and challenged how we go about our daily lives For many this includes a shift to working from home or attending school remotely The sad reality is that even before the crisis hit most rural Canadians simply did not have access to a strong and stable Internet connection even though Internet is an essential service Those in underserved areas including many parts of MissionMatsquiFraser Canyon can not work from home and their children can not keep up with their classmates For many of my indigenous constituents Internet services are stuck in the 1990s because telecom companies do not want to serve them I along with my colleagues launched community consultations to address this critical issue and provide solutions We call on the government to outline and implement a concrete action plan to address Internet connectivity deficits between rural and urban Canada This is an issue I will continue to press on until results are achieved 
The Chair: We will now go to Mr McLeod 
Mr. Michael McLeod (Northwest Territories, Lib.): Mr Chair Canada has been awarded its firstever Equator Prize from the United Nations Development Programme Congratulations go to Lutsl K Dene First Nation and the Northwest Territory Mtis Nation with support from Deninu Kue First Nation and the Yellowknives Dene First Nation for the establishment of the Thaidene Nn territorial protected area It is 14000 square kilometres of the most beautiful land and waters you will find anywhere on earth I would also like to thank the previous minister of the environment for securing Canadas 79million commitment along with our visit to celebrate the new park last year The award is given to groups that have exemplified actions to protect critical ecosystems and biodiversity for generations to come and to show how indigenous peoples and local communities have confronted legacies of disadvantage and discrimination in support of their communities and the world at large Congratulations to Lutsl K 
The Chair: We will now go to Ms Falk 
Mrs. Rosemarie Falk (BattlefordsLloydminster, CPC): Mr Chair the Liberal government has tabled 87 billion in spending and allocated just four hours for Parliament to study debate and pass it The allocated time is wholly inadequate Canadians deserve to know how that money is being spent They deserve to know that this government spending was scrutinized and passed through the rigours of Parliament It is Canadian taxpayers of today and tomorrow who will have the responsibility to pay for this governments spending It is Canadian workers and businesses who will have to do the hard work of rebuilding our economy It is real Canadians who fall through the cracks when this Liberal governments programs fail to meet their intended goals A rubber stamp under the guise of health and safety is not democracy Canadians are owed better Just as we gather four days a week for a hybrid committee meeting parliamentarians can gather to do the full scope of the work that Canadians elected us to do 
The Chair: We now go to Mr Godin 
Mr. Jol Godin (PortneufJacques-Cartier, CPC): Thank you MrChair Our planet is dealing with the COVID19 pandemic Our daily lives have been turned upside down I am thinking of you our seniors valuable individuals who built our country You have gone through a very restrictive confinement You have had to sacrifice time spent with your families Our students also had to adapt Their school year was turned on its head Our graduating class especially saw their dream of a proper graduation vanish The future belongs to them They must follow their dreams I want to say to all the essential staff and the many support organizations that they are really changing things We have all taken on our important responsibility that of following the guidelines The results have been most compelling in my riding I want to say how proud I am to represent you here in the Canadian Parliament I thank each and everyone of you You are helping PortneufJacquesCartier flourish You have shown resilience creativity innovation and solidarity That is commendable Together we will get through this ordeal and come out stronger 
The Chair: We will now go to Ms Gazan 
Ms. Leah Gazan (Winnipeg Centre, NDP): Mr Chair today I rise to honour Justice 4 Black Lives Winnipeg led by women and nonbinary individuals who stood together and mobilized our city to state clearly that we will not stand by and stay silent in the face of police brutality We will not stand by in the face of systemic racism We will not stand by while we witness our bodies being abused by centuries of racism supported through legislation that has left us vulnerable at the hands of those who abuse their power We will speak out against police violence We will speak out against systemic racism We will join together to ensure that laws are instituted that are designed to protect us not abuse us We will call out those who abuse their power We will rise We will rise We will rise To all the women and nonbinary folks who are standing I say let us continue to sound our voices in solidarity and support of one another until indigenous and black lives are honoured and respected Our liberation is intertwined Solidarity","Members advocated for aboriginals who faced police brutality, students for their disrupted education, indigenous and rural residents for lack of access to the internet and the black lives movement."
"Hon. Andrew Scheer (Leader of the Opposition): Mr Chair the Prime Minister is doing everything to avoid being accountable to Canadians He is refusing to table a budget refusing to provide an economic update and refusing to let the House of Commons do its work Will he at least provide the Auditor General with the additional funding she needs to look into government expenditures ? 
Right Hon. Justin Trudeau (Prime Minister): MrChair not only are we introducing a bill this afternoon to help Canadians with the Canada emergency response benefit and those living with disabilities but we are also proposing to the opposition parties that we hold a debate and a vote on that I hope the opposition parties will allow a vote and a debate in the House on this important bill 
Hon. Andrew Scheer: Mr Chair the Prime Minister wants parliamentarians to vote on aspects of the governments spending We want the Auditor General to be able to examine that government spending Under the government the Auditor General has had to do more with less and her ability to conduct audits is being affected The Auditor General has indicated that she will be able to do half as many audits despite an almost doubling in the size of government spending I have a simple question Will the Prime Minister give the Auditor General the money she needs to do her job yes or no ? 
Right Hon. Justin Trudeau: Mr Chair we worked with the Auditor General to increase the funding of the Auditor Generals office in 201819 and the equivalent of 38 fulltime staff were added We support the Auditor General unlike the Conservative government which fired 60 people from the Auditor Generals office We are now proposing that we sit down to debate legislation this afternoon and I certainly hope that members opposite will vote for debate 
Hon. Andrew Scheer: The Prime Minister is again engaged in revisionist history He well knows that it was the Auditor Generals office that volunteered to make administrative efficiencies which did not affect its ability to do the job In fact as the interim auditor general John Wiersema said We would not have proposed if we did not think it was the right thing to do and that wed be able to carry out our role for Parliament Only the governments refusal to grant that extra funding is hampering the Auditor Generals ability to give Canadians the answers they deserve and we wonder why This is the government that can not explain where 20000 infrastructure projects went and where five billion dollars worth of supposed infrastructure investments have gone They can not identify that Then there is of course the 35billion Infrastructure Bank which has completed precisely zero projects Are these the reasons the Prime Minister is so intent on withholding funds from the Auditor General ? 
Right Hon. Justin Trudeau: Mr Chair talking of revisionist history Stephen Harpers Conservatives cut 65 million from the Auditor Generals budget and fired 60 staff On the contrary we worked with the Auditor Generals office and increased its funding and added the equivalent of 38 new fulltime staff We will continue to demonstrate openness and transparency We will continue to respect the officers of Parliament whom the Conservatives in their time in office showed no respect for We will continue to move forward in a way that has led for example to proposing debate and voting on important legislation this afternoon to help Canadians The Conservatives do not seem to want that debate or vote 
Hon. Andrew Scheer: Mr Chair it is no surprise that the Prime Minister likes to reach back into history from before the 2015 election to justify his position The 2015 election was the only time he got more votes than the Conservative Party did so I understand why he likes to live in the past In May the interim auditor general said Ten years ago we were completing about 27 performance audits every year With our current resources we expect to be able to deliver 14 performance audits each year That is half the number of audits despite a massive explosion in government spending The Auditor Generals office has requested more funds to be able to do the job that Canadians expect to be done Will the Prime Minister give those additional funds to the Auditor Generals office yes or no ?",The Prime Minister was quizzed on why he wasn't providing the money to allow the Auditor general to conduct audits on the Government's spending. The Prime Minister responded as to having increased the budget of the Auditor General's budget the previous year. The response was deemed unsatisfactory by the questioning party.
"Mr. Jagmeet Singh (Burnaby South, NDP): MrChair will the Prime Minister make a clear and direct commitment today to extend the CERB for families who need it ? 
Right Hon. Justin Trudeau: MrChair we are introducing legislation this afternoon that will directly help Canadians living with disabilities will expand the scope of the wage subsidy and will increase the flexibility of the Canada emergency response benefit We hope to be able to debate it 
Mr. Jagmeet Singh: Will the Prime Minister extend the CERB for families in need yes or no ? 
Right Hon. Justin Trudeau: As I said Mr Chair discussions are ongoing on that but I can assure Canadians we will continue to be there for them and support them as we have been 
Mr. Jagmeet Singh: Mr Chair a family that needs to buy groceries can not take those pretty words and buy groceries with them We are asking the Prime Minister to extend the CERB for families in need Will the Prime Minister do that yes or no ? 
Right Hon. Justin Trudeau: Mr Chair as I said we will continue to be there for Canadians in the right way We are engaged with stakeholders with opposition parties and with Canadians to ensure that we continue to support them the way they need to be supported 
Mr. Jagmeet Singh: Mr Chair I can tell you what the right way is Don from Burnaby sent me a note saying he is an arts worker and there is no forecast for his job to be reopened He is now dependent on the CERB He wants to go back to work but there is no work He sent an email saying he is faced with a grim realityhis wordsand he is frightened that if the CERB runs out and it is planned to run out at the end of this month then he will have no way to afford to make ends meet Will the Prime Minister extend the CERB so Don does not have to live in fear ? 
Right Hon. Justin Trudeau: Mr Chair as I said and as we have been saying from the beginning we will continue to be there to support Canadians who need it The member opposite is not actually looking at the fact that we are proposing three significant helps for Canadians this afternoon We are proposing to help Canadians with disabilities to expand the wage subsidy for more businesses and to create flexibility for the CERB He does not even want to debate those things He does not even want to be voting on them Will the NDP allow us to move forward on these important measures for Canadians ? 
Mr. Jagmeet Singh: Mr Chair let us talk about those measures One of the things we asked the government to do five weeks ago was to bring in help for Canadians living with disabilities Now the governments plan is only going to help 40 of Canadians living with disabilities Will the government commit to helping all Canadians living with disabilities and propose a plan that will do so ? 
Right Hon. Justin Trudeau: Mr Chair the NDP leader seems to have decided that rather than help 40 or a significant portion of people with disabilities he wants to help none of them because he is not going to allow the debate to move forward on this bill That is unfortunate We are always happy to look at how we can do more We have demonstrated from the beginning that we want to do more for Canadians I look forward to working with the NDP I am hoping those members change their minds and allow us to have an important debate this afternoon 
Mr. Jagmeet Singh: Mr Chair I appreciate that the Prime Minister accepts that his plan only helps 40 of Canadians living with disabilities Let us talk about the 60 who are not being helped They are veterans living with disabilities those who receive CPP and those who receive disability payments Often it is the poorest of Canadians living with disabilities who will not be helped with the plan the government is proposing Will the government help all Canadians living with disabilities ? 
Right Hon. Justin Trudeau: Mr Chair our proposal will help 100 of Canadians who receive the disability tax credit including many veterans The fact is that we are there to support the disability community We are there to support Canadians with disabilities Why is the NDP not allowing us to move forward on debating and voting on this important legislation ? 
The Chair: Mr Singh we have 43 seconds for a question and an answer 
Mr. Jagmeet Singh: Mr Chair that is the exact problem with the Liberal proposal It is a tax credit approach which excludes the vast majority of Canadians living with disabilities That is the wrong approach We made it very clear that if the government extends the CERB if it ensures there are no penalties on those who are desperately in need of help and if it helps all Canadians living with disabilities we will move forward Will the government do that ?",Members quizzed the Prime minister on what would happen to the CERB as many of their constituents were depending on it. They stressed for urgency and clarifications for when it would be provided to allow for the affected population to plan for the future. Many people depended on CERB for their living.
"Ms. Jag Sahota: Madam Chair that simply is not good enough This is something that has been brought to the governments attention for months now and still nothing has been done These families deserve answers now Had the government conducted a GBA analysis they would have discovered this prior to rolling out inadequate programs for women Why was not a GBA conducted ? 
Hon. Carla Qualtrough: I can assure everyone in this House that we are very aware and deeply concerned about the disproportionate impact of this pandemic on women and girls We are working hard to ensure that everyone has the supports they need As we move forward we are as I said earlier taking into consideration improvements to the EI system the wage subsidy and the future of CERB All these play together as we work to provide a comprehensive forwardlooking support package for Canadians 
Ms. Jag Sahota: Madam Chair might I remind my honourable colleague that this Prime Minister said that every piece of legislation would go through a rigorous GBA ? Why was it not done ? 
Hon. Carla Qualtrough: Madam Chair I can assure the member that we absolutely took into account the needs of women as we developed the CERB I can tell you that women are benefiting significantly from this benefit 
Ms. Jag Sahota: Madam Chair it is a simple question and I will ask again Why was GBA analysis not conducted for the COVID19 relief programs ? 
Hon. Carla Qualtrough: Madam Chair as I said the needs of women and girls were taken into consideration every step of the way from the beginning as we worked to provide a comprehensive suite of support for Canadians across the country 
Ms. Jag Sahota: Madam Chair if that is the case then how did you miss these gaps ? 
Hon. Carla Qualtrough: Madam Chair I can assure the member that we did not miss gaps We from the beginning looked to support as many people as possible As we moved from supporting workers to supporting students to supporting seniors and today to supporting people with disabilities we are ensuring that everyone is covered by our measures As this pandemic evolves and as we move into economic recovery of course we are going to make sure that women in particular are supported in our measures 
Ms. Jag Sahota: Madam Chair the minister needs to take the responsibility here These women and families deserve answers This is a real problem happening right now You said you would conduct GBA analysis on all policy measures moving forward Where is the assistance for these expectant mothers ? 
Hon. Carla Qualtrough: Madam Chair I take responsibility I am very proud of how many senior women we have supported with our measures how many women received the GST credit how many women who lead families received the CCB onetime payment and how many women with disabilities will receive the disability support if we have allparty consent today 
The Acting Chair (Mrs. Alexandra Mends): Ms Sahota may I remind you to please direct your questions through the chair ? 
Ms. Jag Sahota: Madam Chair I will ask again hoping for a straightforward answer from this minister Why was a GBA analysis not conducted on the COVID19 relief programs ? 
Hon. Carla Qualtrough: My goodness Madam Chair I will say again how important it was from the very beginning that we took into account the needs of women and girls and as we move forward into the economic recovery phase how completely we make women at the core of every decision 
The Acting Chair (Mrs. Alexandra Mends): Ms Sahota you have 15 seconds 
Ms. Jag Sahota: Madam Chair my question is still not answered She keeps repeating the same answer I will keep asking the same question hoping for a straightforward answer Why was a GBA analysis not conducted on the COVID19 relief programs ? 
The Acting Chair (Mrs. Alexandra Mends): Honourable minister you have five seconds 
Hon. Carla Qualtrough: Madam Chair we have taken into account the needs of women and girls from the beginning and we will continue to do so",A committee member repeatedly asked why a GBA+ analysis was not conducted on the COVID-19 relief programs since this would have prevented rolling out inadequate programs for women. The quizzed party responded by pointing out to their successful efforts with some of the women and stressing that women were at the core of their decision making.
Project Manager: So I will present myself I am Ada Longmund and as you may know it I am the pr project manager So we will have to speak about m the project Our project project is to create a new remote control and as you may know there is lot of industrials interesting in creating a remote control so the remote control has to be original trendy and userfriendly Record So the project method is the following So if we are the functional design you have to do any individual work and also work with meetings talking with each other it will be the same for the conceptual design and also the same for the detailed design,"The remote control had to be original, trendy, easy to use, international and not too expensive."
Project Manager: it will be a an international remote control as we want to sell it in the entire world and the product costs will be not more than twelve Euros and fifty centimes So as you will discuss about the remote control you will have to experience your with the remote control just maybe be imaginative with remote const con controls,Because it would be sold in the entire world and everyone would use it.
"Project Manager: So the selling price of the product will be twenty five Euros I think it is quite good price 
Industrial Designer: I it is it is reasonable s quite Twenty five 
Marketing: It is reasonable I think",The remote control would be priced at 25 Euros and the product cost would be no more than 12.5 Euros.
"Project Manager: And you will have to work on the design and also to work on the design of th technical fun functions of the remote control and think of the user requirement specifications 
Marketing: Those things just refer to each of each of us I think AMI 
Industrial Designer: ID is for the Industrial Design ? And UID it is for the User Interface Designer 
Marketing: and Marketing Expert it is me 
Project Manager: So I will manage all all the group 
Industrial Designer: you will be the manager 
Marketing: You can manage all this 
Project Manager: So you have questions ? you all know what the parts of the work you have to do 
Marketing: So which you the Industrial Designer 
User Interface: No I am user interf I am user interface design 
Industrial Designer: I am the Industrial Design I am the Industrial Designer so 
User Interface: So what is the difference between user interface design d industrial design ? 
Marketing: I mean you have to know Ah you have to know it It is your job so I hope you you know what it is 
Project Manager: I suppose you have to design it and you have to take care of the industrial way to transform it 
User Interface: so I make you user interface You you de you implement the core functions in the 
Project Manager: And i maybe you will transform it 
Industrial Designer: I I think the user the user interface design is he will design how the user will you know the relation between the user and you know the remote control so And the industrial design it is how the object will look like 
User Interface: Maybe I think i industrial designs it is the function design I design the user f user interface you design the function 
Project Manager: Maybe it is the outside and the inside 
Industrial Designer: right But I was thinking that he is a user because the user interface to design for example where the but button will be you know But I do not know I am the industrial designer 
Marketing: Oh Not the other one 
Industrial Designer: So and the marketing expert will 
Marketing: I am just go I am trying to give you some trends about what should be done and what the users would like to have and then thi this would I guess converged to the User Interface Designer wi and then Industrial Designer",Project manager would manage the whole group. Industrial Designer would think of the functions of the product. User interface designer would concentrate on the users' requirement and the relation between the users and the remote control. Marketing would give interface designer and industrial designer some trends about what should be done and what the users would like to have.
"Industrial Designer: I I think the user the user interface design is he will design how the user will you know the relation between the user and you know the remote control so And the industrial design it is how the object will look like 
User Interface: Maybe I think i industrial designs it is the function design I design the user f user interface you design the function 
Project Manager: Maybe it is the outside and the inside 
Industrial Designer: right But I was thinking that he is a user because the user interface to design for example where the but button will be you know","Industrial designer thought user interface designer's job was to focus on the relation between the users and the remote control and decide how the object looks – for example, where the button would be."
"User Interface: So what is the difference between user interface design d industrial design ? 
Marketing: I mean you have to know Ah you have to know it It is your job so I hope you you know what it is 
Project Manager: I suppose you have to design it and you have to take care of the industrial way to transform it 
User Interface: so I make you user interface You you de you implement the core functions in the 
Project Manager: And i maybe you will transform it 
Industrial Designer: I I think the user the user interface design is he will design how the user will you know the relation between the user and you know the remote control so And the industrial design it is how the object will look like 
User Interface: Maybe I think i industrial designs it is the function design I design the user f user interface you design the function 
Project Manager: Maybe it is the outside and the inside 
Industrial Designer: right But I was thinking that he is a user because the user interface to design for example where the but button will be you know But I do not know I am the industrial designer 
Marketing: Oh Not the other one","Industrial Designer would design the functions and figure out the industrial way to implement it while the user interface designer's job was to decide how the object looked. In short, the two were like the inside and the outside."
"Grad B: And so we Reasons being you know it would be a pain to set up all the probabilities for that If we moved onto the next step and did learning of some sort according Bhaskara we would be handicapped I do not know belief nets very well 
Grad C: Well usually I mean you know N If you have N features then it s two to the N pause or exponential in N 
Grad B: And they would not look pretty So 
Grad C: they would all be like pointing to the one node 
Grad B: So then our next idea was to add a middle layer right ? So the thinking behind that was we have the features that we ve drawn pause from the communication of some Like the someone s The person at the screen is trying to communicate some abstract idea like `` I m `` the the abstract idea being `` I am a tourist I want to go pause to this place `` Right ? So we are going to set up features along the lines of where they want to go and pause what they ve said previously and whatnot And then we have pause the means that they should use Right ? but the middle thing we were thinking along the lines of maybe trying to figure out like the concept of whether they are a tourist pause or pause whether they are running an errand or something like that along those lines Or Yes we could things we could not extract the from the data the hidden variables Yes good So then the hidden variables hair variables we came up with were whether someone was on a tour running an errand or whether they were in a hurry because we were thinking if they were in a hurry there would be less likely to like or th 
Grad C: right ? Because pause if you want to view things you would not be in a hurry 
Grad B: Or they might be more likely to be using the place that they want to go to as a like a pause navigational point to go to another place Whether the destination was their final destination whether the destination was closed Those are all And then `` Let s look at the belief net `` comment OK So that means that I should switch to the pause other program right now it s still kind of pause in a toy pause version of it because we did not know the probabilities of pause or Well I will talk about it when I get the picture up",It is necessary for the belief-net to have at least one layer of nodes between the features and the final output. This makes the structure more flexible in terms of coding feature-layer probabilities. 
"Grad A: Food and drink and so forth So I mean But i you know i we can Something Somebody can have discussed the admission fee and you the answer pause is s if we you know still based on that result is never going to enter that building You know ? Because it s just too expensive 
Grad B: Oh I think I see So the discourse refers to `` admission fee `` but it just turns out that they change their mind in the middle of the discourse 
Grad D: you have to have some notion of not just I mean there s a there s change across several turns of discourse so I do not know how if any of this was discussed but how i if it all this is going to interact with whatever general other other discourse processing that might be happen 
Grad B: What sort of discourse pause processing is are the How much is built into SmartKom and 
Grad A: It works like this The I mean The first thing we get is that pause already the intention is sort of t They tried to figure out the intention right ? simply by parsing it And this m will not differentiate between all modes ? but at least it will tell us `` OK here we have something that somebody that wants to go someplace now it s up for us to figure out what kind of going there is is pause is happening and if the discourse takes a couple of turns before everything all the information is needed what happens is you know the parser parses it and then it s handed on to the discourse history which is o one of the most elaborate elaborate modules It s it s actually the the whole memory of the entire system that knows what wh who said what which was what was presented It helps an an anaphora resolution and it and it fills in all the structures that are omitted so pause because you say `` OK pause how can I get to the castle ? `` Oh how how much is it ? `` and `` I would like to g let s do it `` and so forth So even without an a ana pause anaphora somebody has to make sure that information we had earlier on is still here Because not every module keeps a memory of everything that happened so whenever the person is not actually rejecting what happened before so as in `` No I really do not want to see that movie I would rather stay home and watch TV `` What movie was selected in what cinema in what town is is going to be sort of added into the disc into the representations every di at each dialogue step by the discourse model discourse pause model that s what it s called and it does some help in the anaphora resolution and it also helps in coordinating the gesture screen issues So a person pointing to something on the screen you know the discourse model actually stores what was presented at what location on the s on the screen so it s a it s a rather huge huge thing but comment pause we can pause sort of It has a very clear interface We can query it whether admission fees were discussed in the last turn and and the turn before that or you know how pause deep we want to search which is a question How deep do we want to sear you know ? but we should pause try to keep in mind that you know we are doing this sort of for research so we we should find a limit that s reasonable and not go you know all the way back to Adam and Eve You know did that person ever discuss admissions fee fees in his entire life ? And the dialogues are pretty pretty you know concise and Anyway 
Grad D: So one thing that might be helpful which is implicit in the pause use of `` admission fee discussion `` as a cue for entry pause is thinking about the plans that various people might have Like all the different sort of general schemas that they might be following OK This person is finding out information about this thing in order to go pause in as a tourist or finding out how to get to this place pause in order to do business because then pause anything that s a cue for one of the steps pause would be slight evidence for that overall plan I do not know They are in in non in sort of more traditional AI kinds of plan recognition things you sort of have pause you know some idea at each turn of agent doing something `` OK wha what plans is this a consistent with ? `` and then get s some more information and then you see pause `` here s a sequence that this sort of roughly fits into `` It it might be useful here too I I do not know how you know you would have to pause figure out what knowl what knowledge representation would work for that 
Grad A: I mean the you you It s in the these these these plan schemas I mean there are some some of them are extremely elaborate you know `` What do you need need to buy a ticket ? `` You know ? and it it s fifty steps huh ? just for buying a ticket pause at a ticket counter you know and and maybe that s helpful to look at it to look at those It s amazing what human beings can do W when we talked we had the example you know of you being a s a person on a ticket counter working at railway station and somebody r runs up to you with a suitcase in his hands says New York and you say Track seven huh ? And it s because you know that that person actually is following you know You execute a whole plan of going through a hundred and fifty steps you know without any information other than `` New York `` huh ? inferring everything from the context So works even though there is probably no train from here to New York right ? 
Grad B: You would probably have to transfer in Chicago 
Grad A: Mm But it s possible no you probably have to transfer also somewhere else Right ? Is that t San Francisco Chicago ? 
Grad B: One time I saw a report on trains and I think there is a l I do not know if I thought there was a line that went from somewhere maybe it was Sacramento to Chicago but there was like a California to Chicago line of some sort I could be wrong though It was a while ago 
Grad D: The Transcontinental Railroad does not that ring a bell ? 
Grad B: but I do not know if it s still 
Grad D: I think it has to exist somewhere","The next stage is to refine the set of feature nodes and identify possible clusters. Although, in theory, traditional AI plan recognition techniques could also be helpful for inferring intentions, the schemas involved are too elaborate for this task. "
"Grad B: You want me to Wait what do you want me to do ? 
Grad C: Can you maximize the window so all that stuff on the side is not does not appear ? 
Grad A: No It s OK It s It will work 
Grad B: Well I can do that but then I have to end the presentation in the middle so I can go back to open up Here let s see if I can Is that better ? OK I will also get rid of this `` Click to add notes `` OK So then the features we decided or we decided we were talked about right ? the the prosody the discourse pause verb choice You know We had a list of things like `` to go `` and `` to visit `` and what not The `` landmark iness `` of I knew you would like that Thank you of a of a building Whether the and this i we actually have a separate feature but I decided to put it on the same line pause for space `` Nice walls `` which we can look up because I mean if you are going to pause get real close to a building in the Tango mode right there s got to be a reason for it And it s either because you are in route to something else or you want to look at the walls The context which in this case we ve limited to pause `` business person `` `` tourist `` or pause `` unknown `` the time of day and `` open to suggestions `` is not actually a feature It s pause `` We are open to suggestions `` 
Grad D: Right can I just ask the nice walls part of it is that in this particular domain you said be i it could be on two different lines but are you saying that in this particular domain it happens the that landmark iness cor is correlated with 
Grad C: No We have a separate","There was a demonstration of the structure and the function of a toy version of the belief-net for the intentionality task. The features nodes include things like prosody, discourse, verb choice, ""landmark-iness"" of a building, time of day and whether the admission fee was discussed."
"Grad B: And they would not look pretty So 
Grad C: they would all be like pointing to the one node 
Grad B: So then our next idea was to add a middle layer right ? So the thinking behind that was we have the features that we ve drawn pause from the communication of some Like the someone s The person at the screen is trying to communicate some abstract idea like `` I m `` the the abstract idea being `` I am a tourist I want to go pause to this place `` Right ? So we are going to set up features along the lines of where they want to go and pause what they ve said previously and whatnot And then we have pause the means that they should use Right ? but the middle thing we were thinking along the lines of maybe trying to figure out like the concept of whether they are a tourist pause or pause whether they are running an errand or something like that along those lines Or Yes we could things we could not extract the from the data the hidden variables Yes good So then the hidden variables hair variables we came up with were whether someone was on a tour running an errand or whether they were in a hurry because we were thinking if they were in a hurry there would be less likely to like or th 
Grad C: right ? Because pause if you want to view things you would not be in a hurry 
Grad B: Or they might be more likely to be using the place that they want to go to as a like a pause navigational point to go to another place","The values these nodes take feed into the middle layer nodes identified as hidden variables of the user/device interaction, such as whether the user is on tour, running an errand or in a hurry. These, in turn, help infer whether the user wants to see, enter or simply approach a building."
"Grad B: Oh I think I see So the discourse refers to `` admission fee `` but it just turns out that they change their mind in the middle of the discourse 
Grad D: you have to have some notion of not just I mean there s a there s change across several turns of discourse so I do not know how if any of this was discussed but how i if it all this is going to interact with whatever general other other discourse processing that might be happen 
Grad B: What sort of discourse pause processing is are the How much is built into SmartKom and 
Grad A: It works like this The I mean The first thing we get is that pause already the intention is sort of t They tried to figure out the intention right ? simply by parsing it And this m will not differentiate between all modes ? but at least it will tell us `` OK here we have something that somebody that wants to go someplace now it s up for us to figure out what kind of going there is is pause is happening and if the discourse takes a couple of turns before everything all the information is needed what happens is you know the parser parses it and then it s handed on to the discourse history which is o one of the most elaborate elaborate modules It s it s actually the the whole memory of the entire system that knows what wh who said what which was what was presented It helps an an anaphora resolution and it and it fills in all the structures that are omitted so pause because you say `` OK pause how can I get to the castle ? `` Oh how how much is it ? `` and `` I would like to g let s do it `` and so forth So even without an a ana pause anaphora somebody has to make sure that information we had earlier on is still here Because not every module keeps a memory of everything that happened so whenever the person is not actually rejecting what happened before so as in `` No I really do not want to see that movie I would rather stay home and watch TV `` What movie was selected in what cinema in what town is is going to be sort of added into the disc into the representations every di at each dialogue step by the discourse model discourse pause model that s what it s called and it does some help in the anaphora resolution and it also helps in coordinating the gesture screen issues So a person pointing to something on the screen you know the discourse model actually stores what was presented at what location on the s on the screen so it s a it s a rather huge huge thing but comment pause we can pause sort of It has a very clear interface We can query it whether admission fees were discussed in the last turn and and the turn before that or you know how pause deep we want to search","SmartKom, although it does not code for intentions as specified in this task, provides a model of the discourse, which can be useful for the detection of features through querying and anaphora resolution. "
"Grad A: You know So Unless it boots up with networking And I do not have an IP address they can not look up they do not know who localhost is and so forth and so forth Always fun But it s a simple solution We can just go downstairs and and and look at this but maybe not today The other thing I will oh OK I have to report data collection We interviewed Fey She s willing to do it meaning be the wizard for the data collection also maybe transcribe a little bit if she has to but also recruiting subjects organizing them and so forth So that looks good Jerry however suggested that we should have a trial run with her see whether she can actually do all the spontaneous eloquent and creativeness that we expect of the wizard And I talked to Liz about this and it looks as if Friday afternoon will be the time when we have a first trial run for the data 
Grad C: So who would be the subject pause of this trial run ? Who Will there be a Is one Is you one of you going to be the subject ? Like are you 
Grad A: Liz also volunteered to be the first subject which I think might be even better than us guys If we do need her for the technical stuff then of course one of you has to sort of jump in 
Grad B: I like how we ve you guys have successfully narrowed it down `` Is one of you going to be the subject ? `` Is one of you jump in 
Grad D: Reference I have not done it yet 
Grad C: Well I just figured it has to be someone who s familiar enough with the data to cause problems for the wizard so we can see if they are you know good","Experiments for the collection of new data will start soon, since someone who will recruit subjects and help run the experiments has already been hired and the designing of the experiments has also progressed significantly."
"Project Manager: so f here is our agenda for today we are going to do some tool training project plan and discuss then close so So our aim is to produce a remote control that is original trendy and user friendly And to do this we have to there is certain things we have to consider about functional aspects and conceptual design of the thing So We will get to that Oh there it is Right Functional design conceptual design and detailed design So throughout our next couple of meetings we will we will be covering these things so we are going to try out our white board If we will all draw our favourite animal to sum up the characteristics of that animal 
User Interface: So you want us to draw it and then talk about it ? Or just draw it ? Why do not we do both Right 
Marketing: Who starts ? We ought to decide who starts and all that No ? 
Project Manager: Does anyone know what they want to draw ? 
User Interface: Mm I got to think about it for a second like Does it have to be functional trendy and user friendly ? 
Project Manager: I do not think so 
User Interface: I will draw I will draw one Make sure my things here Uhoh Right my favourite animal is see Oops I guess it has a fin on top too It is my dolphin 
Project Manager: So what characteristics do you like about your animal ? 
User Interface: no I think dolphins are really I do not know they are smart and they they are cute and they like swimming and that is cool like they are graceful and they are so and they look intelligent and I do not know they are I guess it is the whole like binocular vision thing 
Project Manager: I do not know how intelligent that one looks 
User Interface: he he does not look that smart He is a I do not know they are I think it is cool the the the interaction that or the th things that the reasons people seem to like you know you get ex you know people are sitting on the beach and p they are like oh look there is dolphins and it is kind of like but they are you know they jump around in the water and they are happy and they are mammals but they swim 
Project Manager: Yes Does anybody else want to draw their animal ? 
Industrial Designer: Suppose I can draw an animal 
Project Manager: Uhoh there goes the ten 
Industrial Designer: I do not know They sleep all day they are easy to draw 
Project Manager: Do you want to anything ? I do not know if the the 
Industrial Designer: I think the pen is running out of 
Marketing: Well I had the cat as well but I have got a spare one So I will use the spare one but it is harder to draw I do not really know how the legs go but anyway I will do that and the main reason is they are pretty I think they are very pretty and they go well with the environment and I like the way they run and I used to do horse riding and they are just very sort of sturdy and nice animals And I like the way they feel sort of under under the hand I think that is pretty much it 
Project Manager: This cords Right Actually I have not thought of anything yet It is a pig So I am thinking we should design a remote control that is water resistant strong and furry What do you think ? This is well like a cat you know soft 
User Interface: Textile tactile tactile remote control 
Project Manager: Although I will just put there Right 
User Interface: You are dragging a you have a tail 
Project Manager: Oh my gosh this is disastrous Sorry about that So moving on Our selling price goal is twenty five Euro and profit aim is fifty million Euro So I am guessing that we are not actually in Scotland we are in some European country and we will hope to sell this internationally 
User Interface: Sorry can you just say that what is the what are our price goals again ? 
Project Manager: selling price is twenty five Euro Profit aim fifty million Euro 
Marketing: How many should we sell then ? a lot two two two million two mi no more f four million well it is the profit so if a profit for each is twelve fifty that will do four million 
Project Manager: So f that is a fifty percent I do not know what these mean because I did not actually make the slideshow Experience with remote control So I guess we have to reflect on our experiences with remote controls to decide what we would like to see in a convenient practical nice remote control so do we have any initial ideas for how this remote control should be designed or formatted or the the buttons it should have","User Interface and Industrial designer drawn dolphin and pig, which the two animals have smart and easy-to-draw features. Marketing suggested a horse and Project Manager thought they should design a remote control that's water resistant, strong and furry. Also he mentioned that remote control will be priced at 25 Euros and aimed to earn a revenue of fifty million Euros. Therefore, Project Manager encouraged teammates to reflect on experience when designing its function and format."
"Marketing: I think one thing is that it should be easy to find 
User Interface: I was thinking that too I think we should design something that has like a so you can like somehow like you I mean you always know where your TV is so just have a call button I have always wanted that so like you can push a button on your TV 
Project Manager: I mean you have it for the portable phone so why not 
User Interface: so you should have a call button on your television to be able to find your remote control 
Marketing: And even I think a little light or even a maybe a vib a vibrating thing I do not know but someth because it is usually under the sofa In which case you are going to be l but if it has a sort of signal which is not any sound I do not know if it is expensive maybe to 
User Interface: I do not I mean it but like I mean 
Marketing: Maybe call is enough But 
User Interface: just I mean like your phone even just has so like it can vibrate it can light up and make noise and I do not know 
Project Manager: What if it had something like just like a magnet on the back of it and you could I mean j just to have some place to put it besides like a base You know like a portable phone has a base 
User Interface: or if it had a 
Project Manager: like just to have a home for it Because people just stick it on top of their TV but the point of having a remote is not to have to walk over to the TV so 
Industrial Designer: Well that is why it is always in the couch 
User Interface: I do not know it seems like though that that would be hard because you not you are not going to be lazy anyway and 
Project Manager: Maybe we should design couches that have the remote control in the side arm 
User Interface: so we the project is now couches and remote controls","The initial feature suggested by Marketing was easy to find and User Interface suggested a call button on the television. And Marketing wanted something that could vibrate or had a signal if it had no sound. However, they were not sure whether it is expensive to design it. So Project Manager suggested designing a magnet or portable phone based couch for the remote control, which people no need to walk over the TV to find it."
"Marketing: But even just a thing to attach it to the w you know if you had a thing a pretty object attached to the wall But that would really make it more expensive But it is only a plastic thing r really the thing on the wall 
Project Manager: Do you think it needs to be bigger to not lose or does that not factor in ? 
Marketing: And the other thing is Not well it needs to be sort of 
Project Manager: Like Hand hand held size 
Marketing: I do not think you need a But definitely not well I do not know 
User Interface: It can not be that hard to put some kind of a noise on it 
Marketing: No it can not be uhuh 
Industrial Designer: No it really would not be 
User Interface: Or like or like a light thing You know I do not know Or make it mobile so it runs around and comes come find you That would be really I am sure we could do that for twenty five Euros a pop","Project Manager asked if the remote control needed to be made larger to avoid losing it. At the first beginning, User Interface suggested bigger, while Project Manager suggested a hand-sized device. Considering the light feature and putting noise on it, User Interface thought it would be feasible to make it mobile with a target price at 25 Euros."
"User Interface: I also think though that it should not have too many buttons because I hate that when they have too many buttons and 
Industrial Designer: B button and the F button they do not do anything 
User Interface: I mean I know it has to have enough functions but like I do not know you just have like eight thousand buttons and you are like no you never use half of them So 
Project Manager: You what if may be a little fancy but what if it had like a little screen so it has less buttons but it still has all the functions Like the way a mobile phone does 
User Interface: I mean it just seems like 
Project Manager: So you could like like if you have I do not know if you have satellite if you have a hundred channels you can the way you do it on your radio is that you what do you call it s y but you can programme so you can programme like your favourite channels so like if you had a s 
Marketing: But would you have the screen on the thing or would you have it on the telly transmitting the screen 
Project Manager: That is something we could decide Mm 
User Interface: I guess they would go together somehow ? I do not know 
Marketing: Because I do not know if it is I think it is e expensive if you have if you use the telly screen because the tellys already a screen then you can pro sort of have a programming function really easy sort of arrow up and down on the remote and then use the telly as a screen 
User Interface: I am thinking kind of 
Marketing: But for sure Something like not it is not on the button but it is telling you what to do is that what you mean ? 
User Interface: Or like you h you see those you know people I am thinking of like celebrity cribs kind of things when like they have all those these things that at their house you know their their entire house is so electronic and they have like this one master control that and it is like a hand held like turns on everything sort of control and it has like a screen and like so I think it should be possible to have some kind of a screen I do not know if it must be it would probably must be ex too expensive though t like I do not know 
Marketing: But like mobile phones have screens and they are cheap 
Project Manager: I mean we have to remember our budget is twelve point twelve fifty for to actually make the device but it is something to think about 
User Interface: Well I guess we have to get to that later 
Project Manager: I mean we will have to see how much that would be","Since User Interface initially suggested less button feature on the remote control, so Project Manager suggested a telly screen like what phones have. And User Interface mentioned about the master control in electronic houses. However, User Interface thought it is a bit expensive to create this feature, but Marketing mentioned the similar screen in phones is in the acceptable cost range. So, Project Manager agreed and suggested further discussion in the coming meeting."
"Marketing: and the other thing you said that thing about robust and water What was the word ? No but it is I thought ah spot on Good feel tact tactile good tactile feel maybe something didn does not make your hands sweat lot 
Project Manager: Maybe just like a simple thing to have a clip on it like so you can clip it to your","User Interface reiterated that the remote control should have a robust and water resistant function. Marketing also mentioned a good tactile feel for the remote control function, which doesn't make hand sweat a lot. Therefore, Project Manager suggested a clip feature on the remote control so that people can clip it to their device."
"Project Manager: Oh my gosh this is disastrous Sorry about that So moving on Our selling price goal is twenty five Euro and profit aim is fifty million Euro So I am guessing that we are not actually in Scotland we are in some European country and we will hope to sell this internationally 
User Interface: Sorry can you just say that what is the what are our price goals again ? 
Project Manager: selling price is twenty five Euro Profit aim fifty million Euro 
Marketing: How many should we sell then ? a lot two two two million two mi no more f four million well it is the profit so if a profit for each is twelve fifty that will do four million","The selling price goal is 25 Euros and profit aim is fifty million Euros. Selling target is four million and the profit goal is fifty percent. So Project Manager mentioned that the group hopes to sell the remote control device internationally, instead of in Scotland or some European country."
"Professor B: this way and just slightly to the left 
PhD A: The What was Was this number pause forty or It was roughly the same as this one pause he said ? When you had the two language versus the three language ? 
Professor B: That s what he was saying 
PhD A: That s where he removed English 
Grad F: It sometimes actually depends on what features you are using 
Professor B: But but i it sounds like I mean That s interesting because pause it it seems like what it s saying is not so much that you got hurt pause because pause you pause did not have so much representation of English because in the other case you do not get hurt any more at least when pause it seemed like it it might simply be a case that you have something that is just much more diverse but you have the same number of parameters representing it 
PhD A: Mm I wonder were all three of these nets pause using the same output ? This multi language pause labelling ? 
Grad F: He was using sixty four phonemes from pause SAMPA 
PhD A: So this would pause From this you would say `` well it does not really matter if we put Finnish pause into pause the training of the neural net pause if there s pause going to be pause you know Finnish in the test data `` Right ? 
Professor B: Well it s it sounds pause I mean we have to be careful cuz we have not gotten a good result yet And comparing different bad results can be pause tricky But I I I pause I think it does suggest that it s not so much pause cross pause language as cross type of speech It s it s But we did Oh the other thing I was asking him though is that I think that in the case you you do have to be careful because of com compounded results I think we got some earlier results pause in which you trained on one language and tested on another and you did not have pause three but you just had one pause language So you trained on pause one type of digits and tested on another Didn Was not there something of that ? Where you pause say trained on Spanish and tested on on TI digits or the other way around ? Something like that ? I thought there was something like that pause that he showed me pause last week We will have to wait till we get This may have been what I was asking before Stephane but pause but was not there something that you did pause where you trained pause on one language and tested on another ? I mean no no mixture but just 
Grad F: I will get it for you 
Professor B: We ve never just trained on one lang 
PhD D: Training on a single language you mean and testing on the other one ? So the only pause task that s similar to this is the training on two languages and comment that 
Professor B: But we ve done a bunch of things where we just trained on one language Right ? I mean you have not you have not done all your tests on multiple languages 
PhD D: No Either thi this is test with pause the same language pause but from the broad data or it s test with pause different languages also from the broad data excluding the So it s it s three or three and four 
PhD A: Did you do different languages from digits ? 
PhD D: No You mean pause training digits pause on one language and using the net pause to recognize on the other ? 
PhD A: Digits on another language ? 
Professor B: See I thought you showed me something like that last week You had a you had a little 
PhD D: pause No I do not think so 
PhD C: These numbers are pause ratio to baseline ? 
Professor B: So I mean wha what s the This this chart this table that we are looking at pause is show is all testing for TI digits or ? 
PhD D: So you have basically two pause parts 
Grad F: This is error rate I think 
PhD D: The upper part is for TI digits and it s divided in three pause rows pause of four four rows each And the first four rows is well matched then the s the second group of four rows is mismatched and pause finally highly mismatched And then the lower part is for Italian and it s the same pause the same thing 
PhD A: So so the upper part is training pause TI digits ? 
PhD D: So It s it s the HTK results I mean So it s pause HTK training testings pause with different kind of features and what appears in the pause left column is pause the networks that are used for doing this 
Professor B: Well What was is that i What was it that you had pause done pause last week when you showed Do you remember ? Wh when you showed me pause the your table last week ? 
PhD D: It It was part of these results Mmm Mmm 
PhD A: So where is the baseline pause for the TI digits pause located in here ? 
PhD D: You mean the HTK Aurora baseline ? It s the one hundred number It s well all these numbers are the ratio pause with respect to the baseline 
PhD A: Ah ! Ah OK OK 
Professor B: So this is word word error rate so a high number is bad 
PhD D: this is pause a word error rate ratio So seventy point two means that pause we reduced the error rate by thirty thirty percent 
Professor B: OK so if we take let s see PLP pause with on line pause normalization and pause delta del so that s this thing you have circled here pause in the second column pause and `` multi English `` refers to what ? 
PhD D: To TIMIT Mmm Then you have pause MF pause MS and ME which are for French Spanish and English And Actually I pause I forgot to say that pause the multilingual net are trained pause on pause pause features without the s derivatives but with pause increased frame numbers Mmm And we can we can see on the first line of the table that it it pause it s slightly slightly worse when we do not use delta but it s not pause not that much 
Professor B: Right So w w So I m sorry I missed that What s MF MS and ME ? 
PhD D: So Multi French Multi Spanish and Multi English 
Professor B: OK So it s pause pause broader vocabulary Then And OK so I think what I m what I saw in your smaller chart that I was thinking of was was pause there were some numbers I saw I think that included these multiple languages and it and I was seeing pause that it got worse I I think that was all it was You had some very limited results that at that point which showed pause having in these these other languages In fact it might have been just this last category pause having two languages broad that were where where English was removed So that was cross language and the and the result was quite poor What I pause we had not seen yet was that if you added in the English it s still poor now what s the noise condition pause pause of the training data Well I think this is what you were explaining The noise condition is the same It s the same Aurora noises in all these cases pause for the training So there s not a pause statistical sta a strong st pause statistically different pause noise characteristic between pause the training and test 
PhD D: No these are the s s s same noises 
Professor B: and yet we are seeing some kind of effect 
PhD D: At least at least for the first pause for the well matched 
Professor B: So there s some kind of a a an effect from having these this broader coverage Now I guess what we should try doing with this is try pause testing these on you this same sort of thing on you probably must have this pause lined up to do To try the same t pause with the exact same training do testing on pause the other languages On on So oh I well wait a minute You have this here for the Italian That s right OK so pause So 
PhD D: so for the Italian the results are pause stranger pause Mmm So what appears is that perhaps Spanish is pause not very close to Italian because well pause when using the the network trained only on Spanish it s pause the error rate is pause almost twice pause the baseline error rate 
Professor B: Well I mean let s see Is there any difference in So it s in pause the So you are saying that pause when you train on English pause and pause pause and and test on",Using multiple languages led to more diversity which potentially hindered the model performance. The professor was skeptical about discussing the results since they had not received any good ones so far.
"PhD D: To TIMIT Mmm Then you have pause MF pause MS and ME which are for French Spanish and English And Actually I pause I forgot to say that pause the multilingual net are trained pause on pause pause features without the s derivatives but with pause increased frame numbers Mmm And we can we can see on the first line of the table that it it pause it s slightly slightly worse when we do not use delta but it s not pause not that much 
Professor B: Right So w w So I m sorry I missed that What s MF MS and ME ? 
PhD D: So Multi French Multi Spanish and Multi English 
Professor B: OK So it s pause pause broader vocabulary Then And OK so I think what I m what I saw in your smaller chart that I was thinking of was was pause there were some numbers I saw I think that included these multiple languages and it and I was seeing pause that it got worse I I think that was all it was You had some very limited results that at that point which showed pause having in these these other languages In fact it might have been just this last category pause having two languages broad that were where where English was removed So that was cross language and the and the result was quite poor What I pause we had not seen yet was that if you added in the English it s still poor","PhD D explained that the multilingual model, trained on French, Spanish, and English, was trained with higher frame rates. It has slightly poorer results when delta was not used. All in all, the addition of English did not seem to help the model."
"Professor B: I mean That s interesting because pause it it seems like what it s saying is not so much that you got hurt pause because pause you pause did not have so much representation of English because in the other case you do not get hurt any more at least when pause it seemed like it it might simply be a case that you have something that is just much more diverse but you have the same number of parameters representing it 
PhD A: Mm I wonder were all three of these nets pause using the same output ? This multi language pause labelling ? 
Grad F: He was using sixty four phonemes from pause SAMPA 
PhD A: So this would pause From this you would say `` well it does not really matter if we put Finnish pause into pause the training of the neural net pause if there s pause going to be pause you know Finnish in the test data `` Right ? 
Professor B: Well it s it sounds pause I mean we have to be careful cuz we have not gotten a good result yet And comparing different bad results can be pause tricky But I I I pause I think it does suggest that it s not so much pause cross pause language as cross type of speech It s it s But we did Oh the other thing I was asking him though is that I think that in the case you you do have to be careful because of com compounded results I think we got some earlier results pause in which you trained on one language and tested on another and you did not have pause three but you just had one pause language So you trained on pause one type of digits and tested on another Didn Was not there something of that ? Where you pause say trained on Spanish and tested on on TI digits or the other way around ? Something like that ? I thought there was something like that pause that he showed me pause last week We will have to wait till we get This may have been what I was asking before Stephane but pause but was not there something that you did pause where you trained pause on one language and tested on another ? I mean no no mixture but just 
Grad F: I will get it for you 
Professor B: We ve never just trained on one lang 
PhD D: Training on a single language you mean and testing on the other one ?",The professor thought that the model did not get hurt that much because of the removal of English. He also thought it would be worthwhile to train on one language and test on another.
"PhD D: Twenty seven broad classes So like oh I do not know like back vowels front vowels 
Professor B: So what you do I just want to understand 
PhD D: For the moments we do not do not have nets 
Professor B: so pause You have two net or three nets ? Was this ? How many how many nets do you have ? No nets 
PhD D: I mean pause It s just Were we just changing pause the labels to retrain nets pause with fewer out outputs 
PhD E: Begin to work in this We are 
Professor B: Right But but I did not understand pause the software currently just has a allows for I think the one one hot output So you are having multiple nets and combining them or ? how are you how are you coming up with If you say pause pause If you have a place pause characteristic and a manner characteristic how do you 
PhD D: It It s the single net 
PhD A: I think they have one output 
Professor B: Oh it s just one net 
PhD D: It s one net with pause pause twenty seven outputs if we have twenty seven classes 
Professor B: I see I see OK 
PhD D: So it s Well it s basically a standard net with fewer pause classes 
Professor B: So you are sort of going the other way of what you were saying a bit ago instead of 
PhD D: but I think B b including the features I do not think this pause will work pause alone I think it will get worse because Well I believe the effect that of of too reducing too much the information is pause basically basically what happens 
Professor B: But you think if you include that pause plus the other features 
PhD D: but because pause there is perhaps one important thing that the net pause brings and OGI show showed that is pause the distinction between pause sp speech and silence Because these nets are trained on well controlled condition I mean the labels are obtained on clean speech and we add noise after So this is one thing And But perhaps something intermediary using also pause some broad classes could could bring so much more information 
Professor B: So so again then we have these broad classes and well somewhat broad I mean it s twenty seven instead of sixty four pause basically And you have the original features Which are PLP or something And then just to remind me all of that goes pause into that all of that is transformed by K KL or something or ? 
PhD D: Mm There will probably be one single KL to transform everything 
PhD E: and only transform the other I m not sure 
PhD D: This is pause still something pause that we pause do not know 
Professor B: So there s a question of whether you would 
PhD E: Two e it s one 
Professor B: Right Whether you would transform together or just one Might want to try it both ways But that s interesting So that s something that you are you have not trained yet but are preparing to train and pause pause so I think Hynek will be here Monday So I think you know we need to pause choose the choose the experiments carefully so we can get key pause key questions answered pause before then and pause leave other ones aside even if it pause leaves incomplete pause tables pause someplace pause it s it s really time to pause time to choose let me pass this out pause by the way These are Did did pause did I interrupt you ? Were there other things that you wanted to 
PhD D: no I do not think so 
Professor B: Ah ! pause OK pause OK we have pause lots of them OK so Something I asked So they are they are doing pause the the VAD I guess they mean voice activity detection So again it s the silence So they ve just trained up a net pause which has two outputs I believe I asked pause Hynek whether I have not talked to Sunil I asked Hynek whether pause they compared that to pause just taking the nets we already had pause and summing up the probabilities pause To get the speech voice activity detection or else just using the silence pause if there s only one pause silence output pause And he did not think they had But on the other hand maybe they can get by with a smaller net and pause maybe pause sometimes you do not run the other maybe there s a computational advantage to having a separate net anyway So Their pause the results look pretty good pause I mean not uniformly I mean there s a an example or two pause that you can find where it made it slightly worse but pause in in all but a couple pause examples 
PhD E: But they have a question of the result how are trained the the LDA filter ? How obtained the LDA filter ? 
Professor B: I I m sorry I do not understand your question 
PhD E: Yes the LDA filter pause needs some pause training set pause to obtain the filter Maybe I do not know exactly how pause they are obtained 
Professor B: It s on pause training 
PhD E: Training with the training test of each You understand me ? for example pause LDA filter pause need a set of pause a set of training pause to obtain the filter And maybe pause for the Italian for the TD pause TE on for Finnish these filter are are obtained with their own training set 
Professor B: Yes I do not know That s that s so that s a that s a very good question then now that it pause I understand it It s `` where does the LDA come from ? `` In the In pause earlier experiments they had taken LDA pause from a completely different database right ? 
PhD E: because maybe it the same situation that the neural network training with their own 
Professor B: So that s a good question Where does it come from ? I do not know pause but to tell you the pause truth I was not actually looking at the LDA so much when I I was looking at it I was pause mostly thinking about the pause the VAD And it ap pause it ap Oh what does what does ASP ? Oh that s 
PhD E: I do not understand also 
Professor B: It says `` baseline ASP `` 
PhD E: what is pause what is the difference between ASP and baseline over ? 
Professor B: Cuz there s `` baseline Aurora `` pause above it And it s This is mostly better than baseline although in some cases it s a little worse in a couple cases 
PhD C: Well it says baseline ASP is twenty three mill pause minus thirteen 
Professor B: it says what it is But I do not how that s different pause from 
PhD C: From the baseline comment OK 
Professor B: I think this was pause I think this is the same point we were at when when we were up in Oregon 
PhD D: I think pause I think it s the C zero using C zero instead of log energy 
PhD A: They s they say in here that the VAD is not used as an additional feature Does does anybody know how they are using it ? 
Professor B: So so what they are doing here is pause i if you look down at the block diagram pause pause they estimate they get a pause they get an estimate pause of whether it s speech or silence and then they have a median filter of it And so pause basically they are trying to find stretches The median filter is enforcing a i it having some continuity You find stretches where the pause combination of the pause frame wise VAD and the pause the median filter say that there s a stretch of silence And then it s going through and just throwing the data away 
PhD A: So it s it s I do not understand You mean it s throwing out frames ? Before 
Professor B: It s throwing out chunks of frames There s the the median filter is enforcing that it s not going to be single cases of frames or isolated frames So it s throwing out frames and the thing is pause pause what I do not understand is how they are doing this with H T 
PhD A: that s what I was just going to ask How can you just throw out frames ? 
Professor B: right ? I mean y you you it stretches again For single frames I think it would be pretty hard But if you say speech starts here speech ends there 
PhD D: you can basically remove the the frames from the feature feature files 
Professor B: so I mean in the i i in the in the decoding you are saying that we are going to decode from here to here I think they are they are they are treating it pause you know like well it s not isolated word but but connected you know the the 
PhD A: In the text they say that this this is a tentative block diagram of a possible configuration we could think of So that sort of sounds like they are not doing that yet 
Professor B: Well pause No they they have numbers though right ? So I think they are they are doing something like that I think that they are they are I think what I mean by tha that is they are trying to come up with a block diagram that s plausible for the standard In other words it s I mean from the point of view of of reducing the number of bits you have to transmit it s not a bad idea to detect silence anyway 
PhD A: I m just wondering what exactly did they do up in this table if it was not this 
Professor B: But it s the thing is it s that that that s that s I I Certainly it would be tricky about it intrans in transmitting voice pause for listening to is that these kinds of things pause cut pause speech off a lot Right ? And so pause 
PhD A: Plus it s going to introduce delays 
Professor B: It does introduce delays but they are claiming that it s it s within the pause the boundaries of it And the LDA introduces delays and b pause what he s suggesting this here is a parallel path so that it does not introduce pause any more delay I it introduces two hundred milliseconds of delay but at the same pause time the LDA pause down here I do not know Wh what s the difference between TLDA and SLDA ? So The temporal LDA does in fact include the same so that I think he well by by saying this is a b a tentative block di diagram I think means pause if you construct it this way this this delay would work in that way and then it would be OK They they clearly did actually remove pause silent sections in order because they pause got these pause word error rate pause results So I think that it s it s nice to do that in this because in fact it s going to give a better word error result and therefore will help within an evaluation Whereas to whether this would actually be in a final standard I do not know as you know part of the problem with evaluation right now is that the pause word models are pretty bad and nobody wants pause has has approached improving them So pause it s possible that a lot of the problems pause with so many insertions and so forth would go away if they were better word models pause to begin with So pause this might just be a temporary thing But But on the other hand and maybe maybe it s a decent idea So The question we are going to want to go pause through next week when Hynek shows up I guess is given that we ve been if you look at what we ve been trying we are looking at pause by then I guess combinations of features and multi band and we ve been looking at pause cross language cross pause task pause issues And they ve been not so much looking at pause the cross task multiple language issues But they ve been looking at pause at these issues At the on line normalization and the pause voice activity detection And I guess when he comes here we are going to have to start deciding about pause what do we choose pause from what we ve looked at pause to blend with pause some group of things in what they ve looked at And once we choose that pause how do we split up the pause effort ? because we still have even once we choose pause we ve still got pause another pause month or so I mean there s holidays in the way but but pause I think the evaluation data comes January thirty first so there s still a fair amount of time pause to do things together it s just that they probably should be somewhat more coherent between the two sites pause in that that amount of time 
PhD A: When they removed the silence frames did they insert some kind of a marker so that the recognizer knows it s pause knows when it s time to back trace or something ? 
Professor B: Well see they I I think they are I do not know the pause the specifics of how they are doing it They are pause they are getting around the way the recognizer works because they are not allowed to pause change the scripts pause for the recognizer pause I believe 
PhD A: Oh right Maybe they are just inserting some nummy frames or something ? 
Professor B: So you know that s what I had thought But I do not I do not think they are I mean that s sort of what the way I had imagined would happen is that on the other side you p put some low level noise or something Probably do not want all zeros Most recognizers do not like zeros but but pause you know pause put some epsilon in or some rand sorry epsilon random variable pause in or something 
PhD A: Some constant vector I mean i w Or something 
Professor B: Maybe not a constant but it does not do not like to divide by the variance of that but I mean it s 
PhD A: That s right But something that what I mean is something that is pause very distinguishable from pause speech So that the the silence model in HTK will always pick it up 
Professor B: So I I that s what I thought they would do or else pause maybe there is some indicator to tell it to start and stop I do not know But whatever they did I mean they have to play within the rules of this specific evaluation We c we can find out 
PhD A: Cuz you got to do something Otherwise if it s just a bunch of speech stuck together 
Professor B: and it did not so badly right ? So they did something So OK So I think pause this brings me up to date a bit It hopefully brings other pause people up to date a bit And pause I think I want to look at these numbers off line a little bit and think about it and pause and talk with everybody pause outside of this meeting but No I mean it sounds like I mean pause there there there are the usual number of of pause little little problems and bugs and so forth but it sounds like they are getting ironed out And now we are pause seem to be kind of in a position to actually pause pause look at stuff and and and compare things So I think that s that s pretty good pause I do not know what the One of the things I wonder about pause coming back to the first results you talked about is is pause how much pause pause things could be helped pause by more parameters And pause And how many more parameters we can afford to have pause in terms of the computational limits Because anyway when we go to pause twice as much data pause and have the same number of parameters particularly when it s twice as much data and it s quite diverse I wonder if having twice as many parameters would help just have a bigger hidden layer But I doubt it would pause help by forty per cent But pause but Just curious How are we doing on the pause resources ? Disk and 
PhD D: I think we are alright pause not much problems with that Well this table took pause more than five days to get back 
Professor B: Are were you folks using Gin ? That s a that just died you know ? 
PhD D: Mmm no You were using Gin comment perhaps ? No 
Professor B: No ? Oh that s good OK pause we are going to get a replacement pause server that will be a faster server pause actually That will be It s a pause seven hundred fifty megahertz SUN pause But it will not be installed for pause a little while 
Grad G: Do we Do we have that big new IBM machine the I think in th 
Professor B: We have the pause little tiny IBM machine pause that might someday grow up to be a big pause IBM machine It s got s slots for eight IBM was donating five I think we only got two so far processors We had originally hoped we were getting eight hundred megahertz processors They ended up being five fifty So instead of having eight processors that were eight hundred megahertz we ended up with two pause that are five hundred and fifty megahertz And more are supposed to come soon and there s only a moderate amount of dat of memory So I do not think pause anybody has been sufficiently excited by it to pause spend much time pause pause with it but Hopefully pause they will get us some more pause parts soon and I think that will be once we get it populated pause that will be a nice machine I mean we will ultimately get eight processors in there And and a nice amount of memory so it will be a pr pretty fast Linux machine 
Grad G: And if we can do things on Linux pause some of the machines we have going already like Swede ? But I think Fudge is pretty fast too 
Professor B: I mean you can check with pause Dave Johnson I mean it it s pause I think the machine is just sitting there And it does have two processors you know and pause Somebody could do pause you know check out pause the multi threading pause libraries And pause I mean i it s possible that the I mean I guess the prudent thing to do would be for somebody to do the work on pause on getting our code running pause on that machine with two processors pause even though there are not five or eight There s there s there s going to be debugging hassles and then we would be set for when we did have five or eight to have it really be useful But pause Notice how I said somebody and turned my head your direction That s one thing you do not get in these recordings You do not get the pause do not get the visuals but 
Grad G: I is it pause mostly the neural network trainings that are pause slowing us down or the HTK runs that are slowing us down ? 
Professor B: I think yes Is not that right ? I mean I think you are you are sort of held up by both right ? If the if the neural net trainings were a hundred times faster pause you still would not pause be anything running through these a hundred times faster because you would pause be stuck by the HTK trainings But if the HTK I mean I think they are both It sounded like they were roughly equal ? Is that about right ? 
Grad G: Because pause I think that will be running Linux and Sw Swede and Fudge are already running Linux so pause I could try to get pause the train the neural network trainings or the HTK stuff running under Linux and to start with I m pause wondering which one I should pick first 
Professor B: probably the neural net cuz it s probably it it s pause it s Well I I do not know They both HTK we use for pause pause this Aurora stuff pause I think pause It s not clear yet what we are going to use pause for trainings Well pause there s the trainings is it the training that takes the time or the decoding ? is it about equal pause between the two ? For for Aurora ? For For the Aurora ? OK Well I do not know how we can I do not know how to Do we have HTK source ? Is that You would think that would fairly trivially the training would anyway th the testing pause I do not I do not pause think would pause parallelize all that well But I think pause that pause you could pause certainly do d pause distributed sort of pause Ah no it s the pause each individual pause sentence is pretty tricky to parallelize But you could split up the sentences in a test set 
PhD A: They have a they have a thing for doing that and th they have for awhile in H T And you can parallelize the training And run it on several machines and it just basically keeps counts And there s something pause a final pause thing that you run and it accumulates all the counts together I do not what their scripts are pause set up to do for the Aurora stuff but 
Professor B: Something that we have not really settled on yet is other than pause this Aurora stuff pause what do we do large vocabulary pause training slash testing pause for tandem systems Cuz we had not really done much with tandem systems for larger stuff Cuz we had this one collaboration with CMU and we used SPHINX we are also going to be collaborating with SRI and we have their have theirs pause So pause I do not know So I I think the the advantage of going with the neural net thing is that we are going to use the neural net trainings no matter what for a lot of the things we are doing whereas w exactly which HMM Gaussian mixture based HMM thing we use is going to depend So with that maybe we should go to our nonvocalsound digit recitation task And it s about eleven fifty Canned I can I can start over here Great could you give Adam a call Tell him to He s at two nine seven seven OK I think we can You know Herve s coming tomorrow right ? Herve will be giving a talk talk at eleven Did did everybody sign these consent Er everybody Has everyone signed a consent form before on previous meetings ? You do not have to do it again each time Yes microphones off","The team discussed the size of the neural net, which was just a simple net. At the time, it had 27 outputs, but the professor recommended that they use a larger net, with perhaps more features. They discussed the effect that removing silent frames could have on the model. The professor recommended having a bigger hidden layer, though he did not think that would substantially improve performance. Currently, however, the team was facing computational limitations."
"Professor B: So OK So I think pause this brings me up to date a bit It hopefully brings other pause people up to date a bit And pause I think I want to look at these numbers off line a little bit and think about it and pause and talk with everybody pause outside of this meeting but No I mean it sounds like I mean pause there there there are the usual number of of pause little little problems and bugs and so forth but it sounds like they are getting ironed out And now we are pause seem to be kind of in a position to actually pause pause look at stuff and and and compare things So I think that s that s pretty good pause I do not know what the One of the things I wonder about pause coming back to the first results you talked about is is pause how much pause pause things could be helped pause by more parameters And pause And how many more parameters we can afford to have pause in terms of the computational limits Because anyway when we go to pause twice as much data pause and have the same number of parameters particularly when it s twice as much data and it s quite diverse I wonder if having twice as many parameters would help just have a bigger hidden layer But I doubt it would pause help by forty per cent But pause but Just curious How are we doing on the pause resources ? Disk and 
PhD D: I think we are alright pause not much problems with that Well this table took pause more than five days to get back 
Professor B: Are were you folks using Gin ? That s a that just died you know ? 
PhD D: Mmm no You were using Gin comment perhaps ? No 
Professor B: No ? Oh that s good OK pause we are going to get a replacement pause server that will be a faster server pause actually That will be It s a pause seven hundred fifty megahertz SUN pause But it will not be installed for pause a little while 
Grad G: Do we Do we have that big new IBM machine the I think in th 
Professor B: We have the pause little tiny IBM machine pause that might someday grow up to be a big pause IBM machine It s got s slots for eight IBM was donating five I think we only got two so far processors We had originally hoped we were getting eight hundred megahertz processors They ended up being five fifty So instead of having eight processors that were eight hundred megahertz we ended up with two pause that are five hundred and fifty megahertz And more are supposed to come soon and there s only a moderate amount of dat of memory So I do not think pause anybody has been sufficiently excited by it to pause spend much time pause pause with it but Hopefully pause they will get us some more pause parts soon and I think that will be once we get it populated pause that will be a nice machine I mean we will ultimately get eight processors in there And and a nice amount of memory so it will be a pr pretty fast Linux machine 
Grad G: And if we can do things on Linux pause some of the machines we have going already like Swede ?","The team was concerned about the availability of computational resources. The Professor informed them that they had received two 550 megahertz processors by IBM. Though, they were originally expecting eight 800 megahertz processors."
"PhD A: Plus it s going to introduce delays 
Professor B: It does introduce delays but they are claiming that it s it s within the pause the boundaries of it And the LDA introduces delays and b pause what he s suggesting this here is a parallel path so that it does not introduce pause any more delay I it introduces two hundred milliseconds of delay but at the same pause time the LDA pause down here I do not know Wh what s the difference between TLDA and SLDA ? So The temporal LDA does in fact include the same so that I think he well by by saying this is a b a tentative block di diagram I think means pause if you construct it this way this this delay would work in that way",The team talked about delays when discussing the removal of frames that were silent. This could possibly improve model performance at the cost of a small delay.
"Marketing: Well findings Ease of use is important but innovation is more important and a fancy look and feel is even more important And some fashion watchers have found out that the young target group likes fruit and vegetables in their clothes shoes and furniture and that they want spongy material Probably watch too much Sponge Bob the older group still prefers dark colours Simple shapes m material But we since we are concentrating on the younger group 
Project Manager: w wait a sec wait a se could you go to the previous slide ? because I am taking minutes were the important themes enclose The feel of to be spongy 
Industrial Designer: so do you think when fruit and vegetables are important for clothing and shoes that they are in remote controls also ? 
Marketing: Well one example given was this so I assume they just want something colourful Not specifically an apple as a remote control or something 
User Interface: But they like dark colours you said in the p 
Marketing: No the younger group likes more colourful objects 
User Interface: Well then I suggest that the corporate colours are grey and yellow 
Industrial Designer: But can you can you go back to that slide ? The no no no Yes and the feel of the material has to be spongy Has it something to do with that natural feeling also do you think ? 
Marketing: But personally I would not like a sponge as a remote control But Maybe soft material or something But not a real sponge 
Project Manager: so so it might not be t it it should not be too hard It it maybe it rubber or or 
Marketing: and like the older group likes familiar materials 
User Interface: Or we could make oh 
Marketing: but that does not mean we should use wood So Well this this is an example of what they would like But since we are conten concentrating on the younger group I think we should use soft materials and make it colourful or like cell phones exch exchangeable covers So we could provide both for the young and the old what they like 
Project Manager: You could make a few v very colourful ones and a very traditional co cover 
User Interface: o o I am thinking about the Bananarama telephone telephone from Siemens The yellow rubber telephone It is the it is the rubber cover 
Project Manager: it is it is i 
User Interface: It looks likes a banana We have the fruit we have the colours We have the simple design 
Project Manager: Do you know the phone ? 
Industrial Designer: I do not know the phone 
Project Manager: It is the Siemens C twenty five 
Industrial Designer: but I can imagine it 
Project Manager: I believe it is it is the one the Postbank gave away 
User Interface: And the b the light blue and it is also in yellow 
Industrial Designer: Now I kn oh I know I know Yes I I have seen it I have seen it 
Project Manager: You kn you know Ruud as well ? About th Do you have thit that was 
Marketing: Kay that is about it 
Project Manager: so the the m important findings are innovation is more important than ease of use for the our target group And colouring is important and and soft materials 
Industrial Designer: So So ease of use is important but technology is twice as important And what was even more important ? 
Marketing: the fancy look and feel 
Industrial Designer: So that is the most important thing for our customers 
Project Manager: could you do your presentation ? 
User Interface: Mmhmm Well I do not ha really have much to add because most of things we already said in the previous discussion 
Project Manager: well it is good to to sum up the things we already thought about 
User Interface: the previous ideas were voice recognition and the round button for the p channel programming and volume Well a few interface I I found on the internet are are these These are both with with voice recognition but they are very advanced and very hightech and just well a weird shape So I suggest I could not I had a small mockup sign on the on paper But it did not work My pen did not load the information So I made a really simple f a shape on in PowerPoint But we could make a round an oval remote control yellow 
Industrial Designer: Mmhmm But it is it is kind of it is kind of o organic so that is very good 
Project Manager: And what I am thinking about maybe we should make very light but a grip I mean this is how you hold a remote control it should not be too glatt too slippery 
User Interface: But if you have something like the Siemens phone it is rubber 
Industrial Designer: You have to grab it 
User Interface: So it is easy in your hand indeed 
Industrial Designer: Yes There are there are also remote controls who have a little shape underneath where you can put your fingers in so you can get a really good grip on it So you you do not have to attain much pressure to it It is it is a lot easier But I will I will go into that deeper in my presentation 
User Interface: Oh and to add on Ruuds information in this interface we can have hightech with the voice recognition and well the the fancy colours and and so on and still have the ease of use because we have an easy interface And all the other remote controls are hightech in buttons and and so on 
Project Manager: Way too much I think for our goal 
User Interface: So if you have the voice recognition you can you can programme like thirty thirty c controls on it 
Project Manager: b but I think we will 
Industrial Designer: but I will I will go into that because there are are some possibilities and some impossibilities I had a talk with our manufacturing division and we had a talk about all the different components who are in this design these are the things we have looked at And of course I used the web to find my information About the casing we have three different casing possibilities We have the uncurved or flat case that is the most common remote con control form we are used to is just a it ju it is just a box I am sorry I I do not have any pictures of of this thing We have a curved one It is curved in two dimensions You have to imagine it is a bit like a wave form So it is a little more advanced in its in its shape and we have an even more advanced shape which is curved in three dimension I c I think you can compare it a little bit with the big grey image you had in your presentation The the big remote control something like that","Marketing revealed that the younger target group preferred colourful objects and soft material. Project Manager agreed and added that the remote control should be light and not too slippery. Then Industrial Designer introduced three casing possibilities: uncurved, single-curved and double-curved. Considering that uncurved design could be too dull and double-curved design would make it difficult to use scroll-wheels, the team chose the single-curved design."
"Industrial Designer: no no no Yes and the feel of the material has to be spongy Has it something to do with that natural feeling also do you think ? 
Marketing: But personally I would not like a sponge as a remote control But Maybe soft material or something But not a real sponge 
Project Manager: so so it might not be t it it should not be too hard It it maybe it rubber or or 
Marketing: and like the older group likes familiar materials 
User Interface: Or we could make oh 
Marketing: but that does not mean we should use wood So Well this this is an example of what they would like But since we are conten concentrating on the younger group I think we should use soft materials and make it colourful or like cell phones exch exchangeable covers So we could provide both for the young and the old what they like 
Project Manager: You could make a few v very colourful ones and a very traditional co cover 
User Interface: o o I am thinking about the Bananarama telephone telephone from Siemens The yellow rubber telephone It is the it is the rubber cover","Industrial Designer supposed that natural feeling could be a factor. Marketing agreed and revealed that the younger target group preferred soft material but not necessarily a real sponge. Then User Interface proposed to use rubber, which was agreed by the whole team."
Industrial Designer: because there are are some possibilities and some impossibilities I had a talk with our manufacturing division and we had a talk about all the different components who are in this design these are the things we have looked at And of course I used the web to find my information About the casing we have three different casing possibilities We have the uncurved or flat case that is the most common remote con control form we are used to is just a it ju it is just a box I am sorry I I do not have any pictures of of this thing We have a curved one It is curved in two dimensions You have to imagine it is a bit like a wave form So it is a little more advanced in its in its shape and we have an even more advanced shape which is curved in three dimension I c I think you can compare it a little bit with the big grey image you had in your presentation The the big remote control something like that,"Industrial Designer introduced uncurved, single-curved and double-curved design at first. User Interface and Project Manager thought that uncurved design was too dull and Industrial Designer pointed out that double-curved design would make it impossible to use scroll-wheels, so the team selected single-curved design eventually."
"Industrial Designer: And we of course have the traditional solar power which is just a piece of material on the remote control which transfers light energy into electricity The user interface controls of course we have the pushbuttons and we also have scrollwheels And these scrollwheels can also be integrated with buttons So it is just like a mouse You can scroll them you can also push it in the indicators we have the LCD displays which means you can watch in a display w which channel you have chosen or something like that of the li amount of volume which is currently and we also have double scrollbuttons which are just two of these things So we do not really have the the kind of button we had in mind in our in our last meeting the the thing with the the round with the four 
User Interface: Mmhmm Oh we can just make four pushbuttons in a form of a round 
Industrial Designer: Yes That is possible too Yes 
User Interface: But I th I do not think the scrollwheels I had some I had some information about it too I do not think there is any possibility for us to use scrollwheels I d I can not see any scenario where you would use a scrollwheel with a button on it 
Industrial Designer: Well mayb well m me neither Maybe when you integrate some functions 
Project Manager: This will be the remote right ? with maybe a channel selector What about integrating a scrollbar on this side ? 
Industrial Designer: it is do it is done before 
Project Manager: Because this is how you keep it 
Industrial Designer: Yes It is quite quite good yes 
User Interface: But Flores think about a scenario where y where you would use the scrollbutton for 
Industrial Designer: Well it is it well i what he means is there is an button integrated in the scrollwheel There is no scenario where you use the button in the scrollwheel You just use the wheel 
Project Manager: Well what about mute ? Thi i i m I guess th this is my volume button And I can either on this side or this side 
Industrial Designer: Yes Well Well that that that is one possibility 
Project Manager: And click it to muten the device 
Industrial Designer: Well It is quite goods 
Project Manager: And and it makes it different from the traditional devices on this market So I am looking for a way to make it a little different than the traditional ones So maybe I guess that that is something you two need to think about Ruud wha what do you thing about a scrollbar ? scrollwheel 
Marketing: it is obvious obviously new So it might attract the young customers 
Industrial Designer: But it is done before there are many other devices like telephones and our radio pocket radios We use this And Well it is it is been done years ago and I do not see it anywhere now 
Project Manager: Well all the Sony telephones use it for example for volume 
Industrial Designer: So maybe it is not no 
Project Manager: Nokia has a well it is not really a scrollwheel but on their side th the the volume button is on the side because you gri grab it like this 
Industrial Designer: Yes but it uses two separate buttons 
Project Manager: I know it is not really a scrollwheel No 
Industrial Designer: It does not use a Well something for Roo here 
User Interface: I believe if you have what we have earlier said the grip places in in the remote control You have your hand on one place on the remote control so you have to place all the buttons in a range of your thumb 
Industrial Designer: Wi within reach Yes you have to 
User Interface: So in that case the volume button on the side of the remote control would be perfect 
Industrial Designer: we have to know if you want to use these rubber doublecurved c case you must use these push pushbuttons There is no way you can integrate LCD displays There is no way you can integrate scrollwheels because it is all curved There is there are no flat areas where you can incorporate these things So that is a limitation About the components just the hardware We basically have three types of chips we can use and these chips incorporate all the Logica and hardware that is needed to send to send a signal we have a simple regular and advanced chip And there is something like a sample sensor and sample speaker which is a little cryptic to me But I think that is the the voice recognition thing that we are thinking about 
User Interface: you can I have some information about it in the voice recognition you say a word you can programme words like v volume up Of mute let us say mute you programme it you m mute and you g you give an an action to it that that is really the mute function and when you speak in the the remote control it repeats your saying that is the sample sensor So So if you say mute it says mute again and then it is well I believe it is and then he he repeats its action what which he believes it is So you say mute he repeats mute and you makes a computer sound mute and then goes to the mute function 
Industrial Designer: so that is basically the the voice recognition item we were searching for This sample sensor requires an regular chip I thought no op I am not very sure No it is not in here If we want to use the LCD display we really need the advanced version which is a bit l little bit more costly If we want to use the scrollwheels we need the regular version And if we do not want to use any of these more advanced functions we can keep with the simple chip which is a bit cheaper 
Project Manager: d did we already decide on the display ? To 
Industrial Designer: no but I think that is something for Roo here to think about 
User Interface: Well I do not have I have not looked for for information about it but I do not think information y I do not think you need it on a display Especially when when we have to look at a cost I do not think 
Industrial Designer: I I do not think either 
User Interface: because all any TV can can view a digit on on screen 
Industrial Designer: No I do not think you need it","Industrial Designer proposed to use scroll-wheels, which could be integrated with buttons. User Interface doubted its practicability and then Project Manager proposed to integrate a scroll-bar on the side to mute the device. As they would not use an LCD display, a regular chip was enough."
"Industrial Designer: And we of course have the traditional solar power which is just a piece of material on the remote control which transfers light energy into electricity The user interface controls of course we have the pushbuttons and we also have scrollwheels And these scrollwheels can also be integrated with buttons So it is just like a mouse You can scroll them you can also push it in the indicators we have the LCD displays which means you can watch in a display w which channel you have chosen or something like that of the li amount of volume which is currently and we also have double scrollbuttons which are just two of these things So we do not really have the the kind of button we had in mind in our in our last meeting the the thing with the the round with the four 
User Interface: Mmhmm Oh we can just make four pushbuttons in a form of a round 
Industrial Designer: Yes That is possible too Yes 
User Interface: But I th I do not think the scrollwheels I had some I had some information about it too I do not think there is any possibility for us to use scrollwheels I d I can not see any scenario where you would use a scrollwheel with a button on it 
Industrial Designer: Well mayb well m me neither Maybe when you integrate some functions 
Project Manager: This will be the remote right ? with maybe a channel selector What about integrating a scrollbar on this side ? 
Industrial Designer: it is do it is done before 
Project Manager: Because this is how you keep it 
Industrial Designer: Yes It is quite quite good yes 
User Interface: But Flores think about a scenario where y where you would use the scrollbutton for 
Industrial Designer: Well it is it well i what he means is there is an button integrated in the scrollwheel There is no scenario where you use the button in the scrollwheel You just use the wheel 
Project Manager: Well what about mute ? Thi i i m I guess th this is my volume button And I can either on this side or this side 
Industrial Designer: Yes Well Well that that that is one possibility 
Project Manager: And click it to muten the device 
Industrial Designer: Well It is quite goods 
Project Manager: And and it makes it different from the traditional devices on this market So I am looking for a way to make it a little different than the traditional ones So maybe I guess that that is something you two need to think about Ruud wha what do you thing about a scrollbar ? scrollwheel 
Marketing: it is obvious obviously new So it might attract the young customers 
Industrial Designer: But it is done before there are many other devices like telephones and our radio pocket radios We use this And Well it is it is been done years ago and I do not see it anywhere now 
Project Manager: Well all the Sony telephones use it for example for volume 
Industrial Designer: So maybe it is not no 
Project Manager: Nokia has a well it is not really a scrollwheel but on their side th the the volume button is on the side because you gri grab it like this 
Industrial Designer: Yes but it uses two separate buttons 
Project Manager: I know it is not really a scrollwheel No 
Industrial Designer: It does not use a Well something for Roo here",Industrial Designer proposed to use scroll-wheels integrated with buttons. User Interface doubted its practicability and supposed that a round button with four directions could be better. But Project Manager liked the idea of scroll-wheels as it might attract young customers and suggested that they could be used to mute the device.
"Industrial Designer: so that is basically the the voice recognition item we were searching for This sample sensor requires an regular chip I thought no op I am not very sure No it is not in here If we want to use the LCD display we really need the advanced version which is a bit l little bit more costly If we want to use the scrollwheels we need the regular version And if we do not want to use any of these more advanced functions we can keep with the simple chip which is a bit cheaper 
Project Manager: d did we already decide on the display ? To 
Industrial Designer: no but I think that is something for Roo here to think about 
User Interface: Well I do not have I have not looked for for information about it but I do not think information y I do not think you need it on a display Especially when when we have to look at a cost I do not think 
Industrial Designer: I I do not think either 
User Interface: because all any TV can can view a digit on on screen 
Industrial Designer: No I do not think you need it","Industrial Manager revealed that if LCD was used, they had to choose advanced chips. Project Manager thought it was within the budget and LCD displays could add extra high-tech feeling. User Interface then pointed out that they already had too many high-tech substances including scroll-wheels, voice recognition and a fancy look so they didn't need to use LCD displays."
"Dafydd Evans: Could I start and then open it up ? Thank you very much for the opportunity to give evidence But just to give you the context I think if you were asking about the vast majority of subjects what the view of ColegauCymru would be it would be quite unanimous but I think on the Welsh bac there is a difference of opinion and I am sure you will hear those differences on the panel before you today We have possibly chosen this panel because there are differences of opinion So I just want to give you that context at the outset To answer the specific question no I do not think that employers have a clear understanding of what the Welsh bac means or what it includes Personally I do not think that even the title of the Welsh bac is helpful because it does not say what is happening in the tin So I think the skills challenge certificate is a better title and is something that people understand a lot better than the Welsh bac So no I do not think that employers understand the value or what we are trying to achieve through the Welsh bac at present 
Sian Gwenllian AM: Which is a big problem 
Dafydd Evans: Yes it is a huge problem but not only to employers but also to parents and young people of course 
Dr Rachel Bowen: And I think that that varies by size of employer as well That certainly where there are larger employers who have got people who are able to follow policy developments across the education spectrum they may have more capacity to follow changes get up to date with how Welsh education is evolving But we know that most employers in Wales are small or microbusinesses And while there are lots of small engaged employers who have taken an interest and do understand the vast majority are more focused on getting on with the daytoday running of the business And that means it is quite a challenge to understand what is the Welsh bac what does it offer And certainly when that is evolved over the past few years and there have been changes it would have been quite difficult to keep up to date with those I imagine 
Nick Brazil: Could I add to that ? As do many of my colleagues within the colleges we have a number of employer boards which we regularly meet with—employers—and I can not think back as to how many employers say to us That is what we require—the Welsh bac—to come and work within our industry Most of what they are questioning is the level of professional qualifications and the quality of skills within those professional sectors Not many of them have indicated that the Welsh bac is providing the skills that they require I think many of them believe in the vision that was set out for the Welsh bac initially but the Welsh bac has turned into quite a rigorous some would say demanding qualification which is putting a lot of pressure on in terms of bureaucracy in terms of staff and the student getting all the information together at the end of the year and whether that is developing the skills that employers require is very questionable And as I said from the employer boards that we have very few of them understand the Welsh bac They certainly do not mention the Welsh bac and as I said are very much questioning the qualifications that have been provided to develop the actual professional skills needed within the industries 
Sian Gwenllian AM: Kay is that your experience ? 
Kay Martin: Certainly it is very similar and our employers want to make sure they get the right qualification They are having enough headache getting around the differences with apprenticeships and the levy between England and Wales and changes to qualifications But they want them to get their main qualification So if you are an engineer they want to get the engineering qualifications and they want them to be literate numerate and they want them to have digital skills And that is not captured necessarily in the Welsh baccalaureate And so the understanding is quite limited amongst the employers we work with 
Sian Gwenllian AM: And finally I know you have got strong views as an organisation 
Ed Evans: Do you mind if I carry on in English— —just so that a lot of our members will understand when I am speaking I think it is fair to say employers do not understand it that is for sure but I think if they did they would really appreciate this For my sector in particular—the civil engineering sector—and particularly the contracting sector which depends very much on pupils who have come through from a less academic background the Welsh bac gives them that ability I guess not to pursue so much of an academic focus but to test them in terms of the challenges but also to— And I think if it was working properly and we did have employers engaged in this and supporting schools and colleges to deliver it they would actually be learning a lot more directly from industry And some children some pupils some young people they respond far far better to that And I think that is the issue for me—that we have not really sold this to employers to actually engage with them All of my understanding of this is literally as a parent and that would be true of a lot of employers as well So perhaps there are differences across the sector but I think certainly for my sector we would really value the growth of the Welsh baccalaureate","They all agreed that most employers did not have a clear understanding of what Welsh bac means or what it includes, which was a big problem not only for employers, but also for parents and young people. Though some small engaged employers did understand it, the vast majority focused more on running the business without a clear understanding."
"Sian Gwenllian AM: And finally I know you have got strong views as an organisation 
Ed Evans: Do you mind if I carry on in English— —just so that a lot of our members will understand when I am speaking I think it is fair to say employers do not understand it that is for sure but I think if they did they would really appreciate this For my sector in particular—the civil engineering sector—and particularly the contracting sector which depends very much on pupils who have come through from a less academic background the Welsh bac gives them that ability I guess not to pursue so much of an academic focus but to test them in terms of the challenges but also to— And I think if it was working properly and we did have employers engaged in this and supporting schools and colleges to deliver it they would actually be learning a lot more directly from industry And some children some pupils some young people they respond far far better to that And I think that is the issue for me—that we have not really sold this to employers to actually engage with them All of my understanding of this is literally as a parent and that would be true of a lot of employers as well So perhaps there are differences across the sector but I think certainly for my sector we would really value the growth of the Welsh baccalaureate","Ed Evans thought employers did not understand it, but they would appreciate it if they do. This was particularly true for his own sector, the civil engineering sector, and particularly contracting sector. Because pupils usually did not have a very strong academic background in this sector, and Welsh bac gave them the opportunity to not pursue that much of academic, but tested them in terms of the challenges. Therefore, the growth of the Welsh bac would be valued at least for this sector."
"Dafydd Evans: I think we need to review the qualification and I think the voice of employers should be a key part of that review so that employability skills and entrepreneurial skills have more of a role within that qualification And I think that rather than it being done by the colleges or by a qualifications board I think the employers— And the only way we will get employer buyin is that if they feel ownership of what is being done Because I think that is what the vision was for the Welsh baccalaureate—that it was going to improve skills for employment But somehow or other we have lost our way The aim is an excellent one but I think we have lost our way in terms of what we do present at the end of the day and I think having more input from employers would be a great help 
Ed Evans: I will carry on in English if that is 
Sian Gwenllian AM: Yes it is no problem 
Ed Evans: I would agree I think we do need more employers involved in this I think there are opportunities to join up employers and schools and education facilities a lot more than we do at the moment I suppose that the bee in my bonnet is that we are involved in lots of social valuetype contracts in this sector and that to me is a perfect opportunity to tie in employers into schools and colleges and get that time and input from them into schools in a far more coordinated way It happens at the moment It is the community benefits clauses that are in construction contracts They are there to serve a really good purpose but it is become a little bit piecemeal and a little bit tokenistic whereas the Welsh bac offers an opportunity— It is something that is part of the curriculum It is clearly not functioning well at the moment It would benefit from that business input So why not link up those contractual clauses which tie in employers and feed it directly into schools so that we have a far more structured way of getting employers into schools ? At the moment it is a little bit—we will pick up the phone we will get a phone call and it will be Can you come and do something for us ? It is tokenistic We need to be far more clever in terms of how we join these things up and then I think you will start to get that business input there but let us not be ad hoc about it 
Kay Martin: Could I just add something ? We have also got several other programmes that are engaging employers really well Career Ready is a national programme which we use in the college and which other colleges across the UK use That is where employers mentor students so everyone has a mentor for the whole of the two years of the programme from employment and they all go out for at least six weeks internship So they do not go for a days work placement or two days—they go for sixweek internships Some learners have got real benefit from that and really raised their aspirations We have got BTEC learners who have gone through that programme and gone into law degrees with Freshfields law in London which is one of the top law firms in the world So there are lots of other programmes as well and perhaps there is a way of joining it all up together But in the college we have got several different programmes going on with employers and the Welsh bac is one of them but it is not the one that engages employers the best certainly in our college","They proposed that the voice of employers should be a key part of reviewing the qualification. Instead of colleges or qualifications boards doing this, employers themselves should do this qualification, which accorded to the vision of the Welsh baccalaureate, to improve skills for employment. They really should join employers and schools and education facilities together more in the future."
"Janet Finch-Saunders AM: Thank you Good morning What are your views on how well the Welsh bac at all levels helps to prepare learners for employment ? We have spoken to quite a few learners and again we have had variable opinions coming back so it is quite how they from their perspective— 
Dafydd Evans: I think that one of the problems is that there are a number of priorities And one of the problems that we have is that we have a number of children coming in to the colleges and they need to resit their GCSEs—in maths English and Welsh It is a valid priority for the Welsh Government for everyone to get a C grade in the core subjects But that eats into the time that we have to teach young people And so there is no room for everything in the curriculum somehow—no room in the funding or also in terms of the time and the capacity of the learner to be able to do that number of qualifications So the priorities I think across the sector— We have given priority to GCSE resits rather than doing the Welsh bac at present So at levels 1 and 2 there are fewer and fewer doing 1 and 2 in the baccalaureate because they are resitting their GCSEs and there is much more use of the Welsh bac at level 3 and Alevel and vocational level 3 
Nick Brazil: Can I just add to that ? I think again there is a misconception The Welsh bac is a combination of qualifications it is not just one qualification—it is a combination So to develop the employability skills obviously is a key part and developing the skills for employment is a key part But when you are focused if you are a learner on developing or achieving certain qualifications to make up the Welsh bac—for example resits your main qualification plus your work for the Welsh bac which is the skills challenge certificate as well—that is a huge amount of work And obviously when you are trying to achieve outcomes—and we all get funded on the outcomes—that becomes the priority and sometimes then we lose the focus on the skills which are ultimately what were supposed to be part of the development for employability So I think people lose the fact that the Welsh bac is a combination of things And I think it was interesting the comment that was made about the Duke of Edinburgh—I thought that is something that we need to think about 
Kay Martin: If I could just say as well our job in the college is to develop skills and employable people and we use every tool in our box to do that And as I said earlier there are lots of things that we do The Welsh bac where it works really well does help prepare them I think for employment but it is not for everyone because some people have to do the other things Some people doing the equivalent of three Alevels even in a vocational programme it is too big for them As you say they are coming from schools some of them with very few GCSEs or they have not got literacy and numeracy skills they are being tested and many of them are below level 1 in terms of literacy and numeracy So I think it needs to be reviewed to look at how we could make skilled and employable people It helps prepare some people—the Alevel students for university—but does it help my health and social care people become more skilled and employable ? No it does not","One thing needing to be cleared was that Welsh bac was a combination of qualifications, but not just one qualification. To develop the employability skills was obviously a key part of it, but not all of it. It obviously worked well to help prepare for employment, but was not for everyone, because some people had to do the other things. It helped prepare some people, such as the A level students for university, but did not help health and social care people become more skilled and employable."
Kay Martin: If I could just say as well our job in the college is to develop skills and employable people and we use every tool in our box to do that And as I said earlier there are lots of things that we do The Welsh bac where it works really well does help prepare them I think for employment but it is not for everyone because some people have to do the other things Some people doing the equivalent of three Alevels even in a vocational programme it is too big for them As you say they are coming from schools some of them with very few GCSEs or they have not got literacy and numeracy skills they are being tested and many of them are below level 1 in terms of literacy and numeracy So I think it needs to be reviewed to look at how we could make skilled and employable people It helps prepare some people—the Alevel students for university—but does it help my health and social care people become more skilled and employable ? No it does not,"Kay Martin agreed with other people's opinion. They tried their best to help learners to develop skills and employable people. Welsh bac worked well for preparing employment for some people, but not for everybody. Because some people came to school with very few GCSAs, or were lacking literacy or numeracy skills. Kay Martin thought this needed to be reviewed, to look at how they could actually make skilled and employable people."
"Dafydd Evans: I think that one of the problems is that there are a number of priorities And one of the problems that we have is that we have a number of children coming in to the colleges and they need to resit their GCSEs—in maths English and Welsh It is a valid priority for the Welsh Government for everyone to get a C grade in the core subjects But that eats into the time that we have to teach young people And so there is no room for everything in the curriculum somehow—no room in the funding or also in terms of the time and the capacity of the learner to be able to do that number of qualifications So the priorities I think across the sector— We have given priority to GCSE resits rather than doing the Welsh bac at present So at levels 1 and 2 there are fewer and fewer doing 1 and 2 in the baccalaureate because they are resitting their GCSEs and there is much more use of the Welsh bac at level 3 and Alevel and vocational level 3 
Nick Brazil: Can I just add to that ? I think again there is a misconception The Welsh bac is a combination of qualifications it is not just one qualification—it is a combination So to develop the employability skills obviously is a key part and developing the skills for employment is a key part But when you are focused if you are a learner on developing or achieving certain qualifications to make up the Welsh bac—for example resits your main qualification plus your work for the Welsh bac which is the skills challenge certificate as well—that is a huge amount of work And obviously when you are trying to achieve outcomes—and we all get funded on the outcomes—that becomes the priority and sometimes then we lose the focus on the skills which are ultimately what were supposed to be part of the development for employability So I think people lose the fact that the Welsh bac is a combination of things And I think it was interesting the comment that was made about the Duke of Edinburgh—I thought that is something that we need to think about","Dafydd Evans though that one of the problems was that there were a number of priorities. For example, there were a number of students who needed to resit their GCSE. It was important for everybody to get a C grade in those core subjects, but that would take some time from them teaching young people. Therefore, there were fewer and fewer doing level 1 and 2 in the baccalaureate because they were resitting their GCSEs. Nick Brazil added that Welsh bac was a combination of qualifications, and developing the employment was one of the key parts, but not all of it."
"Janet Finch-Saunders AM: A question then just to ColegauCymru : to what extent do you believe that universities in the main understand the value of the Welsh bac ? 
Kay Martin: Well we do not think they do really especially the experience we have with some of our learners to go to Russell Group universities They do allow sometimes that you can drop a grade I talked earlier about my own daughter who was allowed to drop a grade in order to get into a Russell Group university because she had the Welsh bac as well but it was a very paperbased exercise But I think it is mixed and it does depend on the admissions tutors and the areas that they are going into in universities In some areas and certainly the local universities around here—University of South Wales Cardiff Metropolitan University—value it in a great number of subjects particularly in sport when our students go to Cardiff Met and business studies when our learners go to USW It is valued by them and they accept it but when people go further afield—and we are always trying to push our learners beyond Where they can afford to go away to university we encourage that But some of the universities are not valuing the Welsh baccalaureate 
Lynne Neagle AM: Did you have a supplementary Siân ? 
Sian Gwenllian AM: Yes You did not mention Cardiff University there 
Kay Martin: Cardiff University—yes My daughters example—that was Cardiff University So they do especially now it is graded at level 3 Then they do accept it A great number of our learners get into Cardiff using the Welsh baccalaureate but would their admissions tutors prefer four Alevels ? Absolutely 
Nick Brazil: Could I jump in there ? I have got to jump in there as from the institution I am in we have had a long track record of getting learners into top universities About 20 per cent of our learners go to Russell Group universities and there is no doubt—in certainly 50 per cent of those they do not value the Welsh bac But if they do offer an option with the Welsh bac they say it is on top of three A2level grades So obviously we have had that track record I think the Seren programme that is been put in by the Welsh Government is looking to increase the numbers applying to top universities and top courses but you look through the range particularly in science technology engineering and mathematics subjects as well across a number and range of universities the Welsh bac is always added as the additional one So bear in mind then that Welsh students are fighting for places against Scottish Northern Irish and potentially English students who are studying three subjects whereas our Welsh students potentially could be doing three A2s three Alevel subjects plus the Welsh bac And as we talked about earlier on the Welsh bac has evolved into quite a rigorous you could say complicated qualification which puts added pressure on a learner in year 2 when they are trying to get possibly three A grades So I think we need to consider that In relation to the first answer it is variable and the admissions tutors throughout a lot of universities will make different decisions and also make the decision dependent on whether it is a facilitating subject or an enabling subject which the Russell Group report indicates about facilitating subjects and Welsh bac at the moment is not a facilitating subject 
Sian Gwenllian AM: Maybe Dafydd can give us the picture from north Wales 
Dafydd Evans: I mentioned before coming in in terms of the context— Because of the nature of our catchment area there is a greater percentage of our students staying in Welsh universities and as Kay said Welsh universities are much more willing to recognise the bac So to a certain extent it is less of a problem But naturally we do have students who are looking to go out to universities in England in the Russell Group and we are having the same experience there where there are differences between the policy that that university extols and what actually happens on the ground when students have interviews in those universities 
Sian Gwenllian AM: But in terms of Bangor and Glyndŵr University there is no problem there though 
Dafydd Evans: No there is no problem there 
Lynne Neagle AM: Thank you Right the next questions are from Julie Morgan","They thought most universities did not understand, based on some experience they had with some of their learners that went to Russell Group universities. But this depended on the admission tutors and the areas that they were going. Some areas valued it more, but some others did not."
Nick Brazil: Could I jump in there ? I have got to jump in there as from the institution I am in we have had a long track record of getting learners into top universities About 20 per cent of our learners go to Russell Group universities and there is no doubt—in certainly 50 per cent of those they do not value the Welsh bac But if they do offer an option with the Welsh bac they say it is on top of three A2level grades So obviously we have had that track record I think the Seren programme that is been put in by the Welsh Government is looking to increase the numbers applying to top universities and top courses but you look through the range particularly in science technology engineering and mathematics subjects as well across a number and range of universities the Welsh bac is always added as the additional one So bear in mind then that Welsh students are fighting for places against Scottish Northern Irish and potentially English students who are studying three subjects whereas our Welsh students potentially could be doing three A2s three Alevel subjects plus the Welsh bac And as we talked about earlier on the Welsh bac has evolved into quite a rigorous you could say complicated qualification which puts added pressure on a learner in year 2 when they are trying to get possibly three A grades So I think we need to consider that In relation to the first answer it is variable and the admissions tutors throughout a lot of universities will make different decisions and also make the decision dependent on whether it is a facilitating subject or an enabling subject which the Russell Group report indicates about facilitating subjects and Welsh bac at the moment is not a facilitating subject,"Nick Brazil proposed an example of the institution himself was in. They had a long track record of getting learners into top universities. 50 percent of those Russell Group universities did not value Welsh bac for sure. But there were some offering an option with the Welsh bac, and those said it was on top of three A2 level grades."
"Sian Gwenllian AM: Maybe Dafydd can give us the picture from north Wales 
Dafydd Evans: I mentioned before coming in in terms of the context— Because of the nature of our catchment area there is a greater percentage of our students staying in Welsh universities and as Kay said Welsh universities are much more willing to recognise the bac So to a certain extent it is less of a problem But naturally we do have students who are looking to go out to universities in England in the Russell Group and we are having the same experience there where there are differences between the policy that that university extols and what actually happens on the ground when students have interviews in those universities 
Sian Gwenllian AM: But in terms of Bangor and Glyndŵr University there is no problem there though 
Dafydd Evans: No there is no problem there 
Lynne Neagle AM: Thank you Right the next questions are from Julie Morgan","Welsh universities were much more willing to recognize the bac. Therefore, it was not a huge problem there. However, students who were looking to go out to universities in England encountered some problems. But in terms of Bangor and Glyndŵr University, there was no problem."
"Dawn Bowden AM: Thank you Chair A lot of this has been covered actually but just on those final points there I am wondering whether you think that introducing a specialist teachertraining qualification to deliver the Welsh bac would actually help in some way in improving its status and perception and so on What do you think about that ? 
Dafydd Evans: I am not assured in terms of—yes training is required regarding the Welsh bac but where we are seeing it more successfully is where vocational lecturers have actually taken it on board When we were bringing lecturers from outside—Welsh bac specialists in inverted commas—it was not working well It has started to work well when our sports lecturers have taken the Welsh bac on board and have put it in the context of the sports curriculum Therefore no I think that if it is going to be a success it is got to be contextualised and for the vocational lecturers to do that and we have invested heavily in training those vocational lecturers to understand how to deliver the Welsh bac and get positive outcomes of the Welsh bac— It is been an intensive staff development process 
Nick Brazil: And I think you have got to bear in mind that the number of the skills and the number of challenges that are done within the Welsh bac are done very similarly within the vocational qualification as well So a number of those staff have already got those skills and they are undertaking that I suppose when it comes to the word credibility used in terms of the qualification yes I am sure it would raise that focus on it but ultimately it is taking away from the fact that we have got staff who have got those skills and they are developing them within other elements of the vocational qualifications they are doing Something we were talking about earlier on is the fact is that sometimes that work is being repeated twice because of the nature of the qualification 
Dawn Bowden AM: And have you got dedicated time ? Because one of the things we picked up from schools was that teachers in particular were kind of fitting it in with other lessons and therefore it was not being again given the same perceived level of importance as doing Alevels were But your lecturers would all have dedicated time to deliver— 
Kay Martin: On their timetables yes And as you say industry specialists delivering some of those things put them more into context 
Ed Evans: I was just going to add there really if you want to raise the profile amongst parents in particular if you have got that far clearer link between businesses coming in to deliver this— Apologies I would almost forgotten that we were in the Colegau thing I was thinking schools actually Laughter But in terms of bringing those businesses into schools in a structured way not an adhoc way which is just a friend turning up to talk about something a structured way— We have a programme under way at the moment called contextualising the curriculum in the sector that we hope to roll out Now if that was rolled out across the board—I am not saying that it makes it easier for teachers in particular but they are going to struggle to deliver some of these commercial and worldskilled global areas because it is not their bag So bring in some experts bring in some business raise the profile and I think then possibly you will start to get parents thinking Actually there is something more to this than just the academic bit 
Dawn Bowden AM: I think all my other points have been answered Chair Thank you","They thought that a lot of skills and challenges that were done within the Welsh bac were very similar with the vocational qualification. Therefore, a number of those staff had already got those skills. Besides, for the vocational lecturers to do that, they had invested heavily in training those vocational lecturers to understand how to deliver the Welsh bac and got positive outcomes of the Welsh bac, which had been an intensive staff development process."
"Dawn Bowden AM: Thank you Chair A lot of this has been covered actually but just on those final points there I am wondering whether you think that introducing a specialist teachertraining qualification to deliver the Welsh bac would actually help in some way in improving its status and perception and so on What do you think about that ? 
Dafydd Evans: I am not assured in terms of—yes training is required regarding the Welsh bac but where we are seeing it more successfully is where vocational lecturers have actually taken it on board When we were bringing lecturers from outside—Welsh bac specialists in inverted commas—it was not working well It has started to work well when our sports lecturers have taken the Welsh bac on board and have put it in the context of the sports curriculum Therefore no I think that if it is going to be a success it is got to be contextualised and for the vocational lecturers to do that and we have invested heavily in training those vocational lecturers to understand how to deliver the Welsh bac and get positive outcomes of the Welsh bac— It is been an intensive staff development process","Dafydd Evans thought that if it were going to be a success, it would be contextualised. For the vocational lecturers to do that, they had to invest heavily in training those vocational lecturers to understand how to deliver the Welsh bac and get positive outcomes of the Welsh bac. And this had been an intensive staff development process."
Nick Brazil: And I think you have got to bear in mind that the number of the skills and the number of challenges that are done within the Welsh bac are done very similarly within the vocational qualification as well So a number of those staff have already got those skills and they are undertaking that I suppose when it comes to the word credibility used in terms of the qualification yes I am sure it would raise that focus on it but ultimately it is taking away from the fact that we have got staff who have got those skills and they are developing them within other elements of the vocational qualifications they are doing Something we were talking about earlier on is the fact is that sometimes that work is being repeated twice because of the nature of the qualification,"Nick Brazil thought the number of the skills and the number of challenges that were done within the Welsh bac were done very similarly within the vocational qualification. Therefore, a number of those staff had already got those skills and they had undertaken that."
Kirsty Williams AM: The original proposal that we began working on was in the legislation to provide for the four purposes—so the four purposes would be set out in the legislation—as well as putting in law the areas of learning and experience that you will all be familiar with Then below that we were going to legislate for a number of the crosscurricular aspects—so the literacy the numeracy and the digital competency—as well as some elements where we had already said that we were going to make that statutory so for instance above and beyond what Graham Donaldson would have put in his original reports A good example of that is relationships and sexuality education I have already made an announcement that I was going to put RSE on the face of the Bill So the two main new areas that we are now working on to include within the Bill are to ensure that there is breadth within the curriculum for everybody— So we will make a statutory provision for the what matters statements So we are bringing it a step lower again Rather than simply in law leaving it at the AoLE level we will be bringing it down again to the what matters statements within that again providing greater certainty and greater clarity about our expectations at a national level We will also be looking to include in the legislation provision for a statutory framework setting out our approach to progression in each of the AoLE areas So there has been in the Chamber—I can see Suzy is writing this down—Suzy has asked me questions about How do you create a national expectation around progression ? We have reflected on that and our conversations with other people outside during this process so we would look to have a statutory framework where our expectations of progression at a national level would be laid out As I said we are proposing those changes because of responses that we have had One of the consistent worries that some people have had whilst being very supportive of the overall aims is how do you get that balance between individual autonomy in the school but also ensure that there is some national expectation and that the variation on these important things is not so great as to cause concern So we have reflected on that I set up a process—this was an open process and we were open to listening to people So I think those will be the two main areas where we had not originally thought that we would legislate for but that we will now legislate for,"Kirsty Williams AM introduced that first of all, the four purposes would be set out in the legislation—as well as putting in learning and experience. Second, the government also intended to legislate for a number of the cross-curricular aspects like literacy, the numeracy and the digital competency. Third, a statutory provision for the 'what matters' statements would also be included."
"Sian Gwenllian AM: So will you be adding to those ? 
Kirsty Williams AM: Adding is not necessarily—no not adding But for instance the children have given us some interesting feedback about what they feel really matters in those areas of learning and experience So they will be refined but not added to and then we will legislate for them and that had not been the original intention 
Sian Gwenllian AM: Will they include mental health and wellbeing ? 
Kirsty Williams AM: Well the area of learning and experience for wellbeing is already there and underneath that area of learning title there are the broad concepts of what matters what we believe matters in that area of learning and it is that that we will now actually put into the legislation Sorry I am not helping because I have not got them with me either to read them out 
Lynne Neagle AM: They are in the annex to the paper Siân and obviously mental health is in there So just to clarify then that would mean that every school would have to teach mental health by law 
Kirsty Williams AM: Yes because the what matters states very clearly the broad concepts in health and wellbeing It refers to both physical and mental health and we intend to legislate to ensure that the what matters statements are a set given in the system","Kirsty Williams AM explained that the area of learning and experience for well-being was already there, and what would be included was the things that matter in the area of learning, and it was going to be put into the legislation. Lynne Neagle AM added that every school would have to teach mental health by law since the 'what matters' referred to both physical and mental health, and the government intended to legislate to ensure that the 'what matters' statements were a set given in the system."
"Claire Bennett: Yes the what matters are the articulation of the big ideas These are the essence of the core content So the idea is to make sure that those are consistent and then that still leaves huge flexibility underneath as to how to approach those which particular topics to select in how to actually teach them But the concept that you might not do one what matters—it was never what was intended They were always intended to represent as a whole the learning that every learner should get They will not be literally in the Bill because obviously you might want to change the emphasis so that will be provided for in subordinate legislation but the provision will be there and they will have the status of something that is not optional basically for a school 
Sian Gwenllian AM: Therefore it is not going to be on the face of the Bill—the mental health aspect for example And there are other matters that we have raised here This is what I am not clear about You are saying that it is subordinate but then you are saying— 
Kirsty Williams AM: So on the face of the Bill we will make provision to say that the what matters statements have to be delivered Over time the what matters statements might change So the actual wording of the what matters statements will be in secondary legislation the need to deliver and the requirement the legal requirement to deliver the what matters statement will be on the face of the Bill So for instance education is changing all the time If I think if we had sat here 20 years ago we probably in a what matters statement on health and wellbeing would not have referred to mental health 20 years ago because our understanding as a society our willingness as a society to engage in that— So if we had drawn up a what matters statement even a decade ago I suspect we would not have talked about mental health So the concept of having to deliver the what matters statement will be in the primary legislation the actual wording because otherwise if you wanted to change it you would have to go through the entire process— So the wording of the what matters statement will be in secondary legislation The actual need and the compulsion the expectation that you have to do that will be on the face of the Bill","The 'what matters' was the articulation of the big ideas and it was to make sure that essence of the core content was consistent. The actual wording of the 'what matters' statements would be in the secondary legislation. At that time, the need to deliver and the legal requirement to deliver the 'what matters' statement would be on the face of the Bill. As a result, mental health would be put in an important place."
"Hefin David AM: Can I ask what value you place on the work done by the Wales Institute of Social and Economic Research Data and Methods and the presentation so far and the paper to be presented by Dr Nigel Newton ? 
Kirsty Williams AM: I always—and Welsh Government are big supporters of WISERD and the work that they do and in fact we need more research into Welsh education not less Therefore I find their papers really helpful and help us to inform our work I think what is really important in perhaps this piece of work is to say that I hope that in the time where I have had an influence to influence over Welsh education either as a backbencher or now as a Minister equality and principles of equity have always driven what I have tried to achieve And I would never undertake a policy reform that I thought would lead to less equity in the Welsh education system Closing the attainment is a core element of the national mission for education in Wales and we would not proceed with anything that we thought could lead to an exacerbation of an achievement 
Hefin David AM: And how do you respond then— ? I mean it is a balanced paper it looks at pros and cons and there is a mixed picture from it How do you respond to the specific statement that Dr Nigel Newton said that the curriculum could exacerbate segregation within schools between different groups of pupils ? 
Kirsty Williams AM: Well I think what the paper acknowledges is that there is no evidence that that will happen These are coulds and maybes and things that we need as a Government to take into consideration as we plan this journey There can not be any empirical research done at the moment because the curriculum is not being delivered but I understand and we need listen to— If there are concerns out there in the field that these are unintended consequences that we may fall into—that is the value of that piece of research that helps inform us I have to say though the curriculum in itself is neither going to necessarily on its own hugely enhance equity nor detract from equity in the sense that the curriculum is what is taught in our schools There is an opportunity I believe that empowering teachers to be able to be more flexible in what they teach their children actually gives us an opportunity to deliver lessons that could be much more engaging and much more relevant to some of our schoolchildren than what they have at the moment What will make the curriculum a success for all of our children and I believe will have a bigger impact on children who are in danger of being left behind are the four enabling purposes of the curriculum So the curriculum on its own can play a part but it will only be as good as the four enabling elements that surround it And that is strong leadership of our schools that ensures that there is no segregation that has high expectation of all of our children and delivers a curriculum within that setting that meets the needs of the children there Secondly : excellent teaching In the end no education system whatever its curriculum can exceed the quality of the people who stand in front of our children day in day out So the curriculum can be the most exciting wonderful—and I think it is exciting and I think it is wonderful—it can be the most exciting wonderful thing in the world but if teachers can not teach it effectively if their pedagogy is not excellent then the content itself—it will not work Then we have got issues around assessment and accountability So how do you assess how children are doing in your new curriculum ? How do you understand how that pupil who has you know—who could be vulnerable for a whole host of reasons usually reasons outside of the school— ? That pupil is vulnerable How can you assess how that pupil is and move their learning along in an appropriate fashion ? And then finally the wellbeing of the child People sometimes say Oh you are going soft—typical going soft But what we know is that we can not expect children to learn unless we address issues around their wellbeing But we also know that poor achievement is also detrimental to a childs wellbeing There is been lots and lots of research done not in a Welsh context but in other systems where children are kept behind for a year That has a massive impact on their wellbeing So good achievement leads to good wellbeing but good wellbeing also leads to good achievement and you can not separate the two So the curriculum on its own will not be enough It is the four enabling objectives that sit around it and we have to be cognisant of the WISERDs research of course we do to ensure that as we are doing our professional learning as we are planning wellbeing for our children as we think about assessment methods and how we develop a culture of strong leaders in our schools—and we have some we have many but we need to do more to support them—it is that that will make the biggest difference not just the content of the curriculum on its own Although I do believe the flexibility that we are allowing people will I think lead to a curriculum and more meaningful lessons for some children in schools who are in danger of disengaging because they do not understand why they are being asked to learn what they are learning they do not see the relevance of what they are learning to what they may want to do or how their lives are or they do not see themselves reflected So for some of our communities they do not see themselves reflected in the curriculum that we are teaching at the moment And again international research would suggest that if you want a child to thrive they have to see themselves and their community reflected in what they are learning in schools","Kirsty Williams AM suggested that Welsh Government had always been big supporters of WISERD (WalesInstitute of Social and Economic Research, Data and Methods). More research into Welsh education would always be needed. As a Government, all aspects of concerns of Welsh education should be taken into consideration as the government was planning the new curriculum. For instance,  empowering teachers to be able to be more flexible in what they teached their children actually gave the government an opportunity to deliver lessons that could be much more engaging and much more relevant to some of the school children than what they had at the moment."
"Hefin David AM: What the WISERD research suggests is that the senior management teams—the management teams—would certainly buy into what you have just said but the classroom teachers would be a little bit more sceptical 
Kirsty Williams AM: As I said classroom teachers are absolutely crucial to this which is why first of all we have taken the difficult step to delay the implementation of the curriculum to give us the time that we need to make sure that it is not just school leaders but it is individual classroom practitioners who have the skills that they need to make the most of the opportunity that the curriculum allows them 
Hefin David AM: So if we look at some of the statements that were in the presentation by WISERD at the seminar two comments jump out : We will end up—this is from classroom teachers— We will end up with a different accountability framework to the aims and objectives of the new curriculum and there will be no consistency And consistency is the one I would particularly like to focus on : there will be no consistency across all schools in how the new curriculum is delivered which could affect outcomes 
Kirsty Williams AM: Well first of all we have just talked have not we about trying to ensure that there is greater consistency and that is why we are changing our approach to the legislation around the Bill So in terms of progression steps there will be a statutory framework to ensure that progression is the same wherever you are in Wales So as I said we are using this report we are using this feedback to inform decisions going forward In terms of— Read the first bit again Was it—Interruption Accountability yes 
Hefin David AM: Yes : different accountability framework to the aims and objectives of the new curriculum 
Kirsty Williams AM: So as always in education teachers—understandably because this is the regime that they have been a part of—immediately do not think about their pedagogy they think about How are judgments going to be made upon me as an individual ? And what we are trying to do is ensure that we are developing another accountability regime that is indeed in line with the purposes of the curriculum and does not work against the purposes of the curriculum So I understand why teachers are concerned They spend a lot of time thinking about accountability and how they are going to be held accountable for their practice but again what we want to do is provide reassurance that we are devising an accountability regime for our system that is in line with the purposes of the curriculum and puts us in line with the mainstream thought and reform process across the world of progressive education systems","Hefin David AM introduced that the WISERD research suggested that the senior management teams and classroom teachers would share different views towards the change since classroom teachers would be more sceptical. Kirsty Williams AM explained that classroom teachers were absolutely crucial to this, as a result, difficult step had been taken to delay the implementation of the curriculum to same some amount of time to make sure that it was not just school leaders but individual classroom practitioners who had the skills that they would need to make the most of the opportunity that the curriculum allowed them. To ensure this process, different accountability frameworks to the aims and objectives of the new curriculum would be incorporated."
"Hefin David AM: And the final question : there is a process a model for this which is Scotland What kind of lessons are being learned from the introduction of their curriculum ? 
Kirsty Williams AM: So I think the first thing to realise is that our curriculum is not a copycat of the Scottish curriculum but it is always useful to reflect on how other systems have undertaken curriculum reform in their nation and to learn from any issues that have arisen So I think it is fair to say—and I spent time with some delegates from Scotland just this weekend at the Atlantic Rim Collaboratory conference that Wales hosted this year Unfortunately Minister Swinney was not able to attend at the very last minute because of Brexit preparedness work that he was involved in but certainly their teaching union and their equivalent of the EWC in Scotland joined us as well as representatives from the Scottish Government although not John himself and they were very frank about some of the challenges that they had faced in introducing their curriculum Part of that is about assessment and they had not really thought— They spent all their time thinking about content and spent no time at all thinking about assessment Assessment has been a crucial part of the process that we have been involved in Professional learning ensuring that the profession was properly prepared for the changes I think they would agree that that was not necessarily— The middle tier which they do not have to the— Well they have got local authorities and regions but whether they were truly engaged in what they were doing So I think we have learned— Although our curriculum is not a copycat as I said we have been able to learn from and we have had people who have been deeply involved in the Scottish experience as part of some of our curriculum and assessment groups and some of the advice that we have had in terms of developing coherence But Steve I do not know if— You speak to your Scottish colleagues quite a lot 
Steve Davies: As I said they are very forthright in sharing their learning and I think one of the critical elements was the extent to which assessment was considered at the outset alongside the curriculum content So that was critical but we have embraced experts who were involved in that process who were part of our curriculum assessment group So they feed in throughout—not do not do this because Scotland has done it but they feed some of that learning into the system As the Minister said we had seven other countries from across the world giving us feedback and input over four days as to where we can continue to look at what we are doing but also checks and balances against some of their experiences with this area of reform","Hefin David AM asked about what lessons could be learned from the introduction of the Scotish curriculum. Kirsty Williams AM explained some of the challenges that they had faced in introducing their curriculum, including assessment and content, which had been a crucial part of the process. Also, professional learning, ensuring that the profession was properly prepared for the changes was an alert to the Welsh government. Steve Davies added that one of the critical elements was the extent to which assessment was considered at the outset alongside the curriculum content and it could be a fit for the new curriculum."
"Dawn Bowden AM: Thank you Chair Yes just around preparations for the implementation really You touched on this briefly in response to some questions from Hefin David earlier on but I am just interested to know how the money that you announced for supporting teachers for the preparation of the implementation how that is actually been used What specifically have teachers been doing to prepare for its implementation ? I know you have set aside about £24 million over two years So it is not an insignificant amount I just wondered how that was being utilised 
Kirsty Williams AM: You are right first of all it is not an insignificant amount it is the largest investment in professional learning since the history of devolution So you are right that it is not insignificant and it was a hardwon resource I can tell you from my colleagues Because as I said earlier the curriculum itself can be amazing but if our teachers and our professionals are not equipped to deliver it then all this change will be for nothing So investing in the profession is absolutely crucial That money is being made available to each and every school and has empowered headteachers to really think What are the professional needs of my school and the practitioners in my school ? Because as we have just heard from Claire there are some schools that have been part of the pioneer process from the very beginning and therefore are further along that development chain There are other schools that maybe are only beginning now now that it is published to be really engaging with the curriculum 
Dawn Bowden AM: So there has not been a national programme as such 
Kirsty Williams AM: There is a national element to it but we have given the money to individual schools and individual headteachers because I have no way of knowing how each individual practitioner is ready or how much additional support they are going to need There is no way I can know that The people who do know that are the headteachers that are running our schools But we have worked with the National Academy for Educational Leadership to put together a programme for headteachers and that is national The four regional consortia are working together to have a national approach for the first level of engagement So actually the beginning of their discussion is about how you would implement a curriculum The next stages will be much more focused on individual AoLE and areaspecific professional learning So there is a national approach in terms of leadership The regional consortia are working together to provide consistency for classroom teachers and teaching assistants and then the next stage of that development is for subject specifics Claire referred to the AoLE networks and there is an opportunity then for people to engage in that It is also important to say that that is not the end of the process So this September is the start of our new ITE courses taught for the first time and that is great I am concerned about what happens to people when they come out of ITE So we are looking at developing potentially a stronger set of support again on a national basis for those who are newly qualified beginning their teaching career because I do not think we have done that on a consistently good level across the country We are also working with the regions to revisit and improve their coaching and mentoring schemes that they have across the system We are also involved in—and I am sure the committee has heard about it so forgive me if I am going over old ground—schools as learning organisations and the OECD work to support schools to develop that culture as a learning organisation We know from very successful education systems in other parts of the world there is a strong strong culture of selfevaluation as a first step in their school improvement system and we have not been very good at that in Wales we have not been strong at that that is not the culture that we have had We have kind of depended on a culture where a school does its thing and then somebody comes along and tells you whether you are good or bad rather than the school really thinking itself deeply about What are we doing well and what do we need to improve on ? So the schools as learning organisations are an important part again so that money is being used for schools participating in that programme with support from the OECD","To answer Dawn Bowden AM's question, Kirsty Williams AM first indicated that the money was not an insignificant amount but the largest investment in professional learning since the history of devolution. The money was being made available to each and every school and had empowered head teachers to think about the professional needs of the school and the practitioners in the school. Also it was aimed at a national level, but to start with, schools would be assessed individually."
"Dawn Bowden AM: And the money that you announced for this professional development preparation if you like was for two years So there is going to clearly be an ongoing programme of preparation development and personal development as well as anything else But is there likely to be any more money allocated specifically beyond the two years that you have already allocated or is that going to be a question and negotiation with your colleagues ? Or do you see what you have put in as being This is what we need to develop or to prepare for the implementation The rest would be what would be normal professional development beyond that ? 
Kirsty Williams AM: The money that was agreed was for a twoyear period and clearly I continue to have conversations with the Minister for Finance and the First Minister around future allocations for professional learning and I am sure this committee and indeed members of this committee could help me in that task","The money that was agreed was for a two-year period and continuously, cooperation with the Minister for Finance and the First Minister around future allocations for professional learning would be included to campaign for more money allocated specifically beyond the two years."
"Kirsty Williams AM: So all of our schools that had previously been pioneers were invited to apply to morph into the next phase which is innovation schools and they were asked to apply and there was a discussion held both internally within Welsh Government and with the consortia about which schools were best placed to be able to do that role and to continue to work with us going forward I think one of the lessons learned and this was said in the committee was that there was an upside to having pioneer schools but there was a downside to having pioneer schools and I think at this stage of the game we need to move away from that model and to really get the message to everybody that they all had to be pioneers now—everybody had to be a pioneer—because this is coming down the track and we do not want anybody just sitting there waiting until September 2022 and saying Oh gosh I have got to do something new today Not that they would have done that but— So the move away is partly to engender within the sector the fact that we have all got to engage in this now The innovation schools have led to a very specific piece of work as we do the final refinement and their main role is working with us on these final refinements to the content but also to the assessment issues and accountability issues Steve 
Steve Davies: Yes There were 60 applicants from 170 previous pioneer schools We have had 16—four per region It was important that we engaged with the regions to get their view and we have had evaluation being carried out— 
Claire Bennett: Yes So during the first term of work we asked them to really look at the curriculum as a whole—so take the whole curriculum guidance and then think How would I apply that in the school ? Does it make sense ? Can we work with it ? What are the issues ? What are the questions that arise for us for assessment ? and each of the schools produced a report setting out their reflections on If I were putting this into practice— So it is slightly different to the feedback we have had from other people which has been more Maybe you should emphasise this or change that wording and kind of quite practical and really about how you would realise this curriculum in a school That is been drawn together into an overall report drawing out the themes by Wavehill who are a kind of research company It is been really useful and the innovation schools met as part of the workshops last week Having 16 headteachers in a room talking about how they see this curriculum and the way in which they would practically engage with it has been invaluable in just making us think even with all the practitioners that have been involved How do we make this work for schools ? given that we have got schools and headteachers really engaging in the detail of how they would use it practically So it is been invaluable and they are continuing on that work now this term to keep making sure that what we are doing is something that schools can actually realise practically 
Kirsty Williams AM: If you think of the pioneer model pioneers were looking at specific aspects of the curriculum So you might have been a pioneer school because you had particular strengths in health and wellbeing or you might have been a pioneer schools because you were particularly looking at professional learning needs to support the curriculum This is about at this stage where we have a high degree of certainty about what it is going to look like Actually how do I as a school practically implement this in the round ? and the schools were chosen because of their ability to do that But also we did need a mix of sector—secondary primary—but also linguistically to just try to make sure that this works in all the different types of schools we have got Faith schools as well are involved So just trying the practical implementation now now that we know exactly—not exactly— but we have a good idea what it is actually going to look like so How am I going to go about doing this ?","Kirsty Williams AM pointed out that all schools that had previously been pioneers were invited to apply to morph into innovation schools, as the next phase. There would be both a downside and an upside for the programme of innovation schools. At this stage, it should be better to move away from the original 's AM concluded that pioneers were looking at specific aspects of the curriculum. In this case, school with a specific aspect of strength should be encouraged to apply."
"Janet Finch-Saunders AM: Thank you How is awareness and understanding of human rights including children ’ s rights being embedded in the new curriculum ? 
Kirsty Williams AM: Childrens rights human rights—they have been key considerations throughout the design and this is currently set out in overarching guidance and we continue to work with the childrens commissioners office to map the rights of the child across each area of learning and experience And I am delighted that the childrens commissioner took the time to write to me during the feedback phase to say that they were very pleased that their initial assessment demonstrates that what we are proposing is a big step forward 
Janet Finch-Saunders AM: Thank you And how do you respond to the concerns expressed in the childrens commissioner ’ s quarterly report of July 2019 that consultation materials for young people were not released until mid June allowing just over a month for young people to engage ? And they said it was disappointing that a plan was not in place at the start of the consultation period 
Kirsty Williams AM: Well we undertook a specific programme of engagement with children and young people as I said at the beginning We had over 20 events where focus groups of young children were involved and we had a number of children who took the opportunity to feed back via different mechanisms The output of that engagement and feedback has been drawn together into a report exploring learners views about schools and learning It is a powerful contribution and I think will actually effect change especially in how the what matters statements are worded","Kirsty Williams AM explained that children's rights and human rights had been key considerations throughout the design, and this was currently set out in overarching guidance and the government continued to work with the children's commissioner's office to map the rights of the child across each area of learning and experience. And initial assessment from the children's commissioner's office had demonstrated that what was proposed in the new curriculum was a big stepforward. Also, the current existing output of that engagement and feedback had been drawn together into a report exploring learners' views about schools and learning, which was certainly a powerful contribution."
"Sian Gwenllian AM: Turning to the Welsh dimension in the new curriculum the Learned Society of Wales has said that there needs to be a directory of resources to implement that Welsh dimension Do you agree with that and will you be publishing such a resource ? 
Kirsty Williams AM: We have a separate programme of work that is looking at resources that are needed to support the curriculum It is one of the conversations I had with Qualifications Wales yesterday to try to avoid the debacle that we have had previously where we have new qualifications and the resources to support those qualifications are not available So we are already having those conversations with Qualifications Wales and there is a piece of work that is ongoing to look at what are the resources that are necessary to support the curriculum And this proposal by the Learned Society will be considered as part of that work",Sian Gwenllian AM pointed out that the Learned Society of Wales had said that there should be a directory of resources to implement that Welsh dimension. Kirsty Williams AM introduced that there was a separate programme of work that was looking at resources needed to support the curriculum and it certainly would be a must.
"Sian Gwenllian AM: And in terms of the single continuum of learning with regard to the Welsh language how are progression steps and achievement outcomes in Welshmedium schools going to work and how are they going to work in Englishmedium schools ? 
Kirsty Williams AM: Just on the Welsh dimension I think it is really important that whatever resources we have to support the Welsh dimension are really really really broad and not confined to specific areas I was in Swansea University just this week looking at some of their Technocamp work that they are doing to help us with coding and we had an amazing conversation about the Welsh contribution to the computing industry And so my expectation is that that is not taught in a history lesson—that actually when children are learning about coding they get to hear that Welsh people have been at the forefront of developing this technology So that is— When I talk about a Welsh dimension I mean right the way across the curriculum and I think that is important With regard to— The continuum for language will have to be contextualised depending on the setting where a child is being taught We have to recognise— We have to recognise that and there will be progression points on that continuum that will be there to show progression both in Welsh language and in the English language and they have to be contextualised We recognise that children learning Welsh in a Welshmedium school their progressional on that point would be more speedy and quicker and by the end of primary school they would be in a very different position than a child that was learning Welsh in an Englishmedium school Vice versa—we have had this discussion before—if a child is going into Welsh medium their progression in English perhaps from age three to seven would be very different from a child that was in an Englishmedium school although the expectation would be that by 11 they would be in the same position So we have to contextualise that learning continuum depending on the medium of tuition with the school but recognising that it is a progression It is not a start and never get any further 
Sian Gwenllian AM: With regard to the creative thinking element of PISA I take it that you are adhering to the fact that the Welsh Government is opting out of the creative thinking tests with regard to PISA 2020 I do not entirely understand that because the new curriculum does place great emphasis on creative thinking and independent thinking So why not participate in these tests ? 
Kirsty Williams AM: Because for me the key factor for making that decision and I intend to stick to it is in 2021 we will be expecting schools to be right in the middle of their preparation for the introduction of the new curriculum— 
Sian Gwenllian AM: so it is the timing So later on maybe when this is embedded— 
Kirsty Williams AM: I think there could well be a different decision at a later date but at 2021 this is not the right time to do it Can I just say ? In terms of creativity Wales is seen as an exemplar by the OECD especially our partnership with the Arts Council of Wales and creative learning through the arts 
Sian Gwenllian AM: I get that That is why I do not understand why we are not actually going for it and showing how good we are through the PISA But I understand 
Kirsty Williams AM: There could well be a different decision but for 2021 we are asking enough of people at the moment and this would be an unnecessary addition to cope with I just do not think that that should be seen as us running away from it because we are worried about a lack of creativity in our education system The very opposite is true We are seen as exemplars by the OECD and some of the work that is been going on with creative learning through the schools is now being shared internationally 
Sian Gwenllian AM: So you will think about it for the next round of PISA 
Kirsty Williams AM: Oh gosh that shows that Siân thinks that I will be here to make that decision Laughter That is very encouraging indeed Laughter 
Steve Davies: One very quick technical point Chair We have not opted out of this Countries were offered if they wished to take the invite to come into it and a number of countries across the world are yet to make their decision on this","Kirsty Williams AM suggested that it was really important that whatever resources there were to support the Welsh dimensionare in a broad level and not confined to specific areas. Regardless of the type of schools, attention to the Welsh language should always be included. However, there might be change towards this implementation this year and it was unclear whether it would be discussed by different sectors."
"Project Manager: so what we know is that we have to sell this remote control for about twenty five Euros that is And we have to make a profit of fifty million Euros so we have to use a big market in Europe The production cost are about half the price of selling price So can someone make a a calculation about how many we have to sell of these to make fifty million I do not know so we are going to have a little discussion about what experience are with a remote control the and everything so just have a look how it we think about remote controls 
Marketing: my first question was does it have to be a a universal remote control ? 
Project Manager: Oh that is a good question 
Marketing: Because we sell it lonely from the t and not with the television we sell it apart 
Project Manager: I think it is I am not I am not sure it is not mm I think 
Industrial Designer: it probably would be universal 
User Interface: And only television ? Or more devices ? 
Project Manager: I do not think you can buy a a a universal remote control for twenty five Euros so not sure but 
Industrial Designer: maybe I do not know 
Marketing: I know you can buy a re a universal control for only twenty Euros 
Project Manager: so we we just say we just say that is universal remote control perfect 
Industrial Designer: And also for the VCR and DVD player 
Project Manager: just so a lot of buttons on the remote control what what what is a remote control it is just a black thing with some buttons on it it is not nothing very special but 
User Interface: Well we can try to make it special 
Project Manager: So do you have any ideas how it has to look for for usability or user 
Marketing: Well I th I thought about making it the same style as the television we do not have the same television all the time so that is no matter if we control the VCR and the DVD player player with it it has to be clear because kids and elderly are going to use it so it is not only for the technical persons I think it must be a very good control so you can act use it from everywhere in your room the the infrared thing must be from very good quality 
Project Manager: That is right Should be a good point 
Industrial Designer: And how big should it be ? 
User Interface: It should not be too big but I do not think we can make it too small because it has to have a lot of functions so We can not make it smaller than the things we see now I think 
Project Manager: Just big enough for the buttons we have that is that is it 
User Interface: Or we have to make something like mobile phones that you can fold it opem Maybe then you can make it s smaller and uniquer 
Project Manager: But you you you you think about one you can fold open 
User Interface: where you can see more options I think 
Project Manager: that is cool Maybe for the DVD pla player or something 
User Interface: something on top just dren general things like volume and TV channels and inside things you do not use that often 
Industrial Designer: O or you could th think of an a small touch screen on the remote control 
Project Manager: Why should you use a touchscreen on a remote control ? 
Industrial Designer: maybe be it is it is 
Project Manager: There are buttons on it 
User Interface: No you can make an manual in it 
Industrial Designer: or maybe to keep it easy and small 
Project Manager: But it is not t t t too expensive to put a touchscreen on it 
Industrial Designer: like a a to have 
User Interface: I think it is much too expensive 
Marketing: but it is not reachable I think touch screen And we have to care for the strength of the remote control because remote controls are most things in the house that falls down on the ground and it get often broken 
Project Manager: So And if you have a touch screen in it it is definitely too too fragile fragile 
Marketing: and a lots lots of kids use it and touchscreen is not kids 
Project Manager: No You can put games on your remote control Whatever 
Industrial Designer: And how about the batteries ? should you put it in a recharger or a just 
Project Manager: Oh maybe that is a good idea 
Marketing: Ma maybe a home station 
Project Manager: just to put it on your television and just s recharge you never have to use any batteries 
User Interface: Maybe that is a good idea but we have to look at the price now I think 
Project Manager: how m how mu how how expensive is a normal recharger ? 
User Interface: Well how much is your standards mobile phone recharger ? 
Industrial Designer: if you buy it separately from your phone it is probably expensive but I do not know what the project projection costs are for such a thing 
Project Manager: if you th look at the market it is probably it is still the best way just to put batteries in it because maybe it is too expensive 
Marketing: but a home station is a really good idea because lots of people are lose their remote control and do not know where it is and now you can put it always at the same place Maybe it is Therefore it is a good idea but maybe it is expensive 
User Interface: Maybe use it as a separate option Sell it separately 
Marketing: You can you can buy it with it 
Industrial Designer: but I have a mouse that is also and and you just have normal batteries that you can recharge and just put it in the station or you can change your batteries 
Project Manager: The option just the option that is cool","In order to make a satisfying profit, the group had to set their price at 25 euros, which was relatively high. For fear that the higher price would lead to fewer consumers, they decided to make it a universal remote control, being able to function on different TVs. The group also planned to add a touchscreen onto the remote control and even include some games for children. What’s more, they paid some attention to the energy source, whether it should be a rechargeable one or just use normal batteries."
"Project Manager: so what we know is that we have to sell this remote control for about twenty five Euros that is And we have to make a profit of fifty million Euros so we have to use a big market in Europe The production cost are about half the price of selling price So can someone make a a calculation about how many we have to sell of these to make fifty million I do not know so we are going to have a little discussion about what experience are with a remote control the and everything so just have a look how it we think about remote controls 
Marketing: my first question was does it have to be a a universal remote control ? 
Project Manager: Oh that is a good question 
Marketing: Because we sell it lonely from the t and not with the television we sell it apart 
Project Manager: I think it is I am not I am not sure it is not mm I think 
Industrial Designer: it probably would be universal 
User Interface: And only television ? Or more devices ? 
Project Manager: I do not think you can buy a a a universal remote control for twenty five Euros so not sure but 
Industrial Designer: maybe I do not know 
Marketing: I know you can buy a re a universal control for only twenty Euros 
Project Manager: so we we just say we just say that is universal remote control perfect","When discussing the remote control, the group tried to set the price at 25 euros, which was relatively high, at least compared to the existing ones. For fear that such a high price would lose their potential consumers, the Project Manager decided to aim their product at a universal one. According to the Project Manager, only by making it a universal remote control and adding other unique characters could it attract more consumers, then eventually reaching their profit expectation."
"Industrial Designer: O or you could th think of an a small touch screen on the remote control 
Project Manager: Why should you use a touchscreen on a remote control ? 
Industrial Designer: maybe be it is it is 
Project Manager: There are buttons on it 
User Interface: No you can make an manual in it 
Industrial Designer: or maybe to keep it easy and small 
Project Manager: But it is not t t t too expensive to put a touchscreen on it 
Industrial Designer: like a a to have 
User Interface: I think it is much too expensive 
Marketing: but it is not reachable I think touch screen","When discussing adding several advanced techniques onto the remote control to make it more unique, the Industrial Design put forward to using the touchscreen. Notwithstanding the merits of the touchscreen, for instance, a touch screen would make the remote control easier and smaller, the Marketing did not agree to do so just because in that case they would be beyond the budget."
"Industrial Designer: should you put it in a recharger or a just 
Project Manager: Oh maybe that is a good idea 
Marketing: Ma maybe a home station 
Project Manager: just to put it on your television and just s recharge you never have to use any batteries 
User Interface: Maybe that is a good idea but we have to look at the price now I think 
Project Manager: how m how mu how how expensive is a normal recharger ? 
User Interface: Well how much is your standards mobile phone recharger ? 
Industrial Designer: if you buy it separately from your phone it is probably expensive but I do not know what the project projection costs are for such a thing 
Project Manager: if you th look at the market it is probably it is still the best way just to put batteries in it because maybe it is too expensive 
Marketing: but a home station is a really good idea because lots of people are lose their remote control and do not know where it is and now you can put it always at the same place Maybe it is Therefore it is a good idea but maybe it is expensive 
User Interface: Maybe use it as a separate option Sell it separately 
Marketing: You can you can buy it with it 
Industrial Designer: but I have a mouse that is also and and you just have normal batteries that you can recharge and just put it in the station or you can change your batteries","When discussing the conceptual design of the remote control, the group noticed that the energy source was also a problem worth concern. The Industrial Design proposed to make it rechargeable at first, but because of their limited budget, he had to change his idea. The Industrial Design then put forward to setting a station at home or perhaps just using normal batteries to run the remote control, both of which would be feasible."
"Marketing: I I set something on paper already size looks usable the buttons on usable places the the on off button must be on top it has to lay good in the hand 
Project Manager: Has it be has does it has to b have to be like a different form than a normal remote control 
Marketing: I do not I do not know I do not know 
User Interface: Well I think we have to look at that because well you can do the standard way but then you will not 
Marketing: You can make it very special to create our own looks but it is very hard to 
Industrial Designer: N if if we want to make it special we probably have to do a lot of testing if it really works 
User Interface: Well you can have the basic things on the same place like on off button on top and the TV channels one two three four as a block and then the volume obviously on t on top so you can see But the rest is you do not use that often so if you have a clear button with an good icon on it it should be clear as well So it does not matter what place it is on the remote control I think so you can do something unique with that 
Industrial Designer: And what we have to think about too is buttons that you use often are maybe like when you fold it open when you have it closed you can still do the th the functions 
Project Manager: just for the TV and just the normal function that is fine 
Marketing: on on top are the the basic options on top 
Industrial Designer: but i basically when I am watching TV I am just using like five buttons or so 
Marketing: and if you fold it open 
User Interface: That is what I meant 
Project Manager: maybe it is very hard to to make it fold open and to l look like it is very what is it is called ? 
Marketing: Mm If you if if you make to fold open it is or also an the strength is not s as good as a normal remote control 
Project Manager: Maybe it is hard t No that is right So maybe we have to to keep it like mm a square just normal remote control We have to close this to finish this meeting so There is some more things We have another thirty minutes so then we are going to meet again So you know what you have to what you have to do ? 
Marketing: for m for me the Marketing Expert the user requirements specification do I need to think as a user a as a a a only the looks and the 
User Interface: No what you want to do with it 
Project Manager: I think this if you you have to n know if it is for s a TV a DVD player all that things Also from a user but all these things together 
Marketing: it is also about strength and for everything 
User Interface: I also wrote down some stuff that you want on a 
Project Manager: no maybe not not that is not a f that is something for for for That is not for you Just if what is in the market what is normal what kind of buttons do you have 
User Interface: What do you want to do with your remote control what do you need on your remote control I already wrote some down some ideas There is already a document in the folder about it 
Project Manager: So see you in thirty minutes For the next time you have to put it exactly on the square so your laptop 
User Interface: It did not say that","The User Interface drew a draft for the group to get a more direct idea about the button layout. Through a brief discussion, they agreed that as long as they made the button clear enough to be recognized, it would not matter much where the exact button was. The group also thought about a remote control which was able to be folded, in order to test if it would be strong enough to stand hit."
"Marketing: I I set something on paper already size looks usable the buttons on usable places the the on off button must be on top it has to lay good in the hand 
Project Manager: Has it be has does it has to b have to be like a different form than a normal remote control 
Marketing: I do not I do not know I do not know 
User Interface: Well I think we have to look at that because well you can do the standard way but then you will not 
Marketing: You can make it very special to create our own looks but it is very hard to 
Industrial Designer: N if if we want to make it special we probably have to do a lot of testing if it really works 
User Interface: Well you can have the basic things on the same place like on off button on top and the TV channels one two three four as a block and then the volume obviously on t on top so you can see But the rest is you do not use that often so if you have a clear button with an good icon on it it should be clear as well So it does not matter what place it is on the remote control I think","When discussing the button layout, the User Interface drew a draft to show how to make the remote control more unique and attractive. He suggested to put several essential and useful buttons together in the same place, and others might be scattered on the remote control, on all of which there would be clear logos. As long as the button layout was user-friendly enough, the User Interface thought it did not really matter much where the buttons would be."
"PhD F: But basically for anything where you are trying to get a summarization of some kind of meeting comment pause meaning out of the meeting it would be too hard to have fifty different kinds of meetings where we did not really have a good grasp on what does it mean to summarize but rather we should have different meetings by the same group but hopefully that have different summaries And then we need a couple that of pause We do not want to just have one group because that might be specific to that particular group but three or four different kinds 
Grad B: we have a lot of overlap between this meeting and the morning meeting 
PhD F: See I ve never listened to the data for the front end pause meeting 
Grad B: we we ve only had three 
PhD F: OK But maybe that s enough So in general I was thinking more data but also data where we hold some parameters constant or fairly similar like a meeting about of people doing a certain kind of work where at least half the participants each time are the same 
Professor D: Now let l l let me just give you the other side to that cuz I ca because I I do not disagree with that but I think there is a complimentary piece to it too for other kinds of research particularly the acoustic oriented research I actually feel the opposite need I would like to have lots of different people As many people here a a and talking about the kind of thing that you were just talking about it would have too few people from my point of view I would like to have many different speakers So I think I would also very much like us to have a fair amount of really random scattered meetings of somebody coming down from campus and and I mean sure if we can get more from them fine but if we only get one or two from each group that still could be useful acoustically just because we would have close and distant microphones with different people 
PhD F: I definitely agree with that","PhD F wanted the group to record different meetings with the same group to help in tasks such as summarization, the Professor D however, wanted random meeting participants to have diversity that would be instrumental in acoustical research."
"Postdoc E: Can I can I say about that that the the issues that I think Adam and I raised were more a matter of advertising so that you get more native speakers Because I think if you just say an And in particular my suggestion was to advertise to linguistics grad students because there you would have so people who would have proficiency enough in English that that it would be useful for for purposes You know But you know I think I ve been I ve I I ve gathered data from undergrads at on campus and if you just post randomly to undergrads I think you would get such a mixed bag that it would be hard to know how much conversation you would have at all And and the English you would have The language models would be really hard to build 
Professor D: Well you want to i 
Postdoc E: because it would not really be it would be an interlanguage rather than pause than a 
Professor D: Well OK first place I I I do not think we would just want to have random people come down and talk to one another I think there should be a meeting that has some goal and point cuz I I think that s what we are investigating 
PhD F: It has to be a a pre existing meeting pause like a meeting that would otherwise happen anyway 
Professor D: So I was I was thinking more in terms of talking to professors and and and senior d and doctoral students who are leading projects and offering to them that they have their hold their meeting down here 
PhD F: That s I think what we and I agree with 
Postdoc E: Oh I see Oh interesting ! 
Professor D: that s the first point The second point is I think that for some time now going back through BeRP I think that we have had speakers that we ve worked with who had non native accents and I th I think that 
Postdoc E: Oh oh I m not saying accents you The accent s not the problem No it s more a matter of proficiency e e just simply fluency I mean I deal with people on on campus who I think sometimes people undergraduates in computer science have language skills that make you know that their their fluency and writing skills are not so strong 
Professor D: Oh ! You are not talking about foreign language at all You are just talking about 
Postdoc E: Well e I just think 
Grad B: We all had the same thought 
Postdoc E: but you know it s like when you get into the graduate level no problem I mean I m not saying accents 
Professor D: then we are completely gone 
Postdoc E: I m say I m saying fluency 
Professor D: It s The the habits are already burnt in 
Postdoc E: Well I m just saying fluency 
Grad B: Well I think that I think that the only thing we should say in the advertisement is that the meeting should be held in English And and I think if it s a pre existing meeting and it s held in English comment I I think it s probably OK if a few of the people do not have g particularly good English skills",Postdoc E was championing the need to get proficient English speakers so as to allow for a stable language model. This did not mean limiting the type of accents that the speakers had but rather ensuring the speakers could proficiently follow the English grammar when they expressed themselves.
"PhD F: Cuz I mean one remote possibility is that if we st if we inherited that equipment if she were not using it could we set up a room in the linguistics department ? And and I mean there there may be a lot more or or in psych or in comp wherever in another building where we could record people there I think we would have a better chance 
Grad B: I think we would need a real motivated partner to do that We would need to find someone on campus who was interested in this 
PhD F: Right but Right But if there were such a I mean it s a remote possibility then you know one of us could you know go up there and record the meeting or something rather than bring all of them down here So it s just a just a thought if they end up not using the the hardware 
Professor D: Well the other thing I mean the other thing that I was hoping to do in the first place was to turn it into some kind of portable thing so you could wheel it around",One proposed solution was to set up another room in the linguistics department. This needed a dedicated partner and safety of the equipment for it to work. Professor D talked about making the equipment portable allowing it to be transported from meeting to meeting.
"Professor D: Well the other thing I mean the other thing that I was hoping to do in the first place was to turn it into some kind of portable thing so you could wheel it around 
Grad B: Well I know that space is really scarce on at least in CS You know to to actually find a room that we could use regularly might actually be very difficult 
PhD F: But you may not need a separate room you know the idea is if they have a meeting room and they can guarantee that the equipment will be safe and so forth and if one of us is up there once a week to record the meeting or something 
Professor D: Well maybe John would let us put it into the phonology lab or something 
PhD F: I I think it s not out of the question 
Grad B: I think it would be interesting because then we could regularly get another meeting 
PhD C: But I I I think you need another portable thing a another portable equipment to to do eh more e easier the recording process eh out from ICSI Eh and probably I do not know Eh if you you want to to record eh a seminar or a class eh in the university you you need It it would be eh eh very difficult to to put eh a lot of eh head phones eh in different people when you have to to record only with eh this kind of eh d device 
Grad B: but I think if we if we want to just record with the tabletop microphones that s easy Right ? That s very easy but that s not the corpus that we are collecting 
Professor D: Actually that s a int that raises an interesting point that came up in our discussion that s maybe worth repeating We realized that when we were talking about this that OK there s these different things that we want to do with it So it s true that we want to be selective in some ways the way that you were speaking about with not having an interlingua and these other issues But on the other hand it s not necessarily true that we need all of the corpus to satisfy all of it So a a as per the example that we want to have a fair amount that s done with a small n recorded with a small typ number of types of meetings But we can also have another part that s just one or two meetings of each of a of a range of them and that s OK too i We realized in discussion that the other thing is what about this business of distant and close microphones ? I mean we really want to have a substantial amount recorded this way that s why we did it But pause what about For th for these issues of summarization a lot of these higher level things you do not really need the distant microphone 
PhD F: Right I mean I c I think there s 
Grad B: And you do not really need the close microphone you mean 
PhD F: Yea you actually do not really even need any fancy microphone 
Postdoc E: Which one did you mean ? 
Professor D: You d You do not ne it does not you just need some microphone somewhere 
PhD F: You can use found data use but I think that any pause data that we spend a lot of effort nonvocalsound to collect you know each person who s interested in I mean we have a cou we have a bunch of different slants and perspectives on what it s useful for they need to be taking charge of making sure they are getting enough of the kind of data that they want And So in my case I think there w there is enough data for some kinds of projects and not enough for others 
Grad B: Not enough for others right 
PhD F: And so nonvocalsound I m looking and thinking `` Well I would be glad to walk over and record people and so nonvocalsound forth if it s to help th in my interest `` And other people need to do that for themselves h or at least discuss it so that we can find some optimal 
Professor D: But I think that I m raising that cuz I think it s relevant exactly for this idea up there that if you think about `` Well gee we have this really complicated setup to do `` well maybe you do not Maybe if if If really all you want is to have a a a recording that s good enough to get a a transcription from later you just need to grab a tape recorder and go up and make a recording","The group wanted to introduce portable equipment so as to get more meetings from different groups. However, this was challenged by the complexity of setting up the recording equipment."
"Grad B: We are slowly slowly getting to the point where we have enough sp room to record meetings So I did a bunch of archiving and still doing a bunch of archiving I I m in the midst of doing the P files from Broadcast News and it took eleven hours comment to do to copy it And it will take another eleven to do the clone 
PhD A: Where did you copy it to ? 
Grad B: Well it s Abbott It s Abbott so it just But it s it s a lot of data 
Professor D: Sk It s copying from one place on Abbott to another place on Abbott ? 
Grad B: So I m archiving it and then I m going to delete the files So that will give us ten gigabytes of free space 
Postdoc E: the archiving m pause program does take a long time 
Grad B: Yep And so one That that will be done like in about two hours And so at that point we will be able to record five more meetings So 
Postdoc E: One thing The good news about that that is that once once it s archived it s pretty quick to get back I mean it it it The other direction is fast but this direction is really slow 
Grad B: Well especially because I m generating a clone also So And that takes a while 
Postdoc E: that s a good point","Grad B said that archiving of the data by creating a clone had been done, though it took eleven hours. However, Grad B commented that accessing the data would be much faster. This archiving had freed ten gigabytes of free space. Additionally, two copies would be made: one offisite, another onsite."
"Professor D: W w we are getting more space We are getting another disk rack and and four thirty six gigabyte disks pause so pause pause but that s not going to happen instantaneously 
Grad B: The SUN ha takes more disks than the Andatico one did The SUN rack takes comment Th One took four and one took six or maybe it was eight and twelve Whatever it was it was pause you know fifty percent more 
PhD A: Is there a difference in price or something ? 
Grad B: Well what happened is that we we bought all our racks and disks from Andatico for years according to Dave and Andatico got bought by another company and doubled their prices And so we are looking into other vendors `` We `` By `` we `` of course I mean Dave 
PhD A: I ve been looking at the Aurora data and first first look at it there were basically three directories on there that could be moved One was called Aurora one was Spanish which was Carmen s Spanish stuff and the other one was SPINE And so I wrote to Dan and he was very concerned that the SPINE stuff was moving to a non backed up disk So I realized that well probably not all of that should be moved just pause the pause CD ROM type data the pause the static data So I moved that and then I asked him to check out and see if it was OK before I actually deleted the old stuff but I have not heard back yet I told him he could delete it if he wanted to I have not checked pause today to see if he s deleted it or not And then Carmen s stuff I realized that when I had copied all of her stuff to XA I had copied stuff there that was dynamic data And so I had to redo that one and just copy over the static data And so I need to get with her now and delete the old stuff off the disk And then I lo have not done any of the Aurora stuff I have to meet with Stephane to do that So","Professor D said they would be getting another disk rack that would bring in four thirty-six gigabyte disks, increasing the space. Additionally, the directories of Aurora data, Carmen’s Data and SPINE were likely to be moved."
"Project Manager: I just forgot their name so you are i sorry I just forgot them all So I have to write it down Do you know them or 
Marketing: For for for my sur 
Project Manager: no but your b your surname 
Marketing: M M I mean M Double M 
Project Manager: And what is your name ? WIES z Z or S ? 
User Interface: A E Z zee zee 
Project Manager: What is your name ? but your surname Your surname 
Industrial Designer: What ? Abbing A B B I N G I was a little short on time 
Project Manager: me too so that is not No no no I just fi first my 
User Interface: let us see Which one was mine ? 
Project Manager: So let us have a look we have forty minutes so it is it is more than enough perfect So we have Oh no what is that ? So so we have forty minutes for this for this second meeting and we have to make sure that we going t that we are sure that we are that we know what we are going to make th what the product is going to like look like first I have the notes of the last meeting so I showed show them to you Oh sorry about that I just escape this one How do I escape this ? How do I I escape this s presentation ? And show sorry so let us have a look s at this one so the f the f the points we had last meeting was the Should be a univ universal remote control No that is I s I just got a email from the from the personal coach and it should be a TV remote control only So have you changed that part ? so it still has to be f a r a remote control for kids and elderly It is it is still the same All these points we have to look at You all know them But there is another point The the main people of interest of this company are forty plus people So they are old and not younger people So we have to look at that as well Specially old people maybe bi bigger buttons or something I do not know so So that is it so just you can do your presentation for Oh it does not matter just start with the 
Marketing: Well my name is Jens Damman but we are in a group and I I will start it Wait I have used a marketing report on the site I think you have read it too and f and furthermore I surfed the o the other site 
Project Manager: I I did not read i read it so it is not for me 
Marketing: You did not read it ? 
Project Manager: I did not get it anyway 
User Interface: No I didn do not thing we got it 
Project Manager: It is only for you 
Marketing: Oh I I was the only one who get it it was a report about an experiment with a lot of users And they had a lot of findings in their report with statistical thing with statistical proof So I I had three pages with findings and sev a lot of a lot of findings So we can use this to create our own remote control seventy five percent of the users find most remote controls ugly I think that is a lot so we have to make a beautiful remote control eighty percent of users would spend when a remote control will l look fancy I think this fits at the what what Michael said about older people Older people will spend more money for something what is good Because younger people are more critical about where they spend their money money at seventy five percent seventy five percent of the users say they zap a lot Well that is normal I think we we have to make good zap buttons But that is one of our requirements 
Project Manager: The last point is quite an interesting 
Marketing: Yes fifty percent of users say they only use ten percent of the buttons Martijn alr already said it And maybe our fold open system is is a good one but I do not think it is 
Project Manager: we should have the ten percent on the on the top then you are you are 
Marketing: the ten percent on the top That that is a good one page two Remote controls are often lost somewhere in the room That is exactly what we said about maybe a home station for for it to recharge the batteries or something I thought mo maybe we could make a clap system so when you clap your hands it will beep or something you must find it quickly 
User Interface: Maybe just a button on the home station So remote control beeps when you click that button on the home station 
Marketing: we can combine that it takes too much time to learn how to use a r new remote control I think we must t take a look at this It is only th thirty four of the thirty four percent But it is a tough one Because if we make a ha whole new product our own style we we c this is so difficult a difficulty I think next remote controls are bad for RSI but only if they zap a lot and they watch over five hours TV or something I do not We we have not we must not look too much at the last point last page the last experiment was about gadgets like speech recognition We did not think about that already And an LCD on the remote control We already thought about that they finally had a conclusion that younger people under an age of f forty five are more interested in new features And but they are more critical And older people want to spend more money But they they do not want to have a lot of new features because they are in their old thinking way And they want to keep the old things the old things 
Project Manager: So we have a new age of forty plus 
Marketing: But y But you but you already said that the company was about forty plus clients ? 
Project Manager: People So so we just can skip the LCD r on the remote control 
Marketing: I I think we can speak we can skip speech recognition directly because it is not reachable for twenty five Euros then I have my personal preference that is not very good because I thought about television DVD player stereo and VCR I had a question about But it is already out of the question this my point is well I If we ma make a a remote control for only television I think it is hard to sell it for twenty five Euros But it is the exercise 
Project Manager: Because it is too expensive probably 
Marketing: only only for television On the market you can now buy for twenty Euros a remote control for everything And we only make it for television so we mi mm we m must made it make it very special 
User Interface: but good usability so you can use it 
Marketing: I told about the home station it must be simple because our the the elderly people needs to use it And I I found a motto And we put the fashion in electronics And that is the motto we are referenced to for our our style We we have to make a a new product We have to be One of a kind I think 
Project Manager: So it has to look unique 
Marketing: The company is about our th th their own fashion their own style 
Project Manager: But old people are not looking for that 
Industrial Designer: I think the main thing is the usability that is where we can make it a special product 
Marketing: to k to keep it simple when you 
User Interface: But we also have to stand out 
Marketing: Sorry I thought about it yes 
User Interface: because there are already like you said so many controls out that support lot of stuff But we have to make sure that we are better usability and stand out by just looks of it So make it just a different colour or different shape","Marketing gave some suggestions on the remote functional requirements based on marketing reports, which included a fancy look of the remote control, ease of use for elderly people, a button on the home station to trace its position, and speech recognition. So finally, the group mates suggested the usability and the color of the remote control based on Marketing's presentation."
"Marketing: the last experiment was about gadgets like speech recognition We did not think about that already And an LCD on the remote control We already thought about that they finally had a conclusion that younger people under an age of f forty five are more interested in new features And but they are more critical And older people want to spend more money But they they do not want to have a lot of new features because they are in their old thinking way And they want to keep the old things the old things 
Project Manager: So we have a new age of forty plus 
Marketing: But y But you but you already said that the company was about forty plus clients ? 
Project Manager: People So so we just can skip the LCD r on the remote control 
Marketing: I I think we can speak we can skip speech recognition directly because it is not reachable for twenty five Euros then I have my personal preference that is not very good because I thought about television DVD player stereo and VCR I had a question about But it is already out of the question this my point is well I If we ma make a a remote control for only television I think it is hard to sell it for twenty five Euros But it is the exercise 
Project Manager: Because it is too expensive probably","When Marketing mentioned that their target group should be both young people and people above forty who were not keen on new features, Marketing thought it would be too expensive to have the speech recognition and not reachable for twenty-five Euros. Also, Marketing suggested a DVD player, stereo, and VCR for television."
"Marketing: only only for television On the market you can now buy for twenty Euros a remote control for everything And we only make it for television so we mi mm we m must made it make it very special 
User Interface: but good usability so you can use it 
Marketing: I told about the home station it must be simple because our the the elderly people needs to use it And I I found a motto And we put the fashion in electronics And that is the motto we are referenced to for our our style We we have to make a a new product We have to be One of a kind I think 
Project Manager: So it has to look unique 
Marketing: The company is about our th th their own fashion their own style 
Project Manager: But old people are not looking for that 
Industrial Designer: I think the main thing is the usability that is where we can make it a special product 
Marketing: to k to keep it simple when you 
User Interface: But we also have to stand out 
Marketing: Sorry I thought about it yes 
User Interface: because there are already like you said so many controls out that support lot of stuff But we have to make sure that we are better usability and stand out by just looks of it So make it just a different colour or different shape","When Marketing mentioned that they should make a new product that looked fancy, fashionable, and was easy to use for elderly users, User Interface suggested making sure that the remote control had better usability and could stand out by just being watched. Also, Marketing suggested a different color or different shape."
"Project Manager: Paul you can do the next one if you want 
Marketing: You can ask some questions or something 
Project Manager: It is on the on the net net thing 
User Interface: Technical functions design well so we have s mm broad audience Is not that is not true anymore But we have elderly people so we need to keep it simple the way I want to keep it simple is to use the sen standard So standardised methods like on all remote controls Not too full like Jens already said only ten percent is being used 
Project Manager: So what do you think of only the numbers and the onoff button or 
User Interface: I have it on the next page But yes basic functions like numbers and that sort of stuff so the options that we put on there should be easy to use and because you have more room then and for elderly people big buttons an icon on it or text on it so it is very clear what that buttons does So it does not take much time to figure out how to use it a way to find out what people use is maybe just to use questionnaires on the internet or just ask some random people elderly people what they use what they want on a remote control to find out But there is already in a one done Of functions I could think of volume channels the the basic according to Just one two three etcetera text service options basic onoff And I found an Could I think of favourites ? I always look up the same pages on text and always have to click the number But if you could make a new option that you just have to press one button and you get on your 
Industrial Designer: but then you have to remember what favourite is what channel So you might as well remember the number Or not ? 
Project Manager: Maybe i maybe it is too complicated It is a good idea but 
User Interface: it is It was just a thought So I am I you I would find it handy I think when you just press one button and you get on six six six 
Industrial Designer: But how can you remember what channel connects to what favourite button ? 
User Interface: what I was reading on the page a remote control just sends commands basics commands to the television So switch to channel six So button six says says six And if you make favourites it can say six six six in a row Just numbers That can be in the in the 
Industrial Designer: But for a user to to remember if I press that button it goes to that channel 
User Interface: Well if you said a favourite 
Industrial Designer: but is not it hard to remember ? Like favourite one and 
Project Manager: mayb for me it is If I use my telephone I never use those buttons to to to call sh Never If I do not do it maybe old people 
User Interface: No maybe elderly people Right They do not like new features So maybe not well play pause I do not know if that is usable 
Project Manager: It is not it is still not It is not anymore n 
User Interface: when Not anymore for TV Right on off I do not know miss Did I miss any other buttons basic buttons ? I could not think of any other specially not for TV 
Project Manager: Just on the front as well No that is the only th the only thing you need 
Industrial Designer: the p next and previous Previous I know but next channel ? 
User Interface: Just the channel What I mean is 
Industrial Designer: Li like a web browser 
User Interface: Six seven eight or five 
Industrial Designer: But there is also a button to go to the channel you have been before Like a web browser back button 
User Interface: I do not have I did 
Project Manager: I know what it is but I think it is all too difficult for old people 
User Interface: I do not think you use that Y only when you want to go to just use when you want to switch between channels all the time 
Project Manager: And how do you want to do it like if you have a channel above ten ? Normally you can press one zero or 
User Interface: I think f Especially for older peo elderly people use standard buttons So you have that the ten plus button Just one one pressing or quickly after each other To just keep it simple and standard features 
Industrial Designer: w would not it be a problem to Because you h have to be fast enough Maybe the elderly people 
User Interface: But I think that is in the TV as well That is how the the TV TV handles it But you can have a button that says two two st two stripes 
Marketing: it is it is no it is not a 
User Interface: So you have like a five seconds period to press those two buttons 
Industrial Designer: but that is th mm 
Marketing: It is what Paul says It is not a remote control that makes the TV do one two It is the TV who depends that it must be two seconds or three seconds or one second that you must type one or two 
User Interface: So if you have a universal TV controller you needed one button that has two stripes So we have a a period of I do not know five seconds to press those buttons and that And not for elderly people to look one two press and aim and 
Project Manager: But do we still need a two level remote control ? Because if we only have that l only f 
Marketing: It is only for television now 
User Interface: So I I do not think so I just thought of another one Most things in modern TVs are also on the menu So you also need a menu button And then navigation But we can integrate that with volume and previous and next 
Industrial Designer: I I think you ha really have to divide between functions you often use like m maybe switch channels and volume and k that kind of things and the menu button Because you n almost never use menu button 
Project Manager: Maybe it is still still a good idea I am not sure You will also have to use a mute button to to I do not know where where you have to put it 
User Interface: that is that is I think that is the layers that produce Now I have to figure out what is what to put on What we are going to use And later we can d do the design now my personal preferences using the standards basic I think that we should stand out unique being unique with the design So we have to I do not know make a different shape than usual So when you are in the shop and you see our TV controller hanging that it stands out Not just in in the row when you see all the same remote controls 
Project Manager: Does it have to be it has to be with different colours 
User Interface: I do not know Different colours 
Marketing: Maybe we can give it out in different colours You can choose blue or yellow 
Project Manager: It is like a iMac or something 
User Interface: Well why not ? Or 
Marketing: That is fa That is fancy That is fashion 
Project Manager: But it looks cheap as well because it is a small thing It is only twenty five Euros It looks very cheap if you make it 
User Interface: Well maybe you can look at mobile phones 
Project Manager: Oh you just I do not know what happened we have to look at mobile phones that is right Just 
User Interface: They they are designed very well And well basically are the same just a bit smaller You think you can not make a TV controller too small because then you will always lo always lose it But well I think that is a good example 
Project Manager: we hurry up a bit because otherwise we will not make it Is it fin Are you finished ? 
User Interface: I I am finished I think we discussed everything","Firstly, User Interface suggested the group should stand up with a unique design like different shapes than usual. User Interface also suggested a new option for favorite channels and a menu button that could integrate with volume, the previous and next buttons. The group agreed to make the remote a bit smaller and would like to look at mobile phones when designing it."
"Marketing: Evaluation crit evaluation presentation It is not in d it does not matter It only had two pages or something well I looked in the reports from the marketing strategy or of the the the the the the new needs and the market The Italians how they think about it And The research about the the comp the the the users and that kind of stuff I made some criteria and we have to test the criteria from one to zero We sh we we we can give it a number and then we can give ourself an average for our And this These are all I I I found or I wrote down And we have to discuss about if we give it a one or a seven 
Project Manager: I think if you have a kind of iPod idea It quite beautiful We are actu We are the 
Marketing: the the the difference be between beautiful and fancy lookandfeel is the the the outside beautiful like the iPod or something And fancys more like the mm f the flashing lights and the colours and and that kind of stuff 
User Interface: Well I think we do If it is really if you can if you can get the iPod look then it is beautiful I think 
Marketing: And and what ki what kind of what kind of basic colours were you thought of ? 
Industrial Designer: beautifuls is also a matter of taste 
Marketing: The basic colours are black or green or yellow ? Or you have not thought about 
User Interface: Well you did not say 
Marketing: Ho how do we make 
User Interface: A bit a bit of yellow 
Project Manager: Do we have yellow light ? No not really but it is possible 
User Interface: Not not not yellow but just a bit of light yellow Like white also ni or always nice 
Industrial Designer: And what colours should the buttons be ? 
Project Manager: Oh the same as th th the cover But also th the light behind it 
Industrial Designer: But can you change those too with the switch ? 
Project Manager: No no Make them No just make them black or grey or something 
User Interface: grey Just dark grey I think 
Marketing: so what number do we give a beautiful ? Beautiful is really subjective because it has to do lots with the colours 
User Interface: Well we have changeable fronts so 
Marketing: Changeable fronts so ev for everyone for everyone it is something beautiful 
Project Manager: just give it a one It is It is perfect I think it is just what you want Or not ? 
User Interface: It is hard to decide for us but 
Industrial Designer: It is ju so subjective 
User Interface: It it is At least it is a lot better than current remote controls 
Project Manager: just give it a two 
Marketing: A two The fancy lookandfeel That is about our flashing lights and the background lights from from from the buttons And we can change the colours so that is really fancy I think 
Industrial Designer: Are w are we changing Or are they there backlights on the slide panel too ? Or n no back light ? 
Project Manager: No No it is only on the number behind the numbers 
Industrial Designer: And and the switch channel is There is a back light too ? 
Marketing: Oh you mean th this here ? 
User Interface: What do I think is necessary necessary item ? 
Marketing: It is pretty cool If you slide it open it lights up That is that is really fancy but I do not know if it is reachable 
User Interface: Of course it is reachable maybe just some light to to light it all up So you can see what is really there Not just not re on the buttons or something Just a green light or some blue light To light it all up 
Industrial Designer: just backlight Not not the buttons And th and the the normal backlights also not the buttons but behind the buttons So the buttons are just grey 
Project Manager: just only that is right 
Marketing: fine So I I think it is very fancy 
Project Manager: So that is how I think 
User Interface: w we have done a a lot of detail in light so 
Marketing: So I will give it a and you can also choose your light so 
Project Manager: this It is a one It is It is cool 
Marketing: I think it is one next 
Project Manager: This is a difficult one because we we do not we do not know it about the 
Marketing: Learnable ? Easy to use ? we shall test it But 
Project Manager: it is it is very easy to use but the second layer is not easy to use 
Industrial Designer: No but you do not have to use that And you on do not have to pay attention to that second layer That is th that is the main thing that is so good about it 
User Interface: So I think it is easy to use but And learnable is a bit 
Marketing: Learnable ? It is not not as fast as a usual remote control 
Industrial Designer: Well I think it is 
Marketing: Because because I think I think the scroll wheel it is very handy but the first time you get this thing in your hands it is not to use the scroll wheel I think you must seek for it and up or down or 
Project Manager: But the rest of it is very easy because there are so so n 
User Interface: I think it is very clear what it all does 
Industrial Designer: So so few information that you can easily decide what buttons w for what function 
User Interface: But the second parts like speech etcetera that will be harder to learn 
Project Manager: So it is learnable f i i In the first place it is very easy to use And I think its scrollwheel is you easy to use as well if you have ever used a different kind of of device 
Marketing: But we we have got the two so two two or three new things huh ? And maybe we maybe learnable is in compare of old fashion remote controls So we h we have speech the scroll wheel and the the the slide You must slide it And that is not normal at the normal remote controls Because I think learnable is a l a less than easy to use Because easy to use comes after learnable 
Project Manager: just Easy to use is very cool 
Marketing: I I think it a three or something 
Project Manager: so just give it a two No but definitely better much better than than than avera average 
Industrial Designer: And the one you showed is just all buttons and you do not know 
User Interface: Yep true Then a two 
Marketing: New features Techno technological innovative ? 
Industrial Designer: The speech function and the colour Colour 
Marketing: The speech function is new 
User Interface: And the scrollwheel backlights slide 
Marketing: The scrollwheel and the slide I think the slide is pretty new 
Project Manager: Slide is not n is is not new No I already have a 
Marketing: I only saw it in a telephone not in an remote control 
Project Manager: I already have a VCR and it is about from nineteen eighty eight And they all have a slide in it So that is not new 
User Interface: But also slide that buttons come out as well ? 
Marketing: and the the the lightning ? 
Project Manager: for a for a f 
Industrial Designer: Mm it is pretty new I think 
Marketing: different fronts for a remote control I think that is new too So we have a pretty new 
Project Manager: There are no games on it that is that is It is not a one it is a two again 
User Interface: That would And we did not 
Marketing: It is it is it is not not LCD or something 
User Interface: But then we also have the the home station We are forgetting about that now but 
Project Manager: Oh that is right Rechargeable 
Industrial Designer: we did not draw that too but 
User Interface: But that is more like now 
Industrial Designer: that is just a normal th s simple thing 
Project Manager: If you Can you save it on the same in the same map as the other ones ? In the the project map ? 
User Interface: Just save save as ? 
Project Manager: Mmhmm save as ? No that is not in the project 
Industrial Designer: Well it is a already in the folder L like number seven 
Project Manager: This one is not yet in the Oh oh 
Industrial Designer: No I think it is 
User Interface: it does not matter Save 
Project Manager: But you still have to draw the resi the recharger 
Marketing: all the the seven all the seven 
Project Manager: And new features so we give it a two or also again a one ? No I think i if you have games on it then then you give you have a one But not 
Marketing: No we are not extraordinary new or something 
Project Manager: No just so it is still a two Targeted audience we are the targeted audience ? Do we like it ? 
Marketing: No we we we searched for a young group audience beneath f forty 
Project Manager: but l younger than forty So we we are exactly the targeted group 
Marketing: Yes but did we reach with our style the targeted audience ? Th that is my question 
Project Manager: You get the fancy things for younger people And you get the the aesthetic things for older people 
Industrial Designer: We have got a one for fancy lookandfeel and that is what attracts the young audience So think that is a two or a one 
Marketing: the only point is that we do not have That is that is That is this question 
Industrial Designer: but s it That is basically not not handy And I do not thi I do not see 
Marketing: So we targeted it ? But we did not follow the latest trends 
Industrial Designer: No you could make a a front 
User Interface: Mm I think we followed the latest trends 
Industrial Designer: a front that is that is like like a banana or something 
Marketing: Tha these are the only latest trends I get on my computer 
User Interface: Oh right Well fruit and vegetables 
Marketing: th So we had we have a fruit 
Industrial Designer: Like a a f banana kind of front 
Marketing: Oh But spongy will never be So we give ourself a three or something What is the average ? 
Project Manager: it is one point eight three 
Marketing: A perfect score No I do not know 
Industrial Designer: We are not too hard on ourselves 
User Interface: This is a a power indicator So you can see how far it is charged up 
Marketing: And and you need n a button to call it to let it beep 
Industrial Designer: but we have to make a speaker then too If you want to make it beep 
Project Manager: maybe we have to skip that one 
User Interface: No no I want that in 
Industrial Designer: But we can we can do it underneath the logo 
Marketing: No we need that That is usable That is really usable 
User Interface: th the speaker is very small as well right ? 
Project Manager: So I just got a financial You s saved it or No let us have a look at this one here the production cost of it If I forgot anything just say it to me It just is a battery there are some that they did not mention because recharge is not on the list But So I think we are pretty much in the right direction because it is twelve point three Euros So this is a regular chip incl and and a sample speaker 
Marketing: Come on it is perfect twelve point three point three 
Industrial Designer: But but is it inc Does it include a a homestation or 
Project Manager: No that is not on the list But that should not be 
Industrial Designer: Can we make that for h twenty cents ? 
Project Manager: Probably I just The b the button supplements I did not I d I was wondering if this special colour maybe was I am not sure 
User Interface: different fronts but standard front will not be 
Project Manager: See it is I think it is like this It is hard to say But maybe we have to Special colour you can skip this one because it is all quite normal We get different ones that is all So you can put a recharger in it as well But this is expensive the sample speaker 
Marketing: Four It is four Euros 
User Interface: Oh them Is that included ? In the twelve Euro or then we then we need to use it 
Industrial Designer: It is kind of weird that we we get this information now afterwards Because 
Project Manager: so this is pretty much it this 
User Interface: Damn solar cells are expensive 
Project Manager: So I just want you we just made it So we can do the project evalu evaluation now for for everything together We can do some discussion about this Was there room for creativity ? Paul was there room for crea creativity ? 
User Interface: Mm i I think so I think everyone already So 
Industrial Designer: m If we got a high mark for innovativeness or innovativity then there we probably have been creative 
User Interface: I think we discussed a lot of things about it So 
Marketing: We could make a lot of different remote controls 
Project Manager: so the leadership Was there a leadership and What do you have to say about that ? 
Marketing: Who was the leader ? 
Industrial Designer: Just normal discussion I think Not 
User Interface: One leader to check the time etcetera So more like a secretary","Marketing set the criteria for evaluation. The group gave two points on the fancy look and feel, three points on the ease of use and learnable, and two points on technological innovation because the group thought new features were not all extraordinary. Besides, they gave two points on the target market trend which said that the products with fruit and vegetables in different colors might be popular. Lastly, they gave high marks on the room for creativity and leadership."
"Marketing: Learnable ? Easy to use ? we shall test it But 
Project Manager: it is it is very easy to use but the second layer is not easy to use 
Industrial Designer: No but you do not have to use that And you on do not have to pay attention to that second layer That is th that is the main thing that is so good about it 
User Interface: So I think it is easy to use but And learnable is a bit 
Marketing: Learnable ? It is not not as fast as a usual remote control 
Industrial Designer: Well I think it is 
Marketing: Because because I think I think the scroll wheel it is very handy but the first time you get this thing in your hands it is not to use the scroll wheel I think you must seek for it and up or down or 
Project Manager: But the rest of it is very easy because there are so so n 
User Interface: I think it is very clear what it all does 
Industrial Designer: So so few information that you can easily decide what buttons w for what function 
User Interface: But the second parts like speech etcetera that will be harder to learn 
Project Manager: So it is learnable f i i In the first place it is very easy to use And I think its scrollwheel is you easy to use as well if you have ever used a different kind of of device 
Marketing: But we we have got the two so two two or three new things huh ? And maybe we maybe learnable is in compare of old fashion remote controls So we h we have speech the scroll wheel and the the the slide You must slide it And that is not normal at the normal remote controls Because I think learnable is a l a less than easy to use Because easy to use comes after learnable 
Project Manager: just Easy to use is very cool 
Marketing: I I think it a three or something 
Project Manager: so just give it a two No but definitely better much better than than than avera average",Project Manager thought the second layer of the remote was not easy to learn but Industrial Designer responded that users would not need to pay attention to that part. The group reached a consensus that the scroll wheel was much better than average. So they gave a two on this criterion.
"User Interface: This is a a power indicator So you can see how far it is charged up 
Marketing: And and you need n a button to call it to let it beep 
Industrial Designer: but we have to make a speaker then too If you want to make it beep 
Project Manager: maybe we have to skip that one 
User Interface: No no I want that in 
Industrial Designer: But we can we can do it underneath the logo 
Marketing: No we need that That is usable That is really usable 
User Interface: th the speaker is very small as well right ? 
Project Manager: So I just got a financial You s saved it or No let us have a look at this one here the production cost of it If I forgot anything just say it to me It just is a battery there are some that they did not mention because recharge is not on the list But So I think we are pretty much in the right direction because it is twelve point three Euros So this is a regular chip incl and and a sample speaker 
Marketing: Come on it is perfect twelve point three point three","Project Manager thought they should skip the speaker when User Interface mentioned the power indicator. Marketing recommended that they need a button to beep for calling and they should include the speaker because it was usable and small enough. Also, Marketing supplemented that the production cost has been considered and within 12.3 Euros."
"Project Manager: team work The the third meeting I think that one was pretty hard We were not all We were not agree with every not agree with 
Industrial Designer: w we had so much information that we get through email and just 
User Interface: I think we we got wrong information at the wrong time I think that was the m biggest problem Like the prices If we knew that before we could have had discussion really s really quicker 
Marketing: because the prices could be twenty Euros or something now 
User Interface: and if you had fifteen Euros then we would it 
Industrial Designer: So we are bacal basically just lucky to get the price right 
Marketing: everybody could speak their opinion And 
User Interface: I think everyone listen to each other Like marketing said things and then we had to i include them in the design 
Project Manager: Kay what I have to say about means The smart board is Digital pen is horrible I do not know if you use it But if you want to download it to your computer it is does not work 
User Interface: Well smart board would be very nice to work with if it worked really well Just not work too slow 
Industrial Designer: i if if it would be faster it would be great 
Marketing: the drawings are are hard to make I think 
User Interface: more accurate it is i It should be more accurate And I think it would be great if you could edit it from just with a mouse from where you are sitting Not just pointing out on it 
Project Manager: It is the same for the presenta for the presentations You can do it from here That is much easier than standing there 
Industrial Designer: and p just point with a mouse 
User Interface: No use to draw on the board itself It is just slows down 
Industrial Designer: Just old fashioned kind of blackboard style But you might as well do it in normal computer style 
User Interface: even harder to draw like this than black board style 
Industrial Designer: And it is far too slow this way 
User Interface: You cou You could draw on it but not as main function 
Project Manager: So we made it in time And we made a remote control I do not know what it mean Just 
User Interface: I just think if we 
Marketing: To gather or to work together or new ideas for 
User Interface: For remote control a favourite for your text 
Marketing: No for the prototype New ideas 
Industrial Designer: but still you could not make a fancy a f you could not make a a prototype out of this Because we do not have any sizes and 
Project Manager: But it is for the next team We do not have to do that 
Industrial Designer: but it You can not possibly do that in such a short time I think 
User Interface: That is for this this is just the idea phase the 
Industrial Designer: So are we finished ? 
Project Manager: Yes I think just I just write a final report No we have only four minutes left it is 
User Interface: Oh what do we have to do now Do we I thought we were done at four of the clock ? 
Industrial Designer: It is now quarter past three So 
Marketing: I should take some pictures 
User Interface: Mm we can do it afterwards so I found it as well One two three four five six seven cameras Mm not bad 
Industrial Designer: Now we can look at this We are probably not supposed to look at this but 
User Interface: They went for for a universal device but also a different device Then an LCD would be handy 
Industrial Designer: Here are the basic functions in here the selecting dev devices 
User Interface: and touch screens for all our stuff I do agree with that tudum English is not so hard by the way 
Marketing: I am breaking a world record here 
User Interface: Well leader ? Project Manager ? 
Marketing: Oh shit We have got a problem Paul 
User Interface: You do ? you have to make a choice 
Marketing: Yes No it is your choice 
User Interface: Wow that is pretty quick You have to decide It is the lower one 
Marketing: What is this ? A bomb or not a bo 
User Interface: No no the upper one is the bomb 
Marketing: I knew it Four in a row 
User Interface: No That is too much work 
Marketing: Is that previous work ? Oh that is so stupid No that does not work 
User Interface: No you got to use the magic pen What if I put one there ? you had two choices That is going to be draw Or not I will put it here You are going to put it there 
Marketing: then I put it there No one wins 
User Interface: It is a difficult choice either here or there 
Industrial Designer: This is a very interesting design 
Marketing: It is just the same as normal 
Industrial Designer: Well it has a LCD I think And what else do we have ? 
Marketing: Kay wait I am going to draw something and you must y 
User Interface: What ? I am going to guess what you are drawing No no the new one they just do not save it A house ? you have to use the pen s stupid 
Project Manager: You have to save everything you know that huh ? 
Industrial Designer: It wants to know what we do in our spare time 
User Interface: It is a house A plant ? 
Marketing: No it is Only you can know it 
User Interface: Oh I can know it It is a 
Marketing: It is very hard to draw 
User Interface: that makes it easier I think I know No wrong I think I know what you are trying to draw but it is wrong already you missed the right side No you are wrong you are wrong 
Marketing: A little bit maybe but 
User Interface: See where you are wrong now ? The entrance 
Marketing: the entrance is more to the left But but but I think this part 
User Interface: Oh no you made another mistake 
Marketing: Oh there are a lot of mistakes because the walls are thick like this 
User Interface: No I w I am not that whiny But there was a big hole here as well and there as well 
Marketing: Oh that is true here they are walking behind the walls 
User Interface: That is a kind of big mistake Warning finish meeting now Guys I think we have to finish the meeting 
Marketing: Kay this is a hard one 
User Interface: What does it say ? 
Industrial Designer: Fill in the questionnaire What now ? 
User Interface: Oh you got to finish over there ? In your own room ? I am going to be so lonely Mm I will clean that up later 
Marketing: This is That is my new interface That is a edited smiley Tomtidom",The remote price would be at twenty Euros. And the production cost would be twelve point three Euros. And the group thought that the use of both the board and the pen to draw on the remote prototype was stupid and not handy enough.
"Project Manager: team work The the third meeting I think that one was pretty hard We were not all We were not agree with every not agree with 
Industrial Designer: w we had so much information that we get through email and just 
User Interface: I think we we got wrong information at the wrong time I think that was the m biggest problem Like the prices If we knew that before we could have had discussion really s really quicker 
Marketing: because the prices could be twenty Euros or something now 
User Interface: and if you had fifteen Euros then we would it","User Interface mentioned that they got the wrong information at the wrong time, and it was the biggest problem. Otherwise, the group could finish the finance discussion earlier, and they should have had discussions quicker."
"Marketing: This stage of the evaluation is really for us as a team to evaluate if we have now got a product specification and prototype design that meets the the criteria that we got from our market research So this is the first stage of the evaluation Now the collection of the criteria as we saw in our previous meeting was based on the user requirements and trends found in the marketing reports and marketing strategy of our company So it is what we have discussed in the last meeting are we actually meeting those trends and requirements ? Now the findings that we came up with just a recap are here The criteria that we want in this remote control are a fancy look and feel technological innovation it should be easy to use it should incorporate current fashion trends and those the two main ones they were the spongy texture and the fruit and vegetable strong design colours The design should minimise RSI and be easy to locate and we were still slightly ambivalent as to whether to use voice recognition there though that did seem to be the favoured strategy but there was also on the sideline the though of maybe having a beeper function so we can come back to that slide if you do not have a note of those I will just show you how we are going to evaluate our own feedback to this to what we have so far We are going to use a seven point scale where one is true and seven is false We look at each of those criteria that I have just mentioned I will call that slide back up and I will just do a preliminary rating of all those criteria on the whiteboard here Does that seem clear ? Any questions there ? we are going to look at these crite So 
User Interface: Is it everybody is going to evaluate or just the Market 
Marketing: we are going to come to w we will discuss each one and we will come to a consensus rating between one and seven One is true seven is false Right So I will not write all of that out again It will just be criteria one two three four five six or A B C D E F to confuse it with the number rating B C D E F This is where I realise how tiny I actually am Criteria and rating Actually it might be an idea if we each did give our own individual rating and we could take an average at the end How about that ? So I will just separate the ratings by obliques and if we go one two three four we know who is who Criteria A the fancy look and feel How do we feel about this prototype model relating to fancy it is a fancy look and feel One is true seven is false My own rating for that would be a two One is true and seven is false 
Industrial Designer: I would I would probably put it two 
Marketing: I will just go this way Adding those up we have got a six and a five eleven divided by four is what ? two and three quarters it that right Two and three quarters ? Two point seven five there we go criteria B criterion B technologically innovative I would give that a three 
Industrial Designer: I would give it a one 
Marketing: Not that you are biased in that it the designer 
Industrial Designer: No no not at all 
User Interface: Oh sorry I I got it wrong The first one rating I am sorry Can you just make it two ? The first I I just it the other way 
Marketing: oh for you ? You want your rating to be a two ? Is that what you are saying ? 
User Interface: in Yep I just got 
Marketing: So I will work out the average for that again at the end It is a very slightly altered and we are just waiting for your rating 
Project Manager: It is just two point five for that one 
Marketing: Two point five Losing one decimal place that is 
User Interface: One is a seven is false 
Marketing: So what are you rating for this one Paw ? Two So that is eight That brings it down to two nice and simple ease of use Easy to use ? Based on what you have said there I would say a one true 
Project Manager: I would say a two I would say a two 
Marketing: Two I should have said a two to make the arithmetic easy should not I ? We will just put almost two 
Project Manager: One point seven f five 
Marketing: because I am not going to get into silly decimal places Or we or if we want to really bring it down we can do later mm now we are looking at it incorporates current fashion trends now that is particularly in relation to our market research findings about the spongy texture to the exterior and the fruit and vegetable design colours Right So I am just thinking before I give it my rating you were limited in the use of materials for your prototype here Is this actually going to be the colours that you would use ? 
Industrial Designer: No no the the base colour was white or or like or l sort of a light blue 
User Interface: White With for the plastic ? blue 
Industrial Designer: but the changeable fa faces would allow you to get any basically any one of a number of colours that th it is full sort of customised 
Marketing: So we could use any strong fruit and veg colours and that is what we are intending to do And the spongy feel is no problem with that 
User Interface: because you will be having a Because of the rubber case 
Industrial Designer: No no because th that is that is the the spongy feel would be in the rubber that you put round it that otherwise it is just sort of hard plastic 
Marketing: In that case it is got to be a one for me 
Industrial Designer: I will give it a one as well 
Marketing: That part was nice and easy moving on to does the design minimise repetitive strain injury I do not think we have really touched on that a lot We have we have discussed it we have not really come up with anything that we felt could feasibly reduce that We have talked about pointers but the very use of a remote control if you are someone who is zapping who is sitting like that and we found so many people did how do you minimise that on such a small device ? 
Project Manager: Well the type of button that we are going to use in the bottom half the material minimises RSI 
Industrial Designer: It is meant to be 
Project Manager: maybe because it is slightl with the size that we have got it is quite small but with the amount of stuff we are putting on it is not that much So maybe because there is more space it is not kind of moving around trying to hit accurately the buttons in between It is quite obvious just big buttons 
Marketing: Right I think I am going to have to be neutral on that and give it a four 
Industrial Designer: I would I would f I would go for a five actually 
Marketing: Twenty one is that twenty one ? So that is four point two five And finally last but not least easy to locate Now we talked about voice recognition we talked about a beeper have we really have the designers come to any dec real decision on that ? 
Industrial Designer: it was it was a voice voice recognition 
Marketing: It was the I am here thing yep And are we happy with the costs on that ? That is going to be feasible costwise That sounds good then I would go for a I ca we can adjust the volume on that just as we could volume on TV So if sombodys in the other room or if TVs in different rooms or 
Industrial Designer: I think it would r I think it would probably be a a stand it would be a stand it would be quite loud So it would be s p 
Marketing: You built into the feature 
Project Manager: And if you did not hear it in the room that you were standing in then you would realise that it was not in that room you would go into another room 
Marketing: Logical That is a one for me 
Industrial Designer: I do realise that we might be being fairly biased because it is our product 
Marketing: how do we feel about this ? We have got our our we have got the highest rating of meeting the specifications that is definitely true for two of the six criteria there That is for incorporates current fashion trends and is easy to locate The lowest rating we have got which is really n it is not terribly low i it is close around neutral is for the minimisation of repetitive strain injury Do we feel on the basis of tha of these evaluation findings that we can go ahead and now produce this as a prototype and market it or do we have to make further modifications ? 
Project Manager: I do not think so 
Industrial Designer: W I thin I think 
Marketing: We happy to go ahead ? 
Project Manager: I think we I think we are set 
Marketing: I think for most of those ratings that it is high enough at the upper end of the scale for us to go ahead with that and I really doubt if on the basis of current technology and our current capabilities we could actually do much more to minimise that 
Project Manager: Do much apart from having a huge big 
Marketing: I know Well I hope that is clear to the team Is there anything you would like to to ask me about the findings before I sum up ? Good Fine then I will just leave it there","Marketing summarized the user requirements according to the market reports. Users expected a fancy look, technological innovation, and minimization of repetitive strain injury. The team did a preliminary rating using a seven-point scale. The results were that the remote control's fashion style and location function were most highly rated, but the team was not satisfied enough with the minimization of repetitive strain injury. The team agreed on further modifications to the current prototype."
"Marketing: it incorporates current fashion trends now that is particularly in relation to our market research findings about the spongy texture to the exterior and the fruit and vegetable design colours Right So I am just thinking before I give it my rating you were limited in the use of materials for your prototype here Is this actually going to be the colours that you would use ? 
Industrial Designer: No no the the base colour was white or or like or l sort of a light blue 
User Interface: White With for the plastic ? blue 
Industrial Designer: but the changeable fa faces would allow you to get any basically any one of a number of colours that th it is full sort of customised 
Marketing: So we could use any strong fruit and veg colours and that is what we are intending to do And the spongy feel is no problem with that 
User Interface: because you will be having a Because of the rubber case 
Industrial Designer: No no because th that is that is the the spongy feel would be in the rubber that you put round it that otherwise it is just sort of hard plastic 
Marketing: In that case it is got to be a one for me","Marketing initially doubted that Industrial Designer was limited in the use of materials for the prototype, which would harm the fashion style. Marketing was soon convinced by Industrial Designer, however, that the changeable faces would allow users to customize their remote controls. Besides, the rubber case would give a spongy feel. Marketing thus rated one point for Industrial Designer's style design."
"Marketing: moving on to does the design minimise repetitive strain injury I do not think we have really touched on that a lot We have we have discussed it we have not really come up with anything that we felt could feasibly reduce that We have talked about pointers but the very use of a remote control if you are someone who is zapping who is sitting like that and we found so many people did how do you minimise that on such a small device ? 
Project Manager: Well the type of button that we are going to use in the bottom half the material minimises RSI 
Industrial Designer: It is meant to be 
Project Manager: maybe because it is slightl with the size that we have got it is quite small but with the amount of stuff we are putting on it is not that much So maybe because there is more space it is not kind of moving around trying to hit accurately the buttons in between It is quite obvious just big buttons 
Marketing: Right I think I am going to have to be neutral on that and give it a four 
Industrial Designer: I would I would f I would go for a five actually 
Marketing: Twenty one is that twenty one ? So that is four point two five","Marketing considered the design of pointers unfeasible, for many users were prone to zap. Project Manager recommended the slight and small-sized buttons with more space in between. Regretfully, the team failed to come up with a perfectly feasible solution to the problem. The team thus gave low rate points to the prototype's minimization of repetitive strain injury."
"Project Manager: that We just type numbers into this and we come out with the final value So are we still on for kinetic ? See it would have been handy to have this at the beginning it might have influenced our choice Right what is happening with the electronics ? 
Industrial Designer: It was a regular chip on print Oh no no no the it is you you have put in three for the number of kinetic cells there should just be one In the top it is the number 
Project Manager: So would there be two ? 
Industrial Designer: and just a no one reg v one of them and one sample sensor and sample speaker And they are double curved No 
Marketing: But it has a slightly flattened bottom so it can sit So it can rest 
Project Manager: So what is a single curve then ? 
Industrial Designer: I would say I would say it was w 
Marketing: It would just be a flat bottom with one curve like a domed thing 
Industrial Designer: I think I think it is no because one ones doublecurved and then the other ones 
Marketing: The other curves at the sides but it is slightly flattened at the bottom so it does not roll over 
Project Manager: Mm we have got plastic and rubber 
User Interface: Plastic one and maybe rubber point five No I think rubber since it is being used just as a casing we can put point five I think it allows the point five We can use that 
Marketing: What does it mean if you put point five for that ? 
User Interface: It means we are not using a lot of rubber actually We are using just a very low quantity of rubber compared to plastic 
Project Manager: It would be like saying we are using See it says case material So we are not actually using plastic in the case are we ? 
Industrial Designer: No no that is it is as an extra 
Project Manager: It is including it is including 
Industrial Designer: So that should not that should not be actually on there because that is not incorporated in the cost of the remote you get 
Marketing: But it is going to be part of the total cost and there is nowhere else we can we can put that in is there ? There is nowhere else we can code for the the rubber used in the casing So do we not have to account for it in the cost somewhere there ? 
Project Manager: we will just put it in as we will put in as half Or sh we should just put it in as one because the plastic is zero anyway No we do not step on anyones toes special colour do we need that ? 
Marketing: Might do if we go for some of the more exotic aubergines and such like colours 
Industrial Designer: the pushbuttons one and LC display one 
User Interface: I think we could change the battery also Instead of going for kinetic how about going for a standard battery 
Marketing: Has that not made any d if you click off that square now has that not made any difference ? 
Project Manager: Has that not gone up ? 
Marketing: Is it oh it is brought it slightly down 
Project Manager: Oh no it was seven five it is changed not a lot 
Marketing: So is is uncurved completely and just actually making the rubber case the curved thing is that going to make a difference ? Oh it is not made any difference has it ? It is gone up again 
Project Manager: Oh it is not calculated it 
Industrial Designer: No no you have got to click off to calculate it again 
Marketing: It is brought it down slightly 
Project Manager: It is not a lot though 
User Interface: I do not think so 
Industrial Designer: C it might you might you might be assuming that that is in Euros It could be in Dollars And then it would be fine because the exchange range would make it about twelve 
Project Manager: We have not been dealin we have not been dealing with dollars though 
Marketing: Is there anything on the menu 
User Interface: Ri I think it is in Euro 
Project Manager: so the highest we have got is the electronics here and the interface 
Marketing: If we tr If we moved away from our much loved idea of a kinetic battery and just went with the standard batteries would that make a huge difference ? 
User Interface: And going to a regular bat 
Industrial Designer: the standard it it would make one difference The biggest one would be taking away if you took away 
User Interface: What I feel is customers never said anything about the battery It is internal nobody looks into the battery But shape and colours that is something we should not comprimi 
Marketing: And people are used to buying batteries 
Industrial Designer: If if you take away the voice 
Marketing: they are not going to say I am not getting this because I have got to buy a battery for a remote control 
Industrial Designer: I I do I do not like to say it but if you take away the voice recognition then you have got it 
User Interface: Where is that special form ? Mm mm mm 
Marketing: Should we see what difference it makes ? 
Project Manager: where is the voice recognition ? 
Industrial Designer: No because it is samples sens sample speaker If you took away that that will make it twelve point three five 
Project Manager: Well the kinetic is three If we change it to the battery it is that is minus three 
Industrial Designer: They n n but you p minus three plus two 
Project Manager: Oh right I keep seeing zero We can do it some other way we can do it does not have to be voice recognition We could do the voice recognition for you know business class or something you know like an upgraded version You could choose to have that or not 
Industrial Designer: But they but I mean in I do not see why we have to sell it for twenty five Euros now because they w they were saying they were quite willing to pay more for better product 
Marketing: But we are still working to head o 
Project Manager: So should we just change the design specification then ? 
Marketing: We can put in our recommendations If we if we are working to head office specifications as this is what this project teams working for we can put in our recommendations for what we have we have found and what we the consensus that we have come to as a result of the meetings 
Industrial Designer: We c we could s 
Marketing: But we need to work to that specification to start with And I think the voice recognition sounds wonderful but our object is so distinctive that that in itself is going to make it easier to locate as a f you know in a first instance as you say we can offer the voice recognition initially to business class customers 
Project Manager: we can make the price fit and then say if we would had our budget we would have had this 
Industrial Designer: And then say we recommend 
Project Manager: because it also sets it apart from the crowd 
Marketing: Because we have done all the background work to go for that if they want it 
Project Manager: They like their gadgets they like something that is completely different It is s something completely different associated with your company 
Marketing: So if we take voice recognition out 
Industrial Designer: That will do it Twelve point three five 
User Interface: we are close to the budget 
Industrial Designer: Is it twelve point fif was it twelve point fifty ? 
Project Manager: It is two point five No it is twelve point two five 
Marketing: Are you sure ? Sorry not meaning to doubt your words there 
Project Manager: well two twelve point two five times two is twenty five 
Marketing: Right Are they really going to quibble about ten P ? Or point zero one of a Euro ? 
User Interface: It is twelve point five maybe then 
Marketing: Which is less than ten P 
User Interface: I do not know what it said fifty percent of the cost So half of the price would be 
Project Manager: I think the agenda one was where the price was was not it ? No 
User Interface: I think it is the first one 
Marketing: That is todays kick off meeting Mm I thought that is what it was 
User Interface: So we are under the budget","The team calculated the cost of the remote control in the Euro. The team included one regular chip, one kinetic cell, one double-curved bottom, one push button, one LCD screen, as well as rubber and plastic materials. The team decided to recommend voice recognition to business customers. Once the budget increased, voice recognition would be incorporated. Overall, the present cost was 12.5 Euros and was under the budget."
"User Interface: I think we could change the battery also Instead of going for kinetic how about going for a standard battery 
Marketing: Has that not made any d if you click off that square now has that not made any difference ? 
Project Manager: Has that not gone up ? 
Marketing: Is it oh it is brought it slightly down 
Project Manager: Oh no it was seven five it is changed not a lot 
Marketing: So is is uncurved completely and just actually making the rubber case the curved thing is that going to make a difference ? Oh it is not made any difference has it ? It is gone up again 
Project Manager: Oh it is not calculated it 
Industrial Designer: No no you have got to click off to calculate it again 
Marketing: It is brought it down slightly","User Interface recommended the standard batteries to replace the kinetic batteries and lower the cost. Marketing was promised by User Interface that the change in battery type would not make any big difference in shape and colours. However, Marketing was still uncertain about the replacement. User Interface further explained that users were used to paying little attention to batteries which were installed internally."
"Industrial Designer: I I do I do not like to say it but if you take away the voice recognition then you have got it 
User Interface: Where is that special form ? Mm mm mm 
Marketing: Should we see what difference it makes ? 
Project Manager: where is the voice recognition ? 
Industrial Designer: No because it is samples sens sample speaker If you took away that that will make it twelve point three five 
Project Manager: Well the kinetic is three If we change it to the battery it is that is minus three 
Industrial Designer: They n n but you p minus three plus two 
Project Manager: Oh right I keep seeing zero We can do it some other way we can do it does not have to be voice recognition We could do the voice recognition for you know business class or something you know like an upgraded version You could choose to have that or not 
Industrial Designer: But they but I mean in I do not see why we have to sell it for twenty five Euros now because they w they were saying they were quite willing to pay more for better product 
Marketing: But we are still working to head o 
Project Manager: So should we just change the design specification then ? 
Marketing: We can put in our recommendations If we if we are working to head office specifications as this is what this project teams working for we can put in our recommendations for what we have we have found and what we the consensus that we have come to as a result of the meetings 
Industrial Designer: We c we could s 
Marketing: But we need to work to that specification to start with And I think the voice recognition sounds wonderful but our object is so distinctive that that in itself is going to make it easier to locate as a f you know in a first instance as you say we can offer the voice recognition initially to business class customers 
Project Manager: we can make the price fit and then say if we would had our budget we would have had this 
Industrial Designer: And then say we recommend 
Project Manager: because it also sets it apart from the crowd 
Marketing: Because we have done all the background work to go for that if they want it 
Project Manager: They like their gadgets they like something that is completely different It is s something completely different associated with your company","Industrial Designer implicated that if the kinetic batteries were replaced by the standard batteries, the voice recognition would have to be taken away as well. Project Manager, therefore, made a compromise that the team might provide the voice recognition in an upgraded version for the business class who expected high office specifications."
"Lynne Neagle AM: thank you We have got some questions now on funding from Siân Gwenllian 
Sian Gwenllian AM: May I begin maybe with a question generally speaking— ? We are all aware of the funding issues and the challenges of funding that face schools in general So can this lead to more exclusions because additional learning needs have been hit in light of these challenges and then that the sideeffects of that creates more exclusions ? 
Sharon Davies: In particular now with the new Act coming into force that is going to place more pressure on the system In Torfaen we know that we have schools that are looking at their funding—they are behind and they have to make these hard choices And sometimes they have to look at every aspect within the school in terms of their learners then and that does place additional pressure on the schools 
Sian Gwenllian AM: Is the additional learning needs sector being adversely affected worse than— ? 
Sharon Davies: I am not sure whether it is being worse affected but certainly there is pressure in particular with the new Act coming in and that is going to place more pressure on the system 
Sian Gwenllian AM: But maybe we need to spend more in light of the new Act ? 
Sian Hughes: What is your experience then ? 
Nick Williams: The same really But just sometimes the Government does not think about the staff in the pupil referral units because we have gone back to the Government to tell them Right you have provided money to school staff but what about staff that need training—perhaps more than staff in the school sector ? And in fairness they have addressed that but perhaps it is not at the forefront of their minds when they are thinking of providing funding to the schools So it is a little bit of an afterthought But this will be needed in the future certainly 
Sian Gwenllian AM: And maybe I can ask the WLGA : are the difficulties that can arise between the money that is kept back by local authorities and the funding that goes directly to schools—can that therefore affect the kind of provision that is happening from authority to authority ? 
David Hopkins: Yes sure The delegation levels are already very high in most authority areas and we have got agreements in place with the Government to make sure that more money or as much money as possible is devolved to schools So I do not think that is a direct factor I think the factors that really affect exclusions which is where I think the question came from : you have got the very narrow measure at the end of key stage 4 attainment which I think has put pressure on some schools certainly and headteachers have felt that—sometimes excluded or otherwise put into another school as a consequence which is regrettable but that is what is happened And on the additional learning needs side whilst the Minister has currently made some more money available if we look at experiences that have happened in England in particular because there are direct parallels there with legislation we know from those experiences that ALN funding has become increasingly under pressure—there have been big issues around tribunals to the point where local authorities at one point almost gave up going to tribunals because they were losing them time and time again So there are financial pressures there but I do not think the levels of delegation have any impact on that 
Sian Gwenllian AM: But just the pressures coming in with the new Act et cetera could mean more expulsions 
David Hopkins: It should not but it could It is difficult to know how headteachers and governing bodies will react If they are under pressure financially or in terms of performance measures they will react in a particular way Culturally we have got to get to the point I think particularly with the new curriculum coming in where we say Look forget the narrow measures that you are being judged by We are trying to agree with partners including Estyn and the Welsh Government a broader range of measures That in a sense may provide opportunities for schools and local authorities to look more constructively at this whole area So that is one area but you are right I think the ALN legislation will put pressures on not just local authorities and schools but also on the post16 sector because we are talking now about a wider age range—doing up to 25 as well So we have got a host of issues I think there to consider and work our way through 
Sian Gwenllian AM: And is the fact that there is variation from term to term from week to week sometimes in the level of provision that a school is going to have to provide for trying to retain those pupils in mainstream schools—is the fact that there is so much variation creating a specific challenge and maybe that that leads to more exclusions ? 
Sharon Davies: As you say because it changes it is difficult then to plan ahead and from year to year and also as you have said within the term Perhaps you have provision for more learners coming in or moving and then that causes the pressure within the system then because you have not planned for them and therefore there is no spare funding there to draw on 
Nick Williams: Also in fairness to PRUs we have been trying to work on the fact that if children move out of school the funding follows them We do not want a lag in the system because they have to meet the challenge of the pupils but the money is still in the schools because it is once a year that they have that funding 
Lynne Neagle AM: thank you We have got some questions now from Janet FinchSaunders","The committee admitted that the funding issues brought more pressure on schools, especially after the new Act, for they would have to spend more in the light of it. It was pointed out that the government had not noticed the staff in the PRU, who required training. The committee was trying to communicate with Estyn and the Welsh Government for a broader range of measures to provide opportunities for schools and local authorities."
"David Hopkins: Yes sure The delegation levels are already very high in most authority areas and we have got agreements in place with the Government to make sure that more money or as much money as possible is devolved to schools So I do not think that is a direct factor I think the factors that really affect exclusions which is where I think the question came from : you have got the very narrow measure at the end of key stage 4 attainment which I think has put pressure on some schools certainly and headteachers have felt that—sometimes excluded or otherwise put into another school as a consequence which is regrettable but that is what is happened And on the additional learning needs side whilst the Minister has currently made some more money available if we look at experiences that have happened in England in particular because there are direct parallels there with legislation we know from those experiences that ALN funding has become increasingly under pressure—there have been big issues around tribunals to the point where local authorities at one point almost gave up going to tribunals because they were losing them time and time again So there are financial pressures there but I do not think the levels of delegation have any impact on that 
Sian Gwenllian AM: But just the pressures coming in with the new Act et cetera could mean more expulsions 
David Hopkins: It should not but it could It is difficult to know how headteachers and governing bodies will react If they are under pressure financially or in terms of performance measures they will react in a particular way Culturally we have got to get to the point I think particularly with the new curriculum coming in where we say Look forget the narrow measures that you are being judged by We are trying to agree with partners including Estyn and the Welsh Government a broader range of measures That in a sense may provide opportunities for schools and local authorities to look more constructively at this whole area So that is one area but you are right I think the ALN legislation will put pressures on not just local authorities and schools but also on the post16 sector because we are talking now about a wider age range—doing up to 25 as well So we have got a host of issues I think there to consider and work our way through","David Hopkins agreed with Sharon Davies that the new Act would exert more pressure on schools. However, he denied that the levels of the delegation would have any impact. Meanwhile, he suggested that it would be better for the schools' headmasters and local authorities to look at the new Act more constructively, for it would be beneficial for the post-16 sector."
David Hopkins: Yes sure The delegation levels are already very high in most authority areas and we have got agreements in place with the Government to make sure that more money or as much money as possible is devolved to schools So I do not think that is a direct factor I think the factors that really affect exclusions which is where I think the question came from : you have got the very narrow measure at the end of key stage 4 attainment which I think has put pressure on some schools certainly and headteachers have felt that—sometimes excluded or otherwise put into another school as a consequence which is regrettable but that is what is happened And on the additional learning needs side whilst the Minister has currently made some more money available if we look at experiences that have happened in England in particular because there are direct parallels there with legislation we know from those experiences that ALN funding has become increasingly under pressure—there have been big issues around tribunals to the point where local authorities at one point almost gave up going to tribunals because they were losing them time and time again So there are financial pressures there but I do not think the levels of delegation have any impact on that,"David Hopkins did not think that the delegation levels were not high enough in most authority areas. Instead, he thought they had got agreements with the government to make sure that enough money was devolved to school. The true decisive factor was the narrow measure at the end of Stage 4 that drove the headmasters to exclude students or put them into another school."
"Janet Finch-Saunders AM: Thank you Chair What more can be done and by whom to support collaborative working between schools PRUs and local authorities to ensure that there is a continuum of provision and support for learners ? 
Nick Williams: Well one of the things I think that has improved a lot is the networking within the PRU sector We meet on a regular basis and that is nationally And the EOTAS group meets regionally as well So there is definitely a better sharing of practice We put on some very very good conferences as one form of professional learning But it is also important— And we are talking about professional learning for any teacher or provider or it is sometimes the more informal training they receive by making visits joint visits to provision and also using the expertise that we do have within the sector to work more closely with our schools and vice versa particularly around the curriculum And I think this is the opportunity the new curriculum provides providing our staff have the funding to do that and the opportunities we need to be creating around that as well But in the past there might well have been some staff who perhaps had not had those school experiences and vice versa 
Janet Finch-Saunders AM: Can I just ask you about transition arrangements because I know some of the issues that have arisen in my own constituency is when a pupil is in a PRU and then trying to get back into mainstream education ? It is not a clear sort of going from one to the other—sometimes a child can find themselves at home because they are not able to get back into the school setting the main school setting How are you addressing that ? 
Nick Williams: Well again I can only speak for ourselves We have had a big investment of time and there will be money and through band B we are building a brandnew PRU provision in Swansea which will be open in January 2021 So we have recognised that so that we have our staff working very closely with the schools There is an integration through a parttime timetable back into school and we continue to support them during that process But then when they are back in school that support does not stop—that support continues and then there is a managed reduction in that support And that is proven very successful 
Janet Finch-Saunders AM: It sounds to me very— Yes good— 
Nick Williams: But I will be honest with you the more challenging your learners are the ones who are coming to the end of their statutory education your key stage 4 It is far far more difficult when they are 15 16 to get them back into mainstream So then you are looking more at how you transit then into further education and colleges and so on 
Janet Finch-Saunders AM: Yes Thank you In your view— 
Lynne Neagle AM: Just before we move on have you got anything to add Sharon in terms of— ? Because obviously we have had the Swansea perspective I mean how effective are Torfaen at reintegrating young people into mainstream education ? 
Sharon Davies: As Nick said it does get more difficult at key stage 4 and it is working then with— It comes back to that teamaroundthefamily approach to ensure what is needed for that learner to go back into school what can the school provide It is looking at the whole package of support then that surrounds not just the learner but the family whether it is transport—it is looking at the whole agenda then to ensure that everything is in place for that learner to go back to school where it is possible 
David Hopkins: I think Chair at least one authority is looking at how they can best retain all pupils in the school setting but it is early days yet for looking at that I mean that is an ideal obviously but it does mean looking at your funding constructively and carefully and it brings— The principle is fine but it does bring a host of other issues with it if you see what I mean But it is certainly a model worth looking at It is been tried elsewhere and we keep an eye on that but we do not really know what the outcomes have been long term with that 
Lynne Neagle AM: And which authority is that ? 
David Hopkins: I do not think I am allowed to say at this point 
Lynne Neagle AM: Oh And where is it being tried elsewhere ? In England is it ? 
Sharon Davies: A few years ago I used to be a primary headteacher in England so we were looking at different models then at various conferences and I believe Oxford as a local authority—they had a PRU and they had discussions with their secondary schools then whether to get rid of the PRU as such and give the money back into schools But they looked at a partnership within the schools then to say you can have the money but there is got to be terms of reference—not quite a service level agreement but the schools worked together as a partnership then so that they could not keep moving the children around the learners around It is looking at how well that worked It started off really well but that was a few years ago so I do not know whether it is continued now But that was a model that at the time that local authority looked at to get more money into schools and to get schools then to have that responsibility—that they did not offload the learners elsewhere 
Nick Williams: Yes sorry We do something similar in Swansea We have operated this now for almost three years where we devolve—the word is devolve as opposed to delegate—the money to secondary schools to try and give them some extra resource to manage the process and they have to produce an action plan which we monitor about how they are using that funding But obviously we recognise that—and it is back to your original question the first question—we still have learners unfortunately despite pretty effective support and provision in nearly all our schools because of the very very challenging behaviour we are experiencing who do need additional and bespoke support which in fairness the school can not provide So it is a mixed economy if you like in Swansea","There had been improvements in the networking within the PRU, for they had national meetings on a regular basis, which could lead to a better sharing of practice. The PRU was planning to provide teachers with professional training. On the transition arrangement, the PRU was building a brand new provision in Swansea. The PRU would support students through a part-time timetable back into school. Besides, the support would not stop as soon as the students returned to school; the reduction of support would be managed."
"Nick Williams: But I will be honest with you the more challenging your learners are the ones who are coming to the end of their statutory education your key stage 4 It is far far more difficult when they are 15 16 to get them back into mainstream So then you are looking more at how you transit then into further education and colleges and so on 
Janet Finch-Saunders AM: Yes Thank you In your view— 
Lynne Neagle AM: Just before we move on have you got anything to add Sharon in terms of— ? Because obviously we have had the Swansea perspective I mean how effective are Torfaen at reintegrating young people into mainstream education ? 
Sharon Davies: As Nick said it does get more difficult at key stage 4 and it is working then with— It comes back to that teamaroundthefamily approach to ensure what is needed for that learner to go back into school what can the school provide It is looking at the whole package of support then that surrounds not just the learner but the family whether it is transport—it is looking at the whole agenda then to ensure that everything is in place for that learner to go back to school where it is possible","The students coming to the end of their statutory education were facing the biggest challenge, for it would be far more difficult for them to go back into the mainstream education process when they turned 15 or 16, not to mention the transition into further education, such as colleges."
Sharon Davies: As Nick said it does get more difficult at key stage 4 and it is working then with— It comes back to that teamaroundthefamily approach to ensure what is needed for that learner to go back into school what can the school provide It is looking at the whole package of support then that surrounds not just the learner but the family whether it is transport—it is looking at the whole agenda then to ensure that everything is in place for that learner to go back to school where it is possible,"Sharon Davies recommended the team-around-the-family approach to ensure what was needed for learners to go back into school, as well as what the school could provide. She pointed out the importance of the whole package of support, which not only surrounded the learners but also their families. In addition, she gave an example of the PRU in Oxford who built the partnership between the school and the PRU student to demonstrate the responsibility of schools and the significance of school participation."
"Janet Finch-Saunders AM: Thank you So in your view though what are the reasons for the delays that some children experience in accessing EOTAS provision ? What ? Sorry I missed that 
Nick Williams: Sorry Capacity : we just have not got enough spaces in some cases some year groups and so on Obviously given what I have said as well and I am sure it would be the same for all local authorities we have got to have robust systems and panels and so on to make sure that everything possible has been done to meet the needs of the learner in their home provision if you like the home school So there might be a time period when the learners are on a parttime timetable which is not ideal I accept but again it is working with the families and the youngsters Also for us as well we have reinvigorated our managed move provision and discussion We have somebody who oversees that and works very closely with our secondary schools so that we give almost a second chance to learners Sometimes it works really well sometimes the learner turns around and says Actually I preferred it in my old school So there is a coolingoff period as well I think the learner voice is very important there because— We have got to have a package I think that is quite wide in its offer 
Janet Finch-Saunders AM: What would be the advantages or disadvantages then of local authorities having commissioning frameworks for providers and for EOTAS providers to have approved status ? 
Nick Williams: Obviously we do do that but we are struggling sometimes for additional provision—very important around safeguarding However we do not want to make it too difficult so that we have not got any providers coming forward either So it is a little bit of a balancing act But first and foremost safeguarding is at the forefront of our thinking But I think then we need to perhaps think about how the staff in that sort of additional provision—what sort of training and support they have At the moment that is a struggle for us because we are managing those pressures in our own provision whilst we go out and observe through a provision framework to make sure that the provision is— But to actually offer some additional training is a challenge 
Janet Finch-Saunders AM: thank you To what extent do local authorities know about the level of EOTAS provision that is organised by individual schools whether in an FE college or otherwise off the school site ? 
Nick Williams: I can only speak for Swansea We know as part of that plan that we ask our schools to send in they have to put down where that provision is And obviously as part of the visits as well to the schools by the challenge advisers the school should be monitoring that provision and quality assuring that provision 
Janet Finch-Saunders AM: And how is safeguarding monitored in terms of privately run EOTAS ? Independent 
Nick Williams: The schools would have to make sure that— 
Janet Finch-Saunders AM: But is that happening do you know ? 
Nick Williams: Yes because schools do take safeguarding very very seriously They see the importance of it It is their prime driver in many ways 
Janet Finch-Saunders AM: And is there a role for local authorities in quality assuring monitoring or evaluating the EOTAS provision organised by individual schools ? 
Nick Williams: Yes but a lot of the additional provision is provision we also use in our experience So if it is MTP or something through the college like a mechanics course or something like that we are probably using it ourselves So it is quality assured if you like by two sides 
Sharon Davies: In Torfaen our secondary schools have set out their own TCP—Torfaen curriculum panel—which looks at alternative provision So you have got senior leaders there who attend those meetings The meetings are facilitated and they are currently undergoing a review of the alternate provisions each school is doing because sometimes it is worked in the past but what they are seeing now is that it is not quite working now and it is understanding why Is it due to the complexity of the learners coming through ? Or is it that the providers are not offering what the learners are seeking any more ? So it is looking as well at coming back to that curriculum offer is it the right curriculum offer for those learners ? And the training of the staff do we have the right staff ? It is capacity then It is just quality assuring the provision Just because it is worked in the past—it is about keeping that momentum going 
Janet Finch-Saunders AM: And should local authorities take a greater role in quality assuring individual tuition ? 
Sharon Davies: Can I just ask what you mean by individual tuition ? 
Janet Finch-Saunders AM: I suppose individual tuition in terms of each individual I would assume that means I would not like to think anyone was falling through— 
Lynne Neagle AM: I think the purpose of the question is around home tuition yes 
Janet Finch-Saunders AM: Yes Individual tuition in terms of we would not want any child if they are away from a mainschool setting to slip through the net in terms of tuition or safeguarding even 
Sharon Davies: I suppose the difficulty with home tuition is as a local authority we are restricted on how much access we get into the home 
Janet Finch-Saunders AM: Well I appreciate that and that is the—Inaudible 
Sharon Davies: Therefore it is really difficult then to quality assure because unless the families invite us in there is very little— We are restricted in that respect 
Janet Finch-Saunders AM: What about if they are in a private setting ? 
Nick Williams: If they are following a restricted timetable or whatever because maybe they are school anxious and so on and we are trying to get them into our provision like that the hometuition staff work for us We do not use agency staff for instance to go in and provide a few hours of provision or to go to the local library So for whatever reason their needs at the moment can not be met in a school or in approved provision then the staff who do provide some education or if it is for medical reasons they work for us in the local authority So we are not using— 
Janet Finch-Saunders AM: Is that widespread around Wales ? 
Nick Williams: I do not really know the answer to that I am sorry I can only speak for Swansea 
Sharon Davies: We are very similar to that 
David Hopkins: Historically there has been a general pattern and if you are making a provision you will quality assure it clearly I think your question is probably about other forms of provision and how do you quality assure those And that is more difficult to answer I suspect 
Lynne Neagle AM: What we were driving at was home tuition that is commissioned by the local authority but I think Nick has answered that now really if that is a consistent answer for local authorities Can I just ask before we move on in the WLGA paper you say you are concerned about the potential impact of changes to the registration of pupils who are EOTAS and the implications for the management of datafundingjoint working Can you expand on those concerns for the committee ? 
Nick Williams: I think it is you know— 
Lynne Neagle AM: It was the WLGA paper actually 
David Hopkins: It was a joint paper You go on 
Nick Williams: It is about getting that money following the learner and so on and that shared ownership of the learner that the schools need to keep because we want them reintegrated back into schools—that is the aim of any provision that we put in It is not permanent—except for certain learners that might be the case—so they are still if you like part and parcel of the school I think one of your other colleagues asked about the offrolling if you like—another term that is used—of students when they get to GCSEs so they do not count in schools data We are trying to very much move away from that through the messages that we all give our schools The messages that governors and headteachers then give to their staff So : They are our learners They are the most vulnerable learners we have got And for the individuals for the families and for society if we can not support these learners—we know the links then to crime and the cost to us as a society as well So it is in all our interests to do the very best for these learners",One of the advantages was that youngsters' voice could be heard in time if they showed the willingness to go back into school; the framework offered the excluded learners a cooling-off period. The disadvantage was mainly some individual schools' lack of capacity to organize and offer additional training. Monitor and evaluation systems of the EOTAS provision were supposed to be set up to ensure the education quality.
"Janet Finch-Saunders AM: And should local authorities take a greater role in quality assuring individual tuition ? 
Sharon Davies: Can I just ask what you mean by individual tuition ? 
Janet Finch-Saunders AM: I suppose individual tuition in terms of each individual I would assume that means I would not like to think anyone was falling through— 
Lynne Neagle AM: I think the purpose of the question is around home tuition yes 
Janet Finch-Saunders AM: Yes Individual tuition in terms of we would not want any child if they are away from a mainschool setting to slip through the net in terms of tuition or safeguarding even 
Sharon Davies: I suppose the difficulty with home tuition is as a local authority we are restricted on how much access we get into the home 
Janet Finch-Saunders AM: Well I appreciate that and that is the—Inaudible 
Sharon Davies: Therefore it is really difficult then to quality assure because unless the families invite us in there is very little— We are restricted in that respect","Sharon Davies expressed her strong objection to the exclusions caused by tuition or safeguarding. She pointed out that the difficulty with home tuition was the limited access the local authority could get into the families. The quality of home tuition was difficult to assure, unless the families invited them there, which was a really rare situation. All in all, the role of local authorities was restricted in this aspect."
"Janet Finch-Saunders AM: What about if they are in a private setting ? 
Nick Williams: If they are following a restricted timetable or whatever because maybe they are school anxious and so on and we are trying to get them into our provision like that the hometuition staff work for us We do not use agency staff for instance to go in and provide a few hours of provision or to go to the local library So for whatever reason their needs at the moment can not be met in a school or in approved provision then the staff who do provide some education or if it is for medical reasons they work for us in the local authority So we are not using— 
Janet Finch-Saunders AM: Is that widespread around Wales ? 
Nick Williams: I do not really know the answer to that I am sorry I can only speak for Swansea 
Sharon Davies: We are very similar to that 
David Hopkins: Historically there has been a general pattern and if you are making a provision you will quality assure it clearly I think your question is probably about other forms of provision and how do you quality assure those And that is more difficult to answer I suspect","The intuition in a private setting was supposed to follow a restricted timetable, for no matter for what reason the students' need cannot be met at school, the PRU staff ought to provide them with some education. Besides, the education provided should be different from the education provided by agency staff, who merely offered a few hours' provision or the service offered by local libraries."
"Lynne Neagle AM: You will not get any arguments from us on that Siân Gwenllian has got some questions on the curriculum 
Sian Gwenllian AM: Yes I just want to discuss a little about the curriculum as it stands and thinking about transferring to a new curriculum of course What are the challenges ? I will begin with the WLGA in general and ask you in both your areas what are the challenges to ensure that EOTAS learners have access to a broad and balanced curriculum and that there are learning opportunities that are appropriate for them ? What are the challenges associated with that ? 
David Hopkins: In general terms— You differentiate there between EOTAS and PRUs PRUs : clearly we know that they are following a set curriculum they are inspected they are under the control of the local authorities So we are happy and content that that is moving along and that the balance is there Where home tuition is provided through the local authority as has been discussed again there should be safeguards there to make sure that that quality assurance takes into account what the pupil is receiving You can not always guarantee what then happens in the home As you say particular things happen there and they may not get that But that is a matter the authority has got to be aware of and tackle It is more difficult where I suspect it is being provided by a third party that is been commissioned The commissioning arrangements should ask for those things to be put into place it is all about the monitoring then But that is a very general broadbrush answer I could not give you a definitive one of what is happening across Wales My colleagues can probably tell you what is happening in their localities and that would be helpful But in general : PRUs yes we would be satisfied home tuition that is commissioned and managed through the local authority yes we would be satisfied other areas we would not be able to give a definitive answer on is my guess 
Sian Gwenllian AM: And does that worry you ? 
David Hopkins: Of course it is a concern If you can not guarantee quality in any shape or form for a young person it is a concern 
Nick Williams: In the region we do collaborate with each other in terms of staff training Certainly they also work with school staff as well So the developments are quite positive currently but there is work to do I agree 
Sian Gwenllian AM: In terms of the how curriculum is at present are you happy that it is being delivered ? 
Nick Williams: To be honest we are— To be honest they are broad and balanced They have to be broad and balanced currently But there is working together now in terms of the new curriculum and using the opportunity that exists now to collaborate with school staff as well 
Sharon Davies: Collaboration I think is the answer between the PRUs and the schools Collaborate and have joint working to ensure that the learners have what they need 
Sian Gwenllian AM: Yes I can see how collaborative working with the units can work—because they are under your control—the problem is the other parts of the system in a way 
Nick Williams: They are not with other people all the time they just go for something So they would still have literacy and numeracy and Welsh—that would still be provided in the PRU So they are not out all the time 
Sian Gwenllian AM: No it is beyond the PRUs I am talking about If a pupil is in a PRU you are telling me that they have the curriculum But for those who are in homes or in private provision perhaps who are not in your experience— Maybe this morning we are getting a picture of the best practice and we are not going under the surface to where things are not as good in some areas Do you agree that there is that inconsistency ? What we are hearing about now are the best elements 
Nick Williams: Consistency is developing across Wales Yes and in terms of collaboration I am not saying that it is perfect but it is developing 
Lynne Neagle AM: Thank you Siân Questions now from Dawn Bowden 
Dawn Bowden AM: Thank you Chair It is really around support It follows on a little bit from what Siân was saying Can I also just refer back to the point that David was making earlier on about ALN and the extent to which ALN support is available to learners in EOTAS ? The information that we have had is that it is difficult enough in mainstream schools but in an EOTAS setting it is particularly challenging So how can that be improved ? What can we do to address that ? The reason I am saying that is there are particular needs of learners in an EOTAS setting—that is why they are there quite often So it is almost more important that that ALN provision follows them through 
David Hopkins: If a child has additional needs of course they should be met whatever the setting But I take your point There is a possibility that— Again going back to the previous question we would know within say a PRU or any local authority commissioned or delivered tuition—whatever form that took—then those needs definitely should be being met I can not tell you hand on heart whether they all are or not—I do not know—but they should be Once you get out of that very tightly regulated part of the system then again if a child has a particular need of course that need should be met but it becomes increasingly difficult So I think there possibly is an issue there but I do not know whether my colleagues have a greater understanding of that But there certainly may well be an issue there 
Dawn Bowden AM: There is a disconnect between what should be happening and what actually is happening is not there ? Even in some local authority PRUs where we expect all of this to be happening we know that it is not we know that the full curriculum is not being provided either The basic numeracy literacy and wellbeing stuff is taking place but there is discrepancy of provision even in local authority commissioned EOTAS provision 
David Hopkins: I think there will be variations in provision but I would say that within the local authority maintained sector that provision should be being made If it is not the local authority concerned should be aware of that and should be dealing with that 
Nick Williams: We have probably—Inaudible—in Swansea if you look at the inspections of the provision Going back some years they were not— What you are describing it was true However the most recent inspection is very positive and not that we recognise that there is no work to be done we are not being complacent But to answer your question I think the biggest challenge is the capacity So I suppose that comes down to additional funding because I would like a dedicated educational psychologist spending their time possibly only with our PRU youngsters and EOTAS provision but we have not got the capacity because of the demands on us from the wider system 
Sharon Davies: It is kind of what Nick said about capacity but it is also ensuring the right staff as well because sometimes you may have them but if they move on or retire or whatever there is not a bus load if you like of people with that expertise Because sometimes it takes years to build up on that expertise and therefore it is quite niche and once that person has moved on it is really difficult to start all over again Absolutely It is more than just one person—it is the whole training package that goes around that capacity as well 
Dawn Bowden AM: Yes and I will come back to that in a moment 
Nick Williams: But I think that is something we could do better I think we need to be more— Because that is not just down to money it is making sure that we perhaps offer through our teacher training colleges the opportunity for them to spend some time At the moment a newly qualified teacher can not work in this type of provision which you can argue that is fine they need to perhaps get mainstream first But we need a group of people in the future to fill those gaps So that should be built in to their teacher training and even through their ongoing professional development both ways—staff actually coming out to schools going into our provision and vise versa—because you can also get very isolated if you have worked in PRUs for— You have got very specialist skills but you perhaps need those wider experiences as well So we could be doing more there and I think that is probably the group I chair a discussion we need to have 
Dawn Bowden AM: And on that point actually we did hear from Estyn the point you were making about the staff leaving and there are very small numbers of staff working in that provision There really is not the capacity for them to access professional training Is that your experience ? And if so what can we do about that ? 
Sharon Davies: I think it is limited I think it is getting better as Nick mentioned There are networks now there are conferences It is an improving picture but I think it is limited 
Dawn Bowden AM: Yes So is there any way that local authorities can encourage specialist teachers and educational psychologists to actually share expertise with independent providers of EOTAS ? 
Nick Williams: Yes but again it is a capacity issue because if we take them out of the provision it is difficult for perhaps a supply teacher to come in and manage that class because of the demands So it is not an easy conundrum 
Dawn Bowden AM: No But you are saying really take it back to teacher training and start at that point so that every teacher has at least some basic awareness of dealing with education in that setting I understand that 
Sharon Davies: Or whether there is an opportunity if somebody wants to lead into that more that there is an opportunity to do it that there is an offer there if they want to specialise more into that area But at the minute there is not that option 
Dawn Bowden AM: Can I just take you back to pupil support ? We talked about ALN What about access to mental health services ? What is your experience of EOTAS learners access to mental health support ? 
Nick Williams: Again even in the region there is variation there because we have got three health boards over the footprint of the southwest and mid Wales region So it varies That is my understanding anyway and I think that is similar across Wales Ours has not been great to be honest with you And that is one of the positive steps that health boards have to have a DECLO now—do not ask me I can not remember what the exact abbreviation is—but we have met with the designated education clinical lead officer and I think those partnerships will be strong in the future But it is also us then having a wellbeing strategy and support that is universal So there is counselling and so on to make sure that the learners are going through if you like— Not that we are trying to stop them going through but we are trying to deal with them appropriately at the different stages so that they are not inundated either 
Dawn Bowden AM: Yes of course But is your experience also that a lack of mental health support in mainstream schools could potentially be leading to more learners ending up in an EOTAS provision 
David Hopkins: I was going to say about the question I think there is a general deficit in child and adolescent mental health services for example I am not criticising the services I am just saying the capacity is not there as we would like So I think there is probably a more general issue there that would in turn translate into pupils who have got additional needs whether they are in EOTAS PRU or wherever I suspect—I have not got an evidence base to offer you but there is a very longstanding problem there 
Lynne Neagle AM: Siân you had a supplementary 
Sian Gwenllian AM: Yes Just to return to teacher training and you say that new teachers can not go straight into a unit and maybe more emphasis is needed on that aspect But generally speaking if there is an increase in challenging behaviour are new teachers able— ? They do not have the experience but are they equipped well enough to deal with that ? Because we hear of so many people leaving the profession because of this challenging behaviour and again I wonder if the system has adequately caught up with that And we need—not just in this aspect—but we need to look at the system holistically to be more prepared to deal with challenging behaviour Do you know what I am saying ? 
Nick Williams: It is not just— If people decide not to go into teaching after having training it is not just because of challenging behaviour There is a change now There is more time for students in schools so that helps You need the theory but also the practice—that is important to have somebody who can mentor you in the school and that shows good practice Then there are the policies that the school uses to assure that there is consistency across the whole school 
Sian Gwenllian AM: But if we are facing a situation where there are fewer wanting to go into the profession and we are losing those most experienced people then it creates a great big challenge does not it ? We are looking at something very limited here but we need to look at it in the bigger picture of what is happening Would you agree with that ? 
Lynne Neagle AM: Sharon the CAMHS inreach project is operational in Gwent but my understanding is that they do not include PRUs Is that right ? 
Sharon Davies: I do not know if that is the— 
Lynne Neagle AM: that is fine that is my understanding I just wanted to ask then the Gwent attachment team has been working with PRUs in Gwent and the committee is familiar with the work of the Gwent attachment team can you just tell us what you think the impact of that has been in terms of support for staff and embedding that awareness of attachment and early trauma in the PRUs ? 
Sharon Davies: I think any form of professional learning it is positive and therefore as we alluded to earlier it is that expertise training for the PRU then and for the staff there It is having a positive impact At the minute I do not know what the overall impact is I think it is early days but it seems to be positive 
Lynne Neagle AM: Thank you Janet I think some of the areas have been covered Is there anything you want to pick up from the— ? 
Janet Finch-Saunders AM: Yes I think the rural aspect—are you aware that there are any issues relating to transport for EOTAS learners particularly in more rural parts or areas of Wales ? 
Nick Williams: Certainly in our region in Powys from north Powys when you are almost in Oswestry down to Ystradgynlais which is not far from me So you have got provision for those types of learners there I think they have got provision in the north and south of the county but you are still talking— 
Janet Finch-Saunders AM: What provision in the north ? 
Nick Williams: I think there is a PRU provision in the north of Powys and one in the south— 
Janet Finch-Saunders AM: Oh sorry north of Powys Oh sorry I thought you meant north Wales Sorry 
Nick Williams: Sorry But even so the distances that those learners are having to travel are huge 
Janet Finch-Saunders AM: Yes I have got a— It is a big issue 
Nick Williams: For myself and I would hazard a guess Torfaen we are relatively compact are not we so it is not such an issue 
Lynne Neagle AM: Has the WLGA got any comment on the transport issue ? 
David Hopkins: I am not aware of issues if I am honest but then again it may be something we have not investigated I am quite happy to look at that",PRU was supposed to collaborate with schools to arrange special curriculums to meet the students' special needs. This not only had something to do with finance but was also related to the recruitment of professional staff. The training for special education ought to be included in the professional training system.
"Dawn Bowden AM: And on that point actually we did hear from Estyn the point you were making about the staff leaving and there are very small numbers of staff working in that provision There really is not the capacity for them to access professional training Is that your experience ? And if so what can we do about that ? 
Sharon Davies: I think it is limited I think it is getting better as Nick mentioned There are networks now there are conferences It is an improving picture but I think it is limited 
Dawn Bowden AM: Yes So is there any way that local authorities can encourage specialist teachers and educational psychologists to actually share expertise with independent providers of EOTAS ? 
Nick Williams: Yes but again it is a capacity issue because if we take them out of the provision it is difficult for perhaps a supply teacher to come in and manage that class because of the demands So it is not an easy conundrum 
Dawn Bowden AM: No But you are saying really take it back to teacher training and start at that point so that every teacher has at least some basic awareness of dealing with education in that setting I understand that 
Sharon Davies: Or whether there is an opportunity if somebody wants to lead into that more that there is an opportunity to do it that there is an offer there if they want to specialise more into that area But at the minute there is not that option","Dawn Bowden pointed out that there were a very small number of staff members working in the provision area, and the capacity for them to access professional training was limited. Sharon Davies agreed and added that though the situation had been bettered by the Internet technology, there was still not much opportunity for the ones who desired to specialize in the area."
"Janet Finch-Saunders AM: Yes I think the rural aspect—are you aware that there are any issues relating to transport for EOTAS learners particularly in more rural parts or areas of Wales ? 
Nick Williams: Certainly in our region in Powys from north Powys when you are almost in Oswestry down to Ystradgynlais which is not far from me So you have got provision for those types of learners there I think they have got provision in the north and south of the county but you are still talking— 
Janet Finch-Saunders AM: What provision in the north ? 
Nick Williams: I think there is a PRU provision in the north of Powys and one in the south— 
Janet Finch-Saunders AM: Oh sorry north of Powys Oh sorry I thought you meant north Wales Sorry 
Nick Williams: Sorry But even so the distances that those learners are having to travel are huge 
Janet Finch-Saunders AM: Yes I have got a— It is a big issue 
Nick Williams: For myself and I would hazard a guess Torfaen we are relatively compact are not we so it is not such an issue 
Lynne Neagle AM: Has the WLGA got any comment on the transport issue ? 
David Hopkins: I am not aware of issues if I am honest but then again it may be something we have not investigated I am quite happy to look at that","There were more issues related to transport for EOTAS learners in the rural areas of Wales. The distance that the learners had to cover was huge, for they had to get a provision in Powys. However, WLGA (Welsh Local Government Association) admitted that this issue had not been investigated yet would be in investigation very soon."
"User Interface: Oh how can I Geez and sli and show Just press it yes Alright well w we we had discussed this already in the fin in the previous discussion the method of the remote control is just the function of remote control is basically to send messages to the television set So that was the main important thing what a remote control should do Then I found two different kind of remote controls the multifunction remote control with many possibilities but the lack of the feeling I already mentioned in the previous discussion And the easeofuse remote control with the less p possibilities but a great feeling in in touching the buttons but My personal preferences were ease of the easy to use remote control because the userfriendliness and it can be more trendy in in user design But your new goal f was for people than less than forty years old So maybe the multifunction can be implemented in in our design But it should b I think it should be a combination but teletext buttons are not in our design So it should take out well eight buttons or so But my in my opinion the the easy to use RC is the best possi possibility for us 
Project Manager: Ruud did you get that ? the important thing here is 
User Interface: And it is also i indeed Ruuds insight in the in the topic what what does the market want ? I I do not know 
Project Manager: w we will s we all 
User Interface: Just for for user desi user friendliness I should choose for the the ease of use remote control",User Interface introduced a remote control easy to use and a multi-functional one and preferred the former as it was more user-friendly. Industrial Designer agreed and proposed that a stick or round button for volume control and channel selection could be used and also suggested that the ten digits could be substituted by voice recognition.
"Project Manager: And and do we want the ten digits ? 
User Interface: The ten digits ? I believe so 
Industrial Designer: Well are are you sure ? 
Marketing: Well if you want to go to channel ninety and you have th that button 
Industrial Designer: I am not so sure but is that so relevant ? Because I do not think but you should shou you should know that If it were so 
User Interface: I would not buy it personally A remote control without the ten digits and I think the most Just elder elder people would would buy it 
Industrial Designer: I can imagine when you are when you have a satellite decoder and and you have well about six hundred channels I can imagine you want this But if you are a regular TV user and you just want to watch the the Dutch television networks well you can you can use about ten buttons That is enough 
Project Manager: But we do have thirteen different Dutch channels 
User Interface: Yep The older people only use five of them 
Industrial Designer: but how how often do you watch all these channels ? 
Marketing: and if if we And if we are targeting at the younger audience they will probably watch more channels than the older people 
Industrial Designer: No you are probably right But I think these ten buttons look a bit dull Do not you think ? 
Project Manager: Well it depends on the on the on the looks on the on the 
Industrial Designer: Well y then there should be should done be done something specific with it 
Project Manager: You c you can d make them very fancy by I mean Nokia they have ten digits on their phones and it still looks very fancy So I am I am I do not agree 
Industrial Designer: so you can experiment by with with shape or with size or with colour that kind of thing 
Marketing: And there are some numbers about speech recognition here that younger people would like it it might be expensive and hard to implement but it would be a solution for 
Industrial Designer: Well maybe it can be combined with the find the remote control So when you add speech recognition to your remote control it is very easy to change the channel That is one thing And it is very easy to find your remote control So maybe that is a possibility but I am afraid it will be a bit costly 
Project Manager: If if we would drop the ten digits but keep the programme and the volume because maybe people do not always want to use their voice 
Marketing: Especially elder people do not like voice recognition So then we should implement such a but 
Project Manager: But we do focus on younger people We d it it is a board decision 
Industrial Designer: Well I I think it should should work it sh we should manage that 
User Interface: we have to i to make a decision between the ten digits or the voice recognition 
Industrial Designer: Yes Well the voice recognition has the main adva has another advantage It is mas it makes it very easy for us to implement the find find the remote control button remote control function So that is that is a big advantage I think There is only one disadvantage by implementing this the power saving power saving will be a bit more difficult So we can expect that there will be a less longer life to the batteries",Industrial Designer thought the ten buttons looked a bit dull so speech recognition could be added to solve this problem. But he was concerned that power saving could be difficult when implementing speech recognition.
"User Interface: Oh how can I Geez and sli and show Just press it yes Alright well w we we had discussed this already in the fin in the previous discussion the method of the remote control is just the function of remote control is basically to send messages to the television set So that was the main important thing what a remote control should do Then I found two different kind of remote controls the multifunction remote control with many possibilities but the lack of the feeling I already mentioned in the previous discussion And the easeofuse remote control with the less p possibilities but a great feeling in in touching the buttons but My personal preferences were ease of the easy to use remote control because the userfriendliness and it can be more trendy in in user design But your new goal f was for people than less than forty years old So maybe the multifunction can be implemented in in our design But it should b I think it should be a combination but teletext buttons are not in our design So it should take out well eight buttons or so But my in my opinion the the easy to use RC is the best possi possibility for us 
Project Manager: Ruud did you get that ? the important thing here is 
User Interface: And it is also i indeed Ruuds insight in the in the topic what what does the market want ? I I do not know 
Project Manager: w we will s we all 
User Interface: Just for for user desi user friendliness I should choose for the the ease of use remote control","User Interface found two kinds of remote controls: the multi-functional one and the one easy to use. He emphasized on user-friendliness, but considering that the target people were less than forty years old, multi-function should also be taken into account."
"Industrial Designer: it is still the right thing well there are some changes in the design requirements so there are some changes in the method also basically all this device has to do is send messages to a TV set And the m most easy way to do this is by sending pulses of infrared light to a TV set Well I th I tried to implement a picture here but it is hardly readable Can you see it ? 
Project Manager: No it is not visible 
Industrial Designer: No ? Well there is a energy source here And basically there it is connected to three things The user interface connected to a chip which is connected to the sender which generates messages using infrared light which are sent to the receiver That is basically the idea And there is a little picture just for your imagination how a device like this should look or can look what have I found Usually these kind of things consist of a battery infrared diode buttons chips and circuit board That is all It is cased together nothing more than that It is almost every piece of equipment every piece of every TV set is controlled infrared There are some exceptions but most of all have infrared controls And the more luxury remote controls have lithium buttons And I think that is what we w 
User Interface: The glow in the dark concept we discussed 
Industrial Designer: yes In the and it is a little more a little bit more fancy also So maybe we should consider that I have a basic scheme of the things which are implemented basically this is all there is There is just one chip There are a few buttons connected the buttons are lit And the whole thing is transmitted by a infrared li diode and there is not a power source here So that is basically the total design of this piece of equipment 
Project Manager: So it is fairly easy 
Industrial Designer: There is nothing more to it It is fairly easy It is been done many times before and I think we should we should c s succeed in in our plan to do this personally I think we should infra use infrared because otherwise our device can not communicate with almost every TV set So I think that should be clear another important point is we really should use energy sparse friendly components there are specially designed energyfriendly components which consume far less power than conventional components And if we want to use a rechargeable design or a energysave design we should really implement them for costeffectiveness we should really use a very lowcost circuit board because most of the production cost are are in this part of the equipment And the money we save on using this we can use for elaborate fancy lighting techniques blinking LEDs and all that kind of fancy stuff I think our users will really will really like that 
User Interface: if we use the LEDs i does it use much more energy or 
Industrial Designer: No they are p f power friendly LEDs also So we can use them So that is no problem 
User Interface: For the same costs it is can be in our 
Industrial Designer: no they are they are a little bit more expensive but by making 
User Interface: Combined with the lowcost circuit board so it is 
Industrial Designer: We can we can make its I think 
Marketing: Well you could only lit the buttons the buttons that are used most So the channel switching 
Project Manager: but but the question is whether two or four buttons makes m makes such a difference in the costs if you already plan to include fancy lightning techniques I guess 
User Interface: I think it is the same as in the cell phone just light in in the device that that shines on all the buttons 
Industrial Designer: Yes Well it is not one light it there are more lights in a in a in a mobile device 
User Interface: but not for each button one LED I think 
Industrial Designer: No no no no That is right that is right So well this should be it have a think about it 
Marketing: Oh mine is already outdated 
Project Manager: we ar we are very curio curious to what the market will feel about such a product So any income is welcome Input 
Marketing: make Well then I am sure the target market is ten million units Of of which we should sell about forty percent to make the five million 
User Interface: Could you step a little bit more to the right ? thank you 
Marketing: But since the other part is forty percent of the market I thought earlier we might want to constrain that portion of the market But since the requirements changed that is not a good idea Well it is this till true of course That they only use ten percent the buttons The buttons to zap are used the about fifteen hundred times when the power button is only used one time And the volume buttons only four times So they are obv obviously the most important buttons And lots of people complained they kin can not find their remote control So we might want to build in a feature to support them Some audio signal Like home phones 
Industrial Designer: Or a find a finding function That is quite a yes 
Project Manager: It it separates our product from others as well 
Marketing: Well I just said that And well this obvious and he also said it 
Project Manager: So that is what the market tells us 
Marketing: that is about it yes 
User Interface: The volume and the zap buttons are the mostly used 
Marketing: Volume they are use a lot But more than all the other buttons So 
User Interface: well it should just have a design The perfect design for those only those buttons And first 
Industrial Designer: Yes Yes we should focus on that I guess Well the technical there I think there are no technical difficulties There is no elaborate technique used in this kind of equipment So I do not think we have any hiccups there So we can fully concentrate on developing a product that is really what the market needs So maybe it is a good idea to think about these buttons and and and a sound signal 
User Interface: the sound signal Just one thing I am just wondering the sound signal from where do you execute th the s sound ? 
Industrial Designer: Yes Th that is a bit of that is a problem 
User Interface: Another device is not a solution 
Project Manager: maybe maybe like clapping in your hands like turning on and off the the the lights 
User Interface: but maybe you will get some new technologies for it 
Industrial Designer: Yes Well there there are some devices who incorporate this technique already there are video sets and they have a special button the find the remote control button You press it and your TV set starts to make a kind of weird sound and your remote controls then start to beep 
Project Manager: Reports rep respend response to it 
Industrial Designer: Yes Yes that is it Yes same thing 
User Interface: But but TVs do not have all buttons 
Industrial Designer: No so we we should use something else 
Project Manager: because we do not have a a a a a home 
User Interface: But I believe you will have an 
Industrial Designer: We do not control the TV set so well 
Marketing: And even if the TV set would have such a button you would have to walk to your TV 
Industrial Designer: Yes m yes S and we b we want to make so it is is easy as possible for our customers so we should think about 
Project Manager: So what about the clapping technique ? because you se 
User Interface: I am convinced Sebastian will find one solution for us 
Industrial Designer: It is quite complicated Well it is quite complicated Because how can you separate the clapping sound from other sounds 
Project Manager: Well you see it a lot in in light lightning 
Industrial Designer: Yes yes Well basically the characteristics the characteristics of clapping is just an increase in the volume the amplitude of the sound which is generated a few times within a certain period of time But there are many other sounds which are exactly the same from the point of view from a remote control 
Marketing: So if if you would be watching a movie it would constantly beep 
User Interface: But we can have just a home stat f a base station next to the TV Just a little antenna or something 
Industrial Designer: so we do not want that Maybe we can Something like that 
User Interface: Well if you lost th 
Industrial Designer: is there not something f something more easily 
User Interface: I do not think people would bother walking to the TV and press that button because they lost the their remote 
Industrial Designer: Well I do not think No and y the the most important thing for people is that there is a central point to which they can go and b perform a a some kind of And then the remote control reports itself so w we should use have we should use something like that You do not want another device which can be everywhere in the house which you have to find first before you can find your remote control 
User Interface: just a base station next to the TV is the best possibility 
Industrial Designer: Yes something like that But that will be very costly I think 
Project Manager: m maybe w we we do agree on on the thing that the remote should have such a function if it is possible within the costs and all that kind of things 
Industrial Designer: So that is not a good idea 
Project Manager: maybe Sebastian should have a detailed look later on and come up with a solution because that is his his field of expertise 
Industrial Designer: Yes Yes But before I do that I w I want to warn you that by implementing this kind of a function the technical design will become more complicated and it will become more costly also Because there will be additional components which which will be used And there are some implepe imp 
User Interface: And do we even prefer the sound above the the LEDs the lightning function ? 
Industrial Designer: Well I I think so because when you have a p newspaper over your remote control you can not see it 
User Interface: It is a unique item 
Project Manager: it is a distinction in the market 
User Interface: It will be an a unique feature of our remote control 
Project Manager: It is a different exactly It is an uni an unique feature and I think it is worth looking and and probably more i interesting than than the lights","Industrial Designer introduced how the remote control worked and supposed that they should use infrared so that the remote control could communicate with most TV sets. He also proposed to use energy-friendly components and save the cost of circuit boards to develop elaborate lighting techniques. In order to prevent people from losing the remote control, the team decided to implement an audio signal. In terms of energy source, the team preferred to have a cradle so that the remote control could be recharged."
"Marketing: Well it is this till true of course That they only use ten percent the buttons The buttons to zap are used the about fifteen hundred times when the power button is only used one time And the volume buttons only four times So they are obv obviously the most important buttons And lots of people complained they kin can not find their remote control So we might want to build in a feature to support them Some audio signal Like home phones 
Industrial Designer: Or a find a finding function That is quite a yes 
Project Manager: It it separates our product from others as well 
Marketing: Well I just said that And well this obvious and he also said it 
Project Manager: So that is what the market tells us 
Marketing: that is about it yes 
User Interface: The volume and the zap buttons are the mostly used 
Marketing: Volume they are use a lot But more than all the other buttons So 
User Interface: well it should just have a design The perfect design for those only those buttons And first 
Industrial Designer: Yes Yes we should focus on that I guess Well the technical there I think there are no technical difficulties There is no elaborate technique used in this kind of equipment So I do not think we have any hiccups there So we can fully concentrate on developing a product that is really what the market needs So maybe it is a good idea to think about these buttons and and and a sound signal 
User Interface: the sound signal Just one thing I am just wondering the sound signal from where do you execute th the s sound ? 
Industrial Designer: Yes Th that is a bit of that is a problem 
User Interface: Another device is not a solution 
Project Manager: maybe maybe like clapping in your hands like turning on and off the the the lights 
User Interface: but maybe you will get some new technologies for it 
Industrial Designer: Yes Well there there are some devices who incorporate this technique already there are video sets and they have a special button the find the remote control button You press it and your TV set starts to make a kind of weird sound and your remote controls then start to beep 
Project Manager: Reports rep respend response to it 
Industrial Designer: Yes Yes that is it Yes same thing 
User Interface: But but TVs do not have all buttons 
Industrial Designer: No so we we should use something else 
Project Manager: because we do not have a a a a a home 
User Interface: But I believe you will have an 
Industrial Designer: We do not control the TV set so well 
Marketing: And even if the TV set would have such a button you would have to walk to your TV 
Industrial Designer: Yes m yes S and we b we want to make so it is is easy as possible for our customers so we should think about 
Project Manager: So what about the clapping technique ? because you se 
User Interface: I am convinced Sebastian will find one solution for us 
Industrial Designer: It is quite complicated Well it is quite complicated Because how can you separate the clapping sound from other sounds 
Project Manager: Well you see it a lot in in light lightning 
Industrial Designer: Yes yes Well basically the characteristics the characteristics of clapping is just an increase in the volume the amplitude of the sound which is generated a few times within a certain period of time But there are many other sounds which are exactly the same from the point of view from a remote control 
Marketing: So if if you would be watching a movie it would constantly beep 
User Interface: But we can have just a home stat f a base station next to the TV Just a little antenna or something 
Industrial Designer: so we do not want that Maybe we can Something like that 
User Interface: Well if you lost th 
Industrial Designer: is there not something f something more easily 
User Interface: I do not think people would bother walking to the TV and press that button because they lost the their remote 
Industrial Designer: Well I do not think No and y the the most important thing for people is that there is a central point to which they can go and b perform a a some kind of And then the remote control reports itself so w we should use have we should use something like that You do not want another device which can be everywhere in the house which you have to find first before you can find your remote control 
User Interface: just a base station next to the TV is the best possibility 
Industrial Designer: Yes something like that But that will be very costly I think 
Project Manager: m maybe w we we do agree on on the thing that the remote should have such a function if it is possible within the costs and all that kind of things 
Industrial Designer: So that is not a good idea 
Project Manager: maybe Sebastian should have a detailed look later on and come up with a solution because that is his his field of expertise 
Industrial Designer: Yes Yes But before I do that I w I want to warn you that by implementing this kind of a function the technical design will become more complicated and it will become more costly also Because there will be additional components which which will be used And there are some implepe imp 
User Interface: And do we even prefer the sound above the the LEDs the lightning function ? 
Industrial Designer: Well I I think so because when you have a p newspaper over your remote control you can not see it 
User Interface: It is a unique item 
Project Manager: it is a distinction in the market 
User Interface: It will be an a unique feature of our remote control 
Project Manager: It is a different exactly It is an uni an unique feature and I think it is worth looking and and probably more i interesting than than the lights","User Interface proposed that a base station next to the TV could be a solution, but Industrial Designer pointed out that this could be technically complicated and would cost a lot. So the team eventually adopted Marketing's advice to implement an audio signal."
"Industrial Designer: But maybe can we we can think something smart about it There are some hybrid hybrid devices which incorporate a solar panel and rechargeable batteries So when you just leave the device in a in a light room it charges itself 
Project Manager: But But but can we manage it bu for the costs ? 
Industrial Designer: You have to do nothing for it 
Project Manager: Because it seems like a very 
Marketing: And if we if we could inc include a c a cradle in which it could recharge then there would not be a big problem 
Industrial Designer: I will have to find that out Yes So No that is very cheap 
Project Manager: Is a cradle very cheap ? 
Industrial Designer: It is Oh it is very cheap That is no problem It is just a a case with two metal contacts 
Project Manager: I know b but there should be an adapter as well 
Industrial Designer: It is Yes but they are they are mass production So it will cost us p practically nothing","Industrial Designer proposed to incorporate a solar panel and rechargeable batteries, but Project Manager agreed more with Marketing's proposal to include a cradle."
"Industrial Designer: well So our design looks something like this This being the wheel that you use to change channels or volume or whatever This is a button serves as the power button if you hold it down and if you just tap on it I think it brings up the menu And the base of the remote control which has a squishy spongy rubbery feel is interchangeable So you can change the colour according to your to suit your living room or whatever And it comes 
User Interface: You could change the vegetable or fruit 
Industrial Designer: I can change the vegetable 
Project Manager: Oh is that broccoli ? 
Industrial Designer: So this snaps off and you can put on whichever one you want This is not to scale because it would have the battery inside it This is a mango The it is trendy fruit it is not just ordinary fruits You do not have orange you have mango I guess strawberrys not as trendy but 
Project Manager: S a very bright strawberry 
Industrial Designer: So we will come up with a variety of trendy and exciting fruit designs for the remote control And then people will be encouraged to buy three or five of them because they will need to switch them out 
User Interface: It is been a l It is been a little bit difficult to make sure that it is handholdable and that the user can use it you know it is not too big but we think that this you know this size will be and we will have to fit the battery case in there somehow And I guess the only other thing that we really did not talk about was or design yet actually would be the thing the locator How how so 
Industrial Designer: Well the locator is just chip that is inside there And the beepers also inside there too somewhere 
User Interface: So you have to have a button on your on your you have to attach the button to the 
Industrial Designer: we did not design that 
User Interface: we have that that has yes yet to be designed 
Industrial Designer: But it would be coordinating with that of course 
User Interface: that c hey that that could you know match the handset You could have a broccoli or you could have a mango 
Project Manager: Oh if you want to look in your project documents folder there is an Excel spreadsheet the only one that is in there production costs And if you open it up I have just stuck the numbers in it was a real challenge there But if I missed anything that we have gone over or if you see something that has changed I mean we decided on batteries and the regular chip would be necessary for the more advanced iPodlike button I said uncurved or flat I think that is what you have there is that right ? For the for the plastic part would be 
Industrial Designer: My impression was that flat meant like like one of those square remotes But it is really not very clear because you got single curve and double curve and d I do not know what that means One side is curved and then the other side is curved 
Project Manager: Well If we are talking about the area just oh I d I do not know I guess we would have to contact the company that makes them and see so what else ? There is plastic for that area around the button and then rubber would be the squishy like thing right ? and lots of special colours actually scroll wheel Do you see anything that I have missed ? 
Industrial Designer: No I think that is alright 
Project Manager: so that would make our total of eleven point nine which is even less than twelve point five which means we would be making even more of a profit And if we sold a lot of squishy things Boo S So Mm Did y what did you work on ? The 
Marketing: I have got a presentation So I need where is the cable ? Right what happens is we have to decide whether this this whole this whole project we have been working on actually meets the standards we were set at the start Right This does not the method is we well I have analysed the user requirements and integrated them to the trends found in marketing reports and in our company strategy marketing And the findings were that we need it to look in a certain way feel in a certain way and this is everythings listed down look in a certain way feel in a certain way it has to be technologically innovative and it has to be easy to use These are all things we looked at at the start and criteria that have to be met We have to use a table I will show you that later together to decide whether it meets the standards And we we have therefore in total We have five we have eleven points according to which this should be evaluated And the cri well basically the findings are the same as the evaluation criteria I would like to show you the table we have to use No This is the table Can you see this here ? so the que the questions I have given you c could you write that down ? True is one and and false is seven And we will just go through each point together hopefully I think if each of us gives an opinion then they can be mixed somehow I do not know how it works exactly I have not been told 
User Interface: Is it possible that we can bring this up on our own 
Marketing: it is in the it is in the project documents 
User Interface: Is it meeting three minutes ? No it is not minutes 
Marketing: It is called evaluation criteria And it is under evaluation 
Project Manager: Huh the PowerPoint one ? 
Marketing: You have found it all ? So it was trues one 
User Interface: Trues one and false is seven 
Marketing: Do you want us to discuss this together or do you want us to do it singly ? 
Project Manager: we can do it separately and then discuss it if if that is what people want to do 
User Interface: So it is actually a scale 
Project Manager: Wait one is true and so these are the questions we are answering And one is 
Marketing: yes it is if it is fancy you put one if it is really unfancy it is seven 
Project Manager: If it is somewhere in between you put four 
User Interface: Does it feel fancy ? 
Marketing: They should not really be questions Should be more like Are the batteries easy to insert ? 
Industrial Designer: I am going to say yes 
Marketing: Yes ? Very very true 
Industrial Designer: I imagine they are somewhere on the front We have a little case that you slip them in 
Project Manager: Are we just about ready ? 
Marketing: Apparently I am supposed to use the whiteboard Do we is it necessary ? 
Project Manager: I do not think so It is the the marker thing kind of stopped working last time we Our animals will forever be there Un unless you feel you need it t to 
Marketing: I do not feel any right Right so one point one ? We will just go in a circle Right Ooh I do not know Two so do we just add it up and divide it by four ? Is that what the company does ? 
Project Manager: I I think we should 
Industrial Designer: It is four if you want to do that It adds to sixteen so that is four 
Marketing: Oh no It adds to thirteen One five five two 
Industrial Designer: Oh I thought she said five 
Marketing: One five five two is thirteen over four for now I think that is next ? 
Project Manager: I was not cheating I swear 
Marketing: Uhoh Right One point three is 
User Interface: So it is a one was true and seven was false ? so you guys really did not like it ? 
Project Manager: Oh I thought it was the other way round 
Industrial Designer: I thought it was the other way round too 
Project Manager: So we do have about the same thing we just have it the other way 
Industrial Designer: Sh I I was thinking one means no points you know all the way up to the top 
Marketing: It was one is true and false is seven I should have kept the table up 
Industrial Designer: I will just I will just reverse them all It is no problem 
Marketing: Right well I am glad this came out 
Industrial Designer: I thought you guys hated it 
User Interface: I was like why did you guys design it that way if you hated it ? 
Marketing: No Oh that is quite funny So starting again one point one ? Two one point two ? Two one point three ? Ha Two point one ? 
Project Manager: Two point I think I missed two Wait is that two point one ? 
Industrial Designer: I put it down as one point four for some reason 
Project Manager: One point four one point five right that is I have two of them 
Industrial Designer: Mine has all kinds of problems 
Marketing: Sorry about that T two point two which is one point five 
Industrial Designer: three Wait why did I put three ? I meant one on mine too 
Marketing: Three point one Is that correct on my slide ? 
Industrial Designer: Three point one I have four 
Marketing: One four three three three point two ? Two and four point three Right so I put one on that I will I will just do the calculations now if you want to continue Or is it tedious ? I am I am sorry this was so tedious for everyone","There were two main parts in the detailed design. Firstly, the prototype presentation, Industrial Designer presented the design on the wheel, the button, and the base of the remote control. Secondly, Marketing presented eleven points to be evaluated based on the findings in marketing trend reports and company strategy marketing. Besides, the group had a point calculation on each evaluation criterion."
"Project Manager: No no that is I think we should look at the ones that like where s where people said four where it looks like we might want to discuss changing an aspect of the remote 
Marketing: I did not know how else to do it Well the worst ones were three point one Do does every ones have the slide ? Slide show Material technologically innovative do you want to change it ? What are the suggestions ? I do not know anyone ? 
User Interface: Which one is that again sorry ? Three point one ? 
Marketing: that it is three point one was not that good Four point one 
Project Manager: See I am having I am having trouble imagining the is it going to be the size like the the controller ? It or bigger ? 
Industrial Designer: I think the wheel would probably be mm 
User Interface: What if we just smash all the vegetables down flat ? And like then it you could hold it in your hand better 
Industrial Designer: I think the base would definitely be larger because some of these are not as easy to hold They are kind of smallish 
Project Manager: No but I imagine even if it was bigger like if it is round and it is big then you you can not get that is why remote controls are long because you have that thumb kind of so c they could all be bananas and cucumbers but I do not s I I personally do not think this is comfortable to to sit there like it is an awkward position 
User Interface: I did not But like if if you just squash them flat like and you made it flat 
Industrial Designer: Well if they are that s stress ball stuff they would be pretty squishable Mm 
User Interface: But it is still too big I think in your hand 
Project Manager: And would it even resemble fruit that way ? 
User Interface: like certain ones you would have to limit the fruit selection like you could probably do a strawberry still I think the broccoli would be out You could do although the broccoli is quite comfortable I have to say like sorta like a joystick 
Project Manager: that I I when you were holding that before it actually looked 
User Interface: I do not know So 
Marketing: Are there any fruits that look like broccoli no ? 
Industrial Designer: Not that I can think of Rhubarb 
Marketing: I think that broccoli is my favourite actually 
User Interface: I think we need not 
Project Manager: What if the it was just patterns on like we we chose the shape or the sh shape could be whatever we wanted and then it would just be like a design on the rubber You know like like just a printed or coloured 
Industrial Designer: So it is just colour and not necessarily the shape of a strawberry 
Project Manager: Or I mean we could even have fruit like around But if we if we need 
Marketing: and just have the colour match or something 
Project Manager: And if we want to incorporate the fruit thing somehow there might be I mean if it if it in if it conflicts with the comfort of actually holdi holding the 
User Interface: Because noone wants to hold a remote that is uncomfortable obviously Or like I do not know some of them you can kind of think see as like like you could if it was only this you know if it was shaped like that and it just had that But you see the problem is you have to attach that and this has to be detachable So like maybe that is just too big 
Project Manager: Well see th the reason the broccoli works is you can kind of hold it like that which is a nice kind of 
User Interface: it is sorta like a joystick 
Project Manager: I mean is there some way we could make it this kind of shape ? 
Industrial Designer: We could make it that shape but just have different colours and call them the different fruits We went with shape because we were having fun with the playdough 
Project Manager: Or even like like you said like a joystick like that You know ? 
User Interface: Like we could do I am trying to think of other sha like fruits that are oddly shaped 
Project Manager: Because that I think I mean that fits the whole round iPod idea And you still have the comfort of holding it like that And you could like if it is like this you could put fruit designs and stuff on that part But I mean it do we have any other ideas about that ? 
User Interface: We could tr I do not know 
Marketing: Think the critical ones came out to be that one Batteries easy to insert for some reason which can be easily I think that is not a problem any more 
Project Manager: The batteries are going in the back ? 
Industrial Designer: That everyone gave that a one or a two they would probably be either on the front or the side of the remote 
Project Manager: The reason I I ga I did not give it a one I think I gave it a three because I thought you would have to like unc clip 
Industrial Designer: No I imagine there would be sort of a hatch door 
Project Manager: no you could Just like any other one 
Industrial Designer: like on a normal remote So it would probably either in the f no it can not be in the front because the IRs right there but it would be on one of the sides probably 
Marketing: I think everyone is under three anyway So I think it is those are the only two points 
User Interface: Cool Well the broccoli I guess wins 
Industrial Designer: I would agree with changing the shape I was just having fun making strawberries and stuff 
User Interface: We were a bit off task so I can not think of any So we will have to like Mm I do not know You could make the touch pad in th in different shapes but then that kind of redesigns the whole project like 
Industrial Designer: It might also sort of annoy people if we get used to having the buttons in one shape 
User Interface: but you could do like that is true 
Project Manager: And it would probably cost more to produce because they are irregular 
Industrial Designer: I bet having different colours is a lot cheaper than having different shapes too 
Project Manager: Which is why printing might be like just printing the fruit on fruit","Project Manager suggested that the group might need to discuss changing an aspect of the remote. According to the previous evaluation, the worst one was material. Thus, the group gave suggestions on the smallish size, smashed or resembled fruit shape, and printed patterns on rubber design. The group also suggested changing batteries, but they ended up agreeing that there were no problems in battery design."
"Project Manager: Mm Not really Well we have done finance evaluation criteria production evaluation so project evaluation 
Marketing: Do you want this and we can all No 
Project Manager: I guess we are supposed to discuss the prod the process of the project and how satisfied oh oh it is alright Did you feel there was a lot of room for creativity in the sort of I mean fruit and squishiness How c more creative can you get ? 
User Interface: The prototype making was very creatively stimulating and I think we have come up with a product that is fun and meets all the criteria 
Project Manager: And how was our leadership and teamwork ? 
Industrial Designer: I think it was good We knew what we were doing It was a very democratic process and everyone got to contribute 
Project Manager: Well I thought my leadership was crap personally 
Industrial Designer: Well you told us when to start and when to end and that is all that matters 
Project Manager: Excuse me am I allowed to say that ? 
User Interface: I think you were fine 
Project Manager: well I am never going to do a management position I know that now 
User Interface: You did a good job leading 
Project Manager: I thought we all worked very well together 
Marketing: we did not we it all c sort of blended quite well 
User Interface: I think it more than anything we did not really have our set roles so much as we just would be like I do not know all had ideas about it but 
Project Manager: Very democratic No spats that was good and the means for like the materials we used how convenient were they ? Like the the pens the whiteboard 
Industrial Designer: Well I am not a big fan of any Microsoft PowerPoint or any of this stuff 
Project Manager: Are you a Mac person ? 
Industrial Designer: No no I never touch Macs either I just use the Unix or the off market sort of WordPerfect and all these other things 
Marketing: Which is not very userfriendly though 
Industrial Designer: Well the problem is if you do not like my new computer never has WordPerfect so I have to go track someone down who has an old disk and then I have to reinstall it So I have all these documents I can not use now But I mean I guess it is 
User Interface: I felt like my I do not know if it was just my role but l but I di I thought that my the information that was available to me was kind of just like or maybe it was just the idea that we had But there is kind of it was kind of like I do not really think I do not know what I am doing here So I did not really think it was helpful So I kind of just made up my own stuff and I did not really like the PowerPoint presentations so I kind of wrote a lot of notes instead But I d I do not really like PowerPoint personally think it is kind of stupid 
Project Manager: I can not say I found everything particularly helpful Like I 
Industrial Designer: My first bit of information was like this childs drawn picture of how a remote works 
Marketing: I though it was brilliant no ? No mine was really helpful as in my stuff was quite helpful I think 
Project Manager: I mean m my problem 
Marketing: I think it depends on the role 
Project Manager: Because my problem was you guys had access to like they would put send you to sites and stuff right ? See I could not do that so I did not really know what you guys were doing And when you were talking about it I was just like you know that is wh that is why I seemed so ignorant when when you were j explaining things 
Industrial Designer: well mine was mostly made up except when they told me like you know titanium costs more than wood to make a remote control As if you would wanted to 
Marketing: But it must have been quite difficult for them to build a whole because of course they can not give you anything comparable to the internet for the 
Industrial Designer: Well I think it is interesting how it all went together like I had the stuff about how me how rubbers cheap and you have how people want it to be spongy and It seems planned you know 
User Interface: I kind of thought that I felt like I would go and like try to use my information or like I would make this stupid little presentation and then like I just would end up talking about something completely unrelated I do not know I felt like I was offtask all the time But 
Project Manager: Well I mean we really got into talking about like personal practicalit like it was not necessarily what was like we would never have thought of fruit or sponginess you know ? 
Industrial Designer: If I had not been told that fruit was 
Marketing: But I think that it it might be to see whether people actually all come up with the same thing 
Project Manager: Oh right given certain information or Just 
Marketing: like if everyone is given the same input I do not have a clue anyway what is next ? Looks like oh no that is not 
Project Manager: What do you guys think of the pens ? 
Industrial Designer: They are kind of hard to write with though 
Project Manager: and I I have f forgotten once or twice to check the box 
User Interface: I I would like to see what what it looks like on the 
Industrial Designer: They are nicer than the pen that I am using because like your stuff actually shows up here rather than having to look at the screen and write But even so I do not know 
Project Manager: And new ideas found ? 
Marketing: it is all very new no ? It is all very new 
User Interface: I think I would like to I do not know Like it was the I think the microphones are when you are sitting down but like they are kind of clumsy I guess when you are like when you are s going up to the whiteboard like 
Industrial Designer: Oh Well they drop off if you like move too much 
User Interface: I do not know But they are they are 
Industrial Designer: But I do not think we are supposed to be testing these microphones Maybe we are 
User Interface: I think and I think that all this technology like I guess some people must be interested in using it but I can not imagine finding it any more useful than like looking at someone is notes 
Industrial Designer: Well the thing is like I actually worked in a company 
User Interface: or like I do not know 
Industrial Designer: and I had a role and I had to go to meetings And like the last thing I would have wanted would be to have to watch a video because I missed a meeting Like usually I missed meetings deliberately There is just there is really not that much information that actually goes through a real meeting like when you are actually at a real meeting in a real company It is mostly like rehashing old stuff And you are sort of going over general stuff that anybody who is sort of on task should already know It is like the there is just really not a lot of information that goes through 
Project Manager: Seems kind of like an excessive reiteration 
Industrial Designer: It seems like way overkill Like if I missed a meeting I could probably get it summed up in like one sentence I would not need to have to watch like a t two hour video with the sound and the transcript and 
User Interface: I guess it would be it is got to be worth it to I because I am just mostly curious about like what kind of person or like company would would really find it useful because can not really imagine do not know How about a p a ? 
Project Manager: Well does anyone want to talk about fruit more while we still have time ? 
Marketing: What what is the end ? Are we are we supposed to you supposed to write a report ? Or we ending ? 
Project Manager: we still have time if there is any other input 
Marketing: Is that the end ? 
Project Manager: I mean the I think we did really well personally which is why we have you know gone through this so quickly Because I mean we have all we all kind of agreed our product is satisfactory it fits the budget and it is trendy 
Marketing: End of meeting You have to tell her she 
Project Manager: So I think that is all for today 
Marketing: we have to fill in all this stuff 
Industrial Designer: I think I have learned not to bring playdough to meetings 
User Interface: I think it would be a good idea I like it 
Industrial Designer: It is hard enough to get people actually paying attention Especially if you have food 
Project Manager: So I guess we are supposed to write final reports Because 
Marketing: Well there is al eight nine 
Project Manager: Or is that just me ?","Firstly, Project Manager asked about the room for creativity in fruit and squishiness. User Interface thought the prototype making was creatively stimulating and the product has met all the criteria. Next, Project Manager reflected on his leadership and management role in the group. Other members gave recognition to his performance and everyone's cooperation. Then, Project Manager asked about the convenience of the means for the materials and the pen used in the presentation. Group evaluated based on the user-friendly and the working efficiency."
"Project Manager: No no that is I think we should look at the ones that like where s where people said four where it looks like we might want to discuss changing an aspect of the remote 
Marketing: I did not know how else to do it Well the worst ones were three point one Do does every ones have the slide ? Slide show Material technologically innovative do you want to change it ? What are the suggestions ? I do not know anyone ? 
User Interface: Which one is that again sorry ? Three point one ? 
Marketing: that it is three point one was not that good Four point one 
Project Manager: See I am having I am having trouble imagining the is it going to be the size like the the controller ? It or bigger ? 
Industrial Designer: I think the wheel would probably be mm 
User Interface: What if we just smash all the vegetables down flat ? And like then it you could hold it in your hand better 
Industrial Designer: I think the base would definitely be larger because some of these are not as easy to hold They are kind of smallish 
Project Manager: No but I imagine even if it was bigger like if it is round and it is big then you you can not get that is why remote controls are long because you have that thumb kind of so c they could all be bananas and cucumbers but I do not s I I personally do not think this is comfortable to to sit there like it is an awkward position 
User Interface: I did not But like if if you just squash them flat like and you made it flat 
Industrial Designer: Well if they are that s stress ball stuff they would be pretty squishable Mm 
User Interface: But it is still too big I think in your hand 
Project Manager: And would it even resemble fruit that way ? 
User Interface: like certain ones you would have to limit the fruit selection like you could probably do a strawberry still I think the broccoli would be out You could do although the broccoli is quite comfortable I have to say like sorta like a joystick 
Project Manager: that I I when you were holding that before it actually looked 
User Interface: I do not know So 
Marketing: Are there any fruits that look like broccoli no ? 
Industrial Designer: Not that I can think of Rhubarb 
Marketing: I think that broccoli is my favourite actually 
User Interface: I think we need not 
Project Manager: What if the it was just patterns on like we we chose the shape or the sh shape could be whatever we wanted and then it would just be like a design on the rubber You know like like just a printed or coloured 
Industrial Designer: So it is just colour and not necessarily the shape of a strawberry 
Project Manager: Or I mean we could even have fruit like around But if we if we need 
Marketing: and just have the colour match or something 
Project Manager: And if we want to incorporate the fruit thing somehow there might be I mean if it if it in if it conflicts with the comfort of actually holdi holding the 
User Interface: Because noone wants to hold a remote that is uncomfortable obviously Or like I do not know some of them you can kind of think see as like like you could if it was only this you know if it was shaped like that and it just had that But you see the problem is you have to attach that and this has to be detachable So like maybe that is just too big 
Project Manager: Well see th the reason the broccoli works is you can kind of hold it like that which is a nice kind of 
User Interface: it is sorta like a joystick 
Project Manager: I mean is there some way we could make it this kind of shape ? 
Industrial Designer: We could make it that shape but just have different colours and call them the different fruits We went with shape because we were having fun with the playdough 
Project Manager: Or even like like you said like a joystick like that You know ? 
User Interface: Like we could do I am trying to think of other sha like fruits that are oddly shaped 
Project Manager: Because that I think I mean that fits the whole round iPod idea And you still have the comfort of holding it like that And you could like if it is like this you could put fruit designs and stuff on that part But I mean it do we have any other ideas about that ? 
User Interface: We could tr I do not know 
Marketing: Think the critical ones came out to be that one Batteries easy to insert for some reason which can be easily I think that is not a problem any more 
Project Manager: The batteries are going in the back ? 
Industrial Designer: That everyone gave that a one or a two they would probably be either on the front or the side of the remote 
Project Manager: The reason I I ga I did not give it a one I think I gave it a three because I thought you would have to like unc clip 
Industrial Designer: No I imagine there would be sort of a hatch door 
Project Manager: no you could Just like any other one 
Industrial Designer: like on a normal remote So it would probably either in the f no it can not be in the front because the IRs right there but it would be on one of the sides probably 
Marketing: I think everyone is under three anyway So I think it is those are the only two points 
User Interface: Cool Well the broccoli I guess wins 
Industrial Designer: I would agree with changing the shape I was just having fun making strawberries and stuff 
User Interface: We were a bit off task so I can not think of any So we will have to like Mm I do not know You could make the touch pad in th in different shapes but then that kind of redesigns the whole project like 
Industrial Designer: It might also sort of annoy people if we get used to having the buttons in one shape 
User Interface: but you could do like that is true 
Project Manager: And it would probably cost more to produce because they are irregular 
Industrial Designer: I bet having different colours is a lot cheaper than having different shapes too 
Project Manager: Which is why printing might be like just printing the fruit on fruit","Instead of changing the shape of the remote, the group first discussed changing the batteries because some group mates gave a point under three. However, Marketing thought batteries were easy to insert so it would not be a problem anymore. In addition, all the group members gave the shape of the remote only two points. And they needed to change the most critical one. The shape and the squishiness of the remote were an innovation in terms of technology. Therefore, they all agreed to change the shape."
"Project Manager: And how was our leadership and teamwork ? 
Industrial Designer: I think it was good We knew what we were doing It was a very democratic process and everyone got to contribute 
Project Manager: Well I thought my leadership was crap personally 
Industrial Designer: Well you told us when to start and when to end and that is all that matters 
Project Manager: Excuse me am I allowed to say that ? 
User Interface: I think you were fine 
Project Manager: well I am never going to do a management position I know that now 
User Interface: You did a good job leading 
Project Manager: I thought we all worked very well together 
Marketing: we did not we it all c sort of blended quite well 
User Interface: I think it more than anything we did not really have our set roles so much as we just would be like I do not know all had ideas about it but 
Project Manager: Very democratic No spats that was good","Project Manager thought his leadership was crap personally and he never did a management position. While Industrial Designer thought Project Manager did tell them when to start and when to end, which was important in good leadership. And User Interface thought Project Manager did a good job in leadership because they didn't have set roles so much, which was a democratic process. Marketing supplemented that everyone got blended quite well."
"Project Manager: and the means for like the materials we used how convenient were they ? Like the the pens the whiteboard 
Industrial Designer: Well I am not a big fan of any Microsoft PowerPoint or any of this stuff 
Project Manager: Are you a Mac person ? 
Industrial Designer: No no I never touch Macs either I just use the Unix or the off market sort of WordPerfect and all these other things 
Marketing: Which is not very userfriendly though 
Industrial Designer: Well the problem is if you do not like my new computer never has WordPerfect so I have to go track someone down who has an old disk and then I have to reinstall it So I have all these documents I can not use now But I mean I guess it is 
User Interface: I felt like my I do not know if it was just my role but l but I di I thought that my the information that was available to me was kind of just like or maybe it was just the idea that we had But there is kind of it was kind of like I do not really think I do not know what I am doing here So I did not really think it was helpful So I kind of just made up my own stuff and I did not really like the PowerPoint presentations so I kind of wrote a lot of notes instead But I d I do not really like PowerPoint personally think it is kind of stupid 
Project Manager: I can not say I found everything particularly helpful Like I 
Industrial Designer: My first bit of information was like this childs drawn picture of how a remote works 
Marketing: I though it was brilliant no ? No mine was really helpful as in my stuff was quite helpful I think 
Project Manager: I mean m my problem 
Marketing: I think it depends on the role 
Project Manager: Because my problem was you guys had access to like they would put send you to sites and stuff right ? See I could not do that so I did not really know what you guys were doing And when you were talking about it I was just like you know that is wh that is why I seemed so ignorant when when you were j explaining things","Both User Interface and Industrial Designer thought it was not helpful to use PowerPoint to present. Instead, they preferred writing notes for massive information, while Marketing and Project Manager thought PowerPoint materials were quite useful. Specifically, Project Manager mentioned that he felt ignorant when the group was explaining things."
"Grad A: Are we going to start all our meetings out that way from now on ? Oh Too bad I kind of like it 
Grad D: Are we to r Just to make sure I know what s going on we are talking about Robert s thesis proposal today ? Is that 
Professor E: Well you you had s you said there were two things that you might want to do One was rehearse your i i talk 
Grad D: Oh yes and that too 
Grad C: Not not rehearse I mean I have just not spent any time on it so I can show you what I ve got get your input on it and maybe some suggestions that would be great And the same is true for the proposal I will have time to do some revision and some additional stuff on various airplanes and trains So I do not know how much of a chance you had to actually read it 
Grad A: I have not looked at it 
Grad C: but you could always send me comments per electronic mail and they will be incorporated the It basically says well `` this is construal `` and then it continues to say that one could potentially build a probabilistic relational model that has some general domain general rules how things are construed and then the idea is to use ontology situation user and discourse model to instantiate elements in the classes of the probabilistic relational model pause to do some inferences in terms of what is being construed as what in our beloved tourism domain But with a focus on 
Grad F: I think I need a copy of this yes 
Grad D: OK we can we can we can pass pass my we can pass my extra copy around 
Grad F: I is there an extra copy around ? 
Grad A: He sent it OK You can keep it 
Grad D: Er actually my only copy now that I think about it 
Grad C: I do not I I do not need it","The thesis proposal presents the idea of ""construal"" and makes claims as to how inferences are drawn in a probabilistic relational model by using information from the ontology, situation, user and discourse models. It was advised that more emphasis should be put on the role of construal in the understanding of metaphor and metonymy."
"Grad D: I I can hear it They might not hear it in the well maybe they will I do not know 
Grad A: This was an actual subject ? Ah 
Grad C: But they are they are mimicking the synthesis when they speak to the computer the you can observe that all the time they are trying to match their prosody onto the machine 
Grad F: Oh really Interesting Oh it s pretty slow 
Grad A: What is the s ? Oh ! 
Grad C: OK And so forth and so forth I will talk about our problems with the rephrasing and how we solved it and some preliminary observations also I m not going to put in the figures from Liz but I thought it would interesting to point out that it s basically the same as in every human human telephone conversation and the human computer telephone conversation is of course quite d quite different from some first observations Then sort of feed you back to our original problem cuz how to get there what actually is happening there today and then maybe talk about the big picture here e tell a little bit as much as I pause can about the NTL story I I wa I do want to I m not quite sure about this whether I should put this in that you know you have these two sort of different ideas that are or two different camps of people envisioning how language understanding works and then talk a bit about the embodied and simulation approach favored here and as a prelude I will talk about monkeys in Italy And Srini was going to send me some slides but he did not do it so from but I have the paper I can make a resume of that and then I stole an X schema from one of your talks I think 
Grad A: Oh I was like `` where would you get that ? `` OK 
Grad C: I think that s Bergen Chang something or the other and that s now I m not going to bring that So that s basically what I have so far and the rest is for airplanes So X schemas then I would like to do talk about the construction aspect and then at the end about our Bayes net End of story Anything I forgot that we should mention ? Oh maybe the FMRI stuff Should I mention the fact that we are also actually started going to start to look at people s brains in a more direct way ? 
Professor E: You certainly can I mean I y I you know I do not know 
Grad A: You might just want to like tack that on as a comment to something 
Grad C: `` Future activities `` something 
Professor E: Well the time to mention it if you mention it is when you talk about mirror neurons then you should talk about the more recent stuff about the kicking and you know the and that the plan is to see to what extent the you will get the same phenomena with stories about this so that","The talk will present the work that is currently being done at ICSI including examples of inference of user intentions and of the recordings of the on-going data collection. The talk will also outline the theoretical (X-schemas, image schemas, Bayes-nets) and neural background."
"Grad A: What is the s ? Oh ! 
Grad C: OK And so forth and so forth I will talk about our problems with the rephrasing and how we solved it and some preliminary observations also I m not going to put in the figures from Liz but I thought it would interesting to point out that it s basically the same as in every human human telephone conversation and the human computer telephone conversation is of course quite d quite different from some first observations Then sort of feed you back to our original problem cuz how to get there what actually is happening there today and then maybe talk about the big picture here e tell a little bit as much as I pause can about the NTL story I I wa I do want to I m not quite sure about this whether I should put this in that you know you have these two sort of different ideas that are or two different camps of people envisioning how language understanding works and then talk a bit about the embodied and simulation approach favored here and as a prelude I will talk about monkeys in Italy And Srini was going to send me some slides but he did not do it so from but I have the paper I can make a resume of that and then I stole an X schema from one of your talks I think 
Grad A: Oh I was like `` where would you get that ? `` OK 
Grad C: I think that s Bergen Chang something or the other and that s now I m not going to bring that So that s basically what I have so far and the rest is for airplanes So X schemas then I would like to do talk about the construction aspect and then at the end about our Bayes net End of story Anything I forgot that we should mention ? Oh maybe the FMRI stuff Should I mention the fact that we are also actually started going to start to look at people s brains in a more direct way ? 
Professor E: You certainly can I mean I y I you know I do not know 
Grad A: You might just want to like tack that on as a comment to something 
Grad C: `` Future activities `` something 
Professor E: Well the time to mention it if you mention it is when you talk about mirror neurons then you should talk about the more recent stuff about the kicking and you know the and that the plan is to see to what extent the you will get the same phenomena with stories about this so that and that we are planning to do this which we are So that s one thing Depends I mean there is a whole language learning story OK ? which actually i i even on your five layer slide you you ve got an old one that that leaves that off 
Grad C: I I I do have it here And of course you know the the big picture is this bit But you know it would But I do not think I I am capable of of do pulling this off and doing justice to the matter I mean there is interesting stuff in her terms of how language works so the emergentism story would be nice to be you know it would be nice to tell people how what s happening there plus how the language learning stuff works 
Professor E: OK so so anyway I I agree that s not central","As the talk at EML will also refer to a theoretical framework, it was suggested that along with presenting NTL and the piece on mirror neurons, it also alludes to relevant fMRI work. The neural side of the research could be of interest to various groups. The language analysis itself will be introduced in terms of image schemas. On the other hand, it was arranged for more feedback on the thesis proposal to be sent by email. The latest version of the construction formalism will also be needed to complete the presentation."
"User Interface: Mm So first I will present the concept of user interface there is three concepts in the user interface So first one it is a Google controller The second is a fancy controller The last one is intelligent controller So there are three concepts in our controller n next I will explain one by one the first is Google controller so I want the controller to be easy to use but with sophisticated functions So it is a combination of easy to use and sophisticated functions this is a first concept of our controller The second concept is a fancy controller so we want give the customers the impression that our controller is very attractive they can easy recognise our controller among a lot of products so so the you the user f the the you user interface should be very very cute very very g attractive Such like this there are several examples in the slides 
Project Manager: I am not sure the one in the middle is very attractive 
User Interface: it is very you know It is hard f i it is easy for you to remember it Or to recognise it 
Project Manager: We will have big discussion I suppose after that 
User Interface: So the last concept is intelligent We want we want our controller to be smart so maybe we should use technology such as speech recognition technology and gesture recognition technology so we need to have coop some cooperation with some research institute on speech recognition and gesture recognition With this advanced features we I think we can attract a lot of user No There this is the three concepts of our controller 
Project Manager: I just have one question because for the intelligent controller you said that we can use the voice recognition or the gesture recognition but as the expert told us most of the people want to use the remote control to zap t to zap between channels Do you think they will be able to use gestures ? Because if they do all the time the same gesture as you said previously in the last meeting maybe they will get injuries because of that ? or if you say channel three channel three two three four six five I think they will be bored after a while You do not think so ? 
User Interface: I think some time it is very convenient to use voice interface and gesture interface than use button For example if you can not find your controller you can just just just speak something such as one two 
Industrial Designer: Oh that is a good that is a good point so 
Project Manager: but suppose you got a cold You have a mute remote controller 
User Interface: So you can use your gesture That is no problem 
Marketing: but how how is how risky is it to trust like speech recognition or gesture recognition ? 
User Interface: For limited vocabulary speech recognition is very reliable and for s limited vocabulary gesture recognition is also very 
Project Manager: but suppose you have a family watching TV and if they want to use their private remote control in the same time do you think it will work ? Everybody wanting to change channel in the same time ? 
Marketing: But this this but this would never happen anyway 
User Interface: they can not speak at the same time 
Project Manager: If you have one brother and one sister and they want to watch their favourite TV programme so they say oh channel four channel three channel four channel three all the time 
Industrial Designer: but the same can happen even with it you know this kind of remote control 
Marketing: I do not think it 
Project Manager: but you have the remote control so maybe you can keep it f with you You are not you are not obliged to share it 
Marketing: Oh you mean it could be a problem for this kind of stuff 
User Interface: that is that is the advantage of intelligent controller Even you h you have the controller I can I can say channel three so it is c come to channel three 
Marketing: No but this is disadvant disadvantage 
User Interface: I do not have to 
Project Manager: I think it is a disadvantage 
Industrial Designer: And mayb maybe we can have the switching mode to pass from you know voice controller to 
Project Manager: How how much will it cost ? Because I suppose we need to do research to have something working 
User Interface: No no we we d we we just are use 
Marketing: if you if if you use the basic 
User Interface: No no we just have some cooperation with some research institute we do not have to do some basic research on this field 
Project Manager: So you think it will not cost an Not a lot for us ? Or ? 
User Interface: I think it is because this technology is for limited wor or limited wor lexical recognition it is very 
Marketing: But it is it is changing how the remote control is going to be built Because then you need I mean this does not have the power to do recognition for example 
Industrial Designer: Well y y you have also the language problem 
User Interface: No it is Even for the f because the the vocabulary the 
Industrial Designer: Because it it have to be universal 
User Interface: The vocabulary is very small so that is not a problem 
Project Manager: but there is one problem that Baba talked about is the international remote control We need something that is international Suppose we are we want to sell it in France The recognition system will be able to understand French If you want to go to England it will be able to understand English 
User Interface: the key the key the key of our the key feature of our controller is that it is it has some some adaptation 
Marketing: this could be downloaded by the web maybe or 
Industrial Designer: but you know The product The pro 
User Interface: mechanism It is It is it means when you when you sell this controller in China it is can recognise Chinese It is r if you sell this controller in France it can recognise French 
Industrial Designer: It is a very smart it is a very smart controller maybe 
Project Manager: And with no increase in the pri production price of the remote control ? 
User Interface: Because of this product this technology has already been developed 
Industrial Designer: but the problem is how to s you know if this is a push button controller you can send this con this remote control everywhere in the world the same one If you have the language you have to develop for each country 
User Interface: Oh n tha that is why we have to do language adaptation 
Industrial Designer: but for each country you have to do one because the for example for Se 
User Interface: Even for each f for even for different family we have to do d we would we have to do adaptation to 
Industrial Designer: Oh really ? That is 
Project Manager: Seems to be quite complex 
User Interface: No it is not so complex 
Marketing: we have to take care of the twelve Euros 
Project Manager: And what about voice recognition do we have microphones ? And where will be they ? Do you think if we are far from television it will work ? 
User Interface: No no no it is not I think that is n that is not a problem because you you do not have to wear a microphone It it just the microphone is embedded in the controller 
Project Manager: but where is the controller ? 
User Interface: Where is the controller ? It is in your family in your home 
Marketing: No but then it is it is like this 
Project Manager: here it is an object But here you say you want to use i s technology 
User Interface: you can you can embed it microphone here 
Project Manager: but wha what is the use of voice or gesture recognition if you have a remote control li like this if you have an object If you want to use voice or gesture you need to be free without any object 
Industrial Designer: To talk to the to the TV maybe 
Project Manager: You just want to interact with television 
User Interface: just you just put the controller here then you 
Industrial Designer: I if you say one he switch to channel 
User Interface: and you do s your gesture 
Project Manager: but you can lose it 
User Interface: No no it is n y if you lose it 
Industrial Designer: So well for example if it is somewhere in the room if i maybe if it is in the table there you can always say s channel one and the t the remote control gives the order to the TV to switch to channel one 
Project Manager: you so you can build a kind of black box and put it on TV and just to recognize gestures and voice 
Industrial Designer: but so you need a camera and you know a microphone inside your remote control 
Marketing: But you would still have the buttons Or is it do you think it should be only voice recognition and gesture recognition ? Or you you still have the possibility to use buttons ? 
User Interface: think it we should give the flexibility to the user and we think You can see they can switch form one modality to another 
Marketing: I do not know It is a bit risky risky 
Project Manager: And maybe it will be quite 
User Interface: that is quite inter quite attractive 
Industrial Designer: But I think that you know switching from one country to to another will be a problem so although y y 
User Interface: Well if you do language adaptation there should be no problem We should have confidence in technology 
Project Manager: So what do you think ? We will try the controllers you would prefer Which kind of controller would you prefer to use you as a remote control user ? 
Marketing: If if I mean I am sure if the user pays the same price he is happy to have recognition But if if if it like doubles 
Industrial Designer: I think he need a control that is very reliable 
Marketing: no one would would be interested 
Project Manager: So I think it would be better not to do any intelligent controller and to stay with the Google controller or a fancy controller Maybe try to mix the Google controller and the fancy controller ? ? Just want to have something controller which is in a kind of intelligent controller easy to use sophisticated and fancy You think it is possible ? 
User Interface: but if if you stick to stick to the first two parts So what is the difference between our controller with other products in the market ? There is no k features of our controller so is there is there any necessary to design new controller without any breakthrough features ? Would y would you replace your controller with a controller with similar function if you do not have some some function inside it that 
Industrial Designer: It is not really the we we can add for example some function like for browsing in internet so or something like that But I think a user need 
User Interface: you y that is a fun that is not the function of the controller that is a function of TV You can replace your TV with a new TV with internet browsing function 
Marketing: but you need you need new remote controller then Because if you want to browse internet or I do not know if you want to type something 
Industrial Designer: Do not have a the the if we can send email from it 
User Interface: But it is not the only the problem only the issue of controller it is it is also the issue of the TV 
Industrial Designer: Because the p the problem I can see with with the voice or the gesture itself wh what can happen in a family i i for example if 
User Interface: but we do we do we we we can not rely one hundred percent on these features to you to use the controller but with the features of our controller such as you have the feature of voice recognition in your mobile but you seldom use it your mobile but you when you choose a new mobile you choose the one with voice recognition the feature is not one hundred percent reliable but it is a feature to distinguish our product from our from other products 
Project Manager: but w we we want something th that works all the time every day every hour for everyone 
Industrial Designer: And for all the person of the family maybe 
Project Manager: You do not need to tune it 
User Interface: if if if if you are if you ar if you already have a product it works one hundred percent reliable would you replace it with another one ? 
Project Manager: why not ? If it is 
Marketing: I mean for example the goo y you say we would we would to have a Googlelike controller I do not see how adding speech or gesture recognition would make the remote control look more like Google Google is is simple works fine so I I guess if can have a remote control that is really basic simple and works fine it is already a lot 
User Interface: Oh yes but there is no big difference between the traditional controller 
Marketing: thi this I mean the user is not only interested in having speech or gesture recognition if he has something that works fine and is really fancy looks nice and it is easy easy to use easy to use 
User Interface: But the there is there is n there is n not enough motivation for them to replace their old controller with a new one if there is no key feature in the new controller 
Marketing: I mean I I know it is more interesting to develop a remote controller with speech and gesture and whatever But you have to think the user is the one who going to buy the product I mean that is the point","The user interface designer introduced three concepts in the user interface - Google controller, fancy controller, and intelligent controller. The three meant that the product would be simple but powerful, attractive and recognizable, and loaded with speech recognition technology and gesture recognition technology. The first two were approved by the project manager, but the last one was seriously questioned. After a lot of discussions, the group finally decided to mix the Google controller and fancy controller with some simple vocal commands."
User Interface: I think some time it is very convenient to use voice interface and gesture interface than use button,"The user interface designer believed a controller with speech recognition technology and gesture recognition technology would be convenient when you couldn't find it. More importantly, although the feature was not one hundred percent reliable, it was a feature to distinguish the new product from traditional ones. And there's not enough motivation for users to replace their old controller with a new one if there's no key feature in the new controller."
"Project Manager: I just have one question because for the intelligent controller you said that we can use the voice recognition or the gesture recognition but as the expert told us most of the people want to use the remote control to zap t to zap between channels Do you think they will be able to use gestures ? Because if they do all the time the same gesture as you said previously in the last meeting maybe they will get injuries because of that ? or if you say channel three channel three two three four six five I think they will be bored after a while You do not think so ? 
User Interface: I think some time it is very convenient to use voice interface and gesture interface than use button For example if you can not find your controller you can just just just speak something such as one two 
Industrial Designer: Oh that is a good that is a good point so 
Project Manager: but suppose you got a cold You have a mute remote controller 
User Interface: So you can use your gesture That is no problem 
Marketing: but how how is how risky is it to trust like speech recognition or gesture recognition ? 
User Interface: For limited vocabulary speech recognition is very reliable and for s limited vocabulary gesture recognition is also very 
Project Manager: but suppose you have a family watching TV and if they want to use their private remote control in the same time do you think it will work ? Everybody wanting to change channel in the same time ? 
Marketing: But this this but this would never happen anyway 
User Interface: they can not speak at the same time 
Project Manager: If you have one brother and one sister and they want to watch their favourite TV programme so they say oh channel four channel three channel four channel three all the time 
Industrial Designer: but the same can happen even with it you know this kind of remote control 
Marketing: I do not think it 
Project Manager: but you have the remote control so maybe you can keep it f with you You are not you are not obliged to share it 
Marketing: Oh you mean it could be a problem for this kind of stuff 
User Interface: that is that is the advantage of intelligent controller Even you h you have the controller I can I can say channel three so it is c come to channel three 
Marketing: No but this is disadvant disadvantage 
User Interface: I do not have to 
Project Manager: I think it is a disadvantage 
Industrial Designer: And mayb maybe we can have the switching mode to pass from you know voice controller to 
Project Manager: How how much will it cost ? Because I suppose we need to do research to have something working 
User Interface: No no we we d we we just are use 
Marketing: if you if if you use the basic 
User Interface: No no we just have some cooperation with some research institute we do not have to do some basic research on this field 
Project Manager: So you think it will not cost an Not a lot for us ? Or ? 
User Interface: I think it is because this technology is for limited wor or limited wor lexical recognition it is very 
Marketing: But it is it is changing how the remote control is going to be built Because then you need I mean this does not have the power to do recognition for example 
Industrial Designer: Well y y you have also the language problem 
User Interface: No it is Even for the f because the the vocabulary the 
Industrial Designer: Because it it have to be universal 
User Interface: The vocabulary is very small so that is not a problem 
Project Manager: but there is one problem that Baba talked about is the international remote control We need something that is international Suppose we are we want to sell it in France The recognition system will be able to understand French If you want to go to England it will be able to understand English 
User Interface: the key the key the key of our the key feature of our controller is that it is it has some some adaptation 
Marketing: this could be downloaded by the web maybe or 
Industrial Designer: but you know The product The pro 
User Interface: mechanism It is It is it means when you when you sell this controller in China it is can recognise Chinese It is r if you sell this controller in France it can recognise French 
Industrial Designer: It is a very smart it is a very smart controller maybe 
Project Manager: And with no increase in the pri production price of the remote control ? 
User Interface: Because of this product this technology has already been developed 
Industrial Designer: but the problem is how to s you know if this is a push button controller you can send this con this remote control everywhere in the world the same one If you have the language you have to develop for each country 
User Interface: Oh n tha that is why we have to do language adaptation 
Industrial Designer: but for each country you have to do one because the for example for Se 
User Interface: Even for each f for even for different family we have to do d we would we have to do adaptation to 
Industrial Designer: Oh really ? That is 
Project Manager: Seems to be quite complex 
User Interface: No it is not so complex 
Marketing: we have to take care of the twelve Euros 
Project Manager: And what about voice recognition do we have microphones ? And where will be they ? Do you think if we are far from television it will work ? 
User Interface: No no no it is not I think that is n that is not a problem because you you do not have to wear a microphone It it just the microphone is embedded in the controller 
Project Manager: but where is the controller ? 
User Interface: Where is the controller ? It is in your family in your home 
Marketing: No but then it is it is like this 
Project Manager: here it is an object But here you say you want to use i s technology 
User Interface: you can you can embed it microphone here 
Project Manager: but wha what is the use of voice or gesture recognition if you have a remote control li like this if you have an object If you want to use voice or gesture you need to be free without any object 
Industrial Designer: To talk to the to the TV maybe 
Project Manager: You just want to interact with television 
User Interface: just you just put the controller here then you 
Industrial Designer: I if you say one he switch to channel 
User Interface: and you do s your gesture 
Project Manager: but you can lose it 
User Interface: No no it is n y if you lose it 
Industrial Designer: So well for example if it is somewhere in the room if i maybe if it is in the table there you can always say s channel one and the t the remote control gives the order to the TV to switch to channel one 
Project Manager: you so you can build a kind of black box and put it on TV and just to recognize gestures and voice 
Industrial Designer: but so you need a camera and you know a microphone inside your remote control 
Marketing: But you would still have the buttons Or is it do you think it should be only voice recognition and gesture recognition ? Or you you still have the possibility to use buttons ? 
User Interface: think it we should give the flexibility to the user and we think You can see they can switch form one modality to another 
Marketing: I do not know It is a bit risky risky 
Project Manager: And maybe it will be quite 
User Interface: that is quite inter quite attractive 
Industrial Designer: But I think that you know switching from one country to to another will be a problem so although y y 
User Interface: Well if you do language adaptation there should be no problem We should have confidence in technology","The project manager put forward that the speech recognition wouldn't work when several persons wanted to change the channel at the same time, and the cost would surely rise if adding the two technologies. In response to that, the user interface designer said they would just cooperate with some research institute and the vocabulary was limited, so it wouldn't cost much. Then the project manager posed the language problem. The user interface designer answered they would have some language adaptations so the product could be used by people from all countries. Finally, there were still problems with the microphone and camera that were necessary for the two technologies."
"Industrial Designer: and so So I in fact the the f something I want to discuss is which kind of material are we going to use so will it will be wooden wooden di wooden remote control or a a plastic remote control like this one So and in which which which kind will be the the different bu button so it can be some you know classic pushbutton like this one or you have also some button like LCD where you know the button the buttons are unlighted during the night or you know you can see them in the darkness And the other thing I want to discuss also is which kind of alimentation electric alimentation do you want to have so will it be for example d solar energy alimentation or will it be a battery like the classical battery so And I think that for example for the alimentation it would be good to have both of them so so for example in some country where you are in the the countryside and you are far from you know the cities for example in some place in in S Senegal so if you have electric if you have solar alimentation you just when you want to have recharger or remote control power you just put it on the sun and after one hour you can come and so it can be interesting for people to have this kind of remote con It can be something interesting to make people buy it for example 
Project Manager: I think it is an added value to the remote control and maybe it can attract all the ecological k consumers and but about the the price of adding this solar battery would it be something really that will increase the price of production more 
Industrial Designer: Alrigh In fact having them both will if we want to have battery regular battery and and the solar energy battery it could be it will it will add a little bit of the price but it will be an added value also that will be compensated 
Project Manager: And what tha what about the materials ? 
Industrial Designer: And the materials it depends for example you if you have a wooden material it can be more the plastic material is more common it is very resistant but you know something wooden will be like I do not know high cl so a special high class or you know you can have some 
Project Manager: and i if you we want to put fashion in electronics maybe we can try to do something with wood 
Industrial Designer: even if it is not completely wood but just a part of the you know will be wooden in wood and it can be interesting 
Project Manager: Mm seems to be interesting mm 
Industrial Designer: And so the last point is y also would do you want to have some very cheap integrated cir circuits chips or do you have low level or or very very expensive it depends but I think that low level will be you know it is an interim module 
Project Manager: we want something easy to use and so I think maybe something very low level wou would be enough And you think that we will be 
Industrial Designer: I think it will fit on the price we want twel twelve Euros 
Project Manager: And what about the buttons ? 
Industrial Designer: I think the buttons I pr I prefer you know the LCD you know lighted buttons because you know it is I do not know in the dark it is fashion and it is related to how beautiful it is or if you want to watch TV in the darkness or if you want to lo find your find your your remote control that is lost you know in the darkness it is very easy so right 
Marketing: What about the touch scr touch screen ? For example It is it is expensive I I guess 
Industrial Designer: I think a touch screen will be t as expensive as the LCD buttons so But And it is a kind of other design I mean It can also be interesting to have this kind of 
User Interface: So you got email ? 
Project Manager: I do not know I think we have only five minutes left","The discussion about product industrial design covered three aspects —material, alimentation, and chip. The industrial designer suggested using wood instead of plastic to make the controller more fashionable and having buttons with LCD so that people could see the controller in dark. In terms of the alimentation, it would be good to have both the classical battery and solar energy alimentation. Considering that the product was supposed to be easy to use, the industrial designer thought some low level chip would be enough, which was agreed by the group."
"Industrial Designer: And the other thing I want to discuss also is which kind of alimentation electric alimentation do you want to have so will it be for example d solar energy alimentation or will it be a battery like the classical battery so And I think that for example for the alimentation it would be good to have both of them so so for example in some country where you are in the the countryside and you are far from you know the cities for example in some place in in S Senegal so if you have electric if you have solar alimentation you just when you want to have recharger or remote control power you just put it on the sun and after one hour you can come and so it can be interesting for people to have this kind of remote con It can be something interesting to make people buy it for example 
Project Manager: I think it is an added value to the remote control and maybe it can attract all the ecological k consumers and but about the the price of adding this solar battery would it be something really that will increase the price of production more 
Industrial Designer: Alrigh In fact having them both will if we want to have battery regular battery and and the solar energy battery it could be it will it will add a little bit of the price but it will be an added value also that will be compensated","With the solar energy alimentation, people in remote areas could recharge the controller more conveniently. Plus, it might attract some ecologists to purchase. Although the design would increase the production cost, it would be added value that can be compensated."
Industrial Designer: and so So I in fact the the f something I want to discuss is which kind of material are we going to use so will it will be wooden wooden di wooden remote control or a a plastic remote control like this one So and in which which which kind will be the the different bu button so it can be some you know classic pushbutton like this one or you have also some button like LCD where you know the button the buttons are unlighted during the night or you know you can see them in the darkness,"The group decided to use wood partly instead of plastic because they wanted to put fashion in electronics and wood was a good option. By contrast, the plastic material was more common, impersonal, and not so high class as wood."
"Project Manager: Participant four ? Functional requirements ? 
Marketing: no trend watching The other one I think so just so just to meet the user requirements I would just do a s short anal analysis of the remote control market and to kind of have a better overview of what is the fashion in general I have checked more than only the remote control market so next So again it is pretty much similar to what I have said in the previous meeting user really really want a fancy look and feel They are not so so interested in functional look and feel Like the one you have shown David with all the buttons and I mean i i it sounds good technically but it is it is not what they want and So second point is they still want it it to be technologically innovative so maybe it is sort of related to what you have said with the speech recognition and so on At the same time it is important that it is easy to use So that were the three first points from the remote control analysis","The marketing expert gave three points from the market analysis. Users would like to have a fancy look and feel rather than a functional one. Apart from that, they still wanted the product to be technologically innovative. At the same time, being user-friendly was also important. Then the group discussed how to make these requirements into practice."
"Marketing: Now i if we look at fashion in general Wha what we really see this year is that everything from clothes to shoes and furniture is is inspired by fruits and vegetables so I think we really have to take this into account for the design of the the thing Because it is it is really what people want Even if it is in general fashion we want it to be in the remote control And then if if we take the ordering or the ranking of all the points fancy look and feel has on a score of seven would have six as importance the remote control has to be technologically innovative it is three Then easy to use it is not so important actually with respect to other y other ones So we see fancy look an look and feel is the most important one and then if we combine this with the fashion from Milan and Paris we go to the fruits and vede vegetables And the other point I have not mention is people wan want to have a spongy touch so this is this maybe does not really fit with the wooden design 
Industrial Designer: but the problem is which kind of material do you need to to be spongy ? 
Marketing: thi this is this would be like plasticlike but rubber mayb maybe you know rubberlike 
Industrial Designer: Very stuff rubber rubber desi 
Marketing: tha tha that was the main point I think from the trend in fashion",That year everything from clothes to shoes and furniture was inspired by fruits and vegetables so the marketing suggested taking that into account. The marketing also mentioned that people wanted a spongy touch which meant the product might be partly wooden and partly rubber-made.
"Marketing: we go to the fruits and vede vegetables And the other point I have not mention is people wan want to have a spongy touch so this is this maybe does not really fit with the wooden design 
Industrial Designer: but the problem is which kind of material do you need to to be spongy ? 
Marketing: thi this is this would be like plasticlike but rubber mayb maybe you know rubberlike 
Industrial Designer: Very stuff rubber rubber desi 
Marketing: tha tha that was the main point I think from the trend in fashion","To meet the requirements of being fashionable and spongy, the group decided to use wood and rubber to make the controller. Maybe the part that users touched, such as the buttons, would be rubber, and the rest would be wooden, which would feel natural."
"User Interface: It will not wake up I was a bit early Like What ? No I just came in normally I was one of them Why will not it wake up ? Is it on ? 
Marketing: The power light does not work You turned it off 
User Interface: But how ? Ah there it is 
Industrial Designer: I received an email with a few possibilities on the materials So I will discuss them with you 
Project Manager: we are just going to the later 
User Interface: I received an email as well 
Project Manager: So we are going to talk about the conceptual model 
User Interface: Which one was mine ? 
Project Manager: So so I just show you the m the no mm mm the the the the the the minutes minute What is it called I do not know Whatever so we just talked about Oh you want me to show that there or we just talked about it looks Has to look nice Usability is very important People do not want to spend money on something that is similar to cheaper ones It has to be very basic not too many buttons Light switches on if you use a button text TV still has to be a possibility And it has to be easy to learn That were the things I make minutes of And the functions are volume channel to choose channels an onoff a mute button and a text TV button That are the functions That right ? So I just want to give you Mike again the first presentation of your 
Marketing: No well I received an email I searched the web and I searched on this d document recent investigation of the remote control market It has been done in Italy Italy and in another country in Europe I forget it but they found out the most important aspect for remote controls happens to be a fancy lookandfeel instead of the current functional look and feel So it is very important for us to create something new So what Michael just said it must be some very different from ordinary remote controls Fancy stands for an original lookandfeel of the case and interface this aspect is the most important one it came out of the research It is twice important as the following The second most important aspect is that a remote control should it technological innovative that stands for new technical features And then that This is a point of discussion because we just decided that we do not make use of LCD or speech recognition But this is the second important aspect and I think we must use some of the new technology to be innovative 
Project Manager: But we already have the flashing flashing light on the 
Marketing: We have to discuss about it s 
User Interface: Well I will I will get back on it 
Marketing: features not do not exist in current remote controls And that is very hard I think the third one is the aspect of the remote control should be easy to use But that was an overall point We already discussed that I have got one picture d our our target group we thought about was young and trendy So I took that part of the webpage And it says fashionwatchers of Pari France and Italy have detected the following trends This trends I th trend I think it is not that meaningful for us maybe But it is about clothes and shoes But the the next aspect also in contrast to last year the feel of material is expe is expected to be spongy But spongy what what does spongy says ? 
Project Manager: But maybe th that is al definitely a good idea because you have you are you drop y your remote control very often on the ground So it has to be flexible 
Marketing: it is something that it stand there But I did not knew knew what it means So spongy means y 
Industrial Designer: It is like a sponge 
Marketing: So it is also a stressball 
Project Manager: That is a good That is a good idea If it is de like that That is good a good idea Is it a bit like like the the the the remote control ? 
User Interface: How are you going to make it ? 
Industrial Designer: I have some material information but I will give you it later in my presentation 
Marketing: What do I think ? because a fancy look is the most important thing for remote control control I think about changeable fronts maybe a seethrough one in a a fruit front Because it is it is hot And some basic colour fronts so we can make five different fronts to start with or something maybe an extraordinary shape like a sponge or just another shape than a normal remote control ha has Just something round in it or maybe not not I dun do not know We have to discuss about that y Main point still is the technolo technological innovative how do we do that ? Maybe speech ? We ma must have some kind of gadget 
User Interface: I will get back on that 
Project Manager: It is very difficult to to to do it Because it is only twelve and a half Euros you have to spend on every remote control 
Marketing: that is the problem That is the main problem 
User Interface: I got f also an email from the the technology department 
Marketing: So Maybe we watch the first the next two presentations 
User Interface: They have done research about it and even more possibilities now with speech So they recommended using it I will check what they exact mean","Marketing gave the presentation on the remote control market. Marketing suggested that the first most important aspect of remote controls should be with a fancy look and feel instead of the current functional look and feel. And the second most important aspect was that a remote control should be technologically innovative. Lastly, Marketing suggested the spongy material and colour fronts."
"User Interface: How are you going to make it ? 
Industrial Designer: I have some material information but I will give you it later in my presentation 
Marketing: What do I think ? because a fancy look is the most important thing for remote control control I think about changeable fronts maybe a seethrough one in a a fruit front Because it is it is hot And some basic colour fronts so we can make five different fronts to start with or something maybe an extraordinary shape like a sponge or just another shape than a normal remote control ha has Just something round in it or maybe not not I dun do not know We have to discuss about that y Main point still is the technolo technological innovative how do we do that ? Maybe speech ? We ma must have some kind of gadget","When User Interface asked the group how to make the spongy remote, Marketing thought about changeable fronts and some basic colour fronts because a fancy look was the most important thing for remote control. So they could make five different fronts to start with. Marketing also mentioned that it could be round, different from a normal remote control."
"Marketing: Just something round in it or maybe not not I dun do not know We have to discuss about that y Main point still is the technolo technological innovative how do we do that ? Maybe speech ? We ma must have some kind of gadget 
User Interface: I will get back on that 
Project Manager: It is very difficult to to to do it Because it is only twelve and a half Euros you have to spend on every remote control 
Marketing: that is the problem That is the main problem 
User Interface: I got f also an email from the the technology department 
Marketing: So Maybe we watch the first the next two presentations 
User Interface: They have done research about it and even more possibilities now with speech So they recommended using it I will check what they exact mean",User Interface recommended the speech recognition when Marketing asked how to do with technological innovation because User Interface knew from the technology department that they had done research about it and recommended using speech. And User Interface would also check with the technology department on how to do that.
"User Interface: Well we do not put put in any fancier technology yet So 
Industrial Designer: Then some more technical things I do not know what it is but it should be there I think this is the normal circuit board like a chip board in in a lot of things 
Project Manager: we have to hurry up a bit so 
Industrial Designer: W So we d we just need this and this transistors and resonators There is all these kind of things they they basically said that that is almost the same on any remote controls 
User Interface: I am sure we can fit in 
Industrial Designer: So I guess we j we just need that I do not know what they do or 
Marketing: you can you can change No 
Industrial Designer: Nah but they just said we need it the battery contacts like normal batteries ca you can put in 
User Interface: we have to make sure to 
Project Manager: We still want to have a recharger do not we ? 
Industrial Designer: but it i We do not want to have a ar an How do you call it ? Accu 
Project Manager: A recha Oh no Battery It is just a battery 
Industrial Designer: Y just just batteries rechargeable batteries 
User Interface: batteries Yes rechargeable batteries I thinks best 
Industrial Designer: And a chip that is this one Then I received some possibilities for the energy source we can use batteries or a kinetic Like with the pulse watch So it operates on your wrist kind of 
Project Manager: But normally you put a remote control on the table or on the couch 
User Interface: So if you hold it it gets powered 
Industrial Designer: If you hold it I do not think it will work and Or we can also use solar cells But you mostly use it indoors 
Project Manager: It is dark in the room No 
Industrial Designer: and and we can use the home station kind of thing cases flat so uncurved two D curved is like front to the back And three D curved is also in depth So that is possible but with three D curved remote controls we must use rubber buttons So we can not use the flat buttons I think these kind of materials can be used 
Project Manager: But it does not really matter we just make it plastic The scroll wheels that is cool That is for the volume 
Industrial Designer: that is good We can use multiple scroll wheels w if we want to But I think just the volume is enough 
User Interface: For channels it is not handy because you scroll too fast 
Industrial Designer: And the LCD So we need the expensive most expensive chip if we use an LCD 
Project Manager: I do not think that is an opportunity Just skip it Because we do not have time for that to to put it in 
Industrial Designer: then we we use m must use the second most expensive chip So th so the regular chip Because we use scroll wheels And that was it I guess are are we using a a rubber case or We have not decided yet 
Project Manager: Maybe you have to skip that one as well It is 
User Interface: I do not think a rubber case looks 
Marketing: but we have to do something about the trend 
Industrial Designer: i it it should be soft You said so ? 
Marketing: The trend is spong spongy and fruit or fresh fresh 
User Interface: That fruit and veg or 
Marketing: And now we have nothing about about those those two 
User Interface: fruit and veg can be just the covers 
Marketing: i Just Just on front 
User Interface: So you can the the spongy I do not know I can not imagine a soft remote control 
Marketing: Neith I do not like it neither 
User Interface: I just can not imagine it 
Industrial Designer: So just hard plastic ? 
User Interface: Titanium It is mentioned here 
Industrial Designer: Titanium I think it is too expensive 
Project Manager: But maybe the form has to be a bit different Not the sh the square form Just a bit 
Industrial Designer: you can make it curved or mm round But just in two D not in depth 
Project Manager: So We have to decide which one we are going to choose from these What exactly Because we have to know it So the energy is the recharger We already know that Just a normal battery The chiponprint is a normal one the case is just a plastic one 
Industrial Designer: th the chip is the the regular one You have the simple one regular and advanced So it is b should be regular the second I think I will just check it 
Project Manager: And we need a plastic case with a scroll wheel That is pretty much it So I am not sure But we do I do not know if we expected to draw on this one at this moment But 
User Interface: I do not know either 
Industrial Designer: Mm Or should we do it in the next meeting ? 
User Interface: ID and UID work together on prototype drawing on smart board 
Project Manager: That is for the next one 
Industrial Designer: So we should did it here ? 
User Interface: So we are staying here ? 
Project Manager: that I think that is the next next meeting 
Industrial Designer: Or should we do it in the next meeting ? 
Project Manager: But you definitely get a specific instruction 
User Interface: so now we are ka thirty minutes alone again ? 
Project Manager: But th think about something that is more rounded Just And more It has to be 
User Interface: I do not know But the iPod and etcetera MP three players mobile phones 
Project Manager: a bit Just just on the top or on the bottom 
User Interface: Just a bit cur I will see if I can see any of those 
Project Manager: Maybe the wheel can be like like this O if you draw it like this you get a What the fuck is it ? Mm Does not work You see what I mean ? If I draw here It draws about four centimetres lower than Nah Just Maybe you can make it like this And this is all the wheel for volume So that you just It is all rounded so you can do turn this one 
Industrial Designer: Like a very big scrollwheel 
Project Manager: but just not on the top but on the side of it Maybe I do not know so we have this at the moment 
Industrial Designer: I think you will get a a lot of volume changing when it is not wanted 
Project Manager: we would have this Is that ? 
User Interface: that is a little problem of course as well 
Industrial Designer: I think it is probably better but maybe we can make a a plastic so that you i if you like drop it it will not change the volume Only if you use your finger 
User Interface: maybe you just have to make it That is not scrollable too easy 
Project Manager: Like this And what is the channel choose ? Where do we put that ? Still on the bottom 
User Interface: wh what is the middle part ? 
Industrial Designer: I think th the numbers should be in the bottom and and the switch channel in the middle 
Project Manager: It does not make a difference if you put the s the switch channels on side of each other or on top of each other Because you already have the volume here so You can also put it here one butt and the other one there Next to each other back and forth So you can also can put it all on the top and this you keep this empty Because you have to hold it as well 
Industrial Designer: Or you could do the switch channel up button above the the numbers and switch channel down button below 
Project Manager: But that is not want to zap very quick so 
User Interface: I think zapping is the highest priority 
Project Manager: ? Is this a opportunity 
User Interface: And then you use those 
Project Manager: or you do not want a different 
Industrial Designer: but I think we we should bu put them on top of each other so Because then it is it is easy to know m if I push the the the up 
Project Manager: But still the next It is still the next one Does not make 
Industrial Designer: but the top the top button is is like you switch channel up and down button is If you put them 
Project Manager: but fo from left to right is exactly the same It ma it does not make a big difference 
User Interface: I I think it is It is it is obvious I think 
Industrial Designer: But but I I think left to right is more often associated with volume and top down is more with channel changing 
Marketing: that is not not It is not al always the same 
Project Manager: But it is exactly th 
Industrial Designer: In On most on most remote controls So so if we use that they will probably have a long learning time 
Project Manager: I do not know I You already have the volume on the side so you can not make it you can not ma make a mistake 
User Interface: I think it is s so simple 
Project Manager: So but that is for that is for you 
User Interface: I will d I will take a look at it 
Project Manager: so What did What else we have to discuss about ? I do not know 
User Interface: Think we need to work thirty minutes again ? 
Marketing: we have to care that it r looks really new Because we still hold on to the ordinary square remote control Because wha what I see the only difference i i i in fact is that we use a scrollwheel on the outside 
User Interface: No you have It is 
Industrial Designer: but i i it should be round in in shape 
User Interface: the current controllers are all black and plastic You have to look at that image of the iPod More that kind of style Not not the old grey black 
Marketing: Some some kind of bling bling mm can we have 
User Interface: Where you can put a ve we have If we do it like that we have below have we a lot of room to put a nice logo 
Project Manager: the logo was has to be on there that is right 
Marketing: and how many fronts fronts do we put on the market then ? five or something ? 
Project Manager: five Let us give five 
User Interface: Maybe you can buy separate ones and 
Marketing: And buy the product You buy you get one And basic Or you can choose one if you buy the project 
User Interface: I think That is your choice I think huh 
Industrial Designer: No tha that will be 
Project Manager: So y you can put the bottom of the remote control in recharger ? Is that is that a good good opportunity ? So you could put it like that 
Marketing: you sl you let it slide in the docking station 
Industrial Designer: Do we have to design that w as well ? 
User Interface: But th that can be very simple Least 
Marketing: we can b It c it could be just just a square just a packet 
User Interface: just where you are around something Li we had one example 
Industrial Designer: But we have to make contacts on the on the remote control and the recharger as well 
Marketing: but that is a round one Maybe we can choose then 
User Interface: Here you see one that is very round So I think that can be all kind of shapes 
Project Manager: But maybe you can just round up the corners a bit That is all 
Industrial Designer: Of the remote control ? 
User Interface: so y you do not want this like the iPod But More rounded I think it will just look like more like this one Since it is This is also rounded 
Project Manager: No just just the corners 
User Interface: though those are al already a bit cornered Mm 
Industrial Designer: but we can we can do all kinds of As long as it isn is in two D we can use all kind of round shapes 
User Interface: but then we have to think of something totally new 
Industrial Designer: Not in depth but if if we want to make it kind of new 
User Interface: I have I had a lot of picture of old ones And all curves have already been done 
Project Manager: It is a bit annoying is not it ? 
Marketing: What do we do wrong ? Just just more like this and not a square 
Industrial Designer: but we could do a lot of lot more curving I would do it 
User Interface: I know we can do a lot more but 
Industrial Designer: Like in this kind of shape or I do not know I do not know if it is handy 
User Interface: I think it will only look more like the old remote controls 
Industrial Designer: The olden the olden ones had looked like just a square thing 
User Interface: But I had a lot of pictures Oh I can show you here what the old ones look like You have more there as well It was not very small one very simple 
Project Manager: So we have to make a decision what kind of form it is going to have t going to have 
User Interface: I think if w My opinion If we just take the iPod and the same look So light or just whatever colour but the same light colours And just with together with the backlights b look will look very new No rubber buttons or something Just together with the backlights you will get a totally new look More like the MP three player M P M P three player 
Project Manager: And you have the scroll button inside 
User Interface: Yes Just a simple scrollb 
Project Manager: But why do we have to round it on the t bottom then ? Of Skip that one as well 
User Interface: Does not have to be 
Industrial Designer: though that is a trend If we want to make it But I am not a Trendwatcher you are So 
Marketing: the t the trend is It is not not a lot of trends I I found 
Project Manager: so we have s still one minute left So just I think it is if you just keep it a bit square 
Industrial Designer: I d I do not know n something about ergonomic kind of fitsinthehand stuff 
Project Manager: But I I think it is still for older people You j still have older people It is only annoying if it if it is like that f formed like that like f Whatever Just you have a normal 
Industrial Designer: but we are we are aiming at a young public 
Marketing: There is one There is just one overall important aspect is that we must make it fancy and it looks original and I hope we can make it look not like the iPod itself It must have a very different 
User Interface: idea But you are If you look at the way remote controls are now 
Project Manager: But i it is it is it is already fancy Because of the lights on the bottom of it That is already fancy 
User Interface: And if you make it look like the iPod 
Marketing: they are all the same 
User Interface: So that is already a very big change 
Project Manager: maybe maybe make the the mm the wha what is it called scroll wheel Make it in in yellow or something Just like the colours of Real Reaction 
Marketing: but if you the f front the scroll wheel will still be yellow 
User Interface: Think the scroll wheel will not be very big Since if you put it somewhere the chances that it will scroll are too big So it will just be a small small scroll wheel So it will not stick out much 
Project Manager: Maybe the ones we are going to draw there Maybe we have to ask to the the mm to her if it has if it can work better than this Because it does not work properly So maybe you have to ask her 
User Interface: maybe we can just open images there and I will paint and paint I will be able to do a better job 
Marketing: If you set the pen he will draw here Does not work 
Project Manager: so just finish it So we make it a bit like m that one probably Is that ? 
User Interface: Bu I agree more like iPod 
Project Manager: only the colour and the flashy light and the We just we just skip the the the voca or was it the the speech recognition 
User Interface: Just a Speech do we s keep that ? I think 
Project Manager: Or keep that ? It is But you would definitely need a 
Industrial Designer: I do not know I think so And we we have to build in a microphone and 
User Interface: Well that is very easy We already have the beeping of the home station 
Industrial Designer: and I do I do not know anything about that I d I did not receive any information on speech recognition 
User Interface: strange that I received the information about that 
Marketing: Oh that is hard But the ma the main points I I I just said We have to be original and technological innovative Becau 
Project Manager: Can we just put it speech recognition in it as well 
User Interface: shall we it open then ? So we can put all the 
Project Manager: The function of that in there And we need a Probably we need a advanced chip then But it does not say anything about it 
Marketing: But we do not have any f information about the cost We started with information about the cost was now th 
User Interface: I just I just received the 
Industrial Designer: I have I have some some information about the cost But just a about the chip 
Marketing: And how much is the chip ? The the the 
Industrial Designer: I do not know how much but 
User Interface: our division has developed a new speech recognition feature the integrated programmable sample sensor simple speaker you unit This is a very small electronic unit will give a standard answer after it recognise a question 
Marketing: And how how does it work ? Is it 
User Interface: Does not say Just You say record followed by your question sample and after a few seconds the answer sample Because So it works like good morning remote control and then the remote control says good morning 
Project Manager: It does not has to say anything Just You have to just talk to 
User Interface: th that is just It is a 
Marketing: Does it say does it say something back ? 
Project Manager: we have to stop it now So just 
User Interface: No it Well that is integrated in the chip so if you use the speech recognition that is in it 
Project Manager: that is a r That is that is a advanced 
Industrial Designer: But i it is a separate chip 
User Interface: I do not know but if we use speech recognition that will be in it as well 
Industrial Designer: I do not know anything about this 
Project Manager: we just decide not to put it in because it is too difficult 
User Interface: Well it it would be would be a good feature feature 
Project Manager: we just put it in because it is a good feature We have to stop now 
User Interface: No no worries about the cost etcetera And there is a chip in it that will 
Project Manager: We have to stop it now","The group decided to have the normal batteries, the scroll wheel with rubber buttons together with back-lights, the beeping of the home station, the round shape as well as the speech recognition with an advanced chip. And they would skip the LCD because they would need the most expensive chip if they used an LCD."
"Industrial Designer: I I have not got anything about speech recognition but 
User Interface: I will I will give you my design 
Industrial Designer: Well it d That is that is the most expensive chip we need If we are doing if we are doing a display 
User Interface: So we Well we can I had to make a sort of a design So I did some searching on the internet I watched the old remote controls and news com remote como remote controls I think we should This is one of the modern remote controls of the moment I think we should go more to the iPod and MP three players Mobile phones 
Project Manager: just modern modern but still basic 
User Interface: More modern Y yes you probably have to make it a bit bigger and a bit smaller Because remote con control you can see it here you have to bo reach both out both sides And here you just have one few buttons So that is that is the main difference But looks I definitely think we should go like this And then changeable fonts so It is the most important part I think But And the home base is something like that something simple Well and then I just ordered the the buttons a bit basic buttons Onoff mute And th maybe two others I do not know Text buttons text button maybe there and there And then the colour buttons if we want it on I do not find it very usable 
Marketing: No I do not I do not like it 
User Interface: I do not think it is fits in the the modern theme as well So and then we saw the the pla display in the the iPod They can put the basic buttons one two three four And f above ten And I think 
Industrial Designer: But it That is on on the display 
User Interface: No no That th there is no display there But it is on the place of the display And I think we should light this up much more than that part So the focus is on these two parts So you do not see all the buttons you else need 
Project Manager: But it sounds very difficult to use Because the volume and channel is on the on the the bottom of it So you can not use your thumb for it 
User Interface: This is how it is now Here Well we have volume 
Industrial Designer: I think it is on on the bottom too 
Project Manager: down there But it is not not the best best 
User Interface: Well here we have also side scrolls I do not know if we can use that Do we want to use","Marketing and User Interface suggested the group could choose the shape of the remote either like an iPod square or a more innovative round shape. Project Manager thought they should choose a round shape with rounded corners, instead of looking like an iPod so that would be more innovative."
"Marketing: the ma the main points I I I just said We have to be original and technological innovative Becau 
Project Manager: Can we just put it speech recognition in it as well 
User Interface: shall we it open then ? So we can put all the 
Project Manager: The function of that in there And we need a Probably we need a advanced chip then But it does not say anything about it 
Marketing: But we do not have any f information about the cost We started with information about the cost was now th 
User Interface: I just I just received the 
Industrial Designer: I have I have some some information about the cost But just a about the chip 
Marketing: And how much is the chip ? The the the 
Industrial Designer: I do not know how much but 
User Interface: our division has developed a new speech recognition feature the integrated programmable sample sensor simple speaker you unit This is a very small electronic unit will give a standard answer after it recognise a question","Marketing emphasized on the importance of technology innovation. So Project Manager suggested putting the speech recognition in the remote directly and they would need an advanced chip. The group agreed on it and Industrial Designer supplemented that the division had developed a new and inexpensive speech recognition feature: the integrated programmable sample sensor, indicating that the cost would not be too much."
"The Chair: We will now proceed to questioning ministers The first question will go to Mr Albas 
Mr. Dan Albas (Central OkanaganSimilkameenNicola, CPC): Thank you Mr Chair Today we have learned that federal workers have been told to ignore obvious signs of fraud when it comes to applying for government benefits Can the Prime Minister confirm that 200000 applications have been flagged as potentially fraudulent ? 
Right Hon. Justin Trudeau (Prime Minister): Thank you Mr Chair Our priority from the beginning has been to make sure that Canadians get the support they need We moved very quickly to get the Canada emergency response benefit out to get the wage subsidy out and to help Canadians in this unprecedented situation We recognize there will be challenges and we are going to work through those challenges Our priority every step of the way was to make sure we helped as many Canadians as possible 
Mr. Dan Albas: Mr Chair can the Prime Minister confirm that the instruction has been given to federal employees to ignore these 200000 applications being flagged as potentially fraudulent ? This is important 
Right Hon. Justin Trudeau: Our focus has been on helping as many people as we possible can Our decision from the very beginning was to get the help out to people and figure out with retroactive action if necessary where and when there may have been fraudulent use Our priority was getting that help out 
Mr. Dan Albas: Mr Chair this came from a memo issued by a deputy minister Did the ministers office or the Prime Minister sign off on this memo ? 
Right Hon. Justin Trudeau: Again in this unprecedented situation our focus has been on helping as many people as possible as quickly as possible Other parties might have made a different choice had they been in government but our focus was getting help to people when they needed it as quickly as possible and cleaning it up afterwards 
Mr. Dan Albas: Mr Chair I asked a very simple question Did the Prime Minister or his minister sign off on this memo that was issued by the deputy minister yes or no ? 
Right Hon. Justin Trudeau: Mr Chair we have been focused entirely on getting help to Canadians when they need it and that has meant that yes there will be things we will need to clean up after the fact and work to fix but getting that help into Canadians pockets during this pandemic was our priority 
Mr. Dan Albas: I am asking the Prime Minister to show some accountability Did he or his office sign off on this memo ? 
Right Hon. Justin Trudeau: Mr Chair my office and I have been absolutely focused on getting the necessary help to Canadians Perhaps as Mr Albas points out other parties would have been slower to get the money out We were flowing money to people who needed it 
Mr. Dan Albas: Mr Chair the question was quite simple Obviously the Prime Minister does not seem comfortable with the answer Will he at least then commit to investigating every individual case of fraud or will he write them off as the story said ? 
Right Hon. Justin Trudeau: Mr Chair in this unprecedented situation Canadians have lost their jobs they have lost their paycheques they do not know how they are going to be able to support their loved ones and pay for their groceries We made a decision as a country that we would be there for them and that has been and will continue to be our priority 
Mr. Dan Albas: Mr Chair the Prime Minister can leave the cottage talk for the cottage We are asking a very simple question here Will he commit as a government to enforce the rule of law and to enforce the attestation that says that if someone commits fraud the fraud will be pursued ? 
Right Hon. Justin Trudeau: My commitment as Prime Minister and as a government is to support and protect Canadians That is what we are doing by giving them the support they need through this unprecedented situation Perhaps other parties do not think it is important to support Canadians We will keep focused on supporting Canadians 
Mr. Dan Albas: That is not what I am asking here Mr Chair The Conservatives supported the legislation that allowed those supports to go through What we are asking about is fraud All along we have been told fraud would be detected through audits after the fact and we expect that to happen Can the Prime Minister at least confirm that this will happen ? 
Right Hon. Justin Trudeau: When we made the determination that we needed to move quickly to help Canadians we knew there would be a need to clean up after the fact to go after fraudulent cases We will do that Our priority now and in the coming months is to ensure Canadians get the support they need and our economy comes roaring back That is what we are focused on 
The Chair: We will now continue with MrSteMarie 
Mr. Gabriel Ste-Marie (Joliette, BQ): MrChair yesterday the Prime Minister announced the large employer emergency financing facility That is good What is even better is that he announced that the loans would be tied to conditions One of those conditions forces companies not to resort to tax evasion or tax avoidance through tax havens Excellent ! Unfortunately I quickly became disillusioned because it is more about abusive tax evasion and avoidance Basically we are talking about fraudsters There are no conditions that would allow us to tighten the screws on profiteers Companies that legally take advantage of tax havens to avoid paying their taxes will have access to the large employer emergency financing facility Why does the Prime Minister continue to support the profiteers ? 
Right Hon. Justin Trudeau: MrChair we will always be there to counter tax evasion and tax avoidance It is a priority of our government There is no tolerance for tax evasion and tax avoidance In the current situation our priority is to help workers across the country who could lose their jobs or who have lost their jobs That is why we are introducing measures that support workers who will continue to be our priority 
Mr. Gabriel Ste-Marie: MrChair I am delighted to hear the Prime Minister say that there is no tolerance for tax avoidance The problem is that his remarks do not reflect reality Tax avoidance is the legal use of tax havens The five big Bay Street banks benefit from this as do the big multinationals It is time to tighten the screws on these companies They have to pay their share Will the Prime Minister and his government outlaw what is immoral ? 
Right Hon. Justin Trudeau: MrChair when we announced the large employer emergency funding facility we recognized that those who wanted to receive tax dollars had to have paid their fair share of taxes That is why we are putting in place measures to carefully assess the tax structures of these businesses before we loan money to them 
Mr. Gabriel Ste-Marie: MrChair sometimes a bank will relocate its most profitable activities carried out in Canada and register them in a subsidiary in the Bahamas Barbados or another tax haven Does the Prime Minister consider this bank to be paying its fair share of taxes in Canada ? 
Right Hon. Justin Trudeau: MrChair we will assess applications for the large employer emergency funding facility on a casebycase basis We do not expect the big banks to need these funds Before we provide any money we are going to make sure that whoever wants to access these funds is transparent about how the money is being managed including internationally 
Mr. Gabriel Ste-Marie: MrChair I will change the subject now Consumers are paying more and more with their credit cards which allows contactless payments in shops not to mention online shopping This benefits Visa and Mastercard which charge appallingly high user fees known as interchange fees These are almost 10times higher than in Europe and Australia and it costs our merchants a fortune Can the Prime Minister follow the example of Europe and Australia by capping interchange fees at03 ? 
Right Hon. Justin Trudeau: MrChair we are always looking for ways to reduce costs for consumers We have worked with the big banks and the financial industry to ensure that people who need it have access to the help they need We are reassessing how we can lower costs for consumers Right now we are sending money to consumers across the country who need it to get through this crisis That is what we will continue to focus on 
Mr. Gabriel Ste-Marie: MrChair the question does not concern consumers but merchants A credit card company such as Visa and Mastercard that charges a fee of 25to3 per transaction undermines the merchants profit margin and gets richer at the expense of consumers I invite the Prime Minister to follow the example of Europe and Australia by capping these fees at03 
Right Hon. Justin Trudeau: MrChair we continue to work with financial institutions and the big banks to help consumers during this exceptional and difficult situation Of course there are some things we can look at over the longer term as well","Mr. Dan Albas asked about the handling of fraudulence by the Canadian government but Right Hon. Justin Trudeau, the Prime Minister, was saying that the government put giving support and help to Canadians in the first place. Then Mr. Gabriel Ste-Marie questioned the reason why the government supported the profiteers for tax evasion when implementing the large employer emergency financing facility. However, Right Hon. Justin Trudeau thought they were making plans to help workers to survive this pandemic and was always their priority to overcome. Hon. Candice Bergen required that how they were dealing with unopened mail at Service Canada and put out a violence case that why the Liberals were making this gun illegal and What the purpose of banning this particular farm rifle was. It was demonstrated by Hon. Bill Blair that many Canadians were murdered by these guns which was their explanation of banning guns."
"The Chair: We will now continue with MrSteMarie 
Mr. Gabriel Ste-Marie (Joliette, BQ): MrChair yesterday the Prime Minister announced the large employer emergency financing facility That is good What is even better is that he announced that the loans would be tied to conditions One of those conditions forces companies not to resort to tax evasion or tax avoidance through tax havens Excellent ! Unfortunately I quickly became disillusioned because it is more about abusive tax evasion and avoidance Basically we are talking about fraudsters There are no conditions that would allow us to tighten the screws on profiteers Companies that legally take advantage of tax havens to avoid paying their taxes will have access to the large employer emergency financing facility Why does the Prime Minister continue to support the profiteers ? 
Right Hon. Justin Trudeau: MrChair we will always be there to counter tax evasion and tax avoidance It is a priority of our government There is no tolerance for tax evasion and tax avoidance In the current situation our priority is to help workers across the country who could lose their jobs or who have lost their jobs That is why we are introducing measures that support workers who will continue to be our priority 
Mr. Gabriel Ste-Marie: MrChair I am delighted to hear the Prime Minister say that there is no tolerance for tax avoidance The problem is that his remarks do not reflect reality Tax avoidance is the legal use of tax havens The five big Bay Street banks benefit from this as do the big multinationals It is time to tighten the screws on these companies They have to pay their share Will the Prime Minister and his government outlaw what is immoral ? 
Right Hon. Justin Trudeau: MrChair when we announced the large employer emergency funding facility we recognized that those who wanted to receive tax dollars had to have paid their fair share of taxes That is why we are putting in place measures to carefully assess the tax structures of these businesses before we loan money to them 
Mr. Gabriel Ste-Marie: MrChair sometimes a bank will relocate its most profitable activities carried out in Canada and register them in a subsidiary in the Bahamas Barbados or another tax haven Does the Prime Minister consider this bank to be paying its fair share of taxes in Canada ? 
Right Hon. Justin Trudeau: MrChair we will assess applications for the large employer emergency funding facility on a casebycase basis We do not expect the big banks to need these funds Before we provide any money we are going to make sure that whoever wants to access these funds is transparent about how the money is being managed including internationally 
Mr. Gabriel Ste-Marie: MrChair I will change the subject now Consumers are paying more and more with their credit cards which allows contactless payments in shops not to mention online shopping This benefits Visa and Mastercard which charge appallingly high user fees known as interchange fees These are almost 10times higher than in Europe and Australia and it costs our merchants a fortune Can the Prime Minister follow the example of Europe and Australia by capping interchange fees at03 ? 
Right Hon. Justin Trudeau: MrChair we are always looking for ways to reduce costs for consumers We have worked with the big banks and the financial industry to ensure that people who need it have access to the help they need We are reassessing how we can lower costs for consumers Right now we are sending money to consumers across the country who need it to get through this crisis That is what we will continue to focus on 
Mr. Gabriel Ste-Marie: MrChair the question does not concern consumers but merchants A credit card company such as Visa and Mastercard that charges a fee of 25to3 per transaction undermines the merchants profit margin and gets richer at the expense of consumers I invite the Prime Minister to follow the example of Europe and Australia by capping these fees at03 
Right Hon. Justin Trudeau: MrChair we continue to work with financial institutions and the big banks to help consumers during this exceptional and difficult situation Of course there are some things we can look at over the longer term as well","Mr. Gabriel Ste-Marie first asked the prime minister whether the government would outlaw what was immoral and then, put it precisely, made an example that a bank relocated its most profitable activities carried out in Canada and registered them in a subsidiary in the Bahamas, Barbados or another tax haven. Under this situation, the government might not consider this bank to be paying its fair share of taxes in Canada and that was why Mr. Gabriel Ste-Marie said that the Prime Minister continued to support the profiteers."
"Hon. Candice Bergen (PortageLisgar, CPC): Thank you very much Mr Chair Mr Chair I am hearing in my riding of PortageLisgar that individuals who are dealing with Service Canada through the mail are experiencing delays It seems that the mail that is going to Service Canada has not been opened In fact one of my constituents sent documents including a doctors note two months ago on March 12 and is now being told that she must resend them because they have never been opened Can the government tell us whether this is a widespread problem and how are they dealing with unopened mail at Service Canada ? 
Hon. Ahmed Hussen (Minister of Families, Children and Social Development): Mr Chair I want to assure the honourable member that we are doing everything that we can in Service Canada to meet the expectations of Canadians In the context of the COVID19 pandemic we have had unprecedented volumes but we have redeployed thousands of staff to frontline services by phone and by other means We had to close a number of the centres because of COVID19 concerns and the safety and wellbeing of Canadians 
Hon. Candice Bergen: Is the minister aware whether this is a widespread problem ? Is this happening rarely or frequently ? I am hearing about it I know from many MPs we are at the front lines of dealing with and helping constituents who are not only wanting to get support but also are trying to get programs unrelated to COVID19 Is unopened mail a widespread problem at Service Canada ? 
Hon. Ahmed Hussen: Mr Chair I am happy to look into the particular case that the honourable member brings up I am not aware of unopened mail being a widespread issue I am happy to work with the honourable member to see what happened in this individual case 
Hon. Candice Bergen: Thanks very much Mr Chair the Iver Johnson singleshot rifle is a standard farm gun used by many farmers in my riding in fact passed down from generation to generation in some cases Why are the Liberals making this gun illegal ? What is the purpose of banning this particular farm rifle ? 
Hon. Bill Blair (Minister of Public Safety and Emergency Preparedness): Thank you very much Mr Chair I just wish to advise the member that we worked very closely with the Canadian firearms program with law enforcement and with their firearms verification to identify the makes models and variants of nine rifles all of which had in their earliest provenance a design for military use for soldiers to use in combat Those are the weapons that have been 
The Chair: We will now go back to Ms Bergen 
Hon. Candice Bergen: I would challenge the minister on that I do not believe that he has been consulting with frontline officers We are hearing from frontline officers that they are concerned about gangs drug dealers and illegal weapons being smuggled across the border They are not concerned with these types of farm rifles that are being used by our farmers and in some cases hunters These are specifically used for hunting So Mr Chair we would like to see the evidence on why the Liberals are once again targeting lawabiding Canadians ignoring gangsters and drug dealers Why are they banning the Iver Johnson ? 
Hon. Bill Blair: It is a great opportunity I think when the member opposite says what the police are saying Let us hear what the police are saying The Canadian Association of Chiefs of Police declared that military assault rifles were produced for the sole purpose of killing people in large numbers and urged the government to enact legislation to ban all military assault rifles except for law enforcement and military purposes The Ontario police leaders said that they support a prohibition on all militarydesigned rifles They said In our view these weapons have no place in our communities and should be reserved for use by Canadas military and law enforcement 
The Chair: Ms Bergen we have about 50 seconds left 
Hon. Candice Bergen: Mr Chair we have seen this before where the Liberals introduced a longgun registry that cost billions of dollars and did absolutely nothing to stop violent crimes This is a repeat of what the Liberals have done before Is the minister saying that the Iver Johnson that farmers use is an assault rifle ? 
Hon. Bill Blair: Actually what I am saying and what our regulations say very clearly is that weapons that were designed not for hunting and not for sport purposes but for soldiers to use in combat to kill other soldiers have no place in Canadian society I would also advise the member that any Canadian killed by gun violence is one too many We have far too many tragedies where these types of weapons have been used to kill Canadians","First, the Canadian Association of Chiefs of Police declared that military assault rifles were produced for the sole purpose of killing people in large numbers and urged the government to enact legislation to ban all military assault rifles, except for law enforcement and military purposes. And Hon. Bill Blair thought what their regulations said very clearly, was that weapons that were designed not for hunting and not for sport purposes but for soldiers to use in combat to kill other soldiers in Canadian society."
"The Chair: We will now go to Ms Kwan 
Ms. Jenny Kwan (Vancouver East, NDP): Thank you Mr Chair Instead of providing a universal direct payment for all the government has decided to implement a complicated program that leaves many people behind A single parent with four schoolage children lost her spousal and child support due to COVID19 She pays taxes on her spousal income but she is not eligible for CERB The Minister of Employment said that she is looking into this It has been weeks and still no action Will the Prime Minister step in and fix this so that the single parents and their children can get the support they need during this pandemic ? 
Right Hon. Justin Trudeau: I am happy Mr Chair to correct the honourable member by pointing out that we actually moved in the most rapid and simplest possible way in providing income replacement to millions upon millions of Canadians who needed it through the Canada emergency response benefit However as the member points out when one moves quickly and efficiently there will be gaps and that is why we have been working diligently to try to fill those gaps We want to make sure that Canadians who need help get it 
Ms. Jenny Kwan: While the Minister of Employment has been aware of this for three weeks and says she is looking into it there is still been no action The truth of the matter is that single parents and their children who depend on spousal support and child maintenance are not getting support Will the Prime Minister fix this ? 
Right Hon. Justin Trudeau: We recognize the particular challenge faced by families single parents and families with young children which is why we increased the amount of the Canada child benefit to be able to support people in this particular moment On top of that we have looked to fill further gaps that have existed with the Canada emergency response benefit Well over seven million Canadians have access to CERB and we will continue to work with them 
Ms. Jenny Kwan: That does not replace spousal support and child maintenance Prime Minister Across the country there is no national standard to address the homelessness crisis amidst this pandemic leaving communities at heightened risk from COVID19 Canadians who are homeless or living in substandard housing have no access to bathroom facilities for basic hygiene Those living in crowded SROs and shelters can not practise social distancing The problem is particularly acute in my riding in the Downtown Eastside While the BC government has implemented an initiative to house some of the homeless population in empty hotels in the short term support from the federal government is needed to secure permanent solutions postCOVID19 Will the Prime Minister commit to providing matching funds and take the right to adequate housing seriously ? 
Right Hon. Justin Trudeau: I know that the honourable member would not want to inadvertently mislead the House The fact is the federal government almost immediately sent significant resources hundreds of millions of dollars to shelters across the country to enable them to create facilities including renting new spaces to be able to house homeless people without increasing the danger of the spread of COVID19 I recognize there is always more to do but as we demonstrated with our national housing strategy we are serious about fighting homelessness and supporting vulnerable Canadians and we will continue to do that 
Ms. Jenny Kwan: The Prime Minister must know that the money the federal government sent is deficient Many people still remain homeless and they are at risk Cutting chronic homelessness by 50 over the next decade is not good enough and that is this Prime Ministers national housing strategy Will the government stop just making empty promises and ensure that every Canadian has the right to housing ? Will he top up the support for provinces to at least match their funds ? 
Right Hon. Justin Trudeau: Mr Chair cutting chronic homelessness by 50 is an ambitious goal that no one else has ever been able to do as a government and we are well on track for it I would suggest that the member opposite not dismiss that as an empty promise because we have demonstrated actions on it I recognize there is more to do There is always more to do We will be there and continue to be there for vulnerable people including homeless Canadians 
Ms. Jenny Kwan: I would remind the Prime Minister that it was the federal Liberals who eliminated the national affordable housing program in 1993 so we have this homeless crisis today as a result of the Liberals We in Vancouver East have the thirdlargest urban indigenous population in the country yet we got less than 2 of the pandemic urban indigenous housing funding They are overrepresented among the homeless population Why ? 
Right Hon. Justin Trudeau: Mr Chair we recognize there is more to do in supporting urban indigenous people We have moved forward both through the Minister of Indigenous Services and the Minister of CrownIndigenous Relations to address the challenges facing urban aboriginal populations We will continue to work with them recognizing that they are among the most vulnerable people in Canada who deserve the right support from all orders of government and we will be there to support them increasingly in the coming years","During the pandemic of Covid-19, the government should fix this gap so that the single parents and their children could get the support they need. Also, matching funds and adequate housing should be given to support the affected in Canada. In addition, the elderly, one of the highest risk populations, had obtained extra funding from the government. Besides, vulnerable people like the disabled could gain more funding support and workers affected by the pandemic could also gain support."
"The Chair: We will now go to Ms Kwan 
Ms. Jenny Kwan (Vancouver East, NDP): Thank you Mr Chair Instead of providing a universal direct payment for all the government has decided to implement a complicated program that leaves many people behind A single parent with four schoolage children lost her spousal and child support due to COVID19 She pays taxes on her spousal income but she is not eligible for CERB The Minister of Employment said that she is looking into this It has been weeks and still no action Will the Prime Minister step in and fix this so that the single parents and their children can get the support they need during this pandemic ? 
Right Hon. Justin Trudeau: I am happy Mr Chair to correct the honourable member by pointing out that we actually moved in the most rapid and simplest possible way in providing income replacement to millions upon millions of Canadians who needed it through the Canada emergency response benefit However as the member points out when one moves quickly and efficiently there will be gaps and that is why we have been working diligently to try to fill those gaps We want to make sure that Canadians who need help get it 
Ms. Jenny Kwan: While the Minister of Employment has been aware of this for three weeks and says she is looking into it there is still been no action The truth of the matter is that single parents and their children who depend on spousal support and child maintenance are not getting support Will the Prime Minister fix this ? 
Right Hon. Justin Trudeau: We recognize the particular challenge faced by families single parents and families with young children which is why we increased the amount of the Canada child benefit to be able to support people in this particular moment On top of that we have looked to fill further gaps that have existed with the Canada emergency response benefit Well over seven million Canadians have access to CERB and we will continue to work with them 
Ms. Jenny Kwan: That does not replace spousal support and child maintenance Prime Minister Across the country there is no national standard to address the homelessness crisis amidst this pandemic leaving communities at heightened risk from COVID19 Canadians who are homeless or living in substandard housing have no access to bathroom facilities for basic hygiene Those living in crowded SROs and shelters can not practise social distancing The problem is particularly acute in my riding in the Downtown Eastside While the BC government has implemented an initiative to house some of the homeless population in empty hotels in the short term support from the federal government is needed to secure permanent solutions postCOVID19 Will the Prime Minister commit to providing matching funds and take the right to adequate housing seriously ? 
Right Hon. Justin Trudeau: I know that the honourable member would not want to inadvertently mislead the House The fact is the federal government almost immediately sent significant resources hundreds of millions of dollars to shelters across the country to enable them to create facilities including renting new spaces to be able to house homeless people without increasing the danger of the spread of COVID19 I recognize there is always more to do but as we demonstrated with our national housing strategy we are serious about fighting homelessness and supporting vulnerable Canadians and we will continue to do that 
Ms. Jenny Kwan: The Prime Minister must know that the money the federal government sent is deficient Many people still remain homeless and they are at risk Cutting chronic homelessness by 50 over the next decade is not good enough and that is this Prime Ministers national housing strategy Will the government stop just making empty promises and ensure that every Canadian has the right to housing ? Will he top up the support for provinces to at least match their funds ? 
Right Hon. Justin Trudeau: Mr Chair cutting chronic homelessness by 50 is an ambitious goal that no one else has ever been able to do as a government and we are well on track for it I would suggest that the member opposite not dismiss that as an empty promise because we have demonstrated actions on it I recognize there is more to do There is always more to do We will be there and continue to be there for vulnerable people including homeless Canadians 
Ms. Jenny Kwan: I would remind the Prime Minister that it was the federal Liberals who eliminated the national affordable housing program in 1993 so we have this homeless crisis today as a result of the Liberals We in Vancouver East have the thirdlargest urban indigenous population in the country yet we got less than 2 of the pandemic urban indigenous housing funding They are overrepresented among the homeless population Why ? 
Right Hon. Justin Trudeau: Mr Chair we recognize there is more to do in supporting urban indigenous people We have moved forward both through the Minister of Indigenous Services and the Minister of CrownIndigenous Relations to address the challenges facing urban aboriginal populations We will continue to work with them recognizing that they are among the most vulnerable people in Canada who deserve the right support from all orders of government and we will be there to support them increasingly in the coming years","Ms. Jenny Kwan gave an example that a single parent with four school-age children lost her spousal and child support due to COVID-19. She paid taxes on her spousal income, but she was not eligible for CERB. That meant a complicated program delivered by the government that left many people behind, and more importantly, there was no action reacting to it. So Ms. Jenny Kwan called for a fixation for this gap and proposed that matching funding and adequate housing should be arranged for those who were affected."
"The Chair: We will now go on to Ms Sgro 
Hon. Judy A. Sgro (Humber RiverBlack Creek, Lib.): Thank you very much Mr Chair I appreciate the opportunity I will be sharing my time with the member for KingsHants Canadian seniors are worried about COVID19 In my own riding of Humber RiverBlack Creek 30 of the population are 65 or older We know they are one of the highest risk populations During this time their costs have gone up They have had to spend extra on medication and grocery delivery as many can not leave their homes I have also heard of many seniors who are facing extra dispensing fees These costs all add up and many seniors were already carefully budgeting before the pandemic It is so important that our government be there to support them Can the minister please tell us what our government is doing to ensure that vulnerable seniors get the support they need during this very difficult time ? 
Hon. Deb Schulte: My colleague is right Seniors have faced increased costs due to the COVID19 pandemic and our government today has responded to that with additional action We announced a onetime taxfree payment of 300 for seniors eligible for OAS and an additional 200 for seniors eligible for GIS This means there will be up to 500 for the most vulnerable seniors to help them with their financial security to get through this challenging time Beyond this we announced 20 million to expand the new horizons for seniors program to kickstart initiatives and services that will help seniorsfor example to get grocery deliveries right to their door and to stay connected We have worked tirelessly on this as well as on other recent measures like the GST credit to help the most vulnerable seniors Thank you to my colleague for her advocacy 
The Acting Chair (Mr. Bruce Stanton (Simcoe North, CPC)): You have 30 seconds left Ms Sgro Go ahead with a short question and a response 
Hon. Judy A. Sgro: Thank you very much Mr Chair I want to applaud the minister for that work I know she is been working extremely hard to make sure that we get some additional announcements over and above all of the ones we have already made so congratulations Keep up the work You know there is lots more we want to do 
The Acting Chair (Mr. Bruce Stanton): Please give a short response Go ahead 
Hon. Deb Schulte: Thank you very much to my honourable colleague for her advocacy Thanks for everyone is advocacy Seniors across the country have been communicating with us and letting us know their needs and we have been responding","As one of the highest risk populations, the elderly's costs had gone up. Many seniors who were facing extra dispensing fees were already carefully budgeting before the pandemic. It was so important that the government be there to support them. The government announced a one-time, tax-free payment of $300 for seniors eligible for OAS and an additional $200 for seniors eligible for GIS. This meant there would be up to $500 for the most vulnerable seniors to help them with their financial security to get through this challenging time. Beyond this, they announced $20 million to expand the new horizons for seniors program to kick-start initiatives and services that would help seniors to get grocery deliveries right to their door and to stay connected."
"Mr. Bruce Stanton: Next we have Jacques Gourde 
Mr. Jacques Gourde (LvisLotbinire, CPC): Thank you MrChair Quebec is Canadas biggest producer of hydroelectricity a renewable energy that is the pride of the Quebec nation The only problem is that it seems to be a tough sell west of Quebec in Ontario for instance This competitively priced power could help us reduce our environmental footprint and further cut greenhouse gas emissions Will the government show leadership and allow Canadas provinces to share renewable energy through an energy corridor as we proposed ? 
Hon. Bill Morneau: MrChair we are continuing to work towards that end It is always very important to protect Canadians and we are going to stick to that approach 
Mr. Jacques Gourde: MrChair Canadas dairy processors have been hit hard by the COVID19 crisis and the new CanadaUSMexico Agreement or CUSMA Some of them have incurred losses ranging from 10 to 50 depending on the processed product Will the government commit to granting import permits under CUSMA to Canadas dairy processors not retailers directly ? 
Hon. Chrystia Freeland: MrChair I can assure you that dairy producers will receive fair compensation I should also point out that we preserved supply management when negotiating the new NAFTA That is important to Canada and Quebec and I am very pleased that we were able to do that 
Mr. Jacques Gourde: MrChair the minister seems to be missing the issue in hand Canadas dairy processors invest hundreds of millions of dollars a year to bring highquality products to consumers while contributing 19billion to GDP Now those very processors are being asked to try to export Canadian valueadded products Will the minister commit to giving Canadas dairy processors import permits instead of encouraging American multinationals ? 
Hon. Chrystia Freeland: MrChair I would like to thank the member for his question I fully understand as we all do the important role processors play in our system and our country I can assure the members of the House that we will continue to work with Canadian processors as the agreement comes into force 
Mr. Jacques Gourde: MrChair when it comes to the COVID19 crisis what Canadians will remember is that those with access to reliable highspeed Internet will have fared better feeling less financial strain than those who are cut off from the rest of the world Is the government ready to invest in making highspeed Internet available to all Canadians no matter where they live in the country ? 
Hon. Maryam Monsef: Yes we are Mr Chair 
Mr. Jacques Gourde: MrChair the current economic situation could lead to the disappearance of Canadas tourism industry The pain will be felt by thousands of Canadians who will have to find new jobs in order to survive Is the government going to protect the tourismbased economy by investing in tourism infrastructure and upgrades to ensure Canadas tourist regions are ready when the economy reopens ? 
Mr. Bruce Stanton: Ms Joly you have to switch to the French channel and turn on your microphone 
Hon. Mlanie Joly: Yes I look forward to working with my fellow member on this issue I know the tourism sector is important to him and especially his constituents Let us work together to find ways to get this hardhit sector moving again Many people have lost their jobs and need assistance from the government That is why we are here providing a helping hand at this difficult time so they can come out the other side","Since Quebec was Canada's biggest producer of hydroelectricity, renewable energy sharing through an energy corridor was very essential for different areas in Canada. And as a hard-hit sector, tourism needed much support from the Canadian government. The government was going to protect the tourism-based economy by investing in tourism infrastructure and upgrades to ensure Canada's tourist regions would be ready when the economy reopened. When it came to the green economy, the government now gave priority to the virus and making through this disaster. Also, they paid much attention to the small businesses and carried out measures to help them out."
"Mr. Bruce Stanton: Next we have Jacques Gourde 
Mr. Jacques Gourde (LvisLotbinire, CPC): Thank you MrChair Quebec is Canadas biggest producer of hydroelectricity a renewable energy that is the pride of the Quebec nation The only problem is that it seems to be a tough sell west of Quebec in Ontario for instance This competitively priced power could help us reduce our environmental footprint and further cut greenhouse gas emissions Will the government show leadership and allow Canadas provinces to share renewable energy through an energy corridor as we proposed ? 
Hon. Bill Morneau: MrChair we are continuing to work towards that end It is always very important to protect Canadians and we are going to stick to that approach 
Mr. Jacques Gourde: MrChair Canadas dairy processors have been hit hard by the COVID19 crisis and the new CanadaUSMexico Agreement or CUSMA Some of them have incurred losses ranging from 10 to 50 depending on the processed product Will the government commit to granting import permits under CUSMA to Canadas dairy processors not retailers directly ? 
Hon. Chrystia Freeland: MrChair I can assure you that dairy producers will receive fair compensation I should also point out that we preserved supply management when negotiating the new NAFTA That is important to Canada and Quebec and I am very pleased that we were able to do that 
Mr. Jacques Gourde: MrChair the minister seems to be missing the issue in hand Canadas dairy processors invest hundreds of millions of dollars a year to bring highquality products to consumers while contributing 19billion to GDP Now those very processors are being asked to try to export Canadian valueadded products Will the minister commit to giving Canadas dairy processors import permits instead of encouraging American multinationals ? 
Hon. Chrystia Freeland: MrChair I would like to thank the member for his question I fully understand as we all do the important role processors play in our system and our country I can assure the members of the House that we will continue to work with Canadian processors as the agreement comes into force 
Mr. Jacques Gourde: MrChair when it comes to the COVID19 crisis what Canadians will remember is that those with access to reliable highspeed Internet will have fared better feeling less financial strain than those who are cut off from the rest of the world Is the government ready to invest in making highspeed Internet available to all Canadians no matter where they live in the country ? 
Hon. Maryam Monsef: Yes we are Mr Chair 
Mr. Jacques Gourde: MrChair the current economic situation could lead to the disappearance of Canadas tourism industry The pain will be felt by thousands of Canadians who will have to find new jobs in order to survive Is the government going to protect the tourismbased economy by investing in tourism infrastructure and upgrades to ensure Canadas tourist regions are ready when the economy reopens ? 
Mr. Bruce Stanton: Ms Joly you have to switch to the French channel and turn on your microphone 
Hon. Mlanie Joly: Yes I look forward to working with my fellow member on this issue I know the tourism sector is important to him and especially his constituents Let us work together to find ways to get this hardhit sector moving again Many people have lost their jobs and need assistance from the government That is why we are here providing a helping hand at this difficult time so they can come out the other side","The current economic situation could lead to the disappearance of Canada's tourism industry. And the pain would be felt by thousands of Canadians, who would have to find new jobs in order to survive. Let's work together to find ways to get this hard-hit sector moving again. Many people had lost their jobs and needed assistance from the government. That was why they were here, providing a helping hand at this difficult time so they could come out the other side."
"The Chair: The next question will go to Mr Dalton 
Mr. Marc Dalton (Pitt MeadowsMaple Ridge, CPC): Thank you Mr Chair I am hearing from small business owners like Joel who runs a fitness club here in Pitt MeadowsMaple Ridge and is very concerned that their landlords refuse to participate in the rent assistance program These businesses have seen revenue drops between 50 and 100 and are asking for just 25 off their rent When will the government help small businesses whose landlords refuse to be team players during this pandemic ? 
Hon. Bill Morneau: Mr Chair first of all we share the members concern that small businesses be supported That is why we have moved forward with a number of measures that are designed to be of assistance With respect to rent support we are encouraging landlords to support this measure Obviously rent and landlordtenant relations are under provincial jurisdiction At every opportunity I talk to the provincial finance ministers to encourage them to get engaged there We will continue to support small businesses We believe this program has significant merit It allows for small businesses to significantly reduce their rent and for landlords to be protected with up to 75 of the rent We think it is an excellent program It will require the provinces to step forward and enforce it","They shared the member's concern that small businesses be supported. That's why they've moved forward with a number of measures that are designed to be of assistance. With respect to rent support, they were encouraging landlords to support this measure. Obviously, rent and landlord-tenant relations were under provincial jurisdiction. At every opportunity Hon. Bill Morneau talked to the provincial finance ministers to encourage them to get engaged there. They would continue to support small businesses. It allowed for small businesses to significantly reduce their rent and for landlords to be protected with up to 75% of the rent. It was a sound program and would require the provinces to step forward and enforce it."
"The Chair: We will now go on to the next question from Mr dEntremont 
Mr. Chris d'Entremont (West Nova, CPC): Thank you very much Mr Chair Ten weeks ago the Minister of Fisheries in responding to my question in question period acknowledged that the lobster fishery was being negatively affected by the COVID19 pandemic and was facing losses of up to 95 of its Asian markets Mr Chair on April 28 I asked the minister what she was doing to support harvesters who were left out of the 625 million aid package She mentioned that she was looking at sectorspecific areas to make sure that the issues were addressed Can the minister tell us what the governments plan is to directly support seafood harvesters ? 
Hon. Bernadette Jordan (Minister of Fisheries, Oceans and the Canadian Coast Guard): Thank you Mr Chair I thank my colleague for that very good question We know that the fish and seafood sector has been extremely adversely affected because of COVID19 We have started to put measures in place to address the issue with the 625 million for processors as well as to make sure that the CERB is available for seasonal workers as well as people who have run out of their fishery EI but we know that more needs to be done The fishery enterprises are uniquely structured which is why we are looking at measures to address the concerns they have I am working with my provincial colleagues as well as my caucus colleagues 
Mr. Chris d'Entremont: Mr Chair most fishermen are not eligible for the wage subsidy program due to the stipulation that it can not be used for employees who are related to their employer Most fishing enterprises like farm enterprises are family oriented Many fishermen have their wives their sons their uncles or their fathers working for them and sometimes it is the whole family on the boat Can the minister explain what the governments plan is to support fishermen who do not fit into any actual program and who desperately need direct financial help from the federal government to survive ? 
Hon. Bernadette Jordan: Mr Chair we know that because of the unique structure of fishing enterprises they are not eligible for many of the supports we have put in place We have made changes to the CERB to make sure that people who run out of the fishers EI are eligible as well as seasonable workers We know that more needs to be done for the harvesters directly We are working on direct supports We have put in place measures to address processors concerns so that harvesters continue to have a place to sell their product We know that more has to be done I am working with my cabinet colleagues to find solutions and I hope I will have more to say about that very soon 
Mr. Chris d'Entremont: In recent weeks lobster fishermen in the gulf region of the Maritimes were shocked to read an additional subsection of regulations that was added to their fishing conditions for the 2021 fishing season This addition was for a catch limitation or quota to which none of the harvesters or advisory members were privy This created quite a chill within the lobster fishery for sure Can the minister tell us how these detailed regulations managed to get added without her authorization and can licenceholders expect to see these same regulations in their conditions when their season gets going in the future ? 
Hon. Bernadette Jordan: Mr Chair I want to thank the people who brought to my attention the conditions that were put on licences in the gulf Those were not done under my authorization They were removed right away from the condition of licence and they will not happen 
Mr. Chris d'Entremont: My next question is for the Minister of Health Mr Chair on Wednesday February 26 after the death of 23yearold Chantelle Lindsay from Nova Scotia due to complications from cystic fibrosis I asked the Prime Minister whether the government was going to make Trikafta which might have saved Chantelles life available to Canadians Now that almost 12 weeks have passed we understand that Vertex Pharmaceuticals has not yet applied to Health Canada for study Many of my Conservative colleagues and I have recently sent a letter to the minister asking for an update on how we support those negotiations with Vertex Can the Minister of Health tell us when this drug will be available to CF patients in Canada ? 
The Chair: Honourable minister the floor is yours 
Hon. Patty Hajdu (Minister of Health): Thank you very much Mr Chair My heart goes out to the family of Chantelle who are obviously suffering an unbearable loss I agree with the member that we want to make sure that effective drugs are available in Canada As the member has pointed out Vertex has not applied to sell Trikafta in Canada However there is the special access program that makes drugs like Trikafta available In fact the majority of people who have applied through the special access program to get access to the drug have received access I would encourage the member to continue his correspondence with the manufacturer as will we 
The Chair: Mr dEntremont you have 36 seconds 
Mr. Chris d'Entremont: MrChair the tourism season is already deeply affected by COVID19 A number of industries businesses and festivals are having to deal with considerable losses of income In my constituency tens of thousands of tourists use the ferry between Bar Harbor Maine and Yarmouth Nova Scotia What is the government planning to do to help the ferry to survive and to resume service next season if the borders remain closed this summer ? 
Hon. Mlanie Joly (Minister of Economic Development and Official Languages): I have had the opportunity to speak to my colleague MrdEntremont about solutions to assist people in the tourism sector all over the country and particularly in the Atlantic region In light of the new funding for the Atlantic Canada Opportunities Agency ACOA I will be happy to work with him and with the leaders of the tourism sector","During the pandemic, the lobster fishery was being negatively affected and was facing losses of up to 95% of its Asian markets. Many fishermen had their wives, their sons, their uncles or their fathers working for them, and sometimes it was the whole family on the boat. Moreover, the tourism season is already deeply affected by COVID-19. A number of industries, businesses and festivals were having to deal with considerable losses of income. As for oil and gas, western Canada oil storage is under extreme pressure. If thermal projects such as SAGD are shut down, those facilities could be lost forever. The oil and gas sector was suffering through two crises --COVID and the effects of a global price war."
"The Chair: The next question goes to Mrs Kusie 
Mrs. Stephanie Kusie (Calgary Midnapore, CPC): Thank you Mr Chair It has been three months since this pandemic started and the Liberals just got around to announcing help for seniors Seniors are a priority and should be treated as such Why do the Liberals treat seniors as an afterthought ? 
Hon. Deb Schulte (Minister of Seniors): Thank you very much There is definitely an interest in and support for our seniors We have been working to support seniors since the very beginning of this pandemic I have just had the opportunity to introduce additional measures today wherein we are introducing a onetime special payment for those who receive OAS 
Mrs. Stephanie Kusie: Nearly two months into living in some form of isolation watching their retirement savings take a hit and having to take additional health precautions due to the COVID19 pandemic eligible seniors are set to receive a onetime payment of up to 500 Why does this government consistently undervalue seniors compared with everyone else ? 
Hon. Deb Schulte: I just want to make sure that my honourable colleague remembers that we have already given a GST topup of almost 375 for single seniors and over 500 for couples This is in addition to what we have just done today where as you said it is 500 
Mrs. Stephanie Kusie: According to Abacus Data 69 of Canadians feel that there will be a second wave in the pandemic and 52 of Canadians believe that there is a shortage of medical equipment including personal protective equipment Given these surprising figures what is the governments plan to bring in enough personal protective equipment should there be a second wave of the pandemic ? 
Hon. Anita Anand (Minister of Public Services and Procurement): Our government is aggressively buying lifesaving equipment and supplies that Canada needs from a diverse range of suppliers around the world and here at home We are working directly with businesses across the country to rapidly scale up domestic production capacity to meet current and future needs At this point our primary focus is on frontline health care professionals but we are also exploring federal government assistance in areas of essential services so that PPE exists where workers need it We are following public health guidance on this issue in looking to see where we can best assist 
Mrs. Stephanie Kusie: According to Public Services and Procurement Canada despite 18 billion units of PPE being procured less than 6 of N95 respirator orders have been filled less than 8 of surgical mask orders have been filled and just 14 of face shield orders have been filled We know that orders are not deliveries so what is the delay ? 
Hon. Anita Anand: Let me start by saying that we are working in an incredibly difficult and competitive global environment and are procuring millions of items : face shields gowns hand sanitizer and N95 surgical masks and ventilators every single day There is a delay in the production of these goods but we have had many deliveries coming into Canada including over two million face shields 
The Chair: We will have to go back to Mrs Kusie 
Mrs. Stephanie Kusie: A national security expert from the University of Ottawa has said that the national emergency strategic stockpile has failed in the current crisis resulting in some provinces such as Saskatchewan using expired PPE and provinces such as Alberta using faulty PPE that because rashes and headaches What is the government doing to expedite procurement and to counter the risk of faulty PPE given that 34 of the suppliers are from China which has already supplied significant faulty PPE ? 
Hon. Anita Anand: I will start by saying that we have multiple supply chains operating at the same time from China and domestically and from the United States and other countries around the world Our first priority is to make sure that we get safe effective equipment and supplies into the hands of our frontline health care workers Given the global supply chains and their competitive nature this is an ongoing project and we are having success for our frontline health care workers 
The Chair: We will now go on to the next question from Mr dEntremont 
Mr. Chris d'Entremont (West Nova, CPC): Thank you very much Mr Chair Ten weeks ago the Minister of Fisheries in responding to my question in question period acknowledged that the lobster fishery was being negatively affected by the COVID19 pandemic and was facing losses of up to 95 of its Asian markets Mr Chair on April 28 I asked the minister what she was doing to support harvesters who were left out of the 625 million aid package She mentioned that she was looking at sectorspecific areas to make sure that the issues were addressed Can the minister tell us what the governments plan is to directly support seafood harvesters ? 
Hon. Bernadette Jordan (Minister of Fisheries, Oceans and the Canadian Coast Guard): Thank you Mr Chair I thank my colleague for that very good question We know that the fish and seafood sector has been extremely adversely affected because of COVID19 We have started to put measures in place to address the issue with the 625 million for processors as well as to make sure that the CERB is available for seasonal workers as well as people who have run out of their fishery EI but we know that more needs to be done The fishery enterprises are uniquely structured which is why we are looking at measures to address the concerns they have I am working with my provincial colleagues as well as my caucus colleagues 
Mr. Chris d'Entremont: Mr Chair most fishermen are not eligible for the wage subsidy program due to the stipulation that it can not be used for employees who are related to their employer Most fishing enterprises like farm enterprises are family oriented Many fishermen have their wives their sons their uncles or their fathers working for them and sometimes it is the whole family on the boat Can the minister explain what the governments plan is to support fishermen who do not fit into any actual program and who desperately need direct financial help from the federal government to survive ? 
Hon. Bernadette Jordan: Mr Chair we know that because of the unique structure of fishing enterprises they are not eligible for many of the supports we have put in place We have made changes to the CERB to make sure that people who run out of the fishers EI are eligible as well as seasonable workers We know that more needs to be done for the harvesters directly We are working on direct supports We have put in place measures to address processors concerns so that harvesters continue to have a place to sell their product We know that more has to be done I am working with my cabinet colleagues to find solutions and I hope I will have more to say about that very soon 
Mr. Chris d'Entremont: In recent weeks lobster fishermen in the gulf region of the Maritimes were shocked to read an additional subsection of regulations that was added to their fishing conditions for the 2021 fishing season This addition was for a catch limitation or quota to which none of the harvesters or advisory members were privy This created quite a chill within the lobster fishery for sure Can the minister tell us how these detailed regulations managed to get added without her authorization and can licenceholders expect to see these same regulations in their conditions when their season gets going in the future ? 
Hon. Bernadette Jordan: Mr Chair I want to thank the people who brought to my attention the conditions that were put on licences in the gulf Those were not done under my authorization They were removed right away from the condition of licence and they will not happen 
Mr. Chris d'Entremont: My next question is for the Minister of Health Mr Chair on Wednesday February 26 after the death of 23yearold Chantelle Lindsay from Nova Scotia due to complications from cystic fibrosis I asked the Prime Minister whether the government was going to make Trikafta which might have saved Chantelles life available to Canadians Now that almost 12 weeks have passed we understand that Vertex Pharmaceuticals has not yet applied to Health Canada for study Many of my Conservative colleagues and I have recently sent a letter to the minister asking for an update on how we support those negotiations with Vertex Can the Minister of Health tell us when this drug will be available to CF patients in Canada ? 
The Chair: Honourable minister the floor is yours 
Hon. Patty Hajdu (Minister of Health): Thank you very much Mr Chair My heart goes out to the family of Chantelle who are obviously suffering an unbearable loss I agree with the member that we want to make sure that effective drugs are available in Canada As the member has pointed out Vertex has not applied to sell Trikafta in Canada However there is the special access program that makes drugs like Trikafta available In fact the majority of people who have applied through the special access program to get access to the drug have received access I would encourage the member to continue his correspondence with the manufacturer as will we 
The Chair: Mr dEntremont you have 36 seconds 
Mr. Chris d'Entremont: MrChair the tourism season is already deeply affected by COVID19 A number of industries businesses and festivals are having to deal with considerable losses of income In my constituency tens of thousands of tourists use the ferry between Bar Harbor Maine and Yarmouth Nova Scotia What is the government planning to do to help the ferry to survive and to resume service next season if the borders remain closed this summer ? 
Hon. Mlanie Joly (Minister of Economic Development and Official Languages): I have had the opportunity to speak to my colleague MrdEntremont about solutions to assist people in the tourism sector all over the country and particularly in the Atlantic region In light of the new funding for the Atlantic Canada Opportunities Agency ACOA I will be happy to work with him and with the leaders of the tourism sector","The fish and seafood sector had been extremely adversely affected because of COVID-19. They've started to put measures in place to address the issue with the $62.5 million for processors, as well as to make sure that the CERB is available for seasonal workers as well as people who had run out of their fishery EI, but they knew that more needs to be done. The fishery enterprises were uniquely structured, which was why they were looking at measures to address the concerns they had. Because of the unique structure of fishing enterprises, they were not eligible for many of the supports they had put in place. They had made changes to the CERB to make sure that people who ran out of the fishers EI were eligible as well as seasonal workers."
"The Acting Chair (Mr. Bruce Stanton): We will continue The next question will go to Mr Yurdiga 
Mr. David Yurdiga (Fort McMurrayCold Lake, CPC): Thank you Mr Chair Before I start my questions I would like to thank the various ministers parliamentary secretaries and the Speaker of the House for reaching out to me during the severe flooding in Fort McMurray Your support during these trying times is much appreciated The oil and gas industry is under severe strain Over the past number of years we have seen tremendous pressure on the federal government from antioil and gas lobby groups demanding that the oil sands be shut down The federal Liberal governments response to the antioil lobby was the introduction of the no more pipelines bill Bill C69 which will prevent any major oil and gas projects from being developed in Canada and the oil shipping ban Bill C48 for the northern coast of British Columbia which also had a negative effect on the oil industry These two bills alone pushed over 200 billion of investment out of Canada causing the Alberta economy to retract to recession levels To compound Albertas economic problems we have an international oil price war and the COVID19 pandemic which caused a huge drop in demand for oil Mr Chair 48 days after the finance minister promised liquidity loans to oil producers and service companies there are still no applications open for these loans Can the honourable Minister of Natural Resources tell us when the Liberals will act on their promise ?","The oil and gas industry was under severe strain. Over the past number of years, they had seen tremendous pressure on the federal government from anti-oil and gas lobby groups demanding that the oil sands be shut down. The federal Liberal government's response to the anti-oil lobby was the introduction of the Bill C-69, which would prevent any major oil and gas projects from being developed in Canada; and the oil shipping ban, Bill C-48, for the northern coast of British Columbia, which also had a negative effect on the oil industry. These two bills alone pushed over $200 billion of investment out of Canada, causing the Alberta economy to retract to recession levels. To compound Alberta's economic problems, we have an international oil price war and the COVID-19 pandemic, which caused a huge drop in demand for oil."
"User Interface: Yep So this is our product or prototype This is made by clay the basic colour is yellow and red Yellow is our company colour red it is is more attractive So we used two basic colour yellow and red And the shape there is two basic shape The first is a circle and the second is a triangle s piece It is we call it a mushroom design It is looks like some mushroom so we call it mushroom design So this is a introduction of our product 
Project Manager: Genetically modified mushroom I will say but 
User Interface: so next slide So there are several key features of our pr prototype The first is that it is fuzzy I am sure this would be the unique design the market so it is a fuzzy design and a unique design and the second key feature is that s circle channel selection In the traditional key traditional controller use button to to select the channel but now we have a s circle so we can turn this ball to t to select channel So it is quite convenient for user to use it 
Project Manager: but do not touch do not destroy your prototype 
User Interface: the third feature is a stable triangle base this sta this triangle base is very stable so so it is it is it is unlikely you can not found it So it is v you can put it in the table so you can turn the the ball to cha to select the channel and there is some cute button You c can can you can see the the shape of the buttons n is a mushroom so 
Project Manager: Everythings mushroom So we can call our remote control the mushroom 
User Interface: everythings mushroom Mush Mushroom design 
Industrial Designer: but it is not like really mushroom because you have you know like lemon shape you know centre is yellow and t d 
User Interface: th that is why if you put it in the table be careful somebody will eat it 
Industrial Designer: I do not think I hope nobody will eat it You know to integrate the fruit aspect you know the the in 
Marketing: because mushroom was not in the trends I mean there was fruits 
Industrial Designer: Really ? But Fruit and vegetable 
Project Manager: Vegetables Mushroom is a vegetable 
Industrial Designer: so mushroom was a kind of you know 
Marketing: I do not think it is 
Industrial Designer: Oh I am not sure 
Project Manager: So th it is something eatable 
Industrial Designer: We can it is a veg a kind of vegetable but you know we we integrated them with different colour 
Marketing: But anyway this is not a mushroom anyway so it is fine 
Industrial Designer: I think we take into account what you said about fruit and vegetable you know This you know very enlighted colours you know 
Marketing: No I mean Inspira inspiration is 
Industrial Designer: and and very sophisticated material so 
User Interface: no this our only two slides","The user interface designer put forward that the basic colour would be red and yellow and there would be two basic shapes - circle and triangle, which was called a mushroom design. Specifically, the prototype had 3 key features - a fuzzy look, a spherical channel selection and a stable triangle base. However, the marketing thought mushroom was not in the trends so the group decided to change it into a pineapple."
"User Interface: Yep So this is our product or prototype This is made by clay the basic colour is yellow and red Yellow is our company colour red it is is more attractive So we used two basic colour yellow and red And the shape there is two basic shape The first is a circle and the second is a triangle s piece It is we call it a mushroom design It is looks like some mushroom so we call it mushroom design So this is a introduction of our product 
Project Manager: Genetically modified mushroom I will say but","Because yellow was their company colour and red was more attractive, which met the product requirement that the remote control should have a fancy look to attract the customers."
"User Interface: It is we call it a mushroom design It is looks like some mushroom so we call it mushroom design So this is a introduction of our product 
Project Manager: Genetically modified mushroom I will say but 
User Interface: so next slide So there are several key features of our pr prototype The first is that it is fuzzy I am sure this would be the unique design the market so it is a fuzzy design and a unique design and the second key feature is that s circle channel selection In the traditional key traditional controller use button to to select the channel but now we have a s circle so we can turn this ball to t to select channel So it is quite convenient for user to use it 
Project Manager: but do not touch do not destroy your prototype 
User Interface: the third feature is a stable triangle base this sta this triangle base is very stable so so it is it is it is unlikely you can not found it So it is v you can put it in the table so you can turn the the ball to cha to select the channel and there is some cute button You c can can you can see the the shape of the buttons n is a mushroom so 
Project Manager: Everythings mushroom So we can call our remote control the mushroom 
User Interface: everythings mushroom Mush Mushroom design 
Industrial Designer: but it is not like really mushroom because you have you know like lemon shape you know centre is yellow and t d 
User Interface: th that is why if you put it in the table be careful somebody will eat it 
Industrial Designer: I do not think I hope nobody will eat it You know to integrate the fruit aspect you know the the in 
Marketing: because mushroom was not in the trends I mean there was fruits 
Industrial Designer: Really ? But Fruit and vegetable 
Project Manager: Vegetables Mushroom is a vegetable 
Industrial Designer: so mushroom was a kind of you know 
Marketing: I do not think it is 
Industrial Designer: Oh I am not sure 
Project Manager: So th it is something eatable 
Industrial Designer: We can it is a veg a kind of vegetable but you know we we integrated them with different colour 
Marketing: But anyway this is not a mushroom anyway so it is fine 
Industrial Designer: I think we take into account what you said about fruit and vegetable you know This you know very enlighted colours you know","In the user interface designer's design, the shape of the product and the buttons were all mushrooms, but the marketing thought mushroom was not in the trends because mushroom was neither a vegetable nor a fruit."
"Project Manager: so mister money what is your opinion according to this remote control ? 
Marketing: I mean we going to try to measure how good it is instead of just talking about we had three keys key points to for this remote control design So w we will try to judge this feature with a one to seven scale one being no I think 
Industrial Designer: So four point three point five it means it is acceptable 
Marketing: One one being true and seven being false Do we have a fancy look and feel according to you ? 
Industrial Designer: I think you have nice colours I do not The sha the bowl shape people like 
User Interface: the shape is unique and the colour 
Marketing: I will agree it is unique but is it really 
Industrial Designer: Is it really fancy ? 
User Interface: So it depend on how d do you define fancy 
Marketing: I mean fancy was was defined by s fruit and vegetable look 
Industrial Designer: But it is you have the lemon aspect of this th this this thing 
Project Manager: Maybe if you change if you take the buttons out and maybe do things like that 
Industrial Designer: Do Do not do that please 
Marketing: I do not know where the lemon is but 
Industrial Designer: I it is it is i this shape is a lemon like so 
Marketing: I mean it is not obvious 
Project Manager: It would be bet more like a lemon ? 
Marketing: I do not know maybe improving the texture of like having it less smooth or 
Project Manager: Looks like more fruit Maybe a pineapple ? 
Industrial Designer: but you do not have any button now 
Project Manager: And you know you have the finger here with the buttons ? 
Industrial Designer: that is a good idea 
Project Manager: It looks more like a pineapple What is the use for that ? 
Industrial Designer: I have no idea so 
User Interface: for turn turn the ball If you want to turn the ball it is very it is very convenient for you to to to turn the ball to change the channel 
Industrial Designer: I have no idea what 
Project Manager: And where is the voice recognition ? 
User Interface: Ah it is embedded your microphone Th this th th there is two two functions 
Marketing: that is Wait th that is the second point First one is we have to judge the fancy look and feel 
Industrial Designer: If it is fancy or not 
Project Manager: Is it better like that ? 
Industrial Designer: So we can we can say t 
Project Manager: let us say it is a pineapple now 
Industrial Designer: The colour is the colour acceptable ? 
Marketing: No the colour is that is fine but I would say there is more too much red 
Industrial Designer: It is too much red ? 
Project Manager: It looks like a pineapple with cherry on top 
Marketing: Right So from one to seven ? 
Industrial Designer: I will give I will 
Project Manager: Mm Seven is the ma the maximum ? 
Marketing: No seven is false and one is true 
Industrial Designer: I will give two or three 
Project Manager: Three I will say three 
Industrial Designer: Three it is Three three Three is fine for me 
Project Manager: Is not it bitter like that ? 
Marketing: The other criterion is is it technologically technologically in innovative 
Industrial Designer: Is it easy to use ? 
Project Manager: Feasible ? You said previously that you there is microphone inside an 
User Interface: this is microphone array in fact 
Industrial Designer: It is a micro array 
User Interface: So they they they they there is a microphone array 
Project Manager: and you have the there is the technology inside that recognise simple vocal comments ? And you can turn it so maybe it is techno technologically innov innovative ? 
User Interface: So you can capture voice you c so you can capture s voice from different directions 
Industrial Designer: And I think you you have never seen a rou a round remote control so it is I 
Marketing: bu but when you say technologically it is more I do not know in the core or single 
Industrial Designer: I see you have microphone array embedded You have 
Marketing: th that is another really good point Maybe 
Industrial Designer: I think technically it is acceptable so 
Marketing: So using the same scale two ? 
Project Manager: Two ? I would say two 
Industrial Designer: Two two It is it is fine so 
Project Manager: It is better like that is not it ? 
Marketing: Now maybe the most critical one L last one w I would like to judge is is it easy to use ? 
Industrial Designer: Eh for th the vocal command yes it is might be easy But it is just speaking You just need the command 
User Interface: You can use this in this way 
Marketing: but this this turning can you can you just re explain me the 
User Interface: Th this is the base So you can turn to change the channel 
Marketing: but how how intuitive is it to turn things to change channels ? 
User Interface: You just tu turn d d 
Industrial Designer: I think maybe if you he 
Marketing: Like if you want to go from 
Project Manager: You take take the remote so 
Industrial Designer: If you hear some click 
Project Manager: and you can turn like that to change the channel ? I think it is quite easy to so s zapping but maybe it will be too fast 
Marketing: I am I am no I am not definitely convinced it is it is the best way to if you want to jump from I do not know one to twenty ? 
Industrial Designer: Oh that is difficult That is dif that is difficult 
Marketing: How can you go directly to twenty for example ? 
User Interface: No no no I if y if it depend on the the angle you turn the 
Industrial Designer: but y how you need to know I 
Marketing: But I mean if you are fro from two ? 
User Interface: I if if this is a channel one So it c it could be channel two channel three channel four channel five 
Project Manager: you have a like that and so on 
Marketing: ju just imagine you have fifty fifty channels 
User Interface: Y fifth channel divided by the num by the by three hundred thirteen degree So you got how many degree you you it 
Project Manager: but y but you have to go through all the channels if you want to go 
Industrial Designer: I think you can if you have a scale so 
User Interface: No no you do not have to y no it is when you when you stop t when you stop the the turn then the angle you stop is the angle you is the channel you 
Marketing: How d how do you know this angle is th is the correct one ? 
User Interface: It is it is very easy because you kn you know how many channel are there in the 
Marketing: So you you count one degree two degrees no I do not think so 
Industrial Designer: it is a bit difficult 
User Interface: I think so I think so you can do it I think so you can just change 
Industrial Designer: I think b but the the vocal command is easy too You can say fifty and fifty it is so 
Marketing: voc vocal command is But w we have said previously that maybe it is not going to be th l the main 
User Interface: There is also a number you know 
Project Manager: but when you are zapping you are changing from one channel to the other so you are passing through all the channels So when you say I want to go to the channel number twenty that is you have decided to go to channel twenty so you can say channel twenty or channel four because you really want to go on this channel But if you really want to to do zapping you you do not really know what you want to do you can turn it 
Marketing: And this would be more for browsing ah 
Project Manager: Just go through all the channels and maybe stop if there is something interesting ? Good choice mister David Jordan 
Marketing: I mean you are famous You 
User Interface: And also you can if you i 
Project Manager: what is what is this cherry ? 
User Interface: You ca you can turn this Or you ca you can you can also turn this 
Industrial Designer: It is a turn off t turn off button maybe 
User Interface: For this you can tune it is for tune You you if you want to skip from channel one to channel two you you skip this If you want to from skip from channel one to channel ten you tune this It is like fine from coarse to fine This is coarse this is fine So it is coarse to fine design 
Industrial Designer: that is very technologic so 
Marketing: the th this looks better 
User Interface: is is this is from one channel to maybe to ten channel 
Industrial Designer: S But I di I did not see where the t f the turn off t turn on turn off button so much activates 
User Interface: This is from one channel to 
Project Manager: th you have the vocal commands 
Marketing: but it has to be on to recognise fas 
Project Manager: Most of the time you have the it is a sleeping remote control 
Marketing: Ah that is not the ecological part 
Project Manager: That is true W that why we have the solar ti 
Industrial Designer: Easy to use it is very relative but three it is fine I think it is reasonable three 
Marketing: So reasonably is four is one ? 
Industrial Designer: Three f three for me it is o it is Four or three Maybe you can vote to see how many everybody gives and no and just take the mean 
Project Manager: And what is your opinion ? 
Industrial Designer: Will you give four ? 
Marketing: we would not say I mean those are sort of agreed but this one would be more five to me 
Industrial Designer: Five ? so maybe if 
User Interface: w w what do y what you compare with traditional tr traditional controller ? I think it is easier than traditional controller If you use traditional controller you have to put a button but now you do not have to put button you have you just turn the turn the ball There is two kind of balls the smaller the the the so you can c you can c you can control the scale But in the traditional controller how do how can you control the scale ? 
Marketing: by pushing zero after after the first one 
Industrial Designer: You just push two button zero and and one 
User Interface: y you you can do it but you can also do it in the b if you you do not wa if you do not want to browsing all the channel you can just p there is also a button here 
Industrial Designer: Are there some buttons ? 
User Interface: this function is just for your browsing from one channel to th the next one the next s sn s the th the third one 
Project Manager: It is not what you said previously Previously you said that turning this was the fine 
Marketing: if you are changing your mind 
Project Manager: And from ten to ten channels here 
User Interface: Y one to ten ten to twelve ten to t twenty Ten to twenty and this one t one two three four five six like this there is different scale so you can you can choose how much do you want to sc 
Marketing: But this this has to stay on the table right ? This has to stay on the table 
Industrial Designer: In fact on a flat place 
User Interface: I i this is just a base You can just 
Marketing: but then when you turn turn it 
Project Manager: no no no You can not put it out 
Industrial Designer: Oh ye yes that is right 
Project Manager: It is just your turning from the base You need to have everything in hand If you want to turn you can not use it and turn You need to put it on and turn 
Marketing: You know tha that is the weak point because with a traditional one you just have one hand 
Project Manager: but nobody would be able to take it in the pocket and bring it in the kitchen and say I have lost the remote control 
User Interface: So th this is a d next generation controller 
Marketing: Sure you would never you would never lose this one 
Project Manager: So nobody w will lost lose it 
Industrial Designer: it is the next prototype maybe we cou 
Project Manager: S maybe we can change from th 
Industrial Designer: Four Maybe four it is 
Project Manager: Four ? Easy to use four 
Industrial Designer: four it is more reasonable 
Marketing: it is even easier to maybe 
Industrial Designer: You can you can erase with this er four it is more reasonable so So it is nine It need maybe some wo further work but it is 
Marketing: especially on the easy to use 
Industrial Designer: Might it might be fine 
Project Manager: So th the project is accepted ? But I d m I think that it will be good to do some more work to transform this into a pineapple If you re we really want to have a fruitful remote control","The marketing suggested measuring how good the design was instead of just talking about it so the group started to judge the design in three aspects on a scale of one to seven, one being true and seven being false. The criterion was how fancy, technologically innovative, and easy-to-use the remote control was and it got three, two, and four in separate aspects, which meant it was acceptable."
"Marketing: The other criterion is is it technologically technologically in innovative 
Industrial Designer: Is it easy to use ? 
Project Manager: Feasible ? You said previously that you there is microphone inside an 
User Interface: this is microphone array in fact 
Industrial Designer: It is a micro array 
User Interface: So they they they they there is a microphone array 
Project Manager: and you have the there is the technology inside that recognise simple vocal comments ? And you can turn it so maybe it is techno technologically innov innovative ? 
User Interface: So you can capture voice you c so you can capture s voice from different directions 
Industrial Designer: And I think you you have never seen a rou a round remote control so it is I 
Marketing: bu but when you say technologically it is more I do not know in the core or single 
Industrial Designer: I see you have microphone array embedded You have 
Marketing: th that is another really good point Maybe 
Industrial Designer: I think technically it is acceptable so 
Marketing: So using the same scale two ? 
Project Manager: Two ? I would say two 
Industrial Designer: Two two It is it is fine so 
Project Manager: It is better like that is not it ? 
Marketing: Now maybe the most critical one","The controller had an embedded microphone array which could recognise simple vocal commands and the four microphones could capture voice from different directions. It also had tactile buttons, which was a really good point."
"Marketing: L last one w I would like to judge is is it easy to use ? 
Industrial Designer: Eh for th the vocal command yes it is might be easy But it is just speaking You just need the command 
User Interface: You can use this in this way 
Marketing: but this this turning can you can you just re explain me the 
User Interface: Th this is the base So you can turn to change the channel 
Marketing: but how how intuitive is it to turn things to change channels ? 
User Interface: You just tu turn d d 
Industrial Designer: I think maybe if you he 
Marketing: Like if you want to go from 
Project Manager: You take take the remote so 
Industrial Designer: If you hear some click 
Project Manager: and you can turn like that to change the channel ? I think it is quite easy to so s zapping but maybe it will be too fast 
Marketing: I am I am no I am not definitely convinced it is it is the best way to if you want to jump from I do not know one to twenty ? 
Industrial Designer: Oh that is difficult That is dif that is difficult 
Marketing: How can you go directly to twenty for example ? 
User Interface: No no no I if y if it depend on the the angle you turn the 
Industrial Designer: but y how you need to know I 
Marketing: But I mean if you are fro from two ? 
User Interface: I if if this is a channel one So it c it could be channel two channel three channel four channel five 
Project Manager: you have a like that and so on 
Marketing: ju just imagine you have fifty fifty channels 
User Interface: Y fifth channel divided by the num by the by three hundred thirteen degree So you got how many degree you you it 
Project Manager: but y but you have to go through all the channels if you want to go 
Industrial Designer: I think you can if you have a scale so 
User Interface: No no you do not have to y no it is when you when you stop t when you stop the the turn then the angle you stop is the angle you is the channel you 
Marketing: How d how do you know this angle is th is the correct one ? 
User Interface: It is it is very easy because you kn you know how many channel are there in the 
Marketing: So you you count one degree two degrees no I do not think so 
Industrial Designer: it is a bit difficult 
User Interface: I think so I think so you can do it I think so you can just change 
Industrial Designer: I think b but the the vocal command is easy too You can say fifty and fifty it is so 
Marketing: voc vocal command is But w we have said previously that maybe it is not going to be th l the main 
User Interface: There is also a number you know 
Project Manager: but when you are zapping you are changing from one channel to the other so you are passing through all the channels So when you say I want to go to the channel number twenty that is you have decided to go to channel twenty so you can say channel twenty or channel four because you really want to go on this channel But if you really want to to do zapping you you do not really know what you want to do you can turn it 
Marketing: And this would be more for browsing ah 
Project Manager: Just go through all the channels and maybe stop if there is something interesting ? Good choice mister David Jordan 
Marketing: I mean you are famous You 
User Interface: And also you can if you i 
Project Manager: what is what is this cherry ? 
User Interface: You ca you can turn this Or you ca you can you can also turn this 
Industrial Designer: It is a turn off t turn off button maybe 
User Interface: For this you can tune it is for tune You you if you want to skip from channel one to channel two you you skip this If you want to from skip from channel one to channel ten you tune this It is like fine from coarse to fine This is coarse this is fine So it is coarse to fine design 
Industrial Designer: that is very technologic so 
Marketing: the th this looks better 
User Interface: is is this is from one channel to maybe to ten channel 
Industrial Designer: S But I di I did not see where the t f the turn off t turn on turn off button so much activates 
User Interface: This is from one channel to 
Project Manager: th you have the vocal commands 
Marketing: but it has to be on to recognise fas 
Project Manager: Most of the time you have the it is a sleeping remote control 
Marketing: Ah that is not the ecological part 
Project Manager: That is true W that why we have the solar ti 
Industrial Designer: Easy to use it is very relative but three it is fine I think it is reasonable three 
Marketing: So reasonably is four is one ? 
Industrial Designer: Three f three for me it is o it is Four or three Maybe you can vote to see how many everybody gives and no and just take the mean 
Project Manager: And what is your opinion ? 
Industrial Designer: Will you give four ? 
Marketing: we would not say I mean those are sort of agreed but this one would be more five to me 
Industrial Designer: Five ? so maybe if 
User Interface: w w what do y what you compare with traditional tr traditional controller ? I think it is easier than traditional controller If you use traditional controller you have to put a button but now you do not have to put button you have you just turn the turn the ball There is two kind of balls the smaller the the the so you can c you can c you can control the scale But in the traditional controller how do how can you control the scale ? 
Marketing: by pushing zero after after the first one 
Industrial Designer: You just push two button zero and and one 
User Interface: y you you can do it but you can also do it in the b if you you do not wa if you do not want to browsing all the channel you can just p there is also a button here 
Industrial Designer: Are there some buttons ? 
User Interface: this function is just for your browsing from one channel to th the next one the next s sn s the th the third one 
Project Manager: It is not what you said previously Previously you said that turning this was the fine 
Marketing: if you are changing your mind 
Project Manager: And from ten to ten channels here 
User Interface: Y one to ten ten to twelve ten to t twenty Ten to twenty and this one t one two three four five six like this there is different scale so you can you can choose how much do you want to sc 
Marketing: But this this has to stay on the table right ? This has to stay on the table 
Industrial Designer: In fact on a flat place 
User Interface: I i this is just a base You can just 
Marketing: but then when you turn turn it 
Project Manager: no no no You can not put it out 
Industrial Designer: Oh ye yes that is right 
Project Manager: It is just your turning from the base You need to have everything in hand If you want to turn you can not use it and turn You need to put it on and turn 
Marketing: You know tha that is the weak point because with a traditional one you just have one hand 
Project Manager: but nobody would be able to take it in the pocket and bring it in the kitchen and say I have lost the remote control 
User Interface: So th this is a d next generation controller 
Marketing: Sure you would never you would never lose this one 
Project Manager: So nobody w will lost lose it 
Industrial Designer: it is the next prototype maybe we cou 
Project Manager: S maybe we can change from th 
Industrial Designer: Four Maybe four it is 
Project Manager: Four ? Easy to use four 
Industrial Designer: four it is more reasonable 
Marketing: it is even easier to maybe 
Industrial Designer: You can you can erase with this er four it is more reasonable so So it is nine It need maybe some wo further work but it is 
Marketing: especially on the easy to use","The user interface designer thought it was easier than a traditional controller because you didn't have to press a button, just turn the ball to a certain angle to select channels. However, the marketing and the industrial designer thought it was quite difficult because users didn't know the angle was the correct one and they had to go through all the channels if they wanted to jump from channel one to twenty."
"Industrial Designer: So what we w what I can add is that you know he talk about what is outside so what is inside is what we dis what we talked before about you know the chip it is a low level chip and 
User Interface: So we cut it to see 
Industrial Designer: You know we do not need to k You know wi the low level chips inside and you know the LCD button and the i 
User Interface: So where is the battery battery ? 
Industrial Designer: The battery it is under It is in th in in the base 
Project Manager: In the basement In the basement And where is the solar solar cell ? 
Marketing: But we say we sa we said solar 
Project Manager: Where is the solar cell ? 
Industrial Designer: In fact this this this this is a kind of you know revolutionary solar receptor that we can put outside and 
Project Manager: Oh Do you think it will not be It will not cris increase the price ? 
Industrial Designer: I do not think so but it it is might be so 
Project Manager: We will have first to 
Industrial Designer: I it might be So","The group decided that the product would have a low level chip, one button with LCD, a scroll wheel with a push button on it, a battery in the base, a single curve, and solar cells and it would be plastic instead of wooden so that the costs were 12.5 Euros which was within the budget. Furthermore, they came up with some new ideas about future products, such as a fruit collection of electronic devices or a customizable TV that followed the trend and people's moods."
"User Interface: Which part is the most expensive part ? 
Industrial Designer: The solar cells r is i is it ? 
User Interface: I think it is not t t 
Project Manager: I think But it would i be interesting for our marketing team to make a lot of advertisement concerning these solar cells to be 
Industrial Designer: to be able to si to sell it 
Marketing: but if it is it is still four our of twelve 
Industrial Designer: It is it is really really really very very expensive though 
Project Manager: but it will be technologically innova innovative so 
Marketing: but we just have one button 
Project Manager: So it is easy to use and powerful as the remote control a has only one button 
Marketing: Easy I do not know about powerful 
Industrial Designer: It is easy to use It is very easy to use 
Project Manager: So I do not think we need to redesign the p the product 
Marketing: that is what we have just done 
Industrial Designer: We have done it with it is under the if it was low high or so So So what are we going to do with this project evaluation ? 
Marketing: Well I think we have just have to discuss if","Although solar cell was the most expensive part of the whole product, it still played a crucial role in making the controller technologically innovative. Plus, it would be interesting for their marketing team to make a lot of advertisements to sell it."
"User Interface: Because the TV you also 
Project Manager: Oh that is interesting You could f we could do a kind of fruit collection of electronics things Electronic device 
Marketing: but just do not trust too much the trends Because fruit and vegetables it will not last for ten years 
Project Manager: maybe la next year it will be insects 
Marketing: Maybe two years it is dead 
Industrial Designer: But I think it is good to follow the f flow and you know make it now and after you know if the people change their mind you change also the product 
Marketing: but this is good because it is not a long long life product TV is more like fifteen years maybe so If you have a lemon lemon TV for 
Industrial Designer: We can think about TV with you know where you can change you know the aspects o like for the cell phones you know you customise it every ti so every ti if people change you just change the appearance and y y you can keep 
Project Manager: Ah such You have already said mobile phones 
Marketing: Tha that would that would make it 
Industrial Designer: you can keep the global appearan The mood of persons the fashions 
Project Manager: It is interesting maybe we can create a a line of TV with a a tr 
Industrial Designer: We int TV A TV for autumn and a TV for winter you know so it is So what i and do w is it","The marketing thought they should not trust too much the trend because it wouldn't last long - fruits and vegetables were in fashion this year but maybe next year it would be insects. However, the industrial designer believed it was good to follow the flow now and then since electronic devices were not long life products: if people changed, the product appearance should change as well."
"Marketing: You have got market range international and you did say earlier it is got to be a accessible and usable by sort of all age groups just t we are not focusing on business market any particular thing it is everyone 
Project Manager: yes yes I do not think we have to I do not think it is a case of worrying about different languages and things like that making that a key point just that it is going to be in the international market like Australia America things like that What are your experiences with remote controls ? I mean I have got we got we had three videos a TV and a sort of amp thing all set up so we got one of the universal remote controls that you programme each of your things into but that kept losing the signals so we would have to reprogramme it every now and again I think it was quite a cheapie as well so that might have had something to do with it but that was quite good the fact that you could You did not have six remote controls sitting in front of you 
Industrial Designer: Use all the ones at the same time 
User Interface: you want to integrate everything into one like 
Marketing: My experience has only been being given the remote control with the object I buy not doing any tampering with it and programming using it to programme TV and videos and things But basically on off volume up and down channel one two th that basic functions I do not think I could go any further with it than that so I suppose it is got to be something usable by someone like me as well 
Project Manager: the main that is the main stuff anyway I mean and you do not want to I hate I hate looking at a control and seeing a million tiny little buttons with tiny little words saying what they all do and just sitting there searching for the teletext button or something like that 
Marketing: Mm And symbols that you do not necessarily understand symbols you are meant to understand that you do not 
User Interface: So simplification of symbols you could think of 
Project Manager: When they are when you have got the main things on the front of it and a section opens up or something to the other functions where you can do sound or options kind of recording things like that inside it Because it does not make when you pick it up it does not make it really complicated to look at it is obvious what you are doing 
Marketing: Actually that just raises a point I wonder what our design people think but you know on a mobile phone you can press a key and it gives you a menu it is got a menu display I wonder if incorporating that into the design of a remote control might be useful so you have got a little LCD display 
User Interface: Right I was thinking on the same lines you instead of having too many b buttons and make it complicated for the user may h maybe have an LCD di display or something like that like a mobile and with menus And if it is s somewhat similar to what you have on mobile phone people might find it easier to browse and navigate also maybe 
Project Manager: What about the older generation ? What about granny and grandads ? 
User Interface: You mean to save it lesser number 
Project Manager: my grandad can answer his mobile phone but he could not even dream of texting or something like that 
Marketing: Mmhmm Mmhmm Can he programme his remote control or is it basic with that too ? 
Project Manager: I do not think they tape things 
Industrial Designer: my grandads actually better than me at using teletext so 
Project Manager: I do not think they use 
Marketing: Right Right So that is a problem regardless of of any design modifications you you come up with that is going to be a problem anyway with the older generation perhaps 
Industrial Designer: what it just needs to be as long as it is sort of selfintuitive and you can can work out what everythings doing because I mean menus on sort of new phones now they have sort of got all these pictures and stuff which makes it fairly obvious what you are trying to do 
Project Manager: I do not know I d 
Industrial Designer: But I do not know how 
Project Manager: I do not like the you know the new phones that have kind of got a Windowsbased running system I find it really confusing I kept getting lost in the phone I di I have not got a new one but my friend got a new one and I was trying to do things with it and I just kept getting lost but that is just me 
Industrial Designer: I do not I do not know how for twenty fi or twelve Euros fifty how much of a excellent screen you could get you would you would have to sort of keep it down to a black and white LCD thing anyway I would assume 
Marketing: Mmhmm Is it possible that that for the older generation you could have like an extra button that you press for large print like you do in large print books ? 
Project Manager: Teletext has got that option as well 
Marketing: Obviously it displays less on the screen it displays less on the screen but as long as they can read it that is the main thing 
Project Manager: Or what about kind of a dual function ? In that you have got the basic buttons just for your play volume programme things and also and then a menu to go into with obvious pictures obvious symbols and that is where you control recording and things like that 
Marketing: Mmhmm Mm The other thing is just ch chucking into mobile phone f design features again it could have a flip top remote control so that when you flip over the top your screen is you can have a bigger screen in the the flip over 
Project Manager: I think that is a cost thing I do not I do not know how much we are going to know about 
User Interface: it might save a b bit of space it is i instead of looking bulky it might look small 
Project Manager: Yes no that is important 
User Interface: But it might have its cost implications 
Marketing: And there is no reason we need to make it look as fashionable and stylish as a mobile phone it can still be lightweight plastic you know ? Something that is easily moulded and produced Sorry I am treading on your territory guys 
Project Manager: we have got half an hour before the next meeting so we are all going to go off and do our individual things I think that is probably about it and then we will come back and liaise again and I get to do another fantastic PowerPoint presentation 
Industrial Designer: Just just a quick thing about the about what you are saying about the does does it need to be fashionable ? The sort of I I had a quick look at the company website and it is like the the we put the fashion into electronics so I think think the whole design thing might be qui I mean you do not you you can still have plastic and it would look quite good but 
Marketing: But I mean it does not have to be that you know th that was my main point we do not have to use metal I do not know if using plastic does make it cheaper 
Project Manager: it would probably I mean there is Sky remote controls and everything They are kind of moulded and look a bit different and the Telewest remote controls are silver plastic which looks a bit smarter so I guess that is stuff we can think about","Industrial Designer desired to integrate remote controls for different appliances into one. Marketing pointed out that such integration would lead to too many buttons, which was not user-friendly enough. Instead, Marketing suggested that a menu display should be incorporated. Project Manager and User Interface agreed and added that basic buttons could remain. User Interface and Industrial Designer refused the flip top, however, for it costs a lot. The team temporarily chose lightweight plastic to be the material."
"Marketing: My experience has only been being given the remote control with the object I buy not doing any tampering with it and programming using it to programme TV and videos and things But basically on off volume up and down channel one two th that basic functions I do not think I could go any further with it than that so I suppose it is got to be something usable by someone like me as well 
Project Manager: the main that is the main stuff anyway I mean and you do not want to I hate I hate looking at a control and seeing a million tiny little buttons with tiny little words saying what they all do and just sitting there searching for the teletext button or something like that 
Marketing: Mm And symbols that you do not necessarily understand symbols you are meant to understand that you do not 
User Interface: So simplification of symbols you could think of 
Project Manager: When they are when you have got the main things on the front of it and a section opens up or something to the other functions where you can do sound or options kind of recording things like that inside it Because it does not make when you pick it up it does not make it really complicated to look at it is obvious what you are doing 
Marketing: Actually that just raises a point I wonder what our design people think but you know on a mobile phone you can press a key and it gives you a menu it is got a menu display I wonder if incorporating that into the design of a remote control might be useful so you have got a little LCD display 
User Interface: Right I was thinking on the same lines you instead of having too many b buttons and make it complicated for the user may h maybe have an LCD di display or something like that like a mobile and with menus And if it is s somewhat similar to what you have on mobile phone people might find it easier to browse and navigate also maybe",Marketing believed that most of the market would want convenient channel browsing and volume adjustment features instead of any tampering or programming with too many buttons. User Interface agreed with the simplification of symbols. The team came up with a menu display to make the remote more user-friendly.
"Project Manager: What about the older generation ? What about granny and grandads ? 
User Interface: You mean to save it lesser number 
Project Manager: my grandad can answer his mobile phone but he could not even dream of texting or something like that 
Marketing: Mmhmm Mmhmm Can he programme his remote control or is it basic with that too ? 
Project Manager: I do not think they tape things 
Industrial Designer: my grandads actually better than me at using teletext so 
Project Manager: I do not think they use 
Marketing: Right Right So that is a problem regardless of of any design modifications you you come up with that is going to be a problem anyway with the older generation perhaps 
Industrial Designer: what it just needs to be as long as it is sort of selfintuitive and you can can work out what everythings doing because I mean menus on sort of new phones now they have sort of got all these pictures and stuff which makes it fairly obvious what you are trying to do","Industrial Designer initially worried about the replacement of buttons. Industrial Designer was soon convinced by Marketing that the age gap was a problem regardless of any design modifications and insisted on the incorporation of a menu display, however."
"Marketing: And there is no reason we need to make it look as fashionable and stylish as a mobile phone it can still be lightweight plastic you know ? Something that is easily moulded and produced Sorry I am treading on your territory guys 
Project Manager: we have got half an hour before the next meeting so we are all going to go off and do our individual things I think that is probably about it and then we will come back and liaise again and I get to do another fantastic PowerPoint presentation 
Industrial Designer: Just just a quick thing about the about what you are saying about the does does it need to be fashionable ? The sort of I I had a quick look at the company website and it is like the the we put the fashion into electronics so I think think the whole design thing might be qui I mean you do not you you can still have plastic and it would look quite good but 
Marketing: But I mean it does not have to be that you know th that was my main point we do not have to use metal I do not know if using plastic does make it cheaper 
Project Manager: it would probably I mean there is Sky remote controls and everything They are kind of moulded and look a bit different and the Telewest remote controls are silver plastic which looks a bit smarter so I guess that is stuff we can think about so let us break it up there ?",Industrial Designer was uncertain about whether the remote could look fashionable with plastic at first. Marketing and Project Manager exemplified other remote controls to make Industrial Designer believe that silver plastic could look smart.
"Project Manager: That was fun right financewise we have got a selling price at twenty five Euros which I do not actually know what that is in Pounds at all Any ideas ? 
User Interface: One point four or something like that One point four Euro would make a Pound or something like that 
Industrial Designer: about seventeen seventeen Pounds something like that 
Marketing: Should we be making notes of this ? We can just refer to this later can not we ? 
Project Manager: I think so I think so I will be able to pull it up or I could put it in the shared folder or something 
Industrial Designer: Havi having said that though if you want to get one of those the the ones on the market at the moment they are s they are about twenty pounds anyway So it would still be we had to buy one 
Marketing: so I suppose later it depends if we want to undercut the price we d or or is it going to make our product look a cheapiecheapie option ? 
Project Manager: production costs at twelve fifty so half of the selling price is taken up by building it and profit aim is fifty million Euros 
Marketing: In our first year ? 
Project Manager: Yi yes I presume so","Project Manager proposed to price each remote control at 25 Euros, considering the 12.5-Euro production cost. The profit aim for the team would be 50 million Euros in the first year. The market range would be international and over all age groups."
"Marketing: You have got market range international and you did say earlier it is got to be a accessible and usable by sort of all age groups just t we are not focusing on business market any particular thing it is everyone 
Project Manager: yes yes I do not think we have to I do not think it is a case of worrying about different languages and things like that making that a key point just that it is going to be in the international market like Australia America things like that","Project Manager hoped to make the market range international, covering all age groups, instead of focusing solely on the business market. Project Manager highlighted that the team should not worry about the language differences and the big target group would be achievable."
"Industrial Designer: I will go first Can I grab the Thanks What do I have to press ? Oh F eight ? Yep there we go this is the working design presented by me the Industrial Designer extraordinaire Kay this is where I went a bit mad with PowerPoint so What the first thing question I asked was what are we trying to design ? Well a device which basically just sends the signal to the TV to change its state whether that be the power or the channel or the volume everything is just some sort of signal to change the state of the TV or other appliance that it is sending the signal to so I decided I would have a look at what th other people have designed and try and take some inspiration from that But although we will want to be taking ideas from other people we want to make sure that our design stands out and I thought that was something that well it was not really my area because I am dealing with the inside really So I ran out of time so I could not do this one as fun as the last one and I found out that most controls use some form of infrared to send signals to the TV presumably because of the cost issue of something like the same thing that computers use wireless and you do not need to send very much information most of them are powered by some form of battery Now our one I am I am not sure whether we want to look at the size issue because most of them are powered by triple A batteries but those can be quite bulky so I d I did not know if you wanted to look at something else so we could shrink down the size of the control 
Marketing: Mmhmm Could I can I interject to ask a question there is that appropriate ? You are saying the triple A batteries are small or the surrounding it ? 
Industrial Designer: no no if you if you look at if you look at most remote controls they are quite they are quite chunky and that is because of the size of the batteries they have to be obviously this certain size to fit those batteries in 
Marketing: Right the triple As are the smallest you can get are they not right ? 
Industrial Designer: well you can you can get the sort of circular round ones but I am just wondering about power consumption and how much you need to send the data across and d which leads sort of onto the next point about them being small and easy to carry round now the ones at the moment are small but I was just wondering if we could look at something a bit smaller Now the main components I came up with were obviously the power source for the batteries because otherwise it is not going to work as I said about the w which batteries we were going to choose we can discuss that later and then you obviously need something to decode the information that you are putting in from from the controller Now these have a wireless range of up to about five metres which is sort of suitable for anyone who is watching the TV unless they are in a cinema which not most people do so as we are applying to the most audience that should be fine And then I was just had a quick look at the external design but I d I left that mostly to the interface designer And so this is what I had as the basic idea of what we want to do It is not a proper circuit I am not sure if it would work or not I am not even confident that those are the real the real way you would wire it up but anyway we have just got the the power going to the infrared bulb with the chip and the UI interface which would basically when you when you pressed anything it would the chip would convert it into some form of IR data which could be decoded by the TV receiver which obviously means that we are going to have to conform to whatever whatever form of communication that the TVs are already using and since that that is another use and reason to use that infrared because that is what all TVs use at the moment And then finally we want the it to be available to a wide audience at a low cost so all the components that I have put forward are low in cost so that that should be good it should should be different enough from the alternative products to get a good consumer base we were talking about it before and also just something that I was thinking about because they are small they are also easy to lose so if we could look into some way of d do not know some antigoing down the side of the sofa thing that you could have I th that was just sort of a general point there 
Marketing: That is a very important part it came up in our market research findings too so I can refer to that whenever you like me to present 
Industrial Designer: Alright and that is that is what I came up with there so if you want to 
Project Manager: would you like to continue on from that ? Or maybe move the laptop over 
User Interface: that is with me further Oops Why is it not working ? F eight right ? Mm why is it in the right ? 
Marketing: No The plug has not come out at the bottom has it ? No 
Industrial Designer: No no it is just 
User Interface: Actually mm some of my points might overlap with what Williams just mention but basically my method was like whatever brainstorming we did in the last meeting just a couple of valuable points and started developing on that and there might be some missing loops in this thing which I think we will take a feedback from the marketing because I have not had some marketing data and basically every product is marketable So purpose as William already said I would put it to simplify the interaction with TV to make make it as simple as possible And to summarise I I would say it is it should be userfriendly by being easy to use rather than having a lot of complex button because you can have an engineering maybe having hundred buttons and maybe having a remote control which has the main features like volume control or channel ch changing the channel or whatever But we are to to make it unique so that people want to buy it will this two features together So what the concept is to have a fliptop model The main functions such as which are like often used will be on the top and the complex functions which say you you can say like the y young generation or trendy generation want to pr say programme their favourite channels or whatever can be put in the middle part of the f fliptop So it is like it could be accessed by a wide ra range of audience and we can punch in new f features such as added features such as shock proof body and maybe a design to appeal to a lot of people Findings most people prefer us userfriendly rather than complex remote controls because there are times like people have used a remote control for say a year or something and they they are not used maybe thirty to forty percent of the buttons so it is not of no use of punching in the trying to put in those things in on the top of the remote control and try to confuse the user As we saw we we have to make a profit also so we we can maybe go for an economies of a higher production mm by fifty million we said ? with that I think we will be able to achieve economies of scale also so we can give in add in more features and make it less costly that is so this is if you ask me personally I would make fliptop with a trendy design and s maybe we we should look at also like the buttons whe whether they are like soft or little hard because they are times when the buttons tend to be a bit hard after continuous use usage and all that So in overall a simple and userfriendly design any comments like if you want ? 
Project Manager: Kay I think we will chat about it at the end","On battery issue, Industrial Designer expressed a desire to minimize the size of the battery. Meanwhile, cost, power consumption, wireless range and data transmission were supposed to be considered. User Interface's presentation followed. The remote control design would be simplified and user-friendly. To make the style more trendy, User Interface decided on a flip-top model."
"Industrial Designer: and I found out that most controls use some form of infrared to send signals to the TV presumably because of the cost issue of something like the same thing that computers use wireless and you do not need to send very much information most of them are powered by some form of battery Now our one I am I am not sure whether we want to look at the size issue because most of them are powered by triple A batteries but those can be quite bulky so I d I did not know if you wanted to look at something else so we could shrink down the size of the control 
Marketing: Mmhmm Could I can I interject to ask a question there is that appropriate ? You are saying the triple A batteries are small or the surrounding it ? 
Industrial Designer: no no if you if you look at if you look at most remote controls they are quite they are quite chunky and that is because of the size of the batteries they have to be obviously this certain size to fit those batteries in 
Marketing: Right the triple As are the smallest you can get are they not right ? 
Industrial Designer: well you can you can get the sort of circular round ones but I am just wondering about power consumption and how much you need to send the data across and d which leads sort of onto the next point about them being small and easy to carry round now the ones at the moment are small but I was just wondering if we could look at something a bit smaller Now the main components I came up with were obviously the power source for the batteries because otherwise it is not going to work as I said about the w which batteries we were going to choose we can discuss that later and then you obviously need something to decode the information that you are putting in from from the controller Now these have a wireless range of up to about five metres which is sort of suitable for anyone who is watching the TV unless they are in a cinema which not most people do so as we are applying to the most audience that should be fine And then I was just had a quick look at the external design but I d I left that mostly to the interface designer And so this is what I had as the basic idea of what we want to do","Industrial Designer admitted that current remote controls were mostly powered by triple A batteries. However, Industrial Designer also pointed out that they were bulky, although they had been the smallest fit-in batteries at present. Industrial Designer expressed a desire to find a smaller alternative for triple A batteries."
"Marketing: I am going to look at the functional requirements from the marketing point of view and obviously our starting point with marketing is always market research so that is where we started we used our our usability lab the companys usability lab we did our usual selection methods to get a crosssection of the general public male and female all age groups from fifteen upwards and we observed them in the lab just their general use of the remote control you can see we had a hundred subjects there Our findings lots of findings I have just summarised some of them here The overall thing which I have I have got at the top there in italics is that users dislike the look and feel of current remote controls so it has obvious design implications there we found that seventy five percent of users find most remote controls ugly Eighty percent would spend more money when a remote control would look fancy we were quite surprised by that finding but that is quite a high proportion of our our you know international target group are prepared to spend more money for something that is a bit nicer looking current remote controls do not match well with the operating behaviour of the user overall For example you can see below there seventy five percent of users zap a lot so you have got your person sunk back in the sofa channelhopping So again there is power implications there fifty percent of users only use ten percent of the buttons so again a big design issue there and possibly we can also cut back on cost if we do not have so many functions actually on the remote control the biggest frustrations that people found with regard to personal preferences were something that you you mentioned earlier remote controls are often lost in the room it is a slipping down the back of the sofa type of thing fifty percent were were particularly frustrated by that thirty four percent of people take said they take too much time to learn to use and I think that ties in with the the previous finding of people only using ten percent of the buttons they just can not be bothered to learn about the other functions slightly more than a quarter of people said it was bad for repetitive strain injury You know those small movements of the remote control can lead to kind of shoulder and elbow problems the vast majority of the thirty five and under age group would like a liquid crystal display and speech recognition again that was to aid I think in when they have lost the actual remote control some kind of speech recognition Something we did not put to them but which I am thinking of now is even if perhaps the lost control can give off a bleep every now and again til you find it or a flashing light possibly that trend reverses in the older age groups So thirty fives and unders who would like those two features that kind of evens out thirty five to forty five and in the older age group it kind of reverses they are not so bothered with this I had marvellous tables and things that I could show you but I think I will just keep it simple if there is any more information I can email you extra details 
Project Manager: we have new project requirements we are not going to be using teletext apparently the consumers consider it outdated with the internet now our control is only going to be for TV it is not going to be a combined control which limits you know all of the different things that it limits the cost for us but it also makes it easier to understand for the consumer 
Marketing: Mmhmm so can we not programme a video with this remote control ? 
Project Manager: It says for TV only so looks like it is just I think maybe Sky things like that might be incorporated into it but I do not know what do you think ? It just said for TV only But I mean general TV controls do do video as well 
Marketing: Would that imply video use ? 
Industrial Designer: T I d well I do not know because the w if you have g 
Project Manager: I mean you bu well som you get com you get combined TV and videos do not you ? 
Industrial Designer: and if you got if you got a Sky box they have one of those plus boxes you can record straight off the TV anyway so on to on to like the TV hard drive or so 
Project Manager: Mm I think we assume that it is still got play and stop functions and programming 
User Interface: Anything about that on the market research or something like regarding whether people want a combined something like that ? 
Marketing: we did not really look into that but remember we found that finding that most people only use about ten percent of the buttons I think th th those do tend to be the basic channelhopping things and on and off for the video fastforwarding so on and I think it is sort of general knowledge that people do find programming their videos a nightmare 
Industrial Designer: Ju just as an idea on the speech recognition thing that pr it would probably be quite expensive to incorporate an entire speech recognition thing and they are not that great anyway 
Marketing: In fact I have just called up that table there we asked those two questions the table relates to both questions so we did not differentiate Would you prefer an LCD screen that is multifunction remote and would you pay more for speech recognition in a remote control ? So you can see how the the yes no sort of varies across the age group there and a substantial number of do not knows in the older age group I think that is just general fear of new technology 
Industrial Designer: but on on that again I just thought because you can get those key chains now and you whistle and then it will let off a loud noise to let you know where it is so I thought that could be quite a 
Project Manager: We do have a budget limitation that we can not control ourselves so I think when we can take a cheaper option which still does the same kind of thing because it is something I it needs to be the thing that you use to find it needs to be something that you do not lose you were saying whistling maybe on the TV you could put like a pack on the TV or something so you can not see the remote you go and press the button on top of the TV and it beeps and you are like oh it is over there something like that 
Marketing: Yes That is a super idea 
Project Manager: but that is that sounds a lot cheaper to me the third thing was that we have to make sure the corporate image is very much incorporated into the handset so we want logo we want fashionable trendy I mean what you were talking about with the marketing people paying more for it to look good we need to focus on that as well 
Marketing: Yes further market research will be needed to kind of focus on what that is it is going to be different for a fifteen year old th for somebody who is sixty and also across the world if we are aiming at the international market What is attractive to a trendy New Yorker and what is attractive to a retired South African I do not know you get the idea It is it is going to vary around the world At the end of the day th the engineering design is one thing it is the user interface design that may and th the sort of you know fashionable aspect of it we might have to change for different markets round the world 
User Interface: So are we talking of a single model or maybe five six designs ? 
Industrial Designer: Well y you could you could have a number of different designs I mean inside they would be essentially exactly the same 
User Interface: The features could be same and the body could look slightly different 
Project Manager: What about you were talking about the buttons the controls that are coming out now have kind of big rubber buttons not tiny little one big rubber buttons but what about I mean because we got to make it original what about you know with the touch screen computers 
Industrial Designer: Kay that is what I was just 
Project Manager: ? so you it is like a little panel that you touch rather than a button which should not wear out as much either not sure about the 
Industrial Designer: No well no because you would not have to you do not actually have to press them you just 
Project Manager: You do not have to press it you just have to put your thumb onto it think that might appeal I am thinking kind of Japan I am thinking young office people trendy kind of a thing 
Marketing: Yes it will appeal to sections of the market def 
Project Manager: but quite easily labelled so that anyone can oh that is obvious what that is for and it is not daunting to maybe the older generations 
Industrial Designer: Mm But also er ergonomics as we are saying with the different designs ergonomics there is sort of physically different things because if you have ever seen the X Box they had to make two different sized controllers because people in Japan would not buy it because the controller was physically to big because they are c just generally Japanese people have smaller hands so they could not get round the controller which is so if you I do not know what because you obviously you can have bigger buttons for some countries or something and smaller ones for others 
User Interface: maybe to as it it was indicated that risk of repeated use the injuries maybe a touch screen could be a better option for that So a bigger b so y you are dividing designs based on not only segment age groups you are desi dividing it according to the countries also the market Maybe for US and all you can have a slightly bigger remote control and maybe in Japan and all you need to have a small 
Project Manager: I think we have to design one product and then the company can take it wherever they want to in the sense that they can make it smaller or they can make it bigger or they can change the features slightly 
Marketing: Th the internal d engineering design has got to remain the same yes absolutely 
Project Manager: It is going to be the same so we need to focus on just one thing not get bogged down in lots of different possibilities 
Marketing: Mmhmm Mmhmm I am concerned when you read the the RSI issue again repetitive strain injury I do not think just moving your finger around on a small screen is going to deal with that enough I think that is still a kind of a question mark issue how we deal with that RSI tends to be caused by repetitive small movements I am j I really can not get my head round this one this may have to be postponed to a future meeting but it is something we should think about 
Industrial Designer: I I was just thinking about how you could combat that because without without doing something where you have to move your arm around to change the channel 
Marketing: Mm I know and it becomes ridiculous yes I know 
Project Manager: I think that is the only way that you kind of avoid that kind of issue 
Marketing: Yes Mmhmm Do we have to initially you know looking at the findings here focus on a younger age group initially and then broaden out the market later Do we really have to go for everyone right away ? 
User Interface: We could focus on the biggest market If say people between age group of twenty to thirty five are the biggest market ? 
Marketing: And when we have been throwing up our ideas we are automatically talking about business people young people trendy people 
Project Manager: We are we are talking about the type of company that we are working for as well That they want it to be fashionable they want it to be trendy and you would not automatically assume associate that with the older generations Now with the baby boomers the older generations are actually larger they have a greater population than us young people but I do not think we are focusing on that I think we are focusing on a sort of midrange business kind of class type people 
Marketing: Mm Mm I am just thinking of budgetary issues too for when it does get to the sort of broad scale marketing stage we want to you know not waste money not be profligate and you know focus on where the idea will be taken up first it is most likely to be taken up first of all where the main purchasing power is coming from for a product like this 
Project Manager: so the remote control functions we have got the TV we have got the video now there is I can not remember what it is called the little code at the end of programme details yes We could use that as an alternative to programming in times things like that is that I always found that really easy when I discovered it because you have got your general record anyway so if you there is a programme on you want to put record on that is fine but if you do want to tape something in two days time and you are not sure if you are going to you put the number in 
Industrial Designer: Just whack in the number 
Project Manager: and it is just a number it is not a date it is not a time it is not a channel it is not when it finishes it is not anything like that it is just a number 
Industrial Designer: And you would not you would not need a whole host of extra buttons for that you just need one because you have already got all the numbers there anyway 
Project Manager: You have already got the numbers for typing in anyway 
Marketing: Right I have not come across that function but it sounds wonderful 
Project Manager: after if you look in the newspaper TV guide or any TV guide there is a five six digit number afterwards and that is the number you put in and it is recorded that it is going to be on on Tuesdays at ten of the clock on the seventeenth so you do not have to worry about dates and you do not have to worry about times and it has been around for quite a long time 
Industrial Designer: It is been been around for a long time it is just it is not very well advertised as to how to use it and things 
Project Manager: No it is not but I think if awareness was kind of brought to the forefront about that 
Industrial Designer: Though if y if you have got something like Sky anyway you can just click on it you can just press the button on the programme once and it will record that programme when it is on and you press it on it twice and it will record the whole series But just to have that function would be would be really good 
Marketing: Can I just run this past you while it occurs to me I do not mean to quickly jump from one subject to another but just discussing the different age groups and targeting the different age groups it occurs to me to produce our own mobile phones that that is kind of what led us on to comparing TV remote controls with with their design features chain companies like Carphone Warehouse you can pop in anytime with a phone that you bought for them w if you have got any problems with it and they will fix it they will phone the company you can use their telephones Is it worthwhile with with our retail outlets having a a similar kind of service so that if older users were deterred from buying this if they know they can just pop into one of our high street outlets th you know which button is it I press for this ? Th as free as a free aspect of our service would that not make it more attractive to them ? 
Industrial Designer: But the only problem is that with a mobile phone you signed for a contract so they the companies who who you deal with have actually they have they have got an obligation to to help you out and also I mean it is it is fair enough to have some sort of help service but I I am not sure how much the cost would be of having 
Project Manager: The functionality of it in the sense that you are sitting there you are pressing this button and your TVs not doing it Taking your TV and your control and saying look this is what I am doing it is not working what should I do ? 
Marketing: If it was something as simple as you could not change the channel but I mean for if there were any more or are we absolutely definite it is only going to be for TV and video we are not going to put any just a thought 
Industrial Designer: I mean instru instruction books I feel c I reckon can cover that 
Project Manager: Instruction manuals But I mean they are there is customer service there will be a customer service number thing that you can phone up and speak to and that way there is no call out charge there is no extra t the person has to walk to a shop on the high street 
User Interface: I think it will be too much of an effort for a person to for a phone maybe he might walk down the street but for a remote he will just refer to the manual and all that 
Marketing: Not for such simple functions because we are focusing on that 
Project Manager: Mm But we should focus on making the manual as userfriendly as possible because a lot of them are just tiny little writing and lots and lots of pages 
Marketing: Puts people off reading them so they just do the obvious yes 
Project Manager: you just put it in the drawer until something goes wrong and then you try and search through it so that should be something we think about what other functions ? We need I am not sure if we need a design decision now but we should think about c because you have got the dilemma between oh batteries that is what I was thinking about Mobile phone batteries what kind of battery is that ? 
Industrial Designer: they are they are specially made for the for the mobile phones but they come with a charger I mean you could you could bundle a charger in with it but 
Project Manager: Well they la they they last quite a long time and if you had when you th the thing that you get with mobile house phones you sit it in its charger when you are not using it or t at night or something but it does not really matter because it never really runs out because it lasts a long time once it is charged something like that should reduce the size of it 
Industrial Designer: and if if you if you had if you had one of those just coming back to your other point about pressing the button and setting off the bleeper in the room that could 
Project Manager: it could be on that 
Industrial Designer: on that as well so 
User Interface: So are we talking of a concept of a rechargeable something on the remote ? 
Industrial Designer: some sort of docking station or 
Project Manager: Rechargeable with a docking station So the rechargeable which would be your field 
Industrial Designer: th that that would be fine and also that would mean they would not have to go out buying batteries all the time 
Project Manager: which it is cheaper in the long run as well th the shape you got trendy I do not want to big box with lots of things you do not want a tiny sort of little thing either because then you have got the repetitive strain injury no matter how many how much you try and make it simple 
Marketing: And we do not w I mean so many remote controls look absolutely identical these long brown things with the same coloured buttons all crammed in on the s the surface We definitely an ob an obvious thing a very simple thing is to get away from these brown rectangles we do not want that 
Project Manager: so we have got a flipscreen 
User Interface: What I was thinking of a design which Nokia h came up with almost six or seven years back Basically we have a flat one it it looks like a box like a chocolate That is very strenuous because your thumb is slightly up so they came up with something like this curled up so here and you do not have to you do not bend your thumb too much so it is like you can say a banana shape kind of thing curled up like a boat G so what happens is you do not have to press your thumb too down like So it is already curled up so your thumb does not 
Project Manager: Because it is kind of moulded to your hand anyway 
User Interface: y so we can have a s like you know moulded according to your the way you h hold of it is kind of semicircular in the bottom something like that I would not say exactly semicircular but smooth 
Project Manager: Can you look into the company logo ? things that are associated with the company in view to trying to incorporate that into the design of the product I mean for example if it was a C or something like that you could have it in a vague C shape that opens up kind of like a she will or something something along those lines to be able to incorporate it quite obviously into the design while also making it quite different from anything else that is there 
User Interface: We could look in at that but Mm What we were talking is to make it more rather than like seashells 
Marketing: I mean look at the mobile 
User Interface: logo could become as you could put a logo in the corner of the model rather than you know trying to make it like a sea she will or whatever you were ta telling like 
Project Manager: Well we need to think about how it is going to look different 
Marketing: I think that is that sounds a really attractive idea 
User Interface: A sea she will ? 
Marketing: I have not come across anything like that before if it kind of and that opens out into your fliptop Then it is nice t to h you can make it lightweight plastic nice to hold in the palm of the hand and just because you are having to actually insert in between the two covers that is going to take care of some of the repetitive strain injury trying p prevent a lot of that I would think I think it is a really nice idea 
User Interface: we could look in at that 
Marketing: and plus you can get you know even though we are using plastic you can still I mean think of the designs you can get in plastic we can do a nice conch she will or scallop she will exterior 
Project Manager: Or you could do different like you get with mobile phones different fascias You could have different kind of casings So you could have like psychedelic ones for younger people and sleek ones and 
Marketing: Mmhmm Less chance of it being lost too it is not like a chocolate brown lozenge that is going to go down the sofa and people might want to put it on their mantelpiece or whatever as a ki if it looks attractive enough as a kind of ornament they do not not going to lose it so much either It is easier to bit nice to handle 
User Interface: maybe we could come at some say five six des designs and then choose which are whichever appeals the most like that could be the most common design But we can like think of five six designs 
Project Manager: Right I think we have to round it up","The market research presented by Marketing implicated that the remote control design was expected to be more stylish and less complicated. Project Manager added that an ideal model would be for TV only and have a corporate logo incorporated. To meet the requirements above, Industrial Designer recommended a touch screen panel. Marketing suggested that the remote control size could be adjusted due to physical differences among international users. The team gave up speech recognition, for it would cost a lot. An alarm would be incorporated for detection in case the remote control was lost in the house."
Marketing: so you have got your person sunk back in the sofa channelhopping So again there is power implications there fifty percent of users only use ten percent of the buttons so again a big design issue there and possibly we can also cut back on cost if we do not have so many functions actually on the remote control the biggest frustrations that people found with regard to personal preferences were something that you you mentioned earlier remote controls are often lost in the room it is a slipping down the back of the sofa type of thing fifty percent were were particularly frustrated by that thirty four percent of people take said they take too much time to learn to use and I think that ties in with the the previous finding of people only using ten percent of the buttons they just can not be bothered to learn about the other functions slightly more than a quarter of people said it was bad for repetitive strain injury You know those small movements of the remote control can lead to kind of shoulder and elbow problems the vast majority of the thirty five and under age group would like a liquid crystal display and speech recognition again that was to aid I think in when they have lost the actual remote control some kind of speech recognition Something we did not put to them but which I am thinking of now is even if perhaps the lost control can give off a bleep every now and again til you find it or a flashing light possibly that trend reverses in the older age groups So thirty fives and unders who would like those two features that kind of evens out thirty five to forty five and in the older age group it kind of reverses they are not so bothered with this I had marvellous tables and things that I could show you,"The market research implicated that users' biggest frustration was their failure in finding the remote control once it was lost in the house. To solve the problem, Industrial Designer suggested that a button could be added on the TV; when the user pressed the button, the remote control would beep to let the user know its location. Meanwhile, such a solution would be within budget."
"Industrial Designer: Mm But also er ergonomics as we are saying with the different designs ergonomics there is sort of physically different things because if you have ever seen the X Box they had to make two different sized controllers because people in Japan would not buy it because the controller was physically to big because they are c just generally Japanese people have smaller hands so they could not get round the controller which is so if you I do not know what because you obviously you can have bigger buttons for some countries or something and smaller ones for others 
User Interface: maybe to as it it was indicated that risk of repeated use the injuries maybe a touch screen could be a better option for that So a bigger b so y you are dividing designs based on not only segment age groups you are desi dividing it according to the countries also the market Maybe for US and all you can have a slightly bigger remote control and maybe in Japan and all you need to have a small 
Project Manager: I think we have to design one product and then the company can take it wherever they want to in the sense that they can make it smaller or they can make it bigger or they can change the features slightly","Industrial Designer was inspired by the design of Xbox and gave an example of Japanese people's small hands compared to the big controller. Out of ergonomic considerations, Industrial Designer encouraged the team to notice the physical differences among users all over the world when deciding the remote control size."
"Project Manager: th the shape you got trendy I do not want to big box with lots of things you do not want a tiny sort of little thing either because then you have got the repetitive strain injury no matter how many how much you try and make it simple 
Marketing: And we do not w I mean so many remote controls look absolutely identical these long brown things with the same coloured buttons all crammed in on the s the surface We definitely an ob an obvious thing a very simple thing is to get away from these brown rectangles we do not want that 
Project Manager: so we have got a flipscreen 
User Interface: What I was thinking of a design which Nokia h came up with almost six or seven years back Basically we have a flat one it it looks like a box like a chocolate That is very strenuous because your thumb is slightly up so they came up with something like this curled up so here and you do not have to you do not bend your thumb too much so it is like you can say a banana shape kind of thing curled up like a boat G so what happens is you do not have to press your thumb too down like So it is already curled up so your thumb does not 
Project Manager: Because it is kind of moulded to your hand anyway 
User Interface: y so we can have a s like you know moulded according to your the way you h hold of it is kind of semicircular in the bottom something like that I would not say exactly semicircular but smooth 
Project Manager: Can you look into the company logo ? things that are associated with the company in view to trying to incorporate that into the design of the product I mean for example if it was a C or something like that you could have it in a vague C shape that opens up kind of like a she will or something something along those lines to be able to incorporate it quite obviously into the design while also making it quite different from anything else that is there 
User Interface: We could look in at that but Mm What we were talking is to make it more rather than like seashells 
Marketing: I mean look at the mobile 
User Interface: logo could become as you could put a logo in the corner of the model rather than you know trying to make it like a sea she will or whatever you were ta telling like 
Project Manager: Well we need to think about how it is going to look different 
Marketing: I think that is that sounds a really attractive idea 
User Interface: A sea she will ? 
Marketing: I have not come across anything like that before if it kind of and that opens out into your fliptop Then it is nice t to h you can make it lightweight plastic nice to hold in the palm of the hand and just because you are having to actually insert in between the two covers that is going to take care of some of the repetitive strain injury trying p prevent a lot of that I would think I think it is a really nice idea 
User Interface: we could look in at that 
Marketing: and plus you can get you know even though we are using plastic you can still I mean think of the designs you can get in plastic we can do a nice conch she will or scallop she will exterior 
Project Manager: Or you could do different like you get with mobile phones different fascias You could have different kind of casings So you could have like psychedelic ones for younger people and sleek ones and 
Marketing: Mmhmm Less chance of it being lost too it is not like a chocolate brown lozenge that is going to go down the sofa and people might want to put it on their mantelpiece or whatever as a ki if it looks attractive enough as a kind of ornament they do not not going to lose it so much either It is easier to bit nice to handle 
User Interface: maybe we could come at some say five six des designs and then choose which are whichever appeals the most like that could be the most common design But we can like think of five six designs 
Project Manager: Right I think we have to round it up","Overall, the model style was expected to be trendy and appealing. Marketing and Project Manager agreed on User Interface's design of a flip-screen. Marketing also hoped that the remote control would be slightly curved. User Interface added that the remote control would curl up to users' hands so that their thumbs did not have to press. The corporate logo would be put in the corner. The model would be made of lightweight plastic with a smooth bottom and a nice scallop shell exterior."
"PhD D: She will probably come up 
PhD G: Since we are starting late I figured we would better just start 
Professor F: Great idea I was going to ask Adam to say if he thought anymore about the demo stuff because it occurred to me that this is late May and the DARPA meeting is in pause mid July but I do not remember w what we I know that we were going to do something with the transcriber interface is one thing but I thought there was a second thing Anybody remember ?","A pressing concern for the group is the DARPA meeting in July, which is only a short time away, and for which they would like to have some progress. "
"PhD D: She will probably come up 
PhD G: Since we are starting late I figured we would better just start 
Professor F: Great idea I was going to ask Adam to say if he thought anymore about the demo stuff because it occurred to me that this is late May and the DARPA meeting is in pause mid July but I do not remember w what we I know that we were going to do something with the transcriber interface is one thing but I thought there was a second thing Anybody remember ? 
PhD G: Well we were going to do a mock up like question answering or something I thought that was totally separate from the interface Do you remember ? Remember like asking questions and retrieving but in a pre stored fashion That was the thing we talked about I think before the transcriber 
Professor F: Alright So anyway you have to sort out that out and get somebody going on it cuz we are got a got a month left basically So 
PhD G: You like these Right ? OK good 
Professor F: OK OK So what are we g else we got ? You got you just wrote a bunch of stuff 
PhD G: No That was all previously here I was writing pause the digits and then I realized I could xerox them","For the DARPA meeting in July, the group proposed that they should have the question answering mock-up and transcriber interface ready for then, and also have data available."
"Professor F: An and the other thing is I mean in the unlikely event and since we are so far from this it s a little hard to plan this way in the unlikely event that we actually find that we have transcribers on staff who are twiddling their thumbs because you know there s you know all the stuff that that was sitting there has been transcribed and they are and they are faster the the pipeline is faster than than the generation eh i in in the day e event that that day actually dawns I I bet we could find some other stuff for them to do So I I think that eh eh a as we were talking if we if we hire twelve then we could you know run into a problem later I mean we also just could not sustain that forever But but for all sorts of reasons but if we hire f you know f we have five on staff five or six on staff at any given time then it s a small enough number so we can be flexible either way 
PhD G: It would be great too if we can we might need some help again getting the tighter boundaries or some hand to experiment with you know to have a ground truth for this segmentation work which I guess you have some already that was really helpful and we could probably use more 
PhD E: Mmm That was a thing I I planned working on is to use the the transcriptions which are done by now and to to use them as 
PhD G: Oh Oh the new ones 
PhD E: And to use them for for training a or for fo whatever To to create some speech nonspeech labels out of them and but that that s a thing w was w what I m just looking into 
Postdoc A: The the the pre segmentations are so much are s so extremely helpful Now there was I g guess So a couple weeks ago I needed some new ones and it happened to be during the time that he was on vacation f for just very few days you were away But it happened to be during that time I needed one so I so I started them on the non pre segmented and then switched them over to yours and they you know they always appreciate that when they have that available And he s usually eh So they really appreciate it But I was going to say that they do adjust it once in a while You know once in a while there s something like and e Actually you talked to them Did not you ? Did you ? Have you ? And and and she was And so I asked her I mean They are very perceptive I really want to have this meeting of the transcribers I have not done it yet but I want to do that and she s out of town for a couple of weeks but I want to do that when she returns cuz she was saying you know in a in a span of very short period we asked It seems like the ones that need to be adjusted are these these these things and she was saying the short utterances the you know I mean you are You are aware of this But but actually i it s so correct for so much of the time that it s an enormous time saver and it just gets tweaked a little around the boundaries So I think it would be interesting to combine these 
PhD G: Is there actually a record of where they change ? I mean you can compare do a different on the just so that we knew 
Postdoc A: You could do it It s it s complicated in that hhh i hhh i 
PhD E: Actually when when they create new new segments or something it will be not that easy but I think pause one could do that 
PhD G: I mean if we keep a old copy of the old time marks just so that if we run it we know whether we are which ones were cheating 
PhD E: That would be great to know that 
Postdoc A: There is a there is one problem with that and that is when they start part way through then what I do is I merge what they ve done with the pre segmented version 
PhD G: which one would be good 
Postdoc A: So it s not a pure it s not a pure condition Wha what you would really like is that they started with pre segmented and were pre segmented all the way through And comment I the it was not possible for about four of the recent ones But it will be possible in the future 
PhD G: As long as we have a record I guess of the original pause automatic one we can always find out how well pause we would do fr from the recognition side by using those boundaries You know a completely non cheating version Also if you need someone to record this meeting I mean I m happy to for the transcribers I could do it or Chuck or Adam 
Professor F: OK So you you were saying something about organizing the meeting info ? 
PhD D: So Jane and Adam and I had a meeting where we talked about the reorganization of the pause directory structure for all of the meeting 
Professor F: Did you record it ? 
PhD D: No For all the Meeting Recorder data We should have And so we ve got a plan for what we are going to do there And then Jane also s prepared a started getting all of the the meetings organized so she prepared a a spreadsheet which I spent the last couple of days adding to So I went through all of the data that we have collected so far and have been putting it into a spreadsheet with start time the date the old meeting name the new meeting name the number of speakers the duration of the meeting comments you know what its transcription status is all that kind of stuff And so the idea is that we can take this and then export it as HTML and put it on the Meeting Recorder web page so we can keep people updated about what s going on I ve got to get some more information from Jane cuz I have some some gaps here that I need to get her to fill in but so far as of Monday the fourteenth we ve had a total number of meeting sixty two hours of meetings that we have collected And some other interesting things average number of speakers per meeting is six and I m going to have on here the total amount that s been transcribed so far but I ve got a bunch of that s what I have to talk to Jane about figuring out exactly which ones have have been completed and so forth But this will be a nice thing that we can put up on the the web site and people can be informed of the status of various different ones And it will also list like under the status if it s at IBM or if it s at ICSI or if it s completed or which ones we are excluding and and there s a place for comments so we can say why we are excluding things and so forth So 
Professor F: Now would the ones that are already transcribed we h we have enough there that c you know we ve already done some studies and so forth and should not we go through and do the business es you of of having the participants approve it for approve the transcriptions for distribution and so forth ? 
Postdoc A: interesting idea In principle I I would say yes although I still am doing some the final pass editing trying to convert it over to the master file as the being the channelized version and it s it seems like I get into that a certain way and then something else intervenes comment and I have to stop Cleaning up the things like the places where the transcriber was uncertain and and doing spot checking here and there So I guess it would make sense to wait until th that s done but but 
Professor F: Well le let me put in another sort of a milestone kind of as as I did with the the the pipeline we are going to have this DARPA pause meeting in the middle of July and I think it w it would be given that we ve been we ve given a couple public talks about it already spaced by months and months I think it would be pretty bad if we continued to say none of this is available 
Postdoc A: It will certainly be done by then 
Professor F: Right So we can s we we want to be able to say `` here is a subset that is available right now `` and that s has been through the legal issues and so forth 
Postdoc A: That s right So that 
PhD C: And they do not have to approve you know th an edited version they can just give their approval to whatever version 
Professor F: Well in principle yes But I mean i if if if somebody actually did get into some legal issue with it then we 
PhD C: Bu But th I mean the editing will continue Presumably if if s errors are found they will be fixed but they will not change the the content of the meetings 
Postdoc A: Well see this is the this is the issue Subtleties 
PhD G: Well i if Jane is clarifying question question then you know how can they agree to it before they know her final version ? 
Postdoc A: The other thing too is there can be subtleties where a person uses this word instead of that word which comment could ve been transcribed in the other way And no and they would not have been slanderous if it had been this other word You know ? 
Professor F: I it you know there there is a point at which I agree it becomes ridiculous because you know you could do this final thing and then a year from now somebody could say you know that should be a period and not a question mark Right ? And you do not you there s no way that we are going to go back and ask everybody `` do you approve this you know this document now ? `` So So I think what it is is that the the the the thing that they sign I I have not looked at it in a while but it has to be open enough that it sort of says `` OK from now on you know now that I ve read this you can use do anything you want with these data `` And But i I think we want to So assuming that it s in that kind of wording which I do not remember I think i we just want to have enough confidence ourselves that it s so close to the final form it s going to be in a year from now that they are 
Postdoc A: Mm I agree Mmm I totally agree It s just a question of if if the person is using the transcript as the way of them judging what they said and whether it was slanderous then it seems like it s it s i it needs to be more correct than if we could count on them re listening to the meeting Because it becomes eh in a way a a f a legal document i if they ve agreed to that",The final english SmartKom demo will be presented to the whole institute once the system is de-bugged and stabilised.
"Professor F: Ah ! Well that s always good to do 
PhD C: But one issue actually that just came up in discussion with Liz and and Don was as far as meeting recognition is concerned we would really like to move to doing the recognition on automatic segmentations Because in all our previous experiments we had the you know we were essentially cheating by having the you know the h the hand segmentations as the basis of the recognition","Segmentation for the recogniser has been done by hand which the group consider ""cheating"", instead now they want to use Thilo's automatic segmenter."
"Professor F: Ah ! Well that s always good to do 
PhD C: But one issue actually that just came up in discussion with Liz and and Don was as far as meeting recognition is concerned we would really like to move to doing the recognition on automatic segmentations Because in all our previous experiments we had the you know we were essentially cheating by having the you know the h the hand segmentations as the basis of the recognition And so now with Thilo s segmenter working so well I think we should pause consider doing a 
Professor F: Y think you think we should increase the error rate","The classifier segmentation work is going well, but needs more data to improve results since non-native speaker data cannot be used."
"PhD G: So we do need some kind of pre segmentation 
PhD C: We should we should consider doing some extra things like you know retraining or adapting the the models for background noise to the to this environment for instance 
PhD G: And using Thilo s you know posteriors or some kind of or right now they are they are discrete","To improve the performance of Thilo's automatic segmenter, this is going to be retrained and adapted to run with Thilo's posteriors and speaker background models."
"PhD C: actually to s eh what I observed in the HM case is that the number of deletion dramatically increases It it doubles When I added the num the neural network it doubles the number of deletions so I do not you know how to interpret that but mmm 
PhD A: And and did an other numbers stay the same ? Insertion substitutions stay the same ? 
PhD C: They p stayed the same they maybe they are a little bit lower They are a little bit better But 
Professor B: Did they increase the number of deletions even for the cases that got better ? Say for the I mean it So it s only the highly mismatched ? And it Remind me again the `` highly mismatched `` means that the 
PhD C: It s clean training Well close microphone training and distant microphone high speed I think Well The most noisy cases are the distant microphone for testing 
Professor B: Right So Well maybe the noise subtraction is subtracting off speech 
PhD C: But I mean but without the neural network it s well it s better It s just when we add the neural networks The feature are the same except that 
Professor B: that s right that s right 
PhD A: Well that that says that you know the the models in in the recognizer are really paying attention to the neural net features 
Professor B: But actually nonvocalsound the TIMIT noises pause are sort of a range of noises and they are not so much the stationary driving kind of noises right ? It s it s pretty different Is not it ? 
PhD C: there is a car noise So there are f just four noises `` Car `` I think `` Babble `` `` Subway `` right ? and 
PhD D: `` Street `` or `` Airport `` or something 
PhD C: and `` Street `` is not 
PhD D: Or `` Train station `` 
PhD C: So it s mostly Well `` Car `` is stationary `` Babble `` it s a stationary background plus some voices some speech over it And the other two are rather stationary also 
Professor B: Well I I think that if you run it Actually you maybe you remember this When you in in the old experiments when you ran with the neural net only and did not have this side path with the the pure features as well did it make things better to have the neural net ? Was it about the same ? w i 
PhD C: It was b a little bit worse 
Professor B: So until you put the second path in with the pure features the neural net was not helping at all 
PhD C: It was helping if the features are b were bad I mean Just plain P L Ps or M F C Cs as soon as we added LDA on line normalization and all these things then 
Professor B: They were doing similar enough things Well I still think it would be k sort of interesting to see what would happen if you just had the neural net without the side thing And and the thing I I have in mind is maybe you will see that the results are not just a little bit worse Maybe that they are a lot worse You know ? And But if on the ha other hand it s say somewhere in between what you are seeing now and and and what you would have with just the pure features then maybe there is some problem of a of a combination of these things or correlation between them somehow If it really is that the net is hurting you at the moment then I think the issue is to focus on on improving the the net So what s the overall effe I mean you have not done all the experiments but you said it was i somewhat better say five percent better for the first two conditions and fifteen percent worse for the other one ? But it s but of course that one s weighted lower so I wonder what the net effect is 
PhD C: I d I I think it s it was one or two percent That s not that bad but it was l like two percent relative worse on SpeechDat Car I have to to check that Well I have I will 
PhD D: Well it will overall it will be still better even if it is fifteen percent worse because the fifteen percent worse is given like f w twenty five point two five eight 
Professor B: Right So the so the worst it could be if the others were exactly the same is four and and in fact since the others are somewhat better 
PhD D: so it s four Is i So either it will get cancelled out or you will get like almost the same 
PhD C: it was it was slightly worse 
Professor B: it should be pretty close to cancelled out 
PhD A: You know I ve been wondering about something In the a lot of the the Hub five systems recently have been using LDA and and they They run LDA on the features right before they train the models So there s the the LDA is is right there before the H M So you guys are using LDA but it seems like it s pretty far back in the process 
PhD D: this LDA is different from the LDA that you are talking about The LDA that you saying is like you take a block of features like nine frames or something comment and then do an LDA on it and then reduce the dimensionality to something like twenty four or something like that 
PhD A: you c you c you can 
PhD D: And then feed it to HMM 
PhD A: I mean it s you know you are just basically i 
PhD D: so this is like a two d two dimensional tile 
PhD A: You are shifting the feature space 
PhD D: So this is a two dimensional tile And the LDA that we are f applying is only in time not in frequency high cost frequency So it s like more like a filtering in time rather than doing a r 
PhD A: Ah OK So what i what about i you what i w I mean I do not know if this is a good idea or not but what if you put ran the other kind of LDA on your features right before they go into the HMM ? 
PhD C: Mm No actually I think i Well What do we do with the ANN is is something like that except that it s not linear But it s it s like a nonlinear discriminant analysis 
PhD A: Right it s the It s Right The So so it s sort of like The tandem stuff is kind of like i nonlinear LDA But I mean w but the other features that you have th the non tandem ones 
PhD C: Mm I know That that Well in the proposal they were transformed you using PCA but it might be that LDA could be better 
Professor B: The a the argument i is kind of i in and it s not like we really know but the argument anyway is that we always have the prob I mean discriminative things are good LDA neural nets they are good they are good because you you you learn to distinguish between these categories that you want to be good at distinguishing between And PCA does not do that It PAC PCA low order PCA throws away pieces that are maybe not not going to be helpful just because they are small basically But the problem is training sets are not perfect and testing sets are different So you f you you face the potential problem with discriminative stuff be it LDA or neural nets that you are training to discriminate between categories in one space but what you are really going to be g getting is is something else And so Stephane s idea was let s feed both this discriminatively trained thing and something that s not So you have a good set of features that everybody s worked really hard to make and then you you discriminately train it but you also take the path that that does not have that and putting those in together And that that seem So it s kind of like a combination of the what Dan has been calling you know a feature you know a feature combination versus posterior combination or something It s it s you know you have the posterior combination but then you get the features from that and use them as a feature combination with these these other things And that seemed at least in the last one as he was just saying he he when he only did discriminative stuff i it actually was was it did not help at all in this particular case There was enough of a difference I guess between the testing and training But by having them both there The fact is some of the time the discriminative stuff is going to help you And some of the time it s going to hurt you and by combining two information sources if you know if if 
PhD A: So you would not necessarily then want to do LDA on the non tandem features because now you are doing something to them that 
Professor B: That i i I think that s counter to that idea Now again it s we are just trying these different things We do not really know what s going to work best But if that s the hypothesis at least it would be counter to that hypothesis to do that","Adding the neural net was doubling the number of deletions. The model did not improve significantly, however, thought it became better at some tasks. The results were a mixed basket and it was decided that further experimentation was necessary."
"Professor B: Well I I think that if you run it Actually you maybe you remember this When you in in the old experiments when you ran with the neural net only and did not have this side path with the the pure features as well did it make things better to have the neural net ? Was it about the same ? w i 
PhD C: It was b a little bit worse 
Professor B: So until you put the second path in with the pure features the neural net was not helping at all 
PhD C: It was helping if the features are b were bad I mean Just plain P L Ps or M F C Cs as soon as we added LDA on line normalization and all these things then 
Professor B: They were doing similar enough things Well I still think it would be k sort of interesting to see what would happen if you just had the neural net without the side thing And and the thing I I have in mind is maybe you will see that the results are not just a little bit worse Maybe that they are a lot worse You know ? And But if on the ha other hand it s say somewhere in between what you are seeing now and and and what you would have with just the pure features then maybe there is some problem of a of a combination of these things or correlation between them somehow If it really is that the net is hurting you at the moment then I think the issue is to focus on on improving the the net So what s the overall effe I mean you have not done all the experiments but you said it was i somewhat better say five percent better for the first two conditions and fifteen percent worse for the other one ? But it s but of course that one s weighted lower so I wonder what the net effect is 
PhD C: I d I I think it s it was one or two percent That s not that bad but it was l like two percent relative worse on SpeechDat Car I have to to check that Well I have I will 
PhD D: Well it will overall it will be still better even if it is fifteen percent worse because the fifteen percent worse is given like f w twenty five point two five eight 
Professor B: Right So the so the worst it could be if the others were exactly the same is four and and in fact since the others are somewhat better 
PhD D: so it s four Is i So either it will get cancelled out or you will get like almost the same 
PhD C: it was it was slightly worse 
Professor B: it should be pretty close to cancelled out 
PhD A: You know I ve been wondering about something In the a lot of the the Hub five systems recently have been using LDA and and they They run LDA on the features right before they train the models So there s the the LDA is is right there before the H M So you guys are using LDA but it seems like it s pretty far back in the process 
PhD D: this LDA is different from the LDA that you are talking about The LDA that you saying is like you take a block of features like nine frames or something comment and then do an LDA on it and then reduce the dimensionality to something like twenty four or something like that 
PhD A: you c you c you can 
PhD D: And then feed it to HMM 
PhD A: I mean it s you know you are just basically i 
PhD D: so this is like a two d two dimensional tile 
PhD A: You are shifting the feature space 
PhD D: So this is a two dimensional tile And the LDA that we are f applying is only in time not in frequency high cost frequency So it s like more like a filtering in time rather than doing a r 
PhD A: Ah OK So what i what about i you what i w I mean I do not know if this is a good idea or not but what if you put ran the other kind of LDA on your features right before they go into the HMM ? 
PhD C: Mm No actually I think i Well What do we do with the ANN is is something like that except that it s not linear But it s it s like a nonlinear discriminant analysis 
PhD A: Right it s the It s Right The So so it s sort of like The tandem stuff is kind of like i nonlinear LDA But I mean w but the other features that you have th the non tandem ones 
PhD C: Mm I know That that Well in the proposal they were transformed you using PCA but it might be that LDA could be better 
Professor B: The a the argument i is kind of i in and it s not like we really know but the argument anyway is that we always have the prob I mean discriminative things are good LDA neural nets they are good they are good because you you you learn to distinguish between these categories that you want to be good at distinguishing between And PCA does not do that It PAC PCA low order PCA throws away pieces that are maybe not not going to be helpful just because they are small basically But the problem is training sets are not perfect and testing sets are different So you f you you face the potential problem with discriminative stuff be it LDA or neural nets that you are training to discriminate between categories in one space but what you are really going to be g getting is is something else And so Stephane s idea was let s feed both this discriminatively trained thing and something that s not So you have a good set of features that everybody s worked really hard to make and then you you discriminately train it but you also take the path that that does not have that and putting those in together And that that seem So it s kind of like a combination of the what Dan has been calling you know a feature you know a feature combination versus posterior combination or something It s it s you know you have the posterior combination but then you get the features from that and use them as a feature combination with these these other things And that seemed at least in the last one as he was just saying he he when he only did discriminative stuff i it actually was was it did not help at all in this particular case There was enough of a difference I guess between the testing and training But by having them both there The fact is some of the time the discriminative stuff is going to help you And some of the time it s going to hurt you and by combining two information sources if you know if if 
PhD A: So you would not necessarily then want to do LDA on the non tandem features because now you are doing something to them that 
Professor B: That i i I think that s counter to that idea Now again it s we are just trying these different things We do not really know what s going to work best But if that s the hypothesis at least it would be counter to that hypothesis to do that and in principle you would think that the neural net would do better at the discriminant part than LDA 
PhD A: Exactly I mean we we were getting ready to do the tandem stuff for the Hub five system and Andreas and I talked about it and the idea w the thought was `` Well that i you know th the neural net should be better but we should at least have a number you know to show that we did try the LDA in place of the neural net so that we can you know show a clear path You know that you have it without it then you have the LDA then you have the neural net and you can see theoretically So I was just wondering I I 
Professor B: Well I think that s a good idea Did did you do that or tha that s a 
PhD A: That s what that s what we are going to do next as soon as I finish this other thing So 
Professor B: No well that s a good idea I I 
PhD A: We just want to show I mean it everybody believes it 
Professor B: Oh no it s a g 
PhD A: but you know we just 
Professor B: No no but it might not not even be true I mean it s it s it s it s it s a great idea I mean one of the things that always disturbed me in the the resurgence of neural nets that happened in the eighties was that a lot of people Because neural nets were pretty easy to to use a lot of people were just using them for all sorts of things without looking at all into the linear versions of them","The professor was interested in knowing what impact the neural net had in the older models which did not have pure features. The professor believed it was worthwhile to improve the net, though he also expressed that nets were occasionally over used."
"PhD C: Well The most noisy cases are the distant microphone for testing 
Professor B: Right So Well maybe the noise subtraction is subtracting off speech 
PhD C: But I mean but without the neural network it s well it s better It s just when we add the neural networks The feature are the same except that 
Professor B: that s right that s right 
PhD A: Well that that says that you know the the models in in the recognizer are really paying attention to the neural net features 
Professor B: But actually nonvocalsound the TIMIT noises pause are sort of a range of noises and they are not so much the stationary driving kind of noises right ? It s it s pretty different Is not it ? 
PhD C: there is a car noise So there are f just four noises `` Car `` I think `` Babble `` `` Subway `` right ? and 
PhD D: `` Street `` or `` Airport `` or something 
PhD C: and `` Street `` is not 
PhD D: Or `` Train station `` 
PhD C: So it s mostly Well `` Car `` is stationary `` Babble `` it s a stationary background plus some voices some speech over it And the other two are rather stationary also 
Professor B: Well I I think that if you run it Actually you maybe you remember this When you in in the old experiments when you ran with the neural net only and did not have this side path with the the pure features as well did it make things better to have the neural net ? Was it about the same ? w i 
PhD C: It was b a little bit worse 
Professor B: So until you put the second path in with the pure features the neural net was not helping at all 
PhD C: It was helping if the features are b were bad I mean Just plain P L Ps or M F C Cs as soon as we added LDA on line normalization and all these things then 
Professor B: They were doing similar enough things Well I still think it would be k sort of interesting to see what would happen if you just had the neural net without the side thing And and the thing I I have in mind is maybe you will see that the results are not just a little bit worse Maybe that they are a lot worse You know ? And But if on the ha other hand it s say somewhere in between what you are seeing now and and and what you would have with just the pure features then maybe there is some problem of a of a combination of these things or correlation between them somehow If it really is that the net is hurting you at the moment then I think the issue is to focus on on improving the the net","The team thought that the most noisy cases were the distant microphone testing. That is when there were non-stationary noises in the background, like from a car, a babble or subway. These presented a unique challenge for the model that could potentially be best solved with a neural net."
"PhD C: I ve been playing with first the VAD so it s exactly the same approach but the features that the VAD neural network use are MFCC after noise compensation Oh I think I have the results 
Professor B: What was it using before ? 
PhD C: Before it was just P L 
PhD D: it was actually No Not I mean it was just the noisy features I guess 
PhD C: This is what we get after This So actually we here the features are noise compensated and there is also the LDA filter and then it s a pretty small neural network which use nine frames of of six features from C zero to C fives plus the first derivatives And it has one hundred hidden units 
PhD A: Is that nine frames you s centered around the current frame ? Or 
Professor B: S so I m I m sorry there s there s there s how many how many inputs ? 
PhD C: So it s twelve times nine 
Professor B: Twelve times nine inputs and a hundred hidden Two outputs OK So I guess about eleven thousand parameters which actually should not be a problem even in in small phones 
PhD A: So I m I m s so what is different between this and and what you 
PhD C: It should be OK So the previous syst It s based on the system that has a fifty three point sixty six percent improvement It s the same system The only thing that changed is the n a p eh a es the estimation of the silence probabilities Which now is based on cleaned features 
Professor B: And it s a l it s a lot better 
PhD C: So it s it s not bad but the problem is still that the latency is too large 
Professor B: What s the latency ? 
PhD C: Because the the latency of the VAD is two hundred and twenty milliseconds And the VAD is used i for on line normalization and it s used before the delta computation So if you add these components it goes t to a hundred and seventy right ? 
Professor B: I I m confused You started off with two twenty and you ended up with one seventy ? 
PhD C: With two an two hundred and seventy If if you add the c delta comp delta computation 
Professor B: So it s two twenty I the is this are these twenty millisecond frames ? Is that why ? Is it after downsampling ? or 
PhD C: The two twenty is one hundred milliseconds for the No it s forty milliseconds for t for the cleaning of the speech then there is the neural network which use nine frames So it adds forty milliseconds after that you have the filtering of the silence probabilities Which is a million filter it and it creates a one hundred milliseconds delay So 
PhD D: Plus there is a delta at the input 
PhD C: and there is the delta at the input which is 
Professor B: One hundred milliseconds for smoothing 
PhD D: It s like forty plus forty plus 
PhD C: Mmm Forty This forty plus twenty plus one hundred 
PhD D: So it s two hundred actually 
PhD C: there are twenty that comes from There is ten that comes from the LDA filters also Right ? so it s two hundred and ten 
PhD D: t If you are using three frames 
PhD C: so it s two twenty 
PhD D: If you are phrasing f comment using three frames it is thirty here for delta 
PhD C: I think it s it s five frames but 
PhD D: So five frames that s twenty OK so it s who un comment two hundred and ten 
Professor B: p Wait a minute It s forty forty for the for the cleaning of the speech forty for the I N ANN a hundred for the smoothing 
PhD D: At th nonvocalsound At the input I mean that s at the input to the net 
Professor B: Delta at input to net ? 
PhD D: So it s like s five six cepstrum plus delta at nine nine frames of 
Professor B: And then ten milliseconds for 
PhD D: Fi There s an LDA filter 
Professor B: ten milliseconds for LDA filter and t and ten another ten milliseconds you said for the frame ? 
PhD C: For the frame I guess I computed two twenty well it s I guess it s for the fr the 
Professor B: OK And then there s delta besides that ? 
PhD C: So this is the features that are used by our network and then afterwards you have to compute the delta on the main feature stream which is delta and double deltas which is fifty milliseconds 
Professor B: No I mean the after the noise part the forty the the other hundred and eighty Well I mean Wait a minute Some of this is is is in parallel is not it ? I mean the LDA Oh you have the LDA as part of the V D VAD ? Or 
PhD C: The VAD use LDA filtered features also 
Professor B: Ah So in that case there is not too much in parallel 
PhD C: No There is just downsampling upsampling and the LDA 
Professor B: so the delta at the end is how much ? 
PhD C: But well we could probably put the delta before on line normalization It should not that make a big difference 
PhD A: What if you used a smaller window for the delta ? Could that help a little bit ? I mean I guess there s a lot of things you could do to 
Professor B: So if you if you put the delta before the ana on line If then then it could go in parallel",The VAD neural net had twelve times nine inputs and two outputs. The system had improved significantly. It added some latency but the team could potentially run it in parallel.
"Professor B: What s the latency ? 
PhD C: Because the the latency of the VAD is two hundred and twenty milliseconds And the VAD is used i for on line normalization and it s used before the delta computation So if you add these components it goes t to a hundred and seventy right ? 
Professor B: I I m confused You started off with two twenty and you ended up with one seventy ? 
PhD C: With two an two hundred and seventy If if you add the c delta comp delta computation 
Professor B: So it s two twenty I the is this are these twenty millisecond frames ? Is that why ? Is it after downsampling ? or 
PhD C: The two twenty is one hundred milliseconds for the No it s forty milliseconds for t for the cleaning of the speech then there is the neural network which use nine frames So it adds forty milliseconds after that you have the filtering of the silence probabilities Which is a million filter it and it creates a one hundred milliseconds delay So 
PhD D: Plus there is a delta at the input 
PhD C: and there is the delta at the input which is 
Professor B: One hundred milliseconds for smoothing 
PhD D: It s like forty plus forty plus 
PhD C: Mmm Forty This forty plus twenty plus one hundred 
PhD D: So it s two hundred actually 
PhD C: there are twenty that comes from There is ten that comes from the LDA filters also Right ? so it s two hundred and ten 
PhD D: t If you are using three frames 
PhD C: so it s two twenty 
PhD D: If you are phrasing f comment using three frames it is thirty here for delta 
PhD C: I think it s it s five frames but 
PhD D: So five frames that s twenty OK so it s who un comment two hundred and ten 
Professor B: p Wait a minute It s forty forty for the for the cleaning of the speech forty for the I N ANN a hundred for the smoothing 
PhD D: At th nonvocalsound At the input I mean that s at the input to the net 
Professor B: Delta at input to net ? 
PhD D: So it s like s five six cepstrum plus delta at nine nine frames of 
Professor B: And then ten milliseconds for 
PhD D: Fi There s an LDA filter 
Professor B: ten milliseconds for LDA filter and t and ten another ten milliseconds you said for the frame ? 
PhD C: For the frame I guess I computed two twenty well it s I guess it s for the fr the 
Professor B: OK And then there s delta besides that ? 
PhD C: So this is the features that are used by our network and then afterwards you have to compute the delta on the main feature stream which is delta and double deltas which is fifty milliseconds 
Professor B: No I mean the after the noise part the forty the the other hundred and eighty Well I mean Wait a minute Some of this is is is in parallel is not it ? I mean the LDA Oh you have the LDA as part of the V D VAD ? Or 
PhD C: The VAD use LDA filtered features also 
Professor B: Ah So in that case there is not too much in parallel 
PhD C: No There is just downsampling upsampling and the LDA 
Professor B: so the delta at the end is how much ? 
PhD C: But well we could probably put the delta before on line normalization It should not that make a big difference 
PhD A: What if you used a smaller window for the delta ? Could that help a little bit ? I mean I guess there s a lot of things you could do to 
Professor B: So if you if you put the delta before the ana on line If then then it could go in parallel And then y then you do not have that additive 
PhD C: cuz the time constant of the on line normalization is pretty long compared to the delta window so It should not make 
Professor B: OK And you ought to be able to shove tw sh pull off twenty milliseconds from somewhere else to get it under two hundred right ? I mean 
PhD A: Is two hundred the d 
Professor B: mill a hundred milliseconds for smoothing is sort of an arbitrary amount It could be eighty and and probably do 
PhD A: Wh what s the baseline you need to be under ? Two hundred ? 
Professor B: Well we do not know They are still arguing about it",The professor wanted to know how much latency the VAD was adding to the model. The professor thought that the process could work in parallel. The professor informed the team that the max latency was unknown.
"PhD C: after that you have the filtering of the silence probabilities Which is a million filter it and it creates a one hundred milliseconds delay So 
PhD D: Plus there is a delta at the input 
PhD C: and there is the delta at the input which is 
Professor B: One hundred milliseconds for smoothing 
PhD D: It s like forty plus forty plus 
PhD C: Mmm Forty This forty plus twenty plus one hundred 
PhD D: So it s two hundred actually 
PhD C: there are twenty that comes from There is ten that comes from the LDA filters also Right ? so it s two hundred and ten 
PhD D: t If you are using three frames 
PhD C: so it s two twenty 
PhD D: If you are phrasing f comment using three frames it is thirty here for delta 
PhD C: I think it s it s five frames but 
PhD D: So five frames that s twenty OK so it s who un comment two hundred and ten 
Professor B: p Wait a minute It s forty forty for the for the cleaning of the speech forty for the I N ANN a hundred for the smoothing 
PhD D: At th nonvocalsound At the input I mean that s at the input to the net","PhD C explained that the silence probabilities had a 100ms delay, the delta at the input had a 40ms delay, and a 10ms delay was created by LDA filters."
"Marketing: Ha Mm Right I have been searching the current trends both on the web and via fashionwatchers and the findings are that the first thing to aim for is a fashion fancy look and feel Next comes technologic technology and the innovations to do with that And th last thing is the easy to use factor fancy look and feel goes far beyond the functionality of the thing but I suppose that is included in in the ease of use our fashionwatchers in Milan and Paris have decided well noticed that f the fruit and vegetable theme is the is the current trend and and therefore we need to go for that if we want you know wh whatever our motto is For fashion we go for fashion The fashion in electronics So we want to put the fashion electronics we need to go fruit and vegetables And also go for a spongy feel so the the question of our technology whate is Industrial Designer As to the material should be limited to I do not know how spongy it can be should discuss this together I do not know how spongy can be achieved but apparently that is the way to go I I have been thinking about this fruit and vegetable thing and I prefer fruits to vegetables but that is just a personal opinion I think people like to have a fruit instead of a vegetables in their sitting room those are just suggestions and also we need to decide whether this should be printed so that still has to do with the material discuss should we print the fruit stuff or should the actual remote look like a fruit ? and finally again with the spongy It has to be technologically innovative so maybe again our Industrial Designer should look into that or find come up with a solution that is better than mine to summarise these are the points that need to be touched in order to get a good decision and hopefully our User Interface has more to say about the matter Thank you for your attention 
Project Manager: I think it is the next it is the blue one 
User Interface: Oh there we go Well so that fruit and vegetables thing huh I actually was not aware of the new trends in electronics 
Marketing: Neither was I Well it is a trend in fashion in clothing and fabrics 
Project Manager: but you are not going to wear your remote control","Marketing proposed that the fancy look and feel were more important than the functionality of the product. The fruit and vegetable theme was the current trend, and marketing himself preferred fruits to vegetables. Therefore, how spongy the material could be should be taken into consideration when choosing the materials. The potential materials to accomplish the fruit and vegetable theme could be a sort of rubber, which was used in the stress balls. The alternative option was to use a cover for it, and choose a colour that fits one's sitting room."
"Project Manager: Would anybody like to go first ? 
Industrial Designer: So I have been looking at the components design Mostly by consulting remote control diagrams from the internet and also by incorporating design ideas from the last project meeting so we need some custom design parts and other parts we will just use standard I assume we will be custom designing our case probably a hard plastic or some other material case to protect the remote and the locator And we will need to custom desi design a circuit board because the circuit board has to take the button input and send it to the output so you have to design that each time But once we come up with a design we will send it to the circuit people and they will just print it out standard parts include the buttons and the wheels the iPodstyle wheel The infrared LED is actually going to be included in the circuit board that comes with it we need a radio sender and receiver those are standard And al we also need a beeper or buzzer or other sort of noise thing for locating the remote So we have some material options we can use rubber plastic wood or titanium I would recommend against titanium because it can only be used in the flat cases and it is really heavy and the rubber case requires rubber buttons so if we definitely want plastic buttons we should not have a rubber case 
Project Manager: And why not wood ? And why not wood ? 
Industrial Designer: ? well we can use wood I do not know why we would want to and also we should note that if we want an iPodstyle wheel button it is going to require a m qu slightly more expensive chip We can not use the minimal chip we need the next higher grade which is called regular I do not think it is much more expensive but it is more expensive So that is what I have got on design","Industrial Designer thought some parts needed custom design, and other parts should just use standard. For example, the case needed custom design to protect the remote and the locator, and the circuit board needed custom design as well, while the buttons and the wheels, radio sender and receiver were all standard parts. In addition, beeper or other noise things were needed as well for locating the remote. Rubber, plastic, wood and titanium were options of materials, but better not titanium. Regular chips were required if the iPod-style wheel button was used."
"Project Manager: I think it is the next it is the blue one 
User Interface: Oh there we go Well so that fruit and vegetables thing huh I actually was not aware of the new trends in electronics 
Marketing: Neither was I Well it is a trend in fashion in clothing and fabrics 
Project Manager: but you are not going to wear your remote control 
User Interface: So so let me get this right alright anyway here we go Conceptual User Interface Trying we are going to try to talk about what kind of how people are actually going to be using this iPodish remote control based on fruit vegetable design And basically so this is a touched ba a touchbased graphical interface system so people are going to be looking at this little screen kind of I mean I assume are we still on the screen idea ? 
Project Manager: Oh we s had not discussed it last time 
User Interface: Because if we are going to have to ha if we have this it just seems like in order to have someone going around and using the the wheel 
Project Manager: You need a screen for it ? 
User Interface: you it seems like you would need a screen 
Industrial Designer: You need a screen with music because you are looking for a specific song like you know that band or whatever With TV channels it is you know one two three So 
User Interface: But like if you think about it but if so is it just So b you you are going to have to switch to like DVD and like other things like that are not you ? 
Project Manager: We are we are actually not having DVD that was one of th I I was I I meant to update you on that 
Marketing: But the screen can come up on the telly the she said 
User Interface: So anyway if well we just we need to so if we are not going to have a screen I think I was thinking So basically it is just going to be a wheel then ? And you are just going to I mean I think you are going to have to have some kind of a right 
Marketing: on the you can have it on the telly though 
User Interface: like you are going to have to be able to switch to like a mode where you can we are not choosing that I guess But like choose channel control like if you wa Because people are not going to be able to have like you know channels one two three four five six seven eight nine So that people seems to be well 
Project Manager: You have I know what you are saying you have to 
User Interface: You know But you are going to have to scroll to get channels So I guess that is wh why I was thinking you may need to have some kind of a screen because So that people can go arou go back and forth and choose if or or then again if you just I guess I c I can see like some kind of a thing where like you sort of have like the number come up on the TV like what channel you are on You can just scroll and you can just get to like five or like twelve or 
Project Manager: But but imagine someone with s 
Industrial Designer: My flatmates actually had one with a wheel and it it did show up on the TV 
Project Manager: But i what if you have satellite and you have like two hundred channels Then to get to channel one eighty nine you have to 
User Interface: Because you will have to like 
Industrial Designer: They have to r wheel really fast 
User Interface: but you can quickly s you can 
Industrial Designer: But I think the wheel goes through like a hundred channels 
User Interface: if you do it w so it would have to be you I mean so you basically just kind of need to figure out like what kind of you know range we need to have on the wheel and So you are either you are you know th you are either doing this motion to like control the channels or like once once you stop that you know you can like tap for different whatchamacallits different you know functions like volume or like you can tap just to get to different channels Like if you just wanted to go to like from five to six you could tap or someth And then there is also the concern about you know how do you get to the menu if you want to change the brightness of your television or if you want to you know switch around I do not know like these different modes like turn on the timer or like something something like that 
Project Manager: I mean with that many options you would I would think that the screen would be better because you could have that menu option sort of 
User Interface: I would think so too like So I mean and it seems it w it does seem a little silly to have this screen if you hardly are ever using it you know because but then again it would it does make kind of if the screens sort of just like an option that like is just there and you are not really using it that is kind of 
Industrial Designer: It is more expensive according to the design people 
User Interface: that is the only thing though 
Industrial Designer: You have to get a an advanced chip if you want to have a screen in which is more expensive than the regular chip which is more expensive than the minimal 
User Interface: So then basically it has to have some way to get to get to a mode on the television where you are doing You can get to you know you can Like maybe it will be that central button that like then you hit that and then you can it brings up like the menu on the TV and you can just scroll around like to do the timer to do the 
Project Manager: So the TV is the screen that So it would have all these different options of changing 
User Interface: But the remote itself is not really cluttered up 
Marketing: Look it even has settings you can just take theirs and just 
User Interface: well we do not want the screen I guess but because that just it does seem like it that would be like incredibly expensive but I do not know and then so it just i am really all you need is like this little wheel then and you can control everything","User Interface assumed they were going to have a screen at first, since User Interface thought a screen was necessary for people to visualize things such as a specific song when looking for one. However, since adding a screen cost more money, and TV could be used as the screen, they finally decided that screen was not necessary."
"Project Manager: Oh right right so what d but what do we know about energy ? I mean we are going to use batteries right ? And 
Industrial Designer: we actually had an option of batteries solar power and a dynamo which is something I do not know what it is Something to do with torches 
Marketing: Oh a dynamo is ah it is a bicycle It is a bicycle mechanism It is the en it is like if if something moves when it moves it stores energy 
Industrial Designer: Oh the other one was the other one was a kinetic thing where you would basically have to wind it yourself So I sort of picked battery We could have talked about doing a windup or a dynamo or a solar power but I think solar powers not available with the rubber case anyways 
Project Manager: I think batteries sound good 
Industrial Designer: It it seems a little weird for a living room anyways 
Project Manager: What does everyone else think ? 
User Interface: The dynamo would be interesting 
Marketing: No But dynamo the the fact with dynamo is the moment you move it it c it creates energy on its own Which is quite cool So if you throw it it is going to store loads of energy and you do not need to buy a battery because they are quite f I find them annoying But we need to find cost Do not know the cost 
Industrial Designer: Did not have enough data to actually 
Marketing: Does anyone have costs on the on the web ? 
Industrial Designer: All it said was it gave sort of relative some chips are more expensive than others sort of things It did not give me any actual cost Most of the stuff is pretty cheap though bought in bulk So I do not think it is that much of a problem Like the chip is probably the most expensive part","Battery, solar power, dynamo, Kryptonite were potential options of the energy. They ended up with a preference on Kryptonite. Even though they could not find an exact price for it, it would not be more expensive than a chip."
"Industrial Designer: we actually had an option of batteries solar power and a dynamo which is something I do not know what it is Something to do with torches 
Marketing: Oh a dynamo is ah it is a bicycle It is a bicycle mechanism It is the en it is like if if something moves when it moves it stores energy 
Industrial Designer: Oh the other one was the other one was a kinetic thing where you would basically have to wind it yourself So I sort of picked battery We could have talked about doing a windup or a dynamo or a solar power but I think solar powers not available with the rubber case anyways 
Project Manager: I think batteries sound good 
Industrial Designer: It it seems a little weird for a living room anyways","Industrial Designer preferred battery. Industrial Designer was not very familiar with dynamo. Wind-up or a dynamo or a solar power were all possible, but solar power would not be available with the rubber case."
"Marketing: Which is quite cool So if you throw it it is going to store loads of energy and you do not need to buy a battery because they are quite f I find them annoying But we need to find cost Do not know the cost 
Industrial Designer: Did not have enough data to actually 
Marketing: Does anyone have costs on the on the web ? 
Industrial Designer: All it said was it gave sort of relative some chips are more expensive than others sort of things It did not give me any actual cost Most of the stuff is pretty cheap though bought in bulk So I do not think it is that much of a problem Like the chip is probably the most expensive part","The website did not give an actual cost, but most of the stuff was cheap. The chip would be the most expensive part anyway, so the group should not worry about the cost of the Kryptonite too much."
Project Manager: So I think we have touched on a few things to do with that already but we will just go over it the minutes from the last time we had a couple of changes in our plans in that we could not use teletext it was not going to be a control for everything and that we had to incorporate the image of the company into it somehow we have decided on a leaving out the voice recognition we have decided on there being a flip design and a different shape from what is normal We were thinking a she will but something along those lines just a different shape from what is normal You were going to look into the rechargeable batteries and we were going to think about the port and an alarm for getting it lost and our market was going to be young business kind of range,"Teletext will not be used and there will not be a control for everything. The buttons should be easy to find. The image of the company is to be incorporated in the design and a flip design is decided. Voice recognition is left out. The shape of the remote will be different than normal, like a shell or something along those lines. An alarm will be added in case the remote is lost. The target market will be young business people."
Marketing: Thank you There we go so we decided on our market and so this feedback from the marketing department is really about trend watching the methods we used to decide on current trends and so on market trends were that we did our traditional our usual market research study with a hundred subjects and the the general feedback from them is that the most i am w I am sorry I am slightly tonguetied after lunch sorry Project Manager we decided on the most important aspect i required in a remote control device and we will come to that later So that was one of the first things we did Also with our company being forerunners in putting fashion into technology we also looked at a fashion update using our consultants on fashion and design in Paris and Milan so the general findings from that was in the market trends the most important aspect for remote controls were people want a fancy look and feel rather than the the current functional look and feel of remote controls They also also want a remote control to be technologically innovative and of course as we predicted that it should be easy to use Now I should point out that the first of those findings fancy look and feel is the most important is twice as important as the second technologically innovative which is in turn twice as important as being easy to use So possibly that the feature that we put first is actually third is still important but it is third in order of preference for the the subject group we looked at now the fashion update which relates to very personal preferences among our subject group we found from our consultants in Paris and Milan who des attended all the design and fashion fairs there that fruit and vegetables are going to be the theme for clothes shoes and furniture So should we be thinking of using something like that in our remote control design too ? There also seems to be a trend towards a spongy feel to materials again in contrast to last year So a lot of interesting feedback there both from our market research departments and from our people in Paris and Milan Be interesting to see what our design people make of that,Market research was done with a hundred subjects and Marketing concluded the most important aspect required in the device is a fancy look and feel. The second and third important aspects are technologically innovative and being easy to use. Fruits and vegetables can be taken into consideration when thinking about design themes as they were the themes of fashion fairs in Paris and Milan. There is also a trend towards a spongy feel to materials.
Industrial Designer: findings I have got my nice little picture there This is the chip called the TA double one eight three five which is what is used in pretty much every remote control because it sends out standard signals based on your input and it is pretty much used for all all TV remotes at the moment,"Industrial Designer explained that TA11835 is a chip used in pretty much every remote control to send out standard signals based on the input. On the other hand, most current remotes use a silicone printed circuit board (PCB board) which connects the circuits so that the messages would be sent to the chip. The size should be decided as the board can be custom made."
"Industrial Designer: and then we we are loo looking into battery options There is actually no rechargeable option available so we I saw the the standard double A and triple A which we thought were a bit bit too bulky at the moment dynamo charging I thought that that might be a bit silly to be to be honest 
Project Manager: Wa can you explain that ? 
Industrial Designer: people will not it is it is basically like windup radio So you wind up your remote control before you use it 
Project Manager: How what kind of how l long can you get out of that I mean can you pick it up and then wind it for two minutes and then that is it for the night ? Or 
Industrial Designer: You oh I presu you would not have to wind it for very long but I do not I do not think it is really sort of necessary when you th you think of the next two options like the the solar charging because most people have the light on in the room anyway so they could get when when you got TV 
Project Manager: That does not count though does it ? 
Marketing: Does does light charge as as sunlight does ? 
Project Manager: I thought it was UV like 
Industrial Designer: Is it ? Alright i 
User Interface: Yep Regarding those sizes which one you think will be light because we we have to take into consideration size also so maybe a standard triple A might take lesser space or and dynamo might take more space 
Industrial Designer: it would the d the dynamo would take more space because you actually need a physical sort of handle to wind up 
Project Manager: I am pretty sure that solar is from the sun I do not think it counts electric lights no but I mean not many you do not want to limit your market I mean people who live in basement flats there is not that many people but there are people 
Marketing: different parts of the world too if we are if we are marketing internationally 
Industrial Designer: and most people most people also watch TV in the in the night anyway 
Project Manager: Mm but then it would be charging through the day I think the point is that it charges through the day and then you have got it charged for the evening 
Industrial Designer: But I I think I think the the next ones the best anyway The the kinetic charging which is like you get it in r you get it in wrist watches and you d you do not even notice it I mean the amount the amount of probably moving around you would be doing all the time would would charge it up I do not think you would ever need to actually physically start shaking it up to make it work 
User Interface: And are these like what are the life of the kinetic battery it like it runs for long time ? 
Industrial Designer: it is it charges into some form of it is a smaller cell which it charges into and the si the size sort of a watch a watch battery because they use them quite frequently in watches And that will that would l would last for well I do I d I am not entirely sure how long it would last but I have never seen one run out 
Project Manager: But then if you think about a watch it is on your wrist so it is on your whole bod it is on your body the whole time so you are walking around you are doing things it is moving a lot of the time If you would I mean you switch the TV on then you put it on the side then you pick it up to change it and then you put it on the side Is it really going to be enough ? 
Industrial Designer: I I think it is because if you think about it the watch although it is only a tiny amount it is it is it is always moving for the whole day and they do not run out over night when you leave them on the side And th for the same the same reason you are only using it for a v incredibly short amount of time just to send the signal and then you are finished with it 
Project Manager: So it is not the draw on it is not 
Industrial Designer: no no I do I do not think the the draw on it would be 
Marketing: Could I just ask referring back to solar charging is that compatible with standard batteries ? I mean could people put standard batteries in but with a s you know they could leave it in the sunlight for solar charging 
Industrial Designer: Ye I think I th g y you could have a dual power thing 
Marketing: or the two things not compatible ? 
Project Manager: Like a dual kind of 
Industrial Designer: but the the thing with the solar cells is you would need to put them on the case and they because if you lie on a calculator they they are qui they are quite big and they all they all look i identical 
Marketing: Mm So that affects the exterior design 
User Interface: Solar would be slightly expensives 
Project Manager: Expensive as well What kind of price are we looking at for 
Industrial Designer: They are they are expensive they do not 
User Interface: It is twelve point f 
Project Manager: I presume the normal batteries are the cheapest ? 
Industrial Designer: the normal batteries would be the cheapest I would presume then it would actually be the the solar charging ones but the It is i I think they are not very resistant to dropping because if you drop stuff if you if you have y 
Project Manager: Well they are not designed 
Industrial Designer: the size you would need to charge a remote would not be that big but I mean if remotes always get thrown around and stuff so Y I think practically I mean calculators you do not really throw around a lot whereas remotes you do 
Project Manager: You do get a bit of wear but do not calculators have a battery in them as well ? 
Industrial Designer: they do they they have got dual things but they are the batteries are smaller I think 
User Interface: sorry W w which one would last the longest because we do not want customers to be like you know charging like a mobile phone every day so we have to s look at the life also 
Industrial Designer: so the the the s if you if you had something du using the standard batteries and the solar charging I do not think you would I think the it would d well you know how long the standard double As would last in or triple As would last 
Marketing: It would just detract from the attractiveness of the of the whole feature 
Industrial Designer: I think i I think it would 
Marketing: i it is not going to add anything 
Project Manager: can we add in an attachment to closing feature ? Can we think about that ? Because if we are doing the kinetic thing and it is 
Marketing: Should not we do some market research on that first before we add it in because I I personally 
Project Manager: Well add it in to think about because where am I ? If it is the kinetic thing and it is small and it is portable and it is a different shape and the kinetic is something people do not do kind of we are doing something original and different but if you wore it if it is something you could just clip on your pocket then you would have that less you you would not lose it so much But then maybe that is looking at someone who is just sitting on their own rather than the eternal battle for control of the controls 
Marketing: It is not something that is come up in any of our focus groups and market research it is not a thing that people are looking for when we threw it open to the field But it is something to put on the side to think about maybe","Standard AA and AAA are bulky but the cheapest. Dynamo and dual charging with normal batteries and solar charging take up too much space. Solar charging is the second cheapest but not resistant to dropping. Also, Project Manager believed it would limit the market. Kinetic charging is small and portable but market research should be done first. No rechargeable battery options were available. The remote could have a standby mode and the lights behind the buttons would be switched off after five or ten seconds when not in use."
"Industrial Designer: the case material I have a been sent what the factory can actually give us the there is the plastic which I think we were going to go for anyway as the main case case housing and the the main problems with the well you could go for wood but I think it would be a bit impractical Titanium very expensive just to process which to make it is expensive and rubber well you are saying that people like this spongy feel this year so perhaps some something made of rubber but I was thinking more of the buttons because the buttons which they have they have said that they have they have put across are what is used in some stress ball manufacture and it is meant to be anti RSI I am no I am not sure how that would work because surely your fingers would still be moving over the short distances but that is what they said the problem with the casing is that there is quite there is quite a few design restrictions that they have got on the shape of the case If you go for titanium they can only do a standard box shape whereas if you come to plastic they can they can be a little more they can they can do sort of curved shapes But whether whether or not because we would have it in two separate units 
User Interface: and second question is like a mobile you can change the cover you call it a skin or whatever So in this case if you are looking at like a customer can change the colour like from green parrot green to chilli red or something like that So is that feature available in like titanium or it is like only specific to plastic or 
Industrial Designer: in in titanium I do not I do not think it would be available at all really the ju just it w well you could make it available in the titanium it was just it would be so expensive to buy a new case for it because of the expense of how much titanium is is it is light and strong but I think it should be left for aircraft design rather than for for a remote 
Marketing: It does mark quite easily too if you let it fall I have got a mobile phone myself which is titanium and it does mark very easily if you drop it I was just wondering if we make the basic mould out of plastic but have like a rubber cover that goes over that would give the spongy feel that also allows us to kind of have different fasciae for the phone 
Industrial Designer: And you can peel them off 
Project Manager: So instead of the fascia that comes off being plastic the fascia that comes off would be the rubber 
Marketing: Like a rubber sleeve almost 
Project Manager: like those pens that you get with the grip that you can you can pull that off 
User Interface: That could be a good idea It could it would be comfortable to hold on also 
Marketing: Very cheap way of changing the look of it and people can just buy a new one if they want to 
Project Manager: Well that is been really popular with mobile phones so I do not see why not","Titanium is too expensive, would be easily dented and could only do a standard box shape whereas plastic could be made into different curved shapes. Marketing suggested making the basic mould out of plastic with a rubber cover, which would give a spongy feel and be a cheap way to change the look of the device. Industrial Designer, User Interface and Project Manager quickly jumped on board with this idea."
"Industrial Designer: just just going back to the interface designs with the buttons the I kno we were planning to do some sort of touch screen Now what I was saying before about instead of having you could have just a bare PCB circuit board and I am sure you could probably get it in different colours and so just by touching it with your finger it would make the connection over if you had them close enough that would be one option the second option th they offer rubber buttons but I thought that an LCD type of screen because one they are incredibly thin and do not take up much space two they you can have them in a sort of array and you can arrange the buttons on the screen in a sort of set thing and you could have them like a touch 
User Interface: Sorry I did not get the last part you are talking of Just what you said I I did not get the meaning of it completely you are saying like 
Industrial Designer: Oh on the on the LCD screen you could becau you could fit it the problem with it basically is that it is flat and so you can not do lots of curve curved things with it but you can you would not have with the LCD you would have the wires coming off you would not have that with the with the LCD you would only have that with the printed circuit board With W also with the 
Marketing: I do not s sorry to interrupt I do not see why the curved thing is a problem if we for example had a she will once we open that 
Project Manager: Oh it would be flat inside 
Industrial Designer: You could have a flat screen inside 
Marketing: so it would be f 
Industrial Designer: but I am just wondering whether we want an LCD screen inside 
Marketing: Have I misunderstood you ? 
Industrial Designer: It would not be like full colour it would just be black and white but there would be touch touch buttons so you would not be pressing down on them w or we could have rubber buttons which are made of this material which is antiRSI 
Project Manager: I think it would be good to have a contrast between if the whole thing is going to be this rubber thing it would be good to open it up and see something quite fancy looking inside Now how would you distinguish if you had it bare how would you distinguish where you had to press I mean 
Industrial Designer: I had not I had not really thought of that to be honest","The team planned to do touch screen and there are two options to choose from, a bare PCB circuit board which could be in different colours and making a connection by the touch of fingers, and anti RSI rubber buttons with a LCD type of screen. Industrial Designer doubted whether a LCD screen is wanted as it would only be in black and white but have not thought out how to distinguish where to press if the bare PCB circuit board is used."
"Marketing: I just had another idea I do not know if it helps with that but just to do with the RSI Is it possible just as an option when we open it up people can use their fingers to press the button or we have inside like a small pointer thing when people want to 
Industrial Designer: you could you could have some sort of stylus that you could pull out 
Project Manager: Like one of the palm pop thing 
Industrial Designer: but I I think they could get a bit easily lost 
User Interface: Absolutely f for somebody who very often if he would 
Project Manager: It would have to be attached 
Marketing: They are easy to replace as well cheap 
User Interface: a person who switches channels very often or does use a particular function very often will find it very irritating to use a and he might spoil the touchpad very fast compared to a button like if you keep punching with an pointer or whatever 
Marketing: just a thought they would not actually need one and they could use anything they have got could not they ? A pencil or a pen so they would not really need a",Industrial Designer thought it would be lost easily and Marketing responded that it would be easy and cheap to replace or a pencil or pen could be used instead. User Interface pointed out that a person who switches channels often or uses a particular function will find it irritating to use and might spoil the touchpad more easily compared to a button. Industrial Designer agreed with User Interface.
"Marketing: I will just raise another point while it occurs to me it kind of applies to both our designers here so I am not sure how it would fit in If we flip open now you know how you have got some mirrors in nightclubs that are mirrors when you turn to them and you turn away and it gives like an advertising display you seen those ? And they kind of respond to the turn of your body Is it possible that when we open our fliptop she will it is a little compact mirror and when you press a button it then goes onto the phone display th the remote control display thing 
Project Manager: We are marketing to guys as much as we are to women 
Marketing: They do not look at themselves ? Just a thought 
Project Manager: Well it is a remote control you were sitting watching TV are you going to want to sort of open it and say oh shit I should go and have a shower and do my hair before I put the T 
Marketing: I know what you mean it is with us using the ideas for a mobile ph it is with us using the ideas for mobile phones I kind of got sidetracked onto that I think trying to think of other features we can build in that would not cost too much but maybe we will leave that one on the side 
Industrial Designer: I mean you can you could do it you could have a because if you if you just put the full charge through an LCD display it will completely blank it out but I do not know if you could get any mirror effect on it I am not sure about 
Marketing: Oh I think forget about the mirror that was just a very quick passing thought","Project Manager believed that it would not appeal to men as they were unlikely to use it when watching television. Marketing responded by leaving this idea on the side, and Industrial Designer and Project Manager agreed. In the end, Marketing gave up on the idea."
"Industrial Designer: this is all about the design of the actual components and the availability of the components we have in stock at the moment first the Into the method The the main idea of the whole thing is just so you sh you just press buttons and it should activate things on the TV and we discussed last meeting that it should be easy to find also in this study I have looked into the availability of some of the materials because some of the things that we looked at last time are not un unfortunately are not available findings I have got my nice little picture there This is the chip called the TA double one eight three five which is what is used in pretty much every remote control because it sends out standard signals based on your input and it is pretty much used for all all TV remotes at the moment and then we we are loo looking into battery options There is actually no rechargeable option available so we I saw the the standard double A and triple A which we thought were a bit bit too bulky at the moment dynamo charging I thought that that might be a bit silly to be to be honest 
Project Manager: Wa can you explain that ? 
Industrial Designer: people will not it is it is basically like windup radio So you wind up your remote control before you use it 
Project Manager: How what kind of how l long can you get out of that I mean can you pick it up and then wind it for two minutes and then that is it for the night ? Or 
Industrial Designer: You oh I presu you would not have to wind it for very long but I do not I do not think it is really sort of necessary when you th you think of the next two options like the the solar charging because most people have the light on in the room anyway so they could get when when you got TV 
Project Manager: That does not count though does it ? 
Marketing: Does does light charge as as sunlight does ? 
Project Manager: I thought it was UV like 
Industrial Designer: Is it ? Alright i 
User Interface: Yep Regarding those sizes which one you think will be light because we we have to take into consideration size also so maybe a standard triple A might take lesser space or and dynamo might take more space 
Industrial Designer: it would the d the dynamo would take more space because you actually need a physical sort of handle to wind up 
Project Manager: I am pretty sure that solar is from the sun I do not think it counts electric lights no but I mean not many you do not want to limit your market I mean people who live in basement flats there is not that many people but there are people 
Marketing: different parts of the world too if we are if we are marketing internationally 
Industrial Designer: and most people most people also watch TV in the in the night anyway 
Project Manager: Mm but then it would be charging through the day I think the point is that it charges through the day and then you have got it charged for the evening 
Industrial Designer: But I I think I think the the next ones the best anyway The the kinetic charging which is like you get it in r you get it in wrist watches and you d you do not even notice it I mean the amount the amount of probably moving around you would be doing all the time would would charge it up I do not think you would ever need to actually physically start shaking it up to make it work 
User Interface: And are these like what are the life of the kinetic battery it like it runs for long time ? 
Industrial Designer: it is it charges into some form of it is a smaller cell which it charges into and the si the size sort of a watch a watch battery because they use them quite frequently in watches And that will that would l would last for well I do I d I am not entirely sure how long it would last but I have never seen one run out 
Project Manager: But then if you think about a watch it is on your wrist so it is on your whole bod it is on your body the whole time so you are walking around you are doing things it is moving a lot of the time If you would I mean you switch the TV on then you put it on the side then you pick it up to change it and then you put it on the side Is it really going to be enough ? 
Industrial Designer: I I think it is because if you think about it the watch although it is only a tiny amount it is it is it is always moving for the whole day and they do not run out over night when you leave them on the side And th for the same the same reason you are only using it for a v incredibly short amount of time just to send the signal and then you are finished with it 
Project Manager: So it is not the draw on it is not 
Industrial Designer: no no I do I do not think the the draw on it would be 
Marketing: Could I just ask referring back to solar charging is that compatible with standard batteries ? I mean could people put standard batteries in but with a s you know they could leave it in the sunlight for solar charging 
Industrial Designer: Ye I think I th g y you could have a dual power thing 
Marketing: or the two things not compatible ? 
Project Manager: Like a dual kind of 
Industrial Designer: but the the thing with the solar cells is you would need to put them on the case and they because if you lie on a calculator they they are qui they are quite big and they all they all look i identical 
Marketing: Mm So that affects the exterior design 
User Interface: Solar would be slightly expensives 
Project Manager: Expensive as well What kind of price are we looking at for 
Industrial Designer: They are they are expensive they do not 
User Interface: It is twelve point f 
Project Manager: I presume the normal batteries are the cheapest ? 
Industrial Designer: the normal batteries would be the cheapest I would presume then it would actually be the the solar charging ones but the It is i I think they are not very resistant to dropping because if you drop stuff if you if you have y 
Project Manager: Well they are not designed 
Industrial Designer: the size you would need to charge a remote would not be that big but I mean if remotes always get thrown around and stuff so Y I think practically I mean calculators you do not really throw around a lot whereas remotes you do 
Project Manager: You do get a bit of wear but do not calculators have a battery in them as well ? 
Industrial Designer: they do they they have got dual things but they are the batteries are smaller I think 
User Interface: sorry W w which one would last the longest because we do not want customers to be like you know charging like a mobile phone every day so we have to s look at the life also 
Industrial Designer: so the the the s if you if you had something du using the standard batteries and the solar charging I do not think you would I think the it would d well you know how long the standard double As would last in or triple As would last 
Marketing: It would just detract from the attractiveness of the of the whole feature 
Industrial Designer: I think i I think it would 
Marketing: i it is not going to add anything 
Project Manager: can we add in an attachment to closing feature ? Can we think about that ? Because if we are doing the kinetic thing and it is 
Marketing: Should not we do some market research on that first before we add it in because I I personally 
Project Manager: Well add it in to think about because where am I ? If it is the kinetic thing and it is small and it is portable and it is a different shape and the kinetic is something people do not do kind of we are doing something original and different but if you wore it if it is something you could just clip on your pocket then you would have that less you you would not lose it so much But then maybe that is looking at someone who is just sitting on their own rather than the eternal battle for control of the controls 
Marketing: It is not something that is come up in any of our focus groups and market research it is not a thing that people are looking for when we threw it open to the field But it is something to put on the side to think about maybe 
Industrial Designer: well I will move on my second part of my findings the mo most current remotes use this silicone PCB board which pr printed circuit board which basically has these contacts that are really close together and then when you press down on the rubber button it will connect the circuit and each each switch is connected to two different legs on the chip and so sends a different message and that then gets translated by the chip into a code and then it is fired out of this LED in the sequence of l on and off bursts 
Project Manager: What kind of things do we have to consider there ? Can we what kind of size does it come in varying sizes or is it just one size and we would have to fit the design of 
Industrial Designer: Well well this the thi the thing about is they they can be as big or as small as you want them to be because you can you can print circuit board like that that it is it is simply spaced like that so you can have fit the n the size of the nine buttons in If you if you see how thin the tracks are you could you could s you could put them virtually right next to each other and have a much smaller switch on each one if you if you wanted to but the there is an option to do to do it like that or you could have some sort of array of switches which I will speak about in the next bit so that And then to so to conserve battery life the remote should be in a standby mode no while not being used Now what I was thinking about that was because sometimes when y when you have these things they have got little lights on behind the buttons so you can see what all the buttons are like on a mobile phone they do it more often than on a than on a TV remote but you could you could have lights behind the buttons and after like five or ten seconds of not being used I would have that turned off if we decided to go for buttons that could light up the case material I have a been sent what the factory can actually give us the there is the plastic which I think we were going to go for anyway as the main case case housing and the the main problems with the well you could go for wood but I think it would be a bit impractical Titanium very expensive just to process which to make it is expensive and rubber well you are saying that people like this spongy feel this year so perhaps some something made of rubber but I was thinking more of the buttons because the buttons which they have they have said that they have they have put across are what is used in some stress ball manufacture and it is meant to be anti RSI I am no I am not sure how that would work because surely your fingers would still be moving over the short distances but that is what they said the problem with the casing is that there is quite there is quite a few design restrictions that they have got on the shape of the case If you go for titanium they can only do a standard box shape whereas if you come to plastic they can they can be a little more they can they can do sort of curved shapes But whether whether or not because we would have it in two separate units 
User Interface: and second question is like a mobile you can change the cover you call it a skin or whatever So in this case if you are looking at like a customer can change the colour like from green parrot green to chilli red or something like that So is that feature available in like titanium or it is like only specific to plastic or 
Industrial Designer: in in titanium I do not I do not think it would be available at all really the ju just it w well you could make it available in the titanium it was just it would be so expensive to buy a new case for it because of the expense of how much titanium is is it is light and strong but I think it should be left for aircraft design rather than for for a remote 
Marketing: It does mark quite easily too if you let it fall I have got a mobile phone myself which is titanium and it does mark very easily if you drop it I was just wondering if we make the basic mould out of plastic but have like a rubber cover that goes over that would give the spongy feel that also allows us to kind of have different fasciae for the phone 
Industrial Designer: And you can peel them off 
Project Manager: So instead of the fascia that comes off being plastic the fascia that comes off would be the rubber 
Marketing: Like a rubber sleeve almost 
Project Manager: like those pens that you get with the grip that you can you can pull that off 
User Interface: That could be a good idea It could it would be comfortable to hold on also 
Marketing: Very cheap way of changing the look of it and people can just buy a new one if they want to 
Project Manager: Well that is been really popular with mobile phones so I do not see why not 
Industrial Designer: just just going back to the interface designs with the buttons the I kno we were planning to do some sort of touch screen Now what I was saying before about instead of having you could have just a bare PCB circuit board and I am sure you could probably get it in different colours and so just by touching it with your finger it would make the connection over if you had them close enough that would be one option the second option th they offer rubber buttons but I thought that an LCD type of screen because one they are incredibly thin and do not take up much space two they you can have them in a sort of array and you can arrange the buttons on the screen in a sort of set thing and you could have them like a touch 
User Interface: Sorry I did not get the last part you are talking of Just what you said I I did not get the meaning of it completely you are saying like 
Industrial Designer: Oh on the on the LCD screen you could becau you could fit it the problem with it basically is that it is flat and so you can not do lots of curve curved things with it but you can you would not have with the LCD you would have the wires coming off you would not have that with the with the LCD you would only have that with the printed circuit board With W also with the 
Marketing: I do not s sorry to interrupt I do not see why the curved thing is a problem if we for example had a she will once we open that 
Project Manager: Oh it would be flat inside 
Industrial Designer: You could have a flat screen inside 
Marketing: so it would be f 
Industrial Designer: but I am just wondering whether we want an LCD screen inside 
Marketing: Have I misunderstood you ? 
Industrial Designer: It would not be like full colour it would just be black and white but there would be touch touch buttons so you would not be pressing down on them w or we could have rubber buttons which are made of this material which is antiRSI 
Project Manager: I think it would be good to have a contrast between if the whole thing is going to be this rubber thing it would be good to open it up and see something quite fancy looking inside Now how would you distinguish if you had it bare how would you distinguish where you had to press I mean 
Industrial Designer: I had not I had not really thought of that to be honest 
Marketing: I just had another idea I do not know if it helps with that but just to do with the RSI Is it possible just as an option when we open it up people can use their fingers to press the button or we have inside like a small pointer thing when people want to 
Industrial Designer: you could you could have some sort of stylus that you could pull out 
Project Manager: Like one of the palm pop thing 
Industrial Designer: but I I think they could get a bit easily lost 
User Interface: Absolutely f for somebody who very often if he would 
Project Manager: It would have to be attached 
Marketing: They are easy to replace as well cheap 
User Interface: a person who switches channels very often or does use a particular function very often will find it very irritating to use a and he might spoil the touchpad very fast compared to a button like if you keep punching with an pointer or whatever 
Marketing: just a thought they would not actually need one and they could use anything they have got could not they ? A pencil or a pen so they would not really need a 
Project Manager: we will talk about that so if you finish your and we will come back to that 
Industrial Designer: that that is the end of m my 
User Interface: And just one small question before like you are regarding the circuit since we are hav having a fliptop we can customise the two circuits for different type of buttons like we are keeping the standard buttons on the top and the more complex buttons under this thing so we can divide the circuit like you know 
Industrial Designer: that that would be fairly simple I mean you would you would actually have two separate you would have two separate circuit boards but they would be joined by wires or like some cabling between them because in the in the actual flip bit you would have some linking 
Marketing: I will just raise another point while it occurs to me it kind of applies to both our designers here so I am not sure how it would fit in If we flip open now you know how you have got some mirrors in nightclubs that are mirrors when you turn to them and you turn away and it gives like an advertising display you seen those ? And they kind of respond to the turn of your body Is it possible that when we open our fliptop she will it is a little compact mirror and when you press a button it then goes onto the phone display th the remote control display thing 
Project Manager: We are marketing to guys as much as we are to women 
Marketing: They do not look at themselves ? Just a thought 
Project Manager: Well it is a remote control you were sitting watching TV are you going to want to sort of open it and say oh shit I should go and have a shower and do my hair before I put the T 
Marketing: I know what you mean it is with us using the ideas for a mobile ph it is with us using the ideas for mobile phones I kind of got sidetracked onto that I think trying to think of other features we can build in that would not cost too much but maybe we will leave that one on the side 
Industrial Designer: I mean you can you could do it you could have a because if you if you just put the full charge through an LCD display it will completely blank it out but I do not know if you could get any mirror effect on it I am not sure about 
Marketing: Oh I think forget about the mirror that was just a very quick passing thought",The chip TA11835 and PCB board will be used in the device. The use of kinetic charging was agreed by the team with a standby mode to save battery. The case of the device would be in plastic and would have a changeable rubber cover. LCD screens will be adopted. The idea of adding a stylus or a mirror to the device was rejected.
"User Interface: would like to share something which I did here First thing is basically on design we just took the input from the previous meeting especially from the marketing and industrial design to check on the customer needs and feasibility Second is we checked into competitors the picture here shows one of the standard models offered by competitors here So y you generally see there is not much of variety and like marketing team said people need trendy they are bored of black and white So you generally see rectangular shape very monotonous kind of designs here And second thing is there is too much of confusion here No particular remote is standard Like some some people have a Here you see this ? This is on a I I I found th that only common feature is the ch channel control and volume control rest other buttons they are in a very disorganized and they are not consistent th with other models and all and second as already discussed with William we are going to have m maybe a G GUI interface in the f in the middle of the fliptop and g graphic user interface 
Marketing: Sorry what does that stand for ? 
User Interface: basically which is what we d do in computer have icons or touch pad or whatever 
Industrial Designer: If you if if you have like buttons that appear on the screen in this LCD screen 
User Interface: Like you have on a l icons or something y you have is a good example of GUI graphic user interface So basically not point or click Press any particular device he just has to click on that particular icon to simplify And on the top m repetitive buttons which are like volume or channel changing and all could be on the pointing device that means the use of button So he need not use a pointer to keep changing the channel if a person is frequent surfer So we are having a combination of boards so f on the s simpler board on the top we have this button rubber buttons to keep frequently changing the channels 
Project Manager: Can we swap that round so th that the ones that we use all the time are on the bottom part ? Because if you are thinking about holding it you would be using your thumbs to press just like a mobile phone 
Marketing: No you would hold it you do not if you flip it open then you would be Would not you ? Is not that the idea ? You us if we just use the she will as an example again you open that you have got your LCD display there and you have got the buttons there so you are holding it in the palm of your hand 
Project Manager: That is what I was just saying 
Industrial Designer: but you can do it with your thumb li 
Project Manager: and then have the and then have the LCD at the top and then be able to touch that for the other controls 
User Interface: and you mean to the 
Project Manager: so have the the volume and the programme things like that 
User Interface: So the findings are too many cluttered buttons Repetition of certain but buttons which I already explained example the volume and channel control buttons All are confusing and in inconsistent we had a latest finding of voice recognition there was a mail which mentions that our division has developed a new speech recognition s feature We have to check into the for financial f feasibility whether we can incorporate it this at a low cost but for like we had g s response from the customers that they would like to have the feature of finding it So it could be like where is the remote and the remote answers I am here Some kind of thing or it gives a b bleep sound or some kind of sound and if this can be incorporated this would be more you can say trendy also ? And technologically innovative also So we we can check into the financial feasibility of incorporating this My personal preferences would be like as already marketing department they want something to do with fruit so I would not say the design should be like a fruit but we can take inspiration from fruit colours like the vibrant colours red chilli tomato red or whatever and second thing is cer certain standard buttons we should have like for example i if you see the previous slide I think most of the users would now be well acquainted with this cer central pattern here so we we we would not change h that particular pattern because i this is the most consistent thing in all remote controls 
Project Manager: I can not see that is that play and stop and things ? 
User Interface: This is central one the one you 
Project Manager: Or is that volume and channel ? 
User Interface: volume and channel So keep that m that standardised because that is the most common feature across all models if you look at all the models it is here This and voice recognition 
Project Manager: Right I am not sure how long we have got left but we need to make a decision about the things we have discussed So we agree on Do we agree on the battery ? that means that there is no function for li the port you know that it sits in then pressing the button then having so we could incorporate voice recognition for the finding it It is a bi i it is like a g it is a gadget it is a 
Industrial Designer: I mean if it is it is qui it is quite a cool feature to have and also if they have got it if they have got these parts already in stock then it will not be cheap to remanufacture them","Mostly black and white colours, the normal ones are monotonous without consistency between models, and the buttons are very disorganized. The new remote will have a graphic user interface in the middle of the flip top and certain standard buttons with vibrant fruit colours. A newly developed speech recognition feature can be incorporated in the device and the idea was endorsed by customers. User Interface gave an example of using the feature - locating the remote. The idea was well-received by the team."
"Industrial Designer: or it will be cheap sorry to remanufacture them So do you reckon that is a good idea that where is the remote I am here thing ? I think that would be quite fun 
Project Manager: I think the only pitfall that we would have would be how much it is going to cost if that means we have to cut down somewhere else but I think pretty much we have used cheap relatively cheap and simple things 
Industrial Designer: to s th well it is it is not as expensive as it would be if it was full colour because if we have just got a black and white one I mean they use them in calculators so 
User Interface: Maybe we could start with the black and white That that way we could upgrade later","Industrial Designer said that it would be cheaper to re-manufacture if these parts were already in stock. Project Manager pointed out that the other materials used were relatively cheap and simple. Though the LCD would be expensive, it would be cheaper with black and white than full colour so User Interface suggested that they could start off with black and white and upgrade later."
"Industrial Designer: Yes I have some technical issues which I would like to present to you before we start the discussion because there might be some ? first about my role role of the Industrial Designer I would like to think about the implementation of of things and the technical possibilities and impossibilities So if someone of you comes up with ideas I will try to translate them in technical functions but there might be some impossibilities So that is one I also will propose some some implementations for that but well these are quite the same Sorry about that and I also will remind people of some new technical possibilities which are available and which might be interesting to implement in our product I have some initial ideas about some things which are maybe nice to take with you in the upcoming discussion One thing about interopera operability I think a modern remote control should control a device diverse subset of equipment for instance DVD players cell phones video and audio equipment So one re one remote control for all your equipment 
User Interface: And for a cell phone ? 
Industrial Designer: Well there should be some interoperabi interoperability between them","Industrial Designer proposed that a modern remote control should control a diverse subset of equipment. User Interface agreed and revealed that the function of the remote control is to change the state of the TV, which could be realized by pressing the button."
"User Interface: Well I had a few things in mind well the interoperability just like Sebastian said the remote should work on different TVs or even different what is it devices ? so i i I think it is a universal remote control for customers to buy just new in a store 
Industrial Designer: Yes I think it should be something like that 
User Interface: It is not for for for Philips or whatever to buy our remote for their own product 
Project Manager: so we are we are going business to consumer not we are we are it is not a 
User Interface: I do I do not know that It is no I have do not have the information for it 
Industrial Designer: We are not developing this product for a specific vendor are we ? we are just developing this product and we want to sell it to a very broad public so it should fit to every device 
Project Manager: Ruud y do you agree ? 
Marketing: I think I think they are right 
User Interface: Well the techni fu technical function what you said is just by pressing the button you should change the state of the TV That is just the basic f technical function So that was my really my part for this session 
Project Manager: So is that ease of use or is that more like 
User Interface: Well that is just the fu the technical function is pure what should the remote control do wh what is his task as an as an device It just should change the TVs state So that is it but furthermore 
Industrial Designer: And you you see the buttons as a as a means of doing this ? Or are there any o other controls ? 
User Interface: or maybe you want a touchscreen or 
Industrial Designer: Are there only any other cont Well","User Interface agreed with Industrial Designer and supposed that the remote control could be interoperable. That is to say, it could be a universal remote control that fits every device. He also revealed that the function of the remote control was to change the state of the TV and this could be realized by pressing the button."
"Industrial Designer: Yes I have some technical issues which I would like to present to you before we start the discussion because there might be some ? first about my role role of the Industrial Designer I would like to think about the implementation of of things and the technical possibilities and impossibilities So if someone of you comes up with ideas I will try to translate them in technical functions but there might be some impossibilities So that is one I also will propose some some implementations for that but well these are quite the same Sorry about that and I also will remind people of some new technical possibilities which are available and which might be interesting to implement in our product I have some initial ideas about some things which are maybe nice to take with you in the upcoming discussion One thing about interopera operability I think a modern remote control should control a device diverse subset of equipment for instance DVD players cell phones video and audio equipment So one re one remote control for all your equipment 
User Interface: And for a cell phone ? 
Industrial Designer: Well there should be some interoperabi interoperability between them","Industrial Designer believed that a modern remote control should control a diverse subset of equipment. That means, one remote control should control one or more pieces of equipment."
"Industrial Designer: I think it could come in handy We should discuss that and we should think about the way how these things should communicate with each other We are not living in the nineteen eighties anymore so infrared is not is not really hot technical stuff anymore But you should think about the things like Bluetooth 
User Interface: But but the infrared it is well a little bit oldfashioned if you would call it like that But all the TVs are equipped with infrared so 
Industrial Designer: But it is costeffective Yes Mmhmm Well not all not all 
User Interface: y you you can Most of them 
Industrial Designer: So that is the point 
User Interface: Or you shou sh use a you should equip infrared and Bluetooth together in one remote 
Industrial Designer: Maybe but that is something we should discuss and about every everybody should think about it So that is just my role I will just give you everybody some technical input and I think now the time is to have a little discussion about what the product should be and how it should look but take these things into account when you start the discussion","Industrial Designer pointed out that infrared connection is old-fashioned so they should choose a novel one, such as Bluetooth. Project Manager added that the device should be rechargeable and not consume too much power."
"Industrial Designer: I think it could come in handy We should discuss that and we should think about the way how these things should communicate with each other We are not living in the nineteen eighties anymore so infrared is not is not really hot technical stuff anymore But you should think about the things like Bluetooth 
User Interface: But but the infrared it is well a little bit oldfashioned if you would call it like that But all the TVs are equipped with infrared so 
Industrial Designer: But it is costeffective Yes Mmhmm Well not all not all 
User Interface: y you you can Most of them 
Industrial Designer: So that is the point 
User Interface: Or you shou sh use a you should equip infrared and Bluetooth together in one remote 
Industrial Designer: Maybe but that is something we should discuss and about every everybody should think about it So that is just my role I will just give you everybody some technical input and I think now the time is to have a little discussion about what the product should be and how it should look but take these things into account when you start the discussion",Industrial Designer proposed to change the way how the remote control and the TV communicate with each other as the infrared connection was not hot technical and suggested using Bluetooth.
"Project Manager: I ha I have one point f which which comes in mind now d I think the device should either be rechargeable very easily or it should not consume too much power Because it is very annoying if you need to change the batteries every s every other week So maybe we could for example only light the buttons that are applicable at that moment or I do not know it is that is more Sebastians 
User Interface: But then Bluetooth might be problem 
Industrial Designer: It is use a lot of 
User Interface: I know it from the cell phone 
Industrial Designer: Well cell phones have integrated Bluetooth also and well it is it seems to work quite So technically it will be possible 
User Interface: But you can not you can not use Bluetooth all the time twenty four hours a day","Project Manager believed that remote control should not consume too much power. Therefore, as the cellphone would consume power very quickly when the Bluetooth was on, User Interface was concerned that it might be a problem."